"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a2874e8d4e3a47b8980b9435d41f0bbf\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 10 MAY 2022\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022958bf70a1e834b0583be8e8174cc4bd4\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 10 MAY 2022\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227e2f44d247c346d3903b74a19d31fde8\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223f07e9ede26449e7b611f558b8b75794\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae68f755cd274373a4c981c5d9e274de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae68f755cd274373a4c981c5d9e274de\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, this week is both New Zealand Sign Language Week and Rotuman Language Week, and for the second reason, I\u2019ve asked Ingrid Leary to say the prayer today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022700f8a046b774357893b302dc1a994e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022700f8a046b774357893b302dc1a994e7\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Gagaj \u2018\u1E00itu, \u2018\u1E01mis \u2018u\u1E01\u2018u\u1E01\u2018\u1E01kia \u2018\u00E4e \u2018e reko \u1E01lalum \u2018atakoa ne \u2018\u1E01mis p\u014D \u2018e \u2018otomis m\u1E01uri. \u2018\u1E00mis \u2018u\u1E01\u2018u\u1E01\u2018\u1E01kia \u2018\u00E4e \u2018e reko m\u00E5\u00FCr \u2018on S\u1E01u H\u00E5n ta Elisapeti ma far la \u2018\u00E4e la mu\u1E01\u2018\u1E01kia \u2018otomis h\u1E01if\u00E4egaga \u2018e ter\u1E01ni te \u2018i. La p\u014D la \u2018\u1E01mis la a\u2019sokoa \u2018amn\u00E5k t\u016Bt\u016B ne R\u012B T\u1E01un\u00E5\u2018 te\u2018is \u2018e \u2018ou poto ma \u2018inea, \u2018e h\u1E01i\u00E4f\u2018\u1E01kiga, h\u1E01ihanisiga ma hu\u1E01g v\u1E01iv\u1E01i se \u2018on lelei ne hanue te\u2018is Niu Sir\u1E01gi. \u2018Emen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E[Lord God, we thank you because of all the blessings that we receive in our lives. We thank you for the life of Queen Elizabeth and ask that you guide our discussions today. So that we may carry out the purposes of this House of meeting through your wisdom and knowledge, in mutual respect, mutual care and humility for the betterment of this nation New Zealand. Amen.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228ec1d1a191574a549b7db7230f5520cb\u0022\u003EAppointments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022847a215759374f22824f054e5703b8b9\u0022\u003EClerk of the House of Representatives\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022edfcde4ca9b243c8a7ad63a71f007c0c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022edfcde4ca9b243c8a7ad63a71f007c0c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, I am very pleased to announce that David Wilson has been reappointed as Clerk of the House for a further term of seven years, commencing on 6\u00A0July 2022. [Applause] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222b26cd1cc2e24275a56a0bcb5908935c\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227b65d906db5148d6a6796c86dc65b45c\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002295c1761bf70b40838bc30054fc17bf27\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002295c1761bf70b40838bc30054fc17bf27\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No bills have been introduced. Petitions have been delivered to the Clerk for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf4ac73cd3a347ddbe756c494b6c3f61\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf4ac73cd3a347ddbe756c494b6c3f61\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EPetition of Juliana Carvalho, requesting that the House urge the Associate Minister of Immigration to exempt Ignacia Vasquez from the acceptable standards of health policy\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Iwi Strand, requesting that the House urge the Government to grant 2021 resident visas to migrants who lived in New Zealand for more than three years before getting stuck due to the COVID-19 border closure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6af7bdd1b104823acb86c9e25cb5f5d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6af7bdd1b104823acb86c9e25cb5f5d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those petitions stand referred to the Petitions Committee. Ministers have delivered papers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022fcecb2004c524ec48ea59f6e1e870c9d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fcecb2004c524ec48ea59f6e1e870c9d\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReport of the proceedings and operation of the Local Government Commission for the year ended 30 June 2021\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EGovernment responses to the interim report of the Justice Committee on its inquiry into the 2020 general election and referendums and on the report of the Petitions Committee on the petition of Trade Aid and World Vision New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00222fe721fd74414b8aaee22af994dec028\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222fe721fd74414b8aaee22af994dec028\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Now, those papers are published under the authority of the House. Select committee reports have been delivered for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u002207f0cf6c726f4494975cc6d083be1e85\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207f0cf6c726f4494975cc6d083be1e85\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReport of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee on the petition of Katherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Environment Committee on the petition of Laurance Paterson ONZM and the petition of Steve Abel on behalf of Greenpeace\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Governance and Administration Committee on the briefing on long-term insights briefings, the Data and Statistics Bill, and the report of the Controller and Auditor-General, Building a stronger public accountability system for New Zealanders\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Justice Committee on the petition of Wendy Baker\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Petitions Committee on the petitions of Lucy Mclean and the petition of Margaret Brough\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Regulations Review Committee on the complaint about clause 3.38 of the National Policy Statement on Urban Development 2020.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00221c01ad2fd637481891e3581dd798990a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c01ad2fd637481891e3581dd798990a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is set down for second reading. The reports of the Controller and Auditor-General of the Regulations Review Committee and the briefing is set down for consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002287ceb810f4524d249c81b59e4044771a\u0022\u003ESpeaker\u2019s Statements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224eb0099eb3fc4842afbfa62d04df057c\u0022\u003EChamber, Lobbies, and Galleries\u2014Members, Mask Exemption\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022a680344741b44ab19a8237bba4bb304c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a680344741b44ab19a8237bba4bb304c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, I wish to advise the House that I have granted an exemption from wearing a mask to one member, after considerable consideration. I would prefer, therefore, that members do not draw my attention to any member not wearing a mask. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022224da6224d4844bbbf8ee0e2cefda34b\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228a3acd70a0444898845232745599ac95\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223273793e72834f37bac904f6db21c669\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u002291b864264f4c4eb99c1e7e541ceeebe4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291b864264f4c4eb99c1e7e541ceeebe4\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER LUXON (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all of her Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u0022bac43fddeaba4d5c8883c6e34f8d5df9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bac43fddeaba4d5c8883c6e34f8d5df9\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister) (remote):\u003C/span\u003E Yes\u2014and particularly this Government\u2019s swift action to secure our economic recovery in response to the COVID-19 pandemic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f21215844b9a48e296fe08eb84cb906e\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Does she accept that record inflation is pushing more people into higher tax brackets even though their real incomes aren\u2019t increasing; and if so, will she address this at the Budget?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fbdf550ae904ce4af298c0ef428b239\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Obviously, as a Government we have acknowledged the impact that inflation is having on the cost of living. Of course, we\u2019ve canvassed in this House, many times before, the global reasons why we are seeing that increase in inflation in New Zealand. The Government has responded by taking targeted action. The 1 April changes mean that 60 percent of families have seen an increase in their family tax credit. On 1 May, the winter energy payment is also acting as cushion for superannuitants and those on Government support. We have repeatedly said, though, it\u2019s not our intention\u2014as it has been the National Party\u2019s\u2014to have a response that includes tax cuts for those on top tax brackets, including those on incomes over $180,000, because we\u2019ve wanted to target our support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9731c16d77944db8279db6e5546f971\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Will there be any tax relief in the Budget for middle-income households?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229053ab33815646a89b16464a1ea4d0b6\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Obviously, I\u2019m not going to speak to the specifics of the Budget. But the member, in seeing our response as a Government, will already have seen that we have moved proactively with the changes that we made on 1 April to cushion the impacts of inflation on households. Not only did it include the family tax credit increase, it\u2019s also included orphan benefit support, increases in main benefit rates, and increases in the minimum wage. So you\u2019ve already seen us be very proactive in this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c96735133144db09bad850a6db85bff\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister stand by her Government\u2019s action of requiring household contacts of COVID cases to isolate for seven days, even if they themselves test negative for every one of those days, and does she accept that might have an impact by disrupting supply chains and putting more pressure on the cost of living crisis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ee86a4cce364140800b17f5cf15d3ee\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Where there is an impact on critical services, obviously, we\u2019ve had the ability through, for instance, things like the return to work scheme to enable that. But the reason we have the requirement over isolation for household contacts is just the prevalence and the high level of incidents where those contacts do translate into COVID-19 cases. I know the member will wish well all those who may be isolating in those circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecb1c5f96f23400c94b1384409e36dee\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Why wouldn\u2019t New Zealand follow Singapore and have a simple, workable, and sensible isolation policy that after 72 hours if you\u2019ve tested negative you can go back to work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d68ff20c24b346e986b99549d1e61797\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: For certain industries, we\u2019ve had a policy which has allowed people to return to work with daily rapid antigen tests\u2014so we have had the ability in those critical areas for that to occur. But I\u2019m not sure the member would necessarily promote that we mirror every part of Singapore\u2019s regime. Until recently, of course, they were still limiting gatherings for individuals in private households to 10. Every country has had their own approach; ours has been very heavily based on the evidence. We still know the area of greatest transmission is in households where there are COVID-19 cases\u2014unfortunately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b63ec722e2a3493485b369916234aed9\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Does she believe middle-income households struggling with the cost of living crisis deserve tax relief; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272e8e0297179443c8991ad8ba4e3fbb3\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Again, our focus as a Government has been on using those tools that we have to be targeted, and it\u2019s not just in this particular period of time. When we first came into office, we used a package of support, which ran into the billions, to ensure that New Zealanders were seeing an increase in their incomes\u2014but we target it\u2014as I say: the Best Start payment, the winter energy payment, and those increases to the family tax credit way back in 2017. We\u2019ve also focused on seeing increases in people\u2019s wages. Right up until this year, you consistently saw wage increases that outstripped cost of living increases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280ea7ff09a054a55b0184d7a59b08999\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: What, in her view, is so wrong with just lifting the tax brackets to adjust for inflation so that middle-income Kiwis get a break from the cost of living crisis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276e5112bd5754422a118cbda9a966211\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, of course, it all depends on the circumstances and the situation that you\u2019re in at the time that such a proposal is tabled. I would note that the member\u2019s proposal not only gives tax cuts to those on the highest incomes\u2014and those on the lowest a mere $2 a week\u2014but also has the potential to be inflationary, which is exactly the issue that the member complains about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f0729db456b412ab02d18e3b7435a3f\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Is she ruling out any income tax relief at this Budget?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215aaff06fbaa4f51a4f3960549a3b8e5\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: As I\u2019ve already referenced in my answers, I\u2019m not going to speak directly to a Budget that the member only needs to wait a few sleeps for. But we\u2019ve already said, countless times, that our focus is on health services and, for instance, the other challenges facing New Zealand and our economy, including climate change. I note, with the member\u2019s proposal of taking out, for instance, up to a billion dollars from the economy for speculators, that the ability of a National Party in the future to invest in services like health would be seriously constrained.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022871a7b17d3fc463e8dad8b51db8d8153\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2ff12a00b32402a8fbe5c103cc787d0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I am going to call Chris Hipkins, but I am going to ask members on both sides to stop the exchange while the Prime Minister is answering questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5178aeb702044ef9f2ed6148cc4b16f\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Has she seen any credible commentary suggesting that middle-income earners are those earning over $180,000 a year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022720f174d66184da394320ba9a96cab89\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Again, I think you will have seen from many New Zealanders who have heard the proposal of tax cuts for those on over $180,000 a year\u2014and, at the same time, a tax proposal that delivers others on much lower incomes $2 a week\u2014I think they themselves have expressed a view on the likelihood that that is helping those who need it most at this time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226abc135f0a1d4f098cf0b359443e42ce\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Does she accept that every dollar this Government chooses to spend is a dollar less for Kiwi families struggling with the highest cost of living increase in a generation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266675314d75c415ab95c884dc05a45fa\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: You can see in the actions of this Government that we have been consistently focused on spending that lifts the services that New Zealanders value the most: education and health, our COVID response, our investment in income support, and making sure that the wage subsidy existed and kept people in work. When you compare, therefore, the economic outcomes that we\u2019ve had in the wake of COVID19 relative to the global financial crisis (GFC), you see the impact that that targeted spending has had. Our GDP sits at 5.6 percent growth, whereas relative to the GFC, you saw a decline of 1.2 percent. Unemployment at 3.2 percent; post-GFC, it was 6.6 percent. And even the proportion of people on main benefits is lower now than it was post the GFC. We stand by our response in the wake of this economic crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022209e37ff7d3b4aab81bfc9dfd504d837\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00227c301159779c416eae43b27162c4bcf2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c301159779c416eae43b27162c4bcf2\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports has he seen on the New Zealand economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00224e897e15399c4af0ad225093c8c0d2b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e897e15399c4af0ad225093c8c0d2b8\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E The Crown accounts released last week continue to reflect the strong position that New Zealand is in to manage the challenging global environment. For the nine months to the end of March, the operating balance before gains and losses deficit was $8.1 billion\u2014$4.1 billion below that forecast in December\u2019s Half Year Economic and Fiscal Update. The investments made by the Government to help keep businesses open and keep Kiwis in work has paid dividends. Projections of 10 percent unemployment and an economy going backwards were avoided because of the actions that we have taken. New Zealand is in a strong fiscal position as we deal with the ongoing economic impacts of the Omicron outbreak and the global inflation pressures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8f4ea249d344c5e8320902339bdbca1\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: What did the report say about net debt?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f8af0d0b1194c7289aa961bc5a6f3b7\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve continued to take a careful approach to our spending net core Crown debts to 36.3 percent of GDP\u2014$155 million less than forecast. This is substantially below the countries with which we compare ourselves. Our debt is set to peak at about half of Australia\u2019s, around a third of the UK, and around a fifth of the US measured consistently as a percentage of GDP. Our economy has come through the COVID shock better than almost anywhere else. The recovery has momentum and the easing of restrictions and opening up to skilled workers and tourists will help businesses and the economy rebuild. However, 2022 will continue to be a challenging year for many New Zealanders facing the impact of global inflation and the ongoing impact of the pandemic. Our new fiscal rules will ensure we\u2019re taking a balanced approach: controlling spending but targeting it to those who need it most, keeping a lid on debt and able to make those important investments in infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248fb89651969484f9b1f216d18042d9f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am going to allow the member to ask another supplementary but I\u2019m going to advise the Minister of Finance to be briefer in his response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022128b6a8b02de4bd3b73c9c23d4cb8943\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: What other reports has he seen on the New Zealand economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222873319ab73f4df385cc57a2e604f0e7\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, so many but last month credit rating agency Moody\u2019s reaffirmed New Zealand\u2019s local currency and foreign currency rating at triple A with a stable outlook. Moody\u2019s praised New Zealand\u2019s response to the pandemic, calling it effective and proactive. It noted New Zealand\u2019s resilience, supported the country\u2019s medium-term growth potential at a level higher than many advanced triple A countries. Moody\u2019s said New Zealand\u2019s solid fiscal metrics would stand it in good stead to respond to future shocks to growth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ba08a390c214909a14962b572be558c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member had actually answered the question within about five words.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226ce174ff77d24a43b953d13fe1944fd7\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u00229246351acc0b41488d5c656915468832\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229246351acc0b41488d5c656915468832\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: How much more income tax, if any, has the Government collected in the 2021 financial year compared to 2017, and will he commit to adjusting tax thresholds for inflation in Budget 2022?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002263256692dfb9416fb8003351a90b53e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263256692dfb9416fb8003351a90b53e5\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E The Crown accounts for the June 2021 financial year reflected the strong position New Zealand found itself in due to the Government\u2019s actions to protect lives and livelihoods in an extremely volatile and uncertain pandemic environment. As a result of the stronger economy, which led to higher business profits, more people in work, and higher wages, total income tax revenue, including corporate tax, in the year to June 2021 was $64.7 billion or 18.9 percent of GDP. In comparison, in the June 2017 financial year, total income tax revenue was $49.6 billion or 17.9 percent of GDP. To answer the second part of the question, the member will have to wait just a little longer to find out what decisions have been made in Budget 2022. What I can say is that we won\u2019t be putting in place untargeted tax cuts, such as the member is proposing, that would see her and her leader get thousands of dollars while those on low and middle incomes would get just $2 a week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229568caca2cdb4a7d802fb8720e2bae3e\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: How many more billions of dollars is the Government collecting in income tax revenue compared to 2017?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b43497485f334e8eae0ef0185376992d\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I did give those numbers to the member, so $64.7 billion minus $49.6 billion\u2014I\u2019m sure the member can work it out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022179ff7100ccd4e2bbcad78faab50ae3d\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree that bracket creep, the increase in tax over time that has resulted from inflation, can be considered, as described by his Tax Working Group, as a non-transparent increase in taxation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aaa468467fc74e48aa2de65e781a7725\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Many Governments over many years have had put to them the importance of addressing bracket creep. Addressing that has to be considered alongside the many, many other things that a Government needs to address, such as the arrival of a global pandemic, for instance, a one-in-one-hundred-year economic shock, or, for instance, dealing with under-investment in a health system after nine years of a National Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbf36b2815de4a398a205a5f67025f02\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Well, isn\u2019t it the case that he welcomes inflation-fuelled taxation by stealth because it allows him to spend even more of New Zealanders\u2019 hard-earned money?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215176d00d9154f5fa42afbb36b2508ab\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: What this Government has done consistently since we came into office is strike the balance between keeping a lid on debt so that New Zealand\u2019s debt levels are among the lowest in the world while also investing in the public services that were run down under the National Party. It is always a challenging and difficult balance to get that right, and then, in the middle of that, along came COVID. That meant we had to invest significant resources to support New Zealanders and keep them in jobs. When we did that, the National Party supported it. Now, with their 20/20 hindsight, they want to turn that around. It\u2019s just not believable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201b0c4d8e012401b991bbdec5bbc512d\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the amount of taxation as a percentage of the economy or as a percentage of GDP is just about identical now to that which it was under the National Party in the same period post the global financial crisis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f30ef4398c84666adc25be383c0587c\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely, I can confirm that. In fact, I can say, when it comes to personal income tax revenue, it was actually around about the same or slightly higher under National in 2009 and 2010.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f41fb71ed6148fa9cd208a9b65e859f\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: How can he possibly claim he is striking the right balance when this year alone he has collected $2.7 billion more in tax than forecast, and why, in the middle of a cost of living crisis, does he think it\u2019s acceptable to take more tax from hard-working New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225630f85834734668a298fee332fcf833\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t this interesting? The true National Party opposing more people being in work, opposing businesses getting higher profits, opposing people going out and consuming more and spending in their communities. We have struck a careful balance because we have kept net debt at levels that are much lower than the countries that we compare ourselves to while making sure that we invest in the core public services we need. The validation for that comes from the rating agencies who have given us triple A ratings: the IMF, the OECD, who have all said that New Zealand deserves to be congratulated for the way it\u2019s come through the pandemic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226d33168b1bd0443b95fc5addbb43dc70\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1464524e39a4f519bf640f5c415a723\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1464524e39a4f519bf640f5c415a723\u0022\u003EMARJA LUBECK (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: Noa\u2018ia, Mr Speaker. What action is the Government taking to give continued support to businesses in meeting their skill needs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca9f0f6720d64971a9a25281b3288c54\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca9f0f6720d64971a9a25281b3288c54\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Yesterday I announced, as part of Budget 2022, that we\u2019ll be providing for another 24,000 apprentices, getting the Apprenticeship Boost support, and some 14,000 apprentices will continue to get supported beyond August this year. In recognition of the significant growth in apprentices since 2020\u2014and the employment strength of the New Zealand economy\u2014and to extend the initiative at a reasonable cost, the first year subsidy rate will lower to $500 per month from 5 August 2022. The second year subsidy rate will remain at $500 per month, until the initiative ends in December 2023. There are already 17,000 employers involved in the programme, and today\u2019s investment means that new employers can also join up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec4b6e88dc114700aa51ddbb2c3448d5\u0022\u003EMarja Lubeck\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Government consider it important to make this investment at this time? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208260dad389c47f5a39ce8fea23427e1\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealand\u2019s economy is one of the strongest in the world, with record low unemployment of 3.2 percent, and economic activity up on what is was pre-COVID-19\u2014and I know they hate that, over there. That\u2019s in large part due to the investments that this Government has made, including in training and supporting New Zealanders into work. A key message that we hear from business is that they need more skilled workers, and we\u2019ve continued to invest in the training of New Zealanders, who are building our houses and upgrading our infrastructure, because we know how vital they are to the success of our recovery. Over the last two years, over 190,000 people have benefited from Government investment in trades training, including in apprenticeships. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f755e27c860e403287db5589e41bd121\u0022\u003EMarja Lubeck\u003C/span\u003E: What response has he seen to this investment? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec227f16709c43b680945adf16b20b85\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: More good news. Business New Zealand has said that the Apprenticeship Boost had, and I quote, \u201Cturbo charged\u201D an uptake in the number of people entering trades at the time of skill shortages, adding on to that: \u201CThe scheme has worked. We\u2019ve seen tens of thousands of people entering apprenticeships, up 55 percent \u2026 [on] the levels [that we] were up to previously.\u201D Another very positive comment from the Motor Trade Association, who called it \u201Cbrilliant news for the automotive industry\u201D, and the Building and Construction Industry Training Organisation said that the Apprenticeship Boost was \u201Cessential for the training of the skilled pipeline of workers needed in the building and construction industry.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ab0d201883bf42a4a9bc52086ad3b5bd\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Housing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00223eeda4b07b4b497585069d862e6c7908\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223eeda4b07b4b497585069d862e6c7908\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing: Does she stand by her statement that extending income-related rent subsidies to council housing tenants will \u201Ccome at the expense of the Government building new houses for people on the public housing waiting list\u201D, or do the recently announced fiscal rules mean that this Government could increase debt to pay for building new housing while also extending rent subsidies? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef90a6d82bbc4bd3ada44fce9c9b8747\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef90a6d82bbc4bd3ada44fce9c9b8747\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E To the first part of the question: yes. To the second part of the question: the Government\u2019s new fiscal rules apply to fiscal policy as a whole; they don\u2019t specify particular spending outcomes on a portfolio basis. The debt rules are a ceiling, not a target. There are two significant financial constraints in increasing the number of public houses. One is the capital expenditure required to build the homes. The second is the continued annual and ongoing commitment to provide the operational expenditure for the income-related rent subsidy (IRRS). On the first\u2014the capital constraints\u2014K\u0101inga Ora leverages its own balance sheet to borrow to build houses. K\u0101inga Ora is able to issue its own debt up to a Government-set limit of $8.3 billion in the private market. It also has nearly $2 billion in loans from the Crown. The debt is not solely for additional housing delivery, as it also funds a number of other activities undertaken by K\u0101inga Ora, including redevelopment, land acquisition, and infrastructure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EHowever, the IRRS expenditure, or the income-related rent expenditure the member refers to, is operating expenses, not debt funding, and it needs to come within the operating allowances of the annual budget. Since we have come into Government, I\u2019m pleased to report we have increased the expenditure on IRRS from the $890 million the previous Government annually paid in 2017-18, to $1.318 billion forecast for this financial year. This represents a 48 percent increase in IRRS. If we were to apply the IRRS to council houses that have already been built, we would be applying this to existing housing rather than continuing our record house-building programme. If we are to solve the housing crisis, we simply have to build more homes, and we are unashamedly pulling every lever to increase housing supply. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b226d27cde54786b30f939c8cf3f45d\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a14ddc756834697a99153eed391c8a1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Look\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5b0e68d66b341b69cc2c4c9c31a0044\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: It wasn\u2019t! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022419534a338464124a5bc43e89f26a39d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member does have a question later, and he\u2019s a bit lucky he\u2019s going to be here for it. Can I just say that the length of answers is something for my judgment, and reflecting on my judgment is something which is not appropriate. I was warned that that was to be a longer answer. I will say to the Minister that there was probably a bit more in it than was absolutely necessary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b789a2c143d64ee7ab2155c6658e74d2\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: I like to be helpful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b938cfaf5da246abb599486f4e6d798a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will stand, withdraw, and apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cef7afd13d6f405bb13a6f8758e72302\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022275b6753fd034aea84e324f88d065e2a\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Does she believe that capping rents at 25 percent of weekly incomes helps prevent homelessness by ensuring social housing tenants can afford a decent standard of living, stay in their homes, and put down roots in their community, and, if so, does she believe it is important to enable this for local government housing tenants as well? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1ab08d6a917470da59f6628b7c2abc3\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, the Government\u2019s public housing provider, K\u0101inga Ora, does have an income-related rent subsidy. It caps at 25 percent, and this is afforded to a number of community housing providers (CHPs) that qualify for IRRS funding. When it comes to councils, I think it\u2019s worth remembering that it is only since 2015-16, when the National Government readied the public housing network for sell-off, that councils became eligible to receive IRRS funding. Previously, they did that by setting their own affordable housing rents and utilised the accommodation supplement. I would point the member to the fact that PricewaterhouseCoopers actually did a review of the proportion of income that council tenants around the country were paying. Some were, in fact, paying less than 25 percent; some were paying substantially more. It\u2019s really down to individual councils for them to take responsibility around the provision of affordable housing for their communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225041acdec2f947a8b58b11d5ea3c4858\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with her former colleague Annette King\u2019s wish for councils to have had access to income-related rent subsidies during the previous National Government and with the current Labour Party Wellington City councillor Rebecca Matthews, who is calling on this Government to \u201Chelp us out here with income related rent subsidies.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d65157abd17f45b291a66a0caf59c625\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: We have been working with the Wellington City Council for around a year now. It is a complicated issue. There is the matter of the $220 million loan that was given to the Wellington City Council that needs to be delivered on its obligations under that loan by I think it\u2019s 2036\u2014so we\u2019re working around progress around the terms of that loan\u2014and also the level at which Wellington City makes its own contribution and what the city is contributing. I compare this to some other councils around the country who are setting much lower and much more affordable rents for their citizens. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d06d6f2a9c2490c87a730d7ae9fa3f8\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: What recent advice, if any, has she received on the potential capacity for local councils, community providers, and iwi to build new, affordable rental housing if the Government underwrote the financing or provided capital grants and provided rent subsidies on an ongoing basis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8da1841f4204317be9d38b67196cd95\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: I think if the member were to look closely at what our Government is doing in the area of the provision of community housing, he would see that we are doing just what he talks about. If we look here in this city, at Arlington, this is of course a long-term contract with Wellington City Council, and we are doing this around the country with upfront funding which the CHPs\u201D are able to capitalise or councils are able to capitalise in order to build housing. If he has a look at the number of houses being provided by CHPs under the settings our Government is providing, he will see that it is vastly increased than it was under the previous Government. And one of the reasons for that is because in order to provide public housing, you\u2019ve got to have an annual and ongoing commitment to the income-related rent subsidy. It\u2019s not just the capital funding, it\u2019s also the operating funding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b69b7efddaaf4b04ac072dff2c05646a\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: How would she respond to Wellington resident Debbie Port, who pays 59 percent of her income in rent on a Wellington council flat and said at the income-related rent subsidy petition handover, \u201CHow am I meant to pay for food? How am I meant to pay for power? How am I meant to do everything I need to do for my health, if it all goes on rent?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022948eb56b28714392888271bba932e537\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, for anybody who is struggling with their household expenses, I would say to them that I understand that things are tough. But I would also say to that resident that she should also talk to her city council. The Wellington City Council sets its rents for its tenants. Other councils around the country set them at lower limits. If we are going to solve a housing crisis, we need all of our community working together. Central government has a critical part to play and we are partnering with CHPs, we are partnering with iwi, and we are partnering with councils, but we also need those who have traditionally provided affordable houses in the community to continue to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f77e23245c0b4b5f8c62f3a1cccc208e\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: What role does she believe local government should have in providing social housing and helping reduce the public housing waiting list, and does she believe current financing arrangements for local government enable them to meet their aspirations as social housing providers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232ecf79b36464e5da6452778a6d34095\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the first part of the question, I think that local government has an absolutely critical part to play in solving this housing crisis, that local government since the 1930s has been at the forefront of the provision of affordable housing for their communities, and that is a long and historic tradition that we want to see continue. I think the member should note it is only since 2015 and 2016\u2014under the corporatisation that the National Government put in place to ready houses for sell off that required the transfer to community housing provider models\u2014that what he is calling for came to exist. I want to see us have far more sustainable, less corporatised models of housing that put people first.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b4ef9ba8afb943dea6b96a2871130e95\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac70a9543e9b4e3b8277068cf4d4656c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac70a9543e9b4e3b8277068cf4d4656c\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by the statement she made in her pre-Budget speech last year, \u201CWe need to be aspirational, and have a plan\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u0022e320d4b142894cd7b64ef86d18a491ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e320d4b142894cd7b64ef86d18a491ca\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister) (remote):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I stand by my full statement, which I will shorten for the benefit of the House and this remote viewing but which included, \u201CWe need to be aspirational and have a plan, but we also need to be disciplined and prioritise.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022138503d4b7a949c58c32a2763a548a91\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Why has productivity grown by just 2.6 percent since 2017 while some former Soviet socialist republics have overtaken us, and was her aspiration and plan always to be more like them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022573f347927414d40b32e595fa5148977\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: The member casts aspersions on this entire House with that statement, given productivity has been an issue that successive Governments have worked to tackle. The member will have seen that over time, of course, we\u2019ve seen improvements\u2014over a number of years, gradual as they may be. But, again, the very issues that we need to address if we\u2019re to improve our productivity as a nation include, for instance, investing in skills and training. I note the member wishes to get rid of the first year free of post-secondary education. We\u2019d also include investment in research and development. I note the member would like to get rid of the R \u0026amp; D tax credit and Callaghan Innovation. It seems we have very different views on what will improve our productivity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241d11c3a0415441db00247b494b96a76\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: What sort of aspersions would she cast on the Australian Parliament since the median Australian workers\u2019 hourly rate has grown by $3.20 an hour or $6,600 a year more than the average Kiwi worker since she\u2019s been in Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c9c15e6505743f48bb824bc790565fa\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: And, again, an issue that successive Governments have seen, and one in which we\u2019ve been very clear that part of driving productivity includes driving innovation within industry. Higher wages prompt that investment in innovation. It\u2019s one of the reasons that we have promoted the fair pay agreements as a way of, instead of driving towards low wages and poor terms and conditions for workers, encouraging investment that enables greater productivity. I note, again, for the member that fair pay agreements are something that Australia have indeed adopted and implemented.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298b93197d3e5427e82509b46f894da84\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: When the Prime Minister just tried to argue that unionisation is one of those things that will help raise wages in New Zealand, was she aware that only 14 percent of Australians choose to join unions compared with 18 percent in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f7874dbb51045858cf49d6917fccd43\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: What I was arguing was that decent wages help drive productivity and that in New Zealand you need to have a role to play in driving decent wages. Regardless of the member\u2019s view in that regard, it should not stop him from recognising the role of, for instance, fair pay agreements, which can assist in driving fair terms and conditions for workers. And, again, I reflect the fact that they are used in Australia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251ee3392ff9d4a57a0aedd5e795b1345\u0022\u003EHon Michael Wood\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister confirm that since 1991, when New Zealand removed sector-based bargaining from its industrial relations framework, Australia\u2019s rate of labour productivity has been 46 percent higher, on average, per year than New Zealand\u2019s?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229108ba3fca74458c98de079c3aa343c3\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and, again, I reflect that the tools that Australia has used to ensure that we don\u2019t have a race to the bottom when it comes to wages are, for instance, fair pay agreements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4a9a747bd634cdb9dc1fd6859ae592d\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does she believe it\u2019s sustainable to keep our superannuation entitlement age at 65 when Australia, America, Britain, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Spain, to name a few, are raising their ages of entitlement; and, if so, how does she explain that to young taxpayers thinking of leaving New Zealand for more welcoming economic climes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3ef438fcb5042c6b1050a69071f4dcb\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: My message would be that if you wish to retire at an older age than your parents, then the fastest track towards that is to have a party in Government, via the ACT and National parties, who refuse to invest in the Superannuation Fund. We\u2019ve made a commitment to that Superannuation Fund, and I see that ACT, again, has announced that they wish to cut their contribution. It\u2019s those kinds of policies which mean that we will not have consistency in our retirement policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccb650c129ca47b98d72b0b95e644f20\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister explain to those young people how investing in the New Zealand Superannuation Fund while also borrowing money to run Government each year, is sensible economics; and would she advise young people to invest in Sharesies using their credit card, because that\u2019s what she just advocated?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5f43668231e48a687a4d66eb1b1cadf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member\u2019s going to rephrase the question\u2014especially the last part of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240423629944748679cbb3569cb7d37ff\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll try my best, Mr Speaker. Does the Prime Minister believe that it is helpful to borrow money on the global debt markets and put that same money into the New Zealand Superannuation Fund, which is what she is currently doing by investing, as she calls it, in the Superannuation Fund, and, if that is good economic sense, would she advise the same young people to borrow money on their credit card to invest in Sharesies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276cd94f518344ad091c4184ab521f530\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister can answer the first part of the question, for which she has responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022623cb2f85baa4cc29f9ca61c635d7a1a\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I would actually refer the member to the Minister of Finance\u2019s recent reflections around our fiscal strategy, which demonstrate our focus on ensuring that when we are making future investments that require or draw down debt that it is focused, for instance, on those long-term challenges that we have and, for instance, infrastructure as part of that, and ensuring, of course, that our ongoing revenue as a country day to day fuels the spending decisions we make day to day. That is why we have also, alongside our debt ceilings, promoted that we would be working towards surpluses over a period of time of between zero and 2 percent of GDP.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210f05eabe4f64323b03eb463e4c3ad9a\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Are our productivity and wages low because, according to the OECD, it\u2019s easier for foreigners to invest in China, Saudi Arabia, and Myanmar than New Zealand, leaving Kiwi workers with less capital and technology to work with?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc6209b2164647b7aee63ae45600c0b1\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, God, what a Neanderthal!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022167b7bedaf7944bcb96e297f301a5700\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a164155ebb384c4aaf9e2adb4bfbcfd7\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: What I can speak to is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292c2444df33e4e1da6c7c2eff3126087\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! No, no, sorry. I apologise to the Prime Minister. The member who made that comment will stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221813e0c4f0d44c478c68dcd8fe44fc0e\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269afda2c98ca4371880bbb618623a0ed\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Prime Minister, start again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022675c4222f3c14975b824c98996a28fb3\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: What I can reference is the frequent reference by the OECD and the IMF towards the under-investment historically that New Zealand has had in skills and training that would cover off the skills gap that we have in New Zealand. That has been one of the contributing factors. I note that this is an area where the member is proposing that instead of investing, we see cuts. As a Government, we\u2019ve been proud of the investment that we\u2019ve made in this area. We\u2019ve made apprenticeships free; we\u2019ve got, of course, the Apprenticeship Boost, which has supported employers to continue to keep apprentices on, and we\u2019ve extended that as of yesterday; and the first year of fees-free, we know, has also encouraged a number of young people to continue with their training and education. These are all areas where it\u2019s been noted by other financial institutions that it will make a significant difference to our productivity if we continue that investment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ce5984b84c0042a7b825925290b6d815\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Social Development and Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00226d4f644002854b178ff96d4e0aaacec2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d4f644002854b178ff96d4e0aaacec2\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: What recent announcements has she made about supporting people into employment, education, or training?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u002210c63a7a72ab4e2c8f7d59b66731889d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210c63a7a72ab4e2c8f7d59b66731889d\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Happy New Zealand Sign Language Week, Youth Week, Rotuman Language Week, and New Zealand Music Month. Yesterday, Minister Hipkins and I announced the extension to Apprenticeship Boost, Mana in Mahi, and the M\u0101ori Trades and Training Fund. Apprenticeship Boost has supported around 45,000 new apprentices and begun building the workforce we need to futureproof our economy. Yesterday the Government announced $230 million in Budget 2022 for additional investment to support another 24,000 apprentices and to continue to support 14,000 more beyond August of this year. There are already 17,000 employers involved in the programme and this investment will provide certainty to them and ensure new employers can sign up. This investment goes a long way to bridging the skills gap and providing work-ready employees for New Zealand businesses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e59d9868c95a4efbba671575369a951a\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Government extending M\u0101ori trades and training?