"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229e0304d9eb5540aeb163d1c894df64c1\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 26 OCTOBER 2021\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002241cf55fae5554b4cab6143d326bb6716\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 26 OCTOBER 2021\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c76133815fc64be2a7dc5800297660bf\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224f604120bafd4463b897e07774f2868d\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7128b180ded4c2da4e7afdacb540e9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7128b180ded4c2da4e7afdacb540e9e\u0022\u003EADRIAN RURAWHE (Deputy Speaker):\u003C/span\u003E E te Atua kaha rawa, ka tuku whakamoemiti atu m\u0101tou, m\u014D ng\u0101 karakia kua waihotia mai ki runga i a m\u0101tou. Ka waiho i \u014D m\u0101tou p\u0101nga whaiaro katoa ki te taha. Ka mihi m\u0101tou ki te Ku\u012Bni, me te inoi atu m\u014D te \u0101rahitanga i roto i \u014D m\u0101tou whakaaroarohanga, kia m\u014Dhio ai, kia whakaiti ai t\u0101 m\u0101tou whakahaere i ng\u0101 take o te Whare nei, m\u014D te oranga, te maung\u0101rongo, me te aroha o Aotearoa. Amene.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E[Almighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the Queen, and pray for guidance in our deliberations, that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom and humility, for the welfare, peace, and compassion of New Zealand. Amen.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e3814325d3e04137a8aef44dc2206685\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221de3f639bf7f479c803d412e0ee35263\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022d189479b64c3400080c0e4647bfca3d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d189479b64c3400080c0e4647bfca3d8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No bills have been introduced. Petitions have been delivered to the Clerk for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00221c51df113ea848baa288fa23e967714c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c51df113ea848baa288fa23e967714c\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EPetition of Michael Gibson requesting that the House change its Standing Orders to prevent a member of the Government reading from, or referring to, any written material when answering a supplementary question from a member of a party in Government\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Jenna Matchett requesting that the House review the South Wairarapa District Council\u2019s rates increase in the Long Term Plan (LTP) and align with the figures released in the 2021-31 LTP consultation document.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216f312add9fd4e8bbc08d59c8a4f10e6\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Is that Trevor\u2019s petition?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00220c534a3ee55842bbba3d57c460fe31c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c534a3ee55842bbba3d57c460fe31c3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Shall we refer it directly to the Standing Orders Committee? Those petitions stand referred to the Petitions Committee. Ministers have delivered papers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac103bcc1a7c49db9e73f24ab37bb90f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac103bcc1a7c49db9e73f24ab37bb90f\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EAnnual reports for 2020-21 of the Department of Conservation, Land Information New Zealand, Ministry of Education, and the New Zealand Geographic Board\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EStatement of Intent 2021-25 for the Department of Conservation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EMinisters reports on non-departmental appropriations for Vote Business, Science and Innovation, Economic and Regional Development portfolio, and Vote Education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022b32e1423b4ab46c69a6742bc64f30887\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b32e1423b4ab46c69a6742bc64f30887\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I present the annual report for the year ended 30 June 2021 of the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment. I also present the report of the Controller and Auditor General entitled Our observations on local government risk management practices. Those papers are published under the authority of the House. Select committee reports have been delivered for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3a98d7b5d914586889fb3c98c479824\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3a98d7b5d914586889fb3c98c479824\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReport of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee on the briefing on the commemoration of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee\u2019s 150th anniversary\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Petitions Committee on petition of Margo MacVicar\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Primary Production Committee on the petition of Daniel Todd.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002233c5571160b344e5844f8dbaf583ead9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002233c5571160b344e5844f8dbaf583ead9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The briefing is set down for consideration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002266139b4b1a0442c39d037646a716d11b\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c74bd43586c148258c0eb3263ba17a75\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022883a083c4fdf46a79e9c3faded2380b7\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00227b3970cc42714a3487bf5fe7bd861258\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b3970cc42714a3487bf5fe7bd861258\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What recent announcements has he made regarding economic support for businesses facing restrictions as a result of the Delta outbreak?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00221561f8b9a143443e8e6cb2a81f57c2e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221561f8b9a143443e8e6cb2a81f57c2e7\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E The Government has provided significant support to businesses and workers in response to the Delta COVID-19 outbreak. So far, we have paid out $4.8 billion approximately through the wage subsidy scheme and Resurgence Support Payment (RSP) since August when the outbreak began. We do know, however, that it has been particularly tough for those in Auckland, and, as part of the move to the new COVID-19 Protection Framework, we\u2019ve announced an enhanced business support package to help businesses through this transition. The core of that is a significant boost to the Resurgence Support Payment, moving to fortnightly payments at double the current rate, and the first of these will open on 12 November. Currently, the RSP is a three-weekly payment of $1,500 per eligible business and $400 for each full-time employee up to a total of 50 full-time equivalents (FTEs) or $21,500. For the payments starting on 12 November, this will be $3,000 per eligible business and $800 per FTE up to 50 FTEs, making a maximum fortnightly payment of $43,000. The wage subsidy will continue to be available on the current criteria while areas of the country are still in alert level 3, and the cost of providing both the weekly RSP, as it effectively becomes, and the wage subsidy is estimated to be up to $940 million per fortnight through this transitional period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b78321effca4ff2b861c0a2fa1c414b\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Why has the Government decided to use the Resurgence Support Payment to provide assistance under the new COVID-19 Protection Framework?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b95a4d96ae0a4f11939fb2ceb290048b\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The decision was made to use the RSP because it\u2019s the mechanism that gives the greatest flexibility. It\u2019s also an existing mechanism, which means it can be implemented quickly. The RSP is now, effectively, targeting Auckland businesses, with payments going to Auckland having grown to 70 percent of the payment from 40 percent when it was first paid out in this outbreak. This enhanced support will be paid fortnightly until Auckland has been able to move into the COVID-19 Protection Framework.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222aba6c7589b045f19decd9e8ce531892\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: What will happen to the economic supports when the new COVID19 Protection Framework is fully in place?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b32c05a0e43841cf90597b58730d70b8\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Cabinet\u2019s made in principle decisions on the financial supports that will become available when the framework takes effect, and the details of that will be confirmed next month, but as we said on Friday, some of those decisions we are able to announce now. The first of those is that a transition grant will be made available to support businesses, particularly those in Auckland, when they move into the new framework, and our planning is for this to be based on broadly similar criteria to the Resurgence Support Payment. Once the framework is fully operational across New Zealand, this will be the time to replace the current support schemes that we have with something that better reflects the new framework. We have said that, as businesses are able to operate as normal under the orange and green levels, there will not be across-the-board support. I will be proposing to Ministers financial support that targets the most affected businesses for when areas of the country are in red.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4755226fb3943a880955d99bf311a56\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Why didn\u2019t he make the increased resurgence payment available immediately to cash-strapped businesses rather than make it three weeks before they can even apply?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afd4b202cd9b43a28aab7e9fc81460cb\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: There is a Resurgence Support Payment opening for application this week, and so that happens on the 29th and then we move to the fortnightly payments as soon as possible after that, giving the effect of a weekly payment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c10a8381acc4e899122ba6d6fab8206\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Well, was the Minister aware that making the resurgence payment weekly was first floated by ACT on 6 September, and, if not, would he like to go on our mailing list so he can get some more good ideas for dealing with COVID?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb95a182e2f84a4eba0ac302c111ac44\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: While I am deeply interested in the views of the member, I don\u2019t follow each and every one of his press releases, and were I to have taken all of his advice over the last 20 months or so, I don\u2019t think businesses in Auckland would\u2019ve appreciated that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002207f7019c180b4385bd8c8928937738b3\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4b5335dfbac41f3bdf7f731c90b9c93\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4b5335dfbac41f3bdf7f731c90b9c93\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all of her Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3e7460771674052a42314df15070305\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3e7460771674052a42314df15070305\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. In particular, I stand by this Government\u2019s announcement on Friday on our next step in our response to COVID-19. The COVID-19 Protection Framework will provide a pathway out of lockdown and will allow businesses and events to open to those who are vaccinated in New Zealand. By setting a target of 90 percent fully vaccinated across each of the 20 DHB regions, we\u2019re balancing the need for New Zealand to return to some additional ways of life that we have not had for some time and do everything we can to ensure no one is left behind. We\u2019re supporting this transition with up to $940 million per fortnight in our business boost package and $120 million to accelerate our M\u0101ori vaccination rates, but the responsibility, of course, lies with all of us to continue to do all we can to support one another to be vaccinated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259658b41adf8462ea35e05c95fb5abe5\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: What advice has she sought regarding the mental health impact of keeping Auckland under lockdown for at least another four weeks?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223576abe407674add95dfc3bafa2fef46\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, of course, the length of time that will be spent in level 3 restrictions is dependent on a number of things. Firstly, we have set a target of each of the DHBs there reaching 90 percent. I note this morning that we are just 11,000 vaccines shy of reaching that 90 percent target for first doses. So, of course, the quicker that that is achieved, the quicker our second doses and, of course, the quicker that those level 3 restrictions will be removed. I note the member herself has not proposed anything earlier than 1 December. The second thing that it is contingent on, of course, is the outbreak itself. We\u2019ve still kept the step-downs available to us so that if we are able to ease in the meantime, we will continue to do so. To answer the member\u2019s question on mental health, I receive a range of pieces of information, both contacts made to things like our Youthline\u2014I\u2019ve recently received a report from the Child and Youth Wellbeing unit on the impacts of lockdown on children and, of course, I do receive information from the chambers of commerce and the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment, daily, on the hotline calls that they\u2019re receiving. So we know, of course, the strain across the board that restrictions place on people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230070d5d3f774d8d8f6eb4ac25de639b\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Does she accept that her Government\u2019s inability to produce something as basic as proof of vaccination means a million vaccinated Aucklanders are still stuck in lockdown with no end in sight?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216fad56db8ce4732bb86f89553fa3280\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e8d12d984344adab1220b39beca9679\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Why didn\u2019t she use the last 18 months to expand our ICU capacity, and is this failure the reason we now need a traffic light system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6cce146edc247ceb59ad14cc4937226\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7ce383792f04678bf92c8ed8f73ff43\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Do we currently have enough ICU capacity to manage COVID?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ccc9d1fd80e4fa7bd5072caa0ea97cf\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a944dbf181a147acb026b66db8fe9e48\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Will she apologise for her slow vaccine roll-out and failure to prepare for an outbreak that caused thousands of small businesses to close?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c11698b68236462e8e93c0ebfe4281a2\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, no one\u2014no one\u2014wants to have the impacts that COVID is having on our communities, whether it be the health of those who have experienced COVID, those who\u2019ve experienced the loss of life within their families, or, indeed, the impacts on the economy. But relative to other countries, of which none have come away without an impact being felt, of all countries, New Zealand has fared amongst the best: some of the lowest cases in the OECD, lowest hospitalisations, lowest death rates, and an economy that has fared extraordinarily well, and that is because of the choices that we\u2019ve made, and that will need to be the case going forward. Our ambition, through high vaccination rates, is to still minimise and protect the general population against the impacts of COVID-19, particularly when we know that even with a highly vaccinated population, if it\u2019s not properly managed you can still have impacts on business and, of course, people\u2019s lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3d816fe0a00450287f60a0d1cd26e36\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: So how does the traffic light system announced last Friday interact with the Auckland roadmap steps system announced just 18 days earlier; isn\u2019t it true the Government is just making it up as it goes along?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab4bd811d36d4cdba144210aa38dae84\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely not, and if the member had listened to either the announcements on the day or even the reference I made in my answer just now, then that would have become clear. The traffic light system has been designed to work in the environment where you have a highly vaccinated population, because it does remove some of the things that we\u2019ve used previously when we haven\u2019t had the tools of vaccine. It, for instance, uses much more localised lockdowns if you have a situation with low vaccination rates in a population, but it does not use things like alert level 3, and so that is why it can only really be safely used in a highly vaccinated environment. In the meantime, as I\u2019ve just said to the member, the step-downs continue to be available to us, but we assess those against both the outbreak as well as vaccination levels.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215dce2c561c049569ed742fbb7c3b1da\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: How does she think the New Zealand economy is going to respond in the future to the 4.9 percent increase in inflation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221dba718912eb4d3baaacdca8f11fa3bf\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we\u2019re not alone in having experienced that. The likes of Canada and others are seeing similar impacts, and of course, you can point to, in many ways, the impacts of COVID, particularly the pressure that it\u2019s putting on supply chain. Most speculate, or many speculate, that this is not something that will be long term. But in the meantime, we need to do what we can to ensure that we are meeting the needs, particularly, of those lowest-income New Zealanders as they feel the impacts of COVID-related increases in the cost of living.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e45d653619c6449396be846c8c411b06\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014COVID-19\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022930a18c8ff5449f5977fdb00570ae23e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022930a18c8ff5449f5977fdb00570ae23e\u0022\u003EGINNY ANDERSEN (Labour\u2014Hutt South)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for COVID-19 Response: What recent announcements has the Government made on the management of COVID-19 in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022431c6482cee34027aba16045047ed51a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022431c6482cee34027aba16045047ed51a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister for COVID-19 Response):\u003C/span\u003E Last week, the Prime Minister announced the new COVID-19 Protection Framework and shared the plan with New Zealanders that will help to keep us safe from COVID-19 into the future. The new protection framework sets a pathway forward that rewards the rapidly growing number of New Zealanders who have been vaccinated with more freedom to go about their lives safely. The simplified framework has three levels: green, orange, and red. Vaccine certificates will provide greater freedoms at each of the levels. There will be extra public health precautions built in at higher levels to minimise the impact of COVID-19 and suppress the spread of that virus. Our current alert level framework and an elimination strategy have kept us safe and our economy functioning while we got vaccinated, but now as more Kiwis are protected by the vaccine we need a new plan that moves away from lockdowns as the primary defence against the virus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224774266f19dd47058fe82eb54d61c011\u0022\u003EGinny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: What will the new protection framework mean for people and businesses in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2bc7ac5914d48c4b5f5ccabf455efce\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: For individual New Zealanders, it will mean more freedom. For businesses, it will mean being able to open up and get back to doing what they love doing with a greater degree of freedom. Businesses that choose to open to the unvaccinated will face greater restrictions in order to suppress the virus amongst those most likely to have it. Fully vaccinated people will be able to reconnect with their friends and their families, they\u2019ll be able to go to bars and restaurants, and do the things they love with greater certainty and confidence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c22687254e5a4e5fba52e4eb8a9eceb9\u0022\u003EGinny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: When can New Zealanders expect to transition to the new framework?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223760d4c20bd4512acbaaa253d1a8169\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve set a target of 90 percent fully vaccinated across each district health board region as the milestone to trigger moving the country into the new system. That target ensures a good regional spread across the country and it will help us to address equity issues within each region. Our modelling shows that having 90 percent of eligible people fully vaccinated provides a high level of coverage, and that will help us to keep New Zealanders safe, slow and control outbreaks, and assist public health authorities to do their jobs. Auckland will be able to move sooner; the plan provides a clear path for Auckland to move out of lockdown as soon as 90 percent of the eligible population are fully vaccinated across the three DHBs. There are around 11,000 vaccines to go for every DHB to hit the target for their 90 percent first doses in Auckland. When that turns into double digits, that\u2019s when the new framework will kick in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002252016a17920449a388d7b83f992d7a04\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u00227e858597fdb24ba59a8fc797749c1edd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e858597fdb24ba59a8fc797749c1edd\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What responsibility, if any, does the Government take for the Consumers Price Index reaching 4.9 percent in the September 2021 year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022f92a04a463b84cacbf68ab7fe645e172\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f92a04a463b84cacbf68ab7fe645e172\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Responsibility for the Consumers Price Index (CPI) is shared across different areas of Government depending on what aspect the member is referring to. For example, responsibility for keeping the CPI at a reasonable level over the medium term is part of the mandate of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand (RBNZ). The RBNZ has operational independence in the way they perform their role; however, I would note that they have tended to put more weight on measures of core inflation rather than risk over-reacting to transitory factors that might not be a good indication of the state of the domestic economy. However, if the member is asking whether Government decisions have led to recent increases in inflation, I would point out to the member that commodity price increases and global supply disruptions are affecting all economies around the world. This is evidenced by the August 2021 inflation across the OECD being at an annual rate of 4.3 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227246efd9f4884bba85f549adb5c9422f\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Does he accept spending billions of dollars outside of Budget allowances and direct COVID support has pushed up inflation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223f9899966654c48ac6d226a833330c4\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: What I\u2019d accept is that the support that the Government has given to New Zealand businesses, workers, and communities has meant that we have had one of the strongest economic responses to COVID-19 at the same time as having one of the lowest mortality rates and hospitalisation rates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279b54bc6a1ca43c0aafcb783891e88d6\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Is he concerned that economic commentators are now predicting that inflation will get worse before it gets better, with price increases particularly notable in petrol, food, and housing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d414a994883c42cf9bd43a33899b36a8\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: In all three of the areas that the member mentions there, there are global supply chain disruptions that are causing significant impacts. There is a large debate taking place among economists around the world as to the persistence or the permanence of inflation. Those supply chain disruptions are ones that we continue to work on, but they are, in fact, ones that are global.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9e7e7509bd14e9abac7a69c2e6a4ac3\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Does he still believe the inflation increases for June and September will \u201Cwash out\u201D as he said in July, and does he agree that when they do, even higher rates are likely to wash in?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ba9b6b26bc7405982df634d52e0bfe7\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, there is significant debate among economists around the world about the persistence or the permanence of these levels of inflation. That will emerge over time. What I do know is that on this side of the House, we remain committed to supporting New Zealanders through COVID-19.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcc0f0167890479696ca4a3306423106\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Well, does he accept that the economy is not in a good position for many New Zealanders experiencing rent increases of up to 7.8 percent over the last year and wage increases that pale in comparison with inflation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1a4dfc5b4234c17a5c23c9c729d82fc\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if we actually look at the data that is in the inflation statistics that is in the member\u2019s primary question, I\u2019d point out that the annual rent increases were 3.2 percent\u2014not the number that the member gave\u2014and 0.7 percent for the quarter. It is challenging for people at the moment in many parts of the economy. That\u2019s why the Government has stepped up and supported them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f2c8921c7bdf4c5fb29f7410f35d7d2e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Small Business\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u002290582da5c6f149dc9917c79fad75dee6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290582da5c6f149dc9917c79fad75dee6\u0022\u003EBARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Small Business: M\u0101l\u014D ni, Mr Speaker. What announcements has he made about advice and mental wellbeing support to help Auckland businesses during the transition to the new COVID19 Protection Framework?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u0022e43cad9585a84f05a63b32ab035b58f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e43cad9585a84f05a63b32ab035b58f7\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH (Minister for Small Business):\u003C/span\u003E Last Friday, along with the Minister of Finance, I announced a $60 million package for business advice and mental health support to be made available to help Auckland small and medium sized enterprises (SMEs) through the transition period to the new COVID-19 Protection Framework. There are three parts of this package: firstly, a $20 million business advisory service, of up to $3,000 per business, with no co-payment from the business, to enable them to receive expert advice and support; secondly, $30 million in grants for SMEs to implement business advice, with up to $4,000 per business and, again, with no co-payment from the individual business. These two parts will be delivered by the Regional Business Partner Network run by Auckland Unlimited, the Auckland Council\u2019s economic development agency. The third part is up to $10 million additional funding to support mental health and wellbeing initiatives for business owners and employees. This will be co-designed with the Auckland Chamber of Commerce and the Employers and Manufacturers Association.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c36fbbddeecb474c9adbddf39ebb654a\u0022\u003EBarbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: What are the benefits of this package?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220411c2f78eb74952b80dccbc090c3070\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: The package is what the Auckland business leaders and representatives told us they required to help deal with the uncertainties caused by the Delta outbreak. This package will help better position SMEs to seize future opportunities and productivity gains when restrictions reduce, and improve their ability to operate in the meantime. We estimate that up to 10,000 Auckland SMEs will be assisted by the business and advisory support and that up to 7,500 Auckland SMEs will be supported by the implementation assistance. By delivering the package through the Regional Business Partner Network run by Auckland Unlimited, the Government is partnering with existing proven providers on the ground so assistance can be delivered far sooner than if we had to start from scratch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225300a49d2a5144f5a8bcde821350901b\u0022\u003EBarbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: What feedback has the Minister seen on this package?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b07f3069b1934b84b7fdcb267911eda9\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: Brett O\u2019Riley, the chief executive of the Employers and Manufacturers Association, has said\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201CThe $50m for the RBP to provide 10,000 businesses with mentoring and advice to help them recover and grow into the future is an excellent practical step to support our businesses and economy.\u201D Michael Barnett, the chief executive of the Auckland Chamber of Commerce, has said\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201CThe $60 million package for the Regional Business Partner Programme including $10 million for mental health support, will be a lifeline for many and help build resilience and a recovery strategy.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222579c864a1514468b7bae5b6ebfad21e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Oceans and Fisheries\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u00221711d2e53a2040e8bcb96f2dd7f6a0b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221711d2e53a2040e8bcb96f2dd7f6a0b2\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries: What advice, if any, did Fisheries New Zealand provide him on potential risks to M\u0101ui dolphin from increasing the total allowable commercial catch for snapper off the West Coast of the North Island?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022 data-id=\u002252aaa13ea3124e6a9b3f424dbc7d5c21\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252aaa13ea3124e6a9b3f424dbc7d5c21\u0022\u003EHon KIRITAPU ALLAN (Minister of Conservation)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries: I received advice from Fisheries New Zealand that extensive trawl and set netting prohibitions are in place to manage the risks of commercial and recreational fishing to M\u0101ui dolphins along the West Coast of the North Island. The measures are part of a suite of actions under a wider threat management plan, which include creating and extending set net bans and extending trawl closure areas. Together these provide a high degree of certainty that the current risk fishing has to M\u0101ui dolphin mortality is close to zero. If I receive evidence to the contrary, I can impose further restrictions. I also note that the rules include a provision allowing me to act immediately to impose further restrictions if a single dolphin is caught in the M\u0101ui dolphin habitat within the West Coast of the North Island.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bbb3233d0564b35a249aa887062cf95\u0022\u003EHon Eugenie Sage\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement to former Prime Minister Helen Clark that, \u201CI don\u2019t want to be part of a Government that oversees the extinction of a species.\u201D, if so, why has he taken a decision that Fisheries New Zealand considers may increase the risk to M\u0101ui dolphin?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ece0b29e478d45298226843d71b67114\u0022\u003EHon KIRITAPU ALLAN\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries, I reiterate that the measures provide a high degree of certainty that the current risk fishing has to M\u0101ui dolphin mortality is close to zero. In addition, if I do receive evidence to the contrary, within the parameters, I can impose further restrictions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfa074ac55ae47e0b2285d1190333278\u0022\u003EHon Eugenie Sage\u003C/span\u003E: What advice, if any, has he sought from his ministerial colleague the Minister of Conservation about the latest Department of Conservation survey, which reportedly shows there may be just 54 M\u0101ui dolphins remaining, and will he consider further measures to protect critically endangered M\u0101ui dolphins from being caught and dying in fishing nets?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022998aaa6ad7aa478c9b96956ac6f20920\u0022\u003EHon KIRITAPU ALLAN\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries, I can confirm that I am in regular contact with the formidable Minister for Conservation and we engage closely in discussions about a range of issues. I\u2019m aware that the new M\u0101ui dolphin estimate is 54, but, as said before, I am confident that the advice that I have received is that there is a high degree of certainty that there is currently a close to zero risk that fishing has to the M\u0101ui dolphin mortality rates, and if I do receive evidence to the contrary, I can impose further restrictions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ee3dca30526416abe8a20cadd22ddf0\u0022\u003EHon Eugenie Sage\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Minister receive any advice on whether the increase in allowable snapper catch and potential risk to M\u0101ui dolphins will affect New Zealand\u2019s seafood exports to the United States in the light of Sea Shepherd\u2019s court action in the US Court of International Trade?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a88939eb51b4ec4a2b68ea5a20100e1\u0022\u003EHon KIRITAPU ALLAN\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries, I don\u2019t have any information to hand that can assist with that answer, but I\u2019m happy to seek further information if she so requires.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022124dd9b27f4a4a0b871aab2b10a79e7d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I just want to check on that one, whether the Minister answering the question is saying that or is she saying that Mr Parker is saying that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229665038f01584321998b603642b509ff\u0022\u003EHon KIRITAPU ALLAN\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of Minister Parker, I don\u2019t have any information to hand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a7be297b79640e4b13bac044a77bb87\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: OK. I think I\u2019ll interpret that as the Minister answering on behalf saying she does not have that information, but if the member wants to put it down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e880bf01fcb44839bdc1a57bc886354e\u0022\u003EHon KIRITAPU ALLAN\u003C/span\u003E: Happy to assist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5a035e4b82541aa97fc54f169af924a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bc728cf5a054986be42997160f35bb9\u0022\u003EHon Eugenie Sage\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Minister respond to the call of the International Union for Conservation of Nature to \u201Curgently extend dolphin protection for M\u0101ui and Hector\u2019s dolphin.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228656c41942bd4c93b946fe9f23801fd5\u0022\u003EHon KIRITAPU ALLAN\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries, I\u2019ll reiterate that to date, we don\u2019t have any information that has been provided that the dolphin mortality will increase. It is close to zero. I have the ability to make amendments and impose further restrictions if there is any evidence to the contrary that this is indeed required.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c52fd66382334507ab2104166bd8bd36\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014COVID-19 Response\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00222b0e9d490d904947bc77dd66deeda587\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b0e9d490d904947bc77dd66deeda587\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for COVID-19 Response: On what dates, if ever, did Cabinet authorise the development of COVID-19 vaccination certificates, and on what date will vaccination certificates be available for New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00227b9a31f0951e4bd6bd31f4341a4988a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b9a31f0951e4bd6bd31f4341a4988a2\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister for COVID-19 Response):\u003C/span\u003E Ministers have been considering formally introducing a vaccination certificate since the beginning of the year. Cabinet formally authorised the development of a COVID-19 vaccination certification on 5 July, as part of the reconnecting New Zealand work which was announced in early August. Since then, we\u2019ve been working through a variety of details and options around what a vaccine certificate might look like in New Zealand. I expect that vaccination certificates will be available from mid to late November.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022417369bbed6743668fa11ec12e8f3a00\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Why did it take the Cabinet until 5 July to authorise the development of vaccination certificates?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c206bc55f6b4908894a69619f58d90e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Up until that point, the focus of the vaccination certification work was primarily on the international border and on making sure that people could validate their vaccination records for the purposes of international travel. The work around considering how a vaccination certificate regime could be used domestically started before July, but it was formally noted by Cabinet in July.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221295c52ccd8f481fadf7cc08d28aff49\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Would a vaccination certificate regime be in place now if the Government had moved earlier than 5 July to authorise the development of a domestic vaccination certificate regime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022852ec081ef8349bb9644366ce56630a7\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The development of vaccination records and how people can access vaccination records has been ongoing throughout the year. I would note that the IT systems that that relies on were the very IT systems the member confidentially predicted in the House were going to be a flop\u2014like Book My Vaccine and the COVID Immunisation Register. They have been hugely successful, and I have absolute confidence that the team developing this will produce a very successful vaccination certificate system, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231f10565ada445e393c9d22306e66c55\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the Deputy Prime Minister, who stated this morning that should an eligible area reach 90 percent of double-dose vaccination before mid-November, \u201CIf in the worst of all worlds, if we had to, we could use a paper-based system for a period of time\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228992c879c8cb4db5b96c0711fd850cdb\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: People can access their vaccination records now. They can go and download them off the internet right now if they wish to do that, and if they wish to print them out to show other people that they have been vaccinated, they can access that now. But one of the issues is that people want to know that they have been validated, and so making sure there\u2019s a technological solution available that respects people\u2019s privacy and that allows for digital vaccination certificates to be validated is one of the pieces of work that is now in its final stages. Of course, though, one of the things that has to be resolved, and that did need to be resolved before this system could go live and be finalised, is exactly how they would be used. I can say, on this side of the House, we\u2019re very clear on how vaccine certificates will be used.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bf079252f17492188eab361952a92ac\u0022\u003ERt Hon Jacinda Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that some countries, throughout the use of vaccination certificates, have used a paper-based model, but what the Government is working to develop enables an app to be used for the purposes of scanning and a quick response code certification that is an accurate vaccination certificate, so enables large-scale events to use them much more smoothly?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5aafe4bd00144a391fd1cc39b994ae6\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I can, in fact, confirm that. Many other countries\u2019 vaccination certificate regimes aren\u2019t anything more sophisticated than the little card that people get when they go to be vaccinated. Our system will be significantly more advanced than that, and it will allow for the validation of someone\u2019s vaccine record. It would help to prevent vaccination fraud, in the sense of people passing off that they have been vaccinated, when they haven\u2019t been. Those things are important. People have the ability to produce evidence to show that they have been vaccinated now. Some people use the little vaccine cards already. And people can download their records off the internet today if they wish to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d12542eaf8643608f7b25473055919a\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Is he comfortable with every country in the OECD, plus Cuba and Burkina Faso, having a vaccination certificate available right now, and New Zealand not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248f2016ded4640a5bd858740de275be1\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if the member\u2019s setting a very low threshold for what a vaccine certificate is\u2014such as the little blue card that people get after they have been vaccinated being the equivalent of a vaccine certificate\u2014then he\u2019s welcome to make that claim. But that is about as sophisticated as many of those systems get. We\u2019re developing a system that will be a lot more robust, that will stop people ripping off the system and claiming they\u2019ve been vaccinated, when they are not. One of the things that we\u2019ve been working through, as I just told the member, is being very clear on where vaccine certificates will be used and where they won\u2019t be, and on this side of the House we have clear answers to those questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7ac2196fc8c4940a0d15da4754491fe\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Were all of the parameters of the vaccine certificate decided by Cabinet on 5 July, and, if not, when did Cabinet last meet to make decisions about the parameters of the vaccine certificate to be contracted out?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d9115acb78648b187072b89c7039a24\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: It depends what the member is talking about. If he\u2019s talking about the IT systems, those answers were dealt with some time ago; I\u2019m happy to come back to him with a specific date. If it depends on how vaccine certificates will be applied, Cabinet is still working its way through that process. That will almost certainly involve having to bring legislation to the House. I look forward to the member\u2019s support for that legislation, given the previous encouragement that he has given the Government, in this House, around issues around vaccine mandates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228f65a37d2f1e4211863bda6eb60e7385\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Health (M\u0101ori Health)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022 data-id=\u00229309545141fb432db950190e8ed48a0b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229309545141fb432db950190e8ed48a0b\u0022\u003ET\u0100MATI COFFEY (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Health (M\u0101ori Health): What recent announcement has he made about supporting the acceleration of M\u0101ori vaccination rates and supporting M\u0101ori communities to prepare for the implementation of the new COVID-19 Protection Framework?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232981d89669d4c56aa88946d4ebed714\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: He said it was M\u0101ori\u2019s fault.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cbc9878acdf4026ba1d61b06d761e1a\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: What was that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebed147cd17646439be1e77f7516c38f\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: He said it was M\u0101ori\u2019s fault. He was on TV saying it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u002248091c83126946ad8feb3c531c3c9017\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248091c83126946ad8feb3c531c3c9017\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Associate Minister of Health (M\u0101ori Health)):\u003C/span\u003E Is that another supplementary? Thank you, Mr Speaker. Alongside the Minister for\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022176370636ed345ffb81ca803f819f499\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! It\u2019s pretty hard to get a valid interjection before a member starts an answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245b730de972e4000b0739a2595be6f24\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: But I did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208df0ce05c4c40d68b6002827887a614\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m not sure that the member did at all, and he\u2019s testing me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bcf846c40a240a28b2b45253985ec24\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Alongside the Minister for M\u0101ori Crown Relations: Te Arawhiti, Kelvin Davis, and the Minister for M\u0101ori Development, Willie Jackson, we announced a further $120 million to establish a M\u0101ori Communities COVID-19 Fund, that supports M\u0101ori, iwi, and community organisations and providers to accelerate their responses and plans and to build resilience ahead of the planned shift to the new COVID-19 Protection Framework across two phases. Phase one will look to accelerate vaccine uptake amongst M\u0101ori in a very targeted way, and phase two will look to build wh\u0101nau and community resilience, and we expect to do this alongside iwi, hap\u016B, wh\u0101nau, and communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc1690196f2147c6a00b10da5282969b\u0022\u003ET\u0101mati Coffey\u003C/span\u003E: How does this funding announcement align with the new COVID-19 Protection Framework?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210b43faeb0834d83b57b48cfc0f1cc32\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: The introduction of the Government\u2019s new COVID-19 Protection Framework will increasingly rely on locally led responses to COVID-19 events. M\u0101ori COVID-19 vaccination rates need to increase within each DHB as we look to reach 90 percent coverage. Within this context, additional resources are needed to put extra efforts and incentives to our current approaches, led by our M\u0101ori leaders, providers, and community groups. As we\u2019ve travelled across the country and my colleagues have heard firsthand experience from our communities, it is important that these extra funds go towards the COVID-19 efforts. Phase two of the M\u0101ori Communities COVID-19 Fund will support the efforts to increase M\u0101ori vaccination rates and empower M\u0101ori to prepare for and lead an effective and safe transition. The timing of this announcement is also important, because, as we have seen through the COVID-19 lockdowns across 2020 and 2021, M\u0101ori wh\u0101nau and communities often also have compromised resilience due to enduring economic hardships.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022697efdeeb7544266aa65b7dc54b46ac6\u0022\u003ET\u0101mati Coffey\u003C/span\u003E: How can iwi, M\u0101ori providers, and M\u0101ori communities access this funding?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227ce27b1e61c452c9d4abf313e86beb9\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Access to funding for phase one is now open from today to the end of the year. The fund targets M\u0101ori and iwi community organisations, and we expect groups already engaged in vaccination mobilisation and outreach activities through Te Puni K\u014Dkiri, the Ministry of Health (MoH), and Te Arawhiti will be interested in accessing funding to maintain and build momentum, and we will work with them in the first instance. However, we will also look to work with other groups with funding proposals. Information on how to access the fund will be available on the Te Puni K\u014Dkiri website, Te Arawhiti website, and the MoH website. Access to funding for phase two is expected to be available in November 2021. This fund will support M\u0101ori-, iwi-, and hap\u016B-led communities to respond to the new COVID-19 Protection Framework, which in some cases will involve adapting and implementing existing pandemic response plans and resilience planning, and more information on how to access this fund will become available before November 2021.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222e9001482422439ea06bd8368aaabf18\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u00229ccf89afe8394c51ba911ec07333c630\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ccf89afe8394c51ba911ec07333c630\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all of her statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u00226f9fe782956347a3b4b6a098e3b811f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f9fe782956347a3b4b6a098e3b811f5\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. In particular, I stand by my statement that \u201CThe most important thing people can do to prevent themselves, children and vulnerable people getting COVID is to get vaccinated. However, it\u2019s important we have medicines to help those who pick up the virus to avoid having to go to hospital.\u201D That\u2019s why I stand by the Government\u2019s decision to ring-fence funding for the purchase of COVID-19 therapeutics, and I welcome the decision by Pharmac to enter an agreement to purchase 60,000 doses of an antiviral molnupiravir. Interim evidence from clinical trials suggests this drug may halve hospitalisations and deaths from COVID-19 and could play a central role in the treatment of mild to moderate cases of the disease in the future. As we evolve in our response to the Delta variant, I\u2019m pleased that we have one more highly promising tool to add to our tool kit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022805a9cb302484a4fb0ba2623114483bc\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does she stand by her statement, \u201CWe have looked at all of the evidence, talked to experts, looked at modelling for our situation, and set a target of 90 percent fully vaccinated for each DHB in New Zealand.