"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fc9f0ac74b614feea4c2054e1a7d4659\u0022\u003EWEDNESDAY, 20 OCTOBER 2021\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022822e3c5bb3964045bd40014b7f46a4e7\u0022\u003EWEDNESDAY, 20 OCTOBER 2021\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e9ea2ce7f93645fba3178d8e361a38a0\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222fd02bc0fc27470db0213b6b1fc5fa67\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022515576011f684285940c185312f2dead\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022515576011f684285940c185312f2dead\u0022\u003EHon JACQUI DEAN (Assistant Speaker):\u003C/span\u003E Almighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the Queen and pray for guidance in our deliberations that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom, justice, mercy, and humility for the welfare and peace of New Zealand. Amen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220b78c5f6eb5a44d6b0f6fe05e6b912b4\u0022\u003ESpeaker\u2019s Rulings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002242838a0af6494efd8d1818e08f21b342\u0022\u003EWritten Questions\u2014Replies\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbb73309b1cb4836a75f0770a37105fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbb73309b1cb4836a75f0770a37105fd\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, at the request of the Minister of Health, I\u2019m going to rule on concerns about replies to written questions. Ministers have a responsibility to the House and through the House to the country to account for the public offices they hold. Questions are an important element of this accountability and Ministers should therefore take questions seriously and endeavour to give informative replies to questions they are asked. Speakers\u2019 ruling 186/5 applies equally to oral and written questions. Consistent with the importance of questions, I remind Ministers that they should not commence answers to questions with a political attack\u2014Speaker\u2019s ruling 191/3. This is especially true of answers to written questions which do not contain political statements and are not asked in the heat of the debating chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EGenerally, where a member is concerned with a reply to written questions, they are expected to raise it with the Minister first\u2014Speakers\u2019 ruling 196/4. However, when an answer commences with an unnecessary political attack on another party and especially when the matter has been raised in the past, it is reasonable that a member raises it directly with the Speaker. For the sake of clarity I am now ruling that such matters may be brought immediately to the Speaker\u2019s attention without raising them with the Minister first. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EFinally, I would remind Ministers that I endeavour to be courteous and helpful in my written correspondence with members and I would appreciate that approach being reciprocated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u002247d7ad51b0714b6aaa083f52908c6d24\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247d7ad51b0714b6aaa083f52908c6d24\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. I wonder if you could also look at the nature of some of the questions that are being lodged. As a result of a decision that you made\u2014I think it was earlier this year\u2014to allow more than two legs to a written question, the nature of some of the written questions has become more political, and in terms of the nature of the exchange that we have here in the House, I think there has generally been an approach that if a member asks a particularly political question, then they can expect a particularly political answer. Now that questions can be longer and can contain more quotations and statements, by definition they often are becoming more political in nature, and I think it would be somewhat unfair to say that a question can be more highly political but an answer to it could not be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002204a416a77c2746949ce1811bee6d0a89\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204a416a77c2746949ce1811bee6d0a89\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will be absolutely willing to look at that if members choose to bring them to me. The ruling that I attempted to make in the past was not to allow more quotations but to allow multiple legs in order to have Ministers answer one question rather than 200 or 300 containing very similar information. It was an attempt to make it easier for the House and to make the system more efficient, and I\u2019m quite happy, if Ministers feel that written questions are outside either the letter or the spirit, for them to bring them to me directly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022bfdff08762ad412fba1a8bed3e8ae73d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bfdff08762ad412fba1a8bed3e8ae73d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Just further clarifying what I was saying, Mr Speaker, I guess what I was asking is that where members who are receiving an answer raise with you the political nature of the answer, in assessing whether any further action is taken you\u2019ll consider the nature of question that has been asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00226e920f79e032443ba1f7be9f64ba13e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e920f79e032443ba1f7be9f64ba13e1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely, and I did on about half a dozen occasions in this case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227d17e11b73e840b2a6e82289e0d56103\u0022\u003EObituaries\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f507bd45d2584469a8caa2ed910fd42c\u0022\u003ESean Wainui\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022 data-id=\u00223621c2621fb4441ab2e377b04a103cc8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223621c2621fb4441ab2e377b04a103cc8\u0022\u003EDr ELIZABETH KEREKERE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to move a motion without notice or debate m\u014D he tohu aroha [as a sign of respect] for the passing of Sean Wainui.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8d28aece1b84f94a6a023f2082e0a62\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action? There is none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9f4769decf7441c9d21fd5af3785a09\u0022\u003EDr ELIZABETH KEREKERE\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That this House express its deep sadness at the tragic passing of Sean Wainui, n\u014D Ng\u0101i T\u016Bhoe, Te \u0100itanga a M\u0101haki, Ng\u0101riki Kaip\u016Btahi, r\u0101tou ko Ng\u0101ti Porou, aged just 25, recognise his contributions on the rugby field with the Bay of Plenty, the Chiefs, and the M\u0101ori All Blacks, as well as in Te Ao M\u0101ori and his wider community; that this House offer its condolences and aroha to the wh\u0101nau pani [bereaved family] at this time as wh\u0101nau travel back to Whatatutu where he will lay in his whare t\u012Bpuna, Mangatu Marae me Te Wainui Marae, and particularly send our awhi and manaaki to his wife, Paige, and their tamariki, Arahia and Kawariki.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EKi te hunga mate, koutou kua riro atu, koutou kua takahia nei i ng\u0101 tapuwae o ng\u0101 m\u0101tua t\u012Bpuna, e moe. Mauria mai ng\u0101 tini aitu\u0101, hei tangihia, hei maumaharatia. Haere ki te puna wairua, ki te puna roimata, ki te puna tangata. Haere, haere, haere atu r\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003E[To you who have passed. To you who are following in the footsteps of the ancestors, be at peace. Carry with you the many calamities that need to be mourned and remembered. Go to the spring of wellness and spirit, to the well of tears, and to the source of life. May you rest in peace.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d4628d49a8804e42a874c4d77f55d45e\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224829de2876964c4f8c6546fb69c220f9\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00228e9a271da2c243d99c1d5f86ea099dbd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e9a271da2c243d99c1d5f86ea099dbd\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No select committee reports have been presented. A petition has been delivered to the Clerk for presentation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u002253a6b461fd04457386b0470f2052337b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253a6b461fd04457386b0470f2052337b\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: Petition of Annalice Rayner requesting that the House of Representatives amend the Accident Compensation Act 2001 to include sensitive claim cover for \u201Cmental injury\u201D caused by image-based sexual abuse. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00224e4b75207b8347dbb85a3bb59a7fc771\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e4b75207b8347dbb85a3bb59a7fc771\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That petition stands referred to the Petitions Committee. Ministers have delivered papers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00223190114caab74f1aaf1e8f5319f6739a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223190114caab74f1aaf1e8f5319f6739a\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EAnnual reports for 2020-21:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Foreign Affairs and Trade\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EInland Revenue\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ECrown Law Office\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ETe Puni K\u014Dkiri\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EMinistry of Justice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EMinistry of Defence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EMinistry for Women\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EMinistry of Social Development, and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EMinistry of Housing and Urban Development\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Eannual report for 2020-21 of the Ministry for Primary Industries, incorporating the Minister\u2019s reports on non-departmental appropriations, and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Estatements of intent for 2021-25:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ECrown Law Office\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EMinistry of Defence, and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EMinistry for Women.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00222ad7338655fd43c480bf1d67306d89a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ad7338655fd43c480bf1d67306d89a2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those papers are published under the authority of the House. The Clerk has been informed of the introduction of a bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00220145f4d852a5464c80e1ee15339cdd63\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220145f4d852a5464c80e1ee15339cdd63\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: Pae Ora (Healthy Futures) Bill, introduction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd4586f5219c46248cb32d136f3925ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd4586f5219c46248cb32d136f3925ec\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That bill is set down for first reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002212ddd84151e54d418995f9336b02920d\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cf2ebdf65c1445a2a1c46f6922af2c9f\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022518018e895f7446f8aa127a3efd873e0\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u00224e6a6e6bf07d43be9991356483f31d4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e6a6e6bf07d43be9991356483f31d4f\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all of her Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8143a09fd9a48e7a15eb455c08ff27d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8143a09fd9a48e7a15eb455c08ff27d\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, including the work to keep the unemployment rate in New Zealand as low as possible. Unemployment for the June 2021 quarter was 4 percent, 0.6 percent lower than the March quarter. Of particular note is the unemployment rate of women, which has fallen from 5.8 percent in September 2020 to 4.3 percent last quarter. But there is still work to do. That\u2019s why we\u2019ve reinstated the Training Incentive Allowance, supporting 16,000 people to retrain, gain higher skills, and transition into new careers. Sole parents, disabled people, and carers are among those most affected by the economic impacts of COVID-19. They also face higher costs and barriers to education and training. Alongside the Flexi-wage, He Poutama Rangatahi, and Mana in Mahi, these are initiatives where we ensure that we leave no one behind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221278a0cd15e4cfb9acb4cc2ce85afbe\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Will she announce a concrete plan on Friday that gives certainty to Aucklanders that the lockdown will end before Christmas, or is she prepared to leave Aucklanders behind?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224864a3810f074c47aef6a6f909b44291\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: That is something I spoke to extensively yesterday in this House, in a press conference yesterday, and in media yesterday, and the member knows the answer is yes. We will be presenting greater detail around what a framework for protecting New Zealand in a highly vaccinated environment will look like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa623a07e346463aa650d8637e32436c\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Why is she making Aucklanders, who have been locked down for 64 days, wait until Friday for a stage-managed pronouncement on whether or not they\u2019ll be locked down for Christmas?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c48de6c1ad1c41c393362b134acf7b10\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Obviously, I reject some elements of that member\u2019s statement, but I also note that the member has released her version of a plan, which includes both targets but also a date of 1 December. So I think what that\u2019s acknowledging is that there\u2019s, obviously, some work to do to ensure that there is safety for all Aucklanders via vaccination, and maybe that is something that we can actually agree on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220658b25fce4b44a09a2c809a0ce94d51\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Is she saying, then, that she agrees with the National Party that we need to have a date of 1 December by which her Government needs to complete the vaccination programme that they promised to do this year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281307f834f7147dda83a6031083e532a\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: It would be difficult for me to know exactly what I would be agreeing with when, on 17 August, Dr Shane Reti said that they may need to go to 85, 90, or 95 percent; on 23 August, the Leader of the Opposition said a target of 70 to 75 percent; on 18 September, Chris Bishop said the first target should be 70 to 75 percent; and, actually, all on the same day of the 19th, Shane Reti said 90 to 95, Judith Collins said that they\u2019d give a date by the end of November, and Chris Bishop said 85 to 90. So I\u2019m not sure what I would be agreeing with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221996ab1d1dc542299749ae03be2c13bb\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if she\u2019s going to make up numbers like that, as she just did, perhaps she could answer\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a53b3993a6e40d387636a347d210970\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! The Leader of the Opposition knows what she said was out of order, and therefore she will withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022919d2c3ab1d54e40b010ccfe2570f686\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I withdraw and apologise. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234f31ef628cd429a90c5f73e97b18a36\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Further supplementary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3f7ad111cc24296b936905cf25a80ef\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. So will she then announce on Friday a milestone by which time all COVID lockdowns will end, or will she continue to quote figures and dates and get things wrong?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf01589a73594806bedde80b63524f85\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: To answer the second part of the question: no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd1ed8a076f54aacbafeafaa1326338f\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: So at what vaccination rate will lockdown restrictions be lifted under her Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221baff70d26404e1ebde754b318d54614\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Obviously, we\u2019ve already said that not only would we be speaking to the framework but also the triggers that we would be using on Friday. But I do note that the member has done both, which, again, I\u2019m not entirely clear on whether the member believes a highly vaccinated environment is required or is simply an ambition, given she has three targets but also a date. I\u2019m sure New Zealand would appreciate clarity on her opinion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022022e5d8064174015944e9742729b2931\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I asked for the Prime Minister\u2019s view, not her view of our document.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022329e20cad47e49a5a32fe9bd47e04275\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not quite sure that was the question. I was convinced that the Prime Minister addressed the question at the beginning; whether the rest of it was helpful, I\u2019m not sure. But we\u2019ll go on to the next supplementary now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4adf63eb84f49cd877da979610eecf7\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Well, does the Prime Minister believe that a framework will be greeted by Aucklanders with certainty, given that it\u2019s still just a framework that she\u2019s talking about for Friday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dee35b31134443feb707df8eb90c031b\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I think, obviously, it would be best that we have that engagement after Friday and then the member will be able to ask a question perhaps with some more specificity. But I think what we can all agree with is that in the past, of course, lockdown and restrictions and the tools that we had meant that we were making every decision based on case numbers and the nature of an outbreak, and that has shaped New Zealand\u2019s response to date. The ability to vaccinate and vaccinate broadly does give us more tools that enable us to build a framework to try and keep people safe but in a highly vaccinated environment. So that is what we\u2019ll be looking to share more details around on Friday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbb933be6e7440068937702343cb533a\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: On Friday, will it be necessary for the Prime Minister to fly down from Auckland a film crew to film her pronouncement or will she find sufficient people in Wellington who can do the job?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a50f0d386e64955857e79a656c00421\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not entirely sure what the member is referring to. If it is the really important event of the Vaxathon, I\u2019d have to say I think most New Zealanders thought that an event that brought about 130,000 people being vaccinated\u2014that that would be something she supports. The way in which the filming of it was undertaken is not something any of these members in this House was engaged with but all of us support initiatives to get people vaccinated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022beaa93a217af48598f9689ac838821f2\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Did it make a difference to vaccination rates whether the film crew was able to come through as essential workers from Auckland or whether there were people in Wellington who might have done the job?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ea227d3c8064490b1a5664c2e1c1b18\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not responsible for the staffing of Avalon Studios, but what we are responsible for is ensuring that as many people as possible are vaccinated. I thought, perhaps wrongly, that the Vaxathon was something that was broadly supported in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220011b0e9f4964358986011495dbdcb18\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Now that Auckland is in its third month of lockdown, does she regret spending so much of the COVID fund on things like a $500,000 grant to a book matchmaking website based in North America?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ecd1ff8466e4db9bbf154b38b60238a\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Obviously, decisions that are made around an innovation fund within the Ministry for Culture and Heritage is not something that I am personally determining. What I absolutely stand by is, unlike many other countries, we made a deliberate decision that because COVID-19 affects our artists and our creatives and those who rely on the gathering of people the most we specifically tested that the wage subsidy would be available to them. It has ensured the survival of our creative sector in a very difficult environment and we also, then, established a recovery package. The way that is administered sits with the Ministry for Culture and Heritage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223cb228c3c78845e7940f6f04ca8655d6\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022 data-id=\u0022c13458a3a1c94102a0406ae7c7defb59\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c13458a3a1c94102a0406ae7c7defb59\u0022\u003EANNA LORCK (Labour\u2014Tukituki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What reports has he seen on the New Zealand economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002218af8d94188140358278b3e299ad6a91\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218af8d94188140358278b3e299ad6a91\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E The Government\u2019s health-led approach to the COVID-19 pandemic and support for the economy has been reflected in the Crown financial accounts released last week. For the year to June 2021, the Crown accounts show the operating balance before gains and losses\u2014the OBEGAL\u2014was at a deficit of $4.6 billion. This was $10.6 billion better than had been forecast in the Budget in May. Net core Crown debt stood at 30 percent of GDP, $11.6 billion less than forecast and well below the average for advanced economies of 90 percent. In addition, the cost of servicing that debt remains very low by historic standards. With the Government\u2019s books in better shape than expected, it does give us more options to respond to the ongoing effects of the pandemic, but we cannot afford to be complacent. We are still facing elevated levels of debt and deficit for some years to come, and we will need to invest our resources carefully in response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022304ba0c532ba47b5b8b110fa29d16ace\u0022\u003EAnna Lorck\u003C/span\u003E: What is the impact of the economy on the country\u2019s tax take?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a0e45e9b2074a4dbb773c87302eeb8a\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The stronger than expected economic environment saw core Crown tax revenue at $98 billion for the year to June 2021, $12.9 billion higher than the previous year and $6.4 billion higher than forecast in the Budget. This was across all tax types. With the country being in lower alert levels for much of the year, the strong labour market and consumer confidence drove these tax revenue increases. The focus on saving lives and livelihoods that has been the hallmark of the Government\u2019s approach to COVID-19 has meant that the economy has bounced back better than almost anyone predicted. That strength has given us the fiscal headroom to support businesses and households when the Delta outbreak struck.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243c5acb7cdb0417589629d6a8e1d970c\u0022\u003EAnna Lorck\u003C/span\u003E: What constraints are there on the economy arising from the pandemic?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4a0cdd2ece24153bc300de33b836800\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: While the economy\u2019s performance has exceeded the expectations of commentators and forecasters, the Delta outbreak shows that the recovery is uneven for some sectors and regions. Globally, the pandemic continues to disrupt supply chains, which is, in turn, affecting the New Zealand economy. It is appropriate that the Government continues to take a balanced approach as we work through the uncertainty, investing heavily to support wellbeing, our transition to a low-carbon economy and to improved productivity, while all the while carefully managing resources with an eye to the long-term sustainability of the economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ab9f2e2ef4d9441e86efd5c208cbee25\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd1612f54d4940aeaaa2fc7f72411f8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd1612f54d4940aeaaa2fc7f72411f8b\u0022\u003EDr SHANE RETI (Deputy Leader\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What is his response to Capital and Coast intensive care specialist Dr Paul Young, who has said, \u201CI am afraid that your assertion that the number of staffed ICU beds has increased from 234 to 340 in the past 15 months is false\u201D and that \u201CIf you are receiving advice that we have 340 staffed ICU beds you are receiving bad advice\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022603cc0488fd0441584a2dc5312f110ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022603cc0488fd0441584a2dc5312f110ab\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E My response to Dr Paul Young is a matter of public record. At 12.06 p.m. on 14 October 2021, I wrote \u201Cthat is not what I said. In addition to 243 beds we call \u2018ICU beds\u2019, extra beds can be made available for ICU-level care staffed by surge trained nurses under supervision. DHBs advise they can lift the number to 320 to 340. [The] real issue is vaccination keeps people out of ICU.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ebe2e36c9c246308285d3b664bf302d\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: What does he say to the Australian and New Zealand Intensive Care Society, who reported there are, in fact, only 186 standing ICU beds in New Zealand that are staffed and not the numbers he is claiming?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221feaefc74b1f4450b19597feccd1f9fe\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: What I say not so much to that organisation but to that member is to read the full report that was provided by that organisation that said that there are up to 314 beds available for ICU and high-dependency unit (HDU) level care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e993f2295fb412aae25b4035940fa06\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Does he understand that no one believes him when he says that new standing ICU beds have been added\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3e37f1b6eb7435facf09c3aa9d84f92\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! The member cannot use that expression in relation to something that a Minister has just said in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214830cc95db142369e3678960e9dfe74\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Can he confirm there are only four standing ICU beds at Tai R\u0101whiti; and, given its occupancy rate, how many community cases per day will it take for the standing ICU beds to be overwhelmed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022349b6c2850ee4e62b7528d3766761a7f\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: I get a daily report on the available ICU and HDU capacity for all hospitals. The reality is that it varies by a small margin each day, but the latest report I\u2019ve had for Tai R\u0101whiti is that there are six ICU and HDU beds available and, like most hospitals, not all are fully utilised at the time that that report of total capacity was given to me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d722a396ad194bd3b6d29f418b15e4ea\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: When he said lockdowns protect ICU beds, is his failure to build enough ICU beds the reason Auckland is still in level 3 lockdown; and is he then also responsible for the 1,000 postponed elective surgeries per week that he has described in answers to written questions due to the lockdown?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ab2d56b36e64ba999974beacb871ab4\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: The member is conflating a number of completely different things. The early part of the latest lockdown was a level 4 lockdown, and the member will well know that, typically, what happens is that hospitals then cease most planned care and put those procedures off. In Auckland in particular, because they\u2019ve gone from level 4 and then down to level 3, there has been continued disruption of planned care and, indeed, some other procedures. Most DHBs have resumed planned care and other procedures. The Auckland hospitals have been able to refer some patients to other DHBs to get those procedures done, but the reality about pandemics and lockdowns is that they are disruptive to surgical procedures, and that has happened on this occasion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002211d69c19c9784051a0061a0094e4a44e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Energy and Resources\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00220daf51ec0277472ea3a78a4ac768eea9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220daf51ec0277472ea3a78a4ac768eea9\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Energy and Resources: Fakaalofa lahi atu, Mr Speaker. What action is the Government taking to reduce fossil fuel use by large industrial users?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022536f9849046a45589c56ca143613fae9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022536f9849046a45589c56ca143613fae9\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Recently, I announced the second round of recipients of co-funding from the Government Investment in Decarbonising Industry Fund. The fund is a partnership between Government and business to accelerate the decarbonisation of industrial process heat while creating jobs. Process heat makes up around a third of New Zealand\u2019s overall energy use, and over half of processed heat is fossil fuelled, mainly by gas and coal. By working closely with large industrial users to transition away from fossil fuels we\u2019re continuing to decarbonise our economy as part of our transition to a low emissions future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c127ea826794c31b0647ee63ff43ed5\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: What will be the impact of this round of industrial decarbonisation funding?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d795ed485e947119563cf1fc36abc3d\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: For New Zealand to achieve its ambitious climate goals we need to tackle the issue of emissions from our large industrial users. In the latest round, the Government is partnering with industry on more than 20 projects that will deliver an annual saving of 142,591 tonnes of greenhouse gas emissions, or 2.8 million tonnes over their lifetime. Across both funding rounds, the 39 projects funded will deliver savings of 6.6 million tonnes of greenhouse gas emissions. This equates to 14 to 18 percent of the gross long-lived emissions reductions required from the Climate Commission\u2019s first carbon budget for 2022 to 2025. This investment is another example of the Government\u2019s commitment to tackling climate change. This is about futureproofing our planet and our economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227167140500d54408a639eea2724bf616\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: What are some examples of decarbonisation initiatives funded under the partnership?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283d81435da484d6fb01246ff679e9d20\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re working with McCain Foods in Timaru to convert their existing coal boilers to biomass fuel, which will reduce their carbon emissions by nearly 34,000 tonnes every year; and Meadow Mushrooms in Canterbury, who are working towards a goal of carbon-zero emissions by 2025. The project at Meadow Mushrooms will replace their diesel boiler. An electrode boiler will be assembled in New Zealand with many domestically-sourced components. This project will halve their carbon emissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcff8de29ce94c539999c70573ad57dc\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware of any reports that spot electricity prices are so high New Zealand Steel today is using diesel generators to run its potlines; and, whether she\u2019s aware of that or not, what does she think that says about the true state of decarbonisation in industrial processes in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022606b697ec64b4c3b8dd6ef54cd3aef59\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I am aware of reports of unusually high spot prices in our wholesale electricity market. What I think that says about what the future needs to be is that it needs to be decarbonised, because, of course, those high prices have been driven by increased coal use and increased gas use over this period of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022646361f23a0440d9a5097fda846dfe08\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Health (M\u0101ori Health)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022 data-id=\u002243c75a7894d442c4a606d75c186f6409\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243c75a7894d442c4a606d75c186f6409\u0022\u003EDr ELIZABETH KEREKERE (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Health (M\u0101ori Health): E whakapono ana ia he rahi rawa ng\u0101 mahi a te k\u0101wanatanga hei akiaki i te werohanga o te iwi M\u0101ori ki te kano \u0101rai mate, in\u0101 hoki ki ng\u0101 rohe p\u0113nei i Te Tair\u0101whiti me Te Tai Tokerau?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003E[Does he believe the Government is doing enough to lift M\u0101ori vaccination rates, particularly in rural areas including Tair\u0101whiti and Te Tai Tokerau?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d43a8e8065944250935b3bc231f00234\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d43a8e8065944250935b3bc231f00234\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Associate Minister of Health (M\u0101ori Health)): \u003C/span\u003ET\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. Ki te p\u0101tai\u2014direct to the member\u2019s question, the answer is yes, and in particular I share with the member some feedback while I was on the road, recently, from Geoff Milner, the chief executive of the Ng\u0101ti Hine Health Trust, the largest M\u0101ori health provider providing the vaccine in Northland. He says, \u201Cthat he has never had such great support from central government, DHBs, GPs, Hauora, and pharmacy for our wh\u0101nau on the ground.\u201D I also quote Mr Reweti Ropiha, chief executive of Turanga Health, who said, \u201CWhile we\u2019ve had mobile services in Tair\u0101whiti for rural outreach for some time, following the Minister\u2019s visit to Tair\u0101whiti, where he listened to our needs and followed up with support, we will now be able to reach more deeply into our rural communities.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248a007a64d9b4756b6c7440e0c9f7b23\u0022\u003EDr Elizabeth Kerekere\u003C/span\u003E: Kia ora. He aha ng\u0101 kaupapa kua whakamaheretia motuhaketia m\u0101 te M\u0101ori kei te taiwhenua, \u0101, ka p\u0113hea t\u0101 ng\u0101 kaupapa nei akiaki i ng\u0101 r\u014Dp\u016B M\u0101ori ki te \u0101rahi i te whakautu ki te mate nei? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003E[What outreach is planned specifically for rural M\u0101ori, and how will this empower M\u0101ori organisations to lead the response?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ac66c0b71074003bea81b2a521d5459\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe. Ki te p\u0101tai a te mema, he maha ng\u0101 rautaki me ng\u0101 mahere kua whakaritehia nei e m\u0101tou o te K\u0101wanatanga. Tuatahi ko te \u0101huatanga ki ng\u0101 p\u016Btea. Tata ki te kotahi rau miriona t\u0101ra ka tukuna atu m\u014D t\u0113nei kaupapa. Tuarua ka w\u0101tea nei e m\u0101tou i \u0113tahi o ng\u0101 huarahi ka \u0101hei ng\u0101 ratonga hauora M\u0101ori ki te whakatutuki i ng\u0101 mahi tuku i te kano \u0101rai mate. An\u0101, tuatoru ko te whakapakari ake i ng\u0101 ratonga hauora M\u0101ori kia \u0101hei r\u0101tou te tuku i t\u0113nei rongo\u0101 ki te Iwi M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E[To the member\u2019s question, there are many strategies and plans that we, the Government, have prepared. Firstly, the aspects related to finance. Nearly $100 million has been released for this initiative. Secondly, we have made several avenues available to M\u0101ori health services to successfully administer the vaccine. And thirdly, to increase the capability of the M\u0101ori health services so that they are able to deliver this medication to the M\u0101ori people.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a6a255990f84a7592a29362fa900d1a\u0022\u003EDr Elizabeth Kerekere\u003C/span\u003E: Ka tautokona e te K\u0101wanatanga t\u0113tahi rautaki e arahina ana e te M\u0101ori ki te whakautu i te horokuk\u016Btanga ki te kano \u0101rai mate p\u0113nei i t\u0101 Te R\u014Dp\u016B Whakakaupapa Urut\u0101 i marohi ai? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003E[Will the Government support a M\u0101ori-led approach to addressing vaccine hesitancy as recommended by Te R\u014Dp\u016B Whakakaupapa Urut\u0101?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2d39a90f0f14d9eb1f64d25f5b7eb53\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: \u0100e. I te t\u012Bmatanga o te whakaritenga o te mahere, i hui tahi m\u0101tou me ng\u0101 tohunga o Te Ao M\u0101ori m\u014D t\u0113nei take, ko \u0113tahi kei runga i te r\u014Dp\u016B kua k\u014Drero mai n\u0101 te mema. N\u014D reira kua whakarongo m\u0101tou ki w\u0101 r\u0101tou k\u014Drero, kua hui an\u014D m\u0101tou ki ng\u0101 ratonga hauora M\u0101ori kia whakarongo ki ng\u0101 nawe me ng\u0101 k\u014Drero kei runga i te papa. N\u0101 kon\u0101 m\u0101tou i whakarite ai i t\u014D t\u0101tou mahere kia tuku ai i te kano \u0101rai mate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E[Yes. At the beginning of the development of the plan, we met with the experts of the M\u0101ori community regarding this issue\u2014some of them are on the group that the member spoke of. So we have listened to their feedback. We\u2019ve also met with M\u0101ori health service providers to listen to their objections and the points made on the floor. That is why we developed our plan to deliver the vaccine.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d0487af1821403a8d8e30cb24170598\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: E taea ana e te K\u0101wanatanga te oati kei te whai r\u0101tou i te ara kia iti rawa ng\u0101 p\u0101nga m\u0101uiuitanga tae r\u0101 an\u014D ki te w\u0101 e w\u0101tea ana te kano \u0101rai mate, otir\u0101 kia tutuki r\u0101 an\u014D te \u0101raitanga tiketike o te tamariki M\u0101ori?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E[Can the Government ensure that they are following the right paths to keep cases as low as possible until vaccinations are available for children and high coverage is achieved for tamariki M\u0101ori?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd808c8dfe4d4aadb89a652af612f463\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: I t\u0113nei w\u0101 tonu kia tirohia e t\u0101tou katoa ki te \u0101huatanga ki w\u0101 t\u0101tou tamariki mokopuna, ar\u0101, ki ng\u0101 rangatahi. I t\u0113nei w\u0101 tonu, kua t\u012Bmata ai t\u0113tahi mahere m\u0101 ng\u0101 rangatahi an\u014D t\u0113r\u0101 k\u014Drero e tukuna atu ki w\u0101 t\u0101tau rangatahi kia whakaratarata mai w\u0101 t\u0101tau rangatahi ki t\u0113nei kano \u0101rai mate. Engari, me kaua t\u0101tou e tukuna atu i ng\u0101 h\u0113ki katoa ki te p\u0101kete kotahi. N\u014D reira he maha ng\u0101 mahere, heoi an\u014D ko t\u0101ku e mea atu ana koia r\u0101 t\u0113tahi. Mehemea e hiahia ana te mema i \u0113tahi atu, a t\u0113n\u0101, horekau he raru ki ahau nei kia tukuna atu i \u0113tahi atu mahere ki a ia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E[At this time, let us look at our children and youth. At this time, we have begun some initiatives for our youth. We have begun campaigning to our youth to encourage our youth to be vaccinated. But we cannot put all of our eggs in one basket. So there are many initiatives; I am merely saying that that is one. However, if the member would like, of course, it would be no problem for me to supply these initiatives to him.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c98f18e73ac64ff8b70da7a99e05dd76\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: He aha ng\u0101 k\u014Drero ki te wh\u0101nau o Te Moana-nui-a-Kiwa? He aha te ara e whai ana r\u0101tou kia h\u012Bkina ng\u0101 nama ki roto i \u0113r\u0101 wh\u0101nau m\u014D te whiwhi i te kano \u0101rai mate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E[What are the details surrounding our Pasifika wh\u0101nau and what are the measures they are taking to increase vaccination numbers within those families?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213df1781f7044e98a12aff974c4c37f8\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: He p\u0101tai pai t\u0113n\u0101. Kua whakapau werawera te Minita, a Minita Sio ki te tautoko ake i ng\u0101 t\u016B wh\u0101inga o ng\u0101 h\u0101hi, he m\u014Dhio n\u014D t\u0101tou katoa i te kaha o ng\u0101 h\u0101hi ki te wh\u0101toro atu ki ng\u0101 iwi moutere. Kua k\u014Drero atu m\u0101tou katoa ki ng\u0101 mea pou kei roto i te hapori m\u014D te hunga n\u014D Te Moana-nui-a-Kiwa kua whakaritehia an\u014D e m\u0101tou i \u0113tahi o ng\u0101 ratonga hauora m\u014D te hunga n\u014D ng\u0101 moutere ki te tuku i t\u0113nei kano \u0101rai mate. Engari me kaua t\u0101tou e p\u014Dh\u0113h\u0113 kua oti noa ng\u0101 mahi. He nui tonu ng\u0101 mahi kei mua i a t\u0101tou, M\u0101ori m\u0101, Ng\u0101i Pasifika m\u0101, ki te hiki i ng\u0101 nama, ng\u0101 tatauranga ka kitea nei e t\u0101tou. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E[That is a good question. Minister Sio has been working hard to support the different goals of the church, because as we are aware, the church has significant influence within the Pasifika community. We have had discussions with the pillars within the community with respect to those from the Pacific community and have established health systems options for Pasifika to be vaccinated. But we should not be fooled that our job finishes here. There is still plenty of work to be done for M\u0101ori and for Pasifika to lift the numbers and statistics that we currently see.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002241028a386adf4822843728d750e5dbda\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022 data-id=\u002230802c87852e490b877d37fc787041c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002230802c87852e490b877d37fc787041c3\u0022\u003EANGELA ROBERTS (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What decisions has the Government made about onsite learning at schools in level 3 regions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022e556390600444719a8a4ff85cc2e5d24\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e556390600444719a8a4ff85cc2e5d24\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Today, I announced that on-site learning at schools in level 3 regions will start from next Tuesday for years 11 to 13 students, which will allow them to prepare for end of year exams and complete NCEA assessments. The issue of school reopening is a complex one and it does require difficult trade-offs between improving education and increasing potential health risks for children and young people, many of whom cannot yet be vaccinated. Learners in this particular age group though, the senior secondary school age group, are able to be vaccinated and they\u2019ll be required to wear masks, and the staff and volunteers working on-site will need a negative COVID-19 test before they\u2019re able to attend. Further consideration is being given to years 1 to 10 at Cabinet next Tuesday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3250f776c704cfd8b9e01ff6463effb\u0022\u003EAngela Roberts\u003C/span\u003E: What refinements, if any, have been made to public health requirements to support the return of years 11 to 13 students?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a0a0e6f5fdf487da25cd09cb0a24a1f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: A number of further refinements have been made as we continue to refine the public health measures for schools and early learning services. The following additional measures will be in place: face coverings will be required at school and on school transport for everyone over the age of 12; time outdoors for students and staff will be maximised and the rooms will be aired during breaks; exercise and singing will only take place outdoors; group meetings indoors, including assemblies and staff meetings, will be avoided; and, of course, staff need to return a negative test before they return to work on site. Staff who are not fully vaccinated will need to be tested weekly and it will be required for staff to be fully vaccinated by 1 January 2022. I\u2019d also add that children and young people at higher risk of severe illness from COVID-19 should stay home unless they\u2019re fully vaccinated; face coverings are mandatory for the staff and learners in years 9 to 13; and records must be kept for contact tracing purposes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a90e31559e64d32885a0e3c9fa05dbb\u0022\u003EAngela Roberts\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Government doing to ensure students in alert level 3 areas get a fair chance at NCEA?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222efac50d4f9544038a1b5153ec1b8c77\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: While classroom teaching and learning have been disrupted by COVID-19, I know that students have been continuing to work hard while they\u2019re learning from home. They deserve to have the opportunity to demonstrate what they\u2019ve learnt during that time. NCEA and scholarship exams will be proceeding, but physical distancing will be maximised within the space that\u2019s available with a minimum of 1.5 metres between desks. In Auckland, Waikato, and Northland, where they\u2019ve experienced further disruption in term 4 of this year, when students are normally preparing for exams, the New Zealand Qualifications Authority has confirmed that these students will be eligible for an unexpected event grade that will help to recognise the work that they have done. While students will be expected to attend exams where possible, the long-established unexpected event grade process means that they will receive the better of either their exam grade or the unexpected event grade.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225044f6ed52d24ea5bdabd963f9694bb6\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8ab5e52e6d0445da74fa9692c1256e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8ab5e52e6d0445da74fa9692c1256e2\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Will he adopt any of the measures proposed today by National in our Back in Business plan to quickly help the economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00220ef9b757cf404e96ba6321f4295b8cf5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ef9b757cf404e96ba6321f4295b8cf5\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for the opportunity to comment on his proposals. I am by nature an optimistic and positive person, and so, of course, I will look at the specific proposals he has put forward. But, sadly, his overall plan fails a basic economic equation. He thinks that it is possible to reduce revenue, increase spending, and slash debt levels all at the same time. Simply put, the plan does not add up. It would require an austerity approach that would see the slashing of critical public services. It would undermine all the hard work that New Zealanders have done in fighting COVID-19, in return for an untargeted tax cut of $4 a week. Beyond that, the plan has some basic facts wrong, including writing women out of employment statistics completely by only giving the unemployment number for men, and giving the wrong unemployment number for M\u0101ori unemployment. COVID-19 has been and is tough going for many businesses and people within the community and the Government will continue to support them and look for practical and achievable ways of enhancing this, including through the enhanced business support package we will release on Friday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226541889d0ad447709f437d09ee618d07\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Will he take up National\u2019s plan to reduce the corporate tax rate for small businesses to 17.5 percent to reward them for sticking it through these tough times and to enable them to retain more cash?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d003f9df62284447ae04c359d2b24923\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, to begin with, obviously there\u2019s one issue the member might want to think about with that particular element of his plan, which is obviously that if businesses are going to be paying corporate tax, they\u2019re going to be making a profit and, therefore, he may be missing quite a few of the businesses that he actually thinks he wants to target. Secondly, it\u2019s a bit hard to deal with individual parts of the plan when, for example, in order to reach the levels of debt that are proposed in the plan, $80 billion would have to come off the Government\u2019s Budget over the forecast period. That would require significant cuts to core public services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022313b019453524972bcce9689f049cc13\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Will he extend the loss carry-back scheme for the next two years so that the businesses that are currently struggling through 64 days of lockdown can keep more of their cash through this difficult period?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e25dcaefb82b473dbf3db6a2fe197a85\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: As the member is aware, the loss carry-back scheme was brought in by the Government last year and it was not continued with because the uptake of it was significantly lower than expected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edbaf1dae27546748bbe404b6fcb5b4b\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Will he allow businesses to instantly write off up to $150,000 on new plant and equipment to encourage investment and to ensure New Zealand lifts its productivity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ca077f1090b44108ba7f923bb485c6e\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: We continue to look for ways to support businesses to invest particularly in the technology that will support them to be more productive. But taking any individual part of the member\u2019s plan cannot get away from the fact that it simply does not add up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022979a56f792ad4b8d8902bfac5da384bd\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Will he commit to increasing the wage subsidy to cover at least the minimum wage now that businesses have been trapped in a lockdown for 64 days?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022098654f3ea1b483ca0521e1b504a88ef\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: This proposal from the National Party highlights the problem with the overall plan. On one hand, we have Mr Woodhouse standing up in the House saying that we must cut back on expenditure, and, on the other hand, we have Mr Bayly saying \u201CNo, spend more. Spend billions of dollars more.\u201D And then Mr Woodhouse pipes up again and says \u201CYou know what? We need net debt to go down to 25 percent.