"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dced4c84447c4861a208e280e9ccd1a1\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 3 AUGUST 2021\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002219aa4038883142d680896972d8455f6e\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 3 AUGUST 2021\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ab218638d7d1432fb871bc6f36670b96\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d77a876fe74244e59a2566ff4a964b69\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00222dfe9b0484804b46a8f401efcb5c7028\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222dfe9b0484804b46a8f401efcb5c7028\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia or\u0101na kotou katoatoa i te aroa ma\u2019ata o te Atua. Taki nei au ia tatou i tetai pure no tatou katoatoa. Te Atua mana, te \u2018akameitaki atu nei matou i\u0101koe no te t\u0101kinga meitaki ta\u2019au i riringi mai ki runga ia matou. Te \u2018akaruke nei matou i to matou tu tangata. Te \u2018akam\u0101\u2019ara nei matou i te Ariki Vaine, e te pure nei matou kia arataki koe i ta matou \u2018uri\u2019uri\u2019anga manako, kia rave matou i ta matou \u2018anga\u2019anga i roto i teia ngutu\u2019are, na roto i te pakari, te tuatua tika, e te \u2018\u0101kono\u2019anga meitaki no te ao, e to matou basileia N\u016Btir\u0113ni, na roto i te ingoa o Iesu Mesia, \u2018\u0100mene.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cc81836635c940c290c539070d670fe0\u0022\u003EMinisterial Statements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002232b7de0fcb264762906f529c4e2c2959\u0022\u003ECOVID-19\u2014Australian Travel Bubble Pause\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7de409f2bd54861995f3157e1034773\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7de409f2bd54861995f3157e1034773\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister for COVID-19 Response):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I wish to make a ministerial statement relating to the New Zealand Government\u2019s decision to suspend quarantine-free travel with Australia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EOn 22 July, Cabinet met and agreed that the quarantine-free travel from all Australian states and territories would be suspended, based on the Director-General of Health\u2019s concern around increased transmissibility of the Delta variant and continued movement of positive cases in the community in New South Wales. Quarantine-free travel with Australia commenced on 19 April, on the basis that travellers from both countries did not have, or were very unlikely to have, COVID-19 spreading through communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand Government adopted a flexible approach of continue and pause with each individual state to give them time to get any COVID-19 infection in their community under control as part of our elimination strategy approach at our border. When we set up the traffic light system for COVID-19, it was based on what we knew at the time about variants that were present and how it was moving through the countries and communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EIn the middle of June, the first case of the Bondi cluster was reported in New South Wales. By the middle of July, not only had New Zealand paused quarantine-free travel with New South Wales, but also with Victoria, and then South Australia, due to the risks of COVID-19 in those communities. The Delta variant has materially changed the risk profile of COVID-19. We\u2019ve seen that contact tracing alone is unable to get ahead of this variant, and that restrictions are absolutely necessary to stamp it out where it emerges.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EIn the view of our health officials, there is now a greater risk from the Delta variant than there was when we opened quarantine-free travel with Australia. It\u2019s the New Zealand Government\u2019s duty to keep New Zealanders safe from COVID-19. We continue to believe that the strongest health response is also the strongest economic response. So we made the decision to suspend quarantine-free travel, with a grace period of a week, for New Zealand citizens and those ordinarily resident in New Zealand to return from Australia, with the bubble officially closed for green flights from 11.59 p.m. New Zealand time on Friday, 30 July.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EJust as we have our alert level settings for managing cases in New Zealand, we also have a framework for managing cases in Australia through the continue, pause, and suspend system. Extra flights have been put on where required\u2014for example, from Brisbane and from Melbourne\u2014and extra capacity was opened up on flights from Perth as people cancelled their existing bookings. Managed return flights will continue as planned from New South Wales, with travellers from that state required to spend 14 days in managed isolation in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EMore than 1,500 rooms in managed isolation have been made available for the first two phases of managed return from New South Wales, and they have accommodated an estimated 2,100 people, including more than 300 urgent and exceptional cases. Last week, the Government confirmed that an additional 500 rooms will be allocated from contingency between 9 and 22 August for those returning from New South Wales. The registration of interest process has been established for these rooms, using a form on the Unite against COVID-19 travel website, which is being used to prioritise those bookings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EWe remain committed to the trans-Tasman bubble, but it is paramount that it operates in a safe manner. Since we set up quarantine-free travel with Australia back in April, more than 200,000 people have flown between our two countries. In the lead-up to reviewing the suspension with Australia, Ministers will need to be certain that the outbreak with New South Wales and within wider Australia is contained, that any remaining cases are generally linked, and that we don\u2019t see a large number of cases in the community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EOur team of 5 million here in New Zealand has worked hard to put us in a strong position, both health-wise and economically, and we do not want to put these hard-won gains at risk. We\u2019ll continue to adapt, improve, and learn in the Government\u2019s response to COVID-19 as we need to, to meet the challenges presented by new variants and to keep New Zealand safe. Globally, we\u2019re seeing the consequences of not doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022a582e572550e4a08b37db85542c56ea9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a582e572550e4a08b37db85542c56ea9\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Thank you to the Minister for COVID-19 Response for the statement and the update. It goes without saying that we in the National Party extend our sympathies to New South Wales on the outbreak of Delta in that state\u2014I note another 199 cases today. Also, we note that we are supportive in the National Party of the trans-Tasman bubble generally, obviously. We supported its opening, and we hope that we can return to a situation where there is some quarantine-free travel, but we understand the need for the closure in the circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI have a few questions for the Minister about what he\u2019s just said. New South Wales is obviously the area of the greatest concern, with quarantine-free travel closed since June. Does the Minister have a number of how many New Zealanders are currently stuck, for want of a better word, in New South Wales and are looking to return?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022d1fca63b7b974bf7bcc120fa8089796a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d1fca63b7b974bf7bcc120fa8089796a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister for COVID-19 Response):\u003C/span\u003E I do have an idea of the first part of the question but perhaps not so much the second part of the question, which is the number of people who have left New Zealand and gone to New South Wales and have not come back to New Zealand. That sits at around 4,623. In terms of a breakdown of that, about 2,900 of those are New Zealand citizens, about 320 New Zealand residents, about 460 Australian citizens, and about 923 are temporary visa holders. So that doesn\u2019t necessarily give us an indication of whether they\u2019ve gone one way and intend to come back, but it gives us a bit of an idea of who\u2019s there who was here when the bubble first opened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8e25141eeb346d6bb7a479f820e43e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8e25141eeb346d6bb7a479f820e43e4\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E Just in relation to the registration of interest process for rooms in managed isolation and quarantine (MIQ), does the Minister have a number as to how many people have registered through that process so far and how many the Government expect to register?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f688912cacdc4a63bc874581eb247f2c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f688912cacdc4a63bc874581eb247f2c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister for COVID-19 Response):\u003C/span\u003E The registration of interest process itself, I think, has closed in the last few minutes; I think it was closing mid-afternoon or early afternoon today. I know that there had been, I think, from memory, just over a thousand registrations of interest. Some of those have already been filtered out as being not eligible. It\u2019s important to remember, though, that registrations of interest can cover more than one person but then one room can cover more than one person as well; so the correlation between rooms available and registrations of interest is an interesting one. So we do what we can to make sure that we\u2019re accommodating as many people as possible. We\u2019ve accommodated more people than we\u2019ve had rooms available, because, if you get a family, they only require one room, for example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u002261b763c9b44848f4911fd381d63890a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261b763c9b44848f4911fd381d63890a4\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E Will the announcement of the extra 500 rooms from the contingency get everyone back in the next few weeks who wants to come home, or are there going to be people, potentially, who can\u2019t come back?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00228157a49ffb9a4b53ae54b6d626cd8f3b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228157a49ffb9a4b53ae54b6d626cd8f3b\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister for COVID-19 Response):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m optimistic that by the end of August, we can get New Zealanders back who meet the criteria to get those urgent allocations. There will be some who want to come back who won\u2019t meet that criteria for urgent allocations, and so we\u2019ll keep providing extra rooms, but the first priority at this point is to get those people back who have an urgent need to get back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd371ddad6b04607865020bb22c04114\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd371ddad6b04607865020bb22c04114\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E Just in relation to the 500 extra contingency rooms, what will happen once they have, essentially, been exhausted on the New South Wales managed return flights? Is the Government intending to put those back into the general stock of managed isolation and quarantine rooms or could they potentially be put to bringing other classes of people back such as\u2014well, bringing the split migrant families to New Zealand, for example?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022e026d67d92c5429dba8528a2b7a52fb5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e026d67d92c5429dba8528a2b7a52fb5\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister for COVID-19 Response):\u003C/span\u003E We haven\u2019t made any final decisions about that. Part of that decision will depend on how long it\u2019s likely to be before the trans-Tasman bubble can re-open again; so we\u2019ve set an initial eight-week period for the suspension. If it looks like we\u2019re nearing the point where the trans-Tasman bubble is going to re-open, we will want to still keep a contingency for trans-Tasman. If it looks like there\u2019s going to be a period where we can free up those rooms and not have to have them in contingency, then we would look at what the demand profile for MIQ was at the time. We do know that there\u2019s a lot more demand for MIQ now from people who are currently eligible than there are rooms available, so that would certainly be one of the things that we would think about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00228c508eee388f47b8ae3935c36713d389\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c508eee388f47b8ae3935c36713d389\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E Just a couple of final questions in relation to the threshold for re-opening the bubble. I note the Minister said Ministers will need to be certain the outbreak in New South Wales and wider Australia is contained and also that remaining cases have to be generally linked. What does that mean in reality? Is the threshold for the reopening of the bubble zero cases across the whole of Australia, for example? Or, if it\u2019s not zero, what is a low number of cases? And will the Government approach it on a New Zealand to Australia level\u2014i.e., viewing Australia as a whole entity? Or will it take a state by state approach; reopening, for example, to Queensland\u2014to take Queensland, for example\u2014if they get down to very few cases, even while New South Wales may have a few more? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00228f778fa4d6c94b89935ac658784c4264\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f778fa4d6c94b89935ac658784c4264\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister for COVID-19 Response):\u003C/span\u003E I think, in answer to the last part of the question, generally we\u2019ve found state by state arrangements can work quite well. One of the concerns that we have around the situation within New South Wales at the moment is it is clear that that is leaking into other states. So one of the things that we would want to see is that if we were going to re-open on a state by state basis, there was a good, clear demarcation between states, where we weren\u2019t concerned that people could travel into those states and thereby travel to New Zealand from those states. So that is something that we would look for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EIt doesn\u2019t necessarily mean absolutely no cases in the community or no new cases, but it does mean that we\u2019d be looking to make sure that they don\u2019t have unlinked community transmission, which is what they\u2019re dealing with at the moment. They\u2019re getting cases popping up where they don\u2019t know how that person got it. Once they get back to a point where it\u2019s more predictable, which, through contact tracing, it is possible to get to that point\u2014once you get down to a low number of cases, it\u2019s possible that new cases pop up, but you knew who they were, they were in isolation already, and therefore the risk is low. We\u2019d certainly be wanting to get to at least that point before we\u2019d consider opening up again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u002236de690965834930bf3d357b48a1c61c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236de690965834930bf3d357b48a1c61c\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E And, just finally, when is the Government planning on reviewing the settings with Australia; and how often after that point if the first available opportunity looks like it probably won\u2019t be reopened?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u002213224f7a6eec4cbbbff1e9cf6c9aee9c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213224f7a6eec4cbbbff1e9cf6c9aee9c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister for COVID-19 Response):\u003C/span\u003E We\u2019ve said, with this suspension, that we\u2019ve set it for eight weeks. We\u2019ll keep it under review during that time, but I think, given what we\u2019re seeing in Australia\u2014particularly in New South Wales\u2014and given what we know from our own experience about how long it takes to turn that curve back down again, I think that eight-week initial benchmark was quite a realistic one. If things aren\u2019t under control in Australia\u2014or aren\u2019t going to get under control in Australia, particularly in New South Wales\u2014before that eight-week period is out, I think we would probably see signs of that with a reasonable period of time before the eight weeks marker comes up; so we\u2019d be able to foreshadow that at the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u00227ee58ddf5de54f1c94965b1271b44f0b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ee58ddf5de54f1c94965b1271b44f0b\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. We reiterate thanks to the Minister. The Green Party are very supportive of the suspension and of the approach that the Government has taken. It\u2019s really a clear reminder as cases are increasing worldwide, including in countries that have more extensive vaccination, that this pandemic is far from over and that the Delta variant and other new variants are a serious threat not only to non-vaccinated populations but even people who have received the vaccination. Of course, we\u2019re aware that this will be a blow to friends and family who want to maintain connections with their wh\u0101nau in Australia, but it\u2019s really in the best interests of both countries that there is certainty while there is this community spread. Even prior to this outbreak, there were a number of cancelled travel arrangements and people stuck in lockdowns in various states and cities, and so I think that having this certainty of at least eight weeks\u2019 suspension is really a good thing for businesses and family. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI just have one additional question about managed isolation and quarantine (MIQ). It\u2019s a broader issue. It\u2019s related to the difficulties that people are having registering spots in MIQ, be they coming from Australia or other countries, and if the Government is looking at changes or improvements to the MIQ booking system so it can\u2019t be gamed by bots and others and to ensure that people actually are able to book spots that are available in MIQ. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00226f62ef5e5113424bacb4f515a9aa7ed2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f62ef5e5113424bacb4f515a9aa7ed2\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister for COVID-19 Response):\u003C/span\u003E With regard to the overall booking system, yes, we do keep that under constant review. The MIAS booking system\u2014the managed isolation allocation system\u2014that we have in place at the moment served us very well where supply and demand were relatively evenly matched or where demand was lower than supply. Where we get to a position\u2014which we\u2019re at again now\u2014where there are far more people who want to come in than we have rooms available, it does create some inequities in terms of who\u2019s able to access those rooms. So I am looking at a range of alternatives there to make sure\u2014and that could be anything from a wait list system to a ballot system to a prioritised system. So we\u2019re looking at a range of options for what we might be able to do in that particular space, because I recognise that there are a lot of people that do want to come into New Zealand at the moment. So we\u2019re keeping that under constant review. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EIn terms of the bots, the feedback that I\u2019ve had is that people cannot secure a booking through a bot, but they have been able to identify when vouchers are being released and alert people to the fact that vouchers are being released, which gives some people, if you like, a head start to be able to access them. That\u2019s quite a difficult thing to be able to stop. So, therefore, one of the things I think that we will look to do, if we continue with the system as it is now, is make sure that we\u2019re foreshadowing when we\u2019re going to be releasing extra vouchers so that everyone gets a fair and equal opportunity at that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u00225f94fc44ab0e44be9b6403c7ae30e12e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f94fc44ab0e44be9b6403c7ae30e12e\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you, Mr Speaker. On behalf of ACT, I\u2019d like to reiterate what other members have said expressing our concern and condolences to our Anzac cousins across the Ditch and the way that they have had their way of life affected, and even some loss of life, due to this Delta variant. Prime Minister Morrison has described the Delta variant as a game-changer, and it certainly seems to have changed many of the parameters of COVID-19.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EIt seems that while we are enormously fortunate not to be in the place of the Australian states\u2014or at least many of those states\u2014right now, I think people will want to know what sort of a rethink our Government has had in light of the Delta strain and particularly, in relation to this ministerial statement, what sort of defences the New Zealand Government is putting in place to ensure that we don\u2019t, despite suspending the travel bubble, end up with COVID and the Delta strain of it entering New Zealand. So I wonder if I could just first ask the Minister what sort of advice he received around the risk taken by saying that the situation is grave enough to suspend the travel bubble, but also having a week\u2019s amnesty where people could return from Australia\u2014or at least some parts of Australia\u2014where Delta was circulating, or nearby to their location, with no apparent safeguards once they arrived in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022eecfe86c5a904a879f60797331507e99\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eecfe86c5a904a879f60797331507e99\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister for COVID-19 Response):\u003C/span\u003E We did put in place additional safeguards for people returning from Australia. One of the most obvious was that everybody coming back from Australia needed to have a negative COVID-19 test before they were able to come into the country. Some of those states in Australia, when we did that amnesty week, had no active cases in their community. So the risk was low, but the risk was growing. Subsequent events over the last week have demonstrated that that\u2019s the case. We have also put, for Victoria, where there was a slightly elevated risk at that point, a requirement that people need to self-isolate on return and get another negative test once they\u2019ve come back to New Zealand. So I think that there were appropriate risk mitigations in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EIn terms of the questions around the wider Delta variant, and the escalation of risk that comes from the Delta variant, that is undoubtedly true. It has changed the situation around COVID-19. We saw examples last year and early this year where contact tracing was able to contain COVID-19, both here and in Australia, in a way that the Delta variant draws into question whether those systems would be able to operate as effectively in the future if we saw a case making its way into the New Zealand community. So we would certainly draw on the lessons from that, and any future response that we may need to have here in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EOur managed isolation facilities are among the tightest in the world. That is not to say that there\u2019s no risk; there is absolutely risk there, and we do everything we can to drive that out and to stay vigilant. The work we have been doing around air ventilation systems, around staff training, around personal protective equipment, around vigorous monitoring, around vaccination of the border workforce\u2014around all of those things\u2014are all contributing to continuing to tighten up that system, but there is no such thing as no risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab675483be2047b09a93744b022ba4f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab675483be2047b09a93744b022ba4f6\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E In light of our managed isolation system\u2014and the Minister said it\u2019s one of the tightest, although the Delta variant is changing the parameters of the virus\u2014I wonder what advice he\u2019s had about the effects of the Delta variant on the effectiveness of vaccination with respect to infection and transmission. Besides its effect on the usefulness of vaccination, the incubation time\u2014in other words, the amount of time it takes for the Delta variant to incubate and become testable\u2014what sort of advice has the Minister had on whether or not the current managed isolation and quarantine settings of having a wall of vaccination and testing three times in two weeks is adequate given the changed parameters he\u2019s just talked about?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022b367056e8b9c4e548fb389ff86d9df6c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b367056e8b9c4e548fb389ff86d9df6c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister for COVID-19 Response): \u003C/span\u003EIn terms of the overall effectiveness of vaccines, it\u2019s still early days yet, but what we\u2019re seeing around the world is that vaccination is still very effective against the Delta variant, although it could be slightly less effective than it is against some of the earlier variants of the virus. It still significantly reduces the chances of someone getting COVID-19, spreading COVID-19, and COVID-19 having a serious health effect on them, but it is, as I said, early days yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EIn terms of our managed isolation and quarantine (MIQ) facilities, one of the things we will look at is where we do the testing. So we know Delta does seem to move faster, does seem to spread faster. We already, at the beginning of the year, as a result of some of the new variants we were seeing, introduced a day zero test for everyone coming into the country as a result of the fact that we know new variants are more transmissible and are moving faster. So we have already put that day zero test in. That hasn\u2019t applied to people coming from Australia until recently. We\u2019re looking at that. There\u2019s another question about\u2014day three is still a good time\u2014whether the gap between day three and day 12 is too big a gap, whether there needs to be something in the middle. We will look at that, and that will include looking at whether other testing technologies could be used to increase the frequency of testing for people in MIQ. Haven\u2019t made decisions on those yet, but they\u2019re certainly being actively looked at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022371cdabc97c4418aac7401d54a9dc6fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022371cdabc97c4418aac7401d54a9dc6fe\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E How would the Delta variant change the Government\u2019s response to an outbreak, in light of his comments that he\u2019s just made about the possible inadequacy of contact tracing with a faster spreading variant? Does the Government have any new policy changes in respect to how it would respond to an outbreak in light of the Delta variant?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u002255f813ba40d240e893c743a362bc9b5f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255f813ba40d240e893c743a362bc9b5f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister for COVID-19 Response):\u003C/span\u003E It would very much depend on the facts of each individual case. In every individual case that we\u2019ve seen regarding COVID-19, since we started this process 18 months ago, every case has been different and every case has required a slightly different response. So I think some of the things that we would look to are: the nature of the contact\u2014was the source of the person contracting the virus known? Those are all things that we\u2019ve always looked at previously, but the answer to some of those questions might dictate a slightly different response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2b55a433ce145db8229ee3a7789c886\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2b55a433ce145db8229ee3a7789c886\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Just finally, Australia, for the first year that we had MIQ, I recall, provided about 40 percent of all isolating passengers inbound. The Australian travel bubble did one thing: it freed up an enormous amount of MIQ space, and, for a short time, it seemed that the demand had been met and that people were relatively content with their ability to get into the country. Over the last two months, MPs have had an avalanche of complaints from people who say that MIQ is often booked as far away as November. And, as the Minister just said, once upon a time, supply and demand would match; now they\u2019re clearly not, hence the problems with bots and so on. With the Australian travel bubble suspended, there is only going to be much greater demand for MIQ spots on top of the fact that it is already booked up for months. Many people find themselves in desperate situations, humanitarian and economic, because they can\u2019t get through the border. Does the Government have any plans that it can tell us about to expand the level of MIQ space available?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022bef9a54f915348119cd15328598150c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bef9a54f915348119cd15328598150c7\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister for COVID-19 Response):\u003C/span\u003E I don\u2019t have anything to announce on that today, but I can give the member reassurance that, yes, we are looking at overall MIQ capacity; what the options might be to increase that. Physical buildings are not the only part of that particular jigsaw puzzle; in fact, they are probably the easier part of the puzzle to solve. The workforce continues to be a challenge there. We\u2019ve spread our Defence Force quite thinly across MIQ to help to run that, and we\u2019re reaching the outer limits of what we can do there in terms of calling on the Defence Force to help, given their other commitments that they also have to fulfil. We have stretched our health workforce quite thinly as well, both in terms of the work we are doing around testing MIQ vaccination and asking them to continue to do everything the health system would normally do, whilst still doing those other things; recognising that the COVID-19 response around the rest of the world has often resulted in their health system stopping doing a whole lot of things that our health system continues to do every day. I think we are all grateful that out health system continues to perform, but we have to recognise that it is very, very stretched and that those are the sorts of things that are constraints we have to work through; they are not all insurmountable constraints, but they do take time to work through when we want to expand our MIQ capacity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2adadd7813c4398974c0afd303d728d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2adadd7813c4398974c0afd303d728d\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Does the Minister have a date he can tell the House when he will announce changes to MIQ policy for all those people stuck at the border who are waiting for that kind of information?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u002230d2387280424090a7db9415aed5fdfe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002230d2387280424090a7db9415aed5fdfe\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister for COVID-19 Response):\u003C/span\u003E I think there are two things to that. One is around capacity. I don\u2019t have a particular date in mind about that. It will take as long as it takes, but I can give the member\u2014and, in fact, all those people who are waiting\u2014assurance that we are working as quickly as we can to get those answers. The other is around the process to allocate those rooms that we do currently have available, and we are working very actively to look at whether there are ways to introduce more fairness into that system. The system works very fairly, as I said, where there is more supply than demand. It does create inequities in the position that we are in at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u002270d98794167547548ec4a3b18c702a45\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270d98794167547548ec4a3b18c702a45\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te Paati M\u0101ori): \u003C/span\u003EE te P\u012Bka, otir\u0101 kia ora t\u0101tou e te Whare, t\u0113n\u0101 koe e te Minita, whakar\u0101huingia t\u014D t\u0101tou whenua i t\u0113nei r\u0101 ki Ahitereiria, engari he p\u0101tai k\u0113 w\u0101ku h\u0101ngai t\u014D ki a koe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E[Mr. Speaker, to the House, I acknowledge the Minister who restricted access to our country today from Australia, although I do have some questions that directly relate to you.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EOne of the key reasons why there is so much risk from trans-Tasman travel at this time is our low vaccination rates. Can the Minister confirm what the current vaccination rate is for M\u0101ori?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022bedd3bc7a4da4011b78e1912564d4d05\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bedd3bc7a4da4011b78e1912564d4d05\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister for COVID-19 Response):\u003C/span\u003E What I can confirm is that around 9 percent of the vaccination doses delivered so far have gone to M\u0101ori New Zealanders. In terms of the age cohorts eligible, M\u0101ori have uptaken the opportunity to get a vaccine at a higher rate than other, non-M\u0101ori, New Zealanders have, and I thank them for that. One of the terrible health statistics that we have in our country is that M\u0101ori don\u2019t live as long as non-M\u0101ori, and so as we\u2019ve been working our way down through the age cohorts, fewer M\u0101ori have been present in those older age bands. That is something that we should not be satisfied about as a country; it\u2019s something that we should be very concerned about. It is unacceptable that M\u0101ori don\u2019t live as long as non-M\u0101ori New Zealanders. But that has had an impact on our vaccination stats.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7567442f39b40a286369759d549b0d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7567442f39b40a286369759d549b0d8\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te Paati M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E The Government has already admitted that M\u0101ori are at most risk, so why haven\u2019t we dealt with the issues before now, to ensure a greater level of protection for M\u0101ori?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u002226dee12de3484eecb45fc660103980aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226dee12de3484eecb45fc660103980aa\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister for COVID-19 Response):\u003C/span\u003E We have been working very closely with M\u0101ori health providers, also with Pasifika health providers\u2014another community that is at risk. In our sequencing framework, we prioritised those communities most at risk, including South Auckland, because we knew that there were higher concentrations of M\u0101ori there who were going to be more at risk should COVID-19 come into the country, and actually were the most likely community to see that kind of incursion in the event that that had happened. So we have prioritised that. As I said, the statistics are encouraging, in that they would show that there isn\u2019t the level of hesitancy in M\u0101ori communities that some people have been claiming that there is. I\u2019m very heartened by that, but I have also been making it clear to the DHBs that we expect to see a good focus on equity in the ongoing roll-out of the vaccination.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u002226d0a44fa3b848b88337dbbe35a724ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226d0a44fa3b848b88337dbbe35a724ca\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te Paati M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Why aren\u2019t we seeing a higher vaccination rate for M\u0101ori in those age groups that you have mentioned, or Pasifika peoples, if we are most at risk when unvaccinated; and does the current vaccine protect us from the Delta variant?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf2e4b4060e749a7be68c80db8ade923\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf2e4b4060e749a7be68c80db8ade923\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister for COVID-19 Response):\u003C/span\u003E In answer to the last part of the question, in terms of protection from the Delta variant, yes it does protect us from the Delta variant. Vaccination protects us very well from all the variants of the virus. There\u2019s some questions about whether the Delta variant has an impact on the overall level of effectiveness, but it would be at the margins. The vaccines are still proving to be very effective, and particularly the Pfizer vaccines\u2014the mRNA vaccines\u2014are still proving to be very effective against the variants of the virus. In terms of the overall rates of M\u0101ori and Pacific vaccination, and why we are seeing them sitting at around that 9 percent mark when the proportion of the population is higher, it is because of the age profile of M\u0101ori and Pacific New Zealanders\u2014they\u2019re a younger population. As I\u2019ve said before, I don\u2019t think any of us should feel particularly proud of the fact that M\u0101ori and Pacific people don\u2019t live as long as other New Zealanders. That is something that our health system as a whole needs to grapple with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe other priority groups at the beginning have been our border workforce, people who are living in aged residential care facilities, and so on. Again, we have seen a lower representation of M\u0101ori within those groups.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u00223b07e767dd5d47798b2dfb5972db0817\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b07e767dd5d47798b2dfb5972db0817\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te Paati M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Finally, was the decision to open up quarantine-free travel with Australia premature; and shouldn\u2019t the Government prioritise keeping our borders closed, given we have already seen so many problems as a result?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00229df84d6349e347a88f4017bd6c4ec7dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229df84d6349e347a88f4017bd6c4ec7dd\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister for COVID-19 Response):\u003C/span\u003E I think it\u2019s a fair question. I don\u2019t think it was premature at the time, but what I\u2019ve learnt with COVID-19 over this last year and a half is that the facts change all the time. Things are a bit different now than they were back in April when we opened the trans-Tasman bubble, and the Australians themselves have acknowledged that too. The Delta variant has changed a lot around COVID-19\u2014it\u2019s certainly changed a lot for them. The New South Wales contact tracing system performed remarkably well in the earlier phase of COVID-19, but really struggled with the Delta variant, and what they\u2019re seeing now is partly as a result of that. So I think things have changed, which is why we\u2019ve seen the suspension.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002237f6bfc43d4440d8823408c04814b4b8\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b1a18d0aa1054a75aa059582a226c8d4\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002241cd064a0a244b01bdbcb0246f14259e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002241cd064a0a244b01bdbcb0246f14259e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Petitions have been delivered to the Clerk for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00227e4e5ef898fc4127ad687805e32c291d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e4e5ef898fc4127ad687805e32c291d\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EPetition of Kirsten Van Newtown requesting that the House ask the Government to urgently act to ensure that all pregnant people, parents, and babies in Aotearoa have the support they need to thrive, by developing a collaborative women\u2019s health strategy\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Nurse Practitioners New Zealand requesting that the House amend Section 29 of the Medicines Act 1981 to allow all authorised prescribers to prescribe medicines that Medsafe or Pharmac suggest as alternatives for unavailable approved medicines\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Stuart Prossor requesting that the House urge the Government to hold a referendum on changing New Zealand\u2019s name to \u201CAotearoa New Zealand\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8cc0ec8998f407b9d136001b4fbdc04\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8cc0ec8998f407b9d136001b4fbdc04\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those petitions stand referred to the Petitions Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EMinisters have delivered papers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u002226f98d0579c644e090575bc0c6da0de5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226f98d0579c644e090575bc0c6da0de5\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ENew Zealand M\u0101ori Arts \u0026amp; Crafts Institute Annual Report for the year ended 31\u202FMarch 2020\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ECrown Infrastructure Partners Limited Statement of Intent 2020-25 and Statement of Performance Expectations 2021-22\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Trade and Enterprise Statement of Performance Expectations 2021/22\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ETertiary Education Commission Statement of Performance Expectations 2021/22\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ECommerce Commission Statement of Performance Expectations 2021/22\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u014Ct\u0101karo Limited Amended Statement of Performance Expectations for Financial Year 2021; Statement of Performance Expectations for financial year 2022; and Statement of Intent for Financial Years 2022-26\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Qualifications Authority Statement of Performance Expectations 2021/22\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Growth Capital Partners Statement of Performance Expectations 2021/22\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ECrown Regional Holdings Limited Statement of Intent 2021-25 and Statement of Performance Expectations 2021-22\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ENetwork for Learning Limited Statement of Intent 2021-25 and Statement of Performance Expectations 2021-22\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Green Investment Finance Statement of Performance Expectations 2021-22.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022bdbcf9d0dcf642d5af5298dd62ea7a9f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bdbcf9d0dcf642d5af5298dd62ea7a9f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I present the report of the cross-party Mental Health and Addiction Wellbeing Group entitled Zero Suicide Aotearoa July 2020, and the report of the Ombudsman entitled Oversight\u2014An investigation into the Ministry of Health\u2019s stewardship of hospital-level secure services for people with an intellectual disability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThose papers are published under the authority of the House. Just as I call select committee reports, I want to say we have had a three-week recess and it is evident that there\u2019s been a significant number of reports come in from select committees over that period. I will ask member to have some patience while they are reported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00220493bce896154804ab758682bb4d18ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220493bce896154804ab758682bb4d18ff\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReport of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee on the 2021-22 Estimates for Vote Business, Science and Innovation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Education and Workforce Committee on the 2021/22 Estimates for: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EVote Education \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EVote Education Review Office, and \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EVote Tertiary Education; \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Eand the 2021/22 Estimates for Vote Labour Market\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Environment Committee on the 2021/22 Estimates for: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EVote Conservation \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EVote Environment, and \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EVote Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReport of the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment: Managing our estuaries \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Finance and Expenditure Committee on:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ethe 2021/22 Estimates for Vote Finance \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EFiscal Strategy Report 2021 and Budget Economic and Fiscal Update 2021 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ethe 2021/22 Estimates for Vote Revenue, and \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ethe petition of Shay Lawrence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee on the 2021/22 Estimates for: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EVote Customs \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EVote Defence and Vote Defence Force, and \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EVote Foreign Affairs\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Governance and Administration Committee on the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2021/22 Estimates for Vote Internal Affairs [Excluding those appropriations that are the responsibility of the Minister for the Community and Voluntary Sector, and the Minister for Diversity, Inclusion and Ethnic Communities]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2021/22 Estimates for:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EVote Ombudsman \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EVote Prime Minister and Cabinet, and \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EVote Public Service [Excluding Supporting Implementation of a Social Wellbeing Approach Appropriation]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Health Committee on the 2021/22 Estimates for Vote Health and Appropriation within Vote Building and Construction\u2014Isolation and Quarantine Management\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Justice Committee:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Eon the 2021/22 Estimates for:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EVote Attorney General and Vote Parliamentary Counsel \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EVote Corrections \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EVote Justice and Vote Courts\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EVote Police and Vote Serious Fraud \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Eon the Inquiry into the 2019 Local Elections and Liquor Licensing Trust Elections, and Recent Energy Trust Elections, and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Eon the International Treaty Examination of the Council of Europe Convention on Cybercrime\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee on the 2021/22 Estimates for Vote M\u0101ori Development and the 2021/22 Estimates for Vote Te Arawhiti\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Petitions Committee on: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ethe petition of Anmar Taufeek \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ethe petition of Claire Bleakley\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ethe petition of Darryl Clarke\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ethe petition of Deborah Turner, and \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ethe petition of Tobias Tahi\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Primary Production Committee on the 2021/22 Estimates for: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EVote Agriculture, Biosecurity, Fisheries and Food Safety \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EVote Forestry, and \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EVote Lands\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Regulations Review Committee on the Examination of COVID-19 orders presented on 29 June 2021\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Social Services and Community Committee on:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ethe 2021/22 Estimates within Vote Public Service\u2014Supporting Implementation of a Social Wellbeing Approach \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ethe 2021/22 Estimates within Vote Internal Affairs that are the responsibility of the Minister for the Community and Voluntary Sector and the Minister for Diversity, Inclusion and Ethnic Communities \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ethe 2021/22 Estimates for:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EVote Arts, Culture and Heritage \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EVote Housing and Urban Development\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EVote Oranga Tamariki\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EVote Pacific Peoples\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EVote Social Development\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EVote Sport and Recreation, and \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EVote Women\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee on the 2021/22 Estimates for Vote Building and Construction [Excluding Isolation and Quarantine Management appropriation] and the 2021/22 Estimates for Vote Transport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002214a844733b9b4ad59b0434dcbd44a5da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002214a844733b9b4ad59b0434dcbd44a5da\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The report on the report of the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment and the reports on the inquiry, the international treaty examination, and the COVID-19 orders are all set down for consideration. All other reports are available on the parliamentary website, especially for Mr Harman. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe introduction of bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00223097b27949be4b6aa73f594647a52591\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223097b27949be4b6aa73f594647a52591\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EHazardous Substances and New Organisms (Hazardous Substances Assessments) Amendment Bill, introduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ESubordinate Legislation Confirmation Bill, introduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EConversion Practices Prohibition Legislation Bill, introduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00228c7771ed34fa473eb3884f00a2741e3a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c7771ed34fa473eb3884f00a2741e3a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those bills are set down for first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a69edeb1cf9e4a7a973129fb1dd76aff\u0022\u003EAppropriation (2021/22 Estimates) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a581f02f03c0478893cb73235beeb1c2\u0022\u003EEstimates Debate\u2014Structure\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u002269973d27771141949c7351583b0ee5b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269973d27771141949c7351583b0ee5b8\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E My apologies, Mr Speaker\u2014I just have to find the right piece of paper to do the bit that I need to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220d2c759ce5845e29f80c98e523ea853\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Do you want me to read it to you?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232ac28bb2a004386b83e39e37316b349\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, it\u2019s all right; I can get there\u2014I can get there. I seek leave for the Estimates debate to be structured around portfolios rather than sectors, and for the chairperson or member of the committee that considered the Estimates most closely related to the Minister\u2019s portfolios to lead off each debate, despite Standing Order 348.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002213da291e9db740c2949a359c9aaffe19\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213da291e9db740c2949a359c9aaffe19\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action being followed? There is none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220c9320f97c6845fb8dc8fbcad0eb17b1\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e5510af0122f4877b41c05dde2e7a950\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227929858623654c65ba446c0462517b6b\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00226bc2ccf955a74bee89dee42cae76d8e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226bc2ccf955a74bee89dee42cae76d8e0\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Kia orana, Mr Speaker. What recent reports has he seen on the New Zealand economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00227bf822cd6c38424fab27db5f6a95cc14\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227bf822cd6c38424fab27db5f6a95cc14\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I can give you a very recent report on the impact of the Olympics on the New Zealand economy, with Lisa Carrington winning her fourth Olympic medal in the K-1 200m. The economic recovery\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b174802d3d7485d8c57d2dd61a0400a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s getting repetitious already!