"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221211123621534f52ac9a98c3b465b4d7\u0022\u003EWEDNESDAY, 10 AUGUST 2022\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225df975d4b6274d448c5920a5a2948136\u0022\u003EWEDNESDAY, 10 AUGUST 2022\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e6393af8471a4e17a163698e493cb42c\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223051172b46bf424eb77753edd65b077e\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002259de8bcdd0b24b4880f57fa55dcf73c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259de8bcdd0b24b4880f57fa55dcf73c2\u0022\u003EADRIAN RURAWHE (Deputy Speaker):\u003C/span\u003E E te Atua kaha rawa, ka tuku whakamoemiti atu m\u0101tou, m\u014D ng\u0101 karakia kua waihotia mai ki runga i a m\u0101tou. Ka waiho i \u014D m\u0101tou p\u0101nga whaiaro katoa ki te taha. Ka mihi ki te Ku\u012Bni, me te inoi atu m\u014D te \u0101rahitanga i roto i \u014D m\u0101tou whakaaroarohanga, kia m\u014Dhio ai, kia whakaiti ai t\u0101 m\u0101tou whakahaere i ng\u0101 take o te Whare nei, m\u014D te oranga, te maung\u0101rongo, me te aroha o Aotearoa. \u0100mene.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E[Almighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the Queen, and pray for guidance in our deliberations, that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom and humility, for the welfare, peace, and compassion of New Zealand. Amen.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f6e8bc1772c7439bac6bd6cdc671cde0\u0022\u003EVisitors\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e9e4d5fe68124561aeb0495297c0abd9\u0022\u003ELatvia\u2014Foreign Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022f77e6372fa414887a7ac52e4cb29e54c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f77e6372fa414887a7ac52e4cb29e54c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sure that members would wish to welcome His Excellency Edgars Rink\u0113vi\u010Ds, Foreign Minister of the Republic of Latvia, and his delegation, who are present in the gallery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002297ecb82fb121411fa4fa510fd33a5b34\u0022\u003ESpeaker\u2019s Rulings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002216b716c0e2a645de98d3421b10decf36\u0022\u003EWritten Questions\u2014Overdue Replies\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00221cc897d0f0c54772b045b9a0cf3f5fe7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221cc897d0f0c54772b045b9a0cf3f5fe7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It has come to my attention that replies to 24 written questions from Dr Shane Reti to the Minister of Health are overdue, some by as much as three weeks. I accept that this is a busy portfolio with over 2,000 written questions replied to this year and there is a process of change in the administrative arrangements; however, not answering questions on time is an abuse of the written question process and does not uphold the requirements for Ministers to account to this House for the offices they hold. As a result of the long delay in providing replies to these questions, I rule that the Minister will provide substantive answers to overdue questions by midday on Thursday, 11 August. Since the Opposition have been denied an opportunity to use written questions to scrutinise the Government in a timely manner, they will receive an additional 10 supplementary oral questions to be used by the end of this week. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI do accept that there will be occasional circumstances where replies are a day or two late, and I do not expect to receive complaints from members in those circumstances. I also take this opportunity to remind all Ministers of their obligations but also of their ability to lodge an interim reply on the rare occasions that a substantive reply cannot be provided within six working days. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2bac3d23d1f4274a50cc8f57ab91bfa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2bac3d23d1f4274a50cc8f57ab91bfa\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Just one question\u2014I wondered how you intended to divide those 10 questions amongst Opposition parties?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd69d25dce1740cc9af9029b21d4dbd9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd69d25dce1740cc9af9029b21d4dbd9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019ve related them entirely to the member whose questions have not been answered and who raised the question with me. It was my intention if Dr Reti had had a question to actually allocate the additional supplementaries to him, but he doesn\u2019t have a question today, so I thought it fair that his colleagues could share them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e3373fae2bfe4aa68780a7bbe1db8549\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d336986108e947b7941c56203fcc9436\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00223e598638221b4cf2a9c5a098fde7a303\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e598638221b4cf2a9c5a098fde7a303\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the sitting of the House today be extended into the morning of Thursday, 11 August for the second reading of the Maniapoto Claims Settlement Bill, further consideration in committee of the Overseas Investment (Forestry) Amendment Bill, and the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System and Children and Young People\u2019s Commission Bill, and the second reading of the Screen Industry Workers Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227c79dd409033474480bac15efbfc8a22\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002221a5ea06f7cd419abf79b6c51973a133\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222bf6bbb2f4fd4e91bfd62b783672cf83\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4f7f17450b848ce99d5a31725c58af2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4f7f17450b848ce99d5a31725c58af2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No select committee reports have been presented. No bills have been introduced. Petitions have been delivered to the Clerk for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022201a370b5619440daac37e54086461af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022201a370b5619440daac37e54086461af\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EPetition of Laura Williams requesting that the House acknowledge that adult ADHD is a worthy concern, and increase funding for it \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Aaron Hendry requesting that the House stop the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Nigel Woodley requesting that the House urge the Government to establish an Embassy in the State of Israel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022d0757630e4a24237a4275d43998d78b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d0757630e4a24237a4275d43998d78b1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those petitions stand referred to the Petitions Committee. Ministers have delivered papers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00229f46e426d19b4f7bba8d229b8dee0c03\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f46e426d19b4f7bba8d229b8dee0c03\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ECrown Irrigation Investments Ltd statement of performance expectations 2022/23\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EAnimal Control Products Ltd statement of corporate intent 2023-2025\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EWaka Kotahi NZ Transport Agency statement of performance expectations 2022/23.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u002208934e80889d4a6fb346eea30e097aae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208934e80889d4a6fb346eea30e097aae\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those papers are published under the authority of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e20705f9331d43b1aa782e8ae75ea8bf\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228fa3a9e505d241a193e596093e9ab888\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220de92a40daa248318f0c1a2075840b41\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u00226cf80810bf8e406c935cc96c035554c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226cf80810bf8e406c935cc96c035554c8\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER LUXON (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all her Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u00225c51be6f0e384764ac5a3291b57942b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c51be6f0e384764ac5a3291b57942b7\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, particularly this Government\u2019s economic recovery plan. This afternoon, the Minister of Tourism is releasing the first phase of the Tourism Industry Transformation Plan at the Tourism Export Council of New Zealand\u2019s annual conference in Nelson. While the tourism sector has been particularly hard hit by COVID-19, we\u2019re starting to see the industry begin to recover. In the week to 26 July, 43,600 people travelled from Australia, and travellers from the UK and the USA continue to increase, with their card spend already back to 2019 levels. There is a long way to go and significant challenges to overcome. However, we are well positioned to deal with the global economic uncertainty and disruption, and we will continue to work along with industry as we recover.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276e4ba0368294ccd83e26e4e0b9c5b2e\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Does she stand by her statement on welfare: \u201CLet\u2019s focus on the reality and the evidence, rather than the politics\u201D, and, if so, can she confirm there are over 50,000 more people on the jobseeker benefit today compared to when she became Prime Minister? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb06d01f0bba4c55ae485383d3bdd4a5\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I do stand by my statements, and I also stand by the figures that I provided yesterday, including that we\u2019ve seen a record level of young people move off benefit and into work, with over 35,000 young people aged 18 to 24 moving off benefit and into employment last year. I also stand by the statements I\u2019ve made that we should focus on removing barriers into employment, training, and education. That is exactly what we have done as a Government. And I stand by my statement that that should be, I would hope, the focus of everyone in this House, rather than labelling young people as taking a free ride. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226f43e651a33437893f398a13114c3cd\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not right. When she said in relation to the high number of job seekers, \u201CWe haven\u2019t made changes to what sanctions are available there for use\u201D, does she accept there is a difference between sanctions being available and sanctions actually being used? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a239240d4d194b94ab43719c9d10549a\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: The point that I was making is those sanctions continue to be available to the extended number of front-line workers that we now have, because, when we came into office, we recognised that the amount of time they were spending on job placement had gone from 50 percent to 14 percent. That is the problem with the Opposition: when they call the front-line workers who are placing people into work \u201Cbureaucrats\u201D, that is exactly why the National Party, when they were in Government, ran those numbers down, and why we had to build them back up to make sure that we get ourselves into a position where we now have young people going into jobs rather than sitting back, dropping the numbers, and then blaming young people for their unemployment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211f3ae57377542d891ed96ec6e2f095e\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Should people on the jobseeker benefit who don\u2019t take steps to make themselves employable have their benefit reduced?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222df8c75a75ae46b49a1147d7ad6ca4c1\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: As I\u2019ve said, the policy remains the same. It would also be worth reflecting on what has occurred to our employment numbers, because the member seems to be implying that simply because we have increases in jobseeker, that means we have somehow a massive change in attitude and our young people don\u2019t want to work anymore. I disagree. What we have is an economic crisis, and, in the wake of the global financial crisis, we saw a similar increase for young people impacted and on benefit, as we have seen with the pandemic. What has changed is that that member believes that it is the fault of young people rather than what we\u2019re experiencing in the economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287a0be9ce746410cb4529de2255ddf69\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: We care about them. [Interruption] Why was the number\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022727124cded7941e1bbab747b7f7074d9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Now, the member should not be interjecting on her own leader.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfe104cf9a3c412398685c72ac73b97a\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Why was the number of sanctions applied in the June quarter this year 50 percent lower than the same period in 2019, despite the number of job seekers being 25 percent higher?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222674b94e98724502830b494d6c5b3be0\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Because they would have been fulfilling obligations rather than taking \u201Ca free ride\u201D. Again, 35,000 young people went into work and off benefit. We have now 215,000 people since we\u2019ve been in Government who have taken up apprenticeships. We have 3,600 young people in employment and training through He Poutama Rangatahi, 5,000 in employment with Mana in Mahi. When I see a reduction in sanctions, my assumption is it\u2019s because young people are fulfilling their obligations, rather than the National Party\u2019s assumption that young people are suddenly being given a free ride.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ae1ee3e98904685b98b8255bc116ee1\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: We care about them\u2014we care about them! Does she support enforcing the existing\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a372f7f9b6ef49b5a837b7283d801f56\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Order! Right. The member shouldn\u2019t have reacted that way; he should have asked his question. The Government member shouldn\u2019t have reacted to the inappropriate reactions, so we\u2019ll sort of square it all off as even and we\u2019ll start again and we\u2019ll behave ourselves, if we can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f4e6162dedf4158896582fff0897771\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Does she support enforcing the existing benefit sanctions regime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d83d0cf211b94baca8e32bf1954f43cd\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: The sanctions regime has remained the same, and we continue to support our Ministry of Social Development workforce to utilise them. Again, rather than simply making the assumption that young people are not fulfilling their obligations, it would be worth the member\u2019s while in looking at what the barriers are to work for our young people. That is why we, for instance, have funded driver licences for the 70 percent of entry level jobs that require them. It\u2019s why we\u2019ve made the first year of trades training and education free, to try and get young people into training opportunities. It\u2019s why we brought back the training incentive allowance, which the last Government got rid of. And it\u2019s why we\u2019ve increased the amount of part-time work you can do so that you can support that transition. The member immediately assumes that all our young people are useless. I disagree.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af9ab8885cda4f3db0d9c6a5330529c8\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Government tell Work and Income to reduce the use of sanctions for people on the jobseeker benefit who don\u2019t meet their obligations to find work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265b955583f934101a811845f57abb01c\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: We have used the same obligations as the last Government did, and we have seen the same increase in young people having to access the benefit after an economic shock. The starting point, on this side of the House, is how do we keep up those record level numbers of young people going into work, rather than assume that young people won\u2019t take those opportunities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc5979fddb384ff39e53018852662f55\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: If the Government didn\u2019t tell Work and Income to reduce the use of sanctions, why are so few sanctions being applied, despite the number of job seekers being so high?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220ab17b87971439bab44630a6a6a9a83\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Is it completely impossible for the member to understand that young people actually will be fulfilling their obligations but may not have the skills required to get into those jobs? They may, for instance, in some cases, have a history that means that they are facing barriers to work. It speaks volumes that the immediate assumption by the member is that they\u2019re not applying sanctions, rather than the fact they haven\u2019t done anything to attract them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022838ef17bc5974a3fad66185a313169a5\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Who is right: the Minister for Social Development and Employment, who has claimed National\u2019s welfare policies won\u2019t work, or the Prime Minister, who has claimed National\u2019s welfare policies already exist?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fe450483bb14554ad37223b09326436\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Minister Sepuloni has pointed out that labelling and blaming young people for the economic circumstances we find ourselves in will do nothing to support young people. I agree with her. She has also pointed out we have job coaching; we have incentives; we also have training incentives; employment subsidies for employers; and, the best of all, record departures from benefits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022469f8bea79cf48cca1295caa4812a9cf\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u00225b15a9ec8b9b486abfc2e8cc2b592798\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b15a9ec8b9b486abfc2e8cc2b592798\u0022\u003EBARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports has he seen on the New Zealand economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022431a466b1e0d49cf87869b309c356443\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022431a466b1e0d49cf87869b309c356443\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E The jobs market is continuing to show its resilience. The SEEK New Zealand Employment Report rebounded 1.3 percent in July following the previous month\u2019s 5.3 percent decline, and it\u2019s up 28 percent for the year. BNZ\u2019s economist said it\u2019s too early to say that job ads have peaked as monthly figures do tend to be volatile, but the trend measure eased for the first time since September last year in the wake of the Delta outbreak. We know that some sectors and businesses are facing worker shortages, and in response, we are continuing to invest heavily in skills and training programmes such as Mana in Mahi, Flexi-wage, and He Poutama Rangatahi, while making it easier at the same time to attract overseas workers to get the skills we need. Over 7,917 businesses have received accreditation to employ migrants since the scheme opened in late May.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f531dd42de0437fae67c0a7262c63e8\u0022\u003EBarbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has he seen on the international context for New Zealand\u2019s labour market and its impact on the economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a05840718a3146698e81fd7b4ef2c245\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealand\u2019s labour market compares favourably with the countries that we generally compare ourselves with. The latest report from the OECD shows for the June quarter New Zealand has the sixth lowest rate of unemployment in the OECD at 3.3 percent compared with the US in 10th place, the UK and Australia in 14th equal, and Canada in 22nd place. In terms of employment rates, New Zealand ranks fourth in the OECD, ahead of Australia on seventh, the UK on 12th, and Canada in 13th equal, and the US in 22nd equal place. The robust labour market is supporting the economy in what is a volatile and uncertain global environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebe512de3bc44c1cbbad3f6a84e24126\u0022\u003EBarbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: What other reports has he seen on the economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251be999377a347f6af0053032e5412a1\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: In its latest fortnightly economic update, Treasury reported that meat and dairy production had rebounded in the June quarter. Meat processing rose 8.8 percent\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a3088ed9baa495880b397c7154ffdc3\u0022\u003EBarbara Kuriger\u003C/span\u003E: As expected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254b0507ca67544dca214ee87e1ad2633\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014compared with the March quarter as reduced worker absenteeism from COVID-19 enabled the industry to clear some of the backlog. Ms Kuriger will be pleased to know that milk production also improved in the June quarter: up 5.5 percent although production was down 4 percent for the year. The recovery in meat and dairy production will support GDP in the June quarter along with the expansion in the service sector that I mentioned in the House yesterday. The opening of the borders and the prospect of a strong summer tourism season will further support the recovery of sectors who have borne the brunt of the pandemic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226101d3ac26b34d82a3da3f4f201d28c6\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Defence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022 data-id=\u0022606897ff97084e6eba626a84f9d6e6fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022606897ff97084e6eba626a84f9d6e6fc\u0022\u003EDr JAMES McDOWALL (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Defence: Is he content with the state of morale in the New Zealand Defence Force, and how does he plan on resolving the increasing attrition rates across all three branches?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8cdab1bf10e4c46a88db88a846d6a14\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: As I call the Minister, I want to indicate that I have been forewarned that this is a longer than normal answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u00226b147509d33d49ed8af4419fa1e95d73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b147509d33d49ed8af4419fa1e95d73\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. In my answer to the first part of the question, yes. However, I acknowledge that the increased levels of attrition is a challenge for the defence force, and as I have met with my counterparts from around the world, they too are experiencing the same challenges. The defence force has played a critical role in keeping New Zealanders safe during Operation Protect throughout the COVID-19 pandemic, despite the challenging nature of that deployment for our personnel. Now that the borders have opened and countries are slowly getting back to business as usual, I\u2019m confident that we will see a corresponding lift in morale for our New Zealand Defence Force, as our people can get back to doing more of the overseas deployments that many have signed up for. In my recent travels around the country and in recent days at the Solomon Islands, I had the opportunity to speak with the contingent that I travelled with, and the morale was high. They told me that now that COVID-19 is in their rear-view mirror, they can now get back on with the mahi they look forward to and upcoming deployments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ETo answer the second part of the question around what my plans are to resolve the attrition issue, my answer is that I\u2019m keeping a close eye on these challenges, and there are a number of things under way. Through Budget 2022, we secured a significant uplift of $90 million for remuneration. It is my expectation that the focus of this remuneration package is on retaining people with critical skills and supporting our lower-paid defence force staff where required. We are seeing more training exercise opportunities coming up. For example, since the start of the year, we have had our defence force participate in training operations such as humanitarian assistance and disaster relief in Operation Mahi Tahi, global security in Operation T\u012Beke, and capacity building through Tropic Twilight and combat training through Rim of the Pacific. In addition, this Government has made significant investments in our defence force after a decade of neglect under National and ACT. Since taking office, we have committed approximately $4.5 billion to 12 major defence capability projects, the\u2014[Interruption] you might want to listen up\u2014largest capability investment defence has ever received. This year, we get the first of our P-8A Poseidon arriving, and in the next few years, we will be seeing more of these capabilities coming online, which will in turn support our attrition challenge. All of these things will contribute to keeping our personnel feeling engaged, supported, and in the defence force.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280f38771ed3041a190a9c47c8bc3e05d\u0022\u003EDr James McDowall\u003C/span\u003E: What does he say to a soldier who has served for more than three years and tells me that he is paid a base salary that equates to less than the minimum wage, and does this explain a recent internal survey that showed that 54 percent of army personnel did not agree with the statement, \u201CThe pay I receive is fair for the work I do.