\u201D They haven\u2019t got it right. It\u2019s inconsistent. It doesn\u2019t add up. It\u2019s not a plan. And, sadly, it\u2019s a reminder of the 2020 election. Bring back Paul Goldsmith!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002294c488813fa0432bb9576cfe92a32b93\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014COVID-19 Response\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u002270d2b59bb27b4866ab8080abbf06ec32\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270d2b59bb27b4866ab8080abbf06ec32\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for COVID-19 Response: Does he stand by the Prime Minister\u2019s statement in relation to community cases of COVID-19 and Kiwis returning to New Zealand, \u201CSo it\u2019s just about looking at those two different groups and making sure we\u2019re consistent between the two\u201D; if so, how many community cases are currently home isolating?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f80339bab6da413fada4b09fc1be7a85\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f80339bab6da413fada4b09fc1be7a85\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister for COVID-19 Response):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I do stand by the Prime Minister\u2019s full statement, including the following aspects which have been missed by the member. \u201CWe are in a transition period \u2026 we\u2019re piloting and we\u2019re doing that both for positive community cases where it is appropriate, and we\u2019re looking to do that for travellers where it is appropriate, and we\u2019re also looking at things like shortened managed isolation and quarantine (MIQ).\u201D In response to the second part of the member\u2019s question, I\u2019ve been advised by the Ministry of Health that, as at 9 a.m. this morning, there are currently 86 cases isolating at home following an assessment undertaken as to whether or not that person would be best placed in managed isolation or to be continued to be cared for in their home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223543767fd0f04bd18cf615c993d57191\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: If there are 86 people with a positive test for COVID currently able to isolate at home, why can\u2019t this Government let tens of thousands of Kiwis trapped overseas have a system where they can home-isolate now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c94dbb9e649d43d1b677490bc96c686d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, many of those tens of thousands of Kiwis won\u2019t be just travelling into Auckland, they\u2019d be wanting to travel to other parts of New Zealand as well, which at the moment we\u2019re not allowing home isolation in for COVID-positive cases, because there aren\u2019t any COVID-positive cases in those communities. But, as the Prime Minister has indicated, we are in a transition period. The border settings will be changing, and that will include looking at the duration of MIQ and it will see greater use of home isolation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea4706cf158f4c9c8d0b489029952336\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister know what conditions must be met in order that people coming to New Zealand can skip MIQ\u2014if they\u2019re able to get it\u2014and isolate at home; and if he does know, can he just tell people now what those conditions are?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022469e7b0f20cd4004854717beb3e5d00b\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: We continue to work through changes at the border. Specific decisions around the potential reduction in MIQ requirement and a potential increase in isolation at home have not yet been taken. We are currently allowing isolation at home for up to 150 business travellers. That process is under way. We will gain valuable lessons from that about how to make sure that process is as smooth as possible and that we lower the risks of that approach as much as possible. But, as I\u2019ve indicated, and as the Prime Minister has indicated, I think we will see a greater proportion of people coming into the country isolating at home. One of the things that we do have to recognise, though, is at the moment there is a difference between Auckland and the rest of the country. It won\u2019t stay that way for ever, but that is the situation at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdd7c8cea01e492e85aff60df88ed5c8\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister please just tell the House what has to happen so that people trapped overseas can isolate at home the way he just admitted 86 people with COVID are doing in Auckland right now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223872cfa697ae40deb481328878c8afdf\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I can give it a go but I\u2019m not sure I\u2019ll manage the same degree of theatrics as the member. As I\u2019ve indicated, the Government is looking at expanding home isolation when it is safe to do so, including considering shortened MIQ stays\u2014and potentially a mixture of both of them. Vaccination will play a role. One of the things that we have already announced is a requirement for all those coming in to New Zealand who are not New Zealand citizens to be fully vaccinated from 1 November. That was important to signal that early, because that will certainly be a requirement for home isolation for people coming into the country. We wanted to give people plenty of notice so that they can be ready for that. Things will be changing at the border as a result of the overall change in the risk profile that we\u2019re seeing across the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ee07808c89034612aff87ce20a71281c\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Immigration\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022 data-id=\u0022d1fe7360608f44f7a53081da480b49c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d1fe7360608f44f7a53081da480b49c8\u0022\u003EIBRAHIM OMER (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Immigration: What recent announcements has the Government made about providing certainty to working holiday and seasonal visa holders and employers for summer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u0022e76e639188b94d26a1440e3a9b78e655\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e76e639188b94d26a1440e3a9b78e655\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E Fakaalofa lahi atu, Mr Speaker. The Government has recently announced we will extend working holiday visas and supplementary seasonal employment (SSE) work visa for six months to provide more certainty to employers and visa holders over the coming summer period. This offers the likes of the hort and vit sector the certainty they\u2019ve been asking for going into this summer\u2019s harvest season. This will also allow other employers, across a range of industries, to make use of the onshore workers while our border restrictions are in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb850745d8d74f13bd98eb1561beadba\u0022\u003EIbrahim Omer\u003C/span\u003E: Who will benefit from this announcement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3d6a553d91b47649b0085f436a2ea10\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: More than 8,500 people on working holiday visas and SSE work visas that are due to expire between late December of this year and late June of next year will benefit from the six-month extension. They will also continue to have open work rights, allowing them to work in any sector, to help meet labour market demands where they exist. Also, their employers will benefit from this, and also anyone working in that sector downstream\u2014the likes of other workers and customers\u2014as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c22c94573b74258b95571fbdadf2a62\u0022\u003EIbrahim Omer\u003C/span\u003E: What other measures has the Government announced to support seasonal workers and their employers with the upcoming summer harvest season?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a2d19209b1247519444a874abfd31f0\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: The Government stands ready to support our primary sector\u2019s labour needs over the harvest season. I\u2019ve continued to meet with the horticulture and viticulture sector leadership on a fortnightly basis throughout the pandemic, and we have made progress on key measures to support their industries through COVID so far. We have created exceptions to our closed border for Recognised Seasonal Employer (RSE) workers, allowing the hort and viticulture sectors with 2,012 workers entering for the last summer harvest season\u2014and increased the duration of essential skills visas and streamlined the application progress to provide more certainty to employers and visa holders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c8588cc1c3d49618b34f04949046c44\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: Would including working holiday visa, RSE, and SSE visa holders, who have stuck with us through the pandemic, in the one-off residency visa provide certainty and contribute to ending exploitation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa4beac35f7b4b0a9a202b2760d24794\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: The visa holders that the member mentions were only ever going to be here for short stays, and the Government has prioritised skilled, scarce, and settled visa holders for the one-off residency. But I\u2019d also note to the member the impact that opening the resident visa up to the likes of RSE workers from the Pacific might have on their communities back in the Pacific if they were not to go home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e15a7a6623404731a49b0e4d39317ec9\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014COVID-19 Response\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00224b40eefdd0ce41d4a3e26ae1a40de7a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b40eefdd0ce41d4a3e26ae1a40de7a5\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for COVID-19 Response: How many fully vaccinated people, if any, have tested positive for COVID-19 in managed isolation and quarantine since 23 August 2021, and on what days in managed isolation and quarantine did they test positive?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u002245175b9ff607472a9e41e350d53dbf9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245175b9ff607472a9e41e350d53dbf9b\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister for COVID-19 Response):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m advised that 19 fully vaccinated people have tested positive for COVID-19 who arrived from overseas into managed isolation and quarantine (MIQ) between 24 August and 12 October, which is the latest date of data that I\u2019ve got available for vaccination status. Three of these individuals tested positive on day zero, 10 on day three, four on day six, one on day eight, and one on day nine. For the sake of completeness, in addition to that, approximately 180 individuals have entered MIQ from the community and subsequently returned a positive test whilst in MIQ since 23 August.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bac9f1be5284549ba33a314edfcff19\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: With just two people who are fully vaccinated testing positive for COVID-19 in MIQ at day eight or beyond out of the over 6,000, I think, people who have been through MIQ since 23 August, does that not indicate that shorter MIQ periods are now appropriate for fully vaccinated travellers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226cd84963e4f4b31809a773e88981232\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: It does indicate that the Government should be considering that, and that is exactly what we are doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022231920ab86f14972a15a3e3536a29dce\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Is it correct that the managed isolation and quarantine system wanted to collect vaccination status data earlier than 23 August but the Ministry of Health did not agree?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022403aaaaa513549e9ae8c2306a106d8cb\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: That issue has certainly not been raised with me up until now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e653dc46b4ef498b8f3ee0e3c3ce5ff4\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Well, why did the Government only start collecting the vaccination status of people in MIQ from 23 August onwards, when it\u2019s pretty clear from what the Minister has just said that the data that we\u2019ve collected since that date has been extremely useful in framing up policy parameters?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265d0005434264d70bd0ad97470b396dc\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I think there are probably a variety of reasons. We made the decision to start collecting data when we got to the point where we wanted to assess what difference vaccination was making on the rate of positive cases that we were having coming into the country, and that included introducing the additional testing requirement. So we introduced the additional testing requirement so that we could do exactly what the member has just asked us to do, which is chart out exactly where in that sort of 14-day cycle we were picking up the majority of cases, because one of the issues is at day zero, at day three, and then at day 12, it\u2019s quite a big gap between the day three and the day 12, and so we wanted to see of those day 12s, could some of those be picked up earlier so that we can actually make those kind of informed decisions, both about the role vaccination might play, but also about the role a shortened MIQ might play in our future border settings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c78fa7165af1458a8dca8f34c5f6b65e\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Will fully vaccinated travellers with negative pre-departure tests be able to skip MIQ before Christmas this year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022125f246f5fc24dc388dbe94823a7698b\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: We haven\u2019t made decisions on that at this point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227f95a4a6c3ed41b0bbf71d369a89c2d1\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u00222c2a9dbe695e4edcb442606397b59aba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c2a9dbe695e4edcb442606397b59aba\u0022\u003EBROOKE VAN VELDEN (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Health: Does she stand by her statement, \u201CWe must ensure maternity services and care better meet the needs of women and wh\u0101nau, and achieve equitable outcomes for women, p\u0113pi and wh\u0101nau\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u00223318d59c42304a3e9c0370359c5d0122\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223318d59c42304a3e9c0370359c5d0122\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. I can assure you that safe, equitable, and sustainable maternity services are a priority for this Government, and I view this work as a key part of the health portfolio. A wide body of evidence tells us that the first thousand days from conception are particularly crucial for the health, development, and wellbeing of a child. Healthy pregnancy is an action in the Government\u2019s programme of action that supports the Child and Youth Wellbeing Strategy. In July 2020, the Government announced funding that brought the total new investment in maternity services to $242 million over four years. This includes the following programmes of work: a $180 million maternity package comprised of $85 million for additional modules under the primary maternity services notice; $60 million allocated to support community maternity initiatives arising from any accepted recommendations of the health and disability system review; $35 million for the maternity action plan; $57 million over four years for cost and volume pressures in the notice; and $5.4 million to cover extra costs incurred by midwives related to COVID-19, including a $2,500 payment for lead maternity carers, midwives, and funding towards locum arrangements for COVID-19 - related leave. A further $8.056 million was also approved in the Budget for the cost and volume pressures in the notice, including $5 million for the Lead Maternity Care business contribution payment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d21105402474793ab1f5fd4dab36949\u0022\u003EBrooke van Velden\u003C/span\u003E: Does she believe it is important that women who give birth have the support they need from their partner, family, and chosen support person?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c33241a8bf24be8ae069867716f55a6\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, when it is safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cc4788c7518405885ffb5a961d48114\u0022\u003EBrooke van Velden\u003C/span\u003E: Does she believe that restricting the ability for women who have given birth in hospitals at alert level 4 to have support persons with them ensures maternity care meets the needs of women and their wh\u0101nau?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5bec2d1234a47a3b3721794460dcd23\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for that question. I think it\u2019s a very important question and one which we need to work through carefully. A year ago, before I became an MP, I was a doctor in a tertiary hospital, an infectious diseases specialist having to make the decisions around granting exemptions to hospital visitor policies. I think the systems we have in place have to ensure that the women using the maternity unit can safely give birth with minimised threat of COVID-19, but also where an assessment is done on the specific circumstances, there are possibilities created where it is safe for people to be with their family at that time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8a72e06fe4247eaaed652fe209de747\u0022\u003EBrooke van Velden\u003C/span\u003E: Is she concerned about reports that women are choosing to leave hospital early, against medical advice, because their support person must leave the hospital within an hour of them giving birth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022526101eb61984d4cb44a043609af60da\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: Those reports have not been raised with me but, as I said earlier, I would hope that an assessment of safety is made in every individual case and where safe and possible within the resources available, an enabling approach is taken to having family present.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b8ac0d7b96b4569ba21bc4bc37f3c13\u0022\u003EBrooke van Velden\u003C/span\u003E: Has she advocated for allowances to be made for pregnant women or their partners to be provided emergency managed isolation and quarantine (MIQ) spaces to return to New Zealand, and, if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d09f5e821ad942f994d80a63651b2b47\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: I frequently advocate on behalf of women in my role as a Cabinet Minister. In these situations I take into account women\u2019s health needs to have support during the important time of giving birth, but, also, that the conditions in which women give birth have to be safe, and that is a function of our MIQ system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278cf9181ed63487da6b4d9ed3cfd2011\u0022\u003EBrooke van Velden\u003C/span\u003E: Does she think it is acceptable that pregnant New Zealand women are being forced to take the Government to court to get the maternity care and support that they need?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3455edc8e414a5e876736c75096c484\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: I am not aware of a proceeding for maternity care that is before the court. If the member is referring to a proceeding relating to the MIQ system, then that is a different matter that is before the courts at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022936141dbc3594045ba1ca14eeb9c5e47\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Housing (M\u0101ori Housing)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2c3033712fe4fb9a59b76bb94c6d4f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2c3033712fe4fb9a59b76bb94c6d4f4\u0022\u003ET\u0100MATI COFFEY (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Housing (M\u0101ori Housing): What recent announcements has he made about supporting M\u0101ori housing? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u002239300acdcf754e2b9af03d672e6be7f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239300acdcf754e2b9af03d672e6be7f6\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Associate Minister of Housing (M\u0101ori Housing)):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. On 28 September 2021, we launched MAIHI Ka Ora\u2014The National M\u0101ori Housing Strategy, a strategy I am proud to be a part of. I say \u201Cpart of\u201D because this is a strategy that has come about through a true partnership with M\u0101ori: a document that articulates M\u0101ori aspirations, the role of the Crown, and the outcomes we will work together to achieve. Also, in Gisborne last week, together with my colleagues the Minister of Housing and the Minister for M\u0101ori Development, we launched Whai K\u0101inga, Whai Oranga fund, which is a combination of investment funds from Budget 2021, and this investment is a total of $730 million for housing supply and infrastructure for M\u0101ori wh\u0101nau. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddf34f04eac94b4fa3ec70407a74acb8\u0022\u003ET\u0101mati Coffey\u003C/span\u003E: How will the national M\u0101ori strategy and Whai K\u0101inga, Whai Oranga fund strengthen housing aspirations for M\u0101ori? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6a5d6d318374c989323ed17b8248466\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: This Government is committed to the vision that all wh\u0101nau have safe, healthy, affordable homes with secure tenure, across the M\u0101ori housing continuum. Our National M\u0101ori Housing Strategy was described by M\u0101ori architectural designer and writer Jade Kake as a \u201Cgame changer\u201D. The purpose of the strategy is to provide strategic direction to current and future policy process and investment decisions that impact M\u0101ori housing. One of the priorities identified in the strategy is the need to grow and invest in M\u0101ori housing supply. Earlier in the year, we secured the largest investment Whai K\u0101inga, Whai Oranga ever made towards M\u0101ori housing. Whai K\u0101inga, Whai Oranga will include immediate housing supply and repairs but, more importantly, it will deliver support for M\u0101ori-led regional groups to scale up their housing developments over the next five to 10 years. In the development of the strategy, iwi and M\u0101ori have articulated clearly that we need to commit towards M\u0101ori-led local solutions. Whai K\u0101inga helps create that space to allow M\u0101ori housing solutions to thrive and, together, the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development and Te Puni K\u014Dkiri will move at pace to invest in an existing pipeline of M\u0101ori-led developments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022411388352491410e87950f38a26af6b9\u0022\u003ET\u0101mati Coffey\u003C/span\u003E: How can M\u0101ori and iwi groups access Whai K\u0101inga, Whai Oranga investment? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e4ca17d66014def83b412551cd3b5f9\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a very good question. Today, the project pathway of the Whai K\u0101inga, Whai Oranga fund has gone live and is now open, and it can be found on the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development website. The immediate focus is investments through the project pathway, with agencies working with iwi stakeholders to design a new programme approach to deliver M\u0101ori housing. Wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, iwi, and M\u0101ori organisations with housing aspirations can now apply for Whai K\u0101inga, Whai Oranga investment housing supply, repairs, papa k\u0101inga, and capability. Whai K\u0101inga, Whai Oranga has two pathways for allocating investment: the project pathway, which will be open today and is nationwide; the programme pathway will open early next year, and this pathway focuses on delivery through regional partners. The initial focus is on regions such as the Tai Tokerau, Tai R\u0101whiti, Heretaunga, Taranaki, and the central North Island, including Bay of Plenty and the Rotorua. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dd2a8c75c09a4a308e5badf012580728\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c8fd228251c24c77a3cce3b50d6de4c0\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00227d07f957acc24229887bb15179b7d057\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d07f957acc24229887bb15179b7d057\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister for COVID-19 Response):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of miscellaneous business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI want to begin today with an acknowledgment of everybody in Auckland. It is tough going in Auckland at the moment. Aucklanders continue to do the hard yards on behalf of the whole country in fighting COVID-19. They are making a significant contribution to the overall public health and wellbeing of all New Zealanders. I acknowledge it\u2019s not easygoing. I acknowledge that the period of restrictions that they have experienced has been difficult. That has manifested itself in a wide number of ways, and I think I want to, on behalf of the whole country, express our gratitude for what they have been doing in order to keep COVID-19 contained within Auckland at the moment, and I do want to thank them for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also like to acknowledge that it\u2019s World Cleaners Day, and I want to say a very warm thankyou to cleaners up and down the country for the work that they\u2019re doing. In fact, cleaners have been at the forefront of our COVID-19 response and we should acknowledge that. We should acknowledge that they often work while we sleep, making sure that they are keeping us all safe, and they do that day in, day out, right the way through the year, even when we\u2019re not dealing with COVID-19. So a big thankyou to our cleaners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EA big thankyou to everybody who\u2019s working in the health system at the moment. I particularly want to pick out one group, the group that we saw a lot of on Saturday, and that is our vaccinating workforce, up and down the country, who have been doing everything they can to ensure that New Zealanders are provided with good, robust information so that they can make an informed decision to be vaccinated. There is absolutely no question that the pathway forward from here for New Zealand relies on a good, high rate of vaccination. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EFor those who currently sit on the fence or who are wavering, my message to them is this: stop delaying. Go and talk to someone who knows what they\u2019re talking about. Don\u2019t listen to what your friends might be saying or what someone that you\u2019ve read on Facebook might be saying. Go and talk to your doctor. Talk to a nurse. Ring Healthline. Get some trusted advice and make an informed decision about being vaccinated, because we are all in this together, and the higher the rate of vaccination that we get, the greater the possibilities for all of us. Vaccination is incredibly important now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EWe are already seeing the benefits of vaccination in Auckland. Some of the modelling is already showing the impact of a high rate of vaccination in Auckland and the effect that that\u2019s having on the potential number of cases that we could be seeing on a daily basis if we did not have that. That is because Aucklanders have come forward. They currently sit first-equal with the Wellington region for the highest rates of vaccination in the country, and it\u2019s having an effect. It is helping to suppress the number of cases that we are seeing in Auckland. [Interruption] I have to tell the member that the southern region\u2019s got a bit of catching up to do, and I think Canterbury might have even overtaken them. So they\u2019ve got a little bit of work to do down there in the deep South. But it is good to see vaccination rates across the country coming up, because, ultimately, that is a big part of our future\u2014making sure that we have a highly vaccinated population throughout the country. And vaccination rates in every part of the country matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI want to again extend a message to the rest of New Zealand that at the moment, COVID-19 cases are contained within Auckland but it will not stay that way for ever. There will come a time when there won\u2019t be a ring around Auckland any more, and I think those in Auckland want that to be sooner rather than later. That does mean that the rest of the country need to be prepared, and the best thing that they can do to be prepared is to get vaccinated. COVID-19 will find unvaccinated people. That has been the international experience of COVID-19, and it has been particularly so with Delta, which spreads faster and infects people much, much more quickly than previous variants of the virus. So there is an absolute degree of urgency here around vaccination. We need people to embrace the spirit of Super Saturday to keep that momentum going.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ESo my message to those who have either had one dose or have been fully vaccinated is you\u2019ve still got a role to play here in convincing those who haven\u2019t been vaccinated to come forward and be vaccinated. So when you\u2019re coming forward for your second dose, or when people are coming forward for their second dose, if they could bring one unvaccinated person with them, then we will be one of the most vaccinated countries in the world very quickly. So that could happen, and we need New Zealanders to do that. We need to get those vaccination rates as high as we possibly can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EWe have this opportunity. We\u2019re seeing New Zealand\u2019s vaccination rates continuing to grow day by day. I acknowledge the hard work of those on the front lines who are making that happen. I acknowledge the work of the people who are getting out there and making sure that people have got good information to make informed decisions. Vaccination is so huge for New Zealand\u2019s future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022bcf31b9d574741f898174dc5d47de665\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bcf31b9d574741f898174dc5d47de665\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I want to join with the Minister, actually, in acknowledging the people of Auckland and in supporting the vaccine message. I\u2019m not sure that the people of Auckland would so fondly acknowledge the Government and their ham-fisted response to the COVID outbreak.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve been reflecting. In my 25 years as a rugby referee, I often refereed games where teams were ahead and then fell behind in the last 10 or 12 minutes of the game, to run around in a frantic frenzy to try and play catch-up. I would reflect that if they had that level of intensity through the 80 minutes of the game, maybe they wouldn\u2019t have found themselves in that situation. I think that\u2019s analogous to this Government, because they were cruising early in the second half of the COVID game. They thought they were best in class. They thought they didn\u2019t need to worry about getting vaccine rates up sooner. In fact, they went from front of the queue to \u201COh, other countries need it more.\u201D, and then they found themselves behind on the scoreboard and they were scrambling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EWell, they were scrambling without a plan: no plan to open up, no plan to get our primary and intermediate kids back to school, no plan to ramp up our health system, no plan to roll out rapid antigen testing, no plan to use technology to track and trace, no plan to use electronic vaccine monitoring, and certainly no plan to recover this economy. Well, National has a plan, and I was proud to be part of the team that launched Back in Business this morning, National\u2019s plan to save lives and livelihoods and unleash our economy. That plan increases support for workers and businesses, and it reduces spending by Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThe Minister of Finance, in question time today, just couldn\u2019t believe that was possible. Well, those rumours about how bad he was at maths at King\u2019s High School in Dunedin are clearly true, because one of the things you do firstly in order to reduce spending is to reduce the impact of a lockdown. Get business back to work sooner so they can rely on their own merits, not on Government support. The second thing is to stop spending money on dumb stuff and on things that are completely unrelated to COVID. This Government has used COVID as the cloak for profligate spending on things that have tenuous or no links to the outbreak. We\u2019ve gone through them before in this House: three waters, cameras on fishing boats, wallaby control, money for RNZ to compensate for lost revenue that they hadn\u2019t actually lost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EYesterday, thanks to Newsroom, we had this classic revelation that funding for the arts out of COVID is even disliked by the arts sector, shocked by half a million dollars to fund a match-making book site that\u2019s \u201Cheaded by an American wedding celebrant with close to zero knowledge of New Zealand literature [who] has been given a massive $500,000 grant from the Ministry for Culture and Heritage to \u2018help Aotearoa audiences access books\u2019.\u201D I\u2019d like to quote some of the people in that article, but I\u2019m afraid that they use language that I can\u2019t use in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ESo the simple arithmetic is this: stop spending other people\u2019s money on dumb stuff, because this Government thinks it knows how to spend Kiwis\u2019 money better than Kiwis do. Let\u2019s give them the chance to get back into business, to open up properly, to get dining out in the open, to use the vouchers that we would give them, to spend the tax-break money that we would give them, and to get back to normal. Yes, vaccine rates are important. Vaccine rates are our ticket out of here, and if the Government hadn\u2019t mucked around all winter, we would be in a much better place. But I\u2019m still confident and National is still confident that we can do that in order that we can open up before Christmas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI should say that Mr Robertson, in criticising our opening up plan that was launched three weeks ago, said \u201COh, well, there\u2019s National. They\u2019re going to give people COVID for Christmas.\u201D Well, under this Government, they didn\u2019t need to wait for Christmas to get COVID; the Government gave it to them during the October school holidays. There is a better way, and it involves much more energy. We\u2019re now in the last 10 minutes of the game, and, thanks to the Government\u2019s complacency, we are behind on the scoreboard. I\u2019m confident we can get back to business. We can open business up. We can get them to stand on their own feet. We can save jobs. We can save livelihoods. We can improve their mental health. They just need a Government that cares, and that isn\u2019t this one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u00229eb434914d7f4f16b96ab919b881ebd3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229eb434914d7f4f16b96ab919b881ebd3\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Associate Minister of Health (M\u0101ori Health)):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. And first can I just support the condolences to Sean Wainui and his family at this point in time\u2014a truly tragic event and our thoughts and prayers are with them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EBack to the world of the living, and I want to support my colleague the Hon Chris Hipkins in thanking T\u0101maki-makau-rau for doing the heavy lifting. They have been in lockdown for a very long time. I meet with them daily to make sure that we can continue to support their efforts, not just to care for them but also to support their efforts to drive up vaccination rates amongst M\u0101ori, Pacific communities, and right across T\u0101maki-makau-rau. The numbers there are strong, but we need them to continue to rise, which is why I used the term very carefully yesterday in the press conference: wh\u0101nau ma, COVID-19 is on your doorstep, and we need you to wake up, we need you to seek the right information, the correct information from proper sources to make sure that you can make an informed decision to take the vaccine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EOn the vaccine: Super Saturday, well, what an awesome day. I went out to Takap\u016Bw\u0101hia and saw vaccines and rongo\u0101 M\u0101ori, hangi, r\u0113wena bread, and the community all in the same place. What was just as important as the vaccine was the community spirit is alive and well, despite the pandemic trying to break it, despite some of the Opposition humbug trying to break it, the community spirit is super-strong. I just want to give a couple of numbers. Of course, just over 21,000 M\u0101ori received the vaccine on Super Saturday. Just about half of those are first dose, which is super-exciting. I want to congratulate my colleague the Hon Meka Whaitiri. Waipukurau: 17 percent of the M\u0101ori population there vaccinated on Super Saturday. Great work as a collective of the DHB, M\u0101ori health providers, local GPs, and local pharmacies, as well as the council\u2014that\u2019s how we do it. That\u2019s how we roll and that\u2019s how we\u2019ll continue to get our numbers up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI also want to acknowledge Te Tai Tokerau, where I come from. I miss that place, and I know they\u2019ve been doing it a bit tough. They\u2019ve been in lockdown too with T\u0101maki-makau-rau over the past few weeks, but despite that, on Super Saturday, their people came out. In fact, of the top 10 vaccination sites in this country, Tai Tokerau takes four of them, and that\u2019s absolutely awesome. I\u2019d like to say it was after my visit there, but, none the less, I know that they all worked together to make sure that they can reach our M\u0101ori communities. I\u2019m really, really thankful for the work that they do, from vaccinators to kai\u0101whina, to those giving out the hangi, to those aunties and uncles and M\u0101ori wardens who are ushering our wh\u0101nau into vaccination centres and into health clinics around this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI also want to thank our kuia and kaum\u0101tua. Their vaccination rates amongst our people are the highest, and that\u2019s really important. Why? Because all of us look up to our elders like that. I am asking our kaum\u0101tua and kuia now to have those conversations with their wh\u0101nau, to make sure that they can continue to protect their wh\u0101nau, their hap\u016B, and their iwi as we move forward into this pandemic. And I\u2019m really excited that as we continue to grow our M\u0101ori vaccination rates, we can start engaging again as a community, like we saw on Saturday. The team of 5 million\u2014well, guess what, baby! It was back, and it was back in fine form, and in particular for our M\u0101ori communities and our Pacific communities, and I\u2019m super-excited about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EToday, we heard from the National Party about M\u0101ori vaccination rates. When asked for a plan, they couldn\u2019t come up with one. And given their deputy leader is a doctor, I suspect he\u2019s now dressing in personal protective equipment to go around the country to try and vaccinate every M\u0101ori in this country. The National Party has not had a plan for M\u0101ori vaccination rates. In fact, I recall when we announced the M\u0101ori vaccination plan in March, they made it clear that it was separatist, that we couldn\u2019t have that, that it was one country, that we were a team of 5 million, and now all of a sudden they want to jump on the old M\u0101ori h\u014Diho. Well, I can tell you, if they\u2019re looking for a target, the target that they\u2019ve been trying to find for so long now\u2014and they\u2019ve flip-flopped between different members\u2014is probably on their leader\u2019s back. And I say that because despite the rantings and ravings from a number of their colleagues, from a number of their caucus, it was quite clear that they lack leadership. They\u2019ve lacked leadership from the start of the pandemic, and they continue to lack leadership today. What we heard from Mr Woodhouse was nothing but business, business, business. What we\u2019re saying on this side of the House is it is about wh\u0101nau, it is about hauora, and it is about our communities growing back stronger and resilient into the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EFinally, in the last eight seconds, in a moment of harikoa, I want to say happy birthday to my tu\u0101kana Whatitiri Te Wake in the press gallery\u2014happy birthday, cuz. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u00229687371097da42dd944a1d716fe424a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229687371097da42dd944a1d716fe424a8\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (National\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, thank you very much. Today, National released the document Back in Business \u2013 National\u2019s plan to save livelihoods and unleash our economy. To the last speaker, Peeni Henare, who was in the newspaper yesterday and today blaming M\u0101ori for not being vaccinated, actually our economy has people of every walk of life in New Zealand, who have done everything that his Government has asked, who have huge amounts of debt, who are losing their homes and their businesses\u2014and he wants to be a bit political. I\u2019ll let you what, you should have vaccinated more people, Mr Peeni Henare, rather than eating all of those h\u0101ng\u012B yourself, because they were there to get others vaccinated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EOn 21 March last year, we went into our first level 2 initially. Since then, New Zealand has been under level 2, 3, or 4 restrictions and lockdowns for 226 days\u2014for 226 days, Kiwis have been locked away, have not been able to come out of their homes, have not been able to go to work, have not been able to run their businesses. Auckland has been in level 3 and 4 for 64 days, and when the Prime Minister finally gets around to it this Friday\u2014if it is even her that will do it\u2014to come out and talk about what the future holds for Auckland, it will be 66 days and counting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EAuckland, our largest city, the largest part of the economy: 220 days in restrictions since last year. It is no wonder that last week, when the Government announced further restrictions for the Waikato, because there were more cases, the Prime Minister didn\u2019t bother to turn up and talk to Kiwis from the 1 o\u2019clock platform; she went to Murupara to tell people to get vaccinated and to cook sausages. Well, I\u2019ll tell you, to the people in Auckland, who are struggling because of being locked away, to every small business in the country that\u2019s done what they\u2019ve asked, who have got debt, who have had to sell their homes and borrow more just to survive, to the thousands of people in the South Island, who haven\u2019t had a case of COVID for more than a year and they\u2019re still under lockdown, that\u2019s what they want from their Government: someone who can cook a good sausage sizzle in Murupara!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EYou see, today\u2019s plan from National is a plan. The Government said it was the year of vaccination. We didn\u2019t hear them at the beginning of the year telling M\u0101ori to get vaccinated; we heard them saying that we don\u2019t have enough vaccines because others around the world are more important and they\u2019re dying. Well, here we are today, businesses failing, New Zealanders struggling, and the Government still makes excuses. Today, National announced a plan that will support businesses, small businesses, tourists, and Kiwis who own and run those businesses and who have done what the Government asks. The first is a reduction for two years in the tax rate for small businesses to 17.5 percent\u2014the same as the M\u0101ori incorporated tax rates\u2014when businesses get back to being able to trade properly because the vaccination rate is up, because the Government has finally got around to doing that, and when the restrictions aren\u2019t there, when the visitors from Auckland can travel again, and when people from overseas can safely come back. Kiwis will work hard. We think they deserve to keep more of their cash to pay off those debts that are vested in their businesses. What the finance Minister said was, oh no, he wants that, because he knows how to spend it better. We\u2019re backing businesses here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve said we would extend the cashback system. A tourist business three years ago was making more money than most other businesses. Tourism was worth $41 billion to the economy, 400,000 people employed, many of them locked away in their homes right now because of the Government\u2019s inaction. If a business today has a loss, a small business, they can carry that loss back and get cash from profits over the last four years, if they desperately need, in their business. We have announced the wage subsidy should continue to be available everywhere in New Zealand under level 2. In Auckland, the Government has said that won\u2019t be the case, just when they need it the most. We\u2019ve said that we would increase the tax bracket for our lowest earners so that they have a choice to go and decide what to spend their money on, and I would recommend to them to spend it on whatever they like, particularly local businesses, because every time they spend at a local business, they save a local job. The Government is not spending in that local business; they are taking your money, they are keeping it, they are borrowing from the future and spending it on things like\u2014still\u2014a cycle bridge over the Waitemat\u0101 Harbour that they\u2019ve ruled out but are still paying for, to plan for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve announced a \u201Cdine and discover\u201D package: $100 per person in New Zealand over the age of 18 who has been vaccinated to spend in restaurants and in pubs and accommodation and tourism to pump money into those businesses, give them a shot in the arm, so that they are still there after we get back to normal. There is an insurance scheme for the events industry. The Government was asked to do one of these. They said no. The events industry is $20 million out of pocket. We have their back, as we have the back of every single small business in New Zealand. Small businesses are mum and dad Kiwis\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00228b9617bf0669402bbdf2737a42ed8f22\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b9617bf0669402bbdf2737a42ed8f22\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c953b004c39f4c9d889e0d098ed93943\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c953b004c39f4c9d889e0d098ed93943\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Through vaccinations we will secure New Zealand greater freedoms. We have rolled out the most effective vaccine to New Zealand, a vaccine that will prevent hospitalisations and deaths, a vaccine that has an exceptional safety profile, and due to the efforts of this Government and the team of 5 million, we are on track for very high rates of vaccination across the country. Announced yesterday was the plan that we will be able to vaccinate people with immune compromise with a third dose to make sure that those most vulnerable members of our community remain protected by vaccination because we have found in studies that sometimes they do not seroconvert in their first one or two doses. In addition, Minister Hipkins mentioned today that we anticipate the application from Pfizer for booster doses to go through our regulatory process next week so that we can ensure that this protection is sustained. Momentum is up in our vaccination campaign due to the efforts of this Government and the team of 5 million. On Super Saturday, we vaccinated over 2 percent of our population\u2014a world-topping statistic. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EBut what I want to mention was the absolute stars of Super Saturday\u2014our community providers. They go to parts of our community where no one else can. They reach the people the health system has for too long struggled to reach. I spent Super Saturday with my colleague Barbara Edmonds in Mana. We went to Maraeroa Marae. It was not like your standard vaccination clinic. In the wharenui they were practising rongo\u0101, there was a h\u0101ng\u012B outside. In the whare kai, the M\u0101ori Women\u2019s Welfare League dished out advice and good cheer. In Cannons Creek, there was the atmosphere of the Creekfest down in \u201CThe Cage\u201D, which is what they call the basketball court. Pacific health providers enjoyed music and dance and vaccinated the community. We had fun. We got to see the director-general\u2019s dance moves. And while it was couched in the shtick of telethon, what the vaxathon achieved was it mobilised the community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EIn particular, up and down the country, it mobilised the power of the aunties, and the aunties were out in force, waving flags in Auckland, waving people into the vaccination centre, making sure everyone felt that they fitted in and felt comfortable. In my own family, my mother, a retired teacher, got on the phone and called 60 former students to get vaccinated. Once again, we have reignited the power of the team of 5 million to look out for one another. Our hauora providers, our Pacific providers, community organisations\u2014they were the stars of Super Saturday. Their success is an inspiration. It is them that we should look to for the solutions to the problems our health system faces in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EWe have a way to go to make sure that everyone in New Zealand is protected, and it is so important to remember that in this pandemic, our success will be determined by reaching everyone. There will be no room in the hospital if there are pockets of people who are inadequately vaccinated. So by reaching everyone, that is how we secure access to health resources that will make sure that we continue to have a functioning health system that we value whether we ourselves are vaccinated or not. So I want to thank all the members of this House from both sides who participated in the Super Saturday event and all the community providers who brought their magic to making it a remarkable event and one that protected so many members of our community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7f3a04f5f0c47ec8b1d81f90ab658f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7f3a04f5f0c47ec8b1d81f90ab658f1\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. Well, clean water is also vital to human health, and I\u2019d like to talk about the Government\u2019s three waters proposals. So the Green Party strongly supports the Government\u2019s commitment to improving the delivery of three waters services across the country. We recognise that good services for drinking water, for waste water, and for stormwater are provided in some areas, but not consistently around Aotearoa. We recognise that there are issues around affordability and there are infrastructure gaps which require significant investment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWe strongly supported improving the standards of drinking-water supply and waste-water treatment. We know that we need to prevent leakage from the drinking-water supply network, but also note that the volume that agriculture consumes for irrigation, our dairy farms use the equivalent of what 60 million consumers would use.