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022460e1e89f6bf4c25b2aed4e5053c5800\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: M\u0101ori trades and training is showing incredible promise as a programme. Last financial years it was over-subscribed with high demand for M\u0101ori entities willing to deliver employment-focused training programmes in their communities. The by M\u0101ori, for M\u0101ori approach aligns with the all-of-Government employment strategy and M\u0101ori Employment Action Plan, which seeks an improved M\u0101ori-Crown partnership to deliver more equitable labour market outcomes for M\u0101ori. The contracted programmes that have been launched have 254 participants, with 177 in employment so far. The programmes have a retention rate of 95 percent. A total of 813 participants are expected to be supported through training with a Te Ao M\u0101ori focus and into sustainable employment under existing partnerships, with more already being developed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f020a365b2f642059d10868ef03dcaea\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Government extending Mana in Mahi?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279684fcdefae4c889085717bef498a34\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: Mana in Mahi is performing above expectations. By the end of the programme, participants have had significant investment into their above expectations. By the end of the programme, participants have had significant investment into their skills and experience and are more likely to continue in employment. Currently, 89 percent of the 4,719 participants have found work, are still active on the programme, or have exited their placement early and are not on benefit. More than half of the current participants are working towards a level 4 qualification or above. Mana in Mahi is a fantastic programme that provides significant incentives to employers and participants when they need it most.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223c11db0db3564580ac11359a2697c276\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Social Development and Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4e106b6f257414db3b22df00bae584d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4e106b6f257414db3b22df00bae584d\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Is she confident the Government\u2019s employment initiatives represent good value for money; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u002247e5c5e8fbf748159c868c7f24931194\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247e5c5e8fbf748159c868c7f24931194\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Based on the fact that this Government has got more people off benefit and into work in the last year than any other Government, I\u2019d say our suite of employment initiatives is doing OK. For the first time, the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) now report on the effectiveness of their programmes annually, and publish those results online via a new digital tracking tool. It\u2019s a very transparent process and one I endorse. There will always be programmes that perform better than others, and MSD are constantly looking to evolve and do things better. Our pilot programmes are similar, some work well and others don\u2019t hit the mark. The previous Government\u2019s social bonds initiative\u2014which cost $984,000 and met 12.6 percent of its target\u2014is a good example of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254238780b3a5473db8fd9547443ba4fe\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: How many of the 176,000 people on the jobseeker benefit secured a job from the online job expos that cost taxpayers $6,626 for every one of the 126 attendees?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294115bc28d2047bc95122a5323d22cf9\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: Firstly, let me just clarify that of the 170-something-thousand job seekers a number of them are on jobseekers health condition and disability and so therefore are not necessarily work-ready. As I have said to the media with regards to the online tool, it was something that MSD trialled and it provides us with some learnings, with some infrastructure for our digital developments moving forward. However, it didn\u2019t provide a large number of jobs, not like a number of our other programmes. A very similar number, I think, participated in the online Zoom programme\u2014around about 120, which was about the same number that was successful through the National Government\u2019s social bonds investment: 124 versus the 900-and-something, or a thousand, it was funded for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cbdb50f0e054831bb83586da4f03554\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: Why, almost two years since the M\u0101ori Trades and Training Fund was allocated $50 million, has it supported just 44 people into jobs\u2014which is more than a million dollars per job?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229366fb9907434794bfe067096ed9a3a7\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: I would question the numbers of that member. Also, I would say a couple of things. A lot of the investment has been spent with regards to supporting provider capability. This side of the House is very supportive of supporting for M\u0101ori, by M\u0101ori. And that\u2019s certainly a major element of our M\u0101ori trades training focus. Also, as another side impact to M\u0101ori trades training, we have had a pandemic to contend with\u2014that does not mean that the programme is not successful and that we will not continue to invest in it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe13c0c5a3f540f7ba021c240a174597\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the $311 million Flexi-wage extension not on track to deliver the 40,000 jobs when firms are crying out for staff and 176,000 New Zealanders are on the jobseeker benefit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288a8789f91c04ee0b93293ae5a18c438\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: Just clarifying again to that member that a large number of the 176,000 New Zealanders on jobseeker benefit actually are on the health and conditions and disability jobseeker support benefit\u2014really important to clarify that. At the time that we made the announcement around the 40,000 places for Flexi-wage, Treasury were anticipating that we would reach the peaks of around 480,000 people on benefit. We haven\u2019t got anywhere near that, but the programme was certainly designed with that in mind. In saying that, we\u2019re just over a year into the programme and I think we\u2019ve seen about 15,000 people go through Flexi-wage. The success rate is still immensely effective and the results are good. And, just like any other programme, we expect it to ramp up and we look forward to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc76588ad5eb4f158879e0445177de83\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: How much does the Minister think the Government\u2019s employment initiatives have contributed to the fact that there are 291,000 more New Zealanders in work than there were in 2017, and that we have an unemployment rate of 3.2 percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7dd8c864a4c460fb912e007ecf8c09b\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: The way in which this Government has responded with respect to investing heavily into employment programmes, into front-line, work-focused case management, and to investing in things like the wage subsidy to secure jobs so that people didn\u2019t find themselves unemployed, has meant that we have beaten the odds and not reached the depths that had been forecast initially. I think that it is something we can be quite proud of\u2014that we are in a position where as a country we have a 3.2 percent unemployment rate. We continue to remain focused, and as our announcement yesterday with regards to investment and employment programmes showed, this is very much a priority for our Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286806dea725b4c1fad8d6c6a2bff98e2\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: Why, despite over a billion dollars being spent on employment initiatives, have long-term jobseeker benefit recipients increased by 60 percent under Labour?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba8c7460aec9403a9770386b1ed9a341\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: When you see the numbers of people go up, with regards to benefit numbers in general, then you will see that in every category with regards to time frames. I am still heartened by the fact that we are seeing more exits off benefit into employment than what we have seen since electronic records were kept. If I just reflect on the last week, another 1,000\u2014or actually 999 to be exact\u2014New Zealanders have moved off benefit. That speaks to this Government\u2019s track record. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e680d8f1ffd0469ea99681dc6bb4a0d3\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Police\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u002239a65e71cf854412b7a5ca1ccf858c78\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239a65e71cf854412b7a5ca1ccf858c78\u0022\u003EGINNY ANDERSEN (Labour\u2014Hutt South)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: What recent announcements has she made regarding the number of police officers on the front line?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022 data-id=\u00221bebcfd0baa84705a1f5c5b412b4ceff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221bebcfd0baa84705a1f5c5b412b4ceff\u0022\u003EHon POTO WILLIAMS (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E On Sunday, I was at Counties Manukau Police Station with my justice sector colleagues to announce $562 million in funding over four years into Police so they continue to have the resource they need to keep our communities safe. This is in addition to our already record investment in Police since 2017. Budget 2022 also sets out $50 million from next year to ensure that we continue to grow the number of police officers in line with population growth. This will mean that there will be one police officer for every 480 people, and delivers on a key manifesto commitment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202a6cef23764450da80802882bd0c575\u0022\u003EGinny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: How many police recruits have graduated since this Government came into office?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6efc290b76e467bacb0f1fab9194214\u0022\u003EHon POTO WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Last week I attended my 13th police graduation as Minister of Police, which saw 71 recruits graduate and deploy to the front line. This brings the total number of police graduates since 2017 to 3,145. The additional police investments we are delivering through Budget 2022 means that police numbers will not drop as our population increases, as they did in 2011 and 2013. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffc7966f22ef4db4b2efd5bf43a61b11\u0022\u003EGinny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: What does having more police officers on the front line mean for keeping our communities safe?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200303ef87aa84ed1adc13d7e237a53f6\u0022\u003EHon POTO WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: This Government has been clear: more police means safer communities. That is why we have seen over 3,000 recruits through Police College since we came to office, with 1,400 additional police officers on the front line. As one commentator put it, \u201CDon\u2019t underestimate the strength of that thin blue line when it is properly supported and empowered to do their job.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207bbff7fbf3a4634ac665d99b8a1b58c\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Why isn\u2019t it working?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cf006f913c44c4ab07312e3e12520f0\u0022\u003EHon POTO WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s why Budget 2022 makes further record investments into Police, and I welcome Mr Mitchell\u2019s support for that additional funding. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa74c63e7148423ab37f611c47e2fe3c\u0022\u003EChris Baillie\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the net increase in police numbers in the last month was four? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe0953877d8f461b8dae642b2e64c0b4\u0022\u003EHon POTO WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: What I can say is we are well on track to increase\u2014no, I cannot confirm that. I don\u2019t know where that member gets his numbers from, but what I can confirm is 1,800 extra police by the end of the year, six months ahead of budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222c385284033b41d1a6c68a9e9857a8f0\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Justice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u002256d6648f2d1049d6948d663afb1dc12f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002256d6648f2d1049d6948d663afb1dc12f\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: Is he confident the Government\u2019s justice policies are effective in keeping New Zealanders safe from crime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db229b8902bc4605abcf2024eb80717d\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Glad you woke up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022 data-id=\u00224efce70cd9444a6ea7d1774b65daee3b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224efce70cd9444a6ea7d1774b65daee3b\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Noa\u2018ia, Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022605667d906cd4f5f8dd980b89b2775d2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I\u2019ve been awake the whole time. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4001d282d6f496389bcd508426c114f\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: Noa\u2018ia, Mr Speaker. Yes, we are using all of the justice system to respond to crime through improvements to prevention, investigations, processing, and rehabilitation. This was reflected at Sunday\u2019s announcement of a major package of law and order measures that further increases police numbers, cracks down on gangs, and extends successful rehabilitation programmes to break the cycle of offending and entering a life of crime. This builds on the progress of previous years where the total crime rate has remained relatively static between 2014 and 2021 as have burglaries and aggravated robberies. Youth crime has decreased by approximately 14 percent between the same period and people who commit violent crime are still being sent to prison.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233ba5e89791c45a9a88909adcf657089\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: In light of his comment on the weekend, \u201CIn recent years we have seen increases in gun crime, gang activity and even more recently some forms of youth offending that puts both our communities and our police at risk.\u201D, what responsibility does he take for this as a result after 4\u00BD years of Labour\u2019s justice policies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfe51d3eba6948c69ba22ff09fe55b45\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: I take great responsibility in announcing in the same way at the weekend the continued record investment in police, continued support for our communities. We\u2019re trying to deal with organised crime through programmes like the Resilience to Organised Crime in Communities, making sure that we resource and work with communities to deal with organised crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b413c54058d14784aec0586b99d7f5cd\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Will Sunday\u2019s Budget announcement lead to more action than the 2020 Budget announcement of $20 million to aid the prosecution of strangulation cases and to help victims, which two years later has barely produced anything?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d073728a06d46e28d0b3b1886da1a7e\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: What I will take responsibility in terms of this Budget is, as the police Minister has already outlined, we\u2019ll continue to resource the front line, as opposed to the previous Government which saw police numbers drop by 300 between 2013 and 2014.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022202976e3332c4c6d9864c67896048501\u0022\u003EGolriz Ghahraman (remote)\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with former finance Minister Sir Bill English that justice policies which aim to lock up more people in prisons for longer are a \u201Cfiscal and moral failure\u201D; if so, what evidence-based justice policies is he implementing to tackle the causes of it ending in our communities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237d12ef91e5d46dd8ccdc53010614eeb\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: While, thankfully, I\u2019m not responsible for Mr English\u2019s comments we do agree, as Minister Davis mentioned on Sunday, that prisons are an indication of fiscal and moral failure. The current Government has managed to reduce the prison population quite significantly over the last 4\u00BD years, which means we are doing much better fiscally than the previous Government and much better morally than the previous Government. We are working with the likes of the Green Party Ministers to address the issues such as family and sexual violence, which we are proud to make sure that we are committed to during this Budget as well. And I\u2019d like to again point out the work that we\u2019re doing through a number of agencies around resilience to organised crime in our communities; making sure again we resource communities, aid agencies, and give local leadership to make sure that we\u2019re dealing with organised crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f964de5c9564a4683ff379427ef79e0\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Does he understand the frustration of retailers like dairy owner Mr Vatsa, whose dairy suffered $20,000 worth of damages in a ram raid and said, \u201CThere should be stricter penalties for these kids. They should be held accountable for their actions. They know nothing will happen.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244026d4e274e45279434fbdd4a191012\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: We obviously sympathise with the challenges that some of those businesses are going through at the moment and, as a number of Ministers have said, the justice agencies and Ministers are working on measures to be able to make sure that we can help protect those businesses. What I would say is that the sentencing measures available to police there\u2014the maximum penalty of 10 years\u2014but first to make sure that you sentence you actually have to find the people responsible and again we\u2019ve invested in making sure we have more police on the beat to make sure we can investigate and make sure we bring people to justice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce8ad8100040442b887fe26b165ce577\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Why is his Government contemplating spending money to subsidise bollards in front of shops rather than dealing with the real problem, which is that repeat youth offenders face little or no consequences for their actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a46b6832559b4bd2866cd891b71b281d\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: The member isn\u2019t blind to the work that the Government is doing to make sure that we do reduce youth crime. It has been decreasing, as I said, over years, and, at the moment, we are experiencing a spike in that kind of activity, and we are responding to the needs of those people who are being affected by those crimes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255838ce8106b4d9fbacc00676d8ae071\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware of any reports that suggest that the last question is wrong, and that most of these ram raids are not repeat offenders, and it\u2019s the first time they\u2019ve come in contact with the police?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002290ea1538-43e8-4257-bd80-df3ccd1e5f27\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e37281286f724ffc9cedcc66b54acd4f\u0022\u003EHon KRIS FAAFOI\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Obviously, there has been some commentary in the media recently about the types of youth who are responsible for the crime. There are some issues which cause them to offend: the likes of economic conditions at home, housing\u2014all issues that the current Government is addressing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b868ba542e1246b2873de93b48c17981\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Biosecurity\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u0022f486d45031ee4183a2aa19eaa161fd02\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f486d45031ee4183a2aa19eaa161fd02\u0022\u003EJO LUXTON (Labour\u2014Rangitata) (remote)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Biosecurity: What recent announcements has he made on eradicating Mycoplasma bovis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9aa289329d34dfa9e66ee372933835e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9aa289329d34dfa9e66ee372933835e\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Minister for Biosecurity):\u003C/span\u003E Last Thursday, I was pleased to join the Prime Minister, Dairy New Zealand, Beef \u002B Lamb, and the Ministry for Primary Industries at the national bulk-milk testing lab, MilkTestNZ, to announce that we are just one infected property away from becoming the first country in the world to successfully eradicate Mycoplasma bovis. [Applause] Thank you. This is a significant achievement that we have achieved in partnership with the primary sector and once again shows that this Government is committed to supporting our primary sector and rural communities. We have cleared 271 farms of Mycoplasma bovis, and plans are under way to clear that remaining infected property. I want to thank industry and New Zealand\u2019s rural communities for partnering with this Government to take on this challenge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250e0ad9ae41a4301aa4092ff631b56e1\u0022\u003EJo Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: How will the Government manage the M. bovis eradication programme, going forward?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db20a1e6a0f6401f8de7dc94f4faf9be\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is working with industry partners on the transition of the Mycoplasma bovis eradication programme to an agency under a national pest-management plan for implementation within the next year. This will see us move from delimiting to provisional absence of the disease, including significant surveillance testing of herds around the country to provide assurance that there are no undetected pockets of the disease. The world-class bulk-milk testing and beef herd surveillance developed over the past four years will continue to be crucial tools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff8a20a7f0b845d7ac30a32fae684e7b\u0022\u003EJo Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: How will the Government continue to support industry to prevent similar incursions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5ee53caa38446e38b8b1fd565301cc6\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is strengthening New Zealand\u2019s biosecurity system as part of Budget 2022 to help protect our vital primary sector and native flora and fauna from disease incursions and to manage incursions when they do occur. Last Thursday, I was pleased to announce that Budget 2022 will deliver funding of $42.9 million to bolster the biosecurity system and $68 million over the next year for Mycoplasma bovis eradication.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bee3e562596044a3ad63deccaa2ffd0b\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Police\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u002221dfdfa70b9c4746951fd2a47cad4998\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221dfdfa70b9c4746951fd2a47cad4998\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Whangapar\u0101oa)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: Does she stand by her statement, \u201CThere is no doubt that violence and gang tensions are a feature of our community\u201D, and why has gang membership increased by 40 percent since 2017?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022 data-id=\u002290d5513812aa48ec99410a0a854d91b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290d5513812aa48ec99410a0a854d91b5\u0022\u003EHon POTO WILLIAMS (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E In answer to the member\u2019s first question, I stand by the full context of my statement, which was that gang tensions have been a feature of New Zealand society for well over a century. In answer to the second part of the member\u2019s question, the member is referring to the National Gang List, which is an internal police intelligence tool. As police have publicly said, it remains an unreliable measure of gang membership. The way to deal with gang tensions and gang membership is by giving police the tools and resources they need, and that is why Budget 2022 includes $562 million for police over four years, of which $94 million will go towards tackling gangs and organised crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe89685b382c4343a316276bd8b526eb\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Have gang tensions increased under her watch?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e76b70a8659a4a7da2bfb8042e2c1305\u0022\u003EHon POTO WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: In 2017, there were 2,138 violent offences committed by gang members. In 2021, there were 1,704. And I agree with the member that you need more police to get the job done, and that\u2019s why Budget 2022 sets aside funding to ensure police numbers continue to align with population growth, which means they won\u2019t fall as they did in 2011 and 2013.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022315b5e166e6147d9a459ef29e3fb68db\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: So is the Minister telling this House that gang tensions have decreased under this Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fbc2786ee7249b1a9f78d7937fdb5f2\u0022\u003EHon POTO WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: The work that we have done has seen the charging rates against gang members increase 92 percent under our watch. We have provided police with the resources that they need to undertake major operations against serious crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225668f5d692a840a48600d77ca75349f1\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Is this investment in targeting the gangs an admission that the Government\u2019s soft-on-crime approach has failed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3cdd32a9cc34a65afdca473fbc4dba1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member can rephrase his question. He\u2019s lucky.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272e44b558b794492a66c9940819e6eac\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Is this investment in targeting the gangs a result of this Government\u2019s soft-on-crime approach that may have failed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f4e695a07ca4222a321a7a4d70c8f2d\u0022\u003EHon POTO WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a1b31fb93ac43309234596a865eddb4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! The member will resume her seat. The member can ask another supplementary now if he wants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022565cab39c9f24c34979e03efab5abf88\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Minister most worried about in relation to gangs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8b9e1c2063a46fe9dadc29a0682f0cd\u0022\u003EHon Kelvin Davis\u003C/span\u003E: A National Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d97d56b13c184553aeec2202958e7970\u0022\u003EHon POTO WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah. What most troubles me is that if the National Government ever gets their hands on the Treasury benches again\u2014$562 million is a record investment into police. And what this proves is we back our police\u2014we back them to do their jobs\u2014and we will stand by them every step of the way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205f3f44a7653416b9665d311362ef4cd\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294f460c2bdea4c54ac9abecf1fade7b2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s used all his supplementaries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a355a09946e4845825a06d104653960\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. That was a very straight question and all I got was a political answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243bdf9c4e0c44ade81da3d0464a9fe5f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think it\u2019s fair to say that the member has dished up quite a series of very political questions, and having a response which is similar to the approach that he\u2019s taken is something that he should expect, given both his prior experience and his parliamentary experience.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d2ffbd6685941deab98918c43a17d32\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, just a point of order on your guidance, Mr Speaker. Sorry, could you point me to exactly where I\u2019m being political in my questions to the Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279e83161bfc64605a1e56ef712f259ed\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think it\u2019s fair to say that taken as a general group, the member has been very political. That\u2019s not a criticism, but it\u2019s just a fact of life that when one takes that approach, the Speaker is more lenient with allowing Ministers to respond. And, similarly, where Ministers are more political in their responses, at that point I have much more flexibility for members asking the questions to be political as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e123650461834b8fafc6d4d4dbd58c10\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Mr Speaker, point of order. Sorry to re-litigate it, but I have asked specifically for you to point out to me\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cacdc8c7ef584c5e8a30b10fe4d66bb7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and if the member wants to come and have a cup of coffee with me, I\u2019ll work it through with him, but it\u2019s not my job to run tutorials for him in the House, especially a member of his experience.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2d6fbf4590c4c678c3505b55348b0ff\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Yeah, Mr Speaker, I think the problem here is that while you might correctly point out that there is a degree of flexibility about how the two Standing Orders for both questions and answers are interpreted by whoever is sitting in the Chair, the answer that was given to that last question was largely in response to an interjection that was made that was rare, hardly reasonable but certainly a little bit humorous. But for the answer from a Minister to be, \u201CWell, my biggest fear in the portfolio is the Government changes.\u201D\u2014that could be an answer to every question that ever gets asked in here. It most certainly would not be in the public interest, despite what the Minister giving the answer might believe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a69530f96ed04003a68d7fc2fb8be837\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to that point of order, if the Opposition don\u2019t want to know what the Minister\u2019s worried about they perhaps shouldn\u2019t ask a question along the lines of \u201CWhat\u2019s the Minister worried about?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022624bd84c9759427f986e65f42a8f2915\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, well, is this going to really add any more value to it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228aee65786d3e4fda9fceee15dad0be49\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: I think it will, Mr Speaker. Point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fcfdd115ef048db8dad8a63f41857dd\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I reckon it\u2019s a long shot, but have a go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022720c5a822f184078b3db13a5eefc8da2\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: My question was very specific and very direct in relation to a major concern in this country at the moment and that\u2019s around the behaviour of gangs and the proliferation of the numbers. That was a very direct question to the Minister responsible. It was completely political; she talked about the National Party. She didn\u2019t address the question at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0d3fdbf4e6a4940a6ffc7f2c45f60e9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member asked a question which couldn\u2019t actually be much broader within a specific area, and it does open it up to the Minister to respond as she wishes or as she is prompted. And when that occurs, the member can\u2019t complain. If he wants narrow answers, he should ask narrow questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022344344\u0022 data-id=\u002289546a7ac3c748909b3ca68c345ca83b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022344344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289546a7ac3c748909b3ca68c345ca83b\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Just to expand and elucidate, I asked a question earlier about the connection between the OECD\u2019s advice on foreign investment and productivity growth. The Prime Minister never addressed that relationship, but instead answered the question by talking about other issues, specifically domestic investment and human capital and their relationship to productivity growth. Now, it seems to me that if we\u2019re going to require the answers are as specific as the questions, she should have been required to answer that, but she wasn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022104655494ce24a59860b6ed2511a6fe7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: OK, the member will resume his seat. He\u2019s six questions too late.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223c91480e948a4d12aefed6768b703264\u0022\u003EPoint of Order\u2014Question No. 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022 data-id=\u00224a0625a15a014c6f8511793795411432\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a0625a15a014c6f8511793795411432\u0022\u003EHon POTO WILLIAMS (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order? A separate point of order, Mr Speaker. This afternoon I was asked by Chris Baillie the number of police that were recruited\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229f775c235494ef19d9237001dda8664\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Uh, oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227346182fc9a148f0a79d11afa71a6e7b\u0022\u003EHon POTO WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014in the last four weeks\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bf804f8684442a48603a7580facd8a6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Which member made that interjection?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae1379590df647f39d7334e129fc1998\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: That was me, sir.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc49443b2fbd457eacd98b9fb01b2f48\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Withdraw and apologise. I mean, I\u2019ve spent quite a lot of work trying to get Ministers to correct answers promptly. We\u2019re getting a Minister doing it and we have someone interjecting in a way which is not allowed. Withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236f30435e4db4f75aa4315045bbfd7fa\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8ff9d586e7840fd81b8ddfa7cb6f51d\u0022\u003EHon POTO WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Mr Baillie asked a question about the number of police that have been recruited in the last four weeks. The number he said was four. The number I have from Police is 27.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e281a85e9264b8eb1aec09a9f658909\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! No, no. I\u2019m not going to allow the member to come in now. The member cannot correct someone else\u2019s answers or questions by way of point of order. The member can, if she has the facts, use them in a supplementary question, or there\u2019s a number of different approaches that can be taken. That was disorderly. The Minister will stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bde8f6c04c7849bb9f397c0d6352b14a\u0022\u003EHon POTO WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002269144b937dc345e89278b9141a5fd8aa\u0022\u003ERequest for Speaker\u2019s Ruling\u2014Supplementary Questions, Prefatory Comments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00225fbdfa418c264d02adb071004426da2b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225fbdfa418c264d02adb071004426da2b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have a point of order from the Hon Michael Woodhouse participating remotely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u00220814e7264cdc4baca080de11098ecdd6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220814e7264cdc4baca080de11098ecdd6\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National) (remote):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you, Mr Speaker. When you review question time, you\u2019ll notice that three supplementary questions in question three, six, and 10 all commenced with prefacing comments \u201CCan the Minister confirm\u201D or \u201CIs the Minister aware\u201D, followed by what Speaker\u2019s ruling 183/7(1) would describe as a question \u201Cgenerally not seeking elucidation but seeking to inject information or propaganda a member wishes to be heard\u201D\u2014and therefore is not permitted. The fact that there were three of them today suggested there may have been a change in that ruling, and I wonder if you\u2019d consider and advise the House in the future whether that\u2019s the case?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00223c67bb4fbc3747f6adbc93969a1c2f6f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c67bb4fbc3747f6adbc93969a1c2f6f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will certainly consider it. But I\u2019m just checking with the member. It was three, six, and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3a7d4fb2c70401ba3ce471c02f44264\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: And 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1061bd5f32b47728a5740a2c9e25921\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1061bd5f32b47728a5740a2c9e25921\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and 10. OK, I will have a look at the questions generally, and I will look very specifically at the questions that those members ask in the future. Thank you, Mr Woodhouse, for your advice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b1ba88c3ab774cce93b5c407d91756f8\u0022\u003EOffices of Parliament\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eb3c225411a14c1eaf9d060c07f13f04\u0022\u003EAddress to Governor-General\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022df4fed2f633f414b91eede00c1f0877b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df4fed2f633f414b91eede00c1f0877b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, on 14 April 2022, the House resolved that a respectful Address be presented to Her Excellency the Governor-General commending to Her Excellency the alterations in the appropriations for the 2021/22 financial year in respect of Vote Audit, Vote Ombudsmen, and Vote Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, and the estimates of expenses and capital injection for the 2022/23 financial year in respect of those Votes. The proposed Address is available on the Table of the House. The question is that the address be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EAddress adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022091de914aee34175982ab5dcc015c97a\u0022\u003EProtected Disclosures (Protection of Whistleblowers) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e59a37ae0c2a464ea5aae1a323078a42\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000247\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 5 May.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022626712e389e84759b26b019257032b5b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022626712e389e84759b26b019257032b5b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226997d99d806440ef995ca8efd1b0511e\u0022\u003ESimon O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker? Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00220c36cb6a0af4400489966a4548b03dfb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c36cb6a0af4400489966a4548b03dfb\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I believe, in the hubbub of members on both sides leaving with some degree of noise, that you might not have heard the National Party member calling for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0716517ee894439abab33933ab63234\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0716517ee894439abab33933ab63234\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I certainly didn\u2019t. But I hadn\u2019t quite finished putting the question, so I\u2019ll be very lenient and call Simon O\u2019Connor. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5e35133369d4a3ebbff1f8235f643ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5e35133369d4a3ebbff1f8235f643ce\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, very good, Mr Speaker. Look, delighted to take a call, and thank you to the whip as well. The hubbub is one thing, a mask is another, which makes communicating important. And I think that is even more important, as we just talk about protecting whistleblowers. Not that I have anything particularly controversial or insightful to share here today, but I do have a voice. I do have a voice and I\u2019m very, very pleased that that was not protected, excluded, removed, or otherwise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ELook, this is a bill that National is happy to support. Many of my colleagues have traversed well and truly the reasons why we support it. Look, fundamentally, the law is out of date. It\u2019s not completely out of purpose, it still remains\u2014the older legislation that is\u2014somewhat fit for purpose. But as we know, particularly as we get older, one needs to work a little bit harder at things. And so this Government tidying up the bill, making it fitter, stronger, more relevant, more modern is a very, very positive move.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ELook, what it\u2019s going to enable is\u2014across various sectors in society, including the public sector, but not exclusively\u2014a much simpler way of engaging around what we term whistleblowing. Now, let\u2019s be really clear, the law is not going to allow, I think fortunately, vexatious, ongoing\u2014I suppose that\u2019s a tautology. It\u2019s not going to enable continuous campaigning for the sake of it. I know there\u2019s been various debates in the House as the law has progressed to whether or not it should be much, much broader in scope and the flexibility of who can speak and what they can say, but I think, again, on this side of the House, we\u2019re relatively happy where the law has landed. Fundamentally, that\u2019s to allow someone who has serious concerns about the conduct within their workplace or a piece of policy or otherwise to raise that safely. So that\u2019s the first, I suppose, critical element here, that someone who is a whistleblower will be protected. I think that\u2019s probably a message that will be repeated if there are more speeches, one hopes optimistically. That actually those who choose to whistle-blow will know that this Parliament, or the law rather, has their back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESecondly, amongst other factors of the bill it ensures there\u2019s a process to be put in place to ensure what is said is taken seriously. And those who have responsibility to take those accusations from a whistleblower seriously know clearly what they have to do, including, of course, protecting the person who is the whistleblower. I think that\u2019s fundamentally and critically important because, ultimately, at the heart of any democracy is a confidence in its systems. It doesn\u2019t matter if it\u2019s the Parliament, the judiciary, any arm of Government\u2014particularly in the civil service. I know different people have raised some examples, and it\u2019s not my intention to run through any of those in particular, but it\u2019ll be no surprise as, I suppose, a more modern society, when we approach more controversial topics\u2014it doesn\u2019t matter if that\u2019s domestic; one might even think about how COVID was managed, huge Government powers exerted over the last two years. It\u2019d be good to know that there\u2019s a law in place to allow people to whistle-blow, to highlight issues they think are problematic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EWe need think of only overseas jurisdictions, what\u2019s happened there, and even in the New Zealand context\u2014our geopolitical interest overseas and wanting to make sure that what we do here, information that\u2019s being processed here, keeps New Zealand in the best of light. So, again, a protected whistleblower scheme enables civil servants, amongst others, to speak up and again to be protected\u2014which I suppose is at the heart of the bill, because that\u2019s sort of in the title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ELook, I think a very good carve-out and a really important one in my thinking, particularly with my interest in foreign affairs and defence and intelligence and so forth, is that actually those involved in the intelligence sector, those who are involved with the national security of the Realm, are much more restricted in what they can and cannot release. There is always going to be a tension in that space. Just because someone is working in the intelligence or national security space doesn\u2019t mean that, you know, mischievous things may happen, but it does need to be a much, much tighter process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESo from my point of view, looking through the legislation, the carve-out to basically say\u2014there\u2019s a few nuances in this, but the carve-out to say that those working in defence of the Realm, those involved with intelligence and national security matters, are not as protected in this space. It is not really their job to be releasing information that is sensitive. And we have seen from overseas jurisdictions there are some individuals who believe that the information they\u2019ve got deserves to be in the public. I suppose at one level that\u2019s, I don\u2019t know, for their agency to decide, but fundamentally, it\u2019s not the moral thing to do when it comes to elements of national security, and it could apply here in New Zealand sometime in the future. But again, I\u2019m not going to name particular examples from overseas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EBut what has always struck me with these whistleblowers is they are people, if you could use the analogy, down in the trenches, which is well and good, but they are not the people who have the overall view of what is happening. And that\u2019s very, very easy, particularly in that space, to think that the information you have and the view you have of it\u2014sorry, not you, Mr Speaker, in the context of the people I\u2019m referencing, that they feel it\u2019s the right and bounding thing to do to release that information to the public, when in fact it doesn\u2019t remain in the national interest. And then perhaps that\u2019s the interplay here\u2014the individual working in the intelligence space probably does not have the overview of what is in the good of the Realm of the nation and hence why that carve-out has been used.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESo an excellent move there, but I think, as I said right at the start, incredibly\u2014well, actually that\u2019s probably going to overcook it a little bit; let\u2019s just draw that back. I think it\u2019s a good piece of legislation. Let\u2019s not get too exuberant or superlative. It\u2019s a good piece of legislation. This side of the House supports it. And finally, I think the encouragement for people is twofold\u2014ultimately, once this law is passed\u2014first and foremost to use it, but to use it wisely; it is something to be used to protect society, but not to be abused. So for those people who do have information which is important for New Zealanders to know or to provide a rightful challenge to the system, please do step forward, have confidence that this new piece of legislation is going to enable that to happen much more safely. And I do want to put that little caveat there: this is never going to be completely and utterly safe. There is always going to be a risk for whoever chooses to be a whistleblower, thus Parliament is just trying to make that a little bit better and easier. But do have the confidence to speak up. But in terms of that confidence, it\u2019s probably also, I hope, the intention of this entire Parliament to stress that we don\u2019t want to see a piece of law like this abused or misused, regardless of differences of opinion politically across this House that\u2019s still mine, that New Zealand is a great little democracy, that we are a relatively corruption-free society, that our systems work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThen probably the final, final thought is that ultimately, while we have a whistleblower piece of legislation which will soon, hopefully, become law, there remain a number of other avenues where people are able to raise their concerns, in fact even through this House, through various parliamentarians.