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5a033258723463fbedd420ea560ab4a\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! The economic recovery is continuing to be supported by the export sector. Last week, Statistics New Zealand reported that exports recorded their strongest June month on record, rising by 17 percent on a year earlier to $6 billion. This came off the back of record export values for logs and beef, while dairy products and kiwifruit also experienced strong gains. Nevertheless, there are volatile conditions for our exporters and still challenges. The Government continues to fund the airfreight subsidy scheme to ensure that our exporters can get goods to market in a COVID environment. So far, that scheme has underwritten more than 7,000 flights, carrying over 136,000 tonnes of airfreight, worth around $10 billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283a95ba50e2d4174b15642808effaca7\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: What other reports has he seen on the economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f01aced30994e9197bf121d0c178c9b\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the economic recovery is also being supported by the manufacturing and services sector. The BNZ-BusinessNZ Performance of Manufacturing Index (PMI) is firmly in expansionary territory, rising by 2.1 points to 60.7 in June. Production and new orders were particularly strong at 64.5 and 63.6 respectively. The BNZ-BusinessNZ Performance of Services Index (PSI) rose 2.3 points to 58.6 in June, driven by expansion in sales and new orders. The BNZ economists noted that combined, the PSI and PMI point to an annual GDP for the June 2021 year of around 4 percent. While our economy is performing strongly, the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic means we cannot be complacent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225781fadb18ad4973be5fad2ce592b7ff\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: What other reports has he seen on how business is faring?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9b7d08914bb445d99367d82a1f14aab\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The Government\u2019s efforts to secure the recovery have been reflected in the performance of small businesses. Xero\u2019s Small Business Index for June, which was released last week, hit a record monthly high driven by sales and jobs figures. For the fifth successive month, the index remained above 100, rising 17 points to 127, signalling stronger than average small-business activity. Sales across New Zealand jumped 11.7 percent in June, led by retail trade, manufacturing, construction, and hospitality. Jobs growth rose 5 percent, with the strongest regional growth in Northland and the Waikato. Wage growth also continues to increase, rising 3.7 percent year on year in June, its strongest growth rate since January 2020. Xero said, \u201Cseeing the \u2026 Index reach new heights [was] an encouraging sign that New Zealand\u2019s small business economy [was headed] in the right direction\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002242fb7bc3d9db4bf5aabc5d768a0f35b7\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022df63fbad8c6946a893d33922eb225b87\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df63fbad8c6946a893d33922eb225b87\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Does he stand by his statement that the employment conditions and pay offer that nurses rejected had been proposed by their own bargaining team; if so, why does he think the nurses\u2019 union has stated this isn\u2019t true?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a792fb35d7a9457d957280180f50d866\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a792fb35d7a9457d957280180f50d866\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E In response to the first part of the question: yes. In response to the second part of the question: I\u2019m not responsible for the Nurses Organisation\u2019s views.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc76743192b24d6faaa519893bf5ed6d\u0022\u003EJan Logie\u003C/span\u003E: What did he hope to achieve by misrepresenting the union\u2019s position\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e889708338504e37a3801d6cb4c8ab29\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Order! The member can\u2019t make allegations as part of a question when they\u2019re unsubstantiated like that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296544cc0c70247f3ae2fb0ff89583a97\u0022\u003EJan Logie\u003C/span\u003E: What did the Minister hope to achieve by presenting a position that the nurses\u2019 union believes is untrue outside of the bargaining process, including through a press release, a press conference, Twitter, and a Facebook post?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae12d6ec5f52490c87e23e439fd793dd\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: I did that because when our health sector is under enormous pressure, when the nursing workforce is under extraordinary pressure with a number of serious issues that need to be addressed, including their pay and the resolution of a longstanding pay equity claim and the working conditions that many are under because of the pressure the service is under, it is a serious matter when nurses choose to go on strike, and, certainly, as a consequence of bargaining breaking down, it is important to keep the public informed of what is happening and the background to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc62db0d41684f6fbaeacc1784363d0e\u0022\u003EJan Logie\u003C/span\u003E: Is he aware that when he spoke of \u201Cvariable response management\u201D as opposed to the correct term \u201Cvariance response management\u201D, it undermined nurses\u2019 confidence in his understanding of the safe staffing programme his Government proposes to review?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f84e09b15af47209e9261ccce1deaaa\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: I think the nurses I\u2019ve spoken to fully understand that this Government takes seriously the commitments it entered into in 2018 in relation to the Safe Staffing Accord and the implementation of Care Capacity Demand Management. That scheme has been implemented by 10 DHBs, up to 30 June this year, partially implemented by seven, and three DHBs are way behind on the implementation of it. The DHBs had a deadline of 30 June. It is unsatisfactory and unacceptable that that scheme has not been fully implemented across the system. I\u2019m determined to establish why and to fix it. I sought the agreement of the Nurses Organisation\u2014through the bargaining, at their suggestion\u2014to set up a way to do that. That has been rejected, but I\u2019m going to proceed to establish why that is the case and to fix it anyway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7e2c549379340548afa7af818fa5540\u0022\u003EJan Logie\u003C/span\u003E: Is it true that $10k of the $13,000 increase he said nurses would receive was not actually part of the 2021 multi-employer collective agreement (MECA) offer and will be subject to ratification through a separate pay equity vote outside of MECA bargaining?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7071e196c7c4299b02603fd00c29bca\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: That is not correct. If I can assist the member to understand the structure of the deal that was developed and that was subsequently voted on but rejected by the nurses most recently\u2014there were two components to it. One was the standard cost of living adjustment that was consistent with the pay guidelines developed by the Public Service Commission earlier this year. There was another element that related to what was, effectively, an advance on pay equity in view of the fact that concluding the pay equity claim had taken much longer than both the DHBs and the Nurses Organisation had anticipated, but it was a way of getting additional income into the nurses\u2019 pockets. In any event, that was rejected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f1650c15cc5464cac7a175f9e290cc1\u0022\u003EJan Logie\u003C/span\u003E: Does he support the DHBs taking the Nurses Organisation to the Employment Court over unsafe staffing levels when nurses have been raising the alarm about ongoing unsafe staffing levels for years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a34288b28974ffebc50df0dab80f490\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not responsible for the decisions that the DHBs as employers take in their industrial relations environment except to say that it has been an issue for some months now that there is uncertainty and a lack of clarity about the commitments that both the DHBs and the Nurses Organisation have signed up to in relation to life-preserving services, which is a commitment that the Nurses Organisation gives to DHBs when industrial action takes place. In view of that uncertainty and that lack of clarity and the inability to reach agreement with the Nurses Organisation prior to the next round of industrial action, the DHBs have decided to get a ruling from the courts on exactly what meeting life-preserving standards means.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4ee53f5dc3047b99d4548faf28a6e5a\u0022\u003EJan Logie\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree that the nurses and midwives and healthcare workers are themselves in the best position to judge whether the offer will address their primary concern\u2014that staffing levels are dangerously low and putting lives and their wellbeing at risk?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022421cb3cbd92e400a8ab3d9f098569ccd\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: The workforce that the member refers to is in the best position to determine that. Having determined that, the next step is to find a fix for it, and that is what we\u2019re trying to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f08da5057152494cbee9055cb793dd5b\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u00221a0bf149d81945e39c02c19e5a9ccd50\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a0bf149d81945e39c02c19e5a9ccd50\u0022\u003EDr SHANE RETI (Deputy Leader\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: How many of the 30,000 New Zealanders waiting for overdue hospital procedures could have their procedures done if the $486 million in health restructuring was spent on them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022941d1cfa9d8d46308f4ba1ab4a01ec2b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022941d1cfa9d8d46308f4ba1ab4a01ec2b\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Thirty thousand New Zealanders are not waiting for overdue hospital procedures; 13,500 people across the whole health system are waiting for treatment\u2014a number which has been exacerbated by the global pandemic. This is why, in 2020, the Government allocated $282.5 million over three years to address the impacts of COVID-19 on waiting lists, and also provided an additional $90 million through Budget 2021. I can assure the member that this funding is achieving results as waiting times continue to reduce, and anyone whose treatment was delayed specifically because of the COVID level 4 lockdown has now been treated. In relation to the $486 million the member refers to, the Government has committed to producing a more equitable health system that better delivers the health services that New Zealanders need. This reform will have a material benefit on waiting lists by producing a more efficient system. There is a cost associated with change, but it is clear that the system must change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223ce291f6325451e88851ca5e0ea9546\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: How many of the more than 30,000 waiting for hospital treatment are waiting for cancer treatment, and have cancer wait times become worse over the last four years under Labour?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022940bc3aa8bab4829b826e94c0dfdf8b5\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: I again correct the member. There are not 30,000 New Zealanders waiting for treatment; that number is 13,500. A number of those will be for cancer treatments, but what I can also assure the member is that as a result of the investment made in Budget 2020 of $282.5 million and the further investment of $90 million in Budget 2021, those waiting lists are coming down and cancer treatments are improving.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d6fa1bc3668489aa0cc65cd1a522ee3\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: What does he say to the woman with terminal cancer who was made to wait more than 30 hours in Wellington Regional Hospital\u2019s emergency department for a bed, and how many beds would $486 million fund?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229dfc10a2f7ba4a75a9d36ba6ee707b59\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: It is most regrettable that the person to whom the member refers was left waiting for that length of time, as indeed many New Zealanders are experiencing at hospitals that are under extraordinary pressure. The Capital and Coast District Health Board is a hospital that is under considerable pressure at the moment, and that is why the Ministry of Health has stood up a task force of senior clinicians to work with those hospitals who are experiencing that pressure to assist them to deal with the pressure that they\u2019re under and improve patient flow through their hospital.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbfedb237b4243f9bc27fb2fa809e052\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Can he guarantee that his health restructure won\u2019t further increase the number of New Zealanders who are forced to wait for overdue hospital treatment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234fc9f727a2f48ad8a7e1636d8b91f21\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: The way we have approached the health reform process is exactly to fund additional personnel to manage through the change process so that the business-as-usual processes of our hospital system are not affected. Hospitals have been under unusual pressure this year partly because, as a result of COVID last year, the number of infections and winter infections that would ordinarily happen did not happen, and that has led to an unusually high number of infections, particularly respiratory infections and respiratory syncytial virus, that has put extraordinary pressure on our hospitals this year. I\u2019m confident that with the work that the ministry\u2019s doing to support hospitals, their clinical leadership, and their management, they are getting through what has been a very difficult winter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a1fc0c93a4f447cb7542948cb947934\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the increased emphasis on public and primary healthcare that the health reforms are designed to achieve, among other things, will result in fewer people needing to have more complex care in the future?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266b9f1dd83e84910ae3a93ad2d8c07b6\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: When? A debatable point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022873c27f020154d0a9919f39607591abf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Was that Dr Reti? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c175d681b667449aaf627eb976d0a264\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: It was me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ac8ec7084774bb89d33871af5304d33\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Are you trying to lose supplementaries for the rest of your team?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbe70ba521bd40f29ec11aeee07536d6\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: I can say that that is a primary objective of the healthcare reforms, and, in fact, of the $486 million to fund the transition. A large chunk of that is for commissioning services, including new forms of commissioning primary and community services just so we start to get a lead on improving that front-line healthcare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b92206c55a0c4250a4c2869d3e3330e7\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: What does he say to the pregnant mother at North Shore Hospital who was already in her theatre gown for a semi-urgent caesarean section but was then told that due to pressures on theatres, she would have to drive herself to Waitakere Hospital and to google how to get there? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225919c363d123490f8dc478868eb0acc1\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: All I can say to that person is that they have been treated appallingly badly, and that is, again, most regrettable. But it would have probably been assisted a lot more if the previous Government had invested barely $1 billion in nine years of Government, whereas we have invested $5.5 billion in infrastructure because the system has been so badly run down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296a39649918e42cc85312c2ed1d7e146\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: In light of that answer, can the Minister confirm that this year\u2019s health budget is 45 percent higher than the last year of the health budget when the National Party were in office? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260bc0cd9c34746d9b4de7b5e160af24f\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: I can say that this Government, because Labour Governments are public health system Governments, has invested considerably more in the four years we have been in Government than the previous Government did, not only operational funding but capital funding as well. The previous Government had two years in a row where they invested absolutely nothing in the infrastructure of our health system, and that\u2019s why we\u2019re having to fix it up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c6d6b550f12433b8275d0af2bc3a45c\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Can he confirm that the funding for additional support in Vote Health this year is roughly 30 percent than additional support in Vote Health last year? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1c664a838f44a8db5645e1d2d3a68e2\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: I know that member is obsessed about trying to demonstrate there\u2019s been a cut in health funding, and there hasn\u2019t been. So there has been an increase\u2014yet another increase\u2014in operational health funding for our public health services this year, but the increase this year was not as great as the one last year. But there has been an increase, as this Government does when it is in Government\u2014it significantly increases health spending for the benefit of the people who need it most. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e7c108a985994a55b008c21fb6b94006\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Housing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022dcf151f3f473425ea509af8e17d184ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dcf151f3f473425ea509af8e17d184ea\u0022\u003EBARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing: Meitaki maata, Vaa Tuatua. What recent announcements has she made about funding infrastructure to enable new housing in Porirua?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00224240fd76a7404ebea236abe24f5b3971\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224240fd76a7404ebea236abe24f5b3971\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana. Last month, I was pleased to announce the Government is investing $136 million into infrastructure in Porirua from the Housing Acceleration Fund, the first drawdown of this fund. This investment will improve sewerage, storm water, and water storage infrastructure and result in capacity for 2,000 additional houses in Porirua. We acknowledge that there is more to do, and this investment is an important milestone in the Government\u2019s housing plans through our large-scale projects. I\u2019m proud that we\u2019re taking action that will enable more houses and improve the surrounding environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd79a50224be4bf78b72e3c493f55b46\u0022\u003EBarbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Meitaki. How will this result in better housing outcomes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc37f2e8809c498fb3eaf2765743ed8f\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Upgrading the waste-water infrastructure in Porirua and increasing the capacity for water storage is needed to get new housing consented. Getting this infrastructure in place quickly is vital to getting more houses built and is exactly why we launched the Housing Acceleration Fund. Funding will be used to address land remediation and development work around Cannons Creek. Together, these investments will provide capacity for an additional 2,000 homes on private- and Government-owned land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fd0ece7a5de41d796a5413983226743\u0022\u003EBarbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Meitaki. How will this project help create employment and training opportunities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da5313b583604b078d6220d246b3f71f\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: This work will be undertaken by the Te Aranga Alliance, with an important focus on creating employment and training opportunities. The alliance will emphasise hiring and upskilling local workers wherever possible, which will help lead people into sustainable jobs in a booming industry that badly needs more workers. Initial estimates indicate up to 250 jobs could be created alongside opportunities for contractors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229d7b62f284ac4e5c94bccc9d4105da0c\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u002252d40b94f1854f0f9f63b8ef93ed6396\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252d40b94f1854f0f9f63b8ef93ed6396\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Is he satisfied that the Government\u2019s investment of taxpayer funds reflects its priorities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00226deaf758921c44d58576bbce72098cd5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226deaf758921c44d58576bbce72098cd5\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, the Government\u2019s policy priorities for the three-year term are continuing to keep New Zealanders safe from COVID19, accelerating the recovery and rebuild from the impacts of COVID-19, and laying the foundations for the future\u2014including addressing key issues such as climate change, housing affordability, and child poverty. The investments we are making are focused on addressing these priorities; at the risk of testing the Speaker\u2019s patience, I\u2019ll run through just a few examples. We\u2019re continuing to keep New Zealanders safe from COVID-19, through the nationwide vaccination programme, with nearly 2 million doses of the Pfizer vaccine being administered to New Zealanders, while our investments in the managed isolation facilities continue to keep New Zealanders safe from the virus and our economy able to operate with fewer restrictions than nearly any other country. We\u2019re accelerating the recovery through our record investments in infrastructure, training record numbers of apprentices\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d37a4b81e7ac4d4fb1f755a2115e5d41\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! The member\u2019s answered the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4b7ed4aa59145c9a7fc303ef9280c32\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Is funding $2.75 million for a meth programme run by a Mongrel Mob member a higher priority than giving money to a successful mental health programme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e05b21efe46948dca044b53ec5465821\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows that the programme he\u2019s referring to is about getting people off methamphetamine. The most important thing we can do in that space, in this House, is undertake programmes that work. It is not about funding a gang; it is about funding getting people off meth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1c97e84ac604391903d3f4163af4e9c\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Does he consider spending of up to $15 billion on light rail in Auckland a higher priority than the plethora of New Zealand upgrade roading projects now delayed or cancelled?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220865d283ca7d44acb1081238d9607791\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I think that light rail in Auckland is a very important investment in making sure that we have transport moving around our city. But the member doesn\u2019t need to see this as a zero-sum game. There\u2019s about $6.8 billion of funding there\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234d5ae04a58e43fab15c2b8aef0c8eda\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: But the people of Mill Road do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022344c70168c8549ba9d4388f773d284eb\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260cc70b82ae3450b8ca262b529a50600\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014in that programme, plus another $2 billion that have been added. We are able to do both of those things, Mr Woodhouse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222103dcb1c88c40e6b5f48b629e096fdc\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I just want to say that the member doesn\u2019t have a gentle voice\u2014the Minister answering the question\u2014but the volume of interjection has got too much. I think I\u2019ve told members that I have received in the last sitting block quite a lot of correspondence about noise that\u2019s come from one party in particular that has meant that people who are at home have trouble hearing the response. [Interruption] It\u2019s good to have all the premature pleas of not guilty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8b33d49979147afacf2e2dfbc6c71e9\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Is $486 million on a new health bureaucracy a higher priority than spending $486 million on front-line services to clear the waiting list backlog?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229282ceba3ea143509d23e6f37e43c73b\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m pleased to say that the Government\u2019s investing significant resources in both of those things. The first of those is about making sure that we\u2019ve got a health system that is actually fit for purpose. It\u2019s about creating a M\u0101ori health authority that will deliver\u2014for the first time, probably, in New Zealand\u2019s health system\u2019s history\u2014outcomes that will be more positive for M\u0101ori. It\u2019s about making sure that wherever you live, you get the services that you deserve, and, also, we can deliver on front-line services. The member needs to understand that these are not zero-sum games.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b3f86523a3f4cb5b629f28c34b643d7\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Do his comments regarding the proposed Northern Pathway this morning indicate he has had a cycleway to Damascus experience and that the priority of that project over other harbour crossings is now being reconsidered?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e4482faf17e47e8a9bdafc020df1d1e\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: No. What it means is that this Government is getting on with the job of making sure that the second harbour crossing is under way. Around $50 million is dedicated to that\u2014including completing the business case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4d367c9074640a19dad8075dde4649d\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: So is the Government backpedalling on the bike bridge? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5ff40016be54271ac6f462bf6e29cfd\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002222a952eba36f471fa2d37fd1e51d77a6\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Social Development and Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022541304c4f28b414ab480e37d3ce121c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022541304c4f28b414ab480e37d3ce121c6\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour\u2014New Plymouth)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Meitaki maata, Vaa Tuatua. What reports has she seen on the number of people receiving the main benefit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9fb0142a4674f54bf2de5b13644e3b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9fb0142a4674f54bf2de5b13644e3b5\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Mr Speaker. The Ministry of Social Development (MSD) recently released the benefit statistics for the June quarter. They show main benefit numbers fell by 11,193. At the end of the June quarter, there were 354,744 people receiving a main benefit, with 110,790 people receiving a job seeker work-ready benefit. This is well below forecasts which showed up to 490,000 people could be in receipt of a main benefit due to the COVID-19 pandemic. We are also seeing encouraging signs that the numbers of main benefit continues to trend down over the month of July.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee902d26e68a434d9604571df3fd86d1\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: What Government investments have impacted these results?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec5366cc91584c28b393e6afcc9f2cdb\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: When we came into Government, we noticed a significant decline had occurred in front-line, work-focused case management, and took action to ensure we made investments to support more employment-focused activity. This includes investing in 263 new front-line staff in Budget 2019 to help people into work, $150 million in Budget 2020, and $99 million in Budget 2021 invested into employment services and products, and a further $86 million in Budget 2021 to sustain the MSD staff needed to deliver income and case management services. This investment has paid off, with around 31,240 people being placed into employment in the last quarter, the second-highest number since records began, since 1996.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1751f26fad54d8b9c71f3031323143c\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: What other programmes have contributed to these results?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eeeaf8fb8fbf4daa97f8369db7a37d5b\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is also working hard to reduce the skills gap between the available jobs and available labour. Flexi-wage has seen 4,782 people placed in employment since it was expanded in February, and Apprenticeship Boost, which now has supported 30,031 people into a trade. I\u2019ve also been encouraged by the results from the Mayors Taskforce for Jobs, which has worked with Government to create 1,326 sustainable full-time jobs across regional New Zealand. It is clear that our plan for recovery is creating jobs and supporting New Zealanders back into upskilling, training, and work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223aa0bec57097481abe23c0e60c6cc067\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Social Development and Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u00224f3ebed82f054cd59901ffbf00cccae2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f3ebed82f054cd59901ffbf00cccae2\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Does she have confidence the Government is doing all it can to keep young people in emergency housing safe; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u002257300f765ffe44a58c84e2432eb3736a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002257300f765ffe44a58c84e2432eb3736a\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E When we came into Government, we inherited an emergency housing special needs grants and emergency housing process that virtually had no safeguards in place. During our time, we have moved to ensure all that are receiving an emergency housing special needs grant are in active case management; we have housing brokers to support them into housing that is more sustainable, secure, and stable than emergency accommodation; we have set up navigators to support those in emergency accommodation with wraparound supports; we have set up a complaints process so the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) can receive and respond to any safety or suitability concerns; we have worked with the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development and councils to contract spaces in Rotorua to ensure people are appropriately cohorted, and we are going to roll out this particular model to other parts of New Zealand where there are emergency housing hotspots. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EWe don\u2019t want to see any New Zealanders requiring emergency accommodation, but we inherited a housing crisis, and whilst we have been building houses as quickly as possible, there are still New Zealanders\u2014including some young New Zealanders\u2014requiring emergency housing support. Is there more to do? Yes, and we are committed always to looking at ways to improve the supports that we have in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285142bd5c4dd4b36bc28c3263130f4f8\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: How can she have confidence when a young woman staying in an emergency housing motel said on Newshub Nation, \u201CI would feel terrified, because my room that I\u2019m currently in has been broken into so many times, and I had to start putting my table and chair by the sliding and main doors.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bd98327a4f24bb0a7e068490234e170\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: No one would deem that acceptable, and I saw that particular report myself and, of course, felt absolute empathy for that young woman. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211a6e792234b46a8992eb44a5f109e62\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: What did you do about it? What are you doing about it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a995c8a193b64b25b315148c49f9cd8f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The Hon Louise Upston knows how to address Ministers, and it\u2019s not like that. She\u2019s been here for a very long time and should know better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddead001378b4356bb8de4aa8c6be0ea\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: This is one of the reasons that we have put a complaints process in place, so that people can come back to MSD if there are safety or suitability concerns of the emergency accommodation that they\u2019re in. In the last 12 weeks, I think we have received about 40 complaints, but I would encourage anyone that experiences that type of scenario to certainly get in touch with MSD. I would also say that where MSD absolutely accepts that they have a responsibility to work with people to ensure that they\u2019re in suitable and safe accommodation, the motelier has a responsibility to ensure that those rooms are secure as well, and our police also have a role to play a part when there is criminal activity that people are experiencing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abe3e787c4a04cc9ae51068ef26cfff1\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: How can she have confidence when a front-line worker said, \u201CWe\u2019ve had a lot of rangatahi \u2026 get exposed to sexual trauma\u201D and \u201Cthey haven\u2019t come into emergency housing with an addiction, [but] they often leave with one.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022858353eedf99443f916adc660562f4e6\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: Just to clarify, I did see the report. It was a front-line Lifewise worker\u2014and it\u2019s important to clarify\u2014not an MSD case manager, and I absolutely respect the work that Lifewise is doing with our young people, particularly in the housing space. It is not acceptable\u2014that is why we\u2019ve put a complaints process in place, and where we have social services and organisations, like Lifewise, who are working directly with vulnerable young people who have those experiences, we hope that they would feel like the communication is there, that they\u2019re able to contact MSD to actually inform them of these situations as well, so we can work together to keep our young people safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c748771f8b2c439b8ff19fd465e0ddcb\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: When will the Gang Intelligence Centre information start to keep people in emergency housing safe, given MSD and Police only started working on emergency housing cooperation arrangements in May this year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a5c93e7898b4847836c5eb5e02724b8\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: I reiterate what I said in the House previously: none of the regional commissioners around the country have indicated that there has been an escalating presence or demand for emergency accommodation grants through MSD in recent months or the time that we have been in place. So the fact that the member keeps bringing this up, I think, unfortunately is more of an attempt to stigmatise those that are in emergency accommodation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c896827fc6984fcf9964a9b1d6947c79\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Minister say, just last month, that \u201Cgangs taking up emergency accommodation is not a huge issue\u201D, when a front-line worker said, \u201CIt\u2019s just intimidating for our rangatahi, especially if they\u2019re not connected to any gang. Often they leave; they are then connected to a gang after they leave emergency housing.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f701bb78ab75494996f6ca99ca5f2222\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, I respect the work that Lifewise are doing, and it\u2019s important that we continue to work together to keep those in emergency accommodation safe, and to improve the system where we can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022381df893d0a84417ac8c0e87d14c2fd9\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Building and Construction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u002205d8b360bf9041219229c289f5253457\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205d8b360bf9041219229c289f5253457\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour\u2014Northcote)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Building and Construction: Meitaki \u2018atupaka, Vaa Tuatua. T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. What recent reports has she seen regarding building consents? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022 data-id=\u0022c50a72a367a64f95a4914d89a000882a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c50a72a367a64f95a4914d89a000882a\u0022\u003EHon POTO WILLIAMS (Minister for Building and Construction):\u003C/span\u003E Meitaki humaria, Vaa Tuatua. I\u2019ve seen a report from Statistics New Zealand that shows the number of building consents has broken yet another record, with 44,299 new homes having been consented in the year ended June 2021\u2014another all-time high. This is an increase of 18 percent from the June 2020 year, with 4,310 new dwellings consented in June alone. These figures demonstrate just how far we\u2019ve come in the last year since facing the initial disruptions of COVID-19. We\u2019ve responded to the sector uncertainty by investing in the sector to keep the momentum going to deliver the warm, dry, safe houses that New Zealanders need. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8089fcdcba14cc082b58ee303c34f8c\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: What do these figures show for T\u0101maki-makau-rau\u2014Auckland? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216e77c33386f4be0940d86867c4751ac\u0022\u003EHon POTO WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: In Auckland, the annual number of new homes consented rose 29 percent in the June 2020-21 year, including a 51 percent rise in multi-unit homes. Higher density and modular offsite manufacturing methods are key to helping New Zealand with healthy, modern, and affordable homes that we need. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a18dca9788b45a5972e3234c669d08d\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: How is the Government supporting the building and construction sector to build on this growth in consents? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d91c3b5251a475f90bc8a3682fdeb7b\u0022\u003EHon POTO WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: As a Government, we are committed to supporting the sector through the continued investment in trades training and apprenticeships, our building legislative reform programme, and improvement to our planning system by repealing and replacing the Resource Management Act. We\u2019re also ensuring that we have the capacity to meet this increasing demand. Through Construction Skills Action Plan initiatives, more than 9,300 people have taken up education or employment opportunities in the construction sector since 2008. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002210926694d9244112b8a46b46f4b5da4b\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Housing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u00222418d41faed6455480080f7625aa3230\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222418d41faed6455480080f7625aa3230\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (National) \u003C/span\u003Eto the Minister of Housing: What is the combined value of properties Government housing agencies have purchased since October 2017 and is she satisfied that, in all cases, these purchases have been good value for money?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00221c3dc5087f234e40822ce0c908f1b913\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c3dc5087f234e40822ce0c908f1b913\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E For the purposes of this answer, I\u2019ve interpreted \u201Chousing agencies\u201D to be the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development and K\u0101inga Ora. Since October 2017, they have made purchases via the following programmes: $377.44 million worth of land via the Land for Housing Programme, which has contracted or delivered 2,037 new homes, with the potential for 6,000 to 7,000 more; $146.4 million worth of KiwiBuild homes, representing 321 homes, but it is important to note that of that $146.4 million, $144.5 million has already been recycled back in; $771 million associated with purchasing approximately 1,186 State houses\u2014again, it is important to note that this represents just 22 percent of total State houses delivered over the period, which is significantly lower than the 67 percent reached under the previous National Government. For further context, there were around 85,000 homes sold last calendar year in New Zealand, and of those, K\u0101inga Ora bought 385. That is 0.45 percent of the total houses sold. In the last two financial years, we have also purchased $366.5 million worth of transitional housing, delivering 542 homes. Of course, within our redevelopments of State housing land, we\u2019ve enabled 1,884 market houses to be built. There is also vacant land purchased under the public housing build programme, as well as other agencies who will purchase property from time to time, such as the Temporary Accommodation Service at the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment. In answer to the second part of the question, if the member means the Government recognising there\u2019s a crisis, and actually doing something about it and delivering houses, then, yes, I do believe we are getting value for money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bf8f6b51c08439f93225902e9e0f268\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: How many houses could have been built with the more than a billion dollars that Government housing agencies have spent buying up public and transitional houses from the private market?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4bd1cf066784e50a4dbb2d47e6c7237\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: The very comprehensive list I just went through to the member totalled to $1.5 billion that has been spent over that period, which has delivered between 10,086 and 12,970 homes. If the member is asking, \u201CWhy don\u2019t you just build more houses instead of buying them?\u201D, that is exactly what we have rebuilt our housing provider, K\u0101inga Ora, to be able to do. Coming off a period of nine years where they failed to deliver any houses, the agency became a house-selling agency. We had to rebuild the capacity so we\u2019re no longer buying in 67 percent of the houses. In fact, we\u2019ve got that down into the 20 percents, and we intend to do even better, because we know there is a housing crisis in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a653d2e2c994f73bdc53920e10234e5\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Government pay almost double the capital value for the Boulevard Motel in Rotorua at a cost of $8.1 million\u2014that is, $270,000 per motel unit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f96099d912e41de838cb8910dad824a\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: The member is taking a very simplistic analysis to this. So the purchase price was $8.17 million including GST. An independent valuation that was provided in June of this year was $8.5 million. The rateable value (RV) was $4.31 million. I would note to the member that residential properties in Rotorua are selling, on average, 25 percent RV, as well as a range of other factors. But I would also note this is in line with previous purchases of motels, such as the Takanini motel that had a statutory rating valuation of $1.3 million but the purchase price was $2.65 million\u2014this was, of course, in December 2016\u2014the Eastland Motel, that had a statutory rating value of $910,000 but the purchase cost was $2.1 million\u2014this was in June 2017\u2014The Clansman Motel, a statutory rating valuation of $900,000 but was purchased for $1.84 million\u2014this was also in June of 2017. Then\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022494b4c00f6ae4c3dac658a99c1cb34ba\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! I think it\u2019s now getting repetitious.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299c7c445f70b4e87ad95f23403058bcc\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: How many more motels does the Government plan to buy this year, and will the due diligence for those purchases include a comparative assessment of how many houses could be built with that cash?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221149b143cb874650b07a6ebe8fa317fe\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re looking at a range of options in Rotorua where they make good housing sense. I think, as I\u2019ve just outlined in the answer to the previous supplementary, the previous Government\u2014of which the member is a member of that party\u2014certainly went on a bit of a spree, as it came up to the 2017 election, of buying motels after no action on delivering transitional housing. Where we are buying motels in Rotorua, it\u2019s where it makes good housing sense, and where there is, indeed, potential for redevelopment of that land for longer-term housing prospects. We\u2019re not prepared to just deny there is a housing crisis and do nothing about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266a0d4cff15a4837a1d150e0f53a0f59\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen any other examples of motels being purchased above their rateable values?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a010d3a67c94d139dcf3185decff70c\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: There is indeed a pattern, as I said in 2017, as we came up to the election that year\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022513f662a05924536a44a0cbb513861e0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. Order! I think there are some pretty clear Speakers\u2019 rulings about Government members not putting up patsies in order to bash the Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222737fb5b18ac477ebfe595063386c59c\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: What investigations has she conducted into an allegation by a real estate agent that K\u0101inga Ora \u201CHave approached our company and said that they are happy to pay up to $200,000 over the asking price if the auction falls through.\u201D, and can the Minister categorically guarantee that K\u0101inga Ora are not pumping up house prices in this way?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7278618712a4de3bec7aca9547a855b\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: I heard the same allegation on talkback radio as the member is quoting in the House today. I also invited that caller to get in touch with me and to give me the evidence. I have asked officials if there is any substance to the allegation of the talkback caller. They have said that they can find absolutely no evidence of it, but if that member has any evidence of the talkback caller\u2014just like with the homeless man allegedly checking in to the managed isolation and quarantine facility\u2014I ask the member to bring that evidence to me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224f03e322d31f4b02990ce89846636742\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6bc9e143a584948bd35dd2423e37637\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6bc9e143a584948bd35dd2423e37637\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: My question is to the Prime Minister, and I wish her well in getting well soon. Does she stand by all her Government\u2019s policies and statements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00221d8b4b42f5074fa29e2acda4fa8b0f22\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d8b4b42f5074fa29e2acda4fa8b0f22\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Deputy Prime Minister)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Prime Minister: I thank the \u201CLeader of the Opposition\u201D for his question. Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226175f5af03c14cee8fe0b552a2725d38\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: How does apologising for immigration policies before she was born help those people separated from their children for over a year by Government policy today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236220dfc2aca4f6b976bd8076641716b\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Prime Minister, the apology that the Prime Minister issued on Sunday was for an egregious use of the State\u2019s power over 40 years ago. I would hope that all members of this House would support that approach to try to deal with some of the trauma that has been experienced by those in the communities who were raided in that way. I don\u2019t accept the comparison the member\u2019s making in his question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280f4f2ec40ea46efa8e51e8de1d16207\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Wouldn\u2019t the apology be more sincere if the Government did undertake to help those having their families torn apart by contemporary immigration policy, such as those who gathered outside Parliament this afternoon and were meeting in Auckland at exactly the time the apology was being made but not one of the Government\u2019s 28 Ministers attended?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4e026e249bf45758cc3239e81e1cdf2\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The apology made by the Prime Minister on Sunday was sincere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b04c8c476ee54eaea71445e961ae95be\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Government stand by its policy of building a bike bridge across the Waitemat\u0101 Harbour with a benefit-cost ratio of 0.4, and how will that help solve the very real problem of a shortage of housing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f19ec83b131e4dd391928610f421d377\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The Government stands by its policy of ensuring that we have strong linkages between the North Shore and the isthmus of Auckland. That is a multimodal solution. It includes making sure that we build a second harbour crossing with a public transport - centric focus; $50 million has been allocated for the business case of that. It also includes making sure that we can have walking and cycling access between North Shore and the isthmus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2f6ed39bc4f4275b8827c986a739dea\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: How will debt to income ratios on mortgage lending announced today help young people who already cannot afford skyrocketing house prices?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb051e5f048346c8b33fd02a40fffc1f\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Those were not announced today; the Governor of the Reserve Bank announced that he was beginning a consultation on that proposal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230de43240cdb476193503e07006ca555\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: How do bans on gay conversion therapy help New Zealanders suffering from people breaking the laws that already exist and the Government doesn\u2019t enforce, with rising crime on the streets up and down New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3bd7e33ffd546ed8ab27861c58d53d5\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not 100 percent sure I can draw the exact comparison that the member\u2019s doing. I think he\u2019s comparing, sort of, oranges and wombats. He should, I hope, want to be a part of a Parliament where we make sure that young people are not put in a position where conversion practices are put upon them. That I would hope, and I thought I\u2019d previously heard the member support that legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5fd2d7c942d49e3bff7ebf3a068c824\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: When will her Minister of Finance answer the significant number of unanswered and one-week-overdue written parliamentary questions from me about the Government\u2019s adherence to the Public Finance Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b951220dab634280a6a6e3ecc0c4a99b\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Prime Minister, the Minister of Finance informs me those questions have been answered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f479de951dac43afa294777b47995e6b\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Why have the questions not been answered as of 2 o\u2019clock today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230f0543060be4e9a91544b3055028edb\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Prime Minister, the Minister of Finance informs me he signed them off at least 24 to 48 hours ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e74927c4b33d46e794562a1c4b25f832\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Immigration\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022 data-id=\u0022facf0b578bfe46aab2071fd62bf06fe1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022facf0b578bfe46aab2071fd62bf06fe1\u0022\u003EANNA LORCK (Labour\u2014Tukituki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Immigration: Kia orana, Mr Speaker. What announcements has the Government made in relation to the RSE scheme for next season\u2019s harvest?