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df72c0842a5a4ef78095dc8cea067fd2\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Just in my answer to the primary question, I was clear that this Government is committed to supporting remuneration in the defence force. We have invested $90 million in Budget 2022, and I just mentioned in the primary answer that I\u2019ve made it clear that my expectation is that money is to keep specialist skills and to lift the lowest wages in the defence force. This Government, by the nature of its name being supportive of labour in this country, is here to support those who need a lift in their pay. We did that through the Budget, and I haven\u2019t seen anything from either National or ACT that proposes that they will do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247caf20b31eb4e0bb11ff7386ad4b385\u0022\u003EDr James McDowall\u003C/span\u003E: What is his response to another finding in the survey that showed that only 41 percent of army personnel are not actively looking at leaving the New Zealand Defence Force?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0bd8b312302466a92593c2f5bb000e2\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: I say that this is a very tough labour market at the moment, and what I also say, too, is the New Zealand Defence Force train their people exceptionally well. Those skills are sought after skills in multiple labour markets, and it\u2019s no surprise that this particular challenge isn\u2019t just in New Zealand. It\u2019s in Australia. It\u2019s in the US. It\u2019s in Canada. When I speak to my colleagues around the world, they have the same challenge as we do. The difference here, between this side and that side of the House, is we\u2019re committed to fixing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b784401d07a438eb84490c547401788\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: How much of the budgeted increase will actually go to front-line personnel rather than back-office staff?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd25c604be32460b87369bd060b404f1\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: I made it clear in my primary answer to the primary question that the $90 million\u2014I made it clear that it is our expectation that that money will go towards retaining key skills and lifting the lowest in the wage table. So, therefore, that is my expectation. The decision, however, is an operational one for the New Zealand Defence Force.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229dc9d8a5646f44638dfc0eeb7385aa01\u0022\u003EDr James McDowall\u003C/span\u003E: How is he addressing the fact that between 2017 and 2021, there were 84 different job types\u2014ranging from infantry to the trades\u2014that failed to meet enlistment targets, many of which, as he stated in response to my written question, are also at risk of not meeting the 2022 enlistment target?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bc984111bae431faf05a3f90dbaaab6\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Two months ago, we announced the defence policy review that sees some key decisions to be made by this Cabinet, by this Government, as we emerge out of the pandemic, and we make sure that our defence force is fit for purpose. We\u2019ve got some key decisions to make, and I\u2019m committed to our defence force personnel to make sure that they get the support that they need to continue to do the great work that they do for this country. I\u2019m proud of our defence force, and I\u2019m getting sick and tired of the other side talking them down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256a2a5025bf04943ae3c9a068e736160\u0022\u003EDr James McDowall\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think that morale is helped when houses in the defence estate look like this [Holds up picture of a house] and how can he be seriously confident that the remaining $6.8 million for getting their entire estate up to healthy homes will be sufficient?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221234a3918a74434e8879b987ddd7c87d\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: First of all, I\u2019m confident we\u2019ll hit the target for healthy homes in the defence force. Secondly, what I\u2019ll say is, right across the board in housing, this Government has been committed to housing. I made it clear in my priorities in the defence force that infrastructure was one of those key areas. I note, too, when I did that, the other side of the House rubbished it. Therefore, investing infrastructure is hugely important, and what I\u2019ll also note is when they had the defence portfolio, they invested nothing in housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225c899fe1b1414ac3afb4590d5e180616\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Police\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022466b1aa09c244cdba0dfc5b10c07c985\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022466b1aa09c244cdba0dfc5b10c07c985\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: What steps has the Government taken to tackle violent offending and the use of illegal firearms?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00227fe81a993c494dc5a3da09b30443faed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227fe81a993c494dc5a3da09b30443faed\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E The firearms-related violence that we\u2019ve seen in some our communities recently is unacceptable. The Government, alongside police, is sending a very clear message to the perpetrators of crime that unlawful activity and intimidation will not be tolerated, and those involved will be held accountable for their actions. Police are already cracking down on illegal gang activity, and recent Government actions, such as the gang package that my colleague Kiritapu Allan and I announced recently, and the passing of firearms prohibition orders will help them to get tougher on offending involving firearms, drugs, violence, and intimidation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022268ce217fc344f9e9e619c64b77f9e50\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: What results has he seen from these operations specifically targeted at violent crime, and how will this make New Zealanders safer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d7cd439d43e4d3d8505f08a6ca39f69\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Heaps, but I\u2019ll highlight in particular Operation Cobalt, which has resulted in 133 warranted searches being undertaken and 34 warrantless searches. That\u2019s involved 4,605\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf7051ae91c34ab38bb6d8e8f37de503\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Come on, Chippy!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d914933b0ad44228862eabea1286ee96\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Simeon Brown will stand, withdraw, and apologise, and if he does it again, he\u2019ll go. Take the mask off to do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8317465ef784496bdffbe04019656e6\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: I stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5c620036d0d472dac8f0ac2ab17c9f3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, the member will do it properly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cb39ea33a1343db814fe8fae53a5e9e\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022874a3464a73f40b3b80d11bc4e7946c6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Chris Hipkins, please start again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ab14fd19c114515ba348902f00b6a13\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: As of 28 July, through Operation Cobalt, the police have conducted 133 warranted searches and 34 warrantless searches. They\u2019ve filed 4,605 criminal charges. They\u2019ve issued 5,682 infringement offence notices and seized 53 firearms. That expands on the progress they made through Operation Tauwhiro, which saw 1,804 firearms seized, 55 kilos of methamphetamine seized, 765 warrantless searches, 1,043 warranted searches, and 1,457 arrests being made. I congratulate the police on the work that they are doing to apply pressure to gangs and send a clear message that illegal behaviour like that will not be tolerated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e68b91dfdd9c414eb9f07fa04b54de8a\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: What additional tools have been provided to help police crack down on the illegal possession of firearms?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269842cde6a294c04ad691a63aa25aa39\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I welcome the fact that last night Parliament unanimously passed the Firearms Prohibition Orders Legislation Bill. People whose actions or behaviour have involved violent offending can now be stopped by a court from possessing, using, or being around guns and ammunition for 10 years. Owning a firearm is a privilege, and firearms prohibition orders will mean that those people with a history of violence won\u2019t have access to the most dangerous of weapons. I\u2019m very proud of the work that our Government has been doing to support the police to do their job and to make our community safer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5ffa5e28661403f8ae8b495d7a31e4c\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Minister not include additional warrantless search powers as requested by the New Zealand Police Association, who said that without those powers these firearms prohibition orders are basically meaningless?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022724af648ec4743a2a079df87b95be7d8\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Where somebody has a firearms prohibition order against them, it can be in place for up to 10 years, and the notion that a person subject to a firearms prohibition order, or anybody who they are with\u2014for example, if they are in a vehicle with someone\u2014could be subject to a warrantless search for up to 10 years, in an unlimited way, would be disproportionate, and, unfortunately, that is the position put forward by the National Party. That is not something that this Government was willing to sign up to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022043cbe2b87ac45ae8a243a9afb553fd0\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022601dd2d57e9e428497cae11f765ea70b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022601dd2d57e9e428497cae11f765ea70b\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he stand by his statement that \u201Cobviously New Zealanders are currently facing significant increases in their cost of living\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002222fdf71cd0c34aa38ea801fb35cf8ef7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002222fdf71cd0c34aa38ea801fb35cf8ef7\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E For the House\u2019s benefit, the context of that quote was a question from the media at a post-Cabinet press conference on 16 May regarding a possible extension of the half-price public transport fares that the Government had announced in March. Since that time, the Government has announced a targeted and temporary cost of living payment, extended the fuel excise and road-user charges\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4ea6c9f80dd45fda5488ef1e4a58886\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Ha! It\u2019s not targeted!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a9d15aee0b74e8987daa8fde0214df1\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014More targeted than the member\u2019s tax cuts; I\u2019d say that\u2014cuts and half-price fares for public transport, and moved to boost competition in the grocery sector by banning covenants and implementing the Commerce Commission\u2019s recommendations in that sector. This is all in addition to the previously announced income support changes on 1 April and the winter energy payment coming in on 1 May. I continue to stand by my statement that New Zealanders are currently facing increases in the cost of living, and that\u2019s why we\u2019re moving to support them through this period of high inflation instead of waiting all the way until Budget 2024 before doing anything\u2014which I think is now the member\u2019s policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022607e0bf21ca643c6b4d176402dc69d0b\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement that the cost of living payment is a targeted package of support, and did he envisage that would include London investment bankers and French backpackers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e3424aa5bec43fdb4adc5cc7bdeb03f\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I stand by my statements in that regard, and I would note that if the member\u2019s really concerned about targeting, then she would be incredibly concerned about a policy that would give somebody earning $250,000 a year $125 a week. Imagine the waste that that would entail\u2014oh, no, that\u2019s the National Party\u2019s policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251c64b4d474e4a2b9a4403dcd107067f\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: How can he justify characterising the cost of living payment as targeted when 800,000 people have been missed while dead people, overseas residents, possibly prisoners have been sent taxpayers\u2019 cash?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d76c025799ed440497f2dce6c553f54e\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: As was traversed in the House yesterday, we always knew that there would be people who would not get the payment until they filed a tax return. As we stand today, we have 1.4 million or so New Zealanders who have received this payment. These are people earning less than $70,000 who, once upon a time, the National Party claimed to care about. What they\u2019re now focused on is tax cuts for the most wealthy New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff285c70525a431ab07f236699382f8a\u0022\u003EMatt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: You don\u2019t care. You don\u2019t care. You don\u2019t care any more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d4415292f224cf49f28c1d61d2e5afa\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Does the member realise his offence? I mean, I know the member\u2019s been around for a while, and he\u2019s spent time as a whip, and he should know by now\u2014you know, has the member been here about six years, nearly?\u2014that one does not bring me into the debate, as he did three times during that question. I mean, probably I could get him on boring and repetitive interjections. He will stand\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e591d5aa078745ad84396259027bd748\u0022\u003EMarja Lubeck\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c509f172162b443ba045411dd9c96660\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Who did that? That member will stand, withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdc7aee7ca1047c4a6d75f200211b97e\u0022\u003EMarja Lubeck\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022356cca0cd3f94a01a96a3b0da2a3c59a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And now Mr Doocey will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203597249d10942e5a0224eb67a245168\u0022\u003EMatt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: Withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc1c80866c3a48b1a11e89a09369f57f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Has the member finished?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea65299d303e44d19bddbd4abc088ce2\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement that \u201CAs a result of both the winter energy payment and the cost of living payment, 81 percent of working-age New Zealanders are being given temporary support to deal with cost of living pressures.\u201D, and how does he reconcile that with the revelation that only 1.3 million New Zealanders have received a cost of living payment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022962f5ac4ff63465cbb520f9fe55eeccd\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s an interesting situation where the member thinks that something that\u2019s actually in a Cabinet paper is somehow or other a revelation. We always knew that there would be people who would not get the payment until they filed their return. I know that those earning under $70,000 in New Zealand need the support of the Government to be able to get through this period of inflation. The Government is standing by those New Zealanders, unlike the National Party, who want to give tax cuts to the most wealthy New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263b46233cf7b47bcb277e37e7b9a22cc\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: When he promised his cost of living payment and promoted it by saying there was a wider group of New Zealanders who needed some support, why didn\u2019t he let New Zealanders know that that group would be so wide as to include London yo-pros, French backpackers, and dead people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2d3110ad6ef40f29d425b0c950f27f0\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as we\u2019ve already articulated, this is a policy targeted at those earning less than $70,000 a year. The member opposite has a policy that would see someone earning $250,000 a year getting $125 a week, while someone on the minimum wage gets $2 per week. If the member wants to know what\u2019s wasteful and untargeted, it\u2019s her policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8e912fb4dd24229a7e8521369b1cb63\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: How can he characterise the payment as targeted, when according to analysis by his own officials, close to a quarter of the payments would go to households with incomes in the top 30 percent, and that\u2019s before we count the overseas residents who may number in the thousands?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267d3cb2e00f448229d70e694a6343f92\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I can recall vividly in this House the member asking questions about families where people earned $60,000 for one partner in the couple, $60,000 for the other, and banging the desk and she told us, \u201CWhat are you doing for those people?\u201D Now we\u2019re doing something for them and the National Party don\u2019t like it. That\u2019s because their focus is the wealthiest New Zealanders getting the biggest tax cuts. On this side of the House, we\u2019ve stepped up to do something for those people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208273b28a1e74e739df9b9b2c794d437\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: What responsibility, if any, does he take for failures with the cost of living payment, which has sent taxpayer money both offshore and into the grave?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d16fe8277db401c8c2a7c777f730d32\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I take responsibility for the fact that we have stepped up to support New Zealanders who are earning less than $70,000 a year. That member previously stood up here and told the Government to do something about that. Well, now we\u2019ve done it and she doesn\u2019t like it, because we haven\u2019t adopted her policy of giving the most wealthy New Zealanders the greatest benefit. I stand proudly on our record of supporting low and middle income New Zealanders. The National Party is in favour of supporting the highest income earners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f665f4d3ff4e4d41b39a2a6c01975915\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Agriculture\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022f571556554a34ac6b0dfceb0b0c5725b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f571556554a34ac6b0dfceb0b0c5725b\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Agriculture: Does he stand by his statement that \u201CExtra monitoring and a range of practical support is being rolled out to help farmers achieve immediate improvements in intensive winter grazing practices\u201D; if so, what monitoring of intensive winter grazing practices is being done this season?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u002247729365fa28424bb79e45ae9f14ec34\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247729365fa28424bb79e45ae9f14ec34\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. Extra monitoring and a range of practical support is being rolled out to help farmers implement good intensive winter grazing practices. Since late May 2022, this year, the Ministry for Primary Industries animal welfare compliance team has been undertaking a programme of monitoring winter grazing in Southland and Otago known as Phase Two of Project Poharu. This includes, firstly, proactive visits to many operations undertaking winter grazing; weekly meetings with Environment Southland and Otago Regional Council, who have responsibility for environmental issues such as water quality potentially arising from winter grazing; and attending to any complaints received regarding potential animal welfare issues arising from intensive winter grazing. This is a follow-up to the equivalent programme Project Poharu undertaken in 2021, and in addition MPI staff have been working with industry groups such as Beef \u002B Lamb to provide guidance to the primary sector on good intensive winter grazing planning and practice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c978522a990844688adc099aa39dd3da\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement in response to a question on 7 June that the \u201CMinistry for Primary Industries people will be out on the ground ensuring that best winter grazing practice occurs this winter\u201D, and, if so, what specific steps are being taken to deliver on this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242ce3303af7a4301bfae57ed6c71e696\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: As I just said in the previous question, we\u2019ve had a project task force team out now assessing what is going on. In fact, I\u2019ve been very pleased with the reports that I have been getting. Indeed, Environment Southland and I think the Otago Regional Council have been overflying some of those areas, and at this stage, in spite of a terribly wet winter and some really challenging times for farmers, the reports are that most farmers are managing the situation very, very well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c9414d16e344bc18210f25fe4e915a2\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: Does he also stand by his statement in response to a question on 7 June that \u201Cfor those farms and farming operations that don\u2019t meet those high standards, we have to check up on and prosecute where necessary\u201D, and, if so, is he confident that checks are sufficient\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7ddb3a6e0084be0bf8935bf67bbecb2\u0022\u003EMark Cameron\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right. The Greens hate farmers\u2014we know it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022477683dbb3b543b095a707028954e8d4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Who interjected then? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d693e80351d04e37b1eaf42affe96fef\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: Another go?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abe8c1ffb9a0493e898b7dbd1c6ed2c2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will start again and I\u2019ll think about what I\u2019ll do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc559e921fa44f76b5ba9493d43fd188\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement in response to a question on 7 June that \u201Cfor those farms and farming operations that don\u2019t meet those high standards, we have to check up on and prosecute where necessary\u201D, and, if so, is he confident that checks are sufficient to identify issues requiring enforcement action?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022faafa396dfa446a9afe759a3c8942743\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and to expand on that a little bit, look, the process that we have gone through in conjunction with my colleague the Minister for the Environment, the Hon David Parker\u2014we have been focused on this, primarily from an animal welfare perspective first and foremost, but then, of course, the effects of intensive winter grazing on potential water quality issues. The task force that we had, the action team that we appointed, and indeed the actions of both, as I say, the councils and MPI have shifted the behaviour, and I believe that we\u2019re in a far better position than we were five years ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f71bc38638c84725be8ee55d2e5e4a7e\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: Can he give us specific progress, if any, that has been made on including animal welfare considerations as part of farm planning alongside environmental management, in line with recommendation 6 of the Winter Grazing Taskforce final report?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264d5127a406f4497bba86ba41b0d7b20\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: As I say, I appointed a task force and then an action implementation group. They came back. Of the 11 recommendations that came from the task force, all but one of them have been implemented, including the one he refers to. There is good coordination between the shared objectives of better animal welfare and better environmental management through water quality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265dbaf205eb64f859d429a0f379e4da1\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: Is he committed to implementing all 11 recommendations of the Winter Grazing Taskforce on how animal welfare can be improved, and, if so, how?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259ecd1524ba74d5e995a9ed54343e3a7\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: [Drops notes] I was going to read all 11 out, but I won\u2019t. Yes, I am committed to all of them. The only one that has not been implemented is: \u201CWork is needed to establish baseline animal welfare performance of intensive winter grazing systems in order to monitor the progress of improvements.\u201D We consider that actually most farmers and most regional councils know what good practice is, and so we considered that that was not necessary. All the other 10 recommendations have indeed been implemented.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022111e998bc96740b2be462128963f853a\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Social Development and Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022a480078c4b5d4495b4ceea53d2ac6cf6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a480078c4b5d4495b4ceea53d2ac6cf6\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour\u2014New Plymouth)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: What updates has she seen on creating jobs in the construction workforce?