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EBut anyway, in order not to protect the last 1 minute 47 seconds of my speech, I\u2019m just going to hand that over. I\u2019m not sure if I\u2019ve blown the whistle on that or otherwise, but I\u2019m more than happy to commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u00228b124a389353461ea2fc13e79dee4a1b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b124a389353461ea2fc13e79dee4a1b\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Noa\u2018ia \u2018e mauri. This bill is really all about integrity, reputation, and democracy. We\u2019ve heard in this House before that New Zealand always ranks really highly on the Transparency International Corruption Perceptions Index, and that is by design, and it is safeguarded through bills like this one. We mustn\u2019t take that for granted, because the Act that this bill is seeking to amend is now more than 20 years old, and it is really timely to make sure that we have the institutions\u2014including the laws\u2014in place to maintain our integrity and our reputation internationally, and to keep our democracy strong. And I say that\u2014and it sounds rather dramatic\u2014but the institutions of the public sector are part of those very fundamental democratic institutions, and it is the people in them who maintain them and maintain their integrity. When things go wrong, it is really, really important that those people have an avenue by which to air their knowledge or their grievance, and that that is taken seriously, and that there is a culture where that is encouraged\u2014rather than a culture of fear where people fear for their jobs or fear a reprisal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo we do need this legislation to counter corruption, to counter mismanagement, bullying, and to counter the silence that often happens with the bad stuff. We need a culture of safety, and we need a \u201Cspeak up\u201D culture. Even the fact that rules are strengthened and that there is a process in place, internally, in these public sector institutions may be enough to stop those who would do \u201Cbad stuff\u201D from acting in the first place. So we can see the impact of this law is twofold, really: it\u2019s around making sure that people feel safe and that they can speak up, but also sending the signals to the sector and to the institutions that bad behaviour won\u2019t be tolerated. And this sits really well, actually, with the member\u2019s bill that I have the privilege of shepherding through this House, protecting journalist sources. The reason I say that is because currently, with this particular bill that we\u2019re debating today, a whistleblower may be protected, but there would still be a gap in the law if they went to a journalist and the journalist themselves weren\u2019t protected. So I\u2019m really heartened to see this law alongside that one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThere is evidence, we\u2019ve heard already, that shows the culture in the public sector, that shows a culture of a little bit of fear, where people are fearful to speak out. Forty percent of all respondents currently in work felt their jobs would be safe if they reported the wrongdoing. But that\u2019s 40 percent. That could be significantly higher, and that was the Chief Ombudsman\u2019s commissioned report. Fraudsters can even squeeze out multiple whistleblowers. The research showed that whistleblowers felt they might not be protected, or they didn\u2019t think that their identity would be anonymous. So what this bill does, most importantly, is strengthen protections by looking mainly at the role of the receiver of the information, and it puts an onus on the receiver of the information in public institutions to at least acknowledge receipt of the information. They must also consider the disclosure. What will they do with it? They need to take it seriously. They need to deal with the matter, and they need to\u2014very importantly\u2014inform the discloser about what the receiver is doing, and provide reasons for the decision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo the bill also allows the receiver to take no action\u2014equally importantly\u2014and that is to counter vexatious claims, and that was something that has been levelled both in the media, and also at the select committee stage. We don\u2019t want to see vexatious claimants continually blowing their whistles\u2014it\u2019s a little bit like the boy who cried wolf; eventually nobody will listen to them, but it\u2019s very expensive and troubling for the organisation and for those who might be at the receiving end of that\u2014and so this legislation tidies that up really nicely. It also allows people to report to an external authority at any time of the process\u2014very, very important\u2014because previously there were limitations on what type of information could be disclosed and when it could be disclosed. Now, that doesn\u2019t make for a culture of disclosure. It sends a signal to whistleblowers that somehow, if they got the wrong time or they had something not quite right in their information, they would be rocking the boat, and that they would be punished. So this bill changes that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EIt also requires public sector organisations to provide support for disclosures, and that\u2019s important: that those who are going to disclose know in advance that they will be supported, and what will be available to them. There\u2019s a requirement in the bill that says that the procedures must be internally socialised, because part of that is about setting up that culture, that people can feel safe\u2014people know when they go into whistleblowing what they can expect, what the requirement is on the receiver of the information, how they will be protected, and that they will be dealt with fairly, which is at the heart of this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EIt also includes serious wrongdoing and extends that, and it includes that in the misuse of public funds and resources, and that extension goes to, whether in a public or a private organisation\u2014if it includes non-Government persons working on behalf of Government agencies. And this is just to better reflect the current reality where employment status is no longer just public servants or contractors. There are hybrid kind of roles; there are people who take on roles and do quite significant work for public agencies who are not technically considered full-time employees, so that catches those people as well. For private institutions, it\u2019s a light-handed approach and that\u2019s good. It avoids the pitfalls that have been experienced in Australia, which has led to inquiries into questions around the scope of the Act. But it\u2019s our view that the private sector would still do well to have a policy around this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThis bill supports New Zealand\u2019s Open Government Partnership National Action Plan 2018-2020. I\u2019ve mentioned the member\u2019s bill that I have the privilege of shepherding, but there are other things sitting alongside it, looking at greater transparency and greater engagement with Parliament, and all of this\u2014again, we\u2019ve talked about the culture of these organisations\u2014is about creating a culture in society where people are proud of the integrity of the institutions, and know how the institutions work, and want to engage with them, and want them to be robust. We can see from what\u2019s happened with the war in Ukraine the threat that robust democracies can have, and how important it is that we make sure that not only is our democracy strengthened but that people really appreciate the democratic processes. So we\u2019ve got programmes around engagement with Parliament, we\u2019ve got a Youth Parliament which is happening in July\u2014I\u2019m very excited, and I\u2019d like to do a shout out to Cam Fraser, my Youth MP in the Taieri electorate. We also have programmes that are looking at extending public participation in policy, so we can have the best possible policies as we govern, and as we hold each other to account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo the following changes were made at the select committee, and these are just some of the technical elements which were around processes for Officers of Parliament. As I\u2019ve mentioned, the meaning of \u201Cserious wrongdoing\u201D has been extended and clarified by the Minister to include health and safety, and risk to health and safety; disclosing to one\u2019s organisation; lots more clarification and emphasis on what the receiver should do; and also allowing for receivers to decide to take no action, but having to really justify that decision, so that it is fair to the discloser. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI agree with what Simon O\u2019Connor said about making sure there are safeguards for those working in intelligence and security information. Obviously, we want to make sure that security is paramount, and therefore this bill very tidily ensures that those pieces of information are safeguarded from inappropriate disclosure, and also there are strengthened protections for disclosures made under a duty of some sort. So those people who are required to disclose under a duty will now feel more protected and more confident about doing so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019ve walked through a little bit about the reasons why I think this is such an important bill. It really speaks to democracy, to integrity, to our international reputation. And that\u2019s not only at a security level, but actually for foreign investment. Those who would like to put funds into New Zealand, get involved with our country, they need to know that the institutions here are transparent, and are sound, and are corruption-free. So we want to continue to have New Zealand remain at the top, or near the top, of the Transparency International Corruptions Perception Index. I feel confident that this bill will enable us to do this, and I commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u00228c17a12bae82455fa9a09be70e8ef61b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c17a12bae82455fa9a09be70e8ef61b\u0022\u003EGINNY ANDERSEN (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare. Look, New Zealand 20 years ago was, very proudly, one of the very first countries to introduce a specially dedicated law to protect whistleblowers. That was the Protected Disclosures Act back in 2000. But things have changed and times have changed. It\u2019s great to have this bill\u2014which revitalises and modernises a law that is so important for transparency, for democracy, and for making sure that New Zealand operates in a way that is fair to all\u2014back in the House. This bill specifically repeals the Protected Disclosures Act of 2000 and replaces it with the new Protected Disclosures (Protection of Whistleblowers) Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EFor employees who do uncover serious misconduct\u2014and that would include fraud, corruption, and it\u2019s both in the public and the private sectors\u2014it\u2019s important that these workplaces have a safe way for wrongdoings to be reported. It\u2019s important that those workers, who deserve an effective organisational process as well as having those legal protections in place\u2014so making sure that we have a clear pathway forward, that all workers know where that is, and where those protections exist, to make sure that if they have that important information they can be forthcoming and provide that in a way that protects themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s also important to note that if we want to maintain those high standards that have been spoken about throughout this debate\u2014our high ranking internationally as being a country that\u2019s known for its transparency\u2014then we need to maintain these high integrity standards. We have to continue to work hard to tackle serious misconduct within New Zealand, and that\u2019s exactly what this bill does. Whistleblowers perform a really important function. They are critical to maintaining our public confidence in the integrity of Government, and business as well, in New Zealand. To have that function in place is so important in a close and tight-knit country like New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EInternational research that has been conducted has found that reporting by employees is the single most important method in which wrongdoing in any organisation is brought to light. So it is only sensible that we make sure we strengthen those processes and enable those protections for employees to be in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EOne of the single most significant hurdles that is in place for uncovering serious wrongdoing is the reluctance of employees to step forward\u2014to step into the light and to make that report. They either don\u2019t know the policy or what the process is within their private or public organisation and, furthermore, they fear retaliation\u2014what are going to be the kickbacks if you step forward and make representations against the organisation, against the Government department, against the employer. They\u2019re not confident that the report will go to someone in an organisation who is actually able to do something about it, and there is a general feeling that \u201Cif in doubt, speak up\u201D is not supported well enough. So this bill takes a step to strengthen that culture, to enable people to speak up. That ability to be able to speak up acts as quite a clear deterrent to wrongdoers so that wrongdoing is less likely to occur in the very first place. That is contributing to transparency and increasing public confidence in what we have in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EAs I\u2019ve already mentioned, there\u2019s been some research in recent academic work that\u2019s looked at several misconduct cases to try and analyse how things could be strengthened. The current legislation has come under scrutiny to look at the fact that it is not working as effectively as it could be and, in fact, it lags behind international best practice in a number of key areas. As I\u2019ve already stated, that law is now 20 years old and it needs to be updated. People don\u2019t always know how to use the Act, they don\u2019t know how it exists, and those practices are not embedded within workplaces and publications available to employees within workplaces. So this bill takes some very clear steps to make sure that those changes are made available and are widely publicised to those who may want to use it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to acknowledge the work of the Education and Workforce Committee, and that there were some really important changes made and what these changes are in the bill. The bill makes significant changes, not just from select committee but also from that initial bill, and takes into account the changed environment that New Zealand\u2019s now working in and modernises it. Allowing people to report serious wrongdoing to an external authority is important if they wish to\u2014if it is kept in-house, it is not always the most conducive way to increase transparency. But also strengthening protections for disclosers by outlining what those receiving the disclosures should do is important. So, once you\u2019ve handed over that information, it is giving that person\u2014the whistleblower\u2014a sense of security about what the pathway is forward once that information has been disclosed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIn addition to this, there\u2019s also some extra requirements for the public sector to make sure public sector organisations provide support for those disclosures\u2014that there are internal processes, that those who are disclosing information know where to go to and how to receive that extra support if required. Extending the coverage of serious wrongdoing also includes the misuse of public funds or resources, and that includes for public sector as well as private sector. It\u2019s important to note that this also extends for those who are acting on behalf of the Public Service\u2014so the fact that you are contracting in would not be a reason to be exempt from these provisions. That\u2019s important given the way that we use contractors, too, in Government and also in the private sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ERequiring public sector organisations to state in their published internal procedures how support for disclosers would be provided\u2014so that\u2019s made readily available. Also the bill creates a new schedule to the Act that named the most likely and appropriate authorities for a particular subject matter\u2014a bit of a map for knowing, if you\u2019re in a particular area, how you would negotiate that space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s incredibly important that people know where to go when they have information that is really important, that that process is mapped out. New Zealand has always been a world leader in integrity, transparency, and openness, and consistently at the top of Transparency International\u2019s Corruption Perceptions Index. We want to maintain that high ranking. We want to make sure that our country is renowned across the world for having transparency and having a high level of public confidence in our processes. It\u2019s good to see strong measures being made to modernise legislation in this space. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EAn effective regime for disclosing serious wrongdoing in the workplace is critical to New Zealand and to maintaining that high standard. This Government is committed to protecting New Zealanders who speak up about serious wrongdoing in the workplace, and making sure there is a clear pathway forward. This bill also fits with our larger plan, in terms of New Zealand\u2019s open Government action plan, and shows how we are committed to being an open Government that makes sure there are clear, transparent processes that the public knows\u2014we know that encourages a good democracy, a healthy democracy, and one that we are proud to be a part of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI commend the Minister. I also commend those who\u2019ve all done the work in the background from the Public Service to make sure we have a clear and concise bill that puts forward a stronger way for democracy and transparency in New Zealand. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002201360e4751b445f580274c7905bd1a4b\u0022\u003EPlant Variety Rights Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224b367f1affcc421480a1e59fd5851bad\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u00226c5604e3a65f47bead1d94310c112c82\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c5604e3a65f47bead1d94310c112c82\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Plant Variety Rights Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4a8578e9840474b8b7d43f8d672bd8a\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c16da030b984c52ae0950c1b50c83d1\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Plant Variety Rights Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EI want to at the outset of my contribution thank the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee members for their hard work in considering this bill, and to the chair, Jamie Strange, I acknowledge you across on our side of the House but over the other side there. The committee has recommended a number of important changes to the bill in response to the submissions that they received. The bill deals with a niche and often technical area of our intellectual property regime, but it\u2019s also one that captures a degree of public interest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EAt the outset, I\u2019d also like to acknowledge all the industry stakeholders and M\u0101ori organisations and individuals that have played a vital role in the review of the PVR regime. Your expertise has been crucial in refining the proposals that we find in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe bill governs an area of intellectual property law referred to as plant variety rights or, commonly, simply as PVRs. It\u2019s focused on promoting innovation and economic growth by encouraging the development of new varieties of plants. Many of these new varieties underpin success in key areas of the economy like agriculture or horticulture. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ed0921262a14952a66414f1a72a2eaf\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Or kiwifruit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b27f439e81142f099f62534a93e2d6c\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Our beloved kiwifruit, a good example\u2014a very good example\u2014whether it\u2019s gold or green, or even red these days, that\u2019s often mentioned. But there are, of course, plenty more examples of innovative new plant varieties that are of benefit to society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EAnother example I might perhaps cite just for illustrative purposes is that there\u2019s a grass that has been developed after many decades of trials that deters birdlife by lowering the amount of insects that are harboured within the grass. That particular grass has the potential to be used near airports to reduce the amount of bird-strike, and I would suggest that that is a good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe PVR regime needs to strike a balance between rewarding plant breeders for their efforts, because we want to reward and encourage innovation and economic development, but we also need to provide access to new varieties for growers and consumers\u2014so it\u2019s striking a balance between those different aspects so that society as a whole can benefit. Now, the bill strikes this balance by strengthening intellectual property rights to encourage that innovation while still freely permitting breeders, commercial and recreational, to build on that innovation and grow new varieties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EOn top of all that, what makes this bill unique, perhaps, is that it also recognises the kaitiaki relationships with taonga species and it protects them, should they be impacted by a PVR grant. The bill there has two overarching purposes related to New Zealand\u2019s international and domestic obligations. The balancing of these obligations around innovation and protection of kaitiaki relationships reflects New Zealand\u2019s unique position in the world and our unique approach to plant variety rights, and I think it\u2019s an approach that we in this House can be very proud of. Again, I do want to acknowledge the committee and their work to strike the right balance in this regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESo, first off, the bill enables New Zealand to meet its international treaty obligations through the CPTPP, the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership. That agreement\u2014the CPTPP\u2014requires us to align our laws with UPOV-91, the International Union for the Protection of New Varieties of Plants 1991 agreement. Giving effect to UPOV-91 will ensure our laws are consistent with international best practice and intellectual property law, and better reflect the realities of modern plant breeding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESecondly, the bill will also ensure that our PVR regime is consistent with the Crown\u2019s obligations under the Treaty. Ko Aotearoa T\u0113nei, the Waitangi Tribunal\u2019s report into the Wai 262 claim, found that kaitiaki relationships with taonga species are entitled to a reasonable degree of protection. The bill establishes a M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee, whose primary role will be to assess the likely impact of the grant of a PVR on kaitiaki relationships with taonga species. If the grant of a PVR is likely to adversely impact that kaitiaki relationship and this impact can\u2019t be mitigated, then a PVR may well be declined. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe bill goes further in strengthening kaitiaki within the PVR system than was recommended by the Waitangi Tribunal because this Government recognises the need to better protect taonga species, taonga works, and m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori. The establishment of a M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee with genuine decision-making power to protect kaitiaki relationships we believe reflects true partnership.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe select committee did an excellent job in scrutinising the bill, and I want to cover a couple of the key changes that have resulted. The first is the inclusion of a right of appeal to decisions made by the M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee. The bill as originally introduced did not include an appeal right, which meant that these decisions could only be challenged through judicial review. Instead\u2014and we think this is important\u2014the legislation will now provide adequate pathways for those whose rights are affected to challenge a decision made by that committee. The bill as reported back, therefore, includes a right of appeal to the M\u0101ori Appellate Court. This was recommended by the Chief Justice following consultation with her colleagues, the Chief Judges of the High Court and of the M\u0101ori Land Court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe committee recommended a number of other additional amendments to strengthen this legislation. Some of the headline changes include revising the purpose clause and including a separate Treaty of Waitangi clause to better reflect the Crown\u2019s obligation, aligning the definition of an \u201Cessentially derived variety\u201D with the wording in UPOV-91 to achieve international consistency, extending the term of a PVR for potatoes from 20 to 25 years, and adding a requirement to consult with Te Puni K\u014Dkiri before making appointments to the M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESo, in conclusion, this bill brings Aotearoa into line with the international community, it supports innovation and economic growth while protecting our taonga plant species, it meets our obligations under our free-trade agreement, it supports progressive trade that benefits New Zealanders as a whole, and, at the same time, it stays true to our history and identity as a nation founded on a partnership as reflected in the Treaty of Waitangi. So it is a real pleasure to commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022940db8ccf44c43db98b97530de0ba5a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022940db8ccf44c43db98b97530de0ba5a3\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00223e448f955f5f44e28d26fcb7b7880f8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e448f955f5f44e28d26fcb7b7880f8b\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to be talking on the Plant Variety Rights Bill in its second reading. This is my first opportunity to talk on this bill, and it\u2019s very interesting. I wasn\u2019t able to sit on the select committee, so it\u2019s something I\u2019ve had to pick up, and it\u2019s very interesting just reading the background to the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EAs anyone involved in the industry knows, New Zealand has been at the forefront of developing particular plant species for many, many years. We have some very fine scientists, and we\u2019re world-recognised for certain species. Of course, in my own electorate of Port Waikato, the Pukekohe long keeper onion is one such species that has actually lasted a long period of time, and, of course, it was developed by the growers of Pukekohe and is so-called because of its ability to last a long time when in storage, which, of course, now with modern methods of storage, is not quite so important. But at the time it was developed, it was a very useful onion variety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EOf course, if we reflect back to the sale of PGG Wrightson back in 2010, I think it was\u2014it is a very substantial business that most people recognise in the farming-agriculture sector as a company that provided services to farmers in terms of buying and selling property, cattle, sheep, and livestock in general. But the other, most important aspect of that business which was ultimately acquired by Agria, a Chinese company, was, of course, its seed business. When the takeover offer was made, people sort of underestimated the seed business and over-inflated the livestock aspect of the business. Of course, Agria bought it primarily because of its seed business and has subsequently sold it a few years later for about $400 million to a Danish company, and that just shows you the value of seeds and seed propagation and seed intellectual property (IP).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo this bill seeks to update a very old Act. It\u2019s 30 years since it\u2019s been properly modified. We will support the bill, but with certain caveats, and we will be putting forward Supplementary Order Papers at the time of the committee of the whole House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe bill, as the Minister noted, deals with the issue of plant variety rights, or PVR\u2014that\u2019s what that stands for. Largely, in terms of meeting our requirements under the CPTPPA\u2014of course, the National Party signed\u2014well, tried to push the TPPA, but the new agreement is called the Comprehensive TPPA\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e54fe5e3e85f40cfab8910d59bbf0f8a\u0022\u003EHon Dr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Come on\u2014\u201CProgressive\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244df3f5200a148b6910d2406e1a4811d\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: All right. \u201CComprehensive\u201D, \u201CProgressive\u201D\u2014there\u2019s not much difference. Let\u2019s just call it marketing, Minister. Anyway, our concern, of course, was that in meeting the obligation, New Zealand made sure that its plant varieties met the International Convention for the Protection of New Varieties of Plants, or UPOV-91, if you really want to know, Mr Speaker\u2014I can see you are watching very carefully on this. We were keen to make sure that we give effect to meeting those requirements as opposed to implementing something that is, rather, acceding to those requirements, and we think that in having that flexibility about what we do with the plant species that are developed in New Zealand, it is very important that we meet international requirements but we don\u2019t necessarily have to roll over entirely. It\u2019s an important point of difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EWith regard to the bill, it has some very specific issues that it deals with. One is to deal with this issue of intellectual property, and this is essentially what this bill is about. It is a piece of intellectual property, and I\u2019ve got to say that this is an area that I find that the Minister has not focused on sufficiently, particularly in the area of commercial intellectual property. This is just the question of plant IP: how we protect that which has been developed or is native or indigenous to New Zealand. What it does, like with music IP or whatever it might be, is it extends the term of protection for woody plants to 25 years and for all other plants, basically, for 20 years. There is a special carve-out for potatoes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221a9aa3678f34c4689ba5ac92cb649e0\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ec0ca65a69342bda074b5cb5c7b0ebf\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and of course, coming back to my electorate, potatoes are an important export crop, Mr Duncan Webb, and I\u2019m sure if you come up to Pukekohe\u2014oh, I\u2019m sorry; Jamie Strange\u2014you might find how important that is to our local economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s also an exemption for farm-saved seed, which is where you\u2019ve used the seed and a farmer is then able, as a right, to use it in the subsequent year if that seed is available on their property. It also defines what\u2019s called EDV\u2014essentially derived variant\u2014which means a new variant doesn\u2019t have to look exactly like the former species. It can have other scientific differences, but it doesn\u2019t have to exhibit the importin such as cosmetic features or how it looks that differentiates it from another variety. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo, anyway, the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee did a very good job, I think, in terms of working through some of the technical detail, and I think strides have been made in that area. But I think the main thing for us is, first of all, we\u2019ve got to recognise that New Zealand and its IP around its plant varieties need to be protected incredibly significantly and comprehensively. One of the issues we\u2019ve got is, obviously, with an industry like Zespri, with development of new plant varieties\u2014and we\u2019ve seen instances where the varieties have been taken offshore\u2014we need to be very, very careful, and I know my colleague the Hon Judith Collins is going to talk more about that. But we need to be going into this environment with our eyes open that intellectual property\u2014and it takes years to develop these plant species\u2014is protected and New Zealand can capture the economic value from developing and selling these plant varieties in the open market. So that is the first point of principle; it\u2019s absolutely vital that we get to that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EWe also have some concerns about clarifying the role of the M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee. The original proposal was a five-person committee. Of course, there\u2019s only five people in the plant part of the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment, so this is a doubling of the numbers, and we have some concerns about, in fact, what should be the role of this committee. Our view is that it should be an advisory committee. At the moment, some of the wording in the bill talks about it having a much greater role, and as some of the growers have highlighted, it\u2019s quite difficult to understand who might you go to get approval from\u2014this term kaitiaki\u2014and is it a hap\u016B you have to go to, or is it an iwi? What is the process if there are competing claims, and how do you go about making sure that you know that you\u2019ve got the right approval? As the Minister noted, there is the right to go the M\u0101ori Appellate Court, but that whole process needs to be very, very clear. It doesn\u2019t look that clear to me from my first reading, and it\u2019s certainly something I\u2019ll be asking the Minister during the committee of the whole House stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe actual definition of taonga and kaitiaki\u2014what that means. There\u2019s a definition that if plant species were brought on the original waka to New Zealand, that would form part of that definition. If they\u2019re \u201Cindigenous\u201D to New Zealand, what does that mean? Certainly, some species like m\u0101nuka have migrated and been hybridised over time, and so how do we define that, and there\u2019s a worrying thing that a lot of this is going to be written up. There\u2019s a definition and a list of these particular kaitiaki that are going to be included by regulation, which means it\u2019s not subject to House oversight because regulations are passed once the bill comes into force. I think just the general process around doing that and in going through that process, we want to make sure that there\u2019s absolute clarity, because we do not want our plant breeders to be in a situation where they\u2019re disadvantaged economically and cannot get the material advantage that has come about through their hard labours, and for the benefit of New Zealand so that everyone in New Zealand can benefit. This is about growing the economy, creating more jobs, and moving to a smarter environment. That is why this bill is so important, and it\u2019s important that we get all elements as appropriate as possible. Many thanks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022 data-id=\u0022d37a70a151d2487b8258d2778bca71ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d37a70a151d2487b8258d2778bca71ab\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE (Labour\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I appreciate the opportunity to take a call on this bill. On a probably rather rare occasion, I agree with much of what Andrew Bayly, the previous member, said, and I do appreciate his invitation to visit his electorate in the north Waikato region. In fact, I was actually passing through his electorate on the Te Huia train recently, and as I looked out the window, I saw the beautiful fields there. I\u2019m sure the member would like to join me at some point on that journey as well, which obviously passes right through his electorate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EI stand as the chair of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee, a role that I am certainly honoured to hold in this Parliament at this time. In that role, on behalf of the committee, I\u2019d like to thank the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs, the Hon David Clark, for bringing this bill to the House in a timely manner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EIn terms of the requirements under the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP). It was the TPPA; now it\u2019s changed to the CPTPP, but it\u2019s basically a trade deal that was signed in 2018 with a number of countries around the Pacific Rim. It\u2019s already had significant benefit for New Zealand\u2019s economy, and I\u2019ll move into that a little bit soon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also like to thank all of the staff who have worked incredibly hard on this bill, as they work incredibly hard on all the bills that go through this House. I know all the members regularly join with me in terms of thanking the staff at this wonderful institution that we have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to thank the submitters who submitted on this bill. It really was a pleasure to hear from these submitters. We had a very diverse range of submitters, primarily in the horticulture area. As we\u2019ve heard from the Minister and the previous speaker, there has been a slight change in the bill in terms of the potato area, where there\u2019s been a change from 20 years to 25 years, and that was based on one of the submissions. We had a submitter come in who brought potatoes with them, and, actually, really went into the details in terms of the R \u0026amp; D and the investment that goes into a potato. Now, I\u2019m sure many people would cook up a potato at dinner and eat that potato without really thinking about how much money has gone into creating that potato. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EAs I move on in this bill, I will give other examples of intellectual property (IP) and R\u00A0\u0026amp; D and how we protect those really important New Zealand businesses in terms of their trade agreements. The R \u0026amp; D goes in early, and often there\u2019s quite a long time before businesses can reap the economic benefits of that R \u0026amp; D that goes in. If they put the R\u00A0\u0026amp;\u00A0D in and don\u2019t have the protection of the IP, then those businesses will fall over. So it\u2019s absolutely important that this bill goes through the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EThe bill represents a new and uniquely New Zealand approach to plant variety rights. We\u2019ve signed up to the CPTPP, as I said before, and we\u2019ve already seen benefits\u2014particularly in our kiwifruit industry\u2014in terms of some of the free trade in areas like Japan, but what we\u2019ve done is we\u2019ve taken a uniquely New Zealand approach. We have fulfilled the requirements of the CPTPP, but we\u2019ve done it in our way, so we\u2019ve linked in the Treaty of Waitangi, some of our local indigenous plants\u2014we\u2019ve taken the opportunity to protect the IP around those\u2014and we\u2019ve done a few other things that are unique to other countries but we have satisfied what\u2019s required under the CPTPP. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EI\u2019d just like to touch on kiwifruit a little bit. Our kiwifruit sector returns over $3 billion a year through our economy. I was at the Fieldays around two years ago, and the next Fieldays is coming\u2014a little plug there\u2014in November. It\u2019s an absolutely wonderful event which showcases much of our agriculture and horticulture from New Zealand businesses. While I was at the Fieldays, I tasted a red kiwifruit from Zespri\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee4e3cb8ccc94c6cb4f3722279fe47a1\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Wa-hey!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202367f67cf674358a8f1ada38c253831\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and I acknowledge other members in the House who have also tasted one of those red kiwifruit. And\u2014[Speaker gestures]\u2014oh, there we go; even the Speaker of this House has tasted these red kiwifruit\u2014the reason I highlight this is as an example of what\u2019s possible in our horticulture sector and the value-add that we can add in terms of bringing money into New Zealand. Zespri\u2014full credit to them\u2014have done an absolutely fantastic job\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a48c609458b04b10b7c0cfa0dc20d68e\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: When are they making blue ones?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa0c194ea36c4a5c96d71ce7926bcc0a\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014in terms of developing\u2014yes\u2014red rather than blue on this occasion, Simeon Brown. But who knows? Maybe a blue one might come at some point. We\u2019ll have to wait and see. But, look, I highlight this in terms of the value-add and in terms of the IP. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003ENow, if Zespri don\u2019t have certainty on the IP for that red kiwifruit, then it begs the question: will they make that significant investment? If they don\u2019t have guarantee of that IP, there\u2019s a good chance that they won\u2019t make that investment because the risk is too high. So what the Government is doing here is lowering the risk threshold for wonderful businesses, New Zealand businesses like Zespri. So it\u2019s certainly important. For example, SunGold, which I believe is the biggest seller, returns $1 billion to New Zealand\u2019s economy every year, and there are many other examples right across the horticulture sector of this value-add. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003ESo, as I was saying, the bill satisfies the CPTPP. It makes good strides in terms of protecting IP and it does it in a uniquely New Zealand way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EInadequate plant variety rights legislation has been a problem for 30 years in New Zealand, and this Government is solving this problem. I acknowledge the support from the National Party, and, hopefully, other parties in this House will also support this bill as it goes through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003ETrade is the lifeblood of our economy. We are a small nation. The reality is, as a small nation, we can\u2019t and we shouldn\u2019t make all the products, so we make the products that we specialise in and we sell them to the world. Other countries make products that they specialise in and they sell them to the world. If we didn\u2019t have free and open trade across the world, countries the size of New Zealand would really struggle. Our standard of living would be nowhere near where it is at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to acknowledge the arable sector in New Zealand. The previous member spoke about seeds and the IP that goes into seeds, and he is exactly right. I think it\u2019s important that we continue to highlight this. Look, as someone who lives in the city, I feel like I have a connection to our rural New Zealanders. Both my uncles are in the agricultural sector; both have farms. I\u2019ve worked on those farms, and it\u2019s important for people who live in the city to have an appreciation of our agricultural and our horticultural sector and some of the risks that they take in terms of business. They are very dependent on the weather at many times and we have seen in terms of climate change some of the challenges that are coming, and, as a Government, we will continue to work with those in the agricultural and horticultural sector to support them. But everything that we can do, we will support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EJust touching on some of the changes that the select committee made\u2014and the Minister highlighted them, but just to dig into them a little bit more\u2014the first is the inclusion of the right of appeal to decisions made by the M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee, and our select committee felt that this was important in terms of fairness. We felt that there needed to be a right of appeal and we\u2019re, obviously, making that recommendation to the House. In recognising that M\u0101ori should be self-determining about issues affecting M\u0101ori, the bill as introduced did not include an appeal right, which meant these decisions could only be challenged through judicial review. But it\u2019s important for legislation to provide adequate pathways for those whose rights are affected to challenge a decision. The bill as reported back includes the right of appeal to the M\u0101ori Appellate Court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EJust a couple of other changes: revising the purpose clause and including a separate Treaty of Waitangi clause to better reflect the Crown\u2019s obligations; aligning the definition of an essentially derived variety with the wording in UPOV-91\u2014and, obviously, it\u2019s important that we are consistent with UPOV-91 to achieve international consistency\u2014as I mentioned before, extending the term of a PVR for potatoes from 20 to 25 years; and, finally, adding a requirement to consult with Te Puni K\u014Dkiri before making appointments to the M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EThis is an excellent piece of legislation. It\u2019s certainly needed, and in a country like ours, where we are so dependent on trade, this bill will support our horticultural sector\u2014our many businesses who do absolutely amazing work in the horticultural sector. So this bill will continue to support them as they trade internationally. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022fcb8421888f34612b113278d042e676c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fcb8421888f34612b113278d042e676c\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Papakura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. We\u2019ve heard a lot spoken about this bill this afternoon\u2014the Plant Variety Rights Bill\u2014and we\u2019re in its second reading. We\u2019ve been told it\u2019s very important, which seems a bit strange that we\u2019ve waited a year to have it come back to the House if it\u2019s that important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI was pretty concerned to get a message from one of our major exporters this afternoon about this bill. We are, as of course we all know, an exporting nation. Without exports, we\u2019d basically just have no money, frankly, but lots of food. We are an exporting nation of plant breeders who are developing high-value varieties, and we should be encouraging those breeders to do so with their low environmental impact and their healthy and high-yielding varieties, and encouraging investment and innovation and making it easier for them to be able to have these varieties protected and their returns generated. The comment was that this bill falls well short. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ESo Andrew Bayly, who spoke earlier this afternoon, and I have just discussed this, and neither of us were on the select committee at the time. We are going to be following this up and looking at putting in some Supplementary Order Papers in the committee stage of the House because I think the whole of Parliament should be on the side of helping our New Zealand plant breeders to do the very best that they can to invest in and to want to invest in new varieties. As we know, people are actually the key to so much of our export market. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ESome of us can well remember Chinese gooseberries, little hairy green things that we had to climb up a vine\u2014I know, Madam Speaker, you may well remember that, too\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1835ec7998946efa8e9edd243c22778\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Hmm, hmm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222457002502c944358568f4085eb88b6c\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and go and collect them and then stick them in a cupboard so that they could ripen before the birds got them. Thankfully, some very enterprising scientists decided to change the way in which that plant was bred. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ESo now we\u2019ve talked this afternoon about Zespri and the excellent work that they do, helping the economy and helping to make New Zealand a richer place, but we also need to remember that they\u2019re constantly trying to improve what they\u2019re doing and what they\u2019re selling. They are under constant attack from overseas. We all are aware of plant stock being taken, stolen, used overseas, and actually then used to undermine the work of our New Zealand exporters. So it is really important that we get this right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI think this is the sort of thing where we can take a pretty apolitical view on it, which is looking to see what\u2019s the best piece of legislation. So once I get some more information, I\u2019ll discuss it with our caucus and then with Jamie Strange, the chair of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee, and with the Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWe had some concerns noted by some of the submitters, and there were some submitters who were absolutely, wholeheartedly delighted that something was happening\u2014it is time for this legislation\u2014but they did have some other views as well. They thought it was very good to have the first comprehensive review of the Plant Variety Rights Act since the 1980s and to try and put in place some robust plant protection laws. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s also the issues around what is taonga and kaitiaki, and what should be included is certainly one that\u2019s caused some submitters some concerns. I think that there are some good points raised around knowing exactly what is included in that, and I think we should be able, if we\u2019re putting these sorts of provisions in place, with an entire five-person M\u0101ori committee when the whole of the Plant Variety Rights Office in the ministry only has five staff\u2014this is a very heavy weighting when around 7 percent of applications will, potentially, be affected by the Treaty provisions. I think we need to be a little sensitive to, obviously, concerns by M\u0101ori relating to taonga, but we also need to be very concerned that plant breeders themselves may wonder as to whether or not the plant that they are seeking to breed from is going to be covered by this or be caught up in any sort of legislative or bureaucratic nightmare. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ESo I think we do need to have some more clarity on that. Hopefully, that can be addressed in the committee stage of this bill, because, as we so often see with legislation these days, we seem to spend an inordinate amount of time talking about our country, issues in it\u2014those between M\u0101ori and the Crown and everybody else\u2014and have so little understanding that we are in a highly competitive environment and that our enemies are not within but are actually overseas. We need to very much focus on the fact that if we are going to benefit all of New Zealand, the best way forward is for us to be on the side of those people who are trying their very best to build our economy. We in the National Party believe that it is important that we need to acknowledge the M\u0101ori interests, but we also need to be very much aware of the commercial needs and flexibility and speed of decision making. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI\u2019m very privileged to have the wonderful portfolios of science, research and innovation, and technology, and what is really clear to me when meeting so many scientists\u2014and we have scientists in New Zealand whom we should be very proud of, working away, and also in the technology and innovation area\u2014is that whatever we think we\u2019re working on in this country, someone else in another country is probably working much harder with far more people with much more money going into it. So our people have to be able to work with absolute speed, and I think that\u2019s one of the concerns that we were alerted to by some submitters. It\u2019s certainly one that gives me some cause. Having spent now quite a lot of time with New Zealand scientists, it is just how fast they have to be, and if they\u2019re not fast, another country will have developed something, or somehow they\u2019ve got hold of that technology or that innovation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019ve got to be really careful that when we\u2019re trying our very best to make sure that all the peoples of New Zealand are properly respected and honoured, we do so understanding that the rest of the world is actually getting on and they don\u2019t care about us. They\u2019re not going to care about our wellbeing, they\u2019re not going to care about anything else, and so we just do need to make sure\u2014and I think that it could be addressed by a statement as to what is actually covered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWe all know about k\u016Bmara and we all know about various other plants. We need to make sure that we don\u2019t end up in having an enormous amount of time, hearings, and money going and working out whether or not something is going to be covered. Otherwise, we might as well give up and go home and give it all to Australia, because they already seem to have something called manuka honey, by the way, which comes from a place called Manuka in New South Wales. I thought that was a pretty dirty little Aussie trick myself, but it turns out they really do have it, and it\u2019s another tea tree variety. So we just need to be really careful with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m going to be taking some advice from the people who are actually working in science in this area and I\u2019ll put up some submissions. I\u2019ll talk to, as I said, the caucus but also to our colleagues on the select committee and the Minister to see if there\u2019s any willingness to just improve a few things there, because otherwise it\u2019s just going to be yet another bill that we have to fix up when we become Government in 18 months\u2019 time. Thank you, Madam Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022fcd65b15e70e4cdcbf1333256f23ef0e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fcd65b15e70e4cdcbf1333256f23ef0e\u0022\u003ERACHEL BROOKING (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Lovely to be standing here speaking on the second reading of the Plant Variety Rights Bill, which, of course, we\u2019ve heard has gone to the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee. They have heard the submissions and reported back to us. So thank you to that committee, their staff, and everyone that submitted. That is a small select committee, small but busy. They seem to have a lot of bills in front of them at the moment. I have not had the privilege of being on that particular select committee, but I am on the Regulations Review Committee\u2014like, I see, some other members in the House today\u2014and we did give them some feedback, and that was listened to and reported on in the select committee report. I\u2019m also on the Environment Committee, and I think it\u2019s with that hat that I am speaking on this bill today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EMadam Assistant Speaker Dean, I\u2019ve chosen today to wear my camellia brooch, one that was presented to me from you, because, of course, we are talking about the intellectual property of plants. I\u2019m sure that there are\u2014or I know that there are\u2014people in New Zealand who breed things like camellias and rhododendrons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ENow, this is an interesting bill for a number of reasons, and I\u2019m going to focus particularly on the provisions that have come from the Wai 262 inquiry and reports. But it\u2019s interesting because, of course, it is about intellectual property and that\u2019s always interesting. We are updating this plant variety right (PVR), which we\u2019ve heard about from the other speakers. We\u2019ve heard about the economic importance of having good regulations in New Zealand in this area and regulations that fit with international agreements. It\u2019s also interesting because it has some definitions in it, and one of them, at clause 31, is a whole section in itself on the meaning of \u201Cnovel\u201D. It\u2019s not a meaning of \u201Ca novel\u201D; just the meaning of \u201Cnovel\u201D, and there are a number of these very clear definitions in the bill, which I commend to the House because it\u2019s very good to have clarity on definitions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EIt also recognises the recommendations from the very long-running Wai 262 inquiry. There are explicit provisions on the Treaty relationship, and, as we\u2019ve heard from the previous speaker, the Hon Judith Collins, there\u2019s a lot\u2014and we heard it from the Minister as well\u2014here about M\u0101ori involvement and saying what a kaitiaki relationship is with a taonga plant species and if this relationship should be protected. I will go to that in a minute\u2014to those definitions of what a taonga species is and how that kaitiaki relationship works. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard from the Minister in the first place that this bill sets up a regime for these PVRs. So you can apply, and there\u2019s a process where your application will be considered with various different criteria, and one of those criteria is whether or not Part 5 applies. Part 5 is the part about these kaitiaki relationships and taonga species. If Part 5 applies, whether or not the M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee has said it can proceed or not will determine how the application goes, and, of course, they can also say that there should be conditions. So that\u2019s how those two issues link together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI wanted to first of all look at the purpose of the bill, because the purpose includes \u201Cto protect kaitiaki relationships with taonga species and m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori in the plant variety rights system:\u201D. That\u2019s at clause 3(b), and then there\u2019s a specific Treaty clause, which says \u201CThis Act recognises and respects the Crown\u2019s obligations under the principles of under the principles of Te Tiriti o Waitangi/the Treaty of Waitangi in relation to the law on plant variety rights, through the provisions of Part 5\u201D\u2014which I\u2019ve just mentioned\u2014\u201Cand related provisions that support the purpose of Part 5.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen \u201Ckaitiaki relationship\u201D is defined in the definition section and it\u2019s \u201Cin relation to a plant species, means the relationship that any particular iwi, hap\u016B, individual of M\u0101ori descent, or M\u0101ori entity has, or M\u0101ori in general have, as guardian, trustee, or caretaker of\u2014(a) an indigenous plant species; or (b) a non-indigenous plant species of significance\u201D. That second point is a very interesting one, because not only does this bill apply to indigenous species that we can think of\u2014perhaps we could think of the cabbage tree, which might have some importance. Obviously, lots of the harakeke\u2014the flax\u2014also have importance, but it may be that these non-indigenous plants can also have significance and be taonga species. So the obvious one that comes to mind is the k\u016Bmara. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThat works when we look to Part 5 of the bill\u2014so that is from clause 52. Then, at clause 53, there is more on this \u201Cnon-indigenous plant species of significance;\u201D and the interpretation in clause 54 is \u201C\u00A0\u2018non-indigenous plant species of significance\u2019 means a plant species\u2014(a) believed to have been brought to New Zealand before 1769 on waka migrating from other parts of the Pacific region; and (b) listed in the regulations as a non-indigenous plant species of significance\u201D. So it\u2019s important that that \u201Cand\u201D there does require these non-indigenous plant species that are taonga species to be defined in those regulations, and there are later provisions about how the regulations are made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI just note that in relation to some of the other speeches, we heard concern from the member Andrew Bayly about who applicants would ask about whether or not there was a kaitiaki relationship with a particular species where an application for a PVR is made. One of the functions of the M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee is to give such guidance, so, hopefully, that will appease that concern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EIn summary, this is a really important piece of legislation. It\u2019s updating these intellectual property rights that needed to be updated for international law reasons, but it\u2019s given very much a New Zealand feel and tries to really respond to our Treaty relationship and respond to that Wai 262 report by introducing this idea of the M\u0101ori committee being able to make recommendations or make decisions and suggest conditions as well, if that\u2019s appropriate, for where the kaitiaki relationship with a taonga species might have some adverse effects. So, for those reasons, I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00224e4fa0400eb44f0b9578740cd36db7a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e4fa0400eb44f0b9578740cd36db7a6\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe. Privileged to rise on behalf of the Greens to convey our views on the Plant Variety Rights Bill in its second reading, and what a privilege to get to do it after Rachel Brooking, who gave a really expansive rundown of what the bill contains. So, as with the first reading, I will contain our points as to the Green Party perspective on the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EAs all the speakers have noted, the intent of this bill was to ensure that the plant variety rights regime met our trade treaty obligations. As submitters noted in the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee, there are many interests to balance as part of this process. So I do want to commend the work of the committee in trying to balance the many different views, and I\u2019ll pinpoint some of the submissions that I think speak to our Green Party concerns, starting with Te Hunga R\u014Dia M\u0101ori o Aotearoa\u2014the M\u0101ori Law Society\u2014who I think gave a really strong submission around the fact that when designing such a regime, we need to be thinking first and foremost about our Treaty obligations. In general comments, they talked about how, unfortunately, this bill is inherently limited in terms of its ability to meet a true partnership until broader constitutional conversations are had regarding true partnership and the rights of M\u0101ori under the Treaty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EWhen the M\u0101ori Law Society was talking about Part 5 of the bill, they really encouraged us to be taking a broader look at how we meet our Treaty obligations, particularly in regards to how they thought the purpose clause had been framed quite narrowly, only recognising kaitiaki relationships with taonga species and m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori within New Zealand law. They noted that in order for us to meet our Treaty obligations in full, we needed to go way beyond that, and I think this is something that was echoed as well with other submitters. While many of them were encouraging of the Government\u2019s intent to update the regime and were encouraging of the intent to ensure that we were looking at meeting our Treaty obligations, people were, I guess, cautious about the fact that we\u2019re doing it in the context of a trade agreement as opposed to, first and foremost, constitutional issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThis was echoed by Jane Kelsey, who is a professor at the University of Auckland and a really strong advocate for fair trade deals. She really emphasised that there was an unwillingness from the Crown to take full advantage of the possibility to properly look into how we enable the exercising of tino rangatiratanga and kaitiakitanga over taonga species and m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori. In the context of this bill and in our trade obligations, it does feel, she reflects, that it is closing the door on doing proper justice on Te Tiriti, and so she\u2019s calling, effectively, for us to do a broader view and to sort of delay this process and take a bit of a slow-down and a breather to reflect on what it is that we need to do to ensure that we\u2019re properly meeting these obligations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ETe K\u0101hui o Rongo\u0101 also echoed some of these concerns, particularly, again, noting that this bill is not really reflective of an equal partnership arrangement between Treaty partners and, again, because it is not designed to put that at the forefront, it fails to acknowledge a M\u0101ori perspective on the natural world. They reflected that in Te Ao M\u0101ori it is not possible to own a species plant and they kind of invited the committee at the time to reflect more broadly about how we design law in relationship to our natural environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe Law Society echoed some of these concerns around taking a balanced approach to the interests of kaitiaki and breeders recommended by the Waitangi Tribunal. I want to note that the Waitangi Tribunal did find that even though the trade agreement that we\u2019re trying to kind of meet the obligations of contains a Treaty protection clause, this was insufficient to protect M\u0101ori rights and our obligations pursuant to Te Tiriti. So I think there\u2019s a lot left to be desired around how we\u2019re designing this legislation. I think it is putting trade interests above broader constitutional conversations we should be having that are really, really, really important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo what we would encourage the Government to do is take a step back and look at what broader consultation and work we can do to genuinely put our Te Tiriti obligations first and foremost before our trade obligations, because, ultimately, if we are thinking in that framework, then in the way that we engage in trade, unfortunately, we\u2019ll be putting those interests before deals that we\u2019ve made that don\u2019t reflect the other pieces of work in Government to move towards a more Te Tiriti - centred way of working. So for that reason, the Green Party won\u2019t be supporting this bill at second reading, and we look forward to the contributions from the rest of the speakers in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u0022b87abcdee6f34467bd4704a36d34b822\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b87abcdee6f34467bd4704a36d34b822\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise on behalf of the ACT Party to speak to the Plant Variety Rights Bill. I just want to note the previous remarks from my Green colleague where he noted that the Treaty obligations should be in front of trade. I find that a striking indictment, given that we are a primary-producing country at the bottom of the world with about $50 billion - odd worth of product that goes north of here, so how you balance that view I\u2019m not quite sure to be quite honest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EBut none the less, the plant varieties bill speaks to acceding to the International Convention for the Protection of New Varieties of Plants (UPOV-91). I think we\u2019re all cognisant of the importance of staying in line with our trading partners, and I\u2019ll name a few. Just for the sake of the House, I wasn\u2019t in the select committee that sat through the first submission process so I\u2019m not intimately versed, but I will go back and name a few of the countries. I believe it was South Korea, Australia, Russia, Canada, USA, and others that have acceded to UPOV-91, and we are arguably outdated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EIt came to my attention through talking to some interest groups that did speak to the concern of what the plant varieties legislation meant for them that there had actually been no cost-benefit analysis done by the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment in regards to what ultimately this piece of legislation would bring to industry in terms of additional cost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EJust quickly, for the sake of the House, ACT does support this bill in the second reading. But there are reservations in it\u2014and let\u2019s just go back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EThe International Union for the Protection of New Varieties of Plants (UPOV) is an inter-governmental organisation based in Geneva, and the mission of UPOV, which currently has 77 member States, is to provide and promote an effective system. So I think we all agree on how deeply important it is to protect intellectual property (IP) to create an environment in New Zealand that those that come to New Zealand to invest in IP have the protective mechanisms and frameworks to support that investment. Seventy percent of the plant varieties sanctioned for investment here in New Zealand come from offshore and there are\u2014as you can imagine\u2014for many, many international partners that would choose to invest in that technology in New Zealand a degree of reservation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EAs you can imagine, the ACT Party\u2014and I think this was canvassed by our National colleagues earlier\u2014highlighted concerns about the commitment to adhere to the Treaty elements in the legislation. Now, this is not that we have umbrage with New Zealand\u2019s adhering to our Treaty obligations. Where the issue comes in is that there is a designation for a plant varieties committee that speaks to taonga and kaitiaki and the likes. When we are making determination of what is taonga species\u2014and I just want to mention the previous member Rachel Brooking, who brought up k\u016Bmaras. I live in Northland. I\u2019ve been there for 33 years, and I see k\u016Bmaras going in the ground every spring and coming out in early summer. I can also tell this House the amount of investment in technology\u2014IP in this instance\u2014that has gone into that industry has by virtue had significant investment. A lot of it has actually come from overseas. I know a lot of growers in Northland travel overseas routinely seeking to get better hybrids and better hybrid technology, and by virtue of that are investing significant money doing so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EWhen we talk to what the plant varieties committee will do and what it will mean for those that seek to invest in plant varieties and IP and the technology there in New Zealand, I think it\u2019s important we actually engage in the discussion of what their role is, and I\u2019ll just quote verbatim a couple of parts. In Part 5, I believe it is, clause 56: \u201CThe functions of the M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee are to\u2014(a) issue engagement guidelines and provide advice to applicants for a PVR and kaitiaki:\u201D. Well, that\u2019s fine and we take no umbrage with that, until you\u2019re an investor, and we are deeply concerned that the kind of language that this committee is emboldened to engage in will stifle and mitigate those that have a desire to invest in IP here in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EI mean, how do you determine that? The fact is that there are five people on that committee, the same number of people as was aforementioned in the industry, and it references that taonga species must be clearly defined. Well, that\u2019s interesting when we have 70 percent of the technology coming from offshore.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EA couple of the things that submitters raised with me after the fact\u2014and I reiterate I wasn\u2019t on the select committee. Adherence to the UPOV-91 wording is critical. The wording used in the international UPOV-91 convention is replicated in the new Act. The draft of the new bill departs from this and has a number of important clauses which will not only create confusion in the international breeding community but may isolate New Zealand due to its bespoke wording. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EAgain, I reiterate the point that ACT does support this bill, but it seems that it needs to go through further consideration\u2014go back to select committee, have the kinks ironed out. There is every reason to support those that invest in this kind of technology in the world of climate change, and others\u2014in the horticultural industry especially. It\u2019s deeply important we get the framework right that not only adheres to our Treaty obligations but, equally, does not disincentivise those that would seek to come to New Zealand and invest potentially hundreds of millions, if not billions, of dollars in their IP here for development. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EACT will support the bill with reservations and, alongside our National Party colleagues, we\u2019ll be tabling Supplementary Order Papers to square away our concerns. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022 data-id=\u002261748e67513042adb1efc4b95859f5e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261748e67513042adb1efc4b95859f5e2\u0022\u003ENAISI CHEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise today not only as a member of the Labour Party but also a proud member of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee. Just for the benefit of the member Mark Cameron, who has just resumed his seat, I\u2019d like to relay back to the House of all the process\u2014the painstaking process\u2014that we have gone through during the select committee process to actually consider all of the details that the member has just mentioned and has just questioned. I just wanted to start off by thanking not only my colleagues on the select committee and our chair, Jamie Strange, but also every single submitter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EMy relationship with this bill started at Fieldays last year. For the very first time, I had people come up to me\u2014I might say it\u2019s in the member Angie Warren-Clark\u2019s electorate, right? Yeah, your people in your electorate came up to us during Fieldays and really passionately expressed their opinions on this bill. So I still remember that that started way before it had even gotten to the select committee process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EBut I thank every single submitter to the select committee. We had lawyers and people who are very, very experienced in dealing with the International Union for the Protection of New Varieties of Plants (UPOV) and the Plant Variety Rights Bill\u2014sorry, the Act, the one that we had previously. We had, obviously, growers, we had investors, we had exporters, and we had different types of farmers as well. All these people came to our select committee to give us their opinions from the ground, grassroot-based and reality-based, and their suggestions on how we could improve this bill, and improve this bill we did. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EI think the legislative process for this bill was one of the ones that I remember most vividly, because for the very first time there were submitters who actually brought packets of seeds into the select committee room to make sure that we knew what we were talking about. We were actually legislating for plant varieties and we actually got to see the things that we were impacting\u2014they were bags of seeds. But, actually, bags of seeds were probably the least of our\u2014I think we all kind of knew. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EBut I just want to turn the House\u2019s attention to the topic of potatoes. Now, do members in this House know that potatoes don\u2019t grow from seeds? That was probably something that I didn\u2019t think about before I had started on this legislative process for this bill. Potatoes grow from potatoes, so when we had mentioned the word \u201Cseed\u201D in the Plant Variety Rights Bill, there were submitters\u2014potato growers\u2014who had come into the select committee room to remind us, or to make sure that we had not only legislated for seeds but also potatoes, because, obviously, seeds don\u2019t actually cover potatoes, and, gosh, potatoes are so important to the New Zealand diet, aren\u2019t they? We have all these different types of varieties of potatoes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226be84a38fe1943d19c2d10048a27d627\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Hot chips, potato chips.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222afe5c52fc8b43b69da39f1ace324f12\u0022\u003ENAISI CHEN\u003C/span\u003E: Hot chips, that\u2019s right\u2014for roast, for mash, and all the different consistencies, the taste, the colour. So we have to make sure that we have a robust enough bill to make sure that we protect all of that intellectual property to make sure that in our economy, whatever we\u2019re exporting or importing into New Zealand, we uphold the vigorous protection of our intellectual property of all these different types of plants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EAlso, one submitter that I remember very fondly told us the process, the love, and the labour that they have to go through in terms of actually getting a plant variety right registered. We heard from them that understanding a development of any new variety could take up to decades, and that new technology actually would accelerate the development. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EAlso, the level of investment now in modern-day New Zealand is actually really high. So the reason why we\u2019re supporting this bill is because this bill will actually protect the hard-earned money of all of the investors in terms of what they\u2019ve put into our industry to support not only the domestic market in terms of our food supply but also our exporting market, which we\u2019ve seen has stayed so strong in these COVID days. We have really seen that being a real pillar of strength in our economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EThe reason why we\u2019re able to recover so much better from COVID is because of that strong export number. So this bill will make sure that we have a good enough system for us to protect the money of our investors in the industries to ensure that our exporters stay strong, and also for us to meet our international obligations under the International Union for the Protection of New Varieties of Plants to make sure that we have aligned ourselves with our international partners so that if they have registered their plant variety right here in New Zealand, they will be afforded the similar levels of protections across the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EDuring the select committee process, we had also thought very, very deeply about whether we should be following the Australian model or the European model, knowing that there is a bit of difference currently. But we had a tip-off from one of our experts, actually, that the Australians would be changing their approach as well, so that\u2019s something that I do look forward to a bit more progress in this space as we go through our legislative process as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EWe also, as a select committee, looked at the appeals process for the M\u0101ori side\u2014for our commitment to the Treaty as well. So I\u2019m very happy, as a member of the select committee, that we were able to implement the new M\u0101ori Appellate Court to be able to have their rights of appeal through this process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003ESo, through and through, I thank my colleagues on that select committee for the thorough work that we\u2019ve done in terms of our part of this process, and I do look forward to seeing this bill go through the House. So I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4c07ad11f9746889895f9f796e4c843\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4c07ad11f9746889895f9f796e4c843\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise as the member for Southland in the second reading of the Plant Variety Rights Bill. National supports this bill. This bill replaces the Plant Variety Rights Act 1987, which is now over 30 years old\u2014older than some members in this House\u2014and has not kept up with changes in the plant breeding industry. The bill implements an updated regime for plant variety rights. It expands the protection provided to plant breeders in a number of key areas to better safeguard intellectual property rights for new plant varieties. This includes providing protection to, essentially, diverse and dependent varieties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThe more than three-decade-old Plant Variety Rights Act is no longer fit for purpose. Reform was attempted in 2005, but didn\u2019t materialise. The current system means that New Zealand is an outlier relative to our key trading partners, being Australia, Canada, the EU, Japan, and the US, who are all parties to the International Convention for the Protection of New Varieties of Plants. Aligning our legislation with the International Convention for the Protection of New Varieties of Plants will give plant breeders a predictable and strengthened intellectual property rights system in order to continue to invest in and provide improved crop varieties for the benefit of New Zealand farmers and our country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThere are many significant benefits of gaining improved access to new and innovative products across the pastoral, arable, and horticulture sectors, where New Zealand has important domestic and, particularly, export markets. It\u2019s hard to imagine a situation where plant breeders aren\u2019t able to secure strong legal protections for their plant intellectual property rights and to obtain a sufficient return on the investment. This would potentially result in some breeders questioning whether to bring their plant varieties to New Zealand or to continue their local research and development, which wouldn\u2019t be beneficial for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EAccording to the New Zealand Plant Breeding and Research Association\u2019s submission, New Zealand companies collectively spend over $35 million annually on plant breeding activities. Plant breeding involves a considerable investment of time and resources. It typically takes around 10 years and millions of dollars to develop a new variety for market. Moreover, when breeders start to develop a new variety, they rely on long-term assumptions about what farmers need and what end users such as food and beverage processors, feed manufacturers, etc., will want in 15 to 20 years\u2019 time from now. They factor in a range of assumptions about future needs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThis all means that this bill\u2019s updated and strengthened plant variety laws are necessary for New Zealand to remain competitive with our overseas markets. Aligning our plant variety laws with the International Convention for the Protection of New Varieties of Plants will help planning for plant breeding in New Zealand for the long term and incentivise the development and release of new cultivars for farmers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EOn this point, I refer to KPMG\u2019s 2021 Agribusiness Agenda report, which was issued at Fieldays last year. That report noted, \u201Cwithout the right [plant] varieties it does not matter how much land is planted, [New Zealand] will never create the premiums we are looking for.\u201D That report also noted that we need the right legislative protections surrounding plant variety rights to secure the most modern cultivars. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EAs National\u2019s spokesperson on Treaty of Waitangi negotiations, I spent a little bit of time on this bill\u2019s approach to implementing the Crown\u2019s obligations to the Treaty of Waitangi in relation to the plant variety rights regime. The legislation will bring into existence a M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee. That plant varieties committee will consider all applications for a new variety where the variety is wholly or partly derived from a taonga species, and where the material from which that variety was sourced in New Zealand. They will assess the effect of the grant on the kaitiaki relationships, and, in contrast to the M\u0101ori advisory committee under the Trade Marks Act 2002 and the Patents Act 2013, the M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee will have the power to make decisions on whether the plant variety right application should proceed, which are binding on the Commissioner of Plant Variety Rights. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThe committee will also have advisory roles, providing non-binding advice to the commissioner on whether use or approval of a proposed denomination for a plant variety is likely to be offensive to M\u0101ori. Information relevant to the applications are: novel, distinct, uniform, stable, and denomination criteria. National believes, however, that the scope and function of the M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee needs to be clarified. We believe the scope of the M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee should be limited to an advisory body, as recommended by the Waitangi Tribunal in their Wai 262 report: Ko Aotearoa T\u0113nei. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThere are precedents for advisory bodies. M\u0101ori advisory committees operate under both the Trade Marks Act 2002 and the Patents Act 2013 to advise commissioners whether proposed trademarks are likely to be offensive or whether commercial exploitation of an invention proposed for patent registration would be likely to be contrary to M\u0101ori values. In Wai 262, the Waitangi Tribunal recommended that the commissioner be supported by a M\u0101ori advisory committee in his or her consideration of the kaitiaki interest. National believes the Waitangi Tribunal\u2019s recommendation is a more balanced arrangement\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00229450892844bd4ce8a73d05368c721e78\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229450892844bd4ce8a73d05368c721e78\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member\u2019s time has expired. I call Marja Lubeck\u2014five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022 data-id=\u0022d0ff5d76ded3421298c316ad5acc66b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d0ff5d76ded3421298c316ad5acc66b8\u0022\u003EMARJA LUBECK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s an absolute pleasure to be able to take a call in the second reading of the Plant Variety Rights Bill. Now, I was not a member of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee, which we normally refer to as the EDSI Committee for obvious reasons\u2014superbly chaired by my colleague Jamie Strange\u2014but I have learnt a lot from listening to the previous speakers, and quite interesting facts, such as are pertaining to, for example, potatoes, like I heard from my colleague Naisi Chen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EI just wanted to sort of go back to what this bill is actually about, because we\u2019ve heard a lot of facts and there are a lot of abbreviations mentioned in this bill that I will probably use myself, but it\u2019s important that we remember that what this bill actually does. It repeals an old bill. I think my colleague Joseph Mooney, the previous speaker, said it was 30 years old. I can\u2019t quite recall, but I think that\u2019s what he said\u20141987. Yeah, it must be a bit older than 30 years. What it would implement, then, is a type of intellectual property right granted to breeders of new plant varieties. So it modernises that plant variety right or PVR regime to account for developments in the plant breeding industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EAlso, as we have heard quite extensively from my colleague Rachel Brooking on kaitiaki about the Crown\u2019s obligations on Te Tiriti o Waitangi as well as under the CPTPP, the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership\u2014it\u2019s those acronyms that get me, trying to read through all the material. Of course, meeting our obligations under the CPTPP opens the door wide open to progressive free trade for New Zealand\u2019s plant breeders and gives them certainty that their intellectual property rights will remain protected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003ENow, the committee did a lot of work in their proposed amendments and made changes, for example, to clarify the bill\u2019s intention in clause 3, \u201CPurposes\u201D. Also, where some submitters had argued that the definitions were too narrow, the select committee agreed with that particular submission and made some amendments to clarify that the provision was not intended to limit the Crown\u2019s general obligations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003ENow, it\u2019s really important to support this bill, and, obviously, from the previous speeches it\u2019s clear that there\u2019s widespread agreement on this bill. New Zealand has a thriving plant breeding industry underpinned by a very strong and innovative research community. So what the changes will do is they will strengthen our local industry but at the same time they will make New Zealand a very attractive destination for foreign breeders that are looking to bring their investment abroad.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EBut having the uniqueness that we have here in New Zealand brings with it also certain obligations and responsibilities. So in addition to supporting the plant breeding industry for the benefit of all New Zealanders, we must also ensure that we do adhere to our obligations under Te Tiriti o Waitangi. So the changes in this bill will give M\u0101ori a direct say in how kaitiaki relationships with our taonga plant species should be protected within the plant variety rights regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EThe Government\u2019s goal is to create a productive, sustainable, and inclusive economy where the interests of both businesses as well as consumers are protected. I believe that is what this bill does, and therefore I commend it to the House. Thank you, Madam Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022 data-id=\u002283d5cdb762f4408f8009d0a8afa3b39b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283d5cdb762f4408f8009d0a8afa3b39b\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a real pleasure to stand and speak on this bill. I got to speak in the first reading of this bill, and as a result of that I was very fortunate in that BLOOMZ New Zealand came to see me and speak to me about the bill itself, because, obviously, when we sit in the House sometimes we get bills that we don\u2019t know very much about. So I\u2019d just like to do a wee shout-out to Louisa and Andy from BLOOMZ New Zealand, who are a local Tauranga business, who came and spent a good hour, two hours, talking to me about why this bill is so very important to a very particular niche community. So a wee shout-out to them. I\u2019m sure they will be watching because, in fact, they watched the first reading, which is often missed by a lot of people. So, first and foremost, thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003ESo it was not tongue in cheek to Minister David Clark that I actually did get up and say that I was really happy to speak on this bill, because I found it fascinating. I literally found this bill to be fascinating. It has so many facets and applications across so many areas in our community that, actually, while it is quite a big piece of legislation, there are so many things to talk about around this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EFirst and foremost, I do want to just acknowledge the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs, the Hon Dr David Clark, for getting this bill to the place that it is in, and Jamie Strange and the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee. So there are only five members on that select committee, and we\u2019ve heard from Naisi Chen and Jamie Strange from our side, who are on that committee. Their contributions, I think, were so much easier and enjoyable because they were actually sitting there in the process. So there were, I understand, 38 submissions and 20 of those were oral submissions, and I imagine they were quite in-depth because this is a group of really passionate, fascinating people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019re here talking about the Plant Variety Rights Bill, which replaces the Plant Variety Rights Act of 1987, and what we know is this is about the intellectual property rights granted to breeders for plant varieties. Now, I live in the beautiful Bay of Plenty, the home of the kiwifruit and the home of the avocado, so this is an incredibly important aspect for our community because we are, in fact, the beneficiaries in our community of an amazing amount of industry export that actually really keeps our community going. So what we do know is that there was $3.96 billion in fiscal 2021 in regards to kiwifruit. It was a record year last year, and it looks like SunGold and green and red are, in fact, again going to smash that last year. So it\u2019s really important for our community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EWe have this reputation in the world for high-quality, safe food, we have excellent growing systems\u2014I\u2019d like to talk a little bit about eliminating food waste, but I will do that another time\u2014and we have lots of novel products. So this is one of those pieces of legislation that really improves things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EThe previous Act was aligned with the UPOV-78 convention. So everyone has said it, but I will say it again: it is the International Convention for the Protection of New Varieties of Plants\u2014UPOV. This bill basically moves everything forward into the 1991 convention, which is the most common convention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard from a lot of people, and I\u2019d just like to acknowledge my colleague Rachel Brooking, who talked with some real authority about the Tiriti of Waitangi areas of this bill and how Wai 262 has been applied. So I don\u2019t actually want to talk on that particular aspect\u2014I think that\u2019s a really fascinating aspect, and I think we\u2019ve got the balance right there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003ENevertheless, I would like to talk about a couple of other things that haven\u2019t been raised today, and this is from my background of geese farming when I grew up, and also from my mother, who is a gardener. One of the things we know about gardeners is that they do cuttings and they do seeds and they do swapping and they do those kinds of things. Now, this bill doesn\u2019t apply to those particular private gardeners, but there is a very interesting test that does apply. It\u2019s the farm-saved seed exception, and I want to talk about that because this is one of those things we know that our farmers are doing out there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003ESo a farmer grows a crop, she harvests that crop, she collects the seeds, the seeds get kept over that winter period or over a period, and then it\u2019s used to be sown again the next year. Now, there is a limited life in how long that can last or how long that can happen, but, nevertheless, there is a carve-out here: an exception that actually allows people to grow crops and gather the seed and keep the seed. What the exception makes very clear\u2014and I think this is very sensible\u2014is that you can\u2019t then onsell that seed. You cannot take away the right of the licence owner to do that, but you can, in fact, do your normal planting, growing, and yield processes, and I think that that\u2019s a really useful practical application. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019d also like to, in the last three minutes\u2014gosh, I could talk on this for a bit more than that. I remember when BLOOMZ New Zealand came to talk to me and they were a little bit concerned about the loss of the Plant Variety Rights Office. So the reason they were concerned about that is that, essentially, that was the place that everyone knew where to go. So the rights office was going to be closed down and it was of concern to them\u2014and a concern, obviously, in the submissions that we saw\u2014that this was going to happen. It\u2019s a very small, little area within the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment. It\u2019s a unit within, not information technology\u2014I\u2019ve lost the word\u2014but it\u2019s a very small, little unit, and this bill is actually saying that we don\u2019t need to get rid of it. We don\u2019t need to get rid of this expert little area where we can actually go and we know we can lodge everything and we know what we can do. So that is being kept as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003ELook, like I said, I found this bill quite fascinating and I\u2019ve really enjoyed speaking on it. I appreciate the work and the submissions, and thanks to the Minister for bringing it to the House as well. I think my time is probably up, but I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00225b23d3a91f9c478a95cef6599c431f73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b23d3a91f9c478a95cef6599c431f73\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I don\u2019t usually like to start a contribution by agreeing with Labour members, but I\u2019m actually going to do that in relation to a couple of them. So, firstly, Naisi Chen talked about the importance of the potato in New Zealand\u2019s culture, I don\u2019t think it\u2019s too far to say. As a starchy, white matter, best consumed in moderation, myself, I feel I\u2019m uniquely qualified\u2014well, not uniquely qualified, but well qualified to speak on the virtues of the potato, so I thought I would chip in there, Madam Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c253e29766c744eea4f5aa1155babd8a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Oh no\u2014order! We can\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b3b4a75a61a4eecb77faef9fc4e0ec3\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s the one\u2014come on! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfb03914cac54b849a89f14f930f8328\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: No, that\u2019s too\u2014no. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c98cfade8ac641609835da04614491f4\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: The other member with whom I\u2019m going to have to agree is Angie Warren-Clark. She said that it\u2019s a fascinating bill, and, actually, I would reluctantly agree with her. But I found other aspects more fascinating than others, perhaps. So I\u2019ll trouble you to go through at least some of those in as close to 10 minutes as I can manage. My colleague and friend Joseph Mooney gave, basically, a 10-minute speech that he did his best to compress into five minutes. I don\u2019t want to lift the curtain too much on the internal workings of the National Party, but suffice to say I am going to give, basically, a five-minute speech that I\u2019m going to try and compress into 10 minutes, Madam Speaker, so wish me and everyone luck.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe reason that I do actually find the bill quite interesting at this, its second reading, is that it is at the intersection of a number of different other bits of law and other kinds of law such as the Treaty of Waitangi, as others have mentioned, and Rachel Brooking, among others, has given somewhat of a dissertation on that, very helpfully. But also I found really interesting the international obligations and the way that this bill interacts with those and actually reflects the way that they interact with each other.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo, first of all, I guess it\u2019s worth pointing out the overall purpose of the bill\u2014lower case \u201Cp\u201D. I mean, it\u2019s got a purpose provision, of course, and that\u2019s significant in itself. But the whole\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d3b07ebe2b04c5ca8bcd1e9aa43d79b\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Get to the point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a2070de32174ecabce0099492b32519\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014basic idea\u2014Mr Goldsmith urges me to get to the point. I\u2019m trying very hard not to, Mr Goldsmith, in the way that a bad lawyer can delay a trial by weeks, and a good one by months. I\u2019m two minutes in and just sort of getting to the purpose of the thing, which is, of course, to update an existing bit of legislation, the 1987 version thereof: the Plant Variety Rights Act 1987. So it\u2019s in the manner of an update, and part of the reason for the update, apart from the fact that it\u2019s worth having a looking at something that\u2019s been on the statute book that long, is to reflect on the fact that that, in turn, was ensuring that we met international obligations. Those have changed, so it\u2019s appropriate that this legislation, in turn, also changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EOf course, there have been discussions and, indeed, findings of the Waitangi Tribunal that are relevant. The decision known as Wai 262 has already been referenced, so I won\u2019t go any further down that path, but suffice to say that there is a body known as the M\u0101ori advisory committee\u2014abbreviated to MPVC within, for example, the legislative statement and, no doubt, the bill itself\u2014which is established, effectively, by a recommendation of the Waitangi Tribunal in relation to that particular case. The other key recommendation which flows through to this legislation is the grant of a PVR, which is to say\u2014he said, looking for the acronym\u2014a plant variety right, essentially, and to refuse that grant if that would affect a kaitiaki relationship with a taonga species\u2014that is to say, something that has value or is treasured, I suppose, in that sense, in the nature of a plant variety. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EOthers have talked about what it means to have a plant variety, and, of course, not merely identifying or defining that as a \u201Cseed\u201D but as other sort of forms of plant as well. I\u2019m not a botanist by any stretch of the imagination, but I do recognise, of course, that that\u2019s important that we fairly recognise the importance of good coverage in that sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo the bill does a number of things that I think are quite interesting. One is that it encourages breeders to seek to identify kaitiaki and engage with them. My understanding, as best I can know without having participated in the select committee process, is that that should form part of the basis of an application and would be a relevant consideration in the way that that\u2019s viewed in terms of whether an application is approved or not, and that information is confidential within that process. So it\u2019s encouraging that relationship and encouraging that consultation, but it might be that, I suppose, a specific kaitiaki is not identified at that point, in which case, the committee would have the job of considering the impact if a PVR\u2014the plant variety right\u2014were to be granted, and the effect on kaitiaki relationships with M\u0101ori in general. So that seems the basic sort of mechanism of how that operates, and I think that seems pretty sensible to recognise existing rights, as I say, under the Treaty of Waitangi, but I think it\u2019s also worth talking about the international obligations\u2014so I\u2019ll do that now, with your indulgence, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo the obligations in the first instance come from the CPTPP, which is one of those abbreviations that sort of seems harder, if anything, than the whole thing. It\u2019s like World Wide Web, which, of course, is only three syllables, and you get www, which is nine of the buggers\u2014nine syllables, I mean, Madam Speaker, and for the Hansard. So under the CPTPP, we hear that New Zealand is required to \u201Ceither \u2018accede\u2019 to,\u201D UPOV-91\u2014to which I\u2019ll return\u2014\u201Cor \u2018give effect\u2019 to\u201D UPOV-91 through a sui generis system. So lots to unpack there, even leaving aside the split infinitive \u201Cto either \u2018accede\u2019\u00A0\u201D, but I think, other than that, it\u2019s probably not terribly objectionable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo the UPOV-91 is, of course, the International Convention for the Protection of New Varieties of Plants, and that obligation that we have to various other nations within the international rules-based order is given effect to within CPTPP\u2014which we all know so well that I won\u2019t bother to spell it out. What we\u2019re hearing there is that New Zealand either needs to give effect to that under the most recent version of that international convention, or to say that there should be a system where there is a recognition in a sui generis way. So for those who have enough Latin to have fudged their way through law school, they\u2019ll recognise that that means something that\u2019s unique or, literally, in itself\u2014a class of its own, I suppose we might say. It\u2019s somewhat oxymoronic because, of course, if something\u2019s by itself, it\u2019s not really in a class. But anyway, there we go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EOne way or tother, we do need to recognise this international obligation, so the bill does help us to do that because it\u2019s got a number of key provisions that reflect the strengthening of plant breeders\u2019 rights within UPOV-91. One of these is extending the exclusive rights to those who are given the right to include production or reproduction, conditioning, selling or offering for sale, importing or exporting, and stocking for any of those purposes. But it does actually, at the same time, provide exceptions for the rights of private and non - commercial use experimental purposes, which I presume is important in an R \u0026amp; D kind of a way, and it extends the terms of a PVR\u2014the right itself\u2014and that\u2019s consistent with the minimum requirements in UPOV, which I understand are 25 years for woody plants and their root stock and potatoes\u2014they\u2019re our potatoes; we\u2019ve been looking forward to those\u2014and 20 years for all others. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo, again, it\u2019s a matter of consistency and alignment, and I think that there are some pretty good lawmaking practices that have been reflected in the bill as it comes before us. To some extent, these probably reflect the work of the select committee. I think I\u2019m looking at the select committee chair across the way\u2014I am. I\u2019m getting a nod from Jamie Strange. He\u2019s claiming it, in any case. So congratulations to you, sir, and your team for working hard on this bill. It seems to me just from where I stand as an outsider to that select committee process that it appears as though there\u2019s been a really good, robust discussion and a constructive one at that, so we probably have in front of us a bill that is all the better for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo the public interest test for compulsory licence is probably quite self-explanatory. I wouldn\u2019t even mention it, except that I have, so there we go\u2014moving on\u2014but we also have got the repealing of the offence provisions in the previous version of the Act, and we\u2019re here because they\u2019re adequately covered by the pieces of legislation. I think that\u2019s good lawmaking to say that where in the statute book we\u2019ve got coverage and overlap, we don\u2019t want either duplication or contradiction between different pieces of legislation, and, on a similar note, to provide remedies consistent with other intellectual property regimes. So we are concerned about intellectual property, of course, and I do acknowledge, of course, that cultural considerations, research and development, technology, and lots of different public policy areas do come together. But at its heart, it\u2019s recognising the right of a person or of a people, again, with that tangata whenua element emphasised\u2014but it is their right to have a particular relationship, so to speak, with different plant varieties that we\u2019re concerned with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo there\u2019s a lot going on in the bill. At this, its second reading, National, as we\u2019ve said, does continue to support its passage through the House. I do commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022335486b6b96b4d7e99c57d630df09977\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022335486b6b96b4d7e99c57d630df09977\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise and take what I think is the final call on the Plant Variety Rights Bill. Can I just acknowledge our colleague Mr Penk, who has filled his 10 minutes covering Latin acronyms and then some. So can I congratulate the member on doing that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ECan I also just acknowledge the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs, the Hon Dr David Clark, for his leadership in this space in bringing this bill to the House. It is a piece of legislation that is seeking to reform a number of issues and matters of a plant nature that is 30 years in the making. Can I also just acknowledge the chair and hard-working members of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee. I think colleagues this afternoon have indicated that that is a small select committee, but no doubt it is a hard-working one, Mr Strange. While I don\u2019t sit on that select committee, I have had the joy and benefit of being in a joint hearing with the committee, so it\u2019s keen to see how collegially that committee works. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI see from the committee\u2019s report that it received 38 submissions and heard 20 oral submissions, whether they be from individuals, organisations, or other entities. So it had in front of it, as a select committee, quite a bit of information to digest and has returned a report to the House that has identified a number of changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EAs Mr Penk recently touched on, one of the matters for alignment in this legislation is that of an obligation and responsibility under the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership, and he certainly did a good job at explaining that, so I won\u2019t canvass that information or that area again. But in a sense, I guess, it\u2019s about ensuring that there is a sense of consistency, that internationally there are standards and there are protections, and that New Zealand as a country is able to have a regulatory regime when it comes to plant varieties and the rights thereof that captures and encapsulates that. That\u2019s the first thing. The second, in relation to the purpose, is that this bill seeks to deliver on the Crown\u2019s responsibility under Te Tiriti, specifically around the relationship when it comes to kaitiaki and that relationship with a species and, in particular, with species that could be identified or defined as a taonga species. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThis bill seems to me to deliver in that area of flora and fauna\u2014of course, flora, because that is, effectively, plant species. But I reflect on my involvement with the Environment Committee, and certainly there is much flora and fauna in that space and much biodiversity. I know and I share the excitement that our colleague Angie Warren-Clark expressed to the House this afternoon in that this is something that, effectively, got the blood going, and the juices flowing, as well, and I reflect on the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment\u2019s report on weeds, because that, in essence, was also something that was quite similar, actually\u2014and I look to my colleague Rachel Brooking, who plays a leadership role in that select committee. While we didn\u2019t have potatoes as a form of tubers being smacked on the select committee table by the parliamentary commissioner, the fact that the committee had in front of it seeds was, I guess, going to the heart of what was in front of the committee, both on paper and literally as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI have to say, I\u2019ve learnt quite a bit from the select committee and from the contribution of parliamentary colleagues today on the potato. I don\u2019t intend to go through or touch on any of those puns, but, as a tuber, extending the coverage from 20 years to 25 years identifies the complexities and some of the issues that that particular item has as part of this regulatory regime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI heard earlier this afternoon the Hon Judith Collins talk about the significance of research and development, and, in particular, the importance of innovation and research and development in that space. When I look at this bill, it goes some way to delivering on that, and that\u2019s really important that we do have strong, skilled researchers in Aotearoa New Zealand. I have to share with the House that most of them actually come from Palmerston North, because we have a very strong sense of research, innovation, and development with our Crown research institutes, Crop and Food Research, FoodHQ, and many others on the doorstep of Massey University. So this is really important to my electorate and the people in the electorate because it goes quite some way, actually, to underpinning that strong sense of research, development, and innovation, and that\u2019s an important part of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe bill itself does strengthen recommendations that flow from Wai 262 and that inquiry by establishing a M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee. The important thing, I think, there is that it\u2019s not just a committee that has an advisory power but it\u2019s one that has a full suite of decision-making powers as part of its responsibility and that its approach to making decisions is by way of consensus. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe individuals within that particular entity, that particular decision-making organ, would go about their business by consensus, and when we actually look at what drives the appointment process for those individuals\u2014it is contained in clause 55 of the bill\u2014the select committee has recommended some slight change in terms of inserting a new subclause (2A). That is where the commissioner\u2014and in this sense, it is the Commissioner of Plant Variety Rights\u2014is seeking to appoint individuals to that M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee, firstly, the commissioner must consult with the chief executive of Te Puni K\u014Dkiri but also, in appointing individuals to that committee, the commissioner him- or herself must be satisfied that the individuals are qualified. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThere are four riders that are identified in the bill that lead to the qualifications that must be present with the appointee. The first is that the person\u2019s knowledge of m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori\u2014which is M\u0101ori traditional knowledge\u2014is there, or that there is an aspect of knowledge in relation to protocol and culture or tikanga M\u0101ori; that knowledge of Te Ao M\u0101ori, or the M\u0101ori world view, is in existence; or, specifically, around knowledge of taonga species. But also, in making the appointment, the commissioner would also consider whether the individual has standing in the community and has the mana, skills, knowledge, or experience, to be able to deliver on that appointment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWhat\u2019s really, I think, quite important is that the bill itself, in terms of clause 55(7), identifies that the commissioner may not delegate the appointment or the establishment of responsibilities to any other person. So in that sense, that responsibility for how that particular organ would be constituted\u2014not in terms of legislation, but the appointments under legislation\u2014is something that the commissioner must make and take themselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI want to just also identify that the select committee obviously turned its mind to a matter of process, and that is that where there is a decision that has been made by the M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee, there currently, as the bill was introduced, was no right of appeal. So what the committee has recommended is that there should be the insertion of new clauses 68A through 68D, which will allow for appeals to be lodged, and that the appropriate appellate court is the M\u0101ori Appellate Court. I understand that that might be something that perhaps some heads of benches may have indicated is an appropriate way forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EMr Penk and others have briefly touched on the issue of compulsory licences, and that\u2019s contained under Part 7 of the bill, which would allow the commissioner to grant compulsory licences in relation to plant varieties. They are quite a distinct and separate licence in their own right, but they do have some overriding and overarching considerations that the select committee obviously turned its mind to. What the report from the committee identifies is the suggestion of some changes: that when it comes to the propagating materials and also the material that would be harvested, it actually shouldn\u2019t be the either/or; they should be both included in there. Also, there would be a number of issues such as the quantity and quality of the materials that would be up for consideration, as well. So that, I think, is a good example of the select committee responding to the submissions that had been placed before it and, as a result, presenting a report that identifies some good change for the House\u2019s attention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EJust in conclusion\u2014because I see that my 10 minutes is almost up\u2014there are a number of other recommendations that the select committee did identify, and I just want to circle back on one that I think is important. It\u2019s around ensuring that a specific purpose listed within the bill is that of protection for relationships but, in particular, the special relationship that kaitiaki have with the taonga species, and also that m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori falls within that, as well. So I thank the select committee for the work that they\u2019ve done and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002296513eaa6ddb47d8990f0462ba1e6d1a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Plant Variety Rights Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 107\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; New Zealand National 32; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 12\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000457\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000458\u0022\u003EThe result corrected after originally being announced as Ayes 108, Noes 12.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00222f530326f6804c9297c2fc2e87404027\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f530326f6804c9297c2fc2e87404027\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: I declare this House in committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f22105f78e8b4e7aad6a7be52d20063d\u0022\u003EHouse in Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221dcbc75267a24b6e897c8b3cea6dc5b3\u0022\u003EHouse in Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022abcebcf99b194a83b4b9ad71b5103c5d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022abcebcf99b194a83b4b9ad71b5103c5d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Retail Payment System Bill, the Crown Pastoral Land Reform Bill, and the Maritime Powers Bill. I remind members that they are able to participate remotely. If you\u2019re on the Zoom and want to take a call, please type \u201Ccall\u201D into the chat. You should also use the chat if you would like to raise a point of order. If we receive a new tabled amendment I\u2019ll advise members so that they can refresh the House papers page to see the new amendment. Finally, it would be helpful for members to ask multiple questions, if they have them, of the member in charge during the call. We come now first to the Retail Payment System Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226332b8f1e15a4647aa2da42a23ee7c66\u0022\u003ERetail Payment System Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002258974edfb1f042d8bd6b60743c3f987d\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228261b286e8924530b11782bf9e0701ef\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u00224875e64f859248ad80300d7cad7ec7cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224875e64f859248ad80300d7cad7ec7cd\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I rise to offer a few introductory remarks on the Retail Payment System Bill. Transactions, the exchange of money for goods and services, are a fundamental part of our economy. What makes these transactions possible is the retail payment system. These are elaborate networks that process different payment types, and the ones we\u2019re most familiar with, of course, are credit, debit, and EFTPOS card payments. The costs of operating these networks are, ultimately, passed on to merchants in the form of fees and then subsequently, in large part, on to consumers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EToday in the committee, we\u2019re progressing a Labour Party manifesto commitment to lower merchant service fees and bring them into line with comparable economies around the world. The bill does this by establishing a new regulatory framework for the retail payment system. It\u2019s currently unregulated, and I would note for the committee, as has been noted before, that New Zealand\u2019s merchant service fees are set much higher than they are in Australia, and they add significant overhead for retailers, who often pass these costs on to consumers through higher prices. So the outcome of this bill will benefit both small businesses and consumers. In fact, a conservative estimate has the benefit to small businesses at approximately $74 million each year, and, as I say, much of this gets passed on to consumers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EBefore I draw this committee\u2019s attention to some of the more notable features of the bill, I\u2019d like to acknowledge again and repeat my thanks to the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee for its time considering this bill. They have made some suggested changes which I will touch on. The bill is designed to address certain inefficiencies which are resulting in poor outcomes for many merchants and consumers. As I mentioned before, the charges merchants face for accepting certain payments are high by international standards, particularly credit card and online debit transactions. It just so happens that consumers are incentivised to prefer those more costly payment methods in the current retail payment system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESo competition appears to be lacking in some aspects of the market. The largest retail payment networks are dominated by a few large banks who service both sides of the transaction. They sell payment products to consumers and charge merchants for processing payments that use those products. The various participants in the payment network are often incentivised to keep fees high. Moreover, difficulty accessing network infrastructure is thought to be stifling innovation and the entry of new competitors. So I expect parties in this House that support competition will be right behind the changes that we\u2019re making here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESmall merchants are particularly disadvantaged in all this. They face disproportionately high merchant service fees and have limited bargaining power. On top of that, because smaller retailers cannot afford to lose customers, they are likely to feel they have to absorb the fees rather than surcharge or refuse certain card types. And, indeed, I\u2019ve spoken to small businesses who feel the pressure to do just that and are reluctant to call the banks out on their pricing practices for fear of retaliatory action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe bill\u2019s purpose is to promote competition and efficiency in the retail payment system for the long-term benefit of merchants and consumers. There are broadly three ways it delivers on this promise. First, it empowers the Commerce Commission to scrutinise and regulate participants in a retail payment network if that network is designated by Order in Council. The commission would have a range of regulatory tools to address competition or efficiency issues in these networks, such as requiring participants to grant access to essential services or network infrastructure. The designation approach allows the regulatory regime to respond to any changes in the system, such as new payment methods that may emerge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESecondly, the bill will more immediately reduce merchant service fees in the MasterCard and Visa credit and debit networks. It does this through an initial pricing standard that will cap the interchange fees in these networks six months after the bill has passed. I will note now, we thank some of the work that the select committee did on ensuring that that particular effect happens in the right way. Interchange fees are the largest component of merchant service fees and therefore have the opportunity to make the most material difference to the regime in the first instance. Those savings, of course, will benefit merchants and then may well be passed on to consumers. But it\u2019s particularly important for those smaller merchants who don\u2019t have the leverage and also those who rely on credit card or online sales.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe select committee, as I mentioned, has helped to ensure these provisions are effective, anticipating attempts to game the interchange fees by compensating card issuers, because we wouldn\u2019t want to see those interchange fee caps gamed in any way that might be attempted to do that\u2014for example, compensating card issuers for reduced income through other methods. So I do thank the select committee members who have worked on that and produced a more watertight way of dealing with what are called waterbed effects, as it happens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EFinally, the bill affords the commission some control over merchant surcharging practices to ensure they are transparent and do not exceed the actual costs to merchants. I don\u2019t view surcharges as problematic if they merely pass on costs. If nothing else, it makes consumers aware of those costs of accepting certain payment types. But surcharging standards will be used to ensure consumers are not harmed by surcharging in excess of the caps and costs that are in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EWhen the bill was read a second time, I discussed a few of the important questions raised by submitters\u2014for example, why do we target just the Visa and MasterCard types in the first instance networks in the initial pricing standard and why not American Express? As the responsible Minister, I\u2019m satisfied the House has now addressed those questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to mention one other matter that I understand the select committee considered in some detail. Under clause 24, the commission needs to approve substantive changes to an operator\u2019s network rules. The select committee considered the practical implications of this requirement in the case of Visa and MasterCard networks, whose rules are extremely complex and not confined just to the New Zealand market. In the end, I understand the committee was reassured by a few observations. Whether the rules in a particular designated network are subject to this approval requirement is entirely at the discretion of the commission. I note the following: the commission must exercise this discretion in accordance with the purpose of the bill, the principles in clause 4, and the criteria in clause 25. In practice, I expect the commission will be selective in how it makes use of directions under clause 24. Before making any such direction, the commission is required to publish its proposal and consult with affected parties. This will help it to identify any genuine practical issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EA direction requiring its approval of rule changes is just one kind of direction that the commission can make if it has concerns about the impact of rule changes on efficiency or competition. An alternative would be for the commission to require an operator to notify it of any rule changes. If a change then raises concerns for the commission, it could make a direction changing the rule itself after following the same process. These directions do not have extraterritorial effect; they would only affect networks here in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EI\u2019m confident the scope of these direction-making powers is appropriate. They\u2019re a good example of the way the bill affords the commission flexibility in finding the most targeted and effective way to intervene in the interests of competition and efficiency, and similar provisions can be found in the UK\u2019s financial services legislation and in the Financial Market Infrastructures Act 2021. The commission ultimately has no interest, let\u2019s acknowledge, in imposing impracticable requirements, whether for participants in the market or, indeed, for themselves and for the network itself. In any case, there are good safeguards in the bill to prevent regulatory overreach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESo to conclude, reducing merchant service fees is a priority for the Government. It delivers on a Labour Party manifesto promise and it supports the recovery of the economy from the impacts of COVID-19. Consumers expect to be able to use easy and innovative payment methods like payWave, and merchants want to accommodate these expectations, but the fees as they currently stand in many categories are too high. This has been putting additional financial pressure on small businesses, on small merchants in particular, and we know that those costs are frequently passed on to consumers. This bill will deliver a more efficient, more competitive retail payment system. It establishes a regulatory regime capable of ensuring the costs of retail transactions in New Zealand will be reasonable, both in the short term but also in the future as the retail payment system evolves due to the opportunity for the Commerce Commission to involve itself as appropriate. This bill will ultimately benefit New Zealand consumers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00225de4f814d2ea42a0ac27f4ffd3aa32d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225de4f814d2ea42a0ac27f4ffd3aa32d4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Before we continue, I want to remind members that we are debating Part 1, which is clauses 3 to 9 and Schedule 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u002219a5a0d68a574e47ae3ba6067b759473\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219a5a0d68a574e47ae3ba6067b759473\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Papakura):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, that was a very nice speech from the Minister. Thank you. There\u2019s a few things and questions I\u2019ve got for the Minister. So it is designed to, obviously, cut down the costs for retailers so that they don\u2019t have to then pass those on, but is it also going to be useful when it comes to things like retailers who now can\u2019t access banks during normal working hours, when they\u2019re busy themselves, to actually drop off cash? Because that\u2019s one of the issues that I\u2019m getting from retailers. Particularly in Papakura, not one bank is now open and so people are having to go to Manukau, and I think it\u2019s going to be the next stage that the Government is going to look at. Is this bill designed in any way, shape, or form to be able to be amended during the stages of this particular bill to take that into account, Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4fa64c6e4fd41cdbff8dd3cefccc9e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4fa64c6e4fd41cdbff8dd3cefccc9e2\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Just in a similar vein, I note that Minister David Clark talked about this helping small businesses. As we\u2019ve canvassed in the first and second reading, the economic or financial impacts of this for many small businesses is an absolutely small percentage when compared to the avalanche of costs that the Labour Government has imposed on small businesses, particularly around employment practices etc., which we estimate are nearly $3.5 billion. Yet this bill deals with a very small element, which is the interchange fee charged on transactions. So, in the light of that, the purpose statement in Part 1 talks about \u201CThe purpose of this Act is to promote competition and efficiency in the retail payment system\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo clearly this bill\u2014and we\u2019ll talk more about it when we get to the subsequent parts of the bill\u2014imposes specific costs, or caps the cost that can be charged on the interchange component of a merchant fee. But what I\u2019d like to understand from the Minister is, given the intent of this bill\u2014which is to limit cost and be much more prescriptive around who can be a network operator and the rules that must apply\u2014how in the dickens does this bill help promote competition and efficiency in the retail payment system? Because if you\u2019re a retail payment operator around the world, you\u2019d look at this bill and go, \u201CGee, that\u2019s a lot of regulation.\u201D Albeit we might be bringing ourselves up to other jurisdictions around some parts of the world, but I don\u2019t see how this is actually going to promote competition and efficiency. Because many people would actually argue this is actually not going to do that\u2014we\u2019re going to get a reverse outcome. So I\u2019d be keen to understand the Minister\u2019s view on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00225c4de25b927c49419c5c646551261989\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c4de25b927c49419c5c646551261989\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. The Green Party is supportive of this bill. As we mentioned in the second reading, we noted that the estimated $70 million in savings while not huge in the context of the broader economy\u2014what we want to understand from the Minister is whether he has an understanding of the distributional impacts of the savings. Who\u2019s likely to benefit, and just for him to give us some broader analysis on that to understand exactly\u2014you know, we talked about the regressive nature of how some of these fees end up affecting consumers. So I guess I\u2019d be keen to get his perspective on how he sees those savings being passed on to those who need it the most.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca6cf8724ad440e99f2983173aab1d20\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca6cf8724ad440e99f2983173aab1d20\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E [Member removes mask] Taking off the mask might actually help. Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the members who have actually asked some questions. This Retail Payment System Bill was considered by the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee and I\u2019d like to thank my colleagues in the select committee for giving this really good consideration, but as always, with select committee bills, they come in and we deal with it and it actually gets passed back to the House, and we move on to the next bill and sometimes you forget what the bill was about. So I had to go back to my notes to actually try and figure out what this bill was actually all about. Because, you know, sometimes financial things sort of go out of my head. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EBut in terms of the merchant payment fees that the Minister talked about, I think it might be really important, particularly for people who watch Parliament TV and who are actually listening to this debate, is to perhaps actually talk about what this Retail Payment System Bill literally deals with. I think when we actually talk about the bank charges, a lot of people would have experienced in their time, when they\u2019re either using credit cards or EFTPOS, that there are some fees attached to the services that they are wanting to use. For example, particularly during COVID, people were not able to use the insert option for the EFTPOS terminal because they didn\u2019t want people to touch them, so the contactless payWave system was used and that actually incurred fees as well. So the high merchant services fee that the Minister actually talked about is the interchange portion, which is actually the biggest portion in the merchant service fee that customers are actually charged, which is often what the merchants, as in the shops that we go to, pass on, because it is the banks who actually charge these things to the merchants and the merchants basically pass it on to the customers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003ESo, effectively, what happens is that the transaction fees are for the use and the, I guess, privilege of using those services, whether it\u2019s actually credit card or contactless payment, and it is literally passed down from the issuer, the bank, who actually goes through, for example, the Visa or MasterCard who actually provide those cards, and the system that actually provides the transaction infrastructure, effectively, means that us, the users of these cards, end up paying for the service. What literally happens is that apparently in New Zealand we pay the highest fees compared to our close neighbours. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003ESo one of the things\u2014I mean there are lots of things to talk about, but I think the Hon Judith Collins actually asked a really, really sensible question, especially because technology is actually moving. I would like to ask the Minister: is the Minister confident that the changes put into this bill will keep up with the emerging technology and digital innovations, including those we may not be able to anticipate due to technological innovation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3d59ff155ed4795b1e8aa681500e7b3\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: What a great question!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d37beda74f5b45d4be3e98b443366e85\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014yeah\u2014that we may not even think about today? And is this bill written for futureproofing to make sure that we actually look at those technological advancements in the banking services or transactional services that we may not even think about? So I would like the Minister to answer that if he could, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022 data-id=\u0022180e0e80195947508cf9b3d48ac3b55b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022180e0e80195947508cf9b3d48ac3b55b\u0022\u003EDAMIEN SMITH (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Minister. It really is great to see that the Labour Party is embracing competition, and it\u2019s essential, this process, to the economy and we hope to see more of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EBut, as we discussed, we still have a couple of concerns around the competitive landscape in this bill. In the ACT Party, we like to promote a transparent market with a level playing field, so one question I have which we\u2019d like clarification on is that the bill only regulates MasterCard and Visa, and not other card payment systems such as American Express or Diners Club. Just to declare an interest, I do have an American Express card and a MasterCard, but with an American Express card, as an example, there is a higher cost to small business. Leaving them outside the payment system regulation increases the cost to small businesses, especially if their usage grows, and it\u2019s not just one card but there are a series of companion cards you can get, as well. So we\u2019d just like to ask the question that the Minister will ensure a level playing field, just like other jurisdictions in Europe and Australia that have included American Express in their regulatory frameworks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EThe bill also calls out MasterCard and Visa for regulation where other existing players are not included in the proposed initial regulation, so we\u2019re trying to get the commission to make sure that there are no regulatory gaps and imbalances. International experience does show gaps and imbalances will be exploited, with potentially poor outcomes for consumers and businesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EThe final part of our question set is that the interchange flows between the merchant bank, the cardholder\u2019s bank. In other markets which have regulated a reduction in the interchange, it has not been clear that the savings have actually been passed on to the merchant banks or to other participants in the ecosystem. So actually being confident that retailers and consumers will get that is questionable, and in terms of the cost-benefit analysis, there seems to be a lot of money to set up the administration of this, whereas if you take the millions of transactions that are out there, the savings are relatively low. All of the main issuing banks in New Zealand are also acquiring banks, so they\u2019re all superior to just issuers or just acquirers. So the final part of the question is: what guarantees do we have that the proposed $74 million will not get stuck in the system and will get to businesses and consumers? Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022a40c6446b9cb435eb9ccf2b1ac7a684b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a40c6446b9cb435eb9ccf2b1ac7a684b\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E There\u2019ve been quite a number of wide-ranging calls so far. Many of them have offered some commentary on the general flavour of the bill, and very few questions pertaining to the part we\u2019re in, but I\u2019ll work my way through each of the contributors none the less. In answer to the Hon Judith Collins\u2019 question: no, cash is not a payment network so it does not address the issue that she\u2019s raising on behalf of her local constituents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u2014well, as he himself pointed out, his initial contribution addressed a number of issues that we\u2019d come to when we came to that part of the bill, and so didn\u2019t really address Part 1 of the bill. He spent a lot of time talking down the economy and not acknowledging the 5.6 percent GDP growth that there has been in the economy and the triple A ratings that New Zealand\u2019s had from the rating agencies recently\u2014something that\u2019s very rare in the world. The extraordinary leadership of the finance Minister, Grant Robertson, has to be acknowledged. As a result of his general negative talk about the economy, he doesn\u2019t seem to have faith in businesses in the way that the Labour Party does, but there we are\u2014that\u2019s his prerogative. I\u2019m sure he will raise relevant provisions in the other parts; he frequently does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EIn respect of Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u2019s question around how savings are passed on and, given the regressive nature of some of these fees, I think that is worth picking up. And the point I\u2019d make is that EFTPOS is free to merchants to use, including small merchants. Often you\u2019ll see with small merchants they say \u201Cno payWave\u201D or \u201Cno credit\u201D, and they apologise for it. It\u2019s because they can\u2019t bear the costs of doing business associated with those other networks. And under the designation here in the bill, EFTPOS will remain free. So actually one thing people can do to help support small businesses, which are often local or doing it tough, is to use EFTPOS where they can. Of course, payWave, in times where we\u2019re concerned about a pandemic, has its merits too, and that doesn\u2019t have particularly high fees. So we are regulating to make sure that they do not go higher. But there is a regressiveness built into the system currently whereby often those who are using those methods are, effectively, subsidising those who have rewards systems through some of the more sophisticated credit card networks. And we want to put a cap on that kind of behaviour, and that\u2019s one of the things this bill achieves, so I do thank that member for raising that issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EMelissa Lee suggested that she would in her contribution remind herself and the House what the bill is about, so that was most of her contribution. But she did ask the question whether changes in the bill will enable\u2014well, whether the bill is futureproof for future changes. As I mentioned in my initial contribution, yes it will be. And that\u2019s one of the reasons we\u2019ve given the Commerce Commission discretion, because there will be adaptation and new payment methods that come on to the market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EIn respect of the member Damien Smith\u2019s contribution, he raised again the question that was covered in previous readings around why we\u2019re regulating MasterCard and Visa and not American Express or Diners. The reasons have been canvassed in the House before, but I think it\u2019s useful to air them again. That is in large part because they\u2019re a very small part of the market. They don\u2019t charge interchange fees, which is the thing that we are regulating here, but they can be designated. The Commerce Commission will have the power to designate them if it feels that is becoming a problem issue there. But I would acknowledge as well, while the other cards have capped fees in order to be competitive in the market, those smaller players will have to adapt to the conditions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00224d25544e726942b7ad97f2e684e24106\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d25544e726942b7ad97f2e684e24106\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I see the Minister\u2019s starting out in the normal vein\u2014he normally does something very dismissive. So, first comment, can he confirm the annual savings this will have for all the small businesses he\u2019s reputedly standing up for, whether in fact it is $6 million a year, because the figure was quoted before. That would be nice if he could confirm that this is a $6 million saving to the roughly 530,000 small businesses across New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe second thing, in relation to my question\u2014it was quite a specific question, it was actually related to clause 3, the purpose\u2014and I\u2019ve read it out to him just to be very helpful to him. My question was: how does this Act promote competition efficiency? Not in the general economic or \u201CNew Zealand Inc.\u201D perspective which he responded to, around what Labour was doing to help New Zealand businesses\u2014but the purpose relates to the retail payments system. So what does it do to promote competition efficiency? I understand where the bill seeks to reduce the cost of certain elements, but that\u2019s different from promoting competition and efficiency. And how does this go about actually allowing other network operators to come into New Zealand and making sure that we are ending up with an even lower cost that is driven by the market rather than through regulation, which is the chosen method that the Minister always likes to take in relation to the financial markets industry: regulate, rather than allow the markets to operate more efficiently?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u00222f4fa176939042ca9de3700497872969\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f4fa176939042ca9de3700497872969\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I completely agree with my colleague who just sat down, Andrew Bayly. In terms of the purpose, in this part the bill actually does talk about promoting competition and efficiency in retail payment systems. But I just want to add and ask the Minister specifically: what benefit, what long-term benefit this actually has on the merchants and consumers? I know that, you know, when consumers go shopping or whatever and use their cards, they want to actually not have to pay the extra 2 percent or extra 3 percent that the merchants actually put on for the privilege of using the credit card or whatever payment methods. I guess one of the issues that I actually foresee is what it does actually provide\u2014long-term benefit\u2014for the merchants. By reducing the interchange fees, does it really promote competition for the merchants, for example? And how will this bill interact with the digital identity bill is another question that I would actually like to ask the Minister\u2014which is awaiting the second reading. As we transition into a different digital world, how will this bill interact with the digital identity bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00226b6f8c09a28f4abf945d638213bb79a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b6f8c09a28f4abf945d638213bb79a2\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I see the Minister scrawling furiously. I\u2019m just hoping he\u2019s got sufficient time to answer this question because I\u2019d hate to think that we\u2019re going to move through Part 1 without having a response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo on my reckoning, if it\u2019s $6 million saving per annum and there\u2019s 536,000 businesses, that would be a benefit of $11 per business per annum. But, of course, all businesses won\u2019t use these types of facilities. So (a) I really would like to know whether $6 million is the estimated saving and, secondly, how many businesses might benefit from this because I\u2019d quite like to know what the contribution\u2014given, as I said in my opening remarks, the Government has imposed $3.5 billion of additional costs on small businesses to date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u00220f46b25bbfb6433d88793ca89ff94d24\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f46b25bbfb6433d88793ca89ff94d24\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. In response to the member, I\u2019m not sure where he\u2019s plucked $7 million from. As I said in my initial contribution, the very conservative estimate is $74 million per annum\u2014a little different to six. That has been canvassed across the various readings of this bill to date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EI would also note that it falls very unevenly because it\u2019s the small merchants that benefit disproportionately from capping these fees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3ffbbc6800540b4b26d4c4db5877967\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: How many might that be?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af520388643d49fabccb7350f0261b46\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: As the member knows, a large number of New Zealand businesses are small businesses. But the access to priority, or lower, fees tends to dominate amongst the very large businesses currently. So this bill will disproportionately benefit small business, as opposed to the bigger businesses that the member might want to support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EIn respect of the growing economy, I mean, he will repeat his assertions; I\u2019ll repeat mine. New Zealand\u2019s economy has been growing at a remarkable rate considering the COVID period we\u2019ve been through. It\u2019s a better position than most economies around the world. In fact, many others acknowledge that; the ratings agencies give it a triple A rating for New Zealand. That\u2019s very rare around the world, but two agencies have recently given New Zealand that rating, saying that we\u2019re on very sturdy, sound financial grounds and the conditions for growth are there in the recovery from COVID-19.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe member did ask, I thought, quite a good question around how competition will be achieved. If a network is designated, the network can be required to allow other competitors to access its infrastructure and services. And that is, effectively, the way into ensuring competition through that mechanism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EMelissa Lee asked how the bill will interact with the digital identity bill. I\u2019d make the initial observation that that bill\u2014the digital identity trust bill\u2014has an important role to play in building trust in online services, transactions, and amongst our population more broadly. We want a population that can take advantage of the advantages that come with digital, and can trust and securely transact online. So that bill goes to trust and confidence, and that all underpins a successful economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis bill, too, goes to having a reasonable and fair economy where people can transact fairly, where we can have competition in the market. A lot of this does go to ensuring we live in a country where everyone who wants to get involved in business can have a crack and can participate on a level playing field in a trusted environment. So I guess I\u2019m extrapolating on the fly on that, but I do see those kinds of connections existing in response to the member\u2019s question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a2f606ed63014751941e0c660665534b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 109\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; New Zealand National 32; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00222ff3fc5690864573997242ce3d6f08f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ff3fc5690864573997242ce3d6f08f7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, this debate is interrupted. I will resume the Chair after dinner at 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002244a4317fedaa4279b0c1a35062b29810\u0022\u003EPart 2  Designated networks\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00226ea222827093463d92538fe50b322c8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ea222827093463d92538fe50b322c8e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, when we rose for dinner break the committee had just considered Part 1 of the Retail Payment System Bill. We now come to Part 2. This is the debate on clauses 10 to 28, designated networks. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4c591071ca940639916580f4e6d1634\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4c591071ca940639916580f4e6d1634\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY (Labour\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chair. I seek leave for all parts to be taken as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9cbd54e8b5e4d83b05382b216f661f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9cbd54e8b5e4d83b05382b216f661f2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00229e302218dc19400d8b867cf22bee144c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e302218dc19400d8b867cf22bee144c\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. We\u2019re moving so rapidly with this bill; it\u2019s a fascinating conversation, today. I just want to turn now to clause 12. This is the commission\u2019s recommendation to the Minister that a retail payment network should be designated, and the Minister said earlier in his contribution, before the dinner break, that Diners and Amex were not part of the designation. This is set out in Schedule 1, I see at the back here, where MasterCard, both its credit and debit facilities, are designated under the designation order; this is Schedule 1. And Visa is designated, both in terms of its credit and debit products. My question to the Minister is: what\u2019s the threshold that might lead to a designation occurring? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI do want to take this opportunity to correct a statement I made during the second reading, that I was under the view that Amex had been, effectively, designated or included in the provisions in Australia, and I now understand from them that that is not the case. But, in light of that, I\u2019d be keen to understand from the Minister what might be the threshold, given both Diners and American Express are already operating in New Zealand, albeit maybe with relatively low market shares. But what is the test going to be? And I know that it sets out in clause 12(2) that in deciding whether to make a recommendation, the commission must take into account the features of the retail network, the nature\u2014including the number, value, and nature\u2014of transactions, and the Financial Market Infrastructures Act. But, really, I\u2019m trying to understand: what are the broad thresholds that the commission might look at? Do you have to have a market share of 10 percent, 5 percent? What is deemed to be the point at which you might be contemplating\u2014one of these other networks or, heaven forbid, we might get a bit of competition and more people, although the Minister was pretty reluctant to address the question earlier about how this bill is going to bring about competition. But what are the broad parameters that would mean that a network might be deemed to be necessary to be designated? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9306d924d49433c8bfb2f775ac6ae37\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9306d924d49433c8bfb2f775ac6ae37\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I note the member has asked a question in respect of clause 12. If he were to read subclauses (1) and (2) in clause 12, he might find the answer to his question: \u201CIn deciding whether to make a recommendation, the Commission must take into account the following: (a) any features of the retail payment network, or any conduct of participants in the network, that reduce, or are likely to reduce competition or efficiency: (b) the nature of the network, including the number, value, and nature of transactions that the network currently processes or is likely to process in the future: [and] (c) the Financial Market Infrastructures Act 2021 and any other regulatory requirements in \u2026 New Zealand laws that the Commission considers relevant.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESo it has a discretion, and the Minister, as laid out in clause 11, can accept a recommendation from the commission, should he or she choose in the future, but ultimately it\u2019s the commission\u2019s judgment about the impact on the market of the different networks that are currently in play. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00227be84fac90e74c0e94eeb852d9b6fd79\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227be84fac90e74c0e94eeb852d9b6fd79\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E I think the Minister was preoccupied when I was addressing the issue. I think he was talking to his advisers. I did refer specifically to clause 12(2)(a), (b), and (c), which he\u2019s just conveniently repeated back to me. That wasn\u2019t my question, Minister. My question is: what are the broad thresholds\u2014and I use the tests around market share, because presumably there comes a point\u2014and I know this specifies the criteria that might be used, but it doesn\u2019t actually give an indication. Does American Express, if it had the 5 percent market share\u2014would it be likely to be regarded as an entity or a network that would be required to be designated? That\u2019s what I was trying to get, the broader picture, rather than just repeating back what I\u2019ve just repeated to him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u00222886d394ee38469a936e3a1aab71ffb8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222886d394ee38469a936e3a1aab71ffb8\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E In response to the member, as I did state before\u2014thank you, Madam Chair\u2014it\u2019s at the commission\u2019s discretion, and they are the experts on what\u2019s going on in the market. And, of course, a Minister could request that they investigate things if there is public interest in the growth of a particular network, or concerns about harm, or a fear of undermining competition in the market. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u002284c0f6d12748420aac2f142758d94941\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284c0f6d12748420aac2f142758d94941\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Well, I think we got to the same result, so let\u2019s move on. So, in terms of the designation, maybe for the listeners that are tuning into this exciting exchange, could the Minister tell us how long a designation lasts for? Then, in clause 15(3), it talks about \u201CIf a network ceases to be a designated network,\u201D. So I\u2019m now putting the contrary view back to him: at what point, and I\u2019m sure that the commissioner has got some jurisdiction around there\u2014but what would it mean that a network no longer becomes a designation? So that was it. Because I was hoping the Minister might answer the question: what would mean that you wouldn\u2019t become it? And presumably it\u2019s not because you go out of business, because that\u2019s self-evident. But if you get to a market share of 2 percent, which I think may be Amex\u2019s at the moment, and hasn\u2019t been designated, would that be a type of criteria that would be adopted to remove the designation order? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u00226dd0ef673ceb41dd92a94ed2ae88746c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226dd0ef673ceb41dd92a94ed2ae88746c\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Equally, in clause 15 it states that a designation may be up to a period of 10 years, so there\u2019s a clear demarcation in the bill around how long a designation will last. And of course, again, the member seems quite fixated on particular thresholds for different products in the market, but clause 12 lays out the conditions, as we have already canvassed in the debate, for the commission reaching a judgment about whether it is in the public interest to designate a particular network. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd1e1e07af254df39d54ff489e877b8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd1e1e07af254df39d54ff489e877b8b\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. In relation to the question that my colleague actually asked, in similar vein in terms of designation, I do realise that there are many different ways that people now make payment with technological advancement, particularly using new digital wallets that we actually have through our smartphones and often social media platforms also provide payment systems through their apps. These are done through those digital wallets, whether it\u2019s actually Alipay, whether it\u2019s actually Kakao Pay or Apple Pay, for example. Often these are done, you know, connecting through the bank accounts but it also uses other forms of cards and I\u2019m wondering why some of those have not been designated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u002214e158f74bb24ea18cf2e5685e16346a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002214e158f74bb24ea18cf2e5685e16346a\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E So the standards, for example, for the interchange fees for the designated networks will apply only to domestically issued cards in New Zealand, only to non-commercial credit cards, and to any payment instrument, not just physical cards, including virtual cards using methods like Apple Pay and Google Pay. So they are indeed captured within that framework.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00223c8489b582504f6e9842d39f5c201976\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c8489b582504f6e9842d39f5c201976\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Just moving on, this issue of issuing network standards and also in terms of the commission giving directions around network rules, there was quite a significant concern by some of the network operators that a network that operates across the world, and it just so happens that they also choose to operate in New Zealand\u2014that the commission might try and unilaterally impose specific rules to New Zealand that couldn\u2019t easily be put in place by the networks either, because they cut across all the other operations across the 192 countries in the world, or in fact just the time delay to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo can the Minister provides some assurance to the committee and, I presume, the network operators listening to this conversation that replaced clause 19(b) that has been inserted, which reads \u201Cconsult affected persons or persons that the Commission considers to be representatives of affected persons about the proposed standard code including the Commission\u2019s reason for issuing the proposed standard.\u201D or equivalent wording for directions that the commission might give\u2014can the Minister just provide some certainty to the network operators that we\u2019re not going to have a New Zealand Government or New Zealand Minister putting unnecessary constraints on those network operators?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022870c8436e985483099163a566bbc93f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022870c8436e985483099163a566bbc93f7\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I would observe that the schemes themselves already have different rules for operating in different jurisdictions that they themselves operate. And as I noted in my introductory comments, these directions do not have extraterritorial effect. They would only affect network rules in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1e4467b279d436f8a14b9749f5126f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1e4467b279d436f8a14b9749f5126f8\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d like to refer to clause 19, where it talks about \u201CProcess for issuing network standards\u201D. It actually talks about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7d354feb3bc4cf48075e575b9714f84\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Part 2\u2014correct me if I\u2019m wrong\u2014is the debate on clauses 10 to 28, and is the member addressing clause 29?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271a973740517428098a440d0018ba462\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE\u003C/span\u003E: No. It\u2019s 19.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4e769889e5749ccb27bdfd7ab6474da\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Nineteen. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef8b28140ec74a36aa966ee68f9326df\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE\u003C/span\u003E: I did say 19, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022130b8c84997a46ef80df09518155208e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f487ee653d94970b5d4f1bac4741ce1\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I shall clarify. It is actually Part 2, clause 19, \u201CProcess for issuing network standards\u201D. It talks about how the commission must make a proposed standard publically available and also talks about how it will\u2014in (b), it says \u201Cconsult affected persons, or persons that the Commission considers to be representatives of affected persons\u201D, and I\u2019m wondering if the Minister has a standard for the commission on who the commission should consult with and how widely the commission should consult.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022eba4a020fe7f445b8497a2149a07ccce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eba4a020fe7f445b8497a2149a07ccce\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Ultimately, these are the kinds of decisions that the commission has expertise in, and I would expect them to apply appropriate judgment in the exercising of these particular responsibilities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002293e62cee0f5a431a9227fbccbb7e4339\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 109\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; New Zealand National 32; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d04097b990f3441198b8545725ef5514\u0022\u003EPart 3  Merchant surcharging, monitoring and enforcement, and miscellaneous provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022f07fcbd1d52a4249afa48790bd704e35\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f07fcbd1d52a4249afa48790bd704e35\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Well, let\u2019s start at the beginning, Madam Chair, clause 29. So this deals with merchant surcharging standards, and the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee made a change. I just want to understand what this means and the Minister\u2019s perspective on it, because what subclause (1) states is \u201CThe purpose of this subpart is to ensure that [the] payment surcharges for payment services\u201D\u2014and this is what was removed\u2014\u201Care not excessive and reflect\u201D\u2014and instead inserted\u2014\u201Care no more than the cost to the merchant of the payment services used for accepting retail payments.\u201D So can I ask, is it the Minister\u2019s understanding that this new definition, which removes or changes from \u201Cnot excessive and reflect the cost\u201D to \u201Care no more than the cost\u201D\u2014does that mean that the service can not include any profit element at all? It is a straight cost aspect, cost transfer, and there cannot be the possibility of any profit being included in the surcharge?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u002273bd18c2af3f4b0f89ad46bad7f71df4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273bd18c2af3f4b0f89ad46bad7f71df4\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E The way I read this change is a clarification from the select committee, and I thank them for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f1cef63c80e4772967ca31c492e83bc\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Just to give the Minister a bit of time, because I know he\u2019s got his advisers there\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5254ec063084fcf8c9a44d5d861ac55\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Would you like to seek the call or\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222505b86baeff461fbeabe6e7aca19ac2\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292b290a76b4f42a994ac237cd911bd2b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Andrew Bayly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00223fefc4b1210a45159bbbf826bcaefebf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223fefc4b1210a45159bbbf826bcaefebf\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E May I seek a call, Madam Chair? Fantastic. Well, just to give the Minister a little bit of time, because I know he\u2019s got some advisers sitting beside him, perhaps he could just lean over and ask the officials, if he doesn\u2019t know the answer himself, whether, in fact, this revision of clause 29(1) actually enables the possibility of any profit element or whether it has to be strictly on a cost basis. And what does that mean?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u00225e0bda00bbb74cb1af512c9c03db53e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e0bda00bbb74cb1af512c9c03db53e2\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E We\u2019ll try again. I see this as a clarification of the wording that was put forward originally, and it says \u201Cno more than the cost to the merchant of the payment services used for accepting retail payments.\u201D I think it\u2019s pretty clear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e1ba28232b9f49f0a35da0f7b6150d11\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 109\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; New Zealand National 32; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f56144e5b697405cac76a089d47326c3\u0022\u003ESchedule 1\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff77ac97965343619bccf65c5b2c6699\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff77ac97965343619bccf65c5b2c6699\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: We move now to Schedule 1. The question is that Schedule 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002246b0ca9666764c1e8535db3369104063\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002203045bc66ccf42e6a86d8d6d66b1619e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002203045bc66ccf42e6a86d8d6d66b1619e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: We now come to our final debate. This is the debate on clauses 1 and 2, the title and commencement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229d7f063e437b477aaa04c63afd06bbf2\u0022\u003ECrown Pastoral Land Reform Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f144357b7caa4d8dbd73723295d4b56f\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000559\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 16 February.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d09e9e9974c54614ab562ca8c45c7216\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Crown Pastoral Land Act 1998 (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3e7775f14aa4eb19e935ee19ed52f46\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3e7775f14aa4eb19e935ee19ed52f46\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we return now to the interrupted consideration of the Crown Pastoral Land Reform Bill. When we were last considering this bill, Part 1 was being debated. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022e199b30358e043fd94c409435d54be85\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e199b30358e043fd94c409435d54be85\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s good to be finally back on this piece of legislation, even if it\u2019s very poor legislation. This has been a slow, drawn-out, painful exercise for the leaseholders who maintain their responsibilities under the Crown pastoral land reform Act of 2020. They\u2019ve been literally dragged through the high hills of the South Island on this journey of this piece of legislation, and all for nothing, because, as people who have been listening to the previous debate on this piece of legislation will know, a re-elected National-led Government is going to repeal this legislation at the first possible opportunity. We want to make that, again, very clear at this committee stage: a National-led Government will repeal this legislation at the first possible opportunity. It is poor legislation, it is bad legislation, and it is not in the best interests of New Zealand, the Crown pasture lease area, or, indeed, the families and businesses that operate those leases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI want to turn particularly to the amended purpose in the bill. The bill talks about, at new section 1A, in clause 5, \u201CThe purpose of this Act is to provide for the administration of pastoral land in a way that seeks to achieve the following outcomes: (a) maintaining or enhancing inherent values across the Crown pastoral estate for present and future generations, while providing for ongoing pastoral farming of pastoral land\u201D. What it doesn\u2019t say is anything about supporting the relationship between the land, the Crown, and the leaseholders, who are stewards of this land and have been, in many cases, for generations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThe clause goes on to say that the Crown supports its relationships with M\u0101ori under Te Tiriti and enables the Crown \u201Cto get a fair return on its ownership interest in [the] pastoral land\u201D. So, again, there is no mention of the inherent value, or enhancing the inherent value, of the existing relationship with the leaseholders, who, by dint of the lease that they have with the Crown, effectively have a treaty in their own right\u2014a treaty in their own right\u2014with the Crown. Doesn\u2019t that sound a little bit familiar to those who often talk about Treaty obligations that the Crown has in other matters? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo why is it, I\u2019d like to know from the Minister in the chair, that there is a lot of talk in new section 1A in the purpose section of this new bill about maintaining and enhancing inherent values across the Crown pastoral estate, supporting the Crown in its relationship with M\u0101ori, but zero mention of the inherent value of the relationship\u2014let alone enhancing that relationship\u2014with the leaseholders? I\u2019m interested to know what the Minister\u2019s rationale is for that, frankly, insulting omission from the purpose of this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u0022dba64b3ce14142518c622458216a87c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dba64b3ce14142518c622458216a87c0\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Well, look at all the political pontificating in this piece of legislation. Further erosion of the trust that 150 years, Minister, of farming in the high country has created\u2014a dash and it\u2019s all gone. The Rt Hon Scott Simpson pointed out\u2014oh, the Hon; I apologise. All in short order\u2014the Hon Scott Simpson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EInherent value. How do you, Minister, reconcile 150 years of farming, breaking in the land, the asset investment, the back-breaking work that went into reconciling and making this land profitable for rural New Zealand? This process erodes that trust. How do you reconcile that? Because this, to me and my party and the parties on the right, is an absolute disgrace\u2014and most of the landowners that this piece of legislation seems to erode all their trust in agree with me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022 data-id=\u002252e1e88af6d347fdb98b6ee40fe68b29\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252e1e88af6d347fdb98b6ee40fe68b29\u0022\u003ENICOLA GRIGG (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just speaking to Part 1 of this bill. Last time I spoke on this, I was interrupted by the dinner break, so the Minister didn\u2019t get an opportunity to answer my questions. So I thought, Minister, I\u2019ll give you another shot if you don\u2019t mind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EBut the fundamental basis of my question is: how does one design a system that will cater to 1.2 million hectares of incredibly diverse environment and ecology, of extraordinary landscape, topography, weather systems? More importantly, when we drill down into that, what is the review mechanism looking like? What safeguards will we put in place to address failures of the system; failures that this legislation will inevitably turn up? How does one resolve issues within a one-size-fits-all approach?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EWhen we think about it even more, the cumulative impact of these various different regulations that are being bestowed upon the high country farming sector, what will that cumulative impact be that will ensure we do not work against the objective of this bill? We\u2019ve heard a number of concerns raised by leaseholders, particularly the High Country Accord, that this piece of legislation is going to add layers and layers and layers of complexity and bureaucracy, and that this will largely duplicate regulation that\u2019s already been foreshadowed in the likes of the national policy statement (NPS) on freshwater, the NPS on indigenous biodiversity. So I would like to know from the Minister a further question: what cross-referencing has been done, or what work has been done, by officials to identify any of these double ups or crossovers? What efforts will be made to ensure that these double ups are actually alleviated to prevent further burden on these lessees?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u0022d760117f72814e51bb5bb39cceb3f1f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d760117f72814e51bb5bb39cceb3f1f0\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. To the Minister: this is 150 years of farming these high-country stations, and they stretch from my region of Southland all the way up to Marlborough. My colleague Stuart Smith and my colleague Nicola Grigg have high-country stations in their parts of the South Island. They vary in topography, they vary in altitude ranges, rainfall, soil type, vegetation types, and level of development. A one-size-fits-all approach in regulation will not deliver the best and most enduring of outcomes for their management.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EI note here that Part 1 talks about the outcomes for decision makers, and talks about maintaining or enhancing the inherent values across the Crown pastoral estate for present and future generations while providing for ongoing pastoral farming of pastoral land. I just ask whether the Minister has taken into account submissions\u2014for example, from young Jess Cocks, 11 years old, who lives at Mount Nicholas Station, across the Wakatipu Lake from where I live in Queenstown\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba24c5b90b084d5b818231904fd3051e\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: It was a very good submission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022043eaae2f1b74e78aede777ca57a901a\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and I\u2019m hearing it was a very good, very powerful submission. This station has been in the family for over 45 years, and she talked about loving living there\u2014many great places to explore, camp. I\u2019m talking about the connection to the land. Sometimes she goes spraying with her dad to kill bad weeds like gorse and nodding thistles. She catches lots of possums with her brother. This helps her, she said, to look after our native birds and forest, and also gives them pocket money\u2014so it\u2019s a win-win.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EWhat I\u2019m talking about here is the connection of these families, over generations, with the land. They\u2019ve taken something that, back in 1948, the Government tried to fix\u2014a lot of this land was unfarmable, it was unworkable, it was overrun with rabbits, and it was overrun with noxious weeds. The Land Act 1948 created the pastoral lease\u2014so we\u2019re talking about some 73 years ago. That Act gave a right of freehold to farmers already leasing Crown land on permanent leases\u2014the underlying principle being that a secure tenure at the basis of farming progress. It gave farmers confidence to invest in the property, invest throughout their lifetime, and, in fact, through generations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ELook, I\u2019ve been to a number of stations all over the South Island. For example, I went to the Muller Station with some of my colleagues and we saw the work that they\u2019ve done there since 1965. There\u2019s basically not a noxious weed to be seen, they\u2019ve made sure the deer are under control, and the possums and the rabbits are under control. Then we saw next door Molesworth Station, which is Crown owned\u2014and wilding pines everywhere. It\u2019s a very different approach taken by farmers when they have that sense of ownership\u2014which they have; ownership of the improvements on the farm, which last for generations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EMy question to you, Minister, is how are you going to maintain that sense of ownership for these farming families so they can continue to invest with confidence in their properties and ensure that they secure the benefits for all of us New Zealanders in these incredible places in the high country, without the Crown taking away that confidence\u2014there\u2019s this contractual relationship that\u2019s been there for some 73 years with these farmers\u2014and ensure that young Jess Cocks will have the confidence, when she grows up, to actually continue farming at the station, to continue looking after this land for her family and for all New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00226917c948c5504a5e9fcc94d34115c5fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226917c948c5504a5e9fcc94d34115c5fa\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Minister for Land Information):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, and, indeed, it is a pleasure to have this bill back in the Chamber. It has been hanging around for a while. I couldn\u2019t quite remember the last question the member asked from so long ago, but, anyway, I\u2019ll try to go through and answer a few of the things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EA little bit of background, just at the fact that the bill\u2019s come back in, I guess. We go back to the reality: this is Crown-owned land. There was the tragedy of the commons going way back, prior to 70 years, and, of course, the Crown realised that, actually, the land wasn\u2019t being looked after because there wasn\u2019t some vested interest. So they set up these Crown leases, which didn\u2019t give ownership of the land\u2014that remained with the Crown\u2014but gave the lessees the right to pasturage. It didn\u2019t give them the right to soil, but pasturage in perpetual renewal, which gave them certainty and quiet enjoyment\u2014those were quaint kinds of things when you look back at them now. But none the less, we recognise the questions around the purpose; we recognise and respect those legal rights, and we\u2019re not trying to take them away. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EIt was the National Government in 1997, actually, which set up the tenure review process, which was new. The view was that there were areas that could be freeholded, and some would go back to the Crown for conservation purposes, and, indeed, that proceeded, and most of the easy ones were done, whether there was clear delineation between high conservation values and commercial opportunities. For the last probably 10 years, it\u2019s got really hard and really messy and really sticky, and it\u2019s consumed huge amounts of time and effort from both the Crown, as the owner of the land, and the lessees, who have considered whether they should go through a tenure review process\u2014half of them have gone halfway through and pulled out; it\u2019s got really messy. So this bill tries to clarify the rights, and, in fact, many of the lease holders that I have spoken to are quite comfortable\u2014they want to get on and have the security to farm the land. They won\u2019t own the land because we\u2019ll end the tenure review, and, indeed, they just want to be able to farm it and enjoy the rights and the benefits of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ESo without going into the technical details of it, there will be conditions that will be laid down through closer engagement between the Crown and the lessees\u2014that\u2019s what they asked of us. They want more regular visits, they want to be able to talk to the landlord\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a4bbdccca3140a888b1cc4e896086ef\u0022\u003EBarbara Kuriger\u003C/span\u003E: No, they don\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b177a85da3bd43419c3478a778b80598\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, they do, and, indeed, the cheap politicking that we see from the other side fails to address what is an opportunity to give some certainty to those high-country lessees, and many are in the process now; some will be concluded, and others won\u2019t. In fact, I\u2019ve been on many, many properties myself as well, and they are all different, and we\u2019re trying to accommodate that through the new provisions around normal farming practices just being accepted, and they can get on and do those things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EIn theory, under the National Government\u2019s legislation, because they changed it, every one of those activities required a consent\u2014every one of them. What the commissioner did is he said, \u201CWell, I\u2019ll write over; I\u2019ll delegate that, and they won\u2019t have to apply every time they need a consent to dig a post hole or do other things.\u201D, but it was actually in the National Government legislation. What we\u2019re attempting to do here is to clarify what were really petty things and petty requirements into normal farm practice, and when there are some practices on-farm that might need to be considered by the landowner on behalf of all New Zealanders, then they\u2019ll work through that process. I\u2019ve committed to the lessees and to all the high country farmers that we\u2019ll work through that with the proper resources and the connection that we need to have with those lease holders, and there are some things that should not occur in those sensitive areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s what we\u2019re putting in place. Yes, there\u2019ll always be some controversy, but I think we\u2019ve pretty much worked through all the issues. We had a last-minute submission from the High Country Accord asking for a few changes that they thought might add to the bill. Look, I\u2019ve looked at them really carefully, but in the end, most of them have been covered through the process of consideration, and, at this stage, we won\u2019t be making any changes to the legislation. I think we had a really good attempt to sit down and talk right up to the last minute to agree with both the principles, with the certain provisions and the conditions that we\u2019ll require consents for, and ultimately, the process of engagement, and I think we got it about right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u002205b772217f70493d8471215d2819147b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205b772217f70493d8471215d2819147b\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Chair. Thank you very much. I guess I am surprised by some of the comments coming from the National Opposition because they seem not to recognise the difference between the Crown Pastoral Land Act, the Resource Management Act, and the number of submissions that the select committee heard that the Acts have a different purpose. The Crown Pastoral Land Act is about managing the Crown pastoral estate to protect the Crown\u2019s interests. That\u2019s why it\u2019s not duplication, as some members of the Opposition are suggesting, to have two regimes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EI was pleased that the Minister highlighted the considerable liaison that had gone on with leaseholders in the development of this legislation, and would remind the Opposition that there was a discussion document and public meetings which were well attended by leaseholders, and that contributed to the development of the bill. There was a regulatory impact statement that also contributed to the development of the bill, which highlighted, as National members seem to overlook, that there has been quite considerable change in the high country from burning, from overgrazing, and from cultivation that has led to the destruction and loss of inherent values. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWhat this regime in this bill does is modernises the Crown Pastoral Land Act regime. With the large schedule of permitted activities, as the Minister noted, it means that there won\u2019t be a need for consent. Those activities were discussed with the High Country Accord, with the High Country Committee of Federated Farmers. They were developed in the bill with that input and there have been a number of changes made through a very thorough select committee process which sought to take on board the submissions that were made that sought to improve the purpose of the bill and to actually change some of the definitions. Those changes mean that we\u2019ve got a robust bill, and you have this bill and a regime, which Land Information New Zealand and the Commissioner of Crown Lands have adopted, of having much more regular engagement with leaseholders, and visits and engagement on the land\u2014that\u2019s been affected by COVID. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EBut this is about a regime which continues pastoral farming on Crown pastoral lease land, seeks to protect the Crown interest in those lands, and ends tenure review because the bulk of the properties that wanted to go through tenure review have progressed through it and it\u2019s the more difficult ones that are left now. People have had an opportunity since the mid-1990s to go through tenure review. It is time that process ended because there are a number of reports which showed that it wasn\u2019t delivering good outcomes to the Crown, and the regime that the bill sets in place is a modern regime that protects the Crown interests, protects inherent values, but recognises and promotes a sustainable future for farming. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022a17289ff3bd245d9ae8cd9ab2065ee0e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a17289ff3bd245d9ae8cd9ab2065ee0e\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair\u2014I think that was a very good decision. I was listening to Minister Damien O\u2019Connor talk about his visits and discussions with high country farmers. I\u2019d like to point out to the Minister: Molesworth Street is not Molesworth\u2014it is a long way from Molesworth. And what I heard from him was something I think he might have heard on Molesworth Street; he would not have heard it anywhere near Molesworth Station, I can assure him of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to actually go back to my colleague who discussed young Jess Cocks, and she made a huge impression on Joseph Mooney; myself; you, Madam Chair; and the Hon Scott Simpson. We were all there that afternoon\u2014did I forget anyone else? I think that was the lot of us. What a wonderful day we had there. And what it really brought home\u2014and what I picked up from the Minister is he completely does not understand the management of these properties is completely different. The bracken will take over on the Cocks\u2019 property, whereas we went to Minaret Station\u2014completely different circumstances. Leaving that property alone for a short time, it regenerates right back into fern and into its native state. The fact is, most of the pastoral lease properties in New Zealand are a highly modified environment because they were burnt many years ago\u2014by the moa hunters, I suspect\u2014and so it changed the whole environment. We now have to manage that anyway; we can\u2019t just let it revert. Because what we saw up the Awatere Valley on the Muller Station, the wilding pines are being managed by Merino wethers, actually, and the seedlings that aren\u2019t controlled by the Merino wethers are able to either be sprayed by a drone or by a helicopter. Very few of them\u2014it\u2019s a much easier job. In contrast, when you look at the Molesworth, admittedly it\u2019s different soil types, but in the Molesworth it has a real significant wilding pine issue because they run cattle and they can\u2019t control it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, what we\u2019ve got here is an ideological issue that the Labour Party and the Green Party hate farmers. Particularly, they hate pastoral farmers, and these guys are right in their sights; it\u2019s very clear. This bill is just a load of nonsense. A whole lot of stuff here about all of the consents they have to get on a high country farm to disturb soil\u2014something that is done reluctantly because of the wind erosion and all those sorts of things. But occasionally you have to fix a fence, and that means re-routing it around a slip or something, or re-routing a track\u2014they want those farmers to go through a consent process. It\u2019s marvellous for bureaucracy\u2014I think there\u2019s 14,000 more bureaucrats in Wellington. It\u2019s just a waste of time, a waste of energy\u2014it\u2019s sand in the gears of the economy. What they don\u2019t understand is every layer of bureaucracy that they add in, it goes right across the economy and slows it down. This bill is sand in those gears. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EThis is meant to be about a pastoral lease protecting the Crown\u2014and that\u2019s all of our assets, not just the current Government of the day. The Government of the day is only merely there for a brief period to look after it in perpetuity for us. Right? That\u2019s what it\u2019s all about. And these people who have the lease as their proxy, effectively, looking after that land. This bill does nothing to help that; in fact, it makes it worse. You\u2019ll get a\u2014not you, Madam Chair, but we will get perverse outcomes from that bill. So I\u2019d like to know from the Minister: did he actually get off Molesworth Street and on to the Molesworth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a19667cd934d45f48f1bfe62c0be5800\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a19667cd934d45f48f1bfe62c0be5800\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s good to be able to speak after the Minister, Damien O\u2019Connor, because when we had the Minister he talked about the quaint lifestyle of hill country farmers. That\u2019s that Molesworth Street attitude to that farming and to farmers in general. And my colleague is completely right: this is an asset land grab, taking away the power of people that have, for generations, thought they had a right in that land\u2014and they actually do have a right in that land, because it\u2019s a perpetual lease. It is not a lease for 100 years; it is a perpetual lease. The Labour Party are using a small group of farmers, about 100 farmers, to take away the rights to use that land. That is, effectively, what is happening here, and all the farmers in New Zealand, all asset holders in New Zealand, should be backing these people today, because this is the start of what the Labour Party wants to do. This isn\u2019t just about those farmers there. This is taking away the rights to farm your farm. Basically, they believe that they should tell you how to farm, and what you can farm, and how to do it. This is a precursor to their agenda.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ENow, the Minister has been very careful to paint this as some picture of \u201CLook at the saviour of the Labour and Green parties. Aren\u2019t you so lucky that we\u2019re going to iron out any problems here?\u201D That is completely at odds with anybody that\u2019s in that sector. Those hill country farmers, when you go to their houses, they are, effectively, crying at the dinner table. Their life work is going out the window. Their kids will not come home and be part of the next generation of farmers that we need as a country. And it is not that these are the hard cases. This is the Department of Conservation that has made it so hard for some of these deals to be done. The reality is that if these deals could be done, they would be done by those farmers. But they found that they have been hamstrung in their negotiations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EI say to the Minister: don\u2019t treat farmers like fools. Don\u2019t try and come in here and mollycoddle us and tell us how great you are, trying to save us. The reality is we see through your agenda. We know what you\u2019re doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022515ac38d913f42efa85fb6c631767249\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! [Interruption] Order! The member will not bring the Chair into the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221756d39e6d249c8a31921871f26344c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, Madam Chair. It\u2019s not cheap politicking. It is the reality of an agenda that needs to be stopped. I want the Minister to stand up now and give a commitment to every other farmer in New Zealand that they won\u2019t be told how to use their farm. Can he do that? I don\u2019t think he can. He won\u2019t tell anybody that, because he knows that\u2019s their agenda. He looks all around the room, won\u2019t look straight, won\u2019t tell you the answer, because he knows that\u2019s the agenda of the Labour Party. All farmers need to be aware of that and learn from this legislation tonight. This is the start of what Labour and the Greens want to do to our agricultural sector, and it should be stopped now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022a456de369c594f09a59b47147cf5d8cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a456de369c594f09a59b47147cf5d8cb\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to my colleagues on this side of the House for having described the problem with this legislation so clearly. I just want to articulate a little bit further, in relation to Part 1 of the Crown Pastoral Land Reform Bill, what the problem is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWhat is the problem? Well, it\u2019s an environmental problem. It\u2019s a problem where the Government and the Minister and the Minister before him have articulated that they don\u2019t trust the farmers who farm the Crown pastoral land under perpetual leases, whose families have lived on the land for generations, who have given up so much to live in remote rural places that people like myself from Auckland would think, \u201CCrikey, that\u2019s cold. How could you live there?\u201D That very, very difficult place to farm. It\u2019s inaccessible. Some of these places are only accessible by boat or by air. And yet these families have lived there for generations because they love the land, they love the environment, and they love New Zealand. That\u2019s where this Government, this Minister, and the former Minister have got this totally wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut I want to read to you what the aspiration is for this Crown pastoral land: \u201CA sustainable management system for Crown Pastoral Land will be one that recognises and balances the different values this land holds for people across Aotearoa, a system that fairly and efficiently allocates costs and benefits,\u201D\u2014Minister\u2014\u201Cand a dynamic system that recognises the constant evolution of the land and our relationships with it.\u201D That wasn\u2019t written by your officials, Minister. That was not written by any other political party, that\u2019s not a manifesto. That, in fact, is the words of the submission from Jonathan Wallis from Minaret Station, a vision of a sustainable management system for Crown pastoral land. That is what the lessees are advocating for. In fact, what they told the committee and what we saw with our own eyes, including the chair of the committee\u2014the Hon Eugenie Sage, a former Minister who chairs the Environment Committee\u2014and the members of the Labour Party on the committee, and, of course, MPs from ACT and National who visited these high country farms, was there\u2019d been a progression from that time when New Zealand was first colonised, and we can only imagine what that must have been like, over 1,000 years ago, for the people who first came to New Zealand to cast their eyes on the Southern Alps.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut for those who came more recently, in particular during the time of European settlement of the South Island and the gold rush, that is when the large-scale environmental degradation of this part of New Zealand occurred. That was when not only were areas burned in anticipation that they could be sown and then grazed, but much worse. With huge pumps, the hoses and the sluicing that occurred during the goldmining era when literally the hillsides were washed away with giant hoses and cascades of water. Now, when you go there today and you see the photographs of that time, you see the images of a devastated countryside. And in fact, that\u2019s what every country has done to its environment in the early days of industrial exploitation, and New Zealand\u2019s no different, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut what the farmers, the families who live on these Crown pastoral leases\u2014in fact, who have a property right to live there in perpetuity under these Crown pastoral leases\u2014have done is got with the new ways of farming. They\u2019ve adopted farm management plans. They\u2019ve taken land out of production that is steep and hard to manage. And what they have done, in fact, is restored the natural environment so that now their farming systems are complementary with this very unique environment. That is why they\u2019ve asked the Government, they\u2019ve asked the Minister, and they asked the Environment Committee, \u201CPlease do not proceed with this bill. It\u2019s completely unnecessary. We already have all of the tools, all of the latest methodology to farm and operate in this unique and special place. And by the way, we have a property right, and imposing an additional set of regulations, and other people making decisions over how we do basic things like dig a ditch and put in a culvert on our land is completely unnecessary.\u201D That\u2019s why, Minister, ACT would repeal this law and that\u2019s why we\u2019re asking the Government not to proceed with it, because by the time you\u2014[Time expired]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u002206597d28f57e43d1a577a395fb9b4eee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206597d28f57e43d1a577a395fb9b4eee\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY (Chief Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Thank you, Madam Chair. At the start of each committee stage, you remind the committee that this is an opportunity to ask questions. Now\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00225a1083ba8d364cda99aadc95586024f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a1083ba8d364cda99aadc95586024f2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: OK. Thank you. I\u2019m going to thank you for your point of order. You\u2019ve gotten in just ahead of me, because I wish to say the following things to the committee. Part 1 of this bill has now been running for half an hour. There are a number of Supplementary Order Papers which are on the Table and that I have here. I need the committee of the whole House to start focusing on Part 1 of the bill more closely. It\u2019s sounding more like a third reading debate\u2014this is not what we are considering tonight; we are in the committee of the whole House stage. So I invite the members, if they wish to keep this debate lively and focused, they will do just that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022f934a4c26e1c4a25985313e93eb7866c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f934a4c26e1c4a25985313e93eb7866c\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I listened to the Minister\u2019s gratuitously insulting comments about what he called \u201Cquaint, old-fashioned ideas\u201D relating to important principles of property rights in New Zealand in relation to land tenure. Yes, a leasehold is not a freehold\u2014that\u2019s understood by everybody involved. But it was gratuitously insulting for the Minister to imply that the property right contained in the lease in perpetuity of these of these 170-something high country leaseholders is somehow a quaint, old concept or idea that needs modernising. That is entirely inappropriate, and I would have thought better of the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI want to continue where I left off on my last contribution in relation to the definition, now, of inherent value. So when I was last speaking on this, I made the point that the inherent value that the purpose of the bill seeks to establish makes no comment or recognition of the enhancement and inherent value of the leaseholders, yet it does call for a greater understanding and closer supporting relationship with M\u0101ori, for instance, but no mention of the leaseholders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EWell, in the definition part of the section, inherent value is actually attempted to be defined. It says that inherent value \u201Cmeans a value that arises from an ecological, a landscape, a cultural, a heritage, or a scientific attribute or characteristic of a natural resource that\u2014\u201D and then it goes on. Then, further on, it says it \u201Crelates to a historic place on or forming part of the land\u201D, and then the absolute final insult is that in subclause (b), it says, \u201Cdoes not include any value that relates to or is associated with farming activity a pastoral farming activity\u201D. So a pastoral farming activity is specifically excluded from being considered an inherent value.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EWell, that\u2019s just ideological claptrap; that is insulting; that is a slur upon the hard work of generations of high country farmers who have done so much to enhance, protect, and maintain the high country of New Zealand that is so loved and cherished by all New Zealanders. These people have done it season in and season out over generations. To specifically exclude from the definition of inherent value, pastoral farming activity is just plain wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ENow, it\u2019s important that people listening to this debate understand the genesis and the history of it, because it actually started in the last Parliament when the then Land Information New Zealand Minister was shepherding this piece of legislation through the Parliament and staff started it off. It was based on ideological agendas rather more than practical application in any regard to the land or the people that make their lives and their livings and raise their families there and have done for generations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThis is a piece of Green Party ideological envy politics, actually. That\u2019s really what it\u2019s about, but it\u2019s being supported by the full Labour Party caucus\u201465 of them. The sad thing for those 65 is that even though they will be whipped into supporting this piece of legislation, most of them will not be in this Parliament when we repeal it next. Most of them will not be here. So it must be utterly frustrating for them, because they know in their heart of hearts that to specifically exclude from a definition of inherent value in this legislation, the work and the history and the effort and the blood, sweat, and tears that amounts to pastoral farming activity is fundamentally wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI want to just, in the short time\u2014in fact, I\u2019m going to ask the Minister why pastoral farming is excluded in their definition of inherent value, and then I\u2019ll make a further contribution later on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4dc78fecf674d8fb09733cc2231cf50\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4dc78fecf674d8fb09733cc2231cf50\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I would like to ask the Minister: how does this Part 1 of the bill recognise the contribution of the approximately 170 high country farmers and their families and the contribution that they have made to agriculture in New Zealand; their contribution to the history of high country farming; the contribution made financially, environmentally, conservationally, emotionally; the investments that they have made over several generations? How does this part of the legislation recognise the trust that was involved in a voluntary process\u2014the tenure review? How does it give some value to the 1.2 million hectares of our national landscape\u2014something close to 5 percent of New Zealand\u2019s total land area that has been administered, managed carefully, and prudently cared for by these families over generations? How does it show any respect for the relationships that have been there over generations? I would note the lack of respect that was shown from the other side of the Chamber when my colleague mentioned that there were families in tears at the kitchen table and the response from the other side was scoffing. So how does this introduction show some respect for those farmers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9ba0273070c44e6b599843a34684fa5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9ba0273070c44e6b599843a34684fa5\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki - King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. My colleague Penny Simmonds just talked about a lack of respect for the farmers\u2014and the genesis of this bill is that the current Government and the previous coalition Government had no trust of the farmers. My colleague Scott Simpson talked before about the genesis of this bill where, in the last Parliament, the previous Minister got up and made a speech, and when I heard the current Minister get up and make his speech, I felt like there were two different agendas going on. The concept of the current Minister is \u201CIt\u2019ll be all right; we\u2019re not doing very much. We\u2019re actually going to let these people get on and have their quiet enjoyment of their leasehold properties.\u201D Well, let me just suggest that the Government has come in and probably actually caused a massive upheaval to the quiet enjoyment of these leasehold properties. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ESo I have an amendment in line with that and this is about how the process of applications is done to undertake activities on the land with the commissioner and around the commissioner\u2019s decision. And if we go to clause 8, \u201CPart 1 replaced\u201D, I want to propose a new section 11(3)(b). I want to delete the proposed section 11(3)(b), which actually currently says, \u201Cmay consider relevant Government policy decided by Cabinet, in particular policy that relates to national directions (such as national policy statements and national environment standards);\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ENow, the reason I want to change this is I think the words \u201Cdecided by Cabinet, in particular policy\u201D are totally unnecessary. We have generational farms down in the South Island who know far better than any member of the Cabinet. And we\u2019ve seen what happens when Cabinet sticks their fingers into decisions. You know, we\u2019ve seen the \u201CLet\u2019s get rid of the gas and burn a heap of Indonesian coal.