"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221b3b19437a6e46879122be40e17d0bbe\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 16 NOVEMBER 2021\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022226ee72920414eebbe1ece7a52cc1788\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 16 NOVEMBER 2021\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002249b78ea990104133b881041a09602b72\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002243523edb4f4d48ae801f7adabdcdfe39\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000005\u0022\u003EADRIAN RURAWHE (Deputy Speaker): Kia tau an\u014D te rangim\u0101rie ki a t\u0101tou. Kia inoi t\u0101tou. E te Atua kaha rawa, ka tuku whakamoemiti atu m\u0101tou, m\u014D ng\u0101 karakia kua waihotia mai ki runga i a m\u0101tou. Ka waiho i \u014D m\u0101tou p\u0101nga whaiaro katoa ki te taha. Ka mihi m\u0101tou ki te Ku\u012Bni, me te inoi atu m\u014D te \u0101rahitanga i roto i \u014D m\u0101tou whakaaroarohanga, kia m\u014Dhio ai, kia whakaiti ai t\u0101 m\u0101tou whakahaere i ng\u0101 take o te Whare nei, m\u014D te oranga, te maung\u0101rongo, me te aroha o Aotearoa. Amene.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000007\u0022\u003E[Allow peace to prevail over us once again. Let us pray. Almighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the Queen, and pray for guidance in our deliberations, that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom and humility, for the welfare, peace, and compassion of New Zealand. Amen.]\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022484c94e086fe4c7c9c7dc79dd926c7d9\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b21ebf061bf744fa942922949ac25c74\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022a051648b1a9346eeabe3dcba72355ded\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a051648b1a9346eeabe3dcba72355ded\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No petitions have been presented. No bills have been introduced. Ministers have delivered papers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u002288d966e49fe54aa0801decbe4631a1fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288d966e49fe54aa0801decbe4631a1fb\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2020-21 annual reports of Callaghan Innovation, New Zealand Capital Growth Partners, and Mercury NZ Limited\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2021-25 statement of intent for the Inland Revenue Department\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EGovernment response to the interim report of the Regulations Review Committee on a complaint about the Education (Early Childhood Services) Regulations 2008.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022abdc9a620d764cfbbd538a2fb2f5fbc4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022abdc9a620d764cfbbd538a2fb2f5fbc4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those papers are published under the authority of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003ESelect committee reports have been delivered for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8bbd2ee5bec49db9d38beb7ea030dc3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8bbd2ee5bec49db9d38beb7ea030dc3\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReports of the Petitions Committee on the petitions of Degu Geddebo, Joanna Spratt, New Zealand Taxpayers\u2019 Union, Patrick Dingemans, and Paul Jackson\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReport of the Primary Production Committee on the petition of Jen Hyde\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReport of the Regulations Review Committee on the examination of COVID-19 orders presented between 21 and 28 October 2021\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReport of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee on the report of the Controller and Auditor-General, New Zealand Transport Agency: Maintaining state highways through Network Outcomes Contracts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3adbe5821394d0eb9718b2a75b90f10\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3adbe5821394d0eb9718b2a75b90f10\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The COVID-19 orders and the report of the Controller and Auditor-General are set down for consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002275d806428b2f4603a0d58dbe43442e9a\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f535f59f39744e41bd749d1ef3617ec0\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229b4c7167fc5c4073833e4101daf78e71\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00229b8ee6d25ac24cca9284e1470b8cc2b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b8ee6d25ac24cca9284e1470b8cc2b1\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports has he seen on the New Zealand economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022d646f77340434d228e2976c65a28a2a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d646f77340434d228e2976c65a28a2a0\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Westpac bank\u2019s latest quarterly economic review has reported that the economy has remained resilient in the face of the current Delta outbreak and is well placed for our recovery in 2022. The report stated that employment levels rose 2 percent and unemployment fell to a record low\u20143.4 percent in the September quarter when the country was at the highest alert levels. Household demand remained firm while businesses had adapted to the outbreak and were pushing on with their investment and hiring plans. Looking ahead, Westpac expects unemployment to remain low, and economic activity will rise back to firm levels. It\u2019s forecasting solid average annual GDP growth of 4.6 percent in 2022. None the less, while the economy is performing strongly, the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic means no one can be complacent. We\u2019re working closely with business as we transition to the next stage of responding to COVID.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cebdc23b6c124242ae8b5afff0910035\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the member, I want to remind members in the gallery that the rules as far as slogans and boxes apply the same way there as they do here. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e473b153877e40649460e89656c21a02\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: What other reports has he seen on the economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202c42f9652ac49e7a44910a4ff1dc80e\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the first set of Crown accounts for the new financial year showed the continued strength of the New Zealand economy, despite the challenges of COVID-19. The result of the stronger starting position for the economy before the outbreak meant that core Crown tax revenue for the three months to the end of September 2021 was $2.3 billion above Budget 2021 forecasts, coming in at $24 billion. GST revenue was $184 million above forecast, owing to stronger than expected consumer demand. Overall, the operating balance before gains and losses was a deficit of $5.4 billion, $0.8 billion higher than forecast. This was a result of the Delta outbreak, which triggered a shift in alert level restrictions and, therefore, the payment of Government support to businesses and workers in order to protect jobs and livelihoods. It\u2019s worth noting that net core Crown debt was 33 percent of GDP, which was lower than the 36.2\u00A0percent forecast by the Treasury, and significantly below most countries we compare ourselves with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224883d719ae8c48fc81ee2bc113cfa1be\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: What constraints is the pandemic placing on the economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022808d1dc8978c4276a73e63aa7eec5a39\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The economy\u2019s performance has exceeded the expectation of most economists and commentators. This has been reflected, as I say, in the Crown accounts, which do give us more options to respond to the ongoing effects of the pandemic. But this remains a happening in a challenging environment. The recovery is uneven for some sectors and regions, while the pandemic continues to disrupt global supply chains, which is affecting the New Zealand economy. Key Government actions to reduce the impact of the supply chain disruption is being led by the Ministry of Transport with an inter-agency forum, where we are working with both importers and exporters. But there is no quick fix to these global issues. The Government will continue to take a balanced approach and invest in supporting the recovery and meeting other challenges while carefully managing our resources.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226bdabb947fab41d0908c24026db6ebcb\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022080b12302b564974ad671d7e3fb292d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022080b12302b564974ad671d7e3fb292d0\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all of her Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u002204df734d69fa4592b4b67ea6d6f84c0a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204df734d69fa4592b4b67ea6d6f84c0a\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. I especially stand by the Government\u2019s decision to make booster doses of the Pfizer vaccine available to all New Zealanders 18 years or older who have completed their two-dose course more than six months ago. This announcement follows approval by Medsafe and will ensure the best protection possible for those who have received their earlier doses here in New Zealand or abroad. Unlike other countries, boosters will be available for all who qualify from later this month. I observe that in many countries in Europe, some have only just started their booster campaigns, and many are limiting who are able to access boosters. We expect around 450,000 people will be eligible for their booster shot before the end of the year. You\u2019ll be able to make your booking on bookmyvaccine.nz from 26 November.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2bfdb6bc50541b5aa986c5bfadbdde0\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Why is she waiting until tomorrow to tell Aucklanders suffering through 13 weeks of lockdown what the rules will be for travelling this summer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fc012b6458d4f878fd69c07f4c7949f\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Simply because, as the member will remember, not every decision that\u2019s made by Cabinet is then announced within half an hour of the decision. This is a particular decision that does have operational impacts. Once Cabinet made that decision, it\u2019s only natural, of course, that we would want to ensure that agencies were aware of it before it was publicly announced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227828ae2a8b63462d9e763261ab7506a6\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Does she expect the rules to change between yesterday, when Cabinet discussed and decided them, and tomorrow, when she plans to announce them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba93baf9af2349e8b0e4551bd8195f05\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: No, but nor is that the reason; I\u2019ve just already given the member the rationale. I would also highlight for the member that there are many decisions that we make that we do share immediately. Of course, alert level decisions, for instance, are discussed at Cabinet at 1 o\u2019clock and then shared at 4 o\u2019clock. This is, however, a decision where we did want to make sure that we had awareness across agencies and those affected by the decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bde89b5d73f440de959b2392053cbf08\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: How can there be operational implications requiring awareness by agencies when all she proposes to do is announce a date which is, presumably, several weeks away?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac31ec7de29e465eb2c614c6ef80fce4\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, without going into some of the detail, it will not just be a date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee3bc10547e742faab713e7abd531bb3\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Why didn\u2019t the Government work out a plan for regional travel in the 18 months before this outbreak?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228da6806d8f964ab896e1d7b34e010e36\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: As the member will be aware, there have been a number of occasions where we have had to operate land boundaries; we have done so and then, of course, following elimination, they\u2019ve been able to be lifted. Delta, for every country around the world, has been an absolute game-changer. It did not even exist 18 months ago. In fact, I would point out to the member that many of the countries\u2019 experiences that they are having now\u2014with the likes of the Netherlands and Austria, despite high vaccine rates\u2014having to re-impose restrictions, is because Delta is behaving very differently than, for instance, Alpha. If we were still in that phase of the pandemic, we wouldn\u2019t be having many of these conversations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022629d235c9cf34a079b2bdd46874eaf8d\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: So does she stand by her statement yesterday that the traffic light system \u201Cprovides greater protection for New Zealanders than we see with the current alert level system.\u201D; if so, why haven\u2019t we moved to it already?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a999701077f04243ac0038f7af972286\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, when coupled with good vaccination rates. At the time that we announced that framework, the vaccination rates simply weren\u2019t high enough to be able to move into it\u2014particularly, it also would have had equity issues. We, of course, in that framework do require the use of vaccine passes to ensure that you\u2019re able to operate at a reasonable level; having a reasonable number of people vaccinated is also required. I would also point out it would not have been safe, at that point, to transition to the framework in Auckland with the outbreak the way it was, with the vaccination levels at that rate. It does require decent vaccine levels.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283723ec5fee149a8979b7416e1569bcb\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: So whose fault is it that 20 percent of New Zealanders were double-vaccinated when the latest lockdown occurred?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe7bec8d0a6544408a6a2d427d8fa8d2\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Unlike that member, I\u2019ve never been in the practice of blaming the existence of COVID-19 on anyone. Every single country around the world has had to take on this challenge. And do you know what? As a Government, the fact that we have one of the lowest mortality rates in the world, one of the most successful in terms of the recovery of our economy, the lowest unemployment rates; growth in GDP, and some of the lowest case rates around the world\u2014as a Government, we acknowledge the hurt that many people have experienced, but relative to other countries, it has been far, far less. I think history will tell the story of the team of 5 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d3c748b791c4b56844703d49d9ff837\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. My question was very clearly who is at fault.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227a58b4a04a647fd961d2a4637350d28\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! That was answered in the first part of the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d298b8bf628a4ef7bf9789bb97971741\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Why are thousands of people allowed to go shopping at Sylvia Park in Auckland, but an Auckland restaurant cannot serve people in their outside dining area?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3117f6c1f324d829f820d532ce1a26d\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Taken across, as a whole, the profile of hospitality is just different to retail, and that has been recognised throughout this pandemic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c311e9329ca146d2af5d1e252210eb33\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! The Leader of the Opposition asked a question. Her own team should not be shouting down the answer, if, in fact, it was a serious question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241071fa3dc424e88b7cff6ff79c26b36\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: You will not find a country around the world that I can think of, that in the way that they have worked with hospitality, have treated hospitality and retail the same. In that vein, there are some countries who have only recently allowed their hospitality services to reopen fully since February 2020. We\u2019ve been in a vastly different set of circumstances. Yes, they have been at the front line of restrictions, but when we move in to the new protection framework, that is when the industry will have greater certainty, and that will be part of our progress in our response to COVID.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f96d0612f1a34d8aab2cd265a4416183\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I waited until the end of the Prime Minister\u2019s answer to point out that the interjections by my colleagues, which I would consider to be rare and reasonable in the circumstances, were not a reflection of the quality of the question but of the quality of the answer. If you are suggesting now that those rare and reasonable interjections, and from time to time, some levity, cannot be part of the exchange in oral question time, I think that would be a shame.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254f86bf621504342a419f8ce92e8e4b5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I totally agree with member if they were rare. They weren\u2019t rare; there was a barrage from at least 15 members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022031d89f8f8ca4949afd9171b6edc796e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Research, Science, and Innovation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022 data-id=\u0022512f41c1150c419ba717dda2ddaa9968\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022512f41c1150c419ba717dda2ddaa9968\u0022\u003ENAISI CHEN (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Research, Science and Innovation: How is the Government backing high pay-off, innovative research projects, including those that support the fight against COVID-19 and climate change?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9b66e55c16e42cca86c42f03f24b3b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9b66e55c16e42cca86c42f03f24b3b3\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Research, Science and Innovation):\u003C/span\u003E Science and innovation are primary tools in helping Aotearoa address significant challenges like COVID-19 and climate change. I recently announced that through the Marsden Fund, we\u2019re investing more than $82 million over the next three years across 120 projects. This includes opportunities for funding pioneering blue-sky research to create new knowledge as well as applied science to support the transition to a low-emissions and climate resilient economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cf7355285774df8a89a3f54b31bd3be\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call a member, I just want to indicate to members who have been away for a while that you don\u2019t need to put your mask on in between your supplementaries and the main question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4567f61af93432b95b2afa56d4a32b7\u0022\u003ENaisi Chen\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. How will the research funded through this Marsden Fund round underpin New Zealand\u2019s climate change response and understanding?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e01aacc96eb415aafa7d66b7b4891ef\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is committed to addressing the challenges created by climate change and transitioning to a low-carbon future. Through the Marsden Fund, we\u2019re investing in a range of projects to help us understand and respond to the effects of climate change. Climate change projects include how the Antarctic ice sheets will respond and the effects on our oceans; research into how our oceans behave, including carbon sink areas that could have implications for global carbon budgets; and research into the behaviour and implications of micro-plastics in our environment. The researchers carrying out these projects will drive New Zealand\u2019s ambitions in pioneering world-leading research.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229446119477bf46fa95a1e9d0f07a2371\u0022\u003ENaisi Chen\u003C/span\u003E: How will this Government\u2019s investment into science support the Government\u2019s COVID-19 response efforts and ongoing health response?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6a40acfaa8648459d49cd9abe9bc1b7\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Science has always been at the heart of the Government\u2019s response to COVID-19. Projects funded through the Marsden Fund include supporting research into the impact of the last 18 months on our rangatahi as they moved into an online learning environment and understanding why people change their beliefs. We\u2019ve also invested $33 million through the COVID-19 Innovation Acceleration Fund to support innovative research projects and technology that mitigate the impact or prevent the spread of COVID-19. These included epidemiological modelling, genomic sequencing, and detection of COVID-19 in waste water, which has underpinned New Zealand\u2019s ability to respond to COVID-19 and contain the virus. I want to congratulate and thank everyone involved for their impactful work that will benefit this country\u2019s long-term future and transform people\u2019s lives for the better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229bb19ca0f0d04d65afbecd00bfb004d7\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u002247dbd2ce87c946c29f1757c993d8028e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247dbd2ce87c946c29f1757c993d8028e\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all of her Government\u2019s statements and policies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u00228c3699dd107545108868f0cfa5853d89\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c3699dd107545108868f0cfa5853d89\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. In particular, I stand by the actions of this Government that have seen the gender pay gap drop to its lowest level, at 8.6 percent. This is the direct result of many efforts made. We\u2019re also seeing the unemployment rate for women dropping to 3.4 percent\u2014the lowest in over a decade\u2014and the under-utilisation rate for women drop to an equally historical low of 10.9 percent. We know more needs to be done. We\u2019ve got further work to go on reducing the pay gap for M\u0101ori, Pacific, and Asian workforces, but this demonstrates that reducing the gender pay gap is possible with concerted effort and with the Government, public services, and unions working together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbd3244d15154cf5965fe89c7da621ff\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Why does she believe those employment statistics when unemployment keeps going down at the same time that the number of people on the job seeker benefit and the amount spent on welfare keeps going up?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a274d61c34ef4026811d1f0a34d53e1a\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Actually, we have seen declines across job seeker relative to early on, particularly in the COVID-19 pandemic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227783d87dc06347d4a626d34d93730a40\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does she believe her Government implements its policies competently, and, if so, why is it now using debt collectors to recover up to $36 million worth of managed isolation and quarantine (MIQ) fees it didn\u2019t collect when the guests stayed\u2014something that every private sector hotel in the world somehow manages?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221476d682518d4a739004f902e8f5f849\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I would refer the member to the fact that\u2014if I recall correctly\u2014we\u2019ve had something in the order of $99 million worth of MIQ costs paid by individuals who have come through the system. Over the course of the programme, we have altered the invoicing system to ensure that we obtain greater efficiencies around it, but it\u2019s not unfair to have an expectation that people pay the bill that they were fairly issued as part of our border protection framework.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bb6b58377904e3cacf0420f3a562120\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Which of her statements more accurately describes the Government\u2019s policy for vaccination targets: is it her own 14 September statement that \u201Cwe\u2019ve not given a specific number\u201D, or her 22 October statement that we\u2019d need a \u201C90\u00A0percent fully vaccinated [target set] across each DHB region\u201D before the rest of the country moves into the new traffic light system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4302e0242c14a56ab7797a6b2173a16\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, the member well knows that we\u2019ve said all along that we want the highest rates of vaccine in New Zealand possible\u2014the highest rates. In fact, Dr Bloomfield himself has continually talked about milestones. There will never be an endpoint for us so long as there are individuals in New Zealand who are eligible to be vaccinated who are not vaccinated. Every single percentage is an extra layer of protection for the country, and I would hope that we can all agree on that. The member has asked a question around when we would alter our COVID strategy as a result of vaccines. Yes, we\u2019ve given an indication that the COVID protection framework\u2014indicatively, we\u2019d want high vaccination levels in order to move into it. We\u2019ve got a decision-making day with Cabinet on 29 November, and we have indicated that we will be pragmatic around some of those calls relative to our vaccination levels.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f58b0784b46a49b8bf9c9e58ac5fdd5d\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does she stand by her statement that \u201CThere\u2019s a strong view coming through from the Ministry of Health that we should consider moving to the protection framework, or traffic light system, earlier because it provides greater protection.\u201D, and if she does stand by that statement, at what level of vaccination is the traffic light system safer than the alert level system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d67bbe42b0d4dd193a42c5d2bc733f0\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do stand by that statement and\u2014as I said in an earlier response to the Leader of the Opposition\u2014it does require, though, of course, it to be coupled with high rates of vaccination. Ultimately, though, the higher the rate, the greater protection we have as a whole. The COVID protection framework then uses that layer of protection via vaccine passes. There is a balance to be struck in there, though. You do want to make sure that you\u2019ve got enough people who are vaccinated to fairly and equitably still be accessing parts of the sector who will be relying on vaccine passes to operate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200e8e9aa28324156b277b7599a7c3e97\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: So at what rate of vaccination does it become true that the traffic light system offers more protection than the alert level system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f257bbfb56724d1b9c04623750eb59c1\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: The traffic light system offers protection by ensuring that only vaccinated individuals are accessing certain facilities. If you do not have COVID in your community, then, actually, that becomes a moot point, but we are starting to see COVID cases that need to be managed and that we need to protect people from. The COVID protection framework allows you to do that without having to have people in level 3 restrictions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022176bcaef3c40447ea47bcbb677d3adc7\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: So at what rate does the traffic light system offer more protection than the alert level system, and does she understand that New Zealanders would really like to know that because it would explain when a move might be safe to make, or is it actually the case that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c056ee759ce04a0f9b76643f6a021b54\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! The member\u2019s had two legs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf1ab928335f4c8d9314f65395aba4ed\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve already responded to the question. The COVID protection framework cannot operate unless you have vaccinated individuals in the community. That is why, on the advice of experts\u2014they\u2019ve said the higher the rate, the better the protection. They have said that a target of preference of 90 percent\u2014we\u2019ve said that on 29 November, we\u2019ll assess our rates at that point and make decisions about the movement into the framework.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e8366b03047406e8a1b866fb3f4607f\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Is not the real problem that the law and the software for the COVID protection framework are not ready yet, and the vaccination rates are not the problem; she\u2019s just buying time for the software\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f27e1a8636ca4524948ba4f281471cc7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! The member will resume his seat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e30fe83ed35e4e768681104a8ff0e20e\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely not. In fact, one of the concerns\u2014until you have high vaccination rates, if you choose to no longer use some of the blanket restrictions we\u2019ve had available to us, there is concern of course that outbreaks, both because you don\u2019t have high enough vaccination rates and because you aren\u2019t using widespread restrictions, get out of control. That is why you have to have both good vaccination rates and a framework that utilises those vaccination rates to maximise the safety for the whole population. I\u2019m happy to have the member receive a personal briefing on some of the decisions that have been made to date on the COVID protection framework if he so chooses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c5217d322a64aa4919fa55c7e477f88\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Well, thank you for that offer. Does the Prime Minister agree with the statement \u201CClimate change is my generation\u2019s nuclear-free moment.\u201D, and does she stand by her Government\u2019s policies where New Zealanders face higher electricity prices, rising carbon emissions, and record imports of Indonesian coal, or was the nuclear-free moment always meant to be coal-powered?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022833942ae555e4318b54ce568b7d33d06\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Before the Prime Minister answers, I am going to remind members in the gallery that their interjections count in the same way as those on the floor do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6d916e29fde47cba6f64ae4d3f673ed\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do, and the point I\u2019d make to the member is that without considerable investment\u2014for instance, if we continue to simply rely on the 80plus percent of renewable electricity generation we have today and do nothing about the fact that we have no renewable solution for when we have a dry year\u2014then, yes, we will continue to be relying on fossil fuels, which is why we\u2019ve made investments to try and overcome that issue, alongside the work that we\u2019re doing with the private sector to decarbonise energy generation in those fossil fuel - dependent industries. I note that the member would choose to do nothing in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225471efa84be8412ca6e7c7ec55e22c38\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u0022821758432a714ca8ac12909ef4ed2d9d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022821758432a714ca8ac12909ef4ed2d9d\u0022\u003EDr SHANE RETI (Deputy Leader\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Does he stand by his September statement, \u201CThe reality is we have available at the moment roughly 325 ICU or ICU capable beds\u201D; if so, how does he reconcile that answer with his response to written question No. 50686 that \u201Cthere are 284 resourced ICU/high dependency unit beds\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022dfb0224915ca4d8c908dc929ce99976b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dfb0224915ca4d8c908dc929ce99976b\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, and officials advised recently that they have changed the basis on which they calculate ICU and ICU-capable beds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a39fee46e4354924a9fd10e1e49267f0\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree that it is resourced ICU beds that are important and that ICU nurses are a limiting factor?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296da05b395fe4d46b6555efe25779c94\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s important is for people to know that, if they require intensive care because of COVID, in our public hospital system, they will get that care, and the care that is required means a bed, means a ventilator\u2014if that is necessary\u2014and it means staff who are capable of providing that care, and we will have that care in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f24b10c39754119a29f31ecc0b2472d\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: How, then, does he reconcile his claim that we can add 225 surge ICU beds if needed with Friday\u2019s peer-reviewed editorial in the New Zealand Medical Journal, which found New Zealand only has enough ICU nurses to add 67 ICU beds, not the 225 he is claiming?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb6d5239937d4e27a7380cda9828c652\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, very easily. We have a number of beds that are in designated ICU wards in our hospitals around the country, and then we have a number of other beds in other parts of hospitals\u2014for example, in post-operative recovery and in other areas. And, then, with the additional training that has been given to nursing staff and others, and with the additional ventilators that are available, officials advise that we can provide surge capacity for that additional care if we need it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276caaf732afe41e5a24df30f48f294fa\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: So are the three ICU specialists who wrote in the New Zealand Medical Journal wrong?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294dad65fe7184ef39c0f71e0d545e45d\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: I go on the advice of Ministry of Health officials\u2014which includes the Chief Medical Officer, who himself is a senior surgeon from Counties Manukau Health\u2014and a range of other specialists and experts, who put that advice together, who are very careful about making sure that the facilities we have available in the New Zealand public hospital network are capable of providing the care that is needed, particularly in the face of the pandemic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f991ff8255e4b3fbc9aef634ea4e217\u0022\u003EHon Todd McClay\u003C/span\u003E: Why are there only four resourced ICU beds in the whole of the Lakes DHB area, with either three or all four beds in use for 60 percent of the last two months, and will he give an absolute assurance to the people of Rotorua and Taup\u014D that no one who needs a resourced ICU bed will miss out?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022225d48d3f120491f9d2297b6a290fe46\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: The answer to that question is very simple, and that\u2019s the \u201Cgraph of shame\u201D. [Holds up graph] If you want to have a look at the history of investment in public health facilities over the last 14 years, the nine years of short, stubby blue bars is the National Party, and the tall handsome red ones are the Labour Party. The reality is that the Labour Government, in four years, has invested six times as much in public health facilities than the nine years of the previous National Government. What I can reassure that member, because of his failure to speak up for his own constituents in the time that his party was in Government, is that we will have the care available for people who require hospital-level care as a result of the pandemic. And, if it\u2019s not in their local hospital, it will be because the response that we are putting in place is organised on a regional hospital basis, and they will get that care in the public hospital system that they need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f61b8204fa9c46f68cb480252ffb60e1\u0022\u003EHon Todd McClay\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2dea615b1234056842f915ec6d05ecf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to warn the member: if he complains about the answer\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202f4d2a0f2b743108997e39d25f7c91d\u0022\u003EHon Todd McClay\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019m not complaining about the answer, and you\u2019ll be able to judge when I finish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c6f2a8e599d40b284541065630f520a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I can\u2019t imagine what another point of order would be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b18c175530bc4d8192674a14ad551fa4\u0022\u003EHon Todd McClay\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s the great thing about points of order; one doesn\u2019t have to imagine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226767\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0c6ac16aee44acabb5ac7ef5d62aa2f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0c6ac16aee44acabb5ac7ef5d62aa2f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: All right. The member will have a go, and if it\u2019s disorderly, he\u2019ll go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022534b25f9417b4b07a1d61c55117e978e\u0022\u003EHon Todd McClay\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Mr Speaker, there was so much noise I couldn\u2019t hear the Minister\u2014whether he confirmed there were only four beds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226767\u0022 data-id=\u0022ecfa44d905c04d11add239f4a13367ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ecfa44d905c04d11add239f4a13367ca\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s exactly the point I made to the member. It was a complaint about not being able to hear it. The member will leave the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226767\u0022\u003EHon Todd McClay withdrew from the Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c58720ac33344b75b6e257eeeb07356a\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014COVID-19 Response\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3ab905f5276475eaff2397cae45b02c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3ab905f5276475eaff2397cae45b02c\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour\u2014Upper Harbour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for COVID19 Response: What recent announcements have been made on New Zealand\u2019s COVID-19 vaccine immunisation programme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00228649ce35ebfc47f497bc1065456d7651\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228649ce35ebfc47f497bc1065456d7651\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister for COVID-19 Response):\u003C/span\u003E Following Medsafe\u2019s approval of the Pfizer vaccine as a booster, the Government announced yesterday that we\u2019ll roll out a booster vaccination programme and that doses will be available from 29\u00A0November. The Pfizer vaccine will be used for boosters, regardless of which vaccine was used for earlier doses. It\u2019s the same Pfizer vaccine that\u2019s been used for the first and second doses for most New Zealanders through our vaccination roll-out. Vaccination is the best protection against COVID-19. People will be able to access boosters in New Zealand, whether they received their earlier doses here or overseas. With our eligible population now at 90 percent for first doses, and 81 percent fully vaccinated, we\u2019re now amongst one of the most vaccinated countries in the world, and we can continue to keep ahead of the pack by rolling out boosters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288b0b086883d45a68f89ead87097dac6\u0022\u003EVanushi Walters\u003C/span\u003E: What criteria, if any, will there be to obtain a booster shot, and what does this mean for people who have had two doses?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3e7e9734f334236b67b7599c1d0d0a4\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I would note that most other countries are rationing booster doses to certain segments of their population. We\u2019ve made the decision to make boosters available to everybody six months after their primary vaccine course was finished. Accordingly, most of this roll-out will happen naturally in 2020. That ensures simplicity and it also helps to ensure equity. Our focus will be on encouraging the most at risk of COVID, including our health workers, our border workers, and our M\u0101ori and Pacific communities. We\u2019ll also be making sure older people and our kaum\u0101tua, including people in aged residential care, have good access to booster doses when they become available. People don\u2019t necessarily need to rush to get this done. If you\u2019ve been vaccinated, you\u2019re still very well protected from infection and from becoming seriously ill if you were to get COVID-19\u2014Pfizer protection, for example, ranges from 85 to 93 percent in its effectiveness against severe disease, for hospitalisation it\u2019s is 80 percent - plus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efb1f8b0e58542c3a6bc98007572af03\u0022\u003EVanushi Walters\u003C/span\u003E: How many people will be eligible for a booster shot this year, and do we have sufficient stock to accommodate all eligible New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6f988421dc64201b4244760588ae125\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: There are currently 144,000 people in New Zealand who\u2019ve been vaccinated for six months or more. By the end of the year, we expect that to increase to 455,847 people. We\u2019ve got heaps of vaccines available to support the booster shots for eligible New Zealanders, and, of course, we\u2019ve ordered an extra 4.7 million doses of the Pfizer vaccine for 2022. I\u2019m also pleased to say that we have recently approved the use of AstraZeneca for those who are unable to get the Pfizer vaccine. We\u2019ve got enough supply, as well, to ensure that if future eligibility extends to five- to 11-year-olds, or we have a surge in people getting vaccinated through the booster programme, we\u2019ll be able to meet that demand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225737f9ed42af45c68d8d07781f6b6dd1\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022b5f45461810d41428af2dc33d742051f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b5f45461810d41428af2dc33d742051f\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Have wages kept up with inflation in New Zealand over the last 12 months; if not, does this mean New Zealand households are worse off than they were 12 months ago?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00224e580c42c66a46aa94073e25847ed3cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e580c42c66a46aa94073e25847ed3cc\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E The member knows that across the world we are seeing higher rates of inflation, and New Zealand is not immune from that. We can see this in the 4.6 percent average rate of inflation across OECD countries for the year to October 2021. Though inflation has risen above the rate of hourly earnings increases as a result of the recent quarterly data, over a longer period of time real wage growth has been strong. Since 2018, wages have risen by 3.5 percent on average annually, while inflation has risen by 2 percent annually over the same period, and, as recently as the second quarter of this year, wages had been rising ahead of inflation. In answer to the second part of the question, this is not necessarily the case. For example, approximately 116,000 more people are employed than 12 months ago, and 37,000 fewer people are working less hours than they would like to. The Government has also announced an historic investment in our welfare system, which builds on earlier measures, such as the Families Package and the indexation of benefit levels to wages. I do acknowledge that the rising cost of items such as petrol and food places a strain on household budgets. However, the Government\u2019s approach of supporting employment through COVID-19 and improving the adequacy of income support has put many households in a better position to manage these increases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022717ca094bb004e398ce53ecb13827743\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Can he confirm that with inflation at nearly 5 percent, it is over double the increase in wages and salaries, which means New Zealand households are materially worse off?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279510f283d184ca4858e345a5ca83bb9\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: What I can confirm is annual wage growth, using the average hourly earnings measure, was 3.5 percent in the most recent data, compared to 4.9 percent for inflation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a01af35b2ec43f4b284b046f18f3369\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: How does he expect a family to afford fruit and veggies when prices have risen just under 10 percent in the year to September, the largest increase since this index was measured?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022281350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b41a99255da4bde9a115bb8b330d3fb\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: As I said in my primary answer, the cost of food is something that places a strain on household budgets. It\u2019s one of the reasons that we focused on making sure we lift the incomes of low-income New Zealanders. I welcome this change of heart from the National Party to support benefit increases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be5ae25ce015413aa8f4b106626d3ba4\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: How does a young student or pensioner on a fixed income afford to pay their rent for new tenancies\u2014new tenancies\u2014that have increased by almost 8 percent in the year to September?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219a25ce11cc24d309c0ad6d7f9d7ca0a\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The member is using the flow measure, as he notes, of rental prices\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275ab864f1c5b4c8eac387eb8a418db05\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: And are you going to use the stock? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228479d22f645742ca878af50e3c9e667a\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s reading my mind. But, actually, I\u2019m not. What I\u2019m going to tell him is that while it was 7.8 percent in September, it was 5.8 percent in October. It shows the volatility of that particular measure. He is better off using the stock measure, which was an increase of 3.3 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a119d568152b4fb38f693ae3ad046d9e\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Has he seen any opposition to measures that are designed to increase household incomes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff7d7c2c9698402991c290b69379a941\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Sadly, I have seen opposition to measures such as increasing the rates of benefit, or, indeed, increasing the minimum wage on a regular basis to support low-income New Zealanders, but consistency is not something I\u2019m looking for across the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270efa3d1fbd942f9b85b9ab9fc6be613\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: What does he say to Aucklanders who have spent 91 days in lockdown, who are facing rapidly increasing costs of living, making it much more difficult to put food on the table and to buy presents for Christmas?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228074ce4a165e4e40864b53bac26a1565\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: What I say to Aucklanders is what I\u2019ve said several times in this House\u2014that I thank them for the sacrifices that they have made on behalf of New Zealanders to make sure that we can get through this pandemic, and I also say to them that they can rely on the Government to stick to the plan we\u2019ve got, which has led to us having one of the lowest mortality rates in the world, and an economic recovery better than many other countries in the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221cce7bbfacc84d01b48ddb530feef125\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Police\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u00224c5e2c386daa444aa227c631b83e0ff9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c5e2c386daa444aa227c631b83e0ff9\u0022\u003EGINNY ANDERSEN (Labour\u2014Hutt South)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: What recent reports has she seen regarding Police\u2019s efforts to disrupt organised crime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5e3278da5d049ab8ad494727c4ffcd9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5e3278da5d049ab8ad494727c4ffcd9\u0022\u003EHon POTO WILLIAMS (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ve seen reports that Police Operation Mist has resulted in the seizure of more than 50 kilograms of cocaine; nine individuals arrested; and $300,000 in cash, cocaine, and cryptocurrency wallets seized. Operation Mist has delivered a massive blow to an organised crime syndicate who Police believe to be one of the major suppliers of cocaine into New Zealand. Based on waste-water data, Police believe this group were supplying the majority of cocaine into New Zealand. The success of this operation is testament to the hard work of police officers and the relationships they have built with their international colleagues, including the United States Drug Enforcement Administration, Colombian national police, the Spanish customs service, and the Cook Islands customs service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ea4776bc90846c3b76c54d7d0381026\u0022\u003EGinny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: What other recent actions have Police taken to disrupt organised crime and the illicit drug trade?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf4d901c287c499abda18a35e963c466\u0022\u003EHon POTO WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve also seen reports that, as part of Operation Freya, Police and Customs have dismantled a sophisticated drug dealing and smuggling operation, making 12 arrests and seizing $8 million worth of drugs in the process. Together, these two operations have struck a major blow to organised crime and the supply of illicit drugs in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afe57d8bae654d6a998ea607c41aa6f7\u0022\u003EGinny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: How is the Government supporting Police in their efforts to disrupt organised crime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225270568999fa476285a1d01dca1ffe74\u0022\u003EHon POTO WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: This Government recognises the harm caused by gangs and organised crime in our community, and that\u2019s why we\u2019ve undertaken significant cross-Government work to respond to local, national, and transnational organised crime. We\u2019ve committed to amending the proceeds of crime legislation to ensure that those involved in organised crime would have to demonstrate their assets were obtained through legitimate means. If they can\u2019t, their assets will be seized. We\u2019re putting a record number of police on the front line with a specific focus on organised crime. This Government\u2019s record investment in Police will include 700 additional investigators. This operation highlights the excellent impact these officers can have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e3f972e0d35943e18709ca367398b350\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014COVID-19 Response\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022ccd737f5b560418ea6a2a1ecf9d9d7f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ccd737f5b560418ea6a2a1ecf9d9d7f5\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for COVID-19 Response: On what date did the Ministry of Health sign a contract with MATTR to develop a vaccination pass for domestic use, and is he satisfied with progress in the development of a domestic vaccine pass?