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00224ef2e0fcf6c247b18f7f87f9b8c04684\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ef2e0fcf6c247b18f7f87f9b8c04684\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Recently, the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) partnered with the Western Institute of Technology at Taranaki (WITT) and the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) to help build the workforce needed for the construction of Taranaki Base Hospital. Project Maunga Stage Two is the continuation of the Taranaki Base Hospital redevelopment and will see the continuation of the new east wing, a six-storey building housing many of the hospital\u2019s acute services. The collaboration between MSD, MBIE, and WITT sees MSD helping to coordinate recruitment, training and upskilling, and engaging with local education organisations, providing support for site workers, and connecting with iwi groups and industry. This is a meaningful collaboration and one which maximises the number of jobs locally for people who are out of work or haven\u2019t been given that opportunity to work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7aff1f0aaba4f578d75fe0458b5e3e5\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: What feedback has she seen on this partnership?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222176fe9b48e840a6bb6571d4525355ff\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: Western Institute of Technology at Taranaki CEO John Snook says, \u201CThe project leaves behind not only a hospital but a trained community of apprentices. In some ways, this is going to be the biggest legacy of all.\u201D He also says, \u201CProject Maunga is a significant sized project and it will provide opportunities for the future workforce of Taranaki to get an education, gain experience, and make a meaningful contribution to the regional economy of Taranaki.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b8a2b884456460b9d94ae6f47af8833\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: What other updates has she seen on employment in the construction workforce?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce7f696d5fec414a96e3640f16b6a76c\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m pleased to report that we\u2019re seeing a year-on-year increase in the number of people employed in the construction sector. There are now 295,000 people employed in the sector, an increase of nearly 20,000 people since the same quarter last year. This is a reflection of our investment in programmes like Apprenticeship Boost, which has seen almost 50,000 apprentices pick up a trade, and other smaller but equally as important initiatives like Kiwi Can Do, which has supported almost 900 people into jobs in the construction sector. These numbers show that the Government is working effectively with the construction sector to meet workforce demand and fulfil the aspirations of our job seekers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228c18c6cf9e2445ebbc3588db2696c300\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Social Development and Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u002225aaef4e7ec743889487df546a7005e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225aaef4e7ec743889487df546a7005e1\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Can she confirm that there are 13,383 people aged 18-24 who have spent one year or longer on the jobseeker benefit, and that, on average, just 178 participants in Mana in Mahi each year had been on a benefit for a year or longer when they started their placement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022672f541400b1455f9f99641a492571c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022672f541400b1455f9f99641a492571c3\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E I can confirm that, as at the end of the June quarter 2022, 8,388 people aged 18 to 24 had been receiving a jobseeker work-ready benefit for a year or more, and there was also 4,995 jobseekers with a health and disability exemption. Up until 2013, the jobseeker health and disability exemption used to be called the sickness benefit, and included people like Daisy Bell, who said yesterday in the media, \u201CI don\u2019t know how sitting up at midnight hooked up to a dialysis machine screams free ride to you\u201D. I can also confirm that in the four years since it was launched, Mana in Mahi has exceeded its target: in the time it has been operating, it has helped 711 people who have been receiving a main benefit for over a year and who had barriers into employment and to work. I can also confirm this Government helped more people off benefit and into work last year than any time since records began\u2014113,000 to be exact, with just over 35,000 people aged between 18 to 24.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccde5178943744fb93eea38a6f02b8e2\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Government stand by its argument that Mana in Mahi helps the 13,383 young people on the jobseeker benefit long term, when just 178 participants each year were on benefit long term?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e141bf06088c47439796380160b7026c\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: I certainly stand by the fact that we need a suite of measures to support people into employment. Mana in Mahi is an example of one of the many effective programmes that we have implemented as a Government. Also, I want to make this House aware of the fact that we as a Government have been very focused on ensuring that we prevent people from coming on to benefit as well. We are all aware of the statistics and who might be disadvantaged in a tight labour market, and who might be more likely to end up on benefit and receiving long-term welfare receipt. We are committed to getting in there early so that that doesn\u2019t happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c45a84c93684799ac9e4aa81535b265\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister believe young job seekers who break their benefit dependency by remaining off benefit for 12 months should receive a thousand-dollar incentive payment, and, if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280a776b8aa2b4032b96591c2fb4e2e6e\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: There are incentives already on offer through the different products that we have in place. Mana in Mahi\u2014there is an incentive payment there. What I do not like and what I do reject is that the National Government\u2019s policy around incentives is somehow the silver bullet to the complex challenges that young people are facing. Also, I do worry that the way in which the National Government have framed their policy means that they are actually incentivising people to stay on benefit for longer\u2014rather than leave when a job may become available at six months, they\u2019ll stay on for a year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb7af310d6354f9cb67f378e60ab7496\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! The member can\u2019t comment at length on previous Governments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9cf2a5ae6204e8f85a2af09a7f54d83\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Minister say to 23-year-old Montana Mason, who told Stuff she believed more support and job coaching was needed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fa93766db8a4953ab968d304dc2fdd2\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: There are a range of different tools that need to be put in place to provide support for the young people that are on benefit or are unemployed. As I said earlier, there are financial incentives in some of the products that are available. There is coaching in the youth service that was set up by the previous Government. But you need that suite of measures to ensure that you\u2019ve got the right tools for the individual young person, for their individual circumstances that come before you. What I would be worried about is the inference from that side of the House that they would be slashing front-line services to pay for that when, actually, front-line work-focused case management is important as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a81cd53aae6940669449e4b91dc81878\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister disagree with Mr Copeland, who is a 20-year-old who said that job coaching should be mandatory as people \u201Cspent way too much time on the benefit\u201D and \u201CI know I have, and I regret it\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022084119c6383d4d768d25865bc5a8d203\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: As I\u2019ve said in this House already, job coaching is available through particular programmes, and what we also have done is we have put into place the front-line work-focused case management that had been run down by the previous Government. The person I agreed with, actually, is Newstalk ZB\u2019s John MacDonald, who said, \u201CWhen I saw the coverage on the TV news last night, I thought I was back in the 1980s. I think this policy is a disaster. It sounds good, but in my view it will achieve nothing.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ddb9804778543aaa8f14c6020ddb731\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! The member does not have responsibility either for previous Governments or Opposition policy. I know that she has been asked a couple of times to comment on it, and I probably shouldn\u2019t have let that happen, but the member just can\u2019t keep on doing that at length.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a00f6e87b4a46a9b5238f0ea2b47b9c\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister disagree with 20-year-old Leon Copeland, who said, \u201CI\u2019ve gone through other agencies as I realised Work and Income is horrible at actually helping people on the benefit with finding jobs. It\u2019s like they don\u2019t care anymore.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d197ae03f41e40d9807bc03e0572b84a\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: I think our results speak for themselves. The June quarter saw 35,000 people in that year\u2014young people\u2014exit benefit into work. That compares to the 22,000 people that exited benefit into work back in 2017 under the previous Government. It is important that we have a suite of measures in place. This Government is focused on doing that, making sure we have the right tool in the toolbox for the young person. There are no silver bullets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223e6b3789e12c48798ff7a3afc0964a93\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Education (School Operations)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b70b6c4e0f914986b877d315dc3048af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b70b6c4e0f914986b877d315dc3048af\u0022\u003EANGELA ROBERTS (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Education (School Operations): What changes has the Government made to NCEA to support senior secondary students in 2022?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u00227b33fe15233c4d22ba9c87822363bfab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b33fe15233c4d22ba9c87822363bfab\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Associate Minister of Education (School Operations)):\u003C/span\u003E This morning I announced a package of changes to NCEA and university entrance, to recognise the impact COVID-19 has had on senior students\u2019 assessment in 2022. We\u2019ve heard from schools how significant absences of students and teachers\u2014as a result of COVID-19\u2014have had a substantial impact on teaching and learning. These changes are designed to recognise the disruption, and provide relief for students while preserving the integrity of NCEA and the learning it represents. We\u2019re making measured and proportionate changes based on advice by expert advisory groups to give senior students certainty that despite the disruption they have faced, they will have a fair opportunity to gain the credits and qualifications they need for the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b4c2fae6b5c409c90613ef72e49b429\u0022\u003EAngela Roberts\u003C/span\u003E: What changes are being made to Learning Recognition Credits (LRCs)?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eaf3b193ab824fff8b38f28918459069\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: Students will be able to receive Learning Recognition Credits, with one Learning Recognition Credit awarded for every five credits earned through assessment. Students working towards NCEA level 1 will be able to receive up to 10 additional credits, or those at levels 2 or 3 will be eligible for up to eight additional credits. The use of LRCs was carefully considered by the Ministry of Education and the New Zealand Qualifications Authority in consultation with my NCEA professional advisory group. The advice and evidence from these three entities was clear, that the threshold for use has been met due to staff and student absences delaying assessment opportunities in 2022. The earn-as-you-learn approach focuses on credentialing learning that has occurred, and maintaining the credibility of the qualification.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0c7a0e7a58b4ffaa109d11b2002a221\u0022\u003EAngela Roberts\u003C/span\u003E: What other changes are being made, and why? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022095b92ffa1ae41fd9bca7ea5ee19099e\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: To receive a certificate of endorsement, students will need to earn 46 credits at merit or excellence level instead of the usual 50. The university entrance requirement to achieve at least 14 credits in each of three approved subjects has also been adjusted to 14 credits in each of two approved subjects and 12 credits in the third approved subject. I note that the New Zealand Post Primary Teachers\u2019 Association are supporting these changes, and I quote, \u201CHundreds of thousands of rangatahi have had their most critical years at high school severely disrupted because of COVID and through no fault of their own. These credits are the boost they need to ensure they can get on to the tertiary pathway of their choice or move to where they deserve to be in secondary school. It is the fair and right thing to do, and we commend the Government for it\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281edcd636b90483899e0a9e06135d527\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: Why is it that after three years, the Government\u2019s approach is to, for the third year running, lower the bar for achieving NCEA, rather than implementing policies that work to see students actually attending school and achieving the credits they need to gain NCEA to ensure their future success?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3b13163625d479c88c4278d573e1db1\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: These are evidence-based decisions recommended by educational experts. If the member is saying that those people don\u2019t have the qualifications to make those recommendations, then I severely recommend that she rethinks that position. I have confidence that they are proportionate to disruption faced by students and schools as a result of COVID-19 and other winter illnesses. I would also say that these are the sort of recommendations that will encourage students to attend school because they will feel success.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222434d0bbdc0d4679a489295800c686e0\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister explain how lowering the bar to gain NCEA will improve numeracy and literacy of our high school students, given that only one third of them passed the 2021 literacy and numeracy pilot?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204ae448139494f05bb9f97c8aae17020\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: The member is referring, of course, to a pilot, and the case of a pilot is to ensure that we get the settings right in that particular pilot. The 2021 pilot was of a small scale, with most participants in year nine or ten. As such, results were not representative and can\u2019t be regarded as likely NCEA attainment levels for future learners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248a990082fd545e1b9016f6bd9b3ce39\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the current adjustments to NCEA as a result of COVID-19 disruption were modelled on similar changes made following the Christchurch earthquake to recognise the disruption that those students had experienced, and that nobody used that as a basis to undermine the credibility of the qualification?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d856b8469d0a4b56bd3488d05bf9e0ec\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, absolutely. This is something that this country is well used to, and we also, I reiterate, use our experts to guide us in that so it doesn\u2019t undermine the integrity of the qualification.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a2e093c0d8974555afca7b1481ce00c8\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Foreign Affairs\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u002259fe8b92eb784335b157b88a6c666734\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259fe8b92eb784335b157b88a6c666734\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te Paati M\u0101ori) (remote)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Foreign Affairs: Does she stand by her statement, \u201COur focus is on engaging with the International Seabed Authority process as the best means to achieve an outcome that deep-sea mining does not take place unless we can ensure the protection of our ocean through setting high environmental standards\u201D; if so, does she still have confidence in that process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f71cbcfb0a654be7b0ef6ac973a83ccf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f71cbcfb0a654be7b0ef6ac973a83ccf\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Acting Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E On behalf of the Minister, yes, I stand by that statement. The International Seabed Authority (ISA) is mandated under international law to develop rules to regulate deep-sea mining in areas beyond national jurisdiction. Rules that apply only in exclusive economic zones (EEZs) do not protect the high seas. At the most recent ISA meetings, which concluded last week, New Zealand, alongside a group of other States, strongly advocated our position that mining in international waters should not be legal in the absence of strong environmental safeguards. This must include robust and comprehensive regulations that embed the precautionary approach. If the international negotiations at the ISA do not result in rules which achieve the effect of protection of the marine environment, as required by international law, New Zealand will be calling for no deep-sea mining to occur.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022867b0d6bb18c4dc39950166ecd14d530\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: What environmental standards will, in her view, be sufficient to protect the ocean, and are these standards supported by independent and robust scientific evidence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022234b7bf10c8d41adb91696d1236a37c7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The principles would have to include the precautionary approach and robust monitoring. I think, in New Zealand, which has a well-developed regulatory regime, we understand how hard in practice it can be to hold mining companies to account when they leave or something goes wrong. A case in point is the hundreds of millions of dollars that are being shelled out currently by taxpayers to remediate the T\u016B\u012B oilfield. As the Minister has previously indicated, New Zealand will be reviewing the approach, following this most recent round of meetings which concluded last week, and that review will take into account progress, or the lack thereof, and the views of Pacific Island States.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215cb5976cdb643ba8edff76e3bf29013\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: How can any standards be sufficient to protect the moana from seabed mining, given that her own officials said there is uncertain and inadequate information about the marine environment and the effects of such activities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279e5f364b46f44298b09b06266455069\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: As I said previously, this issue is complicated internationally by the reality that unless you have an international rules-based regime, the rules that countries have stop at the edge of their EEZs, and you could have an unregulated position on the high seas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229486ff1bedb64acfa0c54de877e90399\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree it is necessary to re-evaluate the Government\u2019s position, especially given that Costa Rica and Chile, the two nations she told the House in June she was working with to advance an alternative regulatory proposal, have now told the ISA to hit the brakes on deep-sea mining, raising concerns that there is an absence of independent scientific information?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8079199e43d41d7ade7bb362fbbd11e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: As I said in answer to an earlier question, the Minister has previously indicated that we would be reviewing New Zealand\u2019s approach, following the most recent round of meetings. The attitudes of those other countries that the member named will no doubt be considered by her, as well as the views of Pacific Islands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ac2a0ba9d1f4d59bec6f7ae724fd396\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with French President Emmanuel Macron, who told the world at the UN Ocean Conference in 2022 that we have to create a legal framework to stop high-seas mining; if not, why hasn\u2019t this progressed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0b296f209944268ada750691f4e6571\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, yes, I do agree with that. And I\u2019m sure that I speak on behalf of the Minister in saying that we are concerned to work with our Pacific Island neighbours to protect our neighbourhood against inappropriate environmental effects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225be3e497a914497bb77b34eec49bea3e\u0022\u003EHon Eugenie Sage\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister requested advice on whether New Zealand\u2019s support for a deep-sea mining moratorium in international waters beyond national jurisdiction would have any impact on New Zealand\u2019s domestic regime to assess seabed mining applications; if so, what did the advice say?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf34194c2fa84935be5335de0a0c96c6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, I\u2019m not in a position to answer that question but I\u2019m sure, if the member asks a question to that effect to the Minister, or puts a question in writing, it could be addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222714285140014e4e968d0a821fc20153\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Local Government\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb49b047675447d8a9d68f4a488740b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb49b047675447d8a9d68f4a488740b3\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Local Government: Does she agree with the Prime Minister\u2019s statement on Three Waters reform that \u201CThe ownership of these entities sits with local bodies and government so it is not changing the ownership structures\u201D, and does she believe those reforms will actually maintain true local government ownership of water assets?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022db386ecaedf84619977376fd5f031114\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db386ecaedf84619977376fd5f031114\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Associate Minister of Local Government) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister of Local Government: On behalf of the Minister, yes, because under the reforms territorial authorities would be the owners of the water services entities. The water services entities will be owned by territorial authorities in the services area. Each territorial authority will receive an ownership share in the relevant entity based on the population in the district. Territorial authorities will be the only shareholders in these entities. These arrangements were recommended by the working group that was made up of local council representatives from across New Zealand, some of whom previously expressed concerns about the three waters reforms. Therefore this proposed ownership structure is a direct result of engagement with the local government sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285a7f516908e40e5a280c1a9c0b67b4d\u0022\u003ESimon Watts\u003C/span\u003E: How does he reconcile that answer with the Water Services Entities Bill, which states territorial authorities have\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201Cno right, title, or interest in the assets, security, debts, or liabilities of a water services entity:\u201D; and how is it possible to own something while not having any rights over it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fe7694012ab4117bbb77bceb320f110\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, because the only threat to public ownership is privatisation. So I put to the National Party: when this Government approached that party and suggested that we put our respective views aside and on one issue and one issue alone we agree to entrench public ownership of these water entities, they refused.