\u201D; and, if so, has she received any modelling on what day that 90 percent target in every DHB is likely to be reached?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eaf3a7b0c6ae40c8a56d465dbd4cde25\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: To answer the first half the question, yes. The second half of the question\u2014it\u2019s obviously easier to make predictions based on those DHBs that are closer to the 90 percent on their first dose. So, obviously, with Auckland, there\u2019s been some suggestion, of course, that it could be late November, early December. As I just said today, on Friday, we were 16,000 doses away from hitting the 90 percent for first dose. That\u2019s now down to 11,000. So, as you can see, Auckland could hit that first dose target as early as this week. And then obviously, if you follow on with the three weeks for the second dose, then you can see the likely time frames.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022496b64a9ed8e4fda93bee865080957e2\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Why didn\u2019t the Prime Minister answer the question about the last DHBs to reach 90 percent full vaccination since her policy requires the whole country to wait for the last, not the first?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5461ea1f7e54cc5a5981f0966dfb974\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Because the member misunderstands. We have, of course, said that for Auckland, they will shift once those three DHBs\u2014and that\u2019s because that\u2019s possible. And that was very clear in the announcement: Auckland will go first once the three DHBs within Auckland reach that target, and that\u2019s because there\u2019s a hard border around Auckland that enables that. The second reason is, as I\u2019ve already outlined, for other DHBs, it\u2019s not as easy to make a prediction at this stage, but, of course, you can make some assumptions that notifying that the use of things like vaccine certificates may incentivise extra uptake. The other point that I would make is for those other parts of the country outside the Waikato region\u2014obviously, they\u2019re in level 2 at the moment; very different circumstances than what Auckland is living with. But my very clear message to them would be if we do have cases in those communities, while we have lower vaccination rates, we will still have to use more blanket restrictions. We want to be able to use the traffic light framework. The safest way to do that is to get vaccination rates up to the targets that have been set.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b673ad6f1564e59a37181431b0c8715\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any limit on how far past 1 December the Prime Minister is prepared to keep Auckland or the rest of New Zealand locked down; and if so, how long is it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f459782544d4bf2a0b807f5d6455e8d\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Again, I would highlight to the member that the majority of the country is actually in level 2. Of course, we have a very specific eye on trying to move Auckland as quickly as possible, and they, obviously, are within the range of being able to do that, you know, within possibly even three to four weeks. Again, we want to make sure that we\u2019re providing all the support we can to support the uptake of vaccination there and, in the meantime, we have also kept on the table the step-downs for Auckland as well so they\u2019re not totally reliant on that shift. The final thing I\u2019d say is Cabinet has said we\u2019ll have a check-in on 29 November to assess the progress of both the Auckland DHBs, if they have not already reached the target, but also the rest of the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a5f33f41b8e4f54be1b7fe08cd16f04\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Has she received any modelling on the level of vaccination required in the community before it is safe for managed isolation and quarantine (MIQ) to be shortened or skipped altogether in favour of home isolation for pre-departure tested, fully vaccinated Kiwis returning from overseas?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6c125a0ed3343f49a9aec7ae60b1a20\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: The modelling hasn\u2019t tended to get into that level of specificity, but what you will have seen from the modelling that\u2019s been released to date is that they all assume some level of check at the border that goes beyond just a pre-departure test. So even Te P\u016Bnaha Matatini\u2019s modelling does include ongoing restrictions at the border to try and prevent the ongoing seeding of cases in the community, even when there are cases already within that community. And that\u2019s just to stop the prevalence or the growth of outbreaks. We have already said, though, that as part of the reconnecting New Zealand work, we would move to shortened MIQ, we would move to self-isolation. We are trialling self-isolation over the coming weeks, and that enables us to work through some of the logistical challenges of ensuring that people are able to safely move from the airport to their homes without putting others at risk, but with a view to being able to use that tool more widely in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac59856dd959416389c92a801e1b1dfd\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Has she had any communications about travelling to Europe herself in the coming weeks; and does she anticipate she\u2019ll be able to take advantage of a shortened MIQ stay or home isolate by the time she returns?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d643022f97e4d40bf3acae18ef6454f\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: The decisions that we make on MIQ are made for the safety of New Zealand and for the context of all New Zealanders, not for any one individual.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002215d7e1dff03b4648b99a432117046a2f\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Local Government\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022e693d5bd2de54107bc86871784b1ae5a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e693d5bd2de54107bc86871784b1ae5a\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Local Government: Will councils be informed of the proportion of ownership and control they would have of the water entities that would be established by the Three Waters reforms; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022266ff7cf125843ad87935f62939b32c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022266ff7cf125843ad87935f62939b32c5\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Local Government: The Government has been engaging with local government on the three waters proposals for some considerable time, and also on the governance arrangements as part of that, and we will continue to do so. The Government\u2019s proposal is that local authorities are the owners of the entities on behalf of their communities. This proposal also includes legislative safeguards to ensure that these entities stay in public ownership.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244ce32394eda426ca966c2057ce75e38\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: How much of the proposed entity A would Auckland Council own and therefore Auckland ratepayers have control over?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddb7c2d3ae78480c8f996640ac90d742\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, I don\u2019t have the specific percentages in front of me but what I can say is that local authorities will be the owners collectively on behalf of their communities. It is also very important for us on this side of the House to make sure we protect the public ownership of these entities lest the National Party ever get in Government and try and hock them off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e317b1c2a494ae1a5b70b24a0803bde\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: How would ratepayers have direct influence over the water entities in the way they do now over their elected councils when in a typical entity up to 20 councils would be represented by just six seats on a regional representative group?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af4d8c6ee6af4ae28600e77d019d59bc\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, the member has answered her own question, that the regional representative group will cover the councils. It will also cover mana whenua in the area. The important thing for the member to consider here is whether or not she thinks that the way water assets in New Zealand have been managed over previous decades is adequate, and I think the member, of all people, would realise that water assets in New Zealand have not been well managed. The status quo is not working. If we stick to the status quo it will cost thousands of dollars on ratepayers, and the member just might want to think about the good people of Wellington who want their water to be better than it is now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a2baa5c77ed4f7483bef0c3ff7e6c0f\u0022\u003EBrooke van Velden\u003C/span\u003E: Were councils informed about the Resource Management (Enabling Housing Supply and Other Matters) Amendment Bill before it was announced, and, if not, did the National Party housing spokesperson lobby her to ensure they were informed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a60bdf9eeaf4715bee5901b65decc1a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think that might be described as a nice try but not a proper supplementary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022584d5c3e4eff45cf996f40b602c2acd1\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. If a question is asked about the practice of the Government informing local government, how is it not a valid question to put that in context and ask what the practice of informing local government normally is? How is that not a valid question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e6b9b72fb0244ffac8021fd1f6052a8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If the question was about the relationship generally between the Government and local government, then it is possible that that supplementary could have been worked in. This question was about water.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022180ddbea1e6a424ea92e97663d66d8d0\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister, as rumoured, announce plans this week to legislate to require all local authorities to give up their water assets for a \u201Cnationwide all-in model\u201D, as preferred by her Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022651cb615747440b0bd482bf39dd06c73\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. Is rumour now adequate authentication of material for the purposes of supplementary questions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022735d1332f53b4facb0859027ab3adab0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If I thought it was necessary for the substance of the question, then the answer would have been no. But, actually, it was a superfluous, unnecessary addition that didn\u2019t actually affect the sense of the question and therefore I chose not to be officious and rule it out. There\u2019s a new liberal, reasonable me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b3b2bcb4ae54bdf8074197ee4b0810b\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, the Government continues to work with local government around making sure that we involve as many councils as possible as we can in this proposal, and when it comes to rumours, if I believed all of the rumours that I\u2019ve heard around Wellington, the member would already be the leader of the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236cf15deae0646af8f9eaf4498b43fcc\u0022\u003EHon Eugenie Sage\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Government considering having more than four entities to provide better community-of-interest representation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228296ff63c23b463283626a3bb2b69859\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, we have put out our proposal for the four entities. We believe that that is the best aggregation of those assets to provide New Zealanders with the kind of water infrastructure that they need and deserve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e46c2b2402eb44148b9d82b9353cebcb\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Given the National Party\u2019s concern about the Government seizing the assets of local government, would the Government consider inviting the National Party to help to create a supermajority vote to ensure that that legislation can\u2019t be overturned and that those assets do actually stay in the hands of local government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286816d899f0b4304843216cd88a14c20\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, I am very confident that the legislative proposals that we have ensure that public ownership is guaranteed. I would invite the National Party to vote for that and reject their decades-long attachment to asset sales.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bbf24d09476d49179235788ecad5a523\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Conservation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u00223a29a597d9e743098cdb9410ef05b1bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a29a597d9e743098cdb9410ef05b1bd\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Conservation: What recent announcement has she made regarding Jobs for Nature funding for the Sustainable Business Network?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022 data-id=\u002292e8eba982954a729e9e117ab9e6d3e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292e8eba982954a729e9e117ab9e6d3e4\u0022\u003EHon KIRITAPU ALLAN (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E More good news, with respect to Jobs for Nature. Last week, I announced further Government support for New Zealand\u2019s longest-standing sustainable business organisation, the Sustainable Business Network, to open up opportunities for workers impacted by COVID-19 to jumpstart a nature-based career. The Partnering to Plant Aotearoa project involves collaboration with local community groups to undertake small-scale but valuable ecological restoration, supporting projects which provide positive impacts on conservation, keep boots on the ground, and aid in our economic recovery is what our Jobs for Nature programme is all about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022065c20273e5f4e31b71c5d258a46ca44\u0022\u003ERachel Boyack\u003C/span\u003E: What has the Partnering to Plant Aotearoa project achieved to date?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fea03a5e12c94966b1b8fb56be47f0f5\u0022\u003EHon KIRITAPU ALLAN\u003C/span\u003E: Since September 2020, the three earlier phases of the project have delivered $2.5 million in Jobs for Nature funding to 10 community-based conservation partners across the country, including in areas where there were significant jobs losses. More than 120 people have been employed through the project to date, connecting businesses struggling to keep their staff employed, as well as unemployed workers, to nature-based employment opportunities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229055000b716941269e579a118816d63d\u0022\u003ERachel Boyack\u003C/span\u003E: What will the next phase of the project aim to achieve?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da461d4329e443459ea1b1a8b7aa0ef9\u0022\u003EHon KIRITAPU ALLAN\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, fantastic question. A further $2.5 million in Jobs for Nature funding announced last week\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223dbfa6bd3485437f8d1256f5860cf86f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It almost got ruled out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279d260c0551c4177a82560e43278afaa\u0022\u003EHon KIRITAPU ALLAN\u003C/span\u003E: Well I think it\u2019s\u2014yes. Thank you, Mr Speaker. A further $2.5 million in Jobs for Nature funding announced last week will allow the Sustainable Business Network to provide two more partner groups on board, opening up 60 jobs across the country, delivering formal training outcomes, and generating more than 53,000 hours of conservation work. This work includes extensive planting, weeding, and fencing to improve habitat and food sources for native species\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207d673f629954285a2f70972bc0870d9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022290c6fab7dac4b7fb0ea32424fc1168e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Health (M\u0101ori Health)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022 data-id=\u002220d9e00d80994eb7b189e1c93a4bbfdf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220d9e00d80994eb7b189e1c93a4bbfdf\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Health (M\u0101ori Health): Is he satisfied that M\u0101ori health providers and commissioning agents have been well positioned to support the roll-out of the COVID-19 response for M\u0101ori?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u00223611ffa75c964f5098dc74cb1cbf2e72\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223611ffa75c964f5098dc74cb1cbf2e72\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Associate Minister of Health (M\u0101ori Health)):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c4eee052ca94c7da0579edd84f20d63\u0022\u003EHarete Hipango\u003C/span\u003E: Knowing that COVID first struck 18 months ago, why did the Minister wait eight months to secure accelerant funding to lift M\u0101ori vaccination rates rather than at the beginning of the vaccination roll-out, as advised to him by officials?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ddc8db3fdb144f48c12e7dd4c7765ca\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: To be very clear, we\u2019re talking about two different things here, and I can understand how the member might have got this wrong. So, if I can, let me be quite clear: the COVID response plan is the broader plan. That is the plan that, since the start of the pandemic, we have thrown significant support into the response that\u2019s led by M\u0101ori. With respect to the COVID M\u0101ori vaccine plan, that was the plan that was announced in the beginning of March of this year, and since that one announcement, we have made two further announcements to continue to support the M\u0101ori vaccine roll-out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5ba07cb3f414702974ad1dd29a44f2f\u0022\u003EHarete Hipango\u003C/span\u003E: So, as the Minister says that the Government has thrown\u2014thrown\u2014significant support to M\u0101ori, if it was so good, why are M\u0101ori vaccination rates lagging?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc8ab6b1c4b14d67a410813bcac3298a\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: As I\u2019ve travelled around to a number of DHBs and M\u0101ori health providers, it\u2019s now quite clear that the M\u0101ori communities we need to reach now to bring up M\u0101ori vaccination rates are communities that might not be connected to M\u0101ori health providers, acknowledging that 86 percent of M\u0101ori actually go through their GPs and primary health organisations (PHOs) and not M\u0101ori health providers. Secondly, many of them are in rural, remote, isolated areas, which means that in order to reach them, we must give more support, because if we actually supported our M\u0101ori health providers on a per-jab basis, then they wouldn\u2019t be able to meet the overheads to get into the rural, remote communities to reach the community that we\u2019re trying to target over the coming weeks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221436253b59da4e42a09a67a1b4c97f06\u0022\u003EHon Kiritapu Allan\u003C/span\u003E: On the basis of the conversations that the Minister had going around the country, and in order to support those rural and remote communities, what support has he provided to M\u0101ori providers like Ng\u0101ti Porou Hauora to support such initiatives?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228eaa90f67c4543079b4c5d04a2a0cbc0\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for the question. To support the already free mobile clinics that are utilised on Te Tai R\u0101whiti, over the past week, working alongside the DHB and M\u0101ori health providers, proud to announce that more support for mobile clinics across Te Tai R\u0101whiti has been expedited. In fact, my understanding is that the wheels of those clinics will be hitting the ground in the next 24 hours.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223747d6049da34e23ac0a8a16ce8f8a91\u0022\u003EHarete Hipango\u003C/span\u003E: So why did the Ministry of Health refuse to give M\u0101ori health providers data that would\u2019ve helped them increase M\u0101ori vaccination rates and keep the wheels of that bus going on?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c86ccb38f0a46f9b926017d243e15cb\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: The situation with data is that through the Ministry of Health, we are already providing quite a granular data set to M\u0101ori health providers. We are supported by PHOs and GPs to continue to give data, and good data, to M\u0101ori health providers so that they can reach those communities that we\u2019re finding it hard to engage with. But I will say this: a number of M\u0101ori health providers in this country have actually acknowledged something that we\u2019ve all come to realise now, and that is that even they have lost connection with a number of these communities over many years. They are keen to re-engage, and we\u2019re keen to support them to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c10b7194658648d3a6dfabc048119f17\u0022\u003EResource Management (Enabling Housing Supply and Other Matters) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002247a32e9b88e24c6d945629f814069be7\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022c14e74c944f747a081464481deb4c2da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c14e74c944f747a081464481deb4c2da\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Housing)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister for the Environment: I present a legislative statement on the Resource Management (Enabling Housing Supply and Other Matters) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227820d4afeac748ff847ca594aeed3234\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022813173770a9f4c0aa2a53a9d6d2aa799\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Resource Management (Enabling Housing Supply and Other Matters) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Environment Committee to consider the bill. At the appropriate time I intend to move that the bill be reported to the House by 2 December 2021 and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting (except during oral questions), during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, and outside the Wellington area, despite Standing Orders 193, 195, and 196.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ENew Zealand\u2019s housing crisis has not just cropped up in the last few years. It has been developing in our country over decades. New Zealand has simply not built enough homes in the right places to meet the needs of New Zealanders. This makes our housing increasingly unaffordable. Our Government firmly believes every New Zealander deserves to live in a warm, dry, and secure home. This bill deals with one of the barriers to boosting housing supply: overly restrictive council planning laws. Rules that have stopped density in our cities, have outright banned them, or have required lengthy and costly haggling with council in order to make them happen. We don\u2019t for one moment think that this is a magic solution to all our housing woes in New Zealand, but we know that this is one piece of the puzzle that we need to put in place if we are to address our housing crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ENew Zealand\u2019s housing shortage is being made worse in our largest cities by the limits on the number and types of houses that can be built. They can be confusing and they can be arbitrary, causing expensive delays as people struggle to meet the expectation of individual council consent offices. We can\u2019t just keep doing what we have been doing and expect different results. We can\u2019t just keep doing what we have been doing for decades and expect that the housing crisis will solve itself. This bill makes one of the changes that we need in this country to get more houses built.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EEvidence from here in New Zealand and overseas shows removing these rules results in more affordable houses being built. For example, a 2017 report by Superu and Sense Partners further found land use regulations contribute between 15 and 56 percent to the cost of housing in our cities. We need to do what many other countries have successfully done to deliver more housing supply and to cut the red tape to allow more density and affordable housing options.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWorking across this Chamber, working with the National Party on this bill delivered stable, enduring policy on housing density. This gives homeowners, councils, developers, and investors certainty around enduring planning rules and laws. Last year, our Government took a step to address these overly restrictive planning rules by introducing the National Policy Statement on Urban Development, known affectionately in some circles as the NPSUD. The NPSUD is a powerful tool in getting more houses built faster. It enables greater housing intensification in our cities and directs councils to better plan for future growth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EHousing intensification is important because it fosters more housing variety in areas with access to jobs, transport, and community facilities. It also makes the best use of existing infrastructure, amenities, and services like public transport, and bolsters the efficiency case in more investment in this critically needed infrastructure. It also helps to address climate change through changing transport modes to meet our emissions targets. Cost benefit analysis by PricewaterhouseCoopers on the NPSUD intensification policies found that 72,000 additional houses can be expected by 2043 in the tier 1 urban areas of Auckland, in Greater Hamilton, Tauranga, Wellington, and Christchurch. PricewaterhouseCoopers now considers this to be a conservative estimate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIt will be in 2024 when the impacts of the NPSUD really start to be felt, but we need to do more now so that we can get more houses built faster. This is why this bill tackles two things: process and density. The intensified, streamlined planning process creates a new process to cut through red tape and speed up the NPSUD implementation. The tier 1 councils will be required to use this process, so new rules and policies allowing for intensification are in their plans by August 2023, at least a year earlier than under the current timelines. The new process is based on the Resource Management Act\u2019s existing streamlined planning process, and key features include having a standardised set of process steps, using an independent panel to ensure a transparent and efficient submissions and hearing process, and removing all appeal rights other than judicial review. Primary decision-making sits with the council, with the Minister for the Environment settling any disagreements between it and the panel. We\u2019ve made sure the new process supports M\u0101ori participation and engagement. Councils must consult with iwi authorities before publicly notifying their planned changes, and all decisions must be consistent with relevant iwi and M\u0101ori participation legislation or joint management agreements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESecondly, the bill enables more medium-density housing across our main city. Tier 1 councils will need to change their planning rules so most of their current and future residential areas are zoned for medium-density housing. This allows more town houses and units to be built, but, importantly, it does not require it. This is enabling legislation that will give people in our cities more choice. The bill does this by introducing medium-density residential standards that provide a minimum level of development in these areas. What this means is people can, as of right, build up to three homes of up to three stories on up to 50 percent of most sites, without the need for a resource consent. Currently, most council planning rules may only allow for one home of up to two stories.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EA wider range of housing types will be supported, including additional units for extended family living and those popular with first-home buyers, as well as bigger and higher homes than under current plans. It also reduces the need to get a resource consent when building, extending, or renovating a home, making it quicker, cheaper, and simpler for people to do work on their own home. The standards work together as a package. They are designed to be truly enabling of medium-density housing, and the recession plane standard as a good example of this. The bill states buildings must not project beyond a 60-degree recession plane measured from a point 6 metres vertically above ground level along all boundaries. This has been done to ensure three stories can be built on a variety of site sizes, something that has not always been possible in existing medium-density zones.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EAdditionally, this bill also makes changes to the NPSUD to clarify some intensification requirements and to reduce the workload of councils. The NPSUD is very directive about the need for a minimum of six storeys in areas walkable from rapid transit and city metropolitan centres. These are often the areas where housing density has the most benefit and we get the most value out of infrastructure investment. What is trickier for councils, and what we heard in feedback from councils, is the requirement to assess demand and accessibility across all of their urban areas and then up-zone accordingly. No one has policy 3D, and in the bill this would provide odd results, such as enabling six storeys in high demand but relatively inaccessible areas. So to make it easier for council, the bill removes the demand assessment criteria.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo there is no silver bullet to solve the housing crisis that has been so many decades in the making, and it will take time to fix it, but these changes complement other pieces of the puzzle. Other initiatives our Government has under way to address the housing crisis, including a $3.8 billion Housing Acceleration Fund, $460 million\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002224192d015c544c7485d3c73f540ae1d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224192d015c544c7485d3c73f540ae1d4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member\u2019s time has expired. The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022b64f89bcf1cd468cbefa156f199e9853\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b64f89bcf1cd468cbefa156f199e9853\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (National):\u003C/span\u003E I stand today in proud support of the Resource Management (Enabling Housing Supply and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. This bill is a win-win. It enhances the rights of property owners today, and it will, in time, enhance the choices and options available to those currently locked out of property ownership in this country. It is a bill that is the product of an unusual bipartisan process in which we in the National Party have constructively engaged with members opposite to develop what we think is a pragmatic piece of legislation built on important principles. I want to acknowledge National Party leader, Judith Collins, who in January kicked off this process by writing to Prime Minister Ardern, acknowledging the sheer emergency we face in this country around housing. Judith Collins put to the Prime Minister that we will not make sufficient progress in addressing that emergency unless we amend the Resource Management Act (RMA), which so badly constrains development.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EIn late June, Ministers Woods and Parker wrote back to the National Party and took us up on the opportunity to work constructively together on amendments to get rid of some of those barriers, and here we are today. I want to thank Ministers for their bipartisan approach and I want to thank the officials and all of those who worked in a way that I believe will help the New Zealanders we are here to serve. I acknowledge fully those who say, \u201CWell, Nicola, you didn\u2019t come to Parliament to work with Minister Woods.\u201D And I would say, \u201CWell, actually, I came to Parliament to serve not only New Zealanders voting today, but those who will be here for future generations.\u201D It is incumbent upon all of us in this House to work together constructively where we can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThe important principles in this bill\u2014the first is: it cuts red tape. It comes from the perspective that Government regulation at all levels can prevent good outcomes. Whether it\u2019s well intended or not, it can create consequences which run contrary to policy goals. So this bill removes some of the resource consenting processes that currently add cost, time, and complexity for those wishing to add more dwellings, more homes to their sections. It removes Government regulation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThe second principle that brings National to support this bill is that it clarifies and enhances property rights by creating a default right to build. It takes power away from town planners and gives it back to the people they serve by clarifying the circumstances in which they can add homes to their own land. And, thirdly, at a principled level, this bill will create more competitive markets in which supply of housing is better able to respond to the demand for where that housing should be, that is: it will allow cities to grow and have more housing where people want to live.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ESo having established those principles, I turn to the mechanisms in the bill that will deliver upon them. The first is that I acknowledge that it\u2019s hitched to the RMA wagon and the RMA is not a piece of legislation that we on this side of the House love, but we acknowledge that the replacement process for it is long and, in the meantime, we must act. So this is a pragmatic response to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EIt first strengthens and speeds up the National Policy Statement for Urban Development, which already allows for some intensification in our cities. I want to acknowledge the National forefathers who first promulgated a national policy statement for urban development capacity, and which this builds upon. It brings forward the good things in that policy statement and then it creates a new medium-density residential zone. Now, I call these zones \u201Cthe right to build zones\u201D. These are the places where everyday New Zealanders can expect that, where it makes sense to do so, they can build granny flats, they can build apartments, they can build townhouses. It then allows for rezoning of land for greenfields development. It does that by allowing councils to adopt and incorporate private plan changes within their intensification plans and to progress them through a fast-track process. That fast-track process is incredibly important because, right now, even if councils want to zone more space for development\u2014and there are councillors and councils out there who want to do that\u2014they say to me, \u201CI am stopped by the delays caused by the appeal process and the planning process, which the Resource Management Act requires of me.\u201D This bill creates a mechanism to fast track through all of that. Finally, the bill clarifies, in the national policy statement for urban development, the requirements on councils in order to make changes. In simple words: it makes it easier for councils to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ESo I want to acknowledge those stakeholders in the community who have reacted so positively to these proposals. I quote Oliver Hartwich from The New Zealand Initiative who said: \u201CThis is great news for landowners. Rather than having to spend time and money navigating regulatory hurdles, they can focus on developing their property. It is equally great news for anyone wishing to buy or rent a home with fewer planning restrictions. More houses will be built.\u201D That is the critical thing here: by enabling these changes we will allow more homes of a variety of types to be built in the places where people wish to live.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ENow, I acknowledge the concerns that have been whipped up by some, and I want to address those. First of all, there will be design standards. Nothing in this bill changes anything in the Building Act. These homes will be required to be of the same quality currently required. Second, there are sensible development requirements in this bill, and, for those who are ignorant of that, I encourage you to look at Part 2, which sets out in quite clear detail the parameters in which new development can occur, including things like having a 50 percent site coverage maximum. Third, this bill does set out qualifying matters, which councils will be able to demonstrate in order to exempt some areas from development, whether for environmental or heritage reasons. The difference is: whereas at the moment councils have carte blanche to do that\u2014just about\u2014this bill will require them to prove why that is necessary and to set that out. The burden of proof has switched.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ETo those who have said, \u201CYes, housing is a crisis in this country. Yes, it saps the economic productivity of our country. It saps the hope of a generation of New Zealanders. It leads to a distorted market, and, yes, we need a circuit breaker\u201D but who have somehow found other reasons to oppose concrete progress, let me address those arguments. One of those arguments is that we already have enough zoned land. Now, if you\u2019ll forgive me, I\u2019ll give you an analogy, because at its simplest I would say, \u201CMore competition leads to more choice\u201D, and it is the same for land; the more land available for development, the better choices people can make about where development should occur. But I would give you an analogy of our education system, where it would be perfectly reasonable for the Minister of Education to say, \u201CThere\u2019s already enough room in our schools. There\u2019s already enough ability to build more classrooms and provide more spaces for pupils.\u201D I would say to the Minister of Education: \u201CThat doesn\u2019t mean you should rob people of choice.\u201D The market should be able to respond where people want to have their kids educated, and the housing market should be able to respond to where people wish to build homes. Where we can remove Government regulation, we can. To those who are concerned about infrastructure: I would put to you that a core responsibility of local government is to fund the pipes, to fund the footpaths, and to ensure for the growth in our cities that is necessary to them being flourishing processes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EI welcome the select committee process. I think it is very important that contributors from local authorities, existing homeowners, and existing interest groups have their say on this legislation. I also acknowledge, as the Minister did prior to me, that this is not a silver bullet. There is so much more work to do to enable more greenfields development, to encourage more investment in housing, and to ensure that more people get that first rung on the property ownership ladder within sight. But this is a great step forward. We must not let the perfect be the enemy of the good, and I am pleased to support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba6fc22e118b48e59956273fd248361f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fc22e118b48e59956273fd248361f\u0022\u003ERACHEL BROOKING (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m delighted to rise to speak on this bipartisan\u2014for National and Labour\u2014bill that we have in front of us today. I want to start by talking a little bit about my childhood, which was in a villa, and I\u2019m wearing a villa necklace today. A villa is a beautiful thing that I was pleased to grow up in, except, of course, it was Dunedin and there was no insulation, so there was a little bit of bronchitis there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EBut, over time, my parents have done up that villa. It is now insulated, there are heat pumps, and it\u2019s a lovely place to be, and if Dunedin was a tier 1 authority or if this villa was in Auckland, there\u2019d be no need for that villa to be torn down and replaced with these buildings. But it is an option for that villa owner to develop that land in the future. As the Minister said, this is \u201Cenabling legislation\u201D\u2014it doesn\u2019t require that sort of thing. Also, as the Minister said, this is important climate legislation, because, in fact, when we can all live close to public transport modes, where we have very good active transport, that is a good thing for climate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo what this bill does is two things\u2014two prongs, and we\u2019ve heard about it from both the previous speakers to some degree\u2014and both avenues really use zoning as a tool. So the first thing is that it\u2019s speeding up the implementation of the National Policy Statement on Urban Development\u2014the NPSUD, it\u2019s referred to\u2014and so that is to increase growth and densification. Then it\u2019s doing the second thing, which is inserting these new medium-density residential standards. There are some caveats\u2014as the previous speaker just spoke to\u2014about those medium-density residential standards, and they are called qualifications in the bill. They include things like open space, designations, and heritage orders. Now, these medium-density residential standards are found in new Schedule 3B in Schedule 2 of the bill, and, as the previous member said, that\u2019s a very good part of the bill to go and look at if people are interested in what this legislation is really enabling. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo what will happen is that if you can comply with those standards that are in Schedule 3B, then your activity will be permitted, which means no resource consent is needed. If they don\u2019t comply, then it\u2019s a restricted discretionary activity, which means a resource consent is needed, but the discretion of the consenting authority is restricted to that matter that\u2019s not being met. So some of the things in Schedule 3B include a maximum height of 11 metres\u2014so that\u2019s the three storeys\u2014a 2.5-metre front yard, 50 percent building coverage, and 60 percent impervious surfaces, along with a number of other factors as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ENow, these medium-density residential standards are only applying to tier 1 local authorities, so those are the councils of our biggest cities. They do not include\u2014relevant to my part of the world\u2014Dunedin or Queenstown. These are both tier 2 authorities, as is already set out in the existing NPSUD. However, should a tier 2 authority\u2014and these are set out in the bill\u2014have an acute housing need, then they can talk with the Minister and the Minister can make regulations to make them part of the system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo there\u2019s a streamlined planning process, and we\u2019ve heard about that. There are no rights of appeal, and the Minister can make final decisions if there\u2019s a difference of opinion between the independent hearings panel and the council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAs the deputy chair of the Environment Committee, I\u2019m very pleased that this bill is coming to us, and we will pay very careful attention to it. We look forward to the submissions, and I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00226bb9595a3bd44834a30e9e2512c0f743\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226bb9595a3bd44834a30e9e2512c0f743\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a rare thing for me to say in this House it\u2019s a pleasure to follow the deputy chair of the Environment Committee, but on this occasion I am, because I think she\u2019s very neatly and concisely outlined the broad detail of this piece of legislation. It\u2019s because on this side of the House we believe in the principle of limited government, it\u2019s because on this side of the House we believe it\u2019s about individual freedoms and choice, it\u2019s because on this side of the House we believe in competitive enterprise, and it\u2019s because we believe in sustainable development and strong families and communities that we have accepted the invitation that came from the environment Minister, David Parker, and the housing Minister, Megan Woods, to engage with the Government on a piece of legislation that will be quite instrumental in years to come in solving what has been a decades-old housing emergency\u2014some call it a crisis. Whatever you like to label it, it\u2019s a real issue for many, many New Zealanders who simply haven\u2019t been able to have an opportunity to buy their own home in some of our largest cities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo this is a piece of legislation that cuts red tape, as others have indicated. What it really does, in terms of National Party principles, is that it frees up the rights of property owners, existing property owners, to release the capital in that property which they own. Now, previously, and under current settings, that has largely been the preserve of professional developers. In order to build large properties with a higher density in our urban environments, actually you\u2019ve needed a very large bank account, the support of probably independent funders and equity providers, and then you\u2019ve had to have the fortitude of doing battle with the existing Resource Management Act (RMA)\u2014its rules, its complicated processes and regulations\u2014and then, on top of that, the myriad of planning and consulting and council interactions that have limited so much of the building development that has been needed in our cities. So freeing up that ability for mum and dad investors in property who already own a property to now develop further on their existing property, I think is a good thing. I think that speaks very much to National Party base core principles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EBack in January of this year, when the National Party leader, Judith Collins, wrote to the Prime Minister and offered bipartisan support, that was an initial very good step, because essentially what this bill does is it\u2019s very close\u2014it\u2019s almost identical, in fact\u2014to policy matters that we campaigned on in the last election. Judith Collins wrote to the Prime Minister, didn\u2019t initially get a reply, and then, when a reply came, it was vaguely dismissive and we thought, well, that\u2019s just politics. We had not forgotten about it, but we had certainly continued to move on. And then it came as something of a welcome surprise to receive letters from the Minister of Housing and the Minister for the Environment to myself and to our housing spokesperson, Nicola Willis. That was an offer to work collegially on some of the aspects that they had in their minds for some of the issues that are in this bill and to use much of what was in our policy and also a member\u2019s bill that Judith Collins had put into the ballot. So that was sort of the genesis of how it how it arose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ENow, many people listening and maybe watching on television will think that this is quite unusual, for the National Party and the Labour Party to be working collectively and collaboratively. But I want to assure members of the House and those that might be listening that, actually, sometimes very good things can happen when party politics is put to one side and a greater good is recognised and a need for positive change. I\u2019m sitting next to a colleague who had quite a bit to do with the zero carbon legislation, Todd Muller, and I was involved in that process as well. We saw there a situation where the greater good for future generations will be achieved by collaboration, cross-party support, and I absolutely am convinced that in years to come, in generations to come, this piece of legislation will achieve results for people of my children\u2019s generation and my grandchildren\u2019s generation that simply would not be possible if this legislation did not proceed through the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo we are supporting it, on this side, and we do so with a degree of pride and enthusiasm, because we\u2019ve felt for a very long period of time that the answer to much of New Zealand\u2019s housing emergency lies actually in our own backyards. That if we can get a greater density of building and homeownership in some of the larger sections in our metropolitan areas, well then, that\u2019s a good thing, because this piece of legislation is going to give people choice about design and style and size that they previously haven\u2019t been able to achieve, simply because of the red tape that\u2019s imposed by the RMA. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EWe saw the portent of this, actually, in the aftermath of the Canterbury earthquakes in Christchurch, where very similar enabling legislation was passed at that time for an urgent need that was a crisis\u2014Canterbury and Christchurch needed new homes built quickly. So the kernel of this model of fast tracking and removal of red tape\u2014actually, the genesis of it was back then. And then subsequently, my former colleague the Hon Dr Nick Smith tried on a number of occasions to achieve the same kind of result. Now, regrettably, he wasn\u2019t able to secure cross-party support in the way that has occurred with this piece of legislation. But that actually is a shame because we could have, I think, achieved some of the outcomes years ago\u2014well, probably at least a decade ago\u2014had that cross-party support been available then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EIf our largest urban cities are to become modern, future-focused, outward-looking cities, then they, by definition, need to become cities that have dwellings that provide for a greater population density. I think that\u2019s a good thing, and I particularly like the aspect of this legislation that enables tier 2 councils to engage positively with this process should they wish. Now, there\u2019s not a degree of compulsion, but should they wish\u2014and there will be tier 2 councils who I\u2019m sure will want to take up the options and the flexibility that this piece of legislation will provide. Again, I think that is a good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo, as the Minister has indicated, there are essentially two elements to this piece of legislation. They focus on the process, on the removal of the red tape, cutting through it, streamlining the RMA process. While the broader, larger resource management structural reform is going on as a separate piece of work, this legislation allows progress to be made while that other work is under way, and I think that again is a good thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThe second pillar of the legislation relates to density, where tier 1 councils will be given an opportunity to still protect heritage areas, still protect boundaries, still protect environmental, still protect a whole range of issues, but the basic premise is that this is a right to build. As a firm believer in property-owning democracies, I think that\u2019s to be lauded and to be congratulated. I think that the options for change, for desirable new dwellings of different shapes, forms, and sizes, will be something that will enhance the fabric of our large cities and even the tier 2 councils. Natural light protections will be maintained, environmental protections will be maintained, boundary protections will be maintained, height protections will be maintained, land coverage protections will be maintained, and that flexibility to build something attractive and desirable, but at a fair and reasonable price, without the costs and overheads of mind-bogglingly expensive red tape compliance will help us achieve those results. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI\u2019m looking forward to the select committee process. I\u2019m looking forward to hearing from a range of stakeholders who so far have been, I think, overwhelmingly supportive of this collaborative approach that I think will achieve terrific outcomes for not just the generation that is next behind us but for generations yet to come. So I welcome the first reading of this piece of legislation, and look forward to it making progress through the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022 data-id=\u0022df6d2cc756ee47619a7b3ba3e2a53abc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df6d2cc756ee47619a7b3ba3e2a53abc\u0022\u003ET\u0100MATI COFFEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can I start by acknowledging Minister Woods for her leadership in this space, and acknowledge that this is actually a problem that is a hangover from previous Governments, and, actually, it is going to be both of those major parties who are going to be working together to be able to fix this. The National Party, obviously, have agreed to put party politics aside, and so have we, to be able to solve the number one issue that Kiwis have sent us all here to fix, which is our housing crisis. They\u2019ve said, \u201CPut aside your party colours, just get on with it and do it.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EEverybody is going to look at this bill differently. I look at it for the region of the Bay of Plenty, the Waiariki rohe. In that area we\u2019ve got a tier 1 council: Tauranga. Tauranga are desperate for solutions when it comes to housing. In Rotorua, which is listed as a tier 2 council, they are desperate to apply for consideration to be part of the solution in building houses in that area, as well. Both of those councils need this to pass because not having this means that we will continue to have homelessness on a grand and increasing scale. Not doing this means that we are going to continue to have more need for housing in our community. Not doing this means that we are going to end up having more fights with all of those people that want housing but don\u2019t want it there and don\u2019t want it there and don\u2019t want it there and don\u2019t want it in their own backyards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EWhat I\u2019m really proud of, though, is that we\u2019ve run a M\u0101ori lens over this, too, and we\u2019ve made sure that the new intensification streamlined planning process supports M\u0101ori participation and engagement in this process. It means that councils are going to have to consult with iwi authorities as they prepare their plan changes before they notify them publicly. They\u2019ll have to consider that relationship that tangata whenua have with our cultures, our traditions, our ancestral lands, our water, our sites, our w\u0101hi tapu, and our other taonga are in there, too. Councils and independent hearing panels will need to address that relationship when they consider any kind of exemptions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EThere is a saying that \u201CYou can go faster alone but you can go further together.\u201D I look forward to working with Opposition members of the Environment Committee as we progress this through. I commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2d7004202d74a0ebdcb8893729ba602\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2d7004202d74a0ebdcb8893729ba602\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. This is a really interesting development and bill to be standing on, and I do speak in support of the bill, although I do think that there are a number of ways it could be improved and some additional changes that central government will have to consider in order for local government to be able to provide the infrastructure and amenity that will go along with increasing density in some areas. First I just want to say, as a planner, a qualified planner, I\u2019ve basically spent my entire career, pre-politics and during politics, trying to get rid of bad planning rules which prevented us from delivering the types of cities that we wanted, and so this is a step in the right direction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EWhat we want to see is more walkable neighbourhoods with small local shops, early childhood education centres, pocket parks, green space where appropriate, good public transport links, streets that welcome walking and cycling, and, of course, neighbourhoods that have a good supply of affordable, accessible housing. That housing can be provided in a way that reduces energy use and provides healthier, more comfortable environments. There are just so many win-wins in developing our cities in this way: it\u2019s cheaper for Government, it\u2019s cheaper for the people who live in those homes, it gets better environment outcomes. So that\u2019s the goal, and this is a really interesting way to start to free up some of those rules, but it really doesn\u2019t quite go far enough in some ways and in other ways it needs some additional work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo the Green party will be looking at a number of amendments, although I do note this is a very short select committee process. I hope the Government will be open to making some changes. I just want to acknowledge that for councils, they may not have sufficient time to prepare their submissions, and there are some really important considerations that need to be taken into account. For example, the reduced setbacks from the front are good, but, arguably, you could go further, and particularly if you want to get a reduction in site fragmentation and you want that nice streetscape environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s interesting: I\u2019ve heard some people comment in this debate that the Resource Management Act (RMA) is the problem. Zoning roles, and some of the bad zoning rules, pre-date the RMA; they\u2019ve got nothing to do with the RMA. I mean, yes, the RMA is the framework under which they are implemented, but they were implemented under the Town and Country Planning Act. A lot of the really bad zoning rules were adopted from the United States, like minimum parking requirements, which I was very happy to see removed by the National Policy Statement on Urban Development. Of course, removing those minimum parking requirements in and of itself has immediate benefits in terms of reducing the cost of housing, like, for example, in Minneapolis, when they cut their parking requirements, within a short period of time rents dropped from $1,200 a month to $1,000 a month, almost a 20 percent savings. Of course, that provides more choice for people not to have to own a car if they\u2019re living in a central city and they\u2019ve got good public transport options, they\u2019ve got a car share they can join. There\u2019s no need for us to build in the cost of car ownership to every single home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EBut back to the bill at hand and this legislation. So, to enable terraced housing without amalgamation of land parcels, with a more efficient use of space, we could reduce the front setback to reduce site fragmentation, and we could clarify that through existing provisions, owners of adjacent properties could mutually waive the side setback requirements, where this applies, and this could help enable some of that more contiguous development that we see that\u2019s really\u2014you know, it\u2019s just classic good design that we see in a lot of European cities, of, like, perimeter block - style developments that enable some semi-private public space that\u2019s shared between homeowners and then it creates that nice, walkable frontage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EWe think that it would be useful to consider providing development bonuses, enabling height to four stories where the planned dwelling location enables more contiguous green space. What we don\u2019t want is just a lot of little boxes plopped next to each other surrounded by very short, very small green space areas that aren\u2019t really usable by anyone. What people really want is access to a space that is a comfortable size, that enables their kids to play or for them to do some planting, that helps us achieve some of our goals around reducing stormwater runoff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EWe do need some provisions around protecting significant trees. That is a real concern the Green Party has had, that as we allow more housing into our cities, we still have a need for urban trees. You know, you can\u2019t just cut down one really old significant tree and replace it with a bunch of new ones. It\u2019s not the same outcome. So we do need some provisions for tree protection that make it really clear for landowners and developers what trees are protected. That helps improve certainty. We need to enable councils to have strategies and funding to enable the provision of green space, whether that\u2019s pocket parks or whether that\u2019s more significant green spaces. Our cities do need green space, and, again, that will provide multiple benefits in terms of reducing stormwater runoff and the pressure on our stormwater pipes, reducing the temperature of urban areas, providing a habitat for birds and other things that we do want welcomed into our city. So as we\u2019re confronting climate change, it\u2019s really important that we provide more affordable housing in our urban areas but also that we provide for green spaces and for trees in an appropriate way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EAn additional opportunity is to bring in bonuses for green roofs, for solar panels, for grey-water recycling, and other soft infrastructure that will, of course, benefit the city and benefit homeowners and renters. I think my philosophy would be we want our planning rules to make it easy to do the things that will have good outcomes, and not hard. Up until now, it\u2019s mainly made it difficult to do the right thing and made it very easy to do those stand-alone houses that are very car dependent, which, of course, just increases congestion, emissions, costs for everyone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EAdditional changes that we think should be considered are enabling more flexibility for papak\u0101inga developments on whenua M\u0101ori. I note there have been interesting developments in some Canadian states where the First Peoples are actually exempt from any sort of zoning, and they\u2019ve made quite different choices. I think that\u2019s something that we should consider here. Extending the applicable zoning to ensure that it\u2019s enabling mixed use: this is something that\u2019s been a slight bugbear of mine since the special housing areas. We need more affordable housing, but housing alone doesn\u2019t make a community or a neighbourhood or a city. The people who live in the houses need access to shops, amenities, schools, early childhood centres, transit, and it\u2019s really important that we\u2019re not just enabling a whole lot of housing in one area. As there\u2019s more people living in an area, it can support local shops, and, again, there\u2019s a benefit to the people living there, there\u2019s a benefit to the transport infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EWe saw that when Auckland city centre removed density requirements and allowed new residential buildings and got rid of minimum parking requirements in 1996, the population of Auckland city centre went from about 2,000, or less than 3,000 people, to over 20,000\u2014I think it\u2019s over 30,000 now. In just 10 years, it increased almost tenfold, and, of course, increasing that population in that small area meant that it became a much more attractive place to live, because up until that point the 2,000 people living in the city centre had no supermarket. They had no place to shop or to eat. The city centre was completely dead after 5 p.m. So it does show that as we allow more intensification in some areas, there is the potential for more of those amenities to support the people living in that area, but we need to make sure that the zoning rules are allowing that to come, along with the increased number of houses. So we\u2019ll be looking very closely at that in the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EFinally, one concern we really have is that this is enabling housing in the places where we need it most, where people want to live, that\u2019s close to amenities. I think there will have to be a real review and change to the way councils are able to charge development contributions, because this is a shift in risk. We\u2019ll be giving people who are building more houses more certainty about what they can build and where, but there\u2019s also going to be more risk for councils in terms of where the infrastructure might need to be provided. It\u2019s only fair that that\u2019s reflected in development contributions and that they\u2019re able to provide the infrastructure that\u2019s needed to support this housing wherever it does end up being built.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo the Green Party is in support of this bill, but we will be looking to make constructive changes. Above all, we welcome the consensus across the House from all those people who are really committed to seeing more affordable housing in Aotearoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u002264aed2349f364ef59a85c278e8ede8d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264aed2349f364ef59a85c278e8ede8d8\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of ACT in opposition to this Resource Management (Enabling Housing Supply and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. This bill was described by Nicola Willis of the National Party as coming from an \u201Cunusual bipartisan process\u201D. Well, that is entirely accurate. Neither Labour nor National has any credibility on the issue of housing. That\u2019s why they\u2019ve decided to abandon attacking each other. Like tired boxers at the end of a fight, they\u2019ve gone into a clinch. It\u2019s boring for the spectators but much safer for them. The problem with this extremely unusual bipartisan process is that the secrecy between Labour and National meant they couldn\u2019t tell anyone else they were doing it, and the result of that is that people like, say, Chris Darby, the chair of the planning committee at Auckland Council, wasn\u2019t asked, wasn\u2019t consulted, and wasn\u2019t even given a pre-announcement briefing before it went out, contrary to the Government\u2019s memorandum of understanding with councils. This total lack of consultation has meant that the policy is going to fail. Because if they\u2019d asked, they would have been told some very basic things. It\u2019s a shame the policy\u2019s going to fail, because the problem they\u2019re trying to tackle is a worthwhile one to try and tackle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve lived this policy issue in two countries for over a decade. For years I was the face of the Demographia housing affordability study\u2014the international study that appears in New Zealand, too. From sea to sea across Canada, I got up and appeared on Canadian screens and said, \u201CZoning is the big problem. If only we got rid of zoning.\u201D I even wrote a book at the time. It\u2019s got a chapter saying about as much as that. I returned to New Zealand and I talked to people day after day about housing policy. I talked to homeowners. I talked to people who want to be homeowners. I talked to people about the impact of not having good housing in New Zealand. I talked to principals of schools where they have different sets of kids every term because those kids are passed from auntie to uncle without secure housing and spend half the time living in motels\u2014on Great South Road, going to Newmarket School right now; or they would be if not for COVID restrictions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve also talked to people on councils. I\u2019ve also talked to people in Government. I\u2019ve talked to people who are developers who actually build houses, and I\u2019ve done all of that, just in the last few days, about this Labour-National policy. They say things like, \u201CIt\u2019s hare-brained, it won\u2019t work, it\u2019s a political stunt, it\u2019s hollow, it\u2019s going to ruin neighbourhoods, and it won\u2019t deliver the houses that a whole generation of millennials have been promised.\u201D Here are some other things that they say, and I want to quote one of them: \u201CThe biggest barrier to increasing housing supply in urban growth areas and beyond is the cost in provision of infrastructure, e.g., three waters, transport, and community infrastructure.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003ENow, does anyone who\u2019s been very vocal on the National Party benches want to tell me who said that? Can we listen? Oh, well, that was, ironically, the Minister of Housing in December 2020, and that\u2019s what the developers are saying. That\u2019s what people on councils are saying. That\u2019s what the planning experts I consulted said\u2014actually, simply adding more zoned land to solve a shortage of infrastructure is like buying more cars to end a shortage of fuel. So that\u2019s the first reason that it\u2019s not going to work. You hear them say, \u201CWell, just a second. We\u2019ve had some modelling done by an accounting firm that says that it\u2019s going to work out.\u201D Well, here\u2019s how that modelling actually worked. It said, \u201CYou know what? When the Auckland Unitary Plan came in, in 2016, people built more homes in areas that were zoned for higher intensity, in mixed housing urban and mixed housing suburban; ergo, logically, if we zone more areas as this new medium-density residential standard, people will build even more homes.\u201D Now, if you were doing any kind of rational problem definition and policy formation, the first question you\u2019d ask is, \u201CIs it still true that the reason more homes don\u2019t get built is a lack of zoned land? Because that\u2019s not what all the developers and people in councils and the planning experts say. They say the opposite.\u201D That\u2019s not what the Minister of Housing says. She says that, actually, it\u2019s a shortage of infrastructure. So the analysis is wrong. But the problem is that this medium-density residential standard is not actually like the zones that the modelling used when they tried to establish that intensifying would lead to more home building.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThis medium-density residential standard (MDRS) is going to be in every residential area in the five largest cities. It says that you can have an 8-metre wall, 1 metre from the boundary. I don\u2019t think that people have actually recognised what this MDRS means. It says there can\u2019t be any more building standards other than what is in this legislation. So it\u2019s much taller, much bulkier, much closer to the boundary, with much less outlooks. There\u2019s so many fewer restrictions than the very stones and standards that were used in the study that they\u2019ve used to try and justify this policy, and that is just completely nuts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003ESo there you are, with a policy that won\u2019t lead to the outcomes that a whole generation have been promised. They think that this is somehow going to fix the problem, except the problem is not the zones; the problem is the infrastructure. Then they\u2019re going to irritate beyond belief a whole group of people who actually, generally, are happy with intensification, by the way. When I was a local MP I studied what people think and I asked them. They\u2019re happy with intensification, but they actually have concerns about what it looks like and how it happens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003ESo they\u2019ve introduced this new medium-density residential zone. It\u2019s far more radical that the mixed housing urban zone, and far more radical than the mixed housing suburban zone that the Government\u2019s modelling said would deliver more housing. I don\u2019t know if they\u2019ve done it as something they can sacrifice in the policy process or if they really believe that it\u2019s necessary, but what I do know is that it\u2019s highly divisive. You see, one of the things that I hear constantly from New Zealanders is, \u201CThere\u2019s too much division. The Government rushes things through under cover of COVID. They rush the laws through. They don\u2019t ask us. They don\u2019t consult us and they call us names.\u201D Well, this Government and the National Party are now trying to aggravate a battle between people who want homes and people that they call \u201Cself-interested nimbies\u201D. That\u2019s what it\u2019s got to\u2014rushing through laws and sneaking them through and name-calling. I don\u2019t think that that\u2019s going to help, especially when if you don\u2019t fund the infrastructure, you haven\u2019t solved the problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EHere\u2019s the final problem: they are rushing it through. So the councils weren\u2019t told, even though this severely affects where they\u2019re going to have to build infrastructure and do planning and follow the rules for a very long time. And the next question that happens is that they get three weeks in order to make submissions to the select committee. It would be more honest to tell councils like Auckland and Hamilton, which are operating under COVID conditions, that they don\u2019t want to hear from them, because realistically they won\u2019t be able to make proper submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThe ACT Party has written to Megan Woods and Judith Collins, who hatched this hare-brained scheme, in our view, and we\u2019ve said, \u201CHere\u2019s a couple of things that could be done if you really want to make it work. Number one: fund the infrastructure.\u201D Last year central government got $2 billion in GST collected on residential construction of new homes, and they kept it all. Councils have to do all the infrastructure but central government gets all the money. We say, split it 50:50. A billion dollars to councils that issue resource consents and building consents for new residential homes would fix and fill the infrastructure gap so they could actually afford to make this policy work. The second thing we\u2019d say is that \u201CIf the modelling relied on using Auckland\u2019s mixed housing urban and mixed housing suburban zones to increase housing, why not just use those zones?\u201D Dump this new radical medium-density residential standard that allows an 8-metre wall 1 metre from your boundary and there\u2019s nothing you can do about it, and actually use familiar zones already in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EIf they were to make those two policy changes, this policy would actually probably work\u2014that\u2019s the tragedy. But instead, they\u2019re going to rush the policy through. And that\u2019s the final thing ACT says, \u201CDo a proper select committee process, actually listen to people, actually work together to solve the problem for the next generation without needlessly antagonising current homeowners\u2014and then we\u2019d have a deal.\u201D But, sadly, this hollow political stunt does not deserve any party support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00225fb53b38d3a0447d999f2dadcfbc574b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225fb53b38d3a0447d999f2dadcfbc574b\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. Thank you. I rise in support of this bill and will take a brief call. I certainly welcome the general consensus from right around the House. I have to say, however, just reflecting on the Leader of the ACT Party\u2019s contribution\u2014he talks about credibility but what he has confirmed for members of this House and for people in this country is that his party actually has zilch, nil, none, zilch credibility when it comes to seeking to solve what many and all would actually accept is a significant crisis in this country. I also say that Mr Seymour and the ACT Party have confirmed that actually they\u2019re not in favour of cutting red tape, they are not in favour of enabling first-home buyers to actually have a shot at the market, ACT is not for the element of choice, and that they will do nothing\u2014and that\u2019s a real shame. That is an absolute shame\u2014where we get bipartisanship and other parties who are prepared to, when a solution is placed before them, take it with both hands, go through a select committee process. It is a real shame that there are members in this House that don\u2019t feel that it is serious enough to deliver for our communities in Aotearoa New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThis is a move to reduce bureaucracy. When we reflect on the contribution from the Minister\u2014and I want to acknowledge the Hon Megan Woods for her contribution, because it indicates how serious most members in this House\u2014including all members on this side of the House\u2014are in addressing what is a significant issue. Much has been talked about the role of tier 1 councils, but I also want to pick up the opportunity for tier 2 councils, because my own community of Palmerston North and their city council is a tier 2 council, and if presented with an opportunity to come on board in terms of medium-density opportunities, then that will be available to them if the timing is right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESo, I think it\u2019s timely, it\u2019s good to see collaboration and cooperation from most members of this House, and I look forward to seeing this progress through the Environment Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022be67585b89e94e129387777955506ccc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be67585b89e94e129387777955506ccc\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Well, it is great to speak on this Resource Management (Enabling Housing Supply and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. As the previous speaker Tangi Utikere said, it is great to see a bipartisan approach on this very important development. I look back to what happened in Christchurch after the earthquake, where the land was freed up, where bureaucracy got out of the road\u2014it actually kept house prices down for many years. In fact, house prices in Christchurch have only really started to accelerate faster than the rest of the country now, and they\u2019re a long way behind as a result of that period, or respite, put in place by the National Government at the time. I think that we have to remember these things very clearly, because we should remember the lessons from the past, and I\u2019m sure this will be a great example for the future as well, of working together to get those roadblocks out of the road.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EI had the pleasure of having Nicola Willis in my electorate a little while ago, and we visited not only the council and their resource consent team but also had a meeting with some developers and some builders, and it was very informative. We got a good feeling for what the councils were expecting and where they saw the roadblocks, and then we actually got the real oil, if you like, from the people on the ground who are having to deal with these things day in and day out. I can tell you that, yes, infrastructure is really important\u2014absolutely it\u2019s important, and I\u2019m not belittling that at all\u2014but the issue with resource consents and developments in subdividing and greenfields developments is not only the cost of that to the councils, it\u2019s the costs to the developers of all the uncertainty. They have no idea, often, of how long it\u2019s going to take.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EYou might be a very experienced\u2014not you, of course, Mr Speaker. But for those very experienced developers, who have had many developments, they still have no idea how long it\u2019s going to take to get through the resource consent process. That has a huge impact on their ability to trade, if you like. They have to ensure that they have enough capital to be able to weather that period and come out the other side with a development and with still enough capital to get that development under way. This will actually help this process immensely. In my own town\u2014and while it\u2019s not a tier 1 council, I know that, in Blenheim, there are a huge number of sections, so called, available. When you look at that, that\u2019s a whole lot of houses that have got potential for subdivision, where those owners may or may not want to subdivide their properties. But when we talk to the developers, they say \u201CWell, you\u2019d have rocks in your head if you wanted to subdivide your property, unless you had good assurance that the process would go very smoothly.\u201D Often it doesn\u2019t, and we end up with people coming out the other side, costing them money to subdivide their property for a section on the back of the property.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EThe beauty of the ability to do this is that it frees up more homes and, potentially, smaller places for first-home buyers to get a foot on to the property ladder, but it also unlocks capital for those people that own those properties that are subdividing. This is obviously a huge generalisation, but more than likely the people that are subdividing will be later on in their lives\u2014when they\u2019ve built up their capital, paid their mortgage, and they\u2019re looking to free up a bit of capital\u2014and the buyer is more likely to be a younger person at the beginning of their establishment of their home and their family life. We are therefore making an opportunity for both of those parties to go forward. If we end up with three-storey buildings on some of those, fantastic. I note David Seymour\u2019s comments before, and I thought \u201CThis is the champion of the free market calling for some regulation.\u201D I thought that was a bit ironic, and fortunately we\u2019re not asking him a question, or that wouldn\u2019t be allowed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EBut look, in closing, this is a great move. It\u2019s a great day for young people in New Zealand looking to get on to the property ladder. It\u2019s also a great day for those people who are not so young and wanting to free up some of their capital for the greater enjoyment of their lives, and I think this is a win-win all round.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c3aeb38a09648e48a7121ac48ac04b6\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order. The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022 data-id=\u0022be8a59157b67414f828ce9413fd7e291\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be8a59157b67414f828ce9413fd7e291\u0022\u003EANNA LORCK (Labour\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I rise as the member of Parliament for Tukituki in the Hastings, Hawke\u2019s Bay region. I would like to take this opportunity to say how impressive it was when the chair of Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu Iwi, Ngahiwi Tomoana, stood up and said, in the media, he would love our region\u2014a tier 2 region\u2014to join this housing drive. Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu Iwi, they want to build 400 homes over the next couple of years, and this is the type of legislation that is going to make this opportunity happen. When you have got leaders in the community, where they see political parties working together, that\u2019s why this legislation is going to work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to quote Ngahiwi, and he says this: \u201CThat the iwi\u2019s goal is to build 400 homes across the region in the next two years, and this is attainable because we have a region where councils are working together.\u201D He said, \u201CWe want to empty out the motels and hotels, and put people into housing.\u201D This is why this legislation is going to work, this is why we\u2019re getting cross-party consensus, and I commend this bill, wholeheartedly, to lead housing for New Zealand. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022 data-id=\u00223ce8449e74e74281b00ce7a202e2441f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ce8449e74e74281b00ce7a202e2441f\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Very delighted to stand and take a call on the Resource Management (Enabling Housing Supply and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. I\u2019m really delighted because I\u2019m sure we\u2019re all aware that Tauranga Moana is one of the tier 1 communities and in such need. But also, for those of you who may not be aware, so is the Western Bay of Plenty counted in that tier, so Mayor Garry Webber is delighted by that fact. As we all know, our community is suffering from a lack of land more than anything in terms of development. In fact, our kiwifruit land\u2014our greenfields land that may happen\u2014is more expensive than residential land. So in our outer suburbs it\u2019s very difficult. But I think this is a piece of legislation that is really going to change some of the levers and support our community to have a real diversification of buildings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003ESo what does this bill do? I had a query from a friend recently. She said to me, \u201CWe\u2019ve got two incomes\u2014two good incomes. We live in Tauranga. We are really finding it difficult. We can\u2019t get our deposit together. The prices: we\u2019re looking at a million plus for a lot of our land in the community.\u201D She\u2019s like, \u201CWhat does this bill do?\u201D Well, this bill gives us up to 8,500 thousand properties in our community to support people around diversification of ownership, and I think that that\u2019s an amazing thing. It also gives us the right to build. And as some of you may be aware, my husband and I own a building firm, and one of the things when we talk to a lot of the planners and a lot of people around consenting is the time it takes to get through the process. I talked to a good friend of mine yesterday about the planning, and changes that may happen, and she was able to express her real delight in the fact that they may be able to now look at place-making a little bit more and not have so much work just stacked up behind them pushing these consents through. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u002249599c4f804d4ef9bf53239f13f28db8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002249599c4f804d4ef9bf53239f13f28db8\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It is a pleasure to be talking on the Resource Management (Enabling Housing Supply and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. Well, it\u2019s quite a day, isn\u2019t it? Very significant, particularly in relation to dealing with one of the most significant issues facing New Zealand. The issue around housing, it permeates so many people\u2019s lives, and the inability now of our younger generation to even have the desire to actually want to buy a house, given the increasing cost of it and how they are becoming increasingly out of reach for most young New Zealanders. It is not only a financial issue; it is actually becoming a social issue. I think this bill is one of the steps\u2014it is not going to do everything, by any means, but I think it is perhaps giving a bit of hope to our younger people, and particularly people that are renting at the moment, with young children, also, who we don\u2019t want to see moving from school to school, as David Seymour alluded to before, because I think that social transitional cost is just immense\u2014on communities and on people. And how that is reflected and felt by many families, at a personal level, is one of the things that just makes this\u2014we have to try and deal with this housing issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EOne of the things with building houses at the moment is the arcane planning rules, and also it often depends on the people that you have to deal with in council. And probably unlike Mr Seymour, actually I have been involved in doing residential developments, and they are difficult. They are difficult because, honestly, sometimes it will depend on how people interpret the rules, there is no consistency in many cases across councils\u2014I\u2019ve worked across councils\u2014and that lack of certainty is one of the key drivers of making it more difficult for people to build houses in New Zealand. And that, of course, is leading to\u2014not always, but significantly contributing to the lack of new houses that people want to take the risks and do the development, particularly at a time when building costs are going up rapidly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo I think this bill is good in the sense that, first of all, it recognises that property owners have the right to build. That\u2019s a pretty good fundamental principle. I know my colleague Nicola Willis talked about this in her address, but the right to build is an important imperative in New Zealand. It also has got to come with rules and responsibilities. But I think that should be the opening premise. Often, when you sit down with council staff in consenting operations, there is almost a view on why you shouldn\u2019t build this particular building that you might be proposing. What we\u2019ve got to do is turn that premise around and say, \u201CWhy should it not happen?\u201D and that the right to build is the right approach. And, of course, that starts to deal with the supply issues that we\u2019ve talked about before. It also allows councils to deal more quickly with greenfields.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo, I think, if we\u2019re looking to expand the number of houses in New Zealand, there are two key strategies. One is intensification, which this will certainly provide for, and one is the issue of greenfield sites. Under this, one of the key parts of it is allowing councils to permit greenfield developments to take place, and to accelerate that under the new intensification streamlined planning rules, which, basically, will bring forward that process for zoning new land, greenfields land, into areas that can be built. And, obviously, there will be grey areas, also, that have already been built on that might be redeveloped. I think those are the key strategies, and so that is a fantastic part of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe other one is just this adopting the medium-density residential standards. And, obviously, as Nicola Willis talked about, there are quite specific rules around that. There are actually things like natural hazards, there are open spaces, there are heritage zones, and I think all those ones are important facets that a council can have regard for if it is going to permit much more intense area to occur in certain areas, so if there are overwhelming reasons why intensification shouldn\u2019t take place, there are areas in the Act\u2014well, if it does get passed\u2014that will allow councils to show some reasonable sort of approach to that rather than just allowing every development to take place in a certain area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBut also there are the rules around the actual building standards. You still need to require to get a building consent, even if you no longer need the resource consent under the arrangement\u2014but there is still a requirement for building consent. So that means that the building needs to be built\u2014or the proper standards or the design aspects to it, all those sort of things to make sure we don\u2019t end up just building a whole lot of poor-quality buildings that lead to issues over the long term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI think one of the big issues is around the infrastructure, and Mr Seymour raised this, and I think that is correct. When we proposed this bill, we talked about giving councils $50,000 per additional dwellings\u2014so if you did an apartment dwelling of 20 properties, that would mean a million bucks that would go to the council as a contribution towards meeting the infrastructure cost of that. It was directly tailored to incentivising councils to issue consents, but also to support them financially in terms of meeting those infrastructure costs. I think that is probably a very good mechanism because it is directly related to the building activity, as opposed to something around the ACT payback.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBut I was fascinated by the member for Epsom and also the leader of ACT, I didn\u2019t quite know in which capacity he was talking this afternoon. I think, in reflection, he was talking as the MP for Epsom, because his overriding fears about what this would mean for the leafy suburbs of Epsom, I think, was the key driver towards his opposition to this piece of legislation. Although, I suspect he is slightly miffed that he wasn\u2019t part of the group. But the issue he raises about needing more control around building, and all that sort of thing, I did find slightly troubling, given where ACT sit and previously had made it very clear that they are a party of free enterprise and minimal regulation. So maybe when we get to the second reading, Mr Seymour, we\u2019ll get more clarity on your position, but it was slightly confusing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EHey, but, I think, this is a very important thing. I think we need to recognise there are two separate issues. There is an issue of \u201Cneed\u201D and there is an issue of \u201Cwant\u201D. The issue of need is that we need houses for our younger people to be able to afford, to be able to move into, and to be able to acquire. We also have this issue of want. Many people don\u2019t want things to happen near them. I think the most important thing is this issue of meeting the need of people who are renting at the moment, whether they are young or people with young families, who want to get into a house, who have the desire to get into a house, but can\u2019t see that opportunity. So I think that is really, really important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThere are other aspects, as I said earlier. I think we need to look at how the building industry is working and some of the supply issues with that, also the availability of staff, and, actually, the building regulations themselves probably need an overhaul. But, as I said at the outset, I think this is a very good start in terms of dealing with the most significant issue, which is one of supply\u2014how can we provide more or make it easy for people to actually build houses? This is what this piece of legislation is about, and I think it should be supported and it is well worth taking to the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022 data-id=\u00227ab9b6fbb50746daba245692819d5d4d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ab9b6fbb50746daba245692819d5d4d\u0022\u003EDr EMILY HENDERSON (Labour\u2014Whang\u0101rei):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, te M\u0101ngai o te Whare. Housing is the most crucial and central aspect to rebuilding our communities. As the member for Whang\u0101rei, I am so delighted to be part of a Government that is making this a priority and that is providing the funds and the legislation to do it with. I really want to congratulate Minister Woods for this initiative, which is part of a suite of measures that are going to make a huge difference to places like Whang\u0101rei, which has\u2014I am grateful\u2014already been recognised as an area where housing is a priority because of our problems with supply. The Housing Acceleration Fund to build infrastructure of $3.8 billion\u2014and now we have this: to increase the densification.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EAs someone who weekly meets with the officials and the members of council in my area to talk about the difficulties and the opportunities for housing in Whang\u0101rei, which we desperately need\u2014the biggest consensus that we have is that the answer is urban densification. This initiative is going to make it easier to put our wh\u0101nau into warm, safe, dry houses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EAs someone who has lived in a densely populated area during my time as a post-graduate student in Cambridge\u2014including as a mum of four children later, when I went back, in a villa\u2014I can tell you the richness of living in a tiny little two-up, two-down apartment, properly built, on the edge of a greenfield and parks. It is an extraordinary way to build a community. It encourages participation, it encourages walking the streets, it encourages community activity. I commend this bill to the House with great enthusiasm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226c07a05a049e4098b27e0e6dfc0391d4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Resource Management (Enabling Housing Supply and Other Matters) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 110\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; New Zealand National 33; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000274\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd7671cef97a4f5d8d507cc273d649cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd7671cef97a4f5d8d507cc273d649cb\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the Resource Management (Enabling Housing Supply and Other Matters) Amendment Bill be considered by the Environment Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Environment Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d5cdb654a88b4e51aabeb80e775997b8\u0022\u003EInstruction to the Environment Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe07793badc04a8bb5c479b531fce07b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe07793badc04a8bb5c479b531fce07b\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Housing)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister for the Environment: I move, That the Resource Management (Enabling Housing Supply and Other Matters) Amendment Bill be reported to the House by 2 December 2021 and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting (except during oral questions), during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House and outside the Wellington area, despite Standing Orders 193, 195, and 196.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00227081654e4d06410ab4d8209b4d4a133b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227081654e4d06410ab4d8209b4d4a133b\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc8f0cd73bd04616abd3c22624ffd816\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc8f0cd73bd04616abd3c22624ffd816\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of ACT in opposition to this motion. This motion means that instead of the usual six months that a select committee would have to consider the details of a bill and actually listen to members of the public and hear what they think about the laws being made in their land\u2014instead of all that happening over six months, it\u2019s going to be compacted down to five weeks. Of course, the committee actually has to take some time to think about what people have said. Let\u2019s say that\u2019s two weeks. That means that there is three weeks available for people to prepare submissions on what is actually quite a complex and impactful matter. It affects a lot of people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s so many reasons\u2014and I hope I can get through all of them in 10 minutes\u2014why on this particular piece of legislation it\u2019s even more important that people have the opportunity to have their say and properly be consulted. I\u2019ll just start with one that\u2019s pertinent right now. It\u2019s something that I\u2019m hearing extensively from people. It\u2019s about the political environment. It\u2019s people who are saying \u201COur trust in Government and Parliament is being damaged by rushed processes. We feel like they\u2019re rushing things through in the middle of a crisis.\u201D Some of those things are actually quite untrue and outlandish. For example, people have told me that the abortion legislation was rushed through under COVID. That\u2019s not true: the law was passed before there were any lockdowns. But it is true that people have been passing laws in this Parliament under urgency an awful lot under the COVID period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThe COVID-19 Public Health Response Amendment Bill (No 2)\u2014that is being rushed through, and it involves allowing the Government to, effectively, confiscate the laboratory capacity of saliva testers. So that\u2019s something that is damaging people\u2019s confidence. It also allows all sorts of orders that some people find divisive. The COVID19 management measures legislation\u2014that allows the Government to, effectively, retrospectively change people\u2019s commercial lease contracts. All of these things in the current political environment are leading to a distrust of this institution and a distrust of politics in New Zealand, and that is extremely damaging to the future and health of our democracy. So I would argue that in the current political environment, in people\u2019s current attitude and trust towards Government, this is a very bad time to be rushing through more legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThe unusual bipartisan nature of the deal, as one member described it earlier\u2014that\u2019s another reason, because usually people can say \u201COK, roughly half the Parliament, at least, has got out back and is sticking up for us.\u201D But because you\u2019ve had two parties that together represent\u2014well, what\u2019s 65 plus 33? About, you know, 98 out of 120 seats. So, roughly, 83 percent of Parliament has coalesced around this being rushed. That further damages\u2014you know, people say \u201CWell, you know, bad enough we can\u2019t trust the Labour Party not to rush stuff through; now the National Party is doing it too.\u201D That really damages people\u2019s trust.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThe next thing is that often legislation is rushed through Parliament, but there has at least been some consultation of people affected in the drafting of the bill. The problem with this particular legislation is that, due to the unconventional political deal that had to be done between National and Labour, they say, to get this over the line, it meant that while they promised that they were collaborating with each other\u2014and isn\u2019t it great working together\u2014the truth is they didn\u2019t work with anyone else. So there are people who are in councils in New Zealand who actually have a memorandum of understanding to develop policy together with Government, and they weren\u2019t consulted. They\u2019re very angry, frankly, because they spend their whole lives trying to work out how to allow development to happen and make it happen in a way that\u2019s efficient for the use of infrastructure and so on, and they weren\u2019t asked about this. They were insulted. They weren\u2019t even given a pre-announcement briefing when they got wind of it and asked for one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003ESo the fact that there\u2019s a whole lot of people that maybe, if they\u2019d\u2014I\u2019m talking about developers. I\u2019m talking about planning experts. Maybe if people had actually had some input, then it might be OK, but what you\u2019ve had is the Wellington-based Ministry of Housing and Urban Development and an accounting firm have been asked to put together the policy, and, as a result of not asking those people, (a) those people have lost their right to be asked, and (b) all of those people have actually not been able to contribute to making the policy better. So, you know, given that we\u2019re starting from zero in terms of consultation, that\u2019s another reason why it would be good to have a proper select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EAnother reason why we should actually allow the full time to consult is COVID-19. Right now, Auckland Council and Hamilton\u2019s council are affected by COVID-19 in two ways. First of all, they\u2019re dealing with its impacts. So Auckland Council had to shave $750 million off its budget. They\u2019re supposed to be going live on 1 December\u2014which ACT would like to be freedom day from COVID, but that\u2019s a separate subject. They\u2019ve been trying to get a budget together. They\u2019re trying to deal with the impacts and the restrictions of COVID as a task, but also the COVID restrictions make it more difficult for them to perform any particular task because they can\u2019t collaborate and get together. And now they\u2019re having this new thing that they haven\u2019t previously been asked about put on top of them, and they\u2019re supposed to respond in the record time of three weeks. There will be no genuine consultation of councils, and that is a huge mistake. I think it\u2019s hugely unfortunate that councils are not going to have that opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThe next reason why is that the facts of this particular issue are devilishly complex. So over the last few days, I have been talking to a lot of the people who probably should be making submissions, if there\u2019s time, and who should have been asked about the policy before they had an opportunity. Now, these people will say, for example, one of the issues is understanding infrastructure capacity at a micro, street-by-street level. Councils don\u2019t have that sort of data. They usually don\u2019t know they\u2019re overcapacity until something breaks. These are the kind of things that clearly have escaped the people behind this legislation, and I think it\u2019s a real shame that they haven\u2019t been able to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EAnother reason why there should be a full amount of normal consultation on this is the division that this legislation has the ability to create if people don\u2019t have their voices heard. Now, I think at the moment, at this point in New Zealand history, there\u2019s too much division. People are feeling really quite separated by the actions of the Government on a whole lot of fronts, not just vaccine mandates in the last few days and the way that that\u2019s been gone about by the Prime Minister, but I saw in the New Zealand Herald a headline saying \u201CThis is about nimbies being put to the sword.