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u0022468716252e8447699b6b856d8b4fe2ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022468716252e8447699b6b856d8b4fe2ed\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Mr Speaker. Yesterday, we announced that the Government will work to open up one-way quarantine-free travel to New Zealand from Samoa, Tonga, and Vanuatu for Recognised Seasonal Employer (RSE) scheme workers without having to use the managed isolation and quarantine system. I meet with the leaders of the hort\u2019 and viticulture sector every fortnight, and I\u2019ve heard directly the difficulties they have faced as a result of the COVID border closures. We are committed to working with them to ensure they get the required RSE workers for the upcoming harvest. I also note that this will have a positive impact on the Pacific nations. This is also important for a New Zealand perspective, given the challenges that COVID has had on many of our Pacific neighbours.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4777eefb0c44f94aa4130a4446d1460\u0022\u003EAnna Lorck\u003C/span\u003E: How has this announcement on RSE been received?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdc1810bdeaa448f9046260205f74c3b\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: I am aware of reports of growers expressing strong support for the Government\u2019s decision around the one-way quarantine-free travel arrangement. Horticulture New Zealand chief executive, Nadine Tunley, has said that this means a huge amount to our growers. Central Otago mayor, Tim Cadogan, said the announcement was fantastic news for local fruitgrowers, and New Zealand Apples and Pears CEO, Alan Pollard, said he was really delighted that workers were going to be able to have an opportunity to participate back in the workforce here and return those much-needed funds back to their community. I\u2019d like to thank Alan for his text last night, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295583861a9e64032b27694ed99371c34\u0022\u003EAnna Lorck\u003C/span\u003E: How has the Government been working with the sector leaders in the lead-up to the RSE announcement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d07eca0967dc4a7f8048699d3c6cd2c7\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: As I mentioned, Minister O\u2019Connor and I have been meeting with the hort\u2019 and vit\u2019 sector leadership on a fortnightly basis to work through the impacts of the closed border on their sectors. Conversations have been very constructive. In the most recent engagement last week, I discussed our objectives for quarantine-free travel with the Pacific and they\u2019ve taken the news well, as I\u2019ve said. Again, I\u2019d like to thank the hort\u2019 and vit\u2019 sector leaders for their engagement. It has not always been easy, but it has always been respectful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5a8d3d6bf3a48d5a5d25e68bf64cc6a\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister explain why only RSE workers from Samoa, Tonga, and Vanuatu are allowed to skip MIQ, and not other workers from these countries, given this is the tightest labour market in 40 years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253680a6fed96487f9cd5a81571069f7c\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: As you can imagine, one of the key components of us coming to an arrangement with the Pacific around quarantine-free travel is the health and safety of those Pacific nations. We want to stage the ability of bringing people through quarantine-free travel, and being able to start that with RSE workers is a good way to start. We hope that if we can continue along that path and it is both safe for New Zealand and safe for the Pacific, we will be able to expand the number of people coming from those three countries and beyond the Pacific. I think the member might want to have a look at the experience of Fiji over the last two or three months to make sure that we are taking into consideration the safety of the Pacific nations and the health of the Pacific nations when we are making these decisions. The RSE decision is great for our hort\u2019 and vit\u2019 sector here, but, fundamentally, we want to make sure our Pacific neighbours are safe as well. And I\u2019m sure that members of the Opposition would like to do that too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002226daae83e77341b4a5a8ab72d9804dea\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Police\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0df584b4acf4887854d0d0a3df9ab18\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0df584b4acf4887854d0d0a3df9ab18\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN (National\u2014Pakuranga)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: Does she stand by her statement when referring to an interview with Harry Tam about the funding granted to his organisation that \u201CIt sounded like a recruitment drive for the gangs\u201D; if so, has she expressed any concern about this to the Prime Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022 data-id=\u002239fbe52f0bdc4c089dbcbd906371922f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239fbe52f0bdc4c089dbcbd906371922f\u0022\u003EHon POTO WILLIAMS (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E Meitaki maata e Vaa Tuatua. In a rare misstep for that member, he has taken my quote out of context! I was commenting on an interview with Harry Tam where he failed to talk about the harm that\u2019s caused to women and children who try to escape gangs and where he failed to talk about the harm that meth causes to communities. That\u2019s what I have expressed to the Prime Minister and to this House\u2014that we can\u2019t simply arrest our way to success. That\u2019s why this Government will always be tough on crime and tough on the drivers of crime. The programme the member refers to gets to people that other drug rehabilitation services simply don\u2019t reach or can be effective with. This approach isn\u2019t new; it\u2019s based on a programme the National Government developed for the Notorious chapter of the Mongrel Mob.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229e1eb5ee3144dc498e2722a955efbed\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Does she think it is appropriate to grant $2.75 million to an organisation that is run by a Mongrel Mob member that she described as being on a recruitment drive for gang membership when gang membership has increased by over 50 percent under this Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fb2b43d8c8949fda9c9b72baa32c944\u0022\u003EHon POTO WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve been very clear that the lead agency on this programme of\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bd2be1d146846998f6d8db0b2cd8696\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! The member will resume her seat. Do members on this side want an answer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226053b86f52164beea53101395406c022\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccbb9ab15d0e4fcd8839dbba6901c155\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if they do, they will be quiet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdd6fb2fc44d4856bd687c0406977ed0\u0022\u003EMatt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. A member of the Government interjected while Simeon Brown was asking the primary question, and now you\u2019re pulling us up. How is that fair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e4a9c2ce05443708bb7ed8669f5e243\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I had no trouble hearing Simeon Brown, because his mike was on and all of us could hear him. The interjections were going right across the microphones into mine and interfering with the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022863b03bd3bae4a25929d1724d83783c7\u0022\u003EHon POTO WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve been really clear that the lead agency on this work is the Ministry of Health and they are funding a programme that fundamentally works. It\u2019s been proven to work. We are not funding the gangs; we are funding a programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272f25ec19faa45ef95b949d3e84532c4\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Does she stand by her statement \u201Cgangs pedal meth, meth destroys our communities\u201D, and, if so, was the Government wrong to sign off on $2.75 million to an organisation run by a lifetime Mongrel Mob member?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224661945d514a477cb497f3a092789d18\u0022\u003EHon POTO WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: I stand by my statement. Meth harms our communities. Gangs pedal meth. The Ministry of Health is the lead agency on a programme that works. We are funding the programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288e9667634624e4388e8aa4cb601a90a\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Does she trust Harry Tam in light of her statement: \u201CI\u2019m sure gangs pedal meth and they do that by recruiting young people\u201D, and, if so, does she agree it is in the interests of gangs to keep people addicted to meth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c45e8b54ddcf48eab101c9149a5f02b9\u0022\u003EHon POTO WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: We are talking about wanting to disrupt the harm that gangs do to our communities. They entice, they encourage young people into gangs, and this Government is working damn hard to ensure that there are exit points for our young people to get out of the gangs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022757b34627e0049abb5849f8f2677ca98\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! The time for oral questions is concluded. I have received a letter from David Seymour seeking to debate under Standing Order 399 the actions and comments of the Minister of Education regarding special-needs education in public schools. This is a particular case of recent occurrence\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260ff1c24bf774d558dc0e2b005e3e482\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223303f432da354294bd7037c14e6c5fda\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member can\u2019t possibly have a point of order relating to this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e530767c02f4682ba410025791b7771\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve got one more supplementary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd64c6688e76425cb9456e827e06a64c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eac2a20aaa1542868d79d835d1d6d6ae\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve got one more supplementary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cbba062c8854715ac5234e4d47916e8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I apologise; the member does have one. I probably thought I should have taken one away, but I\u2019ll keep going.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228940ac45423e4c1c9f24a4ec26c594fe\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. What does she say to Police Association president, Chris Cahill, who likened this funding to money laundering, saying, \u201CPolice take $2m of dirty money\u2014as they recently did from the Notorious chapter of the Mongrel Mob\u2014\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022868b0bcca585433a9afd56a85c24a977\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s question\u2019s completed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022669fa72d59094ee882189262ff6df1e0\u0022\u003EHon POTO WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: I have a lot of respect for the work Chris Cahill does for the Police Association, and I agree with him on many topics, including front-line safety improvement programmes which keep our police safe, because they do a really difficult job keeping our communities safe. However, I will reiterate, we spent money on a programme led by the Ministry of Health. This programme supports those people to get out of their addictions to meth. We are funding a programme; we are not funding the gang.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207299bc63ce14dfe8aeb992f2f5eda0f\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I just want to query why you cut off my colleague\u2019s question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022501cb3abb060425a950858d71c7c7e01\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member will resume his seat. It\u2019s not up to me to educate the member on the Standing Orders at this time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002220e4735fff514596983b4363e602673a\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates Declined\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224b2cb957bc154a32a9845429b8aa662e\u0022\u003EMinister of Education\u2014Special Needs Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022f663d640b70a42739cb31bc476b58cd8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f663d640b70a42739cb31bc476b58cd8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have received a letter from David Seymour seeking to debate under Standing Order 399 the actions and comments of the Minister of Education regarding special needs education in public schools. This is a particular case of recent occurrence for which there is ministerial responsibility. Having considered the matters raised by the member in his letter, I\u2019m not convinced that it reached the threshold that warrants setting aside the business of the House, particularly given the fact that we\u2019re about to commence the Estimates debate. The application is therefore declined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002244fdd15181ff484084f4f5b024b0779b\u0022\u003EHouse in Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222a1e5623e0a5477e9b864f47da9fb370\u0022\u003EHouse in Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5fdb8a7d6ad4eb585ddc8ba178dbda1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5fdb8a7d6ad4eb585ddc8ba178dbda1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Appropriation (2021/22 Estimates) Bill, the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Bill, and the Family Court (Supporting Children in Court) Legislation Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002219fd61633953423b859a5d33b9b5d2f2\u0022\u003EEstimates Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002202a850202be541beaa8fbe53d50c6e37\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022712d223e19b24e9da87a2808736d384b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022712d223e19b24e9da87a2808736d384b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Kia orana tatou k\u0101toatoa. Members, the House is in committee for consideration of the Appropriation (2021/22 Estimates) Bill. The Standing Orders provide for 11 hours of debate on the Estimates. The House has given leave to organise the debates by portfolio so there will be no set specific debates. All Votes are available for debate, but only specific Ministers will be available each day to speak to their indicated portfolios only. The Government has indicated that the Minister for the Environment and for Oceans and Fisheries, the Minister of Energy and Resources, and the Minister of Health will be available today. Each debate will be led by a call from the chairperson or member of the committee that considered the Estimates most closely related to the Minister\u2019s portfolios.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EThis debate expires after 11 hours, at which point questions will be put that the Votes stand part of the schedules and of the provisions of the Appropriation (2021/22 Estimates) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EThe questions is that the Votes contained in the Estimates of Appropriations for 2021/22 stand part of the schedules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227171751e2f5e4d9096e29ada09890274\u0022\u003EEnvironment and Oceans and Fisheries\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe7cdaa817174c058e7794e862eb1995\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe7cdaa817174c058e7794e862eb1995\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Chairperson of the Environment Committee):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Mr Chair. As chair of the Environment Committee, I will take a brief call on the Votes that the committee considered, and that was for the 2021-22 Estimates: Vote Conservation, Vote Environment, and Vote Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment. The committee was very pleased to welcome back Minister Kiritapu Allan from medical leave, and we also heard from the Acting Minister Verrall.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThere is an $800 million allocation for Vote Conservation in 2020-2021. That is a major increase\u2014a doubling on what that vote was in 2017-2018 under the last Government. It\u2019s also an increase for this year on what was allocated last year. The committee was particularly interested in Jobs for Nature, and the $500 million that Te Papa Atawhai is responsible for as part of that $1.3 billion programme. The department is responsible for three major initiatives there: enhancing biodiversity outcomes on public and private land; pest management, including Predator Free Aotearoa; and supporting employment through projects on conservation land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe Minister highlighted that there were 173 Jobs for Nature projects under way or at various stages of approval. This programme is about both increasing conservation knowledge, people\u2019s connection with conservation, and providing jobs and skills that will long outlast the programme. There are projects that we heard were very diverse, from wilding conifer control in the Craigieburn Range to a big project in South Auckland around urban landscaping. The committee was particularly interested in the accountability measures that the department is using to track progress in spending. I would encourage anyone interested in any of the Votes to have a look at the questions which the committee asked. In Conservation, the committee asked some 358 questions of Te Papa Atawhai, and in Vote Environment, 273 questions of the Ministry for the Environment. The answers to those questions really flesh out a lot of the agencies\u2019 work that\u2019s proposed over the coming year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EJust in Vote Conservation, the committee was also interested in Predator Free New Zealand\u2014the big expansion in that programme in South Westland in the Whataroa area. The director-general highlighted the gains that have been made in predator control, both there and in areas like k\u014Dkako in Pureora, where this sustained investment that Government is making in predator control over several years is showing significant improvements in the status of a lot of our threatened species. Going back right to the 1990s, for example, where we only had 830 breeding pairs of k\u014Dkako throughout the North Island, now there are some 2,000 breeding pairs. The committee was also interested in a lot of predators like feral cats\u2014the seriousness of the problem of feral cats, both in terms of their direct predation and the impacts of toxoplasmosis. We also heard about the work the department was doing to reduce its climate emissions: a 40 percent reduction in air travel in the last financial year, and a ban on the purchase of internal combustion engines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to acknowledge the work of the outgoing Director-General of Conservation, Lou Sanson, who will be standing down in September. He has been the Director-General of Te Papa Atawhai for eight years and been with the department in other roles before that. He\u2019s worked with at least five Ministers and he has led the department with huge enthusiasm and commitment to conservation, and a very deep knowledge of the department\u2019s mahi. He has engaged with people and place and really got the department to be much more outward-looking and much more focused on its Treaty partnership.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EIn terms of Vote for the Environment, it\u2019s got an appropriation of $1.73 billion. The bulk of this, of course, is due to the allocation of New Zealand emission units and provision for impairment of debt for climate change - related activities. The Ministry for the Environment has an appropriation of $382 million within that, and the committee considered quite a wide range of issues in terms of the ministry and the Minister\u2019s work programme here\u2014$132 million is allocated over several years for reform of the resource management system, with $35 million of that in the current financial year. The Minister highlighted that a lot of this will be used to improve implementation of the reform legislation through the development of a national planning framework, and working in the national policy statements and national environmental standards under that. Waste comes within this area. Of course, the landfill levy has been increased from $10 to $20 a tonne for municipal landfills from 1 July. That will lead to quite a significant increase in funding for allocation to reducing waste to landfill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022d9e5b9a5614d41e0ab2ffbc177af8780\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d9e5b9a5614d41e0ab2ffbc177af8780\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d like to ask the Minister: how much of the special allocation in Vote Environment funding for delivering his new resource management system will be spent on more staff at the Ministry for the Environment? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022916863a36a904927b010aba7dbe836b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022916863a36a904927b010aba7dbe836b1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I can\u2019t give the member an accurate figure on that. If he cares to put down a question in writing, I can give him that information. I am happy, though, to accept that it\u2019s a big piece of work and that it has required the department to engage more personnel in order to land it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s general agreement across society and, I think, across this House that the Resource Management Act (RMA) is past its use-by date. If you chunk it down, it really hasn\u2019t delivered. It takes too long, it costs too much, and it hasn\u2019t protected the environment. In respect of it taking too long and not having good development outcomes, you don\u2019t really need to look much further than some of the problems that we\u2019ve had in housing. Although they\u2019re very complex problems caused by a lack of infrastructure, a lack of trained workforce, and various other contributing factors, it\u2019s also true that in a country that\u2019s got low population densities, we\u2019ve got very high land prices. That\u2019s in part been caused by the way in which the RMA has been implemented, and although there are some fixes on the way to that through the national policy statement under the RMA, the RMA hasn\u2019t delivered the competitive land markets that we\u2019ve needed. So we think, for reasons of housing as well as environmental protection and enabling development like infrastructure, there is a need to start again rather than just make yet another complex amendment to the existing RMA. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENow, given that the RMA is a cornerstone piece of legislation for the way in which we manage both development land use and the protection of the environment, it\u2019s important that that be done properly, and that is a complex task. I\u2019m sure this will come up in further questions, but our proposal is to replace the RMA with the Natural and Built Environments Act, another piece of legislation that will have spatial planning on a regional level called the Strategic Planning Act, and\u2014to a certain extent separate\u2014a piece of legislation that helps us to adapt to the effects of climate change, and no doubt other questions will arise as to some of the details of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00221d2d01caba94477a8293608c47b426cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d2d01caba94477a8293608c47b426cf\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E How much of that special funding will be spent on converting existing national environmental standards and national policy statements into his new proposed national planning framework?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9b64849301b49ab8058742d7ce44b16\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9b64849301b49ab8058742d7ce44b16\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I would say a small but important fraction. The new system moves from managing effects to trying to manage for outcomes. One of the problems environmentally under the RMA that there\u2019s a general consensus on is that the \u201Cavoid\u201D, \u201Cremedy\u201D, and/or \u201Cmitigate\u201D language of the RMA in the end, in respect of impacts from land use on things like water, ended up being mainly \u201Cmitigate\u201D, and the effect of mitigated increases in intensity and land use cumulatively amounted to very significant degradations in water. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn order to overcome that, we think that there\u2019s a need to manage to bottom lines. In truth, those bottom lines in respect of water are now largely coming through the National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management that was promulgated last year. That will be transitioned into the new system and will be an example of the bottom lines that the system will be managed for. It is complex, because in some instances you\u2019ve got this tension between strictness of bottom lines and the need to sometimes have exceptions. This has been made clear in a mistake that I was partly responsible for in respect of wetland rules in the National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management, where we probably went a bit hard and chose a prohibited status for nixing of any wetlands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENow, we do need to be very careful that we don\u2019t lose a lot more wetlands in New Zealand, because, you know, we\u2019ve lost more than 90 percent of the wetlands that used to exist, including national parks. Outside of national parks, it\u2019s even worse. But that wetland exception shows that we didn\u2019t get it quite right and we\u2019re in the process of fixing\u2014it shows that there is the need occasionally for an exception from the bottom line. We don\u2019t want to lose more wetlands, but occasionally you have to; for example, for infrastructure or for a quarry expansion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENow, how we\u2019re going to manage that in the new system through the national planning framework is that we think that there will be national direction and a positive direction in respect of infrastructure developments so that we make explicit that on occasions the national planning framework, which will include the transitioning in of existing national environmental standards and national planning statements\u2014there will be exceptions that are necessary for infrastructure on occasions, and that\u2019ll also be articulated in the national planning framework.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9ec6f93b36d4cefbc6ac194968c2d7c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9ec6f93b36d4cefbc6ac194968c2d7c\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Total staff numbers at the Ministry for the Environment have increased from 349, when he first became a Minister, to 492 in the 2020 year. That\u2019s a 41 percent increase in just three years. Why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee8ac1ccceb14e65bc59e8cfcde10736\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee8ac1ccceb14e65bc59e8cfcde10736\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Because, sadly, New Zealand\u2019s view of ourselves as being good custodians of environmental outcomes has been found to be wanting and there is a desire amongst New Zealanders to do better in a number of areas. Fresh water is one of those areas. There are more people that are employed in assisting regional councils to halt the decline in the quality of fresh water. When we came to office, sadly, more than half of the monitored sites that people swim in in summer are not safe to swim in and put your head under, according to World Health Organization guidelines. So there was obviously a need to do better in respect of oversight by the ministry of freshwater outcomes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe Hon Eugenie Sage mentioned in her contribution the work that is being done in respect of waste. New Zealand has, I think\u2014we are one of, if not, the highest per capita contributors to landfills on a kilograms or tonnes of waste per person per annum in the world, in the OECD, and so we also need to make progress on waste. So we are doing a lot of work in that space, including updating the relevant legislative code, as well as bringing forward recycling initiatives so that we have more recycling and move closer to a circular economy and less going to landfill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThen, of course, within the numbers that the member quotes, although they\u2019re not within my vote, Vote Climate Change has also had an increase in personnel to deal with the zero carbon bill and the very difficult transition that we have as a country\u2014achievable, but quite technically difficult in order to advance towards a low carbon economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022a41aa9a37b5745c08c86ea9468522a5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a41aa9a37b5745c08c86ea9468522a5c\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E The Minister has often said that his freshwater reforms will be achieved within a generation. How many years does the Minister define as being a generation for the purposes of his timetable?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc3e0101128e4d32b2f1b08e0e1b7518\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc3e0101128e4d32b2f1b08e0e1b7518\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E There are two main parts. Well, actually, there are three main parts to the changes\u2014actually, there are four; I\u2019m going to list the four changes\u2014to our freshwater reforms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe first was a change to the Resource Management Act to change the way in which water plans are made. That has been legislated. We have a Freshwater Commissioner\u2014currently Peter Skelton, a long-serving judge, Professor of Planning, and one of the commissioners that the National Party appointed to Environment Canterbury, and a very capable man. With his oversight, we are running a new process to help councils put in place good freshwater plans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe second part was a national environment standard, which has near instant effect, which has some bottom-line rules that everyone has to adhere to and that, effectively, go like regulations directly into plans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe third part that the member, I think, is mainly referring to there\u2014the fourth part being regulations relating to fencing and things, which I won\u2019t go into in detail\u2014but the third part, which does take some time, is what communities, through their regional councils, want to do in their plans in order to achieve the requirements of the national policy statement on freshwater management. There are various ways that councils can address their issues. It\u2019s for them to decide how they\u2019re going to bring their river health and lake health up to the levels that are prescribed by the legislation, and they do that through plans. And then those plans, once they are in place, give a transition to improve things. We\u2019ve said that we think the improvements back to swimmability and ecological health should take a generation. We actually haven\u2019t defined that; we\u2019ve left that to councils to work out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022685f6c7cb3b0454481b644883ce20a3c\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s why I asked the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d018dde49084e3bbe227473197e4b0b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we could have prescribed it, but it will differ. In some areas, they\u2019ve got bigger challenges than others and they might take a little longer. But I think most people think of a generation as 20 or 30 years. From my perspective, the most important thing is to get things on the right trajectory, and then I think we\u2019ll be able to relax a little bit and take the time to get back to the state of rivers that we used to enjoy as a country 20 or 30 years ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u00224a65756090cf4918af645838946a0c25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a65756090cf4918af645838946a0c25\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019d like to turn to oceans and fisheries. The Minister recently released seven Cabinet papers and announced the vision, objectives, and principles for the oceans and fisheries portfolio. I would be interested in how the Government\u2019s vision of ensuring the long-term health and resilience of ocean and coastal ecosystems, including the role of fisheries, is to be implemented, because there doesn\u2019t appear to be any specific funding allocated in the Budget for the Oceans Secretariat. And in terms of the appropriation for fisheries in 2021-2022, it\u2019s still at $72.6 million, which was actually less than was spent last year. So the questions are: what expectations and outcomes does the Minister have for the Oceans Secretariat, what does he expect it and its parent agencies to have produced by the end of the financial year, and how is the vision going to be implemented if there is no specific funding provided? And, if I\u2019m missing something, has some funding been provided?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002256f5c40cd29c441c809b409ff7c9929a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002256f5c40cd29c441c809b409ff7c9929a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E The objectives that we also announced when we set out the vision that the member has just quoted is to promote an ecosystem-based approach to research, monitoring, and management. Of course, there\u2019s already money in the system to do that if we just take a more ecosystem approach to its allocation. To establish a spatial planning framework that optimises the protection and use of marine space and resources\u2014our most recent example of that was our response to Sea Change, where we\u2019ve protected various parts of the Hauraki Gulf, restricted trawling to trawl corridors, and had various other quite complex changes to fishing rules. And the third objective was to support the development of a high marine economy that provides equitable wellbeing benefits. And there are various principles that underlie that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of some of the changes that we\u2019re already making in this regard, we of course have the benefit of the report of the Chief Science Advisor that came out earlier this year. We\u2019ve already begun implementing some of the recommendations in that report. I think the three most notable ones that we\u2019ve announced so far this year are cameras on boats\u2014cameras on boats were supported by the prior National Government, following operations Achilles and Hippocamp, which showed high levels of illegal activity in the fishing industry, and also high levels of legal dumping of fish as well. The illegal, unreported dumping of fish was of great concern to the then Minister, Hon Nathan Guy, who said that we needed to use technology to bring transparency to these practices. Unfortunately, neither National nor we were able to, in our first term of Government, fund all cameras in boats, although we did fund some cameras on boats for boats fishing in the areas of the M\u0101ui dolphin, but we\u2019ve now funded that for approximately 300 vessels, which I think covers more than 80 percent of the in-shore fishery by volume of catch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe second thing we\u2019ve done is we\u2019re, essentially, banning, with an exceptions regime, the discarding of fish. So if you catch it, you\u2019ve got to land it as a commercial fisher, with some limited exceptions\u2014the likes of spiny dogfish that ammoniate and damage other fish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EAnd the third change that we\u2019re making that\u2019s significant is we\u2019re changing the penalties regime as a consequence of that transparency and change to some of those other rules. So those are some examples of progress that we\u2019re already making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u002247c4eea28bb64207ab10dbb39fccf290\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247c4eea28bb64207ab10dbb39fccf290\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E So can the Minister confirm that the Department of Conservation, and the Ministry for the Environment, and Fisheries New Zealand will be doing all of this work from their existing baselines and that no new funding has been allocated in Budget 2021 to implement this oceans vision?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00227ab8fdb5849749d592d6588cc10721b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ab8fdb5849749d592d6588cc10721b5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. And they already had obligations in that, regardless. There\u2019s a new way of organising them to do that work. But the member is correct that there\u2019s no additional funding for that particular part of the work. The cameras on boats is a $68 million initiative. So that\u2019s a large amount of additional funding going into related enterprises.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u002211840de5535c4dc88c9720356dadb128\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211840de5535c4dc88c9720356dadb128\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Following on from that, in relation to some of the discussion just had around fish stock assessments, I\u2019m really interested to understand a bit more from the Minister around that funding aspect, because I am a bit concerned that the fish stock management is not operating quite as efficiently as it could be. We only evaluated 159 fish stocks; 240 were not assessed at all. Of those 159 scientifically evaluated fish stocks, 28 were deemed to be overfished\u2014that\u2019s just about 20 percent. So it seems that we are saying that nearly one in five of our fish stocks are overfished, and I wonder whether the Minister could give some insight into whether he is comfortable with that figure and, if not, what funding arrangements under this current Budget will be adapted to deal with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022d549a056c13d4bfeac240bb8a49e7a21\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d549a056c13d4bfeac240bb8a49e7a21\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E The quota management system in New Zealand has worked reasonably well\u2014not perfectly\u2014to enforce rules requiring that fishing is limited to a sustainable level of catch. That total allowable catch is then split between commercial, recreational, and, actually, allowances for illegal and other causes of fish mortality. Now, overall, it\u2019s worked well. On some occasions, the research shows that when they do a stock assessment of fish, some of the heavily fished species have dropped below expected levels. The most pressing example of that recently in New Zealand was actually the tarakihi fishery. That is due for reassessment this year. I won\u2019t say much about that in detail because they are decisions that are yet to be taken, but there is, for those that are interested, a recent High Court decision where some of the decisions that were made previously in the tarakihi stock were looked at and criticised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWhere we\u2019re lucky in New Zealand\u2014well, where we\u2019re unlucky\u2014is we\u2019ve got such enormous biodiversity and richness in our fish stocks that, realistically, we can\u2019t assess every one of them. That might change in time with new technologies, but at the moment we can\u2019t. So we regularly assess the fisheries that are subject to the most fishing pressure. Sometimes, we find a problem and then we set a plan to rebuild the stock in accordance with the Fisheries Act. There\u2019s some good news around. The snapper fishery on the East Coast of the North Island has increased in abundance quite significantly in recent years, although there are still some local areas of shortage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2e4d686263b4967b74c0ad7c5e7f0f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2e4d686263b4967b74c0ad7c5e7f0f8\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. So, following on from that, I\u2019m interested in his view, then, around Snapper 8 on the west coast of the North Island, in which I understand they\u2019re proposing significant increases in the commercial catch there, some 1,500 tonnes of snapper. So what level of confidence does he have in that, given that, as I said, it seems nearly 20 percent of assessed fish stocks are now considered overfished? Is he putting that limit too high? Would a lower limit perhaps be a more appropriate step to transition through that? Did he give any consideration to different levels, or is that 1,500 tonne increase where he\u2019s been from the start with that? Also, then, what level of 28N rights will be satisfied as a result of that increase and change to that particular fish stock?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EWhilst we\u2019re on that, because I just wonder whether I will have another opportunity, I\u2019m going to also move into the recreational aspect. We\u2019ve seen more recently a lot of media interest and concern around the pink maomao, a recreationally caught fish stock currently not subject to a daily catch limit. I wonder if the Minister could give an update on any potential prioritisation he\u2019s given to putting a limit in place for fish stocks like pink maomao and whether, indeed, the Minister would consider\u2014and I\u2019ve been fortunate to speak to many recreational fishers, and they\u2019re always very enthusiastic discussions and lots of honest conversations around the size of fish, of course. But the feedback I\u2019ve got from those fishers is that, actually, there\u2019s no reason why we couldn\u2019t just have a blanket limit on all recreationally caught fish stocks currently not subject to a catch limit that would stop this sort of issue happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ESo I guess my question, what I\u2019m asking the Minister, is: will he implement a recreational catch limit on all recreationally caught fish stocks currently not subject to a catch limit, a blanket limit of perhaps 10 or 15? Surely that\u2019s enough, on a daily basis. That will at least address that issue in the interim whilst he\u2019s perhaps coming up with a more refined and more detailed consultation process to determine the accuracy of particular fish stocks, appreciating within that that we can\u2019t assess every fish stock, as he\u2019s noted. But is there any reason why we would need more than 10 or 15 for any daily limit on a recreationally caught species?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022b62c6fa9798e4704b69e7161d9c74bb9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b62c6fa9798e4704b69e7161d9c74bb9\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for those questions. In respect of the decisions in respect of Snapper 8, which is off the west coast of the North Island, in the main, those decisions have yet to be taken and we\u2019re consulting upon them, and so I wouldn\u2019t speculate on the outcome. There are 28N rights to be dealt with as well, as the member obviously knows, and those issues are being worked through. In respect of pink maomao, I mean, I think most New Zealanders were pretty shocked at the fact that the level of greed that was shown in respect of people who were plundering many hundreds of fish was legal because the regulations allow it. So I have sought advice as to whether there needs to be a change to bag limits to incorporate all fish, including pink maomao. Those decisions have not yet been taken, but we\u2019re considering them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00221eff01ca2df04c239dd3e296b36a8656\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221eff01ca2df04c239dd3e296b36a8656\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. To the Minister: what part of the resource management reforms that the Minister has announced will drive councils to lift restrictions on the availability of land for housing and thereby deliver more affordable housing because, if we look back to 2017, the Speech from the Throne was quite clear there was a commitment from the Labour Government to remove the metropolitan urban limit in Auckland. It was recognised as putting an artificial constraint, a scarcity, on the supply of land for housing. We\u2019ve seen reports that, for an average Auckland house, there is a $50,000 premium applied just because of that one planning restriction. We only have to look at Christchurch, in the wake of the 2011 Christchurch earthquakes, zoning a large amount of suitable land for housing. The average house price in Christchurch is about $550,000, whereas in Auckland $1.14 million is the median house price. So the question that the ACT party has is: how will the Government\u2019s resource management reforms deliver more land for housing and more affordable housing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002249605b72f8a7470ab1211eaee92b5bec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002249605b72f8a7470ab1211eaee92b5bec\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for the question. I actually largely agree with his proposition that artificial constraints on land supply have driven up land prices and that those increases in land prices have flowed through to the cost of all housing, because it\u2019s the marginal cost of the new that effectively leads the market. Now, the way that we\u2019ve approached that under the Resource Management Act (RMA) is through the only tools that we have under the RMA, which are to issue national direction requiring councils to make room for growth, essentially.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWhere I might slightly disagree with the member\u2014and I don\u2019t want to put words in his mouth, and he might actually agree with me on this\u2014is that actually, in terms of building opportunities, it\u2019s important to make them available both within the boundaries and on the boundaries of growing cities, so that we have to allow the intensification that will actually naturally occur if we let people intensify. We also have to allow a release of the pressure on the boundaries of cities by making more land available for new building opportunities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EHow we\u2019re going to achieve that under the new system is through a combination of national direction, carrying that forward; some positive national direction in respect of housing, which will go to some of those issues as to land supply; and additionally, signalling to both councils, to central government, and to the private sector where the big chunks of development are likely to come as a city grows. That will be done through the Strategic Planning Act, which will then flow through into Natural and Built Environments Act plans, and I\u2019m happy to answer further questions on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00227c034639cc954eaeb342d261b14def8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c034639cc954eaeb342d261b14def8e\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. So there are many environmental bottom lines outlined in the resource management reforms, and we already have a host of national environmental standards and national policy statements which constrain the use of land and make it quite difficult\u2014if not impossible\u2014to obtain consents for certain types of activities, which you have referred to, such as disturbing wetlands. So a question that the ACT Party has is how will the resource management reforms proposed by the Government make sure that more infrastructure can be built where it\u2019s needed and when it\u2019s needed without having a huge hurdle in terms of resource management consenting that currently means that really good projects\u2014like irrigation and water storage, for example\u2014fail to meet the regulatory test and do not get consent in the Environment Court, like the Ruataniwha dam, for example? So would the Minister care to shine some light on how infrastructure might be delivered better?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022b27c4e9bcf9747acb7571be2a6a45305\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b27c4e9bcf9747acb7571be2a6a45305\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E The Ruataniwha dam was declined for the reasons set out in the judgment, and that was the correct decision. I think that those decision makers made the right decision. We\u2019ve consented a number of water storage projects already\u2014or at least one; I think there\u2019s another in process\u2014through the fast-track consenting process under the RMA.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EMore broadly, in respect of infrastructure provision, there will be positive national direction in the national planning framework. There will also be shown future arterial corridors, for example, in a Strategic Planning Act, which will flow through to Natural and Built Environments Act plans, and they may well be then a permitted activity. Once it\u2019s come through those things\u2014and the controlling of the adverse effect is more likely to be done through standards relating to siltation, for example, rather than through bespoke rules and a complex application.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022115ee44b124541819c841d5fbfcdb6c5\u0022\u003EEnergy and Resources\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00224f964f14e21048f7a598bf6cde9f9e4d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f964f14e21048f7a598bf6cde9f9e4d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Meitaki maata. We will now move on to the Estimates debate on energy and resources. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022 data-id=\u00224cb5c7326bf14400be2475205a8d2bea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224cb5c7326bf14400be2475205a8d2bea\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE (Chairperson of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you for the opportunity to take a call in this debate as the chair of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee. For the benefit of the committee, I\u2019ll give a little bit of an outline in terms of what we heard from the Minister, Megan Woods, at Estimates, and then I\u2019ve got a couple of questions that I will pose to the Minister before, no doubt, others will want to pose their questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EThe main appropriations sought for energy and resources\u2014we heard that there\u2019s money in the Budget to fund energy storage, energy efficiency, and fuel switching projects that reduce carbon emissions from industrial processes. We heard about the work to fund the work of the Electricity Authority, which is a Crown entity responsible for regulating the energy market. We also heard from the Minister around the finance to expand the Warmer Kiwi Homes programme, and I\u2019ll have a question about that soon. We also heard from the Minister about funding for the work of the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority. And, finally, we heard about support policy advice in terms of the management of the Crown mineral estate. We also had a discussion about the Commerce Commission\u2019s study into the fuel markets, which aims to ensure New Zealanders get a fairer deal at the petrol pump.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EI\u2019d just like to pick up on a couple of those aspects. The first one I\u2019d like to touch on\u2014and I\u2019ll have a question leading out of it\u2014is the funding in Budget 2021 for the extension of the Warmer Kiwi Homes project. Now, as the Minister told us, there are a number of health benefits that are associated with a warm, dry home, and this appropriation in the Budget will allow for 47,000 homes to receive insulation and heating retrofits. Now, just to put a personal lens on this, in 2008 my wife and I\u2014I was actually working in retail at the time\u2014we had two young children and were in a fairly cold house, and we were fortunate enough to receive a grant through a community services card for insulation underneath our house, which was on piles, and also insulation in the roof, which was a scheme similar to this scheme. It certainly made a significant difference to our house, and certainly to our children and our family.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s quite often a discussion around health, housing, and education, how the three of those work together, and which is most important. Some would say that education is the most important aspect for our children, to create opportunity in terms of opportunities for them later on in their life; some would say, \u201CNo, no, it\u2019s health that\u2019s most important.\u201D; some would say housing. Obviously, the three of them work together, but I have a view that, actually, out of those three, housing is vital to get right, because if you have young people, children, living in warm, dry, healthy homes, you can then work to wrap around those services around the education and the health. So I am very interested to hear a little bit more about this programme, and in particular what sort of health benefits the Minister expects that this will have, particularly for our tamariki. So my question on the housing aspect is: what will this funding be used for specifically, and how will it impact on low-income households, particularly children? So what sort of benefits does the Minister see this investment having for our tamariki?