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022469672000b8f455fb26def0d957720cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022469672000b8f455fb26def0d957720cc\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister for COVID-19 Response):\u003C/span\u003E Work began to establish My Health Account and My COVID Record in April 2021. I\u2019m advised that a standard tender process was followed for the work to put the certificate part of that system in place. That commenced in July. A request for proposals was released on 9 July to seven suppliers. The Ministry of Health standard procurement process was then followed. The evaluation panel recommendation was approved on 15 September and the contract was signed on 13 October. In answer to the second part of the question, yes. Like all matters related to COVID-19, the Government\u2019s taken a measured and considered approach to ensure that New Zealand\u2019s got access to reliable and safe technology to protect ourselves from COVID-19, both domestically and around the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1b5482eaecf47f19ad8e80b86cf86bd\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: So just for clarity, can he confirm to the House that the contract for the development of the vaccination pass was only signed by the Government a month ago?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f74291574704debb97cd7a105ceff3d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, for the very last part of the process, which is the actual downloadable certificate part of the process. But, as I indicated, what sits behind that, which is people\u2019s vaccination records and the ability to access their vaccination records, the work on that began in April.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224dd3d8afe2384515a04e655c0112d978\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: What is the explanation, if there is one, as to why it took until October 2021 for the very final part of the vaccine certificate process to be contracted for development?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cae0728dc51049f9a819b11c0568753c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: As I indicated, the tender part of that process started back in July, and given the member who has just resumed her seat has criticised the Ministry of Health in the past for not following tender processes for IT-related projects, I\u2019m sure he would support there being a full tender process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a077fe65f96e4e2287d5e32b93d14287\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Did any of the health advice that was provided in the lead up to yesterday\u2019s Cabinet meeting make any reference to the fact that My Vaccine Pass is still in the final stages of development, and did this inform decisions not to move Auckland to the COVID protection framework earlier than later?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f807c266ff964f6db6ce9808192d4c1e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m very confident that the vaccine certificates will be available when we move to the protection framework.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246fcc1f17c7f490ebca0417b3f942d7a\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Mr Speaker, that wasn\u2019t actually the question. It was: \u201CDid any of the health advice for yesterday\u2019s Cabinet meeting make any reference to the fact that My Vaccine was still in the final stages of development?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022029bdca7c11b4f5b8ce7aab1ea05a128\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to that point of order, Mr Speaker, I addressed the last part of the member\u2019s question. It had multiple prongs to it and I addressed the second one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bffbd8eadf44610844ca727cbeb1a05\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s the rules\u2014you have multiple legs; you only have to answer one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1694c4643a145b491516e18c8ffe57d\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Can he confirm that the decision to keep Auckland at the current alert level 3, step 2 setting and not move the region to the COVID protection framework has nothing to do with the fact that My Vaccine Pass is not available to Aucklanders and, in fact, New Zealanders today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271b5a21d526147119f7001913089b0d5\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I think the question somewhat contradicts itself, but the fact that the certificates are not yet available to download is not a factor in the current situation in Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223f43058921644e24b3b99fb58212d1f2\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Economic and Regional Development\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u00227fa412b1cf214f3c85b6fed8bdce7bad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227fa412b1cf214f3c85b6fed8bdce7bad\u0022\u003EWILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour\u2014Northland)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Economic and Regional Development: What announcements has he made regarding climate standards for new Government buildings?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u0022dbb9a29718604744a23fae16cbda195b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dbb9a29718604744a23fae16cbda195b\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH (Minister for Economic and Regional Development):\u003C/span\u003E Last week, Minister Shaw and I announced that from 1 April 2022 all new non-residential Government buildings with a capital value of over $25 million will have to meet a minimum Green Star rating of 5. As of the 1 April 2023, this standard will apply to all new non-residential Government buildings with a capital value of over $9 million. These minimum standards will ensure Government buildings achieve a level of excellence and climate-friendly design and construction rarely seen in New Zealand. Our Government has committed to achieving carbon neutrality in the public sector within five years, and this announcement takes us a step closer towards delivering on that promise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290c2009fa63441b58afa728056e2b44c\u0022\u003EWillow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: How will this rating system work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0a12de5a1d64d7e8792dc9ac5a6f774\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: The Green Star standard operates on a system of 100 points, with 4 star, 5 star or 6 star ratings available. A 5-star rating requires between 60 and 74 points, with points allocated for reductions in operational and embodied carbon, construction and operational waste, as well as other climate-friendly features such as reduced stormwater discharge or peak electricity demand. Buildings are big emitters, but the solution to this, such as improved design, better waste management, improved water and energy efficiency, and the low use of low-carbon materials, is achievable. This particular Green Star system is administered by the New Zealand Green Building Council and is adapted to suit a New Zealand context.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecb50c943940427fa96c2ef9ea978ba9\u0022\u003EWillow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: What feedback has he received on this announcement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a57f7da524e84261a2d6caf71696100c\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: A lot of positive feedback. For example, Cristina Gamboa, head of the World Green Building Council, speaking from COP-26 in Glasgow, has said, and I quote, that \u201CThis government promise \u2026 catapulted Aotearoa to the forefront of countries who recognize that buildings have a critical role to play in tackling climate change\u201D and that \u201CThis ambitious policy shows exactly the kind of leadership that is needed, and we\u2019ll be using it as an example to encourage other national governments to follow in New Zealand\u2019s footsteps.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226734fda55764f809eafff01255446d6\u0022\u003EHon Eugenie Sage\u003C/span\u003E: How much does he expect applying the Green Star 5 standard to non-residential Government buildings will reduce the waste produced in their design and construction, and how will the Government measure that reduction?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5f81baa657d4d45b5e05b23e36128cb\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s my understanding that the Green Star framework requires about 70 percent of construction waste to be diverted from landfill. This will be achieved by, for example, using recyclable products like building out of wood.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224d138ad590ea40b4bbf53f9e69a7cf4e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Housing (Public Housing)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5b8be3319694c818258e257b9eac975\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5b8be3319694c818258e257b9eac975\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Housing (Public Housing): Does she expect K\u0101inga Ora to evict public housing tenants where their ongoing anti-social behaviour is threatening the wellbeing of others, or does she agree with the decision of K\u0101inga Ora to not evict a tenant living in public housing in Whang\u0101rei, despite the tenant reportedly subjecting their elderly neighbours to a \u201Cprolonged campaign of intimidation and fear\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022 data-id=\u00229eebc81f6a9b415abcadbeca5bda9091\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229eebc81f6a9b415abcadbeca5bda9091\u0022\u003EHon POTO WILLIAMS (Associate Minister of Housing (Public Housing)):\u003C/span\u003E Everyone has the right to feel safe and secure living in their home, and I would expect K\u0101inga Ora to do all they can to ensure that this is the case. I\u2019m concerned about reports on this particular case and I\u2019ve asked for an update from officials. K\u0101inga Ora takes complaints seriously and I expect them to get involved as soon as they become aware of an issue at one of their properties. Eviction is a very specific process. It involves the Tenancy Tribunal ending a tenancy and a court bailiff taking possession of the property. It is not the only tool available to K\u0101inga Ora to deal with antisocial behaviour. People who need help to be housed can sometimes have complex issues in their lives that may lead to antisocial behaviour. Our Government is committed to sustaining tenancies to ensure that they have a secure foundation from which they can get the support that they need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab4c59ce283148a7a00e90922e7a1451\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Has K\u0101inga Ora evicted any of its tenants in the past three years, and if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f56fe18050b0437a8f802ce110113e4d\u0022\u003EHon POTO WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: An eviction is a very specific process that involves, as I\u2019ve said, the Tenancy Tribunal ending the tenancy, and the court bailiff taking possession of the property. I\u2019m advised that three evictions from K\u0101inga Ora homes have occurred since September 2017. I would note that eviction is not the only tool available to K\u0101inga Ora to deal with antisocial behaviour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f5a1bd16691407c98e6384d61fa102b\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Did K\u0101inga Ora evict any tenants this year, in 2020, or in 2019, and if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c38dae5dbee54f3a8dcc2c2ede7cbd59\u0022\u003EHon POTO WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s worth acknowledging that while K\u0101inga Ora has not evicted households for antisocial behaviour in recent years, in the last 12 months alone, we have worked to relocate 159 households with antisocial behaviour concerns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab9aa498b01d4261abbee6e908630c22\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That did not address the question. The Minister will answer again, addressing the question asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220061f939b9a145ecae3490078bf962d1\u0022\u003EHon POTO WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: No. It is worth\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256549ab525ad41d79e9d0615da2dc98c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member has now answered the question. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a9968c6e208449098bac5161476e47e\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Well, is it correct, as reported, that K\u0101inga Ora now has an internal policy that has prevented the agency evicting even the most difficult abusive tenants for the past three years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022388c709c892149d6bf10e43ff029f7ca\u0022\u003EHon POTO WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: We do not have a no-evictions policy. What we do have is a sustaining tenancies policy, a policy that has been in place since the last National Government. If the member would like more information on the sustaining tenancies policy, I would refer her to the Hon Amy Adams\u2019 letter of expectations to Housing New Zealand, dated April 2017.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b8e876c7f2b4e3d9e999f77e1cf6930\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: What would it take for a tenant to be evicted on that Minister\u2019s watch, if not the death threats and ongoing abuse experienced by a retired couple in Whang\u0101rei whose Black Power neighbour threatened to slit an 82-year-old\u2019s throat to watch him bleed out?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262c8c3e1f93e4a2db2e7d8d5546d2a4d\u0022\u003EHon POTO WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: As I\u2019ve said, everyone has the right to feel safe and secure when living in their home. K\u0101inga Ora take seriously complaints regarding antisocial behaviour and I expect them to get involved as soon as they become aware of the issue at their properties. I would also note that there is also an opportunity for them to call the police if serious threats are being made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228bd24ebe85e7439e9ddab194a20f86ec\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Agriculture\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002277875fee4d1f408daa0afcda50470f36\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277875fee4d1f408daa0afcda50470f36\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Agriculture: Does he stand by his statement that, relating to PKE, \u201Cthe New Zealand Government would not support importation that has led to illegal activity in foreign nations\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022 data-id=\u002252ea59ec8dc0471ab402835543af7ef6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252ea59ec8dc0471ab402835543af7ef6\u0022\u003EHon MEKA WHAITIRI (Associate Minister of Agriculture (Animal Welfare)) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister of Agriculture: To the first part of that question, yes. And second part: because New Zealand does not support the illegal importation of goods. New Zealand businesses need to ensure the integrity of their supply chains and that they are operating consistently within the laws of the relevant country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245b0c76f24624c6099994a31c66859be\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister directed his agencies to investigate recent reports linking Fonterra\u2019s palm kernel expeller (PKE) supplier, Wilmar International, to illegal palm oil plantations and deforestation in Indonesia, and, if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224285ff9fad024efca53b7799b3d0850f\u0022\u003EHon MEKA WHAITIRI\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, while I can\u2019t speak on behalf of Federated Farmers, the Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI) and industry are working together with farmers on how they can farm without PKE, and this work will continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022037f4447468a4b7482894d91bcf0bce2\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister concerned that New Zealand\u2019s status as the largest importer of PKE in the world is a reputational risk to our agricultural sector, following the Government joining a global commitment to halt deforestation by 2030 at COP-26 last week, and, if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022271789fc45df41e0b3300ebfac02f08f\u0022\u003EHon MEKA WHAITIRI\u003C/span\u003E: The Government takes deforestation very, very seriously. In relation to that specific question, for the member, the dairy system is overwhelmingly pasture based. So I\u2019m advised that approximately 80 to 85 percent of a New Zealand dairy cow\u2019s diet is pasture, with the remaining being supplementary feed. And all crops growing PKE account for approximately 6 to 7 percent of the total feed consumed by New Zealand dairy cows, and around a third of the non-pasture feed. It might be of interest for the member to know that PKE imports peaked in 2018 and have fallen by 17 percent, by volume, since then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022841b15343b7c40a1bc188f27a1479928\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with the recent comment from Federated Farmers\u2019 dairy chairman that, referring to PKE, \u201CWe have farmed without it before and we could again.\u201D, and, if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b7bfe659a044e6d9cb2094797b0c9f3\u0022\u003EHon MEKA WHAITIRI\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. Actually, the Federated Farmers chairman, Wayne Langford\u2019s full quote, which I support, goes: \u201CIt would definitely be a change to the systems currently in place. But we have farmed without it before and we could again.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226331c277d1c942a5a33208348137ec97\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: Will he seek advice from his officials on New Zealand\u2019s use of PKE sourced from palm oil plantations overseas and options for addressing this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022819357a76200400489fe8aee46385986\u0022\u003EHon MEKA WHAITIRI\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m advised that this Government, and through the work of MPI\u2014that we have an enormous regenerative farming programme that\u2019s currently operating throughout the country now. This Government has invested $6.5 million in regenerative agriculture projects through the Sustainable Food and Fibres Futures. So, yes, we would be looking at overseas models, for that member, but we\u2019ve got our own programme of work that will address the very issue the member has raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022caa115fe5aa648d585001c3f70560a20\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u00223205415d3e864295af627e9aa28d368c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223205415d3e864295af627e9aa28d368c\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I regret not raising this at the end of question No. 5, but in your reflections on today\u2019s question time, I wonder if you would review whether answers by Ministers that led to disorder were consistent with or in breach of Speaker\u2019s rulings 191(1) and (2).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00229bf502d335b949dfa54fc964c20f3a58\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229bf502d335b949dfa54fc964c20f3a58\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll certainly have a look.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d8857916d1bc4269bbb05cf9a88872a5\u0022\u003EParliamentary Service Commission\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d40f74ce0aff4cd384734e305ed9acf5\u0022\u003EMembership\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022bad687123cbb42c0982f7561610fb754\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bad687123cbb42c0982f7561610fb754\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That under section 15(1)(d) of the Parliamentary Service Act 2000, the Hon Michael Woodhouse be appointed as a member of the Parliamentary Service Commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227a250762372a449cbed14393a255a3c6\u0022\u003EOffices of Parliament\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224b0d58d496754ad9aad911c8d306285c\u0022\u003EOffice of the Controller and Auditor-General\u2014Appointment of Auditors\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c77514a7075e4f5c884bdd16cf2c970c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c77514a7075e4f5c884bdd16cf2c970c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That pursuant to section 38(1) of the Public Audit Act 2014, the House appoint PKF Goldsmith Fox Audit as the independent auditor to audit the financial statements, accounts, and other information of the Office of the Controller and Auditor-General for the financial years ending 30 June 2020, 30 June 2023, and 30 June 2024. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThere was a brief discussion about this at the Business Committee. Of course, while I\u2019m the person bringing the recommendation to the House, this is the recommendation of the Officers of Parliament Committee. There are only a limited number of auditors who could possibly do this work. Most significant audit firms do work contracted by the Office of the Auditor-General and therefore it would be a conflict of interest for them to themselves be auditing the Office of the Auditor-General. When previous processes have attempted to run a tender for this work to take place, it has by and large been relatively unsuccessful. In this case, the incumbent auditors, the current auditors, PKF Goldsmith Fox Audit, are happy to continue in that role, and that is the recommendation of the Officers of Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f10027cdbd034e15a3386815b3b78bab\u0022\u003EDeputy Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022a483ea377c0a4abdb0eb6ded3875c29b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a483ea377c0a4abdb0eb6ded3875c29b\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That, pursuant to section 164 of the Intelligence and Security Act 2017, this House recommend to Her Excellency the Governor-General the appointment of Mr Graeme Ian Speden as the Deputy Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security for a term of three years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022627880b0d6e846d694341fe8b47ca637\u0022\u003ECOVID-19 Orders\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022356ed029375e431c8d31f91058cce311\u0022\u003EApproval\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u002275daaa66eec94a7ba4f34918bfa21822\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275daaa66eec94a7ba4f34918bfa21822\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister for COVID-19 Response):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That this House approve the following orders made under the COVID-19 Public Health Response Act 2020:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ECOVID-19 Public Health Response (Alert Level Requirements) Order (No 12) 2021\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ECOVID-19 Public Health Response (Isolation and Quarantine) Amendment Order (No 2) 2021\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ECOVID-19 Public Health Response (Alert Level Requirements) Order (No 12) Amendment Order 2021\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ECOVID-19 Public Health Response (Alert Level Requirements) Order (No 12) Amendment Order (No 2) 2021\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ECOVID-19 Public Health Response (Alert Level Requirements) Order (No 12) Amendment Order (No 3) 2021\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ECOVID-19 Public Health Response (Alert Level Requirements) Order (No 12) Amendment Order (No 4) 2021\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ECOVID-19 Public Health Response (Alert Level Requirements) Order (No 12) Amendment Order (No 5) 2021\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ECOVID-19 Public Health Response (Alert Level Requirements) Order (No 12) Amendment Order (No 6) 2021\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ECOVID-19 Public Health Response (Isolation and Quarantine) Amendment Order (No 3) 2021\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ECOVID-19 Public Health Response (Alert Level Requirements) Order (No 12) Amendment Order (No 7) 2021\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ECOVID-19 Public Health Response (Vaccinations) Amendment Order (No 2) 2021\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ECOVID-19 Public Health Response (Required Testing) Amendment Order (No\u00A04) 2021\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ECOVID-19 Public Health Response (Alert Level Requirements) Order (No 12) Amendment Order (No 8) 2021.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThis is certainly not the first time the House has had to do this. Under the COVID-19 Public Health Response Act 2020, orders that the Government makes\u2014or that I make as the Minister for COVID-19 Response\u2014under the aforementioned Act, have to be endorsed by the Parliament. They only apply for 90 days if not endorsed by Parliament. In between me making an order and it coming to the floor of the House for a vote, it\u2019s scrutinised by the Regulations Review Committee. And I can tell you, as the person who receives the correspondence from the Regulations Review Committee, that they do a very thorough and diligent job of scrutinising those orders, of ensuring that they are being made consistent with the Act, of ensuring that they are not being done in a way that unduly tramples on people\u2019s rights and freedoms\u2014although there is recognition in the Act itself that people\u2019s rights and freedoms may be affected by the COVID-19 response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ESo I want to run through, briefly, the orders\u2014and there are 12 orders that are under consideration today. I\u2019ll deal with them in groups.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EEight of the orders in question deal with alert level - type changes. So the purpose of the COVID-19 Public Health Response (Alert Level Requirements) Order (No 12) was to prevent and limit the risk of the outbreak or spread of COVID-19 by setting the level 3 conditions that are in place in Auckland, and the level 2 conditions in place around the rest of the country. Subsequent amendments have been made to that as the response has continued. The changes covered by those amendments include things like: the level 3 boundary that was put into effect in the Waikato; the level 3 period that Northland was placed at that alert level; the mandatory testing requirement for those crossing the border for work; amendments in relation to gatherings and physical distancing requirements in certain circumstances, like early childhood education; and the requirements for movement between Auckland, Waikato, and other parts of the country. I want to acknowledge that the Regulations Review Committee did make some useful comments around how we define the boundaries in the Northland region. And it recommended that the boundaries should be described by reference to roads, rivers, or other geographical markers\u2014which the public would be more familiar with\u2014rather than the cartographical references that are used in the current orders. I think that that is a reasonable suggestion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe committee also expressed concern about amendment order No. 7 which imposed a new prohibition on people travelling to a secondary home or place of residence after a Government announcement of alert level change, and before those changes came into force. The committee was concerned that there was insufficient communication of the new rules, and if there was insufficient communication of the rules, it could lead to people unknowingly committing a criminal offence. I want to be clear here that that\u2019s always the case when an alert level changes and a boundary is put in place. This particular change was to effectively stop the Coromandel exodus that has happened once or twice from Auckland when the alert level has escalated there. People knowingly, knowing that Auckland is about to go into a lockdown, abandoned Auckland and headed out to the Coromandel to their beach houses\u2014that somewhat defeats the purpose of having a boundary in place in order to contain the risk. So while I acknowledge the committee\u2019s concern in this particular case, I don\u2019t necessarily agree with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ETwo of the orders amend the COVID-19 Public Health Response (Isolation and Quarantine) Order that was put in place last year. That\u2019s the order that establishes managed isolation and quarantine. Amendment Order (No 2) updated the definition of medical examination and testing to include the use of saliva testing. Amendment Order (No 3) prescribed the requirements for self-isolation by those taking part in the Government\u2019s self-isolation project. There was one concern expressed by the Regulations Review Committee, which said that the order \u201Cassumes a link between a person\u2019s participation in the programme and their employer.\u201D, which would not necessarily be the case, but the rationale for creating a legal obligation on the employer for the behaviour of the participant is to ensure that the employer only puts forward employees who the employer trusts to participate in that pilot programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe COVID-19 Public Health Response (Vaccinations) Amendment Order (No 2) updated the principal order to extend the meaning of \u201Cvaccinated\u201D, to recognise some of the people who may have been vaccinated with vaccines other than Pfizer abroad. So it includes vaccines like Moderna, AstraZeneca, Janssen, etc. The COVID-19 Public Health Response (Required Testing) Order 2020 was designed to protect and limit the risk of an outbreak by requiring testing and medical examination of affected people for COVID-19, and it put in place\u2014for staff at various education locations and facilities\u2014the requirement to provide a negative test before they physically enter the site. It puts in place a weekly testing requirement for unvaccinated workers at an affected education service until mandatory vaccination requirements come into force on 1 January. The committee raised some concerns about the clarity of that order, as they often do about orders, and we\u2019ll have a look at those as a package\u2014though these orders have been pretty central to our COVID-19 response, and they\u2019ve helped to play a very significant role in limiting the spread of COVID-19 cases across New Zealand. Often, they are put in place in a hurry. Often, the Regulations Review Committee\u2014and in fact the work that officials do after orders are put in place\u2014identify further changes, refinements, clarifications that can be put in place. That\u2019s one of the reasons why these are often regularly amended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ESome weeks I seem to be up until midnight most nights awaiting the day\u2019s order coming through so that it can be signed and gazetted that night, because, inevitably, given the pressure that the drafters work under here, there will be points of clarification that need to be made, and I want to thank those who do that. I do really just want to underscore that point: that when decisions are made, the process of putting the legal instruments for those in place is a very compressed one. The people who do this work do so under enormous pressure and often right into the night and into the early morning in order to make sure that the law is clear and that it can be complied with, and I certainly thank them for their efforts. They have been integral to our COVID-19 response, they have been diligent and conscientious, and they deserve our acknowledgment and our thanks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002234624994e07749779c5452decf7f9aae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234624994e07749779c5452decf7f9aae\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00220c1af7baaf8543b29bc73f379c343669\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c1af7baaf8543b29bc73f379c343669\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker, and thank you to the Minister for COVID-19 for that long, or reasonably long, explanation as to the various orders that the House is approving. For those listening who perhaps are not so au fait with the procedure here, what the House is doing now is actually a very important constitutional role. Pursuant to the COVID-19 Public Health Response Act, the House has given the Government quite extraordinary powers to promulgate various orders and restrictions on people\u2019s movements, and make people do a variety of things\u2014for example, if you work at the border, you have to get a test regularly, and other things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo Parliament has given the Government extraordinary powers, and now Parliament is exercising its constitutional duty to make sure that the Government is exercising those powers responsibly. As is its wont, Parliament has given the Regulations Review Committee the heavy burden of doing that work, and the Regulations Review Committee, as the Minister has indicated, does a very good job in doing that. We take that job seriously, we do it conscientiously, and we do it diligently, and I want to extend my thanks to the very hard-working team who support the Regulations Review Committee. Basically, what we are trying to do is to make sure that the powers exercised by the Government in the orders, in the legal parlance, vires\u2014so, in other words, they are legal and they follow consistently with what the powers that Parliament has given to the Government are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo, in that regard, I want to indicate that we\u2019ll be supporting the motion moved by the Government to approve these orders, but I do want to make four particular points around four of the orders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe first is in relation to the variety of orders to do with saliva testing, and I want to put on the record, from the National Party point of view, the great concern we have, still, with the way in which saliva testing is dealt with by the Government. So COVID-19 Public Health Response (Required Testing) Amendment Order (No 5)\u2014and you\u2019ll forgive me, sir, if sometimes we get the exact number wrong, there\u2019s so many of these orders\u2014that relates to saliva testing and amends the COVID-19 Public Health Response (Required Testing) Order 2020. We believe that saliva testing is not being utilised to the extent that it should be in our managed isolation and quarantine (MIQ) facilities, and I want to place on the record our great concern at the Auditor-General\u2019s report released last week\u2014well, not report, I should say; it\u2019s more of a letter to the House, or I think it was actually to the Rt Hon Winston Peters and others\u2014in relation to the procurement process for saliva testing, generally, this year. That report is of grave concern, and, at some point, we are going to have to have a reckoning as to what has happened with saliva testing in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWe are concerned that, still, if you are in MIQ, you cannot take a saliva test as part of the mandatory testing in MIQ as a returnee. The trial that was meant to be under way already has been suspended by the MIQ operators, for reasons that are not fully understood, and so we are concerned about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe second order I want to deal with relates to the COVID-19 Public Health Response (Alert Level Requirements) Order (No 12) Amendment Order (No 6). This was the one that was presented on 12 October 2021 in relation to the alert level decision by adding Northland as a new separate part of the alert level 3 area. The concern here, and this was recognised by the Regulations Review Committee, was clause 15 inserted a new Part 3 in Schedule 3 of the principal order, and it described the Northland part of the alert level 3 area as \u201Cthe area within the boundaries of Northland Region, as shown on LG-01-2019-Con-1.\u201D, which is a text-based numerical description, I think, of\u2014it\u2019s essentially a map reference. But the point that the Regulations Review Committee made was that that is not readily accessible to most people. I didn\u2019t really know what it meant\u2014it\u2019s a rule of law issue, which is that people should be able to work out what the boundaries are of the travel restrictions, and simply saying \u201CLG-01-2019-Con-1\u201D is essentially hieroglyphics, basically, for most people, in fact, 99.9 percent of people, unless you\u2019re familiar with how to read maps; most people would have no idea what that even means.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo that goes to a rule of law issue, and that has now been fixed and the Regulations Review Committee has done a good job in highlighting that, but that is not the way these things should be done, and the Regulations Review Committee wrote to the Minister saying that there needs to be a reference to things that people know about\u2014so roads, rivers, geographical markers that ordinary, reasonable people can identify so they know what they can and can\u2019t do. That\u2019s perfectly reasonable, and that is an example, actually, of the committee doing its job to improve the order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe other issue I want to pick up is in relation to the COVID-19 Public Health Response (Alert Level Requirements) Order (No 12) Amendment Order (No 7), which is the issue to do with the prohibition on people travelling to a secondary home or place of residence after a Government announcement of the alert level change, and the Minister made reference to this. So it\u2019s after there\u2019s an announcement of an alert level change, but before the changes come into force. The committee\u2019s noted that this is an unusual provision. It imposes an obligation that relies on a subsequent oral announcement. Now, the Minister didn\u2019t have a lot of concern with that\u2014or I think he indicated that he didn\u2019t really agree with the concern\u2014but that is unusual. So for the Government to impose an obligation on someone that relies on a subsequent oral announcement\u2014and the committee\u2019s noted: \u201CAlthough the main part of the obligation is in this order, elements of the obligation only exist when an oral announcement is made.\u201D\u2014that places a reasonably heavy burden on people to actually listen to the oral announcement and, again, from a rule of law point of view, that is, I would say, suboptimal. Things should be as clear as possible in writing so that people can follow the law and follow the rules. So I respectfully disagree with the Minister in his disagreement with the problems with that order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EFinally, I want to deal with the issue of the COVID-19 Public Health Response (Alert Level Requirements) Order (No 12). This is the one that was presented on 23 September that moved Auckland and the Upper Hauraki to alert level 3, and kept New Zealand at alert level 2. This is in relation to the rules regarding the obligation to carry evidence of a COVID-19 test. So the existing obligation at the time was to carry evidence for a COVID-19 test taken no more than seven days before a journey. It then introduced an obligation of no more than 72 hours before a person\u2019s journey. The point I want to make is that with Delta, 72 hours is actually, arguably, still too long a time\u2014that for the imposition of these requirements on people, we really should be moving to rapid antigen testing, as I think David Seymour said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo members will be aware of the truck driver\u2014this is a while ago now, but we\u2019re dealing with things from a while ago\u2014who left Auckland, went to Palmerston North, and tested COVID positive. He was only on a weekly testing cycle, and, yep, 72 hours is better, but how good would it have been if we had rapid antigen testing in the country and he could have taken a daily test before he started work? Now, it\u2019s likely\u2014we don\u2019t know, obviously, but it\u2019s likely\u2014that that test would have picked up the fact that the truck driver had COVID on the day he took the trip. As it was, he went four more days without testing positive for COVID, and, as I\u2019m sure the Minister and other people would agree, how quickly you pick up COVID, particularly with Delta, is critical. You\u2019ve got to pick it up as fast as you can, and, unfortunately, the Government\u2019s failure to move fast enough on rapid antigen testing has meant that this order\u2014we\u2019ll approve it, but it could be so much more, and it could be that if we made use of the technology that we have available, we could have imposed an order that said evidence of a negative COVID test, or rapid antigen test, on the day of, or for people working through the night in the 24 hours before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThat would have been a better order, I think, more consistent with public health, and, actually, I would say, more consistent with the science, because as Professor Jackson\u2019s report makes clear from the COVID-19 Testing Technical Advisory Group\u2014in his words\u2014we\u2019ve been too slow on rapid antigen testing. I know the Government\u2019s got an aversion to it, but we really should be using it more, and that\u2019s what this order should have contained. But we will approve them, and thank you to the Minister for the explanation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022 data-id=\u00227d06da85aa404aa68892fcfc04b74260\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d06da85aa404aa68892fcfc04b74260\u0022\u003EDr ELIZABETH KEREKERE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise in support of these 12 orders, which, of course, are already in effect. We note the work of the Regulations Review Committee in preparing this report. I suspect you\u2019ll be doing many, many more of them. Ng\u0101 mihi to the Minister for this introduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003ESo we note these orders were first presented in the House between 21 September and 18 October; this is our first opportunity to actually debate them. They were made in that period when Auckland was first put into level 3 and other areas such as Northland, Waikato, and Upper Hauraki were moved to higher alert levels. So much has changed since then, but I think it\u2019s important to always come back and check on these things. So, as the Minister noted, these cover isolation and quarantine, alert level requirements, required testing, and vaccinations. So\u2014[Clears throat] aroha mai\u2014I\u2019m going to briefly comment on some of those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EI agree with the previous member, how important it is that saliva testing is much, much more prevalent in the work that we\u2019re doing. So we\u2019re looking to see much greater clarity around how that will be used and the prevalence of its use.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EMany of the requests I receive are about clarifying the restrictions. People are getting very, very confused. So even sensible and very intelligent people are coming to me to say, \u201CWhat about this, what about this, what about this?\u201D, and it\u2019s getting very, very tricky. So I realise that\u2019s a significant comms issue, but if people can\u2019t understand the rules it\u2019s really hard for them to keep coming to them\u2014so requirements about where to use face coverings or the numbers for gatherings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EAlthough I suspect incentives work better, from what we have seen in raising vaccinations, we note that it does create another infringement offence for people who are not displaying a quick response (QR) code. So just a shout-out to all those thousands and thousands of businesses who do have all their QR codes up there, that are following the rules, have their little stations, and are doing all the things. I suspect it\u2019s only a very small number of people who are still not meeting that. So, if need be, if we must do infringement fees, that is in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EBut as COVID moves around the country, for those of us in Tai R\u0101whiti and other areas where vaccination numbers are so low\u2014and that\u2019s for everybody, not just for M\u0101ori, and that\u2019s despite the really hard work of our local providers and our community people getting that push out there\u2014we\u2019re watching very, very, closely what happens with the Auckland border and how people can move across alert levels.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003ESo the Greens want to see an increase in the compassionate reasons for people to move across the border: being able to see wh\u0101nau, being able to attend tangi\u2014those things are really, really important. Family connection, especially, is critical\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022164a424ce6184151a1e34d818465c900\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I\u2019m going to draw the member back to the orders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d2d7d65a2d9416894965b580e10df2b\u0022\u003EDr ELIZABETH KEREKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Ka pai. I was just coming back, too. So we support more access to businesses and services, work and education, funerals and tangi, which is one of the things of this order. So we\u2019re saying that we absolutely support those. Increasing permissions to allow children moving between caregivers and people going to or relocating their principal places of residence; we see this as particularly important for students who are all going to be leaving the main cities where their\u2014which institutions they were in, and those who are going to be moving to them to take up study.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EWe support relaxing the border restrictions when it is safe to do so. So we do support people being required to carry evidence of a test or a negative result, and we do welcome the prohibition of people moving to a second place of residence. In particular, that Auckland people should not be\u2014or anybody, really\u2014able to go and do holiday on nearby places like Waiheke or Aotea. What we\u2019re not clear on, though, is what this means in terms of transitioning to a traffic light area and how those prohibitions work. So we still would look forward to greater clarity on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EThe last part I want to address is around self-isolation and the pilot. So we note that this particular order is around the requirements for work-related trips, which, of course, also includes all of us. So we support increased guidelines on this, because, now that we\u2019ve had a few deaths with people who are self-isolating outside of managed isolation and quarantine (MIQ) facilities or hospitals, we\u2019re concerned about the capacity for people. So I certainly am hoping that that pilot has got clarity on how they\u2019re looking after all these people\u2014hundreds at the moment, but probably thousands eventually\u2014who is testing them and who is checking whether they actually should be in hospital, and at what point that happens. So we said that anymore self-isolation needs to prioritise those who need it instead of putting people in overcrowded situations, or who are mainly in hardship. An opportunity, perhaps, to reunite split migrant families by including them in these trials and ensuring MIQ is available for community cases unable to self-isolate safely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EAnd, finally, we note our overall concern that the obligations and permissions made through these orders prioritise those who are most vulnerable, and lead to the safest outcomes. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022669b241eea8144b48af943f3624c73d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022669b241eea8144b48af943f3624c73d7\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of ACT in support of this motion to approve these 12 orders that the Government has made under the COVID-19 Public Health Response Act. We think that it\u2019s been a good system, such as things go, to be able to give the Government the power to act quickly but also have the laws clearly written down, so people know what their rights are, and have ultimate parliamentary oversight and have those laws eventually debated, even if they couldn\u2019t be debated at the time they were introduced. It\u2019s a good compromise for an emergency situation but not the way that we\u2019d want to have lawmaking done in the long term. I hear the Minister talking of sitting up late, signing papers well into the night, and I think about other historical figures who have done that, and it\u2019s never a good company to keep.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThis particular set of orders has, for example, rescinded the alert level 3 requirement that was briefly in place for the very tip of Northland. It\u2019s an alert level change that never made any sense from a public health point of view. That particular alert level requirement meant that an area at the very tip of Northland, where there were a couple of cases\u2014the line went through the centre of the Hokianga Harbour and then across to Kae\u014D and blocked off Kait\u0101ia and the rest of the northern tip of Northland. Interestingly, the same day that that line was drawn, the Prime Minister of New Zealand had been visiting R\u0101wene, on the south coast of the Hokianga Harbour, and Kawakawa, just south of Kae\u014D. How convenient that the Prime Minister was never quite north of the line that went to alert level 3, and yet there\u2019s so many reasons why that line might have been drawn further south. There were suspected cases all the way down to Wellsford and even Warkworth, but isn\u2019t that interesting that the line was drawn just north of where the Prime Minister had been that day? [Interruption] I\u2019m sure people will draw their own conclusions about that. Members at home might be able to hear Willow-Jean Prime, the member for Northland, chirping up there. I think she knows there\u2019s something in that, and that\u2019s why she\u2019s a little agitated by hearing it said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThis legislation also puts in place the vaccination mandate for the health and disability sector. It required people be vaccinated with at least one dose by, actually, today, or as of last night. I\u2019ll make a couple of comments about that. One is that it would be better if it was a vaccine or test mandate. That\u2019s what they\u2019ve done in Denmark. They have allowed people to demonstrate on their app. They\u2019ve got their app rolled out already, which is helpful, and it says either you\u2019re vaccinated, you\u2019ve recently had a negative test, or perhaps you\u2019ve recently recovered from COVID. In any case, you\u2019re not a danger to people around you in so far as passing COVID on to them. I think it would have been helpful if it was a vax or test mandate. That\u2019s what Air New Zealand will be using from mid-December to fly domestically on their aeroplanes. I hope that the Government will consider making it vax or test, because vaccine-only is rather blunt. It\u2019s creating disruption and division in New Zealand. We need to think about our social cohesion in the long term, as well as our immediate battle with COVID-19.