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce189fd442064665964902abffff1273\u0022\u003ESimon Watts\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his comment in the House yesterday that those same councils that would not own their water assets under his model are \u201Cmischief making\u201D and does he believe\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221de455efd2ef4053bad554eb3aa9b4b4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! The member is going to have to wind back. This is a really complicated situation now where he\u2019s asking this Minister, who is answering on behalf of another Minister about that Minister\u2019s comments, and he\u2019s got to adjust his question to make sure he\u2019s doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9f644de1a5247a9af62ab255a23cfc9\u0022\u003ESimon Watts\u003C/span\u003E: Can I seek for clarification. My understanding is he\u2019s Acting Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236daa13d2429472486920f9924e2e4b7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, he\u2019s not now. I understand the plane has landed and he\u2019s answering for. That\u2019s why the question says \u201Cshe\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226096f080b37f448084fe08680d079869\u0022\u003ESimon Watts\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with the Acting Minister of Local Government who said yesterday that those same councils that would not own their water assets under this model are mischief making; and does she believe the over 30 councils who have raised that concern are just mischief making?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d2aeba3a6a24b88af01c00e540fb173\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, yes, I do agree with the Associate Minister\u2019s description of that member as mischief making. That was the context of that comment. What we have is a situation here where a proposal that was made by the working group, which in turn was made up by representatives of local government, made this very recommendation. They are shareholders in these entities. If the National Party wishes to make a policy that shareholders are not owners, I look forward to their further explanation on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d2c2ad4fd0141a7802aaf7dc51af17f\u0022\u003ESimon Watts\u003C/span\u003E: Does she believe that the Auditor-General, who said, \u201CThe bill alone does not provide enough information for us to form a view.\u201D, on the control of water entities is just mischief making?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc63735e6d4f43e18ab3565122a981af\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, I repeat my response to the previous question. The mischief maker in question was in reference to that member and the questions that he was asking at the time. The Auditor-General\u2019s submission to the select committee was very clear\u2014that they continue to work with the Department of Internal Affairs to clarify matters around the ownership structure. But the Auditor-General did not express an opinion on the ownership structure; they were looking at issues of accountability and they provided some constructive feedback to the Finance and Expenditure Committee on ways in which we could improve the proposals\u2014proposals which we have continued and consistently improved based on feedback that we have received from stakeholders and the local government sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6029973eabf415bbc7c6b694f014458\u0022\u003ESimon Watts\u003C/span\u003E: What is her response to the three South Wairarapa district councils who said the governance and ownership structure of three waters is, and I quote, \u201Ca giant stitch-up\u201D; and how can the public have faith their water assets will remain in the ownership of their council if local councils themselves say they no longer own them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226dbd624779a247f9aefbf7bc82ed37db\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, the only way to have absolute faith that they will stay in public ownership is to entrench that provision in law, which the National Party refused to do. It is harder now to privatise water assets as a result of these proposals that what it was at the start. What I would say to any councillor who has expressed concerns about the structure is to participate in the select committee process or to turn up to the meetings that the Associate Minister is having with each and every rural provincial council to take feedback direct back to the Minister\u2014feedback which has already resulted in constructive and productive adjustments to the proposal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267b7bb0ab14544f0b2ee87f20c467bde\u0022\u003ESimon Watts\u003C/span\u003E: What is her response to Mayor Neil Holdom, who said to select committee today about shares in water entities, \u201CThe value of the shares will be put down as zero.\u201D; and doesn\u2019t this just prove the Government shareholding ownership scheme is just a farce?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231843afbbbbc45779bbfbe1363e54737\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: On behalf of the Minister, what is the farce is the position that the status quo is sustainable. It is not. Not a single council, regardless of their views on this reform process, says that the status quo is sustainable. The only people saying that are the National Party. We have a $185 billion issue that we are trying to sort here, and after four years of consideration, ours is the only practical solution available. The National Party believe that the status quo is the way forward; everyone else says that\u2019s wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224941b466801145668eb81076916ba6d8\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Health (Pacific Peoples)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022 data-id=\u002264b4ad3efd3e4390bb39ee4661a5987a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264b4ad3efd3e4390bb39ee4661a5987a\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Health (Pacific Peoples): What recent work has the Government done to build the Pacific health workforce?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd3418cf051d46c2bb9ea2e2a8335383\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd3418cf051d46c2bb9ea2e2a8335383\u0022\u003EHon AUPITO WILLIAM SIO (Associate Minister of Health (Pacific Peoples)):\u003C/span\u003E Budget 2022 will deliver 1,900 new health workers and will support 2,700 more students into training programmes through a $76 million investment to continue to grow the M\u0101ori and Pacific health workforce. Specific funding of $37 million over four years for the Pacific health workforce is critical for building a more diverse and sustainable pathway into health for Pacific people, and it will ensure that as our health workforce grows, it reflects also the communities it serves with a workforce that values M\u0101ori and Pacific languages and cultural intelligence, and ensures economic security for our Pacific communities in good and bad times. Simply put, this approach is a targeted Pacific\u2014by Pacific, for Pacific\u2014approach, and something, as we learnt during COVID, which directly accelerated positive COVID vaccination rates for Pacific peoples and kept everyone safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c42abacf2f844746b204842fd93b0f95\u0022\u003ELemauga Lydia Sosene\u003C/span\u003E: How are Pacific health workers supported by this boost in a Pacific health workforce?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252be0983ba97481cb5c8d9ca3a3539b9\u0022\u003EHon AUPITO WILLIAM SIO\u003C/span\u003E: In 2016, Counties Manukau had a Pacific population comprising 21 percent of the local population, but just 11 percent of its staff identified as Pacific. For this reason, we are growing our Pacific health workforce with investment to build on the successes we\u2019ve had in responding to COVID-19, and this in turn will help transition Pacific people from COVID-19 roles to day-to-day roles in the health system on other primary healthcare priorities. We\u2019re taking their learnt experiences on the ground during a global pandemic and pivoting those to new roles in the health sector, capturing their cultural capital and cultural intelligence and ensuing it continues to achieve better positive health outcomes for Pacific people, which will in turn lift better outcomes for the rest of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c302326db8f4f50901667fcb74ef288\u0022\u003ELemauga Lydia Sosene\u003C/span\u003E: What will this growth in the Pacific health workforce mean for our communities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f87be286784845828d36b9f2ff23facd\u0022\u003EHon AUPITO WILLIAM SIO\u003C/span\u003E: This Budget 2022 initiative will support the roll-out of comprehensive primary healthcare teams over the next four years to support and strengthen communities because this is our approach\u2014by Pacific, for Pacific, who are one of the fastest growing populations in Aotearoa New Zealand. This will ensure that Pacific communities across the motu can get access to a wider range of services close to home and in their community and not draw from other parts of the system which are already under strain. This Government will continue to build on the cultural capital of our Pacific health providers and workforce, who already enjoy trusted relationships with our Pacific communities on the ground. This Budget initiative also provides a significant investment to support Pacific health providers to deliver the Government\u2019s Pacific wellbeing approach, which benefits all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022504138d1a5f14e5eb11c6a84d4634348\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d8e73ee18f974c43b0c92055398ee516\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022b84a37ba46f647868e366fc553d5082c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b84a37ba46f647868e366fc553d5082c\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of miscellaneous business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EQuestion time started with no surprises today, with the Leader of the Opposition lobbing over his questions to the Prime Minister\u2014questions that inferred that young people were useless, and probably not meeting their obligations in the welfare system. The Prime Minister responded by smacking it back at him, but what was surprising was that he started to, at the beginning of every question, say under his breath \u201CWe care about them. We care about them.\u201D, a level of insincerity that I think the general public are getting quite used to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EIt also came as no surprise to see that the National Party\u2019s latest welfare policy announcement was lacking in more areas than one. It was predictable. It was out of touch. There was no evidence base, and, as per usual, they were asserting that they had the silver bullet, despite the fact that they have no understanding of how the welfare system works, let alone the actual benefits. Nor do they understand the people in the welfare system and the complex challenges that they face. It did, however, seem in touch with what we know about the National Party. Their track record with demonising young people and beneficiaries stands. They called them \u201Cpretty damn hopeless\u201D, they called them \u201Cbottom feeders\u201D, and, more recently, \u201CThese people are all getting a free ride.\u201D The irony of their policy, which they have heralded as \u201Cwelfare that works\u201D, is that it won\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EPrior to coming into Parliament, I spent much of my career in the education sector. I was a primary school teacher. I was a literacy educator with at-risk youth. I worked with M\u0101ori and Pacific students at the University of Auckland. I\u2019ve seen what works and what doesn\u2019t, and what doesn\u2019t are punitive approaches to people already experiencing complex challenges. There\u2019s evidence in that, even when we look at the welfare systems in the UK and the USA. In fact, punitive approaches can actually be counterproductive and, in fact, stop people from being able to get into work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI liken the punitive approach the National Party seem hell-bent on taking to pushing someone over who is wanting and trying to get up, whilst, at the same time, yelling at them to get up. Let\u2019s make one thing clear: I believe that employment is the best option for young people and that we need early interventions. That\u2019s why, as a Government, we\u2019ve already set up a range of effective initiatives that are leading to record numbers of people moving off benefits and into employment. In the last year, that was 35,000 young people; that compares to the 22,000 under their watch in their last year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThe hard truth is that Chris Luxon doesn\u2019t want to admit that we inherited an employment and training system that the Welfare Expert Advisory Group said had \u201Cbeen badly neglected for years\u201D. It was a world where case management services had been run down to the point that front-line staff were spending significantly less time on front-line, work-focused case management, and that\u2019s what we set about fixing. This included money for 263 more front-line, work-focused staff in 2019, and followed by year-on-year investment thereafter. Despite the pandemic, we never saw the skyrocketing numbers of people on benefit that Treasury had forecast. We are now seeing record exits off benefit into work. As part of our efforts through Apprenticeship Boost, we\u2019ve seen 50,000 people go through; 18,000 people with Flexi-wage; 5,000 people in Mana in Mahi. The results are reflected in our unemployment rate\u2014record low rates of 3.3 percent\u2014and, finally, the closing of that persistent gap between M\u0101ori and Pacific and everyone else: 5.5 percent and 5.4 percent respectively. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EWe have been both relentless and deliberate in our approach and efforts to support Kiwis into employment. Education and training is seen as key for us. What is important for our young people is the pastoral care, the wraparound support, the targeted support for M\u0101ori and Pacific and disabled and young people, alongside a shared determination from employers, business, providers, and Government that will put people into meaningful work and keep them in work. Let\u2019s also not forget, a little bit of aroha for our young people goes a long way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed095ab4ccb640ca95942af48d00b204\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed095ab4ccb640ca95942af48d00b204\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E I am really delighted that the Labour Government have chosen today to speak about the National Party policy that we launched on Sunday: Welfare that Works. It tells the House that they\u2019re taking it seriously when they want to have questions in the House and their oral debates about Welfare that Works, because that\u2019s what it\u2019s all about. This is about a very blatant commitment to young New Zealanders across New Zealand: if you have been on a jobseeker benefit for more than a year, for whatever reason, National wants to provide the individual targeted support to support you off welfare and into work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re taking this seriously for several reasons, and one of them is we know\u2014and the Labour Government knows\u2014if a young person goes on to a benefit under the age of 20, on average, they spend 12 years on welfare. So this is a policy that is absolutely about breaking the cycle of welfare dependency, and that\u2019s why we\u2019ve targeted it at the under-25s. We\u2019ve looked at what works best, and what works best is community organisations leading the charge. One of the examples that the Labour Government always talks about is He Poutama Rangatahi. Willie Jackson always crows about it. Guess what! National introduced it in July 2017. I proudly launched it in Northland at a time that it was desperate to support young people into employment. It\u2019s targeted, it\u2019s community orientated, and, with the policy that we announced on Sunday, I just want to put some of the information on the record, because Labour can\u2019t figure out if it won\u2019t work, if it can\u2019t work, if they\u2019re already doing it, or it\u2019s not needed. So, clearly, they\u2019re a bit confused about what our policy is. It is comprehensive, and deliberately so, because this is a real problem that we in New Zealand, we in the National Party under Christopher Luxon\u2019s leadership, want to solve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003ESo if you think about the number of people who are on the jobseeker benefit, that number has nearly doubled for the number that have been on benefit for 12 months or more\u2014jobseeker benefit\u2014 under their watch. At the same time, DairyNZ is doing advertising campaigns to say, \u201CWe want young people; we will train them up from scratch.\u201D It\u2019s the same in horticulture, same in retail, same in hospitality, same in manufacturing. Just about any street, there are signs advertising for jobs that young people would be welcomed into with open arms. And so what we see has to happen is individual job coaching for those young people to connect them to the opportunities that exist today. They are there today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThe second part of it is the piece that I think Labour\u2019s conveniently forgotten about or ignored, and that is a comprehensive needs assessment that actually looks at what are the barriers for each young job seeker that\u2019s on the benefit. I do not discriminate between a young person who has a health condition or disability that temporarily means they are unable to work in this two-year period\u2014because that is what the jobseeker criteria is. I refuse to accept that those young people don\u2019t deserve the assistance, support, and targeted effort to support them on a pathway into work. For some of them\u2014and a gentleman that I spoke to three weeks ago who had mental health and anxiety issues, for him, it was about working part-time to begin with. It was about working part-time, it was getting up every day, going to a workplace that actually built his confidence and helped his mental health. Now, I think that\u2019s worth it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EBut you can\u2019t do that in a Government agency where someone rang me today and said they waited for an hour and a half on the phone to get someone to assist them, and no one would. National will take a targeted approach, allow community organisations to deliver this through job coaches, needs assessment, individual jobs plan. And, yes, there are incentives available, and obligations when that jobs plan isn\u2019t followed. It\u2019s the young person\u2019s plan\u2014it is the young person\u2019s plan\u2014and we want to give them every single opportunity, where there are jobs everywhere, to make sure we have welfare that works.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u0022c477868321e649b6bc829196c2c8bcbe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c477868321e649b6bc829196c2c8bcbe\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Minister for Broadcasting and Media):\u003C/span\u003E What a load of rubbish. What a load of rubbish from the previous Minister of the National Government who headed the Ministry of Social Development and absolutely went after young people constantly. We heard that again on Sunday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI want to say to the House\u2014I can see there\u2019s a lot happening on the other side, so there\u2019s not a lot of us here today\u2014but I want to say to our people who are here today, let\u2019s never ever forget what this previous useless, useless, useless Opposition who were Government\u2014never forget what they did in their nine years. Absolutely minimal investment in health. We had sewage coming down the walls of Middlemore. Why? Because of this useless, useless Opposition on the other side. And let\u2019s not forget what they did in housing\u2014where we\u2019re building more houses than any Government before\u2014selling off State houses. They\u2019re standing there\u2014I watch these fools and they dare to criticise us? These fools dare to criticise us? People have invested so much over the last five years in health, in housing, and in young people\u2014and in young people. See, we give mana to young people. That\u2019s what Mana in Mahi is all about. I notice the former Minister who stuffed it all up for young people has left. Mana in\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfa37422916049a9a11fc06414b752ac\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! The member is not allowed to refer to the absence of a member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228dbb699d41a644a0b1aa522dcdce89f1\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: My apologies. My apologies, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e15bd668e35a4009a84c568647c5125f\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: Hello! Hello, Willie!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022298f29974da9444ea26c97712caa920d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: She\u2019s just shifted seats.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002240267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6b80e79da524f8095a71b311d296e49\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, my apologies. My apologies to the former Minister who didn\u2019t do a very good job when she was a Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002240267\u0022\u003EIn terms of Mana in Mahi, it\u2019s about giving mana to people so our young people aren\u2019t sitting on benefits, getting a free ride as the clueless former Minister alleges. In fact, many of our young people are the results of the nasty, vile, ugly policy that the previous Government put in place. Their answer for everything is punishing the vulnerable and the poor while turning a blind eye to their rich, privileged mates. That\u2019s how they operate. Their answer to moving people off benefit into work was\u2014well I tell you what, it wasn\u2019t investing in skills development, nor was it investing in the barriers to work. It was work testing. That was the answer for the former Minister who mucked things up. Well, guess what! Things have changed. A change of Government and a change of attitude.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002240267\u0022\u003EWhat a wonderful Minister we have in Minister Carmel Sepuloni, who has followed on and done a wonderful job in Mana in Mahi. I love Mana in Mahi because I gave it the name\u2014I know I shouldn\u2019t be celebrating or showing off, but I can\u2019t help it. It\u2019s been such a wonderful success, and the National Party would have called it \u201CWorking for the dole\u201D, because they don\u2019t understand young people. You see, my good friend and Shane Reti\u2019s cousin Shane Jones\u2014when we had young people, Shane Jones talked about kicking them off the couch. The Labour Party and this Government talks about awhi-ing them\u2014embracing them, loving these young people, giving them a second chance, a third chance, a fourth chance; not penalising them as the National Party would do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002240267\u0022\u003EYou see I\u2019ll give you an example. I won\u2019t tell you his name, I\u2019ll just call him \u201CRangi\u201D. Well, actually that\u2019s his name, but you don\u2019t know his last name. Anyway, he was one of my young guns on one of these courses. His father was unemployed. His grandfather was unemployed. He mucked up; he didn\u2019t take the work opportunities that the former Minister demands that he takes. Oh no, he didn\u2019t do that because he hadn\u2019t seen role models in his life. So we give him another chance, and we give him a second chance. And guess what! He\u2019s one of our shining examples of Mana in Mahi. That\u2019s what aroha is all about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002240267\u0022\u003EThey have no aroha\u2014they have no aroha. It\u2019s \u201CDo the job, take the position.\u201D Never mind where you live. Never mind if your father was unemployed. Never mind if your grandfather was unemployed. They have all the bloody answers. It\u2019s a disgrace, their attitude. They are treating this group of people terribly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002240267\u0022\u003ENext year, for the first time ever, Millennials and Gen Xers will numerically outnumber Boomers voters by\u2014and there they are attacking our young people. National are playing with demographic fire. They are a disgrace.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c391e73957b484188ef74db46e2901e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Before I call a member, I am going to say to Harete Hipango that she must not take off her mask in order to interject. That really sort of undermines the reasons for having masks on. If people are going to take them off to interject, it means that the stuff we\u2019re trying to stop spraying around gets sprayed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u0022139551598e0b49258b3c5ec206218b40\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022139551598e0b49258b3c5ec206218b40\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Minister for Youth):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s absolutely no secret that, through this pandemic and the economic crisis that has ensued and that we experienced beforehand, our young people are some of the hardest hit amongst us. This is because of the missed opportunities that they\u2019ve had throughout the course of the pandemic\u2014missed opportunities in education, in employment, in the connections that they would have had otherwise, and also in terms of the jobs that they tend to hold, in tourism, in hospitality. Those are the sectors that were the hardest hit, and therefore we\u2019ve seen a number of young people affected in a plethora of ways, including their mental health, their employment status, and a whole heap of other things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s why, as a Government, we\u2019ve taken the approach, as Minister Sepuloni spoke about earlier, to ensure that we have a suite of measures that will work for various young people, given the various situations that they\u2019re in and the fact that we have to take an approach that is equitable. That is what is lacking on the other side of this House. Equity\u2014understanding that not every young person starts at the same point in life, that we\u2019re not all born with a silver spoon, and that if you are going through hardships in life and you\u2014like Minister Jackson said\u2014perhaps come from a circumstance where you don\u2019t even know what a role model looks like, what a sense of purpose is, that you awhi them, that you look at what the barriers are that they face, and you address those barriers. That\u2019s the approach that we take on this side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EAs Minister for Youth, I\u2019ve been out there talking to young people who\u2019ve faced various circumstances that are difficult, and the youth sector organisations, youth workers, who have supported them over years. We know that what we need to do is address those barriers and not just to be punitive and hit them on the head with sanctions, as the other side wants to do. We don\u2019t view people receiving a benefit as hopeless; we don\u2019t view them as bottom feeders, as members on the other side have said; and we certainly don\u2019t view their circumstances as being a free ride.