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EThe second aspect I\u2019d like to touch on before I finish my contribution is the investment in the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority\u2019s programme with businesses. I\u2019m curious around what sort of programmes and policies have been successful in encouraging businesses to reduce their carbon emissions. Now, I know the Minister is particularly passionate about ensuring that we meet our Paris targets in terms of decarbonisation, and so the investment obviously links in with that, as we\u2019ve heard from the Minister in the Estimates. I\u2019d be interested to hear from the Minister in terms of, given the success of the first round of funding in the Government investment in Decarbonising Industry fund\u2014and I know there was a lot of interest in that from businesses\u2014what sorts of things does she expect the next round of that funding to support? How does she believe that this funding will support us, as a country, reaching our targets in terms of the decarbonisation and supporting businesses to decarbonise their work? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6243c0f8c2d408ba7232dcf780d2276\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6243c0f8c2d408ba7232dcf780d2276\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki - King Country):\u003C/span\u003E In December last year, Cabinet signed off on $100 million for the New Zealand Battery project under the shovel-ready initiatives programme. This money is provided in Budget 2021 under the multi-year appropriation, energy and resources investment in infrastructure projects. This money included $30 million for an evaluation of different options, and $70 million for a more detailed feasibility study. The criteria that Cabinet signed off for this $100 million spend included providing a \u201Cpathway to 100 percent renewable electricity\u201D. Since this decision, we have had the Climate Change Commission report, where the commission said that the 100 percent target should be \u201Caspirational\u201D and that the Government should consider replacing the 100 percent target with an aim of achieving 95 to 98 percent renewables. So my question to the Minister is: is the Government going to reconsider the objective of 100 percent renewable electricity for the New Zealand Battery project in light of the Climate Change Commission advice to shift away from this? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EIn her paper to Cabinet, the Minister said that to ensure the evaluation process was fair and robust and unbiased, she had adopted several mitigation strategies, including setting up a technical reference group. The Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment now have set up the technical reference group, and while a number of the members have extremely strong CVs, we were surprised to see the appointment of a Greenpeace climate and emergency campaigner and one of the founders of School Strike 4 Climate put on the technical reference group. Is the Minister satisfied that these appointments fulfil her expectations of this group that it provide robust, unbiased, technical advice? The second question on that is: were the appointments to the technical reference group sent to her for approval before they were announced? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00229c5d7368feb04c24ade409685c7c4994\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c5d7368feb04c24ade409685c7c4994\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019ll go through the four questions that I\u2019ve had put to me so far. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe first was around the Warmer Kiwi Homes. I mean, very good to hear very personal stories about how this programme, which is where we bring together our energy and our housing policy, and our health policy as well\u2014how they intersect. So this is a scheme that we brought in in our first Budget when we were in Government. It has been a scheme that has been very successful. In fact, we\u2019ve had to top up Budgets all the way through because we have met or exceeded targets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EOne of the things about this scheme that makes it different and marks it out from previous insulation schemes is that it focuses not only on insulating the home but also providing efficient and affordable heat source options for families as well. I very much believe that you can have the best insulated home in the world but if you can\u2019t afford to heat it, it\u2019s still going to be a cold home. So that is why I\u2019m delighted that we have been able to achieve our targets around this, and, in fact, last year, had to bump it up again. The $120 million that was provided in this year\u2019s Budget will see us add another 47,700 homes eligible for both that insulation and heat source scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s something that we are looking to combat some of the health challenges that we have in New Zealand that, frankly, we should not be seeing in a First World country. We see it very much connected to some of the programmes that we have operating under Vote Health, in terms of rheumatic fever. And we know that warm, dry homes are absolutely critical if we are going to combat the scourges in our communities, such as rheumatic fever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIn terms of the GIDI programme\u2014the Government Investment in Decarbonising Industry\u2014this is a scheme that is achieving very well for the Government. We\u2019ve allocated $279 million in the first round and that will actually achieve close to 10 percent of all the carbon savings that will be required under our first carbon Budget. In the 16 projects that have been funded to date: five high-temperature heat pumps, two boiler conversion to biomass fuel, two new biomass boilers, two new electrode boilers, four energy-efficiency projects, one biogas boiler, and four other technologies. It is achieving beyond what we thought it could. I mean, in terms of the 16 projects that we funded in the first round, it\u2019s the equivalent of taking 62,500 cars off the road. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo, I think, we can see that for $22 million we are looking forward to round two of that programme being announced soon, and being able to point to some equally good programmes. I probably note that some of the exceptional results that we saw in round one, I\u2019m not sure that we\u2019ll be able to replicate those in every round, but certainly there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll also address the question that was put to me around the New Zealand Battery project and whether we\u2019ll be revising the target in light of the independent climate commission\u2019s report. Of course, Cabinet has yet to consider the recommendations of the independent climate commission, and so that is something that we are yet to do. But what I also point the member to is: as well as making that recommendation around the 95 to 98 percent, the independent climate commission said that we also had to look at a broader energy target. So, while New Zealand may score very well on the renewable component of its electricity sector, our broader energy system still has a lot of work to do in terms of decarbonisation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI very much take the view that there\u2019s a dichotomy\u2014that we cannot do either unless we address the issue of the decarbonisation of dry-year storage. At the moment, as we all know\u2014and we are seeing far too much of it this winter\u2014New Zealand stores energy for a dry year in the form of fossil fuel, whether that be gas or whether that be coal. What we are seeing is that gas isn\u2019t performing as the system would expect it to this year, so we are burning increased rates of coal. That is not something that our Government is content with. It is not something that we are willing to leave a system in place where the only option is to burn fossil fuel to counter a dry year. So that is why we have invested in that $100 million battery project.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI\u2019m going to turn to the last question that the member raised\u2014and that was that the singling out of two members of the technical reference group, look, I find somewhat disappointing. Two young women being appointed to a reference group in an industry that is so male dominated, I am disappointed that this is a line of questioning that that member has been pursuing for a period of time. I am going to defend the CVs of those two young women. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo the young woman that the Opposition member writes off as a Greenpeace activist actually has a Master\u2019s in ecological economics. So I could say that is actually someone that is more than capable of sitting on a technical reference group that is appraising whether or not this makes sense both from an environmental and a business point of view. The other young woman that the member has chosen to target with her questioning is Isla Day, who was part of the School Strike 4 Climate. Isla is actually studying physical geography and biomedical science. She is a member of the Wellington City Council Environmental Reference Group. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EActually, I think that member needs to move herself a little bit more into the present and realise that, actually, when we are considering projects that do impact on our future, that are about climate change, it is absolutely imperative that we include the next generation in this. I\u2019m not content to have the usual industry players, which are largely not as diverse as the technical reference group that we have appointed to this. This is too big of a question for New Zealand\u2019s future, and one that I will make sure represents what the future of New Zealand looks like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u002290d2410b10f9476182236b9b0480150a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290d2410b10f9476182236b9b0480150a\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Chair. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. I thank the Minister Megan Woods for her answers so far, which have been very clear. Obviously, climate change is the single biggest issue facing all of us and there\u2019s going to be a need across all sectors for a considerable transition to a decarbonised economy, a decarbonised electricity system, and energy more broadly. Obviously, our largest area of energy\u2014fossil fuels is the energy we use for transport fuels, which is mainly used in our privately owned light fleet, the cars, utes, and vans that we drive every day. I bring this up because there has been a lot of misinformation out there, I believe\u2014and I wanted to ask the Minister some questions about this\u2014misinformation about the coal imports this year. I\u2019ve seen reports that coal is responsible for the majority of our electricity generation, that the increased coal imports are due to increased demand from electric vehicles. Obviously, all of this is not true, and so I just wondered if the Minister would care to expand a little bit on the reasons why we have increased coal imports this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EWhat percentage of our electricity generation this year is from renewable and the increased demand on the grid from electric vehicles? My understanding is there is enough renewable electricity consented to more than cater for increased demand, even if we had a 100 percent electric vehicle fleet, which we are very far from because previous Governments didn\u2019t do anything to actually incentivise electric vehicles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThen I have a second question, which is around the role that smaller-scale solar generation might play in the transition to a decarbonised electricity system. My understanding is that the Government has actually invested in some pilot projects recently. Community housing schemes and marae might be receiving funding for solar generation. And I was just wondering if the Minister would like to speak to the benefits of that and how much the Government is investing in that area?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u002281d853082460423ea0fb50db850053aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281d853082460423ea0fb50db850053aa\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s good to get an opportunity, while the Minister Megan Woods was in her disappointed mode, to ask a question. When she told me in written question No. 26184 that, and I quote, \u201CI find it very disappointing to continue receiving questions around the wide range of perspectives that make up the New Zealand Battery Project Technical Reference Group.\u201D\u2014can she elaborate further on why she as a Minister is disappointed to be receiving written questions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022cecd1c8f81b6452c9a2caebe45d73753\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cecd1c8f81b6452c9a2caebe45d73753\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. So we understand the Government is carrying out a $30 million feasibility study into the Onslow pumped hydro project. That is a project intended to provide for dry-year storage to replace what the Minister referred to as \u201Cthe failure of natural gas to actually support New Zealand\u2019s baseload energy requirements at this time\u201D. Although, the industry would counter that by suggesting it\u2019s not so much a failure of gas\u2014because we have the gas\u2014it\u2019s a failure of Government policy which makes it so hard to get the gas. But coming back to Onslow, that project would be New Zealand\u2019s largest hydro dam, would flood a Unesco-level wetland, and would cost billions and billions of dollars and take decades to consent and construct. It doesn\u2019t sound feasible at first glance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, storing water for a dry-year risk in a hydro dam has merit, but that stored energy needs to be close to where people and businesses need it, and it\u2019s been suggested by many in the energy industry that that is not the right place to store energy, because it\u2019s so far away from the main centres. That water must also be held as reserves for years and years sometimes, between dry years, without producing any electricity or revenue for the dam owner. So the private sector energy generators are now asking the Government and they\u2019re asking their customers why they would invest in new renewables and baseload energy generation when the Government might build an enormous hydro dam, take control of the electricity markets, and tank all of their brand new investments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWhat New Zealand families and businesses need right now is affordable and secure electricity and energy. So, Minister, my question is: what plan does the Government have for affordable and secure electricity if the business case for the Onslow dam project shows that it is simply not feasible?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce06c50acd68493b88a3f397bb6bc40c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce06c50acd68493b88a3f397bb6bc40c\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E I will address some of the questions that have been asked. There were questions around our coal usage this year\u2014what\u2019s driving increased demand and to put that into context. The member asked for the proportion: I don\u2019t have that proportion on me, in terms of the electricity sector, but I\u2019m happy to get that to the member at a later time. What we do know is that the provisional data for coal use and electricity generation for the second quarter of 2021 is estimated at 585,000 tonnes, for a total of over 1 million tonnes in the first half of 2021. This suggests that New Zealand is on track to use similar amounts of coal for electricity generation as the dry period 2005-08.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo I think that we can see that, when we have low levels in the hydro system and we don\u2019t have gas contributing to that, this is the way the system is set up to provide energy in New Zealand. As I\u2019ve outlined, this is not something that we as a Government are content to see continue\u2014that we simply must find ways in which we can store energy for a dry year, in a renewable form, which leads me on to some of the questions that have just been asked by the member that\u2019s just taken his seat, Simon Court. He\u2019s been asking why it is that there\u2019s been continued investment in generation when the Government is looking at providing a storage dam. There is a bit of conflation in the contribution that the member just made around generation and storage. Of course, the pumped hydro that we\u2019re looking at is not a hydro dam in terms of it being a generator; it is a place in which we will store energy to use in a dry year. So it\u2019s not in a similar vein to a Manap\u014Duri or a Clyde dam; it is quite different.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t accept the assertion in the member\u2019s question that we\u2019re not seeing investment in new renewable generation. In fact, we\u2019re seeing quite an uptick of investment in new renewable generation. We\u2019ve seen a billion dollars invested by private generators this year alone. They can see that there is a huge growing demand for electricity. As we move away from fossil fuels, we decarbonise our economy and there is that growth pathway for electricity. I think over $1 billion of investment puts pay to that assertion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat we also know is that\u2014and moving on to another question that was asked around solar\u2014it\u2019s actually dry-year storage that will unlock the real potential of some of our more intermittent renewable sources, such as wind and solar, in New Zealand. The fact that we can have that ability to release from a pumped hydro system will mean that we can see more of an uptake in wind and solar. Wind is a very proven technology in New Zealand. I don\u2019t think we have enough data on solar and the potential in a number of permutations, and that is exactly why we have invested the $28 million into getting data through trials on our M\u0101ori housing and our public housing stock. Some of it will be stored in batteries, some of it will go direct to hot water, some of it will be a solar array that generates for a community rather than individual houses, but I do note that we\u2019re still learning a lot about different capacities for solar at different latitudes in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo, for example, I opened the Halfmoon Bay School solar array recently, and that\u2019s performing at 20 percent ahead of the projections for the solar activity you\u2019d get at those latitudes. So we\u2019ve got more data that we need to learn and that we do need to make sure that we\u2019re understanding the full potential, because intermittent renewable sources will definitely be a large part of our decarbonised pathway. But we need to make sure that we have good renewable storage solutions set up there as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u00220f03cfba0e124adb8bb890653fdfcacd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f03cfba0e124adb8bb890653fdfcacd\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Minister Megan Woods for that contribution again and those answers. Another debate that keeps coming up in this House is around gas and whether the Government\u2019s decision last term to stop issuing new permits for exploration offshore for oil and gas has contributed to the issues with gas production this year. It\u2019s my view that there\u2019s no way these things are related. The Government has, of course, issued new exploration permits for oil and gas onshore. So that really does beg the question of whether the industry and the Opposition members in National and the ACT Party are just going around, you know, trying to draw some relationship where there is no relationship. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EFrom the Greens\u2019 point of view, given that the International Energy Agency\u2014I\u2019m not sure if the members in the National and the ACT parties have ever heard of this agency, but it is the world\u2019s premier energy agency\u2014came out in May 2021 saying point blank that Governments have to stop exploration for new gas, coal, and oil and new developments or extensions to gas, coal, and oil if we are to have any chance of meeting the commitments that all countries made to keep global warming under 1.5 degrees Celsius above pre-industrial levels. In other words, the International Energy Agency is saying that from 2021 Governments should stop development and exploration for not just coal but also oil and gas, because it is not mathematically possible to have a stable climate and increase the supply of fossil fuel production. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EWould the Minister care to comment on that and whether or not it is possible to respond to climate change and ensure a healthy, stable climate for our future and to continue oil and gas exploration, not to mention the fact that, indeed, there is no relationship between a decision to discontinue exploration for oil and gas offshore and the current issues with production and gas that are affecting fields here in New Zealand right now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022af5db5a2563048488b89121962c2e4f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af5db5a2563048488b89121962c2e4f3\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki - King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. To the Minister: given it is likely to be at least a decade before a pump hydro project is built, if it is built at all, and that New Zealand has experienced in the last 12 months an electricity system that\u2019s lost resilience from reduced gas production, has she received any advice on potential imports of liquefied natural gas (LNG) to New Zealand over the next decade? Following on from that question: has she set aside funding or requested officials to do any work on the potential to import LNG into New Zealand? A third part to that is: has the Minister received any advice on the economic cost and greenhouse gas emissions of importing that, and how would this compare to utilisation of potential gas reserves right off the coast of our own country? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022773b194a23d74c9f88e00d5b1c0b5db0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022773b194a23d74c9f88e00d5b1c0b5db0\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I do actually now have that data about the percentage of coal in our electricity system: 10 percent of that is there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIn terms of the role of gas going forward, I think the assertions that decisions that we made\u2014the Government under the previous term\u2014to end the issuing of new offshore exploration permits has had any impact on what we\u2019re seeing with production problems off a couple of gasfields, I would remind members that, actually, to bring a field to production takes far more than 24 months. They still would be exploration permits, so they\u2019d be a long way from being production permits. In fact, the Advertising Standards Authority found that to be a false assertion during the election campaign and ruled against some political parties using that as a line. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe assertion that often accompanies that is that there hasn\u2019t been any investment in our current fields and that that\u2019s part of the problem. Well, actually, we\u2019ve had over $1 billion worth of investment since we made that decision, and there is quite a sprightly spring season in terms of bringing rigs planned for this year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo I think we\u2019ve got an important debate ahead of us as a country, and I just ask all members of this House to base that debate in fact. I think we\u2019ll be far more served as a nation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThen, we had a series of questions from the National Party energy spokesperson which were talking about the lost resilience of the electricity sector because of the failure of fossil gas to deliver that security of supply that we need in a dry year. What I would point out to the member is that, actually, we\u2019re back now, in terms of our hydro lakes, to 99 percent in the southern system; 99 percent of historical average across\u2014no, actually, 103 percent in the southern system; 99 percent across the whole country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EBut we will keep experiencing dry years, and this is just why we\u2019re investing in that feasibility study around pumped hydro. I would have liked to have seen us start that work a decade ago. We would be in a much better position as a country if previous Governments had taken decisions that it was obvious were going to be required under agreements that they\u2019d signed up to around climate change commitments\u2014that we would have had to have looked at ways to decarbonise the storage of energy in this country\u2014but we have done that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThere was a very specific question from the member, too, about whether or not I\u2019m receiving advice on importing liquefied natural gas. No, I\u2019m not. I\u2019m aware that the Gas Industry Co. is currently looking at that, but that\u2019s not something that we\u2019re considering. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223ca9feca0896418d8798a022ce5a3028\u0022\u003EHealth\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00225b85bcffbc7d46ee8128cb3370231853\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b85bcffbc7d46ee8128cb3370231853\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: We will now move on to the Estimates debate on health.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022 data-id=\u0022a38accd3560446ff95b4c665f5e7c03e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a38accd3560446ff95b4c665f5e7c03e\u0022\u003EDr LIZ CRAIG (Chairperson of the Health Committee):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s an absolute pleasure to, as chair of the Health Committee, provide an overview of the health Estimates hearings for this year. Health is an incredibly busy sector. There\u2019s a lot going on, and the total appropriations for Vote Health this year were just under $24.4 billion. Within that, the Minister of Health is responsible for the appropriations of just over $23.5 billion, and also the Minister for COVID-19 Response is responsible for the multi-category appropriation called National Response to COVID-19 across the health sector, of $894 million. So what we did is we had separate hearings this year from the Minister of Health and the Minister for COVID-19 Response, and so today\u2019s debate will focus on the non-COVID appropriations, with the appropriations relating to COVID-19 and managed isolation and quarantine being covered in another debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003ESo, basically, we had a whole range of discussions in our Estimates hearings on health, and that included the upcoming health and disability sector reforms, funding and the roll-out of mental health services, quite a bit of discussion around cost and volume pressures for DHBs and primary care. We talked about cyber-security, we talked about improving health outcomes for Pasifika communities, and we also talked about capital and operating expenditure, and how we can fund some of that\u2014you know, our buildings and infrastructure. We also talked about progress on the New Zealand Upgrade Programme. We also focused on some of the new spending that we\u2019re going to be looking at in terms of expanding cancer screening\u2014HPV screening for cervical cancer, for example\u2014extra funding for road and air ambulance services, establishing an Aged Care Commissioner, and also extra funding for Pharmac.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EIn the time available, I\u2019d like to just go into a bit more detail on a couple of those, starting with the health reforms. As we know, in April this year, in response to the Health and Disability System Review the Government announced reforms of the health sector. This includes disestablishing our 20 DHBs and establishing two new entities: Health New Zealand and the M\u0101ori Health Authority. As many are aware, Health New Zealand will assume a lot of the functions of DHBs, taking over their contractual arrangements and their assets, and also assume functions of the Ministry of Health. The M\u0101ori Health Authority will lead the commissioning of M\u0101ori health services and co-commissioning services which significantly impact on M\u0101ori. So we heard that Budget 2021 includes $486 million over four years to implement these reforms, and that not only includes cost of restructuring but also includes the commissioning of some services. When the Minister was talking to us, he was talking about the fact that establishing these structures and looking at the respective governance and decision-making arrangements would need to be rolled out over a four-year period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003ESome of the Budget is for the Ministry of Health to establish these new entities\u2014Health New Zealand, M\u0101ori Health Authority\u2014and some of the associated functions, but there\u2019s also some other spending: for example, for Health New Zealand, some funding to pilot the local network planning approach that sits and underpins those health reforms, and also funding over four years for the M\u0101ori Health Authority. The Minister talked about how T\u0101 Mason Durie is leading the steering group of M\u0101ori leaders and having discussions within M\u0101ori communities about how the M\u0101ori Health Authority might operate. He also gave examples of, for example, screening campaigns for cancers that disproportionately impact M\u0101ori as an example of where the M\u0101ori Health Authority could advocate for policy that addresses disparity for M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003ESome of the members that were present asked, given that we\u2019ve got a big piece of work in terms of the health reforms but we\u2019ve also got equally big pieces of work around rolling out the response to COVID-19 and the vaccination programme, whether we could do both together. Certainly what the Minister responded with is that he\u2019d had extensive discussions with the Director-General of Health and with the Ministry of Health, and he believed that we could be doing both simultaneously\u2014particularly given that we\u2019ve got additional resourcing in Budget 2021 to assist with that. We also had a lot of discussions around mental health services, given the increasing demand for mental health services across the country, and discussed the funding of a number of various programmes. There was a range of other issues that I\u2019ve highlighted in the beginning of my speech, but what I will do is leave my colleagues in the Health Committee to ask the Minister further questions in these and other areas. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u0022f42f2077f52c43feb4ec1c72e8206bd2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f42f2077f52c43feb4ec1c72e8206bd2\u0022\u003EDr SHANE RETI (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s a pleasure to speak to the Estimates, which were held on 9 June 2021, and I\u2019d like to thank the Minister for joining us today. I\u2019m going to pose questions across five domains, a few questions in each. The first will be around health restructuring; the second, older people; third, dental; fourth, a question on Vote Health; and a fifth around Pharmac. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EI have three questions in the first area, then, around the health restructuring, which is what we discussed at the Estimates, which I\u2019d like to pursue further. The first is, he\u2019s received at least two papers identifying transition risks in the health restructuring\u2014my question is: what are those risks? What risks have been identified? The second question I have is: what are the indicative staff numbers for the M\u0101ori Health Authority, Health NZ, and the Ministry of Health in the restructuring? And my third question in this tranche is the costs in Vote Health were $486 million for the health restructuring, but in a written parliamentary question a few days ago we find another $60 million in the maternity health budget for health restructuring. So my question is: when we add up the total, not just the $486 million line item, but also these tens of millions in other places, what is the total number for the health restructuring? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u00229c1ff967e74c4f1592007eae4332ecdb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c1ff967e74c4f1592007eae4332ecdb\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I thank the member for his questions. Just in relation to what he describes as two papers on transitional risks, with every transition, with every reform, of course, there are risks. That is about making sure that the machinery of Government is geared up to get through the legislation, the policy advice, and then the implementation, and there are always risks around implementation. There\u2019s issues of capacity, capability, and competence, and we need to be alert to do those so that as we embark on the reforms, we are making sure that those factors are taken account of, that we manage the transition process in a practical, pragmatic sort of way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI\u2019m very satisfied with the progress that has been made, the advice that has come to me for ongoing decisions, and the advice that is being provided to Cabinet as we reach the various milestones. The next major milestone will be the announcement of the governing boards of both Health NZ and the M\u0101ori Health Authority, who will then be charged with making sure those organisations are set up. There\u2019s always the risk that extant issues such as the COVID pandemic cause further delay. If there is a further outbreak that requires a further lockdown, then that would have an impact on it as well. But at the moment, there is no factor that is bearing upon the implementation of the reforms. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe second question related to indicative staff numbers, and I know the member has raised this question before, including in written parliamentary questions. We know that when Health NZ is established, because it will be an amalgamation of the current district health boards, plus relevant staff from the Ministry of Health, actually its workforce will be in excess of 77,000. The current DHB workforce is 77,000. So it\u2019ll be that, and then whatever sort of transfers in relation to the ministry. In terms of the M\u0101ori Health Authority, it would pick up some people out of the ministry and they will pick up some people out of the DHBs, actually. But I can\u2019t give a particular figure, and until that board is in place, the interim board is in place, and they have an interim chief executive and they start the detailed planning about their organisation and how it wishes to operate and where we will be located, how it will be structured\u2014that will be a matter for them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThey have a budget for the initial phase. Their budget, I might add, also includes some commissioning funding, and that\u2019s roughly $100 million. They will do some initial commissioning as they get kaupapa M\u0101ori services expanded and further under way. And then they will be also setting up their co-commissioning arrangements with Health NZ. So I can\u2019t be more specific about that. But we will have a Health NZ and a M\u0101ori Health Authority workforce that reflects the needs of a modern health system delivering equitable healthcare for Aotearoa New Zealand, which we don\u2019t have at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u00222cf75e3640f44b4cb9678605d8bb38e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222cf75e3640f44b4cb9678605d8bb38e7\u0022\u003EDr SHANE RETI (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019ll put two questions together. One, in the domain of older people, the $385 million annual GP check that was cancelled. My question is: are the funds from that retained in the older people domain as a whole? We know the aged-care commissioner, I think, may have about $8 million, so that talks to part of it, but what happens to the rest of those funds? Do we have some sort of commitment that that whole $385 million is retained specifically for older people as it was in the original proposal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EMy second question is around dental mobile. The campaign promised that there would be 20 mobile dental caravans this year. They are not in the Budget; they are absent. How do we explain that? What are the consequences of that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EWhile I\u2019m on my feet, I\u2019ll actually just deal to a few other questions. I\u2019m interested to know if he received a letter from the Director-General of Health in December, talking about cost reductions\u2014or, more specifically, \u201Cmanaging downward cost pressures\u201D\u2014and whether items such as reducing specialists at provincial hospitals were raised, whether reducing the eligibility for aged-care residential and for disability was raised in that letter from the director-general.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EAnd the last question that I\u2019ll ask, which actually covers all of the domains I was looking for, is around Pharmac. I\u2019m looking for a guarantee that children who are currently receiving unfunded cancer medicines from Pharmac, and are receiving those medicines administered in the DHB system, that they will continue to receive their cancer drugs administered in the DHB system; newly diagnosed children with cancer, I\u2019m looking for some reassurance that they will continue to be able to have the medicines that Pharmac will not fund, at least administered in the DHB system. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022bddecb84cd9447b68be2260af2fcd0a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bddecb84cd9447b68be2260af2fcd0a3\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll deal with the last question first because that has been dealt with before and I\u2019ve been very clear that children\u2019s cancer treatments that are currently provided will continue to be provided. Pharmac is undergoing a review, that review is not complete, and they have been very clear that children receiving treatments at the moment will continue to receive whatever treatments they are receiving.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIf I go back to the first of his four questions in that slot, in relation to the money for the senior GP check, advice was very clear that that was not a well-targeted or efficacious spend of taxpayer money or health money, and so that particular policy was not proceeded with. We know that one of the major problems we have in our health system at the moment is inequitable access and health outcomes. So we are not going to fund more policies and programmes that just add to the inequity. We\u2019ve committed to an aged-care commissioner. In terms of the additional funding provided to DHBs this year, obviously they are negotiating their contracts with aged residential care, so there is an expectation that more will be spent in that sector as more people take up that form of care and the DHBs pick up a large chunk of that cost. So money is continuing to go into elder care or senior care. That does not change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIn relation to mobile dental clinics, no, we did not fund mobile dental clinics in this Budget, but this is a Parliament of three years. We are the Government; we have two more Budgets to go. So I invite that member to watch this space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EFinally, in relation to any letter from the director-general, I do not recall receiving any letter from the director-general advising on any of the matters that he referred to. I know the member is desperate to demonstrate that a draft of the letter that was provided is important; it wasn\u2019t. I didn\u2019t accept it. I sent it back. There has been no such letter as he indicated from me to the Minister of Finance. In the end, it is not draft letters that matter; it is the one that is actually sent. The one that was actually sent is the one that is reflected in the Budget that we have got.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022045ee4355c3446f087a553b22f86eb8e\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Yep, you received it. It\u2019s in your thinking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6b14d78732240418203997e42a36920\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member says, \u201CIt\u2019s in the Minister\u2019s thinking.\u201D It clearly isn\u2019t, because I sent it back, because it is not part of my thinking. But I understand when you\u2019re Opposition and the polls that you have now, you\u2019re desperate for anything. But the reality is this: when you compare this Government\u2019s funding record on health in the nearly four years it has been in Government to the nine years of the previous Government, what you see of this Government is considerably more investment not only in operational spending but in capital spending as well, because the reality is that we have inherited a public health system that has been so badly run down, so badly served by the previous Government, we\u2019ve got a major catch-up job to do. I\u2019m very pleased with the progress we are making. I wish it were faster, but we are making progress and good things are happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022cfa68a9c70a840e6ac08288d3bcb5fdd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cfa68a9c70a840e6ac08288d3bcb5fdd\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. We heard from the Minister of Health about\u2014as my colleague Liz Craig said\u2014the appropriations that weren\u2019t related to COVID-19. The most significant, I think we would all agree, was the reform of the health sector. In April 2021, in April of this year, the Government announced significant reforms to the health sector in response to the Health and Disability System Review. Now, its proposed changes include disestablishing the 20 DHBs, as we\u2019ve heard, from July 2022 and establishing two new health entities, both Health New Zealand and the M\u0101ori Health Authority. So when we think of Budget 2021\u2014as my colleague across the House, Shane Reti, said\u2014it included around about $486 million over four years to implement the health sector reforms. So I\u2019m wondering whether the Minister can talk a little bit more, or provide some more detail, about how performance of that appropriation will be assessed; and, specifically, what are some of the kind of key milestones in the implementation plan that\u2019s been agreed by Cabinet. And, I suppose, more grassroots-wise, specifically bringing it home, what can ordinary New Zealanders, everyday New Zealanders, expect to see over the remainder of this term in relation to those appropriations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee5f3b37bb7c4b40ace77e3ea3be4c33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee5f3b37bb7c4b40ace77e3ea3be4c33\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for her questions. I think, in addition to the $486 million to implement the health reforms, which includes funding for the transition unit and also for the M\u0101ori Health Agency and Health New Zealand\u2014when those organisations are set up on an interim basis, the member might also be aware, in addition to that amount of money, there was also $380-odd million appropriated for a significant IT upgrade of the health system. In fact, there has been further funding of about $116 million for another part of the IT system that processes the 90 million payments that get made out of our health system at the moment. So what we\u2019ve also discovered is that, in addition to rundown hospital buildings, a workforce that is stretched, and a workforce that is short of what it is needed, we\u2019ve also discovered IT systems that are simply not up to the mark. So we have to fix all of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWhen we came to the reform process\u2014as a consequence of the Health and Disability System Review report that we published at the end of last year that followed a very thorough analysis of the system; extensive consultation with communities around New Zealand; and a very close, considered study of our health system\u2014it\u2019s very clear that change was warranted. Change is needed. We\u2019re not getting the benefits that we need in our health system when it is disaggregated across 20 different legal entities. And it is no criticism of anybody in that system, at the leadership level or otherwise. In the end, people respond to the structure they\u2019re in and the environment that they are in, but the reality is technology has changed; the population is changing. Our health performance is revealing that we are simply not keeping up with health demand. And where people get health is changing as well. So we have to change the way we make health decisions. That\u2019s what the purpose of this is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWe have the opportunity now to get the best across the various 20 hospital systems that we\u2019ve got. And, for that matter, to ditch the worst. We have the benefit of scale, and that is going to be a real help when it comes to building the workforce and planning long term for the workforce. We will have all that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIn terms of implementation of those reforms, as I\u2019ve said before, considerable work is being done. The next major milestone will be the announcement of the governing boards. That will happen in the next couple of months. Those interim boards\u2014they\u2019ll be interim organisations set up\u2014their first task is to appoint a chief executive, an interim chief executive, whose job then is to start building the team that is needed to provide the leadership for those organisations. There will be engagement with the sector later this year and in the early part of next year as those interim bodies start to lay out what they\u2019re doing, what their plans are. There\u2019ll be an intensity of work, I think, from the beginning of next year in terms of systems, in terms of personnel, in terms of preparing for the cutover.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ll be working very closely with existing workforces across the DHBs at all levels to make sure that they are kept clearly informed about what is happening, but also what is expected. Where there are opportunities\u2014because they will arise before the cutover date of 1 July\u2014for people to pick up roles and provide that leadership, that will happen also. Then we\u2019re looking at 1 July as, effectively, the cutover date to the establishment of a permanent Health New Zealand and M\u0101ori Health Authority. Of course, in the meantime, there\u2019ll be legislation to pass. I expect that to be introduced to the House again in the next couple of months or so. That will go through the usual process and my expectation is that will be passed by the end of April next year. Then we will have a very clear path to the commencement on 1 July next year for the two organisations and the revamped Ministry of Health.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EOf course, that\u2019s not the end of it, because the reality is this is a significant shift for the entire public sector health workforce. So it\u2019ll be two, three, four years of bedding in processes, procedures, workplace culture\u2014which is going to be very important in establishing the leadership of those organisations. I have to say, everywhere I get around, every visit I make to hospitals and healthcare workers, everybody sees\u2014in spite of the pressures that the system is under at the moment, they are truly excited about the opportunity that the reforms offer and they are looking forward to seizing those opportunities and making an even greater difference than they do at the moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u0022a809b954b72f4c1ba045b39e2668e353\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a809b954b72f4c1ba045b39e2668e353\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te Paati M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te Minita. The current mental health system has been deeply rooted in Western science and it continues, like I said in my maiden speech, to keep my people sick. We know that New Zealand\u2019s health system fails M\u0101ori. We can see this significantly in the staggering statistics that M\u0101ori are overrepresented in. The Ministry of Health figures show there were 31.7 suicides per 100,000 M\u0101ori males in 2016, more than twice that of the non-M\u0101ori male rate of 14.3 per 100,000. The rate for M\u0101ori women was 10.1 per 100,000 in 2016, which was just over double the non-M\u0101ori female rate of 4.9 per 100,000 people. Our mental health statistics are getting worse and they\u2019re getting worse because the health system is rooted in Western science and built on identifying the \u201Ckiller Ds\u201D: disease, dysfunction, deficits, and disorders. Mental health funding is based on volume. The more sick people there are, the more money the Crown health agency rewards itself with, therefore, the \u201Ckiller Ds\u201D will guarantee your place in the funding banquet to feast on the disease, dysfunction, deficits, and disorders caused by this Westernised science model.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori have been conditioned to believe, through the Westernised science model and messaging, that we can\u2019t cope with life and we as M\u0101ori cannot fix our own problems. That has led us to believe that we can no longer turn to our wh\u0101nau, our natural support systems. As a result, we have been colonised into undervaluing our own systems rooted in m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori, our power to create our own oranga. This solution is in M\u0101ori models of care like Wh\u0101nau Ora, who received no funding in this latest Budget. This is backed by a massive body of research that supportive relationships and networks, motivation, fostering and building pre-existing skills and resources, focusing on strengths, connecting with wh\u0101nau, having high hopes and expectations, and being helped with a plan tailored to their needs are the key ingredients necessary for someone to overcome their struggles. These key ingredients are what make up the kaupapa of Wh\u0101nau Ora. Why? Because it is rooted in m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori. From experience, I have witnessed amazing shifts in the confidence of our wh\u0101nau through focusing on these areas. Therefore, all the M\u0101ori mental health funding should be devolved to a by M\u0101ori, for M\u0101ori approach to M\u0101ori kaupapa, like Wh\u0101nau Ora, to ensure effective, enduring, caring, and inclusive M\u0101ori models of care which are rooted in m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori. Thank you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u00227213e0dcf320431f8d7e9dbeaceec9ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227213e0dcf320431f8d7e9dbeaceec9ce\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you. I thank the member for his contribution. And, I think, what I take from that intervention is what we know is that there is a lot in m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori when it comes to health that we are not acknowledging, respecting, and putting into practice to the benefit of M\u0101ori. That is why the M\u0101ori Healthy Authority will not only have an essential role to play in leadership of kaupapa M\u0101ori health but also be implementing it as well, having the power to fund new ways, new services alongside the many kaupapa M\u0101ori health services that are being funded at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThat is about respecting\u2014I think, what I\u2019ve observed as I\u2019ve got around is those M\u0101ori health practitioners who have that amazing skill of fusing. They impart their Western knowledge but with their m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori, as well, and create very powerful and very effective solutions for their people. So, I think\u2014not I think, but there will be huge opportunity for that. When I get around and I meet the M\u0101ori health leaders, there is amazing talent ready to be harnessed and ready to make their contribution and make their place in our broader health system. That\u2019s just about recognising that when it comes to the human condition and humanity, there is no single way, and for those for whom both a scientific, a medicinal, and a spiritual response is required, then they\u2019ll have the opportunity to have that and have all that woven together for a much stronger response and, in the end, for the benefit of all Aotearoa New Zealand, a much stronger health system, overall.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022bbbd3ecc4073473e8d996c6e063b321a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bbbd3ecc4073473e8d996c6e063b321a\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Minister, I\u2019ve got two areas of questions that I want to go through: one around workforce and the second aspect around infrastructure. I have three questions in each of those areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe first is on workforce. In regards to the conversations we had through the Estimates process, how much in the Budget will specifically go to engage new healthcare workers, given the increase in workforce crisis, and has he been discussing this issue with any other Ministers? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EOur second question: has he asked the Minister of Immigration to expedite residency processes for the thousand or so registered doctors and nurses who are currently in limbo in the residency queue, and if not, why not? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ELastly, we covered in Estimates the ambulance operations. What I\u2019m interested in is whether he has received any briefings or correspondence from ambulance emergency service operators about staffing shortages in their sector? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022678c5919e79f407c8d2585dee4badf11\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022678c5919e79f407c8d2585dee4badf11\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for his questions. In relation to how much is in the Budget for new healthcare workers, can I just say this. First of all, in the last three years, this Government has funded an additional 3,000 nurse positions\u2014that\u2019s just nursing\u2014and there is a range of other additional clinical roles that the Government has funded as well. But the reality is, as the member identifies, that there are vacancies, and when it comes to the nursing workforce, we know there\u2019s roughly, across the DHBs, 1,450 nurse vacancies. Those roles are funded, but they\u2019re not filled, and so the challenge is not so much getting additional funding; it\u2019s actually getting on with filling those roles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a bit of a vicious circle there too, and I suspect\u2014and not just \u201CI suspect\u201D, but some of it will have to do with pay. That\u2019s why the pay equity claim is so important, and getting that into the next phase, which is negotiating it and then getting that concluded and in place, and the conditions. So we know that the hospitals, in particular, have been under extraordinary pressure, partly because of the shortages of workforce, and then the shortages of workforce relate, for some who used to work there, to just how unattractive it became. We\u2019ve got to address all of those things, and we\u2019re going to address those serious workforce issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIn terms of building that future pipeline of work, we have funded, in terms of the mental health funding, the longer-term work of additional clinical specialists. That work is under way, and we continue to work with the training providers to make sure that we are supporting that future pipeline. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIn relation to the immigration issues the member raises, and I have had the discussions with the immigration Minister to make sure that the ability to get healthcare workers and healthcare specialists across the border is as easy as possible. The reality is, with COVID19, it will arrive\u2014it is very difficult. But when you look at the exemptions granted to non-residents and non-citizens, of those coming across our border, 43 percent are healthcare workers, from your senior clinical specialists to a variety of others. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EFor those who are already here but who are wondering about either renewing their visas or trying to get residency, that is a piece of work under way right now, and, again, I\u2019ve made my representations to the Minister of Immigration. We need to hold on to those that we\u2019ve got, and I have had contact from many in that situation who are waiting patiently, who are doing an amazing job, and who we all understand that we need to make sure we have a very clear pathway for, and I\u2019m confident that we will. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIn relation to ambulance operations, the most recent advice I\u2019ve had was actually in relation to the negotiations with the ambulance service and the road ambulance service providers, so that is under way. We\u2019re renewing their agreement for a period at the moment, and then we\u2019ll kind of review generally what is needed. But we continue to support those ambulance service providers, including providing support outside of budgeted appropriations. So in each of the last couple of years, we have provided top-ups to make sure that those services have attracted the people they need to fill the gaps that they\u2019ve got and provide the high-quality service that New Zealanders expect of their road ambulance services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002234ec4a4e-60bd-4a4d-b211-10f9324db3ac\u0022 data-id=\u00225ef753f898f8434db7540dfe4ebc8335\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002234ec4a4e-60bd-4a4d-b211-10f9324db3ac\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ef753f898f8434db7540dfe4ebc8335\u0022\u003EDr GAURAV SHARMA (Labour\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E Change is never easy, and, especially when it comes to health, it\u2019s quite difficult. I just wanted to say to the Minister in the chair, Andrew Little, that we know that until the legislative changes are passed, the Ministry of Health and the DHBs will retain all existing statutory functions, powers, and accountabilities. How does Budget 2021 help DHBs to maintain and improve performances during this transition period?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u00223ad0daa5e8844be99b4416997a1461b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ad0daa5e8844be99b4416997a1461b4\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank the member for his question. The member is right: the existing DHBs continue to be responsible for and accountable for the funding that they get and the services that they provide, and we will continue to ensure that accountability through the usual annual planning and expectation setting process, and that is well in train. The DHBs have their budget allocations for the current financial year. Their annual plans are coming back now\u2014they\u2019re not all in yet, but many of them are\u2014and so they\u2019ll be examined in the weeks to follow and they\u2019ll be finalised and signed off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWe know that the big challenge is reining in the deficits. Pretty much every DHB has a deficit\u2014some are significant and some more manageable. All DHBs are showing a willingness and, indeed, are demonstrating their keenness to rein in deficits for this financial year, because they understand that their legacy as the current governors and stewards of those organisations and their part of the health system is what they leave to Health NZ in terms of a well-functioning, well-operating, efficient, and financially responsible health service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s where we need it to get to. The Ministry of Health continues to work closely with DHBs, not just on financial performance but on clinical and other organisational performance too, because that remains crucial even as we\u2019re going through this transition and as we head to 1 July next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u0022380a9512fbc14281ad70584fb83d5125\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022380a9512fbc14281ad70584fb83d5125\u0022\u003EBROOKE VAN VELDEN (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I have questions regarding mental health, and, in particular, the Government\u2019s response to the mental health crisis that is facing New Zealand. Two years ago, the Government committed an extra $1.9 billion for mental health over a five-year period\u2014$235 million was allocated to building new mental health and addiction facilities\u2014but we know that only five new beds have been delivered. So my question is: how many new mental health and addiction facilities are in the process of being built, and how long will it take for them to be built?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EWe also know that more funding, or more money being put aside for mental health, doesn\u2019t necessarily guarantee improvements in people\u2019s care. I would like to know, from the Minister, from the extra $1.9 billion that\u2019s been set aside, how much of this is being analysed as to its cost effectiveness? Do we have any details on whether the mental health service wait time has been decreased because $1.9 billion will be set aside? Do we know whether there\u2019ll be increased access to new services because this money has been set aside? Has there been a decrease in suicide attempts because of this money being set aside? What actions will the Government actually take to make sure that we have more accountability and transparency in where this money is going and whether it\u2019s being spent, when we\u2019re being promised that it\u2019s being set aside to help solve our mental health crisis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EMy last point I\u2019d make is that the Mental Health and Wellbeing Commission released its first report, M\u0101 Te Rongo Ake, and it looked into the response to He Ara Oranga, which was from the mental health inquiry. It listed that out of 36 of that inquiry\u2019s findings, on a scale of one to six\u2014one being the lowest; six being the highest\u2014that the Government\u2019s response has only got a one or two out of 23 of those recommendations. I would like to know whether that is the transformational mental health delivery that we were promised, or whether it\u2019s a lack of that delivery. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u002234ec3ae8a9d146ceb625060e959bffc5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234ec3ae8a9d146ceb625060e959bffc5\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member, again, for her question. Just taking her points seriatim: she talked about the $235 million for facilities, and then says that only five extra beds have been delivered. So let me just disabuse her of one thing, that the $235 million allocated to either completely rebuilding or upgrading five facilities, that work has been commissioned, the planning and design is under way, but no construction has taken place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo the five additional beds relates to the work that DHBs do from one year to the next to add capacity, or, in some cases, to reduce capacity. So if the member looks at the data over the last few years, she will see that, actually, bed capacity for mental health wards and mental health facilities fluctuates from one year to the next. Where we\u2019re trying to get to with the new facilities is facilities that offer much greater flexibility, because there is fluctuating demand. You want to have facilities where there is enough space to do the kind of projected, business-as-usual demand, but when there are spikes, that there are spaces that are flexible enough to be able to convert into therapeutic spaces where people can be located. But that is where we\u2019re going with those upgrades.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe member raises a very good question about the time it takes for capital works in the health system, and this is a matter of considerable frustration for Ministers, as it is, indeed, for patients, their families, and many others. But this is the system we\u2019ve got at the moment. If you look at the last significant mental health facility that was built, it was commissioned in 2016 and it opened for business last year\u2014no, in fact, I think it was 2015. So it was a five-year period. Myself and the Minister of Finance are driving work with the Ministry of Health at the moment to accelerate the time it takes to get capital projects that have been committed to, to actually get them built. I\u2019m confident we will get there. So we\u2019re working very hard to get those facilities built, because the need is there. Some of the facilities that are being replaced are kind of contrary to good therapeutic principles. So we need to get those changes as quickly as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe member expressed concern about whether there is enough analysis going on to, effectively, the efficacy of the spend. I can say, when you look at what has been spent, of the $1.1 billion that is the Ministry of Health\u2019s responsibility\u2014that includes the $235 million capital spend. When you look at, for example, the money committed for the Access and Choice programme\u2014so that\u2019s the additional services provided for those with mild to moderate mental health issues\u2014we\u2019ve added 520 fulltime-equivalent roles across our health system. In May, they delivered 20,000 sessions to more than 10,000 people. So those are additional services. They were services that were not available and not being delivered before; they are being delivered now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWithout the benefit of a systematic review, what I can say is the feedback from all quarters is those services are making a big difference. There will be a review, because there always is, of effectiveness of spend. That will, no doubt, look at the impact of new services. Whether it\u2019s possible to say that those new services have had an impact on, for example, attempted suicides, I\u2019m certainly not qualified to say that, and that might be a matter that might be reviewed at some point in the future. But in terms of actions for accountability, I would have to say that the $1.9 billion appropriation is probably the most examined and scrutinised appropriation in Health that there has been for a long, long time. So there is a considerable degree of accountability being demonstrated about that. That is good; it ought to be scrutinised. We have had longstanding major problems in our mental health services, and I am very proud to be part of a Government that has really taken the bull by the horns, actually stepped up to really take seriously the need to make significant change to our mental health services. It\u2019s a pity that it couldn\u2019t have been done before, but this Government is doing it now. These things take time, but there are good things happening, and positive changes happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u00225f42a50b8ec147dbb22de90d81b261be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f42a50b8ec147dbb22de90d81b261be\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, I have a small tranche of questions within the disability support area. Within national Disability Support Services funding, does this include any change in the $75 per day respite care payment? And if not, does the Government think it is acceptable for people who provide this respite care to be paid significantly under the minimum wage at just over $3 an hour for a 24-hour period? Is the Minister aware of how constraining that it is for families trying to secure respite care? Finally, in this tranche, are there any specific interventions planned within the disability funding to ensure equitable health outcomes for people with disabilities\u2014given, particularly, the shortened life span of people with disabilities? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u002296659754a05f439db317383a4c514f30\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296659754a05f439db317383a4c514f30\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank the member for her questions. What I can say to the member is that Budget 2021 provided an additional $399 million over four years for Disability Support Services. That is just to meet cost pressures. So we know that there is a significant need out there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI\u2019m not familiar with the arrangements for respite care. There are many different forms of respite care and many services providing respite care for those who need it. What we are determined to do is to make sure that the regime we have in place for disability support is not sort of pigeonholed as a health issue. The message I\u2019ve very clearly heard from the disability community is that they are members of the community. They have a range of needs. One of those needs is health, but they require other social supports and psychosocial supports and what have you as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThat is why, when we came to consider the Health and Disability System Review report, it didn\u2019t go too far in relation to disability support services. Myself and the Minister for Disability Issues, the Hon Carmel Sepuloni, commissioned a further piece of work, which is looking at the future governance arrangements for disability support to pay respect to the very clear message we\u2019ve heard from the community about their wish for a much better focused and much more representative level of leadership over the Government\u2019s support that is provided to that community. So that work is under way. It\u2019s due to report in a couple of months\u2019 time. I\u2019m looking forward to that, and I think the member can expect that there will be a new generation of leadership support for that critical area of support that the Government gives to that very important community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022b56d0807048d42ae8b6eddd60a29c244\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b56d0807048d42ae8b6eddd60a29c244\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I want to ask a couple of questions on infrastructure. First question: is he confident no DHB patients are currently being seen in buildings that have been deemed unsafe to occupy? Second question: North Shore Hospital recently had a significant power outage. It interrupted clinical procedures\u2014official information I\u2019ve collected shows that it was caused primarily by ageing infrastructure\u2014so is he confident that the Budget has enough funding to address critical infrastructure gaps in district health boards? Lastly, what additional hospital bed capacity is included in the Budget to deal with demand in the future, such as when COVID will be managed within our communities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022bcc83fed055947c49df4d58a0e735627\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bcc83fed055947c49df4d58a0e735627\u0022\u003EBARBARA EDMONDS (Associate Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the committee report progress presently and move to consider the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EProgress to be reported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228ccd293064ff4f32a16044acee7a3fe9\u0022\u003EReserve Bank of New Zealand Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226139d010245547719bf7458b82849472\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000481\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 29 June.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220b4efc40eddc4c4482e503ec84c19bbc\u0022\u003EPart 2  Reserve Bank of New Zealand (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00220fce933b41f5432a9c0390ee82b120d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220fce933b41f5432a9c0390ee82b120d3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Bill. When we were last in committee on this bill, we were considering Part 2, the debate on clauses 8 to 111, and Schedule 2 and Part 2 of Schedule 3, which provide for the continuation of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022d85f1c84d9db43d49f347f2b155bc74f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d85f1c84d9db43d49f347f2b155bc74f\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m rising to speak to a Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) in this section of the bill and to commend that SOP to the House. The SOP is in the name of Andrew Bayly; it is SOP 46. What it seeks to do is to reflect the fact that the activities of the Reserve Bank can cause fiscal risk for the Crown\u2014that is, the Crown could have huge amounts of money expended by the Reserve Bank within the current framework that is before the House, as we speak. It\u2019s National\u2019s view that the Minister has a legitimate role in managing those risks and that that can be balanced against the Reserve Bank\u2019s requirement for operational independence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EWhat Andrew Bayly has put forward in SOP 46 is a quite tidy framework, I think, in that it picks up and mirrors very exactly the framework for foreign reserves management that already exists in the Act. This is a proven mechanism and one that has met the tests for balancing that need for accountability and also that need for operational independence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EWhat it seeks to do is have the Minister and bank agree on a framework for how capital and financial risk management will occur, including things like, for example, the minimum levels of capital that must be held, the optimum levels of capital that must be held, and the ceiling levels of capital that the bank should maintain. Of course, the reason for this is that we don\u2019t think it\u2019s in the interests of any Minister of Finance to have the Reserve Bank able to put the fiscal position of the Crown at significant risk by incurring huge amounts of expenditure, for example, that were not expected by the Minister. So my question for our Minister of Finance is whether he would give consideration to this SOP, and, if not, why he thinks that the capital and financial risk management framework shouldn\u2019t replicate that found elsewhere in the Act for foreign reserves management. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EI\u2019d point out here that this isn\u2019t a completely novel approach. If we look at the United Kingdom, there is a statutory memorandum of understanding between the Treasury and the Bank of England, and that includes a target level for the bank\u2019s loss-absorbing capital as well as principles for determining which monetary policy or financial stability operations should be undertaken on the bank\u2019s balance sheet and which should be indemnified by the Treasury. In the UK, that approach is seen as reinforcing the bank\u2019s independence and resilience and providing greater transparency to the finances, therefore reinforcing the stability of the financial system. I would ask the Minister why such an approach as set out in SOP 46 shouldn\u2019t occur in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022ade5ab598791454cb5c1c1b6a13fe3ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ade5ab598791454cb5c1c1b6a13fe3ad\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member very much for her questions. Essentially, this comes down in many ways to a philosophical position here about the way in which the operational independence of the bank can be protected whilst Parliament and indeed the Government is in a position to be able to, effectively, set a framework. So what the bill now does is give a control for the Minister to set financial boundaries and, within those boundaries, for the bank to continue its operational independence. That gives the Minister a reasonable say, I would say. That happens after we consult with the bank. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThat power in the Supplementary Order Paper would weaken the Minister\u2019s power to set those boundaries by requiring us both to agree on those, and then unbalance the independence equation. So I like the clear separation that we\u2019ve achieved through the bill as it stands, where I decide the boundaries as a Minister and the bank operates within them, rather than muddying the waters of that transparency and independence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00228cf7c5afb310463ba8f8d137b0e49bea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228cf7c5afb310463ba8f8d137b0e49bea\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to Minister Robertson for responding to that issue. I think I\u2019d just like to take a little bit of issue with that response, which I didn\u2019t find incredibly compelling, but I\u2019m sure that the Minister will warm up in time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI think there\u2019s two issues at play with regard to setting a financial framework for the bank. The first one relates to how the bank is funded. The second one relates to the nature of expenditure that the bank may get into and undertake. I accept the need for independence around how the bank, if it\u2019s funded adequately, should be empowered to be able to go and do what it does in the best interests of New Zealand. So there is no issue around the bank independently spending what has been allocated to it, but there\u2019s the issue\u2014and this bill strikes at the issue\u2014of what is the appropriate framework for the bank to work within.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI think\u2014as my colleague Nicola Willis quite rightly pointed out\u2014this is not an unusual thing. First of all, the Australian and the Canadian Reserve Bank equivalents have similar arrangements that are a lot more crystal clear in terms of what the bank is able to do and what types of liabilities it is able to accept. Also, the Bank of England is operating under a similar mechanism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI think the key point, Minister, is the focus of the legislation is only on setting a minimum capital level. The proposition I\u2019ve put to you previously\u2014and, again, I\u2019ve tried to set it out very clearly in the bill\u2014is that there is sophistication around the types of activities that a bank should be able to undertake and that are actually happening even now with current arrangements, with swaps, interest rate arrangements, and\u2014heaven forbid, if we\u2019re trying to do this for 30 years\u2014setting up a bank with a new structure for 30 years, which you\u2019ve previously talked about, and then there are a whole range of sophisticated financial instruments. Simply, this bill does not cater for those adequately. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo my question is: why wouldn\u2019t we be doing what other established reserve bank frameworks in operation around the world are doing? Why are we so special, and why are we so simplistic in our approach? That\u2019s the key difference, I think, we have between this bill and the one that\u2019s been proposed in the Supplementary Order Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc81204331de4a568ee45f42ba9d1f25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc81204331de4a568ee45f42ba9d1f25\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Again, I come back to my opening statement to Nicola Willis, which is that in many ways, this is a philosophical point. I note the member\u2019s media release from earlier today accusing me, as the Minister of Finance, of variously involving myself too much in the affairs of the bank. This is, in fact, an attempt to make sure that we have a process by which parameters can be set, but that the bank can work within those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) that the member is proposing potentially could see a framework agreement going into a lot of detail that I am not sure actually is useful for the bank\u2019s operations or for the level of accountability that the member wants to do. For example, are we talking about what kinds of instruments or securities the bank might acquire. Is that the kind of thing that member wants us to be discussing, because if it is, the level of detail required for that, I think, is disproportionate to the value that we would gain from the kind of arrangement that SOP 46 requests. So again, I repeat, it is my view that setting out an ability for the Government or the Minister to be able to have a level of fiscal control but have the operational independence has served us relatively well in this context.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn terms of the member is question around other jurisdictions, there\u2019s a variety of arrangements, and I understand the point the member is making\u2014that the Bank of England has a particular style of this\u2014but we have always had our own arrangements, and they\u2019re the ones that work for us best. We look around the world and we see what works for us, but there are a variety of arrangements for how this is done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00224045a1cb3f4947e3ba986b4969925ca8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224045a1cb3f4947e3ba986b4969925ca8\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E So, just to be clear, can the Minister just tell me exactly what are the arrangements or parameters he can place on the bank, because as I understand it, minimum capital is the key requirement. But if there are others, it would be nice for him to highlight those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESecondly, what are the requirements or imposition he can place on the Reserve Bank if they do get into contingent liabilities, derivatives, etc.? Does he have the ability to place any restriction on those?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022a342c32dd4b64f91a19078066496db63\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a342c32dd4b64f91a19078066496db63\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Within the broad boundaries we can make some decisions about what we feel comfortable with. When it comes to the types of securities or the types of arrangements the bank might make within those boundaries, then, no, those are their decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022381631cdf5134a25b1fdd482ae00dd7c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022381631cdf5134a25b1fdd482ae00dd7c\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E I think the Minister is being pretty unclear, so let me just be very clear: what boundaries can the Minister set under the current bill to manage derivatives and contingent liabilities? They are, in fact\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df25e11b67bb4a48ab3f20bdec1d1154\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll come back to the member on that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a5a21677f1a4730a26937e12f92933c\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: OK, good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022 data-id=\u00220eac6307512c4758814e401e95c010bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220eac6307512c4758814e401e95c010bf\u0022\u003EDAMIEN SMITH (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair and Minister Robertson and my colleagues. It is interesting that the Green Party hasn\u2019t really got a view on what\u2019s happening here. We talk about a climate change emergency. Well, we consider there is a monetary and fiscal emergency going on as well. Mr Bayly\u2019s point is quite relevant in the sense that, just looking at debt to income restrictions\u2014this morning\u2019s announcement\u2014the UK\u2019s got an example of five times and we\u2019ve got an example of 10 times floated out today, and, let\u2019s be brutally up front here: this is a new regime, right? The original bill from the 1980s\u2014it may be a philosophical argument, but we don\u2019t know whether we\u2019ve got a New Zealand Motor Corporation construct here or a McLaren, and I think the country deserves a McLaren in terms of where and what it should expect from the Reserve Bank bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s be pretty clear: Gareth Vaughan was correct in the sense that the Reserve Bank of New Zealand is being moved into the international regulatory system, and yet we don\u2019t actually identify or even admit that there\u2019s other organisations around the world that now shape and form our policy. So the philosophy is extended to the International Monetary Fund, and it\u2019s an oversight for our system not to reflect on where the world is going in those regulations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EOne of the concerns that we\u2019ve had is just that this bill isn\u2019t modelled enough and considered enough and hasn\u2019t had enough public scrutiny to satisfy the next 30 years of what we think is an important consensus. In that sense, we didn\u2019t actually get a consensus across the parties, and I think it\u2019s absolutely essential that we reach some common ground in terms of more than just a philosophy but the actual detail and frameworks around the management of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EI mean, as an example, in the old days, you had monetary Government policy which was very much fixated on interest rate control, and it\u2019s sort of raising its head again as being the genie that has now got out of the bottle, and yet where in this bill is inflation linked to interest rate control? Or there is no actual mention of inflation, full stop\u2014I think I\u2019ve got that correct, Minister?\u2014and around the philosophy of price stability, you would argue that that has to be frameworked and included in this bill. Also, we think that the remit has politicised the Reserve Bank and its organisation even closer to Government policy, and we believe that that should be actually reversed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003ESo the actual wellbeing of New Zealanders is going to be affected by this bill and its framework. Inflation is distorting the economy now, and it\u2019s going to hurt everybody, from elderly people on fixed incomes to young people as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EBut the major concern we have is the slow erosion of the bank\u2019s independence. We don\u2019t believe that it can actually be just simply conceptually based. It has to have a rigorous framework, it has to have a set of understandable rules so that we can make sure that our international parties are sound about investments and risks that they take in this country, and also individuals and citizens are certain, as well, about the risks that it can achieve. We believe that the free market\u2014the sustainability of the entrepreneurship of New Zealand\u2014is at the very core of this bill, and, in that sense, we believe that the Government needs to act more reasonably in its construction of this bill and that it should be taken back and more work done on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EOne final point that we from the ACT Party believe is that a change to the monetary policy and fiscal policy relationship has become something of a political football, and it\u2019s affecting\u2014[Time expired]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022a364f6636da3459ea9ed0bbf985c0070\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a364f6636da3459ea9ed0bbf985c0070\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just to respond briefly to Damien Smith\u2019s points, and then the specific question that Mr Bayly asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn terms of the broad sweep of Damien Smith\u2019s comments: firstly, we covered this somewhat exhaustively in Part 1 of the bill, which is that this is the product of a long period of consultation\u2014the bill, that is\u2014and that it has been through several rounds of that, as well as the select committee process. I agree it would have been preferable to have had consensus on it, but the Government continues to believe that the changes we\u2019re making are important and have had a significant amount of and opportunity for public input. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn terms of the very specific point the member made about not mentioning inflation, just to be aware that section 8 of the Act has never done that. It\u2019s always talked about price stability and so it\u2019s never used the word, particularly. It\u2019s important that that is understood by everybody involved in the way in which the Act works to mean inflation, but we haven\u2019t changed that element of the language in the previous Act or, indeed, in this bill here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn terms of Mr Bayly\u2019s question, in terms of the clarification I sought for clause 205A\u2014in particular, subclause (2)(c)\u2014the ability to set out the Minister\u2019s expectations as to the bank\u2019s financial risk management would cover the material in the issues that the member is concerned about. So that would be in the hands of the Minister of the day to make that decision, and also we can define capital via subclause (2)(a). So my view is it strikes the right balance. I respect the fact that\u2019s not the member\u2019s view, but we do think it\u2019s got the right balance of us being able to set parameters as a Government and have the bank operate independently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022416825fcec9b4768938f8fa2c4326903\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022416825fcec9b4768938f8fa2c4326903\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Well, it\u2019s interesting the Minister essentially concedes there that there is a philosophical difference between those of us who are not in favour of this bill and the Government pushing it. The Minister says he reserves the right\u2014the Government reserves the right\u2014to be able to put through legislation that reflects the position that they take. What is at the heart of this bill, though, is the question about how much control the Government should have over the Reserve Bank, and I think one of the things that is interesting, if you look under Part 2, under the bank\u2019s objectives, they\u2019re clearly stated there as the economic objectives, the financial stability objective, and the central bank objective, and each of those has got a clear statement about what the bank should be doing. Of course, we\u2019re going to have a board now that will be sitting over the bank if this bill is passed, making sure that those are the objectives that are covered. However, if you go to subclause (2) of clause 9, it states: \u201CHowever, if an Order in Council is in force under section 121, the economic objective or objectives that apply under subsection (1)(a) are those that are specified in the order.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ENow, the problem with debating part by part is that we have in the next part, Part 3, provisions that give life or cause question around the bank\u2019s objectives. So if you go\u2014if you will indulge me, Madam Chair\u2014to that in order to make sense of what I\u2019m about to ask the Minister, clause 121 says an \u201COrder providing for different economic objective or objectives\u201D. So on the one hand, we have a bill that sets out in Part 2 very clearly the objectives of the bank, but then in Part 3 it makes it very clear that there could be an Order in Council passed which changes those objectives. Then clause 121 goes on to say that \u201Conly 1 of the objectives specified in section 9(1)(a) (instead of both);\u201D could be part of that. It goes on to say, \u201C1 or more new objectives in addition to or instead of either or both of the economic objectives specified in section 9(1)(a)\u201D could be part of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ESo what we\u2019ve got is a situation where it appears, and I\u2019d like the Minister to\u2014he\u2019s smiling away there because he thinks that he\u2019s got a perfectly reasonable explanation. I hope he does, but I hope it\u2019s not just, \u201CWell, we think this is a good idea and we disagree with you.\u201D\u2014not you, Madam Chair, but, in fact, the Opposition. But the question is: why would we have a part in the bill\u2014Part 2, \u201CBank\u2019s objectives\u201D, under clause 9\u2014clearly stating what those objectives are, but then we\u2019re immediately putting in caveats that say that those objectives may change according to the will of the Minister? If the Minister\u2019s got an explanation for that, I think it would be useful for the House to know it, and I\u2019d also like to know, if it is all perfectly reasonable and quite simple, why does it need to be there? If there is a board and the Governor-General appoints the board on the recommendation of the Minister or Cabinet, then why do we have to have this other provision in there that would turn the bank\u2019s head away from the stated objectives in the front part of the bill, because that\u2019s effectively what it does. I know that we can\u2019t at this stage in the debate talk too much about Part 3\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022603d734bd7f04c028b9717ef32ee4609\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014no you can\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1164b471019409aaf9da66906fc2908\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014but it is impossible to ignore the fact that the bill is skilfully written to provide the explanation for clause 9(2) in Part 2 in a part of the bill that is much further down, some 50-odd pages away from where we are currently supposed to be debating.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s a bit of a problem if we can\u2019t get some clear explanation at the moment as to what would be expected to go into those Orders in Council that might be brought down. The question is: what is it that the Minister foresees that might make it necessary for any Minister to bring down Orders in Council that would change the objectives of the Reserve Bank? That, effectively, is what is stated here. It\u2019s stated very clearly that \u201Cthe economic objective or objectives that apply under subsection (1)(a) are those that are specified in the order.\u201D\u2014in other words, changed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef9c2c322ce645619d6712e642ad0690\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef9c2c322ce645619d6712e642ad0690\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E To answer Mr Brownlee\u2019s question as to how this ended up here he\u2019s going to need to pick up the phone and call David Caygill and Roger Douglas, because these effective clauses have been in the Act from the time it began, with the odd word change here or there over the years, as the way in which, for example, monetary policy set has been changed. This bill isn\u2019t changing that, and the clause that he refers to\u2014and, Madam Chair, given the member did it, I\u2019ll also do it. The clause that then is part of Part 3 that the member refers to has not been used, to my knowledge, in the time that the Act has been in place, but it has always sat there for the possibility that there might be a set of circumstances that arise that the Government of the day considers it needs to do this: a crisis of some description; an issue that needed to be dealt with, be it runaway inflation or whatever it might be. It\u2019s not something I, as a Minister, have proposed; it\u2019s been in the Act in one form or another since 1989.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022cdf5e0ba52f44fccb29b0948f768cb03\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cdf5e0ba52f44fccb29b0948f768cb03\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to go back to that answer the Minister provided before. I think there are three questions. The first thing: is he suggesting that a contingent liability is a capital item? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7e402357ba64e62ad645d8822a1baa2\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c092272abbd49f0ac121906de018b40\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think that\u2019s what he was implying. So is a derivative a capital item?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc94c147f4d84cd08d4ab7699909f452\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Clause 205A(2)(c): \u201Cset out the Minister\u2019s expectations [of] financial risk management.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbe9e088459d4d679e2b84884552b278\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: So I looked at clause 205A(2)(c)\u2014so, if he\u2019s clear that he sees a contingent liability as a\u2014because, you know, that\u2019s what derivatives have. They\u2019re interest rate swaps, and, by the way, you\u2019ve had to appropriate $3 billion to cover the hikes\u2014the expected costs\u2014of all the large-scale asset-purchasing arrangements to cover the interest costs. These are real things, so, if he\u2019s implying or stating that a contingent liability or a derivative is a capital item, then I accept his argument that under clause 205A, it is covered. But I don\u2019t think that\u2019s the definition of a derivative, because a lot of those things\u2014even under tax laws, some might be classified as capital and some might be classified as income. That\u2019s why I think the proposition that the Minister has been putting forward is actually wrong, because, in fact, a lot of those instruments aren\u2019t deemed capital.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo even if I did apply his second response to my question, which is that it could be covered under clause 206, when I look down the list in clause 206 that the Minister referred to under the funding agreement, there is no explicit mention of anything to do with contingent liabilities or derivatives, which is the exact point of what I included in our Supplementary Order Paper, which is the level of direct or contingent liabilities the bank can incur, and other matters relating to instruments or securities that the bank may acquire or hold and which may pose a risk for the Crown\u2019s financial position. So that\u2019s my point. It\u2019s a point of definition, and I want the Minister to be very clear that he thinks a derivative is a capital item, because if he doesn\u2019t and if it isn\u2019t, then his argument falls away and there is a glaring gap here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00226446e55adb5145008219fd0becd09963\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226446e55adb5145008219fd0becd09963\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I don\u2019t accept the member\u2019s point. What I have said from the beginning\u2014and this is now me repeating this for the third time\u2014is that the approach being taken here is the same one that we\u2019ve taken with the bank over many years and in a number of different parts of its operation to set the parameters and then have the bank operate within those parameters. There is scope in clause 205A to be able to both define capital but also set out expectations around the bank\u2019s financial risk management. I accept that the member wants a greater degree of control or involvement in that\u2014I accept that point. What I am saying, as I come back to my very first intervention, is that there is a philosophical difference there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u002200ec6161fa654a4d99854bd966884103\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002200ec6161fa654a4d99854bd966884103\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E OK. Thank you, and I appreciate the Minister responding. I suppose the issue, if you go back up a level, with the large-scale asset purchase scheme that the Reserve Bank put in place and has just finished last week, does he accept that if the bank hadn\u2019t come to him as the Minister of Finance for an indemnity, could they have done that, and it would be refreshing to know from the Minister how much the bank has actually gone out and spent. I think it\u2019s in the order of about $60 billion, so it\u2019d be interesting to get the response on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd7f5d22a0c943ffaade6a569c8f8a40\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd7f5d22a0c943ffaade6a569c8f8a40\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, we\u2019re probably getting a little away from the discussion on the bill, and the member is asking me for my opinion. The reason I smiled at him when he asked that was that was, in the height of COVID, one of the conversations that we had. It was whether or not the bank could carry us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f6afc4817df497b94706e2d6ac710f8\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Why didn\u2019t they put it in under the legislation? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022930183f2351149c6b7936f710870d155\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Hang on, yeah\u2014whether the bank could carry us. Ultimately, the discussion we had\u2014and I take advice on indemnity matters from Treasury, as the member would understand. Ultimately, the view was that for the overall financial stability and security of New Zealand, an indemnity was justified in these circumstances. But that, to me, doesn\u2019t\u2014I don\u2019t feel the need, given the way that was resolved, to alter this clause to be able to deal with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAgain, we\u2019re not going anywhere in this discussion. You either want the parameters set and the independence inside it, or the member wants more control, which is interesting given that his colleague was accusing us of taking more control here. This is a clause that maintains the independence of the bank but gives the Minister the say over the parameters. I believe that\u2019s the right approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf887bc0e5c048a080c31847e23d98d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf887bc0e5c048a080c31847e23d98d0\u0022\u003ERACHEL BROOKING (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00223e00c93ccafe4ba8a4abf3329e1ab70f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e00c93ccafe4ba8a4abf3329e1ab70f\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Look, I won\u2019t perpetuate this argument, because we\u2019ve got another four Supplementary Order Papers to work our way through, but it\u2019s interesting that the Minister didn\u2019t answer the question. I think, if you go back to the original proposition, Minister Robertson, you said that you wanted to create a lasting piece of legislation that would extend over 30 years. I think the very extent of what we\u2019ve just talked about\u2014COVID actually may occur again in the next foreseeable future, or a different version of it. We\u2019ve had the Asian crisis, we\u2019ve had so many crises over the last 30 years that this is actually something to be expected and should be anticipated in the bill, and if you hadn\u2019t had that agreement, why wouldn\u2019t we put that into a bill, knowing what you\u2019ve just been through? That\u2019s the key, crucial point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe second point, and I will just say there is a difference between controlling what the bank does\u2014and no one, even from our side, believes that we should be getting into how the bank performs its role. This is about putting in a financial framework, which, as the Minister of Finance, you have overall responsibility for the Government\u2019s balance sheet, and it can have\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221dfac34b82d0400bbbcb23d1eb077e77\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! No\u2014don\u2019t bring the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d04d9b7538d4b8dbc13b8337881cb60\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister has overall responsibility for the Government\u2019s balance sheet, and some of these matters, particularly as we\u2019ve seen with large-scale asset purchase, is a considerable impost on that and it can lead to a huge increase. Yet the Minister seems intent on allowing the bank to just be able to do that under any circumstances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022cfe2250d9d4d4633afbb8db931f20ae5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cfe2250d9d4d4633afbb8db931f20ae5\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I wonder if the Minister of Finance might elaborate a little bit\u2014I\u2019m speaking to Mr Bayly\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) and the importance of it\u2014on why he needed to go to a recent appropriation of some $3 billion to cover the sorts of activities that Mr Bayly\u2019s SOP should, at least in some part, prevent. Was the Minister not able to tell us why he sought a $3 billion appropriation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225778c22df563495e97e594bcff8772bd\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259da47ae61814e87a16b0daf5a7de0ff\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: But it is a matter that relates directly to the SOP that Mr Bayly has got on the Table. Mr Bayly has highlighted in his SOP a potential funding problem for the bank. We know that the Minister has taken that action of seeking a $3 billion appropriation to cover such events that have occurred in the bank, and for the Minister to say, \u201CWell, it\u2019s not part of the bill.\u201D is absolutely correct\u2014the $3 billion is not part of the bill. That\u2019s straight out of the pockets of the New Zealand taxpayer to cover the sorts of events that Mr Bayly is trying to prevent with his SOP and which have occurred in the bank. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EIt seems odd that we could have a Reserve Bank Act, or a new Act of Parliament coming in to govern the Reserve Bank, that doesn\u2019t cover off the potential for these sorts of losses, which, of course, fall on the New Zealand taxpayer. So perhaps my question was the wrong one. Is there any way that the Minister is able to confidently tell the House that the sorts of issues that are being raised by Mr Bayly will not cost the New Zealand taxpayer in the future?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00226c8342524efb4a8f9ff72333fe06979f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c8342524efb4a8f9ff72333fe06979f\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E We have now covered this matter extensively over the last few contributions. I\u2019m being clear for Mr Brownlee: what the bill currently does is give the Minister the ability, through clause 205A, to set a minimum level, or direct the bank about a minimum level of capital, and set expectations as to the bank\u2019s financial risk management. The way in which we were able to manage the issue of the large-scale asset purchases was via an indemnity that the Government put in place because we believed it was in the public interest to do so. That is a way of managing the risk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EMr Bayly wants to manage risk in a different way by setting up a capital and financial risk management framework through a process that we\u2019ve covered in earlier interventions that I don\u2019t actually necessarily think will achieve what he wants it to do. I think that we can have confidence that the arrangements we\u2019ve got in place in the bill can protect us in the situation as Mr Brownlee has raised, and, indeed, we have managed it through a similar process and the indemnity process. So I don\u2019t believe that we are adding great value by the proposal that Mr Bayly has put in place, but I respect and understand it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI see what Mr Bayly wants to do here. I\u2019d argue, Mr Brownlee, that it\u2019s actually the opposite of what you were saying before. This is actually a greater level of involvement from the Minister in the affairs of the bank, not a lesser one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00224c1bd2cdcf39416eb853e200e3eccd60\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c1bd2cdcf39416eb853e200e3eccd60\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for me to leave the Chair for the dinner break. The House will resume at 7 o\u2019clock.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022302331a713934f01ac8ac2b663744037\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022302331a713934f01ac8ac2b663744037\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Ka te r\u0101, t\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa. Members, the committee is resumed. Before the dinner break, we were debating the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Bill, and we are on Part 2. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2e245f7411a42648cc5ce32d13509bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2e245f7411a42648cc5ce32d13509bc\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Nice to have that little break. We\u2019re now back into it, Minister. So this time we might talk about the second of my five Supplementary Order Papers (SOPs), SOP 47\u2014the criteria for board appointments\u2014and it\u2019s very relevant in terms of recent conversations we\u2019ve been having around Air New Zealand, Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EMy SOP basically says that given that this is New Zealand\u2019s premier financial institution in terms of oversight of the financial sector in New Zealand, it is essential that we get the right skill set on the board, and at the moment, we have this weird process in the bill. It\u2019s incredibly prescriptive about why you can\u2019t be appointed to the board, such as if you have a criminal record or all those sorts of mind-blowing things, so that if you were even thinking of putting your name forward and you actually fell within the trap of one of those, you shouldn\u2019t have been considered anyway. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ETo be appointed to the Reserve Bank is something that very few people will have the opportunity to do. It is a complex operation that the Reserve Bank runs. It needs to be run independently and it needs the skill sets to do it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo the SOP, essentially, says that there are four key parts of what the Reserve Bank does, and we need to make sure that amongst the skill sets within the Reserve Bank board, why don\u2019t we be very specific about some of those as opposed to obliquely referring to suitable skills? Namely, the skill sets are financial stability\u2014because, after all, as the Minister just noted before the dinner break, that is the other term of, basically, saying \u201Cinflation\u201D, and so it\u2019s having a good understanding of what are the aspects you might run to ensure financial stability. Prudential regulation: this is how banks operate\u2014the framework they operate, the capital adequacy framework, and all that sort of thing. Macro-prudential tools: again, you\u2019ve just announced today, Minister, that you\u2019re going to\u2014and I\u2019m talking about the Minister here. The Minister is going to allow the Reserve Bank to look at debt to income restrictions. There is also crisis management and resolution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EWe just think it\u2019s absolutely essential that we be clear on what are the skill sets of board members, and I\u2019d just very much like to understand from the Minister why he is not prepared to be that explicit about the skill set. It doesn\u2019t mean that people can\u2019t go on for other reasons, and we expect that there will be a diversity on the board and all those other good things. But why not be very clear about what the board should have in its skill set, as opposed to saying why you can\u2019t be on the board? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00225c32f9d5880f434195e1950c29c08afc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c32f9d5880f434195e1950c29c08afc\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for his questions and for putting forward his Supplementary Order Paper 47, but I genuinely don\u2019t think it\u2019s needed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo if we track this through, clause 28\u2014or, actually, it starts at clause 24 with the board\u2019s role, the membership of the board, the method of appointment, the criteria for recommendations, qualifications, etc., etc. The critical clause for the member\u2019s concern that he\u2019s just raised is clause 28(2), which says, \u201CThe Minister may only recommend a person who, in the Minister\u2019s opinion, has the appropriate knowledge, skills, and experience to assist the Bank to achieve its objectives and performance functions.\u201D Those functions are, in turn, listed in clause 10(1) of the bill, and those functions are \u201Cto act as the central bank for New Zealand, \u2026 to act as a prudential regulator and supervisor\u201D, and it goes through all of those things, all the way from paragraph (a) through to paragraph (j). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo all one needs to do is refer from clause 28 back to clause 10 of the bill, and all of the things that the member is concerned about\u2014and, in fact, more than the member is concerned about\u2014are covered. It is a reasonably normal form of drafting to be able to suggest what we want the board members to do, but the functions are outlined because they are functions for the Act and they are, therefore, functions for the bank. So the member need not be concerned about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EOn his concern about what you do when you don\u2019t want someone on the board, again, these are very familiar clauses that are put in place in these kinds of bodies where you are appointing a board and you want to make sure that there are reasons why someone shouldn\u2019t be on it. The reasons why someone should be on it are in clause 10. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1705111cbf64c8793b58aba27105554\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1705111cbf64c8793b58aba27105554\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. See, this is what I find fascinating, because the Minister says, \u201COh, that one little statement\u2014that covers it all.\u201D, but we can have in clause 30 all the reasons why you can\u2019t be on the board: a person who is a member of the monetary policy committee, an employee or a subsidiary of the bank, someone who\u2019s an undischarged bankrupt, someone who is prohibited from being a director or promoter, someone subject to a property order, someone who\u2019s incapacitated, someone who\u2019s involved in a crime of dishonesty, someone who\u2019s been convicted within the past five years. So it just goes on relentlessly on why you can\u2019t. The one thing that\u2019s missing is it should be saying that you can\u2019t be a politician, but that\u2019s not even on it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo that would be the first part, if you wanted to go down to clause 30, Minister. But the view that you might take as the Minister of Finance may be different from the next Minister of Finance, and why not be absolutely explicitly clear about the minimum requirements of what should be the requirements for someone sitting on that board? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EIf the current Minister\u2019s interpretation is one that he wishes to place weight on certain aspects, which may be wider diversity or whatever it may be, as opposed to making sure we\u2019ve got a majority of core skills\u2014because this is now an executive board. This is no longer just a governance board. This is an executive board that has to actually deal with really meaty problems and actually think about and understand macro-prudential policy and monetary policy very well, and all the interlocking things that go\u2014maybe the insurance industry. We haven\u2019t even put that in the list here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EKey parts of the functions\u2014how do we know even the weighting that the Minister might even put on these? All we\u2019ve got is one statement, which says, \u201CThe Minister may only recommend a person who, in the Minister\u2019s opinion,\u201D\u2014gee, depending on who that is\u2014\u201Chas the appropriate knowledge, skills, and experience to assist the Bank to achieve its objectives\u201D. That is such a floater of a statement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EWhat Supplementary Order Paper 47 suggests and what I suggest is that you should at least set a minimum requirement of the expertise and at least some of the skills that you want on that board, because, potentially, if you lost the plot, Minister, we could end up with a range of people on this board\u2014an executive board of the Reserve Bank\u2014that actually may not be appropriate at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022f49e6c23488a45fa916c33140a897f3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f49e6c23488a45fa916c33140a897f3f\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (National):\u003C/span\u003E My colleague\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 47 sets out very specifically the skill sets that, in National\u2019s view, a person appointed to the board of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand should have. I first want to refer to the Minister\u2019s comments earlier in which he said, \u201CNo, no. There\u2019s no need to specify all of that, because what I\u2019ve done in the Act is I\u2019ve simply required that in the Minister\u2019s opinion, the people appointed should have appropriate knowledge, skills, and experience to carry out the functions of the Act.\u201D, and then he\u2019s referred us to clause 10, which sets out the bank\u2019s functions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ENow, this is very important. I want to put this into the Hansard because I want us as a Parliament to be able to refer back to this in future when one day, potentially, a Minister makes an appointment to the board of someone who does not actually, in the view of many, have the appropriate knowledge or skills or experience to exercise the functions of the Reserve Bank, who hasn\u2019t had a career in which they\u2019ve developed a strong understanding of what financial stability is or how to do prudential regulation, who can\u2019t demonstrate experience in macro-prudential policy, or who hasn\u2019t been involved in crisis management and resolution, because if that happens\u2014if it is the view of many that an appointment has been made that doesn\u2019t meet those skills\u2014what the Minister is encouraging us to do is to read into what the Minister is required to do, back into clause 10, the bank\u2019s functions. This could potentially be an issue that the courts would review. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ESo my question for the Minister is: is it his view that the courts, in judging whether the Minister has appropriately exercised his power, should therefore treat clause 10 as a checklist of the skills that an appointee to the board should be able to demonstrate? If that is not the case, then it is very broad as to what the Minister\u2019s opinion may or may not be, so I would ask the Minister to clarify that. I think it\u2019s an important matter of interpretation and it is exactly why we have the committee stage\u2014so that if this were ever to be an issue in the future, learned people of the court and lawyers could refer back to the Hansard and get a very clear sense of what the Minister\u2019s expectation was in the drafting of these words. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EI do want to point out why this is particularly important in the context of this bill, and that is that this bill replaces the single decision-maker, the Governor of the Reserve Bank, with a governance board, an executive board. That is a significant change that this bill makes. It gives that board responsibility for all financial policy decisions of the Reserve Bank. What that, in effect, means is that this board will be expected to have the sorts of judgment, skills, and experience that we have previously had captured in the person of the Governor of the Reserve Bank. So this board is to have significant power and it is our view, on the National side, that it is very important that the people appointed to these roles are appropriately skilled. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThe current criteria for recommendations set out at clause 28, as my learned colleague Andrew Bayly has highlighted, do highlight lots of things that would disqualify someone from the role in huge detail\u2014undischarged bankrupts, dishonesty offences, people who are directors or employees of regulated entities\u2014but are quite vague on what skills they are required to have. It is our view that in exercising the functions of the Reserve Bank, board members will need to have technical competence, not just governance skill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EWe have put forward a SOP which would set that out. I don\u2019t think the Minister has anything to fear from it, but I would, as I said earlier, invite him to comment on how he would expect a Minister\u2014who, of course, could in the future be not this Minister, but a much, much better finance Minister from the National side. That Minister could choose to exercise their opinion, and would he expect them to exercise their opinion as to whether appropriate knowledge and skills were held, by reading into clause 10. If he could set that out for the Hansard, it would be very helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00221890788823e7453d87f3c97ca2b8704b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221890788823e7453d87f3c97ca2b8704b\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY (Chief Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225c80f4b65a2347449d29d18ee16ec33c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 45\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022d9c2e389ba0740eba5e283b5bc575e6d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d9c2e389ba0740eba5e283b5bc575e6d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 2 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 44 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229c4b59913e2b4cc2a6de7017f07f31a9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002239f8695e3ad94b92a00346c477ebecde\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239f8695e3ad94b92a00346c477ebecde\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Andrew Bayly\u2019s amendment to clause 9 set out on Supplement Order Paper 49 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c59382a503de452e9f56136cab160d2f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7c438eadfd04c52bb5a39f176f52363\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7c438eadfd04c52bb5a39f176f52363\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Andrew Bayly\u2019s amendments to Part 2 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 45 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022faea27c25fb746ab9bd26142e6cbd781\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002201b06aebd28943e3b09250f91b23ecc1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201b06aebd28943e3b09250f91b23ecc1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Andrew Bayly\u2019s amendments to Part 2 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 46 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224bfac3db8e43490abaa872416092423b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc4afd502f12412b941787ef06e308a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc4afd502f12412b941787ef06e308a1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Andrew Bayly\u2019s amendment to Part 2, inserting new clause 28(2A), set out on Supplementary Order Paper 47 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222c8d8e73433c48adaafee54ab0b8422d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227be76cd8794e4c4cb06badf28fffe078\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 45\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226ba3662bd2174de287f91dcd3a3415e7\u0022\u003EPart 3  Central bank functions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00225d14786404344a81844a879769677db0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d14786404344a81844a879769677db0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 3. This is the debate on clauses 112 to 167 and Part 1 of Schedule 3, which relate to central bank functions. The question is that Part 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u00229d6d5bb34f0544379e00cbb409f2d83a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d6d5bb34f0544379e00cbb409f2d83a\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Mr Chair, we\u2019re in a bit of position here where the question was put before all the Supplementary Order Papers (SOPs) were discussed and debated. So we have SOP 48 in the name of my colleague Andrew Bayly, which is for Part 2. We\u2019ve now voted on Part 2, and we won\u2019t be able to debate SOP 48. My understanding is that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022541ffb617af6493d88358ba4e96dad60\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022541ffb617af6493d88358ba4e96dad60\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I\u2019m on my feet. OK, I accepted the closure motion based on my watching the entire debate\u2014[Interruption] Excuse me? Have you got something to say?\u2014and as far as I\u2019m concerned, all members of the committee had ample opportunity to debate every single SOP as well the entirety of Part 2. We are now on Part 3. That part is over.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u002208a6b851bffd4a33923e5cbde06628ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208a6b851bffd4a33923e5cbde06628ee\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E Speaking to that point of order, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f0f8b7b0537427dab200fefaee8c2f6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Are you taking a point of order? A new one?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263d798a9fe7747a48f1dd66a7986e2fa\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, just speaking to that point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c6b0edbe52c462aa8a9e83e0ff3212e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. I made a ruling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce70008ad9664641bd9500f18455c254\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY\u003C/span\u003E: Is the ruling now that we won\u2019t speak to SOPs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf5178cd8e8d4113848048fe2ff8bbd4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Are you taking a new point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262a263b7db0142f1b7602461bfd0265c\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I was speaking to that point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231bebcdd836a48da941f9c23af69c285\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)348CHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: No, you made a point of order, I have made a ruling, that\u2019s the end of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022401f28e0b7d84c6b98148cad834dba37\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, Part 3 of the bill takes us to the core functions of the Reserve Bank\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebce963c999e4cec9bfea7780518459f\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Mr Chair, what does your most recent ruling mean?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5a917591632425a926c44d38c341394\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member\u2019s been here long enough that questioning\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b73ae2b82644c7380b18895e08db27f\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not questioning it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed89bd0369f541978a8616581af7d4f4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Can you let me actually make a ruling? You know the rules. I have made a ruling. By rights, you know, a member who is as experienced as yourself who then comments on that ruling is, he knows, out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee14\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7f02ad965a24d16b1d44887256350a5\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Chair. As you know, rulings like that become part of the Standing Orders of the House, so far as order is maintained and a debate is participated in by the members. Now, in most cases, we can go to Speakers\u2019 Rulings or to the Standing Orders and we have, in those, adequate opportunity to consider exactly what those printed and published orders and rulings mean. This will be a ruling that now features in the Speakers\u2019 Rulings 2021, but we don\u2019t get that until the beginning of 2022. It\u2019s not unreasonable for a member to stand up and say, \u201CI accept that you have made a ruling. What does it mean?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222dc3386c360d4bb998e9f826d7f3549c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: I disagree with the member\u2019s characterisation of what\u2019s just happened. This is not a new situation. I have accepted the closure motion, the vote has been put, that\u2019s the end of the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cfe1c2530dc4cf0afe3d4725244411d\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Part 3 of the bill today takes us to the core central bank functions of the Reserve Bank and outlines those in a way that is largely familiar to the legislation as it currently exists. It runs through the obligations of the Reserve Bank to formulate monetary policy. Obviously, it now does that through the monetary policy committee. That was a change made in the first of the three pieces of legislation that make up the reforms of the Reserve Bank that the Government has been working through this term and last term. It covers off the remit for monetary policy. This was the process that, in the last piece of legislation, replaced the policy targets agreement, which was formerly the way in which the arrangements between the Government and the Reserve Bank on monetary policy were set out. We now have a monetary policy remit for that purpose, and clauses 118 through 120 go through the content of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThere was some debate on the question around whether or not a monetary policy remit, or amending it, requires an Order in Council. The advice, and the advice that I accepted and that the Government accepted, was that at the moment we have to have advice on the remit every five years, regardless of whether it\u2019s been amended, and, essentially, that the Order in Council process was disproportionate to the substance of the remit, which doesn\u2019t change statutory economic objectives. It also would mean that the remit had a different legal form depending on whether it had been issued by the Governor-General before the previous agreement expired or by the Minister of Finance afterwards. So rather than create a situation where there were two different ways in which a remit could be created, we\u2019ve landed on the side of saying that the Order in Council process is not the best way to do that. There is a number of safeguards already built into the system, such as the requirement for the Minister to consult with the bank before amending a monetary policy remit, and, obviously, regular opportunities for Parliament and the Finance and Expenditure Committee in particular to review the processes of monetary policy. So our view is that that particular set of clauses, 121 through 125, are appropriate there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe Act, as it has always done, obliges the bank to create a variety of reports on monetary policy. Then, Subparts 3 and 4 and 5 are all the bread and butter, day-to-day work of the bank as the controller of money in our system, and so that covers foreign exchange, currency, and banknote handling machines. And then, finally, Subpart 6 of Part 3 is the obligation that the bank has to produce financial stability reports\u2014that it has always had.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis is a fairly functional part of the Act, one that covers off what I think most people would think of when they think of what the bank does. One or two amendments have been made to it, but, by and large, it covers off the material that we would expect to see in a Reserve Bank Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022acecb4083f7e484bb5e5cef06c7a7929\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022acecb4083f7e484bb5e5cef06c7a7929\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E In the context of monetary policy, I think it\u2019s very important we talk about the issue of the inclusion or deletion of the word \u201Cefficiency\u201D in the remit. I think it\u2019s very important, Minister Robertson, that we recognise that there is a role that was previously set out in the Act that, in promoting the stability of New Zealand\u2019s financial system, it should also promote efficiency in it. That was part of the original remit. Under this new arrangement, \u201Cefficiency\u201D is going to be deleted, and as the Minister very clearly knows, this was not widely supported and was certainly opposed by the banking sector, because by removing the word \u201Cefficiency\u201D from the monetary policy intent, what that means is that there is no counterbalance towards just making sure that not only do we have a financial system that is stable but we also have no requirement to make sure that it operates efficiently. That\u2019s why the banks in particular were very much opposed to this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThere are real trade-offs in terms\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c631e8605e34f499825aef22dd91665\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Chair. The matter of the question of the inclusion or not of \u201Cefficiency\u201D was in Part 2 of the bill. Part 3 simply sets the process around the remit. So we\u2019ve actually already dealt with the matter that the member is raising.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf0bdb349c0a4a0a833f8a34801f29cf\u0022\u003EMatt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, that\u2019s exactly the point I was trying to raise earlier when we had Supplementary Order Papers that hadn\u2019t been debated in the House\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224901f33b6a32499093ab5c5142aeafc1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve ruled on it. I have ruled on that matter, as the member well knows. You should sit down. The member needs to link what he has said about Part 2. I\u2019m not going to rule it out, but he should make it relevant to Part 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207ef362153514a84a65f535914484c57\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Well, I think the issue of efficiency is paramount, because we are talking about monetary policy statement here and the operation of it, and part of that operation and how it\u2019s applied is at the crux of this issue. Removing the requirement of efficiency from that is actually quite a significant issue, particularly when it wasn\u2019t supported widely by industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI think the big differentiation is when you think about the deposit takers bill. What\u2019s going to happen is, by all accounts, this is going to be taken into account in that bill, which we haven\u2019t yet seen, this issue of efficiency, and that is the problem. Because in terms of the efficient operation of the Reserve Bank, we need a bank, in pursuing its objectives, to have regard for both maintaining financial stability and also financial system efficiency, and those, as I was saying before, are real trade-offs. There is no hook now on the Reserve Bank to have regard for, to take into account, how they manage that trade-off, because the bank will simply be no longer required to have regard for efficiency when it comes to implementing these issues that the Minister\u2019s referred to. I think it\u2019s a fundamental issue that should have been debated and needs to be debated as to why or not efficiency is no longer in there. What certainty can the Minister give us that in this subsequent bill, that no one has seen, we\u2019re going to see adequate representation or consideration of that in the bill that\u2019s to come forward into the House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022f284895db328422aa8f9bb8828a21f55\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f284895db328422aa8f9bb8828a21f55\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Part 3 is very important. In fact, Part 2 was important as well, and the fact that we seem to gloss over a number of parts in less than an hour for a reformation bill that is 30 years in the making, I think is an interesting approach\u2014[Acting Minister for Emergency Management\u2019s phone beeps] Is that something we need to be aware of? Do we need to evacuate the building? Is that a civil defence notification from the Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255d0088fbd964e00b186e9b8343bbda9\u0022\u003EHon Kris Faafoi\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff2fc1d6be524202affc54d50ec6d128\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m glad to hear that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI\u2019m not sure I heard the Minister correctly, but it seemed to me, in his introductory comments, that he was sort of downplaying the significance or importance of the monetary policy remit. One of the concerns I have had with the framework of this bill and the degree to which we are moving away from the principles of statutory independence of the Reserve Bank from the Minister is that we seem to be going in two directions that are both sort of counter to that. One is the Minister is having a quiet, step-by-step level of influence over the Reserve Bank that I and my party are uncomfortable with, and yet a distancing of this House from that scrutiny as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ESo my first question, as we discuss the process of the monetary policy remit, and why he doesn\u2019t feel that this place has any role to play\u2014I think Mr Bayly\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper requires it to be a confirmable instrument, which I think is an underused form of scrutiny in our democracy. Does the Minister agree that a monetary policy remit is a significant instrument and does have, potentially, quite far-reaching implications for the bank and for the way our economy runs? And, if so, is it not appropriate for this place to have some oversight, and potentially confirm it in the public interest?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00228e37fe3516e94921aba46bf868eaafaa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e37fe3516e94921aba46bf868eaafaa\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E To repeat some of the comments I made in my introductory remarks, the issue we\u2019ve got here is the initial and most regular way in which a monetary policy remit will be created\u2014it will be created by the Minister signing that, issuing that, negotiating and discussing it, obviously, with the Reserve Bank at the same time. The issue is that when the monetary policy remit was first created, the issue of how to update it, the decision was made that well, perhaps an Order in Council could be used for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAs I said in my earlier remarks, you then create two ways in which a monetary policy remit is created. It\u2019s not a question of the oversight of the House per se, because, in fact, in the normal course of events, the way in which a monetary policy remit is created does not have that. It has to be aligned with the rules on how to create and what it contains, but in terms of the oversight of the House per se, it was in fact an anomaly to have the Order in Council process for when, you know, there needed to be an amendment to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThere is plenty of opportunity for oversight, and the member, both as a Minister but also as a member of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, is well aware of the many opportunities that members have to ask questions about monetary policy. But the truth of the matter is that the monetary policy remit is an agreement between the Government of the day and the Reserve Bank on the way in which the Reserve Bank does its job in terms of monetary policy as outlined in this bill. So I think there\u2019s a confusion about what the concern is here. If the concern here is around the way in which remits are created, actually, the normal course of events is not for the House to be involved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u00227786330532c24c3baa52a224f7f9fe73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227786330532c24c3baa52a224f7f9fe73\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I thank the Minister for that response. I should make it very clear: my concern is not that this House has oversight over the Reserve Bank, my concern is that this House has oversight of the executive and the Minister of Finance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThat creeping influence that we are seeing by some of the changes in this bill does give me cause for concern. Not of the individual who holds that warrant right now\u2014mostly, at the moment\u2014but of future Labour Ministers of Finance who may not act in a way that\u2019s consistent with the arm\u2019s length. I want to know, actually, what changed between this bill being introduced\u2014and, actually, I don\u2019t think the recommended changes\u2014if memory serves me, we weren\u2019t able to have submissions on this point because the amendment that we are talking about only came through officials to the committee after the select committee submissions process had been concluded. So my question is: what changed? What was the problem the executive is trying to solve with the amendments that were confirmed in the second reading, but through which we seek to improve through Mr Bayly\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper? Because it\u2019s still not clear to me what problem we are trying to solve and why we are so concerned at the degree of oversight of the executive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022c665af5618644d82aa6914b2a2603a2f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c665af5618644d82aa6914b2a2603a2f\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, I was waiting for the Minister to stand up and answer that question, but\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f873103f788d495cb764dc8718cc4d42\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve already answered it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284f873c7e95a40698894852797d46acc\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Hmm. Well, interesting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo I think my colleague just made a very good point\u2014this was a late addition by the officials to grant the Minister the power to issue a remit without benefit of a consultation process. So therefore, we don\u2019t really know how people in the banking sector, particularly, view this\u2014other than what we\u2019ve heard subsequently, and in an anecdotal sense. But I think the Minister\u2019s response before is conflating two things: one is there is a normal remit process driven by the Reserve Bank to change, if they so wish, on a five-yearly basis. If it wants to change a remit it goes through a proper process that involves extensive consultation before it comes to the Minister. Now, that is set down, laid out, understood, and subject to wide consultation. The process for that is fine and we do not have an issue with that process because it is one that follows a prescribed arrangement or framework.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThis Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 48 in my name is dealing with the occasional use\u2014and the Minister\u2019s used it once, equivalently, under section 68B where the Minister chooses to make a change to the policy remit of the Reserve Bank. It is not subject to any outside consultation. It may be negotiated between the Reserve Bank and the Minister, but it\u2019s not subject to any other outside consultation, and I\u2019m not sure that it actually be subject to any select committee processes either. So what this SOP is saying is if that is the situation\u2014and hopefully it\u2019s used very sparingly\u2014the Minister should still be entitled and able to do that if he or she so wishes. But if they use it in that extreme circumstance, then that change should be debated on the floor of this House. Because it\u2019s extraordinary, it\u2019s unused, and it\u2019s not subject to any other oversight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ENow, the Minister says it will be subject to discussion with the next select committee. It may be, but as the Minister well knows, the select committees are controlled by the party in power and the opportunity to debate this may be actually quite limited. So what this bill has been very clear about is: if you want to do it, that\u2019s fine\u2014as the Minister, that\u2019s fine. But make sure it goes through a parliamentary process. And what we are talking about is confirmable secondary legislation, which means it can be implemented quickly, but it just must be subject to debate on the floor of the House so it\u2019s very transparent and everyone can see that the Minister made the change\u2014because not everyone follows regulations and all that sort of stuff and knows exactly what goes on in Government. It\u2019s explicit. It\u2019s debated here. It\u2019s confirmed and, obviously, the Minister from the party that controls Parliament and it will be passed. But at least people have the opportunity to debate it publicly on the floor of Parliament, which I think is the proper way to do this type of change to our most esteemed and significant financial institution in this land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u00221388633b13ba47b9b1ef7a82718a0f46\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221388633b13ba47b9b1ef7a82718a0f46\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (National):\u003C/span\u003E I want to draw the committee\u2019s attention to clause 118 of Part 3, the remit for the monetary policy committee, because it\u2019s important, I think, that the committee understands that this part of the bill changed during the select committee process. As introduced to the House by the Minister, the bill required the Reserve Bank to provide advice to the Minister of Finance before the Minister could issue a remit to the monetary policy committee. As originally presented to the House, the bill required that we deduce\u2014because it was believed that that would allow for a comprehensive consultation process that would ensure a well-informed monetary policy remit. The bill now, as the committee examines it, as reported back by the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2014on which, of course, there are a majority of Government members\u2014provides for the Minister to issue a remit without first receiving that advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ESo this is a significant change. My colleagues have referred to the implications of this, have constructively provided an alternative mechanism which could be used to fill the gap. But my question for the Minister is: what is the reason for the change from the way he introduced the bill to the way it is now? Why did he see fit to remove that consultation requirement? If he could elucidate on that reasoning I think it would be very helpful, because this is a significant matter. The monetary policy remit, in many ways, is at the heart of what the Reserve Bank does. It has incredibly far reaching implications for the economy; for example, as amended by that Minister, it currently requires the support of the maximum sustainable employment level. There has been much debate about what that means and whether that has encouraged a more expansionary policy from the Reserve Bank, whether it has potentially allowed it to have lower interest rates for longer, and the ramifications of that. So it is a very significant remit. It has significant implications in terms of price stability and inflation levels. The change from requiring consultation to not requiring consultation is significant in that broader context.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EI also want to highlight an apparent contradiction, I think, which is that clause 121 of Part 3 is quite specific in that it allows the Governor-General, on advice of the Minister, to direct the monetary policy committee to formulate monetary policy for one or more economic objectives for a particular period of time. So for 12 months, to say \u201CWell here\u2019s a particular thing you\u2019re required to achieve over the next 12 months.\u201D, and it gives the Minister that power. But tellingly in subclause (4), when the Minister exercises that power, he is required to make an Order in Council\u2014the Order in Council is viewed as secondary legislation that is set out explicitly. I think it\u2019s interesting that the Minister thinks that constraint is appropriate for that section, for clause 121, where he\u2019s setting out a short term objective, but is not necessary for clause 118, in departure from how this bill was originally drafted, and I would invite his comments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002253c80baef2264e7086f92d9f91cf75ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253c80baef2264e7086f92d9f91cf75ca\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E The member has hit on the very point that I made in my first intervention here, and we discussed this with Mr Brownlee earlier on for the reason why clause 121 is how it is. And, as I said to Mr Brownlee earlier, in one form or another, clause 121 has existed in the Reserve Bank Act since it began, although not utilised. The point being that the appropriateness of the Order in Council process for this is because that is about the amendment of the objectives of the Act. So for a period of time not exceeding 12 months, you can actually, and have always been able to, amend the objectives of the Act. The difference for clause 118 is that is about the remit, which is the operationalisation of the way in which the Government of the day and the Reserve Bank give effect to the monetary policy aspects of the bank\u2019s work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAs I said in one of my earlier interventions, a way of helping explain to members of the committee is that the monetary policy remit is effectively the new generation of the policy targets agreement. Bill English or Michael Cullen or Ministers before then all went about their business of negotiating a policy targets agreement with the bank and publishing it\u2014that\u2019s what they did. That is essentially the same process that happens with the remit. As I have already said in my earlier calls, what you end up then, with having the Order in Council process in addition to the normal remit process, is effectively two remits issued by two different people: the Governor-General or the Minister of Finance. Actually, the best place for the Order in Council process, as is appropriate, is at the objectives level of legislation, not at the monetary policy remit, which is the operationalisation element of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn terms of the other interventions that have been made, I\u2019ll simply be repeating myself that there is ample opportunity for oversight of the work of the monetary policy committee through the Finance and Expenditure Committee, who do it every single time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225cbe8faa1c684ef3a96f800adf52cff3\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c20b0d30020142bcb30dabe3bd3f7fd1\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: And, Mr Bayly, I again take you back to the fact that this is not what Bill English did with the policy targets agreement; there wasn\u2019t a parliamentary moment for that. This is an arrangement between the Government of the day and the Reserve Bank Governor for how they are going to express the ability for the bank to go about its monetary policy work. That is how it has been; that is how it now is. There is opportunity for oversight. There is also the advice that the bank must provide on a five-yearly basis, and if the Minister is going to alter the remit, they have to consult with the monetary policy committee before doing so. This is the similar process we\u2019ve had for a very long time. The anomaly was the introduction of the Order in Council process, which we now don\u2019t deem to be necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022 data-id=\u00227e27b0bf6f404a87a36d6fac3a5d840c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e27b0bf6f404a87a36d6fac3a5d840c\u0022\u003EDAMIEN SMITH (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E With regards to efficiency, ACT believes we should be reinserting this concept. Fundamentally, it was based on making the Reserve Bank better. It would be a measure of how well the financial system performs its functions, thereby contributing to what we hope is a sustainable and productive economy. So it doesn\u2019t make sense to me that there isn\u2019t some sort of formulation reflecting efficiency in that sense. ACT believes that it should be an objective in itself, not merely an analytical consideration, and we\u2019d just like to get your thoughts on that, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00220f45d820c4ba48ab9addefa366689b5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f45d820c4ba48ab9addefa366689b5c\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E This is in Part 2 of the bill. The objectives were covered in clause 9. Part 3 of the bill does not cover those matters. I\u2019ve also explained that to the member in the debate we had not today but the previous time we were debating Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00222345e2e2e2a349718d577d90fb382f92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222345e2e2e2a349718d577d90fb382f92\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY (Chief Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022e79cd350de424587ad7e36d1dce7e424\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e79cd350de424587ad7e36d1dce7e424\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E The last explanation from the Minister was good and what we would expect but not necessarily agree with entirely. But I just want to speak to clause 117 and the clause 117A. It talks about the bank\u2019s functions \u201Cof implementing, in accordance with the Act, the monetary policy formulated by the [monetary policy committee].\u201D It goes on to then, in 117A, talk about the bank is not required to implement monetary policy that is inconsistent with the financial responsibility duties. The question I\u2019m leading to is: at what point does the Minister consider there might be the use of these almost contradictory arrangements inside the bill? Clearly, it\u2019s a belts and braces - type arrangement. I think it would be good to get some explanation of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EIn clause 118, it says that the\u2014well, firstly, 117A refers to the duty of the bank under clause 45, which, of course, we have debated, but to clarify for people: \u201CThe board must ensure that the Bank operates in a financially responsible manner and, for this purpose, that it [prudentially] manages its assets and liabilities.\u201D It goes on with some other requirements that they must do. I\u2019m just a little concerned about what would trigger a circumstance where it was considered that the work of the monetary policy committee was set aside because of some other circumstance that occurred within the bank.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EIt goes on to talk about clause 205A, which is, you know, one of the problems we have: that in order to understand 117A, we have to go through to 205A, which is a new clause, and it talks about the power of the Minister to direct the bank relating to minimum levels of capital and financial risk management. There are a number of other provisions in here that add to that, and in that direction, the Minister could set out expectations as to the bank\u2019s financial risk management. What would have gone wrong in the system to get to this position? Why is it necessary to have it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EIf you think about the way this is being structured, we\u2019re going from a governor who has been pretty much all powerful\u2014notwithstanding the points made by the Minister that there have been various provisions in the law for a long time that would allow some ministerial direction\u2014to a point where we have the exclusive powers of the Reserve Bank Governor being shared, at least shared, by a board of people, and we\u2019ve said who those people can\u2019t be but not who those people can be, and then, of course, separate to that, the monetary policy committee, who are setting out that aspect of the bank\u2019s work. So inside this much broader consideration that this Act is going to allow, what is it that the Minister can see might go wrong that would lead to a setting aside of the functions of 117 in accordance with the newly inserted piece of law or statute\u2014not quite yet, but in the bill, the new proposal in 117A?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022efad4cf852714e2ea318f9da559cc56c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022efad4cf852714e2ea318f9da559cc56c\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for his question. So this is essentially a clause in the bill that puts in place the operational requirements of having a board, and, obviously, understanding that there were concerns raised by members of the Opposition during the first part of the debate around the question of the role of the board and is it appropriate. But the board now has a series of responsibilities, and this is, I would say at the outset, a highly unlikely set of circumstances, but the advice that we were given was that it was important in order for the board to be confident about the hierarchy of their duties, essentially, that were the monetary policy committee to\u2014and I repeat again. In the highly unlikely event they were to take a decision that would compromise the overall financial responsibilities of the board to run the bank\u2014for instance, a balance sheet - related issue that would make it impossible for the bank to do its job\u2014then this clause 117A then gives them the ability not to implement that decision if that were true. It is, and I want to stress, as the member himself has actually indicated, highly unlikely. It is the belts and braces that he mentioned before. But when one is establishing a board to have the oversight of the operations of the bank, this is a necessary measure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0579daffa0d4fc9b1dabf3166f9cf11\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0579daffa0d4fc9b1dabf3166f9cf11\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Simple question that arises out of that explanation is: why is it, then, that clause 205A empowers the Minister to do that and not the board itself?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022084cf482869943f491884b19f79966ba\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: What clause, sorry, Mr Brownlee?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229274712378e048748c0e3eb8715bdfee\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, here\u2019s our problem, you see. We\u2019re debating Part 2\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be4e39799d3f43f08b03c819a5ccce25\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: No, we\u2019re not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce23b4eede6b4fd28d5991e54f29f5fa\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Part 3. We have a very important clause, that I can see. And it might be technical, it might be belts and braces, but none the less it\u2019s there and it should be considered. But the effect of the bank\u2019s duty to comply with a direction given under 205A\u2014so what the Minister has just outlined is that the board of the bank might determine that the monetary policy committee\u2019s approach to things is not 100 percent, and therefore there needs to be a turning away from that. But the turning away from it is power of the Minister to direct the bank.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220dfca77aba954353aa5d74fd1c491509\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022708501613b574f4eabec91b1f122d094\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, how\u2019s that work? Why is it saying then that the direction is given under 205A if the board is unable, under clause 45, to exercise its duties?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee7c9e9a2c914670af5da1c858da26c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee7c9e9a2c914670af5da1c858da26c2\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E No, so\u2014thank you. So I simply didn\u2019t hear the number of the clause; that was the reason I asked the member for clarification. So again, what clause 205A does is allow the Minister power to direct the bank relating to the minimum level of capital and financial risk management. The matter we were debating earlier on with Mr Bayly, that would be a material matter in terms of whether or not the bank was able to meet all of its duties, and it would be theoretically possible that the monetary policy committee could take a decision that would impact upon an already agreed minimum level of capital, for example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00224d64b7c1fe7e4cc4ba435a2a385ef0cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d64b7c1fe7e4cc4ba435a2a385ef0cd\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah, I want to return to my Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 48. I just wanted to say that not one member from the Government side has actually stood up and addressed or debated any of the issues of the five SOPs that have been put up. I make that point quite deliberately because in returning to this SOP, which would require the Minister, if he or she put in place a new remit, and it is at their discretion whether they did so, they would be empowered to do so, but it would only be subject to confirmable secondary legislation, which, effectively, means it would have to be debated on the floor of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe Minister made the assertion before\u2014look, in his case he would negotiate with the Reserve Bank board, because it is no longer, probably, with the Government there, it\u2019s probably the board, and then make a determination without any outside consultation. That goes through the House, and, if I understand what he was saying before, that would then have the opportunity to be debated at the Finance and Expenditure Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EWhat assurance can he give\u2014because I\u2019m not sure he can, because there is nothing specified in the legislation or the proposed bill\u2014that actually this would be properly debated, first of all, in the Finance and Expenditure Committee, whether that involved any third parties, particularly if the remit change affected a number of the banking sector, as an example, or perhaps some other organisations? And what is the opportunity in this House other than to ask questions of the Minister? Because, otherwise, we have a substantial change to the direction of the Reserve Bank, premier financial institution, and, basically, under this current arrangement, it all happens and gets done and dusted without any form of debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6b48922656d437bab397d60517b1e82\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6b48922656d437bab397d60517b1e82\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I am literally repeating myself, but the monetary policy remit is akin to the policy targets agreement that has been and was in operation in the earlier life of this piece of legislation. That is an agreement between the Government of the day and the Reserve Bank Governor. The opportunity for scrutiny does come through the parliamentary process. The Reserve Bank Governor and the monetary policy committee\u2019s decisions are debated at each and every term by the Finance and Expenditure Committee. The process of putting a remit together is clarified in this legislation. And this is, I think, the third or fourth time I\u2019ve explained that to Mr Bayly that I don\u2019t believe the Order in Council process is commensurate and appropriate with the remit; it is commensurate and appropriate with the objectives, therefore that is why that process is in there, but is not when it comes to the remit. I don\u2019t think the change here is the characterisation that Mr Bayly has given it\u2014it is simply just not correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba759780907a4c4cb4d64617d314a770\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba759780907a4c4cb4d64617d314a770\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (National):\u003C/span\u003E I want to change tack a little and talk about clause 151, which is about defacing bank notes. This is an interesting part of the Act, which the Minister has chosen not to change in this modernisation. I just want to ask him a little more about that, because I do remember being informed as a young person that it was, in fact, an offence for me to intentionally deface a bank note: to write on it, to rip it, any of that sort of thing. That is, in fact, the case in the bill we are debating here. I note\u2014and for the purposes of all those who may be concerned that they have, in the past, written on a bank note and may now have broken the law and not been aware of that\u2014that that offence does not apply if you have first sought permission from the Reserve Bank. But if you have committed the offence of defacing a bank note, you are liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding $2,000. So you could be fined for drawing on a bank note.