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe Greens supported the new Water Services Act, which establishes the new regulatory regime overseen by Taumata Arowai to ensure that all New Zealanders have access to clean, healthy drinking water and the commitments in that legislation to supplying safe, healthy drinking water. We recognise that that legislation would see more investment in three waters services, particularly drinking water, and a much stronger regulatory and enforcement regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EBut we do have some concerns over the proposals to transfer service delivery infrastructure and all those functions and responsibilities to these super-regional entities by July 2024. One of the key risks is around stormwater in urban areas, and if that becomes disconnected from land-use planning, subdivision, and land-use development in new housing, because it is that development that strongly influences stormwater, the pattern of use, and the areas of hard surfaces\u2014whether they be roofs or roads\u2014and councils are increasingly recognising that how they deal with stormwater has potentially significant co-benefits for the community in providing areas for recreation and habitat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EIn South-West Christchurch in Halswell, the Christchurch City Council has put a number of stormwater retention basins, which before they were even functioning properly people were walking around. They\u2019ve really helped to smooth flood flows and prevent flooding in areas of Christchurch, like Heathcote, where that was traditionally a problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EAnother concern is the whole scale, pace, and timing of the change in three waters, which is occurring before we have seen major progress with the review of local government. Because three waters functions are a major part of councils\u2019 functions, and the transfer of those to these four entities will have a major impact on the functioning of councils. But one of the key issues is the whole concern around ownership, accountability, and governance mechanisms. So we\u2019ve got a very complicated, multi-layered approach to governance that is proposed, with quite a limited ability for local communities and their councils to influence or direct the new super-regional entities. There\u2019s no direct link to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWe certainly support stronger mana whenua involvement, but the notion of having a regional representative group which appoints a selection panel which then appoints a competency-based board is too disconnected from councils and communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019ve also got a major concern around the Government proposing that it be mandatory. It\u2019s been proposed as a voluntary initiative, but Cabinet has provided the mandatory option as a fall-back position, and despite repeated questions to the Minister in the House, there has been a failure to rule out that this could be mandatory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe Government really needs to engage with councils and the concerns and alternative governance and accountability proposals that they have put forward in the eight weeks to 1 October. It\u2019s not just about refining what Government has proposed, but taking on board those concerns so that we get a real partnership between central and local government. That requires properly assessing those alternative service delivery and governance options.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWe suggest that there could be a much stronger and closer look at the council-controlled organisation model, as has been used in Watercare, which is delivering services efficiently with a competency-based board, and has a much more direct council stake in ownership.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe assumption is that the changes will deliver 45 percent or more efficiencies compared to the status quo. We acknowledge that that argument was used with the move to Auckland as a unitary authority, but we\u2019ve yet to see robust data showing that those efficiencies were achieved, and we think they can often be overstated, so we encourage the Government to engage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022 data-id=\u002218fec34ae0a549afa801b3b72bb31935\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218fec34ae0a549afa801b3b72bb31935\u0022\u003EHon MEKA WHAITIRI (Minister of Customs):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai o te whare, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. Otir\u0101, ng\u0101 mema katoa o te whare nei, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E[Mr Speaker, greetings, and to all members in the House, greetings to you all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EI too want to add my sincere condolences as expressed by my whanaunga Dr Elizabeth Kerekere to the Sean Wainui wh\u0101nau of Whatat\u016Bt\u016B, Te Aitanga-a-M\u0101haki. A very sad passing and I too want to add my acknowledgment to him and his wh\u0101nau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003ESuper Saturday\u2014130,000 vaccinations across the country; 21,700 M\u0101ori of which half and half were 50:50. This was a huge achievement and I too want to add my appreciation to all our health professionals, our M\u0101ori providers, our Hauora providers, our DHB staff for a mammoth effort. But we know this is only the beginning; we have much more work to do. And I thought it is important that we celebrate everyone\u2019s effort across the country. I myself was on the ground in Te Tai R\u0101whiti. I want to acknowledge Turanga Health. I want to acknowledge Ng\u0101ti Porou Hauora and, of course, Hauora Tair\u0101whiti, and the DHB, who ran clinics in and through the rohe of Te Tai R\u0101whiti.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EBut what I wanted to touch on is acknowledging Super Saturday but also acknowledging the work prior to Super Saturday, and obviously the work that we need post - Super Saturday if we\u2019re going to keep our M\u0101ori vaccination rates growing. Prior to lockdown, prior to the August lockdown, I visited all my clinics throughout Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti, and I\u2019ve got a big electorate from Wainui\u014Dmata right up into the East Coast. I visited those clinics to ensure that I understood how our clinics were set up, how the vaccinators were resourced, how the people were coming in, and how they were awhi-ed and what experience they were having in those clinics, and to speak to the clinicians themselves around some of the challenges. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EEvery day since lockdown, I zoomed with my four electoral offices, where we examined the daily rates of vaccination across my four DHBs: Tair\u0101whiti, Hawke\u2019s Bay, Wairarapa, and of course the Hutt Valley DHB, which is part of Capital and Coast. Every day, and to this day, we continue to do that, because it is so critical as the member for Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti, with the high number of M\u0101ori that we\u2019ve got across my electorate, that I\u2019m informed as a local MP as to the challenges facing them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EI also met with every four of my DHBs before Super Saturday to ensure that they were really clear that I was there to lend a hand, not to take over but to ensure that a health response on the ground across my electorate was so critically important to lifting M\u0101ori vaccination rates. And every DHB chair and every chief executive engaged openly and were open to suggestions. My point to all of them was they needed to work with their M\u0101ori community. It needed to be a M\u0101ori-led response across my electorate, and I want to say they did take that on board and they continue to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EBut not only that, we had the Prime Minister come into my electorate. Just when you\u2019re trying to focus on getting rates, in comes the Prime Minister. There\u2019s nothing like drawing the attention to the fact that we needed to lift M\u0101ori vaccination rates than having the PM in your electorate. So we had her at Wainui\u014Dmata Marae where she engaged with K\u014Dkiri Marae Services and Teresea and the team who are doing a stellar job out there. She then came to Flaxmere at T\u014Dtara Health. She met with our M\u0101ori Hauoras at te Taiwhenua o Heretaunga. She went up to Wairoa and saw firsthand and engaged with the rangatahi about some of their concerns that they had around vaccination, and she openly answered the questions that they posed to her. It was then on to Gisborne to meet with the Hauoras in Gisborne, and then, of course, up the East Coast where she engaged with people on the ground. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EFor a Prime Minister who is running this country and leading us through this pandemic, I saw a side of the Prime Minister that was on the ground, talking with people, but also engaging people with vaccination hesitation. I saw that where she not only heard the concerns but also addressed in a very subtle way, with those people who may have turned up that weren\u2019t contemplating being vaccinated\u2014and the Prime Minister took them aside and had a word and that led to their vaccination. Who else in this House can say that they have done that? Have they found people who are hesitant? Have they walked into the clinics? Have they stood by them while they were phobic of needles and then just held their hands? That\u2019s what we\u2019ve got in this Prime Minister: not only leading the country but getting down amongst all our clinics and our patients, particularly our M\u0101ori vulnerable and convincing them to get vaccinated. I\u2019m proud to be part of this Government, committed to raising M\u0101ori vaccination rates. We have more work to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u00221c1744662ead4887bc9c336716302537\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c1744662ead4887bc9c336716302537\u0022\u003EBARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Fakaalofa lahi atu, Mr Speaker. Thank you very much for the call. Three hundred and sixty-seven days ago, a number of us in this House were elected as new MPs, some on the list and some as electorate MPs. I\u2019d like to acknowledge right across the House those who are new MPs. There are many things you learn in your first year as an MP. You learn what\u2019s a good speech and what\u2019s not a good speech. You learn what are good questions to ask and what are not good questions to ask. But one of the very key lessons that I learnt very quickly, and it is something that I know a lot of us in this House hold true to our heart, is that question: He aha te mea nui o te ao? He tangata, he tangata, he tangata. What is the most important thing in the world? It is people, it is people, it is people. On Super Saturday we saw our people come together for one cause: to raise vaccination rates. And we saw it right across the motu with 130,000 people who were vaccinated on that day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThe Capital and Coast District Health Board, which covers my electorate of Mana, they worked together with the Hutt Valley District Health Board. They had quite a unique perspective when it has come to vaccinations, right from the very start. They went straight from the community. They went to the Pacific Island churches and said, \u201CCan you host a vaccination event in your church?\u201D In July, we held EFKS church in Waihemo Street, Porirua East, in Waitangirua. This Super Saturday we saw events at Maraeroa Marae, Takap\u016Bw\u0101hia Marae. We saw them in Cannons Creek. We saw the Pasifika youth event in Cannons Creek. We had over 13,500 doses in our DHB alone. So I\u2019d like to take this opportunity to acknowledge the Capital and Coast District Health Board team who have been leading this response: that\u2019s Rachael Haggerty, Tagaloa Junior Ulu, and Chris Mitchell. For the way that they have reached out to our communities, the Capital and Coast District Health Board and Hutt Valley District Health Board have some of the highest Pacific and M\u0101ori vaccination rates in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to also acknowledge our health providers on that particular day, and I\u2019m going to list them, because it\u2019s not very often you get to give that credibility to these health providers on the ground in Parliament: that\u2019s T\u016B Ora and Ora Toa, our main primary health organisations; Maraeroa Marae, Porirua Union \u0026amp; Community Health Service, Pacific Health Plus, Mana Pharmacy, Mana Medical, Plimmerton Medical, Linden Surgery, Life Pharmacy in North City, and Coastlands in K\u0101piti Coast, Team Medical, the K\u0101piti community vaccination centre, Whakarongotai Marae. We also had the Institute of Environmental Science and Research in Kenepuru Drive in Porirua East who was doing a lot of the waste-water testing across the motu. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EBut the great thing about this was that Super Saturday saw the best in business as well. We had a number of businesses support our efforts in Mana, because, unfortunately, in the Wellington region, Mana has some of the lowest rates in some pockets in our electorate. So we saw the likes of Vodafone New Zealand, Uber Eats, Google, Capital GR, Pak \u2019N Save Porirua, New World, Cus Uniforms \u0026amp; Sportswear, and the New Zealand M\u0101ori Tourism Board. We even had the Pacific Island diplomatic corps come out, and what was interesting about them is I put the challenge to them at the opening ceremony of the Pasifika youth event, which was by youth and for youth. I put the challenge out to the corps saying, \u201CI see you\u2019ve got flat shoes on. Come door knock with me and my team.\u201D So I acknowledge Papali\u2019i Tommy Scanlan, who is the high commissioner from Samoa. He and his wife beat the streets with myself, with Minister Verrall, with Minister Faafoi, with our mayor, with a number of our councillors, and with a number of volunteers to knock on doors through Cannons Creek and Waitangirua to ask people the key question: what support do you need to be vaccinated? A number of them even needed transport or they needed in-home vaccinations, which we are organising with our health providers. So we thank you all for that work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EWe also thank the 6,039 Pasifika people throughout the country who were vaccinated on that day. It\u2019s not a competition but I must say the Samoans, there were about 3,642 of you that came out, so m\u0101lo fa\u2018afetai lava for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EI just want to finish with a small contribution from a family who met the Prime Minister on Saturday. The father of the Risati family from Porirua East said, \u201COn Saturday we\u2019re part of a vast group of first vaccinators back home in Porirua, Cannons Creek. Obviously people have their reasons on why or why not to get vaccinated against COVID19 but as a family we had to do it, not for the incentives or what people call bribes but for the sheer fact that we have an immune-compromised child in Lachy, whose immune system isn\u2019t strong enough to fight off anything that is out there in our community. The basic cold or flu-like symptoms that we take for granted can be fatal for Lachs. This was mainly for him to help him be protected because we cannot afford for him to get sick again.\u201D COVID is here on our doorsteps. Let\u2019s respond.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00228a2a192fd0d84bb2bc96cfb0cc7f7527\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a2a192fd0d84bb2bc96cfb0cc7f7527\u0022\u003ERACHEL BROOKING (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s great to be able to talk about our super Super Saturday. I live in the beautiful \u014Ctepoti and spend a lot of time around the south of Te Waipounamu. But, like many members before me, including the member across the floor who is also a list MP based in Dunedin, the Hon Michael Woodhouse, I want to acknowledge the effort that Auckland is going to and how they are doing that for the entire country. I want to acknowledge how hard it is, particularly if you\u2019ve got small children, to be in lockdown. So thank you to Auckland for doing that for the rest of us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EIn terms of Super Saturday down south, I thought I\u2019d start with talking about Queenstown and W\u0101naka, part of the Queenstown Lakes District Council (QLDC) rohe. Now Queenstown, they\u2019re all about the vaccine in Queenstown, it turns out\u2014they\u2019re aiming for a 95 percent double vaccination ASAP. So they are already at, in the latest summary I saw, 94.6 percent with a single vaccination. Super Saturday also had a great\u2014well, that\u2019s for the whole of the QLDC, so W\u0101naka is part of that as well. They had a wonderful drive-through event that had lots of people there, and in Queenstown you were able to get your vaccine on a historic steamboat in the harbour there, and even get a coffee, which is great to see the community coming together to provide those sorts of opportunities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo why is Queenstown so focused on getting such a high vaccine rate? Well, one of the reasons is that people like to visit Queenstown. It\u2019s very beautiful, and the population there wants to be protected from those future visitors. On the other side of the coin, it\u2019s a destination that wants people to come and visit. It\u2019s very good to demonstrate that they have a very high vaccine uptake. So I\u2019ve spoken to Mayor Jim Boult about this, and he\u2019s very keen to get those 94.6 percent up to 95 percent and over, and then for them to get their second shot as soon as they can\u2014after three weeks, of course. So we really want to let the visitors in and keep the COVID out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s other parts of beautiful Otago as well, and I can\u2019t touch on all of them because there\u2019s so many, but in Central Otago there\u2019s 87 percent have had their first vaccination and 72 percent are fully vaccinated. Waitaki at 81 percent single and 69 percent double. The media there noted that Timaru and Canterbury were beating them, so hopefully that\u2019ll be changed around very quickly. In Waitaki on Super Saturday the Department of Conservation was offering rides to clinics, which I thought was quite innovative. Where I live, in \u014Ctepoti, there\u2019s been 90 percent first vaccinations and 76 percent second. On Super Saturday, there were 75 sites around the southern region, which includes both Southland and Otago. The DHB tells me that at one of the places you could get your eyebrows waxed while you waited. There was 9,706 doses given, and 811 of those were given to M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EIn Dunedin, where I live, I\u2019d like to touch on the role that Te Kaika has played. This means \u201Cthe village\u201D, and it is a provider that opened in 2018; it\u2019s a partnership between Ng\u0101i Tahu and the University of Otago, and I was lucky to visit it with Minister Henare back in April to talk about the vaccine roll-out, particularly to our M\u0101ori and Pasifika communities. Now, Te Kaika is super-responsive, so from very early on in this current outbreak they were doing pop-ups in stadiums, they were doing pop-ups by the university, and now there\u2019s a bus as well. All of this has been done in conjunction with the DHB; the university has been involved, and so has the council. So it\u2019s been great to see, and that all cumulated on Saturday in The Octagon with, again, members from across the House turning up, the university being there, the museum offering scientific advice to people who were wanting it, and a whole lot of arts and community groups being involved, as well as businesses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo I really want to finish by saying to those people who are not yet vaccinated or who have not yet had their second dose, to please do. The vaccination has amazing benefits for those who are vulnerable, and to enable letting those visitors back in and keeping COVID out. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5ba216752604db4b6860be32518fcb1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5ba216752604db4b6860be32518fcb1\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I want to talk about my home city of Auckland, because it seems that nobody in the Government is. Every Labour Party speaker has got up and told us how fantastic Super Saturday was. The fact is it really tells us that this Government is run like a PR agency. The optics matter more than the substance in their mind, and the cute thing is about these new backbench Labour MPs: I think they really believe it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EWell, let me just give you a few facts about Super Saturday: 39,000 first doses\u2014that\u2019s the number that that is; it\u2019s the first doses that matter, because people eventually get their second dose. So the fact they got their second dose with a saussie is not actually an achievement; they were always going to get it. It\u2019s the first doses that matter, and 39,000 first doses was the 21st best day in this vaccine \u201Cstroll-out\u201D. And they call that a triumph. There were 20 days where more people got their first dose than the so-called Super Saturday with the saussies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EAnd then you might say: \u201CWell, at least things are getting better because they\u2019ve got some enthusiasm, and didn\u2019t everyone come together well?\u201D Well, here\u2019s some more hard facts. If you take the first doses for the day since Super Saturday\u2014and, remember, 39,000 on Saturday\u2014how many on Sunday? Six thousand. How many on Monday? Ten thousand. How many on Tuesday? Ten thousand. Well, the facts are that that compares with the previous Sunday\u20146,000 plays 9,000. The previous Monday: 10,000 plays 15,000. The previous Tuesday: 10,000 plays 17,000. Every day since Super Saturday has been dramatically worse than the previous week for first vaccinations. And even when you count Super Saturday, the average of the last four days has been 15,000; the previous week, the average was 16,000. So we actually had better results in the last week than we have had this week of Super Saturday. That\u2019s the hard reality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003ENow, people listening at home, did they hear how that Labour backbench got a bit quiet? There it is: that\u2019s the sound of the Labour backbench confronted with the facts, because they\u2019ve drunk the kool aid, they believe in the marketing, they believe in the hype. Well, let me tell you: the people in Auckland going into their 65th day of lockdown under this Government, they don\u2019t believe the hype any more. There are so many paradoxes and contradictions in this Government\u2019s response to COVID. We had the Prime Minister stand up yesterday and say the vaccine \u201Cstroll-out\u201D was going so well\u2014was going so well. Well, riddle me this: how is it possible the Government\u2019s doing such a great job on the vaccine \u201Cstroll-out\u201D and we still have the highest restrictions in Auckland of any city in the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EAnd then they say it\u2019s too dangerous for Kiwis to come home\u2014tens of thousands of people stuck offshore, separated from their families. As Brooke van Velden, our deputy leader, pointed out at question time, partners of pregnant women stuck overseas, they can\u2019t get an exemption even to go through the 14 days of managed isolation and quarantine (MIQ). But do you know who does get to skip the 14 days? Gang members. We\u2019re supposed to be bringing back health professionals. The Government said today there\u2019d be 300 spots for them in December. What that tells me is they\u2019re still going to be running MIQ in December, with the borders locked down. I\u2019ve got a tip for those pharmacists that are health professionals. If they put down on the form that they\u2019re drug dealers, they\u2019ll get to skip MIQ, because that\u2019s the fact; that\u2019s the contradiction. And how is it possible that someone who\u2019s double-vaxxed, a Kiwi trying to return home, has to go through 14 days of MIQ after a negative test, and that\u2019s if they\u2019re lucky to get a spot, but someone who has tested positive for COVID is allowed to isolate at home\u2014and Chris Hipkins told us in question time there\u2019s 86 people like that. What an insult to those Kiwis stuck offshore.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s so many paradoxes. The Government is so confident, so well ahead of the game, they\u2019re planning everything so perfectly, but they can\u2019t even tell us what they\u2019re going to announce on Friday. They can\u2019t tell us what happens next week, let alone next month. This is the most incompetent, hopeless Government in the history of New Zealand, and Auckland is paying the price.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022 data-id=\u0022575fc3031770464ebedf1664a05b9957\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022575fc3031770464ebedf1664a05b9957\u0022\u003ETERISA NGOBI (Labour\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E Fakaalofa lahi atu, Mr Speaker. I just want to bring it back to a positive note, because, hopefully, we are all in the same boat of trying to make sure we get people vaccinated, rather than trying to tear each other down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003EIn the \u014Ctaki electorate, we had a great Super Saturday. But actually, I just want to mimic some of what the others have said. It was the lead-up to it, as well as on the day. But on the day, the \u014Ctaki electorate managed 2,151 vaccinations. So we are small but mighty, and although that\u2019s small, it starts to make a gain into where we need to get to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003EIn the K\u0101piti area\u2014so that is my southern area\u2014we gave 351 first doses and 816 second doses. The Horowhenua area, which is in my northern area\u2014we were able to give 417 first doses and 567 second doses. Overall, 70 percent of our K\u0101piti Coast is fully vaccinated, and 62 percent of our Horowhenua people are vaccinated. We still have a way to go, but it was a community effort leading up to and as well as on Saturday, and even past that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003EI want to be able to thank all the volunteers and the health providers that worked really tirelessly, but to just name a few, if I may, we had volunteers\u2014about 10 of them\u2014calling into the \u014Ctaki electorate. We were able to base at my office in Paraparaumu, and we went out and sign-waved with T\u016B Ora, the crew at Te Roto Drive in Paraparaumu. When we got there, it was just before 9 o\u2019clock, and already there was a line out the door. That was amazing. The only incentive was a sausage sizzle if you wanted it. Other than that, people just wanted to get vaccinated to protect their community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003EIn K\u0101piti youth service, with Rachel and the team there, they\u2019ve been working really hard with our rangatahi in Paraparaumu. We had Hora Te Pai at Whakarongotai Marae in Waikanae, led by Di Tatana and her team. They\u2019ve been working right through, only having Sundays off. Saturdays have been a bit quiet for them. I got there just before they opened and, again, they also had a line out the door. The only incentive was a kia ora for the aunties down there and being able to protect their whakapapa and get back to being able to do tikanga the way they know it for M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003EWe had the Waikanae Rugby Club doing their bit, standing up a COVID vaccination site. We had the \u014Ctaki Medical Centre, led by Kiwa, Adrian, and John and the team, and also joined by Bonnie Matehaere, who was doing some great work for the DHB and has been working nearly every day leading up to Super Saturday at Ng\u0101 Purapura, as well as being able to take a bus out to \u014Ctaki Beach and also being able to do M\u0101ori lands as well, which was fantastic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003EWe had the Horowhenua Community Practice team at Horowhenua Events Centre, and they\u2019ve been continuously vaccinating and serving our community there with Sally Hall, via Averill and Sheree. We have the Pasifika team, led by Angelina Toeleiu, who\u2019s doing an amazing job in Levin as well. We have our iwi\u2019s Mua\u016Bpoko, led Tracey White. Ricky Fonoti is in there as well, and Kelly Tahiwi and the others. As well as Raukawa Wh\u0101nau Ora, we had Dean and Dave at Horowhenua Donnelly Park flipping sausages, and they got a bit of a hand from Waimarama Taumaunu and her daughter Tiana, who turned up as well, which was great.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003EWe had the Rapid Relief. We had Berrys pharmacy, Hamish pharmacy, Deseray, Paul, Deb Winiata at Te Awahou in Foxton, who have been going every day and did this Sunday as well. We had the M\u0101ori wardens up and down our coast. We had the M\u0101ori Women\u2019s Welfare League going out there and nannies telling us about what\u2019s happened before and to protect their whakapapa. We had businesses that had the mobile bus at their sites: Alliance Meats in Levin, Mainfreight, Woodhaven, Freshpork.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003EWe still need to increase our vaccination levels, but we do that together, and Saturday in the \u014Ctaki electorate showed what community spirit meant and that we all need to do our bit. I understand the hesitancy. I understand people are a bit worried. Go and talk to somebody. Have a k\u014Drero. Have a talanoa with someone you trust. But what I would say as a mum is my kids are too young to be vaccinated. They are 11, nine, and six. I want to do everything I can as a mum to protect my babies. I always will. But I am asking everybody to go out there and help me protect my babies too. Help us protect all those people who can\u2019t be vaccinated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003EThis is a community effort. This isn\u2019t about political gain. This isn\u2019t about parties. This is about protecting Aotearoa. This is about the business communities who want to open coming together with our M\u0101ori communities, coming together with our Pasifika communities, coming together with our health providers. This is everybody doing their bit, and that\u2019s what we\u2019ve seen in the \u014Ctaki electorate on Super Saturday. That\u2019s what we see in the \u014Ctaki electorate leading up to Super Saturday and beyond. Please help us protect all of Aotearoa. Please have a chat to who you need to. Help me protect my babies as a mamma. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u00227d3e6d097fcc4bd6928ec2830329d66a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d3e6d097fcc4bd6928ec2830329d66a\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (National):\u003C/span\u003E This week, an unusual thing happened in this Parliament. I, together with National Party leader, Judith Collins, stood on a stage with the Minister of Housing, Megan Woods, and the Minister for the Environment, David Parker, zooming in. The question has to be asked: why did that unusual thing happen? It happened because Judith Collins and our caucus are motivated by strong values, and we exist in the National Party to defend those values. We believe in a property-owning democracy; in ambition, success, individual freedom and choice; personal responsibility; competitive enterprise; rewards for achievement; strong families; caring communities; and limited Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EIt is those values that led us this week to support bold action on housing, because we cannot stand by while a generation gives up on the aspiration of home ownership. We cannot stand by while Government red tape and regulation constrains much-needed development. We cannot stand by while New Zealand families are robbed of the freedom and personal security that only affordable homes can provide. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EWe have watched in despair while Labour has attempted all sorts of things to address the housing emergency\u2014banning foreign buyers, promising KiwiBuild homes, imposing new taxes. None of it has worked. The problems have only got worse, and through all of this, National has consistently argued that to address our housing problems, we must reform the Resource Management Act, we must get the red tape out of the way, we must allow land to be used for housing. That is why Judith Collins wrote to the Government in January and said, \u201CWe are here to help.\u201D I believe that it was the desire to receive that help that motivated Ministers Woods and Parker to write back in June and say, \u201CPlease help us with these proposals.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EAnd that is what we did. I want to thank the Government for the work we did together to come up with a set of proposals that create a genuine right to build, that strengthen the property rights of existing property owners, that both enable large development on the edge of growing cities and enable, but not require, denser development in our major cities. The proposals we announced this week take power away from town planners and give it back to the people they serve. Yes, it is not a silver bullet\u2014it will not wipe every tear from every eye\u2014but it is a step forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EAnd to those who say, \u201CI just want a home and garden. I don\u2019t want a townhouse.\u201D, I say to you: no one will take your home and garden away; we\u2019re going to keep building those. And to those who say, \u201CBut there is special heritage that must be protected.\u201D, I say there are still provisions to allow that heritage to be protected. And to those who say, \u201CDevelopment needs to be sensible.\u201D, I say there are still going to be limits for how much of the site can be covered and how high the buildings can be and how far they must be set back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EBut, finally, to those thousands of New Zealanders who say to the members of this Parliament every week, \u201CI need the choice to be able to buy an affordable home.\u201D, I say to them: the proposals we have put forward this week will give you far more choices in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EI started this speech quoting Keith Holyoake, who spoke of our party\u2019s aspiration for a property-owning democracy. Let me finish with the words of our party\u2019s first leader, Adam Hamilton, who said, \u201CEvery encouragement should be given to those who give their best to provide for the needs of their own household. And it is by the development of the private citizen exercising his or her fullest freedom and responsibility that any State becomes great.\u201D The policies put forward this week encourage those who work hard, save hard, and who want to have a stake in our economy through homeownership, and that is why we stood on stage with the Government this week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002263439c874a2043669e108377fb88bfa2\u0022\u003EArms (Firearms Prohibition Orders) Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226292254b5ad240bd80b0601958977d0a\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee133023552d4e71ac6019c6aff0d742\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee133023552d4e71ac6019c6aff0d742\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES (National\u2014Tauranga) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of Simeon Brown: I move, That the Arms (Firearms Prohibition Orders) Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EThe purpose of this member\u2019s bill is to prevent the most dangerous gang members from accessing firearms. And, in that regard, I would like to think, and I hope\u2014and I believe, actually\u2014that is a purpose supported by all members in this House. No one, certainly, can deny what a problem\u2014what a crisis, in fact\u2014this issue is. We have violence and shootings in New Zealand every other day. You only have to pick up any day\u2019s paper and you will see the visceral harm and evidence of that harm, of the violence and the shootings. What\u2019s more, it\u2019s also undeniable now\u2014and people used to mock this from the National Party\u2014that that violence and those shootings are disproportionately from gangs and gang members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003ESo what will this bill do? It will empower the Commissioner of Police to issue firearms prohibition orders against gang members, with two requirements: where they are convicted, in the last decade, of serious violence, domestic violence, or firearms offending, and where the commissioner considers it in the public interest to ensure that the gang member doesn\u2019t possess a firearm. The bill does a set of other important things, including that a person subject to a firearms prohibition order, or a gang member, then can no longer have a firearm, have access to a firearm, or be around them\u2014say, at a gang pad or, indeed, anywhere else for that matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003ENow, at the select committee, a number of good suggestions were made. The committee has recommended a series of amendments, which, I think, turn this from\u2014as is the case with most members\u2019 bills\u2014a member\u2019s bill with a few flaws into one actually that is fit for purpose and very much not only worthy but urgently in need of passing. One issue is of some controversy, that of search powers, and the Police Association came along and they told us\u2014and I thought their submission made perfect sense\u2014that it is clear that, for this law to work and to be effective, search powers and the greatest warrantless search powers are needed. Now, of course, that will be a breach of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, but there is a countervailing issue very much on the other side of the ledger that I say\u2014and I think reasonable New Zealanders would understand\u2014means that we need those search powers in this law, and that\u2019s safety. That\u2019s the need to ensure that New Zealanders aren\u2019t harmed by people with guns and, more particularly, by gang members with guns, given that the evidence is clear about the proliferation of those guns and their violence. National is, and indeed I am, on the side of the safety of New Zealanders, unequivocally in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EThe reality is this: Labour is going to use its majority to vote down this bill, and I say to this House, I say to New Zealanders watching, that is a tragedy, and it will have tragic consequences. See, that violence and those shootings every other day are disproportionately by gangs, and sooner or later, mark my words, an innocent person will be killed in those shootings. We\u2019ve seen Constable Matthew Hunt, a brave young man, in the line of duty killed by gang people with guns in West Auckland. And I note that and the tragedy of it and his brave service. But there will be civilians that will be killed as well if we don\u2019t act. I just note that the first report to the first police Minister of this Labour Government, four years ago, made clear the need for firearms prohibition orders. Nothing has been done, but recently the Government has said, the Labour Party has said, it will introduce firearms prohibition order law soon\u2014I think I\u2019m right in saying before the end of the year. But the problem with that is this: this law is needed now. This is an urgent issue right now\u2014in fact, it was last week, it was the month before, it was six months before, it was a year before\u2014as the gangs and guns and the violence and the shootings and the harms have increased and increased exponentially in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EThis bill, with the amendments recommended, would, as I\u2019ve said, be a fit-for-purpose bill, and given the urgency, I ask Labour to pass it in this House\u2014given that, as I understand it, they are not going to. Actually, the only reason I can see for them not to\u2014certainly the primary reason that I can see for Labour not to pass this law\u2014and I regret to say this, has to be politics and playing politics. And I say, actually, New Zealanders\u2014many New Zealanders\u2014have had a job done on them, where they think that Jacinda Ardern\u2019s Labour Government actually doesn\u2019t do politics. They\u2019re holier than thou; everything\u2019s nice! It\u2019s a very political Government, and it\u2019s, basically, only politics that will see this law that everyone should be behind defeated today in this Parliament. I say that with sorrow, because there\u2019s no primary, big reason that I can see why the Labour members wouldn\u2019t vote for this bill, given they\u2019re going to do substantially the same thing at a later time but don\u2019t want to see the fine member Simeon Brown get the credit for it. I note, actually, just in that regard, in the remaining minutes, they wouldn\u2019t give full police advice to the committee. They want to pass their own law, they say they support this, but they wouldn\u2019t actually be involved with finding the answer in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003ELook, actually, the other conclusion I come to, regrettably again, is that Labour, for whatever reason, has a blind spot, a soft spot, when it comes to gangs, and that seems to be a motivation on this bill too. And if members over there\u2014they\u2019re very quiet. The reality is Willie Jackson, Marama Davidson\u2014actually, other members of that Government\u2014are meeting regularly with gangs. They are soft on gangs. And, as David Seymour was saying just before, we\u2019ve seen it in this age of COVID, where everyone else gets prosecuted and warned by the Government. Anyone who has any kind of meeting with more than a few people ends up getting seen by the police and dealt with by the police. Anyone crossing borders\u2014well, they\u2019re not allowed and, if they do, they get dealt with and prosecuted by the police. But there\u2019s one group in New Zealand where there seems to be no consequences whatever, and who are they? They\u2019re patched gang members in this country\u2014actually, the people, it seems on the evidence quite clearly, who are spreading COVID-19 across the borders in Auckland, through into Waikato and the King Country, up North, and also seem to be the only people who aren\u2019t being named by the Government and shamed on the TV news, I might add. So we\u2019ve seen they\u2019re soft on gangs and COVID, and we\u2019ve seen they\u2019re soft on gangs in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EI want to make these final couple of points. I just also want to note, in relation to guns, the concern I always had, and National always had, with what Labour has done in gun reform in the last small number of years\u2014with the buy-back scheme, the register, and so on\u2014and it is that all they\u2019ll do is get at the good people, the law-abiding people who comply with the law anyway, and they\u2019ve taken plenty of their guns, and then end up doing nothing about the multitude of illegal guns held by gangs in this country. And we see that with this bill today, actually. They\u2019re happy to sock it to pistol clubs and anyone else with historic rifles, but they won\u2019t do a single thing when it comes to gangs. [Interruption] Four years, Poto Williams, and this Government has done nothing when it comes to gangs and guns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EFinally, I want to commend the member who has brought this bill to the House, who\u2019s worked very hard on it, very diligently, the MP for Pakuranga, Simeon Brown. He\u2019s someone, unlike the Hon Poto Williams, who actually is prepared to face up to the problem we have with gangs in New Zealand, with their drug peddling, with their thuggery, and with the proliferation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8e18b0447a645bcbafef6fe547844cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8e18b0447a645bcbafef6fe547844cc\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member\u2019s time has expired. The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022 data-id=\u002202a392ebfabc4c32a701a5d6fc991a04\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202a392ebfabc4c32a701a5d6fc991a04\u0022\u003EDr EMILY HENDERSON (Labour\u2014Whang\u0101rei):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a call on this bill, and, as a member of the select committee who sat on this matter, I first want to start by thanking the 37 submitters who took the time to participate in our democracy. Of the 34 who produced serious or substantive submissions, I believe that it was 27 who profoundly disagreed with this bill, and, unfortunately, I must agree with them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EThis bill is, frankly, a day late and a dollar short. It\u2019s a day late in that the National Party had the opportunity to do something about this and they failed to vote for tougher penalties on gun crime, including taking guns off gangs, harsher penalties for those who push synthetic drugs, and tougher controls on returning terrorists, and, may we just remember, police numbers fell under the National Government. That is not the approach of this Government, but what we want to do is put together legislation that actually works, is comprehensive, and is going to actually sort the problem out\u2014and that\u2019s the other problem with this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EWhen I say it\u2019s a dollar short, it\u2019s a cheap shot and, like most cheap shots, you get what you pay for, and in this case it\u2019s a bill that doesn\u2019t have all the bits. So, as many of the submitters noted, for example, on the much-vaunted comment about a question of search powers, the bill begins by saying that there are going to be additional search powers introduced and then fails to do any such thing. This was quite a relief to the Attorney-General, who said that had such search powers been in the bill, then he might have had some serious questions. But since the member somehow forgot to actually put them in, it wasn\u2019t a problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EThe Justice Committee gave huge consideration to this bill, and what we really noticed\u2014and you can see it in the report\u2014was that just about every single clause would have be amended to drag this bill into some semblance of order and relevance. But I want to take particular notice of one particular issue with it. When I say it\u2019s a day late and a dollar short, I\u2019ve mentioned the day late bit, but the dollar short bit is this total focus on gang membership. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003ENow, this Government is in no way\u2014in no way\u2014taking its foot off the pedal when it comes to gangs. We have made massive strides in addressing the actual issues with gangs and actually hitting them in the pocket, where it hurts. But this bill seems to think gangs are the only issue in the country. This bill sets out to only allow firearms prohibition orders against gang members. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but people who are not in gangs also commit gun crime. People who are in organised criminal groups that are not classified as gangs\u2014they sometimes do it. Terrorists\u2014now, there\u2019s a group that under Mr Brown\u2019s bill would not be subject to firearm prohibition orders, and this was a point made repeatedly by submitters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EIf you\u2019re going to create firearm prohibition orders\u2014and we profoundly agree that you should\u2014you need to actually make them do something. You need to actually produce a piece of legislation that\u2019s going to have some longevity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t really see the point in a single-issue law. Why are we only targeting gang members with this piece of legislation? If you\u2019re going to produce something as useful as a firearm prohibition order, then why can\u2019t we make it for all the people who create problems with illegal firearms or with poor control of their guns? I don\u2019t know. We could ask Simeon Brown. It really was something that was a continuing matter of concern for us, and it is a reason we just can\u2019t support this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EBut what we are going to do is bring in a piece of legislation that is fit for purpose and that will be comprehensive in the way this bill, sadly, simply isn\u2019t. The bill that we are going to bring in at the end of this year, which is not a rushed matter\u2014it\u2019s been under consideration. There has been consultation going out for some time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bccf4b59e404497896839a4672862f1\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: For four years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022278d2eeb57eb41a4a6b1267ab96b4b37\u0022\u003EDr EMILY HENDERSON\u003C/span\u003E: Sometimes it\u2019s worth doing something thorough, you see. Sometimes, it\u2019s better than producing, as I say, a cheap piece of legislation that ain\u2019t going to do nothing. So the bill that we\u2019re going to produce instead is going to cover not only gang members with convictions\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213eb25e797e9476aab301f411800b5ef\u0022\u003EBarbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Speaker. Just noting that one of the members doesn\u2019t have their mask on. They\u2019ve just put it on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b66ba896efc048d895b17a7b2f05ef08\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3f9c7f0cd6e4f2ca793040b318879bb\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Emily Henderson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022605338f898424b72b114383ed9488317\u0022\u003EDr EMILY HENDERSON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. So whereas Mr Brown\u2019s well-intentioned but, frankly, a little bit sloppy bill only covers gang members with convictions, leaving large gaps on who will and won\u2019t be covered, as I have said\u2014gang members without convictions or people who are convicted of terrorist offences, for instance\u2014the Government\u2019s bill is going to look at the actions of the person, not the colour of their jacket. So we are going to include those who are convicted of serious firearm offences, serious violent offences, an offence of participation in organised criminal groups\u2014section 98A of the Crimes Act\u2014and terrorism-related offences. This is a bill that concentrates on where it actually matters\u2014not the colour of the jacket, not the cheap shot, not the easy media message, but it\u2019s actually dealing with the people who commit the crimes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EWhen I look at this, as an ex - Family Court lawyer, I think about all those women who are threatened and harmed by gun violence, who, according to Simeon Brown, don\u2019t merit protection. It\u2019s not OK. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EThe point of doing this is to do it well, surely. Otherwise, what\u2019s the point of our salaries? We aren\u2019t here to keep creating bits of legislation that then have to be added to and added to. We\u2019re here to do our best job and to do it thoroughly and to do it comprehensively. That is what the Government is going to do, and what we are already doing for gangs or to gangs is similarly comprehensive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003ESo I would remind the members opposite of some of the things that we\u2019ve done that they\u2019ve, sadly\u2014a day late and a dollar short. This Government has invested $450 million in the police since we came to office. That\u2019s 700 police staff who are dedicated to organised crime-fighting, and the total police workforce is now over 14,000\u2014more than they have ever had previously. Already, those numbers have allowed us to devote those organised police officers to operations such as Operation Tauwhiro, which was launched in February this year, and which is aimed at the disruption and prevention of firearms violence by criminal gangs\u2014surprise, surprise. Since February, 1,091 firearms have been seized, along with $5.5 million in cash, and 940 people have been arrested in relation to firearms offences. The operation has been so effective in cracking down on gangs, it\u2019s been extended for six months. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EWe are committed to a comprehensive package of moves. We are also going to bring in the criminal proceeds recovery Act to further enable us to crack down on gangs where they actually hurt; not taking cheap shots that generate headlines but do nothing\u2014nothing\u2014to actually address the problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EYou can do things on the basis of the colour of the cover of the book, or you can actually go through the pages and actually read all those long words and do something that is actually going to make a difference for this country. Unfortunately, Mr Brown\u2019s bill is absolutely not fit for the purpose that it intends. It\u2019s a pity. It\u2019s a bit of a waste of our time, perhaps. It is not something where we feel there is any point in continuing to expend Government money cleaning it up. We\u2019ve got a better option\u2014we\u2019re going to do it properly. For that reason, I just cannot commend this bill to this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1d4f42e8020468f8e847c29a7eb23c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1d4f42e8020468f8e847c29a7eb23c6\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E Well, goodness, gracious me. I mean, normally new MPs come to Parliament with a bit of humbleness. They come in with a bit of respect for the institution and respect for people who\u2019ve gone before, but that speech is a perfect demonstration of why that member will be a one-term MP only. I mean, the arrogance displayed from the Government in response to this bill is quite extraordinary. The member who just spoke says the bill was a day late and a dollar short\u2014the chutzpah of that member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThis Government has now been in for going on four years\u2014in fact, it\u2019s ticked over four years. For four years this Government has been promising firearms prohibition orders. One of the first things Stuart Nash did when he became the Minister of Police in 2017 was he issued a very ill-advised press release which was that the Government, the Labour - New Zealand First Government, was going to smash the gangs. And when he became the police Minister, it was all about going after organised crime, going after the gangs. Smash the gangs is what he said they were going to do, and he said that they were going to introduce firearm prohibition orders, because what the member who just spoke doesn\u2019t realise is that there is a history to this issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo if you go all the way back to 2017 and the inquiry from the then Law and Order Committee into firearms in New Zealand, that bipartisan committee recommended that firearms prohibition orders be introduced. That went to Paula Bennett, National campaigned in 2017 on introducing firearms prohibition orders. Obviously, we lost the election, the Government changed. Stuart Nash says we\u2019re all going to do it. So we put a bill in the ballot, and it was actually originally, back in 2018, in my name. The bill got pulled, it came up for its first reading, and we said to the Government, \u201CRighty-ho, put your money where your mouth is. Here\u2019s a bill. Back your words with actions. Vote for the bill.\u201D They voted it down. OK, fair enough. New Government, they wanted to take some advice. And do you know what the excuse was then? Literally exactly the same language as Emily Henderson used, which is \u201CThis bill\u2019s inadequate but we\u2019ve got a good one coming, just wait.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThat was in 2018. Here we are, there\u2019s only been another election that\u2019s happened in the meantime. In fact, we\u2019re a year after the election\u2014almost at the tail-end of 2021, and what are Labour MPs saying? \u201COh, this bill\u2019s inadequate. We don\u2019t like this bill, but, don\u2019t worry, there\u2019s a bill coming.\u201D Well, we\u2019re yet to see it. So for Emily Henderson to stand up and say this bill\u2019s a day late, when this Government\u2019s had four years to introduce a bill and get it to the committee is brazen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo my bill was defeated in 2018. April 2019, we had another attempt, because people will remember there was the Christchurch attacks and Parliament moved very quickly to reform firearms legislation. And I wrote to Stuart Nash, and Simon Bridges wrote to Jacinda Ardern at the time, and we said, \u201CWhile you\u2019re having a go at sporting shooters\u201D\u2014because we all agreed that we wanted to take the semiautomatic high-powered weapons out of the hands of New Zealanders, everyone agreed on that, but the bill went too far in terms of sporting shooters and things like that. So we said, \u201CLook, while you\u2019re having a go at the hunting community and the sports shooting community, why don\u2019t you have a go at the gangs at the same time? So have a Supplementary Order Paper (SOP). Here\u2019s our firearms prohibition regime, drafted by the National Party. Take it. Insert it as an SOP into the firearms bill going through the Parliament.\u201D So that was a very sensible suggestion. It was done in the spirit of bipartisanship and good faith. The Government said no. OK, fair enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThen 2020 rolls around and the bill gets pulled again. This time it\u2019s in the hands of Brett Hudson\u2014now it\u2019s in the hands of Simeon Brown. And this time around New Zealand First\u2014I think they could sense what was happening towards the election time\u2014sends it off to select committee. The Government wasn\u2019t very happy about it but there was nothing they could do about it. So the bill goes off to select committee with National and New Zealand First, and it\u2019s sat there ever since. And the depressing thing about Emily Henderson\u2019s speech is that the bill\u2019s been at the committee since July 2020. It got pulled in February 2020, it\u2019s been there since July, so it\u2019s over a year now. The bill sat at the committee, and the committee, as I understand it, has worked hard under the chairwomanship of Ginny Andersen now and whoever the chair was prior to the election\u2014they\u2019ve worked hard to improve the bill. They\u2019ve taken extensive advice is my understanding\u2014I\u2019m no longer a member of the committee\u2014and they\u2019ve improved the bill. There\u2019s been a bunch of changes made to the bill. The committee\u2019s worked hard on it. And here it comes back, we think the bill\u2019s in decent shape to advance it to try and improve things substantively for the country, for all the reasons that my colleague Simon Bridges raises in terms of the impact of gangs on our community, and now we discover that the Labour Party, which has a Government majority, is going to vote against it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s just, frankly, aggravating. And it would be OK if\u2014well, it would be more tolerable, I suppose, if the Government had a bill before the House on the Order Paper that was about to come up or had it had already been sent to the committee; that would sort of be understandable, but they don\u2019t. All we have is a press release from Kris Faafoi. And isn\u2019t it funny, everything that the Government stuffs up in the justice space has Kris Faafoi\u2019s fingerprints all over it these days: hate speech, conversion therapy, now this regime\u2014the firearms regime. But anyway, all we have is a press release from Kris Faafoi and Minister Poto Williams saying there\u2019s a bill coming. Well, literally, the Government has been issuing press releases and media statements about firearms prohibition orders for four years now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI just did a quick Google search of police Minister and firearms prohibition orders and every time this bill gets talked about or the issue gets talked about, it\u2019s really interesting. Normally what happens is the Labour backbench insult the whole idea. They talk about human rights and they talk about warrantless searches and they talk about how the bill\u2019s an affront and we can\u2019t possibly tolerate it, and then halfway through their speech they suddenly realise that they\u2019re actually meant to be at least in favour, theoretically, of the concept, so they kind of start changing their mind and say, \u201COh, but it\u2019s just the way this one\u2019s drafted. We don\u2019t like this particular version of the bill.\u201D Even though, as I say, the committee\u2019s actually improved this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s aggravating, because this Government has had four years to do something about firearms prohibition orders and it\u2019s not there. And Emily Henderson says, \u201CI don\u2019t think this issue can be boiled down to a single issue.\u201D, and she is particularly upset that the bill, as drafted by Simeon Brown, focuses on gangs. Well, the interesting thing about the press release her own colleagues issued, Kris Faafoi and Poto Williams, is it\u2019s all about gangs. So the Government\u2019s own reason for being in favour of firearms prohibition orders is to take guns off gangs. So Emily Henderson might not like the fact that this bill just focuses on gangs, but the Government itself recognises that they are a big issue. I quote from the press release: \u201C[We\u2019ve got] to combat the influence of gangs and organised crime to help keep New Zealanders \u2026 safe.\u201D Well, we completely agree. And the reality is Simon Bridges is completely right: it\u2019s just raw politics here. This is not a decision made with anything other than politics in mind; it\u2019s as simple as that. The bill is in good shape, the bill has gone through a select committee process\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285ea66e8f02b4c43ba2ae8e052c3dc0e\u0022\u003EHon Poto Williams\u003C/span\u003E: No it wasn\u2019t, that\u2019s the point. It\u2019s not in great shape.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229715a732d513423d99cca4ef1bce466b\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the Minister says the bill\u2019s not in great shape. Well, I invite the Minister to do some work for once and introduce a bill that the Government\u2019s been purportedly working on for four years. I will take seriously what the Minister says about this bill when the Government introduces their own bill, seriously. I will take seriously their complaints about it when they actually put their money where their mouth is and introduce their own legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI mean, you sometimes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a500cdb0b3b4b71b2c6f409b8d619aa\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Until then it\u2019s a Tui\u2019s ad.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6c2deb358c446d2b0047217a103faa6\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Until then it\u2019s a Tui\u2019s ad.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a05374a93c249c5ac15ffa92c691dfe\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Take a call, Poto.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271ced9bc5330400cbaf4d0afeb9f12f5\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we look forward to the Minister taking a call\u2014looking forward to the Minister taking a call on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EBut the reality is, under this Government, as Greg O\u2019Connor knows so well, because I\u2019ve read his first reading\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207f0447e4c7242439215085284599dcf\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019d be all right as police Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022daf1a77c645147c3ac707454fd181c4a\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: He would be all right as police Minister. I read his first reading speech on my legislation back in 2018, and Greg O\u2019Connor talks at length with great verbosity about his time in the police and how bad gangs are, and how it\u2019s really important we crack down on the gangs\u2014we\u2019ve got to take guns off the gangs, gangs are an affront to a dignified society and a civilised country, and I agree with Greg O\u2019Connor. And the sad thing is he\u2019s a member of a Government that has spent four years doing basically nothing about the gangs, and now we have gang membership and gang violence out of control. Gang membership\u2019s increased more than 50 percent under this Government, and the Government doesn\u2019t like being told about gang membership exploding because they say of the National Gang List, which is publicly available official data\u2014that we\u2019re not allowed to use it, and we\u2019ve even got the Police Commissioner saying we shouldn\u2019t publish it, which is just crazy. So now we have 8,000 gang members\u2014the highest number of gang members ever\u2014and they didn\u2019t hand back the guns during the two amnesties. They didn\u2019t hand back the guns then, they\u2019ll never give back the guns. In fact, they\u2019re on the record publicly saying they\u2019re not going to give back the guns. The only alternative is for Parliament to pass legislation with teeth to make sure that the police can go and take them off them. This is a step forward. It\u2019s a shame the Government doesn\u2019t agree.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00226edefa2b04e141cfbe9570a411cd0d49\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226edefa2b04e141cfbe9570a411cd0d49\u0022\u003EGREG O\u2019CONNOR (Labour\u2014\u014Ch\u0101riu):\u003C/span\u003E Just for anyone listening at home to the debate this afternoon that sort of might be tempted to believe some of the things they\u2019re hearing, our prisons are full of gang members and gang associates and more are going in there every day. Now, I\u2019m not going to stand here and rubbish\u2014contradict\u2014what\u2019s been said by the Opposition, because that\u2019s the problem with both firearms and gangs. They make very good, sexy speeches in the House, on both sides and for all hues of Government, but, unfortunately, if we believe that what we\u2019re going to do here is all of a sudden have some mystical ability to diminish the power and influence of gangs, then we are wrong. What we will do, we will take a coordinated approach, a joined-up approach, a strategic approach which will ensure that we start at the recruiting level and we finish at the top level where people, relatively few people, are making a lot of money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s important to understand how we reached this place and these are two things that come together: guns and gangs. Now, gangs have always been with us. They\u2019ve been right through\u2014you go to the back streets of the United Kingdom in the 1800s, in the Victorian age, there were gangs. There have always been. And the essence of gangs is a sphere of intimidation. It\u2019s the ability to get someone else to go to jail for you, to get someone else to take a bullet, a knife, or what else for you. So it\u2019s very important that we actually understand where the power of gangs comes from and, as I say, it comes from that sphere of intimidation. These gangs are also very hierarchal. So what we risk by taking a piecemeal approach to this, is that we will play at the edges, we will tinker at the edges, but we won\u2019t actually be able to deal with the real issue, which no country has actually been able to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESo in parallel with this, we\u2019ve also had a firearm problem, which again has transcended Governments, and it\u2019s important to understand how we\u2019ve arrived at this because when we look at this bill or any other bill, we need to understand exactly what the problem is we\u2019re trying to solve. Now, firearms became an issue\u2014there will be those in the House who probably had firearms. Probably Mr McKelvie and myself may be the only ones under the old system where each firearm was actually licensed and actually it wasn\u2019t the person who was licensed, it was the firearm. So going through the process of buying a firearm meant every firearm at some stage was seen by a police officer and would be recorded. So every firearm, someone was responsible for\u2014it was very obvious who owned it. We could trace that back so the owner of the firearm had responsibility for it. That was a paper-based system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EBefore computers, probably about five years too early, a decision was made that because the paper-based system had collapsed\u2014and while you might be able to get some records locally for your local firearms, trying to do that nationally was pretty much impossible. So a decision was made, and I think most in retrospect would say the wrong decision was made, that firearms\u2019 owners would be licensed instead. What that meant is that all of a sudden no one was responsible for individual firearms and so a plethora of firearms began entering the country. The police didn\u2019t invest money in monitoring the firearms law and that got out of control as well and was shown up on several occasions. It was shown up by the shootings in Otago when, of course, we had the Aramoana shootings. Even on that occasion it showed that there was an individual who even though he should have been picked up by the system wasn\u2019t and, worse still, he was able to buy as many firearms as he liked. That wasn\u2019t fixed at the time as well as it could have been. There were a couple of changes made and again there were a couple of High Court cases where police attempted to control the numbers of firearms coming into the country. Unfortunately, the courts ordered against police and what was a trickle of firearms coming into the country became an absolute avalanche and to this day nobody knows how many firearms there are in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EIn a previous iteration or a previous job I had we were pushing hard to get an inquiry into firearms in New Zealand and it took the shooting for four police officers in Kawerau before the then Minister, Judith Collins, agreed to actually have an inquiry. As the previous speaker, Mr Bishop, pointed out, some reasonable recommendations came from the select committee; unfortunately, the good ones were blocked by the New Zealand First representative and so what could have been an opportunity taken was actually missed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESo coming back to the bill, Madam Speaker, which I can see even with your mask on you are seeking me to do, it\u2019s important to know what was happening with the gangs at the same time. Around about 2012 to 2013, the numbers of gangs started to rise, particularly the Mongrel Mob, and the Mongrel Mob were running the prisons. And what the other gangs realised was that they needed numbers, so the numbers of gang members needed to be increased by the other gangs so they could actually hold their own in prison. Across this also we had the 501s, where, despite the fact that we were getting on apparently quite well with the Government at the time, we then started to get planeloads of the worst of our criminals trained in Australia; they came and hit our shores. So we got the planets aligned quite badly for all these things to come together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EI come to the bill now and why this bill\u2014[Interruption] Well, there are some things to commend it, and my previous opponent in \u014Ch\u0101riu, Brett Hudson, was lucky enough to get this bill redrawn\u2014there was a lot wrong with the bill and there still is because it is rather piecemeal. What is absolutely necessary and the reason I\u2019ve arrived at this place speaking about firearms and gangs and putting them together is that just looking at either of these things in isolation simply will not work. I know in the past when I trained detectives, if you look at the Crimes Act and look at the Arms Act you\u2019ll see some very similar pieces of legislation, because so often when we\u2019ve arrived at this time, whoever\u2019s been in Government, someone has come up, \u201CWe\u2019ve got a problem, let\u2019s pass another piece of legislation.\u201D What you end up is some virtually identical pieces of legislation that again are relatively meaningless. Anyone who generally comes before the courts charged with a firearms offence associated with a crime generally gets a pretty good send off and there is legislation that enables a judge who is well informed to actually deal with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESo what we really require now is the firearm protection orders need to be part of a broader piece of legislation, because I go back to what I said: the people who will be carrying the firearms, the people who have the firearms, the people who have got the violence convictions, they are not the ones who are going to be going to prison because they don\u2019t actually carry the firearms\u2014they don\u2019t have them. I go back to what I said: the essence of gangs is that sphere of intimidation and the sphere of intimidation means that you can get people to go across some border for you into the Waikato to sell drugs to bring the money back with firearms, and apparently a bit of KFC as well, because if you are told to do that, you will do that even though it is actually a fraught activity. The chances of you getting caught are very high\u2014and they were caught and many gang members are caught and, as I said before, that is why our prisons are actually full and getting fuller of gang members every day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESo this doesn\u2019t require the next speaker to stand up here and lambast this Government, past Governments, future Governments for what they have and haven\u2019t done because that will get us nowhere. You could go through Hansard and see that speeches like that have been made from time immemorial. What it does require is a well-thought-out, coordinated, joined-up piece of legislation that will incorporate much of what\u2019s in this bill but will also incorporate good asset seizure, which will see gang members who turn up in a flash vehicle, a flash motorcycle, or anything flash, or with a hundred thousand dollars\u2019 worth of jewellery on them\u2014that that can be taken unless they can show that it was legally acquired. This is the type of joined-up legislation, these are the types of joined-up strategies that are going to be absolutely necessary so that those who succeed us in this House are making these same speeches in 25 years\u2019 time. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u002243e101dc75a14f908a8a9522c5a1e384\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243e101dc75a14f908a8a9522c5a1e384\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. I rise to speak to the second reading of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EOf course, the Green Party policy on gun control has probably been the most comprehensive of any party in this House for many, many years. We\u2019ve long supported making it illegal to own semi-automatic weapons, having a gun registration system, reducing the licensing period, and reviewing vetting procedures. And, of course, that really is the point, right? It\u2019s all about reducing access to violent firearms that are capable of killing large numbers of people. The point of that approach is to reduce harm to our communities, not to try and scapegoat or blame one particular part of society over any other, because some of the worst shootings that we\u2019ve had, that have affected innocent civilians in this country, have not in fact been from gang members; it\u2019s been white supremacists or people with quite, you know, serious issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI think what we\u2019re seeing with this bill, and what we\u2019ve seen\u2014it\u2019s quite ironic listening to the National Party speakers on this bill, because they\u2019re saying this bill is being voted down because of politics. The only reason they\u2019re putting forward this bill is petty, superficial politics. Scaremongering\u2014a systematic approach to criminal justice legislation from the National Party, dog-whistling with very racist undertones and overtones, not the slightest bit interested in effective legislation that would reduce access to firearms from anyone with criminal intent, but a specific, bespoke piece of legislation, dog-whistling by blaming gangs for all of the problems in this country rather than saying \u201CLet\u2019s take an effective and systematic approach and reduce harm in our communities caused by firearms no matter where it\u2019s coming from, including white supremacists.\u201D I would love to see that sort of approach from the National Party. I assume the ACT Party is going to get up and say something very similar to the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E The list of 35 gangs that was originally put forward in this particular bill particularly focuses on M\u0101ori and Pacific populations. Those are not the only criminal groups that we need to prohibit from holding gun licences. And I think we learnt that in Christchurch. So just classic, race-baiting populist politics from the National Party, a useless piece of legislation again from the member Simeon Brown. It\u2019s not the only useless bit of legislation targeting, specifically aimed at, gang members rather than taking an approach that would affect all criminals and all people who are causing harm in our communities to be pulled from the ballot. He\u2019s been incredibly lucky in that respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EBut yeah, our criminal justice system has tended to create more problems than it\u2019s solved. Of course, the National Party will never take an evidence-based approach to reducing harm in our communities. They prefer to appeal to tribalism, to scaremonger, to make sure that the good people sitting at home watching the news feel very, very afraid, rather than taking effective approaches to reduce harm in our community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo the Green Party opposed this legislation at first reading. We oppose it at second reading. We look forward to it going away and for us to actually support the Government in an effective approach to criminal justice and to firearms prohibition that will actually reduce harm in our communities rather than dog-whistling to racists.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00224d5ce6693fc94752a012e131645bd6b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d5ce6693fc94752a012e131645bd6b9\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I enjoyed that speech from Julie Anne Genter; thank you very much. It\u2019s important, I think, to just affirm what she said, which is that what\u2019s needed here is not some chest beating, and she used the word, I think, \u201Cdog whistles\u201D to a pretty vile image, which is of brown people in South Auckland, and that isn\u2019t the problem here. Gangs across New Zealand come in all shapes and sizes. It\u2019s a pity, and I hope I\u2019m allowed to say this, in these unusual circumstances, that Mr Brown isn\u2019t able to present his own bill here in the House, because I would very much like to be able to eyeball him across the room and say that we are tired of him, at every opportunity\u2014even the opportunity when someone bought a prisoner a hamburger for a great kapa haka team performance; he leapt on that, and what a vile, vile approach to crime and justice that is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENo, what we want to do is to take a careful, a measured, and a balanced approach, and that\u2019s an approach which isn\u2019t just leaping at a moment\u2019s notice onto firearms prohibition orders. Yes, there is something in it; yes, the approach and the theme is correct; but it\u2019s not fit for purpose. This bill is simply not fit for purpose. This Government will be introducing work on firearm prohibition orders. The work it\u2019s done on firearms is well known, and some of that work has been done with cooperation across the House, but there\u2019s more work to do, and it isn\u2019t just a knee-jerk reaction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ELook, the Justice Committee here\u2014and I\u2019ve got the select committee report\u2014did a Herculean task; I\u2019ve never seen so much red ink. But the fact of the matter is that you can\u2019t make the proverbial silk purse out of a sow\u2019s ear, and this bill, which, admittedly, I understand, wasn\u2019t drafted by Mr Brown\u2014it was Mr Hudson\u2019s original bill\u2014is just not a workable framework. I accept that, as I know as a humble backbencher, drafting a member\u2019s bill doesn\u2019t have the resources of Government, but that\u2019s why the Minister needs to be given the space to properly prepare something which addresses all of the thorny issues, and there are thorny issues in firearms prohibition orders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EOne of those which needs addressing is exactly who they extend to. What is the reach of a member of a criminal organisation? Is the trigger, for example, as I understand is in here, some kind of serious criminal offending, or should it extend a little bit further, perhaps? Should it extend to associates, people who are members of what is, essentially, a criminal organisation but have managed to escape the long arm of the law to date? That\u2019s an inquiry that we need to have, and I suggest that it\u2019s something where we need to perhaps look a little more carefully, because if the policy underpinning this is firearm safety, as it should be\u2014and everyone\u2019s policy is firearm safety\u2014then we need to ask the question: where is the risk coming from? Is it coming from only those people who have done hard time\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022356820b55b8845b78c712d89d133fee3\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s coming from gangs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da724874424d409ab1ecb76699c9c031\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014for criminal offences, or is it coming from a wider group of people, including\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d0fd51fab6043479d564a68590b592c\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, come on!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b9d966c6e344758a859359a54913016\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014to the future mayor of Tauranga\u2014recent recruits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d12c08e98fc4496870dcec3bac9356c\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s out of order to refer to a member who\u2019s not in the House, and Jan Tinetti\u2019s in the Beehive at the current time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d1640be43f046a19d1721cf482b39c4\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member. That is not a point of order. While I\u2019m on my feet, I just want to reflect on some of the behaviour and language that has been a feature of the last couple of interventions. I\u2019m relying on Speaker\u2019s ruling 44/2 to with regards to the use of the word \u201Cracist\u201D being used in an insulting and demeaning way, and I note that towards the end of the Speaker\u2019s ruling, \u201Cthe presiding officer must make a judgment.\u201D I\u2019d just like to warn the House that in a couple of previous interventions, I believe that threshold was getting very close. I\u2019m very confident that speeches to this debate in the future will not be skirting into that dangerous territory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5225718b05f4de8bff8a1bd84897db6\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I was, of course, in my earlier contribution, referring to my views of the underlying policies and not to the values of any member that may be involved in it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022184393bc21894cb0973721f0c0ecb647\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member will resume his seat. I thank the member. I don\u2019t need to be told and given an explanation of where I may have been wrong in my ruling. I have ruled; I am now inviting the member to continue with his speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226321ec068c694e61be785bd481a9dd70\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: So we absolutely need to look at the reach of these firearms prohibition orders, and, of course, we need to look at not only to whom they may attach\u2014gangs, the gang associates\u2014but also the locations involved. As the select committee rightly pointed out, and wrestled with, there are very much New Zealand Bill of Rights Act issues about entry into premises, whether they be, you know, gang pads, if you like, gang houses, houses that are known resorts for gang members, or whether in fact they be ordinary residences. Of course, once we extend, if we look at extending, the reach to people who are gang associates, not necessarily convicted criminals, then we do have to think very carefully about the right to enter into premises.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EHaving said that, you know, the rights issues in respect of this legislation have to be seen against the background that there is no human right to carry a gun. This is not a right such as that entrenched in the American Constitution; this is a privilege which is conferred by the Arms Act, and therefore the granting of a license or the ability to obtain a licence, that this legislation if passed would take away\u2014which a firearms provision order is\u2014that is, essentially, a discretion, a benefit, extended by Government to citizens. It\u2019s not the case to say that not having the right to bear a firearm is some fundamental breach of rights. However, the right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure is, and that\u2019s something which isn\u2019t sufficiently worked through in the legislation before us. The balance must be carefully struck. The threshold, the evidential burden that needs to be shown before a police officer or other authorised person can enter into a residential premises must be high, and there must be a safety threshold.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EBut the other thing is this: that, standing alone, a piece of legislation like this doesn\u2019t do it. It\u2019s got to be part of an integrated response. We all know, I think, on both sides of the House, that gangs are not\u2014they are the symptom, not the disease, and we absolutely have to address the disease as well, not only by addressing the activities of gangs but by the drivers of poverty, of alienation, and so on as well. This bill, if passed, wouldn\u2019t do the job. It\u2019s clunky, unworkable. In some places, it doesn\u2019t go far enough; in other places, it doesn\u2019t deal with human rights issues satisfactorily.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ELook, obviously, all parties in the House want to work on this, from the Greens to the ACT Party. We do have different approaches, but the idea that we shouldn\u2019t allow people who are known dangers to the community to have guns goes without saying. Absolutely we\u2019re committed to it on this side of the House, and it\u2019s great to know that it\u2019ll be supported when a fully-fledged bill is introduced. But until we get to that stage, it\u2019s no good putting a half a bill\u2014a half a bill\u2014into law, because it\u2019s only going to create more work, and we know that you can\u2019t build a strong house on a foundation of sand, and this would be a foundation of sand. It would be washed away; lawyers would drive a truck through it. It would be ineffective, and it would become a laughingstock. To be honest, it wouldn\u2019t do justice even to Simeon Brown, so we\u2019re actually doing him a favour here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo, look, the fact of the matter is that there is work to do. It\u2019s part of the wider programme of police and justice in the gangs sector. This is a bill which, arguably, shouldn\u2019t have gone to select committee because it was never really going to work, but you probably couldn\u2019t know that until the select committee did its work. I must say, to the chair of that select committee\u2014done a fantastic job. Of course we\u2019re following select committee advice when it said, \u201CLook, we don\u2019t think it should be passed, but if you must, here\u2019s some tidy-ups.\u201D The select committee itself came to that conclusion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo, look, Simeon Brown\u2019s had a fairly good run out of members\u2019 bills, and I suspect we\u2019re going to hear from him again in the not too distant future, but this isn\u2019t one that should go any further. But I do look forward to discussing constructively a much more thorough, thoughtful, and well-planned-out firearms prohibition orders bill in the near future. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u00223e96177460d547bca1ef460df3056984\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e96177460d547bca1ef460df3056984\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on behalf of ACT, in place of our usual spokesperson on this particular bill\u2014and our justice spokesperson\u2014Nicole McKee, in support of the Arms (Firearms Prohibition Orders) Amendment Bill (No 2).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThis is not a particularly complicated bill. It allows the police to stop gangs from getting guns; that\u2019s what it allows them to do. It\u2019s based on the simple premise that if you\u2019re in a gang, you\u2019re on the National Gang List, and you\u2019re committing crimes, then you shouldn\u2019t have a gun. The funny thing is that the Labour Party usually are the first to say that it\u2019s a privilege to have a firearm\u2014usually; they\u2019re usually the first people to say that: it\u2019s not a right, it\u2019s a privilege, they\u2019ll say. And yet they\u2019re also now trying to say that they want to fight to maintain that privilege for gangs. They think it will be terrible to discriminate against people who are involved in organised crime. Now, I\u2019m as much in favour of equality before the law and human rights as the next guy\u2014in fact, I can claim to have done my bit for those causes at certain times; more than most\u2014but the idea that being involved in organised crime and identified as such, being in the National Gang List, being convicted of a crime, doesn\u2019t even remove what the Labour Party calls the privilege of having a firearm, is really quite extraordinary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EAnd you have to wonder why exactly they think that is. I\u2019m mindful of your ruling a moment ago, Madam Speaker, that we shouldn\u2019t have epithets or accusations of racism in Parliament, and I think that\u2019s a very important thing that this House maintains that standard. But it was just so odd that the Labour Party members, two different Labour Party members, said that somehow this bill was racist. Well, that\u2019s fascinating, because this bill doesn\u2019t talk about race, at all; it doesn\u2019t mention it. It says that if you do a couple of things, that, sadly, people from all ethnic backgrounds do\u2014join a gang, get convicted of a crime\u2014then you can have your firearm taken off you. But two Labour Party speakers got up on their hind legs in this House and said that somehow this legislation was racially motivated\u2014although there\u2019s no race mentioned in it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EHow did they come to that conclusion? There\u2019s two possible theories here: either the Labour Party were actually deliberately trying to impugn people who support this bill as having racial motives, even though they don\u2019t, and they were doing that for political reasons\u2014trying to impugn the character of others\u2014or they genuinely believe that M\u0101ori and Pacific people, as they mention, are more likely to be members of gangs, and, therefore, if you follow their logic, it would be wrong to put firearm prohibition orders on gang members because it would affect more people who are M\u0101ori and Pacific.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003ENow, standing before you right now, I don\u2019t even know what the ethnic breakdown of people on the National Gang List is, but I do find it deeply troubling that the Labour Party, by making those comments, was either trying to deliberately smear and impugn the character of people who are worried about gang violence and gang gun violence\u2014that\u2019s one possibility\u2014or they genuinely do think in such a coloured world that they believe the ethnicity of people is somehow more important than basic, basic things that unite all humanity, such as not wanting organised crime in your community, and, if you have organised crime in your community, not wanting organised criminals with guns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI just leave that there, but I think it speaks volumes about the politics of the Labour Party\u2014the way that they approach this particular issue. I can see some of the Labour backbenchers looking very attentively, because they know better than me which one it was, and they\u2019re not comfortable with it, and they shouldn\u2019t be, and that\u2019s because there\u2019s some good people in the backbenches of the Labour Party\u2014people with real thoughtfulness and conviction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003ENow, the other problem with this Government\u2019s approach\u2014you know, the Government\u2019s going to vote this legislation down\u2014is that they have taken an approach to organised crime and guns that is incredibly disturbing to a lot of people. Just today, we\u2019ve been debating the fact that if you are a gang member, you can end up isolating at home under the current COVID response. If, on the other hand, you are one of tens of thousands of Kiwis suffering in a variety of excruciating ways, separated from your family and your home and your business, and so on\u2014in some cases, separated from your expectant wife\u2014you are unable to come to New Zealand and home-isolate, but if you\u2019re a gang you\u2019re allowed to do it. It really is quite an extraordinary thing that this Government has taken an approach to gangs where their gang programme, or anti-gang programme, is called Operation Tauwhiro. Now, I asked the Prime Minister: did she know that Tauwhiro means to care for or nurture\u2014and it turns out she didn\u2019t. But, of course, somebody in the Government either couldn\u2019t speak te reo M\u0101ori, couldn\u2019t consult a te reo M\u0101ori dictionary, or generally thought the way to approach gangs was to care for and nurture them. And then they gave the gangs $2.75 million of money taken from the gangs for dealing drugs to help people\u2014get this, Madam Speaker\u2014get off drugs. I mean, this has got to be the most sophisticated money laundering programme that the New Zealand Government\u2019s ever been involved in\u2014but maybe just about anywhere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EUnderpinning this Government and this Labour Party approach in the House today is an approach to gangs that says, \u201CActually, if there\u2019s a privilege,\u201D as they see firearm ownership, \u201Cthen for a variety of quite twisted reasons, the gangs should have that privilege too.\u201D And I think that is totally at odds with the values of the overwhelming majority of New Zealanders who don\u2019t want organised crime and don\u2019t want armed organised criminals in their community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EBut here\u2019s the next thing: this is not only about gangs; it\u2019s also about guns. This Parliament, shamefully, with the exception of one member, I might add, rushed through knee-jerk legislation in the wake of our nation\u2019s tragedy in Christchurch, that would rate objectively as one of the least effective policies the Parliament has ever passed. Unfortunately, they banned a quarter of a million semi-automatic firearms, and they collected, in their so-called buy-back, around 60,000. So there\u2019s 180,000 still out there, and the gangs have openly said, \u201CWe will not be retuning ours.\u201D And it\u2019s difficult to believe that due to that Government\u2019s rushed, incoherent, knee-jerk response to a tragedy, a lot of those firearms that were banned but somehow didn\u2019t appear at the buy-back\u201475 percent of them, actually\u2014have ended up in the shootouts by gangs up and down this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019ve got a Government that is very poor at dealing with gangs, but also very poor at dealing with firearms policy. And I want to finish by suggesting a better way forward, which, funnily enough, Greg O\u2019Connor, the member for \u014Ch\u0101riu, actually suggested at the end of his speech. He said, \u201CWe need a. joined-up approach and we need to make sure that crime doesn\u2019t pay for gangs.\u201D So here\u2019s ACT\u2019s policy, and the Labour Party\u2019s welcome to it for free; we\u2019ve got so many ideas that we can actually afford to give good ideas to the Government for free\u2014that\u2019s how generous and filled with good ideas the ACT Party is. The National Party just announced a whole lot of ideas that they\u2019ve got from ACT, and we\u2019re prepared to do the same for Labour, because we\u2019re just great people like that. We should say if you\u2019re a gang member with an illegal firearm and you are found committing a third crime such as drug dealing, it\u2019s open season on your assets, because last year there was $50 million of asset seizures on $500 million of P, and if the tax rate is 10 percent, no wonder business is booming. We\u2019ve got to stop crime paying with a policy like that. This bill won\u2019t do it. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022 data-id=\u00223bf2b0d4eea7403f9d23729c758e3d69\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223bf2b0d4eea7403f9d23729c758e3d69\u0022\u003EIBRAHIM OMER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Can I first also add my voice to the voice of the Hon Chris Hipkins and acknowledge our cleaners. It\u2019s cleaners day today. It\u2019s a day to say thank you for the good work that they do not only in this Parliament but in this country. They are dignified people who do a dignified work for all of us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EI just want to start with gang culture and what\u2019s wrong with it. I don\u2019t think that in this House and beyond, anyone can deny the damage the gang culture can cause. The gang culture is damaging. It damages lives; it destroys lives. And this side of the House, this Government, rejects the idea that we allow gangs to destroy our communities. We have heard a lot about this Government being soft on crime, this Government being soft on gangs, but we reject this assertion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EThe reason why we\u2019re rejecting this bill\u2014we\u2019re not rejecting the principal idea of this bill, but this bill is flawed. This bill doesn\u2019t do what the Opposition says it does. This bill is flawed because its focus is very narrow. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EThis bill went through the Justice Committee and it was debated thoroughly and about 37 people submitted on it. I just want to highlight a few points that were fleshed out by submissions. Amnesty International, for example, said that this bill has only focused \u201Con gang membership and not organised crime or the most dangerous individuals more broadly\u201D. This bill also \u201Cmay exclude individuals who could be committing serious firearm offenses.\u201D Under this bill, the 15 March terrorist wouldn\u2019t be prohibited from owning a gun. So because of this and the many other issues in this bill, on this side of the House we\u2019re saying that we\u2019re opposing this bill today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EThis Government has invested a record amount of money in growing our police. Since we came into power, our police force has increased to 14,000. Sometimes introducing legislation and chasing people through legislation or checking people or entering houses is not always the solution. We\u2019ve got a police force that\u2019s very capable, that\u2019s well armed, that is fit to do their job and they are doing their job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EThe reality is that this Government has never not been active in targeting gangs and the criminal leaders and getting them out of the streets. I think the evidence itself speaks loudly. Since we came into power, our communities are safer because we\u2019re managing to put away a lot of criminals, and many of them are gang members. Yet this Government is being told that it\u2019s soft on criminals, it\u2019s soft on gangs\u2014something that we reject. This Government has seized about $500 million in cash assets from gangs. Any soft Government doesn\u2019t do this. Gangs and criminals, we don\u2019t deny that they\u2019re out there. We don\u2019t deny that they are causing damage, but we\u2019re also fighting them. We\u2019re cracking down on them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EAlso, fighting crimes should be multi-faceted. It shouldn\u2019t be just by introducing one piece of legislation that\u2019s narrowly focused. Actually, one of the problems with this bill is that it actually ignores if someone is not convicted they cannot be included in this. So even gang members who are not convicted of any crimes cannot be included in this bill. But we have an idea, like my colleague Emily Henderson said before. Within a few months we\u2019re going to introduce a bill that\u2019s comprehensive, that covers everyone, that covers everything, that takes away guns from anyone who poses a threat to our society, to our community. We can\u2019t just pick up one thing and say we\u2019ve got the solution. While we respect the member and the work that he put into this bill, this bill is not fit for purpose, so for that reason it\u2019s not going to be accepted. Since Operation Tauwhiro launched in February, 1,091 firearms have been seized along with $5.5 million in cash and 940 people have been put behind bars for offences related to firearms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EI think the member before mentioned that this Government has said that owing a gun is a privilege; it\u2019s not a right. That\u2019s true. Because of that, anyone that uses a gun in this country and poses a threat to our community, to our society\u2014we should have an ability to take the guns away from them. This Government is very clear that violent gangs and criminals don\u2019t have a place in our society and they cannot continue to threaten and intimidate and exploit our communities. I would reiterate that gangs destroy lives but we will not let them destroy our communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EWe therefore oppose this bill and we will introduce our own legislation properly to implement the firearms prohibition orders regime very soon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002284b9e33e24c74304acb41fc52e985251\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284b9e33e24c74304acb41fc52e985251\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This is a split call. I call Ian McKelvie.