\u201D Well, first of all, I don\u2019t want to see anyone attacked with any kind of sword. I only want the metaphor. I don\u2019t like violence. I don\u2019t like division. I don\u2019t like name-calling. You know, I actually want to see people treated respectfully, united behind good ideas and working together to solve problems, rather than this idea that it\u2019s somehow almost good, it\u2019s tough stuff, to really get in there and belittle fellow citizens. I don\u2019t think that that\u2019s a good way to go forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI have to say that I\u2019ve been personally quite dismayed at the response of some members in the House\u2014just in this debate, and I think that\u2019s why it needs longer to dial the temperature down. I\u2019ll give you an example of that, and there will be a few other members that will understand what I\u2019m saying, and they might think about it, because it applies to them too. Tangi Utikere, the member for Palmerston North\u2014now, not so long ago, I was at a Federated Farmers event, and he\u2019s a new Labour MP. It\u2019s fair to say that being a new Labour MP from a city at a Fed Farmers event is not one of the more popular areas to go. It\u2019s a bit like me going to\u2014well, actually, to be honest, I get a good reception just about everywhere now. But it\u2019s not a particularly great place for him to be, and yet, you know, everybody there treated Tangi Utikere with enormous amounts of grace. You know, they clearly had policy differences, but they were able to treat him graciously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003ENow, I listened to his snarky, sarcastic speech that he gave about me in the debate, and I thought \u201CWow. That says a bit about his character.\u201D I know there\u2019s a few other people not so far away from me now that probably just want to think a little bit about their maturity level and how they navigate policy and personal disagreements if they really think that they\u2019re ready for the big time, because I\u2019m seeing that actually maybe they\u2019re not. But the facts are that not only would a longer and proper consultation process be better for relations between people; most importantly, it would be good for policy, and that\u2019s why we should have a proper select committee process on this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4a56fb3241d49bdaba294ed446e25bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4a56fb3241d49bdaba294ed446e25bb\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I thank the member who has resumed his seat\u2014the newly gracious member who has resumed his seat\u2014and he calls in aid for his case the COVID pandemic and the outbreaks. I call in aid that as well, because one thing that we have seen with the COVID pandemic is just the extraordinary inequity in our communities and our society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EOne of the indicators of that inequity is housing, and we\u2019re seeing that playing out right now in the current outbreak: the fact that those people who are suffering the greatest risk of infection right now are those who are in overcrowded housing and housing estates where a lot of people are jammed together. That is the reason why there is real urgency to getting on with this legislation and having it examined in a meaningful, even if brief, way, so that this House can get on and do the job of creating the basis on which we can get houses built. So it is important that the motion moved by my colleague, the Hon Megan Woods, is approved by this House so that we can get on with the examination. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThis is a piece of policy work that has been well consulted with, with others in this House and with the community generally in the housing sector, because everybody is saying that we need the rules to be rewritten. We need the rules to change to help us break through and get the modern, 21st century housing built at a pace that we know we can house New Zealanders. That\u2019s what the bill is about, and we can take six months and we can pull apart sentences and clauses and the grammar and what have you, but, actually, there are tens of thousands of New Zealanders who are going without adequate housing right now, who are desperate to get into good housing. We have developers who are desperate to get the opportunity, with good planning laws driven by good guidelines, to actually get building under way so that we can address that very serious crisis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThis Government came in, four years ago, pledging to do whatever it took and be serious about our housing crisis. This legislation is part of that, but the urgency with which we approached housing four years ago remains today. There\u2019s been a lot of construction and a lot of housing, but there needs to be a lot more, and it\u2019s a category of housing that we have struggled through current planning laws and through current resource management provisions to actually get enough of. We\u2019ve now got an opportunity to do something about it. Four years into the recognition of this crisis, we actually have a chance to tweak some rules and get on and get those houses built that are desperately needed right now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo the member who has resumed his seat\u2014David Seymour\u2014quite rightly draws attention to the procedural requirements we expect to be observed when legislation is passing through the House, and it is right that the culture of this House and, in fact, the rules written for its conduct are, typically, to allow deliberate, measured consideration of legislation, because, in the end, it invariably cuts across rights and interests right throughout the community. Indeed, when we provide for these new provisions, there will be those who will say, \u201CWell, what about my right to that stream of sunlight that cuts across my property? What about my right to live with less dense housing in my neighbourhood and in my street?\u201D Well, actually, time has moved on, and the need for housing construction is greater than it has ever been. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe need to alleviate the poverty of housing is greater than it has ever been. The need to give people a chance\u2014more New Zealanders a chance\u2014to get a place where they can live in comfort and in a healthy way has never been greater. So we need this law. We need it in place because we need local authorities, local government, to do their work to prepare their plan changes in time for August next year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo there is an urgency to it, and we should not call on urgency frivolously or wantonly because it is convenient to do so. But in the face of an obvious need and an urgent need, then it is appropriate for this House to suspend its usual rules. Not to avoid consultation altogether, and not to avoid the possibility of citizens having their right to have a say, but to accept that sometimes there are laws that have to move more rapidly than others and to enable us as a country and as a Parliament to seriously address the very difficult problems and challenges that we have. So, on that basis, I support the motion of my colleague, the Hon Megan Woods, and invite this House to continue to support a process that allows us to get moving on this legislation sooner rather than later. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002249764effd26445dc9dc7a557f2d15694\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the bill be reported to the House by 2 December 2021 and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting (except during oral questions), during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House and outside the Wellington area, despite Standing Orders 193, 195, and 196.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 98\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; New Zealand National 33.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 20\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002271383669f4604dc394b92cc0163a2f29\u0022\u003EHouse in Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002282dcdab8eaeb4707af28c53b19edd0a7\u0022\u003EHouse in Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022686c7741f9e34b85b1624be876ebed42\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022686c7741f9e34b85b1624be876ebed42\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Mental Health (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Amendment Bill, the Films, Videos, and Publications Classification (Urgent Interim Classification of Publications and Prevention of Online Harm) Amendment Bill, Maritime Transport (MARPOL Annex VI) Amendment Bill, and the Health (Fluoridation of Drinking Water) Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a45f6a5c8cf8462f895e749486d5ff21\u0022\u003EMental Health (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221bf9472cd19444feaee7ac13e5ebb8a3\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222da14a383d0d478c95893abea436d388\u0022\u003EPart 1  Main amendments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022f119a9fb3c4a41508ce5c7080c2b7426\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f119a9fb3c4a41508ce5c7080c2b7426\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: We come first to the Mental Health (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Amendment Bill Part 1. This is the debate on clauses 4 to 12 and the Schedule, main amendments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f593d7c2356e43b685698673b7c3e199\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f593d7c2356e43b685698673b7c3e199\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chairman, I won\u2019t take too long just by way of introductory remarks, but this bill will be well-known to members of the House. It\u2019s really an interim measure, pending a full review of the current legislation, but this addresses some immediate needs that have been identified by the He Ara Oranga report that looked into our total mental health administration. It called on repeal of the indefinite treatment orders\u2014or, effectively, indefinite treatment orders\u2014under the current legislation. It also effectively repeals the temporary provisions that allowed family members to attend explanations and meetings with patients by way of audiovisual link. It also allows assessments to be conducted, where necessary, by audiovisual link, and it allows appropriate restraint powers to be exercised by those escorting special patients to needed appointments, where restraint in transport is needed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo this makes those immediate changes. It brings the legislation, such as it is, to a more human rights compliant sort of state, and that is a good thing. But otherwise, I look forward to the questions and the discussion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u00221d90d4db7e6d4c198a21f1aec8baa311\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d90d4db7e6d4c198a21f1aec8baa311\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY (National\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair, and can I also acknowledge the health Minister and thank him for his time, being here today. I think, as the health Minister clearly outlined, it\u2019s a fairly technical bill which makes a few important changes, and the National Party does support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EThere was some concern, though, in the select committee\u2014and I suppose we did hear from submitters as well\u2014we do want to move with technology. This bill clearly outlines the improved use of audiovisual link for those people who could be assessed and/or treated, and\u2014as the Minister said\u2014to include family and friends in the involvement of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EWith any change, and I suppose in the area of mental health, where we\u2019re dealing with some very vulnerable people\u2014I would like to hear from the Minister, is he assured that there are safeguards in place, that the use of audiovisual will be used for the benefit of the person involved? And what mechanisms are in place to ensure the reporting of audiovisual, the decision points where audiovisual was decided upon for that individual, and how that new practice will be reported back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u00228cc3bde03b4c448ea7b975192bc8c246\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228cc3bde03b4c448ea7b975192bc8c246\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E It is important that when these provisions that change the typical approach and mean that people aren\u2019t physically present, that there are appropriate safeguards. There is provision for when a decision is made to use audiovisual technology, that that is recorded, and that the reasons for doing so are also recorded. I\u2019m confident that there are safeguards in the bill in that respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022085fde33a42e4e58a074389733b604b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022085fde33a42e4e58a074389733b604b1\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY (National\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E Equally, there were changes to the transporting of special patients, the restraint or potential restraint in a vehicle. I think it would be helpful to understand what were the drivers of some of those changes around enhanced restraints of special patients? And also, again, to that idea of safeguards in reporting: how are we going to safeguard that those restraints are appropriate, and how will we ascertain the numbers or times restraints are used and whether that\u2019s appropriate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u002231ffc30fa052495cb442ee6418d44f35\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231ffc30fa052495cb442ee6418d44f35\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E The reason why this has been provided for is there hasn\u2019t previously been any provision or statutory power for those responsible for the care of special patients, in particular, and especially when they\u2019re being transported, to exercise restraint powers. That has been a subject for comment by those responsible for inspecting mental health services, particularly forensic mental health services. The reality is that there are some special patients who are a danger to themselves and potentially to others, particularly if they are in the confined space of a motor vehicle. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo this has been introduced in order for there to be clear statutory provision to allow restraints to be applied so that people can be transported safely. This is for the purposes of bringing a patient before a court for their hearing or for a trial, or for bringing a person before the Parole Board for a hearing. In order for that to happen, there has to be a transport management plan\u2014that\u2019s provided for in new section 53A(2) set out in clause 9. That has to be approved by the Director of Mental Health. That transport management plan can authorise the restraint of the patient in the least restrictive way and the use of any other force that is reasonably necessary in the circumstances, and there are some other provisions there. In the end, in terms of preparing those transport plans, the Director-General of Health must issue guidelines for the purposes of developing those plans and for the execution of these powers. Once this legislation is passed, those guidelines must be in place within 12 months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo a number of kind of braces and bootstraps are sort of being used to make sure every possible safeguard that can be in place for special patients to be transported is there and reflected in not only the legislation but the way it is implemented.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba093d9ea51744ca9d72e4c52df880dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba093d9ea51744ca9d72e4c52df880dd\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY (National\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Part 1 also includes the elimination of the indefinite treatment orders. It has been said, for this part and other clauses, it\u2019s the beginning of the Government\u2019s commitment to repeal and replace the Mental Health Act. I was wondering if the Minister would be able to update the committee where that mental health inquiry recommendation is, of repealing and replacing the Mental Health Act, and when he thinks maybe that new bill will be introduced to the House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u00228e16cf7d3e7c4765ba7cdab71f70ae8c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e16cf7d3e7c4765ba7cdab71f70ae8c\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for the question. I can report that good progress is being made in the preparation of that legislation and I am hopeful that it will be introduced to the House very shortly. But that has been a big exercise, as the member will be aware, but hopefully a combination of this interim sort of change and the kind of permanent repeal of the current legislation, and its permanent replacement by more modern legislation, will give greater confidence not only to those who\u2019ve been cared for in our mental health system but for those doing the caring as well. I assure the member that future is not far away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1b6074ae92c4a3f9cc3fddcc288afd4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1b6074ae92c4a3f9cc3fddcc288afd4\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chairman. I wonder if we could get a little bit more definite timing than \u201Cvery shortly\u201D. It was certainly a very significant part of the submissions to the Mental Health (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Amendment Bill, that while submitters were pleased with the small changes in here, they were much more exercised by the overall repeal and replacement of the Act. I think a more definite timing than \u201Cvery shortly\u201D would be useful. If the Minister could give us a little bit more of an indication of where the progress is at and the time line for that final repeal and replacement. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022387f044582094f4e90216ef0b882c7cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022387f044582094f4e90216ef0b882c7cb\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E The member will be aware that the legislation\u2014in addition to being commented on in the way described by that member, as in urgent need of replacement\u2014is a comprehensive and complicated exercise. But we knew that there were shortcomings right now that really needed to be addressed as a matter of urgency. That is this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIn terms of the long-term replacement, there is a consultation process under way specifically on that legislation. I expect that will be concluded in the early part of next year. That will form the basis of the drafting of the legislation. So, all going well, we\u2019ll be in a position to have that new legislation at some point next year and, all going well, passed in 2023.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u0022395fa153d3fe4e1a889d464483bef703\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022395fa153d3fe4e1a889d464483bef703\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. And thank you, Minister. The use of audiovisual link, as my colleague Matt Doocey has spoken about, was also quite a significant part of the submissions, in that family and friends particularly were very concerned that the justification must not be just that it is the fall-back, default, easiest position for officials. We heard, in the submissions, that they felt there needed to be very stringent reporting arrangements. I wonder if the Minister could just give us a little bit more information about those reporting requirements\u2014whether it is just going to be the guidance through regulations, or more stringent requirements than that. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022e956cd1caede44fc83f0dbc7c007cc0f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e956cd1caede44fc83f0dbc7c007cc0f\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY (National\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E And, just while the Minister is taking some advice on that, I think it\u2019s a very important question from my colleague Penny Simmonds, to ensure that we do have the regime in place to identify when audiovisual link (AVL) is being used\u2014also the recording of that, and also the reporting of that. I think, if the Minister could respond to that but also maybe take a step further, in how we are going to have some trust in the Ministry of Health reporting. We know the Minister was severely let down recently by some of the reporting about the mental health annual report. So it\u2019d be nice to think that some of the changes in this bill that we are debating at the moment will appear in some reports that will be public facing and the public can have some confidence in what my colleague Penny Simmonds alluded to\u2014that what we don\u2019t want to see is mental health patients just sidelined, basically, and that they will just be sidelined by the use of AVL. I think it\u2019s important, especially in a mental health context, that they are meeting their mental health professionals face to face, they are included in their care planning and assessment, and that they know that we are there for them and caring for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022061ca7ac5b644ce8a4d8beeb72ade12f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022061ca7ac5b644ce8a4d8beeb72ade12f\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I thank both those members, Penny Simmonds and Matt Doocey, for their questions. I think the simple answer is that part of the director-general\u2019s guidelines have to encompass the basis on which a decision to use audiovisual link (AVL) is made. And so that is why practitioners who are assessing a patient would need to apply the guidelines issued by the Director-General of Health, including when the physical presence of a patient isn\u2019t practicable and the use of AVL technology is appropriate. So the director-general will develop the guidelines for that. But the second part of it is, too, there will be an obligation to report to the relevant director of area mental health services on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI think, as I understand it, the committee was keen to develop a comprehensive reporting requirement. Members of this House should expect that to be part of the legislation that is the permanent replacement to the current Mental Health Act. I agree with both of those members: there does need, for the purposes of assurance to both patients and their families, for there to be some clear basis on which involvement of a patient in a way that is other than face to face is recorded and that we also build up a reporting track\u2014a record\u2014of the way in which a power like that is used. So members can be reassured that, notwithstanding the provisions in this particular bill, it goes some way to address that question. The permanent replacement will properly address and provide a proper framework for just that particular question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u002241a92b0746a7455998a8131697acde89\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002241a92b0746a7455998a8131697acde89\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chairman, and thank you Minister for that assurance. I wonder if the Minister could further outline to us what monitoring of that reporting might take place so that we can be sure that parts of the country are not applying the guidelines inconsistently with other parts of the country. Just the reporting of it is good, but if the reporting isn\u2019t monitored and consistency achieved, then only half the job is done. Thank you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d03a42656c894007ac6abc8278542be2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d03a42656c894007ac6abc8278542be2\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I think the member raises a very good point. I think, a couple of things. First of all, the Director-General of Health is responsible for developing the guidelines, so they will be a set of national guidelines. The Director of Mental Health, obviously, will have an involvement in that and the Director of Mental Health is responsible for ensuring provisions in the current legislation are applied and applied consistently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI think what will give further reassurance to members is the legislation introduced, yet to have its first reading\u2014the Pae Ora (Healthy Futures) Bill\u2014is about a truly nationwide health system, so that any inconsistency that might have been developed between the proprietors of mental health units at the moment, which are any one of the 20 DHBs, there will be a mechanism to ensure a greater consistency of application of national guidelines in the future in a way that we struggle to achieve at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002282df721060cc4e9cbdd2bf9b79b11970\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments relating to COVID-19\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3f32da0b84a48178b4f41ca03791626\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3f32da0b84a48178b4f41ca03791626\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 2. This is the debate on clauses 13 to 34\u2014amendments relating to COVID-19. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003ESchedules agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f808385d3cb44aa38db1a5bb110d7128\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022b58ca6cac88e4165ae1db2313fdef259\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b58ca6cac88e4165ae1db2313fdef259\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to the final debate, clauses 1 to 3. This is the debate on clauses 1 to 3: Title, Commencement, and Principal Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226ec4aca245f844099415812f62df40ab\u0022\u003EClause 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8011175395d4ab9b26ee74b097bb1bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8011175395d4ab9b26ee74b097bb1bd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment to clause 2 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 72 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EClause 2, as amended, agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e2ec5633feba4ad29dceb644246a6b17\u0022\u003EFilms, Videos, and Publications Classification (Urgent Interim Classification of Publications and Prevention of Online Harm) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022086222ebd9894f57b52ce95d3257a845\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dc04aa6b0bab4f0fa798860b32fc63f6\u0022\u003EPart 1  Definitions, application of Harmful Digital Communications Act 2015, and interim classification assessments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0fc0f8f9864481084fe41c7514ce42c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0fc0f8f9864481084fe41c7514ce42c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to the Films, Videos, and Publications Classification (Urgent Interim Classification of Publications and Prevention of Online Harm) Amendment Bill, Part 1. This is the debate on clauses 4 to 7, \u201CDefinitions, application of Harmful Digital Communications Act 2015, and interim classification assessments\u201D. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022deee3e70049b43059fb411fcfdacd194\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022deee3e70049b43059fb411fcfdacd194\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E This bill will update the classification Act to allow for urgent steps to be taken to prevent and mitigate harms caused by objectionable publications. The amendments will ensure that Government internet service providers and online content hosts can swiftly and consistently take action against objectionable material and prevent the potential harm that this material can cause to New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EPart 1 of the bill first amends definitions in section 2 of the classification Act. This provides certainty that the definition of publication expressly includes \u201Ca copy of images or sounds that have been livestreamed\u201D in the definition. It amends the Act to expressly override the \u201Csafe harbour\u201D provisions in the Harmful Digital Communications Act 2015 when the classification Act applies. The result of this change would ensure that online content hosts could be prosecuted for possessing or distributing objectionable or restricted content, such as violent extremist material.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EThe bill will also provide for a new urgent interim classification assessment processed for the Classification Office. This will cover all publications by the principal Act, in contrast to the rest of the bill, which only applies to online publications. The change provides an option for the chief censor to indicate a likely classification status and alert the public and enforcement agencies accordingly, as a result allowing public enforcement agencies and online content hosts to act sooner in dealing with objectionable content.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d56625fe3bba4a2d96036aecb62f5663\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d56625fe3bba4a2d96036aecb62f5663\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki - King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. It\u2019s a pleasure to be speaking in the committee stage\u2014and say it once again\u2014of the Films, Videos, and Publications Classification (Urgent Interim Classification of Publications and Prevention of Online Harm) Amendment Bill. And again, congratulations to the Minister for, firstly, updating this bill. The one we debated before this was around mental health, and that was another bill that is moving with the technology of the times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EFrom coming into Parliament, I don\u2019t think most of the public often realise just how things move and our legislation becomes quite outdated. Our existing system was designed in the early 1990s without the internet and focused on traditional newspapers and printing material and free to air for TV, so it was not fit for purpose. There\u2019s one question, really, and it\u2019s not really a question because we\u2019ve talked this bill through and we\u2019ve worked really well together. But the current system has been confusing for content providers and consumers, because consumers have no single complaints processes currently, and some content providers are regulated by multiple regimes. So just, really, for the Minister, I\u2019m just hoping that you would just explain perhaps more to the committee and more to the public about how the new regime is going to be much more helpful for those who are current providers. Because I know in the select committee, when it came in, there was quite a bit of uncertainty around the current regime. So it\u2019s been good to settle it down with the changes. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ESo the next the next piece I was just going to ask was: the communities all have a role to play in reducing harm. This was widely consulted, and I just wanted to say how pleased I am that the Minister has taken this on board, because the main reason for this was the March 15th episode that we had in 2019, which was abhorrent. Maybe the Minister could just explain to the committee around \u201Cobjectionable\u201D actually being a term that\u2019s already currently in the law. That was a question that most people had: what does objectionable mean? Because it means something different to some of us than it does to others, when we\u2019re talking in general language, but objectionable is already in the law. And I just think it\u2019s important, as we go through this process before we get to the final reading of this bill, just to make sure that the public is fully comprehensive of what we\u2019re doing here. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022e058aea1b14e4113b6e24095de4021d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e058aea1b14e4113b6e24095de4021d3\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for that, because that\u2019s exactly true. The term \u201Cobjectionable\u201D in this case is already defined within the classifications Act, so this particular bill isn\u2019t seeking to redefine that term \u201Cobjectionable\u201D. As the previous member that\u2019s just sat down has just pointed out, that is already well defined within law. Going back to your previous question, what this bill seeks to do is give clarity through the issuing of take-down notices to those providers. So they will understand when the material is objectionable, because it\u2019s already been defined. They will have a take-down notice that will give them that sense of clarity as opposed to the voluntary regime that currently operates. So this makes it clearer for them and I think that that\u2019s a good thing that this bill is doing for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003ESince this has gone through select committee\u2014and I do say thank you once again to the Governance and Administration Committee, who worked really diligently on this bill\u2014we have heard come back from providers that that\u2019s exactly what they are looking forward to, that sense of clarity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022 data-id=\u00228b9fb587290d4733bdc1b885dca41515\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b9fb587290d4733bdc1b885dca41515\u0022\u003ENICOLA GRIGG (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Minister. I just had another question around Part 1 of this bill, around the online content host description. I just wanted you to be able to elaborate a little around the role that online content hosts will be playing in the sense that\u2014just trying to understand what difference this law will make when it comes into effect, when there are internet service providers (ISPs) and platforms already removing material voluntarily.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u00221e75eaf7985242c48cf0cd6a07d5c117\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e75eaf7985242c48cf0cd6a07d5c117\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Exactly what I\u2019ve just said in that this gives them clarity. So we\u2019ve currently got a voluntary regime and a voluntary regime is up to the provider and the ISP. With the take-down notices, there is no question around whether this is objectionable or not. They\u2019re not having to second guess. This gives them that sense of clarity, and that\u2019s where this bill is seeking to improve what currently exists.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1524c7e20444016b6ec866301195c28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1524c7e20444016b6ec866301195c28\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker, and thank you to the Minister for clarifying that for the public at home\u2014around content being objectionable and the ability for this legislation to issue take-down notices, as well; I think that\u2019s really, really important. I acknowledge the work that the Governance and Administration Committee did and, of course, the work that the Minister did in terms of trying to pull this thing together. Our objection was around the internet filter and that has now been taken out, but I\u2019ve been reflecting on this bill because it is about trying to futureproof technology. And so we started off in the 1990s and the 1980s, maybe even before, in the times of VHS and CD-ROMs and all that kind of stuff, and that\u2019s when this legislation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca60ab01125046f99a742e9dbaa7441d\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Good times. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3ce09bbf1664d14878a94b7eff6ccbe\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014good times, yeah\u2014first came out and now we\u2019re looking at social media, and so on, and so forth. But with that filter, I know it was a tool that was used to actually deal with some really, really serious issues and I\u2019m thinking a bit further into the future and maybe there is scope in other pieces of legislation where we actually look at the problems around algorithms and social media and what potential work or what potential gap the Minister sees in this particular area as well. I see that we have gotten to a particular place with this legislation but there are still issues that have arisen out of the discussions that the submitters at the select committee submitted when we were going through this process with this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd0416d32c6248f8afbdd74baecd3d39\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd0416d32c6248f8afbdd74baecd3d39\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022673543705ec840eaaf34474516ad0f65\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Jan Tinetti, sorry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200b75a11517745c395c231e216e56955\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: All good, Madam Chair, I was just going to continue on. I think that\u2019s a really good point that the member brings up because technology is changing all of the time, as the member well knows, and we have several lots of regulation that currently have the oversight of media regulation in this country at this point in time, and not all fit for purpose because technology has moved on so far. What we\u2019ve done up until this point is that we\u2019ve looked at piecemeal changes to each piece of legislation trying to bring it up to date; so what we\u2019re currently looking at is a media content regulatory review to try and bring all that together and to look at futureproofing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s currently under way. I\u2019ve got officials who are working with members from the sector looking into this. It\u2019s quite an exciting piece of work. I\u2019m sure the member will understand that this is a big piece of work. We\u2019ve got many from the sector who are very excited about it. But also, as I say, looking at how we can futureproof\u2014that\u2019s not easy, as the member knows; that\u2019s quite daunting. But just because it\u2019s difficult doesn\u2019t mean to say it\u2019s something that we shouldn\u2019t be looking into, and so that\u2019s where we\u2019re working there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EAs far as the filter is concerned, I also have asked my officials to look at maybe down the line a voluntary filter\u2014that already does exist in the child sexual exploitation area\u2014because it might not be filter as we currently know filter to be now because the member has alluded that technology is changing incredibly quickly. So there are no sweet answers to that right at this point in time, but how can we look at how we can be responsive to those changes that are happening?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u0022f043fe78b1a6443197aa496f95c9c107\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f043fe78b1a6443197aa496f95c9c107\u0022\u003ENICOLE McKEE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair; thank you, Minister. Minister, I\u2019ve got a question for you on going back to the objectionable material, and my question is around it\u2014well, sorry, I\u2019ll make a statement first.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EYou\u2019ve already said that it\u2019s been defined in law so everybody should know what is objectionable and what is not, but I have some concern about whether or not those people out there, who see something on social media and immediately share it, not knowing what we know about the law and objectionable, and how does this Act plan to work within that regime of people accidentally\u2014or, not accidentally but very quickly sharing something, not realising that it is objectionable because they don\u2019t have that same outline as we do, or knowledge of the law?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022824529e1490648dd8486a17d21638f2b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022824529e1490648dd8486a17d21638f2b\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E There are safeguards in this around that. I think that\u2019s a really good question, because we know that that can happen, that people don\u2019t understand or don\u2019t understand that that is objectionable. It is clearly defined in law, but there would have to be intent around that. There\u2019s the protection, again, here of the take-down notices, and it would go through the test of ensuring that the intent of knowing that it was objectionable would actually make that act illegal, and that is defined within the bill as it stands now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u002277ed1c96d0ed45439b7474ccc742ba60\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277ed1c96d0ed45439b7474ccc742ba60\u0022\u003ENICOLE McKEE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E And just further to that, Minister, I just wonder, where content of material hasn\u2019t actually been made objectionable yet\u2014so it\u2019s content that\u2019s still coming to be determined as being objectionable, but has been put up before that determination. I hope that makes sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da0844c00a424d69a45158c1ed0015a1\u0022\u003EHon Jan Tinetti\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022142e5cbb950f4492aa390ed8a983797e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022142e5cbb950f4492aa390ed8a983797e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Gosh, that was just in time\u2014Hon Jan Tinetti. I was just about to put the closure motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3de46fa6f9f47ef866d505705f22f44\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3de46fa6f9f47ef866d505705f22f44\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Ha, ha! I know you were, Madam Chair, but I did want to be as responsive as I could be, and I was making certain that I got that exactly as it should be the answer. So the rapid assessment within this bill allows for that to be made very, very rapidly. And so, again, then the take-down notice that will be issued to the internet service provider would enable that to be taken down very, very quickly. So it\u2019s ensuring that people, the powers that be\u2014the inspectors, in this particular case\u2014can act very, very quickly, and that\u2019s what that rapid assessment does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b516e66780bd4a4bad4a1e8b7d50e255\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b516e66780bd4a4bad4a1e8b7d50e255\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Part 1 stand part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002275f402bf1d604ed39c67f92ac89c3472\u0022\u003EPart 2  Take-down notices for objectionable online publications, offences, and regulations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00220fa5e554e0b245bb8509ee4610fc5974\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220fa5e554e0b245bb8509ee4610fc5974\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 2. This is the debate on clauses 8 to 12, \u201CTake-down notices for objectionable online publications, offences, and regulations\u201D. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u00228b3b0ca6d0b14550969ec406bdf8c942\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b3b0ca6d0b14550969ec406bdf8c942\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Part 2 of the bill amends the Act to provide Department of Internal Affairs Inspectors of Publications with the power to issue take-down notices when they identify objectionable material online. This power would be in addition to the inspectors\u2019 current practice of requesting voluntary take-down of content in individual cases. Unlike other jurisdictions, we have had to rely on voluntary requests to remove illegal online material. This change will provide certainty for Government and online content hosts by enabling statutory authority and accountability when a take-down notice is issued. An online content host that does not comply with a take-down notice as soon as reasonably practicable would be committing a breach and subject to a penalty of $200,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EThe bill also provides a definition for the term live stream, which notes that \u201Clivestream means to transmit over the Internet or any other electronic medium images or sounds as they happen\u201D. This amendment makes it clear that a live stream of objectionable material is captured under the Act. Furthermore, the bill makes it an offence to knowingly live stream objectionable content or share objectionable live streamed content. This offence is not intended to have extraterritorial application. This offence applies to the individual or organisation that live streams the content, with the penalty of imprisonment for a term not exceeding 14 years for an individual and a fine not exceeding $200,000 for a body corporate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u00228aed7339ae9b4057a5c503b32cf308b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228aed7339ae9b4057a5c503b32cf308b5\u0022\u003ENICOLE McKEE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Minister. I\u2019m going to go back to this \u201Cobjectionable\u201D part, and specifically into new section 132C, where we\u2019re actually talking about making it an offence to live stream material where we are knowing or have reasonable cause to believe that it is objectionable. And this is where I come back to my earlier questions about people, perhaps, live streaming or sharing a link to a live stream, not realising the content of that stream, of it being objectionable. And while I now recognise that there is a rapid assessment that would allow a take-down order, this bill would actually make it an offence to live stream such material before it has been made objectionable or even noted as such. So people are actually live streaming content that has not yet been made objectionable but are committing an offence in doing so if there is reasonable cause to believe that they knew about that. So I\u2019m just wondering, Minister, how you could allay some fears of people who just go about live streaming things, not realising what the content is at that time. How can we allay their fears as to creating or committing an offence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u002213ec55c1b8f74989a3434614ee5090d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213ec55c1b8f74989a3434614ee5090d2\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I think that\u2019s a really good question, and I want to go back to that term \u201Cobjectionable\u201D, which is defined in the principal Act as it stands now. We are talking about some of the most abhorrent media that any of us probably couldn\u2019t imagine. People will know that they are live streaming objectionable content because we are talking about abhorrent. I don\u2019t want to be too definitive in my example here, but to give a broad definition of what that might look like, we are talking about terrorist material or we\u2019re talking about child sexual exploitation. So for example, a young child might be being abused in a pretty abhorrent way, and someone else might be standing there live streaming them. Currently, that person live streaming would not be committing an offence of live streaming. They know that that is objectionable. That\u2019s the level that we are talking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u00224f3df62789dd4ffdafce8d3e61c3f773\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f3df62789dd4ffdafce8d3e61c3f773\u0022\u003ENICOLE McKEE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Minister, for that response. What about those people who are sharing a live stream, as new section 132C, inserted by clause 10, is specifically about sharing objectionable live streamed content? Rather than the person who is delivering the content themselves, it\u2019s those innocent people who say, \u201CWell, that person\u2019s a friend of mine on Stalkbook, and not Facebook, and I will share their content, because usually it\u2019s been quite good.\u201D, but they\u2019re committing an offence in doing so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u00224030f779caa94893a92d553cd5eee1c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224030f779caa94893a92d553cd5eee1c3\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E The bill will not penalise all instances of live streaming objectionable content. There is a threshold, as defined in the bill, that needs to be met, and I\u2019d just like to read this particular part here. Individuals would commit \u201Can offence if (a) they livestreamed content knowing or having reasonable cause to believe it [was] objectionable; or (b) [shared] content, or information about how to access content,\u201D, and they need to meet these two points: \u201C(i) knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that the content is objectionable; and (ii) with the intent of promoting or encouraging criminal acts or acts of terrorism.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003ESo there\u2019s quite a high threshold there. It\u2019s not just about \u201COh, this is my friend.\u201D, or \u201CI\u2019ve shared something from my friend.\u201D, not realising as they get through the stream that it is objectionable. There are those two bullet points that need to be met which makes sure that that protection is afforded to those people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022 data-id=\u002284841e14f5ea44c897896c9f435c482e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284841e14f5ea44c897896c9f435c482e\u0022\u003ENICOLA GRIGG (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair; thank you, Minister. I just wondered\u2014I sat in on the select committee and I think we all agree it was all very technical and complicated at times, so for anyone, a layperson, could you please explain just the general process? If an objectionable live stream is occurring, how does the report mechanism work, how does the take-down notice work? Just in simple layman\u2019s terms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221adacd0027d742b68b5a96324bc0c20e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m seeking a call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295b92555c3044817bf182dd80663ac93\u0022\u003ENICOLA GRIGG\u003C/span\u003E: Further to that, Minister, you\u2019ve talked about the fact that there\u2019s no extraterritorial application. I know that was a concern for many. I just have a couple of questions on that, in that how does one police multinational platforms like your Facebooks and your YouTubes? And secondly, how will this bill prevent those sharing objectionable material who are actively averting the law by using virtual private networks?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u002251971891df8b4b46b34b8d32964c0a58\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002251971891df8b4b46b34b8d32964c0a58\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E So, Madam Chair, I wanted to just double-check on that because I think it\u2019s really important that we get that, as you say, in layman\u2019s terms, or laypeople\u2019s terms, I should say. Because the member is so right\u2014it is incredibly technical.