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ENow, the interesting case in which this could occur, of course, is the artist, who uses the $5 note in all its glory to create a mural or to do some such. The charity auction where someone signs a bank note and uses it for it. The interesting question I have for the Minister is why he thinks that should remain an offence. Because I think we can all understand that offence in the context of subclause (3), which says that if you are defacing or disfiguring the bank note and then intentionally using it to put in circulation or using it to demand payment or using it as a deposit, then that\u2019s not quite right, and I think that\u2019s fine. But did the Minister give any thought to the idea that defacing a bank note\u2014if actually it\u2019s only for your own personal use or it\u2019s actually just for the purposes of raising money for a charity\u2014and not intending for the bank note to be used legal tender in future should continue to be the case\u2014should New Zealanders be very aware that if they write on a bank note tomorrow they are liable to a fine of $2,000?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00225c35d78c037145b684eea504bd79e0b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c35d78c037145b684eea504bd79e0b6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Does someone want a call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022 data-id=\u00224f205369070e4d58a5d8dddd29c52817\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f205369070e4d58a5d8dddd29c52817\u0022\u003EDr EMILY HENDERSON (Labour\u2014Whang\u0101rei):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00220301cc2edb0445cd9b82dd9c716bf0a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220301cc2edb0445cd9b82dd9c716bf0a3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: If no one wants a call, I\u2019m going to put the question. The question is that Andrew Bayly\u2019s amendment to Part 3, inserting new clause 118(4) set out on Supplementary Order Paper 48 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c679174de895411d9623a342ad91e3eb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 45\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000655\u0022\u003EThe result corrected after originally being announced as Ayes 77, Noes 43 to correct Te Paati M\u0101ori\u2019s votes that were originally cast in favour.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fba29a3dd36e4d7182f9f247920a7a80\u0022\u003EPart 4  Operation of Reserve Bank\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022a827fcd2dfa04faaa352a7336bc60741\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a827fcd2dfa04faaa352a7336bc60741\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022147f5e35d215476bb36d2cdf410b3551\u0022\u003EHon Eugenie Sage\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chair. I seek\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252b3fa6688cc4b8cb79cd448a240f130\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014taihoa\u2014the debate on Part 4. This debate is on clauses 168 to 199, which relate to the operation of the Reserve Bank. The question is that Part 4 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u0022f842757d7fe64c7d82579403a2f5e0c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f842757d7fe64c7d82579403a2f5e0c4\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Chair. I seek your leave to correct the vote. It should be two votes against from the M\u0101ori Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022e50cba8e22884722a5fff5a1fceb839e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e50cba8e22884722a5fff5a1fceb839e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is none. The record will be adjusted. So the Ayes are 75, the Noes are 45, and Part 3 still stands part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00221cbc580150dc44fe8e5972f0a82f4624\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221cbc580150dc44fe8e5972f0a82f4624\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. So Part 4 of the bill is around the operations of the bank. Again, much of this is carried over from previous incarnations of the Reserve Bank Act. A very important clause for me is clause 168\u2014the safeguarding of the independence of the bank\u2014that has been consistent throughout the operation of the bank. And I do, on a serious note, want to underscore the fact that I do believe it is a genuinely held view of all members of this House that we do need to protect the independence of the bank. And to take up the offer made to me earlier on by Nicola Willis in terms of the Hansard, that is an important thing for us to reiterate at this time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EOver the years of the bank\u2019s operation, it has evolved. Monetary policy has evolved. The responsibilities of the bank have evolved and increased. But that question of independence is important. The creation of the Reserve Bank Act in 1989 came from things that occurred in New Zealand in the first part of that decade. I think it is important for all members of the committee\u2014and I\u2019m not making a political point there, I\u2019m making an overall point that actually it is important for the committee to reiterate the importance of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EOtherwise, the part looks at the role of the bank as an employer and indeed being a good employer. Questions around liability, liability for the bank itself, for those within the bank\u2019s operating models\u2014so members of the board, the monetary policy committee, the governor and so on\u2014how that liability is exercised, how the bank deals with third parties in terms of its contracting process. We then have the process for the review of the bank and its operations and reasons why it can release information, and then a set of miscellaneous conditions to allow the board, the governor and other office holders to go about their work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0d09b485a71415ca1dd6863245680f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0d09b485a71415ca1dd6863245680f2\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I couldn\u2019t resist a chuckle when the Minister Grant Robertson was describing what Part 4 did in the context of clause 168, where he quoted the section safeguarding the independence of the bank. Because, actually, subclause 168(1) refers to the operational independence as it relates to a particular person or persons\u2014that is, the Minister can\u2019t direct the bank to go after individuals or groups of individuals, which is absolutely right; that\u2019s not the Minister\u2019s role. But it is ironic in the extreme that he tends to reinforce the operational independence of the bank, when the bill as a whole actually undermines that in my view. The simple question that National members have asked themselves in their consideration of their support for this bill was this: does the bill make stronger or weaker the operational independence of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand? And the answer is inevitably \u201Cweaker\u201D. In fact, Part 4 then goes on to list a number of ways in which the Minister of State Services and the Minister of Finance may give plenty of directions, instructions, remits, and so on\u2014that is a greater power than in the 1989 Act. So I point that out at Part 4, my mirth at the irony of the introductory remarks the Minister made, which were in fact directed at protecting individuals and groups, not his overall influence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022b33d2e10580e4fd89ad0d5545ec3e827\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b33d2e10580e4fd89ad0d5545ec3e827\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E I want to continue that vein of thoughts from the Hon Michael Woodhouse, because we\u2019ve been talking tonight, and the first thing we do agree on is the independence and the importance of the independence of the Reserve Bank. I think there\u2019s a difference around making sure we\u2019ve got the right framework for that and then differentiating that in terms of the independence of the bank to perform its functions. I think it\u2019s that crucial part of independence that it should be free to go out and execute and perform the functions that are set out clearly under the various remits that are provided, and we\u2019ve just been talking about how the Minister can change that quite easily without much transparency or oversight by Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBut with regard to the much wider issue of independence, there are some fundamental changes to this bill that give us a great deal of discomfort, and one is around the appointment process. So, essentially, what we\u2019ve ended up with is moving from a single governor with wide-ranging powers to one where we\u2019ve now got a board that is essentially appointed by the Minister of Finance without any real criteria as to how those people should be appointed and what skill sets. All we know is what they shouldn\u2019t be able to do, like be an undischarged bankrupt. But that\u2019s one level of oversight now by the Minister, and, of course, the board that is appointed by the Minister now has the role of making a recommendation around the governor, which, of course, is subject to oversight by the Minister, and, of course, we\u2019ve got the all-important monetary policy committee, again, with ministerial oversight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo this whole issue of independence has been cut through and degraded because now there\u2019s a significant amount of oversight with the Reserve Bank, particularly where appointees to the bank board could now be very much ex-politicians and all those unfavourable things that we wouldn\u2019t want to see creeping into the appointment process around the board. So that\u2019s one issue around the lack of independence. If we\u2019re talking about trying to achieve clause 168, I think that\u2019s the first strike of a bow that says that, well, actually, this piece of legislation doesn\u2019t help that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve talked about the remit process, and I think that is a very significant thing in terms of the way the Minister has oversight in terms of the remit. In the context of the Minister\u2019s opening statement about protecting independence, we agree with that, but I\u2019m not sure that we agree with the approach of it, and that\u2019s why most of the five Supplementary Order Papers that have been put up are dealing with the issue of independence and making sure we are protecting it. What we\u2019re seeing with this second of three\u2014we haven\u2019t yet seen the third piece of legislation coming through\u2014is what other changes will be made that will undermine the independence of the Reserve Bank. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002224a39b1c58d24380b8ff0b2f2d4c53a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224a39b1c58d24380b8ff0b2f2d4c53a7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment to Part 4 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 44 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228096310c460d4eefb81de81709cb79f2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 45\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229218a3ebfdc4407395accf05622fc0f4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 4 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 45\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 4 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022656731dde6534b5c95dcf19a6a1b78d0\u0022\u003EPart 5  Financial and accountability matters\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022d0d6add83e424ae89a465a34a5c8746f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d0d6add83e424ae89a465a34a5c8746f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 5. This is the debate on clauses 200 to 257, financial and accountability matters. The question is that Part 5 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002232fa2fb65185412b8aa3e3457b009738\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002232fa2fb65185412b8aa3e3457b009738\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, thank you very much. So, as you\u2019ve indicated, this is the part that deals with financial and accountability measures. The first part of it is the requirement upon the Minister of Finance to issue a financial policy remit. This is an important part of the bill in terms of matching the monetary policy remit process with the financial policy remit. This is about making sure that there is a remit containing matters that the Minister considers desirable for the bank to have regard to in relation to achieving the financial stability objectives; essentially, looking in particular at the way it furthers the purposes of the prudential legislation and the bank\u2019s prudential functions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt is important to note that the earlier reference that was made in the debate\u2014and I can refer back to Part 4, just briefly\u2014to the independence clause, Mr Woodhouse\u2019s view that we were talking about a particular person or a particular Act is quite relevant in the case of this financial policy remit, because part of that would be preventing, for example, a Minister of the day wanting to target a particular bank for the way in which they were doing their work. That would not be possible via the financial policy remit, but rather that it would be around how to achieve the financial stability objectives that are contained\u2014and the prudential functions of the bank. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI regard this as a very important step forward in the way this legislation works. We need to mirror the monetary policy remit with a financial policy remit. That\u2019s the evolution of the Reserve Bank Act. Since 1989, more functions have been taken on by the Reserve Bank within the financial stability space, within the prudential supervision and standards space, and it is appropriate to have an agreement between the Minister and the bank around the way in which they go about that work, and the bill provides the process for the contents of the process for its creation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWe also cover under this part of the bill the funding agreement issue, and I know that members have had some discussion about this and the way in which a funding agreement works. The bill provides that process for finalising that agreement, giving the bank a long period in which it has certainty of its funding\u2014five consecutive years, as it\u2019s laid out in clause 206(2) is important. The bank can get on with its job of doing what it should do, without having to unnecessarily move through the process of a funding agreement. But there is, obviously, the ability for that to be understood and reviewed, and those agreements have to be published and presented to this House under clause 208 of the bill. I don\u2019t believe there\u2019s been any change there in terms of the determination of an annual dividend from the bank, which is, again, the Minister determining that on the basis of discussions with the bank. That continues as we are now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThen there are the various accountability documents that are covered through this part: the statement of intent, in particular, which is familiar to those who\u2019ve been Ministers or who are Ministers now, and that process is laid out somewhat exhaustively through the bill; the statement of performance expectations\u2014again, familiar to all those who deal with Government agencies and Crown entities; an annual report and the provision of that annual report and its provision through to, indeed, this House. I should also mention subpart 4, which was the question around financial risk management and the importance of a statement of that; a statement of prudential policy, which is also provided here as well. So these are all important accountability measures that the bank has always had. They are tweaked and enhanced in this part, as well as the role around financial policy and the accountability for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022 data-id=\u00225635bcbca0d44eee92c312b2150a5fc3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225635bcbca0d44eee92c312b2150a5fc3\u0022\u003EDAMIEN SMITH (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I think it is time, from the ACT Party\u2019s point of view, that we should also be looking at the disadvantaged members of society, the Pasifika community, the M\u0101ori community, and actually include, now, in the framework, the Reserve Bank, the credit unions and building societies mutual model. We should give them the same liquidity buffers that the rest of the banks get, because there is a wellbeing issue there and, sort of, they are discriminated against in terms of an equal playing field. So I\u2019d like the Minister\u2019s point of view on that and giving them equal access to any liquidity support that they require.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00224e74586b7cdb49b0b7a0d0c26598ab58\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e74586b7cdb49b0b7a0d0c26598ab58\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for the question. I don\u2019t think that, in terms of the way we write legislation, we would be going into that level of detail. That is not how we write legislation. But I do want to acknowledge the issue that he is raising and the fragility, from time to time, of some of the financial institutions in New Zealand. The member raises the question, for example, of credit unions and the importance of making sure that those whose funding is within those bodies who, as the member points out, can often come from lower-income groups, are protected. I acknowledge that point. Whether the exact answer to that question has the same size liquidity buffers as other institutions is a matter, I believe, that falls within the operational purview of the bank. But I think the member is raising an important issue for New Zealand, and one that can be taken up. But it would not, in my opinion, be appropriate for us to be dealing with that within the legislation. But I do think he is raising an issue of some importance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002217d85264efea4027bd6d770c31c1dfc8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002217d85264efea4027bd6d770c31c1dfc8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 5 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 44 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222127fcbaa00f42d4a0af5150ccd3b254\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 45\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00229c11de758fc845bcbf6bdc526811feba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c11de758fc845bcbf6bdc526811feba\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Andrew Bayly\u2019s amendment to Part 5 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 46 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227d206afd280f498eaf30e77134214d2d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022742edaf986b24d7b965624e80e1d6c46\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 5 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 45\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 5 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221d0b74847b2b4c0bbb9758b1916b9b2b\u0022\u003EPart 6  Miscellaneous provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022084a6158e8c340048eacf4cc69b39fcc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022084a6158e8c340048eacf4cc69b39fcc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 6. This is the debate on clauses 258 to 297 and Schedule 4, miscellaneous provisions. The question is that Part 6 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00223ff29ca930d04cfea2b4b40799744647\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ff29ca930d04cfea2b4b40799744647\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E This is the miscellaneous section of the bill which tidies up a number of matters. The only one which I want to draw the House\u2019s attention to is Subpart 4 on the Council of Financial Regulators. This is something that I do believe is important. It is the statutory recognition of, effectively, the importance of coordination amongst those whose job it is to regulate our financial system in New Zealand. We saw in the wake of the royal commission of inquiry into the Australian banking system the importance of the way in which, for example, the Reserve Bank and the Financial Markets Authority (FMA) work together. I believe that there is considerable scope to improve the way in which regulation works in our financial sector to make it clearly understandable to the public to ensure that the interests of consumers are held in the highest regard, that we can do better in those areas in a more coordinated way. So I am particularly pleased that the council is recognised here, its membership with the bank, the FMA, the Treasury, and what is effectively the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment but also includes the Commerce Commission. It is important to, I think, all New Zealanders to know that those agencies are working together, and by giving that body statutory recognition, I believe we are enhancing that work. Otherwise, the part represents a number of tidy-up - related matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022485a3f6e59074970a1f89cfb92130838\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022485a3f6e59074970a1f89cfb92130838\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to acknowledge what the Minister has said. I think it\u2019s an important element of what is in this part of the bill. It\u2019s an important function that we make sure that we do get proper regulation across the financial sector, involving all the key organisations. So, in terms of this being a part of this bill, it\u2019s a good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2ffe85738b9465790751b774e13d36a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2ffe85738b9465790751b774e13d36a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 6 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 44 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223179e653cb3e4f5d9af9218a8bf69d9c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 45\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221283f55d87954cd88733dc8d4ebfd898\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 6 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 45\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 6 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022a018ea936f1b4fab952911e3ee295ec4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a018ea936f1b4fab952911e3ee295ec4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Schedule 1 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 44 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002265e5d364a99346a18df3cb26649ab685\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265e5d364a99346a18df3cb26649ab685\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Andrew Bayly\u2019s amendment to Schedule 1 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 46 is ruled out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee. Therefore, the question is that Schedule 1 as amended stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003ESchedule 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002237bed095993844f89b24fc238d7d73c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237bed095993844f89b24fc238d7d73c4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Schedule 4 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 44 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7780bd519244cf9bd40c53cb36e075d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7780bd519244cf9bd40c53cb36e075d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Andrew Bayly\u2019s amendment to Schedule 4 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 45 is ruled out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee. Andrew Bayly\u2019s amendment to Schedule 4 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 48 is ruled out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003ESchedule 4 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022df2d1fcdab614db49810a2a3d448bca8\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022758b9c3c5b6545b59fbff4b40d09145b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022758b9c3c5b6545b59fbff4b40d09145b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to our final debate, clauses 1 and 2. This is the debate on title and commencement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228fa0931adf184d0995048bef004ff8b9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 45\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022765a30a98acc4f67ab005b50c8c216f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022765a30a98acc4f67ab005b50c8c216f6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment to clause 2, set out on Supplementary Order Paper 44 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229e8ef12fadd74618959363bd1a8096cd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 45\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000701\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002200d581105fab486b9b6c40ff9de81a01\u0022\u003EFamily Court (Supporting Children in Court) Legislation Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228ce397d654ca42aa8b060ca37785ae6d\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000704\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Care of Children Act 2004\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4dcbd9f5efb47ada09075363656986b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4dcbd9f5efb47ada09075363656986b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to the Family Court (Supporting Children in Court) Legislation Bill. We come first to Part 1. This is the debate on clauses 3 to 9, Amendments to Care of Children Act 2004. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u0022270cede6b096481f802cd34049299067\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022270cede6b096481f802cd34049299067\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I just wanted to make a few remarks at the outset of the Part 1 debate on the Family Court (Supporting Children in Court) Legislation Bill. The purpose of the bill is, essentially, to make the process for the Family Court, for those going through the Family Court process, and especially Care of Children Act processes, more effective and efficient.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThe history of this bill is that there were some changes made by the previous Government in 2014. My predecessor Andrew Little asked an independent panel in 2018 to assess the changes and the impact that those Family Court changes had, in effect, meant for the effectiveness of the process and the impact on the participants. One of the aspects that is discussed in Part 1 is in order to make all the process of Care of Children Act applications much more effective and efficient.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThe theory behind the 2014 changes was that if you removed lawyers from the equation and allowed parties to a Care of Children Act application to try and sort out their differences that you would have fewer cases in court and therefore reduce the harm to both parents or caregivers or children. The reality was that we\u2019ve seen the opposite happen because the number of what are called without notice applications for Care of Children Act applications has increased.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI just wanted to make sure that we gave some context to that, because before the changes that were made in 2014 we saw that there were a little under 7,300 without notice applications being filed. What we saw after the changes coming into effect is the number of without notice applications for Care of Children Act applications increasing to 12,182.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003ENow, obviously that increase, on the face of it, would be a concern to most. But some more investigation has shown that without notice applications actually take 2.1 times more court time than on notice applications. That means that the children involved in those cases and the parents involved in those cases in the increasing number of without notice applications are actually spending a lot more time appearing before the courts and it is taking a lot longer for those disputes to be resolved. Justice tells me that it takes on average 37 days to resolve a case through mediation, while if the issue is going through court it can take close to 270 days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI actually think, having looked at the minority report from the National Party, that we actually do want the same thing: we want fewer people going through the court process and we want to make sure that that process is a lot more efficient in terms of time, because we\u2019re reducing the harm on children when things aren\u2019t resolved, and the stress and anxiety on parents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThe other aspect of Part 1 that I might speak about more in detail in another subsequent contribution is the ability to give children more of a voice and an obligation again on how we appoint the lawyers for the children and what we might have to prioritise within that, and then again, an obligation from the lawyers to make sure that issues are dealt with as expediently and efficiently and effectively from the point of view of the parties as swiftly as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI do have some difference of opinion on some of the issues that were raised in the minority report about how we would go in affecting that, but we do believe making sure that we can give children a voice in the process and putting more demands on making sure we can make that process more efficient and making changes to the system where we can reduce numbers of without notice applications will be a starter to making sure the Family Court process is a much safer place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00229f66876cdf754f56af8f74a95fb6f729\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f66876cdf754f56af8f74a95fb6f729\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and can I start by thanking the Minister in the chair, Kris Faafoi, for the initial exposition that he\u2019s given us in relation to the Family Court (Supporting Children in Court) Legislation Bill, obviously geared towards Part 1. I thank the Minister for acknowledging the fact that likely everyone in this House, and certainly speaking on behalf of National, we on this side of the House, does support the intent that he\u2019s articulated: of course, to reduce the stress, including as to time frames, faced by those in the Family Court, including and especially children. It\u2019s not one of the areas of policy where different sides of the debate, I think, would have different aims that they want to achieve, ultimately, so we\u2019re discussing, really, different ways to achieve that. So that\u2019s a positive start, I think, to tonight\u2019s discussion of Part 1 and beyond.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI did not personally have a hand in writing the minority view on behalf of National, within the select committee report\u2014indeed, I didn\u2019t sit on the select committee that considered the bill. However, I\u2019ve read and understood those points, and I think that the Minister has done a pretty reasonable job of acknowledging those points. Obviously, he\u2019s begging to differ in terms of the emphasis that he, on behalf of the Government, would place on those various points, but I think that they\u2019re worth traversing nonetheless, so that all involved in this area of policy and practice can understand the good-faith intent of the Parliament as a whole to trying to improve the situation of the Family Court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ELooking at some of the particular matters that are being amended within Part 1, the first relates to clause 4, which would amend section 5 of the Care of Children Act 2004. I\u2019d just like to draw the Minister\u2019s attention to the wording of the bill, as it\u2019s now back before the House, and just give him an opportunity to speak to the amendment whereby the Parliament will be saying that \u201Ca child must be given reasonable opportunities to participate in any decision affecting them.\u201D I think, as far as it goes, that\u2019s all pretty straightforward and, hopefully, non-controversial, of course the big-picture context being that the decisions should reflect the best interests of the child, not only in terms of their legal representation but, of course, ultimately, the outcome, the substantive matter that\u2019s been brought before the Family Court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI presume, in saying that, that the reasonable opportunities that are to be given\u2014that that should be seen in the context of the circumstances that apply. Most obviously, the child themselves may or may not be capable of forming a view, or it might be a pretty limited view, reflecting the fact that they might be young or at a particular stage of learning development. If I understand correctly the annotation of the bill, some wording around that, about a child who is capable of forming their own views about a matter, that\u2019s been struck out. So just seeking, in the first instance, some reassurance from the Minister that his policy intent is that the child be given a reasonable opportunity to participate but in a way that\u2019s appropriate to them in the circumstances that he or she\u2014that is, the child\u2014finds himself before the court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo at that point, I\u2019ll pause and reflect on whether the Minister\u2019s in a position to answer, but I think he\u2019s indicating that I should continue to speak\u2014yeah, OK\u2014and maybe raise a couple of other points that he might care to respond to at the same time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EOne of the points that the National Party members of the committee have raised in this differing view is to do with the ability of other players, for want of a better phrase, in the context of a court case, or outside a court case, potentially\u2014and that\u2019s really the point. So talking about overseas jurisdictions using psychologists or social workers and other professionals who are not in the position of being lawyers per se but nevertheless having an understanding of the legal process, but, more importantly, an understanding of what might be happening in a family and what might be happening inside the head of a child who finds themselves\u2014or children, indeed\u2014in the situation of having to navigate this complicated and no doubt often distressing scenario in which they find themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019ll be keen to know if the Minister can reassure us that as a matter of policy intent to match what appears to be in front of us within Part 1 of the bill, there\u2019s some thought being given to resourcing the court or, again, the legal system or the dispute resolution system more broadly to have such people able to feed into the system. The point that the Minister makes is noted and understood and to some extent reflected by the profession, that to avoid having lawyers involved might be a worthy aim, but, of course, there are ways to circumvent that. He\u2019s spoken about the without notice applications. That\u2019s all fine as far as it goes, but if we do not replace that expertise and that involvement by non-lawyers, then the fear, of course, is that we simply revert to the situation that in 2014 had needed some amendment, albeit not the kind of amendment that the other side is now approving of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo I think at that point I\u2019ll see if the Minister will respond to those points, and if he will, then I\u2019ll look forward to those. If not, I\u2019ll continue, but he is indeed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1dff4bc60b54a0f839e9721759eed99\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1dff4bc60b54a0f839e9721759eed99\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Can I thank Mr Penk for the issues that he raised. Very simply, in terms of the amendments to clause 4 that he mentioned, yes, it does reflect the policy intent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EHe does raise a good point in terms of the subsequent issue that he raised and we have seen fit to amend the commencement date in order to make sure that there is a process to ensure that there is a framework in order to ensure the kinds of questions that he is talking about\u2014about how we engage with young people, etc.\u2014is done in a safe manner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI acknowledge that while, I think, the close-to-70 submissions that the Justice Committee heard were pretty well balanced towards support or neutral on the bill, there were some issues raised about the safety of children within that process. And, in order to do that, there is a stocktake being done of how we do have frameworks in order to make sure that children can participate in that and that that is done in a safe way to make sure that when children\u2019s needs are taken into account, especially when family violence is involved, we have the right expertise and frameworks in order to deal with that. Again, I want to reflect some of the concerns raised, especially when there was trauma or family violence involved. Some submitters said that involving children in that process can be re-traumatising but that it could be managed. I think that is why undertaking the stocktake and audit to ensure that there is a safe framework for that to happen will ensure that children will still be able to have their views expressed as to what they want to see as a decision, not to make the decision, in order for the process\u2014and, hopefully, not a court process\u2014to determine what is in their best interests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022483db75a369c4f3e84d44ea5fe2bd281\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022483db75a369c4f3e84d44ea5fe2bd281\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for the opportunity to take a call on the committee stage of this bill. I have a couple of additional questions for the Minister in relation to clause 7, which is in relation to the new provision, which says that \u201CWhen appointing a lawyer to represent a child, the court or Registrar must, so far as is reasonably practicable, appoint a lawyer who is, by reason of their personality, cultural background, training, and experience, suitably qualified to represent the child.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ENow, a number of submitters submitted on this point and made some submissions around what they felt was a lack of training or a lack of skills of lawyers for children when it comes to these areas. So I guess the question is: it\u2019s all well and good to put a requirement on the court or the registrar to say that they must do their best to try and ensure that the lawyer for the child has all of these things, but the reality is, from a skills perspective\u2014the argument put from submitters was that there\u2019s not necessarily the right skills base actually amongst lawyers to actually be able to adequately fulfil this. So there are two questions to the Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe first one is: is there going to be any additional resourcing or support given to try to actually ensure that there is adequate training for lawyers so they\u2019re able to best provide for children in this way, to actually give effect to this clause? And I guess the second one is whether the Minister considered whether other professionals who do have skills and training, working with children, could actually do that in a better way, to be an advocate for the child rather than necessarily having to be a lawyer as well. So a couple of questions there. I look forward to the Minister\u2019s response to those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u0022154e23cfecf04d12aaced94494cc8f77\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022154e23cfecf04d12aaced94494cc8f77\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Very good questions, so thank you for asking them. It does go back to the stocktake process that I just mentioned to Mr Penk. I think, upon reflection, around making sure that we do have a solid framework\u2014I think that was a valid concern raised by, I think, the Law Society during that select committee submissions to say that in some instances, depending on place and time, the ability of someone to have the requisite skills may not necessarily be available. I do think there is time available now, while we do some of the work on the stocktake and while the provisions of the bill will come in, when that stocktake is in place and the resources are ready to be able to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EFurther to the point that the member has raised, in order to reflect the best interests of the child, of the lawyers acting on behalf of the child, I do think it is important that we do have an obligation in the process for the lawyer to understand all the vagaries that the child may have. And if that means understanding the cultural context of which they are coming from, I think it is also important. I do think, again, with the aim of the bill trying to make sure that the efficiency and effectiveness of the Family Court process is enhanced, that if we are able to do that, we\u2019re able to do that in the context of what is best for the child and what both parties mean. We may be able to either skip the court process\u2014which I think everyone agrees would be the preference\u2014in order to get a quick resolution and understand what is best and have two parties that agree, as opposed to dragging a court process through 270 days, which is happening more often now, and, I think, putting families and children in more vulnerable positions for longer than when these changes were made in 2014.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u0022f934c009df2a4192b81d11592fc8721e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f934c009df2a4192b81d11592fc8721e\u0022\u003ENICOLE McKEE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you, and thank you, Minister. The ACT Party does support this bill, but I have one question, and that is also on clause 7. It\u2019s in regard to looking at the appointment of a lawyer whereby the statement reads in clause 7(2): \u201CWhen appointing a lawyer to represent a child, the court or Registrar must, so far as is reasonably practicable, appoint a lawyer who is, by reason of their personality, cultural background, training, and experience, suitably qualified to represent the child.\u201D When I gave my second reading speech, I made the point that I think it\u2019s important that we get the right person representing the child. But I have concerns when we start legislating about personality and cultural background. I\u2019ve tabled an amendment whereby I request your thoughts upon removing the words \u201Cby reason of their personality, cultural background, training, and experience\u201D. So it would actually read: \u201Cappoint a lawyer who was suitably qualified to represent the child\u201D. Then that way we ensure that it is the best person for the child, and any judge or appointee would be able to actually make sure that things like personality and cultural background are automatically taken without it having to be legislated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019d just like to leave that in your court there, Minister, because I would like to fully support this, but do have concerns that we do not have the expertise within our courts and, therefore, may not be getting the right person to represent the child. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022 data-id=\u0022661f7fb2d74a40eaa321dcaceab5885d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022661f7fb2d74a40eaa321dcaceab5885d\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO (National):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Chair and Minister. Look, in taking this call this evening, I\u2019m cognisant of the fact that the Minister does not have experience of practising in the Family Court, and, therefore, the answers are in that context. So I\u2019m going to refer to clause 4 of the bill, Minister, where it talks about inserting section 5(g), which says that \u201Ca child must be given reasonable opportunities to participate in any decision affecting them.\u201D Minister, I put it to you\u2014mindful that I wasn\u2019t on the Justice Committee and I didn\u2019t hear submissions, mindful that I have been counsel for children, mindful that children being burdened with the responsibility of making decisions as affect them, subject to their age, is detrimental to their welfare and best interests. So, Minister, could you please answer: why is it that it\u2019s considered that a child should be making decisions as affect them when there is proven psychological evidence that that is detrimental to a child for them to be burdened with that responsibility, when it is actually the lawyer\u2019s duty of care and role to be the voice, and it is the judge who makes the decision, not a child participating in that decision making? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u002283f0c71a521b45b7a68ac6ca338a4a5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283f0c71a521b45b7a68ac6ca338a4a5c\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the learned colleague for making that submission. I would, again, ask her to look at the clause. It is not asking or enforcing a decision from a child. It is, in essence, allowing an opportunity for the child to participate in that decision process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EAgain, as her colleague pointed out, I think most people would want to ensure that there is an opportunity to understand what is in the best interests of the child in a care of children application, and the purpose of this bill is to give the effective and efficient ability for that to happen. We believe it is important to make sure we can do that quickly. I\u2019ve mentioned the delays in the Family Court process because of the without notice applications. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EMaking sure that we\u2019re giving that opportunity is, we think, pretty fundamental to making sure that it can happen. It is not the child who makes the decision, but we think it\u2019s important that the child does have a voice in that process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022 data-id=\u002218baf85a548e466eb944ceb8f17dc388\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218baf85a548e466eb944ceb8f17dc388\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO (National):\u003C/span\u003E Accordingly then, Minister, would it not be better to have included in section 5(g) in clause 4\u2014rather than \u201Ca child must be given reasonable opportunities\u201D\u2014that the onus is on the voice or the representative of that child to do so, and not the child presumably? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u0022d06ef5aa4e6945a1ae8cf5886a696277\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d06ef5aa4e6945a1ae8cf5886a696277\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I think that goes to the wider context of the changes within the bill. As one of her colleagues mentioned\u2014Mr Brown\u2014the change is where we are looking at a best fit for the appointment of a lawyer to understand the situation of a child to ensure that we can understand and express what the child would like to be taken into consideration during the process and what the child\u2019s best interests and perspective are, and making sure that we have the person to best represent that, as the member may have just outlined. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022d870e09ea0a9435988662fbb3b9afac3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d870e09ea0a9435988662fbb3b9afac3\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m just keen to get from the Minister, please, in relation to clause 7, which is, coincidentally, amending section 7 within the Care of Children Act 2004, which is, of course, legislation that\u2019s being amended by this Part 1\u2014I\u2019m just curious to have the Minister\u2019s comments on the record in relation to the appointment of the lawyer. The philosophy seems to be that it should be a person who is suitably qualified to represent the child, and I think that certainly makes sense as far as it goes, and, of course, a number of criteria are outlined for that\u2014personality, cultural background, training, and experience. Our friend from the ACT Party has stated her view on behalf of ACT that there should be a more general qualification or appropriateness standard applied, as opposed to being quite so prescriptive as that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EMy own concern is really more to place on record, I think, what certainly I hope we would all agree, which is that the representation of the child is the key factor in all of that, and I make that comment in reference to the select committee discussion where the select committee members turned their mind, I think reasonably, to the question of whether there might be discrimination alleged against the lawyer who wasn\u2019t appointed to represent a child. I was pleased to see that the select committee ultimately decided first of all that that wouldn\u2019t be a breach of the lawyer\u2019s rights, but I would hope more fundamentally as well that the feelings or the professional opportunities of the lawyer involved are much less important than the child receiving the best possible representation that she or he might have, to whatever extent they might have an involvement in that and to whatever degree different qualifications or characteristics might be taken into account. So, really, placing that on record in my own case and inviting the Minister to state that as well, because I feel as though that represents an important philosophical point about the legislation, even if it may or may not make a practical distinction in terms of how it\u2019s interpreted going forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u0022608474cc2c8f45cf9df9ad8038e05972\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022608474cc2c8f45cf9df9ad8038e05972\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Can I thank Mr Penk for reinforcing the committee\u2019s point. The thinking in and around personality was to ensure that we had someone in a position to represent a child who could build a rapport with that child, and a personality to be able to build a rapport with a specific child, to be able to represent them as effectively as possible. As Ms Hipango has mentioned, I don\u2019t come from a legal background, but personality does go a long way in building a rapport with individuals, especially in situations where they may be under extreme pressure, to make sure that we can reflect their views in the Care of Children Act process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003ESo I acknowledge the concerns that were raised in the Supplementary Order Paper from Nicole McKee, but in order to make sure we have a full picture of what we\u2019re trying to achieve here, not only just being trained and suitably qualified to represent the lawyer, again, also having an understanding of some of their cultural competencies, their experience, but also that personality and getting the right fit. I think, as we can all imagine, there would be a range of children in different situations and willingness to be able to partake in a Care of Children Act process. Some may be freer to participate in that and give their views. Some may need a little more sensitivity and coaxing to have their views expressed, and I think that\u2019s some of the thinking behind why there is such a broad description within clause 7 as it stands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00229bfdea2e49ba47a78d04da3354d8982a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229bfdea2e49ba47a78d04da3354d8982a\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just a couple more small points from me. I don\u2019t suppose I\u2019ll need too much time to make these additional points in relation to Part 1, but, really, again, just for the sake of the record as much as anything. Remaining on clause 7, amending section 7 of the legislation, in relation to the appointment of a child, I see that\u2019s to be someone who is, by reason of various different factors, suitably qualified to represent the child. And it seems to be, just reading that on the face of it that it\u2019s intended that it will be a person who is appropriate to represent the child in a very broad sense qualified, I suppose we could consider to have a particular meaning about legal qualification, coming as it does in the context of training experience, but my expectation and hope is that that\u2019s a very broad kind of understanding of appropriateness, so I\u2019ll just sort of flag that small point on the way through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe second is actually not dissimilar, but it\u2019s in clause 8 of the legislation, so that would insert a new section 7AA, and this is headed: \u201CLawyer appointed to represent child must explain proceedings to child\u201D. There it\u2019s talking about the age and maturity of the child, and the context is that an explanation is to be given in a way that the child is most likely to understand. I think that the word \u201Cmaturity\u201D really would sort of cover both aspects, because the maturity could go to not only their actual age but their ability to comprehend, maybe taking into account any sort of learning difficulties or developments that the child might have. So if there\u2019s any further comment the Minister can make on that, fine; if not, then happy to sort of let the words take what I would consider their ordinary natural meaning, and therefore sort of pass into the record on that basis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EMy third and final point\u2014and I did say that these were relatively small, but potentially important none the less\u2014relates to clause 9, and this is the duties of lawyer when giving advice. If the Chair will indulge me, I\u2019ll just read these words, because I think they\u2019re important: \u201C(2) Before commencing a proceeding under this Act, a lawyer must take any steps that, in the opinion of the lawyer, assist in enabling the issues in dispute to be resolved as safely, fairly, inexpensively, simply, and speedily as is consistent with justice.