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThe other thing about that particular order that brought in place a health and disability mandate is the way that it was introduced. It was two weeks. There were three weeks from when it was announced that health and disability sector workers would have to be vaccinated to the day, just yesterday or today\u2014last night\u2014that they had to be. In those three weeks, it actually took two of the weeks from the time the announcement was made to the time that the order was actually put in place, and that\u2019s something people need to understand about how the Government is using these powers under the COVID-19 Public Health Response Act. It\u2019s getting up and making announcements, and then it\u2019s taking two weeks to issue the paperwork. I can tell the House that the implications of that for people in the health and disability sector were immense. They found themselves in a situation where they didn\u2019t know exactly who was covered, exactly who was liable for enforcing it, exactly who was in a position where they would be punished if they didn\u2019t comply. It led to chaos in the health and disability sector for a fortnight, and I just wish the Government, having been given these powers, would actually get a bit more organised itself so that it didn\u2019t impose disorganisation on the very people being regulated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EIt allows for more frequent saliva testing, and I think that\u2019s a very welcome thing, but I just echo what Chris Bishop has said: every 72 hours in a Delta environment\u2014arguably even that is not regular enough. There\u2019s certainly under-utilisation of saliva testing. It was interesting in question time today that the Prime Minister really gave some quite lively answers, actually. Uncharacteristically, she really let rip in a couple of instances. One of the things she said is we are no longer in an Alpha environment: we have Delta now. I think the Prime Minister is right to observe that. It\u2019s very true. But, you know, the funny thing is our testing is still Alpha. We still have nasopharyngeal testing, and sometimes only once a week or once every three days. We should be moving to much more frequent saliva testing and even rapid antigen testing. But three days is certainly what Air New Zealand will be using as a standard, and it\u2019s an improvement on once every week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s something here about Waiheke Island. You\u2019ll only be able to go there if you live there, and I know from people I know on Waiheke that they\u2019ll be very pleased, because they don\u2019t like Aucklanders visiting their island. I also just beg the Minister: can he make it symmetrical? Because while they\u2019ll certainly enjoy not having us Aucklanders over there, if he made it both ways, then potentially we could enjoy them not coming over to see us either. There\u2019s the potential for a real win-win, and I know Aucklanders and Waiheke residents alike will be really pleased not to see each other for as long as possible. So thank you for getting half the job done, Minister. Please complete it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s also an amendment here that allows people\u2014an amendment to a prior order, that is\u2014to travel back to their boarding school. Now, I had several constituents\u2014we have a number of boarding schools in the Epsom electorate\u2014who had to, basically, miss out on sitting their exams if they weren\u2019t able to get in from the Waikato or from Auckland. Thankfully, the Minister actually changed the law, apparently and coincidentally, just after myself and a local principal had written to him, and we\u2019re very grateful for that change, because it meant that those kids were able to sit their exams. But it also showed how illogical some of these laws were. If you were the cook at the hostel, then you would have been able to travel, because you\u2019re doing food and accommodation. If you\u2019re the kid trying to sit the exam, going to the school, you weren\u2019t allowed. I\u2019m glad they changed it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s also vaccine tests for schools. Now, that\u2019s, in a way, expired, but for a while there, unvaccinated teachers could get tested instead. This, again, is why I think if there\u2019s going to be a mandate, it should be vax or a frequent negative test. It will be a lot more inclusive of people who really, frankly, need a way back into inclusion, who are feeling very alienated from society right now, and it would also help us achieve our goals without the disruption and division that we have. The fact that the Government policy was vax or test up until yesterday, I think, is why they should bring it back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003ERecognition of overseas vaccines\u2014again, very sensible. A lot of constituents I\u2019ve had\u2014people that like to travel. Kiwis can fly. They get vaccinated overseas and then they find that their vaccine is not recognised. I even had someone who participated in a French trial in New Zealand of a French vaccine\u2014only recently been able to have their vaccine recognised. So they\u2019ll be very happy that now it can be. There\u2019s an MIQ trial there that allows people\u2014150 business travellers. Look, this is something ACT floated and, actually, really, we borrowed from Singapore in March, in our COVID 2.0 paper. We should have a business travel network. Very good that 150 business people can travel, but it\u2019s not soon enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EAnd just finally, I appeal to the Minister: there\u2019s a number of orders here about movement across the Auckland and Waikato boundaries. I\u2019ve got a constituent right now who has a $200 million residential and shopping centre being developed in Tauranga, and they cannot open it up. It should have been finished three weeks ago. They can\u2019t open it up, because it\u2019s not disability friendly, because they can\u2019t get the people from Schindler Lifts to go down from Auckland to Tauranga and sign off the lifts. This is totally insane. So, Minister, I hope you\u2019ll actually grant an exemption to them, because they\u2019ve tried every other way to get through to you, and right now you\u2019ve got $200 million, people trying to move into their apartments, people trying to open their shops, and they can\u2019t because a few lift engineers can\u2019t go down. The same lift engineers have just been installing lifts in a retirement village. Apparently that counts; shops and apartments don\u2019t. So I really hope that the Minister will listen and make an exemption so that shopping centre in Tauranga can open up and those people can move into their apartments. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That this House approve the following orders made under the COVID-19 Public Health Response Act 2020: COVID-19 Public Health Response (Alert Level Requirements) Order (No 12) 2021, COVID-19 Public Health Response (Isolation and Quarantine) Amendment Order (No 2) 2021, COVID-19 Public Health Response (Alert Level Requirements) Order (No 12) Amendment Order 2021, COVID-19 Public Health Response (Alert Level Requirements) Order (No 12) Amendment Order (No 2) 2021, COVID-19 Public Health Response (Alert Level Requirements) Order (No 12) Amendment Order (No 3) 2021, COVID-19 Public Health Response (Alert Level Requirements) Order (No 12) Amendment Order (No 4) 2021, COVID-19 Public Health Response (Alert Level Requirements) Order (No 12) Amendment Order (No 5) 2021, COVID-19 Public Health Response (Alert Level Requirements) Order (No 12) Amendment Order (No 6) 2021, COVID-19 Public Health Response (Isolation and Quarantine) Amendment Order (No 3) 2021, COVID-19 Public Health Response (Alert Level Requirements) Order (No 12) Amendment Order (No 7) 2021, COVID-19 Public Health Response (Vaccinations) Amendment Order (No 2) 2021, COVID-19 Public Health Response (Required Testing) Amendment Order (No 4) 2021, and COVID-19 Public Health Response (Alert Level Requirements) Order (No 12) Amendment Order (No 8) 2021.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002247a06176fa4c41e59fb5ec793b45233c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 118\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; New Zealand National 33; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000256\u0022\u003EOrders approved.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227403cc4fd7dc44b39e8eecc018e211da\u0022\u003ECOVID-19 Public Health Response Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002226c690b0a50b42c2a09d48f685f3fdd3\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022a067480c237c4bf1a0d56530ed351497\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a067480c237c4bf1a0d56530ed351497\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister for COVID-19 Response):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the COVID-19 Public Health Response Amendment Bill (No 2).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220249165e5406405193193b14fa6153d5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022519b5ec2bca145ec8f116ae0884784a5\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the COVID-19 Public Health Response Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe bill makes amendments to the COVID-9 Public Health Response Act, a piece of legislation we\u2019ve already just had a bit of a debate about in the House in terms of the orders that have been made underneath it. The overall goal of this is to ensure that we can continue to respond to the pandemic in a flexible and agile way as our response to COVID-19 continues to evolve in the coming months. I would like to thank the chair and the members of the Health Committee for their diligent consideration of the bill. I\u2019d also like to thank those who made submissions on the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI want to comment on some of the substantive issues that were raised, and I think it would be fair to say that one of the things that generated the most debate about this particular legislation was the changes to fines and infringement notices and the potential maximum level of fines and infringements. When this legislation was first established, it wasn\u2019t entirely clear exactly what the sorts of orders that we may need to make under it would be. And so the level of fines and infringements that were provided for in the original Act that we\u2019re now amending were relatively low. What became clear as we were heading through operationalising different orders that were made under the Act is that those levels of fines and infringements could be regarded as somewhat trivial relative to the consequences of people deliberately and knowingly trying to get around those rules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ESo, for example, if we rewind back to when we had to reimpose restrictions on those coming trans-Tasman from Australia to New Zealand, in order to try and prevent COVID19, Delta in particular, getting into New Zealand\u2014recognising that our current Delta outbreak that we\u2019re dealing with now in multiple parts of the country actually originated in Australia\u2014in our attempts to try and stop that, we had to reimpose travel restrictions. The reality is for people deliberately breaching those restrictions, the infringements available to us were trivial: $300 or a maximum of $1,000. Given the consequences that could be generated by people who brought Delta into New Zealand, which we\u2019ve now seen what those consequences are\u2014although in this particular case, that person was not at fault; they were a person who went through managed isolation and quarantine (MIQ)\u2014but someone who was what we\u2019d describe as a border averter: so someone who travelled from an Australian state that they weren\u2019t allowed to travel from, to an Australian state that they were allowed to travel from, and did not tell the truth about their travel history. That person could have been creating a world of pain for New Zealand, and the ability to impose a proportionate fine or infringement upon them did not exist under the legislation. And so that\u2019s why we reviewed that, and I have brought this bill before the House to increase the maximum levels of fines and infringements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI want to be clear here that the Government\u2019s intention from this point onwards is, effectively, to create a sliding scale of potential fines and infringements under this law that will allow for low-level risk to be dealt with by the existing kind of low-level fines and infringements that are available now. It would only be those where the consequences of the offending of the people breaking the rules was at the sort of more extreme end that we would impose the maximum fines and infringements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe second issue that was raised, and I know that it\u2019s one that generated a debate amongst members of the select committee, was regarding the potential to make orders relating to medical testing laboratories. The bill allows for orders to be made for a variety of purposes in relation to testing labs, but particularly would allow for the Government to make the best use of the national COVID-19 testing capacity in the event of a severe outbreak of COVID-19, including by requisitioning testing consumables or requiring that testing laboratories undertake testing solely for the public health response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThe Government does recognise that these are substantial powers and they would have a particular impact on the owners of testing laboratories. It\u2019s for that reason that the bill provides for compensation or payment for those services should those powers be used. I would note that these powers are not unprecedented\u2014these powers are not unprecedented. There are already provisions in the Health Act of 1956 that make similar kinds of provisions. These ones, however, are tied specifically to our COVID-19 response. They were in a piece of legislation that has to be consistently and regularly renewed by Parliament and that will expire. So by tying them to the COVID-19 response\u2014yes, it is an infringement on the freedom of those businesses, if you like, potentially, but it would be a very high threshold to use that. The reason for it is simply this: if we\u2019re dealing with a severe outbreak, testing is critical, and we have to make sure that we can make the best use of all of the testing available in the environment where supplies around testing are very constrained internationally\u2014so our ability to get testing supplies on a large scale into the country continues to be constrained internationally, so we\u2019ve got to make the best use of the ones that we have available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a43525e40885470c944b892ff6b9c99a\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: What about legalising rapid antigen testing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270a6e5397e714232a118817e1ab5829f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll just pick up a couple of other things. In terms of\u2014the member asks about legislating for rapid antigen testing. That is allowed for under the orders that have already been made under this legislation. In terms of the other issues that were raised during the debate on this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022531cbf9d73064eaf99bd4303b8596638\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Can I go to the shop and buy one?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022418c875b891846eba645c7c6564d05c9\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, the member wants to be able to buy rapid antigen tests. It is still\u2014and I think we may well get to that point in the future, but it is important that, actually, rapid antigen tests are understood for their strengths and weaknesses, and, actually\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb577b5745fe4379a329f163451fa6b0\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Testing\u2019s so important, but you can\u2019t buy it at the shop.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a389dfac958413b97d05b5555c8304a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, no, actually, reliable diagnostic testing\u2014and everybody around rapid antigen tests would agree that they are not a diagnostic test. They are a surveillance test, not a diagnostic test. So the provisions in this bill deal with the provisions around diagnostic testing, which is critical in a severe outbreak. The issues around rapid antigen testing are different, and it does have a significant role to play in reducing the pressure on our diagnostic tests, because if we are using rapid antigen tests to do some of the surveillance testing\u2014which we are moving to doing more and more of them; that\u2019s already happening\u2014that means that it frees up our PCR labs, effectively, to make sure that they\u2019re being used in the best way possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EOther issues that were raised during the select committee debate on this were around the role of MIQ and whether we need to have a more developed framework for our managed isolation and quarantine facilities, which the bill allows for. I would note that there are some in the House who believe MIQ\u2019s time is done and we should simply stop isolating or quarantining anybody at the border. That is not the position of the Government and, therefore, we do still need a robust arrangement for MIQ in place at the border, and we\u2019re likely to need that for some time for those who are higher-risk people, those who are unvaccinated, and to make sure that we don\u2019t end up in a situation where we get hundreds of additional cases coming into New Zealand across the border, seeding in the community and therefore triggering a very large-scale outbreak.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ESo we want to manage the reopening of the border in a careful way so that we are continuing to suppress COVID-19 in the New Zealand community, so we don\u2019t have massive, flaming outbreaks of COVID-19 that cannot be controlled. There is a balance to reach here. And, yes, we will see more movement across the international border in the coming months, but we\u2019ll be doing that in a way that is careful so that we don\u2019t end up being overrun by COVID-19. Because, bear in mind, as we do start to liberate settings at the border, many, many more people will come into the country. So it\u2019s not fair to look only at the positivity rate of those who are being tested in MIQ, because we potentially would be multiplying the number of people coming in by many, many fold, and that does create additional risk of COVID-19 taking off in parts of the country where it would be very difficult to control and to contain.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ESo, ultimately, these amendments are ones that I think are sensible. I do just want to mention one further amendment that\u2019s been made by the committee, with the full support of the Government, and that is to provide additional privacy protections for people\u2019s QR code data and for data that they share as part of the COVID-19 response to our contact tracers. I\u2019ve always been confident that the systems in place to protect that information are very robust. There has been some concern, though, that there could be additional measures put in place. Some of the amendments made by the committee do further strengthen the level of reassurance around the protection of people\u2019s data, and, therefore, I think that they are welcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00227f065b4c879e45a5ab986e5f739bde04\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f065b4c879e45a5ab986e5f739bde04\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb6f0fe9567648de8398fdb87a8419c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb6f0fe9567648de8398fdb87a8419c8\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. On Sunday, I visited Auckland for the first time in 13 or 14 weeks, and it was not a decision that I took lightly. But I had had a number of people reach out to me in the preceding days, saying, \u201CYou\u2019ve got to come up here and see for yourself the scale of the devastation and the anguish, and talk to people face to face.\u201D So I visited Auckland and, unlike another prominent political leader who also went to Auckland the week before, I actually went and talked to people on the ground whose businesses were affected by the COVID restrictions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve got to tell you that what I discovered was actually really heartbreaking: hospitality owners who are just thinking about the Christmas period, knowing that Aucklanders will probably leave Auckland over Christmas and that that time of year in January, when it\u2019s a bit of a slow period, will be even slower. They\u2019re trying to make money now and they can\u2019t open. When they hear that they can\u2019t open right now because the vaccine certificates aren\u2019t ready because the Government only signed the contract with the IT provider a month ago, there is going to be outrage, and rightly so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI talked to people who are mortgaging their homes, who are selling their cars, and who are just doing what they can to get by, and what they don\u2019t want is platitudes and they don\u2019t want this bill\u2014which does nothing to make life better for them\u2014they just want some certainty. They want a date and they want to know what the rules are and they want to get back to business so that they can start employing people again and start making some money to try and get through the next few months, and this bill does nothing\u2014it does nothing for them. It does nothing for Auckland hospitality, it does nothing for Auckland small business, it does nothing for Wellington small business, and it does nothing for Christchurch business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWhat it does is continue and perpetuate the Fortress New Zealand mentality that underpins this Government\u2019s COVID response. Even despite the changes in terms of vaccination, it continues the idea that we can be locked away in splendid isolation for ever. It reflects a world in which the Government cannot move on from elimination, which failed. It reflects a world in which the Government is psychologically incapable of acknowledging that elimination failed, they didn\u2019t have a back-up plan, and we have to move to suppression, and it reflects a world that\u2019s actually quite scary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223026f21e02304a1991dc9056a5073274\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: Welcome to Delta. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bae1d9f6136435b92d9aea91ae9905d\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Oh well, the member says \u201CDelta\u201D. Yeah, exactly\u2014exactly. The member says \u201CDelta\u201D. Yeah, Delta turned up in April. Delta turned up in April. What did the Government do? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe Prime Minister thinks it arrived in June. It arrived in managed isolation and quarantine (MIQ) in April. When did the Government establish a COVID-19 testing group to tell them about rapid antigen tests? Did they do that in February, March, April, May, June? No. They did it in August\u2014August. When did the Government authorise vaccine certificates? Did they think about vaccine certificates in February, March, April, May, June\u2014like every other country was doing? No. The Government authorised vaccine certificates to be developed in July, and they signed the contract with the IT company on 13 October. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo everyone listening out there needs to know, if you\u2019re in Auckland and you want to leave the \u201CAuckland Prison\u201D, you want to go back to work, or you want to go and have a beer outside on Ponsonby Road in a courtyard and you can\u2019t, the reason you can\u2019t is because there\u2019s no such thing as a vaccine certificate in New Zealand yet, and the reason there isn\u2019t a vaccine certificate is because the Government was lazy and incompetent and didn\u2019t do the work earlier this year. That\u2019s the reason. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EVaccine certificates could be in place right now. If we had vaccine certificates in place right now, Aucklanders could leave, they could go to the pub, they could go outside and go for a meal, they could go shopping, and they could go back to work. They can\u2019t, because this lazy, useless Government assumed that elimination would work, and they had no back-up plan whatsoever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019ll oppose this bill for three reasons: one, it\u2019s predicated on the wrong assumption, Fortress New Zealand; two, it reflects a world in which elimination is the mentality, not suppression; and, thirdly\u2014this was the point I was coming to before the soon to be former member for Northcote interrupted me and made the point\u2014it reflects a world in which the Government thinks that confiscation of private property for no reason is acceptable. The member\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277a4f90c7305422896d937ab5bfe1d28\u0022\u003ETerisa Ngobi\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re angry, eh? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226aff96cf1ecb4114b4e4b1b4d1f9415a\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I am angry. The member who\u2019s soon to be the former member for \u014Ctaki interrupts from way down the back of the House and says that I\u2019m angry. Yeah, I am angry. I am angry. I am angry, and there\u2019s a reason I\u2019m angry, because, unlike that member, I have visited the people in Auckland, who are locked down and who have been in one of the longest lockdowns in the developed world, and I\u2019m angry because I stare at a Government\u2014an arrogant Government\u2014that pretends that the developed world\u2019s slowest vaccine roll-out is acceptable and, frankly, it\u2019s not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThis Government is overseeing a public policy disaster of epic proportions, and it\u2019s not good enough for the Government to say, \u201COh well, Mr Bishop\u2019s angry.\u201D Yeah, I am angry. This side\u2019s angry. We are angry, and I\u2019ll tell you what: if the Prime Minister were to visit Auckland and not just go to a manufacturer that never had to close, but if the Prime Minister walked down Ponsonby Road and went into the Longroom or went down to the Viaduct or went over to Takapuna, like I did on Sunday, she would discover anger and despair and venom, because people are furious. They have mortgaged their livelihoods just to get by, and they stare at a Government that has overseen the developed world\u2019s slowest vaccine roll-out, that was slow to order boosters, and now they\u2019re slow on vaccine certificates. The reason why Auckland remains the \u201CAuckland Prison\u201D is because of this Government\u2019s incompetence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ELet me talk about MIQ, because this bill is littered with the re-erection\u2014in fact, the reinforcement\u2014of the MIQ regime. Here are the facts. There are 4,000 people isolating at home right now in the North Island: 2,000 of them have COVID and the rest of them are close contacts. These are the numbers. There are 35 people in MIQ with COVID: 4,000 of them are in the community and three people have died in home isolation\u2014at home\u2014and yet this Government oversees a regime in which, when fully vaccinated travellers with no COVID arrive in New Zealand, do they go into home isolation? No, they go into MIQ. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo we have this perverse system where, if you come in without COVID, you take up a space in MIQ with the doctors and with the nurses and with the public health protection, and if you do have COVID and you need that support and you need the testing and you need the support of the nurses and the doctors, you\u2019re stuck at home. \u201CGood luck to you,\u201D says the Government. \u201CDon\u2019t go into MIQ. We\u2019re reserving the MIQ space for fully vaccinated people without COVID.\u201D How ludicrous is that? How bizarre, how perverse is that scenario? Fully vaccinated, no COVID: \u201CGood luck in your 14 days\u201D\u2014or now seven, but\u2014\u201Cyour seven days plus your three in MIQ.\u201D But if you\u2019ve got COVID: \u201CGood luck in the community.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIt is bizarre and it doesn\u2019t make any sense, and it\u2019s not lined up with the science, because Professor Michael Baker, who\u2019s the architect of the elimination strategy\u2014he agrees with us. He says that it doesn\u2019t make any sense and that those spaces would be better used for people who actually have COVID. We need to end MIQ right now, end the lottery of human misery and allow fully vaccinated Kiwis to come home. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EFinally, on private sector testing capability, the Minister says very blandly, \u201CWell, yeah, the bill allows us to requisition private sector capability and make use of all the capacity.\u201D Here\u2019s an idea: don\u2019t just give yourself the power as a Government to steal their property. Why don\u2019t you just negotiate and contract, which is what most normal Governments do? You\u2019ve got a contract with Asia Pacific Healthcare Group for nasal PCR testing. Do the same thing with Rako Science and the other testing providers. Rako can do 10,000 tests a day. I got one on the weekend. It took nine hours. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EHere\u2019s a point: while Aucklanders were waiting 10 hours to even get a test at the start of this most recent outbreak, Rako Science was saying to the Government, \u201CWe\u2019re prepared to help.\u201D, and the ministry told them, \u201CSod off. Don\u2019t requisition your testing capacity. We don\u2019t want you.\u201D What a disgrace\u2014just like this bill and just like this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022 data-id=\u00223e7768fe95dd4b339168872d7e74449c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e7768fe95dd4b339168872d7e74449c\u0022\u003EDr LIZ CRAIG (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. So, since the bill was passed in May last year, the COVID-19 Public Health Response Act has provided the framework for reducing the spread of COVID-19 in the community. But, moving forward, it\u2019s going to be important that we have the flexibility that we can adapt our approach, and what this bill does is allow us to do that. But what I\u2019d like to do is just talk to a couple of the changes that we\u2019ve made as a select committee, because we did receive some feedback and we have made some recommendations about changes to the bill. I think, as already spoken about, what the bill did was significantly increase the maximum infringement fees for those breaching orders, and, basically, they rose from $300, which wasn\u2019t seen as particularly a disincentive, up to $4,000 for individuals, and $12,000 for other persons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EBut what the bill also allows for is, what the Minister has referred to as, a sliding scale. It\u2019s, basically, regulations to be made which allow different penalties for different infringement offences, because it was never actually intended that that maximum level for the fee would apply to all offences, but to only those that cause the maximum amount of harm in the community. But what we heard were some concerns that, basically, what that high level of fees might do is entrench some inequities that were currently in the justice system. So what we\u2019ve done as a committee is looked at some extra protections that we could put in place. One of them is making sure that the Minister recommends the regulations be made, but also to specify in the bill some of those things that the Minister might need to do to consider before doing so. One of them is to make sure the Minister considers the severity and impact of those breaches, but also, basically, thinking about the appropriateness of the penalties for some of those particular groups that might be impacted\u2014and then, finally, also thinking about what comparable offences there might be when you\u2019re looking at other legislation. So it\u2019s really important to have those protections there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve also added some changes that would, basically, make it quite clear around the use of contact tracing information and that it shouldn\u2019t be used for other purposes than what it was intended for, which is a public health response. We\u2019ve recommended some penalties in that area. But this is, really, an important bill that allows us to have that flexibility and to prevent the spread of COVID-19 in the community. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002289909f914d044b82bf0642324c1fffb9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289909f914d044b82bf0642324c1fffb9\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of National as the MP for North Shore to talk on the COVID-19 Public Health Response Amendment Bill (No\u00A02), second reading. Obviously, as we\u2019ve heard just before from my colleague Christopher Bishop, National opposes this bill. I was part of the select committee team that has reviewed this bill, and what is clear is that this bill deals with the past and not the future. As a member of the select committee, along with my colleague Penny Simmonds as well, and I acknowledge the other members of the committee from the other side of the House and the chair, we went through a number of aspects of this bill. National also, obviously, opposed the bill and provided a minority report, which outlined the key reasons why we felt that this bill was simply unnecessary. I\u2019ll cover that in a little bit of detail in my speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI want to go back a little bit in terms of time, in terms of when this bill was presented, and that was on 21 September. I must say, a lot has changed in the way in which COVID is being managed within our communities across this country since this date. That is the reality of dealing with COVID. It is no surprise. We simply need to look overseas for the way in which this disease is changing and this virus is being managed. But the way in which this bill is being drafted is a bill that is drafted in a world that was in that past. A huge amount of things, significant aspects, in terms of the way in which we are managing this and the way in which we will manage this going forward, are not reflected in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThat is a great shame, because, as my colleague Christopher Bishop mentioned, in terms of the impact of this bill, this bill impacts our communities, and it is a grave shame that we are going to be pushing through some legislation that does not actually put a positive aspect in terms of what we could be doing at the moment\u2014seizing the opportunity that we have in front of us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe key aspect that has changed, obviously, since 21 September, is the introduction of, obviously, the traffic light system, which wasn\u2019t envisaged previously. I think that in itself has created a huge amount of confusion in terms of whether it\u2019s red, yellow, or green, or just flashing orange all the time. The fundamental changes around managed isolation and quarantine (MIQ)\u2014we heard the Minister, you know, just quite flippantly, I think, refer to the fact that MIQ is potentially going to be changed in the future. But, I think, 99.9 percent of Kiwis would look at the MIQ system for travellers that are coming in from overseas, that are double-vaccinated, that tested negative on departure\u201499.9\u00A0percent of sensible people would look at that and go, \u201CWhy the hell are we doing MIQ for those individuals?\u201D There is not any logic to that, and that is the frustration that is built into this bill and across a number of areas. I must say, as part of the process which we are going through, it is hugely frustrating to see a Government that is out of touch with the people. I want to cover a little bit more around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ENational opposes this bill for two specific reasons. One is in regards to clause 7 of the bill, and the introduction of new section 11, which relates to the COVID orders being able to be applied and require owners of businesses, and in particular laboratories, to, in effect, provide their services under Government directions. It also includes, in effect, the ability for the Government to nationalise, in effect, private businesses. And what we heard from the Minister before is that the circumstances in which these rules would ever be envisaged to be deployed are in extreme or severe circumstances. Well, I\u2019m sorry, the purpose of this House is not to simply introduce legislation for that one-in-a-thousand-day event that we may or may not see. It is actually to try and restrain the amount of legislation that we are putting in place, that allows our communities to get on and live their lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EWe seem to forget that for 91 days, members of our communities in Auckland, and until recently the Waikato, have been in lockdown. I recognise that the impact of that lockdown is much wider than Auckland and the Waikato. It impacts people in the Coromandel. It impacts people in Selwyn, in the Bay of Plenty, in Whang\u0101rei, around this country and here in Wellington as well. But this Government has simply ignored that fact in this bill, and what we are now paying for is the consequences of that inaction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI am worried about the mental health of our business owners across our country but particularly in my electorate of the North Shore. On Sunday afternoon, we met with numbers of hospitality business owners. And I hear the member from Northcote laughing across the other side. He has the audacity to laugh about such a serious topic. But members of that community, the hospitality community\u2014hairdressers and hair salons\u2014who have not had income for 91 days are paying the price of this Government\u2019s inaction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThis bill provides those people with no certainty. This bill provides those businesses with no hope. This bill provides those businesses, those real people, those human beings that are living in our biggest cities with families, with children, with obligations around mortgages, with financial commitments, with anxiety and stress that is growing and growing by the day, with no plan to move forward. That is the great irony and sadness about this bill. It fails to address the reality of what we face in the future, and it simply deals with a past that we are no longer part of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe other aspect of this bill that I wanted to raise is in regards to the MIQ facility, and I referred before to clause 22 of this bill in particular. We talked about the fact that the bill refers to changes in terms of MIQ and other aspects. The MIQ system for those international travellers that are double-vaccinated, that have a negative test, should be abolished today. It has no place in this country. And, as we\u2019ve heard, 4,000 people are isolating at home at the moment\u20142,000 of those with COVID, and only 35 have actually got COVID. What an absolute wasted opportunity. This Fortress New Zealand that we have\u2014this bill simply reinforces that fortress at a time when we should be starting to dismantle this fortress and get on with our lives and get back to normal. Why is that important? Because it is important for our communities to be able to move on, to have a sense of hope, and that is what\u2019s missing again from this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI want to refer also to clause 23 of the bill, which puts in place regulations for the Minister to set infringements. We had a lot of discussion in select committee around this point. Why are we trying to introduce more infringements, more fines, that may be appropriate in a highly restrictive environment, but, again, that is in the past; it is not the future. We are starting to relax those environments, relax some of those restrictions. Heck, the Minister and the Prime Minister can\u2019t even articulate when Aucklanders can actually get out of the city, when I can get down to the Waikato and see my mother and father, who I haven\u2019t seen for 91 days; my grandchildren to see their grandparents. There will be stories across this country and across Auckland of that, and that is real. The border element is completely unnecessary in regards to that, and the element around infringements, which have been increased in that, is a stick-stick-stick approach, which works well in the past but not in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI want to finish off by just acknowledging those members of my community in hospitality, and here and the businesses that have had no income. We in this House are thinking of you at the moment, and we are doing our damnedest to support and get you out of where you are and to where you need to be, and that\u2019s back into business. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022e33a75dfd08648c0bb45383cb85331f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e33a75dfd08648c0bb45383cb85331f4\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. As a member of the Health Committee, we considered several issues in relation to this bill, and I think there\u2019s two points that are worth highlighting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EThe first point is the bill increases the maximum penalties that can be imposed for a breach, and I think it is worth highlighting, because I don\u2019t think that we can overestimate that a breach of a COVID-19 order can cause huge harm and put all of our hard work at risk. And, to date, despite some of the protestations across the room, we have had one of the most successful responses to COVID-19 in the world by whichever metric you choose to define that\u2014certainly, by mortality rates, certainly by the low number of cases, let alone the buoyant economy, and let alone the low unemployment rate, and they all prove this. So there should be significant infringement fees and fines for those willing to purposely or repeatedly breach those very measures that enable our success.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ESecondly, the issue is about suitable precaution and preparedness. Should we face a severe outbreak, and a significant resurgence of the virus, one that threatens to overwhelm our public resources, then, I\u2019m sorry, it is all hands to the pump and people very rightly expect the Government to do everything possible to keep them safe, as we\u2019ve done to date. This bill allows the Government to use all of our testing, diagnostic testing capacity, by, yes, requisitioning some consumables, or, yes, requiring that private testing labs focus solely on COVID testing, bearing in mind that the bill also provides for suitable compensation and payment for service. Furthermore, these particular orders, as the Minister said, are not routinely used, and the threshold is incredibly high. It\u2019s for very serious risk for a limited time. People do expect that we\u2019re prepared if we need to be, and testing remains one of our most important tools. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022 data-id=\u0022da7972d2ff724bc9941598144a137a1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da7972d2ff724bc9941598144a137a1f\u0022\u003EDr ELIZABETH KEREKERE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora. I rise on behalf of the Greens to support his bill, the COVID-19 Public Health Response Amendment Bill (No 2). We initially only supported it to select committee because of the concerns we had about the infringement fees and that system. And so, as a member of the Health Committee, we were fine with the place that we got to with it. I agree that I hope that we do not need to use them for much longer, and we are strong proponents of restorative practices and other ways of dealing with people not wanting to take part in a certain thing and behave in a certain way. We believe in incentives and calling to peoples\u2019 best values and interests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EI wanted to speak briefly about the importance of a framework: that we have to balance between what we dealt with just prior to this, which is a whole lot of orders and details which have already occurred, already in effect, and we are retrospectively approving them, to being flexible enough to change with what\u2019s happening, because it\u2019s moving so, so fast. We look at the things that are written here now and we\u2019ve moved so far beyond some of it. That framework needs to allow that agility while still holding our Government to account in this place here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003ESo, for managed isolation and quarantine (MIQ), we absolutely understand the frustration. I have so many family members trying to get home who\u2019ve had tickets, who\u2019ve had bookings, and then they get cancelled. So that lack of surety\u2014and this bill covers people\u2019s behaviour in that place. We\u2019re suggesting that all those things that lead into why people behave in a certain way also need to be taken into account. We support more recent decisions to make that stay shorter. I believe that alone will improve the morale of people inside MIQ facilities no end. We very much want to get to the point where people who are fully vaccinated and have negative tests can go home as soon as possible, and all of our wh\u0101nau\u2014all of the New Zealanders who are wanting to come here\u2014should be able to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EWe see that this law also allows the Minister the discretion to prioritise between different classes of people coming in. This now, surely, is the opportunity to reunite split families. For a very, very long time, we\u2019ve had people coming to us and saying, \u201CWhat is the rationale? We cannot understand why this is still happening.\u201D And so we want to make sure, if the Minister is going to prioritise that, to unite split families, and we want to advocate for the health and education workers who have been approved to come here and are still waiting to get a place. Our hospital and our health system was already overloaded before COVID hit us, and with all of the gaps and vacancies now that are going to happen across many sectors because of people refusing the mandate to get vaccinated. So we want to make sure that, as soon as we can, we can get our people home and we can create spaces for the people that we need to come and work here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re very happy to see the delegation of our roading enforcement powers that\u2019s going to allow M\u0101ori wardens and other iwi representatives to have roles in helping protect their community. In the Tai R\u0101whiti and, I\u2019m sure, many others areas where there are low vaccination rates, we are really, really worried about the commitment that Aucklanders can all travel by Christmas. We\u2019re worried that many people will slip through, and they\u2019re all coming to the holiday destinations\u2014the Tai R\u0101whiti amongst them. So we see that this allows for us to have iwi checkpoints, which the Greens have always supported, and the right of wh\u0101nau to protect their members while our vaccinations continue to rise, albeit slowly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EAnd the last thing is we did have the opportunity to talk about these penalties, and we will always go for lower penalties, greater incentives. This was discussed at length. We did bring in the officials and sent them away a few times to get more information for us, but we did agree in the end that where we got to was workable. We are concerned. We will be watching for any profiling that happens, because, in other parts of our justice system where there are fines, penalties, convictions, M\u0101ori are disproportionately affected by that. So we will absolutely be keeping a watch on that in this case. But, n\u014D reira, we commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u002268b2f3c597c4497eaf905778c5efe7b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268b2f3c597c4497eaf905778c5efe7b1\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on behalf of ACT in opposition to this COVID-19 Public Health Response Amendment Bill (No\u00A02). This bill is a really sad day for the evolution of New Zealand\u2019s COVID-19 response. It has to be seen in that wider context. Let me give you a Cook\u2019s tour of how we got here, where we need to go, and where this bill is taking us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003ENo country had greater natural advantages in dealing with a pandemic than New Zealand. You don\u2019t have to take my word for it. I\u2019ve asked the Minister for COVID-19 Response to name a country that had more advantages than New Zealand, and he couldn\u2019t think of one. If he can\u2019t think of one, then I don\u2019t think anyone can, because no country has New Zealand\u2019s combination of isolation, of low population density, a young population, a population that has high social capital, where, if the Prime Minister says, \u201COh look, it\u2019s pretty bad; just go home for seven weeks, put a teddy bear in your window, and we\u2019ll call you.\u201D, people actually do it. Now, you try doing that in France or Italy! We have a country that is wealthy compared with most countries. Our country was prepared and in a better place to respond to COVID than any other country, and we were the 63rd country to get a case; so we actually had time to prepare. But even then, the Government didn\u2019t. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003ELet me take you back to the days of 21 March, 23 March, and 25 March of 2020. Those were the days that the Government announced the alert level system\u20141, 2, 3, 4\u2014put New Zealand on Monday the 21st into alert level 3 and on Wednesday put New Zealand into alert level 4. And in those days, when the rest of the country was already dealing with it, and we\u2019d been lucky so far, this Government said, \u201CWe think we have to flatten the curve.\u201D Even the elimination strategy was not deliberate; they actually stumbled into it. A few weeks in, the Prime Minister thought, \u201COh, I think we could completely eradicate it.\u201D, and we did. And we, as a country, enjoyed a long summer, both metaphorically and literally, with very little COVID, afforded by our ocean fortress, with the Tasman, the Southern, and the Pacific Oceans protecting us from COVID. Three times we managed to beat back outbreaks, in August, in February, and again later in 2021. We managed to have an outbreak and eradicate it, and that was a good thing, helped by our natural advantages. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EBut the Government, at that point, like a lot of people who are lucky, started to think it must be all us and they got a bit complacent. They didn\u2019t increase the number of ICU beds. They didn\u2019t think, \u201CGee, we should order some of those vaccines everyone else is ordering.\u201D And, when they did order them, they didn\u2019t think, \u201CHmm, everybody\u2019s got a QR code scanning app on their phone. Maybe there should be a QR code in the vaccine booths so that people can make an electronic record that might come in handy a bit later if we want vaccine certificates.\u201D They didn\u2019t think of any of those sorts of things, and suddenly something else came along: Delta. And, when we were hit by Delta, the Government was helter-skelter. They did not make the preparations for this new paradigm. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThe Prime Minister, in question time today, was saying, \u201CWe don\u2019t have Alpha anymore; we have Delta.\u201D It was like she was shell-shocked, like she\u2019d just figured it out now. I mean, it was quite extraordinary. I think it takes a while for things to sink in with our Prime Minister. That is the sad truth, charismatic as she may be. The problem was that the Government got a bit complacent and they thought they were going to hit a perfect home run. Here\u2019s what they thought, and I know this to be true because I had a special briefing from the Minister for COVID-19 with my good friend and colleague Chris Bishop, and Ayesha Verrall, who I really like because she\u2019s very honest and probably shouldn\u2019t be in politics, said in that briefing, \u201CDoesn\u2019t matter. We\u2019re going to have the vaccine.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288e65f136e8845f5bc1e191088683b77\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228784142feb314ca0ae3bf12219cad248\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: You see, this Government thought\u2014oh, and the great thing is, I say to Chris Bishop, the Prime Minister offered me another briefing. So I went along to Chris\u2019s briefing, and I think that I should take him along to the briefing the Prime Minister\u2019s promised me. So we\u2019re looking forward to that new briefing. But, nevertheless, I digress. You see, they thought they were going to hit this home run. The vaccine was going to give population immunity and the managed isolation and quarantine (MIQ) would keep the virus out, so we would be able to go all the way through with no problems, and the Labour Government, with the Midas touch, would sail through and say, \u201CWe had almost no outbreak, almost no deaths, almost no impact. It was all good.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EBut, unfortunately, two things went wrong. One was the Delta variant that broke through MIQ. And the second was the vaccines weren\u2019t quite perfect. Now, Madam Speaker, I know you probably read ACT\u2019s COVID 2.0 paper back in March that said there are mega trends driving this pandemic now. One is vaccines, the other is variants, and the other ones were technologies and fatigue. Well, hasn\u2019t come true. We have a problem now where the variant meant Delta got through the border and the vaccines haven\u2019t been done in time, and we don\u2019t have the vaccine passports; so we\u2019re actually stuck, unable to move to the traffic light system, and New Zealanders are now paying and paying and paying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI could give you story after story, having visited Auckland a couple of weeks ago and walked around and visited real shops\u2014not staged photo ops like the Prime Minister\u2014just walking up to people and saying, \u201CHow are you going?\u201D and hearing what real people had to say. I heard, for example, someone who was an accountant, and he said, \u201CI probably shouldn\u2019t tell you this, but I\u2019ve got a hairdresser who, on my books at the start of this outbreak on the 18th of August, had 100 grand in the bank, cash, ready to handle anything. Now they\u2019re in debt. They\u2019ve burnt all their cash reserves, keeping their staff in some level of wages, and paying their rent and their insurance and their bills. And now they are broke and they don\u2019t even know when they\u2019re going to be able to open.\u201D That\u2019s the effect of a Government that just was not prepared to deal with Delta. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EAlong comes this bill, and this bill\u2014here\u2019s what it could do. It could be saying that COVID is going to be endemic, everyone in New Zealand will get it, and the question is how safely we transition, how able we are to protect lives, how long it takes, and how much costs we stack on to Government and business and future taxpayers in the meantime. Those are the only things that matter. This bill could be taking us on a pathway to get vaccination rates up in those final few percentage points with incentives and partnerships. It could be about using new technology. But it\u2019s not about any of that. It is about reinforcing the command and control approach of locking down and locking out\u2014party like it\u2019s March 2020. That\u2019s where this Government\u2019s mind-set is still at. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EWe heard from the Minister\u2014I mean, one of the most extraordinary things in this bill is that it, basically, allows the Government to take people\u2019s property if they are a testing lab. It\u2019s a little bit like, if you wanted there to be lots of generators\u2014I heard Eric Crampton say\u2014if you wanted lots of generators in your community in case there was a power cut, imagine if the Government passed a law saying: if there is a power cut, we\u2019ll confiscate your generator. What\u2019s that going to do to investment in generators? What do you think it\u2019s going to do to people investing in lab technology in New Zealand if you live in a country where the Government can just take it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EAnd the Minister\u2014I mean, one of the Labour members\u2014I sometimes find they\u2019re interchangeable. But one of them said, \u201CLook, there\u2019s compensation.\u201D Well, it says compensation at the market rate. What\u2019s the market rate, Shanan Halbert, in the middle of a crisis? How do you set that market rate? Oh, and once that rate\u2019s been set, there\u2019s no court of appeal. Now, I think Shanan Halbert is a lawyer, I think. Now, he should surely know that usually you\u2019re allowed to appeal. This legislation means you can\u2019t appeal beyond the District Court. Taking that property is totally outrageous, and the Government says it\u2019s because testing is so important. Well, here\u2019s the question: if I\u2019m in New South Wales, I can go to the pharmacy and buy a rapid antigen test; I can\u2019t do that here, and yet this Government says testing is so important. This bill could be legalising rapid antigen testing for everybody, but it\u2019s not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003ESadly, we have a Government that is stuck in 2020, lets people pay and pay, putting forward legislation that kicks the can down the road while people keep suffering. That\u2019s why ACT cannot support this bill. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002212b3a15539c64b1c946392b2bec84acd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002212b3a15539c64b1c946392b2bec84acd\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Sarah Pallett. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7abe2c9e53640239841fe0cf9f8782b\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, this\u2019ll be good \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc9f78428c234f9dab3c39a8fd379e43\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc9f78428c234f9dab3c39a8fd379e43\u0022\u003ESARAH PALLETT (Labour\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m glad you\u2019re looking forward to it, Mr Seymour! Thank you, Madam Speaker. I was going to rise and go through the finer points of one of the amendments that the select committee had suggested, but I thought, before I did, it would be a really good idea to a little teeny bit of the \u201Cwhy?\u201D, because I think, when you\u2019re looking at legislation, why you\u2019re doing it in the first place is a really good idea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003ESo what I think is that any Government\u2019s primary responsibility is to keep their people safe. That\u2019s their primary job, is to maybe stop them dying. So let\u2019s look at the facts: in the UK, 165,534 people have died with COVID-19 as the cause of death. If we do a little bit of basic maths and adjusting for population that would mean 12,353 New Zealanders would have COVID-19 on their death certificate as a cause of death. Now, the 35 that we\u2019ve lost is a complete tragedy, and I\u2019m never ever going to minimise the effect on their wh\u0101nau or of the people who love them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EAnd, Mr Watts, I\u2019m sorry to hear that you haven\u2019t been able to see your family for 91 days; it\u2019s very sad, and I appreciate that the sacrifice is really huge. I haven\u2019t seen my dad for two years, and it\u2019s going to be some time before I do; so I really do understand the frustrations\u2014I understand the frustrations. My heart goes out to those businesses who\u2019ve been affected. But those 12,300 people, those are the reason, they are the reason why this Government has been taking the action it has, and why it has been so successful, and I\u2019m proud to stand here today in support of this bill and commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u00221a7e5168df8440e986d6c34146f7127c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a7e5168df8440e986d6c34146f7127c\u0022\u003EDr SHANE RETI (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Pleasure to take a split call on this bill, which, fundamentally, in the legislative statement, says this bill amends the COVID-19 Act to incorporate what has been learned about the COVID-19 pandemic to date. I want to talk about what hasn\u2019t been learned. We have not been a learning enterprise during this whole COVID-19 response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EI want to start with the Government\u2019s own independent Roche report on 1 June, where they asked independent advisers to advise\u2014and remember COVID Part II hadn\u2019t arrived yet; Delta hadn\u2019t arrived\u2014and here\u2019s what they were told. They were told that the classification system that says \u201Cclose contact\u201D and \u201Cclose contact plus\u201D, and \u201Ccasual contact\u201D and \u201Ccasual contact plus\u201D was far too complex; it needed to change\u2014immediately was the time frame\u2014to close and casual. Did that happen? Has it happened? No, it has not. In fact, what happened was another category was created called \u201Chigh risk\u201D. So it completely ignored the recommendations from the independent committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThey were told that ARPHS\u2014Auckland Regional Public Health Service\u2014which is the responsible body for managing the COVID-19 response in Auckland, needed to increase by 25 FTEs within three months\u2019 time. They were even told what sort of classifications were required, what sort of job descriptions. What I can tell from written questions to the Minister is clearly that did not happen before the 17 August outbreak was announced. They were understaffed, so understaffed that, if I look at the action report\u2014so the outbreak started on 17 August\u2014if I look at the action report No. 3, which is 3\u00A0September, it talks here about the welfare of staff. So this is 18 days into the current outbreak. Here\u2019s what it says under \u201CWelfare\u201D: \u201CMonitor staff wellbeing\u2014ARPHS response staff are tired and stressed from the demands of dealing with COVID-affected cases and contacts. (Many are in a distressed state.)\u201D That\u2019s only 18 days into this outbreak. So I inquired a bit further of that with the Minister and asked him, in a written parliamentary question that I got back last week, \u201CIs it correct that in the action report for 3 September 2021, less than 20 days into the current coronavirus outbreak, it is reported that many ARPHS staff are \u2018in a distressed state\u2019?\u201D\u2014\u201CNo, the phrase was referring to COVID-19 - affected cases and their contacts.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EYou\u2019ve got to be joking; you have to be joking. Let me just read that again from the action report 3 September, subsection \u201CWelfare\u201D: \u201CMonitor staff wellbeing\u2014ARPHS response staff are tired and stressed from the demands of dealing with COVID-affected cases and contacts. (Many are in a distressed state.)\u201D To the Minister, \u201CWere staff in a distressed state?\u201D\u2014no, they were talking about affected cases and contacts! That\u2019s just not possible. What happened here was ARPHS were undermanned. They did not listen to the Roche report, 1 June. They did not take on the 25 full-time equivalents as they were requested to do within three months. A shout out to the really difficult work that ARPHS is doing. They were also told to build the infrastructure. This is clearly a story around ICU infrastructure for another time because there are other things we can talk to in this bill, which I do want to talk to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThis bill talks to laboratory testing, and we\u2019ve already mentioned the abysmal case of saliva testing, and I have a real concern that rapid antigen testing is going the same way. But I want to talk to the laboratory tests for the two Northland women who started off the Northland outbreak. What I don\u2019t understand is why the results were lost for 48 hours. For 48 hours, their lab tests disappeared from the laboratory system. What happened here? I asked the Minister and asked him to explain that and said, \u201CCan you tell me what happened to those test results for those two women who first came into Northland?\u201D He said, \u201CI\u2019m advised both cases were tested in the late evening on 20 October.\u201D No, they weren\u2019t. It was before lunchtime on 20 October\u201420 October was a Wednesday. The Minister is saying they were tested late on the Wednesday. No, they weren\u2019t. I\u2019ve got the date timestamp from the machine. At 11:58 that day, the lab tests were in the laboratory\u2014not just being picked up; in the laboratory\u2014and they disappeared for two days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003ENow, maybe it\u2019s just two days in Northland? No, it\u2019s not. Because, on the Friday, they were able to do a lab test within 90 minutes. What happened to those two women\u2019s lab tests for those two days? The lab machine has caught you out. The date timestamp has caught out the Minister. We need to know the truth. There needs to be sunlight on what is happening with laboratory testing in Northland, and you\u2019ve been caught out with these two women. It\u2019s another story for another time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d153032f226d454890356148aef6293c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d153032f226d454890356148aef6293c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the next speaker, could he clarify whether he is seeking the call that the M\u0101ori Party didn\u2019t take or whether he is seeking his 10-minute call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022541c9c2044794832bf12a2ece9bd4fd6\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: My 10-minute call, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ce6b8e1fead40fa9328cf395b48301e\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I call Tangi Utikere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00225817c91e42f842598a0fb80ca1835723\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225817c91e42f842598a0fb80ca1835723\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Kia orana. I rise, as a member of the Health Committee, to speak in support of this bill. I want to reflect on the contribution of my colleague Sarah Pallett, because I think she put it rather succinctly and ideally spot on, and that is: what is the purpose of this bill? Fundamentally, when the Minister and when the Director-General of Health is looking to make orders, exercise discretion under the legislation, they are doing that in order to keep the community safe, to keep our community safe. And, fundamentally, that\u2019s what this bill is about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe select committee spent some time looking at this bill, and there are a number of changes that have been selected, and aspects of clarity as well. One is around the restrictions on the movement of people in managed isolation and quarantine (MIQ) facilities and ensuring that what is captured there in new section 11, set out in clause 7, includes those in self-isolation; so it widens the definition. Another, when we look at the select committee report, is around the level of support available for those in self-isolation opportunities, because, while this bill provides an opportunity for an internal complaints process for those in MIQ, there is a different approach for those that are in self-isolation situations. So you\u2019ll see, in the select committee\u2019s report to the House, that there is an expectation that there would be timely responses for those who perhaps have a complaint to make, to ensure that that is considered in a timely fashion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe other aspect that I want to briefly touch on is around clause 12, and it\u2019s extending the power to stop motor vehicles and people at checkpoints and roadblocks. I just want to acknowledge the good work that our M\u0101ori wardens and our Pasifika wardens do in our community, because they are mentioned specifically in the bill. We\u2019ve all had our experience in a positive light in that sense even more recently, and so it\u2019s good to see and to hear at the select committee that there is a level of training so that there\u2019s comfort there. So I\u2019m delighted to be able to commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u0022a463d9a8554848629807aca06c3e4d10\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a463d9a8554848629807aca06c3e4d10\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise to speak in opposition to the COVID-19 Public Health Response Amendment Bill (No 2) at the second reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EThe Health Committee, which I am a member of, heard a number of submissions in a very short space of time over the consultation period for this amendment bill. We heard a number of people speak very pessimistically about the signals given with the extension of the expiry date of the Act by a year, from May 2022 out to May 2023. The concerns that lockdowns, managed isolation and quarantine (MIQ), alert levels, etc. might extend through to May 2023 were certainly a very sobering thought for many. We also heard concerns about the strengthening of the infringement regime. We heard worries that the significant increases might impact on those who could least afford it. And we also heard concerns about the enforcement of stopping vehicles at checkpoints and how that might also continue on to 2023.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ENational opposes this bill not only because of the things that were brought up in the submissions but also because, fundamentally, this bill is already out of date. It was out of date in September, when it was referred to the Health Committee. All throughout the bill was talk of the elimination strategy, which by that time was clearly out of date. Further matters that have come in since that time in terms of a new traffic-light system, changes in MIQ, and, hopefully, more fundamental changes than are in at the moment, a vaccine certificate regime\u2014none of these things are being accounted for in the elimination strategy and in this amendment bill. What it shows is that this Government did not use the advantages that this country had in preparing for Delta and moving into this suppression phase. So the bill was written around a world in which elimination was the aim of the Government. We\u2019ve been left scrambling in this country over the last few months, with rushed announcements, announcements about announcements, changes of systems, and general confusion for all involved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EThe bill\u2019s been predicated on a situation where we have to have highly restrictive border settings continuing through into the foreseeable future, all at a time when countries all across the world are opening up their borders. We only need to look across the Ditch at Australia and see opening up not only to Australians coming home but to international students who are able to come in without MIQ, if they are fully vaccinated. In the meantime, we are still looking at MIQ where our fully vaccinated returning New Zealanders are having to go into isolation, while out in the community those with COVID are at home isolating. National believes that we should now be looking at legislation which dismantles MIQ for fully vaccinated travellers. We should be looking at pulling down the borders, not legislation that is continuing on an outdated time in this COVID recovery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EWe heard submissions particularly around clause 7, which enables COVID-19 orders\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e87f5251e91b4e568d3bd7cbf5461249\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! [Member in the Chamber not socially distancing] Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fed1d31b1be4f49a28cd18e520fa172\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Madam Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f986fd7a38840bb96e9fafe28c2919a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Penny Simmonds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f26ff91377d48ed9b927d0df7aca7d1\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. We heard a considerable number of submissions around clause 7, which allows COVID-19 orders to be made which requisition testing consumables and resources from private labs. We also heard the situation in Australia, where, right from the start of the COVID-19 pandemic, there were private and public partnership meetings to ensure that the Government knew about the inventory that was held right across both public and private laboratories, they knew when there would be pinch points identified for resources, and they knew what alternatives could be considered for testing. But in New Zealand, that didn\u2019t happen. So we didn\u2019t have that sharing of information, that private-public partnership sharing, right from the start, and so now we see a clause which will enable the Government to take that testing equipment when they need it from private laboratories. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EWe also need to look at the Auckland situation and understand that the Auckland situation is entirely due to this Government\u2019s handling of the pandemic over the last year. The slow vaccination roll-out and the slow process to get vaccination certificates are fairly and squarely in the hands of this Government. It must be heartbreaking for Auckland businesses and Auckland individuals to know that they are in this situation because this Government did not do its job. People are sick of it and they are angry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EI have heard people up and down the country\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022044e9957591b4b749a8cbd6e4da891a1\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290ea6564a35d4daaacc679c369f52fbc\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and I see the member across the aisle laughing, and I suspect that there are many people in Auckland who find that incredibly disrespectful. People are angry because they are sick and tired of this Government telling them what to do, telling them that they can\u2019t run their businesses, telling them that they can\u2019t move out of their regions, when this Government didn\u2019t do what it should have done, when this Government did not do its own job, but instead they want to tell other people how to do theirs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EI can understand why this Government doesn\u2019t see the issues for businesses. They haven\u2019t run businesses. They don\u2019t know how difficult it is to deal with cash flow. They don\u2019t know how difficult it is to pay wage bills or meet tax bills. And they simply don\u2019t care. They sit across the other side and laugh when we bring that up. It is an insult to those people in Auckland who are risking and losing so much. We have heard of businesses where they have put all their reserves into trying to keep their businesses going, and they still know nothing about when they are going to be able to open. I hesitate to talk about businesses in the South, but I do it in the context of saying that even at level 2, hospitality and tourism businesses are struggling to make ends meet. So I fear for Auckland businesses that they are hoping they will get an incredible bump when they finally can start operating, but if it\u2019s anything like what we have seen, it will be a very slow and hard crawl out of their situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EI also want to touch on the lost health opportunities, or the costs to our other health services: the tens of thousands of operations that have been cancelled; the undiagnosed cancer that is still there, it just hasn\u2019t been diagnosed yet. I think about our head of obstetrics at Invercargill hospital, and the ridiculous situation we were in with that person who was so critical to our maternity care in Southland, three times having to try to get his MIQ places to get back. The costs across our health sector\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c6dcf110bc1418cb1950999df0c10ef\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9b917df31d44028836e1fecd9126892\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9b917df31d44028836e1fecd9126892\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Sadly, can I open this week by saying there is nothing worse in this House than being \u201CInvercargill-splained\u201D by the member Penny Simmonds, or, in the first speech of the day from the Opposition, being \u201CBish-splained\u201D, when we stand here, and I stand here this afternoon as an Aucklander and somebody that has sat in lockdown since 17 August. Can I acknowledge every other Aucklander that is in this House this afternoon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EWhat\u2019s worse is that my fellow member from the North Shore, Simon Watts, also criticises this Government\u2019s effort but has failed over those three months to even lift a finger to help lift vaccination rates on the North Shore, and lift testing rates. These are the things that a local MP does in order to help the efforts. This bill\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200a56b2782d64852a9467bcc57f4a50b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! We\u2019ll just calm things down a bit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223021f7bcf1e4aec8a160799b4dcdc23\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Speaking calmly, this bill is a public health response, and what we\u2019ve forgotten in this discussion this afternoon is that in Auckland, for those of us who have been locked down since 17 August, there have been 6,000 cases of COVID-19. Can I remind the House that on 17 August, we had something called the Birkdale cluster. It all started with the Birkdale cluster, and we saw rapid growth of COVID-19 across Auckland\u2019s North Shore and then out to Auckland, and particularly out to our most vulnerable communities in South Auckland. That is the reality that we have lived in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EWhat this bill does is adjust our laws, and our response, to ensure that the experiences that us Aucklanders have faced over the past three months\u2014people protesting, can I remind us, laws that haven\u2019t kept people staying home, which doesn\u2019t support the public health effort that we\u2019ve been trying to achieve. I\u2019m very, very proud that we have continued to vaccinate\u2014vaccinate, vaccinate, vaccinate; all of us. We are part of the effort to lift vaccinations as a part of Super Saturday. I didn\u2019t see my North Shore colleagues at Super Saturday, can I just say, but now at Waitemat\u0101 DHB, we are in a very, very good position\u201493 percent of first doses; 86 percent second doses. Without vaccination, as Aucklanders, we cannot move. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022db06533aed3a41049e4e6ba6d832b747\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the COVID-19 Public Health Response Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 45\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000370\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ba0b9b01cbf0493ca919347ec769f862\u0022\u003ECrown Minerals (Decommissioning and Other Matters) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ed81a071d6074c2da14ca2e8a2987dde\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9928e054cb04007a3b53e06147e3d3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9928e054cb04007a3b53e06147e3d3f\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Energy and Resources):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to present a legislative statement on the Crown Minerals (Decommissioning and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f37a63c8897c46d78187a7bb6a4926b9\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave has been sought for that course of action. Is there any objection? There is none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022366edce2461d481c9a15a72cd1c0be20\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: I move, that the Crown Minerals (Decommissioning\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d584aa1725d4e2f93970410e5c1038f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: I beg your pardon. Sorry, that was me. So leave is sought. That legislative statement is published under the order of the House and it can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdae097cde6f437c9d24374564166ef4\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I move, That the Crown Minerals (Decommissioning and Other Matters) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EToday, we\u2019re discussing a bill designed to strengthen New Zealand\u2019s regulation of decommissioning. The cost of decommissioning varies, but can be substantial and run into the hundreds and millions of dollars. If a permit or licence holder cannot afford to carry out this work, then the cost lands on the taxpayer. This is not theoretical; this happened here in New Zealand in April 2020, when the Crown needed to take on responsibility for the decommissioning of the Tui oilfield after the operator Tamarind Taranaki Ltd went into legislation. When we first came into Government in 2018, we fixed the legislative loophole that existed that allowed for this to occur, and this bill is a further protection for the taxpayers of New Zealand from having to pick up the costs for this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe Crown had to set aside $155 million for this decommissioning, based on a 2015 study decommissioned by the previous permit holder. We\u2019ve made good progress on that decommissioning, but the costs have greatly exceeded those original estimates and further funding was needed to be appropriated in Budget 2021. This scenario highlights the importance of clarifying that petroleum permit and licence holders are responsible for decommissioning. We must get our regulatory settings right to ensure funds are set aside for decommissioning while petroleum is being produced and profits are being made. Globally, Governments are turning their attention towards planning for decommissioning and New Zealand should be no exception.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo the bill amends the Crown Minerals Act of 1991. The aim of these changes is to mitigate the risk to the taxpayer of having to stump up with the funding for the decommissioning, and this bill does this in three separate ways. Firstly, it clarifies who is responsible for the decommissioning, what they are responsible for, and that there will be consequences for failing to fulfil these responsibilities. It seeks to encourage all permit holders to carefully consider who they transfer to, by introducing perpetual liability. Second, it also enables a proactive approach to monitoring permit and licence holders\u2019 financial positions and provides the regulator with enhanced oversight of planning under way for decommissioning. Third, while most operators want to do the right thing and plan for decommissioning, financial situations can and do change. That is why the bill that we have in front of us introduces the additional requirement that permit and licence holders must establish a financial security which can be used to fund and carry out decommissioning in the event that things do go wrong. The bill also requires a permit and licence holder to make a payment or provide a financial security that could be put towards the cost of any post-decommissioning work that is required. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe committee received 23 written submissions, which were supplemented by 11 oral submissions. I want to thank the committee for the work that they did on this bill. There was general agreement that the rules governing the petroleum sector\u2019s responsibility for decommissioning needed to be strengthened. Concerns were raised, particularly by industry participants in the oil and gas sector, in relation to the impact this bill could have on future investment in the petroleum sector and the security of gas, but this bill is simply clarifying the existing expectation that exists, that decommissioning forms an important part of the petroleum life cycle. There were also concerns about how certain provisions will affect the existing petroleum permit and licence holders. The fundamental of the bill\u2014that decommissioning must be carried out and funded by those who held the permit or licence\u2014is not a new requirement in the New Zealand regulatory regime. I appreciate that some of the requirements will be new\u2014for example, the requirement to hold a financial security.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe three aspects of the bill which drew the majority of attention were the perpetual liability, criminal liability for directors, and the requirement to make post-decommissioning payments. Several submitters raised concerns with the provisions that implement perpetual liability\u2014that is, holding a former permit holder liable for the costs of decommissioning if the current permit holder fails to pay. The committee recommended retaining perpetual liability on the basis that this would only be used as a last resort. The committee did take on board the recommendations of some submitters to clarify the implementation of these provisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe bill also introduces a criminal penalty for knowingly failing to decommission. This is reserved for the most serious breaches and could apply to individuals, including directors in companies. Some submitters argued that this is not justified and expressed particular concern about the potential for a director to be criminally liable years after the company had transferred out of a permit. The select committee has recommended limiting this provision so that only directors of current permit or licence holders can be held criminally liable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe provisions that enable funds to be collected for the post-decommissioning also attracted some attention for being a new levy or tax. I do not consider it to be either of these. It will not be a blanket fee calculated using a generic formula; instead, I propose it is determined based on the assessment of risk. The committee did not recommend removing the requirement entirely, as some submitters suggested. In response to the submissions, the committee made amendments so that the companies that still exist in New Zealand may propose a financial security. Most petroleum permits and licences in New Zealand are held by limited liability subsidiaries. I do not expect these companies will exist years from now when problems around decommissioned wells and infrastructure may arise and potentially fall on the taxpayers of New Zealand, and so this is why we require either a cash payment or a financial security that can be used for any future post-decommissioning work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe committee also considered further advice from the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment in response to additional analysis carried out after the bill was introduced. This included proposals which were considered to contribute to the overall aim of mitigating the risk to the Crown or to improve the implementation of the provision. Among others, changes were made to the penalties and enforcement tools and to introduce a penalty for the failure to make payments towards post-decommissioning. This was to make clear that where there was an obligation to do something, we would expect it to be complied with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo in closing, I do want to thank all those who have been involved in every aspect of this bill. It\u2019s encouraging to hear that there was support for what we are trying to achieve here. While there may not be consensus on how we achieve it, I hope that parties are reassured that this bill has been thoroughly considered and views have been listened to. The aim is to provide a flexible approach to regulation which will allow requirements to be implemented in a proportionate way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThis bill tackles a very difficult question we have about the legacy of oil and gasfields as we look to our future, but in other ways it is very simple. It is putting in place measures to reduce the risks that the costs of decommissioning or further remediation work will entirely fall on the Crown or the taxpayers of New Zealand. I commend this bill to the House. It will modernise and improve the regulation of decommissioning and bring New Zealand into line with international best practice established by like-minded countries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00222517b7e2cf2b4d16977656632f5dd7d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222517b7e2cf2b4d16977656632f5dd7d9\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki - King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. This Crown Minerals (Decommissioning and Other Matters) Amendment Bill will bring another blow to energy affordability and security in New Zealand. When the Minister just said that there was support for what the Government is doing in this bill, I think that was a step too far. There is support for decommissioning from the industry, and the industry came into the select committee and have no problem with their responsibilities around decommissioning, but this bill is absolutely a step too far. Most bills have consequences, and the consequence of this bill is going to be like other bills that this Government has done: it is going to drive investment out of this industry, and before we know it, the energy security of this country, as we\u2019ve seen in many things that this Government has done in the last four years, is detrimental to our future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EAs I said, the industry wants to decommission. The industry acknowledges the responsibility of the petroleum sector to decommission, but this bill is an absolute overreach. The National Party supported this bill at the first reading because we wanted to go into the select committee. We believe in a process with legislation where you give the industry a chance to have a say, and the say was that this was a complete overreach. It was based on one bad experience. Last sitting block I was in the House talking about another bill that was based on one bad experience when a livestock ship overturned\u2014a maritime accident. So one thing goes wrong and this Government goes into ban mode: \u201CLet\u2019s ban it. Let\u2019s overreach. Let\u2019s do whatever we can to destroy the industry.\u201D I think that\u2019s actually part of the plan with this bill, actually, because that\u2019s what we\u2019ve seen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThe financial requirements and penalties for companies decommissioning here are disproportionate to the risk. The bill is applied retrospectively and impacts on existing permit and licence holders, altering their rights and duties\u2014some of these have been in place for decades. It will reduce New Zealand\u2019s appeal as a location for petroleum investment and could also reduce our attractiveness for other investments because of these retrospective liabilities. The Minister said that the world is watching what is going on here. This is the most far-reaching piece of legislation in the world. So guess what, if these companies are going to go somewhere, they\u2019re going to look around the world and they\u2019re going to go, \u201CWhere are we welcome? Oh no, that\u2019s right. First of all New Zealand closed us down for business, and now they\u2019re putting these retrospective rules on us. They\u2019re looking at perpetuity. Why would we go there? We\u2019re certainly not going to go there.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThe comments that we got back in select committee\u2014and it was really interesting, because I\u2019ve been in select committees where Ministers are open to ideas and participants in select committees ask lots of questions and try to make a bill a better bill. Well, this wasn\u2019t the case with this bill. The Opposition members were asking lots of questions, and we were trying to make it a better bill, but unfortunately no one was listening on the other side. So the Government is always wanting to be the first and the best in the world; we hear it again and again and again. We heard it in question time today. Never hear them talking about how the agricultural industry is actually number one for zero-carbon readiness. Never ever hear them talking about things that they don\u2019t want to talk about where we\u2019re the best in the world, but of course they want to be the first and the best in the world, and this proposal is stricter and leaves us with the highest level of regulation. And there are no other known directors in New Zealand who are bound to the requirements that this bill requires. We heard that from submitters that came in the room. In fact, I specifically asked the submitters if there were any other directors in this country that would be submitted to the requirements that this bill imposes on the directors of this industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThe costs of this greatly outweigh the benefits. Each year the industry contributes around $2.5 billion to the New Zealand economy. It brings in about $750 million worth of export receipts. It generates approximately $500 million in royalties and income tax for the Crown. Now, it is adding value to this country, and even the Climate Change Commission has said that we are going to need gas to take us through into the future, because we have a black hole coming in this country when it comes to energy, I predict, and I\u2019m not talking about coal but it will be filled up with coal. We\u2019ve burnt more coal in three months of this year than we burnt in the whole of 2016 and 2017. We know we need gas to help us get through to 2035. The Climate Change Commission knows we need gas to help us get through this transition period, which Government actually defines transition as: \u201CWell, let\u2019s ban, let\u2019s cut things off, and let\u2019s figure out what\u2019s going to happen in the middle and let the lights go off.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fa010423b4146d1b250b1c6fb02232d\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Have you read the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fce0a84f5c2441a9c38e3c70b76b405\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014because that\u2019s actually what\u2019s going to happen. And we\u2019ve got a member over there, Duncan Webb, who actually asks if I\u2019ve read the bill. Well, I have read the bill. I sat in select committee and I can tell you, mark my words, the lights are going to go off as a result of the decisions that this Government is making. Last time they went off it was a communication outage. Next time it goes off it\u2019ll actually be a power off. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022398e2522730e478bb70f0cd7cf909728\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: The lights are already off in Labour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220aa9b486a9984f3483bd203b6d0a1c50\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, lights are off for Labour. And there will be consequences of this bill, and it\u2019ll mean that that Government won\u2019t be in Government next time, so that\u2019ll be fantastic\u2014the country will get a huge advantage out of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ESo when we look at the stakeholder commentary\u2014none of which has been taken on board, none of which has been listened to\u2014Business New Zealand said a balanced approach to decommissioning was needed. Both Business New Zealand and the BusinessNZ Energy Council have registered their opposition to proposed rules for decommissioning oil and gas infrastructure. So who are the people that really understand how this works? Not the Government. The Government doesn\u2019t understand how this works. The industry understands how this works; they\u2019re right behind decommissioning, and they know that this is actually an unworkable solution for our industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EEnergy Resources Aotearoa said the decommissioning overkill needs a rethink, but if you\u2019re not interested in listening to the industry then law professor Philip Joseph \u201Cfinds the bill to be retrospective and \u2018constitutionally objectionable\u2019 and \u2018raises a fundamental rule of law concern\u2019, which would be damaging to business confidence.\u201D But, of course, this Government\u2019s already damaged business confidence, so it\u2019s not something that terribly worries them on the other side of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EJustin Smith QC \u201Cexpresses serious concerns about \u2018trailing liability\u2019, which means former permit holders can be liable for fields they have transferred and no longer control. He says it is \u2018a truly novel and draconian provision in New Zealand\u2019 \u201D\u2014Draconian. We\u2019ve heard before that this Government\u2019s taking us back to the 1970s; I think they\u2019re taking us back to the Dark Ages and the coal age. Consultants Wood Mackenzie \u201Cfind the New Zealand proposals are far stricter than comparable jurisdictions and unnecessarily duplicative. They find that \u2018such a strict regulatory system is not necessary to obtain \u2026 level of taxpayers\u2019 protection.\u2019 \u201D And economic consultants Castalia \u201Cfinds the proposal\u2019s costs to greatly outweigh the benefits with net cost to New Zealand of almost $1 billion, generating only 11 cents of economic benefit for every dollar of cost.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ESo perhaps, Mr Duncan Webb, you could read the bill. Asking me if I\u2019ve read the bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f0efbfff4bf47b5b0e28cbb5f1c4df2\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Order! The member won\u2019t bring the Speaker into the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca3ae32959f94115828096f252fc9c2a\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Duncan Webb might like to read the bill, rather than accusing people on this side of the House of not reading the bill, because, actually, this bill is going to take us back into the coal age, and we actually will oppose the bill on this side of the House with great gusto. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022 data-id=\u002242d3c781080745718d9c67afaf42b745\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242d3c781080745718d9c67afaf42b745\u0022\u003ENAISI CHEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I find it really interesting how the other side\u2014or the Opposition\u2014has forgotten the cost of decommissioning the Tui oilfield. Let me reiterate to this House and remind the House and everyone listening that the Tui oilfield costed taxpayers $155 million. That is $155 million that we will never get back. That is hard-earned taxes of New Zealanders that we have to put into decommissioning the oilfield, and there are plenty of other oilfields in this country that we need to look into decommissioning if it wasn\u2019t for this bill being passed. One hundred and fifty-five million dollars\u2014how many more $155 million do we need to spend decommissioning all of the gas- and oilfields in this country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EEnough is enough, and that\u2019s why we need to legislate this bill. I absolutely do not accept that the select committee process was by no means a collaborative, or one that we went into with open mind. In fact, the Minister, in her speech, had touched on all of the different terms in the bill that we have now actually adjusted because of the select committee process. I want to thank all of the submitters who came into our select committee, those who are experts in the field. Look, I really have to say that you guys are all great advocates for your industry, but, unfortunately, we do have to have a balance of approach to this. We need to make sure that we are good keepers of the taxpayers\u2019 money at the same time while regulating industry. And so all of the little changes that we\u2019ve made, for instance directors who, if you\u2019re no longer serving on that board you are no longer criminally liable\u2014all of these little changes, including to the Minister\u2019s discretionary powers, have given more clarity because of the Regulations Review Committee. All of these changes were because the select committee process had worked. So I thank all the submitters. I thank all of our advisors. This is a great bill that is saving taxpayers\u2019 money. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff6fc413cf114621aa568607749fdd0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff6fc413cf114621aa568607749fdd0d\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s deeply ironic and a bit rich, frankly, to hear from one-term Labour Party backbench MPs about the benefits of not wasting taxpayers\u2019 money. Here is a Government that has borrowed, printed, spent profligately more taxpayer money in the last four years than any Government in the history of our nation\u2014most of it poorly spent. Most of it very poorly directed, poorly spent. So to have a one-term backbench Labour MP come to this House and cry crocodile tears about taxpayer money just doesn\u2019t ring true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EWe have a Government that is significantly out of tune with the New Zealand public, significantly out of tune with commerce, with industry, with the productive sector in New Zealand, and nothing actually reflects that more so than this bill. Members on this side have supported the bill at first reading. We thought that the Government might want to actually listen to the sector, listen to submissions from people who understood the sector, who operated in the sector, who had long-term interests in the sector, but, sadly, no\u2014there was no attempt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI listened carefully to my colleague Barbara Kuriger, who sat on the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee. I didn\u2019t sit on the select committee, but I have read some of the submissions. Barbara Kuriger rightly indicates that often a Minister that is open to ideas, suggestions, and improvement will take into account submissions that are made from industry and sector groups that do know what they\u2019re talking about. This has not been one of those cases, and this bill is the poorer for it, because it is an overreach. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EIt is a bill that goes several steps beyond what is necessary, and with all the potential for unintended consequences that come with a Government that doesn\u2019t understand commerce, business, or, actually, the extractive mineral sector. They have a fundamental ideological opposition to the extractive sector; they just don\u2019t like it. But they do like everything that comes from and with the extractive sector. They like to be able to use their cellphones, drive their cars, they like to be able to turn the lights on, they like to be able to heat and warm their homes, and they like all the benefits that come from an extractive sector, but they like none of the downsides that involve actually getting minerals and resources out of the earth, processing them, and then turning them into the beneficial aspects of our day-to-day life that we all like. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThis is a Government that is sort of like that old analogy of, you know, wanting to go to heaven but not wanting to die. They\u2019re full of grand gestures, virtue signalling on a grand scale but, actually, when the nitty-gritty comes down to it, it\u2019s just a fundamental philosophical objection to the extractive sector, but also a fundamental philosophical objection to business and to commerce and to enterprise and to productivity. They don\u2019t like profit, either.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ELook, nobody in this Chamber would argue that the sector doesn\u2019t have obligations to decommission; that\u2019s a given. That\u2019s understood, and completely proper and right. But from time to time, things don\u2019t happen quite as they should, and this bill, which is an overreach, is a response to one situation of that sort. And yes, sadly, the taxpayer, the long-suffering taxpayer, has had to underwrite the decommissioning in this situation. But had this Government gone about putting in place a more practical, a more pragmatic, and a more sensible solution, then we would be able to support this legislation on this side of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EBut we can\u2019t, because they\u2019ve introduced into this legislation a new, fascinating, and quite scary concept of perpetual liability. For anyone that has been in business or ever done a commercial transaction or been a director or a shareholder of a company, the concept of perpetual liability is an unknown one, but also kind of scary. It will have a chilling effect on the commercial sector, without any doubt, because what perpetual liability essentially means is that if a business sells their interests in an enterprise to another business, and then that business in turn sells it to another business and then so on, and the chain of sale and purchase continues through multiple owners of a business over many years, and decades, indeed, the original owners of that business, even though they may not have had a financial interest or a day-to-day management interest in the business for decades, will remain liable\u2014not just civilly liable but also criminally liable for the misdeeds and the failures of the company or entity that is the one that drops the parcel, so to speak.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ENow, that is a fundamental change to commercial law in New Zealand, and it has, I think, the potential for great disquiet amongst those who seek to engage in commercial activity in New Zealand, whether it\u2019s in the extractive mineral sector or not. The concept that this Government wants to put this in place sends a chill up the spines of, I think, directors and shareholders and business people all around the countryside.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EChapman Tripp are a well-regarded law firm, and their corporate and commercial partners put out a paper about this bill, and they made some quite poignant, I think, comments about the failures of this bill. In their paper on this bill, they said, \u201CWe expect these provisions will cause significant anxiety in boardrooms.\u201D They said the changes expose \u201Csellers to a potential cost double whammy \u2013 first in the form of a lower purchase price to reflect the cost exposure created by the Bill, and later if the purchaser fails to carry out and fund the decommissioning activities.\u201D They go on to say that \u201CAt the very least, this will make transferring permits or licences more intensive and cumbersome \u2013 particularly for the seller who will have to undertake substantial financial due diligence in relation to a purchaser\u2019s ability to meet [future] decommissioning costs [into an unknown] future.\u201D They go on\u2014and this is the last quote from this piece\u2014\u201CWe expect sale and purchase agreements going forward will include indemnities from the purchaser, indemnifying the seller for any liability under the Bill. However, those indemnities cannot extend to directors of the seller \u2013 a point which is explicit in the Bill.\u201D Dr Duncan Webb comes to this Parliament with a reputation for being an academic lawyer\u2014a lecturer, no less. He should understand the implications of this piece of legislation, and he should realise that this is a step too far.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThere were a number of other submissions made. In fact, I think that there were 11 that were actually heard from of the 23, but one organisation that did not have an opportunity to submit has, as recently as a week or so ago, on 11 November, written to the Minister in charge of this bill, raising their concerns, and that is the Institute of Directors in New Zealand. Their chief executive, Kirsten Patterson, wrote to Dr Megan Woods in these terms about this legislation, and she says, \u201CWe support the intent of the bill, but we\u2019re concerned about director liability and potentially unintended consequences, such as deterring capable, experienced directors from serving.\u201D Now, that\u2019s a real warning to this Government, who probably doesn\u2019t understand the concept of what directors do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EShe goes on to say the proposed director liability regime is overly onerous, and then says that \u201CWhen designing a regulatory regime, it\u2019s important that the director liability settings are proportionate and reasonable to the issues the regime is designed to address. This regime includes wide threshold for criminal liability that holds directors accountable for actions that are potentially totally beyond their control.