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003ESadly, what we\u2019ve seen over the weekend in terms of the announcement from the National Party shows that they are incredibly out of touch with what young people need. What they\u2019re doing in terms of their language\u2014it speaks much more to dog-whistle politics than actually addressing the problems at hand, and it does a disservice to our young people in what is an incredibly tough economic time as well. Largely, by and large, rangatahi I\u2019ve spoken to are ambitious. They want to develop skills and contribute to the economy and to our society, and, on this side of the House, we commend that and we want to continue to back them. And that\u2019s exactly what we\u2019re doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re doing that through Mana in Mahi, as Minister Jackson has talked about as well. That is one part of the Government\u2019s suite of employment programmes. That has surpassed 5,000 participants recently; 75 percent of participants who had been on a benefit for two years or more haven\u2019t gone back on to a benefit. Because, again, what we\u2019re trying to do on this side is not just kick people off benefits but actually get people into meaningful work that pays decent wages as well. Sixty-four percent of those who\u2019ve been part of Mana in Mahi are under the age of 24 years. The Apprenticeship Boost\u2014we\u2019ve seen a 55 percent increase in the number of apprentices since the start of the pandemic. Over the past two years, more than 190,000 people have benefited from our Government\u2019s investment in trades training, including apprenticeships\u2014one of the first things that was cut by the other side when they were in Government during the global financial crisis, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re removing barriers, as I mentioned. Through Budget 2022, an estimated 64,000 people will be able to access driver licensing programmes. We know that is a key requirement for up to 70 percent of jobs. In my portfolio, we\u2019ve seen a 40 percent increase in support to Ministry of Youth Development funded youth services. These are services where many who don\u2019t have a role model in their lives, who may not have a sense of purpose, actually get that wraparound support that we know they need to succeed later in life, whether that\u2019s reconnecting with education, getting a job, or getting into training. We\u2019re seeing that that works through Budget 2022. That will be extended to about 7,000 additional young people to avail of as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EIn the end, our Government has delivered record low unemployment\u2014one of the lowest rates in the OECD; lower than most of the countries we compare ourselves to\u2014and we are seeing a much larger number of people, including young people, getting off the benefit and into work. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022 data-id=\u002291c90b052abf4889a03bb8f6e29bfecf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291c90b052abf4889a03bb8f6e29bfecf\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a real pleasure to stand today to talk about what\u2019s happening in employment at the moment. As an employer in my private life but also as a member of the Labour Party, I really want to just stand here and acknowledge the fact that 5,000 people have entered into Mana in Mahi, which really exceeds what we set as a target for this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EI want to just talk a little bit about Mana in Mahi - Strength in Work that the Minister Willie Jackson talked to us about. I wanted to remind this House about what Mana in Mahi actually offers out there to not only the employer but also to the young person\u2014or people\u2014needing to work, and how we actually work in partnership across community to support people into work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s really important to do that because it\u2019s not just about throwing a thousand bucks at someone and going, \u201CMate, stay in your job for a year.\u201D So this is actually the programme that we\u2019re providing: it\u2019s a work-to-learn programme, it\u2019s formal skills into apprenticeship, and it\u2019s a payment for pre-employment training they might need. There\u2019s a wage subsidy offset into that investment, into their training and development, and we can also help pay their fees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EWe find out what\u2019s going on, we identify it, and we look for further ways that we can help the employer keep that person in employment. It\u2019s so important to keep them in that employment. It\u2019s a partnership alongside the employer, because we know and we recognise that it\u2019s not just about throwing someone at a job and expecting them to stay in that job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003ESo the new employer has some abilities to access support as well because, certainly, while people are getting more and more used to working, they perhaps have a cost to that business. We have to really acknowledge our employers who have come on board, and stepped up and supported our young people, and our working people, and our older people into work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003ESo they can get some support\u2014in our apprenticeship programme, up to $16,000, which was $1,000 a month for the first year, and then $500 for the second year. Now, it is changing from 1 August\u2014the first year is $500 and the second year is $500. This is genuinely a way that we keep and help people stay in employment: the employer gets the support, the employee gets the training; they train as they learn. And that is why we have record low unemployment in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EWe understand that it is not just one kind of programme. We understand that Mana in Mahi and He Poutama Rangatahi and the apprenticeship programmes\u2014these are consistent programmes that work really well, and for a series of people. Like my colleague Priyanca Radhakrishnan said, we talk about a number of ways.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EIn the time that I have left, I just want to acknowledge a real pleasure that I had on Friday: opening a centre in Katikati community\u2014a He Poutama Rangatahi community centre. It was based for employment. An incredible three years have gone into this programme to get it to where it was. Three years, that community working alongside iwi, working alongside the community, the schools, and young people, to identify what the needs were for those young people in their community. It was a real pleasure to cut the ribbon\u2014well, metaphorically cut the ribbon, I should say\u2014with the Mayor of the Western Bay of Plenty, and for the two of us to stand alongside there in partnership alongside that Katikati community to actually welcome the community into the space that would support those young people. This is a three-year project, it is $2 million; it is designed specifically for the needs of the young people in Katikati, based absolutely on what they have told the community services they need. It is absolutely full of support and the ability for those young people to hear and to be heard. And I appreciated that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9fa244e126c45b0929b6cf2bb2e3dcc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9fa244e126c45b0929b6cf2bb2e3dcc\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Well, three speakers, now, in a row were forced to attack us and defend their own failing policies in the social welfare space, because, I can tell you what, having 34,000 additional young people on a benefit since 2017 is a failed policy. Twice as many of them being on a benefit for longer than a year is a failed policy, so speaker after speaker they\u2019re putting up today to defend their failed policies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EWhen we\u2019ve got employers out there who are crying out for workers, they\u2019re forced to defend their failed policies. Talking about employment troubles and employers not being able to find staff, let\u2019s take a look at the ANZ quarterly economic outlook, because it is grim reading. What they\u2019ve said in that is that, basically, they thought that we\u2019d returned to net positive migration this year, but they\u2019ve had to downgrade that to mid-2023. That means there are going to be persistent skills shortages in our economy right through next year. We\u2019re in trouble right through 2023. It\u2019s going to drive up inflation. It\u2019s going to reduce productivity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EBut why are we having this? We just need to look at recent history and we need to think about what drives migrants to come here. After the border reopening announcement back in late February, on 3 March, the previous Minister of Immigration, Minister Faafoi, stood up at Business New Zealand and he said, \u201CI\u2019m going to have a new policy. We\u2019re going to take the critical worker visa; we\u2019re going to relax the conditions on that. All you have to do is earn 1.5 times the median wage, and his words were: \u201CThis will bring in 20,000 workers.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s what this Government promised back in March until when the policy closed, which was on 31 July: 20,000 workers. How many workers does this House think that policy attracted in the six months that it was open? Out of 20,000, the number of people who arrived didn\u2019t even meet 5 percent: 975 people. But let\u2019s be generous: how many were approved? Well, that was only 1,400. But let\u2019s be even more generous: how many even applied for a visa? Eighteen hundred out of a promised 20,000. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EHow did this Government get this so wrong? It is because they don\u2019t understand what drives migrants. There was no pathway to residence for those people. They restricted them from getting the 2021 Resident Visa, and this Government kept the skilled migrant category\u2014the old points system\u2014closed. They closed it in March; it\u2019s still closed today, it\u2019s been closed all year. That\u2019s why those 20,000 people didn\u2019t arrive. They didn\u2019t want to sell their house, move across the world, and take their kids out of school to come to a foreign country when they didn\u2019t know what their future was. They didn\u2019t have certainty, and this Government and these immigration Ministers don\u2019t understand that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThey want to know about their future here, and why this is so really, really important is because history is repeating itself. This epic failure\u2014this 20,000-worker failure\u2014matters, because we\u2019re seeing it happen again. The first month of the accredited employer work visa, their new flagship work visa, 152 people applied in the first month, even were approved. Immigration New Zealand expected 3,500 every month\u2014we got 152. So, much like the 50,000 that they promised, the 42,000 are not going to eventuate either, because there\u2019s no pathway to residence. Unless you\u2019re one of the 45 jobs on the green list or unless you earn $115,000, there is no pathway to residence for you. So if you are a physiotherapist, if you are an engineering manager, if you are an IT worker, if you\u2019re a healthcare assistant, or if you\u2019re a truck driver, there\u2019s no pathway to residence and you\u2019re very unlikely to come here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThe kicker is not only did those 152 people only apply for that visa\u2014here\u2019s the kicker\u201466 of them, almost half, were already here. So we\u2019re not attracting new migrants to New Zealand, and this is how they\u2019re going to jimmy the figures. They\u2019re going to go, \u201CLook how many people apply.\u201D Now, that is not practical. The key is how many people offshore applied. They can tell you all day long that there were nine nurses that applied. How many of them were offshore? We haven\u2019t got the question back yet, but I can guarantee you that most of those nurses would have already been here in New Zealand, just switching jobs and having to apply for this new visa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThis is another failed policy because they don\u2019t understand what drives migrants. They should have continued to open up the skilled migrant category in August, like they said they would. But, buried in a press release a couple of weeks ago from Minister Wood, he\u2019s quietly benched the skilled migrant category, which means there will be no pathway to residence for all these people for the foreseeable future, which means we will not see the level of migrants that we need to drive our economy, to increase productivity, and to reduce the cost of living. What we saw with the 20,000 failed policy will happen again with the accredited employer work visa\u2014mark my words. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff9ab0e318c648f3a7b1ca66484b6ea0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff9ab0e318c648f3a7b1ca66484b6ea0\u0022\u003ET\u0100MATI COFFEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Speaker. The thing that annoys me this afternoon, as I\u2019m sitting here listening to the debates from the other side, is that the National Party Opposition have absolutely got everybody in the weeds talking about beneficiary bashing. It\u2019s the same old diatribe that they roll out every time they start feeling good about themselves and they start seeing a lift in the polls: they go for the default. And they need a new default, you see, because the last one about being tough on crime? They have to revise that\u2014there\u2019s stuff going on at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003ESo they have to go for the second one on the list, which is that they\u2019re tough on beneficiaries. So what do they do? They roll out the same old lines about beneficiaries and start the witch hunt around the country towards those people that need a little bit of extra Government support. And do you know what? Sometimes, people do need a little bit of Government support. Sometimes, they need to come to the Government and say, \u201CI haven\u2019t got a job. I need some extra support.\u201D So that\u2019s what we\u2019ve gone and done, and we\u2019re doing it, and they have no idea that the policy they\u2019re putting up is actually already in motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003ELabour has always been about work\u2014it\u2019s in the name; it\u2019s in the name! Labour has always been about work, but not just work\u2014meaningful work that makes a difference to a person\u2019s life so that it\u2019s not just a part-time job doing something that they absolutely don\u2019t want to do. It\u2019s about finding meaning in life, and that\u2019s what they\u2019ve gone and done. That\u2019s what we\u2019ve got out there: we\u2019ve got a bunch of people who\u2019ve said, \u201CI need a bit of extra support. I need some meaningful employment. I don\u2019t want it to be short term, but also I want to be paid meaningfully as well.\u201D And there\u2019s some people out there who say, \u201CYou know, they should take the first job that\u2019s coming to them.\u201D But, actually, the cost of living is going up for everybody, including beneficiaries that really need some support. So every time that we\u2019ve gone and hiked up the minimum wage in New Zealand, the Opposition have voted against it. They don\u2019t like that. They think that it should still be back at the $15.25 that it was when we came in in 2017.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019ve gone and done is we\u2019ve lifted up the pay rates, we\u2019ve stood alongside these people who find themselves needing Government support, and we\u2019ve put in place a suite of packages. You\u2019ve heard them from different members that have stood up from our side this afternoon. We\u2019ve talked about the Mana in Mahi programme, and it is a great programme. We\u2019ve surpassed the target that we\u2019ve set for ourselves, and it was the Opposition that always says that Labour hates targets\u2014\u201CThey don\u2019t like targets.\u201D Well, here\u2019s something: we don\u2019t mind a target or two, and we exceeded ours. So give us a clap for actually doing that. But, no, they won\u2019t, because they\u2019ll just want to rubbish it. They think that it\u2019s a rubbish policy. I say it\u2019s not. I say it\u2019s gone and put 5,000 job seekers into employment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EIf you want to talk about another programme, back in the Bay of Plenty, we\u2019ve actually amplified our work in driver licensing, and I think that\u2019s incredibly important to remember. I remember going to the launch of the Howard League\u2019s programme in the Eastern Bay of Plenty, and it was there that Mike Williams got up and he talked about a few numbers. He talked about 15 being the number of M\u0101ori in this country, in a percentage. He talked about 53, which was the number of M\u0101ori that are in our prisons around the country, and then he talks about 65, which is the percentage of Ma\u014Dri who have ended up in the prison system because of a driver licensing infringement. We\u2019ve done lots of things to be able to turn around the plight of those people needing extra support, whether it\u2019s through Mana in Mahi, He Poutama Rangatahi, which the Opposition crow about but it was us that started it\u2014well, it was us that gave effect to it and gave it a budget as well, and rolled it out successfully around the country. So Mana in Mahi, He Poutama Rangatahi, and driver licensing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EI got to talk to some third-year nursing students from Rotorua the other day. I went in and spoke to them. They\u2019re running for the light at the end of the tunnel. They\u2019ve had a big couple of years. But you know what we talked about? How successful fees-free education was for them to be able to reduce the barrier to get into the Bachelor of Nursing degree.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003ESo you know what? Despite all the rubbishing that\u2019s coming from the other side of the House, we just need to take a bit of stock and remember that there have been a lot of programmes that this Government has rolled out. They don\u2019t want to know that it\u2019s been successful, but to those people who are listening around the country, they have been successful. What we\u2019ve done over on this side of the House is we have progressed the situation. They would have us regress back into the place that we were in when we picked up the shambles of a mess that this country was in, in 2017.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u002209e1d7bbd55949d4b2831ac7b66be221\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002209e1d7bbd55949d4b2831ac7b66be221\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Today, I want to offer the Green Party\u2019s support publicly to our professional firefighters, acknowledge they\u2019re in mediation today with Fire and Emergency New Zealand (FENZ), and we hope that their bargaining gets resolved in that mediation so that they do not get forced into having to strike this Friday, because our firefighters matter to us. They matter in terms of their safety and their wellbeing in their jobs. I really call on members of the public who may be watching this to stand up and show your support for the firefighters, because they need us all behind them at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve been going around some of the stations over the last few weeks, along with my colleagues. We\u2019ve visited, I think, firefighters from 12 different stations across the country. It\u2019s been really disturbing, to be honest, the consistency of the concerns that they\u2019re raising\u2014but the examples are different in every single place, just showing a depth and extent of the problem that I\u2019ve found, personally, quite mind-boggling. It\u2019s clear to me that even if\u2014through this mediation and bargaining\u2014everything gets resolved, the problem is not going to be resolved. I do want to put that clearly on the record in the House, of the need for there to be a review of Fire and Emergency New Zealand. Because what they\u2019re telling us is that there is a fundamental disconnect between the front-line fire workers, who are going out and putting their bodies and their minds on the line every day to keep our communities safe, and the head office.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s showing up in a range of ways: the fact that new trainings have been cancelled which has led to people working extraordinarily long hours\u2014which I would argue is a health and safety issue in itself\u2014that, also, around equipment, and let me run through some of this. Some of the firefighters told me that, over the last 15 years, they could only remember one equipment roll-out that has gone well: their radios. So they spoke about wet weather gear that had pockets too small to take their radios; of new trucks that were ordered in that have had to be significantly altered to be functional\u2014going around the Basin Reserve and the brakes actually coming on because the truck wasn\u2019t designed to be able to go at that speed around corners. That was such a poor decision. Helmets that don\u2019t match other gear, so couldn\u2019t be worn with other gear; boots that are causing injuries, and podiatrists have said should not be worn for extended periods or for climbing stairs; millions being wasted on clothing that was not fit for purpose or appropriate for them; and that there\u2019s an evident failure to update the fleet. In every station, I saw trucks that are 20 to 30 years old. Now, I\u2019m very proud of my 1996 Corolla that I still drive, but I don\u2019t expect our firefighters to be saving our lives and putting themselves on the line in equipment that old and dodgy, and my Corolla seems more reliable than most of their fire trucks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThe fact that we don\u2019t even have aerial appliances in some of our cities\u2014we\u2019re hearing from the head office that they\u2019re saying, \u201COh, well, actually sprinkler systems mean that it\u2019s not so important these days.\u201D But, actually, most people die in fires from smoke inhalation. Sprinklers are the interaction between the fire and creating the smoke which is what will kill people. It can take five minutes, in all of their gear, per floor, to get up. So people\u2019s lives are\u2014what I heard, clearly\u2014being put at risk because of the decision making that\u2019s happening in the head office. They\u2019ve had hazmat responsibilities in the legislation since 2017, but they\u2019ve only just started working on that as a plan. There\u2019s been performance notices put in place in terms of health and safety around asbestos because there isn\u2019t a policy, and, actually, FENZ took no action as a result of that project information memorandum, which is illegal. They are just not listening. Our firefighters are going out there and they\u2019re not getting the mental health support that they need. They haven\u2019t had adequate training for turning up to, now, the suicides and the drownings and the cardiac arrests. They\u2019ve had basic first aid training on top of their fire service training. It\u2019s inadequate and it\u2019s wrong and it needs review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b67daf69e06f4315af75b7b99538a267\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b67daf69e06f4315af75b7b99538a267\u0022\u003EANGELA ROBERTS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Speaker. We\u2019ve heard a lot this afternoon\u2014quite rightly, too\u2014about some of the fantastic achievements and what this Government has done in building a well-trained workforce that\u2019s going to take us into a bright future. Mana in Mahi, the Apprenticeship Boost, Mayors Taskforce for Jobs, He Poutama Rangatahi\u2014a suite of initiatives that means our response to building our workforce has been nimble, innovative, successful, and will be sustained. Why? Because these projects are collaborative\u2014innately collaborative\u2014and they\u2019re evidence informed. And they\u2019ve been focused on our workers\u2014our young people; all workers\u2014but also their employers, and their mana, and that is the critical bit. We\u2019ve heard all the stunning numbers: low unemployment and all the rest. But, actually, I just want to bring us down to some of the real stories, because there\u2019s the powerful bit that reminds us that what we are doing is working and it\u2019s worth pursuing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003ESo I just want to talk about one of our local plumbers\u2014Shane Gardiner, and his wife, Julie\u2014and Joshua Hopkins, who\u2019s their young apprentice. When you talk to Joshua, the mana that he exudes\u2014his pride in his work is really, really obvious. He is excited about his future and so is his boss. The interesting thing is, his boss didn\u2019t just get support to pay his wages\u2014which reduced, you know, the risk and the investment that was required\u2014but they noticed, they recognised that they both needed him to be safe and productive. So he got to, when he first started out, do a digger course\u2014Wheels, Tracks and Rollers; I want to go there\u2014and also working at heights. And what that meant is that both Josh and Shane were really quickly able to recognise and utilise his productivity, and his mana was enhanced because of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EIt isn\u2019t just high-vis vests. I just need to acknowledge there are hairdressers out there who have done it tough in the last couple of years; really tough. We\u2019ve got hairdressers who have not only been able to take on apprentices because of the additional support but expand their premises. If you even need a haircut in Te Awamutu, Kirsty Butler has got room for you because she\u2019s been able to take on another apprentice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EAlso, the opportunities you see when you speak to people who are supporting especially our young people with collaborative initiatives\u2014I\u2019ve just been down to Feats Pae Tawhiti and their forestry foundation skills course. These young people\u2014they put more than 50 through\u2014I\u2019ve met them, the last cohort just as they were about to graduate, and their excitement about going out and finding a job in forestry was wonderful. But it was more than just preparing them to use a chainsaw safely. There was tikanga and Te Ao M\u0101ori that was brought into it; m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori that really helped to wrap around and lift these young people\u2014the way they stood in support of each other as they gave their pepeha, as they tautoko each other with their waiata and their haka. Their mana was enhanced and makes them more productive and better workers, but also their ability to stand up and grab the world and the future is obvious, because of that wraparound. It isn\u2019t just about throwing cash at them; it is about supporting them and bringing all of the expertise to wrap around them. It\u2019s really, really powerful stuff to watch. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EI guess just the third thing about the suite of initiatives that we support in this Government is how innovative you see local communities being able to be. We\u2019re really proud in Taranaki to have really committed to Predator Free 2050, and we have got apprentices who are learning how to be Kiwi handlers and Kiwi rangers. So we\u2019ve got Leighwae at the East Taranaki Environment Trust, and we\u2019ve got the Taranaki Kiwi Trust who\u2019ve got Maia. And these young people who, in combination with the Western Institute of Technology, the local polytech\u2014here they come up again; they\u2019re rock stars today\u2014and the way that they are able to help us build this booming conservation industry. So I\u2019m really proud to acknowledge the huge support that has gone on across the country to build a workforce that is going to take us into the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00224d2b5e072a4a4070baf4325281976dd6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d2b5e072a4a4070baf4325281976dd6\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. What a poor showing from the members on the other side. They are just displaying their bigotry of low expectations in this country. We even had a member of Parliament from the Labour Party get up and say that part-time work is not meaningful work. Well, I just think it is absolutely appalling and shameful that they have that low expectation of people in this country. I tell you, Mr Speaker, getting young people into work has to be one of the top priorities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EWe sit here and see that those members totally mask over the absolute failure of this Government. There are 34,000 more young people on welfare\u2014a 50 percent increase on their watch. They talk about all the great programmes they say are happening out there, but the outcomes are getting worse and we\u2019re seeing this across the Public Service as we speak\u2014more and more money is being spent but the Government\u2019s outcomes are going backwards. It\u2019s an \u201CA\u201D for aspiration but it\u2019s an absolute \u201CE\u201D for execution and an \u201CF\u201D for fail, because that\u2019s actually what\u2019s happening and it\u2019s our young people who are being failed by this Government\u2019s policies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not just in social development; it\u2019s in transport policy too. We\u2019ve seen a 60 percent in the number of staff at the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA). There are three times as many communications officers. With the potholes on our roads, I would have thought they\u2019d be hiring people to fill the potholes, but they\u2019ve got twice as many people with the title \u201Cmanager\u201D. That\u2019s not the way to fix unemployment in this country\u2014simply making managers and comms staff\u2014but it seems to be under this Government\u2019s policies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThen we\u2019ve got the ideology, which is seeping in everywhere, and particularly in the transport space. We\u2019re seeing ideology take over from actually helping New Zealanders get where they need to go, get around our roads safely and efficiently, and have high productivity transport links in New Zealand. We\u2019ve seen the cancellation of State highways up and down this country. We\u2019ve seen the Government\u2019s absolute ideological commitment to light rail, meaning that nothing else is happening, and you have to wonder what those thousands of additional bureaucrats are actually doing under this Government\u2019s watch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EBut it gets worse. We now know what they\u2019ve actually been doing. They\u2019ve been coming up with this policy called Reshaping Streets, and the Minister of Transport in his press release said, \u201CPeople live, shop, and meet with friends and wh\u0101nau on our streets\u201D. Well, last time I looked, streets were for travelling to and from where you want to get to, not for having hui with friends and wh\u0101nau. Last time I had a meeting, it certainly wasn\u2019t on the white lines in the middle of the road; it was somewhere else. People don\u2019t live on the street\u2014well, actually they do. There are four times as many people under this Government living on our streets. What an absolute shame. Is that the ambition of this Government\u2019s policies? Is it to make those streets so that more homeless people\u2014whose numbers have ballooned under this Government\u2014can live on our streets?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not just that statement; it\u2019s the ideology underneath it. It\u2019s about taking away the opportunity for people to be able to have their say in how their streets are managed, so that the local territorial authorities and transport authorities can carve up their streets without consultation, put planter boxes in, and limit access to people\u2019s streets and neighbourhoods, and all in the name of putting in a two-year pilot without any consultation\u2014which could put in a cycleway, a bus lane, speed bumps, close the street down, or limit it to just cars that have some type of emission standard or not. This is the ideology that is seeping into our transport policy and it needs to be called out, because ultimately our roads are for getting around; they are not a plaything or a toy for the Minister of Transport to play with, with planter boxes and other ideological implements that he wants to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not just this policy; we\u2019ve also seen the on-again off-again, wanting to reallocate lanes, not just on neighbourhoods and streets across our community but the harbour bridge in Auckland, where it\u2019s the on-again off-again cycle lane. It was on again, and then in October last year\u2014no, it\u2019s off again. \u201CWe\u2019re definitely not doing a cycle bridge across there.\u201D Then it\u2019s on again\u2014\u201CWe\u2019re going to do some events.\u201D\u2014and then it\u2019s off again because it\u2019s going to cost $700,000. Then it\u2019s on again because a letter was sent from some lawyers to the NZTA board. The Government needs to get its transport priorities right about making sure New Zealanders can get where they need to go, and stop using transport policy for its ideological purposes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u002247d3661326024962b1703a9d84932248\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247d3661326024962b1703a9d84932248\u0022\u003EWILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai o te Whare, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. I want to start my contribution by saying that when we were getting reports of the National Party conference over the weekend, I was worried about what issue they were going to come out and make big announcements about. Was it going to be tough on crime? Was it going to be racism? What was it that I was going to have to be responding to and defending for my community? All of them would have hurt, but this one hurt me the most because it\u2019s about our taitamariki; it\u2019s about our rangatahi. Our young people are our future, and here we have the Opposition coming out and talking about punitive approaches to our rangatahi and our taitamariki. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ESo when I heard our Minister for employment wrap up her contribution in today\u2019s debate, I was a bit emotional. She concluded with the words \u201Ca little bit of aroha goes a long way\u201D, and it speaks volumes. If you listen to her contribution and that of every other speaker from this side, this afternoon, it speaks volumes to the difference of opinion that we have about our taitamariki, about our rangatahi, about the policies that we believe need to be in place to support them, to support our future. And so I want to acknowledge our Minister for employment, because she is working so hard in this area, providing a range of opportunities for our rangatahi to ensure that they have hope, that they have aspiration, and that they have the support that they need to overcome whatever barriers may exist for them to be able to be in sustainable employment. I can see firsthand, in my electorate in Northland, the difference that this suite of measures that our Government have had in place and introduced over the last five years is making for our rangatahi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EWe have focused a lot this afternoon on how proud we are about Mana in Mahi, that we have exceeded our target of 4,000. We have now more than 5,000 who have benefited from what was a pilot programme. That pilot is showing us, proving to us, providing us with the results that that type of investment and support is working. But I want to also mention He Poutama Rangatahi, because in Te Tai Tokerau, we have had over 14 programmes supported through He Poutama Rangatahi that have benefited close to 800 taitamariki in Te Tai Tokerau. It has helped them to get re-engaged in education, in employment, and in training. We also have Pae Aronui, which is a Te Puni K\u014Dkiri M\u0101ori employment programme\u2014again, close to another 800 rangatahi benefiting from this suite of measures that we have introduced\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232f05ccaac344778b5b449f7bbc1d6c1\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right\u2014sweet!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228039e1ed354b4fd699da8a25dd59079f\u0022\u003EWILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014\u201Csweet\u201D of measures, to support people into sustainable, meaningful employment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI want to talk about just a couple of projects in Northland which have come within these schemes. One recently: they said, not by design, but they became the supreme winner in the recent Northland Regional Council Environmental Awards. They were recipients of Jobs for Nature funding, programmes like He Poutama Rangatahi. I want to mihi to the Kaikohe-based Te Kotahitanga e Mahi Kaha Trust, who have worked with rangatahi to give them opportunities to train and to develop more skills to have meaningful employment, and, in the process of that, they are restoring the waterways in and around Kaikohe. So the environment is also benefiting from these initiatives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI remember being with the former Minister of Conservation, Minister Kiritapu Allan, when she announced over $20 million worth of projects for Jobs for Nature in Northland. That was in 2021. Another tool, another measure in our suite of measures that we have to help our rangatahi, to help our people. We know that this is contributing to record low unemployment. We are now down to 5.5 percent unemployment for M\u0101ori. As the co-chair of the M\u0101ori caucus, that is something that I am so proud of. So I want to mihi to our Minister for employment, to our former Minister for employment as well, Willie Jackson, who saw that it was right to name it Mana in Mahi. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022b35b2ee0fbb04a2b9af44e29f2ffd713\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b35b2ee0fbb04a2b9af44e29f2ffd713\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E As a civil engineer, I\u2019m really interested in how to solve the problem of three waters\u2014ageing water infrastructure, and how we connect pipes to land so that people can build houses and communities. Now, the Government has emphasised disease outbreak\u2014E. coli in Havelock North. That was primarily a regulatory failing. It was public health agencies and a regional council that failed to protect the water source that resulted in people getting sick and, tragically, some dying. But that problem\u2019s largely solved. The Government has established Taumata Arowai, a water regulator. In fact, the chief executive, Bill Bayfield, told Mike Hosking on Newstalk ZB that he had all the tools he needed in his tool box to make sure that councils delivered safe drinking water.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThen we come to the environmental problem. We\u2019ve all seen images of sewage pipes breaking in the Wellington CBD; Auckland beaches with \u201Cno swim\u201D signs. Communities deserve to know, when they go down to the beach for a swim, to have a picnic, or let the dog play, and that they shouldn\u2019t have to worry about the quality of the water.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThat brings us to the real problem to solve: water infrastructure funding and financing. How do we secure the funding and financing to close the infrastructure gap and to make sure that we can service land for housing growth, to deliver those affordable homes that communities need? Instead of addressing this problem at a local level, what the Government has proposed is absolutely ludicrous. It\u2019s a race-based, co-governance model that forces all councils to join, even though the Government promised, once, it was voluntary, having already taken a decision at Cabinet that it would be compulsory. That is how you lose the trust of the electorate, lose the trust of the community. It\u2019s a risky and doomed to fail experiment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThese new water corporations give effect to a Treaty principle expressed as Te Mana o Te Wai, which says that, believe it or not, the health of the water is more important than the health of the people or the communities and the economy that that water serves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ELegal action is currently under way to determine whether the so-called ownership model\u2014that deceptive concept proposed by this Government, which says that councils continue to own the assets even though they lose all control over them\u2014a court is being asked to decide whether this is a fallacy or whether we should be expected to take on this new concept of ownership where you don\u2019t get to control it. It\u2019s like a car thief telling you, \u201CLook, I\u2019ve got your car, but you still own it.\u201D Yeah, right! Communities and private suppliers value their assets, and they do not appreciate Government coming along and telling them that they\u2019re being taken off them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThe three waters upgrades over the next 30 years could be the largest and riskiest, costliest programme of investment ever undertaken by central and local government, so you\u2019d think they would have put a tried and tested governance model in place. Instead, it\u2019s that race-based, co-governance model that we\u2019ve heard again and again that this Government wants to apply to every policy. At the same time that the Government imposes this untried and risky governance model, they\u2019ve loaded up these new water entities with debt, while calling it a better-off funding package for councils. Better off for whom? Not taxpayers, not ratepayers, and certainly not water users. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EACT says New Zealanders deserve to be heard, and ACT has listened. That\u2019s why ACT would repeal the three waters legislation and we would return these assets to local community ownership. We would also ask councils to enter into voluntary shared services agreements to get the benefit of scale when it comes to procurement, design, and delivery. ACT would allow councils, the regions, and local and central government to establish long-term, 30-year partnerships to prioritise the infrastructure, based on where the regions say it\u2019s needed\u2014not centralised bureaucracies. We would allow for public-private partnerships to draw in that extra funding needed. KiwiSaver, iwi organisations, and ACC all want to participate. We\u2019d expand the exemption from domestic supplies so that up to 30 water users could be free of these regulations. ACT\u2019s plan would deliver the funding, the infrastructure, but without the division and the distrust.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fd3649666df94f87ab13aa6be77c5121\u0022\u003EHouse in Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022024c45395576487e99b3d3d97d360d00\u0022\u003EHouse in Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe8a3338740346e48c58b666859d8f3a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe8a3338740346e48c58b666859d8f3a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in Committee for consideration of the Appropriation (2022/23 Estimates) Bill, the Overseas Investment (Forestry) Amendment Bill, and the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System and Children and Young People\u2019s Commission Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f90a87ebcdd04c128d8ee370e0e4115c\u0022\u003EEstimates Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bb9d0e4bf7e74089ab27f73c34665f36\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa128b699ef840f18b0a558e0d3b4645\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa128b699ef840f18b0a558e0d3b4645\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The House is in committee for the consideration of the Appropriation (2022/23 Estimates) Bill. The Standing Orders provide for 11 hours of debate on the Estimates, and the Business Committee has determined to organise the debate by portfolio, so there will be no sector-specific debates. All Votes are available for debate, but only specific Ministers will be available each day to speak to the indicated portfolios only. The Government has indicated that the Minister for Social Development and Employment and for ACC, the Minister of Finance, and the Minister for the Environment and for Oceans and Fisheries will be available today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EEach debate will be led by a call from the chairperson or member of the committee that considered the Estimates most closely related to the Minister\u2019s portfolio. This debate expires after 11 hours, at which point questions will be put that the Votes stand part of the schedules and on the provisions of the Appropriation (2022/23 Estimates) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThe time for the debate has been allocated to parties on a proportional basis, and may be taken as parties see fit during the debate. New Zealand Labour has five hours, 57 minutes, New Zealand National has three hours and two minutes, the Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand has 55 minutes, ACT New Zealand has 55 minutes, and Te Paati M\u0101ori has 11 minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThe Estimates debate should be relevant to the Government\u2019s current spending plans, as contained in the Estimates of Appropriations. A compendium of reports of select committees on the Votes is available on the Table. The question is that the Votes contained in the Estimates of Appropriation for 2022/23 stand part of the schedules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223dd6a8a9e8634561805d6941f5467f29\u0022\u003ESocial Development and Employment, and ACC\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8512060a62649c58ce52d0b84b5cb07\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8512060a62649c58ce52d0b84b5cb07\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK (Chairperson of the Social Services and Community Committee):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s a great pleasure leading off the debate for the 2023 Estimates for Vote Social Development, as the chair of the Social Services and Community Committee. I want to acknowledge, first and foremost, the hard work of all involved, in particular the officials and our clerks who have done an extraordinary job. Using a theme-based approach, we\u2019ve produced a wide-ranging report, which can be found on the Parliament website, based on four areas of work, which I\u2019ll now outline.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EThe Ministry of Social Development (MSD)\u2014we examined the portfolio of social development and employment. The Minister, the Hon Carmel Sepuloni, attended the meeting and spoke on the effects of COVID. She focused on programmes to support getting people into work\u2014these included Flexi-wage, job expos, seminars, and our wraparound model of support. We heard 90 percent of the people who enter work under Flexi-wage stay in that role or move to other employment. We heard that 25 percent of beneficiaries entering work had been on a benefit for one to three years. Young people and upskilling was discussed, involving the earn and learn model. The Training Incentive Allowance to help people better manage financially was also discussed. The Minister spoke about benefit numbers forecasts for 2022-26 from Treasury, the context of COVID, global events, and the economic forecast indicating an increase in jobseeker support benefits. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EThe Minister said that MSD would continue to work hard to beat Treasury forecasts, and the best time to support someone into a job is when they have just come out of work. Jobs assistance for beneficiaries was discussed, with intense case management helping to get more people into work, supporting people to get their driver\u2019s licences with a multi-year investment of $86 million. Child support payments for sole parents would now be passed on from IRD to solo parents, increasing their income by an average of $24 per week. Dental grants increased from $300 to $1,000, including for non-emergency dental work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EBeneficiary debt was discussed, and we heard that the Parliamentary Under-Secretary to the Minister of Revenue, Dr Deborah Russell, was leading work to ensure a consistent approach to owed debt and this would be a MSD, Inland Revenue, and Ministry of Justice project. We heard about beneficiary fraud investigations, writing off debt to MSD, and assistance with debt management. Finally, emergency housing and the cost of living in those houses was discussed. We also asked about children in emergency housing and learnt that the average stay was 14.5 weeks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EThe youth appropriation\u2014partnering for youth development has a $19 million allocation. The Minister, the Hon Priyanca Radhakrishnan, spoke about supporting young people affected by COVID and with complex needs, the annual youth survey, increasing equitable access to youth development services and participation. The Hive and Youth Parliament were also discussed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003ENext is the report of the disability sector. I want to acknowledge that this is a significant shift and the Minister for Disability Issues, the Hon Poto Williams, is now responsible for three appropriations totalling $2 billion. Namely, we heard roughly 24 percent of New Zealanders live with some kind of disability. Budget 2023 includes a new policy initiative to establish a new ministry. I want to acknowledge the Hon Carmel Sepuloni for her work to bring the bill to the House and for the handing over of that piece of work. We heard that there are few comparable jurisdictions in the world that have a dedicated Government agency for disabled people. The Minister acknowledged that this establishment of Whaikaha work was credited to the disabled people who have advocated for themselves for several decades. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EFinally, we heard from the Minister for Seniors. The Hon Ayesha Verrall spoke to the appropriation of $4.3 million. We heard of the better life strategy, about the newly appointed Aged Care Commissioner and a series of other initiatives promoting positive outcomes for seniors, the aged-care sector, alternative housing for seniors, preventing elder abuse, the Dementia Action Plan, and seniors in business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EIn closing, the Social Services and Community Committee recommends that the appropriations for the year ended 30 June 2023 for Vote Social Development be accepted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u002267bebcf3104a41dab4318d9d77815268\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267bebcf3104a41dab4318d9d77815268\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I understand the new format in terms of a series of questions back and forward across the committee of the whole House, and that\u2019s the model I intend to follow. I just want to start by putting on record that the total Vote Social Development appropriation is just shy of $44 billion. I accept it\u2019s a significant Vote that we are discussing in this first component of the Estimates debate for 2022-23. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThe first series of questions I would like the Minister to answer are specifically around employment and social outcomes support, and, of course, we\u2019ve seen a drop back from the estimated actual last year to the estimate this year. My questions include: of the initiatives that are funded under this category, which of the initiatives and what percentage of the funding is targeted to those who are on benefit long term\u2014i.e., longer than one year? I\u2019m talking about job seekers in total. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003ESo in that question, again, I\u2019m looking for detail in terms of dollar value and percentage of the employment and social outcomes support. How much of that and what percentage of it is focused on supporting people who have been on the jobseeker benefit for longer than 12 months? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EI\u2019m also interested in concrete examples\u2014because we continue to hear it\u2014of what defines \u201Cmeaningful work\u201D and, probably more importantly, what doesn\u2019t. We\u2019ve also heard it a lot in the last week\u2014the language shifted to people having a good job. So to the thousands of employers out there who have jobs that they are desperately trying to fill, I think it would be useful for the Minister, who is in charge of a nearly $40 billion Vote, to answer my first series of questions around the employment and social outcomes support, and to describe and define what is and isn\u2019t \u201Cmeaningful work\u201D and a \u201Cgood job\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00227b7b22ad00814a3895f764b4d76c08da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b7b22ad00814a3895f764b4d76c08da\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you very much. Well, just to start, the member Louise Upston has pointed out the $40 billion Vote, and I do want to clarify that in that $40 billion Vote, almost $20 billion is for superannuation. The three main working-age benefits receive about $7.4 billion; accommodation assistance, about $2.3 billion; student allowance, $682 million; hardship assistance, $608 million; winter energy payment, $518 million; and disability assistance, $418 million. So it is important to keep it in perspective with respect to the significant amount\u201450 percent\u2014that is paid towards superannuation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThere were a number of questions asked by the member. I\u2019m going to attempt to answer them. However, I completely understand if she may need to reiterate some, because there was a lot in there to unpack. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThe member asked how much from the dedicated pool of funding that is in there for employment is targeted towards specifically long-term beneficiaries or those in welfare receipt. I think the point of difference perhaps is that our view is that we can prevent and avoid long-term benefit receipt if we invest early into people that came on benefit. All of the evidence shows that when people are supported to get into employment quickly, then they are able to exit more\u2014when they get on to benefit and are able to be supported into work quickly, then they are less likely to stay on benefit. So that has certainly been the focus for us. Particularly during COVID, I think it was around $163.596 million that was dedicated to employment and training, and that is one of the many numbers that is in front of me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI also wanted to respond to the question that was asked around meaningful work and good jobs. The approach that we have been trying to take\u2014which has been an approach asked for, actually, by employers\u2014is that we match people up appropriately with work. We do have large numbers of clients showing up to things like work expos but not necessarily walking away with a job, because, at the end of the day, the business gets to choose who would be the right fit and who has the skills and capabilities to go into work. So the best jobs for our clients are the ones where they have the skills to take them up and where they are a right fit for the employer, because, fundamentally, we can\u2019t force people on to businesses and employers, and that certainly hasn\u2019t been the approach that we\u2019ve taken. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022605b92756e494d0b8eb50894d8c3306f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022605b92756e494d0b8eb50894d8c3306f\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to come back to the point the Minister referred to around focusing on people who have been on benefit short term, and just to question the decision to ignore those who had been on the benefit long term, particularly those on the jobseeker benefit long term, because we\u2019ve seen the number of those under the age of 25 double. That number has doubled under this Government, and I want to ask the Minister about the very deliberate decision to leave behind a group of young New Zealanders who could have had the opportunity to come off welfare into work, and the very deliberate decision the Minister made during COVID to focus on people who weren\u2019t on benefit at all, to get them back into a job, and to deprioritise\u2014i.e., not support\u2014those who had been on benefit, particularly the jobseeker benefit, for 12 months or more, at the very time there are employers everywhere who have jobs for those people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EWhy is it that, of the funding in Vote Social Development in the employment and social outcomes area, more funding has not been focused and prioritised on a group of people that can work and want to work\u2014many of them are desperate to work\u2014but because they\u2019ve been out of the workforce for 12 months or, actually, in fact, for many young people, they may never have held a job and their prospects are, or their opportunities should be, just as great, their potential is just as great, and there needs to be some very focused efforts on supporting them into employment? I\u2019m interested in more detail, Minister, about the conscious decision, as you said during COVID, to leave those people behind and to focus on those who either weren\u2019t on benefit or were only on benefit for up to three months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6bfc0726a24473fb48c72aef0d0bbea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6bfc0726a24473fb48c72aef0d0bbea\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E I think I outlined it in my previous answer: this Government is focused on supporting New Zealanders into work, and our focus hasn\u2019t deprioritised those that have been on benefit longer term. We\u2019ve got a much more fulsome focus. The fact that we have more front-line work-focused case managers allows us to work with more clients and allows us to dedicate more time to those clients.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThe point I was trying to make earlier is that we do want to get in there early to support people. We know that the longer they stay on benefit, the more likely they are to experience loss of confidence. At the same time, there are a number of people who are on benefit who experience a range of challenges, and we\u2019ve spoken about them in this House, whether it be that they don\u2019t necessarily have the skills for the jobs that are available in their area; whether they don\u2019t necessarily have the ability to be able to transport themselves to the jobs that are available\u2014which is why we announced at Budget the $86 million, I believe, to go into driver licences. There\u2019s also a number of people that are on benefit that experience some type of health condition or disability, including, in some instances, mental health, and so there are a range of challenges that people come with, and we need to meet them where they are at, and to ensure that we\u2019ve got the front-line case management to be able to provide that support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThe other point I do want to make, when we speak about job seekers: the assertion that is often made by the other side of the House is that they are all doing nothing. About 10 percent of those that are on jobseekers benefit are actually working in some way\u2014part-time, perhaps, and still claiming a benefit. A good example of this is a woman who contacted me the other day to say that she had had grade four brain cancer and used to be a teacher, is not able to do that anymore because of the impact that the treatment has had on her. She is able to work part-time, but she is still in receipt of a jobseeker\u2019s benefit. Now, I absolutely endorse the fact that that particular person\u2014and there are many others like her\u2014is only able to work limited hours and is continuing to claim the jobseeker\u2019s benefit. But that doesn\u2019t mean that she\u2019s a failure in any way because of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EProgrammes like Mana in Mahi have a number of people on them who are on benefit when they go on to the programme. The remainder are people who are actually deemed to be disadvantaged in a tight labour market and potentially at risk of coming on welfare. So the point is that we believe, on this side of the House\u2014and I think our Budget and the programmes that we\u2019ve put in place demonstrate this\u2014that we need to get in there early, particularly with our young people, and sometimes it\u2019s before they even come on benefit, to avoid a situation\u2014and I\u2019m not going to say just long-term welfare receipt\u2014where they don\u2019t get to realise their potential in the employment market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u002250b7d3c002ce406681cd1372ec9a9ee4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250b7d3c002ce406681cd1372ec9a9ee4\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I entirely agree with the Minister that the focus of the welfare system should be to support people to fulfil their potential, which is why I continue to be concerned about the very conscious decision that I have in written question answers about the focus on those either not on benefit or up to three months as opposed to those long term on benefit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EAnd I want to ask the question of the Minister in terms of the programmes and initiatives that are funded in the employment and social outcomes support area, rather than more generally in benefit payments. Specifically, whether or not the consideration has been given to the length of time that a young person, if they go on to a benefit under the age of 20, will spend on a benefit, whether focused efforts could have been prioritised in that area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EAnd also ask a question about what preventative initiatives have been funded in Budget 2022/23, which is of course what we are debating in this appropriations debate, to reduce the number of children being raised in benefit-dependent homes, which, at the moment, sits at one in five.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00222611d836c0904f9296f1a42b2222ae0e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222611d836c0904f9296f1a42b2222ae0e\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E A range of things in there again. One of the best initiatives, I think, that we have actually reinvested in that will avoid our children being raised in homes where they are reliant on a benefit is actually reinstating the Training Incentive Allowance that was cut by the previous Government. It\u2019s one of those initiatives where the science backs it\u2014if we support women in particular, because the vast majority of them are women that take up that particular support, to upskill and train, particularly with higher-level degree or higher-level qualifications, not only do we increase the chances of that woman being able to get a job where she is able to increase her earning capacity but the science also tells us that it is more likely that there will be a positive impact on those children\u2019s academic performance as well. So it\u2019s one of those science evidence-based initiatives that we have invested in, and it\u2019s something that I\u2019m very proud of. And we\u2019re seeing great results\u2014I announced that, in the last two quarters, we\u2019re nearly seeing 3,000 take up the Training Incentive Allowance that we\u2019ve reinvested in. And I think that, in the next couple of weeks, we\u2019ll be able to announce some even better numbers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u002204e1c5205e5c4cf899895638ed9362fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204e1c5205e5c4cf899895638ed9362fb\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. My final question in this part of the debate, because I know there\u2019s a lot of areas to traverse, is a question that I\u2019ve had from the dozens and dozens of community organisations that I\u2019ve met with over the last 18 months. And their questions are\u2014for example, in Taup\u014D at a workshop, recently: 1,293 job seekers and every single one of the organisations supporting people into employment were shocked. They were shocked at that number. They had capacity to work with them, support them, whether in mental health, whether specialising in working with women returning to the workforce, working with young M\u0101ori, or working with young people. Why is it that there were 1,293 job seekers in Taup\u014D, massive capacity in the community organisations, waiting times on the phone of one, two, and three hours trying to get through to Work and Income? There\u2019s capacity in the system, Minister. Why aren\u2019t you using it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00221fe2dad07f12496ebd87533202c576b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221fe2dad07f12496ebd87533202c576b3\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E I think this is a very important point that the member raises. There is a very important balance to strike between the outsourcing of contracts to support people into employment, and then the responsibility of the Government agency to provide some of that support themselves. I want to refer to the Welfare Expert Advisory Group\u2019s work and report. When they consulted with people for the purpose of informing our welfare overhaul, overwhelmingly people were saying that they were not getting the employment support that they needed through Work and Income.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EAs I\u2019ve said many times in this House, those supports have been run down under the previous administration. Financial hardship had gone up, but also, actually, staff resourcing was inadequate. And so when people were going in to get their financial hardship support or their income support, the natural place where they should also be able to have a conversation about work, quite often they were not able to do that, because there was no longer the capacity, because the investment hadn\u2019t been made. What we did was straightaway rectify that and year on year, from 2019, have continued to bolster that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI get a lot of positive comments from businesses, from industry, out there telling me how much they appreciate things like the work broker support that they get through the Ministry of Social Development (MSD). MSD works hard with that work broker support to match the right client up with the right employer because\u2014this is another good point\u2014employers don\u2019t want us sending people to them that are not ready, that don\u2019t have the skills for the job, that don\u2019t have things like a driver\u2019s licence, if it\u2019s required. And so the trust that has been built between MSD and industry and those businesses is actually really important. They need to know that when we send them clients, it is an appropriate match and that it\u2019s going to not only work for our clients but it\u2019s also going to work for the work broker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019m in no way undermining the work of organisations that provide employment support, and we continue to fund them as well. But it\u2019s not an either/or; it\u2019s an and/and. We need both and we need to make sure that we strike the right balance. We don\u2019t want to be outsourcing what we can currently do in this space where clients are going to come in anyway. And so I think, as a Government, we have struck the right balance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI do also refute the comment made by the member about the one- to three-hour wait times. I think that the most recent update that I received was that it\u2019s actually between 12 and 26 minutes. There are peak times when people will ring through and then, actually, it may take a little bit longer. However, it certainly isn\u2019t anything like the member has described. I will say, perhaps, going back to when we were in the depths of COVID and people required more support, of course the wait times were longer then, but it is not a consistent thing. So I\u2019d hate for this House to think that that is the norm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u002267a8cd5a144c47df9bb1fc65bc96730c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267a8cd5a144c47df9bb1fc65bc96730c\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you so much, Madam Chair. I\u2019m keen to ask about the use of benefit sanctions, and I think it\u2019s fitting, considering we\u2019ve just come off a general debate where that was a really strong theme. I know we still have a sanction regime in place, and the sanction regime ends up having a really deep interaction with the need for things like hardship grants, based on the fact that it cuts people\u2019s income\u2014whether it\u2019s 100 percent or 50 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m interested in knowing, from the Minister\u2019s perspective, what she believes the purpose of the sanction regime to be in relationship to supporting people engaged with the welfare system and/or meaningful employment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI\u2019m also interested in understanding what she believes the interactions between the use of sanctions and the need for hardship grants to be, because I note that if we take away someone\u2019s income\u2014whether it\u2019s 100 percent or 50 percent\u2014and they\u2019re already on the breadline, then they need more hardship grants. I\u2019m just interested whether any modelling had been done the ongoing use of benefit sanctions and increase in hardship. I note the comments from Beneficiary Advocacy \u0026amp; Information Service, one of the welfare advocacy groups, that noted that benefit sanctions result in either crime or hungry people. And, you know, that would apply, I believe to the current sanctions regime. So I\u2019m interested to know her reckons on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI also wanted to understand whether she had any projections on whether she expects the warrant-to-arrest sanction to continue on an upward trend. I know in previous debates, we\u2019ve traversed the use of that sanction, and she\u2019s been on the record of this House, I believe, saying that the sanction doesn\u2019t work and that she doesn\u2019t agree with it. So I\u2019m interested to know whether she expects it to continue to rise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI\u2019m also keen to understand whether she has any evidence of the impact of the warrant-to-arrest sanction to justify the continuous use, particularly noting that the Minister referenced the Welfare Expert Advisory Group; one of the key recommendations there was overhauling the sanctions regime and removing, basically, most sanctions. So really interested to see how she foresees that use going forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u002284ed6973fe8a40e18441a423b6b07a63\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284ed6973fe8a40e18441a423b6b07a63\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you to the member for those questions. We have not removed all of the sanctions or work obligations that are currently in place. In my mind, they need to be used sparingly and there needs to be honest attempts to communicate with clients before sanctions are enforced in any way because of the serious implications of a sanction being used. That was certainly my expectation of the ministry; they still are there, but they are a last resort, as opposed to being something that you wave over people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI do think that there are mutual obligations when it comes to the welfare system. I do believe that the ministry itself has an obligation to clients to make sure that they get the support and the entitlements that they are eligible for and that they need, but I also think that there is an obligation to engage, and where that doesn\u2019t happen\u2014sometimes I actually worry, to be honest to the member. I worry because if there\u2019s an attempt from Ministry of Social Development (MSD) staff to contact clients because they are due for an appointment and there is not communication back and they can\u2019t find that person and they receive no notification of what might be going on, then it becomes very difficult to engage with that person and\u2014I\u2019ve said this to MSD\u2014who knows where they are? So it is a last resort that will be applied.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EUsually, and I think that member knows, the actual sanctions are actually often\u2014and even under the previous Government\u2014applied because of the fact that that engagement doesn\u2019t occur and they maybe not only just missed an appointment but you don\u2019t hear from them; you don\u2019t know what\u2019s happening. So for us, I think, there is a place, sparingly, to use those, and so we haven\u2019t moved to remove some particular sanctions or, sorry, work obligations\u2014obligations in general.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EWe did, and that member knows, move to get rid of two which we deemed excessive and to have a particular impact on children. Of course, that was the subsequent child policy and also section 192 which penalised mothers who were unable to name the other parent, or for whatever reason couldn\u2019t. So those two were removed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EWith respect to the warrant-to-arrest sanction, it\u2019s certainly different from the other ones, given that there is a justice component to it. Is it on the cards in the near future to remove? I cannot say that is the case. However, we continue to review our work programme and assess the sanctions with regards to where there is a negative impact or where they are excessive\u2014and we continue to review our work programme and look at what we may do moving forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7efe1e7bec44e23a9e5135d8717e48d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7efe1e7bec44e23a9e5135d8717e48d\u0022\u003EMARJA LUBECK (Chairperson of the Education and Workforce Committee):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. This is a good opportunity to take a call as chair of the Education and Workforce Committee. I\u2019m happy to take a call here and talk about the Minister\u2019s Accident Compensation Corporation portfolio. The Hon Carmel Sepuloni addressed our committee on the broader themes and issues that she is working on in her portfolio. This new process, as has been mentioned before, allowed us to take a sector-wide lens to what outcomes have been achieved for New Zealand. The year 2022 marks 50 years since the ACC legislation was first introduced here in New Zealand, and we heard how the Minister has been working hard to make sure that the system assists all New Zealanders who have had an injury and to make sure that the system is fit for purpose for New Zealand in the 21st century, in particular by improving gender balance, fairness, and equity in the scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EThis Estimates period will see the first step in this gender rebalancing mahi, with the passage of the Maternal Birth Injuries Bill, which is the first extension of the accident compensation scheme cover since 2008. Once enacted later this year, this bill will benefit up to 28,000 more women per year. With regards to making accident compensation more equitable also, our committee was pleased to hear about ACC\u2019s work to improve outcomes for M\u0101ori. We heard about their strategy Wh\u0101ia Te Tika, which aims to improve engagement with M\u0101ori and ensure that the entire scheme works well for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EThe Government is also continuing to improve the sustainability of the accident compensation scheme, and in particular its non-earners account, with ongoing investment in its baseline. As at 31 March 2022, the solvency of the non-earners account was 72.3 percent, up from the 55 percent it had fallen to before the Government made changes to its funding policy. The Minister can be proud that this change is providing certainty to children, the elderly, and other non-earners that the entitlements they receive can continue to be sustainably funded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EBudget 2022 also increased funding for sexual abuse assessment and treatment services. We talked to the Minister about what this would mean, noting that it will both increase the number of hours ACC clients spend with clinical staff and the rate of pay to those staff per hour. The investment will build the service back up to providing consistent 24/7 clinical cover over the forecast period. The Government\u2019s 2022 minimum wage increase meant an approximately $38 increase in ACC\u2019s minimum loss of potential earnings weekly compensation rates, but claimants had to wait three months for 1 April to 1 July to actually receive this money. The Minister addressed the committee and explained how the investment through Budget 2022 will bring forward the timing of ACC\u2019s weekly compensation rate changes so that it is aligned with the timing of any changes to the minimum wage. So it means that all these changes can then happen at the same time. This will disproportionately benefit low-income earners and particularly in respect of loss of potential earnings entitlements for ACC\u2019s M\u0101ori and Pacific clients.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the Minister and finish by acknowledging the new format that we have considered these entities within. It has provided for an increase in ministerial accountability and, of course, for many years in the Estimates debate we would see that the Ministers would be limited to taking one or two five-minute calls. Now the Minister, as has been seen already in this debate, is addressing the Opposition\u2019s points very frequently. Again, this provides for increased scrutiny and we thank the Minister for her time at the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u002241785fcb7b6544ad87af00e35a3c9816\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002241785fcb7b6544ad87af00e35a3c9816\u0022\u003EKAREN CHHOUR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, I just want to ask a few questions around some written question responses. So in response to one written question, the Minister informed me that the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) has not commissioned any research into why people are becoming long-term beneficiaries since 2012. In a response to another, she informed me that MSD is not centrally recording the reasons why so many work-ready job seekers have been receiving a benefit for a year or more. To a third question, she informed me that there is no central recording of the highest education level received by beneficiaries. So my question is: does she think we may get better value for money out of the benefit system if we recorded relevant data and analysed it, rather than relying on research from the 1990s and 2000s, and do you have any plans to change the kind of data you are receiving?