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003ESo, basically, right there we can\u2014and this is simplifying it a little bit as well in this particular instance, because it is quite complex, even though it can be quite quick. So the department would ask the chief censor to make an interim classification. At that particular point in time, that interim classification is able to then determine the take-down notice, and so the department will be working on the take-down notice, and that gives them time then to solidify that interim classification into that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EI didn\u2019t quite get the member\u2019s question about the extraterritorial\u2014I heard that in the background as I was listening there. I wonder if the member would mind repeating that for me, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a373faf0836349898261aaf653a31563\u0022\u003ENicola Grigg\u003C/span\u003E: Certainly. I\u2019m sure it falls within the Standing Orders, Madam Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c330d4fde886471fb3d490143c4b239a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c330d4fde886471fb3d490143c4b239a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: If the member seeks the call, it does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a8b5a5b46254fa39446a54c3b4c194a\u0022\u003ENicola Grigg\u003C/span\u003E: May I please, Madam Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002274955deb059646769191227b96e99e7c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274955deb059646769191227b96e99e7c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Nicola Grigg.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022 data-id=\u0022af91968e98e7472e85f039f1b6f719b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af91968e98e7472e85f039f1b6f719b1\u0022\u003ENICOLA GRIGG (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Minister. I understand that you were talking at the time and fully appreciate that\u2014there\u2019s a lot to take on board\u2014but it was around the extraterritorial nature of the application in that, how will we, as a jurisdiction here in New Zealand, police the multinational platforms like the YouTubes and the Facebooks when a live stream could potentially be being streamed from offshore? And, slightly related to that, how will this bill prevent those sharing objectionable material or live streaming it if they are trying to actively avert the law by using virtual private networks?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022968085161705486d9be8cee4ff5d992d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022968085161705486d9be8cee4ff5d992d\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m really happy that you could re-ask that, because it is a really important point there, that this work doesn\u2019t happen in isolation, in New Zealand alone. We have international partners that we are working with on this material, and I think the member might have been part of a group that went over to the department and had a look and a talk with the people who are working in this area, and an understanding of just how wide this work is and the amount of collaboration that happens internationally. So the international partners work together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EThe take-down notices here are really important, because it sends a signal from New Zealand law, which we haven\u2019t had before because it\u2019s been that voluntary process. But this take-down notice, as it stands at the moment, will send a message that that\u2019s New Zealand law, and our international partners will be able to work in that area with those big players that are based internationally as well. I know that the member will get a sense of this from the work that you have done going over to the department and talking with those people, but the work that they do is incredibly important, and is a real credit to the people who are working in that area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e753c1169d184363b01edfc1503d8edc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 110\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; New Zealand National 33; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati Maori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d833f8b0f09a4e9bb62bbfbb17e4f2ac\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022aed63228cfa0423ba0fe3e5fcfb107e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aed63228cfa0423ba0fe3e5fcfb107e9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to our final debate; that\u2019s debate on clauses 1 to 3: title, commencement, and principal Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb518d2cb87447fea7bcdf928bad11fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb518d2cb87447fea7bcdf928bad11fb\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E The commencement date of the bill is currently set for 30 April 2021; however, COVID-19 has caused disruptions to the work, and this initial commencement date has since passed. I\u2019m tabling a Supplementary Order Paper which amends the commencement date to 1 February 2022 to reflect the high priority of implementing the bill. The time frame for commencement does not need to allow for the promulgation of regulations. This will ensure that other key provisions, such as the live stream provisions, can take effect immediately after commencement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022dab642c4fdb045538eb8a8dc15596cc0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dab642c4fdb045538eb8a8dc15596cc0\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki - King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just a question in the interim on the name of the bill. Given that we\u2019ve had our fair share of laughs over the last few weeks around the Films, Videos, and Publications Classification (Urgent Interim Classification of Publications and Prevention of Online Harm) Amendment Bill, did the Minister actually have a look and see if there was some way of simplifying the title of the bill, or did it just get too hard?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u002289da1bd6415a431194c1a6b2a13558a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289da1bd6415a431194c1a6b2a13558a4\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E The member will be delighted to know that when this bill gets passed its third reading, it will then fold into the main Act and we\u2019ll know it as the classifications Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224f97e9fbe4c34a1cb26f2218fd7b02f9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 110\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; New Zealand National 33; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00223e212069c0d44490b71148efed92cb02\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e212069c0d44490b71148efed92cb02\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment to Clause 2 as set out on Supplementary Order Paper 75 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7e269d8a3b640969fe78912e81a8f0c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7e269d8a3b640969fe78912e81a8f0c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Clause 2 as amended stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4950d13796046d8aeaae478a219ecc8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4950d13796046d8aeaae478a219ecc8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: I will report this bill with amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d61336a9172645e2949202ee065c63fe\u0022\u003EMaritime Transport (MARPOL Annex VI) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002204c44092a6074c2da226b34d3e873719\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225e0ac750753142c48b90d2a79edf7c94\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Maritime Transport Act 1994\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5f498c728454728a7efd405d8228abc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5f498c728454728a7efd405d8228abc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Maritime Transport (MARPOL Annex VI) Amendment Bill. We come first to Part 1. Part 1 is the debate on clauses 3 to 16, \u201CAmendments to Maritime Transport Act 1994\u201D. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00222180fb5698b04f01be14737ba6888f5f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222180fb5698b04f01be14737ba6888f5f\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Look, I didn\u2019t sit on the select committee that considered this legislation, so I\u2019m coming to this with a view of a layperson. Some of the terms in the legislation are a bit perplexing, and I\u2019m hoping that the Minister will be able to offer some advice about, for instance, the terminology in Part 1, clause 4(1), which refers to \u201Cfuel oil\u201D at the bottom there. It means \u201Cany fuel delivered to and intended for combustion purposes for propulsion or operation on board a ship, including gas, distillate, [or] residual fuels\u201D, and what I\u2019d like to know is: how was that definition arrived at and is it extensive enough? For instance, does it include futureproofing fuel sources? So does it, for instance, include the prospect of hydrogen fuel cell propulsion, and what about the potential for some vessels\u2014I understand that Wellington is soon to have an electric tugboat in place. So I\u2019m keen to know about what those various types of fuel might mean. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ENow there is a further section: the amendment to section 222(1)(b)(i) in clause 4(2) refers to dumping, but immediately above that it refers to discharge, and I\u2019m wondering why the rather more pejorative term \u201Cdumping\u201D is used rather than \u201Cdischarge\u201D and why there isn\u2019t some kind of consistency in terms of the vocabulary around those matters. I\u2019m hoping the Minister may be able to give some clarity on those. I\u2019ve got some other questions later.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u002263f15542fa9a4c8a917b844d6defe907\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263f15542fa9a4c8a917b844d6defe907\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E In terms of laypeople, it\u2019s the member and myself both. So my suggestion in that particular instance\u2014and while I\u2019m waiting for my officials to come in\u2014would be that maybe the member could put those questions in writing, and I\u2019m sure that the Minister in charge of the bill would be more than happy to give an answer to him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u002213d20756caa34cf5b55876e3bc012618\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213d20756caa34cf5b55876e3bc012618\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you, Minister, for the kind invitation, but that\u2019s not the purpose of the committee of the whole House stage. The purpose of this stage is for the Minister to reply to questions from members in this committee, and I would have thought that the member would be on top of this legislation. I understand that she\u2019s sitting in for the Minister whose bill this name is in, but that doesn\u2019t absolve her from the responsibility to be able to answer what I think are some reasonably basic questions\u2014and it may be that with the arrival of the official, we may be able to get some answers. So I will give the Minister an opportunity for a brief consultation with officials, and then I have other questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u0022869f38c5ba134155b735739edeeff1e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022869f38c5ba134155b735739edeeff1e4\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Perhaps while the Minister is getting that advice, I could put some further questions forward. As my colleague just talked about earlier, this import of low-sulphur fuel is going to be required, and I wonder if the Minister could tell us about any modelling that has been done in terms of the potential cost to domestic operators and also a time line for implementation. Given that there is going to be this additional cost for domestic operators, I\u2019m sure they will be wanting to know a little bit more detail about time frames and when they need to be budgeting for this. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022aebffecaa8e147cea4e7c1262be25edd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aebffecaa8e147cea4e7c1262be25edd\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Internal Affairs)\u003C/span\u003E: Implementing Annex VI requires expansion to a number of Maritime New Zealand and Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) functions. Additional operational funding is needed to achieve this. We expect the cost of implementing Annex VI obligations to be approximately $1.9 million per year for Maritime New Zealand and $1,078,427 per year for MBIE. We expect the cost of the regime to be borne by the shipping and fuel industries through the maritime and fuel levies. This would be subject to further analysis and consultation as part of the funding review. However, in March 2020, the ad hoc Cabinet committee on COVID-19 response suspended all funding reviews across border and aviation agencies for 12 months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022bad5ed91ebc44897b35986bd6a09b754\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bad5ed91ebc44897b35986bd6a09b754\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E I wondered if I could come back to the use of vocabulary. So in clause 4(2)(a) and (b), relating to \u201Cdischarge\u201D, there are sort of nice words about including the \u201Crelease, disposal, spilling, leaking, pumping, emitting, or emptying;\u201D, but then paragraph (b) goes on to say, \u201Cdoes not include\u2014(i) dumping\u201D, and I\u2019m intrigued to know why there can\u2019t be some consistency of vocabulary. \u201CDumping\u201D is a pejorative word, whereas \u201Crelease, disposal, spilling, leaking,\u201D is a much kinder use of the English language. It seems to me that there is a specific exclusion in the legislation that precludes the evil dumping but that allows for the inclusion of disposal, spilling, leaking, pumping, emitting, or emptying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u00224a076d3157ae45d1ac81067eecaca4b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a076d3157ae45d1ac81067eecaca4b7\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Given the situation that we find ourselves in at the moment with supply chain delays and particular issues around shipping and delay of goods and services both in and out of the country, can the Minister give us an assurance that this has been considered in the time line and time frame for implementation to ensure that even greater shortages of goods and services don\u2019t occur with a further breakdown of the supply chain?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022f77476202d7d48f4959b1909f7d7176d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f77476202d7d48f4959b1909f7d7176d\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I just wanted to go back to the previous member\u2019s question about dumping, because I know that that\u2019s twice that he\u2019s asked it, so it\u2019s obviously very important. It\u2019s because it is consistent with the Maritime Transport Act as it stands at the moment. It deals with different provisions. The word \u201Cdumping\u201D is in the Act, in four different provisions, and so it is consistent with what has already been in the in the main Act. So it is consistent with the legislation as it stands at the moment. It\u2019s not pejorative; it is just around the fact of consistency and getting consistency within our legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00224bfbbe78c29a42d18ce8875127301c14\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224bfbbe78c29a42d18ce8875127301c14\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E That is my very point. So in the sentence in the clause immediately above, it refers to \u201Cdischarge\u201D. So why in that sentence are nice words like \u201Crelease, disposal, spilling, leaking, pumping, emitting, or emptying;\u201D used, but the word \u201Cdumping\u201D isn\u2019t used? I would have thought that a polite way of using the language was actually to say what is meant, and if dumping is what is meant, then the word \u201Cdumping\u201D should be used throughout the legislation, rather than just in a way that is selective and not consistent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1ba6ba64440438996d76363bc1102d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1ba6ba64440438996d76363bc1102d3\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E So just to confirm that we\u2019re talking about two different parts of the Act. We\u2019ve got dumping and discharge used in different parts of the Act dealing with completely different provisions, so to make that distinction, we\u2019ve got the different language that\u2019s being used in that particular point because we\u2019re dealing with completely different provisions. It could be something that eventually, down the track\u2014when we\u2019re looking at the Plain Language Bill for example\u2014could be tidied up for that purpose, but at the moment, that\u2019s how it stands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022b46005820644475e944698f93d33d407\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b46005820644475e944698f93d33d407\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E So what, then, was the policy initiative behind not taking this opportunity to tidy up the vocabulary to actually bring consistency across the two regulatory statutes? It strikes me that that would have been an obvious and simple thing to do. The Minister in the chair has available to her an army of officials to bring logic and sense to legislative changes of this sort.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EBut while the Minister is consulting with the officials on that matter, there is a further matter I want to raise, and that relates, again, to clause 4(2)(b)(ii), and it provides the statutory exclusion for \u201Cthe release of harmful substances for the purposes of legitimate scientific research\u201D. I\u2019m keen to know what the parameters of the disposal and/or dumping may be of harmful substances could be for the purposes of legitimate scientific research. In what quantum would be permissible scientific research to pollute, to dump, and to give waste to toxic materials in the name of science? How would that be quantified, when would it be justified, and who would make those decisions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u0022bee9c6c044e64f8f8c8b2da3d3754cc9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bee9c6c044e64f8f8c8b2da3d3754cc9\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. If we could return to the issue of supply chain disruption, can the Minister assure us that there will be low-sulphur fuel available for domestic operators, and has that been factored into the time line for implementation? And is she able to give us an assurance that there will not be further delays to our supply chain by the implementation of this Annex VI?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002250b0d8c9bd7e42c8b7f9699fe0353b83\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250b0d8c9bd7e42c8b7f9699fe0353b83\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki - King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Just following on from that question, it is actually quite similar. So in clause 4(3)(b), it talks about \u201Canything that comprises, or is intended to comprise, any part of a ship, offshore installation, or pipeline, \u2026 that is or \u2026 intended to be installed on or fitted or supplied to a ship,\u201D, so we are, again, talking about marine protection. This bill was done in a global context, and we are looking for new fuels. So, in terms of anything being installed on a ship in the future, does that include any new plant or any new pipes or anything that might be used to use a new fuel that\u2019s going to go through that ship so everything will be caught in the intent of this bill? That is my question. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u002248cb5ca65d80450c87a85857d0fa549c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248cb5ca65d80450c87a85857d0fa549c\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I just wanted to take a very quick call around the supply chain issue. I have been assured that where\u2014I can give assurance around the supply chain in that particular point in time. There is a bit of a side issue, of course, with the closure of Marsden Point, but I have been told that we\u2019re OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf972c3d5c79404b9a855da552bca4d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf972c3d5c79404b9a855da552bca4d6\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Just wanted to remind the Minister in the chair, Jan Tinetti, I\u2019m still waiting for an answer to my questions around the release of harmful toxic substances for \u201Clegitimate scientific research\u201D in terms of quantum, who makes the decision, and what possible examples might the Minister have for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EBut while the Minister is consulting with officials on that one, I\u2019m keen to go on to clause 4(4), which repeals the definition of \u201Creception facility\u201D. In the spirit of plain English, I would\u2019ve thought that as a layperson, most New Zealanders would consider a reception facility to be a wedding venue, possibly one that required the deposit be paid. But here we have it in this piece of legislation; a reception facility is nothing further from a wedding venue than could possibly be imagined. It seems that a reception facility is to now include \u201Ca facility for the reception of\u2014(a) harmful substances from ships \u2026 (b) sediment (as defined in section 444A(3)\u201D and \u201Cballast water from ships\u201D has been removed. But I\u2019m intrigued to know again, given the clarion cry for plain English, why the term \u201Creception facility\u201D is being used when the popular context for reception facility bears no relevance at all to this piece of legislation. I wondered whether officials might assist with that and whether a deposit had been paid on the reception facility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022535aad5d0dd74b198395e328f58ce4e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022535aad5d0dd74b198395e328f58ce4e4\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I just wanted to go back to the question around exemptions. This would be used very rarely and would be decided upon by the Director of Maritime New Zealand and would be carried out in times when there was research into areas such as emissions reduction, which are very important areas. So, as I say, it has to be put into there because it\u2019s very rare that it would be used in New Zealand waters, but when we\u2019re talking about research of that nature around emissions reduction, it\u2019s really important that we give the Director of Maritime New Zealand that ability to be able to do that, to be able to make those exemptions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00222f0f47f448644579ae530004048d260d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f0f47f448644579ae530004048d260d\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Surely, that can\u2019t be. I can\u2019t imagine a situation where, in the name of climate change and emissions reductions, there would be a need for the release of harmful substances. What kinds of harmful substances does the Minister have in mind? What possible situation could arise where that could occur? I know that the limits of science are forever expanding, but this strikes me as literally a statutory exemption to pollute, which is exactly the opposite of the intent of this piece of legislation. It seems to me to be quite illogical that on the one hand, we are trying in this bill to provide for shipping that is cleaner and greener and more environmentally friendly, and yet we have a statutory exclusion that allows for the dumping of harmful substances\u2014toxic substances, probably\u2014all in the name of what we\u2019re told is emissions reduction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ENow, I and, I think, some of my colleagues\u2014Stuart Smith, who is our spokesperson on climate change, looks as perplexed as I feel about this issue. Again, it seems to me that there is an inconsistency here that hasn\u2019t adequately been explained, and just using emissions reduction seems to me to be nothing short of a mere convenience to try and justify a statutory exclusion for the dumping of toxic waste by parties unknown in quantities unknown in circumstances unknown for purposes unknown. The Minister can surely give us some insight into what limitations might be provided and what protections there could be for our beautiful natural marine environment against this statutory exclusion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u00222ff4f12616d84aa2ab7a49fdd374e4cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ff4f12616d84aa2ab7a49fdd374e4cf\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E This is a provision that has to be there as part of Annex VI. It is part of the trials for ship emission reduction and control technology research. It is something that there is no choice around; it has to be there. As I\u2019ve said, it\u2019ll be used very rarely in the New Zealand context. That is why it has been given to the highest authority in the Director of Maritime New Zealand to be able to make that exception.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u00227960129dbf5947959beb318951af7680\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227960129dbf5947959beb318951af7680\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019ve come very late to this debate, but I\u2019m coming representing the wonderful port of Picton. We have significant issues with emissions, and MARPOL VI can\u2019t come quick enough for the people in Picton. The latest airshed readings from the ferry terminal in Picton, in particular, are quite worrying. In fact, this has come quite late and I\u2019m very concerned about the health of the people of Picton due to the air quality issues. I know, in particular, the soot that comes out in small flakes and contaminates washing on the line, for example, in less than favourable conditions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ESo MARPOL VI, I know, decreases the emissions from ships in general, but Picton has greater issues with emissions than Tauranga does, which has a hundred times the number of ship movements that Picton does, and it\u2019s related to the geography in that port. So does this bill in any way take any account of the particular circumstances in particular ports that will exacerbate the issues that otherwise might be fine in places like Tauranga or Auckland\u2019s port or Lyttelton rather than a small port with particular geographical issues, with hills around it and the comings and goings of ferries in particular, rather than the giant ships that are coming and going\u2014container ships, particularly\u2014in Tauranga or Auckland or other ports around the country? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a very confined space. It is subject to a lot of wind, but some days there isn\u2019t any and that\u2019s the days when we have issues, and I know that some of those ships are not emitting in large quantities as they would be in the case of those aforementioned large ports. So my question is: is there any account of that in the bill, and, if so, can the Minister please explain how that would work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u00222a94f0a69001443783a874f7be52c81b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a94f0a69001443783a874f7be52c81b\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E The answer to my previous question about the availability of the low-sulphur fuel was \u201CWe\u2019re OK.\u201D, and I don\u2019t think that\u2019s a terribly technical explanation of really what amount of low-sulphur fuel is available for domestic operators. Is there sufficient low-sulphur fuel available, and over what time frame will it then enable implementation of Annex VI?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6de2f1e73134d40b0772da706749c1a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6de2f1e73134d40b0772da706749c1a\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. While the Minister\u2019s seeking an answer to my colleague Penny Simmonds\u2019 very good question, clause 4 of the bill relates to an amendment to differentiate between the terms \u201Cballast water\u201D and \u201Csediment\u201D, and my simple question is: what does the Minister understand to be the distinction between ballast water and sediment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022 data-id=\u002218b996fc03664a76be8732846fb4151e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218b996fc03664a76be8732846fb4151e\u0022\u003EDr JAMES McDOWALL (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just to add to that, I\u2019d like to know what assurances the Minister can give that any requirement for reception facilities may be negotiated to the satisfaction of the port operator to avoid any unnecessary costs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022091be37083934a42af69da8398ef4bde\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022091be37083934a42af69da8398ef4bde\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Part 1 stand part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ceec3d3b1a0645d18be935fcbf872b64\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ce87d444b0a48c2a35eac4a36713e4a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: I have started. The question is that Part 1 stand part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002255d7b6e1e09c4a01958217b52c0ef084\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to Maritime Transport (Marine Protection Conventions) Order 1999\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d124132834724fe8a2839553e2303b75\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d124132834724fe8a2839553e2303b75\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 2. This is the debate on clauses 17 and 18, \u201CAmendments to Maritime Transport (Marine Protection Conventions) Order 1999\u201D. The question is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203b9ead865064d009bc4608b2ef3c1ff\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022895eddda48184e85a0db5e714ca7279d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that Part 2 stand part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c32b669b3bd40ff82071e0530cccd52\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s very quick. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u002211099f447cc140e2a36fdc70c63e23c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211099f447cc140e2a36fdc70c63e23c0\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Goodness me! It\u2019s the quick and the dead today. Thank you very much, Madam Chair. When we were debating Part 1 of this legislation, I asked some questions about the exclusion that allowed for the dumping of harmful substances for scientific research, and the answer that was given was \u201CWell, it\u2019s part of the annex. It\u2019s part of what we\u2019re doing.\u201D, and there was sort of no answer given to it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo what I would like to know in Part 2 is it says that \u201CThis Part amends the Maritime Transport (Marine Protection Conventions) Order 1999.\u201D, and then clause 3 of the order is amended by clause 18 so that certain international conventions are declared to be marine protection conventions: \u201CAfter clause 3(b), insert: (ba) Annex VI of the International Convention for the Prevention of Pollution from Ships,\u201D. So my question to the Minister is: what would be the implications and why can\u2019t this Parliament, as a sovereign Parliament, make an exclusion to prevent the dumping of toxic waste in the name of science when, in fact, this is a piece of legislation that is going through the Parliament of New Zealand? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI would have thought that we didn\u2019t need to simply adopt holus-bolus what is being thrust upon us from another jurisdiction in another part of the world, and when we are going to adopt clause 18, why can\u2019t we carve out an exclusion that would make this piece of legislation uniquely Kiwi in much the same way that we did with banning\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00229ebdbad8cc3e4a788bc846fde8c60bd5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ebdbad8cc3e4a788bc846fde8c60bd5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! The member is to refer to measures that are contained in the bill, not matters that he thinks should be contained in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022 data-id=\u00228a9bdbe6272147518c312d0ea4c1553c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a9bdbe6272147518c312d0ea4c1553c\u0022\u003EDr JAMES McDOWALL (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Also to the Minister: have they considered what liability may be incurred by ports which are required to accept sediments from visiting ships, and what support does the Government think is appropriate to ensure that the environmental costs and risks are not left with ports?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002278732355bcfc407d9b1bc198b1599043\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002278732355bcfc407d9b1bc198b1599043\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki - King Country):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d just like the Minister to clarify, because it\u2019s my understanding, as we debate this committee of the whole House on this bill, that we are one of the last two countries to sign up to this convention. So if the Minister could just clarify that for the committee, please. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u002270537320b787445d8dcc70684d8d096c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270537320b787445d8dcc70684d8d096c\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E My understanding is also that we are in the final 3 percent of countries to join in implementing MARPOL Annex VI, and given that we have waited this long, it would be useful to know a little bit more about the time frame for implementation. Clearly, it hasn\u2019t been something we\u2019ve wanted to rush into, and so we would hope that the implementation isn\u2019t going to impact unduly on the domestic operators and, therefore, our supply chain\u2014so if we could get a little more information about the implementation timing, given that we are at the very end of countries adopting this. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u00228af4cb0c30c14418a8b99d939b4c4697\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228af4cb0c30c14418a8b99d939b4c4697\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Internal Affairs)\u003C/span\u003E: Cabinet was advised in 2019 when agreement was sought from New Zealand to accede to MARPOL Annex VI that November 2021 would be a realistic time frame for New Zealand to accede. This provided a reasonable balance between competing stakeholder views, some of which asked for earlier accession; some later. It was also thought that accession at the time would insulate New Zealand ships from any initial price spikes that were expected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EIn January 2020, when new low-sulphur fuel requirements came into force internationally, COVID-19 initially dampened fuel demand, allowing more time for switching to low-sulphur fuels, but demand is now growing. Cabinet\u2019s decision to accede was subject to parliamentary treaty examination, which was completed in June 2020.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003ESince September 2020, the Ministry of Transport and Maritime New Zealand have been engaging with industry stakeholders to build awareness of the forthcoming requirements and to develop an understanding of the impacts and how specific aspects of MARPOL Annex VI can be implemented. Parliamentary Counsel Office started drafting the bill in January 2020, a process that takes approximately three months. The bill was then introduced in May 2020.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u002228981cb3c0f040c1acf8270a49c5e68a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228981cb3c0f040c1acf8270a49c5e68a\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Minister, for that additional information. Given the changes that have occurred in the last few months, particularly around supply chains and delays, does the Minister still believe that the time frames and time lines originally looked at are reasonable for domestic operators? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5286764bd654a739b2d0f6b8d4cd13d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5286764bd654a739b2d0f6b8d4cd13d\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022239b33d027474596b93e638246360874\u0022\u003EDr James McDowall\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00223e2d10d8b90f4aae8b678b036dfa5ab4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e2d10d8b90f4aae8b678b036dfa5ab4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I take the member, if members want to take a call in a committee stage, they\u2019ve got to get up and take a call. Otherwise, I will close the debate. However, we have Dr James McDowall. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022 data-id=\u002297f4fb101edb4c81ba4343aa9161d2e8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002297f4fb101edb4c81ba4343aa9161d2e8\u0022\u003EDr JAMES McDOWALL (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I was just going to say, \u201CPoint of order.\u201D, but I\u2019ll sit back down. My apologies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002266f0c2a247bd43d2a63231becbbc66eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266f0c2a247bd43d2a63231becbbc66eb\u0022\u003EGREG O\u2019CONNOR (Labour\u2014\u014Ch\u0101riu):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002208af059299fd47ec863d666241270029\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208af059299fd47ec863d666241270029\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the question be now put. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00221bdb32a7a1cf4abaa2aca27723b5747c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221bdb32a7a1cf4abaa2aca27723b5747c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022feb079981a274467bfd4eba10b583943\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Dinner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb830a72d8e14a799ccace56c671a3bc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Members, when I feel I need assistance when I\u2019m ruling, I\u2019ll certainly let you know. But in the meantime, the Chair is going to leave the Chair for the dinner break, and we\u2019ll see you all at 7. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 5.56 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022416eeea01f264083b324c2bf76e21d62\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0d24454ea9e43a6a8acbd467827c589\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0d24454ea9e43a6a8acbd467827c589\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa. The committee is resumed. Members, before the dinner break, we had just arrived to the debate on clauses 1 and 2 of the Maritime Transport (MARPOL Annex VI) Amendment Bill. Therefore, the question is that clause 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228e9c7a5bbb3e459b9d9d842827b10a27\u0022\u003EHealth (Fluoridation of Drinking Water) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ea80d809db20428e9aa4974a238662d2\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002225dc9e3c857743bdb5b96e15c7b32798\u0022\u003EParts 1 and 2, Schedule, and clauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00221c5b6e5928164a9b8a0eba4ba1f16953\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c5b6e5928164a9b8a0eba4ba1f16953\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is now in committee on the Health (Fluoridation of Drinking Water) Amendment Bill. We come first to Part 1. This is the debate on clauses 4 to 10 and the Schedule: amendments relating to drinking water. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9b16a719b2b4d05ba469dda568c4a06\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9b16a719b2b4d05ba469dda568c4a06\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. I seek leave to have all questions taken as one debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002283a540c6e72d4872ada83709478c1d2a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283a540c6e72d4872ada83709478c1d2a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There appears to be none. Therefore, the question now is that Parts 1 and 2, the Schedule, and clauses 1 to 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u0022175e666ea41949bcaa4b2db9bf44adc3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022175e666ea41949bcaa4b2db9bf44adc3\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, thank you very much. It\u2019s a pleasure to speak to the House in committee tonight on this very important bill. I think it\u2019s worth just recapping some of past events, because it\u2019s been some time since the bill was last in the House. Just one of the things that I reflected on in our second reading debate most recently was that I think every party that spoke in the debate agreed on the importance of fluoridation as a health intervention to make sure that all people, but particularly young people, are able to enjoy good oral health. In a time when many important health interventions are subject to misinformation, I thought it was a heartening reflection on the state of our democracy that all parties would align themselves with science on such an important decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003ETo recap the journey of this bill, the Health (Fluoridation of Drinking Water) Amendment Bill came to Parliament and was submitted in 2016. It sought to respond to the request of territorial authorities to take the decision making from a local government setting into a health setting because the territorial authorities were often lobbied very vigorously on decisions about fluoridation and they felt poorly resourced to be able to respond to those questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EAt the time of this Parliament, the bill had already been to the Health Committee and it had had extensive hearings in the past. In this Parliament, what the Government has sought to do is to move decision making from district health boards, as in the original bill, to the director-general, and we\u2019ve done that to seek a nationally consistent approach. We know that, currently, we have a patchwork of different approaches across the country, with only 50 percent of the population having access to water supplies that are fluoridated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EWe also wanted to give the decision to an official who is resourced and equipped to make the decision and take the science of fluoride away from being from being litigated in every part of the country. So that is the purpose of Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 38 that was referred to select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI want to thank all the members of the select committee who considered the bill. They were focused on the\u2014sorry, that considered the SOP, because the select committee hearing was just on that matter, and I appreciate the time in which they applied themselves to those questions. Of the submissions that they received in relation to the issues in the SOP, the majority, as is documented in their report, favoured the approach that we\u2019re outlining in this SOP\u2014that the decision maker should be the director-general\u2014and mostly from the perspective of promoting national consistency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI notice the select committee has also made a very helpful suggestion that the director-general should consult with the Director of Public Health. Our intention is to support that SOP as well. It\u2019s a very constructive suggestion and, of course, it reminds us that there may be situations in the future where the director-general is not a public health physician and the opportunity to get that extra advice from someone specialist in public health would add to the consideration that these issues are given. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m very happy to take questions from members on the SOP and the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u002263f519988de642fa844712c48abd4cbf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263f519988de642fa844712c48abd4cbf\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I had the privilege of being on the Health Committee and hearing the submitters. There were a number, and it was quite emotive at times. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EOne of the big fears was around the decision making being taken from the community, and I wonder if the Minister can outline beyond the Supplementary Order Paper that has been put forward just what sort of consultation might take place at a local community level, given the sense of distrust that we did see coming from a number of the submitters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb839b2805d24ee486bc9c938bd8a2a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb839b2805d24ee486bc9c938bd8a2a1\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY (National\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. It\u2019s a privilege to take a call on this fluoridation bill. It is interesting. As the Minister outlined, we did the first reading in 2016\u2014I think I might have spoken on it back then\u2014and then the second reading in about June or July last year. So, as the Minister outlined, it\u2019s good that the parties are taking a science-based approach and agreeing on the principle of fluoride, but as we know, especially with this Government, the issue is going to be around implementation. With the Government\u2019s announcement of the traffic light system, I think the irony wasn\u2019t lost then when it was about all DHBs going to be 90 percent, and I suppose with this bill as well, it is based on DHBs. Now, tomorrow, a bill will come before this House where DHBs will have a bulldozer driven through them and, unlike the health and disability review, which advocated for maybe five or seven or nine DHBS, we\u2019re going to go down to none. So it will be interesting to hear from the Minister how this will line up with the abolishment of DHBs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EThen, probably, it will be also interesting to hear, of course, how is the actual implementation of fluoride going to work under the proposed three waters programme as well. Who will be responsible if the three waters are going to be taken out of local councils or\u2014I don\u2019t think we can even call them local democracies in this bill now. It changes to \u201Clocal authority\u201D. So will we have to come back and change this as well? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003ESo there are some competing priorities here, although, as we said, the bill arrived in 2016. But now, in 2021, we face a very different landscape. So we won\u2019t be able to talk about the decision making going to DHBs, because we won\u2019t have any, and who will actually provide the fluoride or who will put it in the water system if we move to three waters and that is moved to some entity that we can\u2019t see in the legislation yet?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc81b7abb7e846a2a55b89277ef6f555\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc81b7abb7e846a2a55b89277ef6f555\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei):\u003C/span\u003E I can\u2019t resist taking a call on this bill. I want to congratulate Minister Verrall for getting into what I\u2019d call probably a fight she\u2019ll never win. I\u2019ve been around the fluoridation issue for 20 years now and I\u2019ve never seen a consensus achieved anywhere on fluoridation, and I can\u2019t see it happening now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EBut the really interesting thing about the whole fluoridation issue is it\u2019s been with councils. We proposed it went to the district health boards in 2016, I think Matt Doocey said. In my view, that was never going to work. I don\u2019t think this will work either, because I just think it\u2019s such a contentious issue, this fluoridation of drinking water. Frankly, I\u2019ve got to say, I support the fluoridation of drinking water. When you have teeth as bad as I\u2019ve got and you were never in a fluoridated water supply, you\u2019d know why I support it, and it\u2019s pretty obvious that we should support it. So I don\u2019t really have a constructive question of the Minister on it, but I do think it\u2019s worth commenting that I think it\u2019s a very brave move, and I think it\u2019s worth trying anything we can to achieve the objective that this bill sets out to achieve, but I\u2019m just not sure how you\u2019re ever going to get a consensus on it. So that\u2019s all I really wanted to say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI do think, though, that it\u2019s an issue that we should persevere with as a Parliament, and I don\u2019t think you can make one rule for Bulls, where I live, and another rule for R\u0101tana or for Whangaehu, where you live, Mr Chair. So I think that the issue that we\u2019ve got is it\u2019s got to be consistent across New Zealand, and we should, effectively, where we can, supply fluoridated drinking water, particularly for our young people, because it\u2019s just the way it is. So I don\u2019t want to ask you a question, Minister; I want to congratulate you. Good luck.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u0022521b2136e83549d597eda393dcd78f76\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022521b2136e83549d597eda393dcd78f76\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and I want to thank Mr McKelvie for that honest contribution and his wishes of good luck\u2014I appreciate it. To address some of the earlier questions, the Supplementary Order Paper does require that the director-general engage with local authorities on their readiness and the cost of implementing change, but, as I stated earlier, it does not relitigate the decision about the public health rationale or science of fluoridation. There will be a need to seek information on the health status of the local population, as well. I\u2019d just note that the original bill did not require any community engagement in its original form, either. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI do not view concerns about the proposed reforms of district health boards as problematic for the passage of this bill; in fact, it is required. It makes an even stronger case for the need for this bill, because there will not be district health boards in the future health system. The three waters bill would change the role of local authorities to that of water entities in terms of the bodies that would be responsible for having to fluoridate water on direction by the director-general, and consequential amendments to change the entity referred to would have to be made through the Water Services Bill, should that bill pass.