\u201D The reason I highlight those is that it seems to me these are absolutely consistent with existing legal ethical obligations. I would like to think moral obligations as well would come into the reckoning of any person who calls themselves a lawyer for a child, but, certainly, as a matter of professional standards, these are the kinds of considerations that a lawyer should take into account anyway. So I\u2019m not sure that that adds terribly much by spelling it out, but I also don\u2019t think it does any particular harm. But if there\u2019s anything obvious that I\u2019ve missed in that regard, then I\u2019d invite the Minister to add to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EOf course, all of this is in the context of that bigger picture question of the lawyer\u2019s role as distinct from the role of others and the centrality of that in the legal process, so that\u2019s a bigger picture question which will only be resolved in time, I suspect. I hope, for the sake of all those who are caught up in the Family Court situation, including and especially children, that it does certainly improve from the situation currently, and, indeed, the situation that was faced in 2014 with delays being obviously quite damaging to many family situations in the development of the poor small persons caught up in the process. So any comments on those specific points we would welcome, otherwise that\u2019s probably about as much as I would seek to contribute under the heading of Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u002205fffc7066a1404792877f760a33a936\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205fffc7066a1404792877f760a33a936\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I thank Mr Penk for his contributions to Part 1. Quite simply, there\u2019s nothing like a bit of reinforcement in terms of trying to ensure that we do make the system as efficient and effective as possible. I\u2019m not suggesting that the duties of lawyers are the overriding reason as to why there are delays in the court process. Obviously we want to introduce care of children lawyers at the beginning of the process to be able to navigate those early stages quicker, because, as I mentioned earlier, mediation at the beginning can make about 250 days difference in the resolution. I think there\u2019s also a wider issue of the management of cases within the court system that will need addressing at some stage, and a coming together of these issues, I think, will get us to a point where we have a system that is, on behalf of New Zealanders, the most efficient system that takes the best interests of all parties involved and does the least harm. And that\u2019s what clause 9\u2014I think it was that the member was alluding to\u2014goes in some way to reinforcing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI think there is some general concern in some of these processes, whether by tactics or by direction, hearings can be delayed or put off in the court process. And, again, the duty on the lawyer to ensure that that doesn\u2019t happen, I think, will ensure that especially children in the middle of these processes can have a resolution to a very difficult period in their lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u0022352dc1cdf92c485cbb2020612138f1f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022352dc1cdf92c485cbb2020612138f1f1\u0022\u003ENICOLE McKEE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, Minister, for answering the question that I put up earlier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EI go back to clause 7, Minister, around the personality and cultural background. You gave a very good explanation there, and I thank you for that. I would\u2019ve thought, though, Minister, that those qualities would already be looked upon by the judge in appointing a counsel for the child. My question to you is: should a person who is not deemed to be culturally appropriate for that child is appointed, and there are concerns later raised about that person not having the personality or the cultural background, could this\u2014or had you thought about whether or not it could incur further delays as a new counsel for the child is appointed, if that indeed ends up being the case, because the appropriate person was deemed not to have been found in that first instance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7365af82b9c4a1b936d519ed37068e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7365af82b9c4a1b936d519ed37068e0\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I think, again, a valid question. I think the heart of that lies in some of the earlier language, which is as so far as reasonably practicable. I think most courts would make an effort to make sure that the best fit would be there for a lawyer of the child. As you said in your submission, you would have expected or assumed for that to be happening already. I believe there is no harm in making sure that is explicit and, again, in an effort to make sure that there is care and effectiveness for the child, to take into consideration what is best in terms of personality, cultural background, training, and experience.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI do envisage there will be some situations where that may not be possible\u2014where especially in smaller rural areas or provincial towns where the pool of lawyers that may be available to do the work in a timely manner may not necessarily be available. That, again, the court might see that best fit is made. But I\u2019m confident that making it explicit within the bill that these factors, where it is practicable, are taken into account, and where best efforts are made to make sure that we do have someone appropriate for the child, will be more effective than this situation that we have at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022 data-id=\u00221d7b1f5bae4b4f94a4c95ec8869d92a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d7b1f5bae4b4f94a4c95ec8869d92a4\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO (National):\u003C/span\u003E Minister, just to labour the point in relation to the appropriate, it appears to be the qualities of the lawyer as opposed to the competencies\u2014could the Minister please explain, when appointing a lawyer to represent a child, that the Family Court has complex issues and a variety of proceedings within the Family Court? Accordingly, would the Minister not consider it appropriate that there is a match of the lawyer\u2019s skills and competence to the specific case requirements, in addition to those factors of personality, cultural background, training, and experience to suitably qualify to represent the child?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EI put it to the Minister to consider that further to what is outlined in clause 7, subclause (2) proposed that in the appointment of a lawyer, the court must also consider the match of the lawyer\u2019s skills and/or competence to the specific case requirements, bearing in mind that the Family Court not only deals with domestic violence, it also deals with custody, guardianship, separation, access, contact, care and protection, and welfare\u2014a number of issues\u2014which adds to the complexity and, therefore, ought to reflect upon the skillset and competence of the lawyer being matched to the specific proceedings to represent the child. What is the Minister\u2019s view on that, please?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u002235b1d29ec85f4d7396b204db35b459f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002235b1d29ec85f4d7396b204db35b459f0\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E It is pretty clear because at the end of the clause, they\u2019re \u201Csuitably qualified to represent the child\u201D, and if that person isn\u2019t qualified to represent the child in that specific instance, then I\u2019m pretty sure that the court will adjudicate that that person isn\u2019t the right person to represent the child. I would also reflect that the independent panel recommended the framing of the clause, and I\u2019m also told that the clause reflects the practice note and also aligns with\u2014and I haven\u2019t seen this section\u2014section 159 of the Oranga Tamariki Act in order to make sure there is consistency across pieces of legislation. So, to answer the member\u2019s question, I don\u2019t think the clause and the point that she is making are mutually exclusive. I think, if the person is suitably qualified to represent the child within that scope of practice, then the court will make a decision that they are the suitable person in that instance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4aa1f0358ba4d79ade9f0c7c2e915a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4aa1f0358ba4d79ade9f0c7c2e915a0\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002284a28c6e973847ab9260b82f67a5a391\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284a28c6e973847ab9260b82f67a5a391\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the question be now put. The question is that Nicole McKee\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 7 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002217160469efb14a4f80c510566ca801a7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b5be707510964110ab04feca74bc9335\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 87\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; ACT New Zealand 10; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 33\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000757\u0022\u003EThe result corrected after originally being announced as Ayes 77, Noes 33.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002200e23ac297884c35b0bb1516ea28d1e4\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendment to Family Dispute Resolution Act 2013\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022adb76a59a0a245428c41043bb34d9ab0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022adb76a59a0a245428c41043bb34d9ab0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 2, and Part 2 is the debate on clauses 10 and 11, amendment to the Family Dispute Resolution Act 2013. The question is that Part 2 stand part. My apologies, let me announce the correct count to the last vote. The Ayes are 87, the Noes are 33. The Ayes have it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u0022644af62443fc4e438bb12f3d50cc1f6c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022644af62443fc4e438bb12f3d50cc1f6c\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair. Part 2 essentially amends the family dispute resolution in order to give children who are subject to dispute resolution process the same opportunities to participate in decisions that affect them. Again, just reflecting some of our key messages from the debate during Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThe panel that looked into the 2014 changes found that the system doesn\u2019t necessarily recognise child participation and it is not widely recognised or valued. The panel also identified that there was limited participation by children in issues that affect them. There is a concern whether their views are obtained or considered when decisions are made. Again, I think, similar to the concerns in Part 1, in order to make this process as effective and efficient in reducing the harm that sometimes the system and delays in the system can have, making sure you have representation early in the system is important. Resolutions outside of the courtroom can mean that significant delays can be prevented. At the end of the day, those delays for the children, I think, can increase massive amounts of anxiety for them. So, again, these changes mirror the care of children process for the family dispute resolution process. Again, we look forward to being able to debate this as part of Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3e2fb655df8449bb21a0049b0b8ecaa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3e2fb655df8449bb21a0049b0b8ecaa\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Obviously, Part 2 is a pretty small part, and my contribution in discussing it won\u2019t be particularly large, either\u2014just a couple of points regarding that amendment of section 11 within clause 11. What a beautiful alignment of clauses and section numbers tonight, Madam Chair; I sense your excitement almost matches mine. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe phrase that sort of leaps out at me a little bit is the \u201Creasonable opportunities to participate in\u201D decisions affecting a child. I\u2019m quite pleased to see that the Justice Committee\u2014for which I can take no credit; I was not a member\u2014has talked about \u201Creasonable opportunities\u201D, plural. It seems to me that what\u2019s indicated in that is an intent that the opportunities would be regarded as arising on an ongoing basis. So, hopefully, the intent is that the family dispute resolution (FDR) provider does not merely consider at the start of the process, or perhaps in \u201Ctaking initial instructions\u201D, in quote marks, or in having an initial briefing, but really regards the obligation, actually, to have an ongoing consideration of what the children might be given by way of opportunity or opportunities to participate in decisions. Of course, it\u2019s an ongoing process\u2014a lot of back and forth in these things, often. So that\u2019s my first observation. Again, as in Part 1, I sort of offer it as a comment that Minister Faafoi\u2019s obviously welcome to contradict, but, failing which, I would hope we can take that I\u2019m on the right track and that the record will reflect accordingly that intent from the legislature as a whole.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EA couple of other small points within that same section: one is that I see that the select committee has recommended a different form of wording than that which had been introduced into the House, presumably by the Minister, or perhaps a predecessor\u2014I think the name the Hon Andrew Little was mentioned earlier. The select committee has steered away from a wording that talks about facilitating participation \u201Cto the extent \u2026 that the FDR provider considers appropriate\u201D. I think they\u2019ve made a fair swap with the alternate wording that they\u2019ve provided there. What we\u2019re going to end up with, I think, is a bit of give and a bit of take. So it\u2019s a stronger obligation\u2014instead of the FDR provider having merely to facilitate participation, they have to ensure that the children be given reasonable opportunities\u2014but that\u2019s qualified somewhat because the opportunities are as considered by the FDR provider to be appropriate. So a bit of give and take\u2014I think they\u2019ve landed in a pretty reasonable space there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThen my final point, I think, in relation to that would be just to ask the Minister to give a bit of an explanation about the way that\u2014I suppose it\u2019s a reflection, really, with some sadness, that we\u2019re talking about a situation where we\u2019ve got the phrase \u201Cchildren who are the subject of the dispute\u201D. There\u2019s no way around it. I mean, that\u2019s exactly what we\u2019re talking about here. But I suppose I just wanted to reflect the fact that in a contested situation, in litigation, it\u2019s a dispute and children are caught up in this. So, hopefully, the Minister would agree that the overall flavour and intent of the legislation would be to minimise the exposure of the children to the dispute and, without wanting to relitigate Part 1, just reflecting that the way that that can be achieved as best as possible, with more or less legal involvement, as the case may be, should be the aim of us all in this committee. So on that philosophical note, I will conclude my contribution on Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u00228086e8965cca44039849119426c9399b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228086e8965cca44039849119426c9399b\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Again, thank you to the member Chris Penk. My understanding is that child participation in the family dispute resolution (FDR) process, as it stands, is quite ad hoc. So the inclusion of this bill does put somewhat of an obligation on, or encouragement of, their participation, again, in the interests of working in their best interests. I\u2019d also note, as a last point to the member, the stocktake that I mentioned earlier, in terms of care of children processes and making sure that there are safe frameworks in order for that to happen, also applies to the FDR process, as well, to make sure\u2014I think some of the submissions that were made about keeping children safe, especially in traumatic situations, apply in the FDR environment as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022 data-id=\u0022a46527b1b8e645a280ec6ca8ea622865\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a46527b1b8e645a280ec6ca8ea622865\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Minister, further to the answer that you\u2019ve just given around participation in the family dispute resolution (FDR) process, there is no qualification within the bill, and certainly not within the proposed clause 11(ba), the extent of what participation is. And, Minister, you may well, or you may well not, be conversant with the submissions made by the New Zealand Law Society on this point. So could there be further clarification around what participation is? Does it require the child to be physically present? Does it require other elements of participation? If so, please state that, because there will be difficulty not just for\u2014and there is an issue about whether it should be the FDR provider or supplier, but around to what extent is participation and what does that require of the child?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u00223a795bceac1a446dab46a4052911a5ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a795bceac1a446dab46a4052911a5ea\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E As the justice Minister, I think everyone can assume that a couple of factors would come into play here. It depends on the individual circumstances of the child and what is in the best interests of a child. We had a bit of discussion earlier about clause 7, in Part 1, about some of the descriptions of what needs to be taken into account when a lawyer for the child is being appointed, and I also outlined that children will have their own different personalities and their own different wants and levels of comfort. So, in some instances, that may be the lawyer making a written submission on behalf of that child because the child may not want to go through a process of having to verbalise something in front of the people that are in front of them. I have relatively high observations\u2014relatively high opinions\u2014of the legal profession to make sure that they can make that judgment as to what is in the best interests of the child. I know the member has suggested that she has represented children in these cases, and I am sure that she has made judgments as to what level of participation is best for her client. And I am sure that those kinds of judgments will continue to be made depending on the situation of the case, the personality of the child, and the comfort and safety level as to which we want to make sure the environment of that these children are in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022 data-id=\u00228ec6fecfad8749b8a86fa2b6a55362a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ec6fecfad8749b8a86fa2b6a55362a6\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. With respect, Minister, I didn\u2019t suggest; I made a statement that I have actually represented children. May I just further elaborate on what you have indicated? Look, in relation to participation, I still am of the view, Minister, that it\u2019s not clear, not only to me or to this House but to those who are going to be required to interpret and apply the law. Lawyers for children don\u2019t make judgments; that\u2019s for the judge or the court to do. We are a voice and we articulate either the view of the child or the interests. So my question, again, around participation\u2014I put it to you\u2014would you please provide a level of clarity as to what that requires?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd1a125b4a1347918ea013ce1a345073\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd1a125b4a1347918ea013ce1a345073\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I don\u2019t think we want in legislation to prescribe precisely how the voice of the child in either care of children or family dispute resolutions should be enacted. So if the member is suggesting that we go to extreme detail about how participation should be prescribed or enforced in some of these extremely sensitive situations, again, the nature of these processes is sensitive. The personalities of the children and the family situations that they are in are extremely sensitive. What might suit one child may not suit another, and there may be multiple children in a care of children situation in one family. One may be confident to take one approach, and another may want to take a different approach. So I think that the courts and the lawyers involved in these situations, and the other professionals involved in these situations, are making judgments as to what is in the best interests of their clients as we speak, and if the member wants to prescribe that in great detail, then I think we force the hands of the people that we\u2019re trying to protect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022 data-id=\u0022b584280f507347bca29fa69e7d623d2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b584280f507347bca29fa69e7d623d2e\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Minister, I appreciate the attempts that you are trying to provide with clarity. With respect, the New Zealand Law Society made submissions seeking clarity with the recommendations that have been made, and I am articulating those. And the submissions were for seeking specification around what participation is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll move on to the next point, if I may, Minister: clause 11(ba), where it talks about what the family dispute resolution (FDR) provider would consider appropriate. Again, Minister, I bring to your and this House\u2019s attention that the New Zealand Law Society\u2019s submission and recommendation\u2014again, a speciality group of lawyers called Family Court lawyers, represented in these submissions by the New Zealand Law Society, made the recommendation, Minister, that clause 11 places the onus on the FDR provider rather than the FDR supplier to facilitate that participation of children in the mediation process. Minister, could you please explain why is it that the New Zealand Law Society, representing the specialist expert body of family lawyers representing children, which this bill has been drafted to address, has completely discounted and discredited that it should be an FDR supplier and not provider?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u0022d255500f72f642afb1d7401c633ed9d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d255500f72f642afb1d7401c633ed9d2\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I think, in recognition of a point that was made by the member\u2019s colleague Mr Penk earlier in the debate, alluding to a stocktake of the process both with the family dispute resolution (FDR) process and care of children processes, there is work being done by the Ministry of Justice, as we speak, to ensure the processes and framework for both the FDR and the care of children Act processes are fit for purpose and safe. So I think we acknowledge there is work to be done in order to have an environment where we can have a workforce and guidelines as to where the intent of this piece of legislation can be actioned, and that work is under way and yet to be completed. I know the member raises a point that the New Zealand Law Society has raised in terms of the operational functions around FDR providers and suppliers, and I am sure that will be looked at, that particular concern, during the stocktake process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022 data-id=\u002287db45854af14a45ba1b2cb49a7f098c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287db45854af14a45ba1b2cb49a7f098c\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO (National):\u003C/span\u003E Minister, with respect, you\u2019ve identified that there is somewhat of a discrepancy with your answer. On that basis, then, would it therefore not be more responsible to get the law\u2014the bill\u2014right and draft it so that there aren\u2019t problems that occur later? So I put it to you, Minister, that what you\u2019ve just identified is that there is a flaw, that there is an anticipated problem and fault, based on my question around the provider and the supplier, and the New Zealand Law Society identifying and recommending that the better law would be to have this bill amended from provider to supplier so that there are not those problems, as you\u2019ve anticipated, eventuating.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00224b96f572159f49c987874bbd2ff0892e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b96f572159f49c987874bbd2ff0892e\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7a78765e4d140a6a511f53642cce7a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7a78765e4d140a6a511f53642cce7a8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the question be now put. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c88084a0fb4f4c3298b179424bed8318\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Thank you, Madam Chair. I just think, in that case\u2014the member moved a motion\u2014the motion does actually need to be put. You\u2019ve moved straight on to the vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022b815d2f245054cc897eb719dcf7900cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b815d2f245054cc897eb719dcf7900cd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bf85763c5787428fb41b4aff2840924c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 87\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 33\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022906dbf235a434541b4d66b31c317b817\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 87\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 33\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002249459c536bd64977954532ae32cc1f9e\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022303b7db2de6242888df809ca715bcdb9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022303b7db2de6242888df809ca715bcdb9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to our final debate, clauses 1 and 2. This is the debate on clauses 1 and 2, which is title and commencement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022b344c05745994fb1af940ac9d473ec0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b344c05745994fb1af940ac9d473ec0d\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just a quick question, because we\u2019ve spoken in passing on the subject of commencement, the context was the Minister\u2019s comments about the stocktake that\u2019s to take place, and I see that the select committee had turned its collective mind to that in its consideration of the bill. So I think that\u2019s much of the explanation about why the recommendation has come through from the select committee that instead of the Act coming into force more or less immediately, effectively immediately, which is to say the day after the Royal assent, we\u2019ve got a split option. So \u201Cthe earlier of \u2026 [the] date appointed by the Governor-General by Order in Council\u201D, which is more or less the Minister and his Cabinet colleagues, or \u201Cthe date that is 2 years after the date on which this Act receives the Royal assent.\u201D, so a bit of time there to allow that flexibility for that work to happen. So that\u2019s, I think, pretty well understood.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI note that where you\u2019ve got a situation that it\u2019s in the hands of a Minister as opposed to Parliament to bring into force a law, it\u2019s important that the Minister isn\u2019t able to simply delay indefinitely and therefore defeat the will of Parliament. But because the mechanism is the earlier of two dates, and one of them is a certain date, being two years after the date of Royal assent, I think we\u2019re pretty safe there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EBut I just wonder if the Minister can speak about his philosophy that he\u2019ll apply in relation to the date that he determines that the Act can safely come into effect within that two-year window. So he talked about the stocktake\u2014can you give us a heads-up on, sort of, sign posts along the way or what he\u2019s going to need to have some comfort that the law can be brought into force? Just so that those members in the profession and others affected by it can have a degree of certainty about when this change will take place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u002248cb5e3800114052a2dfd8dfffe053e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248cb5e3800114052a2dfd8dfffe053e0\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. We expect the stocktake to be completed by the end of the year, and then in order to develop whatever comes out of stocktake will probably take another six to 12 months. I think that puts us pretty much in the area of the two years that are currently within clause 2 as it stands. If we are able to bring online provisions of the bill earlier that won\u2019t be to the detriment of the wider challenges of the bill, I think we\u2019ll certainly look to use the Order in Council process to bring those provisions in. Again, in order to make sure that we are effecting the change within the purpose of the bill, there are some provisions that I think we might be able to progress faster than others. Again, I don\u2019t want to pre-empt the stocktake, but in order to make sure we are bringing the changes in as soon as we can, we\u2019ll either use the Order in Council process or the two-year availability for the window for the stocktake to happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bedfce91015e429d866104f0f032abac\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 87\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 33\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e3751282fe42417189b7a6aa18f05dfc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 87\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; ACT New Zealand 10; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 33\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000785\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000786\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223b13738a76f54d8ab39f088c73f08ac2\u0022\u003EReport of Committee of the Whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022556024d9f5b448b6a95f121940fa71a9\u0022\u003EReport of Committee of the Whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002299d3d415ec9a45648c7a6106d869cfcb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299d3d415ec9a45648c7a6106d869cfcb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The committee has considered the Appropriation (2021/22 Estimates) Bill and reports progress. The committee has also considered the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Bill and reports it with amendment. The committee has also considered the Family Court (Supporting Children in Court) Legislation Bill and reports it without amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e8f65fdbdad24138bd3b55458848055a\u0022\u003EFair Trading Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ef046a7356f946c398f5ccb01efbeb3f\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u00222498fa912fd5435da4351cebe3c58b78\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222498fa912fd5435da4351cebe3c58b78\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Fair Trading Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e048a082c2444f6bb5dc4918267c70f5\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264fca3e415864c3f91e88f7e82854caf\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Fair Trading Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis is an important piece of legislation that will introduce new protections for business and consumers against unfair commercial practices. If someone is operating a fair and honest business, they have absolutely nothing to fear from this legislation. The bill\u2014in passing it, what we\u2019re doing is, firstly, introducing a prohibition against unconscionable conduct in trade. The second thing we are doing in passing this bill is extending protections against unfair contract terms in consumer contracts to small business contracts. And the third thing we\u2019re doing is legally empowering consumers and businesses to tell uninvited sellers to leave a property, including through the use of \u201Cdo not knock\u201D stickers. These protections are long overdue. Stakeholders have argued for them for a very long time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EI want to cover each of those three things in turn. I\u2019ll start with the unconscionable conduct changes, the prohibition. So that new prohibition has had a lot of talk around it, both in this House and amongst submitters. \u201CWhat does unconscionable conduct really mean?\u201D has been the question that has been asked, and \u201CWhy not prohibit unfair conduct or oppressive conduct, or at least perhaps find a word that\u2019s easier to say?\u201D Unconscionable conduct covers behaviour that\u2019s both unfair and oppressive. We\u2019re talking about serious misconduct here that goes beyond what\u2019s commercially necessary or appropriate, and that might involve a large business taking advantage of a small business\u2019s lack of bargaining power to pressure it into accepting certain contract terms. It could involve unreasonable tactics to pressure someone to buy something they don\u2019t want to and can\u2019t use. That could, in many cases, be a vulnerable person.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESome submitters and other members of the House have asked why we haven\u2019t introduced a definition of unconscionable conduct. I haven\u2019t gone with a definition, because that could limit the circumstances in which the protections could be used. I personally wouldn\u2019t want to predict the types of situations that could be defined as unconscionable conduct, and so I think it\u2019s really important that we don\u2019t define those terms in that way. The bill instead provides a list of factors that a court will consider when deciding whether someone\u2019s actions meet that test, and that includes things like whether an imbalance exists in bargaining power and whether that\u2019s a contributing factor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EOur neighbours across the Ditch have had a similar prohibition, and their courts, I note, have been successful at weeding out processes and practices which are truly unconscionable from those that might simply involve unequal bargaining power but no real misconduct, and I\u2019m confident that the prohibition will have the same effect over here. The bill makes it clear that we\u2019re targeting business practices which involve a high threshold of misconduct, and let me say again, just to be really clear: if people are operating a business in a fair way, they have nothing to fear from this change in the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe other key change made by this bill is, of course, the extension of the prohibition against unfair contract terms, protecting businesses as well as consumers. As the Minister responsible for commerce and consumer affairs, I hear stories from small businesses opposing unfair contract terms with larger businesses, and I\u2019m sure the Minister for Small Business hears similar stories. Currently, these small businesses can\u2019t really do much about unfair terms unless they want to walk away from that business, from a contract altogether, and, of course, they then lose that opportunity. Once the bill passes, I\u2019ll be able to assure those businesses who have come to me seeking help that they have new protections here in this provision that\u2019s in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s been some concern that the protections go too far and will interfere with large contracts that might be negotiated between parties who are quite capable of doing their own due diligence. I want to emphasise again that the protections only apply to standard form contracts. Those are ones where one party has no real power over the other in the negotiation, and if they don\u2019t like any of the terms, well, they can walk away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019re talking about fairer contract terms overall. They only apply to contracts worth less than $250,000 a year, and that limits the protections to smaller or more vulnerable businesses who don\u2019t have bargaining power and who aren\u2019t negotiating terms in larger, more strategic contracts. So we\u2019re just talking about situations where there isn\u2019t that power imbalance. The third thing which I mentioned in my introduction is the \u201Cdo not knock\u201D provisions. The bill builds on protections for consumers approached by door-to-door salespeople. Those changes mean that an uninvited seller must leave a residential property if they\u2019re asked to directly, or if those stickers are there, the \u201Cdo not knock\u201D stickers send a clear message.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe bill itself was considered in the previous parliamentary term by the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee, and I want to thank the members of that committee last term for their consideration of the bill, and for the public who submitted their ideas to make this bill better. Unique circumstances meant that that committee didn\u2019t report back to the House, and although therefore the committee didn\u2019t recommend any changes, we had taken into account the views of submitters and made a few changes to improve the bill through a Supplementary Order Paper (SOP). During the committee stage of this bill, the House considered these small amendments through the SOP that I introduced. I have heard some excitable comments from members across the House about how we\u2019d need to fix a vast number of things, gaping holes in the bill and so forth. Actually, the amendments needed to the bill were indeed only minor tweaks, but they\u2019re important tweaks, and we have made them through the committee stages and they\u2019ll carry through in the bill as it\u2019s passed this evening. They will then give businesses more certainty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EI\u2019m confident that the bulk of the framework is sound and that it will work well. The changes, though, introduced through the SOP, the first of them is to slightly adjust the threshold for businesses covered by the unfair contract terms protections to allow more businesses to benefit. The bill prohibits unfair terms in small trade contracts, where the contracts are worth less than $250,000 in a year. Previously, in the bill as it was originally drafted, contracts with related parties were captured, which meant that a firm that had contracts with both a parent and a subsidiary company which added up to $250,000 wouldn\u2019t be covered by the protections. Now, that was changed through the SOP. It had a change so that contracts with related parties don\u2019t count towards the threshold. That means there\u2019ll be more certainty for firms on whether the protections apply; it gives that clarity to everyone involved. It also means that more businesses will benefit from the protections.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThere were also some comments from members in the House during the second reading of the bill about uncertainty for insurance contract, and I\u2019m very pleased to be able to inform members that we\u2019ve engaged with the insurance industry to make minor tweaks to the bill and provide them with more certainty and a reduction of costs. That change aligns the bill with the Government\u2019s work on the insurance contract law review. That\u2019ll mean insurers won\u2019t need to review their contracts twice following two sets of law changes. So that\u2019s some more good news about how this bill has progressed and changed\u2014and been made better along the way. So, again, I want to thank the submitters on the bill. As I said before, these are relatively minor tweaks, but ultimately they will reduce costs and increase certainty for businesses, which is no small thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESo, in closing, this Government\u2019s goal is to create a productive, sustainable, and inclusive economy, where the interests of businesses and consumers are protected. This piece of legislation is one of the many things this Government is doing which contributes towards this aim, by providing better protections for businesses and consumers. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u002236b9eb43b72844aca37434adfc243fde\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236b9eb43b72844aca37434adfc243fde\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would start by indicating that on this side of the House, we oppose this bill. I think, when it comes to commerce and consumer affairs - type legislation in this House, most people would like to think that we\u2019re creating law that makes it easy for people to conduct business, and, from time to time, regulations need to be adjusted to update because some laws are quite old. But in terms of unfair conduct, such as the use of pressure tactics, targeting of vulnerable consumers, or drawing up of overly complicated contracts or one-sided contracts, it is something that we oppose\u2014you know, use of deception and things like that. We do oppose that, but we already have laws in place which actually can prosecute those behaviours to protect the consumers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EIn terms of some of the things that the Minister actually said, he began his speech by saying that, you know, he didn\u2019t want to define the unconscionable conduct. That was at the very first beginning sentence of his speech tonight. The issue is that back in 2013, the Fair Trading Amendment Act\u2014actually, I\u2019ll go back. The bill follows the updates of the New Zealand Fair Trading Act and the Consumer Guarantees Act and the Auctioneers Act, which was passed between 2010 and 2015. The Fair Trading Act went through the select committee process, and the select committee at the time opted not to include the unconscionable conduct law, which was similar to that that existed in Australia. The reason why they opted not to include it at the time was because they wanted to wait for a body of case law built up around what unconscionable conduct actually means. Now this Labour Government is actually introducing this law without the body of case law, I believe. I just think it is unfair for people to actually spend more money, because when laws are created, regulations are actually created for businesses. It means, particularly for small businesses, it\u2019s extra burden on them, extra money to figure out what unconscionable conduct actually means. It means money for lawyers. Lawyers can actually, you know, test this in a court of law, but for businesses, it means extra burden, extra costs. I think this Minister is actually putting those costs on businesses that should not have to spend that kind of money. When good laws are created, they shouldn\u2019t have to spend money on legal advice to define what unconscionable conduct means.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EI would\u2019ve preferred it if the Minister had decided to define it, to make it very, very clear. I quote some of the concerns that stakeholders\u2014and I actually quoted these in part in the previous iteration of our debate. Consumer New Zealand actually supported this law but recommended tighter drafting. And I quote\u2014it says, \u201CWe support the introduction of a ban on unconscionable conduct. We consider New Zealand consumers deserve better protection from unfair business-to-consumer conduct than currently provided. However, we are concerned the new [provision] may not have [the] intended effect\u201D\u2014is one of the things that they actually said. Business New Zealand also\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201CIt would be fair to say that addressing this issue has been a lengthy and \u2026 repetitive process and we have consistently made the point there must be clear evidence of a significant problem before any of the changes proposed are enacted. At no stage during the process - now lasting around 16 years - have we had any clear evidence yet despite this, issues apparently already dealt with have now resurfaced.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003ESo what has changed? Nothing, really\u2014nothing has actually changed. There\u2019s no evidence introduced that this unconscionable conduct exists. We can\u2019t even define it in legislation, but the burden is being put on our businesses, increasing the costs of good, working New Zealanders, mums and dads who run small businesses. It is a burden that they will now have to wear and face. I think if it\u2019s good law, we would support it, and in my opinion, this isn\u2019t one of them. I oppose this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022 data-id=\u0022182441d9ba924005b1d4bd4155b4080f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022182441d9ba924005b1d4bd4155b4080f\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE (Labour\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to take a call on this excellent piece of legislation. I acknowledge the Minister the Hon Dr David Clark for the work that he has done bringing this to the House\u2014or shepherding this through the House; I think it was the previous Minister who brought it in. I\u2019d also like to acknowledge the select committee and the work that they\u2019ve done. As the chair of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee, I appreciate all of those who have made submissions on this bill. As we heard from the Minister, those submissions have been taken into consideration and changes have been made in the bill. That is our very good democratic process in full operation, which we like to see.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EI\u2019m not going to take a long call. The Minister outlined quite clearly the aspects of the bill. He outlined some of the changes that we\u2019ve seen in the bill through this process. As we know, it prohibits unconscionable conduct in trade, extends the Act\u2019s existing protections against unfair contract terms, and strengthens the ability of consumers to require uninvited direct sellers to leave or not enter their property.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EI just want to quickly touch on the aspect around the uninvited direct sellers, because a recent survey from Consumer New Zealand of their members showed that 70 percent of people disliked door-to-door salespeople and want them to stop calling. I think I would be one of those 70 percent, because often someone comes to your door, trying to sell you something, and then you\u2019re like, \u201CWell, look, let me have a conversation and get back to you. Give me your card, give me your details.\u201D, and they are like, \u201CNo, you have to sign up right now.\u201D, and they pull out the iPad and they want to get your details right there, which is not good practice, in my opinion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003ESo I think I\u2019ve sort of just raised a couple of points there. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc8d5bda77994f5e8c3542e76688e267\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc8d5bda77994f5e8c3542e76688e267\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on behalf of the National Party and as a member of Parliament for Southland to speak on this bill. Note that National Party opposes this bill. As I noted in the second reading of this legislation, unclear law is bad law. Unnecessary and unneeded regulation only stifles New Zealand\u2019s productive sector. Now, there\u2019s nothing scarier than a Government saying \u201CYou\u2019ve got nothing to fear as long as you do the right thing\u2014but we\u2019re not going to tell you what the right thing is.\u201D And that\u2019s essentially what I heard from the Minister. The Minister said \u201CI haven\u2019t gone with a definition because I don\u2019t want to limit the circumstances in which it can be used. So, look, don\u2019t worry. If you\u2019re doing the right thing, you\u2019ll be fine. But we\u2019re not going to tell you what the right thing is.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re talking about small businesses here. And look, if I look at the penalties here\u2014the maximum penalties of $600,000 for a body corporate and $200,000 for individuals\u2014now, if I\u2019m operating a small business, I\u2019m going to be worried. I\u2019m going to want to know what the definition is so that I don\u2019t contravene it. So I don\u2019t become liable as an individual for a $200,000 fine and my business doesn\u2019t become liable for a $600,000 fine. Unfortunately, the Minister has just said \u201CYou\u2019ve got nothing to fear, if the business is operating the business in a fair way. But I\u2019m not going to tell you what a fair way is.\u201D The Government has an obligation and a duty to provide certainty in the law that it creates. Certainty is what businesses need, especially right now in a very uncertain environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EOne of the biggest things we\u2019re seeing across our communities, and certainly in my electorate of Southland, is a lack of workers. That leads to my next question, if you don\u2019t have certainty about what these rules are, you\u2019re going to need a workforce to interpret what these rules may or may not mean and how they apply to your business. Now, we have a huge shortage of workforce. We have even a shortage of lawyers. So this is a boon for lawyers, as my colleague said before. But we have a shortage of lawyers. So good luck finding a lawyer. And we saw in this House only a few weeks ago the Auditor-General had a shortage of auditors, so the Government had to extend the time for the Auditor-General to report back to the House by two months. We\u2019re talking about small businesses. Small businesses don\u2019t have the benefit of the Government that it\u2019s going to extend the time that they need to work out what unconscionable conduct may or may not mean and try to find the workforce to interpret that for them and make sure they don\u2019t become liable for a $600,000 fine, or a $200,000 fine for the individual.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThis is bad law. It\u2019s uncertain law that creates uncertainty in a difficult trading environment, and it is not well thought out. It is, unfortunately, in my estimation, not responsible for the Government to bring this piece of law in as it stands. After three readings, multiple reports, and a brief survey of Australian case law, we remain none the wiser and have no greater clarity or certainty about how this legislation may be applied. Ordinary small business people cannot have any certainty or clarity by looking at a statute and what the definition of unconscionable conduct would be. I note there are some subjective parts of the way that this may be interpreted in terms of what the court may have regard to in terms of \u201Cwhether an affected person was able to understand any documents provided by the trader.\u201D Well, good luck to a trader trying to determine whether or not an effective person was able to understand the documents they provided to them. That is a subjective matter for the court to determine and it\u2019s going to be very difficult for businesses to try to work that out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EBut I emphasise that we already have laws in place which can be used to hold those to account who try to exploit vulnerable consumers. Even if we take the Minister\u2019s argument at its highest that this bill improves market conditions for consumers, such a proposition fails the sniff test. Again, if we look at Australia\u2014which has a much larger and more complex trading environment\u2014since the unconscionable cultural trading legislation which passed in 2010, 11 years ago, they\u2019ve only had 16 cases that have been brought to their courts. The bottom line: this bill is a solution in search of a problem. The problem has been clearly defined and the definition has not been clearly defined. It fails to provide the certainty that is the responsibility of Government to provide to our business community. So with that, I would say I do not recommend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022 data-id=\u00228651be2a3ba54f66a144449d7cb6e5fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228651be2a3ba54f66a144449d7cb6e5fb\u0022\u003EANNA LORCK (Labour\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. As a small-business owner for, I think, about 16\u00BD to 17 years, I can speak with a bit of authority to say it\u2019s very, very important that we have bills like this that support fair trade. This is why I believe we must commend this bill to the House. It gives me great pleasure to do so. Congratulations to everybody involved. Thank you, Madam Speaker. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00221504a4c1a0444c45b0894c0b15f7ba50\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221504a4c1a0444c45b0894c0b15f7ba50\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: This debate is interrupted and is set down for resumption next sitting day. The House stands adjourned until 2 p.m. tomorrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 9.58 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20210803c7249e821d784c3f87244fb4d3d2c9cc000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"