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022 data-id=\u002249e8e57fa3c54fde8615af14a5ba32f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002249e8e57fa3c54fde8615af14a5ba32f3\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. If there was ever a case for restricting speeches in member\u2019s bills to five minutes, today has clearly been a great example of that. Having listened to some of the speeches, it can only distress you to think that this is a member\u2019s day, where, effectively, members are entitled to bring bills to the House, and if they\u2019re lucky enough, they get it drawn. To then be shot down, criticised\u2014in fact, very unpleasantly criticised\u2014by members of the Government I think is a disgrace. I also think that to attack other parties over a bill like this is a disgrace, on a members\u2019 day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI will now get on to the bill. We\u2019ve got to go back in history a little bit to understand the genesis of this bill, and Chris Bishop touched on it earlier. I\u2019ve sat in this Parliament for some time now, and I\u2019ve sat on every gun inquiry and every gun select committee hearing there\u2019s been in my time in Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EThe 2017 inquiry into firearms in gangs\u2019 hands was mentioned earlier. One of the interesting things that came out of those recommendations\u2014well there was two interesting things, actually. One was that there was a lot of discussion about firearms and how they got into the hands of gangs, the ownership of them; and there was also quite a lot of discussion around firearms prohibition orders. The ironic thing of that was that one party opposed all that stuff as it came out of the select committee back to the Minister, who at the time was Paula Bennett\u2014that was New Zealand First, who then later supported this bill as it went back to the select committee. So there\u2019s irony everywhere you look on this thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EWe then get to the very unfortunate Christchurch shooting and the gun legislation that was put through the House by the Government as a result of that, where, effectively, we took guns from all the honest people in New Zealand, from collectors, enthusiasts, farmers, hunters, ex-servicemen and \u2013women and we left the guns with all the criminals in New Zealand. We made no attempt at that time to effectively buy those guns back. We offered them an amnesty\u2014well, no criminals are going to walk into the police station with a gun, are they? So that was never going to happen. We could have, however, offered them the opportunity to sell those guns back, because we paid everyone else for their guns except for those people who didn\u2019t have a licence. And so lots of these guns are held by people without firearms licences. Those guns are all still out in our community. And if you listen to the police estimates of the numbers of them, in excess of 200,000 of them still out in our community. I don\u2019t doubt for a minute that the police didn\u2019t understand how many guns the gangs held, so they weren\u2019t counted in those numbers that we\u2019ve dealt with. We then went into the second gun buy back, which was no more expensive and, in fact, cost more to run than they got, or paid out, in buy back for guns. So very fraught pieces of legislation have dealt with this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EWe now come to the piece of legislation that Simeon Brown has had drawn out of the ballot some time ago, actually. In fact, Brett Hudson was the first person to put this bill in the ballot, and he was the police spokesman in the last National Opposition. Prior to that, Chris Bishop, of course, had that same role. So both of them have had significant experience in dealing with firearms prohibition orders. The bill that Chris Bishop had drawn was thrown out, and back into the House it comes, it gets sent to the select committee and comes back with some recommendations, and I don\u2019t think any piece of legislation we ever put through this house is perfect, but at least it gave the Government and the police an opportunity to progress this bill in a manner that could have been some use.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003ENow, we\u2019ve had a whole lot of criticism about why it would be no use, why it wouldn\u2019t work\u2014all the excuses under the sun as to why it wouldn\u2019t work. But actually, a piece of legislation that goes through this House gets improved as it goes through a select committee process and gets improved again as it goes, sometimes, through the committee of the whole House, ends up as legislation. They are always implementable. Probably the worst example of one that wasn\u2019t was the Resource Management Act, actually. That\u2019s been a disaster right from the start. So it\u2019s easy to have a bill that doesn\u2019t work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EThis bill, in my view, would have worked, would have played a role in getting to a point where at least the police would have had a tool. And the really interesting thing for me was the speech of Greg O\u2019Connor, who spoke beautifully for 10 minutes on this\u2014well, actually, spoke about three minutes on the bill and seven minutes on other things. He never once mentioned his opposition to the bill, and he couldn\u2019t because he knew this bill had some merit to the police. So I\u2019m disappointed that the bill is clearly not going to pass, but\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bd23aaf0b8e48a79398090e4ddf13dd\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order, the member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8cafbac80cd407daa73ef1a4e53af04\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8cafbac80cd407daa73ef1a4e53af04\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Speaker. Thank you. I stand to take a call on the Arms (Firearms Prohibition Orders) Amendment Bill (No 2). As someone who has lived for many years in a community where there are gangs, and for someone who has spent many years in a community walking alongside wh\u0101nau, alongside young people, trying to ensure that they don\u2019t get drawn into the gangs, it\u2019s really interesting to read this piece of legislation and to talk on this this afternoon. Very much, as I have been listening around the House to some of the contributions, it\u2019s really got me thinking, because very much I want to be part of a Government\u2014I want to be part of a Parliament\u2014that is around empowering and protecting people. It is not just around waving a big stick, not just around putting more laws and regulations in place to punish people, but it\u2019s how do we empower people to choose a different way and a different lifestyle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ENow, I was really disappointed to hear the leader of the ACT Party speak. I felt like he took out of context when he talked about Operation Tauwhiro. He played on te reo M\u0101ori when he was speaking on this, because my understanding\u2014yeah, it\u2019s very much the word means, and correct me if I\u2019m wrong, to tend, to care for, absolutely, which is really, really important. But it\u2019s also a word that can be used as \u201Csocial worker\u201D. As a noun, it\u2019s a social worker, tauwhiro, I believe. So to say that this is some kind of namby-pamby care and love and just mucking around with the gangs isn\u2019t true. This is around social work. This is around actually leaning in, engaging, and finding real life solutions when it comes to gangs, when it comes to guns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI know in my community what I\u2019ve seen with young people who have chosen the path, sadly, of engaging and\u2014I find it hard to say, but\u2014maybe finding their tribe, what seems to be their tribe, and where they\u2019re accepted. It\u2019s looking at ways that we can actually support, care, nurture, be social workers where they don\u2019t become engaged with gangs, with guns, with violence, and those type of things. I was really pleased as I looked into Operation Tauwhiro and saw that it was focused on harm protection. It was also enforcement, but it was around that harm protection. Since the operation was launched just this year, in February, I see that they\u2019ve seized, along with $5.5 million worth of cash, 1,991 firearms. Nine hundred and forty people have been arrested in relation to firearms offences. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EAn initiative like this with our police force is something that\u2019s far more engaging and, hopefully, will ensure that gangs lose their steam, lose their power, and that guns\u2014I guess everyone in this House would dream that one day we don\u2019t have to have this conversation about guns because that is not something that we have within our communities. Sadly, we do, and, sadly, we have to look at ways to improve this. So I\u2019m glad to see that, as I was reading through the bill and curious around the conversation that must have been had in the select committee, the conversations that must have been had as this legislation was worked through, the majority did not support the passing of this bill. But we here on this side of the Government are obviously looking at firearms prohibition orders that we\u2019re working on that provide an extra tool for police to keep firearms out of the hands of our criminals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ESo for me, I won\u2019t be supporting this piece of legislation this afternoon. I appreciate the fact that the member Simeon Brown has put work in, and I just say let\u2019s work together around how we can actually\u2014things like Operation Tauwhiro, how we can actually, yeah, work with our gangs, not collude but work with them, to find solutions as social workers within our communities, as people who want the best for our tamariki, want the best for our rangatahi, and want to ensure that firearms are kept out of the hands of our gangs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022 data-id=\u0022b11ab4f6b9e14f0e830947574d9142b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b11ab4f6b9e14f0e830947574d9142b5\u0022\u003EDr LIZ CRAIG (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. While I didn\u2019t sit on the select committee that heard this bill, the Arms (Firearms Prohibition Orders) Amendment Bill (No 2), I really appreciate the importance of stopping firearms falling into the hands of the wrong people. Because I think, if you look at the statistics, every month, police are called to 200 crimes where a firearm is involved, and every year one in five front-line officers is confronted by a firearm, and every year between 800 and 1,000 firearms are stolen, and they potentially end up on the black market and potentially in the hands of criminals. And so I think it\u2019s really important to be thinking about what we can do in this area, and certainly in Invercargill what we are seeing is, just in the media, increasing reports of gun-related incidents and injuries. And also, if you look at the stats, the Far South has one of the highest rates in the country of illegal gun seizures across New Zealand. So it is an important issue, but I think my concern is that I\u2019m not sure that this bill will actually achieve what it\u2019s setting out to do, which is preventing the most dangerous gang members accessing firearms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EI think whenever I go and have a look at a bill that I\u2019ve been asked to speak on, where I haven\u2019t actually sat and heard the submissions, the first place I always go to is the select committee report, and when I went and had a look at the select committee report for this bill, I think there were two things that particularly stood out for me. One of the first ones was that, basically, the majority of the committee members didn\u2019t actually recommend that the bill be passed. And, if you couple that with looking at the number of submitters there, 36 submitters made written submissions and, of those, the majority, again, didn\u2019t support the bill. So 26 out of 34 didn\u2019t support the bill and raised a number of concerns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s just one of the aspects, but the other thing that stood out to me was just the huge amount of amendments\u2014so, looking through the actual text of the report, it was just a whole lot of comments about \u201CThis bit no longer applies because it\u2019s covered elsewhere\u201D, \u201CShift this to somewhere else\u201D, \u201CAmend it\u201D\u2014and, then you actually looked at the bill itself, the huge number of deletions and then extra information that had been introduced. And so, for me, thinking it through, this is a really important area, but looking at the huge number of changes that have been made didn\u2019t inspire confidence in me that this bill would be actually doing what it was setting out to do. And so I think, in contrast, what the Government has already said is that we\u2019ve got an ambitious firearms reform programme, and we want to go on and address this issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EAs other members in the House have mentioned, we will be introducing firearms prohibition orders, and what they\u2019ll do is they will make it illegal for high-risk people to own firearms, because, again, we are really\u2014it\u2019s a priority to strengthen our action to combat the influence of gangs and organised crime on our communities. So this is where we\u2019ve already got work under way. But I think what we\u2019ve said is that we will be introducing this legislation by the end of the year, but, as other colleagues have raised, the issue with the current bill that\u2019s before the House at the moment is it just doesn\u2019t have that broad coverage that we think we would need. But our bill, the bill the Government would be introducing, wouldn\u2019t just cover gangs; it would also cover a whole range of other offences and issues that would pose a threat to the community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003ESo I think looking at what\u2019s been left out of the bill and what we would be including is those who have had serious firearms offences, serious violence offences, participation in organised crime, criminal groups\u2014so some of the aspects covered by this bill\u2014but also terrorism-related offences, because I think the issue we\u2019ve got is, if we\u2019re only focusing on one aspect, which this bill does around gangs, the problem is that then you may have to come back if you want to then introduce other aspects that may relate to people who are then convicted under terrorism legislation or other aspects. And it would be much better if you can actually start that and do it comprehensively from the outset, rather than focusing on just one aspect, which is what this bill does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EAnd I think the other thing that we need to be thinking about is how a bill in this area would actually fit in with the wider comprehensive approach that the Government has already got under way, because already we\u2019ve done a lot of work in this area. We\u2019ve banned military-style semiautomatic weapons, and that\u2019s actually taken 60,000 prohibited firearms out of circulation, and that\u2019s a huge number of firearms that could end up in the hands of gangs. So I think these are aspects that are not covered in this bill. And also we\u2019ve implemented harsher penalties for gun crime and a tougher licensing system, which means that we can actually make sure that the guns don\u2019t fall into the wrong hands. But I think the other thing is looking at what\u2019s already covered by some of the legislation, because we\u2019ve also strengthened the rules around determining who\u2019s fit and proper for possessing firearms and who could be disqualified for holding a firearm. And already what we\u2019ve got is affiliation with a criminal group is listed as making somebody ineligible for a firearms licence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003ESo just going into a little bit more of the detail of that in the current legislation, which is already covered, a member of the police may find a person not a fit and proper person to be in possession of a firearm or an air gun if they\u2019re satisfied\u2014and then they list the criteria, and there\u2019s a whole range of criteria there: so if they\u2019ve already been charged and convicted by an offence that\u2019s punishable by a term of imprisonment; had protection orders made under the family violence or domestic violence Act; and, particularly with reference to this bill, if a person is a member or has close affiliation with a gang or organised crime group. So there are aspects that have already been strengthened in the wider framework that the Government has put in place in this area, and I think the other thing is that there\u2019s been a lot of discussion around the current Government\u2019s approach to gangs and organised crime, but just again emphasising the huge amount of investment that has gone into getting more police on the ground and, basically, having those police being able to look at and focus on organised crime, with 700 officers to be focused on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003ESo, moving forward, there\u2019s been a big impact, and I come back about those stats I was quoting about the southern region having one of the most high rates of illegal gun seizure, and the impacts of Operation Tauwhiro, because, as it was launched in February, and since then we have had a huge number of firearms seized\u2014so over 1,000 firearms have been seized as a result of that increased extra focus in that area. Over $5.5 million in cash assets has been seized, and 940 people have been arrested in relation to firearms offences. And just looking at some of our local media reporting, I think the comment was that that was why we were seeing those seizures of firearms down in the south, in those numbers, is because there\u2019s been a real focus there on what\u2019s happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003ESo I think, just summing up, the issue is that we have actually as a Government got an ambitious firearms reform programme and that\u2019s aimed at making sure, and will make sure, that firearms don\u2019t get into the wrong hands. And we\u2019ve already announced that we\u2019ll be introducing firearms prohibition orders and that we\u2019ll be introducing the legislation later in the year to address that. But what we talked about is the fact that we need that time to, basically, do a more comprehensive approach which looks at the broader range of offences that may well be included, as my colleague alluded to, and some of the submitters pointed out the fact that offences under terrorism Acts would not be included in the current bill. We need to think about that. But I think also, as my other colleague, Duncan Webb, was talking about, there\u2019s then the issues in terms of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act\u2014that those discussions need to be worked through and we have to have the time to do that in a proper way. The sense, again, is that there just wasn\u2019t the time or the ability to have that properly addressed in the context of this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EAnd so I think, basically, this is a really important area, and I just think of the impact that the work already done in my own community of Invercargill, with the fact that we have had large numbers of firearms seized and the impact that that has in terms of the number of guns in the community, but I\u2019m also thinking too that we need that broader approach that covers off all those areas that might need to be covered\u2014that thinks of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act implications and the nuances there, and just makes sure that we\u2019ve got the time to do that comprehensive approach. So, from my perspective, I think, just summing up, firearms ownership is a privilege rather than a right, but I also think that this bill that\u2019s before the House at the moment doesn\u2019t have the ability to take steps in the right direction. And so I unfortunately am unable to support this bill today. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6d51c81c3014e25afd94cb7b367bebb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6d51c81c3014e25afd94cb7b367bebb\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (National):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party thinks gang members should not have guns. It\u2019s a pretty simple position, but it\u2019s one that members opposite are finding very troubling and very complex and very difficult. Well, we stand on this side of the House in proud support of Simeon Brown\u2019s bill that would prevent the most dangerous gang members in New Zealand from accessing firearms, and that is a really simple position to take, because it\u2019s our view that we should prevent gang members from using guns to harm other New Zealanders. But members opposite\u2014they seem to take a different view. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EI want to congratulate Simeon Brown, the member for Pakuranga, for bringing this bill to Parliament. It is a necessary piece of legislation. It is something that has been held up for many years by this Government, despite a strong recommendation in 2017 that something like this needed to happen, and Simeon Brown has been tenacious in his advocacy for it. Unlike members opposite, he has not bowed down and cowered to gang members, despite facing death threats from them. He has said no. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EGangs seek to perpetuate violence and to harm other New Zealanders, and we in the National Party won\u2019t stand for it, because we stand for safe communities and we stand for upholding law and order. We actually also stand for the police having the tools they need to do their job, having the tools they need to enforce the law, and what this bill provides is an extra tool for the police by giving the Commissioner of Police the power to issue a firearms prohibition order against any gang member who in the past 10 years has been convicted of a serious violence offence. That is a tool that the police deserve and that they need to crack down on some of our community\u2019s worst offenders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ENow, I just want to talk briefly about what gangs are, because there\u2019s been a very philosophical discussion on the other side of the House about the virtues of gangs, and I want to remind people listening\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224de9f81ce05841eeb31f4ff622d4a8c8\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Nicola, that\u2019s not true. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228754d3ccd92c41dca5cfc004bf18c6ba\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, Ayesha Verrall says, \u201CNo, that\u2019s not true. We haven\u2019t spoken of the virtue of gangs.\u201D Well, she needs to go back and listen to Duncan Webb equating people in poverty with people in gangs, and saying that those are the conditions that lead to gang membership. Well, Duncan Webb should treat people in poverty with more respect, because just because you\u2019re poor, it doesn\u2019t mean you think you need to commit crime to get ahead. Actually, the vast majority of people in limited material circumstances don\u2019t resort to crime and meth dealing and rape and assault and murder in order to further their own material circumstances. That\u2019s actually what gangs do, and to equate that behaviour with poverty is wrong and we do not support it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EGangs are organisations that exist for the purpose of using criminal activity for material gain. They use weapons and violence to intimidate and harm other New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EI want to read to, particularly, the Labour Party members in the House tonight some headlines that really give you a sense of what gangs have been up to in our community lately. These are just headlines, by the way, from this year: \u201CBrutal Christchurch murder: Mongrel Mob associates jailed, one for life, after \u2018callous\u2019 fatal hammer and knife attack\u201D, \u201CPair become \u2018cold and ruthless killers\u2019 after involvement with the Mongrel Mob\u201D, \u201CThe day a Mongrel Mob member opened fire on a cop, hit a taxi driver and carjacked two vehicles\u201D, \u201CGuns, bombs and ammo found at gang pad \u2018for protection\u2019\u00A0\u201D, \u201CPatched Mongrel Mob members arrested on meth charges in Hamilton\u201D, \u201CName suppression lifts for senior Waikato Mongrel Mob leader on drug charges\u201D\u2014and these are the people that members opposite want to cuddle up to and do a bit of \u201CKumbaya\u201D with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EWell, we don\u2019t want to do that on this side of the House. You would believe from the rhetoric opposite, and particularly, actually, I would say, from Julie Anne Genter, whose contribution was to say that those who speak out against gangs are dog-whistling and racist\u2014well, actually, what she needs to remember is that these people described in these headlines are criminals, and we do not support them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThe numbers of gang members, in fact, have increased more than 50 percent under Labour, so the cuddling up approach isn\u2019t working, is it? We\u2019re not seeing fewer of them; we are seeing more of them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EI want to turn now to what this bill does, because it does things that are very practical, very pragmatic, and very sensible. It allows police to issue a firearms prohibition order against any gang member who in the past 10 years has been convicted of a serious violence offence, an offence under the domestic violence Act, or a firearms offence. Pretty sensible\u2014I mean, why should someone who\u2019s done that be able to get access to a gun? It does this to ensure they don\u2019t get access to guns, it revokes firearms licences, and it also extends that power so that those who seek to become a gang member are also prevented from accessing guns. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EFor those who have had a firearms prohibition order served against them, it makes it a crime for them to access firearms or to visit places with guns. It also makes it an offence to knowingly supply someone with a gun, knowing that they have a firearms prohibition notice against them, and it provides the police with warrantless search powers so that they can practically enforce this law by searching for guns where they believe they are on premises where there\u2019s someone with a firearms prohibition order against them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ENow, I want to particularly acknowledge the contribution of the Police Association in making this a better piece of law. They submitted to the Justice Committee on this. They made recommendations particularly about these search powers, and Simeon Brown has been very careful to incorporate those amendments into this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EBut the members opposite, they would ignore the Police Association. They would ignore the people on the front line whose job it is to deal with these thugs. Well, National listens to them. We believe that they deserve the tools they need to do their job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EI just want to ask a couple of questions, one of which is: when members opposite talk about the fact that Labour really, truly, seriously wants to do something about this and that it\u2019s coming soon, when is soon? I know Kris Faafoi has a very wide definition of the word \u201Csoon\u201D. He uses it every time Erica Stanford asks a question about immigration\u2014\u201CSoon, soon.\u201D But I\u2019d be really interested to know what \u201Csoon\u201D means, given members opposite have been promising they would do something about this for years, including, most recently, the Minister of Police, Poto Williams, announcing in May that she would be doing something. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EWell, if members are so keen to do something, then what should happen is that they should adopt this bill that Simeon Brown has put forward in good faith. But, as my colleague the Hon Simon Bridges has said, the reason they won\u2019t do that\u2014the reason they\u2019re not interested\u2014is that they are putting politics ahead of the safety of our community and ahead of the needs of our police to have tools to enforce the law, and they are siding with the gangs rather than siding with the safety of New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ESo we oppose this bill. We believe that gangs\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228393e3383cc940b1900c2b5507f32b34\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: You oppose it\u2014what? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee8a6c0aa3e24cbaaa13749975387f9c\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014do no good in our communities, and we\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e96e6da51fd449c93517086b60219d6\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Hang on! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a65b9a6b65264dc695add8e19aa8af6b\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, OK. So the members opposite think gangs do good in communities. So was that the Mongrel Mob member who was jailed for the fatal hammer attack, or was that the one who opened fire on a cop, hit a taxi driver, and carjacked the vehicle? We don\u2019t think these are good things, and when people like that have access to guns, more harm can be done. So we don\u2019t want to see gangs being able to do that. That\u2019s why Simeon Brown has put forward this excellent piece of legislation, and it is my pleasure to support it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u002260d416a95ed046cfa13665acf24debc1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260d416a95ed046cfa13665acf24debc1\u0022\u003EGINNY ANDERSEN (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. Well, you know, it\u2019s been an interesting night tonight. If there\u2019s one thing after being on the Justice Committee is that Simeon Brown talks a big game. But the truth is that no one takes him that seriously. The truth is that this bill is similar; it talks a big game but it doesn\u2019t deliver.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EBefore I go into the deficiencies of this bill\u2014and I\u2019ve got a good table on the deficiencies of the bill, even though we had a good crack at fixing it up at select committee\u2014I\u2019ll sort of recap where the debate got out. In the first two speakers from the National Party, give them their credit, they came out, Simon Bridges like a firecracker, they actually had some formative argument. So between Simon Bridges and Chris Bishop the main element of their argument this evening was that this bill has taken too long\u2014it\u2019s taken too long. From Chris Bishop we got a potted history of FPOs\u2014or firearm prohibition orders\u2014and he went through the different iterations the bill had been through. My memory goes back just a wee bit further than Chris Bishop\u2019s. My memory goes back to 2008, when the National Government launched their Gang Action Plan. Back then, in 2008, lo and behold, firearm prohibition orders were in there too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EAlong with that there were some other really interesting stuff in that action plan. Also, in there was something called \u201Csummer night lights\u201D. I remember that, I think it was, Anne Tolley, who was the Minister of Police, went on a bit of a tiki tour around the world and visited countries that had gang problems like Los Angeles (LA) or Melbourne, to find out and do a bit of a stocktake on how we could address those problems here in New Zealand. My favourite was summer night lights. They went to LA and they saw that, you know, these bright and those big busy areas and dark parks, that\u2019s where all the drug and the gang stuff was going on. They said \u201CI know. We\u2019ll come back to New Zealand and we\u2019ll light up some places and do some festivals and stuff in the gang areas.\u201D So the problem is that they didn\u2019t figure out that if you go to Kait\u0101ia and put up some night lights, well, people can go 2 kilometres up the road and you\u2019re in a paddock. So it didn\u2019t work that well. It didn\u2019t work here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EBut part of that stocktake was actually the truth of where firearm prohibition orders started and that was from Victoria and Melbourne that it was initially modelled on. So we talked a big game about those but they weren\u2019t delivered on. At that time, you know, part of the reason why it got held up for nine years under the last National Government was that there were huge internal tensions within the National caucus regarding this very issue, firearm prohibition orders. I remember that absolute pearler that Paula Bennett came out with on The AM Show, where she declared that some people had fewer human rights than other people. I remember that quite clearly. I remember Bill English, he jumped in there quickly to fix that one up, and he clarified that Bennett\u2019s mistake was, in fact, not National Party policy, and he referenced\u2014he did actually acknowledge\u2014that New Zealand has a Human Rights Act and said that it was enshrined in New Zealand\u2019s law, whew.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo the truth is that National had nine years to pass firearm prohibition orders, which was policy under the last Government, and failed to do it. The main tenet of the argument tonight we are hearing from those members opposite is that we\u2019ve not done it in four. So I think it is important that we stress that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI could go on, but I think we\u2019ve got it. I think it\u2019s important that we get this right\u2014I think it\u2019s important. Those comments around what were really causing issues under the last Government, it\u2019s important we get it right here. That\u2019s what this Government is doing. We will get it right. That is why Simeon\u2019s bill doesn\u2019t do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EWe had a really good look at it at select committee. We had a whole range of measures that we attempted to fix it up. But the reality was that it was munted. It was too broken to actually fix. The main problem, with the bill, first of all, was that he forgot to include search powers in it. So that was kind of like, if you\u2019re going to look for a gun, you\u2019d want to look for some search powers to be able to do that in the first place, but unfortunately that wasn\u2019t included.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo once we\u2019d fixed up the part about referring to maybe search and surveillance or search powers, we got onto the next main problem, which is quite fundamental to the bill and that\u2019s why it is fundamentally flawed\u2014that it only covers gang members with convictions. This is a big problem. You want to make it wider than just gang members with convictions because in the criminal world you do have clean skins. I\u2019m sure Greg O\u2019Connor will give you a great story about clean skins because he\u2019s got many stories like that. So people without a criminal record that still work as operatives within the gang underworld is where a lot of your arms trade and illicit arms trade is happening. So from the very start you\u2019re excluding some of those individuals that you want to include.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIt would also exclude others, such as terrorists and other elements that we\u2019ve seen in New Zealand that have a big problem with arms. So we would want to create a firearm prohibition regime that covers all of those areas, and that\u2019s why this bill is fundamentally flawed. It needs to cover a broader range of offenders who pose a threat to our community, not just gang members. It\u2019s important to say that this Government has a wider work programme on gangs. Our plan is focused on addressing those underlying causes of crime, not taking a trip to LA to put some night lights up in Kait\u0101ia. Firearm prohibition orders form part of that plan. They form part of a wider group of measures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EAnother really important part to say where FPOs will work is about some legislation that\u2019s already been passed. This is a really important point. The Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Act introduces a new power to enable the seizure of assets of those associated with organised crime. So that\u2019s going to the real nut of where the money is and being able to target that. That\u2019s something that was, again, talked about by the previous National Government but never delivered upon. So by going for the cash, hitting them in the pocket, that has a far more significant impact upon long-term viable gang opportunities to make a criminal organisation viable, by making it easier for police to identify an object that has obviously been ascertained by illicit activities and being able to take that. That is where you\u2019re actually going to see real long-term impact on gang activities; it\u2019s financial.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EBut not to leave it there, the reality is that this Government has never been more active in targeting the gangs and criminal leaders, and getting them off the street. Let\u2019s look at what\u2019s been achieved in that four years. We\u2019ve seen $450 million invested in our police service since we came into office. That has translated into 700 extra police staff. Those are focusing on absolutely looking at organised crime. As a result, we\u2019ve seen a total workforce of the police to 14,000. That\u2019s a significant increase of extra officers. Over 1,200 additional constabulary and authorised officers have been deployed on the streets since we came into office. Yes, we have seen $500 million in cash and assets that has been taken off our streets. If you want to translate that into how it\u2019s done often in police is that\u2019s the equivalent of $1.6 billion removed from the illicit economy, an economy that this Government is focused on shutting down. It will be doing that in far more broad sweeping and targeted ways than simply proposing to introduce a short stopgap measure like this bill does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESince coming into Government this Government has seen operations like Operation Tauwhiro, which has been so successful with over $5.5 million in cash and assets and 940 people arrested. Also, it was so successful that it\u2019s been extended for another six months. These are real efforts to target a complex problem, which is organised criminal groups that operate in New Zealand. This is not a simple problem that will be fixed overnight. This is most definitely not a problem that will be resolved by a short-stop measure such as this member\u2019s bill that limits firearm prohibition orders to such a narrow group that it has limited scope to have real impact on the problem. We are focused on making sure New Zealand communities are safe. We will not let gangs destroy our communities. We will do that in a way that targets the underlying drivers of crime in New Zealand. There will be a bill in this House that has firearm prohibition orders, and we will do it properly. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c9e936cec3864e74ba855d89d1fc7680\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Arms (Firearms Prohibition Orders) Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori\u00A02.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221d869943f8ef442182127503fc74a277\u0022\u003EFreedom Camping (Infringement Offences and Other Matters) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f0ff0e5b882a44349681465f722da4a7\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000433\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 22 September.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00227d0167acca424e5d88fa23be90cb872c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d0167acca424e5d88fa23be90cb872c\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, when the House was last considering this bill we\u2019d just completed call No. 8, so it\u2019s call No. 9. I understand the member for Rongotai will seek the call\u2014Paul Eagle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022 data-id=\u002255f94840ce0c4a909211e365978d5f4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255f94840ce0c4a909211e365978d5f4f\u0022\u003EPAUL EAGLE (Labour\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker, and what a pleasure it is to talk on the Freedom Camping (Infringement Offences and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. Look, the member who put this forward will know by now that we are opposing this bill\u2014and for good reasons\u2014and so we recapping on those just to bring you back into the fray after a short break. But really, I want to just step back and just look at the situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003EI know pre-COVID, certainly, there was a real dynamic around how we as a country manage freedom campers. They\u2019d sort of got control of how they wanted to do things in their way, and no matter what part of New Zealand you were from, it talks about some of the more dominant areas in the South Island, for example, West Coast, Tasman, Christchurch, and, of course, Queenstown, Southland where those areas were just overrun. There was bad behaviour. It didn\u2019t seem that local government had the tools and the know-how to sort things out. Vehicles from hire companies also weren\u2019t equipped definitely with things like toilets and other sanitary conditions, and the good nature and conservation of New Zealand took care of that. Well, we all know what the locals said about that when they found suddenly their pristine coastlines and backyards were used as toilet blocks, etc. etc.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003ESo the issue here is that whilst the direction is fully endorsed around this bill, the Government is intending to introduce its own legislation. And before you say \u201CHurry up, let\u2019s get going.\u201D, I was privileged enough to join the then Minister of Tourism, that was the Hon Kelvin Davis. He was part of a working group, a good one, too. It\u2019s always hard to get local government and tourism authorities into a room. And then we had a very good conversation and I just happened to be with him for another project\u2014he\u2019s a busy Minister\u2014so he said, \u201CCome along.\u201D and at that I learnt a few things. I learnt there that actually a lot of what\u2019s being thought of, I think that on this side of the House we will do it a whole lot better. Plus, we\u2019ll have the full round of consultation, which has been done. I know that the Minister\u2019s intending to do further work with the COVID lens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb419ab1f90341ce90eee1d8acdc71b8\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CNashy\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d8e116aa2fc4cc298d274eb5cad56ca\u0022\u003EPAUL EAGLE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that\u2019s the member for Napier, the Hon Stuart Nash. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003EBut I was looking at the advances that have been made just in recent times and even the freedomcamping.org app or the website that all of you can have a look at and just quickly punch in, that is significantly more advanced than when this was first talked about. And so I want to thank the then Minister, the Hon Kelvin Davis, for actually looking at that data and technology pilot that provided some of that real-time information. Too often, we ignore what people say. Tourists, both domestic and international, said they wanted to know what spaces were free to ensure that they could go somewhere and do it right. They wanted to do the right thing, and this was the best thing about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003ETourism New Zealand came on board with education campaigns, and I notice just at the bottom of that website you can see the Tourism Industry Aotearoa and the Tourism Industry New Zealand Trust. So that partnered up like they said they would. They took the problem with both hands and said, \u201CWe believe with this technology we can actually do things better. There was also talk about that free access to the self-contained vehicle standard, saving users money\u2014and so a lot of what\u2019s being proposed here. I know that the member will be thinking that\u2019s not enough, but I know with the work that\u2019s been done already, actually stuff has been delivered and it\u2019s not the sort of thing that\u2019s got a lot of rah-rah because most of us wouldn\u2019t be in that segment of society that is hiring campervans, touring the country. Some of you might be in there. If you are, therefore you\u2019ll know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003EThe other thing that the group said is \u201CWe need to know a bit more. We were caught short.\u201D, and I say that in terms of the tourism industry sector. They were caught short on saying, \u201CLook, the market just went out there.\u201D As I said, they put the vehicles in place but we needed the data to say, \u201CHow do we make it a better experience for everyone?\u201D So the direction gets a tick but we oppose this bill. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00220985a4ccd23a4d4eb32195a34f328163\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220985a4ccd23a4d4eb32195a34f328163\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, it\u2019s come time for me to leave the Chair for the dinner break. The House will return and I will return to the Chair at 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00224dfd7c9dc2ec4ec5b3dee9e0cb62682f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224dfd7c9dc2ec4ec5b3dee9e0cb62682f\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Ka te r\u0101, t\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa. The House is resumed. Members, before the dinner break, we were debating the Freedom Camping (Infringement Offences and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. Mr Eagle had just finished the call\u2014and, I believe, Ginny Andersen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u00220351b43d5d3343b0938b8db42cfcbc7b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220351b43d5d3343b0938b8db42cfcbc7b\u0022\u003EGINNY ANDERSEN (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s great to be able to speak on the Freedom Camping (Infringement Offences and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. I have been asked to get as many puns as possible into this debate, but I will refrain, because we all know it\u2019s wrong to take a dump on mother Nature, and we all agree on that. We are on the same page. So I will refrain from further juvenile references.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThis bill amends the Freedom Camping Act 2011 to introduce stricter requirements around where freedom camping can take place. I always think of those signs I used to see as a kid where you\u2019d travel around and they\u2019d have a picture with \u201CNo dumping\u201D written on it, and they would say it quite clearly, but I\u2019m pretty sure they were referring to rubbish. But the same thing goes. You know, New Zealand has got a beautiful environment. It\u2019s a gem. We should really respect Papat\u016B\u0101nuku the way that she deserves to be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI think the Minister responsible in this area has not minced his words one iota in the past when being asked publicly about his position regarding how our tourists who come to New Zealand treat the natural environment. So I think that while we\u2019re pleased that the National Party endorses the general direction of where we\u2019re heading on this issue, we still will, in fact, oppose this bill because we intend to introduce our own legislation and to do that in a way that improves the sustainability and cracks down on freedom camping in those areas, particularly where we know that they have been poorly behaved. There are certain hot spots across New Zealand where we know that there is loo paper and general rubbish associated with the known dumping turning up again and again and again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo we know that it annoys the local people. We know that it degrades our natural environment, and, furthermore, it\u2019s not necessarily the most productive way we can use New Zealand\u2019s assets as a tourist destination. I think that, you know, one of the things we\u2019ve seen through COVID is that while we have had to take a reset and had to shut our borders, this also provides a golden opportunity to try and do things better than what we\u2019ve done before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo what we\u2019ve done already, the legislation that the Government will introduce will build on the Government\u2019s earlier work to make freedom camping more sustainable. Some of that earlier work is establishing the Responsible Camping Working Group. I think there was an additional $25 million in 2008 to specifically identify more sustainable ways. As part of that, too, we\u2019ve seen the introduction of a data technology pilot that has provided real-time information on the capacity of selected campsites to see where those strains in the existing system are and how we can mitigate risks in terms of camping grounds not having sufficient capacity to take tourists who are coming and hiring a campervan or a Jucy rental or one of those vans you see travelling around. Also providing free access to self-contained vehicles and saving users around $70 each to allow people to see what\u2019s required for certification. We know that\u2019s an important factor, if our vehicles are equipped to be self-contained.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EBut in addition to this, there\u2019s also been commissioning of research, and that research is to better understand what we\u2019re actually dealing with here. The profile, the value of visitors, both from domestic tourism and potential international tourists who go freedom camping throughout the summer. So we want to know exactly the profile we\u2019re looking at in order to modify our system to best cope and to change, to dissuade those who are unable to treat the environment with the respect that it deserves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThis member does not have the appropriate bill and therefore we will not be supporting it further. It proposes measures that won\u2019t address the real nub of the problem and it would give enforcement officers powers to inspect vehicles. We think more of a long-term approach that maximises tourist value in New Zealand is a far more beneficial way of addressing these issues. Therefore, I do not commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00223488be374d1f45b0bceb4f49bdcffb77\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223488be374d1f45b0bceb4f49bdcffb77\u0022\u003EMAUREEN PUGH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019ve suffered my way through some of the presentations on this bill, being introduced several weeks ago, and it\u2019s just come back for the end of its first and probably final reading, I gather. And I\u2019ve heard nothing from the other side that actually made any sense at all or defended their position to oppose this bill. It\u2019s innocuous; it\u2019s such a simple solution. And even if the Minister did have plans to do something quite spectacular, which I very much doubt, because they\u2019re not usually likely to produce anything spectacular, but it simply clarifies the situation for the Act that\u2019s already in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003ENow, the Act originally\u2014and it\u2019s 10 years old now, so it was time it was modified. But over those 10 years there has been some glaring gaps in the rules around freedom camping. And the biggest one, of course, is proximity to a toilet. So this bill simply gives a distance from a toilet facility unless you are fully self-contained. So it clarifies that. And it also captures\u2014and this is one of the glaring gaps in the original legislation\u2014New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA) land and Land Information New Zealand (LINZ) land. So for areas that have the ribbon of State highway that runs through them, councils were unable to police those areas for freedom camping because the legislation didn\u2019t allow for it. It also allows for the infringement notices to be revoked and handed on to the hirer of a vehicle, so that tidied up people who would exit the country without paying any infringements. It also allowed for LINZ and NZTA to provide or appoint their own enforcement officers and, as the member who sat down just said, to inspect whether a vehicle is fully self-contained, because quite often people use the defence that they have a bucket with a lid on it, and that is their full self-containment. This bill would have made it clear that that no longer is a good argument.