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u00229a77e5c504474c46bb2467ae26a1c035\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a77e5c504474c46bb2467ae26a1c035\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Thank you, Minister Verrall, for your answers to those questions. Minister, the concern, I suppose, is the context in which this bill is sitting of a number of centralisations of vocational education, of DHBs, of mandating of vaccinations, and so it\u2019s really a question around implementation. Around the roll-out for COVID vaccinations, there was a vacuum which allowed all sorts of other opinions to grow legs. My concern around this is the implementation of the fluoridation of drinking water. What education or what implementation information is going to go out so that there isn\u2019t a groundswell of people who are anti the fluoridation of drinking water, because we definitely heard in the submissions that a number of people are deeply suspicious, and I suppose, when we see this sitting within the context of a lot of centralised decision-making, it will add to that sense of distrust. So my question is around information sharing, education, and ensuring that people are in the right space to be able to accept fluoridation of water supplies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u002292e85d37b146411398ea5ed887d565e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292e85d37b146411398ea5ed887d565e7\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Those matters are not directly relevant to the bill we\u2019re debating, but the Prime Minister\u2019s Chief Science Advisor has recently assisted with that important matter of making sure that good information is available to the public by publishing a detailed report of all of the decades of science around fluoridation. So I think there is access to New Zealand - specific, high-quality information, and I think that it is important that those sources remain up to date, as the Ministry of Health has also kept up-to-date sources of information throughout this time, in the many years that the bill has been before Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EThe other point to make, though, is that I think it will not be possible to address all of the concern and opposition about the bill in the community, but it is important to have gone through a process of having those proper, evidence-based reviews by an independent person, and that\u2019s what\u2019s been done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb89b01883424e0ea4312e4afdd735bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb89b01883424e0ea4312e4afdd735bc\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and thank you, Minister. I think we\u2019ve probably seen from experience around the COVID vaccinations that the science and evidence often isn\u2019t enough for communities to be won over, or certain elements of our communities to be won over. So the process of consultation and getting communities on board I think is an incredibly important part of the implementation of this legislation, and I\u2019m not sure that we\u2019ve had spelt out to us how that process is really going to play out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0478c0990444e87bceafe859a732c6e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0478c0990444e87bceafe859a732c6e\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY (National\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I wanted to talk to Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 79, which is in the name of my good friend and colleague Dr Shane Reti, who is actively up in the North of the North Island now, vaccinating, and I want to wish him well. Now, what he says in his SOP is to amend clause 4A: \u201Cafter new section 116E(2)(b), insert: (c) the views of local \u2026 authorities legislated to represent regional health interests where the local authority supply is situated.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EI suppose for us on this side of the House, we believe in having strong communities. They\u2019re a place for local democracy. They\u2019re a place of our local economy and, of course, where our public services are delivered from, and it is quite concerning\u2014and I think my colleague Penny Simmonds alluded to this\u2014the continual ideology of centralisation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EI note that in a bill we\u2019ll debate tomorrow, it says about the health reforms that \u201CGovernment intervention is necessary to address these longstanding issues; indeed, only Government can take the steps needed to reform the structure and operating model of the \u2026 health system.\u201D We would argue that it\u2019s not only Government; it\u2019s actually the communities as well that are needed to reform and restructure, and that\u2019s why I think this is a very good SOP that will require the director-general to consider the views of local health authorities in this region.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EWhat we do need is to still consult people in their local communities. There\u2019s probably a feeling that they\u2019re getting dealt to a bit at the moment, and we\u2019ve seen Groundswell NZ be part of that. I think that\u2019s why it is important, as set out in SOP 79, whether it be the centralisation of our health reforms or, of course, what the Government will announce tomorrow for their three waters announcement, that in an issue like fluoridation of drinking water, we should also ensure that our local communities are consulted about this on whether they agree to this or not. I do hope that the parties tonight will have read Shane Reti\u2019s SOP 79 and that they will support local consultation, because, of course, decisions we make in Wellington affect everyone on the ground around New Zealand, and we should make sure that we provide adequate consultation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5be043ae1304f93b5b25b7428e6371e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5be043ae1304f93b5b25b7428e6371e\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Look, this bill has had an interesting history. It was first introduced into Parliament in 2016, at the tail end of the year, and here we are coming towards the end of 2021. I think I\u2019m right in saying that it managed to spend the entirety of the last Parliament on the Order Paper with no progress\u2014I think I\u2019m right in saying that. So here we are, five years later, and time has kind of caught up with the Government because the bill seeks to transfer power to district health boards and away from territorial authorities, but, contemporaneously, the Government is abolishing district health boards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo I have a very simple question, and I apologise if it\u2019s already been asked by members on this side. It is a very simple question. What happens when this bill is passed and it becomes an Act, and the new Governor-General, Dame Cindy Kiro, gives her Royal assent to the legislation and it comes into force and, then, in a year\u2019s time, district health boards are no longer in existence? What will happen to this Act, or is it the intention of the Government to move an alternative form of legislation? It is a very simple question, and I think people will want to know what the answer is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u0022d75a3f636e56431e9ec5fe3ea8ca1cda\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d75a3f636e56431e9ec5fe3ea8ca1cda\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E The Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 38, which was recently considered by select committee, does indeed make all those changes that the member is requesting because it is a change to move decision making from district health boards to the director-general. Therefore, the bill as amended by the Supplementary Order Paper does not require the continued existence of district health boards in order to give effect to the increase in fluoridation that we want to see. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI want to return to the contribution of the speaker before last around SOP 79. Firstly, as I previously noted, there are local issues that are relevant to fluoridation decisions, and the director-general is required to take this into account: local health factors, the oral health of the population, the feasibility and readiness to start fluoridation, and its cost. But the Supplementary Order Paper goes further than that and asks us\u2014well, actually, it was Mr Doocey\u2019s speech in relation to the Supplementary Order Paper that was prepared by Dr Reti. Mr Doocey said that it\u2019s not just about local government, but about involving community, but it doesn\u2019t appear to me that that\u2019s what Supplementary Order Paper 79 does. It asks for \u201Cthe views of local health authorities legislated to represent \u2026 health interests where the local authority supply is situated.\u201D So it\u2019s a slightly wordy presentation, but I don\u2019t think the intent of it is about community involvement. No, it\u2019s about representatives I\u2019m not even sure exist, and, in fact, the comment that Mr Bishop was making actually applies to Mr Reti\u2019s SOP, not to the Government\u2019s bill or SOP.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003ESo we will not be supporting the Supplementary Order Paper 79 because it\u2019s not entirely clear what it means, and it\u2019s not clear that it will be an advance on the existing Supplementary Order Paper. It\u2019s interesting to note that this bill started its life out as a National Party bill in which there was no requirement for local consultation, and nor is local consultation enabled by the Supplementary Order Paper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u00223b8fee69cbc84584b667294909f94414\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b8fee69cbc84584b667294909f94414\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Minister, if I may: as you\u2019d be acutely aware, I live in Northland and we\u2019ve got some of the worst teeth in the country. Very quickly, and if I contextualise the problem about where I live, a lot of rural New Zealand, especially in Northland, is on rural schemes. Can you speak to, quite specifically\u2014and we\u2019ve canvassed this in the House, and I think it\u2019s going to come up again and again and again. In the Water Services Bill, on this side of the House, we asked for an exemption for 30 end users or less. By virtue of what we\u2019re discussing tonight, there\u2019s a real possibility there will be a penalty regime in place inside that piece of legislation for such things as fluoridation or the absence of it, and I would be interested to know what that will look like, what part of rural New Zealand it will affect, and how this policy would be policed, or the lack thereof.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u0022318fd2261c8d42469908d285e0c598f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022318fd2261c8d42469908d285e0c598f1\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m interested in having the Minister explain to us how there might be consultation and a flow of information up from the communities. She has talked about there not being consultation with the communities, but what if a community should decide they want fluoridation? What is the process and what is the ability for the community to send their message that they want fluoridation in their water?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00224a5d293e0bd9466da7128dfe3e363641\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a5d293e0bd9466da7128dfe3e363641\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022 data-id=\u002277b0bc17ac8649d6a98e12cca4fe968d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277b0bc17ac8649d6a98e12cca4fe968d\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. This time I will have a question for the Minister. Just one of the things that occurs to me\u2014and it\u2019s really interesting, because we\u2019re in a sort of interesting time at the moment\u2014is we\u2019ve got the issue with the COVID vaccine acceptance, and, certainly, remoter parts of New Zealand are more difficult to penetrate with respect to that than perhaps Wellington or Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve also got a bill up later on tonight which deals with statistics, and, of course, people have got to fill out statistics forms. We\u2019ve got in the House, this bill, where there\u2019s an inherent distrust in some people of fluoridation, and you\u2019ve got to wonder whether the real issue we\u2019ve got is that, slowly but surely, people are starting to distrust the Government when the Government makes decisions for them. If I knew the answer to this, I wouldn\u2019t be here, but I think it\u2019s a real challenge for us, because if you don\u2019t fill out your statistics correctly, the Government doesn\u2019t get the information they need to manage the processes we\u2019re talking about here, actually, amongst others. If you don\u2019t get vaccinated, it would appear, then, that other people are at risk, and the same thing applies to this. If we don\u2019t get this fluoridation thing accepted, then we\u2019re going to get to the point where people, effectively, opt out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003ESo I suppose my question for the Minister is\u2014and it might be very difficult one to answer\u2014that I just wonder: it\u2019s all very well to provide health advice to members of the public, but they don\u2019t accept it, necessarily, and, certainly, the more remotely you live in New Zealand, it appears the less likely you are to accept advice from the centre. So I suppose my worry with this\u2014and, as I said, I don\u2019t have the answer\u2014kind of bill is, if we\u2019re going to put these in place, we\u2019ve got to find a way of generally getting acceptance. I accept we won\u2019t get everyone to accept it, but we need to find ways as we manage these processes of getting people to accept that, effectively, these decisions are made for the better of their own health, just like getting vaccinated is, or filling out your statistics correctly is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u0022978a686610814d9bb6b401f9029a38fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022978a686610814d9bb6b401f9029a38fd\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr McKelvie, for that important question. Look, I\u2019m an optimist about the issue of acceptance, and I think one of the things is that 50 percent of our population already live in places with a fluoridated water supply and, day to day, most people think nothing of it, to be honest, and people who visit, for example, Wellington from around the country where they don\u2019t have fluoridated water don\u2019t seem to raise it as a concern when they visit this great city.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI wanted to address the question about what if a community was to decide they want to fluoridate their own water independent of a direction from the Director-General of Health. While there\u2019s nothing in this bill to stop that; that would still be able to occur as it currently has, and, indeed, a number of cities and towns have rolled out fluoridation on that basis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003ETo my colleague from ACT, the questions about supplies in rural New Zealand are very good ones. Firstly, this bill only applies to reticulated water supplies, and it excludes private supplies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also point to one of the requirements for the director-general to consider the cost. Modelling done\u2014an assessment done a few years ago now suggests that the cost-effectiveness of fluoridation gets lower the smaller the population that is served by the water supply. It starts to look to be of lower value at water supplies that serve fewer than 500 people. Now, that isn\u2019t the only factor that the director-general has to consider, but for small water supplies, there may be a discussion about whether or not the costs of fluoridation are, in fact, worth the oral health benefits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u002267e2dc60ef5b42f994948231782309a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267e2dc60ef5b42f994948231782309a6\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Minister, would you be so obliging: when you just made the iteration about a reticulated supply, in the Water Services Act it very specifically talks about a reticulated supply, and more than one family or dwelling off that supply is deemed a system, and, by virtue of that, it is a reticulated supply. So you can see, going back to my previous remarks about having a caveat for 30 end users or less in the Water Services Act, by virtue of what you\u2019ve just said, it would actually encapsulate everyone other than a single dwelling. Do you want to speak to that, perhaps?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u002247912491c8b844deac38d5c4f4807beb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247912491c8b844deac38d5c4f4807beb\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I actually am interested in the answer to the question raised by my colleague Mr Cameron down the back\u2014down the back both in terms of the country but also in the Chamber. But I am also interested in, and I\u2019ve been reading\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f443bbbba01e4895abd0a6e32b96d6dd\u0022\u003EMark Cameron\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m up the top. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294df47179fae4b4e9d97542a17b50c28\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I mean in terms of Northland. I suppose you\u2019re up the front in some ways. Anyway, it\u2019s a long way away from here is the key point. I wasn\u2019t meaning to be pejorative, Mr Cameron\u2014far from it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s been so long since we\u2019ve considered this legislation. As I said earlier in my contribution, it was two parliaments ago, and I for one am a strong believer in fluoridation. I wonder if the ministry or the Government has conducted an updated cost-benefit analysis (CBA). I\u2019m reading the regulatory impact statement, which is from 2016\u2014in fact, March 2016\u2014which notes that there was a CBA done in 2014 by Sapere Research Group, which found that \u201Cextending water fluoridation to those areas that do not currently have fluoridation would be associated with net savings of over $600 million over twenty years\u201D, which is obviously a sizable sum of money, if you think about that. That\u2019s $30 million per year times 20, with most of those savings to consumers and a small amount to Vote Health, and I actually was just reflecting on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI found that interesting, because I thought it would be the other way around. I actually thought the majority of the savings would accrue to Vote Health in terms of better oral health outcomes for the kids, for example\u2014so less demand on the public purse for childhood dental services\u2014and, I suppose, also adults as well. Having just had a wisdom tooth extracted last week and endured the pain of that, mainly fiscally, I know that dentistry can be very expensive, and so I was surprised to see that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a79cd0bb099c42bbb44edd035f601b98\u0022\u003EIan McKelvie\u003C/span\u003E: Fluoride wouldn\u2019t have fixed it, though.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe09d8541f1e4a11adbe4482b488f60c\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s that\u2014fluoride wouldn\u2019t have fixed it, no. There\u2019s too much sugar in my diet. But I was intrigued to see that the cost-benefit actually shows that the majority of benefit is for consumers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo I just wonder if there\u2019s been an updated cost-benefit since 2014. It\u2019s now seven years on, and perhaps the Minister could advise the House if that\u2019s the case. If it\u2019s higher than that then that\u2019s a wonderful thing, and if it\u2019s lower than that, then, well, that\u2019s interesting as well, I suppose. Thank you, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u002225b2ec04c348489da85669b1ad4b382e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225b2ec04c348489da85669b1ad4b382e\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for that question. It\u2019s always good to be able to talk more about the financial benefits of public health measures. The answer is no. That cost-benefit analysis has not been revisited. That cost-benefit analysis was part of what kicked off this bill in the first place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EBut I think the member is correct to think that if there was any change, the change is likely to be in the increasing cost of dental services over that time, so I can only imagine more benefits would accrue to the community than was originally expected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002284bbef8e3d214e7c9ba3174fb860e79a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284bbef8e3d214e7c9ba3174fb860e79a\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u00223db75d5146dd4a1f98c4af4140555fc2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223db75d5146dd4a1f98c4af4140555fc2\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I am interested also in taking the questioning of my ACT colleague Mark Cameron a little further. When the Minister replied that the fluoridation was only for reticulated supplies and not private supplies, and indeed the Water Services Act has the \u201Clast person standing\u201D clause in it that requires that if a water supply is going to be abandoned by private suppliers, then, in fact, the local authority does have to take up the provision of that supply. So it may well be that the rural water supplies that my colleague was referring to might fall within this, having been taken over by a local authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EI guess one of the concerns that we have is that it\u2019s a bill with very good intent: we all want, particularly for our children, to have better oral health, and what we don\u2019t want is for it to be put at risk by a lack of plan or a lack of education or a lack of information or a lack of consultation. Therefore, my questioning really is around that provision of ensuring that the notion of fluoridation in drinking water\u2014that is not now in at the moment\u2014is well sold to the public and that the good intent of the bill isn\u2019t lost by it not being well sold and people being well-prepared for it. So if you could expand on what is being done there, thank you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u002242fcd6b7110f4a5da9d9c03d9c56f4dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242fcd6b7110f4a5da9d9c03d9c56f4dd\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Clearly, permission to start on implementation on the bill will be given when Parliament passes the bill. But I am comfortable undertaking to that member that being able to communicate clearly to the country the benefits of fluoridation and why these decisions are made will be ongoing work for the Ministry of Health. In addition, I\u2019ve already cited the Prime Minister\u2019s Chief Science Advisor\u2019s report, which is a definitive piece of work that reflects several decades of scientific research on this matter. So I don\u2019t believe that there\u2019s any lack of activity on the Government\u2019s part in terms of making sure that the basis for these decisions are clear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022d28cf7096b2747c8aceac2a621578e19\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d28cf7096b2747c8aceac2a621578e19\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc700aeb55fd439bb34c0a2202ea3dad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc700aeb55fd439bb34c0a2202ea3dad\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Anyone else want a call\u2014no? We\u2019ll go to the question, eh? The question is that the Hon Ayesha Verrall\u2019s amendment to the amendments on Supplementary Order Paper 38 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 76 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd5cc8c5467b49d7a01e56dc21b9be6d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd5cc8c5467b49d7a01e56dc21b9be6d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Shane Reti\u2019s amendment to clause 4A in Supplementary Order Paper 38 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 79 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222230ea4cee1448a0a3edaf47e5a26205\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022640c56780789463ea06c29559acc1838\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022640c56780789463ea06c29559acc1838\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 38 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EAmendments as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002224b48079a4754a9eb72b7138fd989ab3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224b48079a4754a9eb72b7138fd989ab3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Part 1 and 2, the Schedule, and clauses 1 to 3 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EPart 1 and 2, Schedule, and clauses 1 to 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222489081145d143d8b2c8e9705e866740\u0022\u003EReport of Committee of the Whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022528f8bd00e2d486ea4361ec495ee829e\u0022\u003EReport of Committee of the Whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002270fa93dfdbcd4b2aada02446f2b9d51b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270fa93dfdbcd4b2aada02446f2b9d51b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Mental Health (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Amendment Bill and reports it with amendment. The committee has also considered the Films, Videos, and Publications Classification (Urgent Interim Classification of Publications and Prevention of Online Harm) Amendment Bill and reports it with amendment. The committee has also considered the Maritime Transport (MARPOL Annex VI) Amendment Bill and reports it without amendment. The committee has also considered the Health (Fluoridation of Drinking Water) Amendment Bill and reports it with amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226d446f0b6182440c801cb9352ba1a037\u0022\u003ERetail Payment System Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002278005334b42c43b496fa777f91a04a75\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u00227cbcc01747224507ab8b1313b6567cc4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227cbcc01747224507ab8b1313b6567cc4\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Retail Payment System Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263058cad9c824ef0a72153ea950308fb\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022174a17173ba441b19a018e36800ef025\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Retail Payment System Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee to consider the bill. At the appropriate time, I intend to move that the bill be reported to the House by 3 March 2022. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe Retail Payment System Bill introduces a new regime to ensure that the retail payment system\u2014that is, the way we pay for goods and services\u2014delivers long-term benefits to consumers and to small businesses or merchants. It does this in three ways. Firstly, it enables the Commerce Commission to regulate participants in designated retail payment networks. Secondly, to reduce merchant service fees sooner rather than later, it sets an initial pricing standard for the MasterCard and Visa credit and debit networks, and that standard targets interchange fees, which are the larger part of merchant service fees, making it less costly for retailers when accepting payments. Thirdly, it enables the Commerce Commission to issue merchant surcharging standards to limit excessive surcharging, and the bill enables the commission to monitor, investigate, and enforce the rules. This bill fulfils a Government commitment\u2014indeed, a Labour manifesto promise\u2014to regulate merchant service fees charged to retailers and bring them in line with the other comparable economies that we look to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ECOVID-19 has changed the way we spend our money. We spend more and more time online transacting, with contactless transactions as well. There is growing pressure for all retailers, including the local dairy, to accept the available technologies, but they do come with an added cost. Reducing these fees is a priority for this Government and is critical to the recovery of the economy from the impacts of COVID-19. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESo in December 2020, I began looking at the merchant service fees regime and the broader retail payment system, and the findings of the research generated by officials as we looked broadly showed that the system could indeed benefit from regulation. The first finding was that the costs merchants are charged to accept some payments are indeed high. Evidence shows that in many respects, some of our payments are parallel to what happens in Australia, but they\u2019re actually about twice as high for credit card payments and for online debit transactions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe second finding was that there are barriers to competition in the current regime. Retailers want to accept payment types that are widely used by consumers and vice versa, and that means a few large banks and card schemes dominate the retail payment system, making it difficult for new entrants to offer fresh payment options. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EA third finding was that merchant service fee pricing has particularly adverse impacts on small businesses. In part, this is due to their smaller scale and their limited ability to negotiate good terms, but also they\u2019re at greater risk of losing customers if they decide to surcharge or to steer customers away from certain payment methods. For many small businesses, they are simply forced to accept payment methods and then absorb the costs. It\u2019s a cost of doing business for them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ELastly, consumers like to use higher-cost payment methods. Indeed, we know credit card loyalty schemes are popular. They earn rewards for those that can participate in them, and banks encourage this because they in turn get higher returns as well. But that creates an equity issue, because someone has to pay for those rewards. Every consumer gets charged the same price for an item, typically in a store, but some get rewards back, and that tends to be the wealthy, who can afford and are offered those higher reward schemes. So, effectively, that amounts to a transfer of wealth from poorer folk to wealthier folk as a part of those loyalty schemes. So the Retail Payment System Bill helps to alleviate some of these pressures consumers and small businesses are facing as a consequence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like now to go into further detail about the proposed regulation of designated payment networks. The bill allows the Commerce Commission to make recommendations to the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs as to which retail payment networks should be designated. The Minister then, of course, makes a decision, and it futureproofs the regime by allowing it to respond to any changes in the system that come up along the way, such as new payment methods that may emerge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EOnce a network has been designated and a Minister has accepted that advice and designated a network, the commission will have a broad set of tools to regulate aspects of the network. For example, the bill seeks to address the lack of competition by enabling the commission to issue access standards. They could require established participants to open up access to parts of the network to make it easier for new entrants to use crucial infrastructure as a part of the payment system. The commission could also issue directions to network operators to set or amend network rules, and the bill enables the commission to monitor the retail payment system and impose information disclosure requirements, if it wishes. It can also improve the transparency of fees through describing how fees may be presented, and that will all make it easier for small businesses to compare the different offerings in the market, the different merchant service fees they might be charged for using this network system or that system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EIn addition, the bill directly addresses the problem of high merchant service fees by enabling the commission to regulate pricing through network standards. Now, the network standards could cover pricing principles and limits on fees, as well as pricing methodologies and how prices are expressed. Small businesses then will have greater transparency, greater clarity, about how the different systems compare and, as I\u2019ve said, they can choose to use the ones that suit them best, and that will put overall downward pressure on fees that are charged to merchants. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe second key aspect of the bill is that MasterCard and Visa credit and debit card networks have been designated off the bat for an initial pricing standard. Now, that makes sure that we get to one of the challenging issues that\u2019s in the system straight off the bat, and we\u2019re doing that by regulating the interchange fees that they can charge, which are a big part of merchant service fees. So that will be something that, immediately it comes into effect, people will see the change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThere are also some anti-avoidance provisions that are coming into play. So this is to avoid something known overseas as the waterbed effect, where you regulate one part of the merchant service fee, like the interchange fee, and see fees for other parts of the merchant service fee go up to compensate the issuers. So we\u2019re alive to that, and that standard is there to ensure that that waterbed effect doesn\u2019t happen here in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EI want to see merchants benefit from lower fees as soon as possible, and I want to see them pass on those savings to consumers in New Zealand. Both small businesses and consumers will be better off as a result of these changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ENow, the initial measures target card products issued by MasterCard and Visa because they cover the lion\u2019s share of the market for retail payments. With the other schemes present in the market, some of them don\u2019t have interchange fees\u2014they have different models\u2014but we think that this will make a significant difference. That initial pricing standard will commence six months after the initial enactment of this bill, and that allows regulated parties sufficient time to ensure that they do comply with the new standards. Those standards are meant to be an initial and interim measure while the Commerce Commission gets up and running, and then it will be able to adjust\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ef4fb120daa46a894a08fdff09e77d4\u0022\u003EHon Todd McClay\u003C/span\u003E: What do you mean if it gets up and running? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223497f1f02fe1448e9bd09a3fcc2a65fb\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the pricing standards as needed\u2014in this particular regime, sir. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThere are, finally, limits on merchants\u2019 surcharging that I\u2019d like to mention. Sometimes, retailers use surcharges to recover the costs of merchant service fees, but where they charge more than the actual cost, that can cause a harm to consumers. So if the true costs are not being passed on, the commission can issue standards to ensure that surcharging is not excessive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f061f9e22fe04d43b155377541a192a3\u0022\u003EHon Todd McClay\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s not a problem that a good standard won\u2019t fix. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240d301435d8744ef88e822750747f1c8\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Those standards could include information disclosure and record-keeping requirements, and may also set out how merchants must represent surcharges. That\u2019s a very similar approach to that taken in Australia, and I\u2019m sure Mr McClay will have something to say about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ETo conclude, retail payments are central to the economy. Consumers continue to demand that more innovative payment methods are available to them, but we know that the fees being charged are indeed too high. This bill ensures that consumers are supported. As we\u2019re in difficult COVID times, consumers are supported, small businesses will be supported, and they will help with the economic recovery. It\u2019s an important step in the right direction to ensure that our retail payment system delivers long-term benefits to consumers and businesses in New Zealand. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00224a1e6d9f1473470995eb0998550d3679\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a1e6d9f1473470995eb0998550d3679\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u0022228bfb3de8304f5d9dcb10c422cc5903\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022228bfb3de8304f5d9dcb10c422cc5903\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (National\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Consumers around New Zealand had such high hopes for David Clark as the consumer and commerce Minister. Nine and a bit years ago, when he made his speeches down in Dunedin to be selected for the Labour Party to come here, I\u2019m sure he started his speech by saying, \u201CThe reason I want to go to Parliament is to set some standards.\u201D because that\u2019s all we heard there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003ELook, we will be supporting this because it is a very small step in the right direction, but when it comes to steps in the right direction, this is one of the tiniest ones this Government and this Minister might have made. He introduced this piece of legislation as a proud father of a tiny little bill of significance, he said, but of great insignificance to retailers and consumers in New Zealand. You see, during the campaign last year when Labour announced this, the day after or the day before they said, \u201CThere\u2019s $2.8 billion worth of costs we\u2019re going to impose upon business in New Zealand if we\u2019re re-elected. But don\u2019t worry, we\u2019re going to fix these tiny little fees that merchants have to pay and that will fix it.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EYou see, Minister Clark just said that actually the fees that merchants pay when it comes to credit card transaction in New Zealand compared to Australia are higher. What he didn\u2019t tell the consumer was rents are higher in New Zealand than Australia. House prices are higher in New Zealand than Australia. Food prices are higher in New Zealand than Australia. Petrol is higher here, transport costs are higher, cars cost more, hotels costs more, electricity costs more, doctors visits cost more, medicine costs more\u2014but don\u2019t worry, we\u2019re going to set a standard for the amount that Skycity can charge you as a result of the card that you may use when you get there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003ESo it will level the playing field to some degree for smaller merchants compared to larger merchants but what we also heard from Minister Clark was that envy of people who had done well. He\u2019s saying rich people benefit because poorer people end up paying those same fees when it comes to the use of the cards and some fanciful rewards scheme. So he\u2019s going to set a standard to perhaps deal with that but actually nothing in as far as consumers are concerned when it comes to rents, houses, petrol, electricity\u2014all the other things that mean the cost of living in New Zealand has gone up so very, very much that people are struggling and that we have such a thing as the working poor. What that means is people having to choose to pay their bills before they feed their kids often because, under this Government, actually prices have run away. But don\u2019t worry. The solution is at heart. We\u2019re going to jump on board and beat up on a couple of credit card companies that charge a small percentage on a transaction because that is a solution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003ENow, there is no question that actually where there is a charge, it should be fair, it should be equitable. I do notice in some of the submissions that have already been received in the one year the Minister has been considering this legislation to fix it for consumers that actually the transaction costs by two of the credit card companies he mentioned, at least on their network, Visa and Mastercard, have fallen by almost 18 percent. That suggests to me something\u2019s happening in the market, probably around competition\u2014could be a number of other things. But, in effect, there are so many other things that this Government should be doing to help consumers than this very, very small piece of legislation that the Minister spent 10 minutes talking about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EYou see, Kiwis were doing it very hard, long before the effects of COVID, long before the now 270 days that New Zealand has been in some form of restriction imposed by this Government. You see, in Auckland there\u2019s not very many small businesses that are sitting there losing sleep because of the cost of the transactions that they have to consider if ever the Government finds a way to allow them to get back to business. Most businesses in New Zealand are struggling; they are not trading at the moment\u2014in Auckland, sorry, you\u2019re not trading at the moment. They need all sorts of other consideration from the Government than this piece of legislation, a small-time fix for the retail payment system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EI hope that the Government will allow the full period of time for this piece of legislation, this bill, to be before the committee, because it was announced more than a year and a half ago and it has taken the Minister almost a year from when he thought to get around to doing something to bring legislation before the House, and all of a sudden we have a sense that he might rush it through because this is the big fix. I think it is very important that we hear from all of those who are engaged in the sector: the banks themselves who run the system, the credit card companies that actually do have costs upon them\u2014and they want to find ways to minimise these so that people can enjoy different ways of paying for the goods and services they may consume. But to leave it to the Government by way of setting standards, I don\u2019t think is the very best way. So the committee will need to take a full period of time to allow proper submissions and full consideration of this unless the Minister is saying that this is so urgent to fix the ailments the businesses suffer as a result of the $2.8 billion of costs annually this Government has imposed upon them through extra regulation, extra cost, and the effects of the extended long-term lockdown that Auckland businesses are facing but almost every business in New Zealand is suffering from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThis is a very small piece of legislation. If it goes a small way to levelling the playing field and assisting small businesses with some of their costs, we\u2019ll take the time in the committee to consider it, we\u2019ll work through it. But very, very clearly when it comes to commerce and consumer affairs, I hope the tin is not empty. I hope Minister Clark has more to bring to the House. I hope that there is a step change\u2014a step change that will shake these things up and make everything work all of the time. I\u2019m sure that actually he didn\u2019t start his speech when he went for selection in Dunedin almost 11 years ago with \u201CSend me to Parliament. I want to set some standards when it comes to retail payment systems in New Zealand.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed48c461e9b84a48bee9c40acffeebe9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed48c461e9b84a48bee9c40acffeebe9\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Speaker. Thank you for allowing me to move beyond our previous speaker. The previous speaker did mention something several times around this tiny piece of legislation. He mentioned only several million dollars of money that was going on on this side of the House, but I did look it up: this is going to save merchants $74 million a year. We know where that goes. It gets passed on, right? Seventy-four million gets passed on. So I\u2019m really proud to be standing and supporting this piece of legislation this evening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI look at the different systems around credit cards and fees, and, to be honest, you know, there\u2019s early adopters, there\u2019s the early and late majority, and there\u2019s the laggards. For many things I\u2019m a bit of a laggard, to be honest, but for many things I\u2019m an early adopter when it comes to social change, when it comes to technology and systems. I do remember particularly payWave when it was introduced, and thought \u201CWhat a ridiculous, stupid, weird idea. It\u2019s fast enough doing your four digits and pressing your buttons\u2014that type of thing.\u201D But now I can\u2019t do without payWave. It\u2019s just something we use all the time. It\u2019s been great that we have ensured that we froze payWave fees at this time, obviously, in a global pandemic, to ensure the safety of our people. But this piece of legislation is ensuring that we get it right when it comes to merchant fees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ENow, I won\u2019t go into too much detail, but many years ago I actually owned a coffee cart. I was a small-business owner myself, and so I know the challenges when it comes to what types of cards, because of the fees that I had to pay and that I wasn\u2019t able to provide for my customers, because I had a very small but effective business. So I\u2019m really glad to be supporting this legislation. As a member of the select committee, of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee, I look forward to hearing submissions on this and to supporting this piece of legislation through to the next stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00226fa594f468a54b8680301405ccb2aed7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226fa594f468a54b8680301405ccb2aed7\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I\u2019m standing here to talk on the Retail Payment System Bill, first reading. Wow, I\u2019m just sitting, looking at the Minister, and saying: is this as good as it gets? Obviously we want to see fees reduced over time, but, gee, we\u2019re going to take up\u2014what\u2014an hour and a half. What\u2019s that worth in terms of time spent in Parliament? What\u2019s that worth? About a million bucks\u2014a million bucks? And so no doubt the select committee is going to have a great deal of time looking at this and considering it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ELook, there\u2019s no doubt that we want to see fees reduced as much as possible. But as my colleague the Hon Todd McClay said, in the scheme of events this is pretty small beer. I can understand why Retail New Zealand, Hospitality New Zealand, and the Restaurant Association all wanted to support it. It\u2019s fine; it will do some good. But it\u2019s not going to be a game-changer, unfortunately, particularly right now, when you\u2019ve got those industries\u2014retail, hospitality, accommodation, events sector\u2014who are just crying out for support, and we\u2019re putting up a bill like this tonight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EWhy, on Friday, didn\u2019t Mr Grant Robertson actually do something meaningful for them? He did nothing in his thing, because nothing will help them more than actually helping them with things like insurance schemes for the event sector, allowing retail operations to actually operate, and allowing people to come in and buy stuff from their shops, or, in fact, for the restaurant people to actually work in the streets, actually have places out on the street so they can entertain people and get some money coming in. Instead, what we\u2019ve got is a bill like this tonight. This is not that important, Dr Clark. What we should be talking about is what is really important\u2014those thousands of businesses, particularly in Auckland, and the Waikato now, who are just going to die over the next three weeks until they finally can apply for their next increased resurgence payment, which has been delayed for three weeks before they can even apply for it. That is the difference between this bill and what the Government really should be focused on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s just interesting how much time that the committee will spend debating a thing like this. Look, just get it through the House. Everyone agrees with that. It doesn\u2019t need a lot of time. As a Government, Labour should be focusing on the big stuff. And I think you\u2019re missing the big stuff when it comes to a bill like this, because right now, in the next three weeks, thousands more of those retail, hospitality, accommodation, events people who will use these types of payments will fail\u2014will fail\u2014and as a result, they\u2019ll lose all their life savings. And, worse than that, the people that they employ will end up on the job seeker benefit and they will stay there, as we\u2019ve got, and we\u2019ve seen since the first lockdown, 56,000 who have joined the job seeker unemployment benefit since the first lockdown in March last year and are still on the job seeker benefit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo, of course we support this, but this is not that important in the scheme of stuff. What the Government should be talking about is some real stuff to stop these people losing their jobs, their livelihoods, and all the other stuff that\u2019s really creating carnage in places like the Auckland and Waikato regions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022 data-id=\u0022d92e8e3b3d9147e790bab2bc75e70cb6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d92e8e3b3d9147e790bab2bc75e70cb6\u0022\u003EANNA LORCK (Labour\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak, but I must say that on the other side of the House the volume seems to have been getting louder. There is a microphone there. We can hear you. The emotion that is coming from the other side of the House is just unbelievable\u2014he might need a bit of Berocca!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003EAnyway, back to the bill\u2014back to the bill. This bill is actually a very, very practical bill; a practical bill that is going to have an immediate impact on the shoppers, the people, the customers, saving money\u2014$74 million. Apparently that is not even worth it on the other side of the House. This side of the House believes that every dollar is a dollar well spent. It goes round and round into the economy. That\u2019s what is important and that is why this legislation is so critical for just keeping things going for small businesses as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003EHow many of us have gone into a shop and gone to use the card, and the business owner says, \u201COh no, we don\u2019t have payWave, because they\u2019re charging us too much.\u201D? Those little transactions, those quick things, and in a COVID world where we want to make sure that we have every safety mechanism possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003EThe other thing I would like to say is businesses are resilient. I\u2019ve been a small-business owner. In fact, I might be one of the only small-business owners that are in the House speaking tonight. I can tell you that I know what it is like\u201420 years in small business. People are innovative. We work through things like this. That is what makes small business the big part of the economy that will keep going strong and we\u2019ll keep going for it. That is why I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022b432ab858d884d2b82a704299e9139ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b432ab858d884d2b82a704299e9139ab\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Speaker. I just wanted to acknowledge the verbal Berocca that we got over there from that corner of the House. I won\u2019t need my credit card for that one, but I believe that will keep me going for the rest of the night.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EThis bill will create a regulatory system for merchant fees for debit and credit networks, payWave and other similar service fees, which are increasingly used more than EFTPOS, and this delivers on a Government commitment made in 2020. So, good on them. We will be supporting this bill, because we know that credit card transactions are the main method of retail payment in Aotearoa New Zealand and are routed through either the \u201Cswitch to issuer\u201D or the \u201Cswitch to acquire\u201D systems, and so ensuring those technologies and systems work for everyday people is critical.