\u201D\u2014potentially totally beyond their control. Now, that\u2019s not how our commercial law should be based, and we think that that is wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo if the Institute of Directors in New Zealand thinks there are issues, if prominent lawyers from big professional firms such as Chapman Tripp think that there are issues, and if there are submissions from industry and sector groups that say there are issues, then we\u2019ve got a problem when the Minister won\u2019t listen. That means that this will end up being poor legislation passed by a Government with an absolute majority that doesn\u2019t listen and doesn\u2019t care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u002218cf9d6b0f31491b89f779f135ae0347\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218cf9d6b0f31491b89f779f135ae0347\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Speaker. Thank you for allowing me to take a call on the Crown Minerals (Decommissioning and Other Matters) Amendment Bill, which is amending the Crown Minerals Act of 1991.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ENow, 1991 was quite a different time to 2021, where we\u2019re at now. For me, being in Taranaki where many\u2014in fact, most\u2014of the impacts of this bill are, a lot has changed in that time. For many of the businesses who have made their money in petroleum, who have made their money through exploration and discovery, and, of course, then onselling it\u2014for a lot of our petroleum wells, they are beginning to come to the end of their lives, and what that means is that for many of our big companies, they\u2019re very much around discovery, they\u2019re very much around, then, extraction, but they\u2019re not often around end-of-life stuff. So the issue we have with Tamarind\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022966ee6f6cb1c4544a4af09ab65d6be5c\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: What a load of rubbish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3874362458d4cf0b658787b5623ff2c\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s completely true. So with Tamarind, they came in, because that\u2019s how it works, to squeeze the last little bit out, and unfortunately, tragically, not $155 million the Government\u2019s shelling out; it\u2019s more like $394 million\u2014I think it was around $195 million was added to the Budget this year because it is so extreme and it\u2019s such a concern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m here this afternoon to support this piece of legislation ensuring that those who undertook to profit from petroleum, that they will be doing the right thing, that they\u2019ll be very cautious when they onsell, they\u2019ll be very cautious in those spaces, because obviously they don\u2019t want to have legal action against them. They want to do the right thing, as I know they always do, because they want to care for the spaces that they onsell.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ESo we want to make sure that we get legislation right. I look at the United Kingdom, Australia. The United Kingdom has most of these things in place already. Australia is proposing to bring many of these measures in place. For that reason, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u0022abaa8c86ad284db884b17ca310ac4cab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022abaa8c86ad284db884b17ca310ac4cab\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai o te Whare, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. I\u2019m pleased to take a call on the Crown Minerals (Decommissioning and Other Matters) Amendment Bill and I\u2019m speaking because Julie Anne Genter, our energy spokesperson, is on leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe Green Party is pleased to support this bill. It highlights, I think, the extent to which Aotearoa has been naive, and the public sector and regulators have been dominated by the protests of the oil and gas industry, that there are currently no explicit provisions in the Crown Minerals Act which set out the responsibilities of petroleum permit and licence holders for decommissioning wells and operations into the future. It doesn\u2019t set out at the moment the length of time that they\u2019re responsible for that, and it doesn\u2019t set out the consequences of not doing that decommissioning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EDecommissioning, for anyone watching at home, occurs when it\u2019s no longer profitable for a company to continue to extract oil and gas\u2014the whole process of decommissioning commences. It\u2019s the process of taking the infrastructure and the wells out of service, plugging the well so it doesn\u2019t release hydrocarbons, remediating the site, removing production facilities and any equipment. But at the moment, the way the law is drafted means that permit and licence holders are only responsible for decommissioning for the issues that arise during the life of the permit and within six months of the resource ceasing to be active; not after that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re supposed to have a regulatory regime in Aotearoa New Zealand which is based on \u201Cpolluter pays\u201D, where those who benefit the most from environmentally harmful activities bear the costs of any associated remediation and clean-up activities. Petroleum permit and licence holders are supposed to plug abandoned wells and they\u2019re supposed to decommission the infrastructure, but that hasn\u2019t happened. And as other members in this House have noted, that imposes significant liabilities on the Crown if it doesn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWhat happens if things aren\u2019t properly decommissioned? There are huge environmental impacts. You can get the contamination of groundwater because the fluids from the well leak into groundwater, contaminate aquifers and, potentially, our drinking water. If hydrocarbons build up under pressure, they can potentially blow out. If the wells and the infrastructure are offshore, then those may come loose from the seabed. And of course, if you haven\u2019t got a properly decommissioned well, if there\u2019s something like an earthquake that can also cause problems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EAs the regulatory impact statement notes, there are currently 27 active petroleum mining permits and licences in Aotearoa; five of those are offshore, 22 of them are onshore. Some of them are large, like the M\u0101ui field, and some of them are much smaller. These are ageing and, as others have noted, when these wells age there is an increased risk of problems occurring, leaks occurring.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment recommended way back in 2014, when she looked at the whole regulation of the oil and gas industry, that there be changes to ensure that the industry bore the cost of both ongoing monitoring of abandoned oil and gas wells, the remediation of future leaks by, for example, the imposition of an annual levy. But the former Government didn\u2019t act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re getting action now because of what happened with Tamarind. That was a private equity company which bought those permits to operate the offshore Tui field. It claimed that it specialised in taking end-of-life fields and extracting the maximum oil and gas. It claimed that it would bear the risks of doing that. But it went into liquidation in December 2019, and, as the Minister noted, at an estimated initial cost of $155 million. So when the National Party talks about overly onerous responsibilities, they don\u2019t seem to be recognising the opportunity cost of that initial $155 million, which has blown out to $394 million of cost to the Crown, to the public. What is the opportunity cost of that? How many thousands of hip replacements could have been funded from that? A new Whang\u0101rei Hospital, predator control over all of the conservation estate, but $394 million because Tamarind as a shelf company was able to get out of its responsibilities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo this bill fixes big gaps in the Crown Minerals Act. It ensures that with this concept of perpetual liability, there is responsibility into the future. It\u2019s creating a clear obligation to decommission, much greater monitoring powers, and a requirement to obtain and maintain a financial security to carry out decommissioning work and potentially have that paid through the future. So there\u2019s an explicit legal obligation that the bill is creating.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EI really acknowledge the work of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee, because it did very detailed scrutiny of the bill and made a number of changes which\u2014the National Party is seeking greater flexibility for the industry. There were some quite significant changes that the committee made so that it did, for example, amend the provisions that would enable a company to apply to the Minister to seek an exemption for a permit holder if they wanted to leave the infrastructure in place, for example. There are regulations, I think, that are out for public consultation at the moment on how this would all work. And it did do things like amend the definition of \u201Cpetroleum infrastructure\u201D to be less broad. So there are a number of quite specific changes that the select committee made in response to submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EBut the concerns around perpetual liability\u2014my understanding from reading the report and some of the submissions was that there were also changes there so that they would set out the priority in which the Crown would enforce liability. It would go to the current permit holder first and then whoever owned it before them. So there were changes made in response to submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EBut this bill has a big gap. It doesn\u2019t apply to mining operations. In the hills behind Reefton, OceanaGold has created an enormous tailings reservoir. Yes, it has a big impoundment, but in an earthquake, in heavy rain events, there is a risk in future that there may be cracks in that impoundment. The whole responsibility for the maintenance of that impoundment should be on the company in perpetuity. It shouldn\u2019t risk falling to the Crown. So this bill is a great step forward in dealing with the petroleum industry, but it should apply to all mining operations, particularly those that create big reservoirs and impoundments as OceanaGold has done at Reefton. We commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00225508176cfa074afbb2f63467d15f7c8d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225508176cfa074afbb2f63467d15f7c8d\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. The ACT Party supported this legislation to go to select committee where it could be properly evaluated. It turns out that despite the objective being laudable, to improve the regulation of the decommissioning of petroleum structures and installations, it turns out that the Government has oversold the benefits and wasn\u2019t clear and honest about all the risks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, ACT supports the concept of \u201Cpolluter pays\u201D and that operators should take responsibility for decommissioning their oil and gas assets at the end of their life. We support making it a statutory obligation where previously there was no obligation. We can also support the ability of the Crown to assess the financial capability of petroleum permit holders to undertake their obligations. But what the ACT Party can never support is a trailing or perpetual liability on directors of companies who have undertaken and fulfilled their duties according to the law, to environmental best practice, who have met their social and economic obligations to communities and shareholders alike but would find that in years following their association with a business that may have been successful, they are held criminally liable for decisions taken by officers of the business in operational roles quite remote from the governance role that they held as directors. ACT cannot support that. It is chilling, destructive, and will have a very negative impact on any business intention to invest in New Zealand. It will result in the hollowing out of investment in quality businesses and a reduction in the quality of people who are prepared to stand up and become directors of companies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWe also do not support the creation of a post-decommissioning fund. Now, as a civil and environmental engineer, I\u2019ve been involved in decommissioning extremely hazardous facilities like timber treatment operations and closed landfills, for example. But at the end of the process, an engineer, a scientist, a planner have to get together and propose to regional councils or to the regulator that they have cleaned up and decommissioned that facility as best as possible to manage the foreseeable risks. At that point, if you have a resource consent for an operation or a facility, the regulator will sign it off and say, \u201CHere\u2019s your bond back. We recognise that you have fulfilled your obligations as far as reasonably practicable at this point in time\u201D\u2014notwithstanding any other acts of God that might happen in years or decades to come, for which no director, no company should be held liable or could possibly plan for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s why, if we\u2019re talking about liability, engineers design buildings to withstand a certain earthquake load, not the unimaginable earthquake that might occur sometime in the future. They have to pick an actual earthquake level that they design for. There\u2019s no point in designing for an earthquake that\u2019s so enormous that might have happened once or might possibly happen in the future. You have to design for the risk that you can reasonably foresee. And so once a decommissioning activity is complete, then at that point the directors in the company should be released from any future obligations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, we also oppose a mandatory financial security. If a business can demonstrate that they have the financial capability and the expertise to fulfil their obligations, then that should be sufficient. If, however, they choose to enter into an arrangement with a regulator where they would prefer to put up a bond or put up a security voluntarily rather than manage that themselves with their own bondholder, then that\u2019s entirely up to them. But it should not be mandatory. We also find that the concept of a default to total removal of all structures\u2014we\u2019re talking about the bases, the feet, of very large oil rigs or other installations made out of steel which might sit on the seafloor. They\u2019re covered in barnacles. They\u2019re home to octopus. They are a treasure trove of biodiversity where they stand, in the natural environment. Yet this regulation, and the Minister who\u2019s left the House because there\u2019s obviously not enough, there\u2019s\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267ef6562f25e460098aa2ec1b6fbb032\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: You can\u2019t say that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce41184cc4454f6cb99a5ed3aa58cded\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Clearly the information that\u2019s been presented is too hot. But default total removal means that, actually, businesses involved in petroleum exploration, field development will have to remove things that could reasonably be left in place based on the opinion of an environmental scientist or a marine biologist or an ecologist who might say, \u201CLook, look at the flora and fauna growing on the legs of this wonderful old structure. It\u2019s like a shipwreck on the seafloor. There\u2019s no reason why it should have to be removed as long as it\u2019s made safe, as long as it meets the threshold of a low risk.\u201D So the ACT Party opposes the default to total removal of all structures. It\u2019s nonsensical. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, when we think about what decommissioning is, it must address the reasonable risks, and that is all. The reasonable risks include\u2014look, what\u2019s the balance in terms of health and safety versus environmental performance if you have to send divers down to remove things that were never intended to be deconstructed or removed. It\u2019s only more recently that we\u2019ve actually designed structures and buildings, for example, with the idea that they will in fact one day be deconstructed. Many things built in the past were not designed in that way, and it\u2019s very dangerous to try to remove them, particularly if you\u2019re talking about places where there are significant currents and movements on the seafloor. So decommissioning should be limited to what is required to meet environmental objectives while taking care of the health and safety of the workers involved, and make sure that what\u2019s left behind is recorded so that we know what\u2019s left behind. But that should be the limit of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EAs I\u2019ve pointed out, when comparing this regime to a resource consenting or a building consenting regime, it\u2019s important to note that this proposed legislation goes far beyond what is required in order to make sure that businesses fulfil their obligations to leave the environment behind in a suitable state and manage all the risks before they go to a low level of risk. Not zero risk, not no risk ever, for ever in perpetuity, but to an acceptable level of risk that is a low risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, this flawed piece of legislation has also threatened to drag in mining and quarrying. We have submissions from mining and quarrying organisations who have said, \u201CLook, this bill is not clear enough. It\u2019s supposed to address the risk of petroleum installations, but it also drags us in.\u201D The mining and quarrying activities already have resource consents. They already have bonds in place. They already have consent conditions that they have to meet around making safe their sites when they leave, deconstructing any structures, replanting, and leaving the environment\u2014in many cases\u2014a much better place than they found it. Just like the OceanaGold Reefton Globe Progress Mine rehabilitation, which is an example of one of the best mine rehabilitations ever carried out anywhere in the world. New Zealand can be proud that businesses operating here are operating to a very high standard of environmental performance, and that must be taken into account. New Zealand businesses are good at this stuff. Engineers and scientists based here are good at this stuff, and they should be trusted, not punished, not having their directors penalised\u2014in fact, discouraged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWhat this bill represents is actually an attack on business. It\u2019s an attack on business confidence. We\u2019ve seen for the first time since the global financial crisis (GFC) that New Zealanders have less confidence in Government now than at any other time since the GFC. And legislation like this only contributes to and compounds the sense that the Government running this country doesn\u2019t understand how business operates, what communities need to be successful. They are not listening. They have demonstrated time and again that despite the best evidence from businesses who say, \u201CWe want a better environment.\u201D, that\u2019s not enough. They won\u2019t listen to them. For that reason, ACT opposes this bill. We do not believe that the Crown Minerals (Decommissioning and Other Matters) Amendment Bill should proceed beyond this point. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022 data-id=\u002213c9e26c915a45949afbfa78118912ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213c9e26c915a45949afbfa78118912ca\u0022\u003ETERISA NGOBI (Labour\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E Fa\u2018afetai tele, Madam Speaker, and as always, it\u2019s a privilege and an honour to take a call in the House as the member of Parliament for the \u014Ctaki electorate. While I didn\u2019t sit on the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee, I want to thank those who did, and who did the mahi\u2014or the work\u2014on this, the Crown Minerals (Decommissioning and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. The committee, I note, made some changes after hearing from submitters, I\u2019m sure, to make this bill the best it can be. Thank you, again, to those committee members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003EThis bill ensures that the oil and gas operators meet the cost of decommissioning their wells, and that then, in turn, mitigates the risk to Crown, or, essentially, to the taxpayers and other third parties from these costs being passed on. We also know that this bill prevents the Crown from having to pay for decommissioning of petroleum fields if an operator can no longer afford to pay for that or is no longer operating on that site. So, further, in April 2020, as the member Naisi Chen mentioned, the Crown had to take on the decommissioning of the Tui field after their operator went into liquidation\u2014again, costing the taxpayer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003EThis bill will also allow for more effective monitoring of the permit holder\u2019s financial ability to decommission their petroleum field, and it would also ensure that the operators are able to pay for the clean-up costs by requiring them to make sure they set aside decommissioning funds for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003EUltimately, this bill is yet another example of this Labour Government doing what it said it would: delivering not only for our planet, for Papat\u016B\u0101nuku, for te ao, but for our people and our future. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd125bf91b044ebbb07e63bc9197e440\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd125bf91b044ebbb07e63bc9197e440\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, thank you so much. It is the first time in, I think, 91 days that I\u2019m standing in this House to speak, so I\u2019d like to acknowledge my colleagues. I have missed you. I would also like to say to my select committee members from across the House that it\u2019s lovely to actually see you in person, even though it\u2019s across the room, because in select committee for the last three months, we\u2019ve just been doing it via Zoom. So it\u2019s nice to actually see you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EIt is a pleasure to rise, together with my colleagues on this side of the House, to oppose this bill. I\u2019d just like to say that my colleague Barbara Kuriger has actually done all the heavy lifting on this particular bill, and we on this side of the House oppose the Crown Minerals (Decommissioning and Other Matters) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EWe actually supported the intent of this bill at first reading so that we could go to select committee and hear the submissions, and I was in my office listening to the Minister when she talked about the 23 oral submissions. She said, you know, \u201CThis bill is this, and this is the reason.\u201D, but what I took out of the speech that the Minister made was that it is incredible how this Government made a decision to stop oil and gas exploration and kill thousands of jobs in Taranaki, and this also means that it\u2019s an overreaction to one incident that happened. This bill applies retrospectively and will impact on existing permits and licence holders, altering the rights and duties, and that is a huge impact on business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EIf I could quote the chairperson of Energy Resources Aotearoa, Chief Executive John Carnegie, he said that this bill is \u201Cregulatory overkill\u201D\u2014and I\u2019m quoting\u2014\u201Cwith different requirements piling on costs, far more than needed to protect taxpayers.\u201D He also went on to say, \u201CMuch of the Bill is retrospective, which is like moving [a goalpost] after the ball has been kicked.\u201D Who does that? You don\u2019t do that in rugby. You certainly should not be doing that in business, either. When you make a commitment, you expect people to live up to their responsibilities, and when people are given licences, they should be doing what they are supposed to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003ESometimes some businesses fail. They go bankrupt and you have to deal with those circumstances individually, not make rules that go right across industry and other industries and that could actually impact on them, and that actually means that consumers, potentially, will be paying higher prices for our energy. But do they actually care? This Government apparently cares a lot, and yet I don\u2019t think they actually do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EWhen you actually look at the responsibility of the Government, you would think that they should care about what happens in the industry. I think, when I was listening to a speaker earlier\u2014you know, nobody actually wants to increase carbon emissions in our country. We all want to do our fair share to reduce our emissions to make sure that we progress on to a time and place where New Zealand is responsible and will be carbon-neutral. I think that\u2019s the goal. We actually want to get there, but the problem is that when Governments make regulations and pass legislation when we\u2019re not ready to do so, what happens is that we have situations like under this Government. Instead of actually using less coal for energy, we\u2019re using more coal for energy, and not only are we using New Zealand coal; we\u2019re actually importing from overseas to use the coal to power up our energy industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EI think this is where we show the Government to be not as responsible as they claim to be, but irresponsible in their application and delivery of our legislation and our regulations. I think this is one area where natural gas is used by 270,000 residential users, 11,000 commercial users, 5,000 large commercial users\u2014including our hospitals\u2014and 300 large industries. They don\u2019t need it to be retrospective. They don\u2019t need this bill, and I certainly do not support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u0022363cfb0298fb45e1a9242804f82efd55\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022363cfb0298fb45e1a9242804f82efd55\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise with absolute pride in this bill and the actual difference it shows between the two sides of this House, because this bill is actually just common sense. It isn\u2019t something to worry too much about when what a Government is doing is taking mischief that it\u2019s seeing, and that we can see through what was the Tui fields disaster, and making sure that taxpayers don\u2019t end up paying for that\u2014in fact, sheeting that cost back to who it belongs to: those who have made the profits. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo this is a situation where Tamarind, a company that came in and bought the Tui oilfields, said it would do a job, didn\u2019t do a job, collapsed, and do you know how much the New Zealand taxpayers are paying for that: $394 million. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EMy colleagues have talked about some of the things that that could pay for, but I\u2019d also like the New Zealand public to think about what it could have paid for in business. Is it actually an appropriate support of business to spend all that money cleaning up and shoring up and making safe something for companies that have made huge profits, when in fact that money could be used for wage subsidies, it could be used for our small businesses? That would be a good use of the money. It could nurture new things like new forms of fuel. It doesn\u2019t have to go to big multinationals. Only bunnies do that. That is a naive thing to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, we have heard people in this Opposition have seen this as a block, but I say this is not a block. This is a support of businesses in New Zealand, and I\u2019m proud to support and commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u0022111930ee9e3e4ee3b91c614736993885\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022111930ee9e3e4ee3b91c614736993885\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I just want to rise in response to that last speech and talk about the Crown Minerals (Decommissioning and Other Matters) Amendment Bill; it\u2019s a Government bill in the name of Dr Megan Woods. The difficulty New Zealand faces at the moment is the large degree to which this Government has transferred away from renewable energy into use of a carbon-based energy source through using coal as its mechanism to deliver heating to New Zealand and to keep the lights on, even if they did go off at a certain stage. The approach that the Government has taken from day one has been a very strict approach around energy. They\u2019ve taken the approach that there will be no oil and gas exploration, that the country will deliver its energy needs without those key sources of energy, which actually are part of the transfer to renewable energy. Gas, for example, is widely used around the world and seen as a more renewable form of energy than, for example, coal would be\u2014or a more environmentally friendly form of energy. So the ideology, and the blind ideology, of this Government has led to a position where New Zealand has an energy system that is now compromised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EWhen we come to this bill here today, this is a bill that has been in response to the Tui oilfield decommissioning, where taxpayers had to fund $350 million in the clean-up. The bill amends the Crown Minerals Act, and it does a number of things in that, and one of them is to require permit holders to submit plans, it allows the Minister to create regulations, and requires the permit holders to submit notices in certain cases. Now, all those factors, you may think, are fine and that is OK, but it flows from an approach that this Government has taken to energy that simply has not worked. And what we have seen is that the knee-jerk reactions of this Government around energy have compromised the ability of New Zealand to have the strong infrastructure that we actually would want as a renewable country going forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EWe just have to look at another bill that\u2019s going through this House at the moment, the Land Transport (Clean Vehicles) Amendment Bill, which is similarly an approach by this Government around fuel. It\u2019s more commonly known as the \u201CUte Tax Bill\u201D, but it is a bill which this Government uses and says, \u201CWell, this is an example where we can dictate energy policy.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e5619c460014240b966ecf705ed7234\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Come back to this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022799218dd9ba84a1cb4ae3638d9777a5f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, Madam Speaker. So, in the way that they dictate energy policy there, we also see it here today as well. This is another aspect of retrospective legislation that we see from a Government that, when we were in Government, would always stand up and say we can\u2019t have retrospective legislation, and yet they are doing it time and time again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EIt also has the unusual effect of making the former owner liable for meeting the costs of decommissioning energy infrastructure if the new owner fails to do so, so it doesn\u2019t follow general commercial practice in that regard. And as Business New Zealand has said, that could create a perpetual liability on energy businesses that strongly should be opposed. Like other legislation we\u2019ve seen from this Government, they don\u2019t have a commercial reality of what that actually would mean. They actually think that it\u2019s fine to be able to put such restrictions on business, that it\u2019s fine for this Parliament to legislate that somebody is liable. They don\u2019t actually understand what it actually means to the consumer, because that liability has to be transferred to the consumer in some form as they have to meet the costs so that that company can actually be able to progress and survive, knowing that it has that liability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ESo we see these downstream effects from the energy policies of this Government which doesn\u2019t understand the practical realities of what they do, just like they banned oil and gas exploration, just like they put taxes on utes, just like they are here putting a liability on other energy providers. And it is all for a grand plan that just won\u2019t work, because they haven\u2019t invested in the things that we actually need like renewable energy. Where\u2019s the grand plan of building the renewable energy that we need? Where\u2019s the grand plan so that we can have those electric vehicles and we can actually charge them from renewable electricity? Are we going to be moving to a new fleet that\u2019s going to be charged with coal-powered energy? That\u2019s what\u2019s happening in this country. It\u2019s the case that we just don\u2019t understand where we actually need to go. We\u2019ve been blessed as a country to have a huge renewable base, and they\u2019ve lost that. They are now making it even harder for future Governments to get that renewable target achieved. It\u2019s going to be even more difficult when you place on top of that a lot of requirements about using electricity instead of other types of energy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ESo what we have here is a very short-term Government when it comes to energy. They only look at their goals at the moment and progressing some grand ideals that they can promote on an election pamphlet. They don\u2019t actually look at the reality of what energy requirements are for this country, what the needs are for our electricity supply, and how we could actually meet those in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ESo when we see bills like this that are around energy, and specifically in regard to the petroleum sector and gas, that has had a vicious attack on them from this Government over the period of time that they\u2019ve been in Parliament and has really compromised our ability to be self-sufficient in energy, this legislation just adds to that list a tax on our energy sector, which has been misaligned with our actual energy needs going forward. So that is what New Zealanders need to be aware of, that by taking the approach that this Government has done, we all suffer in the end in not being able to meet our renewable energy targets. As a country, that is not good for us when we sell ourselves on the world market as a clean, green country. But it actually means our consumers will have to pay more, because, in the end, we\u2019re going to be paying\u2014either through climate change, we\u2019re going to be either paying through some form of cost on consumers, and the continual beating up of our energy sector that is a local energy sector, in favour of having imported energy, will be to the detriment of New Zealand consumers and the New Zealand brand over time, and the climate, essentially.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ENow, the last week or so we\u2019ve heard a lot of great talk coming out of Scotland around banning coal and those sorts of things, and yet, when we characterise the New Zealand environment, we see us using more coal. It just doesn\u2019t make sense that the Labour Party and the Green Party, effectively, as coalition partners, have banded together to actually create the opposite of where the world is wanting to go. At the same time this is a Labour Party that talks about climate change as the biggest thing of our generation, and yet they do the very opposite from what we see around the rest of the world. They\u2019re contrary in their policy to what is being approached in the rest of the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ESo when we come to energy and legislation, this legislation may not be as big as some of the other legislation they\u2019ve done in the energy field, but it all points back to their misunderstanding of economics, their misunderstanding of how business operates, and their desire to just beat up the energy sector, because they just think that they shouldn\u2019t be there doing it, and that they can hide behind a shipload of coal coming in every so often rather than actually dealing with the issues and actually having a forward-thinking approach that\u2019s really based on renewable energy that actually would deliver for New Zealand going forward. So it\u2019s very disappointing to see that from a Labour-Greens Government, but that\u2019s the reality of what we face at these times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002295f97d7443c0415e9d41bcda286e92bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002295f97d7443c0415e9d41bcda286e92bf\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te Mana Whakaw\u0101. Well, that was a speech that you\u2019d expect from a true National Party member: fundamentally conservative. \u201CDo nothing\u201D is essentially the approach of the National Party. Change nothing, leave the status quo. And do you know what? We saw that for a long time, and things got progressively worse. This bill says, \u201CNo, we\u2019re going to take a long-term approach.\u201D\u2014not an approach which satisfies the clamouring of industry today but one which will make any industry sustainable in the long term. That\u2019s our plan across all industry, and a fundamental principle of that plan is to say that people who use resources, who damage the environment, and who cause an impact will pay for it. And that\u2019s fair\u2014that is absolutely fair, and that is what this bill does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EYou know, I don\u2019t know how many people have ever drafted or litigated an energy contract in this House. We hear from the other side, many times, that we don\u2019t know what we\u2019re doing, we don\u2019t know what we\u2019re talking about, but you know what? I\u2019ve actually done a bit of work in this area, and the fact of the matter is\u2014[Multiple interjections] Yeah, I know, how about that! There they are over the other side of the House pretending they know all about business and none of them have even seen an energy contract. Well, bonds and indemnities\u2014we heard all this pooh-poohing about bonds and indemnities; they are fundamental to these arrangements. These arrangements last 20, 30, and 50 years sometimes, and the idea of a chain of liability\u2014because the main evil we\u2019re trying to attack here is the difficulty when people sell an asset to a less robust company, a company that doesn\u2019t have the financial strength of the original licence holder. And that can happen down a chain across the life of a mine or of a well\u2014it can happen many times: every five or 10 or 12 years. Now, what we don\u2019t want to see is the weakest party being held holding the baby, a well with huge decommissioning costs, when all of a sudden, as we saw in the Tamarind situation, they go broke and they run for cover and the taxpayer bears the burden, whereas there\u2019s people who have been extracting minerals for profit over a long period of time who get away with paying nothing. You know what? That\u2019s not fair. We won\u2019t have it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo the committee\u2019s done a really good job, and there\u2019s nothing wrong with strict liability, either. Any economist will actually tell you that saying you pay regardless of fault means that an operator will absolutely take the appropriate level of precautions. [Multiple interjections] Go and do your research. I thought you\u2019d like Richard Posner. He\u2019s one of the neoliberal philosophers that I thought you\u2019d be right into. Go and read what he says about strict liability. So go and do your research: strict liability is entirely appropriate, especially when you\u2019re doing something which is inherently risky. The mere fact of drilling for oil and gas\u2014it can be that no matter what precautions you take, devastation can happen. We can\u2019t have someone going and doing something which is inherently dangerous and then say, \u201COops, I did my best.\u201D That\u2019s not good enough. Reasonable precautions won\u2019t do it. The committee\u2019s done a great job tidying up some technical aspects of this bill. It\u2019s a great piece of work. I look forward to seeing it going through this House and becoming law to protect our environment and create truly sustainable industries in this area. Kia ora, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00228a88a4ce8b1740bbabe7c21a2a34ab9c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a88a4ce8b1740bbabe7c21a2a34ab9c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the amendments recommended by the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee by majority be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002215e5ad84c4574f20aa174f40324bdebe\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori\u00A02.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ce3e6cd8079e4f01a7fb3554336adc70\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Crown Minerals (Decommissioning and Other Matters) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori\u00A02.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000476\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00222cb0288db9944983a0884913505d8ab4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222cb0288db9944983a0884913505d8ab4\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The time has come for the dinner break. We will resume sitting at 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002237839862bdbd4088a084249ad4b2582a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237839862bdbd4088a084249ad4b2582a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Drug and Substance Checking Legislation Bill (No 2). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002293f3bcc407c344d39c48063794252f7b\u0022\u003EDrug and Substance Checking Legislation Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e4d4f848df93490285440cb2e14d43f2\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002220cd28591d8440d0bcda900865a528e3\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Misuse of Drugs Act 1975\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3cc1a7d94d3441996eef755103bb3b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3cc1a7d94d3441996eef755103bb3b3\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you very much. I don\u2019t want to take a long time on this. The Government has the numbers. They\u2019re going to pass this bill. National opposes it, and that sort of is that. We\u2019ve put out our reasons why that is the case. It is like so many bad laws that this Government passes. Kris Faafoi seems to be chief among Ministers at passing bad laws at the moment, but we\u2019ll get to three strikes, I hope, later today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EBut on this pill-testing one, my questions for the Minister really relate to this: I could be wrong, so I ask the Minister\u2014he can point out the error in what I\u2019m saying; I\u2019m all ears, but I feel like the Government went to the election with a ban on pill testing at music festivals, right? That\u2019s what they were going to do. That\u2019s how this started. That\u2019s the bill we got. But then what happened is: somewhere along the line, they just decided we\u2019d have pill testing everywhere, right? It is now, under this law that we\u2019re going through the committee of the whole House on, the case that pill testing can be done anywhere. I didn\u2019t see any official change come; it just came through the law, fundamentally\u2014although, once they\u2019d been elected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003ESo, given that, I want to understand the underlying rationale of that. Why have we gone from music festivals\u2014I don\u2019t like it, personally, I think it will encourage use. There\u2019s no safe use of the likes of MDMA, but, in any event, I do understand the rationale of it for music festivals\u2014the \u201CRhythms and Vines\u201D and so on that these guys on the other side are giving a lot of money to because they love a big music festival. We know that about Angie Warren-Clark, we\u2019ve discussed this in the House before. So why the change? When the change? I think, in all seriousness, I\u2019m probably being a bit flippant but I do think, actually, it\u2019s an important issue, the move from testing, simply, at music festival to, technically under this law, anywhere. What is going to go on here?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EI presume we\u2019re talking K Road, as it was called. Now it\u2019s Karangahape Road\u2014it was K Road when I was a kid, and we used to get our thrills driving up and down it to see the night life; as a 15-year-old, it was very exciting. I remember, actually, one time\u2014no we won\u2019t go there, actually, no we won\u2019t go there. Anyway, OK, K Road, outside the night clubs\u2014those clubs Shanan Halbert probably went to until the day he became a member of Parliament and he decided you shouldn\u2019t be out past midnight. Nothing good comes after midnight, Shanan Halbert, OK? So is it going to be outside those?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EBut, more than that, actually, is there going to be\u2014and I\u2019m not being facetious; I just want to understand\u2014rule-making, regulatory powers here? Will it be outside the local playground? There\u2019s no legal impediment to that that I can see in the bill. Will it be outside schools? Under the guise of public harm reduction education, we\u2019ll let the 15- and 16-year-olds know that they can test their pills here because that\u2019s cool and that\u2019s the way the Ministry of Health and those public health officials roll these days, right? It\u2019s all harm reduction, and we\u2019re cool with this outside of schools and outside of playgrounds. I just want to get a sense of the parameters and the legal restrictions. Will there be rule-making powers? I think there should be. I think that\u2019s really important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EAnd because I\u2019m not playing cat and mouse here and I don\u2019t want to take six calls and string this out and ask the Minister lots of other things, I also want to underline another thing that we never heard about in the election campaign\u2014I don\u2019t think we saw anything about it until the Minister\u2019s office stuck a press release out, and a friendly journalist at stuff.co.nz asked me for some comment on it\u2014and that is the fact that now not only have we gone from pill testing just at festivals being legalised, to everywhere but that taxpayers are going to pay for it. So my question, simply, again, on that is: when did they make that decision? Is it a new thing? Why have they decided that the taxpayer should pay for it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EI just say on that, on the \u201CWhy?\u201D, I\u2019m very curious about that. Call me old-fashioned. Call me a stick in the mud. I just work on this basis\u2014and I know they\u2019re a bunch of woke-sters now in ACT these days, so they don\u2019t go along with this; they\u2019ve given blatant disregard for taxpayers\u2019 money these days, and they\u2019re happy for taxpayers to pick up on this down-with-it, cool, hip thing called \u201Cpill testing\u201D everywhere. Why isn\u2019t it user\u2013pays? Why aren\u2019t users paying to test their own illicit, illegal drugs? Why do I have to pay? I don\u2019t want to pay for Kris Faafoi to get down with it at Rhythm and Vines. I just don\u2019t want to pay for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EThe final question, because I think I can do this in five minutes: will it stay at 850 grand\u2014I presume, per annum\u2014or am I right to say that, actually, every year this is going to go up as there\u2019s bracket creep, and we see millions spent on subsidising other people to have pills that are so-called safe, even though they\u2019re not? How much is this going to cost?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022780ee204b01d46ab9001d1df9f3a2b67\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022780ee204b01d46ab9001d1df9f3a2b67\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry; just with apologies before I take the member\u2014just to tell the committee that we are on Part 1. This is the debate on clauses 3 to 12A and Schedules 1 and 2. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b344141a882e416f9218508e6e57b26f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b344141a882e416f9218508e6e57b26f\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank the member Simon Bridges who\u2019s just resumed his seat. He started off by saying he\u2019s not here for a long time. I thought he was going to say he\u2019s here for a good time\u2014but he didn\u2019t even give us the benefit of that\u2014which is what some people say when they\u2019re going off to enjoy themselves on Karangahape Road and nightclubs and what have you. But anyway, let\u2019s see if I can answer his questions seriatim.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EHe started by asking why this wasn\u2019t promised in the election. Well, actually, it was. We said that we are committed to the continuation of the regime\u2014to have a regime that allows for drug-checking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe member asked why it has gone from music festivals to\u2014it took him a while to explain to me to where it\u2019s gone from musical festivals to\u2014anywhere. The point is that there are potentially dangerous substances, let\u2019s call them recreational substances, consumed in a whole bunch of different settings and environments; not just at music festivals. We, in last year\u2019s short-term legislation, stuck with music festivals because we knew there was an immediate need, and we could test out, if you like, setting up a regime that allowed us to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EBut the reality is there are people who are consuming substances the authenticity of which, the reality of which, they do not know. And they should have access to it as well, because in the end, this is about keeping people safe. It\u2019s about keeping people safe from illicit substances that can be traded without any verification about what it is, and what we saw from the exercise last summer at music festivals is that a lot of people\u2014young people, in that situation\u2014were kept safe as a result. There was a strong public benefit as a result. And just as those who go to music festivals and want to try out substances and really wanted to know what they are, so it is for people all year round in a variety of different settings\u2014people who live on the streets, people who might go a nightclub, people who are using substances that have the potential to cause harm, particularly if they are substances that the person doesn\u2019t know have been mixed in with what they think it is and could cause a lot of serious trouble.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo the idea is that this will allow a regime to be put in place that would deal with music festivals, orientation weeks, and what have you, but also those who are year-round consuming substances that come their way and they don\u2019t know the safety of it. I mean, it\u2019s not so long ago\u2014it\u2019s in living memory of that member and myself\u2014when we had the synthetic cannabis crisis because people were purchasing stuff and consuming stuff when they simply did not know what was in it. It was causing severe harm\u2014actually causing deaths. This is the thing, the mischief if you like, that we\u2019re trying to remedy. So it is intended to be broader than just music festivals and orientation weeks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe member asked whether this could mean people could set up outside local playgrounds and schools. No, because that\u2019s not where these transactions are taking place and it\u2019s not where people who are using substances from a questionable background need to have them tested. So that won\u2019t happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThen the member asked why the person who\u2019s getting the testing done does not pay for it. Because there is a public health benefit as a consequence. This is about keeping people safe. In the greater scheme of things, it\u2019s actually not an expensive safeguard to have for people who, at a time in life, might indulge in substances that would otherwise cause them harm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe member asked whether the costs will rise. We will make sure, as we do with health initiatives and public health initiatives in particular, that there is a regime in place that means that people can get access\u2014and it doesn\u2019t require them to be wealthy to do so\u2014to testing services so that they can keep safe. That\u2019s, again, what this is about. It won\u2019t be expensive because it\u2019s not expensive and we\u2019ll support those who meet the conditions to get a permit and get a permit to carry out the testing and support them to do that job, because that is what it takes to keep people safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u002252cdc77faa4347b79c8dca71f1a4ca53\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252cdc77faa4347b79c8dca71f1a4ca53\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I don\u2019t think that that answer was very convincing around the schools and playgrounds, because the Minister\u2019s explanation was it would be where drugs transactions take place, and I\u2019m reliably informed that outside schools is exactly where a number of drugs transactions take place. I don\u2019t see anything in the legislation that would prevent a mobile service pulling up outside a school and actually performing their service outside a school. So could he perhaps answer: what in the legislation is going to restrict that? Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u002206a005d77ae94b958471471dabe66e61\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206a005d77ae94b958471471dabe66e61\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m happy to respond to that question, and this comes up in debate sometimes, particularly on what members of the Opposition like to regard as moral issues. It\u2019s a thing that actually doesn\u2019t have to be legislated for; it\u2019s actually called real-world common sense. Real-world common sense tells you\u2014[Interruption]\u2014and I know members have big gasps of breath, sharp intakes of breath, because this is a foreign concept: the idea that, you know, people might actually behave in a way that is consistent with basics that are common sense. So the members of the Opposition who sat on the committee and, indeed, who sat through the second reading, don\u2019t appear to have proposed any other measures that are needed. It is not needed, because that is not the way the community who would benefit from this measure operates. So I give that assurance to the member. If she could stipulate some evidence of where this might be a concern, then she\u2019s free to relay herself that experience. But it is not needed, because that is not where the demand for this sort of service comes in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022d98b0f64a65b42a3bbf80c00b60989c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d98b0f64a65b42a3bbf80c00b60989c3\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, for the opportunity to take a call on this bill. I just want to reflect a little bit on what the Minister in the chair, the Hon Andrew Little, was just saying there. He said we want to ensure that we have these drug-checking services in the places where they purchase these substances. My colleague Penny Simmonds has mentioned the very real issue of drug dealers preying on our young people outside our high schools, and if the Minister in the chair was to go and talk to some high school principals and ask them about this issue, then he would get some real-world common sense from those principals. But I imagine he hasn\u2019t actually done that with this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe question here around this piece of legislation is whether this will protect people from illicit substances by testing those illicit substances. I\u2019d like to ask the Minister where in this piece of legislation will it protect the young people who go along to a drug-checking service with some MDMA and the drug-checking service says, \u201COh yes, you\u2019ve got MDMA and there\u2019s no adulterants in it, therefore it\u2019s all good. Go\u2014you know, have fun.\u201D, because the real issue, and the evidence is clear that the real killer from MDMA is MDMA, not some adulterants which have been mixed in and which may be found out through this process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe next question I\u2019d like to ask the Minister in the chair is around the issue of inadmissibility of the evidence in the drug-checking service. The question I\u2019ve got here is: for someone who deals drugs\u2014I\u2019m not talking about just a simple user; I\u2019m talking about someone who deals drugs\u2014and wants to take a couple of samples along to this drug-checking service, whether that be at a music festival, at K Road or at a university campus, or maybe outside a school, because that may be where the demand might lead these services and was to check their services, what is stopping that person from then using that information to say, \u201CYes, I\u2019ve tested these services.\u201D, and marketing those services to their sellers and then potentially demand a higher price for that substance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to ask the Minister why that evidence is inadmissible in the courts and what the purpose of removing that admissibility is. And does it cover not only people who are using substances but does that inadmissibility also extend to people who are supplying substances to others as well? I think the Minister in the chair may want to reflect on that, because there is a real issue here in New Zealand with illicit substances. It\u2019s not just the use but it\u2019s the supply and it\u2019s the peddling and it\u2019s the misery which gets caused by the people who peddle these substances to our young people and who cause enormous misery throughout society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019d like the Minister to spend some time reflecting on those questions and giving some clear answers which give confidence to New Zealanders that this is not going to provide an out of jail sort of way to get around it for drug dealers, but also to explicitly answer the question around whether this will provide any exclusionary zones around schools. Because I think parents up and down New Zealand will have very severe concerns about that part of this legislation if there were not exclusionary zones inputted into this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5daa1e65c6441c2b0d7cc1568f24e23\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5daa1e65c6441c2b0d7cc1568f24e23\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I think, to assist that member, first of all, this is a bill dealing with those who wish to consume substances and who wish to have the substances checked at the time they wish to consume them. I\u2019m not quite sure how much consumption of illicit substances happens at the school gate, but that might be a reflection of the member\u2019s own experiences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI\u2019m happy to further assist the member by reading the bill for him, because clearly he hasn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd983a925bd94159a22b780597719a92\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Go on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227af30680cda74fa5838a6dc9b2013ed7\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: I will, because he only needs to look at clause 10, which inserts new section 35DDF, to know that it is a requirement\u2014and the Health Committee put this in, actually\u2014for a drug-checking service to give harm reduction advice to a person whose substances they have just checked. So it\u2019s not enough just to kind of test it, say, \u201CThis is what it is.\u201D, and hand it back. They are required to give harm reduction advice, and the harm reduction advice has to be in a manner and a form and a language that is accessible to the person with whom they are dealing. So that is there\u2014that is all there. The member only had to look at the bill to know that that was the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIn terms of the member\u2019s concern that somehow a peddler of drugs will go and have some kind of a validation test that they can wield in their advertising, the advice that will be given to a person whose substances are tested is verbal advice; no more has to be given. So in the end, a person who has substances, whether they got it from a peddler or from a friend or picked it up or whatever, in the end, they are the ones who have the opportunity to get the assurance to know that what they are consuming is going to be safe. It does not allow a peddler to get a kind of a certificate of approval for the stuff that they are trying to sell.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002291231059f3ec43a793fb6b73110fb552\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291231059f3ec43a793fb6b73110fb552\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and thank you to the Minister for providing a bit of an overview in terms of this bill. I was actually a member of the select committee that went through this, and I do want to acknowledge the many parties that did provide a submission as part of that select committee process; in particular, St John Ambulance of which I am a volunteer member. I guess my experience related to this bill\u2014and I\u2019ve got a couple of questions for the Minister around in particular new section 35DDF, inserted by clause 10, which I\u2019ve just slightly touched on there around the provision of appropriate harm reduction advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe other aspect I\u2019m interested in is in new section 35DDI, which is the data provision or information and data that is provided to the Director-General of Health in regard to dangerous drugs. What I\u2019d like the Minister to provide a little bit of context around is in regard to those dangerous drugs. What are some examples, in terms of that, where he would foresee that information that would be provided through to the director-general\u2014and for what purpose would that information be used in order to, I guess, provide some public benefit? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn regard to the harm reduction elements, I\u2019m interested to get into the practicalities around how hard or how overt that advice is going to be, and particularly also the provision of advice to individuals or minors. So there I\u2019m referring to individuals that are under the age of 16 or potentially are when they\u2019re seeking the advice under the influence of alcohol, so their competency in order to be able to understand information, particularly advice, their ability to comprehend the implications of taking that drug or not, and the follow-through around that\u2014how that is assessed by the person providing that harm reduction advice. Because I think that is a pretty significant point in terms of whether the individual may or may not take the drug.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EMy experience having worked at SIX60 concert in a capacity as a St John volunteer ambulance officer for the last two concerts in Auckland\u2014I\u2019ve dealt with multiple patients; one was critical. We actually had to physically ventilate the patient, one that was having a seizure in the mosh pit as the result of drugs, and trying to extract them in darkness with torches and trying to manage that is significant. The reality is no testing would have avoided the situation in that regard, and I think the information for those individuals of the risks around drug taking\u2014for most, they may say, \u201CLook, there\u2019s no risks.\u201D, but I personally have seen the consequences of drug taking and the implications that it does have for individuals and their families. So I\u2019d appreciate some feedback from the Minister on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a96688d7c91a4c1d8321f20e8ac1b7ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a96688d7c91a4c1d8321f20e8ac1b7ab\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m thankful to that member for the insight he\u2019s shared with the experience that he has had at those concerts. I might say, too, when I was the custodian of a student union building and was on duty at some of the big concerts, I saw some pretty horrific consequences of overconsumption of alcohol that were distressing, including a person who after a night on the tequila had walked over the balcony completely out of it, landed on his back and put a bone through his hand, and all the rest of it, and I had to attend to him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EBut the point that he makes, that actually even drug-checking services might make it inevitable that there will be people who can\u2019t be prevented from consuming dangerously; I\u2019m not sure that is necessarily the case. The availability of drug-checking services in a sense in an environment where there is no judgment made and it\u2019s accessible, I think, can go a long way to changing behaviours, as I think the Victoria University research on last summer\u2019s activity around drug-checking services showed. Two-thirds of those who used-drug checking services changed their behaviour, either declined to consume at all or reduced their level of consumption, or took away material that was about harm reduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo to answer the two specific questions the member asked\u2014what L data would go to the director-general under new section 35DDI\u2014I was checking to see whether the bill went up to section 35DDT, because that might deal with some of the problems we had, but no, it didn\u2019t. But new section 35DDI\u2014the purpose of providing that data to the director-general is again a public health approach: let\u2019s build up a profile of the data that\u2019s been gathered, the sort of drugs that are being consumed, the risks that are being taken, because that can then inform some broader public policy, public health initiatives to address dangerous or harmful drug consumption. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIn terms of the second question, how I view that advice, I think the bill makes it very clear in new section 35DDF(2), \u201CThe advice must be about the following harms and how they may be reduced\u201D. And then, if the test is a positive test, there\u2019s a certain amount of advice that has to be given, and if the test is not positive, nevertheless, advice has to be given on harm reduction and the risks and dangers associated with the consumption of that particular substance or any substance of that sort of nature. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo I think that is covered off, and I\u2019m thankful to the committee, who actually put that provision in. I think it\u2019s a useful provision to have and it further sustains the objective of the exercise, which is harm reduction and actually being able to inform, particularly, young people for whom this is often an experimental kind of time, an experimental activity, just to let them know that there are hazards and dangers associated with drugs. Even if the drugs are what they say they are, there can still be hazards that go with it and every effort should be made to keep people informed about that. So I thank the member for those questions. I\u2019m confident that they are covered off in what is in the bill. And again, it is about keeping people safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u002280f3a91074174f7e9097f30f24c1ec15\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280f3a91074174f7e9097f30f24c1ec15\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d just like the Minister to confirm whether section 14(4) of the Misuse of Drugs Act, which provides for the Minister to be able to give approval to grant a licence to any person who has had a conviction under the Misuse of Drugs Act, Darius Fagan means that the Minister could approve, for example, a gang member who had previously had drug convictions to then, at some stage later, get a licence to do the drug testing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u002262e68a410e584196a3a8ff396949c2b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262e68a410e584196a3a8ff396949c2b3\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m just trying to get the section the member Penny Simmonds referred to, which I think was in, clause\u2014I\u2019m not sure if she said clause 14(4), is that what the member wanted? I\u2019m just looking for clause 14. There is no clause 14(4). I think there is, however, a clause 11 that has a section 37B that relates to \u201CRegulations relating to drug and substance checking service providers\u201D, and there\u2019s conditions that have to be met in terms of that, and they are laid out there for all the world to see.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo regulations must prescribe various requirements that a drug-checking service must have, must also prescribe the form of licences, conditions of licences, and there\u2019s a range of other things there as well. So subsection 2 of that section 37B, which is part of clause 11 of the bill, also says regulations may, without limitation, prescribe conditions that specify how the service provider must comply with the conditions imposed in the earlier subsection, and any other requirements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ESo a lot will depend on, or turn on, what happens in those regulations, and, also, then schedule 2 of the bill lays out conditions for decisions on licence applications. So the first condition is: the Director-General of Health may issue a licence if satisfied that, firstly, the applicant is suitable; and secondly, the applicant\u2019s proposed service model, and what have you. So the director-general has to be sure that the person is suitable. I know the National Party has an obsession about gangs and gang members. In the end, this is a piece of legislation about keeping people safe and about people with the right competencies and the right skills and the right profile to do this important task that will keep people safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u002267f4b949f4014ea6806c302d8cb246cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267f4b949f4014ea6806c302d8cb246cc\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E I don\u2019t think the question has been answered yet. I understand that the Minister can give approval to grant a licence to a person who has been convicted under the Act. Can the Minister confirm whether that\u2019s correct or not? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7a6f6e4ee074690b7b404405d24c1ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7a6f6e4ee074690b7b404405d24c1ff\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E It would help in the committee stage for members to refer to the specific parts of the bill. In relation to that, the member refers to a generality. I\u2019ve taken the member through the regulation-making exercise that is now available to the Governor-General by Order in Council on advice from Ministers, and, indeed, then when it comes to licences, requirements that must be met. So I\u2019m not quite sure\u2014if there is a specific part of the bill that the member wants to ask questions about, the member should refer to it rather than just sort of raising generalities, because all she can expect in return is generalities about the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00226aeaff570d714d6c95b2dc515204a7f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226aeaff570d714d6c95b2dc515204a7f9\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I refer to Part 1, and to clause 10, which inserts new section 35DDE, Minister, by my next question. So it relates in regards to the collection of information around the individual when they are going to participate or get some of their drugs tested. And what I\u2019d like the Minister to articulate is in terms of subsections (2)(a) and (2)(b)\u2014paragraph (a) refers to the fact that someone is not required to disclose personal or demographic information: age, sex, gender, or cultural background, but then following that there\u2019s a paragraph to say that, actually, if a service provider does wish to collect that, then they can do so. So what I\u2019m looking for from the Minister there is\u2014and I know in the select committee process there was quite a lot of conversation around the collection of personal information and the pros and cons around that. I think St John\u2019s in particular were one of the providers that noted the ability to collect some information may or may not provide some level of benefit for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EAnd I appreciate that the Minister\u2019s just seeking a little bit of advice and guidance, so I will just continue to elaborate on this point for a little bit longer just so that we\u2019ve got a bit of time. But I think this is important because one of the aspects that was brought up in a lot of the submissions from young people in terms of this bill was the concerns around whether the provision of information would form a barrier or not in terms of them seeking advice. And I just want to get a little bit of comfort from the Minister on whether he feels like we\u2019ve landed in the right place in regards to that or a little bit more context, if I may, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5970436a79445ac96789b28843e6492\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5970436a79445ac96789b28843e6492\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m going to ask the member to heckle loudly. He referred to a clause (2)(a). I\u2019m just trying to understand which\u2014is he talking about clause 10, and this is actually new section 35DDE, subsection (2), paragraph(a)?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022678188b45ed443a79ed8d3719adc79be\u0022\u003ESimon Watts\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274aa9a055ae444308025c269d152add5\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: That is that part, OK. Then, in that respect, that is the regime that requires accurate and appropriate harm reduction information to be given, as the member will see, and then lays out in that subsection (2), in those various bits and pieces there, how the approach is to be taken. So if the test indicates the likely identity, then the advice should be about that specific drug that the person has surrendered for testing. Now, if the test doesn\u2019t indicate the likely identity of the drug or substance but the provider considers that they are able to form a view on its likely identity, then the drug checking service can provide information on that drug or substance that they think that it is and the harms associated with that particular drug or substance. And in any other case where the test doesn\u2019t indicate the likely identity of the drug or substance, nevertheless the harms associated with taking a drug or substance of an unknown identity. So it covers all those off. This is about the person who takes their drugs in for checking getting some information either about the specific substance that they know that is tested positive or general information about the risks associated with drug taking generally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EAnd I might add, because I\u2019ve now identified what it is that the member Penny Simmonds was asking about in Schedule 2 of the bill, and I refer her to clause 4 of Schedule 2 and subclause (2) \u201CThe Director-General of Health must not issue a licence without the Minister\u2019s approval if any relevant person, or an entity of which any relevant person was a responsible person at the time of the conviction or revocation,\u2014(a) has been convicted of an offence against this Act\u201D\u2014that\u2019s the Misuse of Drugs Act\u2014\u201Cor its regulations; or (b) has had a licence under this Act\u201D\u2014including, no doubt, a licence to do this\u2014\u201Crevoked for failing to comply with [the conditions]\u201D. So if the member is asking whether there are circumstances in which a Minister might give approval for that, I cannot imagine. This is about having the right people and appropriate people carrying out the service. It carries a level of responsibility and maturity, and those are the people who we would want permitted to carry out tasks under the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fed1dfa7e49c421f8dbc0da4adbff140\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 87\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 33\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226d921081eb534fc38fdc478975cf4bfe\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to other enactments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00226108bef5d80e4865978f27550af10202\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226108bef5d80e4865978f27550af10202\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 2. Part 2 is the debate on clauses 13 to 20: \u201CAmendments to other enactments\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002271699f4feea14f69a614562ed83e67c4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 87\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 33\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd420f1c71ec4518b94be1cb745e51af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd420f1c71ec4518b94be1cb745e51af\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: We now come to Schedule 1. The question is that Schedule 1 stand part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227b8a7bd8658d4412b03f320e6a1f32b1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 87\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 33\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee9dea7bf9784292abaf92152b7555f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee9dea7bf9784292abaf92152b7555f3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Schedule 2 stand part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d3230006cfc847f5a62c65e24524d04d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 87\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 33\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002275b4747250e04c7ea1b81f340cd9aa01\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b14eafae627b494ca099ab11a254d46d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b14eafae627b494ca099ab11a254d46d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to our final debate. This is the debate on clauses 1 and 2, which are the title and commencement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6326748b6cd4e65ad059eecc1138540\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6326748b6cd4e65ad059eecc1138540\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah, I\u2019ll just take a brief call in regards to this. I guess there was an aspect that the Health Committee did discuss and consider, and that was particularly around the funding element of this bill. As we know, subsequent to this, the Government have come out and said that they\u2019re actually going to be funding this legislation. I think that that comes as quite a surprise in terms of where the conversation was at the select committee, in particular.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI guess, in regards to the title of the bill, I just wanted to sort of float with the Minister a bit of a concept around the introduction of the \u201CPublicly Funded Drug and Substance Checking Legislation Bill (No 2)\u201D, because I think it is pretty significant that, in effect, this is about taxpayers\u2019 money\u2014hard-earned taxpayers\u2019 money out of the pockets of hard-working Kiwis, people that are under considerable stress and pressure and anxiety and all of that in this country at the moment. I think about my colleagues across the country, and particularly in Auckland, and that their taxpayer money is going to be going into, in effect, you know, what\u2019s referred to as party pill testing. I mean, surely this Government has higher priorities in terms of the allocation of scarce public resources than that. I think in regards to the title of this bill, I think it would only be reasonable that it actually articulates what it actually is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u00222b99163c043848c5bc85bd96bf9e0b8a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b99163c043848c5bc85bd96bf9e0b8a\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I take it from the member\u2019s submission just now that he thinks that the title of the bill should be amended to refer to the public funding aspect of it. The Government has announced it will fund up to $800,000 to support service providers. I just make this point to the member because he comes out of the health sector himself\u2014former chief financial officer for a DHB\u2014and I don\u2019t know whether he\u2019s a former or current volunteer for St John Ambulance, but he will know that the consumption of drugs, as with the consumption of other recreational substances, causes harm. And most often, the cost of that harm is borne in our health service. So people consume substances because they don\u2019t know what\u2019s in it, or sometimes they consume substances and they know exactly what\u2019s in it; they just have a lot of it, and they fall over and hit themselves and have to go to hospital. But otherwise, people consume substances, the reality of which they do not know, and then have a reaction that they hadn\u2019t predicted and didn\u2019t know, and it causes them harm. They wind up on the health system as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWe know that the cost of the health system responding to various substances runs into the hundreds of millions of dollars. If you add up the staff time, time taken for equipment to attend to them, the length of stay they might have in the hospital, the use of other countervailing drugs, you might say, and other substances that they have to take in order to clean their systems up and clean themselves out, there\u2019s a cost to that. If we can do something that not only keeps people who consume these substances safe but prevents them from having to draw on the stretched resources of our public health system, then that is a good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI say to the member, I\u2019m prepared to wager that the economic benefit, the economic payback of this bill will be considerably greater than the $800,000 that it will cost to support drug-checking services to carry out these services. They will be dealing with literally hundreds, if not thousands, of people in the summer months and throughout the year. And if we, as a result of those drug-checking services, prevent any number of those people from having to draw upon the public health services, we will have saved money, or at least we will have meant that those resources are available for others who need them at a great time of need. In the middle of a pandemic, we need to know that as much of the health system as possible is available to help people who may be infected with the mighty coronavirus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022341b28ecedcd45a7b30abc470f32c3e1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 87\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 33\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b730c081e6784d09ad32e973153708a1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 87\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 33\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000544\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00224ee8d69ac3ca49fbb42450a3a7fc86e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ee8d69ac3ca49fbb42450a3a7fc86e2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Drug and Substance Checking Legislation Bill (No 2) and reports it without amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222ed414c7ecab4d1e9d47690273562098\u0022\u003EEducation and Training (Teaching Council Fees, Levies, and Costs) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ca94d1a8c8e342d6bf305c1f4f2fa407\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022 data-id=\u00225c9655bbfb814ddd99924035c93d8cb0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c9655bbfb814ddd99924035c93d8cb0\u0022\u003EHon POTO WILLIAMS (Minister for Building and Construction)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Education: I present a legislative statement on the Education and Training (Teaching Council Fees, Levies, and Costs) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f47e9e5233c04c7fafbca0c260372bc5\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227755100350d4ce8b259fd28e47a9bed\u0022\u003EHon POTO WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Education and Training (Teaching Council Fees, Levies, and Costs) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003ETo ensure the safety of our children and young people and the quality of the teaching they receive, it\u2019s essential that we have effective regulation of the teaching profession. The Teaching Council of Aotearoa New Zealand is the professional body for teachers. The core functions of the council include the registration, certification, and discipline of teachers. The council also sets minimum standards for ensuring high-quality teaching and provides professional leadership activities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EA significant proportion of the council\u2019s income comes from fees paid by teachers to be registered and hold a practising certificate. This bill rectifies a legislative anomaly relating to the council\u2019s fee-setting powers and makes changes essential for the council\u2019s financial sustainability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EAuthority for the council to charge fees for the recovery of costs is provided under the Education and Training Act 2020. However, in a case taken earlier this year by the Post Primary Teachers\u2019 Association (PPTA), the High Court found that the Act only allows for the council to fix fees in relation to some of its functions. There is a significant gap between what the council is required to do and what the Act allows it to charge for. The gap is unintentional and needs to be addressed. The policy is that the council should be able to recover the costs of its mandatory functions from teachers. The bill amends the Act to give effect to that policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EFees are the only cost recovery mechanism provided for in the Act. However, the costs related to some of the council\u2019s functions are more appropriately recovered through levies because they relate to activities undertaken for the benefit of the profession, rather than as specific services for individual teachers. The bill addresses this issue by enabling the council to set fees and impose levies, as appropriate. This will improve the transparency of the council\u2019s cost recovery process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003ETwo of the bill\u2019s measures are aimed specifically at addressing concerns from many teachers who submitted on the bill about the potential for the council to set unreasonable or unaffordable fees. The first of these is a requirement for the council to ensure that fees and levies only cover the actual and reasonable costs of performing the council\u2019s functions and exercising its powers. The second is a requirement for the council to consult with the teaching profession and to receive views presented to it with an open mind and to give due consideration to those views when making decisions about fees. While the requirement to consult is already a well-established principle of administrative law, making it explicit in the Act provides the profession with greater assurance that consultation on fees and levies will be genuine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EI want now to briefly touch on the retrospective validation provisions, which I outlined in greater detail during the bill\u2019s second reading. I want to reiterate how important it is that the council be able to operate from a position of legal certainty. To that end, the bill retrospectively validates fees previously set and received by the council and its predecessor organisations, with one exception: it does not validate the annual fees made under the May 2020 order that also promulgated the change from three-yearly to annual certification.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EThe council\u2019s decisions to change from three-yearly to annual certification and fees were overturned by the court in the PPTA case, and the previous arrangements were, effectively, reinstated. The bill does not change this position. It does, however, allow the council to retain the annual fees that have already been paid, credit these in part payment of the reinstated three-yearly fee that now applies, and require payment of the balance. This is more efficient than refunding the annual fees and invoicing those teachers, who have since had their annual certificate replaced by a three-year certificate, for the reinstated fee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EAt the time of the bill\u2019s second reading, I advised members that we were in conversations with the council about their professional leadership function and who should bear the cost of carrying out that function. These conversations were informed by submissions on the bill from teachers and their representatives. Many teachers support the Teaching Council carrying out its core regulatory functions and using registration and practice fees to fund these activities, but they strongly object to their fees being used to fund activities related to the council\u2019s professional leadership functions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EDuring the committee of the whole House stage, the committee amended the bill to address this concern. There are three aspects to these amendments. First, the council\u2019s functions are separated into mandatory and optional functions. The professional leadership functions are optional, and all other functions are mandatory. Second, the optional professional leadership functions can only be performed with the approval of the Minister of Education. Third, the council can only charge fees and levies to recover the costs of the mandatory functions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EIt is important that the council\u2019s mandatory functions focus on teachers. The optional functions approved by the Minister should continue to be funded by the Government because they are focused on the profession more broadly. This change will help to clearly distinguish support for growing and improving the capability of principals, which the Government has committed to, from the council\u2019s role in ensuring safe and high-quality teaching.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EI want to close by thanking all of those teachers and their representatives who made submissions on the bill during the level 4 lockdown. That input has resulted in amendments that should give teachers confidence that future fees and levies will only be used to recover costs that should be borne by teachers, and will be set in place through a process that is transparent and inclusive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EThis legislation will support the financial sustainability of the council so that children, their wh\u0101nau, and the broader public can have confidence that the professional regulator charged with ensuring safe, high-quality teaching will be able to operate effectively. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002286048a618878492694222c5fcc36e48b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286048a618878492694222c5fcc36e48b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b97800ba2d624ca3a7e9c9b3eb84940e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b97800ba2d624ca3a7e9c9b3eb84940e\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Look, we in the National Party won\u2019t be supporting this legislation, as we haven\u2019t throughout. The memorable moment for me in the select committee process, the very highly truncated select committee process that didn\u2019t give the teaching profession much of a chance to have a say about this legislation, was one teacher who had\u2014remember, what happened is this bill was introduced, went off to select committee for a very short period of time when we were all in lockdown. So we had a whole lot of very angry teachers who had been trying to teach through Zoom or some other temporary way during the lockdown, were harassed and slightly irritated, then having to find the time to make a submission, again by Zoom, on this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe memorable one was from one teacher who said, \u201CWell, it appears that this bill is because the Teaching Council is short of money. Well, I\u2019ve got a message for you and the committee: I\u2019m short of money too and I don\u2019t see why we should be rushing through this legislation to save them a few bob while I\u2019m struggling here in lockdown and having a bad time.\u201D I have to say, we had a fair bit of sympathy for him, because notwithstanding the real concerns that we have about the mathematical skills in the education system across the board, I think everybody could work out that paying $220 once every three years was not improved very much if you went to $157 every year\u2014$157 \u00D7 3 is a little bit more than $220! So these teachers were, quite rightly, not very happy with the proposed hefty increase in fees, which was the stimulus for the court case, which is the stimulus for this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo what we were left with, given the pickle that the Teaching Council had got themselves into, was this Government\u2019s rush to bring in this legislation to try and tidy up the mess that had been created by the Teaching Council. We have some sympathy for the need for them to collect their levies, and we absolutely support the mandated role that the council needs to perform. It\u2019s about ensuring that teachers are properly registered, that they\u2019re certified, and that the disciplinary side of things is dealt with. You know, there\u2019s an argument that the National Party stood in the last election saying that there shouldn\u2019t be fees, this should be something that\u2019s covered by Government, and we campaigned on that. This Government hasn\u2019t picked that up and that\u2019s up to them, and there\u2019s a perfectly plausible argument that the profession should pay for this independently in order to have a sense that this is something that they as a profession pay for, like many other professions do. So, OK, we\u2019ll make that decision; that carries on and people support that. But where it got very messy was the extension of the Teaching Council into a whole raft of other things, and we\u2019re all familiar with Unteach Racism and the professional development side of things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ENow, the Minister quite often pointed out that, well, yes, but a lot of that is funded separately and it\u2019s not necessarily being paid for by the teachers. But what we saw was a huge gulf in understanding between the profession who were paying these levies and the soothing words coming from officialdom, which pointed towards the overarching lack of trust that seems to have developed. And so the issue that we face, of course, is, well, it\u2019s not going to help that relationship of trust if when a problem arises, because of decisions made by the Teaching Council, there\u2019s a court case, the Government rushes through legislation and doesn\u2019t go through a proper process in order to sort it out and reassure the sector and the teachers themselves that what is being done is appropriate. Instead, during a lockdown, when everybody\u2019s under pressure, they rush it through and tidy it up as quickly as they can without resolving the broader issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe broader issue that needs to be resolved and discussed properly is exactly how do we ensure that the Teaching Council doesn\u2019t have a bad case of elephantiasis and is sort of getting into all sorts of other stuff? Because what we\u2019ve seen\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240197533e4d3488b9a619a8f94d21528\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: You leave elephantiasis alone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fc95f2061e242078c2514bb4e87c3d3\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s right. What we\u2019ve seen is a steady and significant increase in the costs of the Teaching Council. Its estimates for its operating costs in 2021 were $18.3 million. How they broke that down\u2014the problem is that their fees are only $4.9 million and therein lies the problem. They\u2019ve increased their spending and staff very considerably. So it\u2019s all a bit sort of murky. What\u2019s all this about? Is it about the basic registration and certification and disciplinary side of things? Or are they getting into all sorts of other nice-to-haves, which, if the Government wants to, the Government can pay for if they think it\u2019s a priority?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EBy the way, I don\u2019t think their priorities in education spending are very good. They\u2019re all over the place. If I was to say that there\u2019s a priority, the priority should be making sure that the kids actually go to school. That\u2019s a very good place to start. And you know, having only three out of five attending regularly is not a good place to start and it\u2019s where we are. So that would be my priority. But this Government has all sorts of other priorities\u2014telling people what they should think on various topics and getting side-tracked by strange curriculum reviews. That is why there is a little bit of disquiet, I suppose, across the board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo here we get to the situation that we\u2019re at, the third reading. Every other party in the House doesn\u2019t agree with this piece of legislation, but this Government is ramming it through under urgency\u2014well, under a truncated process. The problem with that, and where they sadly haven\u2019t sort of learnt their lesson, is that we\u2019re here because we\u2019re trying to fix up a legislative kink and a mistake made by a bureaucracy. Isn\u2019t there a very high chance, now that this Government has come and brought in legislation very quickly to fix it under a short select committee process\u2014the Minister halfway through has come up with what\u2019s called an SOP, a Supplementary Order Paper, and changes, has fiddled around with it because the bill that they introduced didn\u2019t do the job. So they fiddled around and they\u2019ve made a few other changes to try and tighten things up. And they\u2019ve sort of put something in here and a little bit there, and they\u2019ve tweaked it a bit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EI can almost guarantee\u2014almost guarantee\u2014that some time next year we\u2019ll be back again, fixing up the mistake that the Government has made this time, because, once again, they\u2019re rushing it through and not taking the time to get it right, all because of the problems created by the Teaching Council. So, look, we\u2019re not all out to make life difficult for the Teaching Council\u2014good people doing good work\u2014but there is a sort of a sense that they\u2019re being let off the hook rather easily with rushed legislation, poor consultation, and an atmosphere of distrust with the profession itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EIt created a slightly unusual dynamic, I\u2019m bound to say. We found ourselves very much on the side of the Post Primary Teachers\u2019 Association (PPTA), and I think that\u2019s important in terms of a sense of bipartisanship across the board. Quite often people assume that there is not a meeting of minds between the National Party and the PPTA, but you\u2019ll find quite often that indeed there are many things that we agree on. We certainly agree on the importance of getting children to school, for example, and that\u2019s a topic that we\u2019ve had many fruitful discussions on and there\u2019s much work to be done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EAnd on this issue, we understood their overarching concerns about the sense that the profession is not being valued as much as it should be by this Government. They had high hopes when they came in. They had high hopes that that education and teaching would be a real focus. As it\u2019s turned out, not much has happened, really. There\u2019s been a lot of reviews\u2014a lot of reviews\u2014a lot of working groups, a lot of proposals, a lot of change started rolling, but not much in the way of completion. This piece of legislation, unfortunately, is all they\u2019ve come up with and all they\u2019re going to soon deliver on, and I\u2019m not sure that it\u2019s going to help a great deal. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022 data-id=\u002204b0c859bb32414b871ddaa650b57683\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204b0c859bb32414b871ddaa650b57683\u0022\u003EMARJA LUBECK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker, delighted to take a call on this piece of legislation. The previous member mentioned bipartisanship, and I have to say that I generally work quite collegiately with Mr Paul Goldsmith. We have, I think, a very collaborative relationship and we get some things done, but we do have different memories, it seems, on how this particular piece of legislation went through the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EWe had more than a thousand written submissions\u2014in fact, 1,030, if my memory serves me well\u2014and about 112 came before the committee and gave us all evidence, so every single submitter that wanted to had that opportunity. What I do remember is yes, there was quite a lot of concern and there were questions about this legislation, but also what I do remember is the passion and the love that shone through from all of those submitters on the work that they do as teachers. Whether they were brand new teachers or long-serving ones\u2014we had three teachers with 40-plus years under their belt, people like Denis Wright, Anna Heinz, and Moyeen McCoy, all really impressive submitters telling us their concerns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EBut the most important thing is\u2014and I want to, in my very short contribution, touch on that\u2014that the main concerns that we heard through the submissions were, in fact, addressed. The way that we reported this bill back to the House made a couple of changes through the Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) that the Minister spoke about in the last debate. So that was the concern on the council potentially being able to set unreasonable fee increases and teachers\u2019 fees being used to fund the council\u2019s leadership functions. People didn\u2019t agree with it, we heard it, the Minister agreed, the Minister made changes. While those changes sat slightly outside the scope of this original bill, the concerns were addressed by way of the SOP debated last week, and so the SOP made it very clear that the leadership functions cannot be paid for by teachers\u2019 fees or levies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EWhile I mention the word \u201Clevies\u201D, it would be remiss of me to not say thank you to the Regulations Review Committee for their input here. I remember Rachel Brooking in the committee of the whole House speaking about a delightful exercise they had in giving this committee their advice. So it was a truncated process that had to happen because, of course, otherwise there was a risk that the Teaching Council could potentially become insolvent, and that had to be avoided at all risk. I just want to finish here with a quote from my learned colleague, Duncan Webb\u2014\u201CChopper\u201D\u2014\u201CThis is an important piece of legislation [here which basically is] to correct an error inherent in the National Party\u2019s previous work.\u201D So I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022db607ff9be184433bbac65f8b352a051\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db607ff9be184433bbac65f8b352a051\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m happy to take a call on the Education and Training (Teaching Council Fees, Levies, and Costs) Amendment Bill. Can I just start by saying that, boy, we certainly do have different memories about what went on at the Education and Workforce Committee, because while those teachers may have passion and love for what they do, passion and love was not what they brought to the select committee. More anger and frustration, in a process that was less than ideal, that was truncated, that gave them hardly any time to submit\u2014during lockdown, where they were trying to manage students online, students in class, and only had a very short time to get their thoughts together. They were very angry at the way that they had been treated by the Teaching Council. They were very angry at the way that they\u2019d been treated by this Minister of Education through this process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EAnd there was really no need, and I\u2019ll touch on that in my speech, but I just want to make the point back to the chair of our committee that there didn\u2019t need to be a truncated process. We put this to the Minister at the committee of the whole House stage, where we said, \u201CWhat was holding you back? What date was there that something awful was going to happen, that we needed to get this through so quickly? What was it that meant that you couldn\u2019t keep the transitional funding in place for just an extra two weeks, to give these poor teachers, who were bearing the brunt of COVID-19, having to teach online\u201D\u2014and I feel sorry for them, because I hear them every day trying to teach my kid at the kitchen table; half of them with their microphones on, half the kids singing away with the fairies. These poor teachers had a week and a half, around about, to get their thoughts together, and there was no reason for that. The Minister could have, if he had wanted to, put that transitional funding in place for at least a couple more weeks, to give them time. So what the chair of the committee is saying just doesn\u2019t stack up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThis bill will pass into law today, not because it\u2019s a well-thought-out and carefully considered piece of legislation; not because the Minister is on top of his portfolio, with his finger on the pulse, and knows what\u2019s going on with the Teaching Council and is in tune with the Post Primary Teachers\u2019 Association (PPTA); and certainly not because we took, you know, a great deal of time to consider this bill\u2014certainly not; not because we gave stakeholders all the time in the world to gather their thoughts in order to write down their written submissions and prepare oral submissions. Labour will use their majority tonight to pass this piece of legislation into law to fix up what is a very embarrassing problem for them, which happened under their watch. It did not happen under our watch. It did not happen under a National Government; it happened under this Minister\u2019s watch, because he does not have his finger on the pulse. Under this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c90e0a75024452f91c30493200333f8\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: 2015.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227556a20019644b1ea780f06c6eb56392\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, here we go. Here\u2019s the interjection\u2014and this is the whole reason that the Minister has tried to back out of how this is not his problem. Oh, it was something that the National Party did back in 2015; they didn\u2019t quite get the law right! Let me make it clear: this happened under his watch. Any good Minister with his finger on the pulse would have known what the Teaching Council were up to: building their empire; hiring more staff, increasing their staff costs from, what was it, $5 million in 2016 to over $8 million in 2020; not consulting properly with the sector; taking what was a triannual registration to a yearly registration, increasing teachers\u2019 costs. Any Minister with his finger on the pulse, if he knew what was going on, would have headed this off at the pass. And I say to whoever that member was that said, \u201COh, it was a 2015 problem.