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EBut I\u2019m always amazed when this Government stands up to kick a really good piece of legislation to touch, because they always fall back on the fact that they know best, that only they can do things better, and we\u2019ve been hearing it all day: \u201CWe don\u2019t want to have a look at any of the legislation that\u2019s coming forward from an Opposition party\u201D, because they\u2019re going to do it themselves, they\u2019re going to do it better, and they\u2019re always going to do it soon. Soon they\u2019re going to announce lockdown measures, they\u2019re soon going to announce their firearms legislation, they\u2019re soon going to tell us what the education system is going to look like when we start coming out of lockdown. Soon we\u2019re going to know, but we\u2019ve got to wait for the pulpit of truth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EBut anyway, as I said, this bill is not going to see the light of day. And the shame of it is that it was so looked forward to by the 140,000 members of the NZMCA\u2014the New Zealand Motor Caravan Association\u2014and even by Federated Farmers, whose rural membership would have dearly loved to have had this issue tidied up, because it does need tidying up. And if anyone who lives in the country\u2014and I\u2019m sure some of my colleagues here understand exactly what I\u2019m talking about: when you live in the country and you see what a mess is left behind from freedom campers, you know the situation is urgent. And wouldn\u2019t it be nice that when we open up the borders\u2014once National\u2019s opening up plan is introduced, which it gradually is, by the way. Has anyone noticed that? I think we\u2019re up to the fifth point of National\u2019s plan being adopted by the Government by stealth. And won\u2019t it be great to have everything in place, ready for our visitors to come back into this country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003ENow, I remember the Minister saying he was consulting widely. This bill has been around for 10 years. We\u2019ve been hearing the feedback for 10 years. I doubt in the roadshows that he\u2019s conducted over the past six months or a year\u2014whatever it\u2019s been\u2014that he has heard anything new. The situation is really clear, the feedback has been really blunt, and if anyone wasn\u2019t aware of it before today, they\u2019ve had their feet on the desk, they\u2019re asleep at the wheel, and have no idea about what\u2019s going on in the real world. I\u2019m really sad that this bill won\u2019t be seeing the light of day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d427af8df9454ccc82d3582285e0a473\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Freedom Camping (Infringement Offences and Other Matters) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 45\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221590c2090f0a4de0848ce5151f2827cf\u0022\u003ECrimes (Child Exploitation Offences) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b0ca2f0398f54dadac90f752b50651e8\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u002219cffe69c42e4d248fedc1c1e5a31403\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219cffe69c42e4d248fedc1c1e5a31403\u0022\u003EGINNY ANDERSEN (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Crimes (Child Exploitation Offences) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Justice Committee to consider the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EAt its heart, this bill is about protecting our children from online harm. In any given week, New Zealand children and young people will spend more time online than they may well do with their mum, dad, or primary caregiver. So as the internet and its many, many platforms have become more prevalent in our lives, so have the dangers that are associated directly with it. Labour are committed to child wellbeing, and this includes protecting our children from harm. Online spaces are increasingly becoming an area where this harm can occur, and the law sometimes struggles to keep up with rapidly evolving technology and different platforms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EAs online platforms become more popular with young people and it becomes harder for us as parents to monitor everything our kids are doing online, the opportunity for people to cause harm to our kids through the internet increases. The days of being taught about \u201Cstranger danger\u201D and being careful when walking home from school have now changed to include the internet and the need to keep our children as safe as possible when they are online.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ENetsafe and the Ministry for Women conducted a survey recently. In particular\u2014they did this in partnership\u2014they looked into the experiences of New Zealand teenagers, with online risk and harm in mind. The survey found that seven\u2014seven\u2014in 10 New Zealand teenagers have experienced at least one type of unwanted digital communication within the past year. It also found that nearly 19 percent of those teenagers surveyed experienced an unwanted digital communication that had a negative impact upon their daily activities. That 19 percent surveyed had been also asked for a nude or nearly nude image of themselves to be shared.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EWhen we heard the submissions on Louisa Wall\u2019s bill on stopping harmful digital communications, it really struck me the number of frank and fearless accounts we heard from young people whose lives had been really torn apart by the unwitting sharing of images of themselves where they were nude or nearly nude, and how that had played out not only to affect their own mental health but also their own confidence and even potential of securing a place of employment in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThis increasing trend is something that, as parents, we should take notice of, and, as lawmakers, these issues are something that we can respond to as well. This bill is designed to help to ensure that our justice system can respond appropriately to protect our young people from those who engage in acts online to harm people, and to harm young people in particular. It is based upon similar legislation that has been passed in Australia. The law in Australia was known as Carly\u2019s Law; it was named after Carly as the result of the efforts of her mum\u2014whose name is Sonya Ryan, an Adelaide mother\u2014who campaigned for over a decade after her 15-year-old daughter was murdered after an online predator posed as a teenage boy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe creation and enactment of Carly\u2019s Law enabled enforcement agencies to take action against online predators before they have the opportunity to act. Making this addition to New Zealand\u2019s law builds upon the existing offence of online grooming that was introduced by Labour back in 2005. When this law was passed it was noted, when I looked back on the speeches at the time, that those who offend against children are often habitual repeat offenders. This bill enables police to intervene earlier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EA recent case that we\u2019ve seen in New Zealand, in a Hamilton instance, saw a school teacher who had messaged a student approximately 1,600 times, but, due to the difficulty in prosecuting or proving, it was difficult. Even in the judgment, it\u2019s interesting to see comments around police\u2019s actions. There is a requirement in that 2005 offence to have an element of sexual nature to the comments, and so, without that there, prosecution is made more difficult, even when proving intent may be able to be done. So the bill proposes to make a change to the Crimes Act 1961, and it adds two new offences designed to protect young people from online harm, and to increase the penalty for meeting a young person following sexual grooming.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe first offence inserted by the bill is digital communication for a person under 16 with intent to mislead, and it means that someone who is 18 years or older or who digitally communicates with someone who is under 16 with the intent to mislead them about their age or identity and then meets or arranges to meet with this young person, can now be imprisoned. Existing law provides that there is a requirement for sexual reference in communication, as previously mentioned, and this has made prosecution difficult in the past. This change sends a clear message that an adult impersonating a child with the intention of meeting someone is unacceptable in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe second offence inserted by the bill is \u201CDigital communication with young person under 16 with intent to cause harm.\u201D This new offence means that someone who is 18 years or older can be imprisoned if they digitally communicate with someone under the age of 16 while deliberately intending to cause harm to the young person or are reckless as to whether the young person is harmed. This change, as stated, will help police protect young people from others who set out via the internet to communicate with them in order to cause harm. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIn both of these new offences, the change is specifically designed to assist police in doing their jobs. So the two new offences are both applicable in cases where the young person in question is, in fact, a police officer in an undercover or sting operation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EFinally, the bill increases the potential maximum sentence for an offence under section 131B of the Crimes Act, \u201CMeeting a young person following sexual grooming, etc\u201D. There is debate around penalties, and that is a debate that goes on. Look, I have some reservations, to be frank, regarding just outrightly increasing penalties, and I think that while offences against children and young people are serious and should carry serious penalties, I would like to hear comments\u2014particularly from members of the public\u2014at the next stage, at select committee, and also the advice from officials in relation to the proposals that have been made at this first reading stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESpecifically criminalising this activity is part of the response to the problem, but I do want to note, for the record, that equally important is education to ensure that parents and caregivers, as well as children, are aware of the risks and aware of the steps that they can take to keep safe. That is why this bill builds upon the good work that this Government has been doing in this space, including great initiatives like funding the hugely popular Keep it Real Online campaign. The honourable Minister Jan Tinetti has done a fantastic job at championing that campaign so that not only young people but also their parents and caregivers are aware of those risks, and our legislative change that was debated just last night, in terms of films, videos, publications\u2014these changes are helping to keep New Zealanders safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ETo sum up, I know that many parents are concerned about who their children are talking to online. This bill provides further protection for our kids under New Zealand law and sends a very clear message that an adult impersonating a child, with the intention of meeting someone, is unacceptable in New Zealand. I know that this is something that parents have called for, and I am pleased that this bill has the opportunity to be considered by the House and also by the Justice Committee. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9af43e14ad940fd93a7124fe4d8b23c\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0fe7efc2c16419ea8a3c9ee215b54ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0fe7efc2c16419ea8a3c9ee215b54ce\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E As a parent of young children, I really worry about the online world, and I\u2019m sure that I\u2019m far from alone. I\u2019m sure that the kind of concerns that I have will be ones that, actually, the vast majority of parents in the modern world\u2014with computers and all manner of devices\u2014also have. We in our household, look, we try and limit screen time, but boy oh boy do the boys love their iPads and YouTube, and various other things they can access online. There\u2019s a couple of issues, aren\u2019t there? There\u2019s the time they spend online and how much is appropriate and right for them there, and then there\u2019s also the content that they\u2019re accessing. The reality is that, in terms of that time, the evidence about what a lot of time online does for children and young people isn\u2019t necessarily decisive\u2014you\u2019ll find that there\u2019s multiple studies. I note Sir Peter Gluckman and his organisation connected to the University of Auckland has recently done a report on this. But I feel, personally, as a parent, that it can\u2019t be entirely unproblematic. There has to be problems associated with a long time on devices, and it can\u2019t be an unalloyed good in terms of what it\u2019s doing to young brains, what it means for their attention span, their ability to concentrate on difficult, complex things at school and the like. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EThen, of course, there\u2019s also the issues not just in the time online, even if it\u2019s nice, worthy stuff that kids and young people are looking at, there\u2019s also the issue of the content that is being accessed. I would just note, in that regard, look there\u2019s all manner of examples around the world, The Wall Street Journal in the last month or so has run an investigative series on Facebook and the work Facebook is doing to have an Instagram for kids. And, somehow, my recollection is The Wall Street Journal came across secret documents, or not public documents, and they made it quite clear that the research of Facebook itself shows all the mental health problems and various other issues\u2014depression and esteem issues and harming and the like\u2014that go along with social media, and the peer pressure that\u2019s around that. People are saying that social media is the new tobacco, and if we could cast forward a few years, that may be so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EThen there\u2019s, of course, when we think about content, the issues around clearly inappropriate, harmful content for our young\u2014and I\u2019m thinking, of course, of pornography, I\u2019m thinking about extreme violence that can be accessed and, as the member in charge of this bill, Ginny Andersen, has said, \u201CLook, we\u2019re not monitoring our children and our teenagers 24/7.\u201D So this is a real issue, and it doesn\u2019t take much for a young one to\u2014left unmonitored\u2014find innocently enough they are on to harmful sites and the like that scare them and potentially scar them. So there are real worries about this whole area of online generally. And I, for one, want to protect my kids. I\u2019m sure other parents want to protect theirs as long as we possibly can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EThat brings me to this bill, which addresses the issues of unwanted digital communications and child exploitation. Sadly\u2014in fact I\u2019d probably use a stronger word than \u201Csadly\u201D and say \u201Ctragically\u201D\u2014it\u2019s not uncommon for adults to try and contact children and young people online for bad purposes; and the purposes can include the procurement of graphic pictures through to the sexual grooming for actual sexual conduct that, again, the member has spoken of\u2014whose bill this is in the name of. I\u2019m sure the entire House stands as one in condemning such behaviour. This bill, if passed\u2014it seems to me\u2014would assist with adding criminal offences and criminal penalties for such terrible behaviour. I note what the member has said, \u201CIt\u2019s based on Australian law\u201D\u2014that\u2019s not always a bad thing and I\u2019m sure, actually, to some extent copying what they\u2019ve done is a good thing. I\u2019ll be interested to see, at select committee, the experience a little way in\u2014of Australia\u2014given they have a similar law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EAll of that means that National supports the intent of this bill. More than that, I think we support the substance of this bill. We\u2019re going to be interested to hear submissions on it and go through those. I would simply make this constructive\u2014I hope\u2014point at this very early stage and without having gone through it and thought about it deeply and how this bill would relate, if passed, to the various other criminal laws that are already on Parliament\u2019s books. I think, from a cursory glance at the offences that are created by this bill and the increased penalty in relation to offences against section 131B of, I think it\u2019s the Crimes Act 1961, is it? It could be, actually, that what\u2019s being done here should even go further. That the scope of what is in the bill isn\u2019t actually enough to cover the various forms of practices, purposes that adults may try and have and do and effect against children, young people. So I certainly record, actually, it may be this bill could\u2014within scope and without trying to do more than a member\u2019s bill appropriately should\u2014go further. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003ESo I think this is an area where all New Zealanders\u2014certainly parents\u2014will be worried about what happens online, and I\u2019ve tried to demonstrate there\u2019s a raft of things that can go wrong in this department. This area of it: adults seeking out children, our young ones, for harm purposes is one such. And a very important area, as the survey results from Netsafe and the Ministry for Women that the member in charge of the bill has laid out, made clear: this is not some marginal thing on the sidelines. Actually, it\u2019s a very real everyday issue, sadly, in New Zealand and around the West.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EGiven that, therefore National supports it at first reading. I\u2019m sure we\u2019ll actually support it all the way through, albeit we\u2019ll be interested in the submissions, interested in ways we can improve it and potentially actually increase the range of this bill to make sure that actually more harm is prevented against our children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022160fb7e9924945b4acbcfebff72429d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022160fb7e9924945b4acbcfebff72429d8\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te Mana Whakaw\u0101. Good to hear that we seem to have some consensus on this bill. Just a few points I\u2019d like to make in sending it off to select committee, really. The first is it\u2019s increasingly the case that there is an online world, and I mean that in a real sense, in the sense that there are young people in particular who live a life in the virtual world and have virtual relationships. That\u2019s something which people who, when they were born, the internet didn\u2019t exist and tapes were a pretty cool thing\u2014that\u2019s something which can be a little hard for us to comprehend. So I guess it\u2019s a real challenge for us to wrestle with the fact that what goes on in that virtual world, whatever it might be, whether it\u2019s across digital messaging or whether it\u2019s on a gaming platform or wherever it might be, is as real to those people as what happens in what we would call day-to-day life. It\u2019s against that background that we have to look at this bill, because relationships formed in that environment are extremely important and can be as rewarding or as damaging as any other relationship.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI do think it\u2019s worth recognising that whilst we paint the picture of a total stranger in some darkened room with a keyboard grooming these young people, it\u2019s equally as likely to be someone they\u2019ve actually met. The member Ginny Andersen mentioned the schoolteacher who already has an existing relationship and therefore has a degree of trust. So we have to be extremely cautious there that we don\u2019t simply presume that it\u2019s someone who\u2019s entirely unknown\u2014in fact, statistics would suggest that\u2019s not the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI guess there\u2019s a couple of points I would invite the select committee to look at. We absolutely accept that an adult grooming a child, communicating with a child, and arranging to meet a child is wrong, and we also accept that there\u2019s a role for the police to play in early intervention, in finding out who those people are. Given that they spend a lot of time and resources on intelligence, they often know who they should be looking for. My word of caution is this: that we want to be careful that we don\u2019t create behaviours in people that they wouldn\u2019t otherwise engage in\u2014what in, kind of, common parlance would be called \u201Centrapment\u201D\u2014that whilst a constable is entitled to engage in a conversation online with someone they think is engaging in risky and possibly illegal behaviour, we do not want them to initiate any inappropriate conduct or contact or in any way encourage it; it\u2019s for them to be a recipient. So I would ask the select committee to just have a look at that section, reflect on the problem of entrapment, of enticing behaviour that wouldn\u2019t otherwise occur, and make sure that there\u2019s no place for that, that the law properly controls that activity\u2014albeit, I\u2019m sure, when a police officer might engage in it, it\u2019s with good intent, but it\u2019s creating an offence where one wouldn\u2019t have existed but for the conduct, in fact, of the constable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe other point is just the reasonable steps to find out whether a young person\u2014there\u2019s a defence section, subsection (3) of new section 126A: taking reasonable steps to determine whether the other person was over the age of 16 years, and having reasonable grounds. Now, I just want to recognise that what is reasonable can be a shifting standard in some ways, and I\u2019d encourage that to be explored. That the behaviour we would expect of a 25-year-old or a 35-year-old is quite different from that we might expect of an 18-year-old. So that\u2019s something I would hope the select committee would look at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EOf course, the member has referred to the sentencing question. Again, I\u2019m always cautious of heavy sentences, and I see there\u2019s an increased sentence here from seven to 10 years. I think that\u2019s done on the basis of, kind of, equivalences or relativities within the different sections, trying to make sure that the most serious offence has the most serious penalty. Certainly, that\u2019s something that is worth looking at, but good to see this is going to select committee. An excellent improvement to our law\u2014I commend it to the House. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022c98de63723d24e509b6706d211f2a5ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c98de63723d24e509b6706d211f2a5ab\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise to take a call on behalf of the Green Party on the Crimes (Child Exploitation Offences) Amendment Bill in the name of Ginny Andersen. I want to congratulate her for bringing another, I would say, very valuable piece of legislation to this House, and I say that with a little bit of envy in terms of your luck of getting these bills pulled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EBut this is a really important conversation. It\u2019s about the safety of our children at the heart of it. I\u2019m very pleased that this Parliament is getting to spend time on that conversation. We know that Governments have previously been pretty slow to respond to digital harm, in particular, including online identity theft, revenge porn, online hate speech, racism, or extremism. We\u2019re slow to catch up. The legislation feels as if there are many moving parts, in terms of protections. So this piece of legislation is discrete, it is fixing a small part of it, and I look forward to the conversation in the select committee looking at how that fits in the whole picture and exploring the detail of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003ESo at the heart of this, it\u2019s about addressing online grooming. There\u2019s been a bit of discussion and a great speech from Ginny Andersen in introducing it. But I think it bears repeating that grooming really is when an adult tries to build a relationship with a young person so that they can sexually exploit them in some way. Doesn\u2019t always have to be physical, sometimes it is actually just that act of trying to get the nude or almost-nude photo or provocative position from a child that can be used, in terms of images or videos, in ways that there cannot be consent because of the age of the young person, who I will call, for the purposes of this discussion, a child, because legally, that is what we\u2019re talking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EQuite often when we picture the idea of grooming, I know I have a certain image that comes into my head of a person that\u2019s kind of got\u2014no disrespect to anybody in this House, but the image that comes to my head is, kind of, sparse grey hair, a certain type\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272646632b95c479c88d6394dafdc39fb\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, Stuart! She singled you out!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259df14b7b1884c82872b88203a0de246\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE\u003C/span\u003E: No disrespect. It\u2019s just like, there\u2019s an image, but the problem\u2014and my point is, that that\u2019s not the reality of people who engage in grooming. In actual fact, quite often the people who are engaging in grooming behaviour are not that much older than the children that they are targeting, yet, they are still taking advantage of a younger person. Netsafe gets a lot of complaints from young people seeking help for this issue\u2014and I\u2019ve just seen a member of the House put his hand over his hair and I just want to apologise for what my comments may have provoked. For any member in this House who feels that that was a description of them, it was not meant to be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThe current law criminalises grooming at the point where an offender arranges to meet a child with the intention of having sexual activity, whether or not the intended abuse occurs. This bill will update these offences to cover digital harm and grooming at the point where the offender arranges or meets up with the young person following online communications. There\u2019s specific details in the bill that I won\u2019t go into, but at the select committee, we\u2019re pleased to be able to interrogate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI do want to raise the concern around the increased penalties that do come with the bill, around imprisonment from seven to 10 years, because, actually, our system at the moment, at the heart we want people who cause sexual harm\u2014we want early intervention before harm occurs and we want rehabilitation. There\u2019s only a very, very tiny number of people who are not able to be rehabilitated. If we talk to the experts, they tell us it\u2019s a tiny group, and we want to make sure that they\u2019re held and protected; the rest we want to get help, and sadly our criminal justice system doesn\u2019t really provide that rehabilitation at the moment, and actually, it can cause more harm by isolating and marginalising people, actually undermining their positive attachments. So I really do think that that is a part of the bill that we would like to look at, to ensure that it\u2019s as strength-based as possible in protecting our kids.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9e1e22007b146d99f99010395e311e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9e1e22007b146d99f99010395e311e2\u0022\u003EIBRAHIM OMER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise to take a call on the Crimes (Child Exploitation Offences) Amendment Bill. I too would like to thank the member, Ginny Andersen, for bringing this important bill to the House, because it\u2019s an issue that needs attention and debate, and needs to be addressed. It is important because it\u2019s about children. Because, due to their age, vulnerability, and the fact that they can\u2019t defend themselves, that makes this bill very important\u2014and the fact that they can\u2019t tell right from wrong. Because of that, we all agree on this. No one can argue today: children spend more time online than anywhere else, more than the time that they spend with their families, and their parents, their siblings. Because of that, we often hear stories of predators grooming young children with the intention to harm them. The danger is real. Online spaces are where it\u2019s, increasingly, becoming an area where these harms occur.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EThis bill is an amendment to the Crimes Act 1961. It inserts two offences that are designed to protect young people from online harm and also increase the penalty for meeting young people for following sexual grooming. These two inserted offences are: new section 126A, \u201CDigital communication with young person under 16 with intent to mislead\u201D, and new section 126B, \u201CDigital communication with young person under 16 with intent to cause harm\u201D. This bill will help address some of the issues in this space and to protect children from online harm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EAs the popularity of online platforms increases, the incidence of harm, particularly towards young people, also increases. The study showed that about 19 percent of teens experience unwanted or unwarranted digital communication that had a negative impact on their lives. This is the most common. Also, 19 percent of young people surveyed said that they have been asked to share their nude photo or nude image of themselves. These are sobering numbers, and really, in fact, it\u2019s scary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EAll the changes that we are discussing today are designed to help ensure that our justice system can protect our young people from those who engage in acts online to harm them. This bill increases the potential sentence that a judge might give, at their discretion, for an offence against section 131B of the Crimes Act\u2014that meeting young people with intent to harm or with intent to sexually groom is an offence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003ELabour is committed to protecting children from these harms. I look forward to listening to what the public has to say in select committee. I\u2019m not a member of the Justice Committee, but I\u2019m looking forward to reading what the members or the public have to say. It\u2019s also heart-warming to see that we are all coming together in support of this bill, because it\u2019s such an important issue. An important issue because some of us don\u2019t even have any children, but we strongly feel about this. Like they said before, it\u2019s about our young people who can\u2019t defend themselves, who can\u2019t differentiate right from wrong. The Hon Simon Bridges, before me, made a comment that this is a national issue, it\u2019s also an issue in the West. In fact, this is a global issue. It\u2019s not exclusive to the West; it\u2019s everywhere. And, sadly, people who go around with the intention to harm young people are everywhere. They\u2019re just evil, and the evil is everywhere. Again, I\u2019d like to affirm that Labour is committed 100 percent to protecting our children. On that note, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022 data-id=\u00227093df0a8acd46d7b9adb1bcb72fc106\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227093df0a8acd46d7b9adb1bcb72fc106\u0022\u003ECHRIS BAILLIE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of ACT and in support of the Crimes (Child Exploitation Offences) Amendment Bill. I acknowledge the member for introducing this bill\u2014a bill that is well overdue. It\u2019s a bill that is necessary, as previous speakers have mentioned, and based on Australian legislation, brought about by the tragic case of Carly Ryan, a 15-year-old Australian girl. It is legislation New Zealand needs. Children as young as eight here are being groomed online, and young people not even in their teens pressured through social media and other avenues to provide inappropriate photos. They\u2019re often too naive or too young to understand that these photos just don\u2019t go away, and once sent can become viral on the international market. New ways are evolving with online games, smartphones, and websites designed just to appeal to children. New Zealand media indicates that during lockdowns these incidents rose, with more people preying online.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve been contacted by teachers and parents concerned about this scourge. It\u2019s become increasingly difficult for parents and schools to monitor online behaviour. The online safety tips, they are great advice, but if we look at a couple of them: number one, become friends with your child in any social network environment they create. And another one: ensure that you can always have access to your child\u2019s phone to help them stay safe. Very sensible recommendations but, as any parent would know, very difficult. And schools throughout the country are constantly battling with students and their devices. Technology is changing quickly and legislation must keep up. Police need the tools if they\u2019re going to prosecute. As a police youth aid officer, I dealt with too many of these cases\u2014that was a few years ago, and it\u2019s getting worse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EThere are some questions that need clarifying in the bill, which I\u2019m sure will be dealt with at select committee. Why we\u2019re not using similar wording used in section 131B of the Crimes Act 1961, which outlines more clearly the acts which are actually criminal. We\u2019d like it to be more specific as to the ingredients required for the crime. Intent is the main ingredient and it must be specific when new section 126A has a 10-year jail term for intent to mislead. As Duncan Webb said earlier on, that should be a huge deterrent for any potential unintended consequences, which need to be examined with a real high degree of scrutiny. We support the increase in penalty and note that this offence could fit into the three strikes regime, another deterrent for repetitive abuse. The current definition of a serious, violent offence in the Crimes Act would fit inside this bill. I am interested in where 17-year-olds fit into this legislation, and I\u2019m sure this will be fully explained throughout the select committee process as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003ESo the bill is necessary. Things are getting worse. Statistics are really awful\u2014quite shameful. Police need the tools to prosecute and we must protect our most vulnerable kids. Well done to the member and ACT supports this bill at first reading. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae969ba605344e9a8f95a8c57b545e1b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae969ba605344e9a8f95a8c57b545e1b\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. A real pleasure to stand and talk to this Crimes (Child Exploitation Offences) Amendment Bill. I, firstly, want to acknowledge the member Ginny Andersen for another important bill being drawn out of the ballot again\u2014also feeling a little bit like, \u201CHey, my turn next.\u201D Nevertheless, I\u2019m delighted that this bill has been pulled out of the ballot. This is a really thoughtful bill, I think, and as the member Ginny Andersen has said, there is some work to do in regards to this bill to firm up and perhaps look at the penalties etc. and comments that have been made from all members in this House have been very thoughtful and, I think, very useful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EOne of the things that I particularly like about this piece of legislation is the carve-out, I guess we could call it, in regards to police being able to perform a duty in order to capture, perhaps, this grooming behaviour online. The member Dr Duncan Webb spoke about this and I certainly think that his points were particularly useful in this area. I think we also need to be very careful when we talk about these kinds of circumstances that we are very clear that this is harmful activity and getting away with it is something that has often occurred. So these sting operations that the police operate under are often as a result of many months of work and clear evidence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EI would just like to talk a little bit about the service in my community Tautoko Mai, which is a really great service that looks after the people who are victims, survivors of sexual violence etc. Now, the reason I want to raise this is to acknowledge a recent\u2014well, somewhat recent\u2014conference that I attended in Hamilton that Tautoko Mai put on. At this conference there was a speaker there that talked to us about digital harm and children and young people. Now, my children are older and so technology was probably not as available\u2014they\u2019re in their late 20s now. So I was flabbergasted to discover that there are all sorts of things that groom children and basically trick children into being harmed online; for example, something called porn parody, which is pornography which looks like\u2014the example that we were given that was quite shocking to me was The Lego Movie. There\u2019s a little statement on this item that you can click on that says, \u201CThis is porn parody.\u201D, but actually if you were a child, you were just going into look at The Lego Movie, you\u2019d click on that and you would see pornography\u2014quite insidious, quite worrisome that these are the kinds of things that are happening in our online situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also like to acknowledge this Netsafe report done alongside the Ministry for Women. I was quite dismayed to look at some of the statistics that they talk about. And I do recommend, if people have a chance, going to this NZ Teens and Digital Harm Report and having a good read of it. One of the things that I thought was particularly interesting was how young people dealt with the abuse, and I want to just acknowledge and perhaps ask the member, when the select committee is looking at this bill, to look at the responses for young people and to make sure that they don\u2019t become responsible for dealing with these situations. A lot of these young people blocked the information, changed their username etc. I commend the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0d7e48260634ba6add64b586a1f9183\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0d7e48260634ba6add64b586a1f9183\u0022\u003EPAUL EAGLE (Labour\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare. Thank you, Mr Speaker. What a pleasure it is to talk to a bill, the Crimes (Child Exploitation Offences) Amendment Bill, from a person who I\u2019ve known for many years, and that\u2019s the member for Hutt South, Ginny Andersen. I worked with her in the New Zealand Police, when we were there, and can I just say that she has an outstanding understanding of the justice sector, and the role she has in the chair is well deserved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003EI\u2019m thinking, as people speak and talk about this piece of work, that they reflect on the importance of children. Many of us have children, and no doubt all of us are thinking, \u201CAha! What does this mean?\u201D I know, when I see my little six-year-old and his command of the iPad, it does make me worry. At the moment, I can see this game called Minecraft. I think it looks safe; I\u2019m not too sure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022078a5da7cf4e4ab7b1c19c60516579fb\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s awesome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b9e02a7cbca435f9ab11b977a263792\u0022\u003EPAUL EAGLE\u003C/span\u003E: The member for Christchurch Central says, \u201CAwesome.\u201D So it must be safe and good! But I\u2019m not too sure, and I guess that\u2019s the point: as a six-year-old like that can take such a command. These things just weren\u2019t invented in our young age. And I heard someone talk about their perception of what someone looks like, and I was thinking, \u201CJeepers, it\u2019s more and more looking like me!\u201D But can I reassure you it\u2019s not! I think that was the Green member. But what the Green member was saying was that it could really be anyone, and that\u2019s the point here: that we\u2019ve got children who have now a much better command of these things, probably better than their parents, but it\u2019s an everyday part of their life. And even just going through this latest COVID response, our online learning and their further command and understanding of all things digital just increases. And I guess there\u2019s a responsibility\u2014I always think there\u2019s a responsibility there to take the time to understand these things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003EAnd I was talking to the electorate office secretary, or whatever they\u2019re called now, Brian Dawson there in Newtown, and I was saying to him, \u201CLook, I\u2019m going to be speaking on this. What issues have we had?\u201D And we were recounting a person in Hataitai, someone locally, who was quite astonished that there was this exchange of photos, just done on an iPhone, back and forward, and the worst thing is that their son and the parent of the daughter who came to the house and had this conversation didn\u2019t think there was anything wrong at that time. But, actually, when they started working through it and then talking about the wider consequences, they realised that a whole lot could go wrong. I believe this bill, an important member\u2019s bill, will certainly help in those conversations. And we have had quite some.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003EI know, when I talk to the principals\u2014I\u2019ve got seven secondary schools in the electorate. It\u2019s a small electorate, geography wise, I do get out and talk to them, and I will talk about this. So, the member for Hutt South, when it goes back to the select committee, I will encourage them to make submissions, to talk to their leaders and to their technical and digital people on campus and say, \u201CLook, here\u2019s an opportunity to get this right.\u201D And I believe there\u2019s a lot more out there than what is being said. I think it brings deep shame on people when they find out something is going on, or they don\u2019t quite know how to manage it. I think it\u2019s a lot deeper, and some of my colleagues have actually hinted at that, saying, \u201CLook, we just don\u2019t know.\u201D And there\u2019s a survey there that\u2019s been indicated, between Netsafe and the Ministry for Women, for example, that talks about the experiences of teenagers, and, in fact, seven out of 10 experience some sort of unwanted digital communication.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s what the survey tells us. I believe it\u2019s a lot more, and, I think, once this has the opportunity to get some air and for people to unpick it, the select committee will do a good job. And they will be busy because this will expose some of the things that I believe are hidden there, and this will do a good, decent job. So I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1a57a69015047348a92aec3801e9b1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1a57a69015047348a92aec3801e9b1f\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of the National Party to support the Crimes (Child Exploitation Offences) Amendment Bill through to select committee. I\u2019ll start by congratulating Ginny Andersen on having this bill drawn and debated tonight in the House. It looks like consensus, at least supporting it through to select committee, from all parties, so well done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThis bill amends the Crimes Act, as we\u2019ve heard, to provide for new offences relating to persons 18 years or older using electronic communications, such as social media platforms\u2014which are increasingly used by people of all ages\u2014to harm persons under 16, and it increases penalties for all those offences relating to sexual grooming of children online. Certainly, this is a growing issue, as most of the world now spends a lot of their time online, and certainly children spend a huge amount of time online these days, in various formats, and certainly their parents don\u2019t always know what they\u2019re up to online either. But there is an important issue here in that there are people who seek to contact young people with ill intent, and there needs to be some protection for those young people, and to send a clear message to those who have nefarious purposes in mind that there will be very serious consequences for them if they try to groom young people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ESo this is a good step in sending that clear message to people who have the wrong intention. There are, of course, some issues that will no doubt need to be addressed. There\u2019s always unforeseen consequences with every piece of legislation, and if there are any of those, I\u2019m sure we\u2019ll hear about those in the select committee. But on first reading, this looks like a well-thought-out piece of law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EI note that Crown Law, via the Attorney-General, has had a look at this. The first concern for anyone when there\u2019s a potential restriction on communications is whether it will be consistent or inconsistent with the section 14 right in the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act for freedom of expression. I note that the Attorney-General has said that any \u201Cenactment that criminalises communication will cause a prima facie inconsistency with s 14 of the [New Zealand] Bill of Rights \u2026 However, restricting the use of a digital communication in the manner proposed is a demonstrably justified limit on that freedom. [And] The purpose \u2026 is to ensure that vulnerable minors are not misled in their digital communications as to a person\u2019s age or identity, such that it may lead to meeting with or a plan to meet with that person.\u201D That certainly will be of concern to all right-thinking members of the community, that there are people who wish to communicate with a young person with an intention to meet with them. If someone who is an adult is intending to meet with a person under the age of 16, that is something that needs to be very strongly discouraged, which this bill certainly does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EI note that the Attorney-General has gone on to say that the \u201Cproposed restrictions on the right to freedom of expression are rationally connected with the broad objective expressed in the Explanatory note to the Bill, which is to address the incidences of harm experienced by young people in online platforms and to protect young people from harm online.\u201D It\u2019s to stop young people from receiving unwanted digital communications, and young people can be harmed by receiving unwanted digital communications, which causes a negative impact on their real-time activities, such as being contacted online by a stranger or being asked to share a nude or nearly nude image of themselves. This is something that\u2014and Parliament wants to send a very clear signal to the community\u2014will not be tolerated and will result in very serious consequences for anyone who inappropriately engages online. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThis is a good bill on first reading. Look forward to seeing its progression through to select committee, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022 data-id=\u00229e3491b3286641969979201136e55a94\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e3491b3286641969979201136e55a94\u0022\u003EDr EMILY HENDERSON (Labour\u2014Whang\u0101rei):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, it\u2019s such a pleasure to stand and support this bill and to congratulate my colleague Ginny Andersen on bringing an elegant, simple, and perfectly formed bill before the House\u2014one that actually addresses something quite significant. You know, our teens\u2014and I\u2019m the mum of four and auntie to a further 14 kids between the ages of two and 21 and the entire range of 19 grandchildren\u2014they are so skilled. They outpace us so fast when it comes to digital technology. Who would have realised that such a range of lovely images of healthful fruit and vegetables apparently are not innocent in their expression. Who would have realised that Netflix, and that Minecraft with its zombies and killing of chickens, is out there. It masquerades as such a simple thing. Our children tell us that, no, no, they\u2019re definitely not using the \u201Ckill\u201D function on Minecraft, but they are because children are children\u2014I\u2019m just warning Mr Eagle here. I\u2019m warning them because kids are the way they always have been: they outpace us on the technology, they wrap us round their little fingers, and they run in circles around our aged legs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EThis bill addresses a really important aspect of that because while they are so darn clever, they are also just as naive and helpless and trusting as we were when we were kids. The romanticism and the hope in a young person, that they\u2019ve met that special someone online or that they\u2019ve struck up a deep and meaningful friendship or even just a nice chat with a nice person of their own age\u2014they are so vulnerable. For all that they are clever and slick with the killing of the chickens and the goat murdering that goes on in that terrible Minecraft server, they are also still the naive young kids that we were when we were their age and they need that protection that this bill will give them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EGrooming is no joke. As a prosecutor and as a lawyer in the old days before I got this job a year ago, the reality of grooming of children for abuse is something that I had to deal with on a reasonably regular basis and it is very, very hard to recognise for the child concerned because it hits all those bases. It seems like friendship, it seems like affection, and it crosses those boundaries so carefully, and it is so blooming effective. Once it sets in, once the kid realises what\u2019s really going on, the shame and the pain that it brings to them is so difficult to treat. This is just another medium whereby the unfortunate predators that we do have in our society can target our kids\u2014kids who unfortunately are smarter than their parents when it comes to the Minecraft and all those other things\u2014there\u2019s something called Reddit, I understand, as well. They are smarter than us, they are better at these things than us, but we cannot as adults forget that, inside, they\u2019re still the little wee people that we actually do understand as much as we do not understand the internet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003ESo I am delighted to see this bill. One of the interesting things that\u2019s been quoted by some of our colleagues tonight is the studies that point to the incidence of targeting of our young people. It is really useful to have that data and to have that hard empirical evidence of the importance of this bill. That seven in 10 young teens are getting unwanted advances over the internet is something that should really worry us all. In the course of working on the harmful digital communications legislation, which can be seen as a kind of sister bill to this in some ways, we also heard about the prevalence of revenge porn when these things go wrong. Our kids are so vulnerable. I am so delighted that my colleague Ginny Andersen has seen fit to bring this bill forward because it is going to put a really important tool in our hands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003ESo in my final words on this matter\u2014to my children, I know you\u2019re watching, I know you\u2019re using Minecraft on the killer mode. I am wise to you. Occasionally, mother really does know best and Auntie Ginny on this occasion has really got it nailed. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ccc3a7dedeb94096af7cfecb8cbe41ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ccc3a7dedeb94096af7cfecb8cbe41ce\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Ginny Andersen in reply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022aef3701d3cda4cf9a6494f1916ea8eed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aef3701d3cda4cf9a6494f1916ea8eed\u0022\u003EGINNY ANDERSEN (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E How can I outdo that fantastic speech from the wonderful Dr Emily Henderson? Look, to wrap things up tonight, I\u2019d like to give thanks to all members for their well-thought-through and well-delivered speeches tonight. It\u2019s really heartening to have support from all the different parties represented in this House to take my bill to select committee. No members\u2019 bill is ever perfect\u2014well, some might be, but I acknowledge that there are parts of this that will need further work, potentially from advice that we receive through the submissions process, and also from advice that we may well receive from officials. I welcome that to strengthen the bill where it needs to be and to make sure it accurately reflects and works well with other elements of existing law and other policies in place that work towards protecting New Zealand\u2019s children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EAs a mum, I think of my children, and nothing strikes fear into my heart more than the thought of them coming to harm. I guess that\u2019s the motivating factor, really, for me bringing this bill to the House, it is as a parent who wants my children to have full access to the knowledge and the availability of information and the wonderful opportunities for learning that the internet and this world hold, but at the same time I want to protect them from those who set out to do them harm by masquerading on the internet. So I look forward to taking this bill to the next stage and hearing the expert advice from those who come before us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to close by acknowledging, first of all, New Zealand Police, who continue to do a fantastic job in this space, which is an incredibly difficult one to work at, whether you\u2019re working with families who have been impacted from instances of online grooming or grooming in general, to those who have to work towards putting the case together and prosecuting, which can take hours upon hours that result in an unsuccessful outcome sometimes. A lot of hard work goes into making New Zealand as safe as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to acknowledge all the parents. We\u2019ve heard tonight so many accounts of the ongoing struggles that parents have on a daily basis with monitoring how much online activity children do, and how we make sure that they continue to keep themselves safe while learning and engaging on online platforms. Acknowledging that that is a heavy weight to bear as a parent and that continuing to communicate with our children and understanding what they\u2019re doing each day is a good step in the right direction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EFinally, I would like to acknowledge young people in New Zealand\u2014those young people that are growing up in an ever-changing world, whether that be through COVID19 or the internet and its way of expressing ourselves online. Unfortunately, one of the outcomes from COVID-19 has meant that, more than ever, we rely upon the internet for communication, and therefore we should remain as vigilant as ever to make sure we protect how our young people are engaging with each other and others within the community, and even in other countries. This bill provides further protection for our children in New Zealand, and it does it under New Zealand law. It sends a very clear message that an adult impersonating a child with the intent of meeting someone is not acceptable, and I look forward to taking this bill further to see that we can make it into law. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00227a23062b34c04afd90b0daf570d8c934\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a23062b34c04afd90b0daf570d8c934\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the Crimes (Child Exploitation Offences) Amendment Bill be considered by the Justice Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Justice Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002255b68425cd254256a9027ae6a4ba0e2b\u0022\u003EProtection of Journalists\u2019 Sources Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bee541b01cd14da092fcd6c535d713c8\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u002274c616a6c19540e09fb295c5a4a4adf2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274c616a6c19540e09fb295c5a4a4adf2\u0022\u003EGINNY ANDERSEN (Labour\u2014Hutt South)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of Louisa Wall: I move, That the Protection of Journalists\u2019 Sources Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Justice Committee to consider the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIt is a privilege to stand again in this House tonight and to be able to bring the Protection of Journalists\u2019 Sources Bill to the House for its consideration at this first reading, and to do this on behalf of my colleague and friend Louisa Wall. I know that she has worked tirelessly on both developing the bill itself as well as building some support for it, and the bill being here today really is a testimony to her dedication and passion to make New Zealand a better place and a clear commitment on this issue in terms of the integrity of the fourth estate being protected. It\u2019s sad that Louisa isn\u2019t able to be here due to our current levels within New Zealand due to COVID-19. Can I just say that Louisa Wall may well go down in parliamentary history as one of the luckiest MPs ever with the members\u2019 ballot. She\u2019s been blessed with many bills, and this is just one of them. I\u2019ll do my best, Lou, to channel you tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI also know that she engaged with some experts in order to understand the issues that are at the heart of this bill. Included in those were John Edwards and Gavin Ellis, and she would like to thank them for their input to where this bill has got today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIn bringing this bill to the House today, also, gratitude needs to be given\u2014the former member, and my former caucus colleague, the Hon Clare Curran has also had a key role in this bill being developed and reaching this current stage. She in fact developed the first draft of this bill when she was an MP, in consultation with a number of experts on the topic, on our country\u2019s civil society. I do remember, too, being on the Justice Committee with Clare when this issue arose during the inquiry to the last general election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EAt its core, this bill speaks to liberal democratic\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a31e481238143aeb703eea6115fb36c\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, we were going to support it!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226881515d246d447dadbc4376c9a44c79\u0022\u003EGINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014pay attention\u2014recognised in the international law as a key principle underpinning press freedom. Journalists rely on source protection to gather and reveal information in the public interest from confidential sources. These sources may require to be anonymous, and that is important\u2014so meaning that they can be protected from physical, economic, or professional reprisals in response to their revelations. On the fourth estate, to function effectively and to play out its role how it needs to, it is vital that our laws protect journalistic privilege to censure, to make sure that our press have the ability to function and to report freely without being impeded\u2014also, sometimes critically, without the fear of or the threat of reprisal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EAn important area of this law specifically is how it functions in the case of police. When a journalist\u2019s premises or property are subject to a police search, protecting the identity of those sources must be a primary concern. As it stands, although New Zealand law currently references the importance of respecting journalistic privilege in the case of police searches, it contains a gap as to how this important protection is actually guaranteed. Although the Search and Surveillance Act 2012 identifies the existence of journalistic privilege, with particular reference to the protections laid out in the Evidence Act 2006, it contains no clear description as to the processes that should be followed when this issue of privilege arises.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThis was a clear problem in the case of the police\u2019s search of journalist Nicky Hager\u2019s home and property in 2014, and this particular instance is the underlying driver of this bill in its design. According to the Independent Police Conduct Authority report on this situation, police policy at the time did not adequately set out the procedure officers needed to follow when applying for a search warrant or executing a search in relation to potentially privileged material. This combined with the lack of experience at the time in such matters, on the part of those officers involved, and the lack of legislative clarity to cause an \u201Cunwitting neglect of duty\u201D, as quoted. The specific purpose of this bill is to clarify and strengthen this area of our law to make sure that this scenario does not happen again. This bill clearly addresses the existing gap in the law and the specific issues highlighted within the Hager case by reinforcing the Evidence Act and the Search and Surveillance Act in recognition of journalists\u2019 duty to protect their sources from disclosure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIn the core of this bill are changes to the Search and Surveillance Act. As I\u2019ve already mentioned, this bill was first developed by the Hon Clare Curran, and this section has largely been inherited from her previous work. The amendments in this part of the bill enshrine in law specific protections that will help ensure that journalistic privilege is upheld when police seek to use the powers contained within the Search and Surveillance Act to conduct searches or to obtain production orders. Broadly speaking, the changes addressed here are in three core issues that arose during the Hager case, and they were based on the former honourable member\u2019s engagement with some of those involved, including Mr Hager himself as well as the legal and academic minds of those such as Steven Price, Felix Geiringer, Bruce Gray QC, and also Dr Peter Thompson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EFor example, the changes will address the issues of disclosure for the judge or issuing officer when there is a target of a search warrant or production orders who is actually a journalist. The bill does this by clarifying that police must identify as part of their applications if they believe they have reasonable grounds to believe that the person is targeted as a journalist. Responding to one of the key issues in the Hager case, this removes any potential lack of clarity from the situation, and, also, it ensures the right to have this privilege protected by the courts when an application is made or enshrined in law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EAdditionally, the bill\u2019s amendments outline that there are some additional steps that must be taken when dealing with journalistic privilege in the case of search warrants or production orders. This means that in future cases, officers dealing with someone they think is a journalist have some clear guidance to follow as the minimum things that they need to do in order to protect journalistic privilege. This will help prevent scenarios such as those that arose in the Hager case from happening again. These changes were put into the bill more recently after the Hon Clare Curran passed the bill on to Louisa Wall and are intended to address the issues that have arisen as the definition of \u201Cjournalist\u201D for the purposes of evidence and police services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIn sum, this bill deals with issues that go right to the heart of the role of the media and journalism in our liberal democratic society. As I\u2019ve outlined, it is vitally important that our laws adequately protect journalistic privilege to ensure that journalists, especially investigative journalists, can do their jobs. I am very pleased that this bill has the opportunity to be considered not only by this House but also by the Justice Committee. I know that this bill touches on some technical elements of the operation of law enforcement in New Zealand, and I look forward to hearing from the relevant departments and the public at select committee in regards to any improvements that can be made on this bill. On behalf of my parliamentary colleague and my dear friend Louisa Wall, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022035a69580eff4baba3a92887779ca260\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022035a69580eff4baba3a92887779ca260\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u002272c8fcc175684933a1a05c98d3f7e29a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272c8fcc175684933a1a05c98d3f7e29a\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E I was just reflecting, as the member was speaking\u2014in a sense, for Louisa Wall\u2014that any member of Parliament who\u2019s been around a little while will have on occasion a sense of ambivalence around journalists. You know, we will from time to time have stories we think are somewhat unfair or don\u2019t quite characterise things in quite the way they perhaps could. But, of course, the role of a journalist in bringing forward the truth, investigating significant matters, and holding the powerful to account is incredibly important and is, as Ginny Andersen said, an integral part of a liberal democratic society like New Zealand\u2019s. Actually, it\u2019s even more important, I would argue, in many other countries where they don\u2019t have our democratic tradition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EBut the point to make is simply that, yep, what members of Parliament do is significant and what journalists do is also significant. All it\u2019s just reflecting, of course, is that members of Parliament in this House, we have privileges. We have the privilege, not recklessly or wantonly, but to speak truth to power and say things in this House without fear of defamation proceedings, for example. And that\u2019s because of the importance of being able to speak out from time to time, and, really, just to say it again, the same is true for journalists. There\u2019ll be times where they also should have privileges so that they can do their job fearlessly, not recklessly but fearlessly, and hold power to account and speak truth to power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EI\u2019d just reflect, while I\u2019m speaking generally about journalists, that of course we know, whenever we watch international news or read international newspapers, about the prosecutions, persecutions, in some cases deaths that befall journalists for doing their jobs. That of course is awful. We condemn it, and we stand up in favour of freedom for journalists to go about their significant jobs and play the significant part they play in societies around the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003ENational\u2019s going to support this bill at first reading. As with every member\u2019s bill today, its intentions are good and there does seem to be a sense of a legislative gap here\u2014as presented in the bill and its explanatory note\u2014that\u2019s right to fill. It does seem, is what I\u2019m saying, that it\u2019s right to fill the legislative gap that is done so by this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EThe bill does, I think, two or three things. It amends the definition of a journalist in the Evidence Act so that it explicitly includes investigative journalists based on the UN Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization\u2014that is, UNESCO\u2019s\u2014position that investigative journalism crucially contributes to freedom of expression and media development. It also addresses questions that have arisen from a court decision by Justice Winkelmann, Chief Justice, by clarifying that books written by investigative journalists are covered by journalistic privilege, not just the media articles that journalists write. And, thirdly, it amends the Search and Surveillance Act to ensure that journalists\u2019 sources are clearly protected in relation to production orders and police searches. It inserts clear requirements on police in these circumstances to ensure that protections are understood and upheld.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003ENational will be interested in the submissions. On a bill like this, one would expect there to be some very interesting submissions from the Press Gallery, from various other journalistic entities and organisations, individual journalists, and also just the wider civil society that come along and give a view. I don\u2019t think that all those submissions will speak as one. I think there will be different views, or shades, at least, of views presented.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003ESo, in sum, National supports this bill at first reading. I do, though, just want to make mention of one caveat that National has. It\u2019s questionable, and I think some of my colleagues would say it\u2019s doubtful, that journalistic privilege should apply where the material in question is obtained by a crime. That may be the case in relation to a theft. I\u2019m interested in the arguments we might hear at select committee, but it does seem to me that that\u2019s a reasonably common-sense position that I\u2019m taking. The bill doesn\u2019t have an exemption or a carve-out in that instance and I think that would be an important thing in this bill and potentially important to secure National\u2019s continued support for the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EI note that other privileges of all manner, when it comes to the evidence and search and surveillance and other criminal or associated laws, they often also have carve-outs. When we think of the privilege from defamation proceedings in this House\u2014that has been whittled away at, over the years. There have been new aspects to that made. When I think of\u2014and it\u2019s been some time, I accept, since I\u2019ve looked at these areas, but if I look at the priest confessor confessional situation, that\u2019s not absolute. There are other areas where the privileges are\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022daedb711c69c4f54b4bf0d8d59081a6d\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Husband and wife.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220aa874eacfc242e98f027a8ebfb3ad1f\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES\u003C/span\u003E: Husband and wife; that\u2019s exactly right. You\u2019re taking me back to law school, Dr Webb; it\u2019s been a while. I don\u2019t think any of those issues were ever once, in my several years as a prosecutor, actual, live cases. I doubt whether I ever had a priest telling me that they weren\u2019t going to\u2014actually, possibly in the cases of spouses, I must say. But anyway, I digress. So I\u2019m simply making the point that we do think, actually, there probably is a caveat here that should apply in relation to this well-intentioned law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also just make the point more generally on this area of law that, look, the journalistic privilege was last strengthened by the last National-led Government in 2012\u2014in fact, by the Hon Judith Collins as justice Minister\u2014and that was through the 2012 search and surveillance law. And I would note, in relation to that, whilst I have said that I tend to accept there\u2019s a gap here that this bill could profitably fill, that the Law Commission and the Ministry of Justice both did say in 2017 that actually this area of law, after they\u2019d reviewed it, was working generally pretty well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EI simply say that because I wouldn\u2019t want to be standing here or give the impression that somehow I think we\u2019re in a terrible position, that there\u2019s urgent need for reform and that what has been and what continues to be the law today in this area of journalistic privilege is somehow incredibly short and unjust. I don\u2019t think that. I think what is true, though, is there is a legislative gap we can fill, and that\u2019s why we\u2019re supporting this bill at first reading, because the rights of journalists and the ability for journalists to do their job fearfully\u2014fearlessly, I should say\u2014is critically important. With those comments I conclude my remarks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022 data-id=\u00229a0f43358647418c839dbb3cc1b3f118\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a0f43358647418c839dbb3cc1b3f118\u0022\u003EDr EMILY HENDERSON (Labour\u2014Whang\u0101rei):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a real pleasure to rise in support of this very important bill, and with my colleague Ginny, I say to our colleague Louisa\u2014or as we now know her, \u201CLucky Lou\u201D\u2014this is a wonderful piece of legislation, and I\u2019m just so delighted to be able to rise and speak in its favour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EYou know, I had a wee look at the Law Commission\u2019s recent report, report 128, where they say \u201CAlongside these obligations to provide the public with reliable and accessible sources of information, the press was also charged with being the public\u2019s \u2018eyes and ears\u2019 and, most critically, using their privileged access to provide an independent watch-dog on the exercise of state and other seats of power.\u201D What a crucial role.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EIn an earlier speech to this House I invoked my children. For this one I want to invoke my dad. My dad was a defence counsel when I was a young child. He always impressed on us the importance of the criminal court as a way in which you hold the feet of the powerful to the fire and you test in the rights of the vulnerable. This fourth estate does exactly the same thing. It was also Dad who gave me books by brilliant investigative journalists like David Yallop, who wrote reasonable doubt, the Arthur Allan Thomas investigation. Who gave me\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd0e3dd69be843ffad290855777cb7af\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a great one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dc94b457b8f44cda9772300ecf44d96\u0022\u003EDr EMILY HENDERSON\u003C/span\u003E: It is. Who gave me Donald Woods\u2019 book on Steve Biko, which first gave me that sense of how a State could stray from the path of democracy and how journalists play a vital part in hauling us back and keeping us to the standards of morality. Of course he gave me the great Woodward and Bernstein\u2019s amazing piece of investigative journalism. It is that sort of work that we are protecting today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EHowever, I do note Oscar Wilde said, \u201CIn the old days men had the rack. Now they have the press. That is an improvement certainly. But still it is very bad\u201D. I have to disagree with the great Oscar. The importance of investigative journalism, the importance of them in holding our feet to the fire, putting us on the rack, cannot be overestimated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EThe situation we had with the extraordinary and wonderful Nicky Hager back in 2014 proves that we have a hole in our law and we need to fill it. It is Louisa Wall who has stepped in to make this piece of legislation come to fruition, or at least start to flower perhaps, to use a spring metaphor since that\u2019s where we are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EIn the era of social media rumours, falsehoods, in the era of super spin, in the era of alternate facts, in an era where we saw one of the world\u2019s great democracies coming quite close to a kind of ersatz coup, so very recently, the importance of strong journalism, the importance of a free press who are able to get down and do the work and protect their sources in order to be able to do the work\u2014the way in which they, in some ways, work with whistleblowers to become themselves whistleblowers\u2014could not be more important to us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003ESo I am very, very grateful to have the opportunity as a member of Government to promote the freedom of press. I am very, very grateful to have a moment to celebrate the work of investigative journalists like Nicky Hager, like Donald Woods, like David Yallop, even like Woodward and Bernstein. It is a wonderful moment to be a fangirl of investigative journalists, and I most sincerely am a fangirl of this piece of legislation, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6faefedc54f471393ac6c9a9eaa1fd8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6faefedc54f471393ac6c9a9eaa1fd8\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Fakaalofa lahi atu, Madam Speaker. I\u2019d just like to congratulate the member Louisa Wall for pulling another one out of the hat, out of the jar. The luckiest member in history. I\u2019m not a gambling person, but maybe if that member got a Lotto ticket, she\u2019d be a winner. And also, probably, there\u2019s, at least with the class of 2020, the second-luckiest member at pulling out another bill, Ginny Andersen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re going to support this bill. It makes sense, the Protection of Journalists\u2019 Sources Bill. Our vision for the media is to make sure that we have a strong, diverse, accessible, and independent media, which is essential to effective democracy and to Aotearoa New Zealand\u2019s social, cultural, economic, and environmental wellbeing. This bill will make two changes to improve the protections for journalists\u2019 sources, to address the issues of the type that arose from the search of Nicky Hager\u2019s house. One, amend the definition of \u201Cjournalists\u201D in the Evidence Act 2006 so that it explicitly includes investigative journalists. Two, clarify that books written by investigative journalists are covered by journalistic privilege, i.e., not just media articles. And, three, amend the Search and Surveillance Act 2012 to provide explicit protections for journalists\u2019 sources when applying for a production order or applying for a search warrant or exercising a search warrant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EThe issues arose out of this from the investigative journalist work of Nicky Hager. He\u2019s written books, and I\u2019m pretty sure some of us have read those books, around the House, such as Other People\u2019s Wars, Hit and Run, and, of course, Dirty Politics. I wasn\u2019t in Parliament then, but I do remember reading that book, Dirty Politics, and there was an all-star cast in that one. There\u2019s an all-star cast with a bit of a legacy, maybe there\u2019s a bit of a trilogy, and there may be a bit of a residue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EIn December 2015, the then Green Party co-leader Metiria Turei complained to the authority, the Independent Police Conduct Authority, about the police\u2019s search of Mr Hager\u2019s property. She asked the authority to investigate a couple of things: whether there was any misconduct or neglect of duty by any member of police, the police\u2019s decision not to disclose in their warrant applications of journalistic privilege issue, and the actions of officers who were involved in the decision-making process regarding the application of the warrant. It\u2019s been referred to a couple of times tonight that the judgment\u2014I mean, basically, they got told off. They got put in the naughty box. One of the findings that the authority had was, when interviewing the officers involved in drafting and executing the search warrant, the authority found that they had no experience in dealing with the journalistic privilege issues. So this is going to help clear it out, because sometimes with the cops you\u2019ve got to really, really spell it out that, actually, you need to apply the law evenly: to the powerful as well as they do with the powerless. Sometimes you\u2019ve got to spell it out, and this is what this will do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EBecause we are living in the world of massive media companies like Facebook\u2014and just last week we had a lot of articles around the whistleblower at Facebook; and Facebook is a $1 trillion company. And so we need to be able to protect those journalists. The type of power that those new social media companies\u2014it should be something that we all worry about as well, because in many ways we\u2019re all kind of prisoners of their algorithm. I mean, you don\u2019t get on the news unless you say something outrageous. The journalists are kind of trapped into it as well: in order for them to reach their audiences, they\u2019ve got to make sure that what they write is engaging on Facebook, engaging on Twitter, and all that kind of thing. In order for us to get our messages out to people, we\u2019ve got to make sure that we do things that are engaging for them as well. So at the foundation of this is the question of power\u2014the foundation of this is the question of power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EI look forward to the submissions that will come in to the select committee. I think there\u2019s a lot of issues that could be teased out, because this is one example of, yes, we need to spell it out so they know what they\u2019re doing when they\u2019re going to people\u2019s houses, what journalistic privilege actually looks like. But then there are actually all these underlying power issues that we need to spell out, in a whole lot of other circumstances, so that when the law is applied, the police can recognise where and when they should be applying it across the board, with the powerful but also with the powerless as well. So in that vein, we support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab65d772b9a64bbd9c795a78ebdf4fb5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab65d772b9a64bbd9c795a78ebdf4fb5\u0022\u003EGREG O\u2019CONNOR (Labour\u2014\u014Ch\u0101riu):\u003C/span\u003E I think it was Julius Caesar who said, \u201CI love treason but despise a traitor.\u201D And, while it may not be directly related to journalism, I think the basis of this discussion\u2014the basis of this case\u2014is often about how people regard the information for which the issue is being discussed. I look at some of the most recent cases: the Pandora Papers, the Panama Papers; some of the more recent whistle-blowers: Edward Snowden, Julian Assange, Chelsea Manning\u2014even going back as far as Watergate, which someone had alluded to before. And, in each of these cases, your views on the information obtained by the particular person will often be coloured by your views on what the effect is of the information that\u2019s obtained. And so we go back to the genesis of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThe genesis of this bill, of course, as mentioned by the previous speaker, Teanau Tuiono, was a raid\u2014a search warrant in fact\u2014executed on Nicky Hager in order to obtain information about the theft of emails. And that was, essentially, what was being investigated. What police were looking for was evidence of an offence, of theft\u2014somewhat clumsily, as it turns out, if you look at the High Court judgment\u2014and, to be fair to them, operating in an area which lacked clarity both in police operations and in the law. Ironically, if you do look at the judgment or look at the articles afterwards, what the police did miss when they were actually searching that premises was actually evidence of Edward Snowden\u2019s papers, which were, evidently, at the address at the time. But, of course, that wasn\u2019t what the Police were there for; they were looking for evidence of stolen emails.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESo it goes back to your views on these matters will often be coloured by your views on the outcome. And so that\u2019s why this bill is important. Even if you go looking for a definition of \u201Cjournalist\u201D, if you go to the Cambridge dictionary, they\u2019ll say \u201CA person who writes news stories or articles or broadcasts them on radio and television.\u201D And that\u2019s a relatively contemporary definition. It doesn\u2019t mention anything about social media. It doesn\u2019t mention anything about electronic media, which, of course, most of the information which is going to be disclosed, available, is now in an electronic form. Even the Webster dictionary defines it, a person engaged in journalism, as a writer who aims at a mass audience. Perhaps that\u2019s just a little more accurate today, but, again, just looking for a definition of who is a journalist, which is, again, at the genesis of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESo what this bill, of course, does is it ensures that, when police or any other authorities are looking for a search warrant, that they\u2019re going to be conducting the search warrant, they must indicate that the subject of the search warrant, or the person whose address\u2014or probably more likely their electronic devices are going to be searched\u2014is actually a journalist and the investigation is a part of that journalist\u2019s or part of that profession. And it certainly, at the same time, does expand just what a journalist is beyond those definitions which I gave. And that is important, because I go back to those various individuals I mentioned, the writer of the Dirty Politics book. These were certainly not written by people who were acting as journalists necessarily at the time. So what this bill will do is extend the protections available to those people\u2014extend the protections available\u2014and, more importantly, will give those conducting the investigation much better clarity about when they are on safe legal ground and when they\u2019re not. And that alone should ensure, and I hope it will ensure, that, in future, information which does end up in the public will do so under much better guidelines. So I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd7f37f3fdbf4d009fa6f3bc484750f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd7f37f3fdbf4d009fa6f3bc484750f3\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022264da46dc11b4a7f9f5dac4c6e43c521\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022264da46dc11b4a7f9f5dac4c6e43c521\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the ACT Party in support of this Protection of Journalists\u2019 Sources Bill for the first reading. I think that what the member in charge\u2014I think it\u2019s Louisa Wall\u2014has brought is an interesting question. If we agree that journalists should have a protection of their sources in order that they can bring to light information that those in power would rather be kept secret, they must sometimes have to be able to defend their sources legally, or protect their sources. If they can\u2019t, people may be less willing to give them information, and terrible scandals and abuses of power may go unreported, fester, and gradually corrupt this society. All of that makes perfect sense, that there should be some immunity\u2014or as they call it in the law, \u201Cprivilege\u201D\u2014for journalists to protect their sources.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EWhat this piece of legislation does is widens the definition of who a journalist should be. And I have to say, the ACT Party is not entirely sold on whether that is a necessary or desirable thing. We certainly understand that the particular party that brought it forward\u2014and the particular MP, who, it has to be said, has a chequered track record of producing legislation\u2014has been very influenced by one particular person, and it\u2019s not always a good idea to make a law because one particular person has influenced you, or to have a law written that almost seems to have been written for a particular person. Of course that person in question is Nicky Hager. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EWhat the bill would do is say that if a person writes books that are original and reveal information that might not otherwise be revealed, then they should be given the protections, under the Evidence Act, of not having to reveal their sources in court; they should be given the protections, under the Search and Surveillance Act, that the Government\u2014or at least any agent of the Government\u2014seeking a warrant or issuing a warrant or searching or surveilling somebody should exercise the kind of caution they would exercise towards a journalist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThe question is, should somebody who writes books be included in that? I think there\u2019s a few people who might say that if you wrote books, for example, with material that could only have come from a burglary, material that it turned out was stolen, and if you had some form at writing such books, then some people might ask, \u201CWell, perhaps that person should be subject to the full force of the law.\u201D Perhaps actually committing crimes to pry into people\u2019s privacy is not something that could be included in journalism. And if the purpose of this particular bill is really to protect one person who\u2019s an outlier, maybe it\u2019s not so noble at all. That\u2019s what we want to see tested at the select committee. We think that the freedoms of a free press are important enough to warrant putting through, but we have some real questions over whether this bill does it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI found it rather amusing earlier, in the speeches by some of the Labour members\u2014it was extraordinary\u2014I heard the member from Whang\u0101rei, Dr Emily Henderson, in her Whang\u0101rei accent waxing lyrical about the ancient freedoms and the God-given rights that we should all have. Well, let\u2019s just get a bit of perspective here. This is a Government which, at present, is rushing through\u2014under urgency\u2014legislation that retrospectively changes commercial contracts, going somewhere that no Government of either stripe in this Parliament has ever gone before. This is a Government that got into a spat, and I don\u2019t mean that to be a pun, but a spat with a saliva-testing provider and is now producing legislation that says if you don\u2019t sell it to us we\u2019ll just come and take it. This is the Labour Party of high virtue that is trying to uphold the rule of law, and actually passes retrospective legislation\u2014under urgency\u2014that tries to take people\u2019s property if they won\u2019t sell it to them at a price they deserve. But when Nicky Hager writes a book and gets shaken down, they rush legislation into this House to try and uphold those high and mighty values.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThis deserves to go into the select committee because journalistic freedom is worthy of upholding, but there\u2019s some serious questions about whether that\u2019s really what this is about from this Labour Party. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u0022b587dfc31be941b29251df2a764611d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b587dfc31be941b29251df2a764611d9\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Just on that particular point of legislation, the people of Nelson love the commercial lease legislation, and I\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad6ed674fd1c4574877571e518b30512\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: One-termer. You\u2019ll be a one-termer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a007f5bd054a4d0d8650d896a8b28195\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: Well, just in response to the previous member, David Seymour, they do\u2014they do. We\u2019ve had many, many people in the retail and accommodation sectors struggling, small businesses struggling to pay their rent. These are businesses that are going to not survive. So by introducing that legislation, Mr Seymour\u2014thank you for raising it tonight, it\u2019s always good to talk about what we\u2019re doing to support small business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EBut, on the point of this legislation that\u2019s introduced tonight, the Protection of Journalists\u2019 Sources Bill, it\u2019s a wonderful night in Parliament when we can all speak almost in unison about the importance of journalism and that the House tonight is actually here tonight to stand up for the role that journalism plays in our society. I want to acknowledge my colleague Louisa Wall, and former MP Clare Curran, who was the driving force behind this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ELook, journalists play an incredibly important role around our world, and recently, some members from across this House met with a group of journalists based in Myanmar about some of the struggles that they are facing as journalists to be able to put stories into the public domain about what is being faced in Myanmar. Recently we\u2019ve also seen journalists on the front line in Afghanistan playing a critical role ensuring that the world sees what\u2019s happening with the Taliban takeover in Afghanistan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EJournalists are good people. I have many friends who are journalists. They are very good people. They often go\u2014\u201Cyes, yes, yes\u201D, like the member opposite, and I hope we get to hear from her tonight. Journalists are good people. I have many friends who went into journalism wanting to do good, wanting to tell stories, wanting to help shape the narrative in the public that does good. I have a family member who is a journalist; my uncle is a journalist and known to a few people in this House. He\u2019s my Uncle Nick, who writes for the Dominion Post\u2014doesn\u2019t write about me, thankfully. He could tell stories\u2014well, he could tell a story\u2014I\u2019ll tell this story. He could tell a story about the time he convinced me to tell my primary school colleagues that he was a genius, which I dutifully did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EBut, just getting onto the point about investigative journalism, my uncle, before he became a journalist, wrote books. He wrote books about the memories and experiences of our World War I veterans\u2014fantastic books. While he didn\u2019t need to protect the people he was writing about\u2014they willingly told their stories\u2014there are many people who do wish to tell their stories, often anonymously. One of the things that I\u2019ve seen as an advocate over many years is people often wishing to speak truth to power, to tell their story in a way that gets the story out there but without putting them at risk. Often it\u2019s been tenants wanting to put stories into the public domain about landlords, about difficulties they\u2019ve had in their personal lives. I\u2019m really, really grateful\u2014one of the things I\u2019m really, really grateful for is to the journalists that I\u2019ve worked with who have actually been willing to tell those stories anonymously; make sure they were put out accurately but protected that person.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo there are two critical things that this bill does. The first is that it does expand the definition of journalist as we see it to include investigative journalism. But the other important element is that it does put clearer requirements on the police around how searches are conducted. So this bill is an important one for the House to look at. It\u2019s important for the select committee to look at it and look at what improvements can be made. I look forward to its continued progression through the House, and I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022 data-id=\u0022fda4c9eb4e59444c98dc6a56a57f599d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fda4c9eb4e59444c98dc6a56a57f599d\u0022\u003EDr LIZ CRAIG (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Just in speaking to this bill, I\u2019d just like to acknowledge the significant role that both Clare Curran and Louisa Wall have had in bringing this to the House. I think like all of us in this job, we rely on the media to keep us up to date. In most situations, it\u2019s quite clear where the sources of their information are coming from. So just thinking through the COVID-19 update at 1 p.m. in our local newspaper, the public views on certain things like a bridge that\u2019s starting to fail or even a debate about where the sewage pond should go, it\u2019s usually quite clear who\u2019s saying what and how. You\u2019ve got videos, you\u2019ve often got press releases, you\u2019ve got photos, and you\u2019ve often got attributed quotes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EAnd so for most of the sort of things that we deal with day to day, it\u2019s quite clear what\u2019s happening. But there\u2019s another range of stories where it\u2019s actually a bit more sensitive, I think, for stories like where, potentially, someone\u2019s investigating potentially a corrupt official, or those other kind of stories where, basically, journalists, often what they\u2019re doing is they\u2019re putting together pieces of information from a variety of different sources, and they\u2019re trying to corroborate that. And often people will only step forward and disclose information with a clear understanding that they\u2019re going to be able to do so anonymously, because often there\u2019s a power imbalance and there\u2019s a real fear of repercussions. I think many countries, including New Zealand, actually acknowledge and recognise this, and they do afford journalists some particular protections. And I think that\u2019s because there\u2019s the understanding that many things are in the public interest, but they wouldn\u2019t be coming forward and being brought forward to the media unless those protections were available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EAnd I look at New Zealand and its own Evidence Act and I think it\u2019s quite clear, just reading out some of the legislation there. It says, \u201CIf a journalist has promised an informant not to disclose the informant\u2019s identity, neither the journalist nor [the] employer is compellable in a civil or criminal proceeding to answer any question or produce any document that would disclose the identity of the informant or enable that identity to be discovered.\u201D I think that\u2019s a really important protection that protects the freedom of the press to be able to report and investigate sensitive issues, but it also goes on and says it\u2019s not without limit. It basically says that a judge of the High Court may order that this subsection does not apply, and then it goes on to talk about weighing up some factors in that respect. But pretty much by and large that protection is conferred.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EAnd I think, when we look at the Search and Surveillance Act 2012, it does recognise journalistic privilege and it does reference the Evidence Act in that, but the problem we\u2019ve got is it actually doesn\u2019t spell it out in terms of how that might be implemented in the context of police searches. I think, as has already been discussed in the House tonight, of the situation around the police searches in 2014 of the journalist Nicky Hager and, basically, some of the limitations that were identified in that respect. And so a lot of the issues that are being addressed in this bill actually try and fill in some more clarity and some more detail in that practical application.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EI think, firstly, what this bill does is that it actually basically expands the definition of a journalist to include investigative journalist, just reflecting the importance of investigative journalists in terms of that ability to be able to disclose information that\u2019s in the public interest. And it basically goes on to clarify that investigative journalists include people who only publish books, because I think that\u2019s just reflecting the whole ability to sit down and weigh up the evidence, multiple sources, doing that in a very in-depth and thorough way, and the importance of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EBut a few of the other areas that I think were felt to be needing clarification were around making sure that the judge is clear on those situations where there\u2019s a production order that\u2019s being applied for that a journalist may be involved. And so what, basically, this bill does is it puts in place a requirement that if somebody\u2019s coming to apply for a production order, then they must clearly identify to the judge if they have reasonable grounds to believe that that person is a journalist. I think, then, that\u2019s really important, that the judge can weigh that up in that context. And also if police are there, with a production order they need to make sure that the journalist, basically, is aware of their rights and has time to consider that. So this is a really important bill that fills in some of that finer detail and will go further in terms of protecting the freedom of the press, and I\u2019m very happy to commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022 data-id=\u0022e99e1ad1187c4534835082464d46c059\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e99e1ad1187c4534835082464d46c059\u0022\u003ENICOLA GRIGG (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E I was just about to launch into the huge presumption that I was likely the only journalist in this Chamber, and then Ingrid Leary walked in, so I can no longer assume that position. But because of that\u2014because of my experience as a journalist\u2014that is why we are very pleased to support this bill this evening, primarily because it canvasses the very important issue of journalistic privilege. Although the Search and Surveillance Act currently in place does identify the existence of journalistic privilege, where it isn\u2019t as clear is the description as to the processes to be followed when the issue of privilege arises. I do find it a little bit ironic that the person well known to us all who does tend to get a bit of a hard time from journalists is actually the person that went in to bat for extending the privileges and protections of journalists, and that is, of course, one Judith Collins. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EBut look, harking back to my own experience and the importance of being able to protect the anonymity of sources, I\u2019ve actually lost count of the amount of times people would come to me with something really, really important that they wanted to discuss and felt was important for the public to be aware of but, for fear of my inability to give them an absolute guarantee and an assurance that they would be protected, they often declined in the end to give me privileged information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003ESo too are the issues for journalists who tend to write books, and this has been well played out in a number of high-profile cases now. Obviously, many speakers have referred to the Nicky Hager case, but there\u2019s also the David Fisher case, where the Crown attempted to coerce him into revealing information that he had revealed on Kim Dotcom. There\u2019s also the John Roughan case\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5f105f33dda4ca5adc1a599949b1005\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: This is a blast from the past.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6a8ed8ff47143759bc5c99a76f8ec58\u0022\u003ENICOLA GRIGG\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014where lawyers for Bradley Ambrose attempted to secure recordings of interviews that he\u2019d used to write his biography on Sir John Key. It\u2019s funny, my colleague Chris Bishop talks about \u201Cblast from the past\u201D. In researching this piece to talk tonight, I came across words I hadn\u2019t heard of in a long time, you know, not only \u201CDirty Politics\u201D but \u201CRawshark\u201D and \u201CRawshank\u201D and \u201CWhale Oil\u201D, and so on\u2014and \u201Cteapot tapes\u201D and all those things that, let me tell you, as a press secretary during that period, it was testing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EBut actually, I spoke just before about David Fisher. He writes very succinctly about the lack of protection that journalists who write books currently have. And he does tell the story of the attempts to drag him in front of the courts to hand over the information that he had managed to glean for his own book. I quote him\u2014he said, \u201Cthere was no difference, in my mind, as to how I gathered the material for the book. I did interviews in the same way and wrote the book in the same way, [it was] just longer.\u201D So that is one important aspect that this bill will seek to address. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003ESo too will it seek to address the definition of a journalist in the Evidence Act to explicitly include the investigative journalists. It also amends the Search and Surveillance Act to ensure that journalists\u2019 sources are clearly protected in relation to police searches, as Greg O\u2019Connor has canvassed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EBut despite how many of us in this Chamber may feel at times about our friends in the press gallery, we do believe in the importance of a free and well-functioning fourth estate and the importance it plays in New Zealand\u2019s democracy. It\u2019s important that sources\u2014or, as they\u2019re colloquially known as, whistleblowers\u2014can feel free to engage with media to uncover matters of importance to New Zealanders, and that is a fundamental that I will always defend. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EWe do, however, have one slight reservation, and while we do support right now the intention of Part 2 of the bill, we do want to ensure that these provisions do not stand in the way of exceptional cases where the sources of information may have been obtained illegally. And while we tend to instinctively think of that as a robbery or a breaking and entering, of course we now have to expand that to the likes of hacking and data breaching. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003ESo, finally, we are looking forward to the select committee process. We do want to hear the practitioners\u2019 views on these matters, and, obviously, the academics will have a say, and probably the legal fraternity too. And so I do commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022 data-id=\u0022434e6f9bdbf14f94b227521cd5cf1f24\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022434e6f9bdbf14f94b227521cd5cf1f24\u0022\u003ESARAH PALLETT (Labour\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s my great privilege to rise this evening to speak in favour of the Protection of Journalists\u2019 Sources Bill. I\u2019d also like to begin by thanking and acknowledging my colleague and friend Louisa Wall, who is unable to be here to speak to her bill tonight, and also to acknowledge the Hon Clare Curran, who began this important piece of work. It is an important piece of work because the protection of sources and the support of our journalists is a key principle in securing freedom for the press, and why is it important? A lack of clarity at the moment in the law is enabling and facilitating incidents such as we saw with what we know now to be the unlawful search of investigative journalist Nicky Hager\u2019s home. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EThis particular bill will seek to address that by explicitly including investigative journalists in the definition of \u201Cjournalist\u201D, which has not been included so far in any legislation, and I\u2019m just going to read from the bill. So we have here that the definition of \u201Cjournalist\u201D is \u201Ca person who in the normal course of that person\u2019s work may be given information by an informant in the expectation that the information may be published in a news medium; and\u201D\u2014and this is the key point for investigative journalists, although I\u2019m stepping away from the definition here\u2014\u201Cincludes an investigative journalist who publishes work, including books, of in-depth inquiry and original research into matters of public interest that may not otherwise be disclosed.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EAt this point, I just want to stand in my strong support of investigative journalism. Rather than dismissing it somewhat offhandedly, as we heard a little earlier, as just writing a book\u2014and here, I\u2019m not referring to my colleague across the way, Nicola Grigg, but to a previous speaker, so that I\u2019m not misunderstood\u2014investigative journalism is extraordinarily important, and I would like to reflect to the work done by local colleagues such as Alison Mau with the #MeTooNZ work that she\u2019s done that\u2019s brought such important issues to the forefront of our minds. But if I cross what we used to call the Ditch, when I lived in the UK, looking at the work of our Pulitzer Prize winners, we\u2019ve seen them changing a Senate race by revealing a candidate\u2019s sexual harassment of teenage girls. We\u2019ve seen them revealing mass bribery. We\u2019ve seen them reveal rogue police narcotic squads, reveal congressional corruption, and neglect in protected care. So the work that they do is extraordinarily important, and it\u2019s extremely critical that we make sure that that\u2019s protected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EHow are we going to do it? Well, in this bill, we\u2019re going to be requiring that the police have to identify if a person is a journalist or if the information that they\u2019re seeking is related to a journalist. They also have to include an explanation of the rights of journalistic privilege and give the journalist reasonable time to respond to a\u2014I\u2019ve got \u201Cto a production order\u201D and I was about to say \u201Cprotection order\u201D, but it\u2019s to a \u201Cproduction order\u201D\u2014production order before seeking a search warrant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EI was kind of interested, because I\u2019m not a lawyer, and I, unfortunately, won\u2019t be on the select committee, but I wasn\u2019t sure what a production order was, so I looked it up. It, basically, was made under section 74 of the Search and Surveillance Act 2012, which requires a person or organisation such as a business to produce documents to enforcement agencies as evidential material of a specified offence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EWhy is it so important that we protect these sources and that we enable journalists to do so? Well, I think there\u2019s one pretty critical reason, and that\u2019s that if you don\u2019t do it\u2014and it is the responsibility of the journalist\u2014you\u2019re very unlikely to gain the trust of anyone ever again. Nobody is going to talk to you any more. But, more seriously, those sources may have really serious cause to fear reprisals, either physical, economic, or professional. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003ESo, in closing, I\u2019d just like to highlight again the importance of protecting and supporting our journalists, and including investigative journalists, and making sure that we continue to support the important work that sits around our freedom of the press. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00229aa704a031514ac0aa9bc75d197a9ea4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229aa704a031514ac0aa9bc75d197a9ea4\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Ginny Andersen, in reply. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u00222db1481ace2c46c3b24775396633a5b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222db1481ace2c46c3b24775396633a5b5\u0022\u003EGINNY ANDERSEN (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s been a privilege to take this bill through its first reading on behalf of Louisa Wall, and it\u2019s also been a privilege to hear the speeches from all sides of the House in looking to see that this bill will proceed into the next stage, which is at select committee, at Justice Committee. I\u2019m also looking forward to hearing the submissions that we\u2019re likely to receive, not only from members of the public but also from journalists, from those media sources, from those who take a role in the fourth estate, to see their views and understand how this can factor into this potential law change that we could be seeing through here in second and third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ETo conclude, the bill deals with issues that go right to the very heart of the role of media and journalism in a liberal democratic society here in New Zealand. It is so important\u2014vitally important, in fact\u2014that our laws adequately protect journalistic privilege to ensure that our journalists, especially investigative journalists, can do their jobs. I was once told as a member and given advice that a good member\u2019s bill is a simple one, a concise one, one that tackles a simple issue that can be tidied up. Well, Louisa Wall clearly did not take that advice. Her members\u2019 bills have been bold and brave. They have tackled many significant issues. They have indeed become law in New Zealand. This bill makes no change to that pattern. So I would like to acknowledge her hard work in tackling the big issues and bringing issues such as this, that go to the heart of our liberal democracy, to the House to be debated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EOur fourth estate\u2014to function effectively, it\u2019s important that we make sure our laws protect journalistic privilege, to ensure that our press have the ability to function and report freely without fear. That\u2019s important to this very building and how we operate as a Parliament as well. As it stands, although New Zealand\u2019s law references the importance of respecting journalistic privilege and also the case of police searches, it does, as identified, contain a gap in the law currently about how this important protection is actually guaranteed. Although the Search and Surveillance Act 2012 and also the existence of journalistic privilege with reference to protections that are laid out in the Evidence Act 2006, there is no clear description as to the processes to be followed when this issue of privilege arises, and that is what this bill does. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThis bill addresses the gap in the law and the specific issues highlighted in the Hager case by reinforcing the Evidence Act and the Search and Surveillance Act in recognition of journalists\u2019 duty to protect their sources from disclosure. This is a good bill. I look forward to the submissions. I look forward to the next process, and I commend it on behalf of my colleague Louisa Wall to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Justice Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221beb0c620c774cd3851d634b13d29efb\u0022\u003EPlain Language Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022124f4a04700d4449b4c4a774b42383c0\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u00220192e88040c34c16a5c7477637f70d3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220192e88040c34c16a5c7477637f70d3f\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Plain Language Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Governance and Administration Committee to consider the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe Plain Language Bill promotes the use of plain language in official documents and websites. The purpose of the bill is to improve the effectiveness and accountability of the Public Service by requiring their communications to be clear and accessible to the public. I would like to begin by acknowledging the original sponsor and drafter of this bill, my colleague the Hon Chris Hipkins, and former member of this House Charles Chauvel, who assisted with the drafting. This bill was inspired by the Plain Writing Act 2010 in the United States. The bill in the United States requires the US Federal Government to write all new publications, forms, and publicly distributed documents in a clear, concise, well-organised manner that follows the best practices of plain language writing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EAs a new MP, I was asked to take on this bill, and there is a reason that I was delighted to do so. Fifteen years ago, I was a fresh, young graduate starting my professional career in a small public sector agency in Wellington called the Leadership Development Centre. I was given a role in communications, despite having no formal training in this type of work. Instead, I had spent quite a few years at university, where I had learnt to pad out my essays in order to reach the required word count. My boss, Bruce Anderson, who was a pedant and a former teacher of English, used to red-pen my letters and documents, and I soon learnt the importance of brevity and clarity. I was sent on some plain English courses with an organisation in Wellington called the Write Group. Now called Write Ltd, the team at Write, led by founder Lynda Harris, work with organisations to make their written messages clear. The training they gave me helped undo the habits I had developed at university and gave me the writing tools I needed to communicate clearly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EOne of the criticisms often put forward against plain language is that by using plain language, we dumb down our communications. This is actually not the case. The best way to explain why plain language is so necessary is to use a real-life example. This one comes from the New Zealand Transport Agency\u2019s 2017 annual report: \u201CTransform the Transport Agency establishes a deliberate change management approach to successfully transition the Transport Agency to the refreshed strategy and the new ways of working. It drives improved organisational effectiveness through tenacious alignment of strategy to business planning, resource allocation and performance measurement. It embeds our new DNA and the shift required to ensure we are customer focused, collaborative, curious, and seeking innovation and value for money in all we do.\u201D In other words, \u201CWe are going to improve our customer service and spend our money carefully.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI could easily fill a full 10-minute speech with examples like that one. While there are some funny examples, there is a serious side to this bill. The Plain Language Bill is important because clear information from Government organisations is a basic democratic right. The bill will make it easier for members of the public to engage with public sector agencies. New Zealand is at its best when we can all understand and easily participate in our democracy. Every day, Government agencies are engaged in communication with the public. When Government agencies are explaining services, benefits, or how to comply with requirements, they should use plain language and avoid jargon. Plain language that the intended reader can easily understand after one reading is the aim of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EAs an electorate MP, I\u2019ve seen and read documents, brought to me by constituents, that are difficult to understand. I\u2019m sure that this is an issue that every MP in this House has experienced. I am particularly aware of the need for letters and other written documents to be easily understood by people who have English as their second language. For example, migrants who are seeking to obtain visas or New Zealand residency have the right to receive letters from Immigration that are easily understood. I recently had a journalist ring me and read me a letter that a migrant with English as a second language had received from a Government agency. It took the journalist and I about three goes to figure out what the letter said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThis bill will make a real difference to how our Government agencies communicate with the public. The Plain Language Bill requires a reporting agency to use plain language and ensure that all relevant documents for which it is responsible use plain language. A relevant document means a document that is necessary to obtain a service or file a tax return, provides information about any benefit or service, or explains to the public how to comply with a requirement the Public Service administers or enforces. The definition of \u201Cplain language\u201D in the bill means language that the intended reader can easily understand after one reading and is clear, concise, and well organised, and follows recognised guidelines of plain language writing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe Public Service Commissioner may issue guidance on how reporting agencies may comply with the plain language requirements under this Act. The commissioner will be required to consult with reporting agencies when developing plain language guidance. Agencies will be required to appoint a plain language officer, who will have responsibility for training agency employees, dealing with complaints or requests from the public, and ensuring that the agency complies with the law. Members of the public will be able to raise concerns about documents with the plain language officer. This is an important component of the bill. If a member of the public receives a letter that is difficult to understand, they will be able to raise it with the agency\u2019s plain language officer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe bill also requires agencies to report to the Public Service Commissioner on their compliance and progress using plain language. No later than six months after this Act comes into force, a reporting agency must report to the commissioner on compliance with the bill. Agencies will then be required to report annually to the public sector commissioner on their compliance. There are some things that are specifically not included in the bill. Nothing in this bill affects Te Ture m\u014D Te Reo M\u0101ori 2016, the M\u0101ori Language Act 2016, or the New Zealand Sign Language Act 2006. This is an important distinction to note. My bill is not designed to undermine the importance of te reo M\u0101ori or New Zealand Sign Language as official languages of Aotearoa New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI must apologise to all those who have written to me asking for my bill to include our local councils. While this bill does not include local councils, I would encourage councils to strive to include plain language guidance in their documents. Since my bill was drawn, I\u2019ve received a number of supportive emails and messages from people working in the plain language sector or who have worked in Government agencies and been frustrated with the language used. Plain language experts in New Zealand have expressed their excitement at the bill being drawn from the ballot. I received the following email from a constituent who was appointed to a voluntary board of a Government agency in my region, and here is what she said: \u201CThe paperwork was littered\u2014absolutely littered\u2014with acronyms. At a meeting, I got fed up with it all, and the response was to offer me the acronym dictionary. Yes, there was such a thing.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EAs this bill progresses to select committee, I am keen to hear from members of the public about how this bill will improve their lives and their interactions with Government. I am also keen to hear from plain language experts about how we can make the law work better. It is a privilege to be able to guide this small but important bill through the House, and I thank my colleagues for their support. I commend the Plain Language Bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00223c8a23a3af934b518889de7321827c12\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c8a23a3af934b518889de7321827c12\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00226fe454a655924a96bea35466ce2e0ad3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226fe454a655924a96bea35466ce2e0ad3\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I was doing my best not to laugh during that contribution. Look, I feel sorry for the member who\u2019s sponsoring this bill, Rachel Boyack, because she\u2019s a diligent and conscientious and hard-working member who has been landed with one of the stupidest bills that will come before the Parliament this term\u2014I mean, it really is. You just have to read the bill that she\u2019s proposed to realise some of the stupidity that the Parliament is now going to have to waste its time dealing with at the Governance and Administration Committee, as I\u2019m sure the bill is going to end up there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ENow, I remember when this bill was drafted, because I was working in the Hon Gerry Brownlee\u2019s office at the time, and one of my jobs was to monitor the legislation that backbench members of the Opposition were putting forward. And suddenly, one day, the Plain Language Bill appeared in the members\u2019 ballot, in the name of the now Hon Chris Hipkins. And I remember thinking, \u201CWhat on earth is this? The Plain Language Bill?\u201D I remember reading it, and this was about 11 years ago now, and I remember thinking, \u201CThis is crazy.\u201D I kid you not, the bill proposes that reporting agencies\u2014so Public Service agencies; the entirety of the civil service\u2014and Crown agents, so that\u2019s NZQA, the Tertiary Education Commission\u2014there\u2019s a whole list of them; you can look them up in the Crown Entities Act. We\u2019re talking about thousands of people working at different agencies. The bill literary proposes that every reporting agency has to appoint a plain language officer\u2014a plain language officer; \u201C1 or more individuals\u201D. Their job is to educate agency employees regarding the requirements of the Act\u2014and it\u2019s worth noting that the Act is literally 11 clauses; so that won\u2019t take very long\u2014deal with complaints or requests from the public regarding their compliance, and ensure the agency complies with the provisions of the Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo all of the Public Service is going to have to spend time finding plain language officers inside the civil service, jobs-worthy schemes\u2014it\u2019s like a make-work scheme for civil servants and public servants inside the Public Service. I mean, it\u2019s ridiculous enough that every corridor of every department in every building in Wellington has to have a fire warden and all the rest of it, and then endless meetings to discuss all that stuff, but, no, no, now we\u2019re going to have to have, literally, plain language officers, who, no doubt, will have sort of monthly meetings to sit around and talk about how they can make one acronym into elongated words, or something like that. I mean, it\u2019s just actually comical. So Rachel Boyack has had this bill landed on her, and I don\u2019t believe her when she says, \u201CI\u2019m really excited the bill\u2019s been drawn. I\u2019m really excited about it.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ELook, I know how this works, right? To the Labour backbenchers, I know how this works. Here\u2019s how it works: you\u2019re in Government, you\u2019re not allowed to do anything controversial from the backbench, because, if it was controversial and it was a good thing to do, the Government would be doing it. If it\u2019s a good bill and it should be advanced by the Government, a Minister will do it, right? I know that\u2019s how it works; it\u2019s totally understandable. So Government backbenchers have to come up with bills that are discreet, small, make no difference whatsoever, but are just controversial enough that they might indulge the support of the House and make their way to select committee. And, basically, in Government we used to call them \u201Cballot stuffers\u201D. They\u2019re bills to stuff the ballot that won\u2019t get in the way of Government Ministers actually doing their work. I know that\u2019s how it works, because that\u2019s how we ended up the left luggage bill that caused a lot of mirth and derision in the last Parliament. So I know that\u2019s how it works, right?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EAnd this bill is a classic ballot stuffer. It\u2019s a bill that Chris Hipkins has dreamt up in Opposition 10 years ago\u2014and then, by the way, he took out of the ballot for quite a long time, probably because he one day picked it up and looked at it and went, \u201CWell, actually, I\u2019m a serious political figure, and I want to be a frontbench Minister in the next Labour Government. Is it really a good idea to put to my name a bill that requires the appointment of plain language officers and, without any enforcement mechanism whatsoever, says that a whole swath of the Public Service have to issue six-monthly reports to the Public Service Commissioner on whether or not they\u2019re using plain language or not, and requires training to staff on plain language and all sorts of other stupid, waste of time, jobs-worthy ideas?\u201D So Chris Hipkins said, \u201CActually, I think I\u2019ll just take a rain check on this one. I\u2019ll put this one in the bottom drawer and, when we get into Government and I\u2019m on the front bench, some poor sap backbencher is going to end up with this bill.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EAnd now here we are; Labour\u2019s won Government\u2014and, by the way, this wasn\u2019t in the ballot, as far as I can recall, in the last term of Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223990a36f08834fdca26f2caa54742dae\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022359c6a1e4f334cc4888524fcd72f359f\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, it was? Well, that\u2019s even worse. It was. He actually did. And so here we are: Rachel Boyack wasn\u2019t in the last Parliament, she\u2019s become an MP, she\u2019s won the marginal seat of Nelson\u2014congratulations. Here she is in Parliament. She hasn\u2019t come up with an idea for a member\u2019s bill, and they\u2019re doing the whip-round in the Labour caucus and Rachel Boyack has drawn the short straw and picked up the Plain Language Bill. It\u2019s been put into the ballot, and I reckon she was secretly sitting there and going, \u201CI really hope that bill doesn\u2019t get drawn, because then I\u2019m going to have to turn up and pretend that I\u2019m excited about it, and I\u2019m going to have to put out all these press releases and say it\u2019s a great idea. Oh, I hope it doesn\u2019t get drawn.\u201D And then it got drawn. And now here we are, on a Wednesday night, coming towards the end of the year, debating and spending thousands of dollars of taxpayer money debating this stupid piece of legislation that\u2019s going to go to committee. And now we\u2019re going to have the Governance and Administration Committee\u2014I don\u2019t know how busy they are, but they\u2019re going to have to indulge this endless rigmarole of this stupid bill. I\u2019ll make a prediction right now: the bill will not pass into law, because eventually the Government is going to come to its senses and Ministers are going to realise it\u2019s a complete waste of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWhy is it a dumb idea? Firstly\u2014firstly\u2014it is not needed. I mean, if Ministers want the civil service to engage in plain language writing in documents that go out to the public, I\u2019m not opposed to that, obviously; I\u2019m in favour of simple, clear, and concise writing. You do not need to pass a Plain Language Act to make that the reality; in fact, it\u2019s likely to have the opposite effect. We do not have to waste Parliament\u2019s time passing legislation to say that that is the law. There are endless ways for Ministers to do that. They can write letters of expectation. They can write various statutory documents that go to a variety of the Public Service agencies we\u2019re talking about here. They can write letters of expectation to the chairs that are involved or to the Public Service chief executives. They can just actually direct it, and I don\u2019t know if this story\u2019s public or not, but it\u2019s about to be: when Gerry Brownlee was the Minister of Defence\u2014I think this is on the public record\u2014endless briefing notes with acronym soup and he said, \u201CWell, this is pointless. You\u2019ve got 15 different acronyms on one page. You\u2019ve got to sort this out.\u201D And he just made them sort it out. That\u2019s what an effective Minister can do. You see, this bill is not needed\u2014that\u2019s the first point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe second point is there is no enforcement mechanism in here. And Rachel Boyack says \u201COh, it\u2019s going to make a real difference. We\u2019re going to enforce plain language.\u201D How? There\u2019s nothing in there. It\u2019s just a series of feel-good statements. It just means that we have to have a plain language officer. Every reporting agency has to have one of them. They have to educate people. They\u2019ve got to deal with complaints. They have to make reports to the Public Service Commissioner. Oh, we\u2019ve got to issue guidance! The Public Service Commissioner can issue guidance on how reporting language may\u2014not \u201Cmust\u201D by the way; it\u2019s not a \u201Cmust\u201D. It\u2019s not a didactic imperative; it\u2019s a \u201Cmay\u201D. So they\u2019ve given a little bit of discretion. How generous of the member to give some discretion to the commissioner! I reckon the commissioner will choose to do so, though. The commissioner may issue guidance on how reporting\u2014and that\u2019s it. It\u2019s literally 11 clauses. The first four are the perambulatory ones\u2014the title, the commencement, the purpose, the interpretation, and it binds the Crown. So, actually, in reality, it\u2019s six clauses. That\u2019s it. It\u2019s only, like, four pages. It\u2019s a 3\u00BD-page, 4 if you\u2019re luck, bill. There\u2019s no enforcement mechanism, there\u2019s no way of making language more accessible and cleaner and simpler. There\u2019s nothing in there. There\u2019s literally nothing in there. There\u2019s no enforcement mechanism. What is the penalty for the poor Public Service officer who writes a briefing note that the Minister doesn\u2019t understand? What\u2019s the penalty? What\u2019s the Minister going to do? Ring up the Public Service Commissioner and say, \u201CMr Smith, I got this briefing note and I did not understand it. You need to punish him or her.\u201D I mean, is that what\u2019s going to happen? No, obviously it\u2019s not what\u2019s going to happen. It\u2019s ridiculous. There\u2019s no enforcement mechanism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s not needed. There\u2019s no enforcement mechanism. It\u2019s just a make-work scheme inside the Public Service. Frankly, the Public Service have better things to do with their time than spend their life coming up with plain language documents or plain language officers and reporting up to the plain language commissar inside the Public Service agency they\u2019re talking about. They should have much better things to do with their time than that. This bill is one of the stupidest bills to come before Parliament. We will oppose it because we oppose over-burdensome regulation, including for the Public Service. Rachel Boyack is a hard-working and diligent MP, but I feel sorry that she has ended up with this dog of a bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022c98183840cf74eed94afcbb628acc32e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c98183840cf74eed94afcbb628acc32e\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Speaker. Wow! I rise to support this piece of plain language legislation. And I guess, in listening to our previous speaker, when he\u2019s used words like \u201Cstupidity\u201D and \u201Cdumb ideas\u201D, I\u2019m not sure what school he may have gone to, what university he may have gone to, but, for some of us, we need plain language, not because of our intelligence but because we live in a different world. Not a world that\u2019s based in Wellington, not a world that\u2019s based here in Parliament or in universities or in high-class boarding schools, but people who just live real lives. So I find it offensive that he would say that this is a stupid piece of legislation, and I believe that we need to ensure that we have plain language wherever we go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ENow, language is always evolving, always changing. It\u2019s responding to human needs. And I\u2019m guessing that Chris Bishop doesn\u2019t want to respond to human needs, he just wants to have his own little beltway life with his own language and way he operates. But as language evolves and as it spreads around, it creates different areas and different spaces, and, whether it be in law, whether it be the marketplace, whether it be learning or religion, whether it be in politics or in the Public Service or in storytelling, it\u2019s always reshaping and reforming to fit in with what\u2019s going on within the culture of the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ENow, having language means you\u2019re able to communicate, having language means that others can understand you, and hopefully you can understand others\u2014I didn\u2019t quite understand that last speech, but that\u2019s OK. But language, when you have it, becomes more powerful when it\u2019s understood by a wider community. Power grows when we can communicate with more people in more spaces. The question I have this evening, and the question I have for Chris Bishop is: \u201CWho is the language serving when it comes to our Public Service, when it comes to what\u2019s happening within Government\u2014who is the language serving?\u201D And often it\u2019s serving the bureaucrats, the politicians, it\u2019s actually not serving the people. And for me, I came into this House to serve the people and ensure that people understand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ENow, I have a quote here from an accessibility activist who talks about \u201CLanguage is not only a key component of communication, it is also a key aspect of identity. The words you choose to use become part of who you are. Through language, you become part of the community that speaks that language \u2026 The more you master a language, the more powerful your connection with your community [becomes].\u201D And I think, when I read this quote, I think about my early life in community development. I remember speaking with a young woman and she was going through a Government department, and she actually wanted to fess up because she was living with her partner and she hadn\u2019t declared it. But she was talking to me one day, and I said, \u201CWell, good, fess up. It\u2019s always nice when you do that. Why haven\u2019t you already?\u201D And she said it was too hard, and I said, \u201CWhat do you mean?\u201D \u201CWell,\u201D she said, \u201CI\u2019ve got this form I\u2019ve got to fill out and I don\u2019t understand it; it\u2019s 13 pages long. That\u2019s why I haven\u2019t bothered declaring that I\u2019m living with my partner that I shouldn\u2019t be living with and getting this payment.\u201D So we went through it, the complexities of it, because it wasn\u2019t in plain language as it should be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EAlso in my work with young people\u2014and how often we are negotiating different services within the Public Service\u2014and often it\u2019s sitting down with them and spending time, which I\u2019m not sure if the previous speaker has done in terms of working through different forms when you\u2019re interfacing with Government agencies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ESo for me, this isn\u2019t stupid legislation. This is a brilliant idea because, for me, the people I connect with and work with need plain language, because language is power. And often we like to retain that power. That\u2019s why we don\u2019t want, maybe, this piece of legislation to pass, because maybe, in this House, we might lose some of our power. I want to thank Rachel Boyack for sponsoring this bill. I look forward to seeing it go through the first reading and go to select committee, just to ensure that all people in Aotearoa New Zealand have access, all people in our nation are able to understand, to communicate, and that the language of this House, the language of the Public Service, serves everyone in our nation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u002231d8349bc0384668bc27ff5794c8aaef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231d8349bc0384668bc27ff5794c8aaef\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a real pleasure to rise and take a call on behalf of the Green Party in support of the Plain Language Bill. While she may not have written the bill, I would like to congratulate the member Rachel Boyack for getting it drawn and for this opportunity to marshal it through the Parliament, because that is a really special experience.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThis is a piece of legislation that the Greens believe will make a real difference. I understand that the National Party member, Chris Bishop, talked about this as a \u201Cdog of a bill\u201D. Well, I would see it as a golden retriever of a bill: a really cute, fluffy bill that actually is going to be committed to supporting New Zealanders in being able to find their way around our systems. That is something to celebrate, being a bit of a dog fan as I am. I do just feel like Mr Bishop\u2019s speech was just a little bit mean, to be honest. It was pretty kind of blunt, and it did feel to me like, as an ex - university debater, he was throwing his privilege around like a giant red flag\u2014even to the point of saying it\u2019s bad enough we have fire wardens. Personally, I can\u2019t quite imagine feeling safe in a place where there are not fire wardens; I thought that was pretty much a basic. And saying that \u201CMinisters can do this; this is not required by legislation\u201D: I can\u2019t quite imagine what Chris Finlayson\u2019s direction for plain language would look like, because, I\u2019ve got to say, his speeches in the House were not my understanding of plain language.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThe point of this bill is to get the consistency and to recognise that plain language writing is a skill. Anybody who has managed to get through our university system has been trained in writing in a particular way that is actually inaccessible for most New Zealanders, and most of the people in our Public Service come out of our university system. I remember that translation of going into the community and standing aside and sitting beside people, and young people in particular, and trying to talk with them and explain things after I came out of university. It was a massive education for me. To think that a Minister can provide feedback and, suddenly, the entire Public Service is going to have the skills to be able to write simply, in a way that is understandable for people with English as a second language or whatever their literacy skill is, is magical thinking. It requires active support to learn that skill, and that is what this bill is recognising. It really is quite seriously true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI will say, as well, that this bill\u2014we are very supportive of it, because it\u2019s critically important that New Zealanders understand their rights and their obligations, and our Public Service is the conduit and the communicator of those things. We need the interactions between people and the State to be really as easy to interact with as possible. A lot of marginalisation comes from a sense of disenfranchisement through not understanding what on earth the Government is doing or is expecting of them. We hear from a huge number of beneficiaries who have been sanctioned\u2014that they\u2019ve been sanctioned and they didn\u2019t even know that they weren\u2019t allowed to do whatever it was that they were sanctioned for. We are not\u2014the evidence is very clear\u2014communicating to people in a way that they understand what people\u2019s rights are and what we expect of them in return, and we need to step up to do that better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI do think this bill possibly could go wider. And I really feel for, particularly, you know, friends who are deaf, who are really struggling with the lack of access to New Zealand Sign Language, the fact that we don\u2019t have enough interpreters, that at Parliament hardly ever do we get that interpretation happening, let alone our Public Service organisations providing easy-read material. Most of our political parties are not doing that either. We need to step up for everybody in this country, because it\u2019s core to feeling like we are part of this team of 5 million. We have to be able to understand each other. This is a good start, and the Greens are happy to support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00221637ef0b92e14d22ac737b8585486e73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221637ef0b92e14d22ac737b8585486e73\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Speaker. I seek leave to table the 10 pages of guidelines issued by the Hon Chris Finlayson in 2014, headlined \u201CFinlayson embarks on a jargon jihad\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6f2149308d647a8adc6270961f7bb1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6f2149308d647a8adc6270961f7bb1f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that course of action. Is there any objection?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209f27815f34346c4aa72cafb8376deb8\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222162780adc3e4e3f9c4cf8102616a15d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f579ec6d6d145bab39e7210986e2a1a\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: I think she said yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1dd4a29204841809ca28ec4d9606fb2\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Does Labour want to take its call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232676e02eb4b4ec3b31f6af5d5864581\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: I think she said yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221834d37cf81d4cc5972bcc2a32a70257\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Oh. There is objection. So Labour doesn\u2019t want its call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022 data-id=\u0022de9007a9aa5948609e7f19b0d7045e01\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de9007a9aa5948609e7f19b0d7045e01\u0022\u003EDr JAMES McDOWALL (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It is a pleasure to rise this evening on behalf of ACT to speak on this bill. So the purpose of this bill, according to the text here, says, \u201CThe purpose of this Act is to improve the effectiveness and accountability of the Public Service by requiring their communications to be clear and accessible to the public.\u201D Well, that sounds like a great idea. I think we probably needed that on 4 October when the Prime Minister announced the Government\u2019s phased approach to reducing alert levels in Auckland, which is apparently going to give way to a traffic light system anyway. So you never know, actually, this bill could do some damage\u2014it could be a problem for the Government, especially as the wheels of the well-oiled PR machine slowly start to fall off. I also can\u2019t quite tell if this is a good or a bad thing for taxpayers in the long run, with Labour spending something like $300 million since 2017 on spin doctors. They might even need more with this, so a little bit of a worry there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003EDefinition in the bill: \u201Cplain language means language that\u2014(a) the intended reader can easily understand after 1 reading;\u201D. Well, thank you for clarifying that, and also thank you to the member sponsoring this bill for pointing out that this doesn\u2019t include New Zealand Sign Language. That was an important point that we needed, I think, somehow. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003EIn Part 2, clause 6(1) \u201CA reporting agency must ensure that all relevant documents for which it is responsible use plain language.\u201D The problem with all of this with simplifying language is that we can create different meanings and different interpretations and all sorts of different standards from Government, and the last thing we want to do is cause confusion. In clause 8\u2014Chris Bishop has already landed on this a little bit\u2014the plain language officers: \u201CA reporting agency must appoint \u2026 plain language officers\u201D. What a fantastic sounding bureaucrat, honestly! And no later than six months after this Act the reporting agency must report to the commissioner its appointment of a plain language officer. And I just think, \u201CWhat, on every Government agency, and how many will they actually need within six months?\u201D I mean we\u2019ve got a bit of a skills shortage right now, don\u2019t you realise. It might actually be quite hard to find people to do this. So, I mean, just imagine the amount of unnecessary red tape that this bill, if it becomes an Act, will cause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003EI just wanted to also touch on the issue around migrants and English as a second language. Look, I think that\u2019s a well-meaning thought, but, frankly, I think this is a solution looking for a problem. I\u2019ve worked with migrants for years, not just here, of course, but also in an immigration law firm, and I\u2019ve read countless letters from Immigration New Zealand. Admittedly they are a little bit convoluted at times, and that\u2019s being generous, but this bill will not solve that. Those one-on-one or transactional letters from Immigration New Zealand are usually case officers or immigration managers to clients. There is no way this bill, with its plain language standard and its plain language officers, is going to change that. There are thousands of letters and emails sent every day. I think it\u2019s just such a nonsense argument to use the letters from Immigration New Zealand to justify this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003EBut in any case, this bill has been floating around for years. I kind of hoped that it would come here to die. And I agree with Chris Bishop, I think this is just one of the stupidest bills I\u2019ve ever read. We oppose this bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022288783df-ade6-42d2-bd21-06ffa87dedf8\u0022 data-id=\u0022759d2381c3304bcc971626ba146a36ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022288783df-ade6-42d2-bd21-06ffa87dedf8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022759d2381c3304bcc971626ba146a36ab\u0022\u003ESTEPH LEWIS (Labour\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise to take a call in support of the Plain Language Bill. I want to begin by congratulating my colleague and friend Rachel Boyack on having her first member\u2019s bill drawn from the ballot. I know, contrary to views expressed by members opposite, she is genuinely excited to have this bill drawn and I\u2019m genuinely excited to be supporting her on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022288783df-ade6-42d2-bd21-06ffa87dedf8\u0022\u003ESee, I remember back in my law school days\u2014where they do teach plain English there now\u2014and in the first year we were told that historically drafters were paid per word. It\u2019s how we ended up with many long, convoluted, and complex pieces of law that somebody in the street just can\u2019t understand without legal training or help. It\u2019s how we ended up with phrases like \u201Cnull and void\u201D and \u201Ccommon practice\u201D. Both words mean the same thing, either one would do, but why use just one when you could get paid for two!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022288783df-ade6-42d2-bd21-06ffa87dedf8\u0022\u003EThere are laws in effect today that were still drafted under those times, and I believe if you expect people to follow the laws, then they need to be able to read them, understand them so they know their rights, their obligations, and what\u2019s expected of them. They should be able to be understood easily at a glance with one read through by somebody in the street. I support this bill because it will go some way towards achieving that goal by promoting the use of plain language in official documents and on official websites.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022288783df-ade6-42d2-bd21-06ffa87dedf8\u0022\u003EAs the member, my colleague Rachel Boyack, said earlier, every day Government agencies are communicating key messages to people in our communities, to the general public. And when they are providing information about their services, as I said, individuals need to clearly know what their rights and responsibilities are. So that means that the onus is on those agencies communicating the messages to keep those messages clear, concise, and as simple as possible. That way, New Zealanders can easily understand and participate in our democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022288783df-ade6-42d2-bd21-06ffa87dedf8\u0022\u003EPlain language, as discussed tonight, is about using simple, clear, concise language that is well ordered and easy to understand. But take this sentence, for example, \u201CIt was a written notice by a tenant given pursuant to the lease agreement.\u201D It\u2019s much simpler to say, \u201CThe tenant gave notice under the lease agreement.\u201D See, that sentence has been shortened by five words and used words that are easier to understand without losing any of the meaning. There are lots of examples in official documents and on websites where multiple words are used where just one would be sufficient. For example, \u201Ca number of\u201D could simply be out as \u201Csome\u201D. Likewise, there are lots of examples of words which could be simplified in plain English standards: \u201Caccorded\u201D could become \u201Cgiven\u201D, \u201Cadjacent to\u201D could simply become \u201Cnext to\u201D, \u201Cadversely impact\u201D could become \u201Churt\u201D or \u201Charmed\u201D. You get the idea; the list goes on and on and on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022288783df-ade6-42d2-bd21-06ffa87dedf8\u0022\u003ELike many other MPs in this House, I too have helped many constituents who\u2019ve walked into my office struggling to understand the documents that they\u2019ve been provided with by our public sector agencies. That is why we need this bill. We need plain language so as our democracy is accessible to everyone in our communities. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u002269eb4efeaa344bbfacc4bc145d71bed8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269eb4efeaa344bbfacc4bc145d71bed8\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m not sure that the Opposition members understand the purpose of this bill. It\u2019s about creating a culture of plain language. That is clearly what has been missing in the Public Service. Official information is a way that the public can scrutinise us as parliamentarians and can access Government services. It is a democratic right. And what this bill does is it goes some way to busting the bureaucracy that so many of us in this House frequently complain of. I can\u2019t tell you how many constituents have come to my electorate in Taieri, needing support just to understand documents that are coming out of Government agencies\u2014important documents relating to housing, relating to immigration, to social welfare, to driver licences, there are so many examples I could give you. And these are not just immigrants who are coming, and second language speakers, these are also people with a good command of first language English who simply cannot understand many of these documents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EAs Jan Logie mentioned, plain language writing is a skill. And, in fact, I believe that the culture of unplain or complex language in bureaucracies is part of the risk averse nature that happens when officials are needing to be able to make sure they cover all their bases in advice to Ministers or to other members of this House. But that is not the right language to be using for constituents who need clear, simple advice that doesn\u2019t cover every caveat, that just simply says, \u201CIn order to do (a), you need to do (b).\u201D That is why that culture has emerged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThere is a desire to have plain language in the Public Service, but unless people within the service lead on it, unless there is somebody who actually takes that responsibility and leads, it won\u2019t happen, hence the need to appoint the officers. They need to take responsibility, they need to socialise it because a culture change cannot happen without socialisation, and people need to be trained. And yes, there is accountability, because they will be accountable to the people who write in and complain; they will need to respond when the plain English rule isn\u2019t followed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EMy colleague Glen Bennett very ably pointed out the real problem that this is trying to resolve. And it may sound trite, and I apologise to people at home who may feel a little belittled by some of the comments from the Opposition, because what this is about is that when complex language means that people don\u2019t understand, those people don\u2019t have access, and those who don\u2019t have access aren\u2019t included, and if they aren\u2019t included then we don\u2019t have a democracy that works. It also sends a very clear message to people from those communities that they are not welcome in governance roles; that the governance rules are only for the elite, only for the educated, only for the privileged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to commend my colleague Rachel Boyack for taking on this important bill and also for ring-fencing te reo M\u0101ori and New Zealand Sign Language. Those languages have their own mana, they have their own cadence, their own wairua. They don\u2019t need this bill, but we do, and we need it to make sure that our society is accessible and inclusive to everybody. The plain language of the sniggers and chortles from the Opposition tonight speaks for itself. It is the language of privilege and elitism. I commend this bill to the House and I am so grateful to my colleague Rachel Boyack for taking this stand. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002286d0594e2fe34691affe9ddbeaf287b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286d0594e2fe34691affe9ddbeaf287b0\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, this debate is interrupted and set down for resumption next sitting day. The House stands adjourned until 2 p.m. tomorrow. Good evening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 9.57 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20211020c199bedd4d954714beda782129bef245000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"