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EWe heard about the carnage\u2014they used the word \u201Ccarnage\u201D in the corner there as well. It\u2019s so good to hear that passion about merchant service fees. I would like to see that passion sometime around climate change or the COVID crisis and all those other sorts of crises in front of us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EThe Greens support reducing compliance costs for businesses. We know\u2014and I\u2019m taking this from the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) March 2021 regulatory impact statement\u2014that our payment systems are not fully working for consumers and merchants. Merchants end up paying a disproportionate cost of retail payment systems, which end up being passed on to the consumers, and for too long, we\u2019ve relied on voluntary industry initiatives to address these issues, without meaningful outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EJust going back briefly on the issue of costs of merchant service fees being passed on to consumers through the price of goods and services, we know this disadvantages low-income people while only occasionally benefiting high-income earners. Some of the retail payment cost that is passed on to consumers is used to fund rewards and other inducements for using credit cards. MBIE estimates merchants have to increase their prices to all consumers by around $187 million per year to fund rewards paid to certain credit card users. Due to the way credit card rewards schemes are structured, this leads us to an annual regressive cross-subsidy of $59 million from low-income to high-income households. This is effectively a trickle-up scheme, where some of our lowest-income people are subsidising a system that only works for those with the means to reap its rewards. That\u2019s why we are supportive of this bill, the Government\u2019s intent to create a regulatory system for merchant service fees for debit and credit networks. On that, we support this bill. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022 data-id=\u00228aef9e20c06544a6bfcc6a9e655c77c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228aef9e20c06544a6bfcc6a9e655c77c7\u0022\u003ECHRIS BAILLIE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of ACT to speak to the Retail Payment System Bill. ACT opposes this bill for a number of reasons, but mainly because ACT believes in free markets and the less Government has to do with things, the better outcome for all. Having a Minister put his two cents in\u2014or her two cents in\u2014often creates more problems, even if it might look good on paper. I suppose the Government can espouse how much they care about and understand small businesses, but the unintended consequences in this bill must be considered, because Government intervention in private transactions over time will eventually hurt the very people it purports to help.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EThis bill will reduce competition in the sector. Why bother coming up with new innovations, new technology if you\u2019re going to be told how to use it? Why would new providers want to enter the market knowing that there will be a Minister making sure they\u2019re not too successful? A sector that\u2019s constantly changing needs investment, not restrictive regulations. Submissions in the select committee from ANZ, Business New Zealand, Visa, and Westpac said that the Government should not intervene by way of regulation. They noted that market forces have been and continue to drive competition, and if the profits available within the payment system can be reduced by regulation, their ability to develop new services that will benefit merchants and consumers will be adversely impacted. This sort of tinkering and interfering with the way business is run as unhelpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003ESeveral years ago, I met with my business banking manager to discuss merchant fees, among other things. After some negotiation\u2014and I mentioned other banks in the process, during that negotiation\u2014the fees were reduced to what I thought was fair. Negotiation with providers already happens. Businesses don\u2019t need someone to hold their hand to make sure they run their business the way the Government thinks they should, to be told what surcharge they can charge if they choose to charge one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EOver the last two years, providers have cut merchants fees for a period of time to reflect the COVID-19 impact. It shows that there is already competition in the system. Small businesses are going through a hard time\u2014in fact, they have been for the last four years, and it\u2019s great that the Government are trying to help. Taking control isn\u2019t helping. It just seems like the Ministers want control of everything. We\u2019ve seen many examples of that over the last year, and there\u2019s a name for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s estimated that a 20 percent reduction of credit card interchange and a 30 percent reduction in online fees would equate to savings, for consumers, of merchants\u2019 fees of about $74 million. There are 550,000 businesses in New Zealand. Divided up, it amounts to about $130 each. Businesses are doing it tough during this pandemic. They\u2019ve continually been hit with more costs by this Government. We\u2019ve had two minimum wage rises with no expectation of increased productivity and at a huge cost to businesses. The first rise was two weeks into the pandemic, when businesses were forced to close their doors. We\u2019ve had a new public holiday, which will cost businesses between $377 million and $444 million. There\u2019s been the doubling of sick leave provisions, which will cost businesses almost $2 billion. Seventy-four million dollars isn\u2019t to be sneezed at, but pales into insignificance when we compare it with the extra expenses that have been thrust upon businesses by this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EThe Government will trumpet about how they care about small businesses while business owners roll their eyes. It\u2019s incredibly frustrating, but it\u2019s quite understandable when we have a Minister of Finance who daily blows his own trumpet and tries to convince the public that the COVID wage subsidy is an example of looking after businesses. The wage subsidy looks after workers, and rightly so, but costs the business money. The business has to administer it, pay holiday pay, and it costs them money, otherwise staff would be on a benefit. I\u2019m sure tomorrow he\u2019ll tell the New Zealand public how the wage subsidy helps business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EThis is unnecessary legislation, Government getting involved when there\u2019s absolutely no need. There are many other ways this Government can help business\u2014just by not hurting them any more would be a good start. ACT opposes this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u002242513ceb7ba34259bc8002688b86ca17\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242513ceb7ba34259bc8002688b86ca17\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY (Labour\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m intrigued\u2014I\u2019m intrigued by the contributions of that last speaker, Chris Baillie, and I\u2019m intrigued by the contributions of the National Party. You would have thought by listening to Andrew Bayly that they oppose this bill, but, in fact, they agree with it. And you would think, from the party that\u2019s supposedly anti-regulation, apart from when, of course, that impacts on those living in Epsom\u2014they don\u2019t want to see regulation on their flash neighbourhoods\u2014that they would support this too. Well, we\u2019ve just heard a contribution saying how we need to support small business. Well, this bill does exactly that, because what we found is that merchant fees are a disproportionate cost, particularly on small business where they don\u2019t often have an alternative way to accept transactions. And this fee, this regulation, that they may hate, actually will help the people that they stand and advocate for, because it is without regulation\u2014the supposed free market\u2014that is imposing costs on small business. And I note that Chris Baillie has nothing to say. He had a lot to say in support of small business. And I think it might grate him\u2014it might grate him to know that perhaps his business and the businesses of those that support his party will benefit from this bill. It makes absolute sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThere is no rationale to allow high, unjustified costs on merchant transactions, particularly in the COVID era when many businesses who want to do the right thing\u2014in terms of a public health response, they are limiting or restricting cash transactions\u2014get stung by this because there is no alternative. This Government is acting on it. We campaigned on it. And I can say with the utmost sincerity and honesty that when this policy was announced, I was contacted by local business owners in Wairarapa who said, \u201CGood on you. This will make a big difference for us.\u201D Small business: this Government is delivering on it. We are being consistent in our support for small business. And Chris Baillie may laugh, but he wants to support small businesses. The wage subsidy has supported small businesses, the Government continues to support small businesses, and this bill will do exactly that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022258faa666fb44fed8c6e5086b658dc42\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022258faa666fb44fed8c6e5086b658dc42\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s really interesting listening to Government members talking about business, because nothing is more obvious than, actually, they know very little about business. They don\u2019t understand the basic way businesses work, the way capital works. They don\u2019t understand how customers are motivated. They don\u2019t understand supply. They don\u2019t understand business. This has been a failing of socialist Labour Governments in New Zealand and around the world for years and years and years, and this Labour Government, this socialist Labour Government, is absolutely no different.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EBut on this bill, we will support this piece of legislation, not because it is a piece of Labour Party ideology but because, actually, there is a time when, occasionally, small regulation is required, and this is one of them. But Labour\u2019s great plan is actually to regulate business at every opportunity, to issue proclamations from the Beehive about every aspect of individuals\u2019 personal lives\u2014how they live their life, how they spend their money\u2014and particularly when it comes to business. This is a Government that just loves to tell people and businesses how to operate their business. They like the grand gesture, but my colleague Andrew Bayly so clearly and loudly articulated to the Chamber earlier this evening that, actually, this is only a very, very small step, a very modest step, by a Labour Government that usually likes to impose far bigger restrictions and costs on businesses and regulate in a far grander way than just this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EIf this is the only way that they were deciding to impose regulation upon business, well, then maybe it wouldn\u2019t be such a bad thing, but over the last few years businesses have had to endure enormous extra cost foisted upon them by this Government for very little reason other than ideological ideals that are more from the textbook in academia than they are from the practical commercial or business world. Those extra costs have added nothing\u2014zero, zip, nada, nothing\u2014to the productivity of New Zealand businesses and actually have done exactly the reverse, and the statistics are very stark.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo when this bill goes to select committee, the select committee will need to be cognisant of the fact that pre-Delta something like 12,000 New Zealand businesses have ceased to trade\u2014and that was pre-Delta. Goodness knows what the number is now, after what someone has just reminded me is the 70th consecutive day that Auckland has been lockdown. There will be literally thousands of businesses\u2014many of them small businesses\u2014where people have put in their capital, they\u2019ve mortgaged their home, and they\u2019ve put their entire life savings into that business, and then, through no fault of their own, a Government that is cruel and heartless has seen fit to provide extra cost on variety of parts of their business: an extra week\u2019s sick leave, rapid increases to the minimum wage, an extra public holiday, and a whole range of other things\u2014and fair pay agreements are coming very shortly. All these extra costs that businesses have to absorb, and without any increase in productivity, are simply something that they either pass on to their customers or try and reduce, and often\u2014too often\u2014the way they reduce costs is actually by reducing the labour component in their business, and that means putting people off. So 12,000 businesses ceased to trade in the last year before Delta; goodness only knows what it is after Delta, after 70 days of lockdown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EOne thing that COVID has taught us is that cashless forms of payment have become more common, and there\u2019s actually nothing wrong with that. There will be many, many small businesses who have had to absorb the cost of the fees that are associated with cashless payments, and this is a bill that\u2019s designed to at least create an even playing field. But we should never forget that we are a very small market place, and when we regulate even in a light-handed way, it has consequences. We are a small market place, something smaller than the size of metropolitan Sydney, which we should never forget, and we are a nation of small businesses. There are always going to be winners and losers when consequential regulatory reform of this sort takes place, and someone will pay, and, ultimately, it will be customers. Someone will pay, because those costs don\u2019t disappear; they just get moved around and shifted somewhere else within our economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo, look, we\u2019ll support the bill. We\u2019ll have a look at it at select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022b5eb44d487a04a28a63345e7fd906f1d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b5eb44d487a04a28a63345e7fd906f1d\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4ad7199ff464fa9a1b126665a40fd82\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4ad7199ff464fa9a1b126665a40fd82\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to take a short call on the Retail Payment System Bill. I just want to make the point that\u2014because members opposite have been claiming that this somehow is regulating small business\u2014this isn\u2019t a bill that regulates small business; it is a bill that regulates the merchant service fees charged by banks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EJust in the short amount of time I had to do some research on this bill, I just want to note that a KPMG report from June this year showed that, in the March quarter, banks made an increased profit of 20 percent on the previous December quarter. Banks are the ones who are charging these fees, and they are making billions of profits at the expense of small businesses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve visited a number of small businesses in my electorate, and often, if I go to pay and they don\u2019t have payWave, they\u2019re incredibly apologetic and they say to me, \u201CI really would like to have payWave. I\u2019d really like to be able to use it, but I can\u2019t afford it, because the fees that are charged to me are just far too high. They stop me from being able to offer the technology that, I know, customers like.\u201D, and also the Government wishes for them to use it in order to protect customers from touching buttons, and the like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo, look, this is an excellent bill. It is disappointing to hear pot-shots about it being regulatory against small business\u2014it is not. I note it has gone very quiet on the other side there. This is a bill designed to support small businesses\u2014our cafes, our restaurants, our accommodation providers, and our retail sector\u2014so that they can offer a technology that is safer for customers and safer for their staff, so that they are not continuing to be stung by outrageous fees that make that technology unavailable. So, on that note, it is a pleasure to take a call and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00226656281cfeb5417f905152ccbd233a6a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226656281cfeb5417f905152ccbd233a6a\u0022\u003EGREG O\u2019CONNOR (Labour\u2014\u014Ch\u0101riu):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s often said that the less you believe what you\u2019re saying, the louder you say it, and, certainly, some of the speeches we have heard from the opposite side of the House would be an indicator of that. But I say good on them, because when you are confronted with a very good piece of legislation like this, there\u2019s really nowhere else to go but to actually support it. And so support it the Opposition generally have done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EAnyone who goes around their electorate over the next few days and explains what\u2019s happening here to their local dairy owner, to any other small retailer, will get nothing but praise for this. Because you\u2019ve only got to have a look at some of the figures we\u2019re talking about here: average of 1.6 percent per transaction when it\u2019s done with a credit card, 1.2 percent with a debit card. Often, we\u2019re told here that we should be doing it more like the Aussies, more like the English. Well, perhaps, in this case, we could, because in England it\u2019s a 0.2 percent fee on average; in Australia, 0.6. This piece of legislation is designed to bring us in line with those two countries, certainly, and most others, because our retailers, and, as a consequence, our purchasers, are paying far more than they need to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESome of my colleagues have already spoken about the profits being made by banks. This will come off their bottom line, not off the bottom line of those small to medium businesses and not off the bottom line of consumers. Therefore, it is a very good piece of legislation, which this whole House should support. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u00222ffa562669f44ae08aed76bf94558a5e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ffa562669f44ae08aed76bf94558a5e\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker, and the whole House does support this bill. Despite a few ribbings and rebukes, I can say that Mr McClay thought that Dr David Clark was campaigning on lowering merchant service fees in his candidate speech 11 years ago. I can tell the members that it wasn\u2019t that but eliminating poverty. He\u2019s having a damn sight better go at eliminating merchant service fees than he is about eliminating poverty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI\u2019m just going to take a\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7ca4b827ce24417b109324f47098ad4\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Poverty of ideas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efcde40d228f4e77bf79b4987b974e9a\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s exactly right, Mr Bridges. I\u2019m going to take a bit of a walk down memory lane, because my first job after school was actually in retail banking. I was in the National Bank in Dunedin North branch at a time of cheque writing and zip-zaps. That was the way we transacted business, and a couple of our\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d89398fd1f2b48f3a6a2303a495b8a95\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: And look at him now!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229deae7c968334dd5939d37708e524f41\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014clients\u2014thank you, Mr Bridges\u2014were student pubs in Dunedin. And on a Monday after a busy weekend they would come in literally with a satchel full of cheques, and the cheques were written in various stages of inebriation, usually not for very much\u2014about $10 or $15\u2014and often by the same account holder three or four times during the evening. It was quite interesting to watch: the handwriting changed the more cheques they wrote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EOf course, in those days cheques were subject to bounce, and so the merchants took quite a bit of a risk in accepting a cheque. You would probably hand over some form of ID, but those poor students, with their bursary backstop accounts, often got into overdraft more than their limit, and those cheques bounced back. With credit cards, of course, payment was guaranteed, and that\u2019s where the zip-zap comes in. I\u2019m sure Mr O\u2019Connor remembers the awful, awful National Bank ad of that fellow in a three-piece suit dancing along the Parnell shopping mall, saying something like \u201CZip-zap, the only card you really need is National Bank Visa.\u201D And it was a very good card, but, of course, there was a whole pile of paper to be processed and the overhead of the Visa companies guaranteeing payment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ESo in the 1970s and 1980s, when credit card use was a growing but very manual process, it was probably quite acceptable to the merchants to have what was then a 3 or 3.5 percent service fee in return for the fact that once that transaction was completed, it was guaranteed payment into the merchant\u2019s bank account. Now, if you fast forward through the advent of the ATM and then the EFTPOS machine and then tap-and-go technology, we are long past the point where there was any risk, firstly, either in cheques\u2014because I don\u2019t know if anybody writes a cheque these days. Most banks don\u2019t even issue them. So there\u2019s\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e59b3ef282b4a039928110031f2d191\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Stuart Nash knows\u2014Nashy knows a bit about tap and go!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224459632fb3f64dc685cbb931b459dc2e\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! I won\u2019t even repeat that to put it on the Hansard\u2014or maybe I just have. But, obviously, there\u2019s guaranteed payment through the EFTPOS system, and, of course, there\u2019s no advantage to the merchants with the tap-and-go system for Visas, because they already had a guaranteed payment. The banks, of course, had the great benefit of not having to process manually those millions of bits of paper, and so they, I think, for years have been generating merchant service fees for a reason which has long since been made redundant. As Mr Bennett said, I think, the cost was something like about $74 million, not on the merchant; almost probably three quarters of those costs are passed on to the customers. One could argue that the customer has a choice not to use their credit card, but it has become a very convenient way of paying and then getting interest-free credit for 55 days. So there is actually a real benefit to doing so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ENormally, I would say that the State should not interfere with the private arrangements of purchaser and provider, but I am going to suspend that philosophical view on this bill because, actually, I think unless there\u2019s a circuit breaker, this will continue to be free money for banks, because, as I say, the reason for having the fee in the first place has long since passed. There\u2019s a small fee maxima in here. That makes sense. I hope\u2014well, it is a forlorn hope\u2014that the Government doesn\u2019t take this as carte blanche to interfere with other transactions between willing buyers and willing sellers. Indeed, they\u2019re already doing that. They\u2019re doing that in private contract law between landlord and tenant through the omnibus bill and COVID-19, and a plethora of other unnecessary State interventions on private transactions. But on this one, I can see the need, if not the merit, for doing so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019ll support this at first reading. We\u2019ll be interested in what the merchants, the customers, the banks, and, of course, the credit card companies will have to say about this. They\u2019ll probably have to swallow the rat and pretend that they like it and that it\u2019s good for their business. I doubt that it is, but I also doubt that they\u2019re going to be losing too much sleep over the lost revenue. What will be good, though, is that this will ultimately benefit the consumers as much as the merchants, and, for that, that\u2019s a good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u00220152bd237eb64a94820bf76d9ed6ca50\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220152bd237eb64a94820bf76d9ed6ca50\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E It was interesting to listen to the speech of Michael Woodhouse, and at around five minutes I was able to work out that he was actually supporting the bill and his reasons for it. And I did get a good lesson in cheque writing and student behaviour, so thank you for that. But Andrew Bayly talked about this bill as being a small affair, and I think that\u2019s really indicative of the attitude that the other side of the House shows to small business in New Zealand. They\u2019re suggesting that $74 million doesn\u2019t mean much. Actually, the Stuff website has done an analysis that shows that small businesses stand to save around $13,000 difference in fees each in the hospitality business compared to their Australian counterparts. That\u2019s a significant amount of money for businesses that operate on small margins. And if we look at how many small businesses there are in New Zealand, according to the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment, 97 percent of our businesses in New Zealand, have 50 employees or under. So this is not a small deal to them, and they make up a third of New Zealand employees. Lots and lots of people stand to benefit from this legislation. This is not a small deal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EChris Baillie, I couldn\u2019t quite understand his logic around the wage subsidy not helping businesses but the workers. On this side of the House, the workers are the business. When there are 50 employees or less in a business, those people make up that workforce. It is their sweat that makes up those businesses. And that wage subsidy that this Government has introduced is not only helping those workers and the business, it\u2019s helping cash flow, and getting cash flow into the economy is helping the economic recovery. And can I just remind the House that the economy expanded 2.8 percent in the June 2021 quarter and 12 of the 16 industries recorded growth in the June quarter. So this is not a small deal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI also don\u2019t think it\u2019s fair to my friend and colleague and fantastic MP for Dunedin, David Clark, to say that this is the bill that he\u2019s standing on. Minister Clark has introduced a suite of measures around unfair competition, including the section 36 amendments in the Commerce Amendment Bill. He\u2019s done the reports into the dominance of the food and grocery sectors, and a number of other things that look specifically at anti-competitive behaviour. So this is a fantastic bill. I am really thrilled to be supporting my friend and colleague Dr Clark and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002294af403904634bf59bd5c3e5597f69a7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Retail Payment System Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 110\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; New Zealand National 33; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000639\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00224c05d13dd47b449c990981d57f9c9785\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c05d13dd47b449c990981d57f9c9785\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the Retail Payment System Bill be considered by the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227607554685e646dab9c1a6c55d31516a\u0022\u003EInstruction to the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u002275cc0e9afaf14de387f8b389bba26679\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275cc0e9afaf14de387f8b389bba26679\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Retail Payment System Bill be reported back to the House by 3 March 2022.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d1ee578fa5344ab98989efde322dafa5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022903471f71f0d453cace28b64c1a4607a\u0022\u003ERemuneration Authority Legislation Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002275dd8a1219b5481996423c342e959ad3\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u00226eb62ac3d8f6400383e5f6ccee74be8c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226eb62ac3d8f6400383e5f6ccee74be8c\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH (Minister for Economic and Regional Development)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Associate Minister of Justice: I present a legislative statement on the Remuneration Authority Legislation Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fb74a843722430680002e8ba2ad72aa\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ace096d1cd2e48bf9137cd85fa93451e\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Remuneration Authority Legislation Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI nominate the Justice Committee to consider the bill. This bill will enhance public confidence in our judicial system by making changes relating to the responsibility to determine the remuneration of some of our statutory and judicial officers. Judicial independence is a core pillar of any democracy, and independent judiciary protects the citizenry from the arbitrary use of power by the executive. Security of remuneration is one of the measures that enable officers to discharge their duties without fear or favour or any undue influence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThere are currently two mechanisms in New Zealand for determining the remuneration of judicial and statutory officers. One is the Cabinet Fees Framework, administered by Te Kawa Mataaho Public Service Commission on behalf of the executive. The other is the Remuneration Authority, an independent statutory body that determines remuneration for judicial statutory officers that need to have, and to be seen to have, independence from Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe key differences between these two mechanisms is the degree of independence from the executive. This bill transfers the responsibility for determining the remuneration from some of the judicial statutory officers from the Cabinet Fees Framework to the Remuneration Authority on the basis that they need to have, or be seen to have, greater independence from the Government because of the judicial responsibilities associated with their roles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003ESome of the officers that this bill seeks to transfer are officers who are already judicial decision makers but whose remuneration are currently determined under the Cabinet Fees Framework; these include community magistrates of the District Court, and commissioners and deputy commissioners of the Environment Court. Secondly, the bill transfers disputes tribunal referees and Tenancy Tribunal adjudicators from the Cabinet Fees Framework to the Remuneration Authority. Disputes tribunal referees hear the majority of the substantive cases fought before the civil jurisdiction of the District Court. Both disputes tribunal referees and Tenancy Tribunal adjudicators have had significant increases in their jurisdiction over the past couple of years. As crucial members of our legal system, it is important that the officers presiding over these matters are seen as independent of the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI am of the view that this transfer will enhance public confidence in the integrity and independence of these tribunals. This is particularly important as these officers deal with cases that the ordinary New Zealander is greatly affected by, such as: their conditions of living, disputes between individuals, and grievances against a business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe bill also chairs the deputy chairperson and members of the Immigration and Protection Tribunal from the Cabinet Fees Framework to the purview of the Remuneration Authority, as these officers hear appeals against decisions of the Minister of Immigration. It is important that officers who hear appeals from decisions of Government Ministers are seen to be independent of the executive and unable to be influenced through their remuneration to be partial to a Government decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe last of the officers to whom this bill relates are the chairperson and deputy chairpersons of the Human Rights Review Tribunal, who have the authority to declare an Act of Parliament inconsistent with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. Any officers with a significant power, such as this, should be given extra protection to ensure its independence. For this reason, the bill transfers the responsibility for determining the remuneration of the chair and deputy chairs of the tribunal from the Cabinet Fees Framework to the Remuneration Authority. To implement these transfers, the bill creates permanent legislative authorities under the relevant legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EI understand and endorse the principles that underpin the Cabinet Fees Framework, but also acknowledge that some officers need to be and need to be seen to be independent of the Government. For this reason, I consider it necessary that the responsibility for determining the remuneration of these judicial and statutory officers be transferred from the Cabinet Fees Framework administered by the executive to the independent Remuneration Authority in order to enforce the independence of these officers from the Government\u2019s influence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EFinally, I consider the select committee process to be very important. I encourage members of the public to have their say on the bill when the committee calls for submissions. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002285d41dd096364d05b7bbdf3ca4c1ae32\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002285d41dd096364d05b7bbdf3ca4c1ae32\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe07b9fbcbf34cb6934f318723ff0965\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe07b9fbcbf34cb6934f318723ff0965\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E It has been a long-held, a deeply held, a sincerely held desire of mine over a number of years in this Parliament to speak on a remuneration bill. So tonight is a special night. In that regard, I suppose, I do tick something off my bucket list, and it is really good to do that. I just want to commend the Minister Stuart Nash. I know this is not his bill; it is the Hon Sir Aupito William Sio\u2019s bill. But, clearly, Minister Nash put a lot of time into that speech. He thought a lot about the issues. So I just want to say that we appreciate that on this side of the House, the sort of attention that Ministers like Minister Nash give. I know he has got a lot going on. He is on Hosking tomorrow morning. It is a big time for him. But we appreciate that. I also accept what he says, and I\u2019m sure there will be a lot of submissions on this bill, because there is so much in it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EThis is an omnibus bill, and, of course, not all omnibus matters are correct or are appropriate. That is where there are disparate laws that are being changed as a result of one bill. They either are or they aren\u2019t in line with the Standing Orders, in Standing Order 267(1)(a) in particular. But here, of course, for the reasons that Minister Nash has outlined, that is because there is an overarching theme here of transferring responsibility for remuneration determination for these various disparate quasi-judicial roles and statutory officers to the Remuneration Authority\u2014well, then, an omnibus bill is appropriate and is within the Standing Orders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EThe reason, of course, that we are able to do that and that National will support this bill is that it is right\u2014in light of the judicial roles, the statutory functions that these various officers and quasi-judicial roles have\u2014that they are removed, that they are independent, and that they are paid, bluntly. That is, their remuneration, their conditions that go with the pay are removed from this place, from Parliament, from the executive, and from anything that might be influenced by this place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EIn the list of those offices that are affected by this bill and will be one step, or distanced\u2014appropriately\u2014from this place and the executive, are the chair and deputy chairpersons of the Human Rights Review Tribunal, community magistrates of the District Court, environment commissioners and deputy environment commissioners of the Environment Court, members and deputy chairs of the Immigration and Protection Tribunal, referees of the disputes tribunal, and tenancy adjudicators of the Tenancy Tribunal. In inflationary times, I might say\u2014and I\u2019m not seeking to be unduly flippant on this bill\u2014but these various offices, I would have thought, might be somewhat glad to be removed from the hurly-burly of this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EMPs are expected to don sack cloth and walk around the streets, yelling, \u201CUnclean, unclean.\u201D, and begging not to be paid more. Whereas here, actually, we\u2019ve got a bill that makes quite clear they may not be paid less\u2014any Remuneration Authority determination that is to happen every year can only be the same or more. That is appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EI would, though, and I do, again, I suppose, not so subtly, note the quite clear contrast to members of Parliament. I well remember in Cabinet and in Government, the situations where Remuneration Authority chairs would come and would be\u2014I shouldn\u2019t say \u201Ccome\u201D, but by correspondence\u2014making quite clear that they thought, in terms of the context and what others in similar positions were being paid and so on, we should be getting pay rises. Clearly, in political terms, given the environment we are in, that wasn\u2019t deemed appropriate, and we\u2019d be, in no uncertain terms, going back and saying, \u201CNo. Don\u2019t put our terms, our conditions, our salaries, and the various other matters that make remuneration, up.\u201D So that is the difference with this place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EAnd, I think, again, perhaps not so subtly, what that means is that with our accountability in this place to the people, with election cycles and so on, we have the right to play politics, to do politics, and to speak politically in a way that those who are also, in the broader sense, part of the Government, but in judicial and quasi-judicial positions, don\u2019t. And they get that distanced, independent Remuneration Authority process in terms of the ongoing surety and ratcheting up of their remuneration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EWe do support this bill. It is right that these are independent. I\u2019m sure it will be an interesting select committee process that Mr Nash and I can both watch with that great interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u00225bd3706e681a4b2db182e60d1d57d91b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225bd3706e681a4b2db182e60d1d57d91b\u0022\u003EGINNY ANDERSEN (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to speak on the Remuneration Authority Legislation Bill. When Simon Bridges gets up to start a speech, you think, \u201CIs he actually going to do 10 minutes on this?\u201D, and he nearly made it, I was impressed. I wasn\u2019t quite sure what the position was, but it\u2019s a pleasure to hear that National will be supporting this bill and it will be going through to the Justice Committee. I look forward to hearing those submissions. I can see from the speech before that the other member is also very excited.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo, in a nutshell, what does this do? Well, there\u2019s two ways you can get paid in terms of some of these key roles that have been discussed. The first one is the Cabinet Fees Framework and the second is the Remuneration Authority. Essentially, what this bill does is it makes a swap for a number of key entities. You may well ask, \u201CHow did that come about?\u201D Well, there was a review. An independent principles-based review was undertaken by a chap called Martin Jenkins in 2018, and it was established that there were some key roles that\u2014the principal difference between the Remuneration Authority and the Cabinet Fees Framework is the degree of independence from the Government on those remuneration decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo on the basis of that review, there are six entities, there are six areas that will be transferring in order to have greater transparency and for the members of the New Zealand general public to have a greater level of understanding that it\u2019s an arm\u2019s length from Government. So those six entities are: disputes tribunal referees, community magistrates of the District Court, the chairperson and deputy of the Human Rights Review Tribunal, the deputy and the members Immigration and Protection Tribunal, the environment commissioners and deputy of the Environment Court, and, finally, Tenancy Tribunal adjudicators.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo, in a nutshell, what this does is it transfers over to those entities and it basically enhances public confidence in our judicial system by making those changes. I look forward to it coming to the Justice Committee and hearing the numerous submissions that we\u2019ll receive on this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2fafd11cb0f44cbacaa13d6705a43cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2fafd11cb0f44cbacaa13d6705a43cd\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. The Remuneration Authority Legislation Bill\u2014so for the benefit of members of the public interested in watching, viewing, this evening\u2019s debate, remuneration, of course is\u2014it\u2019s known\u2014money paid for work or service, and this bill is specific to the judicial or quasi-judicial services provided here in Aotearoa New Zealand \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EThe bill is a simple change which will give an added layer of political neutrality to the setting of fees for judicial officers, and that\u2019s been canvassed by previous speakers in the House this evening. The Remuneration Authority is seen as the fair, the independent body who should be tasked with determining remuneration for the judicial officers. So the Remuneration Authority already sets the various rates or remuneration for judges, including justices of the Supreme Court; so the judicial independence from Government is important as it enhances public confidence in the operation of the law and the importance of the separations of the powers of State, which is the executive, the Government; the legislature, we as parliamentary members forming Parliament to make and pass laws; and, of course, the judiciary, the judges, who are affected, and quasi-judicial officers affected in this setting of their remuneration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EThis bill is to pass into law with amendments, and it\u2019s referred to and known as an omnibus bill to deal with six other Acts. Now, it may seem that I\u2019m stating the obvious to members of Parliament who are here this evening but I\u2019m always mindful that we are addressing members of the public who are listening in. So this omnibus bill is looking at amending six other pieces of law to transfer the responsibility for determining the remuneration of the following judicial officers\u2014and it\u2019s been addressed in part by members this evening. Those are judicial officers of the Human Rights Review Tribunal, namely the chairperson and deputy chairperson; community magistrates of the District Court, who have already had their remuneration addressed under the District Courts Act; the commissioners and deputy commissioners of the Environment Court; members and deputy chairs of the Immigration and Protection Tribunal; referees of the disputes tribunal; and tenancy adjudicators of the Tenancy Tribunal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003ESo, as I said, the bill is a simple change but it\u2019s an important one for the very reason of ensuring that separation of the powers which form or are known as the branches of powers of the Crown, of the State. The background to this bill is that an independent principles-based review was undertaken to determine whether the Cabinet Fees Framework or the Remuneration Authority is the more appropriate mechanism. It\u2019s on the recommendation of that review that this bill is now before the House. It\u2019s before the House, as I\u2019ve said, addressing the remuneration, the rates, and the apportionment of that to the appointment of judges and quasi-judicial officers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EAs I\u2019ve said in the House before, when I rise to speak on a matter that I am conversant with, I will always attempt to relate or co-relate that back to persons who give service. I wish to acknowledge the recent appointment of now Justice Layne Harvey, who has presided as a M\u0101ori Land Court judge for the last 19 years and, of course, knows full well the impact of the Remuneration Authority and the setting of the pay scale and rates. But it\u2019s appropriate that I acknowledge him for his ascension to the High Court to join Justice Christian Whata, and I mention both of them specifically as they were former student peers when we were at Auckland Law School.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EI also acknowledge, appropriately, Judge Frances Eivers, who has been appointed as the new Children\u2019s Commissioner, to take office as of 1 November. So Judge Eivers, again like Judge Harvey, is conversant with the powers of the State and the Remuneration Authority, and Judge Eivers brings a depth and breadth of experience to the bench in her service, as Justice Harvey does, with their tenure of service as judges on the bench. I also acknowledge the recent appointment of three M\u0101ori Land Court judges who will soon become familiar with the Remuneration Authority, and they are judges Te Kani Williams, again a former Auckland Law School student peer, graduate, and servant of the law; Judge Aidan Warren; and Judge Rachel Mullins. And it\u2019s appropriate that I seize that opportunity, because it does have bearing on the relevance of this bill soon to be passed into law, which is supported as being appropriate from the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EThe Remuneration Authority Legislation Bill will come before the select committee, which is the Justice Committee, and I don\u2019t have the privilege of presiding there. However, it will be interesting to see the extent of any submissions that are made to this. I\u2019m cognisant of the time when I served as a District Court lawyer, the service that was given by the magistrates in the court. They are known as quasi-judicial officers because they do not have a law degree, but they have a depth and level of experience of service in the law through their respective community engagements. I\u2019ve outlined the other areas in terms of the tribunals and the commissions and the courts which will be affected, appropriately, by the transfer of the decision-making authority from Government, under the Cabinet Fees Framework, to the independent Remuneration Authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EAlso, what I didn\u2019t hear addressed in the House this evening is that this bill will affect the making of five new permanent legislative authorities. They are to be established to authorise the payments made from public money without a specific appropriation from Parliament, and these permanent legislative authorities are required because the remuneration for these officers is to be determined independently of the Government. I stress, importantly, that separation of the branches of power. This bill will ensure that. And, with that, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022 data-id=\u002216f5ed8492d445649f895bafb2fd43fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216f5ed8492d445649f895bafb2fd43fa\u0022\u003EDr EMILY HENDERSON (Labour\u2014Whang\u0101rei):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare. I rise with great enthusiasm, possibly even equal to the enthusiasm of my colleague Mr Bridges, to speak on this bill tonight, because this is a really important piece of legislation. There is nothing more important than the separation of powers and the fact that there are people out there in the world holding the people in this room to account and the people in the executive to account. There is nothing more important than the independence of the judiciary in the operation of our democracy, or at least it\u2019s at least as important as the other things that hold our democracy together. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EI remember nearly a year ago sitting over there in the very, very backbenches when Black Rod banged on the door. It took me straight back to my years in Tikipunga High School in Whang\u0101rei and the teachings of the now Dr Brent Mawson, when he described the beginnings of the code of judicial independence in the years leading up to the English Civil War and the brave, brave work of judges like Sir Edward Coke, who took on King James, a despot and a tyrant if there ever was one, and refused to cede him absolute power. It was in those moments that we began to become a democracy that endures to this day and will be considerably strengthened and protected again by what might seem a small matter, but is never a small matter when it comes to the protection of our democracy. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u002224e3810495ae40989706268519cc9501\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224e3810495ae40989706268519cc9501\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise to take a call on behalf of the Green Party, also, surprisingly, in support of the Remuneration Authority Legislation Bill, controversial as it seems to be. Though, actually I\u2019m going to change tack and actually have my words mean what I say, unlike Simon Bridges\u2019 speech, which mostly seemed to be kind of sliding under the radar.