\u201D scenario. Cabinet\u2019s sticking their fingers into generational and multigenerational farming, which are showcase farms. They are farms that prior to COVID had tourists coming down. They\u2019re exemplar farms around pest control, they\u2019re exemplar farms around weed control, and they bring people in to showcase New Zealand. If we look at a lot of photos overseas and we see the tourists coming in, the activities on these farms\u2014nobody likes more than seeing a picture of New Zealand with wonderful merino sheep in it. It\u2019s an absolute showcase and an absolute exemplar. So I think Cabinet should keep its nose out of these high country farms and let the farmers get on with it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EI would like my amendment\u2014to remove the provision that\u2019s in there and say \u201Cmay consider relevant\u201D\u2014this is to do with the commissioner\u2014\u201Cmay consider relevant Government policy that relates to nationally applicable environmental matters\u201D and then \u201C(such as national policy standards and national environment standards\u201D. These people know what they\u2019re doing. They don\u2019t need an overbearing Cabinet coming in, interfering with their lives, upsetting their multigenerational families, and actually taking control over something that was working perfectly\u2014perfectly\u2014before this actually happened. So thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u002236b79a653b3a433796db1d77aa441e4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236b79a653b3a433796db1d77aa441e4f\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d like to turn to new section 8 in clause 8 in Part 1, where it lays out in subsection (2)(a), \u201Cmay undertake the pastoral activity, or cause it to be undertaken, if the activity is classified as a permitted pastoral activity in Part 1 of Schedule 1AB:\u201D. Well, when I turn to new Schedule 1AB in Schedule 2, under subclause (1)(c) in particular, it says, \u201Cthe invasive exotic pest plants comprise no less than 90% of vegetation cover;\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EIt has other qualifications in that as well, but on that 90 percent I have a question. Does that mean that if the pastoral farmer has a few wilding pines that he\u2019s going past and he pulls them out of the ground, he should have had a consent for that? But if they\u2019re as thick as the hairs on a dog\u2019s back, then he can go for it\u2014he can do what he likes. But if there\u2019s only one or two, which would be good practice\u2014it would be good practice to get ahead of the problem by hitting it when it\u2019s very early stages, and that\u2019s what good farmers do. They do this sort of thing all the time. But to me, it looks like they\u2019d have to get a consent. I\u2019d really like the Minister, firstly, to clarify that particular section. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EThere are a number of others, like where the by-kill must not exceed 200 metres square in the hectare, or the area involved doesn\u2019t exceed 25 hectares in any five-year period. When we\u2019re talking about small areas, we could have quite a thick patch, but, no, we\u2019re covering 90 percent of the area, so how do you interpret that? Are we talking 90 percent of a small area, or 90 percent of a specific paddock, 90 percent of the whole pastoral lease\u2014it doesn\u2019t say that there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ESo perhaps the Minister could get on his feet and tell us the specifics of what that particular clause in the schedule means\u2014that is Schedule 1AB(1)(c) in particular. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7d81ca89233491395c0da665c98e9c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7d81ca89233491395c0da665c98e9c6\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I\u2019ve got two questions arising from the Minister\u2019s earlier comments. The first one: was he referring to the right of exclusive possession and quiet enjoyment as quaint concepts and indicating that these are no longer relevant? I mean, this will be a huge shock to property lawyers and anyone who owns property or has property rights in the entirety of New Zealand. The right of exclusive possession and the right to quiet enjoyment are crucial parts of our legal framework in terms of land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227aae3f7604e4b12ab18216d9d40bb18\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Cornerstone of property law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022971bc2b28c8241d8a20ff747d6d5a258\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a crucial part of property law. I mean, has the Minister taken any advice on that? I\u2019d really, seriously, like to know that. I think New Zealanders would like to know that because this could undermine the right to property ownership in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c0a074d6ecd42bea15c3e464ca1ed8d\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: First they came for the high country farmers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255692a7890634419b1b28e3f37211156\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY\u003C/span\u003E: First they came for the high country farmers, as my colleague the Hon Scott Simpson said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThe second one is the Minister talked about high country farmers looking forward to having lots of visits. I do wonder whether he read or listened to or talked to Federated Farmers, for example, who said in their submission, the bill \u201Cfundamentally changes the nature of the relationship between the Crown as lessor, and the leaseholder. The existing contractual relationship based on trust and reciprocity, would be replaced by an approach of regulation [policing] and enforcement \u2026 [This diminishes] the future constructiveness and openness of relationships \u2026 It reduces the certainty of leases and the incentivisation to continue to invest and enhance environmental outcomes given no accompanying or reciprocal ability to address changing pastoral needs as provided for.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EI also wonder if the Minister listened to or talked to the High Country Accord, who also said \u201CWe are strongly of the view that the Bill\u2019s proposal to change the nature of the contractual relationship between Crown and lessee to a regulatory one underpinned by offence provisions is a considerable strategic mistake and overlooks the predictable changes in lessee and LINZ official behaviour. Like it or not, a visit from LINZ will be characterised in the future as a visit from the Police. Under threat of allegations of having committed an offence under the Act, LINZ cannot expect that their visits will be welcomed. That is not to say that LINZ will be treated with anything but courtesy,\u201D\u2014which is what we always we get from our high country farmers\u2014\u201Cbut there will be a natural trepidation and fear that comes with any Police investigatory visit. The strength of the current relationships between lessees, LINZ and its contractors will be immediately weakened.\u201D Those are irreconcilable with those comments, Minister, that were made earlier. Both Federated Farmers and the High Country Accord are very clearly saying that they will not be welcoming visits and repeated visits in a regulatory framework that is treating them\u2014they are feeling as criminals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EMy colleague Barbara Kuriger spoke about an incredible ambassador role that the high country farmers provide for people coming to our country. I\u2019ve got a cut from Matangi Station who\u2019s a station up behind the clock tower on Alexandra\u2014Central Otago, part of my electorate. I mean, they hosted Crankworx, one of the world\u2019s biggest mountain biking events. And, you know, and I went to the opening event, which was at the shearing shed in Matangi Station, and they\u2019ve got these rams that their bloodlines go back about 150 years, sort of indicating how long this has been going, you know, this relationship to the land and the animals on this property. The mountain bikers from across the world, the best mountain bikers in the world, were blown away by the experience they received there. How is the Minister going to ensure that these incredible people who look after this land and provide an incredible ambassador role for our country, feel that they are not being treated as criminals and that there\u2019s that relationship of trust that is based on a 73-year-old contractual arrangement that we currently have in place?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022acc33bfb6f024961a605d1fa4c9a6a06\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022acc33bfb6f024961a605d1fa4c9a6a06\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Minister for Land Information):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and I\u2019ll try and answer a few of the things. Regarding the exclusive possession, I absolutely uphold that and the bill upholds their exclusive possession. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWhat I referred to about quiet enjoyment, I guess, was the reality that many in their homes in central Auckland would enjoy that as well, as we would anywhere. It\u2019s a bit of an ideal, really, in today\u2019s world, be it of mobility and people coming in and around and on to these properties, and, of course, I respect that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EBut this idea that all these high country farmers are the same is a little bit idealistic as well. Every single property is different, as is every single farmer. There are some spectacular farmers there and there are a few who haven\u2019t always adhered to the laws and the conditions of the lease. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EOne of the issues that we\u2019re trying to sort out is, I guess, all of the good work of the vast majority of those lessees is not undermined by, I guess, the failure of a few and the inability of Land Information New Zealand (LINZ) in a clear way, other than\u2014actually, the only real threat they had was to take the lease, because there were not infringement notices, there weren\u2019t minor offences that could be imposed if there was a minor offence carried out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWhen we talk about minor consents\u2014and there are a whole lot of things\u2014you see, the National Party legislation of 1998 required a consent for digging postholes, required a consent for digging an offal pit, required a consent for removing tree stumps, and required a consent for the ongoing maintenance of tracks on these properties. That was National Party legislation. What we\u2019re wanting to do here is to offer more certainty and remove. Now, what happened is a letter\u2014a letter, just like a letter you can write to your friends and family\u2014went out from the commissioner to say that, actually, all those minor consent issues are approved. But it was only a letter. No legal standing at all; just a letter that could be withdrawn with another letter. What we\u2019re hoping to do is to ensure the people who will continue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t like to single out anyone, but I know Jonathan Wallis\u2019 submission was quoted. I want to thank him for his participation through the accord and the leadership role that he\u2019s played and making that submission. Indeed, I think that the property there will continue under a leasehold arrangement. What he seeks is some certainty. This legislation will offer him certainty, where the boundaries are will give more regular connection with LINZ, the landowner, and, I think, will allow Jonathan and his kids and grandkids, to carry on at Minaret Station and look after it in a spectacular way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EBut to imply that nothing has changed over a hundred years is, again, both wrong and na\u00EFve and romantic. Many of the farmers have, mostly in a way that is in keeping with the environment, intensified and developed their properties\u2014centre-pivot irrigation, different crops, things that are quite alien to the high country environment. Now, some have done it really well and protected the inherent values\u2014but they are not, themselves, the inherent values of the land; they are new developments that are owned by the lessees, and we respect that. We simply want to be able to work with them to ensure that the enthusiasm of perhaps a new lessee coming in, seeing an opportunity, doesn\u2019t push the boundaries on environmental management or doesn\u2019t undermine the inherent values that other New Zealanders see in the high country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ESo this legislation is designed to offer certainty to remove the threat that under the National Party\u2019s legislation, a letter could\u2019ve been sent from the commissioner to the lessee, saying, \u201CYou have to apply for a consent for every single posthole that you need.\u201D How ridiculous. That was National Party legislation. This will mean that that never has to occur. The maintenance of tracks can be an approved and permitted activity. So we\u2019ve moved through to \u201Cif you want to put in a centre pivot and develop an area on some of the flat area, well, you should sit down with the landowner and work through the mitigations and the intensification.\u201D, because the landowner\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5a0883e10ab44a8a467db813eb9957f\u0022\u003EHon David Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s no chance in hell you\u2019re gonna let that happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cbe90165e58445fbde29f29a5cb87d9\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Bennett there, I think he might be the landowner of a farm somewhere, and I don\u2019t think\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d295976c19a84bda834a84a4ab48fc80\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Several.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022812a40850ce646abbe276d2a7b858aa5\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014probably a couple of farms\u2014he would allow a sharemilker to come on and change what happens in a drastic way on his property, without at least talking to them. That\u2019s what we\u2019re asking for here, that the Crown is the owner of the land, respecting all of the rights and the investment and the heritage of those good people on the land, just to say, \u201CLet\u2019s have a more productive and ongoing relationship.\u201D That\u2019s all we\u2019re asking. I think the 167, I think it is, lessees will be able to continue with certainty, with perpetual right to renewal, with knowing where the boundaries are, and being able to sit down and talk with an agency that is better resourced, that is better engaged, and that actually wants a genuine partnership; not one of hands-off disconnection, and when something goes wrong or a lessee does something that is not in keeping with good management and most of the other lessees know it\u2019s not in keeping with good management, there wasn\u2019t an ability for LINZ as the guardian on behalf of us all to step in and say, \u201CLook, that\u2019s wrong. There should be some kind of penalty or some incentive not to do it again.\u201D The only penalty was \u201CWe\u2019ll take the lease from you.\u201D, which was clearly ridiculous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019re just trying to find the right balance here in a whole lot of different ways, respecting the right, not wanting to remove those rights, but making sure that there is a good balance there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022513e8079de6b419bb62804309671f0d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022513e8079de6b419bb62804309671f0d8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I take the next call, and thanks to the members who are calling, we are now 55 minutes into Part 1. There are five Supplementary Order Papers (SOPs) which have been lodged for Part 1 of the bill. I am looking for targeted contributions, and members seeking the call to speak on SOPs to keep Part 1 alive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022 data-id=\u00224b59f9cd5ee74037829359e78035480b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b59f9cd5ee74037829359e78035480b\u0022\u003ENICOLA GRIGG (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair; you read my mind. I was just wanting to jump up to speak to a Supplementary Order Paper, so thank you for the opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EI think the quote of the night would have to go to the Minister, in his first contribution, where he said, \u201CWe won\u2019t be making any changes to this bill.\u201D, which I think speaks volumes of this Government and indeed this Minister. Time and time and time again, submitters, experts in the field, leaseholders, and high country run holders who have been working in this industry and on this land for centuries have tried to persuade this Government to revisit this daft idea. And, actually, so much of this sheets back to the fact this Government has been led by the nose by the Greens on this particular bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EMany submitters this evening have talked about the changing nature of the relationship between the Crown and the leaseholder. So I would like to turn the Minister\u2019s mind to the amendment in my name, where we talk about Schedule 2 of the bill and the proposed new Schedule 1AB, Part 1, where we talk about activities: permitted, discretionary, prohibited. I would like to ask the Minister: considering he said he won\u2019t be making any changes to this bill, what consultation was carried out with leaseholders as to what permitted, discretionary, and prohibited activities might look like? Because the way I read it, so much of this is already business as usual: pine control, gorse control, broom control, crack willows, grey willows, you name it. One of the speakers earlier on this side of the Chamber referred to the debacle that is going on up in the Marlborough region when one looks at the Muller Station versus St James, one very clearly well looked after, the other left in Crown hands and looks like an absolute disgrace. So to the Minister: what consultation was carried out, particularly around these activities? What consideration was given to business as usual? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EThe Minister also mentioned in his contribution just a short while ago that we were pushing boundaries of environmental management. So that leads me to ask the Minister my next question: what consideration has been given to legally binding farm environment plans to prevent the pushing of boundaries of environmental management? Because this has even been raised in the regulatory impact statement that the Minister or indeed the Crown should consider those recommendations to work with lessees on the likes of farm environment plans. I would like an answer to that, Minister, thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a54b638a04a54d559f7d5751bf0a5c5f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a54b638a04a54d559f7d5751bf0a5c5f\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki - King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. In light of the explanation that the Minister, the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor, just has given around a letter that he thought was a bit weak in terms of whether people could dig in post holes and other relatively minor things, I\u2019ve actually got two questions in relation to what he said. One of those is: why did they not just actually put that in a regulation, to say that was a permitted activity, instead of saying that someone could actually just withdraw the letter at some point in time? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThe second thing is: when the Minister gave his explanation around Land Information New Zealand (LINZ) not being able to go into those farms or being able to have certain authority over those farms, why, then, does this bill then relate a clause, which I\u2019m trying to take out and replace, that brings Cabinet into the decision? How many other decisions that Government agencies take do Cabinet Ministers go and put their fingers into? Why will the amendment I\u2019ve got here not be taken up and put into this bill as a change? Why does Cabinet need to have a role in doing this, when, as the Minister describes, it\u2019s something that he expects that LINZ will be able to do? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u002255314b69298649d5afbc2b92e1a39ca8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255314b69298649d5afbc2b92e1a39ca8\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Speaking to the amendment in the name of Barbara Kuriger, could the Minister confirm that the Environment Committee considered quite carefully this whole issue around what constituted Government policy? One of the reasons that this clause in the bill refers specifically to national environmental standards and policy statements is that the select committee desired that there was a degree of clarity around exactly what national policy the Commissioner of Crown Lands would refer to, and the fact that it was a national environmental standard that had been signed off by Cabinet in the same way that the National Environmental Standards for Freshwater have been would give certainty to the commissioner when he or she was making decisions around discretionary consent and had to bring national policy to bear. What exactly was that Government policy\u2014and the clause was intended to make that clear. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe other thing that I wondered if the Minister could elaborate on was that the Opposition has repeatedly given the suggestion that all pastoral lessees are family operations that have been on the land for generations. Could the Minister confirm that there are a number of overseas residents\u2014absentee owners\u2014and companies who own pastoral leases, and that it is not all this image we have of generations of one family owning the lease? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EFurther, could the Minister, in terms of the partnership relationship that he talked about\u2014that the bill, through the regulatory regime that it implements, is all about ensuring that things like pests are controlled. Could he elaborate on the significant Government investment that this Government has made in things like wilding pine control and wallaby control, and on Land Information New Zealand\u2019s involvement in rolling out that pest management work? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u00228aea7cc568f94cd7b82f67e2ac7a7e1e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228aea7cc568f94cd7b82f67e2ac7a7e1e\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Very quickly, this speaks to the amendment in the name of Scott Simpson and I think it\u2019s a good amendment, and I want some clarity on behalf of the Minister. I think this House deserves it and I am going to read it verbatim: \u201CFor the purpose of deciding whether the activity is necessary to enable the lessee or licensee to exercise their rights and obligations under the lease or licence, the Commissioner may consider the extent to which granting consent enables the lessee or licensee to maintain the historical financial performance of the pastoral farming enterprise.\u201D For that express purpose, I go back to my previous question, which was talking about inherent value. Minister, can you please, for the sake of everyone in this Chamber and those that would choose to be listening at home, explain what \u201Cinherent value\u201D means? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7c03249971f4a9d9d67fb4a54e78ee6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7c03249971f4a9d9d67fb4a54e78ee6\u0022\u003EKIERAN McANULTY (Chief Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u002207e835e02567452c95df2df4f1c6dd33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207e835e02567452c95df2df4f1c6dd33\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Well, look, I want to pick up where the member Mark Cameron left off in speaking about the amendment in my name, labelled (C) on the Table. This relates to clause 8 of the bill and the proposed new section 12(3), and my amendment would delete the proposed new section 12(3) and replace it with clause 12(3) in the words that Mark Cameron read out. So I\u2019m not going to repeat them for the benefit of the committee, but they are there on the tabled amendment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EWhat\u2019s really at the nub of this amendment is uncovering the deeply cynical sinking-lid policy that this Government and particularly the Green Party, who were the genesis of this piece of legislation, want to impose on the lessees of high-country pastoral Crown leases. And it\u2019s to do with this, Madam Chair: the bill as drafted operates as a sinking lid on these lease operations, and, over time, the plan buried deep in this section is to actually undermine the viability of the very farming operation that the leases provide the leaseholders with. So the results of this bill, by precluding the commissioner from considering the economics of farming, except to the extent that the benefits relate to the ongoing financial viability of the farming enterprise\u2014what that really means is that the farm actually has to be going broke or bust before the economics of the farm can even be considered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ENow, that\u2019s the secret hidden agenda of this legislation. The Greens, in particular, supported by the Labour Party in this Parliament, who have an absolute majority, actually don\u2019t want these leaseholders on the Crown pastoral-lease land; they want them gone. They want them gone, and the real time bomb in this legislation is within that clause, because that\u2019s the sinking lid. So in order for the considerations to be undertaken by the commissioner, it\u2019s very apparent that the economics of the farming operation have to be so dire, so bad, and so concerning that they must be literally on their last legs before the economics of the farm can be considered. And that\u2019s just absolutely an abomination.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo all the fine words that the Minister has put into his contribution actually belie what is buried deep in the fine print of this legislation. And so my question to the Minister is: why can\u2019t the economics of the farming operation be taken into account at an earlier stage, and why is it that this sinking-lid policy has been hidden\u2014buried\u2014in the fine detail of this legislation, hoping that nobody would discover it until it was far too late?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8aaff157a23465290aa77cdd2be2af6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8aaff157a23465290aa77cdd2be2af6\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to ask the Minister, the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor, about the amendment in my name which would propose to amend the amendments section 2 in clause 6 regarding inherent values. In the current amendments to section 2, \u201Cinherent value\u201D means \u201Ca value that arises from an ecological, a landscape, a cultural, a heritage, or a scientific attribute or characteristic of a natural resource that\u2014(i) is in or forms part of the land or exists by virtue of the natural character of the land; or (ii) relates to a historic place on or forming part of the land;\u201D but, as one of my colleagues earlier said, strangely \u201Cdoes not include a pastoral farming activity\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThe amendment in my name would amend the definition of \u201Cimprovements\u201D by inserting, after \u201Cincludes\u201D, \u201Cthe managed regeneration of indigenous vegetation\u201D. This would insert a new defined term, in its appropriate alphabetic order: \u201Cmanaged regeneration of indigenous vegetation means regeneration resulting from active\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224af03632303e4912816b43dfaed8d939\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: We are still considering Part 1 of the bill. The amendment the member is speaking to is contained in Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u002207bb43a09c714e4888744054af26fa04\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207bb43a09c714e4888744054af26fa04\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Speaking to Part 1 and speaking to Barbara Kuriger\u2019s amendment, which amends clause 8 of the bill, and it relates to Government policy that relates to nationally applicable environmental standards, Minister, such as national policy standards and national environmental standards. Now, this comes back to the heart of decision making at the centre of the bill, Minister. So, Minister, I have two questions for you as I realise we\u2019re getting to the point of the debate where it\u2019s important that there\u2019s absolute clarity for those watching and for those who\u2019ll be affected by the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo the first question is, Minister, do you consider that Land Information New Zealand (LINZ) officials and the Commissioner of Crown Lands are better equipped to make decisions about how to manage ecosystems under Crown pastoral lease than the farmers who manage that land and depend on that land to actually produce a living for their families? That\u2019s question one. Do you believe that LINZ and the Commissioner of Crown Lands are better equipped to make decisions about environmental management than the people who actually live on the land?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThe second question is around clause 5, around decision making. It says that the Crown \u201Cmust recognise and provide for the [interests] of M\u0101ori\u201D when it is making decisions about discretionary consents for pastoral activities, commercial recreation permits, any easements, or operation of stock. That is of great concern to many people in New Zealand at this time\u2014that unelected iwi M\u0101ori interests will also have decision making over resource consents for farming activities. It\u2019s explicit in the bill, Minister. It\u2019s explicit in the bill. So, Minister, my second question is, will you rule out that iwi M\u0101ori groups will not have decision making over consenting for Crown pastoral land consent applications? Because, Minister, if you won\u2019t rule it out, then that\u2019s another can of worms that your Government has ripped open. You\u2019re going to have to explain not just to the farmers on Crown pastoral leases, you\u2019re going to have to explain to all the farmers of New Zealand what\u2019s coming for them next. Should they expect this to be a part of the Natural and Built Environments Bill that your Minister, David Parker, is bringing to this House this week?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00223b9bc231827241358b9e65f3f44b64b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b9bc231827241358b9e65f3f44b64b4\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022422deb5d9b2a49b9ad90fc38dd30c21b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022422deb5d9b2a49b9ad90fc38dd30c21b\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to address the amendment in the name of my colleague Nicola Grigg\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ad89469cf734f358b87abe5f0c1c048\u0022\u003ENicola Grigg\u003C/span\u003E: Cool\u2014that\u2019ll be good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b72a1cd1190a487ebf80ecc87de6c00e\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014yes, it\u2019s a very good amendment\u2014and it relates to clause 8 of the bill and new section 11(3)(aa). The amendment proposes to delete paragraph (aa) and replace it with a new paragraph (aa), which reads: \u201Cmay consider any offsetting proposed as a way of counterbalancing adverse effects on inherent values, when determining the level of adverse effects on inherent values;\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThis is designed specifically so that environmental offsetting done on the pastoral lease property can actually be taken into account when the commissioner considers decisions relating to the mitigation of any adverse effects from a proposed discretionary activity. Now, it seems to me to be utterly logical that if in cornerstone legislation such as the zero carbon legislation and other climate pieces of legislation and, indeed, other environmental pieces of legislation, offsetting is permitted\u2014indeed, encouraged\u2014then why would it be excluded from this piece of legislation other than simply to further reinforce the narrative that this is a Government that actually does not want these farmers to succeed in any possible way, because the practical effect of this position is to ensure that farmers do not undertake any discretionary activity which will produce a net benefit to the inherent values of the pastoral lease. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESurely that kind of activity, that kind of environmental offsetting\u2014for instance, it might be the development or the maintenance or the enhancement of a wetland area on the property. Now, why wouldn\u2019t that restoration programme of a wetland area, which would by definition perhaps inherently involve earth disturbance requiring the commissioner\u2019s consent\u2014why would not that good environmental work be allowed for and provided for? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m keen to know why the Minister has excluded that possibility and why he\u2019s already indicated that his party, using their absolute majority in this current Parliament, will not accept the provisions of the very sensible amendment that Nicola Grigg has put before this committee for its consideration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022419e165fd73b4838a667b9e4b4d8cf10\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022419e165fd73b4838a667b9e4b4d8cf10\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: I call\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c38cd5401b064bbb9e8bf9aa138a5265\u0022\u003EChris Penk\u003C/span\u003E: Simon Court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022542f0c6f0fd547759a7bf744b4d80bf8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014Simon Court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00225c9593f715a045bebee09206de6f5a98\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c9593f715a045bebee09206de6f5a98\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, I do appreciate the call and the challenge with so many Simons in this 53rd Parliament\u2014and the challenge that brings everybody.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, I put two questions to you before. They\u2019re serious questions. They\u2019re questions that are not just for the people affected by this bill, the lessees, and those who assist them with preparing for and applying for resource management consents\u2014which they are already required to do under the Resource Management Act. I\u2019m talking about those farm consultants, those legal advisers, those technical experts in soil science who have to put applications for resource consents together, who will now actually be tapped out having to put consent applications on behalf of lessees to Land Information New Zealand (LINZ) and the Commissioner of Crown Lands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo my question to you, Minister, is: look, do you think any of this is actually necessary? And do you think that if it is necessary to have a parallel consenting regime, of course, as the landowner, the Crown, of course, should have final decision-making over what goes on on their land if it is going to seriously devalue or damage the land? That should be the right of every property owner, and any property owner engaging in a commercial leasing arrangement\u2014which is what this is\u2014would of course have those clauses in the lease which set out their decision making. But, Minister, the level of decision making that LINZ and the Commissioner of Crown Lands are required to undertake under this bill is quite extraordinary, and it essentially mirrors the type of consent, consideration, and processing under the Resource Management Act which these farmers and operators are already required to undertake.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, my two questions are: is this necessary; do LINZ and the Commissioner of Crown Lands have any more capability to make a decision about environmental management than the farmers who run the land and their expert advisers? And secondly, does this legislation give decision making to unelected iwi M\u0101ori groups, which it appears to say, under M\u0101ori interests in clause 5(1)(a), \u201Crecognise and provide for\u201D? Minister, that\u2019s an important question. I would appreciate it if you answer it for the benefit of the committee tonight. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022536005cbb139423ca10e5d16d520b99d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022536005cbb139423ca10e5d16d520b99d\u0022\u003E Hon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Minister for Land Information):\u003C/span\u003E No, it doesn\u2019t. In order to clarify the member\u2019s second question, of course we have to pay respect to tangata whenua\u2014for the most part, it\u2019s Ng\u0101i Tahu in the South Island but Te Tau Ihu, in the top of the South Island, also has interests in some of these Crown pastoral leases. We have moved on\u2014if that member hasn\u2019t recognised\u2014to acknowledge the Treaty of Waitangi and M\u0101ori across all areas of our country. If he doesn\u2019t respect that, he shouldn\u2019t be here. What I say is that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdbf4911943b472db900c0cc8e6faced\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Chair. I\u2019d just like to remind the Minister that we are all elected members and we all have a right to be here. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d069d80cee08479eb0bf373168c370cc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: And I\u2019d like to just remind the member that, in terms of monitoring what happens in this Chamber, it is up to me to make that call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245e20c348cca4d9c887a4194ac98fc17\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. And I have the right to an opinion on the values of people who should be here. Can I just say that we must recognise and provide for the relationship; it does not mean that M\u0101ori have oversight of every single decision, and it\u2019s important to clarify that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EIf we come back to the question of who knows the land best, I acknowledge absolutely that those who have lived on the land know it really well. They\u2019ll also, in discussions with many of them\u2014and I\u2019d put to you that I\u2019ve been on more high-country leases than just about everyone in this House over the last 12 months, and I\u2019ll give you a list of them if you like. Can I say that, as we understand across other areas of the farming sectors, there\u2019s a lot that we don\u2019t know as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022895e950e19544562957ebd8daf31d5a3\u0022\u003EBarbara Kuriger\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, right! On your bike.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223712fb1945614d54bff80162b70fc9d1\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: And science is understanding\u2014well, water quality. I can guarantee that the member over there doesn\u2019t know as much as she should about the water quality in and around her many farms. Perhaps if we all did, we\u2019d have better management practices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022673c057d36d946dabca4ed73905dafc9\u0022\u003EBarbara Kuriger\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chair. About less than two weeks ago, that Minister was in one of my catchment groups and we were both there, together, where one of our farms is\u2014so just button off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c792a235c9e74fd2a4d053edc17f32a7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Can we please just keep the temperature down and let\u2019s not throw insults at each other across the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5ebbd0afb524eeb8d99c67ef9492da6\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, you\u2019ve made a ruling. But, under intense provocation from the Minister\u2014uncalled for provocation from the Minister\u2014my colleague Barbara Kuriger responded, as she is entitled to do, and I don\u2019t think she should be called out for it. But the Minister should be encouraged not to be unnecessarily provocative in a debate that shouldn\u2019t be taking place in the manner in which it is, led by him at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022773f7edb586c4534b2b60ec17e6e2287\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: That was what I was trying to encourage by saying let\u2019s not throw insults at each other across the Chamber. And that actually goes to both sides. Can we just calm down, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239f005fdcc3042cb9c152dc197ab9834\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. What goes around comes around and I\u2019d rather keep it on the straight. But I think it\u2019s important not to throw out accusations around this place\u2014that people on this side don\u2019t understand farming and people on that side do. There\u2019s a lot that we have to learn. When it comes to the question, from the member over there, about who knows best, it\u2019s a partnership arrangement between Land Information New Zealand, who have a lot of very knowledgeable and passionate people, about managing\u2014as guardians and custodians, and owner of the lands\u2014the rights of New Zealanders to ensure that those rights are enduring and that we don\u2019t cause unnecessary damage. The people on the land do know a lot\u2014absolutely. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ESo as we move forward, as we have done in this legislation, this has very much been part of a consultation discussion\u2014robust, some of it\u2014to get to a place where I think we\u2019ve got the balance about right. That is, some would wish us to continue with tenure review\u2014yes, I understand that\u2014but some actually just want certainty and to get on and to farm the land as their ancestors and others have done. That\u2019s what we\u2019re offering here through this legislation. Yes, there will be people who disagree with parts of it. But on all the contentious issues, I have had active, robust discussion with the High Country Accord, with many of the members in the lessees, and I\u2019ve tried to make the adjustments to get the balance right between the landowner, the people of New Zealand, and the lessees who have a perpetual right of renewal and the right to pasturage\u2014but not to soils, and not to some things that have been claimed in the committee. But, actually, as technology and as new opportunities, as innovations roll forward, we want to leave the door open for engagement and partnership arrangements that allow that innovation to be carried out on high-country leases. Indeed, that\u2019s what we will do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u002243841d43d5e4465b968be4bbf473b169\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243841d43d5e4465b968be4bbf473b169\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, I want to ask you about a point raised by the High Country Accord in their submissions regarding new section 100, where they said it\u2019s inherently discriminatory and contrary to the principle that all are equal before the law. They made the point that the fact that the offence provisions in new section 100 apply to just 150 properties and families is egregious. All New Zealanders should be equal before the law. The criminal law should be of general application and should not single out a group purely on account of their contractual relationship with the Crown. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EAnd they made the point that the fact that the lessee can be issued with an offence notice for removal for a wilding pine without consent, while his freehold neighbour cannot, or that the Department of Conservation as a neighbour simply chooses not to do so and is not accountable for the spread of the resulting seed, is submitted to be contrary to accepted principle of law. They made the point they\u2019re not aware of any other example of the Crown choosing to impose offence provisions upon those with whom it is in a contractual relationship for matters arising from that contract.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00222cb0719dcd03498ebfae413d11042ae1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222cb0719dcd03498ebfae413d11042ae1\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bf921ecc73744259b1ca0f166a004c5b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 42\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 32; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00227b22d85e8a134043b34628c3348a320e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b22d85e8a134043b34628c3348a320e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 1 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 129 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227e4fd7ca9ed54bd3974a09115e9009e9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 42\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 32; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022424cdacec08d4e1c8837baadc6babbf8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022424cdacec08d4e1c8837baadc6babbf8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Nicola Grigg\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 8 to replace new section 11(3)(aa) be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226c63d3b8537641868e8080a1668692e8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 42\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 32; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022a62279244dc44c2d87d676565dca6f08\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a62279244dc44c2d87d676565dca6f08\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Barbara Kuriger\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 8 to replace new section 11(3)(b) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221281007e1a5a4dfc981dc43e66358d87\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 42\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 32; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2522f696d5a40b88feffb918a07bfcb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2522f696d5a40b88feffb918a07bfcb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Scott Simpson\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 8 to replace new section 12(3) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f29ec77b21bb45f18c6bf5188527c8e8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 42\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 32; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022acac52e6d1b94249b7ef9d9dd85663c1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 42\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 32; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d40aa6491779477a959753fa0d1d6572\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to Land Act 1948\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002249c1751758594df6be6dce5482754c28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002249c1751758594df6be6dce5482754c28\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 2. This is the debate on clauses 17 to 22, which are amendments to the Land Act 1948. The question is that Part 2 stand part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa01fdf3b90944f39d9fe7684a9c9456\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa01fdf3b90944f39d9fe7684a9c9456\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, I wish to speak to the amendment in my name, which would be to add new clause 17A to amend section 2. And that would \u201C(1) Amend the definition of \u2018improvements\u2019 by inserting after \u2018includes\u2019:\u201D the words: \u201C\u2018the managed regeneration of indigenous vegetation\u2019.\u201D And section 2 would be amended to \u201CInsert a new defined term in its appropriate alphabetical order: managed regeneration of indigenous vegetation means regeneration resulting from active farm management decisions to promote the regeneration of indigenous vegetation whether by way of covenant, fencing, stock management practices, or otherwise\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ENow, I note, Minister, that one of the goals of this, as has been articulated, is to improve the environmental outcomes on farms. And although I note that the Minister has acknowledged that this is done by many, if not most\u2014and I would say all that I\u2019ve certainly come across\u2014if that is the goal then the Minister should support this, because this amendment would address the potential of Crown pastoral land to contribute to New Zealand\u2019s commitment to the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions; something that this Government has made a lot of noise about. In fact, it\u2019s likely to be making announcements next week that it\u2019s spending significant money in the Budget to encourage that. So if it\u2019s going to encourage it there, why not encourage it here on these huge estates\u2014this huge area of the South Island? The scale of the Crown pastoral land is approximately 1.2 million hectares. It provides the potential for lessees under this amendment to adopt farm management practices which would contribute to both greenhouse gas emissions and positive indigenous biodiversity outcomes, both things that I can only imagine that this Government must surely support, given all the noise it has made about its commitment to a reduction of carbon in our atmosphere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThe importance of indigenous biodiversity, which I think is something that this Government is contemplating considering\u2014why not address it here? This amendment would actually provide an opportunity for the Crown pastoral lessees to get some benefit out of actually actively managing positive indigenous biodiversity on the farms and by doing that actually provide a significant benefit to the country. This would require managed regeneration of indigenous vegetation to be recognised as a lessee-owned improvement. This proposed amendment would provide for that outcome. I note this Government is allowing others into the country to buy up farmland to encourage the planting of more forestry. So they\u2019ve encouraged carbon sequestration. Here we have many high country farms owned by generations of New Zealanders. Why not provide a mechanism for them to be able to take some benefit to actually achieving these same outcomes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022e69918bb0891437aa53687e6cba58e0b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e69918bb0891437aa53687e6cba58e0b\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Minister for Land Information):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll just speak to that because, on the face of it, it seems a reasonably sensible proposal. It\u2019s one that I\u2019m prepared to look at as we go forward but the High Country Accord has also put a similar proposal. It goes beyond, of course, pasturage; I guess it\u2019s restoration of indigenous. It\u2019s not planting exotic pines or exotic vegetation so it\u2019s in the middle there somewhere and I think that there needs to be more discussion in this area. I\u2019m not opposed to that, but I think there are far-reaching consequences of just including it here and how it might apply across other Crown land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ESo the member has raised, as the accord has, a legitimate question as we go forward, as we\u2019re looking at sequestration, as we\u2019re looking at utilisation of all land across New Zealand\u2014M\u0101ori-owned land, Crown land, private land of course\u2014to have more indigenous vegetation and exotics. So I commit to the member that this is an ongoing issue that will be considered, but I don\u2019t consider it appropriate to just insert it in the bill at this time without considering the far-reaching consequences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022 data-id=\u00225bbcfe5f98d24c738992741fcfca7396\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225bbcfe5f98d24c738992741fcfca7396\u0022\u003ENICOLA GRIGG (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Sorry, I\u2019ll just rearrange everything in front of me. I would like to speak to an amendment under my name seeking to amend clause 21A, and I\u2019d like to turn the Minister\u2019s mind to subsection (2A) and, if you wouldn\u2019t mind, just to clarify for him: \u201CIf the land under the lease or licence is pastoral land, the Commissioner must not consent to the transfer, sublease, or other disposal unless satisfied that the applicant has made reasonable endeavours to enhance public access to the land.\u201D It must be terribly embarrassing for the Government every now and then when private enterprise seeks to do its work for it, and in this case, the lessees have hired private lawyers to do the work for the Government, because here we have an apparent statutory conflict. So I\u2019d ask the Minister: what is the legislation that the leaseholder is required to prioritise here? Is it this bill or is it the health and safety Act? Which legislation has precedence, and what would you say, Minister, to a leaseholder who has to allow public access to gain or retain consent for an activity but, at the same time, is liable for any accidents that might happen on that property to someone who gains access?