\u201D: this happened under this Minister\u2019s watch because he didn\u2019t have his finger on the pulse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThis did not need to go to court. The PPTA did not have to take this to court, because you can\u2019t tell me that the Minister hadn\u2019t been told by the PPTA early on, \u201CHey, the Teaching Council are out of control. They\u2019re empire-building, their costs are increasing, they\u2019re going beyond their mandate, they\u2019re doing things that teachers don\u2019t want, they\u2019re not properly consulting with the sector.\u201D They can\u2019t tell me that the Minister didn\u2019t know that. And he did nothing. It clearly indicates that there is a Minister quite busy with another portfolio that he has, and ignoring what is going on right under his nose. These things happened under his watch. Those staff costs increased $3 million under his watch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s just talk about consultation for a moment, because in the court\u2019s decision, they came down quite hard on the Teaching Council about their lack of consultation with the sector. They talked in detail about this unlawful tax and the fact that the teaching profession and the sector were not adequately consulted. And then, to add insult to injury, or rub salt in the wound, this Minister thinks it\u2019s OK to acknowledge their concerns about the lack of consultation by having a truncated process in which there\u2019s no proper consultation. I mean, it\u2019s absolutely ridiculous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThe poor teachers, no wonder they feel the way they did in the select committee, where they were angry and upset and furious at the Minister and this Government, something that\u2019s unheard of, usually, with the PPTA and the teaching profession. They were furious. They were not filled with love and passion at select committee; they were furious. They\u2019d just been through a process where they felt like they weren\u2019t listened to. They weren\u2019t adequately consulted with. The PPTA said the same, the judge said the same, and here\u2019s the Minister, rubbing salt into that fresh wound, saying, \u201CHey, by the way, teachers, you\u2019ve got to have two weeks to get your thoughts together, during term time, during lockdown.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EHow is that building any trust and confidence in a sector that already feels let down by the Teaching Council under this Minister\u2019s watch? I challenge anyone on the other side of the House in our select committee to tell me why it is, how this ever even got to court. Why did the Minister not have his finger on the pulse? Why did he not know what was going on? Any Minister would have said to that Teaching Council, \u201CPull up your socks, tighten your belt, stop hiring more staff, get back to your core duties, and remember\u201D\u2014sorry, Madam Speaker\u2014\u201Cremember that teachers don\u2019t have deep pockets.\u201D They are facing the same quite rapidly rising cost of living that everyone else is. Their petrol, their groceries, their electricity\u2014everything\u2019s going up. They do not have deep pockets to pay for whatever the Teaching Council decides is OK for them to charge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EAnd what has the Teaching Council learnt from all of this? Have they learnt that they need to consult properly? Oh, certainly not after the Minister\u2019s behaviour and truncating the process. Have they learnt that they need to tighten their belts? Let\u2019s see, if you look at the legislation that he brought to the House, we had to amend it to put in there that they had to consult properly, because the Minister didn\u2019t even put that in the legislation. We had to do that. Furthermore, he had to bring a Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) to the House, when he should have well known that that\u2019s what the sector was so upset about. They didn\u2019t want the leadership functions in that. OK, he fixed it up at SOP stage, but that\u2019s something that he should have brought forward in primary legislation, further showing that he doesn\u2019t have his finger on the pulse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EI suppose the one thing that was the most disappointing, which has been pointed out by speakers in previous stages of this bill, and the one thing that was missing from this Minister was a mea culpa, was an \u201CI\u2019m really sorry\u201D to the sector: \u201CI\u2019m really sorry that the Teaching Council have done this to you. I\u2019m really sorry that you weren\u2019t consulted with properly. I\u2019m really sorry that there was an unlawful tax that was put upon you. I\u2019m really sorry in the manner that you feel like you aren\u2019t properly represented by the Teaching Council.\u201D None of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EIn fact, what we get is a Minister that\u2019s trying to sweep this under the rug like this dirty little problem didn\u2019t happen under his watch, via this bill, in a truncated process during lockdown, and hoping that people wouldn\u2019t notice. Well, the fact that so many submitters submitted to our select committee was despite the fact that there was a truncated process; we can only imagine how many more we would have had, how many more angry, frustrated teachers we would have had, had we had a proper process. This bill is fixing up a dirty little problem that happened under this Minister\u2019s watch because he\u2019s not on top of his job, and this Government is here tonight passing this into law despite all those things that I\u2019ve said, and we will not be supporting this bill. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022c370fe6e403e4bcfbdd3852b440af376\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c370fe6e403e4bcfbdd3852b440af376\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. So I think it\u2019s important, really, not to go through a lot of the history of this bill, which has been covered ad nauseam at some stages in all the previous readings. So what I will do is just go back to basics in addressing some of the concerns that the previous speaker, Erica Stanford, addressed in her speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo, first of all, this bill was introduced to address an urgent issue which clearly needed to be resolved and was directly linked to the Teaching Council\u2019s ability to pay for their work. Now, their work is to register teachers in New Zealand. This is important work. It\u2019s work that we need as a country, and it\u2019s work that teachers need in order to have faith in their profession and in order to carry on with their important work. So it was absolutely important that they had the ability to raised funds, and this what this bill is about. It allows them to continue with their work to raise funds to regulate the teaching profession within New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI also just wanted to make a few comments on the Minister of Education. He\u2019s an incredibly hard-working Minister who is on top of his portfolio and knows every corner of the education sector. He\u2019s been working in education for over 20 years. He\u2019s incredibly passionate about the subject and is absolutely on top of every element of his portfolio, despite the huge workload that he has. So I absolutely refute any suggestions that he is not on top of his portfolio. In fact, what occurred in this particular instance was a decision made by an independent body, the Teaching Council, to raise fees on 1 February 2021. This legislation was introduced\u2014introduced into the House\u2014on 12 August. So we, obviously, know that there was a judicial review that happened in the meantime, but that doesn\u2019t suggest a Minister who is ignoring the profession. It doesn\u2019t suggest a Minister who is not on top of the issues. It suggests a Minister that cares about the fact that teachers are regulated within New Zealand, recognises that the Teaching Council has an important job to do in providing that work, and provides legislation to immediately be able to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EWe had a very, very thorough process\u2014although it was a truncated process, I don\u2019t think that that necessarily means that it\u2019s not a thorough or proper process\u2014at select committee. As you\u2019ve heard, we had over 1,000 submitters. They had a very high quality of submissions that they put forward to us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo I think the important message, really, from this is that what we have in this situation is an issue that arose, the issue arose because of the fact that people are allowed to take judicial reviews, which is something that we should all celebrate in this country. Because it threw up an issue, the Minister then introduced legislation to the House in order to fix it, to allow a very important public body to continue their functions. So I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022a47c1b5c21a74029b0052bfde9f41935\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a47c1b5c21a74029b0052bfde9f41935\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s great to take a call on behalf of the Green Party on this really important piece of legislation. It was really great to hear that the National Party is supporting the Post Primary Teachers\u2019 Association (PPTA), and I hope what that means is that when they come asking for better pay and conditions, that support will continue, and what I would also say to them is, when the New Zealand Education Institute come asking for support as well around pay parity and supporting early childhood education teachers, that that will also happen as well. So I look forward to their continued support of what our teachers and the teachers\u2019 unions are calling for in terms of all their pay and conditions\u2014good luck to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve taken quite a bit of interest in this bill, and at the heart of it, it is about trust. It\u2019s about trust between the teaching profession and the Teaching Council as well, but also the massive strain that that trust has come under. And so, not wanting to re-talk out the history of stuff like that, there was the judicial review, there was this legislation that\u2014for me, at least\u2014came rushed into the House as well. But I think it\u2019s really important to remember that the context of all those particular events have happened within the pandemic; it\u2019s happened within a pandemic. So we already have teachers that are already doing all that they can do to support our students, to support our children and what they\u2019re doing, whether they\u2019re zooming into their classrooms to support our teachers to do a very, very difficult job as well, and then we\u2019ve also got this happening as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003ENot to mention that the vaccine mandates, I know, talking to some of my friends in the teaching profession\u2014the sorts of pressures that that has put on them as well, the sorts of uncertainly. I mean, and I do know that it\u2019s only a very small number of teachers that haven\u2019t taken up that mandate as well. But if you\u2019re organising from a practical level your new teachers, what you will do with the relieving pool\u2014so, for example, maybe some of the people that you might need to rely on in that relieving pool, they\u2019re actually at the retiring end of the spectrum, so they might not be able to step in and support those particular schools as well. So it is in that context that we have rushed this legislation through the House. It has been rushed through the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EDuring the committee of the whole House, I thought we had a really good discussion with the Minister, and we were supportive of the Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) that came to the House as well. So it was good that after what\u2014I felt\u2014came through the Zoom hui was a lot of frustration, particularly from the PPTA, particularly from those teachers affiliated with the PPTA, but also with the rank and file of other unions and also independent teachers as well, there was some acknowledgment that things weren\u2019t well, that this legislation wasn\u2019t drafted in the most timely and most constructive way possible, hence the arrival of the SOP. And so we were supportive of the SOP. However, as the great philosopher from South Auckland Ardijah says:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003ETime makes the wine\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003ELike love it grows stronger\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EI think we needed to be a lot more timely with this particular bill because of that pressure, because of that pressure that we are placing upon teachers, on the teaching profession, within this context as well. And rushing things through makes it very, very difficult for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EBecause at the heart of it is that trust. We all want that trust in the institutions. We want trust in the Teaching Council\u2014I hope we want trust in the Teaching Council, because it\u2019s the same thing when we have trust in all of our institutions. The success of our response to the pandemic has been because of our trust in the health institutions, our trust within health experts, and our trust within our community leaders that are fronting the pandemic response as well. Well, it\u2019s the same thing in education. It\u2019s exactly the same thing in education; we build up trust in our institutions, within our schools, our school communities, our professional bodies, our teachers\u2019 unions, and, of course, the Teaching Council as well. When you build that trust in, everything else flows a lot more easily.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EI wanted this piece of legislation to build on that trust. I wanted this legislation to help to carve out a pathway so that the teachers\u2014particularly those ones affiliated with the PPTA\u2014could say, well, actually, this is a pathway which encourages trust. This is a pathway that encourages trust. But it\u2019s hard to do that when they have those pressures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EI like the direction of the SOP, but there were a couple of things in there which were still uncertain for me. I understand that the leadership provisions will focus on the registration and the licensing of teachers. That\u2019s really important. I think everybody around the House, even over there, here as well, really sort of emphasised the role of the Teaching Council in terms of the registration and the licensing and that sort of thing. So having exemplars about what that might mean makes sense for me from a leadership perspective as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EAnd then there was also that talk about, well, if it\u2019s other stuff which is not related to that, the Government will not support and fund those kinds of things as well. But there was a grey area for me, and so when I asked the Minister around those leadership provisions, out of three examples, and one of them was to provide leadership to teachers and directions for the education profession. So you could probably fit that within the registration bit, maybe, to enhance the status of teachers and education leaders. I don\u2019t think that part fits in with the registration and licensing part, it probably falls into the second part, so I\u2019m not sure how that might actually eventuate practically. And the third part is about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d601885ebd44fd795b196415a4c9399\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Order! In the third reading speech, the member will reflect on the bill as it sits on the Order Paper and as it is presented to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288f09fa3c3bb437f9b675fb2d60b18c1\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO\u003C/span\u003E: OK. Thank you, Madam Speaker. And so, for me, those points weren\u2019t clear. But I think if we took the time to walk with those teachers, given the pressures that they\u2019re under, we would have got that clarity. And I did hear, at the second reading, over there, that people were saying, well, maybe it\u2019s one week or two weeks or three weeks\u2014it could be a lot longer than that. From our perspective, if it\u2019s for a public good, if it supports accessible, free education, it is something that should be supported, and at the heart of that is that trust, in all of our institutions but in this case within the Teaching Council. I don\u2019t think, with this piece of legislation, that we\u2019re there yet. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022 data-id=\u00224ac394220f804521b375b0d8712ff927\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ac394220f804521b375b0d8712ff927\u0022\u003ECHRIS BAILLIE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of ACT in opposition to the Education and Training (Teaching Council Fees, Levies, and Costs) Amendment Bill, a bill which seeks to allow the Teaching Council to set fees to fund its operations. The bill is required due to a series of unfortunate decisions and circumstances. Teachers need a Teaching Council. It\u2019s an important body required for regulating the teaching profession and the certification of its teachers, but they have moved outside the scope that the teachers had given them into professional development that the teachers really hadn\u2019t asked for and, subsequently, that requires the increased fees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EAfter consulting with the teaching profession, the Teaching Council decided that annual registration was the way to go, and this is when things really started to go wrong. They didn\u2019t listen to the consultation that they received from teachers who overwhelmingly didn\u2019t want a change from the three-year registration to the annual registration. The registration process is a stressful time for everyone\u2014teachers, administrators, and principals\u2014and it just adds that extra layer of stress. As it turned out, as we know, it took the Post Primary Teachers\u2019 Association case to the High Court to have it reversed. So it just wasn\u2019t done properly. It\u2019s this sort of behaviour that has led the teaching profession to really distrust, rightly or wrongly, the Teaching Council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EWhen I renewed my registration last year, it was a really hot topic at the time and at the time I and my teaching colleagues couldn\u2019t believe that the Teaching Council believed it was quite justified in raising their fee from $220 every three years to $157 every year. Even those teachers who didn\u2019t teach maths could work out that it was a pretty big increase from $220 to $471 every three years, and now they\u2019re up with a wage freeze. I was in the Education and Workforce Committee and heard many of the submitters, and lots of issues were brought up, like the extra powers, the rushed process\u2014was questions being mentioned a few times tonight\u2014the concern that the Teaching Council weren\u2019t the right people to provide the professional development, that the requirements keep changing and requiring teachers to receive professional development for these changes, and whether the Teaching Council, the body for discipline of the teachers, was the appropriate body to provide the professional development and leadership. Many mentioned the salaries of the Teaching Council staff\u2014they weren\u2019t happy with that. There\u2019s a certain amount of annoyance that the Teaching Council had a budget, so they should work within it, like everyone else, and almost every submitter was concerned about the lack of consultation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, the change in wording in section 479(2) that says \u201Cwith the written approval of the Minister\u201D doesn\u2019t give any cause for reassurance. Teachers look at this whole fiasco with a huge degree of suspicion. There are big problems with our education system already, with truancy a major concern, literacy and numeracy standards spiralling downwards, teacher training and retention issues, dubious curriculum decisions being made with very little thought as to what happens next\u2014how are they taught? Who\u2019s going to teach them? And millions of dollars being poured into a restructure. When they hear the Ministry of Education say, \u201CThere\u2019s a risk that those who paid the $157 dollars for an annual certificate could refuse to pay the remaining $63 owing for the 2023 year certificate with which they have now been issued. This does not meet the criterion of fairness.\u201D, they\u2019re quite rightly wondering where the Government\u2019s priorities are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003ESo, in summary: consultation was asked for, albeit in a truncated process, and it was received loud and clear. Teachers want to know what the point of consultation is if it\u2019s going to be ignored. The Teaching Council has an important role to play in the registration and discipline of teachers\u201440 percent of the Teaching Council\u2019s budget is spent on disciplinary processes. Maybe it should be more. Do it well, be more efficient. It\u2019s affecting people\u2019s lives and reputations. Leave the professional development required by specialist subject areas, like science or music, to the experts who understand already what is required. One of the professional leadership aspects of the Teaching Council\u2019s work is \u201Cto encompass matters such as promoting inclusion, discouraging racism, and affirming the need to have high aspirations for all students.\u201D I would argue that all of these should be addressed in the recruitment process. If not, maybe that\u2019s what the Teaching Council should be concentrating on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EThe other responsibilities that have developed over the years need to be reassessed. The Teaching Council have a lot of work to do to gain back the confidence of the people it represents. They must have the trust and respect of teachers. ACT accepts this bill will pass and sincerely hopes that the Teaching Council works very hard to remedy the disconnect it has with teachers that is so evident. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u00224b410242cb224198986d7f4a9e263161\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b410242cb224198986d7f4a9e263161\u0022\u003EJO LUXTON (Labour\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to stand and take a call on this piece of legislation. Before I begin my contribution this evening I would, though, like to acknowledge all the teachers and students around Aotearoa New Zealand, right from early childhood education to primary to secondary to tertiary, who have had one heck of a year. It\u2019s been tough, and so I think it\u2019s important to acknowledge them, the hard work and the challenging ways that they\u2019ve had to teach and learn during this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EWe have heard that this piece of legislation has come about due to some issues that came about to make changes to the Education Act, to right some wrongs that we determined by a judiciary review. So what we had heard earlier from the previous speaker, Chris Baillie, was that the Teaching Council changed their fees from a triannual fee structure to an annual fee structure, with an increased amount per annum. As a person who\u2019s come from the education sector I did find this quite an interesting piece of legislation to go through. We have heard we had over 1,000 submissions and a large number of people that wanted to submit to the select committee, and I acknowledge those teachers who did that through those trying times. Our teachers across New Zealand, they are passionate about education, they are passionate about the children, and they are passionate when they present to a select committee. So we heard a lot of passion from them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EWhat we have with this piece of legislation is that it retrospectively validates the receipt of fee payments that were made from 1 February 2021. Even though those fees have since been quashed, teachers that paid those fees at that time with this piece of legislation are still able to have those fees that they paid credited against the new fees that have been set. So the council doesn\u2019t have to go through the process of reimbursing everyone and then people paying back the correct amount. So it\u2019s just fixes up that as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EOne of the things that we did hear loud and clearly from the teachers was that they did feel that they hadn\u2019t had much consultation at all from the Teaching Council. And so whilst that wasn\u2019t quite part of the initial legislation as introduced, the select committee heard their concerns, the Minister heard those concerns, and therefore introduced a Supplementary Order Paper which addressed those concerns, which will ensure that the Teaching Council must consult in a fair way with the teaching sector before they look to make any adjustments to fees further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003ESo without any further ado, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022897b907a7f7c4a3793ade3fdc1830023\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022897b907a7f7c4a3793ade3fdc1830023\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The next call is a split call. I call Nicola Grigg.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022 data-id=\u00222e04b5485a4b4194b9e868a548353085\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e04b5485a4b4194b9e868a548353085\u0022\u003ENICOLA GRIGG (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise to take a short call to add further to my colleagues\u2019 opposition to the Education and Training (Teaching Council Fees, Levies, and Costs) Amendment Bill. Much has been made of the lack of consultation, and I think it\u2019s symptomatic of this Government and its increasing propensity to rush legislation through this House, in spite of public discomfort, in spite of the public feeling it\u2019s being ignored. To take, for example, just recently the introduction of three waters, there\u2019s been the M\u0101ori wards, and now this is the latest and greatest from this Government, who is making a name for itself in its inability to listen to the users on the street. This is yet another piece of legislation that directly contradicts what the people that it will directly impact\u2014that is, the teachers\u2014actually want.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221215b3bceeb9439c97ec53cf0e50cc19\u0022\u003EJo Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: It doesn\u2019t. It\u2019s what they\u2019ve asked for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221daaf9a2c5f34f63a79c7dc8973d86a0\u0022\u003ENICOLA GRIGG\u003C/span\u003E: I note the MP for Rangitata\u2019s got a lot to say. I can assure her in this House that her constituents would like to hear from her every now and then too, so I suggest you get chatty back home instead of in here, Ms Luxton.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EAt the heart of the matter in this bill is that the High Court ruled that the Teaching Council acted unlawfully when it increased its fees for a practising certificate from this triennial system to an annual system\u2014that is the heart of it. It was an unlawful tax. This bill will set fees and impose levies, but what a way to thank the teachers of New Zealand after all the work they have done in this past three months and, indeed, this past year. It\u2019s not a huge amount of money, but that\u2019s not what is at issue here. It is the principle: the principle of the majority of those 1,000 submitters who went before the select committee and opposed this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EWe in this House are being asked to provide retrospective validation of a receipt of payments taken by the Teaching Council, despite that High Court ruling, but we do acknowledge the work of the Teaching Council that it does in regulating the profession, and that it does require revenue. But there should be a very, very high threshold and a very good reason to push through retrospective legislation, and the National Party does not believe this bar has been met here. The precedent it sets is terrible. It is no wonder that every party in this House except the Labour Party has opposed it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EThe Minister mentioned the submissions and the submitter concerns in her opening address, but my read on it is they\u2019re still not listening. These submissions were largely against it. Now, I didn\u2019t even sit on the select committee, but I\u2019ve taken it upon myself to reach out to teachers in my electorate and ask them exactly what they make of it. I know it is a foreign concept to this Government to engage with its stakeholders, but here is what a teacher at a high school in Christchurch wrote to me: \u201CI received this unbelievable email from the New Zealand Teaching Council who have convinced Chris Hipkins to change the law, allowing them to change the fees that they want and potentially go to yearly registration. This was after the council lost in court, so now the Government seeks to change the legislation. The fees after the law change will also be backdated and additional money sought from teachers.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EPaul Goldsmith spoke earlier and made the point that there is a real sense from the profession that it is undervalued. And another constituent of mine has said, \u201CI spoke on this subject at our teacher-only day to a staff who feel deeply unappreciated by our Government. Of course, this is similar to how farmers, doctors, nurses, midwives, police, and ACC staff already feel. I\u2019m seeing growing discontentment from people, even amongst lifelong Labour supporters. Hopefully, people will remember this treatment at the next election.\u201D This teacher raises a very valid point. This Government should be focused on lifting student achievement. Our kids are being left behind the rest of the world through no fault of their own. It should not be focused on ramming through legislation that goes against the grain of what their stakeholders want, in retrospect. It should be listening to their stakeholders, it should be focusing on its core duty of lifting kids\u2019 achievement and giving them a decent future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022279b95d6c12740fa8bbb925856656ac1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022279b95d6c12740fa8bbb925856656ac1\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Speaker. Thank you for allowing me to take a call on the Education and Training (Teaching Council Fees, Levies, and Costs) Amendment Bill. I speak not as a teacher, I speak not as a\u2014well, I\u2019m a student of life, but not a student of education; always learning, always growing. I actually stand as a spouse of a primary school teacher, and, in fact, this coming Friday evening, when many of you may be at home doing whatever you\u2019re doing, I will be actually at his graduation event\u2014he gets his registration; for two years, he retrained, as an adult, as a primary school teacher. So on Friday night, we get to celebrate his achievements of two years as an educator, of two years doing the mahi; the three years and more, beforehand, of his studies, but he will be registered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EWhat I find exciting about that, in the journey over the last few years with him working as a teacher in a school, is seeing the support that is needed, seeing the support that is desperately needed, for our teachers to ensure that they do the mahi, and, like what was just said from our previous speaker, Nicola Grigg, that our tamariki, our rangatahi, are educated well. So ensuring that the council is set up, ensuring that we change this piece of legislation, will make sure that my husband and the teachers around the country will have the supports in place that they need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI just want to close by referring back to the Minister, Chris Hipkins, and thank him for this. He says this legislation really is around supporting our children, the wh\u0101nau, and the broader public so they can have confidence in the professional regulator charged with ensuring safe, high-quality teaching, which they\u2019ll be able to operate effectively. I thank Marja Lubeck from the Education and Workforce Committee, and all of those who heard the submissions, and I look forward to going to my husband\u2019s graduation when he gets his registration on Friday night, and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022c06ba84db98c4b909bc177ad59d60693\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c06ba84db98c4b909bc177ad59d60693\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Congratulations to your husband, Glen Bennett.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022 data-id=\u0022b5cdd80af6104816bea6b5cc0b82cfda\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b5cdd80af6104816bea6b5cc0b82cfda\u0022\u003EIBRAHIM OMER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I too also want to add my congratulations to Jon and my friend Glen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EI rise in support of this Education and Training (Teaching Council Fees, Levies, and Costs) Amendment Bill. This bill is all about provisions in the Education and Training Act 2020, amending provisions in Education and Training Act 2020 to enable the Teaching Council of Aotearoa New Zealand to set fees that cover the costs of all of its functions and powers under the Act. It also clarifies that the council can charge fees in instalments and recover unpaid fees. These changes are consistent with the legislative framework for other professional regulatory bodies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003ENow, we heard a lot about angry teachers. What we have seen is not anger. What we have seen is teachers speaking with passion. But, obviously, the different views that they hold are with the Teaching Council. They did that with the mutual respect. We heard what their concerns were. We listened to them, and because of that the Education and Workforce Committee reports it back, the bill, with three changes as a result of concerns that they raised. No one has\u2014not the Minister and not the committee\u2014actually ignored their concerns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EI want to mention one of those recommendations, that the Education and Workforce Committee required the council to consult with the teaching profession with an open mind and give due regard to the views expressed during the consultation when making decisions about fees. This is one of the things that consistently the teachers raised, and it was reflected back in the report that we sent back to the House. The Minister also has made amendments in his Supplementary Order Paper 68. I want to mention one of his recommendations that the council may only recover costs of its mandatory functions. So this is not the work of a Minister that doesn\u2019t care. The Minister cares, and he\u2019s taken his job seriously, and, hence, we have this legislation tonight in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EIf all this passion and energy from our colleagues on the other side of the House was spent in bettering our education system, we wouldn\u2019t even be here tonight discussing all these issues because we would be OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EThis bill is all about addressing matters that need an urgent response. It does not, in any way, attempt to resolve every possible legislative issue relating to the Teaching Council. With that, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7d5157212e7470ba27b86c171e16d68\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7d5157212e7470ba27b86c171e16d68\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise to speak in opposition to the Education and Training (Teaching Council Fees, Levies, and Costs) Amendment Bill. I first heard about this during the election campaign last year, and my colleague across the way Dr Liz Craig and I were at a teachers\u2019 forum and this was brought up, and that was the first I had heard about it, but I\u2019ve certainly heard plenty since then. I\u2019m interested that the member who has just sat down, Ibrahim Omer, feels that the 1,033 submitters to this amendment have had everything they said heard and responded to, because that\u2019s exactly not what I consider happened in this process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ESo look, I\u2019ve worked with teachers for the last two decades and more, and I want to acknowledge the tremendous passion that teachers have for what they do, and they have to have this passion because it\u2019s a really challenging job that teachers do. I admire enormously, even in a normal situation, the work that teachers have to get through, and over the last two years, my goodness, they have had to change and adapt. I\u2019m not going to use that dreadful \u201Cpivot\u201D word, but they really have had to change the way that they engage with their students, and they have worked incredibly, incredibly hard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EThat passion that our teachers have, the Post Primary Teachers\u2019 Association (PPTA) took to the High Court. Now, you don\u2019t take a High Court matter without being really aggrieved with what has gone on. They took this to the High Court and they won on so many different levels. It must be incredibly disheartening for the PPTA now to find that having gone through that process, having done all that work, having made all these submissions in that very truncated time that they had, which was during school time, it was during the period where most teachers were teaching in lockdown conditions, that, essentially, they have been ignored. They came out in strength and they have, essentially, been ignored.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ENow, the teachers had some very valid grievances. As my colleague from the ACT Party Chris Baillie said, it\u2019s not an insubstantial amount to change from a three-yearly fee of $220 to an annual fee of $157, and to have to go through that registration process. Now, I used to sign off registrations for our early childhood education teachers at the Southern Institute of Technology, and it\u2019s not just a five-minute job for those teachers having to go through that process. So to have to do that every year and then pay more money for the pleasure of doing that extra admin when they have not been consulted with, and then legislation is brought into this House and they are, again, not consulted with adequately, and their concerns have not been heard, is giving one almighty message from this Labour Government to our teachers, and that is: \u201CWe will do what we like to you. We will make the changes that we want to and you will suck it up and like it.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ESo teachers will have taken this on board. They will have seen how this Government has reacted in this situation. They will have seen the rewards that they have been given for the extra work that they\u2019ve put in over the last two years. They will see how this Government intends to treat them when they bring up reasonable grievances, and it is not well, the treatment they are receiving. It is very, very bad treatment of genuine grievances and they should have been treated more respectfully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ENow, look, the Teaching Council does some really important work. It regulates the profession. It deals with disciplinary matters. It deals with the certification and registration of teachers. So these things are really important. But the Teaching Council started to stray from the mandate that the teachers had given them. And we heard, through a number of the submissions, that the teachers wanted their professional development to be subject-specific, and they wanted it to be through the networks of their discipline areas across New Zealand. They did not see this as a role for the Teaching Council, and they asked that the Teaching Council take that from what they intended to do and adjust their budget accordingly, and actually live within their budget, like every other individual and business has to do. When your income is a certain amount, you make sure your expenditure meets that same amount, or else you very quickly get yourself in trouble.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EBut the Teaching Council weren\u2019t prepared to take that message from the teachers. They weren\u2019t prepared to trim their budget. They weren\u2019t prepared to trim their activities. They instead went to the Minister who rolled over and said, \u201CDon\u2019t worry. I\u2019ll just take a new amendment to the Act.\u201D I\u2019ve given up counting how many amendments this Education Act has had in the short time of a year that I\u2019ve been here, but he has brought an amendment to the Act to thwart the teachers\u2019 submissions and thwart the High Court finding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ENow, that\u2019s an extraordinary thing for any Government to do, but it\u2019s an extraordinary thing for a Labour Government to do to a group of teachers, professionals, who would have traditionally been seen as supporters of a Labour Government. These teachers know that they are going through a very difficult time. They know that they have got big issues to solve in the education sector at the moment. They know that truancy was a huge issue before COVID, and it is going to be a really difficult thing for them to pull back on over the next while. They know that they\u2019ve got issues around standards of numeracy and literacy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EI\u2019m sure our teaching profession wish that the Minister would engage in some of these really difficult things that teachers are dealing with: discipline of children in the classroom, class sizes, and resources in the classroom. I\u2019m absolutely certain, and I see it in the schools that I visit, that they are the sort of substantial issues they want this Minister to be engaging with them over.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EBut as, I believe, the Green Party member Teanau Tuiono spoke about earlier, a lot of the trust between the teachers and the Teaching Council and the teachers and the Minister has been eroded through this process. So getting that trust back and enabling those big issues to be debated and ways forward found is going to be an enormous hurdle for those teachers to get over, because they will remember for a very, very long time that when they took their case to the High Court and they won hands down, the Minister stepped in with this legislation and overruled that. They are going to have to overcome that loss of trust when they really need to be looking at the very big-picture issues that our education sector and our young people are going to be suffering under as we try and recover.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EWe have heard nothing from this Government about what they intend to do next year to try and recover, because we cannot just have our young people out of the classroom for 10, 12, 14 weeks and there not be a consequence of it. So we would have expected that our Minister, instead of spending time on an amendment like this, would be spending time on looking at what measures will have to be taken next year to support our teachers, to support our young people to catch up on the learning that they have lost. We oppose this amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9a1a96ba5d4497499e02080c7e67ae1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9a1a96ba5d4497499e02080c7e67ae1\u0022\u003EANGELA ROBERTS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak for the last time on this legislation. We\u2019ve heard a lot tonight about a lack of trust. Some seem surprised on the other side of the House, and they talk about a lack of trust seeming to have developed. But, actually, Mr Baillie and I agree on one thing: we\u2019re really clear about where the trust is broken and how long it\u2019s been like that. The Teaching Council has struggled to build a strong and highly functioning relationship with the profession since 2015, when we had something called the Education Council of Aotearoa New Zealand hit the profession. So we have been struggling for more than a few weeks to try and remedy some of the problems caused at that time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EThe profession did stand up, even though there was COVID and even though there was short notice, and they demonstrated with their significant engagement how important this council is to them and how important it is that we trust in it. Thanks to their engagement, there have been amendments and their concerns have been addressed. I just want to reflect on a couple of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EThe council has been found wanting in their understanding of what appropriate consultation looks like. This legislation will provide them with very clear guidance about what good, effective consultation does actually look like. Clause 5 of the amendment bill makes it clear that the council cannot set fees or levies higher than they need to to cover actual and reasonable costs. So the concerns\u2014the very real concerns\u2014that were brought to the select committee by all of those submitters have been addressed in that the fair and reasonable, actual and reasonable is very much a part of the process now. It makes it clear that the council must consult with the profession, and the consultation must be of good quality. Now, what happens is we\u2019ve imposed an explicit requirement for the council to receive the views presented to it with an open mind and give those views due consideration when making a decision about fees and levies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EAs the last speaker, I want to look forward with a bit of hope and what will be different as a result of this legislation. What next? We cannot legislate for trust. We cannot legislate for highly productive and functioning relationships with the profession. But I am looking forward to the council following through on its intentions to conduct consultation in the future in a different way. They said they intend to invite the peak bodies and unions to co-design a new consultation process; not just consult about how much those fees should be but actually what is fair and reasonable, determining and establishing a shared understanding of what those functions do actually look like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EThis legislation has established a clear framework to clearly engage effectively with the profession, respectfully and successfully. And, ideally, we end up with a Teaching Council that the profession and the country trusts. That\u2019s something our profession deserves, that\u2019s something our students deserve, and thus I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220631cbf7c5aa4b8eba5da1a82d86ffec\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Education and Training (Teaching Council Fees, Levies, and Costs) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000657\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022611b54a887074f6a917b9b39e6bc7d2b\u0022\u003EOversight of Oranga Tamariki System and Children and Young People\u2019s Commission Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022afb73630898b423880b2eab1f0535197\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000660\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 11 November.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022 data-id=\u00227032c4ec16f14545b6213449cd3a0918\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227032c4ec16f14545b6213449cd3a0918\u0022\u003EDr EMILY HENDERSON (Labour\u2014Whang\u0101rei):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare. I rise to take a quick call on this. I want, first, to acknowledge that social workers have a very difficult job, and Oranga Tamariki social workers all the more difficult. They work with people and wh\u0101nau in extremis. They work with them when they are angry, they are hurt, and they are not functioning. It is difficult work, but it is work where if you make a mistake or a misjudgment, the consequences are extreme, and, unfortunately, we have seen, again and again, that Oranga Tamariki have not been getting it right. This Government is determined to assist to make that system whole, and to create one that is fit for Aotearoa New Zealand into the 21st century.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EIn so doing, we need to address the fundamental question: quis custodiet ipsos custodes\u2014who guards the guardians, of our children, in this case. As someone who has spent time with Oranga Tamariki, making complaints, taking complaints through that process, I can tell you it is, at present, incredibly fraught, incredibly difficult, to get sense out of Oranga Tamariki, because at present, it often feels like no one guards the guardians but themselves, and the people they are guarding are themselves and not our tamariki.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003ESo I am delighted to see that we are now bringing in a system where there will be independent monitoring and evaluation from within the system, where there is no power of the Minister to stop the investigator going where they will, and bringing the information back; an independent complaints process strengthened by the greater role of the Ombudsman; and, finally, a strengthened role for the Office of the Children\u2019s Commissioner, where there will not be just one person but a number to investigate the important roles that affect our children across society. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Well, now there\u2019s going to be someone. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002281be9af7dc3b499887f87fc7e451f15d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281be9af7dc3b499887f87fc7e451f15d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The next call is a split call. I call Joseph Mooney.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u002204935fc8165f48068825d764f1e45cc3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204935fc8165f48068825d764f1e45cc3\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E I arise on behalf of the National Party to speak on the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki and Children and Young People\u2019s Commission Bill. National supports this bill to select committee. National is sensitive to the unfortunate reality that the stresses and pressures that have led to an uptick in family harm, violence, and abuse, and children are sadly more susceptible to ill treatment. National believes that no effort should be spared in protecting the welfare of children. But the focus needs to be very squarely on protecting children, and not expanding the powers of Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThere are some key points that need to be worked through at select committee in terms of the independence of the Children\u2019s Commissioner and in what guise that will continue, or not. It\u2019s important that there is an independent body that is completely focused on the welfare of children and not one that is beholden to the politics of the day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThere are some good things in this bill, having a look through it. There are some cultural competencies that are being referred to. And I note that it\u2019s referring also to article 3 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, and one of those is \u201CTaking due account of the importance of the traditions and cultural values of each people for the protection and harmonious development of the child\u201D, and I note some effort has been made, particularly in respect of M\u0101ori, with clause 92 stating that \u201CAt least half of the board members must have M\u0101ori knowledge; and have experience in, and knowledge of, tikanga M\u0101ori.\u201D And the duties of the board, in clause 96 are to: \u201Cbuild and maintain relationships with iwi, M\u0101ori organisations, organisations representing children\u2019s and young people\u2019s issues, youth-led organisations, community organisations, departments, and other agencies by having a strong focus on the rights, interests, and well-being of M\u0101ori children and young people within the context of their wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi\u201D and also \u201Cpromoting M\u0101ori participation and leadership, and te ao M\u0101ori approaches, in the performance of its functions, as appropriate.