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003ESo this is a pretty simple and technical bill, actually. It\u2019s following through on a review by MartinJenkins from 2018 looking at whether the setting for judicial and statutory officers\u2019 pay should be\u2014was it being appropriately managed through the Cabinet fund process? They concluded that community magistrates, disputes tribunal referees, environment commissioners, deputy environment commissioners are judicial decision makers and their remuneration should be determined independently of Government by the Remuneration Authority, and that there were some grey areas in coverage from the Cabinet processes, which was, effectively, set by the executive that gave, while not super close\u2014but the ability for executive to influence the work of the judiciary by setting pay rates and influencing those pay rates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003ESo this bill amends the Remuneration Authority Act 1977 and six other Acts to transfer responsibility for determining the remuneration for the fees following judicial officers: the chairperson and deputy chairperson of the Human Rights Review Tribunal, community magistrates of the District Court, environment commissioners and deputy environment commissioners of the Environment Court, members and deputy chairs of the Immigration and Protection Tribunal, referees of the disputes tribunal, and tenancy adjudicators of the Tenancy Tribunal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003ESo this is important, and I think the last speech gave us the history of some of the times of where the judicial independence really protected the people from governing arrangements that had gone awry. It is something that is really important for us to protect. It is central to public trust and ensuring that shifting this to the Remuneration Authority, I think, also increases a sense of fairness and transparency when it comes the pay scale of judiciary and judicial officers, and, in particular, for those decision makers whose work impacts on the rights and welfare of the public. The Greens would say it\u2019s also important that pay scales remain reflective of the important and difficult work being done by the group covered by this bill. They, respectively, make decisions affecting people\u2019s liberty in fair processing criminal proceedings, access to our human rights and non-discrimination laws, environment protections, and the rights of renters to secure adequate housing, among other things; so playing a pretty critical role in our society. We want to make sure that that work is not undermined by any potential undercutting of their pay that could unintentionally or intentionally force people out of doing that work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003ESo I guess the next steps beyond this bill are for there to be fairness and transparency measures right across our public sector and our society, indeed, where all of the really critical roles in our society are fairly paid and relative to each other. So the Greens are happy to support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u00226d43fe32c29742a3aa9e7846db13ecea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d43fe32c29742a3aa9e7846db13ecea\u0022\u003ENICOLE McKEE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I stand in support of the Remuneration Authority Legislation Bill and would like to acknowledge the Minister, the Hon Aupito William Sio, for bringing this bill to the House. The purpose of this bill is to transfer the determination of fees from the Cabinet Fees Framework to the Remuneration Authority, and that was done off the back of a review, which has already been discussed at length by several members. The review has, of course, found that there are sets of judiciary personnel, I guess is what we\u2019ll call them, that are actually currently being paid by the Government\u2019s fee regime. And I think it\u2019s really important that we do ensure that there is independence between the judiciary and the Government, especially when it comes to public trust, because that public trust and confidence has been wavering quite a lot recently, especially when we look at\u2014I don\u2019t know; it\u2019s not judiciary\u2014Government payments to media. And then we have the public thinking, of course, that the media are doing the Government\u2019s work for them and not giving them the full story.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003ESo I think it\u2019s really important that we have that balance where, when we are working within the judiciary, we do have that independence and there cannot be a claim that Government is buying off the justice system. Because, with some of the things that have been happening within our justice system more recently, especially with being soft on crime as an example, you would think that there is some payment possibly going on there, although it\u2019s not. And the review itself found that, in order to make sure that we have a clear line, we should actually remove that framework away from the Government and give it to the Remuneration Authority. And ACT does support that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003ESeveral members here tonight have talked about the members of the judiciary who this will affect, and, while they have named them, I thought I would just go a little bit further and name actually what they do, because that puts a bit of context behind why we need to separate them. So, for example, the chairperson and deputy chairperson of the Human Rights Review Tribunal come under this regime, and it\u2019s important that they do, because each case that they hear, they chair\u2014or the deputy will chair it\u2014and they have two panel members there. And I note also that those panel members don\u2019t come under this review; it\u2019s just the chairperson and the deputy chairperson. And the review actually found that their jurisdiction is comparable to that of a judge. So, with that high importance, you would expect that they should be moved into the new regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003ECommunity magistrates at the District Court\u2014they\u2019re, effectively, hearing the cases that a District Court judge would be hearing. So, again, it makes sense that they would be moved into the new regime. Environment commissioners\u2014they\u2019re deputies of the Environment Court. Again, it\u2019s another court, and they hear a lot of appeals. They are skilled workers with lots of qualifications that make decisions that affect the environment and also their local councils as well. So it does make sense that they are also moved into the new regime. Members and deputy chairs of Immigration and the Protection Tribunal\u2014now, it\u2019s really important that they, when hearing appeals, hear them as being independent from Government, especially when a lot of those appeals actually involve the Minister of Immigration. So pulling those two apart and having a separate regime will stop any accusations, especially when there are people who have been given residency or access to come into New Zealand and then create terror while they\u2019re here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThen, of course, there are the tenancy adjudicators and the Tenancy Tribunal. These are already chaired by a District Court judge, but it puts the remuneration determinations for the other tribunal members in the hands of the Remuneration Authority, just as it does for those judges that are chairing over the Tenancy Tribunal. And then there\u2019s the disputes tribunal referees, which, of course, come under a division of the District Court, and referees also need to be qualified. So, again, it makes sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003ESo, as we went through this bill and we listed all of those different areas that needed to be moved over to the Remuneration Authority and away from the fees framework, we agreed wholeheartedly that it was really important that they are moved away, because it\u2019s important\u2014they are important roles and we want to make sure that there is no conflict. We want to make sure that these people that are administering the Government\u2019s legislation can do so independently, because this will help ensure that we have trust and confidence between the public and the judiciary. We think this will go a long way towards mending some of that trust and confidence that has already been lost. It just goes to show the Government will not be paying for the outcomes that these courts determine. So the importance of the work that they do, the qualifications of these people that are in these jobs, and the relevance of the work that they do, we wholeheartedly agree that there needs to be some independence in those determinations, for the reasons I outlined just through this speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019re quite happy to support this bill. We think that it\u2019s a good job well done, and we look forward to it coming to the Justice Committee, where we can hear some of the other ideas from submitters and look to put this bill forward. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u00227e889127c8f64e2ea723a817dec5966a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e889127c8f64e2ea723a817dec5966a\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Speaker. Thank you for the call on the Remuneration Authority Legislation Bill. A year into this role\u2014this vocation, is it?\u2014as a member of Parliament for New Plymouth, an honour is also a word that comes to mind, there\u2019s many, many things you learn and many things you have to learn quickly. Understanding remuneration, understanding the courts, understanding things that I never knew or even cared a lot about, to be honest, because I knew it just worked and operated. But this piece of legislation is around ensuring integrity in our democracy\u2014that it gives the public confidence in our system. There\u2019s often words we hear thrown around around transparency, impartiality, integrity, and this piece of legislation is around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EThis bill was initiated after an independent, principles-based review concluded that the Remuneration Authority, rather than the Cabinet Fees Framework, is the most appropriate mechanism for setting the remuneration of statutory and judicial officers administered by the Minister of Justice. Some pretty big words that I\u2019m learning a year in! Let\u2019s be honest, the Plain Language Bill last week was significant for me, as we go on, and I want lots of plain language and lots of\u2014I was going to say four letter words, but that\u2019s probably unhelpful\u2014shorter words around this. Anyway, the Remuneration Authority Legislation Bill is around the remuneration for some roles that can be defined as judicial in nature and are under the authority of the Cabinet Fees Framework, which is led and determined by the executive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ENow, this bill requires more than two minutes of conversation. It\u2019s important stuff. As I said, it\u2019s around transparency; it\u2019s around digging deep into what is important. In 1977, actually, I was two years old, and I do vaguely remember when this was actually brought into this House and passed\u2014I don\u2019t, actually, but I was two years old. I know you think I probably wasn\u2019t born for another 10 or 20 years but I had been. And, of course, someone talked around the omnibus. This is around six other Acts in terms of legislation, and it\u2019s around the Cabinet Fees Framework and the authority. I know a Green MP and colleague mentioned it earlier, but it\u2019s around the chairperson and deputy chairperson of the Human Rights Review Tribunal, it\u2019s around the community magistrates of the District Court, it\u2019s around environment commissioners and deputy environment commissioners of the Environment Court, it\u2019s also around members and deputy chairs of the Immigration and Protection Tribunal, it\u2019s also around referees of the disputes tribunals, tenancy adjudicators of the Tenancy Tribunal, so it covers a lot. And like I said before, the fact that it\u2019s bringing it into the Remuneration Authority\u2014I\u2019ve almost got that word right\u2014rather than the Cabinet Fees Framework.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ENow, the remuneration of these officers that I just mentioned earlier will remain the same until the Remuneration Authority makes its first determination. Now, Madam Speaker, I would like you to know that I don\u2019t drink when I\u2019m on precinct, so just in case you\u2019re wondering\u2014I shouldn\u2019t even say that. But I come back to the Plain Language Bill from last week. Thank you very much, Rachel Boyack, who is actually in the Chamber at the moment. That was a mighty piece of legislation that I support, as you can tell, wholeheartedly right now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ESo I am grateful to stand here for something that, again, as I said, I\u2019ve often dealt with and worked in spaces where I\u2019m negotiating and working when it comes to\u2014whether it be lawyers, whether it be judges, whether it be in other parts of the judicial system. So for me it is really around that transparency, that impartiality that is important. So as I said\u2014as I began my speech\u2014and I think it sort of feels appropriate to end it that way\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f90f0af7415a40dc8353061ee30c17d6\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: More!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe584fd1fb13452caf34ed490d566b19\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: If I can get my tongue around the words correctly. This piece of legislation is ensuring integrity in our democracy, which gives the public confidence in our system, and for that reason, the Remuneration Authority Legislation Bill is something I support and I commend to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u002211bbf0e5c8fc4d4586b32f0c22f04ecd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211bbf0e5c8fc4d4586b32f0c22f04ecd\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m delighted to hear, as I\u2019m sure other members in the House were, from the previous speaker, Glen Bennett, that he doesn\u2019t imbibe when he\u2019s on the parliamentary precinct, but I couldn\u2019t help but wonder whether he maybe consumed some of the more famous herbal products from the beautiful Coromandel electorate, maybe. To give a speech of that sort is truly remarkable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI want to give a chocolate fish\u2014a virtual chocolate fish award\u2014to my ACT Party colleague Nicole McKee, who gave, probably by a hair\u2019s breadth, the longest contribution to this debate tonight. That\u2019s actually saying something, because this is a bill that, whilst short in nature, actually doesn\u2019t have an awful lot of detail to go around it in terms of filling out a debate slot. So Nicole McKee gets the virtual chocolate fish award for her contribution tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EBut other members have spoken widely and extensively about the judicial officers who will be covered by this piece of legislation and the changes that it makes. But many of them have not spoken about the fact that this is actually an omnibus bill, and not only does it seek to provide a formalisation of a very important concept within our constitutional framework in New Zealand\u2014that is the separation of powers and the absolute independence of our judiciary\u2014but what this bill also does is it amends several other statutes, including amongst them the Disputes Tribunal Act 1988. The amendments are also made to the District Courts Act 2016, to the Human Rights Act 1993, to the Immigration Act 2009, to the Residential Tenancies Act 1986, and to the much maligned and already many times amended Resource Management Act 1991.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo not only are these judicial officers now going to have their remuneration and pay rates established with a degree of separation from the Cabinet process\u2014and I think that\u2019s right and proper. In some ways, I\u2019m relatively surprised that maybe this action hasn\u2019t been taken some time before, but now that it\u2019s here, I guess that better late than never is probably a good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EOne of the judicial officers that is to have their remuneration established under the new regime will be the community magistrates of the District Court. I want to\u2014in the time that\u2019s available to me tonight\u2014put on record my grateful thanks for a group of New Zealanders who perform judicial duties and hold judicial office but receive no remuneration. That\u2019s, of course, our hard-working volunteer justices of the peace, of whom there are about 10,000, I think, around the countryside. I have the privilege of being one of them. But I also had the privilege, recently, of attending the annual general meeting of the Hauraki Justices of the Peace Association. They were in good heart doing good work, but for no remuneration at all\u2014entirely voluntary, unlike the judicial officers in this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo I want to give them a shout-out, because I think that justices of the peace actually provide a remarkable foundation stone\u2014the framework upon which our entire judicial and legal system is actually formed, because if it was not for the work that they do, our judicial and legal system would come to a grinding halt. Much of the work that they used to do, sitting in District Courts, is now being done in a paid and remunerated way by these community magistrates who sit in the District Courts. I\u2019m not 100 percent convinced that the old system of having volunteer justices of the peace who did not want to be remunerated at all\u2014maybe they were given a small allowance for lunch and sometimes reimbursed for their parking expenses, but that was about the only cost. They did it voluntarily and they did it with keenness and vigour and huge attention to detail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI think our judicial system has lost something from having so few volunteer justices of the peace actually filling roles that are now being filled by people who are commanding pretty good levels of remuneration in this legislation. So look, maybe we\u2019ll get a chance to tease that out at select committee. National will support this to first reading. We do want to hear what people have to say. On balance, we think it\u2019s probably a good piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022 data-id=\u0022c60e3a32130d4d70ae3765c1451467b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c60e3a32130d4d70ae3765c1451467b6\u0022\u003ET\u0100MATI COFFEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Can I encourage that previous member to actually dip into his pocket and pull out money for an actual chocolate fish for the ACT member of Parliament Nicole McKee. Virtual chocolate fishes\u2014people that give those are called cheapskates where we come from. However, this is about the bill, and I\u2019m very excited to be speaking about this bill tonight. Let\u2019s get the name of it right, because my colleague over here to my left was a little bit [Hums] about it, but it is the Remuneration Authority Legislation Bill, and it is going to the Justice Committee. I wish them all the best as they traverse through this one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard, debate after debate, people talk about the checks and the balances, the belts and the braces, the trust and the confidence that we need to uphold at every level in this Parliament to ensure that the public of New Zealand have complete faith and confidence in what\u2019s going on here. It\u2019s pretty technical, though, and for those people that are sitting at home, all they really need to know and understand is that what we\u2019re putting in here is an ability to create some independence from the way that remuneration is currently set. So that is an important measure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003ECurrently, the Cabinet Fees Framework sets a lot of that. A lot of that is going to be transferred over, as you\u2019ve heard in previous speeches, to the Remuneration Authority. Namely, I just wanted to talk out just this little bit in the detail of this bill here, which talks about the different Acts that are going to be affected as that responsibility is transferred from the Cabinet Fees Framework to the authority. So we\u2019re talking about the chairperson and the deputy chairperson of the Human Rights Review Tribunal. You\u2019re talking about the community magistrates of the District Courts. We\u2019re talking about environment commissioners and deputy environment commissioners of the Environment Court\u2014also, members and deputy chairs of the Immigration and Protection Tribunal, referees of the disputes tribunal, and tenancy adjudicators of the Tenancy Tribunal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EAgain, the bureaucracy here is what you\u2019d expect from a bill that sets pay rates for some of our senior officials and those members that have statutory and judicial obligations to our country. The people at home should know that this is a good piece of legislation. It\u2019s getting support from around the House. It is one way that we can ensure that we have trust and faith, belts and braces, checks and balances\u2014however you want to put it\u2014that arm\u2019s length of responsibility from the work that Government does as the executive, the work that they do, compared to outside of that. Creating that independence is incredibly important for ensuring that we have independence in our system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003ESo for that reason, this is a good piece of legislation. It is going to make sure that we\u2019ve got trust and confidence in our system. It is one of the core pillars of any democracy, that whole idea of the independent judiciary protecting citizens from the arbitrary use of unbridled power that the executive have\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224bbc8416a8146b08d3e1fb9f82d962a\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Tell us more!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8c016463d1a4a2b9641bc3e2af9b93a\u0022\u003ET\u0100MATI COFFEY\u003C/span\u003E: I will\u2014I will! I\u2019ll give you about a minute 37 more. We\u2019ve got to make sure that that is protected, so making sure that we\u2019ve got security of remuneration as one of the measures that enable officers to be able to discharge their duties without fear or favour or even undue influence as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EThis is a very good piece of legislation. It is going to no doubt get submissions from people that are heavily involved in this, which I\u2019d guess aren\u2019t the majority of New Zealanders out there. But there will be people that do have a point of view on this, and I think that they should feel free to make sure that their submission is heard, which will be open very shortly. They can be heard on any part of the bill that they like. They can go to the Parliament website. They can download it. They can have a look at the different pieces of submissions and advice that have come in around this. But this is a good piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EI want to tell you a story, actually. This is a story that has everything to do with remuneration\u2014my first job, actually. I was packing bags at The Warehouse. My first job was actually around making sure that there were people at the checkouts packing stuff into bags at The Warehouse in Lower Hutt at the grand age of 15. I got paid $5.25 for the pleasure of packing other people\u2019s bags. But, actually, it just goes to show that remuneration is incredibly important, and, for that reason, I commend this to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00221d294e7b01e845a79e1f1f64f43acf30\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d294e7b01e845a79e1f1f64f43acf30\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY (Labour\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. How good is it to be in the House, yet again, where the House comes together on a piece of legislation like this, and it\u2019s nights like this, as we debate the Remuneration Authority Legislation Bill, that I refer to. Whenever I go around the Wairarapa electorate, be it in the Wairarapa or the Tararua district or Central Hawke\u2019s Bay, and speak to groups like Probus or Grey Power, where they don\u2019t want a political statement, and, frankly, I don\u2019t really want to give one, either, they just want to hear about the job\u2014the job of being an MP and the job of representing their region\u2014and I talk about moments like this. It might seem at the time to be a bit dreary and all of that sort of stuff, and we hear jokes about offering other members virtual chocolate fishes because they spoke the longest. But, actually, I think these moments are quite important, because what they demonstrate is that more often than people realise, the House can come together and put politics to the side and say to something, as is proposed by this bill, \u201CThis makes sense\u2014this makes sense.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI thought we were going to be there on the previous bill, where I thought it made sense and the vast majority of the members of the House thought it made sense, but this one\u2014the Remuneration Authority Legislation Bill\u2014does. It\u2019s a very straightforward and simple bill, but it makes sense. You may have noticed, Madam Speaker and colleagues in the House here, that just like my good friend and colleague Glen Bennett, I struggle to say \u201Cremuneration\u201D. It\u2019s just one of those words, but I always say \u201Crenumeration\u201D, and Dr Deborah Russell always points out, much to my embarrassment, that I have said it wrong. But this bill, the Remuneration Authority Legislation Bill, introduced earlier this month, does a pretty simple thing: it transfers responsibility for determining the remuneration of certain judicial and statutory officers to the Remuneration Authority to recognise the judicial nature of those positions, and that makes sense to me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI was a little bit worried. I did ponder as to what we were discussing earlier. Glen Bennett\u2014again, I\u2019ll mention him. He was accused by the Hon Scott Simpson of using the purple products from the Coromandel. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d86102528aff41b0981ae3718e88753a\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Disgusting\u2014awful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bfe8b79182b454f9a6bf3d060adf20c\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I didn\u2019t know\u2014was it awful, or was it disgusting? I didn\u2019t know. What on earth is a purple product? I don\u2019t know. I thought perhaps he was talking about cannabis, but perhaps it was one of those old man\u2019s sayings. It was like when you\u2019re talking to your grandfather and he tells you about the time you could get a gallon of gas for a threepence. You know, I just thought it was one of these old-fashioned sayings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ESo I googled it. I googled \u201Cpurple products\u201D, and I couldn\u2019t find anything except the Green Elephant lavender shop in Coromandel. So perhaps that\u2019s what Scott Simpson was referring to. I imagine\u2014just referring to the comments of previous speakers\u2014and I would like to say that he is a well-kempt man, is our Glen Bennett, and it would not surprise me if he went to the Green Elephant lavender shop in the Coromandel. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThis bill will enhance public confidence, because, ultimately, we are in a unique position in that New Zealand stands at the top of the world, ranked at No. 1, in the corruption index. That is because we have structures in place to avoid situations where there might be some form of gerrymandering of such public and judicial systems, and, ultimately, it shouldn\u2019t be up to those that set the law to set the pay for those that administer it. That is a very simple principle, and it\u2019s actually quite surprising\u2014and that\u2019s not a dig. It\u2019s not a political statement, but it\u2019s quite surprising that it\u2019s not until now that we\u2019re considering this, and I imagine that it\u2019s probably just one of those things that hasn\u2019t really been brought up. It\u2019s worked OK because of the nature of New Zealanders and the way that we operate. We are, on the whole, a trustworthy bunch. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EBut it\u2019s been picked up, it\u2019s been identified, and, as a result of a review, it was recommended by the reviewer MartinJenkins back in 2018 that an independent, principles-based review should take place. The question was pretty simple: should it be determined by the Cabinet Fees Framework or by the Remuneration Authority? Ultimately, it was deemed that the mechanisms for setting the Remuneration Authority for these positions should be set by the Remuneration Authority. That makes sense. They\u2019re the organisation that sets the pay of members of Parliament and Ministers, and that\u2019s as it should be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve all heard the stories, haven\u2019t we\u2014particularly overseas\u2014of members of Parliament voting for a salary increase for themselves whilst also doing things like voting down the minimum wage and feathering their own nest, if you like. As a result of those sorts of things, we\u2019ve seen a lack of trust develop amongst elected officials in countries, including New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve all heard it, I\u2019m sure\u2014that old myth that if you serve three terms of Parliament, you get a pension for life. I hear it all the time. I hear it all the time, and that may have been the case\u2014I don\u2019t know for sure, actually. That may have been the case back in 1977, when my good friend Glen Bennett was two, apparently. That may have been the case then\u2014I don\u2019t know\u2014but it 100 percent certainly is not the case now, and nor should it be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWhy should serving nine years in a job get you a pension for life? My old man has served 44 years in his job. He\u2019s not going to get a pension for life\u2014well, actually, he is, because he was on the old Government superannuation scheme. But, yeah, that\u2019s good, and it should never have been scrapped, actually\u2014while I\u2019m on the subject. He\u2019s only been able to use that because he\u2019s stayed in the same job that he had all those years ago for all this time. He\u2019s approaching his retirement, and I wish him well in that\u2013and they\u2019ve bought a caravan, God help the South Island! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ESo the review noted that \u201CCommunity Magistrates, Disputes Tribunal Referees, Environment Commissioners, and Deputy Environment Commissioners are judicial decision makers\u201D\u2014now, I just wanted to read that one little bit because there are quite big words in there\u2014\u201Cand their remuneration should be determined independently of Government by the Remuneration Authority.\u201D The Remuneration Authority Legislation Bill \u201Camends the Remuneration Authority Act 1977 and 6 other Acts to transfer responsibility for determining the remuneration for the following judicial officers\u201D, and there\u2019s three in particular\u2014because they\u2019ve all been named already tonight, but there are three I want to point out. They are the disputes tribunal referees and the Tenancy Tribunal adjudicators. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s unglamorous work, but it is such vital work for our justice system, and the fact that those two in particular have no lawyers. No lawyers are involved, no fancy words; just people that have a dispute over a particular topic coming together, and they hear the case of the both of them and they make a decision. It\u2019s not something I\u2019ve thought about much at all, but I was once involved in a Tenancy Tribunal process, and I didn\u2019t realise that the person that was the adjudicator there was actually doing so in a way that relieved the justice system of the strain of these relatively smaller\u2014not insignificant, but smaller\u2014cases. Of course, I wouldn\u2019t have thought that at the time. I was only a young man, only a student\u2014unfairly charged. I got away with it because I had a strong case. But I thank those that do these sorts of jobs, because they are so important. The other one too is the community magistrates of the District Court\u2014those members of the public that are performing such a crucial public role. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EMuch like the previous National speaker, the Hon Scott Simpson, I too would like to acknowledge the role that justices of the peace play in our electorates. Of course, as members of Parliament, it is on us to put forward recommendations for new justices of the peace in our areas, and I would put a call out there to people that are interested in doing this. It is a crucial role, and I\u2019m sure that all of us at various points in time have needed a justice of the peace at some point. But in some areas in the country, their numbers are considerably lower than is desired and, unfortunately, many of them are towards the autumn years of their career, and it would be good to have people of strong standing in diverse communities across our districts and regions in this country to put themselves forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ESo, on behalf of everyone here, I think it\u2019s fair to say that if you\u2019re listening and you\u2019re interested, contact your local MP, have a yarn about it, and then we can go through that process of putting your name forward, because those that I have spoken to get a lot out of it. They aren\u2019t included in this bill. They do it voluntarily, and I think we all come from regions and communities that are reliant on the generosity of others. I think it\u2019s only appropriate to acknowledge them tonight, given that I think they fall into this category. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EUltimately, this bill is based on a very simple principle, and I think that whilst it might seem insignificant, it will only increase New Zealand\u2019s standing when compared to overseas countries and other countries that we compare ourselves to, particularly in the OECD. But, ultimately, we are bringing in a very simple provision that will maintain the integrity of the system. I\u2019d like to just finish by reiterating the point that I started on, which is that I think tonight will be something that, when I go and visit these groups in my electorate, I will refer to, because, yet again, it\u2019s actually all 120 members of this House coming together to support something. It could have come from any previous Government of any previous colour. It was identified, it was fixed, and good on everybody for getting behind it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u002218014a4682b7462399bce3381a061622\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218014a4682b7462399bce3381a061622\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E I rise in support of the Remuneration Authority Legislation Bill on behalf of the National Party. Fundamentally, this bill is a simple change which will give an added layer of political neutrality to the setting of fees for judicial officers. The Remuneration Authority is seen as the fair and independent body who should be tasked with determining remuneration for these judicial officers. Judicial independence from the Government is important as it enhances public confidence in the operation of the law. If a Government could negatively influence the salaries of judges, it could potentially use this to influence the decisions of judges in its own favour, so this bill is a good one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EIt is also an omnibus bill, as one of my colleagues mentioned earlier. That means that it amends more than one Act, and in this case it amends those Acts so that the Remuneration Authority can recognise the judicial nature of a number of positions and set their fees. Previously, those fees were set by the Cabinet Fees Framework, and they will now, under this bill, be set by the Remuneration Authority. Those positions which will now come under this Act will be the chairperson and deputy chairperson of the Human Rights Review Tribunal, community magistrates of the District Court, environment commissioners and deputy environment commissioners of the Environment Court, members and deputy chairs of the Immigration and Protection Tribunal, referees of the disputes tribunal, and tenancy adjudicators of the Tenancy Tribunal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u201CThe Remuneration Authority is an independent statutory body that determines the remuneration for judicial and statutory officers who need to have, and be seen to have, independence from the Government. For example, the Remuneration Authority determines the remuneration for Judges because Judges need to be, and to be seen to be, impartial, independent from Government, and free from political influence or interference in their decision making.\u201D This is crucial for our structure of governance and contributes to public trust and confidence in the judicial system. \u201CThe Remuneration Authority Act \u2026 prescribes the criteria the Remuneration Authority must consider in determining officers\u2019 remuneration. The criteria include the requirements of the position, relativity to the market, and fairness to those whose remuneration is being set and to the taxpayer. Determinations are made and reviewed on an annual basis. The Government has to implement the Remuneration Authority\u2019s determinations.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EBy way of context, \u201CThe Cabinet Fees Framework classifies judicial statutory officers into 4 broad categories for fee-setting purposes and prescribes a range of fees for each category that reflects the nature of [the] work, including the expertise required, the extent of their decision-making powers, and the impact of their decisions. The Minister or the fee sitting authority responsible for the officers makes the final decision on the fee to be paid to each type of officer within that fee range.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ETo speak to one of these authorities which I am quite familiar with, the community magistrates\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4ae05773eab4442b869c137386a653d\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019d you do?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220852c865a2d94090a2335e90008603c4\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014community magistrates sit in the District Court\u2014and the member opposite asked what did I do? Well, let me tell you what I did! Ha, ha! \u201CCommunity Magistrates sit in the District Court and hear matters that would otherwise come before a District Court Judge. Community Magistrates are required to have the personal qualities, experience, and skills needed to deal with lower-level criminal matters.\u201D Now, I cut my teeth as a lawyer in the Manukau District Court, spending about two years there\u2014the busiest court in the country\u2014and a lot of that I cut my teeth on, so to speak, was as a duty lawyer. When you have a huge volume of work coming through the court, a lot of it needs to go in front of the community magistrate because, frankly, the judges just don\u2019t have the capacity to deal with it. So you\u2019d actually have one lawyer who was on duty; they\u2019d have to sit in the court, and all the other duty lawyers would take instructions from the defendants, get the information from the police, information from the court, get instructions on what the defendant was going to do, and then give it to the person sitting in court. The job of the duty lawyer giving the information to the duty lawyer sitting in court was to make sure they had clear instructions and to write them out. Having said that, I spent many a long day in the Manukau District Court sitting in the chair and being given instructions, and sometimes instructions were better than others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EBut, look, the crucial work that the community magistrates did was seen on a daily basis. They would have to sentence people. They could sentence people to anything up to community detention; they could not sentence them to prison. However, they could and they did have to decide regularly on bail applications. It is and was a key part of the operation of the court. I also did a similar thing in the Auckland District Court, spending quite some time there as well, and the community magistrate also performed a key function in the operation of that court. I also saw and appeared in front of community magistrates representing defendants in the Tauranga District Court and, more recently, in the Invercargill and Queenstown District Courts. They perform an absolutely crucial function, and they cover work that the District Courts could not otherwise do because they just don\u2019t have the capacity in the number of judges available to do that work. I\u2019m very pleased to see them recognised in this bill before the House tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThe other bodies that we see recognised here\u2014also the disputes tribunal, which is a division of the District Court. \u201CIt considers disputes based on contract, quasi-contract, or tort involving destruction or loss of, or damage or injury to, property, and the recovery of property of up to $30,000. Referees are required to have appropriate qualifications, such as legal, mediation, or arbitration qualifications or training, as well as the personal attributes, knowledge, and experience needed for the role. Referees are required to try to mediate a settlement first. Where [that\u2019s] not possible, the Referee makes an order that is binding on the parties.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThe Environment Court is also included in this bill and \u201Clargely deals with appeals about the contents of regional and district plans and appeals arising out of applications for resource consents. Commissioners are appointed for their knowledge and experience in matters coming before the court, such as planning, resource management, and heritage protection. Environment Commissioners and Deputy Environment Commissioners sit in the Environment Court, hearing matters and making decisions either as a panel (with an Environment Court judge) or alone.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThe Immigration and Protection Tribunal, which also comes under this bill, \u201Chears appeals against decisions of the Minister of Immigration or Immigration New Zealand on residence class visas; deportation (including appeals on humanitarian grounds), and claims to be recognised as a refugee or protected person. The Minister of Immigration or Immigration New Zealand is a party to these appeals. The tribunal [must] be chaired by a District Court judge and the members are required to be legally qualified. As the tribunal chair is a District Court Judge, their remuneration is already set by the Remuneration Authority. [This] Bill transfers responsibility for determining the remuneration of the other tribunal members to the Remuneration Authority.\u201D I feel like I\u2019m saying \u201Cremuneration\u201D a lot tonight, testing one\u2019s ability to keep saying that word. It\u2019s a bit of a tongue twister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d1aa70ee11c412da8e258b3c397964f\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Say it again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223811c69643624e5a829807985e4c8c59\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY\u003C/span\u003E: Remuneration\u2014there you go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u201CThe Tenancy Tribunal hears disputes between landlords (including K\u0101inga Ora) and tenants of residential properties, and disputes relating to unit title developments such as apartment buildings. Tenancy Tribunal Adjudicators are required to either be legally qualified or [to] have the knowledge or experience needed for the role. The Residential Tenancies Amendment Act 2020 and the Residential Tenancies (Healthy Homes Standards) Regulations 2019 have significantly expanded the tribunal\u2019s role and responsibilities. For example, the monetary threshold of the Tenancy Tribunal for residential tenancy disputes has been doubled from $50,000 to $100,000. The tribunal can now impose pecuniary penalties of up to $50,000 on non-compliant landlords and can issue works orders to compel landlords comply with the Healthy Homes Standards. The chief executive of the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment can initiate proceedings against non-compliant landlords.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u201CThe Human Rights Review Tribunal hears claims relating to breaches of the Human Rights Act 1993, the Privacy Act 2020 and the Health and Disability Commissioner Act 1994. Each case is heard by the Chairperson or a Deputy Chairperson and 2 panel members. The Chairperson and Deputy Chairperson [is] required to be legally qualified. Panel members are expected to have [the] knowledge or experience of matters likely to come before the tribunal, including economic, employment, cultural, or social issues. The Chairperson or a Deputy Chairperson chairs the panel that considers each case and also writes the tribunal decision.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThis is a good bill, and I am pleased to speak in support of it tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022d0fb9c4165314b37a5a6b01552ca05be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d0fb9c4165314b37a5a6b01552ca05be\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker, and thank you. I rise to take what I understand is the final call on this particular reading. You know, we\u2019ve heard a lot about remuneration over the course of the evening and so I\u2019ll add to that chorus by indicating that I am delighted to support the Remuneration Authority Legislation Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ECan I acknowledge the member who\u2019s just resumed his seat, Joseph Mooney. He has shared with us his experience in a judicial sense, and I always think that when the House is considering legislation, it\u2019s important to reflect on one\u2019s own interactions and experience over time. So it was a very thoughtful and welcome contribution from the member who has just resumed his seat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThis bill, as I understand it, is an omnibus bill. That\u2019s another word that we seem to hear a lot of around the House, particularly in the last couple of weeks where there are pieces of legislation where we\u2019re trying to pick up a whole range of little bits and put them together. For those perhaps listening at home who don\u2019t know what an omnibus bill is, that\u2019s essentially what that is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe interesting thing to me is that when we look at the three branches of government, which are fundamental to our constitutional arrangements here in Aotearoa New Zealand, this bill actually targets a really important one, and that\u2019s the judicial branch of government. Because we have the other two, the legislative and the executive, and the importance is trying to ensure that there are checks and balances on each. This particular bill goes to the heart of that in assisting that there is that check and balance moving forward, because this bill does seek to recognise the judicial nature of the positions that many members in the House tonight have effectively touched on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWhen I look at this bill, what\u2019s really important is the sense of independence but also fundamentally the significance of integrity, because when we look at other judicial systems around the world, a lynch pin largely is around the integrity of the judicial system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1b10d4a062b448e986036329645e33b\u0022\u003EKieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ee1f14cfb494c9181516670caf7e5d5\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: It is right, Mr McAnulty. And that\u2019s why it\u2019s really important that while we have independence in terms of the individuals who are appointed to these roles, there is also integrity within the system that they are operating within.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s really important that not only independence but integrity assist in ensuring that the decisions that these individuals make certainly do have an impact on the ordinary lives of everyone in our community. And it\u2019s important that the way in which they are remunerated is independently assessed and that they are effectively remunerated for the services that they render largely on behalf of the community and the state in many particular circumstances as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWhen we look at the background to this bill, we know that this fell out of a review that was undertaken by MartinJenkins back in 2018. I have to say that I have actually read the MartinJenkins review report from 2017. I did it two years ago when I was a visiting Justice, and the fees that were set for visiting Justices in New Zealand was part of the MartinJenkins review. So I have some confidence in that review process, because it wasn\u2019t just a review that was undertaken and that\u2019s it; there was an opportunity for all of those statutory roles and office holders to feed into that process. So knowing that this was certainly a piece of work that was undertaken by MartinJenkins\u2014you know, it was 2018, but it has laid the foundation for this piece of legislation before the House this evening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWhat I would say is that the report itself was fairly lengthy, because it didn\u2019t just look at the positions that we are looking at tonight, but it had actually quite a broad range of statutory roles that the report looked into. And what we see in this bill are some of those where the report actually identified that there was justification for the shift away from the Cabinet Fees Framework to, effectively, placing those decisions around remuneration with the Remuneration Authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe review itself was one that was conducted on a principles basis, I guess, and that, I think, fundamentally is a good starting point\u2014that when you\u2019re looking at something that\u2019s meant to be independent, that has a sense of integrity, that it\u2019s aligned to one of the three branches of Government, and that at the same time the way in which that is approached is from a principled level. And so it\u2019s important that that not only lends itself to starting out in the right place, but actually the perception and appearance of things that would follow also drive home the importance and significance of that as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI want to turn now to the various positions that are captured or covered by this bill. Colleagues have referred to community magistrates, and I want to also support the fantastic job community magistrates do in districts and communities all around the country. In my own community of Palmerston North, we don\u2019t have any community magistrates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c415009814824b4a86034862c9e1923c\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t you?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e79c54008314edea41c421f3ff0b649\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: No we don\u2019t, and I\u2019ll tell you why we do not have those particular individuals. That is because we have hard-working judicial justices of the peace. Mr Simpson previously talked about 10,000 or so justices of the peace, there are about 320 of them who are judicial justices of the peace who are authorised by the Chief District Court Judge on an annual basis. They go through a process of appraisal and ensure that they, effectively, are tickety-boo and that\u2019s the basis on which they are able to discharge their duties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe difference between a judicial justice of the peace and a community magistrate is, essentially, as Mr Mooney has said, the level of cases that community magistrates can deal with. They can sit on their own, whereas judicial justices of the peace, they can sit on their own when considering bail applications, but they can only sit in pairs when considering most category 1 level of offences. So it\u2019s important that we do acknowledge the good work of community magistrates all around the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThere is one point that I also think is worth acknowledging in the bill tonight and that is that even though there would be an assessment of the level of remuneration undertaken by the Remuneration Authority, if that independent assessment turned out to indicate that, actually, the level was lower than the level that those individuals would attract at the moment, then there is provision for the level of remuneration to remain at the same level. So even though we have these hard-working judicial members, statutory officers, in these roles up and down the country, by virtue of the fact that their pay or remuneration is assessed in a different way by a different entity and they would get less than that, by no means should that mean they should receive the pay cut. So that\u2019s an important part of the legislation to see.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI think this is a wonderful piece of legislation. I reflect on the contribution from all members of the House and I\u2019m happy to commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002254b243f49ef54eb69dd7583600c5be53\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002254b243f49ef54eb69dd7583600c5be53\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the Remuneration Authority Legislation Bill be considered by the Justice Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Justice Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022bbeea7ab120d4db182fb7fdd3e2fdc7d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bbeea7ab120d4db182fb7fdd3e2fdc7d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House stands adjourned until 2 p.m. tomorrow. Good evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 9.58 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202110263c49c6b4dca6451f90178a47be8f7b59000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"