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6b004f2913042a88a093acf01c5e77a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6b004f2913042a88a093acf01c5e77a\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Minister for Land Information):\u003C/span\u003E The health and safety legislation is pretty clear around all farmland, and the landowners have to do all they reasonably can, of course, to alert people to potential dangers, and I don\u2019t see that there\u2019s any more danger here than for other farmland, where a large a number of farmers provide public access. The issue raised here was one of contention. It went back a number of years where a foreign landowner, effectively, blocked access to the high country through his particular property, and it raised the reality that the values of New Zealand farm owners and high country lessees and the values of foreigners were not always aligned. And so, God help us if the National Party ever get back into power again; they are most likely to consider the sale of New Zealand land to anyone, and that would be a real risk, and they then would open up the realities of that conflict of values.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EAnd because these are large blocks of land and because sometimes they do block access into other high country recreational areas\u2014it\u2019s not often, and I have to acknowledge the vast majority, if not practically all of the high country lessees have provided public access over the years, with a few exceptions. And so the question was, \u201CWell, should we intervene and demand public access?\u201D No, that was going a little too far. We said, \u201CWell, at the point of sale, then the public access, if it has been blocked, should be considered by the commissioner prior to approving the transfer.\u201D I think it\u2019s a reasonable proposition. I don\u2019t think there will be many situations like this at all in the future, but it\u2019s clear to know that there is a provision should public access be blocked through a property to the public estate at the back\u2014often it\u2019s the high country\u2014that, if that\u2019s blocked when it\u2019s transferred, then there\u2019s an opportunity to have a look at that situation. That\u2019s what this is about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u0022882ada6325e0484da068b34739d6c0f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022882ada6325e0484da068b34739d6c0f9\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I would also like to just comment and ask the Minister a question about clause 21A, amending section 89, and the changes there. In the bill as it was reported back from select committee, the commissioner must not consent to the transfer of a pastoral lease unless they were satisfied that the applicant had made reasonable endeavours to enhance public access. In the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 129, the burden has been changed and now it\u2019s the commissioner must consider whether requests for public access have been unreasonably refused by the lessee or licensee in the past. So there\u2019s a higher threshold around public access which actually benefits the leaseholder. Can I ask the Minister why this change was made from what was reported back from select committee? And was it the result of consultation with the High Country Accord or Federated Farmers or leaseholders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00225a57f4b38b50498ea2c4641cd3233509\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a57f4b38b50498ea2c4641cd3233509\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Minister for Land Information):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, all of the above. It was through thorough consultation with all the parties. Some exaggerated the dilemmas, and there weren\u2019t that many blocked access situations at all. There was a longstanding one; I\u2019m not going to go into the details of that. But actually the vast majority of lessees do provide that public access. That goodwill should be maintained, and I did not want to have overreach in this piece of legislation implying that every lessee was blocking access. That would be unfair, it\u2019s inaccurate, and I think the goodwill that has been established across almost all the leases should be maintained, and that\u2019s what we\u2019re trying to do here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u00222ab102679e614d118598f04d0cde7118\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ab102679e614d118598f04d0cde7118\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, I just wanted to speak to the tabled amendment in the name of my colleague Nicola Grigg, marked \u201CG\u201D on the Table. This would amend the bill, namely paragraphs 1 and 2 of Schedule 2, under Part 1 of proposed new Schedule 1AB, permitted activities, which were fundamentally \u201Cincapable of practical application. They will result in one or more of the following outcomes: Deterrence of sensible farm management practices being undertaken because of the cost and delay of an application process [and/or] Deferment of such applications and (in the case of weed control with consequential adverse effects) [and/or] Increased cost and delay in undertaking sensible farming practices [and/or] Undermined relationship between farmer and front-line officials. By way of example, the current Bill requires consent for the clearance of exotic weeds (e.g. gorse, broom, wilding pines)\u2014which are a significant issue across the South Island\u2014unless: The exotic pest plants comprises \u2018no less than 90% of the vegetation cover\u2019 and The Lessee has not controlled more than 25 hectares of exotic pest plants in the past 5 years. The obvious issues [with this] are: What is the 100% against which the 90% is to be measured. A single wilding pine or gorse bush in a paddock would seem not to comprise 90% of the vegetation cover of that paddock and therefore cannot be removed without an application for consent\u201D. So we\u2019re sort of seeing some of the confusion that can arise very, very quickly in adverse effects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EAnother question is, \u201CIs the 90% to be measured by area or by species\u201D? Another question is: \u201CIf you have a property of 10,000 hectares, a farmer is limited to controlling 25 hectares for pest plants in any five-year period (about 0.25% of the farm) whereas most farmers want to have an ongoing pest plant control programme\u201D. Another issue is: \u201CLeaseholders are under an obligation by the terms of the lease; local and regional plans; and the Biosecurity Act 1993 to control pest plants\u201D. So there\u2019s an inherent conflict there. Another issue is that \u201CThe proposed law requires leaseholders to obtain consent to perform what other law obliges them to do\u201D. So these proposed changes in this tabled amendment, Minister, would introduce some common sense to the bill and would make it understandable, and certainly ensure that we have the outcomes we want to see, which is pest plants being removed. We don\u2019t want to see another situation like up in the top of the North Island where wilding pines are out of control, and certainly other parts in my region and Central Otago, parts of Southland, with wilding pines have really got away. We want our high country farmers to have the tools to remove those quickly before they become a problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ESo this tabled amendment would \u201Canticipate the use by the Commissioner of farm plans to provide a more efficient mechanism for management oversight, and a practical framework for the management of specific pest plants.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u002211460697055a492da970f0a6fad84847\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211460697055a492da970f0a6fad84847\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to refer to the tabled amendment in my name, labelled \u201CE\u201D on the Table. It relates to a fairly fine point, but an important one none the less. So the tabled amendment seeks to, in Schedule 1 of the bill, propose a new Schedule 1AA 3(4), on page 40 of the bill. What this tabled amendment seeks to do is to replace the proposed clause 3(4) and replace it with the following words: \u201CNothing in this clause limits or affects the right of judicial review that a person may have in respect of the proposal or related review [of] a Court\u2019s ability to order that a tenure review [process] shall \u2026 as if this Act had not been passed or [made] other such orders as the Court sees fit.\u201D Now, that might sound a little complicated, so let me just take a minute or two to explain to the committee what is at issue here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThe issue, really, is that the bill as introduced extinguished the rights of lessees to tenure review and to apply to the High Court to review the decision-making process of the commissioner and, where relevant, if necessary, the Minister, as well. So, by ending tenure review, that process of providing an opportunity for a judicial review has been removed. So the bill as reported back from select committee actually responded to submissions on that very point. The bill now provides for review, but\u2014and it\u2019s a big but\u2014it provides no effective remedy to the review. So a successful High Court application could result in a finding that the Crown had acted unlawfully, but with the repeal of a tenure review, the court then would be unable to actually grant any practical remedy upon their finding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo this tabled amendment in my name addresses that deficiency and it ensures that where legal rights can be established, then a remedy\u2014an effective remedy, an appropriate remedy\u2014can indeed be ordered. I think that\u2019s just a bit of an error on behalf of the wordsmiths that did a little bit of drafting; I don\u2019t think there was any intent, in a sinister way, to remove that right to provide an effective remedy. But my tabled amendment provides for a remedy to be ordered when it is appropriate to do so by the court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022455b76c54ac248a5a8b5e297aaa82ad1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022455b76c54ac248a5a8b5e297aaa82ad1\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki - King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s probably the right time to follow on from Scott Simpson with his tabled amendment with another one here, which is the amendment labelled \u201CF\u201D on the Table. On page 41, it talks about no compensation being payable, so no compensation. It says under clause 6(1) of the bill, \u201CNo compensation is payable by the Crown\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221919f42bb794a8ab32433f4b44beffb\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chair. My understanding is that schedules are to be debated at the same time as the part to which they relate. Schedule 1 of the bill relates to Part 1 of the Crown Pastoral Land Act, which is, indeed, Part 1 of this bill, and this debate should have been held earlier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fb8a50ee64742298d41daf85bdbcc87\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: A point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c94df5c3f22447fbcafdd9240f3edf4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Just wait one second. I\u2019ll just get some advice on this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022315f5df5e02e4700b60404bede3cbb4a\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: A point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe2d50ecd5c743fe8f6673b72111aba7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Let me deal with the first point of order. So Dr Duncan Webb is indeed right. Schedule 1 should have been debated with Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdbff31e175c4ee19b19ec8b9a4b3fe7\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair, that\u2019s not the advice that we had when we started on this. In fact, the previous Chair said the number of tabled amendments that were included; it was five, as I recall, and in fact, she said that. So we followed that advice, and I think it would be most improper to not continue in that way, because I\u2019ve got a tabled amendment here I want to debate and we haven\u2019t spoken to those. I know the members are very uncomfortable on the other side, but that doesn\u2019t mean things shouldn\u2019t be done properly here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212f7e4acd9704849a54dd64344fdc2a6\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: A point of order, Madam Chair. I actually had the same reading as my colleague across the House earlier in the debate in Part 1, and I went to speak to a tabled amendment under my name, and I had a ruling from the then Chair that I would have until Part 2 to do so. So we have proceeded on the basis of that, and, as my colleague Stuart Smith just said before, it would be inherently unfair if we were then unable to speak to these tabled amendments, given the advice we were given previously that we could not speak to them under Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd1294f41ca7407eb781186720827367\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: I will allow for now for you to speak to the tabled amendments now, but the Clerk is going to go out and check with the previous Chair what her ruling was. But for now, I\u2019ll let you go ahead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8f28e0b5b5c421b9481cf3062d855dd\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. So I was actually speaking to the tabled amendment of Scott Simpson, which refers to clause 6 on page 41 of the bill, which says no compensation is payable. In clause 6(1), \u201CNo compensation is payable by the Crown for any loss or damage, or any adverse effect \u2026 or under any lease or \u2026 right [of] interest, arising from the enactment or operation of [this] amendment Act.\u201D Clause 6(2) says \u201CIf there is any inconsistency between this clause and any other enactment or rule of law, this clause prevails\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ENow, my colleague Scott Simpson has suggested on his amendment, and I agree with this, that compensation may be payable, and clause 6 should say, \u201CNothing in this Act precludes a court ordering that the Crown is liable to pay compensation in connection with a judicial review in respect of a proposal or related review, or for any loss or damage, or any adverse effect \u2026 or under any lease or other right of interest arising from the enactment or operation of the amendment Act.\u201D Now, if you\u2019re in a long-term\u2014and this has been a very long-term legal relationship with the Crown, and the Crown comes along and then changes the rules on the farmer and the farmer goes for a judicial review and the Crown is found to be incorrect, would it just not make good moral judgment for compensation to be able to be payable? So I\u2019d like the Minister to make a comment on that, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u002242a739a80ea94d8a9b35ab38dd5ada07\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242a739a80ea94d8a9b35ab38dd5ada07\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Well thank you, Madam Chair. It is a pleasure to get to speak on my amendment which is labelled \u201CI\u201D on the table. It is to amend Schedule 2 of the Crown Pastoral Land Reform Bill; a proposed new section 16 on page 43. It would strike out that one and have, \u201CMaintaining: a. existing consented roads, paths, or tracks (including laying local gravel); or b. roads, tracks, or paths for which no record of a consent having been issued is held by the Commissioner, but which was formed prior to 1990 and the Commissioner has not notified the lessee or licensee that the formation of that road, path or track required consent; and c. any such a road, path, or track by way of any necessary realignment following a weather, fire, or seismic event not involving more than 400m of formation of replacement road, track, or path.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ENow, the reason for this is quite simple. These places, and some have been farmed for 160 years\u2014they didn\u2019t have consents 160 years ago, and Land Information New Zealand might not have records for all of those tracks and almost certainly do not. It\u2019s just the way things are done. And yet this is sneaking something in, and an unintended consequence of this is that there are going to be a lot of activities that would have been normally carried out on a property that were not considered necessary to have consents in this bill\u2014because it\u2019s already in there\u2014but for this omission of these tracks that don\u2019t have consents. And what\u2019s more, if the Crown was concerned about that, the commissioner should have actually notified the property owner that those tracks, paths, etc., don\u2019t have consents, and they could have done something about it, but they haven\u2019t done that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ESo I think it\u2019s inherently unfair\u2014this is what we\u2019ve heard several times through this debate tonight\u2014and I\u2019m sure it\u2019s just an omission, just like the 90 percent is an omission as I alluded to before in new section 1(c), set out in Schedule 2: the invasive exotic pest plants comprise no less than 90 percent of vegetation cover. You see, you don\u2019t need a consent only if the ground is covered by 90 percent or more by an exotic pest. That is just, again, poor drafting. It\u2019s just a rushed bill, rushed through. The hearing of the submissions that came in\u2014well, they weren\u2019t really paid much attention to, I don\u2019t think. I think there could have been far more interaction between the Government members and some of the submitters but that just didn\u2019t happen. And you know, look, we can say why, but I think it\u2019s pretty obvious and I don\u2019t think there\u2019s any need to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EBut you\u2019ve got an opportunity now, Minister, to sort this out, and certainly in my case to support this amendment\u2014a very good one. Minister Damien O\u2019Connor, I know that you do have a fair streak running through you, and this is very fair, and I think that you should vote for this. I think you should also answer the question I asked you before, about 90 percent, where you didn\u2019t come back to that\u2014we need to hear that. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022a92f5d9b6fef40fbb7be1b699b63b5bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a92f5d9b6fef40fbb7be1b699b63b5bf\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Minister for Land Information):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a bit late for that member. This bill went from the House into select committee, where I and other members were open to proper discussion and consideration of these kinds of issues. No, the Opposition chose to just oppose the bill in its entirety rather than work through to improve the bill where things like this might have been considered properly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EOne of the issues raised by the members over there; and it\u2019s something I\u2019ve looked at, the one of permitted, discretionary, and banned. These are extensive lists. I\u2019ve made the point before about, actually, the National Government\u2019s legislation mean they all had to be discretionary. But I come back to a very small list of prohibited activities. I won\u2019t dwell on those, but can I come back to the one of controlling invasive, exotic plant pests\u2014the area involved does not exceed 25 hectares in any five-year period. That issue has not been brought to my attention before. Indeed, by submitters\u2014and I\u2019ve talked to the accord on a number of occasions and Land Information New Zealand have been listening\u2014and indeed the select committee could have made a recommendation on that and it could very well have been changed. But no, the Opposition just chose to belligerently oppose this bill and not do what it should do on behalf of the lessees and to make the adjustments necessary. I was open to any of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ECan I say that all the Opposition did is came back and said, \u201CWe oppose the bill.\u201D Can I say that at the heart of the progression here will be the implementation of farm plans. That, I think, is something that the high country farmers are welcoming. It\u2019s an opportunity to work through\u2014many of them will have extensive farm plans in place. Some won\u2019t. But it\u2019s an opportunity to work through all these issues, and where there might be a situation where more than 25 hectares of control is required, then I would expect the commissioner working through that farm plan to approve that\u2014if it\u2019s sensible, with the proper mitigations or whatever. This is the kind of sensible approach that we will take moving forward to working in partnership with those high country farmers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002221b5427feb134a8fb0a797e55161e660\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221b5427feb134a8fb0a797e55161e660\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: I would like to make a ruling in terms of Part 1 and Part 2 and the amendments. The previous Chair did allow calls to be made on Schedules 1 and 2 during her time on the Chair with the debate on Part 1. I did follow it a little bit from my room. There was probably about up to an hour and a half spent on Part 1, and I do recall one of the things that the Chair at the time said was that she encouraged members to take calls on the amendments, because it had been nearly an hour and the amendments had not actually been discussed. I\u2019ve given members some leeway to take calls on the schedules during Part 2, but I\u2019m now ruling that this debate will only be on Part 2 and the amendments to it from this point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EThe question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 2 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 129 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b2ce9d65bcd14df58d415f372152146a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 42\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 32; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002204da541d22594392916571b14ab6a7cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204da541d22594392916571b14ab6a7cc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Joseph Mooney\u2019s tabled amendment to insert a new clause 17A be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221231ee7399f64458a907fc4cf1c32f54\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 42\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 32; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022128646f038844629a92a6883ae5e3cca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022128646f038844629a92a6883ae5e3cca\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Nicola Grigg\u2019s tabled amendment to delete clause 21A(3) is out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b0647ba3e2894c48ad15c65a48b4ab9d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 42\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 32; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000739\u0022\u003EThe result corrected after originally being announced as Ayes 77, Noes 43.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022411312c20ebc4b67933e15c64e71f552\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022411312c20ebc4b67933e15c64e71f552\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment to Schedule 1 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 129 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002214f25fbf6c29477bb62073bba84ebd8d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 42\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 32; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000741\u0022\u003EThe result corrected after originally being announced as Ayes 77, Noes 43.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002201b9ff6721604129994c5199e615cfb6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201b9ff6721604129994c5199e615cfb6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Scott Simpson\u2019s tabled amendment to Schedule 1, new Schedule 1AA, to replace clause 3(4) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002208de84798f7348afa0b780128bd1ba8d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 42\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 32; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00221d960863c3494720ac114189b0c0f7c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d960863c3494720ac114189b0c0f7c1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Scott Simpson\u2019s tabled amendment to Schedule 1, new Schedule 1AA, to replace clause 6 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022baa5772be0274221916463c656fc715d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 42\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 32; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220861e6702fb246c28cb8fc8b65962900\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 42\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 32; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022725c2146dac1483698260d5ad6d5a30e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022725c2146dac1483698260d5ad6d5a30e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Schedule 2 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 129 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022df4191d204404a6abf51d45fa10adae8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments to Schedule 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 42\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 32; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8733b7df8e049e68a4b5310bb35926c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8733b7df8e049e68a4b5310bb35926c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Nicola Grigg\u2019s tabled amendment to Schedule 2, new Schedule 1AB, to replace items 1 and 2 with new items 1 and 2(c) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022173e41aca3ba4b35b605c0efbab0f61b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 42\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 32; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022525c993a4463449d81c534b55a89b5f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022525c993a4463449d81c534b55a89b5f7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Scott Simpson\u2019s tabled amendment to Schedule 2, new Schedule 1AB, to replace item 14 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002263b636cbbc184546ad005cdffc85cee6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 42\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 32; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00227fcb137d244f430baa3e7180481eba1b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227fcb137d244f430baa3e7180481eba1b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Stuart Smith\u2019s tabled amendment to Schedule 2, new Schedule 1AB, to replace item 16 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224fe74e8411344784af9050c03dc168c4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 42\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 32; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002209424a2b51f34c22a8369a9c9b39f7d1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 42\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 32; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228c4eb45274214ca18cdf35c6adc48ac3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 42\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 32; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228f9537a3135b4b0da524d57ce9743983\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002282803561130a4cc4b4e9595f8014d6d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282803561130a4cc4b4e9595f8014d6d7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to our final debate. This is the debate on clauses 1 and 2, the title and commencement debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1d3bf4b941f48808ad02352de3020aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1d3bf4b941f48808ad02352de3020aa\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I think the name of this bill should be changed to the \u201CCrown Pastoral Land Reform (No Need to Have a Committee Stage) Bill\u201D. It was quite clear from the Minister\u2019s speech before\u2014they\u2019re rattled, aren\u2019t they? They\u2019re rattled. I don\u2019t know what\u2019s happened there. Maybe they got a bad poll, I don\u2019t know, but they\u2019re all a bit prickly tonight. But the Minister\u2019s spent quite a bit of time saying there was no need to have a committee stage\u2014no need; it comes out of the select committee and it doesn\u2019t need to have a committee stage. And then he has the audacity to have a Supplementary Order Paper himself. Well, I know he\u2019s not a new member, but I don\u2019t know, do they still run those classes for new members? Perhaps we can get him a bit of a refresher so he can understand how this works. And then poor old Duncan Webb, doing the voting, getting up [Member speaks with tired voice]: \u201C65 votes in favour.\u201D The poor guy, he needs a bloody Red Bull to vim him up a bit, you know. I think their attitude today says it all. It\u2019s a poor bill. It\u2019s got a poor name, and it needs to change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u00224750394bdd6343feb97e0bd0d3dc81a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224750394bdd6343feb97e0bd0d3dc81a3\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thanks very much. I would like to add to that, actually, in talking about debating the name of the bill, I think an appropriate name would be \u201CTo Remove the Inherent Value From All New Zealand Farmers Bill\u201D because this speaks to the very thing that has eroded 150 years of trust in rural New Zealand. It\u2019s an absolute disgrace. I think it\u2019s an apt name for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3038137d4f74bdc93460ad4b2b352ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3038137d4f74bdc93460ad4b2b352ba\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that clause 1 stand part. All those in favour say Aye, to the contrary No. The Ayes have it. A party vote has been called for. The Clerk will conduct a party vote. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022fff0d1e7fe234047a74dc8688a8d1e22\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fff0d1e7fe234047a74dc8688a8d1e22\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Chairperson. There is a prescribed way of voting in this House and I hope that\u2019s going to be taken into account in the vote count.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022673a6eaad83640088c7562c4e12be911\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022673a6eaad83640088c7562c4e12be911\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for pointing that out, the Hon David Parker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bfc2f24295674fcfb8ed33d482efb067\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 42\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 32; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ebb4a6849fd94c36815c2e9f6d7918a6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 42\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 32; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000755\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002256fb18b31d12409eb0cfb8e07de57185\u0022\u003EMaritime Powers Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cd797f6aabe4453587ee4da7f38a2827\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6d853c69e054a879cf2000ec1a2b665\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6d853c69e054a879cf2000ec1a2b665\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to the Maritime Powers Bill. I remind members that they are able to participate remotely. If you\u2019re on the Zoom and want to make a call, please type \u201Ccall\u201D into the chat. You should also use the chat if you\u2019d like to raise a point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EIf we receive new tabled amendments, I\u2019ll advise members so that they can refresh the House papers page to see the new amendment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EFinally, it\u2019d be helpful for members to ask multiple questions if they have them. The members are in charge of the call. The Ministers are here to answer your questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022020ea6dd101f421397b23f094ebf6d90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022020ea6dd101f421397b23f094ebf6d90\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I have discussed with the other whips and I seek leave that this bill be considered as one part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00228283bd86b1d944ffa7d5f62146789a69\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228283bd86b1d944ffa7d5f62146789a69\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. I take it that that has been agreed to. We shall discuss this bill as one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222c2f8d3f7e5846958fec7d565b38e78b\u0022\u003EParts 1 to 3, Schedules 1 and 2, and clauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00225f1750b0292540e3b2d356f295b81a5a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f1750b0292540e3b2d356f295b81a5a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Parts 1 to 3, Schedules 1 and 2, and clauses 1and 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EI call on the Hon Gerry Brownlee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c3c845379324abdbf129fbce63cac8b\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, sorry. You\u2019ve got the Minister first I think.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00222ea737e515654160bb6e33b3d8c389ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ea737e515654160bb6e33b3d8c389ac\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: I call on the Hon Minister Nanaia Mahuta.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u0022631738b5704849699288a45aca720cdf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022631738b5704849699288a45aca720cdf\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I want to thank the honourable member for allowing me to open up the committee stages of the Maritime Powers Bill. Can I just, by way of introduction to the committee stage, acknowledge and thank the select committee for their careful deliberations and also helpful suggestions to amend the bill, the officials in the Parliamentary Counsel Office also in their deliberations. The committee received seven written submissions on the bill from the New Zealand Port Company CEO Group, New Zealand Council for Civil Liberties, the Privacy Commissioner, and the New Zealand Law Society, and three individuals. It\u2019s evident in many of the submissions and the way in which the select committee discussed elements of the bill that they took on board some of those recommendations and went further to ensure that we are achieving the intent and purpose of legislation that can extend enforcement powers into international waters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EWhen the bill was introduced to the House, it was clearly stated by the Government that there was a need to ensure that there was consistency in the way that our domestic laws were being applied in terms of enforcement powers into the international waters. I had to go over many of the initial comments made by members across the House to ensure that we were addressing many of the concerns that had been raised. Can I say that there was a number of issues that were raised by members in terms of the classes of enforcement officers. I note the member, the spokesperson for foreign affairs in the Opposition, the Hon Gerry Brownlee, raised the issue of whether or not Department of Conservation (DOC) officers should be considered as enforcement officers. But when we think about the range of activities that take place in relation to the trafficking of endangered species and the way in which both the Wildlife Act and also the trafficking of endangered species are undertaken not only on terrestrial spaces but in international waters\u2014the extension of enforcement powers seems to be a natural progression.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EHowever, I see from the range of advice that the committee was provided, there was a clear articulation of the range of powers and the subsequent acts that were being recognised in the bill. And I\u2019m anticipating if there are questions of this area, it will be based on the advice that the select committee received. Also, in relation to the no need for warrants to be issued, this is consistent with the way in which search and seizure surveillance powers continue to exist. But again, that received a thorough, I understand, hearing and discussion in the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EWhat I wanted to, I guess, assure members\u2014certainly of the Green Party, because their position was well understood prior to the introduction of this bill\u2014is that there was a thorough discussion around warrantless aspects of the enforcement provisions when the Search and Surveillance Bill was being put through the House. I recall, when we debated the Search and Surveillance Act, that this was and continues to remain an issue for the Greens. Again, I note it because it was a matter that was discussed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EAlso, can I just say at a practical level\u2014and I have to put my practical hat on, because the proof of the way in which enforcement powers are intended to exist are based on its application. And it would never be the case in international waters that these powers would exist in isolation. So by that I mean is that the range of enforcement officers, Customs officers, the police, DOC rangers and the like, they would be working together and in concert in terms of making a pre-assessment of utilising the powers that are in this particular Act to enable the collection of evidence, to undertake stopping a vessel, searching a vessel, and collecting evidence for the purposes of the prosecution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThe other point I would raise is that I understand that the committee fully exhausted the discussion around the criminal nature of the offence, and that in itself is a high threshold by which to invoke the powers. Again, I thank the committee for their effort and their helpful recommendations to improve the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002246113e01b1df43179c1df4e1e79190bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246113e01b1df43179c1df4e1e79190bb\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Can I thank the Minister for beginning a discussion on the issue of who may exercise the powers under this bill. It is the one area that the National Party has some concern about. It won\u2019t stop us supporting the bill through the balance of its House stages but I think, given that courts these days will often derive some of their determinations around the law from what is said in Parliament, then I think there needs to be a greater articulation by the Minister of exactly what the limits are on the powers of non-sworn officers of the Crown\u2014in other words, on Customs officers, on the Department of Conservation (DOC) rangers, and any others who might be included in that body of enforcement officers that the broad term \u201Cenforcement officer\u201D is used for here in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EWhile we would have some concern about the power being extended to people who are outside of the usual range of what we might consider policing, just imagine if one of those officers did engage in what might be an arrest situation, something that leads to a charge being laid, but a question was raised about the jurisdictional rights of that officer to undertake the enforcement they had. Would that be a good thing or not? It would be a bad thing in my opinion, so I think the Minister needs to articulate a little bit further exactly what the constraints are and what the extensions are of powers that will be or could be undertaken by those enforcement officers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI\u2019d say it\u2019s also a little bit odd, I think, that DOC officers are considered to be\u2014or DOC rangers can be considered as having these powers when, in fact, it would be expected that, firstly, the surveillance system in New Zealand would have identified a ship that might be engaged in some kind of criminal activity or might be the harbinger of criminal activity and therefore when a pursuit took place that there would be appropriately capable police on board regardless of whether there was Defence involved. But then the reality for New Zealand is that in a pursuit like that Defence will always be involved. So I don\u2019t quite understand why there needs to be the extension to DOC officers, to DOC rangers, as proposed in the bill. I have to say that, notwithstanding the excellent work done by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade lawyers, what has been provided to us was more about the fact of what might happen rather than a specific reason for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ESo with those comments, I\u2019d ask the Minister to just expand for the Hansard record, for a place that the court might refer to should there be a question about jurisdictional rights for enforcement officers, to get some clear steer on what certainly the Government believes is the situation but also to elaborate or to make it clear exactly what the Parliament is going to express at the point that the third reading of this bill passes. I\u2019ll leave it for the Minister to comment there. I have a number of other questions that I\u2019d like to put to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u00221083658dcaf34c4fa9623bbcd4bfb8ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221083658dcaf34c4fa9623bbcd4bfb8ac\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the helpful, I guess, clarification of the extent of the concern. Can I firstly make a comment in relation to the role of the New Zealand Defence Force\u2014more than likely, highly probable, highly likely that it will be a defence vessel that will be undertaking the activity to pursue an identified vessel that will be of interest for a specific set of reasons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EIn terms of the ongoing comments around the suitability of Department of Conservation (DOC) rangers, I think we have to keep in mind that the relevant expertise of each class of enforcement officers is a high consideration. So I am aware that the select committee received a table of advice setting out the comparable powers of each class of enforcement officers and what they are able to do. So, for example, DOC warranted officers and rangers have comparable powers under the Wildlife Act 1953, which enabled them to stop any vehicle or boat, enter or board it, search it, seize evidential material, detain a person, and arrest a person. Similarly, DOC endangered species officers, who have powers under the Trade in Endangered Species Act 1989, have powers to stop a vehicle, which includes a ship, enter or board it, search it, seize evidence, detain a person, and arrest a person. And so it goes through the relevant class of enforcement officers including Customs and the relevant Act, the New Zealand Defence Force and the relevant Act, and, in this case, the Fisheries Act and the Crown Minerals Act, also the Wildlife Act and the Maritime Crimes Act, and also the Police, who have comparable powers under the Search and Surveillance Act. It sets out very clearly the range of Acts that provide those identified enforcement officers with the subsequent powers that they can exercise into national waters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003ECan I also go back and say, specifically with regards to DOC rangers and their particular powers, they have expertise in terms of their knowledge of the Wildlife Act and the Trade in Endangered Species Act. And that is as you would expect; they have expertise under those particular Acts. The New Zealand Police Force have expertise under their subsequent Acts, and so do Customs officers. So, for that reason, it\u2019s going to be important that they act\u2014as I said previously\u2014in concert to undertake a pre-assessment of the nature of their concern with a particular vessel; it could be in relation to human trafficking, wildlife and endangered species trafficking, drug trafficking. But in concert and as a collective, they will undertake an assessment and, then, collectively exercise the full level of responsibilities that they have as enforcement officers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022d809d2de669748e5bdf75c95201d3789\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d809d2de669748e5bdf75c95201d3789\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Well, look, that\u2019s sort of helpful. But can I ask a very specific question, then: are the powers of people, other than the New Zealand Police, limited to the Act under which they are able to already exercise enforcement powers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5422b6eeae5439fa57e38074744831f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5422b6eeae5439fa57e38074744831f\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I\u2019ve been enjoying the discussion between Minister Nanaia Mahuta and the Hon Gerry Brownlee. I think, as Mr Brownlee has articulated, this is a really key area for the committee itself to understand, with the implication, of course, that courts might be called upon in the future\u2014and, in fact, inevitably will be\u2014to consider the question. So to have some clarity provided through this process would I think be helpful indeed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI note that the Minister is diligently taking some advice on that particular exchange, so I\u2019ll take the opportunity of raising perhaps a couple of separate questions. They might be less important, but nevertheless they\u2019re important to me. So I\u2019ll just put them out into the ether in any case, and we\u2019ll see what we get back, which may or may not be, of course, tonight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EMy question was actually in regard to the role that the Attorney-General will play in relation to possible prosecutions. I note that the Attorney-General himself\u2014the current version thereof\u2014is in the Chamber, and I prefaced my remarks by saying, of course, that I don\u2019t cast aspersions on any person who holds that office. The intention merely is to understand the way that those powers would be exercised, and particularly that kind of chicken-and-egg scenario that we\u2019ve got whereby, as the select committee articulated, the Attorney-General\u2019s consent is needed for proceedings for trial and punishment of a person\u2014to use their phrase\u2014but nevertheless certain actions leading up to that can take place in the meantime and perhaps in anticipation of such consent, notwithstanding that such consent hadn\u2019t at that time been sought, let alone given. I presume that the reason for that is because it might be out on the high seas or in these various areas in the water delineated by the exclusive economic zone, the territorial sea, and so forth, and that it\u2019s not practical to reach out to the Attorney-General and gain his or her\u2014as the case may be\u2014consent to those proceedings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EBut I do think it is an important question, given that as the Minister herself has acknowledged, search and seizure can take place without a warrant. Of course, again, it wouldn\u2019t be reasonable for me to suggest that the ordinary course of events on New Zealand land would take place such as a justice of the peace, or a judge or the like, would give consent, for example, to a search. So, again, I don\u2019t wish to make comments that could be regarded as a suggestion that\u2019s not practicable on the waters, but nevertheless I did think it would be helpful to have some explanation from the Minister on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI note that she appears ready, willing, and able to comment perhaps in response to the exchange that she and the Hon Gerry Brownlee have had, so to allow time for that this evening, I\u2019ll hold fire on any further questions or comments I might have, Madam Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022a90472557b3847f9adb91aa062523db8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a90472557b3847f9adb91aa062523db8\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m sure the Minister will respond to questions asked in a few minutes. Look, the other thing that is a little bit interesting is the issue of permission from flag States. So I\u2019d like the Minister just to explain how that regime works, because, as you read the bill, we are saying that we want to have powers to prevent or to take enforcement action against anybody committing any illegal activity on a ship inside New Zealand\u2019s territorial seas, and then for any event that occurs in that space to extend the jurisdiction out into international waters, as well. The question then becomes: is the bill contradicting itself by requiring that the permission to take an action against anybody on a ship requires the permission of the flag State for the vessel? Now, if the reading of this legislation actually gives a contraposition, then I\u2019d like the Minister to make that clear if that\u2019s at all possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe other question that I think has just been answered\u2014or, really, perhaps not has been answered but will be answered by the Minister in relation to the continuation of powers, which my colleague just raised, which is the issue of: where does the stop and start occur on all of this? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe bill itself has been amended, and it would be good for the Minister to just explain exactly how that amendment gives effect to the proposal which means that if a pursuit is started in international waters or inside New Zealand\u2019s territorial sea, then the powers of arrest, containment, etc., exist right up to the time that it is berthed inside a New Zealand port. The question is: what happens at that point? Are those charges then, effectively, laid before the courts in New Zealand? Who actually makes the arrest? Is the arrest made by the officer in the first place? Is there a handover to Corrections or is there a handover to the New Zealand Police? Exactly how that works is a question that it would be useful for the Minister to answer. As I\u2019ve said before, this is a bill that is necessary. New Zealand is an island nation. We are surrounded by one of the biggest territorial seas of any nation in the world. For us to have this sort of provision is important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe other thing that would be useful for the Minister to explain would be the reference to aircraft inside a maritime bill. It might be very obvious to some of us who\u2019ve been through that. We all know that the use of drones, etc., is going to become more and more prominent as time goes on, but the explanation about how it fits into a maritime bill would also be quite a useful thing, I think, for the public record as we move forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc892593e77447a6b96b257361c6d59f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc892593e77447a6b96b257361c6d59f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The time has come for me to report progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ee0df3a6b64f4751a18818dc73660684\u0022\u003EReport of Committee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002258ef8067986f409eaec44b41c0027dcc\u0022\u003EReport of Committee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00224e13e7514b924dfdbfc2d91eddeb9315\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e13e7514b924dfdbfc2d91eddeb9315\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Retail Payment System Bill and reports it without amendment. The committee has also considered the Crown Pastoral Land Reform Bill and reports it with amendment. The committee has also considered the Maritime Powers Bill and reports progress. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228da0e701021046a1b29fcd217daa6669\u0022\u003EVoting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002248d3a9d16ff14d0484295c75b2b130fe\u0022\u003ECorrection\u2014Plant Variety Rights Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00227f38d14e8abb419588b98cc07b883707\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f38d14e8abb419588b98cc07b883707\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, before we adjourn for the day, during the vote on the second reading of the Plant Variety Rights Bill, the vote for the Ayes was incorrectly recorded as 108 votes. The correct vote was 107 in favour. The record will be corrected. The House stands adjourned until 2 p.m. tomorrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220510567c246a0bff4153ace42cde13994398000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 9.58 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"