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThis bill does represent some progress towards a fully independent watchdog for Oranga Tamariki. Independent oversight is really crucial and it contributes to building transparency. Importantly, it contributes to building public trust and confidence in the system, which is necessary as Oranga Tamariki has certainly gone through something of a crisis of confidence in recent times. There is a need for public confidence to be rebuilt and certainly independent oversight would be valuable in helping build that confidence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EWhere Government has strong statutory powers, such as the power to apply to the Family Court to remove children and young people from their families and to place them with caregivers or in care and protection residences, independent oversight is particularly important for people to feel that the appropriate processes are being followed, that there isn\u2019t Government overreach\u2014particularly reaching into families inappropriately. Certainly, I think all of us have at least been aware of, if not seen, some of the footage, which was quite concerning, previously on some uplifts regarding some families. Having an additional safeguard in terms of independent oversight to help ensure the wellbeing and safety of both the children and their wh\u0101nau, families would certainly be a good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThe Ministry rightly recognises that many public facing organisations have independent monitoring organisations\u2014the Education Review Office, the Health and Disability Commissioner, the Independent Police Conduct Authority and the Ombudsman. There\u2019s certainly a lot of potential for things to go wrong in the fraught area of child protection, which involves a lot of very complex issues in many cases. And just like the police, there really does need to be some independent oversight and that would be a good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ETherefore, National does support this bill to select committee. We will seek to contribute constructive feedback and seek to help improve the bill to make sure it is one that can last the test of time and contribute to that public confidence and the important exercise of the Oranga Tamariki, which is, fundamentally, to ensure the wellbeing and safety of children in our country. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00222502035ec8064a4a85cb8dd84e24c3f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222502035ec8064a4a85cb8dd84e24c3f8\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Speaker, and it\u2019s great to know that there\u2019s some consensus around the House that this is a bill that needs to go to select committee and that we are all placing the interests of our most vulnerable children first and foremost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI echo the words of my colleague Dr Emily Henderson when she noted that this is some of the most difficult work that our professionals with children can do, and that in some cases these are non-functioning families and there\u2019s no perfect option, just least worst options. But, having said that it\u2019s really important that there is a good system of accountability, and when things don\u2019t work out as they should, that they can be examined and we can learn from them. So a good monitoring function to make sure that the work is being done, which is a cornerstone of this bill, is really important, but also that complaints system. And sometimes we see complaints in an entirely negative way, but complaints are also a way where we find out what needs to be fixed and to actually get on and fix it, and also recognising the really important position of the Office of the Children\u2019s Commissioner, which would be extended to recognise the role around young people, not just in representing but also positively advocating for young people. And we\u2019ve seen that with the recently departed Children\u2019s Commissioner who did a great job, Judge Becroft.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThis is a really good bill. I\u2019m hopeful that the select committee will work positively, constructively, and improve it. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00224a97d6a60c024c449177e66fed6fca86\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a97d6a60c024c449177e66fed6fca86\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of National as their member of Parliament for North Shore on the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System and Children and Young People\u2019s Commission Bill, first reading. As we have heard from fellow speakers this evening, National support this bill. We support this bill through the select committee, which is an important process within this Parliament, for this bill to be considered in order to be able to improve this bill considerably through that process. We\u2019ve heard here this evening there are some 5,000 children that are within the care of the system. These are young, vulnerable children. These are children that have significant challenges in their life and their upbringing, and the importance of the State providing that protection for those young individuals\u2014the future of individuals that will make a significant contribution in this country is so very important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo National absolutely support the importance of this bill. We support the fact that there will be independent oversight provided in regards to this. I guess this also is important in terms of, you know, sadly, what we\u2019ve seen in recent news and elements around that is the reality of some of the challenges for these young children across our country. The implications that, for some of them, sadly, happen in terms of the vulnerable positions that they\u2019re put in in terms of their support arrangements and, again, reinforces the importance of an appropriate wellbeing and safety net around our young children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t think there is too much more to say here in regards to this bill. The National Party support it through to select committee and we look forward to participating with other members of this House in a constructive manner around that table to make this legislation as good as it can be. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022 data-id=\u00228ef350118ca8468abaf6c30f7c20b6f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ef350118ca8468abaf6c30f7c20b6f9\u0022\u003ET\u0100MATI COFFEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. This is a very important piece of legislation. For a very long time, the State care system hasn\u2019t been very caring, especially towards M\u0101ori children\u2014in fact, M\u0101ori children have been abused in the system, and for that reason there is a severe lack of trust in our Oranga Tamariki system. But, actually, reforming the system is part of the reason that I want to stand here and give this contribution today, because M\u0101ori need to have faith in our child welfare system\u2014because, as I said before, it hasn\u2019t historically done very well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EWhat I would like to point out is that there has been a group of key M\u0101ori leaders providing the ongoing guidance, direction, and support of this work, known as Te K\u0101hui. They\u2019ve been guided by the Office for M\u0101ori Crown Relations - Te Arawhiti. They\u2019ve also been supported by Te Puni K\u014Dkiri, as well as the many reviews and many opinions of people of Aotearoa who have put forward their thoughts about how we could better create this system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EOne of the best parts of this is that we\u2019re going to be able to separate out some of those key functions of what has previously been left to just Oranga Tamariki to be able to do. Previous speakers have talked about it\u2014the monitoring functions, the complaints and investigations functions, and, obviously, the role of advocacy via the Children\u2019s Commissioner too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EThis is an important piece of legislation. I know that the select committee will hear lots of stories from people that are at the front line doing this work every single day. It\u2019s hard work, it\u2019s gruelling work, but if we get it right, then we have the future to look forward to, which hopefully is a better future than the way that our children in State care have been treated in the past. For that reason, I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022def0f4795b354e7d884c8500ffdced66\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System and Children and Young People\u2019s Commission Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 108\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; New Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 12\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000682\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000683\u0022\u003EThe result corrected after originally being announced Ayes 108, Noes 10 to include Te Paati M\u0101ori\u2019s votes that were subsequently cast.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022e6655623ecc3417cbab68a58ea05cfc6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e6655623ecc3417cbab68a58ea05cfc6\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System and Children and Young People\u2019s Commission Bill be considered by the Social Services and Community Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Social Services and Community Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228fdda189b3fd40518015b9e52f1c58a5\u0022\u003EThree Strikes Legislation Repeal Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022106b4bae91c4492da20035e20534dfd3\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u002265c767b2ac2d4b0c9d8e07ff6c640eab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265c767b2ac2d4b0c9d8e07ff6c640eab\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Three Strikes Legislation Repeal Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef3e6ce132ea466fa8e5c3b29e91754f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022434b9808d8aa4a01a94f1428ac794d65\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Three Strikes Legislation Repeal Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Justice Committee to consider the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003ECan I acknowledge members of the Labour Party here and also those candidates of election 2020 who went out and campaigned strongly on a number of issues, with one of them being some unfinished business that we had from the term of Government from 2017 to 2020. So I do want to acknowledge all the hard work of all my colleagues here in the House for winning a mandate on a strong election platform to make strong changes to respond to the COVID-19 pandemic, but in amongst the promises that we made at the election were some, what I would call, business-as-usual commitments to New Zealanders. Within the justice part of our manifesto was a commitment at the 2020 election to get rid of the three-strikes legislation, as it was known, which was passed in 2010 by the previous National-ACT Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003ENow, there\u2019s going to be some smack talk from the ACT Party tonight about what is going to happen as a result of this change in the legislation. What I want to make sure and very clear to everyone at home is that you can\u2019t believe a word that the ACT Party is going to say about what was going to happen as a result of this legislation, because the judiciary doesn\u2019t like this law, the lawyers don\u2019t like this law, the public don\u2019t like this law\u2014and they gave us that message clearly in 2020\u2014and we have arrived a little over a year into our Government, having made the commitment to change and repeal this piece of Draconian law. We are getting on with the job and doing it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThe smack talk that will come from the ACT Party, and possibly from the National Party as well, is that as a result of the changes, people will be resentenced and let out of prison early. Now, I can absolutely, 100 percent, categorically tell you that that is not the case, because that is not contained in this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI want to send a clear message to those at home saying that the Labour Party and this Labour Government acknowledge that offences were committed. Some of them, or many of them\u2014or, in fact, all of them\u2014are serious offences, and serious sentencing options are still available to the judiciary to deal with those serious offences. The removal of the judicial discretion that judges have when they\u2019re dealing with these serious crimes\u2014which is what this piece of legislation has done since 2010\u2014has meant there have been some perverse outcomes, but we acknowledge that there are victims in this and there will be no revictimisation of those people during this process, because there is no retrospective aspect of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThe principle of people being prosecuted and sentenced under the law as it stood at the time still holds true. That will not change, and under this legislation no one will have their sentences reconsidered. So let\u2019s put that to bed before someone from that side of the House stands up and talks about it too. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThis was an ugly piece of legislation from the outset. I should remind you of some of the history of it. A very good justice Minister in the previous National Government\u2014Simon Power\u2014introduced this bill relatively early in their term of Parliament. Then, lo and behold, Mr Power, who we on this side believe is a very principled man, perhaps had too many principles for the National Party, and all of a sudden, it became the responsibility of the Hon Judith Collins to pass this legislation. I understand there probably was a bit of debate in amongst the National caucus at the time, because they were dragged, kicking and screaming, to keep ACT happy and to make sure that this piece of legislation passed. It\u2019s bad legislation, and we know that because it hasn\u2019t worked. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003ENow, what was the promise of this piece of legislation at the time from the architect of this law, David Garrett? The ghost of David Garrett may still be walking these halls\u2014an identity that no one wants to steal because of his past. But Mr Garrett said that by passing this legislation, we would make our communities safer and we would see the numbers of these serious offences drop. Well, that is not the case. It is not borne out in the evidence in the 10 years since this piece of legislation passed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003ENow, I think there\u2019s also going to be an interesting debate on that side of the House around mandatory minimum sentences as well, because I think I recall hearing a number of the members from the National Party discussing their distaste on mandatory minimums over there. I think I recall that during the debate, so that\u2019s going to be an interesting internal debate\u2014another interesting internal debate\u2014for the National Party to deal with over time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003ESo the promise of this piece of legislation has never been delivered, and I think that deep down in their hearts, the National Party knew that at the time. I think Simon Power knew that at the time, which is why he didn\u2019t see this legislation all the way through the legislative process. I don\u2019t think I have heard of another instance where a Minister has introduced a bill and then, still in that portfolio, has had that piece of legislation yanked from him, or maybe he requested not to have it with him in that portfolio, and seen it offered up to be taken through the House by another person in another portfolio. It went from justice to corrections, so there must have been some very bizarre and interesting conversations around the Cabinet table when this piece of legislation was going through in 2010 and 2011. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThere is a very serious side to this debate. As I have mentioned before, there are victims of serious crimes here, and I want to reiterate, before the ACT Party stands up and misinterprets or spreads disinformation about this piece of legislation, that there is no retrospectivity within this piece of legislation. So the press release that they put out before the announcement was made last Thursday again jumped the gun, and they were wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EThe Labour Party and the Labour Government are very aware of the pain that the victims have been through, and I want to reiterate that this piece of legislation is in no way offering resentencing options for the offenders who have already been dealt with under a first, second, or third strike. So I want to make sure that that is made very clear. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EWe want the select committee to have a good look at this, and I acknowledge the chair of the select committee, Ginny Andersen, to my left. It is a select committee that has been extremely busy. We know there will be debate on both sides of the ledger about how we have constructed this, but we believe that we have got the balance right\u2014we\u2019ve got the balance right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EAs I\u2019ve said, I think the legislative statement and the speech that I\u2019ve given today have pretty much summed up the position of the Government, and I look forward to not only the contributions from the ACT Party\u2014and, again, I give a warning to those who might be watching to take that with a rather large dose of salt\u2014and also, potentially, those from the National Party as well. This was a bad piece of legislation when it was introduced. I think the National Party and the National Government knew that at the time. That\u2019s why it had an ugly passage through its process through this House. They were dragged, kicking and screaming, to pass this so that the ACT members could have something to wave as a part of their coalition arrangement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003EI look forward to the submissions at the select committee, but I also look forward to making sure that this piece of legislation\u2014which was bad legislation when it was introduced and it\u2019s bad legislation now\u2014is repealed, and we can get on with making sure that judges are the ones who have a discretion and we take a smarter approach to law and sentencing in this country. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022 data-id=\u0022833e71576ede436cbf6b800d8af7af28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022833e71576ede436cbf6b800d8af7af28\u0022\u003EHon SIMON BRIDGES (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E National opposes this repeal bill, the Three Strikes Legislation Repeal Bill. And I want to say to the member opposite, the Hon Kris Faafoi: at a time of record violence, at a time of record gun crime under the Labour Party, at a time when gangs are creating record havoc and misery around this country\u2014more victimisation than we\u2019ve ever seen in this country\u2014is it really the time to go soft on crime? I doubt it. Now\u2019s not the time for Labour to go soft on crime, Kris Faafoi. You see, if everything was hunky-dory here and we had a situation where crime was going down, our prisons had empty rooms because the Government was doing such a good job in this area, well, that possibly would be an argument to say, \u201CYou know what, no we don\u2019t actually need to have this sort of law to deter. There\u2019s less violence, there\u2019s less gun crime, there\u2019s less gangs and so on.\u201D, but that\u2019s not the case. We\u2019ve got certainly decade-high violent crime in this country, and now\u2019s not the time for Labour to go soft on crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EThe second point I want to make is that that party over there, on COVID and everything else\u2014although they haven\u2019t actually followed it\u2014tries to pretend they\u2019re science-based, they\u2019re evidence-based, they do everything according to what the so-called experts say, yet in this case, this law, the three-strikes law on the books, on the evidence, works. It makes the public safer and it deters violence and gun crime. And before I get into what the New Zealand evidence says, it\u2019s right to ask that party to back up its position on this bill\u2014that is the Labour Party in Government\u2019s position on this bill. And to go soft on crime like they have, what reviews, what evaluations, what evidence did Labour collect or commission in the preparation of this bill? Can you hear the cicadas chirping? I can. They commissioned none. They collected none. They did not get a single report, a single piece of commissioned evidence from a university or anywhere else from New Zealand on the necessity for this law and how it was working. And by the way, while I\u2019m mentioning that, how many members of the public, let alone victims of crime and organisations that work for victims did this Government ask or consult in putting this bill together? None.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EYou see, the only study, I think, was at the backend of the National Government, done by the Ministry of Justice. It shows quite clearly, yep, there was no change in offending levels from people before the bill through to first strikes, once the law was in place; there wasn\u2019t a change in the level of offending. But when it came to second strikes at the time of the commission of this report\u2014there weren\u2019t any third strike offenders, I don\u2019t think, at that time\u2014actually, the strike offenders and their offences decreased\u2014they decreased. And that\u2019s because\u2014it\u2019s not rocket science\u2014the more individuals are warned, the more they said to themselves, I would think, \u201CThis isn\u2019t smart. I don\u2019t want to keep offending.\u201D, and they as individuals were deterred, resulting in their cases in fewer victims of crime. The bill, on the only report commissioned by any Government, the Ministry of Justice, deterred criminals. And more fundamentally than that, what we also know is that\u2014and wait for it\u2014there is an average of 74 previous convictions per strike offender. I just want the members of the public back home to hear that: 74 convictions is what the average three-strikes offender has, right? We\u2019re not talking tiddlywinks here. We\u2019re not talking theft of a Mars bar, as some on the other side may have you say. With that going on, when they\u2019re in prison for a strike, second or third, the public is safer for longer, there are fewer victims in our communities throughout New Zealand. That legislation serves as both general and specific deterrence of criminals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EWhat\u2019s the best that Labour can say about this law? Well, I think it\u2019s in the regulatory impact statement. They say about the three-strikes law that it results in \u201Cexcessive and disproportionate punishment by preventing sentencing judges from taking the circumstances of the offenders and offending into account.\u201D And I want to go through that. Firstly, \u201Cexcessive and disproportionate\u201D, they say. Rubbish. They may want to, as they have in so many of the laws that have come through the justice department here in New Zealand, import US-style culture wars to this country, but it is a load of rubbish. There is not a single case that they can point to, that any academic can point to, that anyone in the judiciary can point to where someone\u2019s been sentenced for theft of a piece of pizza for 50 years in jail or the like. It simply hasn\u2019t happened in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EAnd the cases that they refer to and that are in the regulatory impact statement and the various other documents that the Labour Party refers to, I just urge any reasonable New Zealander who\u2019s worried about this to go and check out\u2014you\u2019ll find it, I think, online\u2014the summary of facts of those cases. They were serious offences by serious offenders with long histories. And, yes, the sentences under the three strikes regime were firm, but they were not excessive or disproportionate in my view, and, I say, actually, in reasonable New Zealanders\u2019 views in the slightest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EThe second bit\u2014that \u201Cexcessive and disproportionate punishment by preventing sentencing judges from taking the circumstances of the offenders and offending into account.\u201D, is to me the real reason the Labour Party\u2019s against this. You see, this is about the judiciary and a judiciary-pleasing Government that wants judges to decide, not this Parliament. This is actually a constitutional argument. I\u2019m not going to deliver a treatise on that here, but there is a growing trend from our judiciary in New Zealand seeking to push back against Parliament and assert interpretations that aren\u2019t conventional on parliamentary statutes and powers for themselves that they have never had. In relation to sentencing of criminal justice, courts increasingly want to assert that a complete judicial discretion belongs and exists for them. Well, they are wrong. There is no such principle. Parliament and its sovereignty determines sentencing policy, as well as a raft of other things, not the judiciary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s other criticisms that the other side makes in the various documents on this bill. Three strikes, they say, disproportionately affects M\u0101ori. Well, that ignores that the victims of the three-strikes offending are also disproportionately M\u0101ori. And on this side of the House, we stand up for M\u0101ori victims of crime and victims of crime generally over offenders every single day of the week. And I say to the members on the other side who are M\u0101ori, \u201CYou know what, your brothers, your sisters, your wh\u0101nau are victims, and this law would have done something about that.\u201D This law that shouldn\u2019t be repealed did something about that, not the soft-on-crime approach from the Labour Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003EThe final thing they say is, \u201CWell, this bill, it offends against the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act.\u201D, as if the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act is some sort of religion we have to follow with the Pope being \u201CSaint Geoffrey Palmer II\u201D. \u201CIt\u2019s a religion. We have to follow it. We just can\u2019t ever do anything. Parliament can never pass a law if there\u2019s a New Zealand Bill of Rights Act issue in it.\u201D Here\u2019s the problem with that: the Labour Party is exceptionally venal and acts exceptionally conveniently when it comes to that argument, because right now at the Justice Committee we\u2019ve got a hate speech law, we\u2019ve got a conversion practices law, we\u2019ve got several other laws that Kris Faafoi\u2019s come to this House on and spoken on that grossly offend the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. It\u2019s all too convenient to come down here and give us that sort of conversation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003ENow\u2019s not the time for Labour to go soft on crime. Three strikes has worked for individuals in generally deterring them and keeping New Zealanders safer. Unlike Labour, we back Parliament, not judicial activism that marches onwards from our courts. And here we don\u2019t want more violence and more gun crime. We\u2019re on the side of communities around New Zealand, not offenders. We oppose this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00225127428f198a4e3d91f70cbec836a386\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225127428f198a4e3d91f70cbec836a386\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member\u2019s time is up. The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022709774c369ef4fc18b68f073494d5517\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022709774c369ef4fc18b68f073494d5517\u0022\u003EGINNY ANDERSEN (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E The three-strikes law is an anomaly in New Zealand law and it\u2019s for one main reason. It\u2019s because it severely restricts judicial discretion. That\u2019s number one. It provides fixed sentences that give no ability for a judge to take into account the seriousness of the offending or even the circumstances of the offender. Sometimes I do wonder whether the National Party would like to just do away with judges altogether and come up with a script and corresponding years to be served because that would work better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe fact is that this kind of blanket mandated sentencing does disproportionately affect M\u0101ori. We know that for a fact, because we see that 81 percent\u2014and we\u2019ve even had comments in terms of that. The Court of Appeal and the Supreme Court have found that sentences imposed under this regime contravene the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act with M\u0101ori having an 81 percent number for those who receive the three strikes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EBut I would actually like to speak from inside. When I was working in Government, when this legislation came into force\u2014and the reality was that it wasn\u2019t a National Party idea and there was no preparation for this in any manifesto or policy, because it was an ACT promise that then had to be delivered upon in a hurry for quick political points. That was apparent when there was no computer system able to actually deal with the three-strikes system. And so what happened was, in a quick hurry, as a way of monitoring that, we had to develop a stamp. It had \u201CStriker\u201D on it. So what would happen when a file came before a court room in a short term was that the judge at sentencing had to read out a certain statement in order for one strike to be applied. Because there was no one computer system, I had the job of reading through three different databases, finding out when there was a striker, finding the court, ringing up the court, letting them know they had a striker in the cells and the fact that that had to be applied.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe trick was that that didn\u2019t work over the whole of New Zealand. So there was a running tally that the Minister at the time, Judith Collins, was required to hear, of how many strikes had been missed in any given week. People had to draw straws\u2014now much like I\u2019m sure the National caucus does in giving other news about polls\u2014on who was going to tell the Minister about how many strikes had been missed that week. And the reality was the system was not ready\u2014it was not ready for being able to cope with this change and it has never been ready. That is in relation to the fact that it does not address the underlying causes of crime. That is still true now. So I\u2019m quite happy at this moment to see this bill repealed, because it is bad legislation, as the Minister has already said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI won\u2019t speak too long, because I\u2019d like to finish on what the advice was from the Ministry of Justice at the time this Act, the Sentencing and Parole Reform Act, came about. What the Ministry of Justice advised the Government of the time was that proposals will add substantial and direct costs to the justice system without creating any significant improved outcomes in terms of reducing the drivers of crime, improving social outcomes, or reducing reoffending and victimisation. That is exactly what has played out over time and that is exactly why this Government will be repealing this poor legislation. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u002250b08e43725442f79dda53d5e55977e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250b08e43725442f79dda53d5e55977e4\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Whangapar\u0101oa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s my pleasure to take a call on this, the Three Strikes Legislation Repeal Bill. As my colleague and friend, the Hon Simon Bridges, said, we oppose this bill. And, I have to say, I would hope that one of the Government speakers will get up and actually use the full 10 minutes to outline clearly why they\u2019re repealing this legislation. I listened very carefully to Ginny Andersen, the chair of the Justice Committee\u2014and I acknowledge her past experience and role around policy and with the police\u2014but she didn\u2019t outline it for me. The only real reason I could hear that she gave for why this Government is repealing the legislation is that they don\u2019t like the fact that our Parliament has legislated and has asked the judiciary to apply a much stronger sentence for recidivist offenders, serious recidivist offenders. That\u2019s the only reason I can see put up tonight for repealing the legislation. That is not a reason; in fact, quite the opposite.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI just want to support the comments that Simon Bridges made. Right now in this country, we\u2019ve probably got the worst situation that I have seen, certainly in my lifetime, of a proliferation of gang numbers, serious violent gang members that are well resourced and highly organised that now are regularly carrying high-powered firearms and using them. In the last three days in Auckland there\u2019s been three serious firearm incidents. My greatest fear is we lost Matthew Hunt last year and, of course, we\u2019re very lucky that Constable David Goldfinch wasn\u2019t killed, as well, in broad daylight, on the streets of West Auckland with a gang banger that had a high-powered AK-47 type military-style firearm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown has been doing an outstanding job in supporting the police and trying to hold the Government to account and make them understand just how serious the situation out there is, how much more at risk members of our community are and, actually, how much support our police need in trying to deal with a gang situation that has rapidly escalated and got out of control. But I can tell you now, in the last three or four years of trying to hold this Government to account, normally what we get is a whole lot of barracking from the other side, we get jokes, we get told that somehow being tough on crime and taking community safety seriously is something to be scoffed at and laughed at by the Government. But, actually, get your heads around this: we believe that communities deserve to be safe. We actually believe that law-abiding Kiwis should have the freedom to be able to move around in our country without the fear of being tied up in some type of gang violence, being intimidated, having their property stolen\u2014we believe in that. That\u2019s fundamentally a core part of our DNA. The reason why we supported the bill from the ACT Party is because it\u2019s a good bill, and, actually, it was in response to some fairly horrific violent crime that occurred in our country. Christie Marceau\u2014can anyone remember Christie Marceau? That was horrific. I just want to acknowledge her parents, and especially her mum, that went through a living hell. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EActually, as a country, we decided\u2014and, actually, if you go back and have a look at the polling that was done, in terms of the support for the three-strikes legislation when it was brought into the House, National Party voters were 78 percent in support of this bill. You\u2019d expect that, because, fundamentally, National Party voters and members take community safety extremely seriously. But then you look at Labour\u2014you\u2019d expect Labour to poll very low, wouldn\u2019t you? When you hear the rhetoric on that side of the House, when you hear their position, you\u2019d actually expect them to be polling very low; I\u2019d say in the 20s, maybe down in the teens, even. Do you know what Labour Party supporters thought of this bill when it was brought to the House by the ACT Party? Sixty-three percent of Labour voters supported it\u201463 percent of Labour voters supported that bill. And this one will really blow you away, because I would have thought the Greens maybe scrape up, on a good day, 5 percent\u2014maybe 5 or 6 percent support. Fortyeight\u00A0percent of Green voters supported the three-strikes legislation to come into this House and be passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve actually had this debate in the House before. I had this debate when I was justice spokesperson and Andrew Little was Minister of Justice, and he tried to get this repealed through the House. That was when they were in coalition Government with New Zealand First.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022122548fc8735444398024ea405d6ce2d\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Bit of common sense there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b279c31797d1480db40be56eea9e2823\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, there was a bit of common sense applied, and probably through Darroch Ball, who\u2019s now one of the joint CEOs of the Sensible Sentencing Trust. He could see what was going on. He took a stand. Good on him, and actually New Zealand First said they would not support Labour, and, therefore, they didn\u2019t have the votes, and, therefore, the bill was thrown out of the House. The right thing to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227627c11ca0684c3ba3cfa19adae3f866\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: I mean, to be fair, you and I pressured them in to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c12bb93a942246b89d622219ce5cf8a0\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s true\u2014that\u2019s true. But now it\u2019s back in the House, they have a majority, and they\u2019re going to force it through. The worst thing about this is that they\u2019re going get away with it, to a certain extent because we\u2019re in COVID. Because of their poor response to that, the whole country is focused on COVID, right? So it\u2019s like, look at the squirrel over there. It\u2019s a complete distraction. Sadly, this is going to go through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThe other point that I just want to raise very quickly is\u2014and Simon Bridges touched on this\u2014that, unfortunately in this country, sadly, M\u0101ori are overrepresented inside our criminal justice system, right? We all recognise that as a problem and an issue that we have to be serious about and address. You cannot address it by trying to legislate your way out of it by removing laws. Because where are we going to go to next? We\u2019ll repeal this law, then let\u2019s get the Crimes Act out, and let\u2019s start going through it. Let\u2019s go and say, \u201COK, look, young M\u0101ori offenders, there\u2019s lots of theft ex cars and serious assaults. Let\u2019s just legislate that away.\u201D Let\u2019s just legislate it away. Because then you\u2019re not going to have the offending. Then you\u2019re not going to have them in front of the courts. It\u2019s ridiculous\u2014it\u2019s ridiculous. You\u2019re trying to legislate away a problem in this House that you cannot do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EYou need to take a social investment approach to it. You need to get into people\u2019s lives much earlier. I saw this working on the East Coast of New Zealand. I spent 10 years policing on the East Coast of New Zealand from Ruat\u014Dria down to Wairoa. If you want to have a front-row seat into the social issues that this country faces and continues to face, go and try and work on the East Coast of New Zealand; it\u2019s tough. It\u2019s a tough area. I realised very, very quickly as a young policeman\u2014I didn\u2019t know what social investment really meant then. But one day the light bulb came on when I\u2019d been called to a job where a young guy had broken into a car. He was prospecting for the Mongrel Mob there, and I tracked him with the dog, we caught him, we took him back to the police station. I had him in the charge room, and we had a charge sheet there we had to fill out, I said, \u201CWhat\u2019s your occupation?\u201D\u2014he was only 17. I said, \u201CWhat\u2019s your occupation?\u201D He said, \u201CUnemployed.\u201D I said, \u201CBut that\u2019s not an occupation.\u201D I said, \u201CYou know, what do you do for a job?\u201D, and he said, \u201CNo, that\u2019s my job: unemployed.\u201D He said, \u201CThat\u2019s what my dad does as well.\u201D His dad was a patched up member of the Mongrel Mob. The light bulb went on right there and then, and I realised that this young guy who should\u2019ve been full of aspiration and should\u2019ve had the education and the support and the mentoring to allow him to take advantage of all the incredible opportunities that exist in this country was instead on a pathway into the criminal justice system, because that\u2019s the environment that he\u2019d been born into. If you want to change the system, if you want to stop young M\u0101ori coming into our criminal justice system, we have to be committed to a social investment model, where we invest in their lives much earlier\u2014not come into this House with a piece of legislation, repeal it, and throw it out because you think that\u2019s going to deal with the problem. It\u2019s not going to deal with the problem. All it\u2019s going to do is it\u2019s going to put more serious offenders back out on the street and put the community and the public at risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EWhen you say that this legislation didn\u2019t work, get up and talk to the numbers. Someone on that side of the House, get up and talk to the numbers for me. Because I\u2019m looking at them right here. The study that the Ministry of Justice went through in 2018 on the effectiveness of the three-strikes law showed that 10,433 offences went up for first strikes, so that\u2019s about 10,000 first strikes, 338 second strikes. Do the maths in terms of the reduction. Let\u2019s go to third strikes: six. So if someone on that side of the House stood up and said to me there were 10,433 first strikes and there were 10,400 third strikes, then I would agree with you, and I\u2019d say that the legislation wasn\u2019t working. But it\u2019s not the case; it\u2019s very clear this legislation is working.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s very clear what the agenda is on the other side of the House, and it is a shame. I\u2019m sorry to my ACT colleagues because this was a very good piece of legislation that was campaigned on, and we were pleased to support, and we continue to support it. I think it\u2019s a serious indictment on this Government that there\u2019s not even a Government speaker that can stand up and actually speak to this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221f3237a075a34d0ab4b3af4f730edf41\u0022\u003EVoting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aa420f38e3b541a69f501aabcbc6b865\u0022\u003ECorrection\u2014Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System and Children and Young People\u2019s Commission Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022 data-id=\u0022c20166ffd24d4599b797928f835aa6f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c20166ffd24d4599b797928f835aa6f2\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I want to apologise to the House. I am asking permission to correct an earlier vote for Te Paati M\u0101ori. I misread the information that was given to me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022645c990313fd43498dc69ef560976ab1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022645c990313fd43498dc69ef560976ab1\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to Te Paati M\u0101ori casting their vote on the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System and Children and Young People\u2019s Commission Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022 data-id=\u0022faa9d5b96f5d449e9e85e0d49a90b6f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022faa9d5b96f5d449e9e85e0d49a90b6f7\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E My apologies\u2014yes, I seek leave to cast a party vote on behalf of Te Paati M\u0101ori on the first reading of the oversight of Oranga Tamariki System and Children and Young People\u2019s Commission Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022370fc96381004fd08f95ccd97b6a621a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022370fc96381004fd08f95ccd97b6a621a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection? There is no objection. Can I ask the Clerk to call for the party vote of Te Paati M\u0101ori on that bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022cdcabd0f52634208a2086bbcd57399b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cdcabd0f52634208a2086bbcd57399b1\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: Te Paati M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022 data-id=\u00225e69dea848894c9294568222554702e8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e69dea848894c9294568222554702e8\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E Two votes opposed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6ffccb56f18471e91ef8ab0b550f99f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6ffccb56f18471e91ef8ab0b550f99f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The Ayes are 108, the Noes are 12. The Clerk will correct the vote. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fb561d6f930a43f1ac19d8800ebef0e9\u0022\u003EThree Strikes Legislation Repeal Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222c0b473414bd497090eb41975a59c02c\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000746\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae3caf920e93424197442d72037ea620\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae3caf920e93424197442d72037ea620\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker, for the opportunity to take a call in relation to this bill. I think the Minister said it the best when he said that the three-strikes legislation is bad legislation that hasn\u2019t worked. But it\u2019s not the first time I\u2019ve heard those words over the last week. We have been out speaking to people and I\u2019ve been speaking to people on the front line of our justice service. Last week I spoke to a lawyer who works in the criminal court and what she said to me was that both prosecutors and defence lawyers are sighing with relief. They know this law has not worked. This is bad legislation that hasn\u2019t worked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E The three-strikes law has bound the hands of judges and limited their ability to respond. We\u2019ve heard comments from the judiciary about the impact of the law and some talk in some cases of having to exercise their decision-making authority in a way that was manifestly inconsistent with their own judgment and in a way that puts them also at odds with section 8, the principles, of the Sentencing Act. Principles matter. Constitutional principles matter. Our entrenched legislation matters\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022badb0a39-849c-462a-b32f-77fc017c9fc2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022069db9cc5e854bf682df939a6ee9b9e3\u0022\u003EHon Simon Bridges\u003C/span\u003E: Parliamentary sovereignty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efa02493daac4232b924f285287243d1\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and I\u2019m troubled by the fact that my colleagues so quickly dismisses those principles, but, Mr Bridges, you do you. It\u2019d be easy to adopt the mechanical system that assumed all repeat offenders are exactly the same, and this three-strikes baseball analogy creates the illusion that complex issues can be addressed on a conveyor belt. Judges and practitioners know that\u2019s simply not true. They know that three strikes creates a pipeline of bias and of discrimination. They know it doesn\u2019t keep us safe in the short term when an individual on two strikes resists arrest. They know that it doesn\u2019t keep us safe in the mid to long term where individuals receive inappropriately suited penalties that mean they\u2019re essentially unseen. Lawyers, both defence and prosecution know it doesn\u2019t work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EIn addition to preventing judges from exercising their best judgment, it also adds cost to our justice system, as I\u2019m told by the lawyers who\u2019re working on the front line, because people who are guilty of offences are motivated to plead not guilty by virtue of fighting another strike on their record. Those who work on the front line of our justice system deserve to be able to respond not just to the issues in front of them but to the people in front of them. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022 data-id=\u00222193c996fec24dd881ac682653cb6a1d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222193c996fec24dd881ac682653cb6a1d\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON (Minister for the Prevention of Family and Sexual Violence):\u003C/span\u003E We welcome\u2014the Green Party\u2014this long, long overdue repeal of the perverse and archaic and completely ineffective three-strikes law. We hope that it also signals a move to a more transformative system of justice and reform.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003ENow, I just want to start by making it very, very clear: every week, every week, it is my privilege and responsibility as Minister for the Prevention of Family and Sexual Violence to be meeting with, engaging with, learning from, and listening to victims of crime and victim advocates of crime and NGOs and civil society groups who are advocates for a reform and transformation to a justice system that truly makes our communities safe. This was not what they were asking for\u2014this three-strikes law was not what they knew was going to make them safe and healthy and well. So the repeal of this legislation is absolutely in line with the very conversations that I have every week, directly, with victims and survivors of some of the most heinous, heinous, harm and hurt that we can ever imagine in this House. So let me firstly make that very, very clear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EWhat I also want to make very clear is there is a difference between accountability and ineffective punitive approaches that do not even make the community safe. All our victims want and deserve accountability. All of our victims and survivors of serious crime know that a community-strengthening approach that addresses the drivers of offending is what will make our communities safer for everyone. What I did not hear, as I was traveling around the country and attending hui to pull together a strategy to eliminate violence, was a call for this type of ineffective, absolutely not-led-by-evidence approach to crime. So I am very pleased to finally\u2014and it was also a very hard push for the Greens, especially in the last term, when it was blocked by New Zealand First\u2014see this step towards a more robust and transformative justice system that will actually make our communities safer. And I\u2019m pleased to have the deep insight of victims and survivors of crime to inform my stand here tonight in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003ENow, I also want to pick up on the constitutional debate and the judicial debate that has also been happening here in the House. It was really interesting to hear the previous National Party speaker, the Hon Mark Mitchell, referring to numbers that indicated that not many third-strike convictions were actually happening. Do you want to know why? Because judges have had to weasel their way around this perverse, stupid piece of legislation to uphold proper sentencing approaches and principles. The Supreme Court has had to intervene on judicial approaches because of this idiotic legislation, which still doesn\u2019t make victims and survivors and their communities safer. So this unnecessary, unsafe, ineffective legislation also has caused the judiciary to have to do all sorts of somersaults to try and respond to bad legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003ESo, yeah, we\u2019ve had some numbers raised here in this House, numbers which continue to support why it\u2019s absolutely essential to repeal this piece of law. Time and time again, the evidence has been absolutely solid that it has not\u2014this legislation, the evidence is out the door, round the back, around the block quite a few times, and back into this House again. That\u2019s how long the evidence is to point to the fact that it has not made our communities any safer at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003ESo I cannot wait to hear the Opposition members, National and ACT members, stand up and celebrate when I announce, before the end of the year, a national strategy to eliminate family violence and sexual violence and a transformative approach to justice and to strengthening our communities. I can\u2019t wait to see those members, who are feigning their concern on the floor of this House tonight, pretending to care about making communities safer\u2014I can\u2019t wait to see them putting out the press releases supporting this work, this work that has been led by victims and survivors and advocates of community safety. If they want to repeal this law in the name of safety, I cannot wait to see them supporting more transformative approaches to rehabilitation, to proper accountability and alternative forms of true and enduring justice, especially for victims and survivors of heinous violent crimes. I can\u2019t wait to see them helping to advocate for mental health support, for wellbeing and housing and income supports to those on the lowest incomes, to those missing out the most, to engaging with people who use harm\u2014which is also an absolute approach to the drivers of offences\u2014instead of using political poll-driven data to drive their policies. Well, that hasn\u2019t proven to be a good tactic, has it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EHow about instead they refer to robust evidence on crime, robust evidence on safety? How about they listen to victims\u2019 advocates, to victims and survivors groups, and actually understand what is really needed for truly strengthening communities? I am pleased to support this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed7e7372b4fa4944b8f60b423d4547e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed7e7372b4fa4944b8f60b423d4547e6\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: This debate is interrupted and is set down for resumption next sitting day. The House stands adjourned until 2 p.m. tomorrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202111162d186ca2ab67440abdbf11e3fcef2de5000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 10.02 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"