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022b142461dec804bf99ef9c4eede2e1e2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b142461dec804bf99ef9c4eede2e1e2e\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you to the member for those questions. I think that, with respect to the specific questions, I can\u2019t recall them off the top of my head, to be honest. However, in many ways, some of the rationales for long-term welfare receipt wouldn\u2019t have changed; the complexity of the people\u2019s problems will remain the same. I think that\u2019s pretty fair to say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EOne of the issues, I will say, with regards to data, is that our system is a very old system. I\u2019ve spoken about this before. It\u2019s almost like operating a Commodore 64 in a digital age, and even people that maybe worked at the Ministry of Social Development 20 years ago are shocked to see that the same system is still being used. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cf0d14232294f0ebb69373792b00923\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: SWIFTT.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c5df82188354aca96206644fce39583\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s it called again?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b96c5fd52d814dd68e41bd6444694cd0\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: SWIFTT.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa7e89b382f24ae89b7de6b485a77ae4\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: SWIFTT. It is the same system. How long was that used for? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f30573a045ae436f969afd586357db30\u0022\u003ETerisa Ngobi\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a dinosaur.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203a26952cdb14f2192464e177ddd484b\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a dinosaur. So there was some money in this year\u2019s Budget to start us on a bit of a business transformation pathway. The reasons for that are so that we can ensure that we\u2019re able to get the data as quickly and accurately and effectively as I think that member would like to see us get it. At the moment, what happens is a lot of it sticks on individual client records and there\u2019s no kind of broader 2022-kind-of-way of being able to then utilise that data to inform things. So that\u2019s certainly the case. The other reason for needing to do that, though, is not just for reporting and data\u2019s sake; it\u2019s actually so that we can make access to the welfare system more seamless for people that are needing to use it or are in it. That would include, perhaps, if we had a better system, being able to avoid the level of debt that comes from overpayments and what not. So there are multiple reasons why we do need to go along a pathway of business transformation, particularly with regards to our IT systems. I\u2019m really glad that we saw some money to start the ball rolling on that work in the 2022 Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022d142754b0553401b9e779ad9cf132963\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d142754b0553401b9e779ad9cf132963\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair\u2014still got a lot of contributions and questions to ask the Minister in the 2022-23 appropriations debate for Vote Social Development, given that it is a $40\u2014four-zero\u2014billion vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EI want to turn the attention to emergency housing and reflect on some discussions I\u2019ve had, both in my own electorate in Taup\u014D and the neighbouring one of Rotorua, and the issue, of course, of the number of people who are living in emergency housing, and my questions will be specifically around the impact on a child under the age of three living in a motel. We know that there are currently 4,000 children in motels in New Zealand and the whole committee actually expressed very deep concerns about the wellbeing of children who are living in motels. But I want to specifically ask the questions from Rotorua because the feedback from the community there is that it\u2019s now not just the wellbeing of those who are living in the motels, it is the wellbeing of the community in which those motels are located and the economic opportunities of the surrounding area that is now significantly being impacted by Ministry of Social Development\u2019s (MSD\u2019s) decisions and the motels that continue to be used in vast numbers and in concentration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003ESo my questions are specifically around any studies that the MSD have done on the impacts of child wellbeing for those that are living in motels. Obviously, the Prime Minister has led the children and youth wellbeing strategy of which housing is an issue. So I want to know specifically about work that MSD is doing around children\u2019s wellbeing for those who are living in motels. There was an absolutely tragic environment in my electorate that, unfortunately, we had many, many warnings of before an incident actually occurred in which children witnessed the murder of a parent. So these are dire environments and I want to know what specific actions MSD is taking to support the children who are living there, the studies on their wellbeing, what the long-term action plan will be to support those children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EWe know, also, that there is a group of them\u2014and that\u2019s impacting their ability to attend school. That will have a lifetime impact unless significant action is taken to address those children\u2019s needs and wellbeing. So what is the immediate action? When will there no longer be children living in motels? What science and research has been done on the impact of children under three? What is the remedial action to support these young children to get into school? What percentage of the housing support budget is actually going to the people that are living there and, in particular, the children?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u002294d1978a05c34207bf4e6a91522be4ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294d1978a05c34207bf4e6a91522be4ea\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Again, a lot traversed there and I\u2019ll do my best. We don\u2019t want to see any children living in emergency motel accommodation. No one does, and no one would pretend that it is in any way, shape, or form the ideal or even close to, you know, OK. However, what we were left with when we came in was an under-investment in housing and a demand that couldn\u2019t be met. We had increased homelessness and so we have set about a very ambitious building programme with the aim to build 18,000 public houses. And I think we\u2019re about 10,000 done already to meet the demand that is out there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EIn the meantime, we inherited the emergency housing system that was set up in 2016 in response to the homelessness issue that had arisen at that time. What we have moved to do to ensure that the families are getting the support that they need\u2014because when we took this on, there were no supports in place or consistent supports in place for people that were in emergency accommodation\u2014was to ensure that all of those wh\u0101nau are under intensive case management, that they are not only engaging with the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) on whatever their emergency housing accommodation situation is but are engaged with the MSD with any of the broader needs that they may have during that time that they are in there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EFor Rotorua specifically, between MSD, the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development, and stakeholders on the ground in Rotorua, they moved to a contracting model so we could ensure that people were appropriately in cohorts that were appropriate with respect to where they were staying. In particular, we had our minds turned to the needs of wh\u0101nau that had children and wanting to make sure that if they had to be in emergency accommodation, then it would be appropriate emergency accommodation for the parents and their children. So that has happened in Rotorua. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThe Minister of Housing, Megan Woods, who has much of the responsibility for this, because I do need to add that as the Minister for Social Development, my responsibility is for the emergency housing special needs grant, so I think I\u2019m speaking a little bit outside of my delegations here\u2014we have also commissioned a review to be undertaken of the emergency housing system, keeping in mind that it was really set up on the fly. And that\u2019s not a criticism at all. It was the previous Government; they responded to the need at the time. But we inherited an emergency housing system that wasn\u2019t thought through, that was a response to the homelessness that they were seeing. So now we\u2019ve commissioned a review so that we can look at how we can do that better. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThe absolute, fundamental thing to this is that we actually do not want to see people in emergency accommodation at all. However, despite the pace we have been able to build public housing at and despite the pace or the conditions that we\u2019ve been able to change to support private developers to get those houses built, we\u2019re still in a situation where we don\u2019t have the housing that we need. And so there will be the review of the emergency housing system. We are expecting that our officials will be reporting back to us in October. We set the parameters with regards to what we expect to see and, at that point in time, we hope to have more comprehensive answers for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u002222f6cce3d33c4ca8bbdab3da37b068b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002222f6cce3d33c4ca8bbdab3da37b068b7\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Just a very brief contribution instead of questions. Just picking up on the use of sanctions and the Minister\u2019s comment regarding them being a tool to get people to engage with the welfare system. I just wondered whether the Minister thinks it\u2019s effective to, effectively, deprive someone of their basic income to get them to engage, and whether she thinks that there could be other interventions? The feedback on the ground has been that\u2014and as a former welfare advocate on the ground\u2014when people are not engaging with Work and Income, there may be other underlying issues such as transient housing and ill mental health. I just wondered whether the use of a sanction as a tool to get people to engage actually could be having perverse outcomes, such as just worsening people\u2019s mental health or transient housing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe second question was: whether she would consider the warrant-to-arrest sanction an excessive sanction, considering the lack of\u2014I can see the Minister being slightly distracted, but just want to know if the warrant-to-arrest sanction is an excessive sanction in her view?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u00226abef004fd69469baf5728f810be410f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226abef004fd69469baf5728f810be410f\u0022\u003EBARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E I rise as the Chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee to recommend to the House that the appropriations for the year beginning\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa3be846190b4d23a90f3a6058b3d1ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa3be846190b4d23a90f3a6058b3d1ff\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! I\u2019m trying to determine what is the best course to proceed, because, in my view, we as a House have been set an almost impossible task of fitting in a strict time frame which actually doesn\u2019t fit the Order Paper. So I\u2019m trying to figure out the best way to proceed. The only way I can proceed is that now we have the availability of the Minister of Finance, who will be with us until 6 o\u2019clock. So now I just have to say a few words.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EWe now come to\u2014well, I\u2019ve said, we have the Minister of Finance. And I now give the call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022062067a3c2c04da8ba300e1c4b253910\u0022\u003EFinance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u00223afd4e474da741acab3eedbfeca9e086\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223afd4e474da741acab3eedbfeca9e086\u0022\u003EBARBARA EDMONDS (Chairperson of the Finance and Expenditure Committee):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you very much for your guidance on that. I rise as the chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee to recommend to the House that the appropriations for the year ending 30 June 2023 for Vote Finance be accepted. The Finance and Expenditure Committee also, in our report back, recommends that the House take note of the matters we considered in our examination of the Fiscal Strategy Report 2022 and the Budget Economic and Fiscal Update 2022, also known colloquially as BEFU. I would like to thank Treasury officials for their participation at the hearings, particularly the Vote Analysts, though, from across all the different Votes, for their work in Budget 2022. I would also like to thank the Minister of Finance for his work on what I believe is an excellent and balanced Budget. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EAs I said in the House last week in relation to the Investment Statement, the Finance and Expenditure Committee met with the Minister of Finance for an hour with the support of the Secretary of the Treasury, Caralee McLiesh, and then we also continued for a further almost two hours to go through the different policy statements and public finance documents which we were required to report back to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo going back to Vote Finance and the appropriations, the appropriations sought in Vote Finance in 2022/2023 totalled $8.366 billion. What the select committee noted was that the funding sought for Vote Finance in this Budget for 2022/2023 is substantially less than the total spent across the Vote in 2021 and 2022. Apparently around $12.603 billion was the estimated actual spending in 2021 and 2022. We were told that the decrease largely reflects the spike in appropriations over the previous two years for COVID-19 - related expenditure and indemnity obligations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EAs in previous years, the Crown debt and the superannuation cost were the two biggest appropriations, with total appropriations worth $7.603 billion. Debt servicing is, again, the largest appropriation under Vote Finance, which has been allocated $4.569 billion. And then the second-largest appropriation is the New Zealand super fund. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ENow, I just want to spend a little bit of time on the super fund, because when the Government first came in in 2017, they restarted the contributions to the super fund, and I believe this investment is incredibly important because it reflects this Government\u2019s commitment to our superannuitants. So in Vote Finance 2022/2023, the Minister allocated $2.46 billion, which is an increase of $40 billion from the previous fiscal year, and the appropriation has increased substantially in recent years, with an increase of $300 million in 2020/2021, which was after the increase of $660 million in 2019/2020.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EOf particular note for the House, Vote Finance no longer funds several initiatives relating to the COVID-19 response. There has been a significant decrease between the money estimated to be spent and the budgeted figure for 2022/2023. I understand, based on the Minister\u2019s comments during the committee debate, that this variance is mostly caused by a one-off Vote Finance initiative in 2021/2022, which was not part of Budget 2022. The committee noted that the three following expenditure items that had decreased in 2020/2023 were $1.11 billion for liabilities arising from the Large Scale Asset Purchase programme and the Business Finance Guarantee Scheme. This scheme is no longer available. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThe second decrease was $939 million for grants to the Crown Infrastructure Partners, which is around $817 million, and to \u014Ct\u0101karo Ltd, $122 to fund shovel-ready infrastructure projects, and $1.602 billion for share subscriptions in Air New Zealand, and $400 million for its standby loan facility. I just want to take an opportunity to thank Ministers for that support for Air New Zealand as the borders have opened up, as many members of this House have had to go overseas to travel for some of our inter-parliamentary obligations. I\u2019m really thankful that the Minister has been able to keep our national carrier going. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo the report is very fulsome from the Finance and Expenditure Committee. I thank all the different members across the House for their contribution to it. I did have one particular question I\u2019d like to leave the Minister of Finance with, and that was in relation to the clusters. If the Minister of Finance would like to just elaborate a little bit more on why they moved to a cluster approach in this year\u2019s Budget. What was the purpose of it and what are some of the benefits that the Minister can see as a result of it? Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad0d2f0425514e86a4e7239638225620\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad0d2f0425514e86a4e7239638225620\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you very much. And before I start, can I acknowledge the chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee and all members of the Finance and Expenditure Committee across the House for their good works in finding us to this point in the process and their interesting report that they\u2019ve done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ll come to the question that the member has asked in a moment. Just by way of introduction, when we look at this Budget in total and the fiscal aspects of it that are covered, particularly in the report of this committee, essentially what we were attempting to do with this Budget was cover off three main things. The first of those was around the question of fiscal stabilisation, that obviously we\u2019d had a significant period during COVID-19 where the Government spent large sums of money to support New Zealand businesses and households to deal with the impact of COVID-19. And what this Budget signals over the course of the forecast period is a return in terms of spending as a percentage of GDP to around the long-run average of 3 percent. We have reached up to 35 percent in response to COVID. This is a similar percentage to where the previous Government got to when they were dealing with the global financial crisis, where they reached around 34 percent of GDP. It is the nature of the way Government does its work that the balance sheet gets used in times of crisis like this. But, obviously, attempting to move towards a more stable fiscal position is important. We did that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAlongside that, we altered the fiscal rules for the Government, and these are articulated within the Budget documentation, in particular, looking to have both a measure of net debt that is more comparable with the rest of the world\u2014and we\u2019ve done that\u2014but also looking to a slightly different approach with a debt ceiling. That is put in place at 30 percent of GDP under the new measure of net debt, 50 percent under the old measure, which is a recognition that the balance sheet can handle going up to that ceiling. It is a ceiling, not a target, but it does provide a little bit more scope in the future for debt to be used in a flexible way as we have done through the COVID period. So fiscal stabilisation has been a really important part of this Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe second area is around the cost of living, and, obviously, people will be aware of the initiatives taken in the Budget on the cost of living, including the cost of living payment but also associated with and around the Budget, the work that we did to defray transport costs, in particular the cost of fuel and the half-price public transport, but also longer-term initiatives. And there was Budget night legislation associated with the removal of covenants that supermarkets put in place and the other initiatives flowing from the Commerce Commission report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAnd then thirdly\u2014and this does relate to the question that the member has asked me\u2014is a suite of initiatives that are, essentially, around how we go forward with our economic plan of a high-wage, low-emission economy that provides economic security to all. The Budget has two novel approaches, which I think are just worth reflecting on in this first call that I\u2019ll take. The first of those was the arrival of the Climate Emergency Response Fund\u2014as flagged at Budget 2021, that we would be doing this in Budget 2022. This is the hypothecation, the recycling of the money from the emissions trading scheme into emissions reductions initiatives. It was a significant programme of work; we front-loaded those initiatives to be able to make sure we got on with getting the emissions reductions that we need that are required for us to meet the goals that have been set through the zero carbon Act and through the Independent Climate Commission\u2019s carbon budgets. And so doing that was novel and different. It does involve a number of projects that stretch out over a number of years in the transport area and agriculture and industrial emissions, all of which are very important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe second end and different approach we took this year was the approach of clusters, one in the justice area and one in the natural resources area, both designed to be able to further the public finance modernisation programme that this Government has had under way. That\u2019s been designed to get the wellbeing approach developed by taking an intergenerational, multi-year approach to funding. So that means that justice Ministers, eight of them, had to come together for a single set of proposals based around a single set of goals and outcomes for that sector, as we did in the natural resources area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis means multi-year funding. So yes, it does mean drawing on funding from future Budgets, but it is also a requirement that those agencies don\u2019t come back within the three years and it does give them the certainty to be able to plan well. So that was an innovative and novel approach, we tested it out and we will be reviewing those pilots over the coming days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo within the Estimates that we\u2019ve been dealing with here, I think we as a country can look proudly on the record of New Zealand having got through COVID\u2014there are still challenges to come, but the Budget outlines a good plan to deal with those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u00224155de38fdb94a6fa9743a15e8d421b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224155de38fdb94a6fa9743a15e8d421b2\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m going to constrain myself to Vote Finance, and the narrow debate that we have before us, and I want to use as much of my time as possible for questions for the finance Minister. The context for this Budget is an enormous amount of borrowing and spending by the New Zealand Government. And I say that not just relative to history\u2014we\u2019re all very aware that COVID-19 necessitated a significant fiscal and monetary response\u2014but also relative to the world. New Zealand, relative to countries we like to compare ourselves with, was one of the second-biggest borrowers, relative to the size of our economy. And I note, in these Estimates, that means that the payments we are now making for interest, at $4.6 billion, exceed the funding we put into our primary schools each year. So there is a significant interest bill that taxpayers are paying today, and will be paying into the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ESo we have that debt side. We also have the money-printing that went on at the Reserve Bank. Now, that was one of the fifth-biggest monetary policy responses in the world. So we hit both accelerators hard; we hit the fiscal borrowing and we hit the money-printing hard in a way that there isn\u2019t much precedent for around the world. So my question for the Minister of Finance is about the liabilities for the Crown, resulting from that money-printing. These Estimates show that during 2020 and 2021, $3.1 billion was expensed to the Crown to recognise the liabilities arising from the indemnities that the Minister of Finance signed off for both large-scale asset purchases\u2014that is around $54 billion worth of bond buying, otherwise colloquially explained as \u201Cmoney-printing\u201D\u2014and the Business Finance Guarantee Scheme of $60 million. My question for the Minister of Finance is: did he consider that the interest rate differential could be such that the liabilities to New Zealand taxpayers would get this large, and what does that mean for the Crown accounts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce99fba68aeb42f59b689a8bc825e9d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce99fba68aeb42f59b689a8bc825e9d5\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for the question. Just before I come to the question of large-scale asset purchases, in the first part of the member\u2019s comments, she did refer to the finance costs and I just think, while the raw numbers are\u2014I\u2019m not contesting the raw numbers that the member read out\u2014it is very important to see those finance costs in the context of the overall economy. So, if we look at where we were in 2022, we\u2019ve got core Crown finance costs as 0.78 percent of GDP. They are forecast to peak in the forecast period at 1.15 percent of GDP in 2023-24. That is obviously higher than where we\u2019ve been in recent years, but low historically. And, at other times in New Zealand\u2019s history where we have had to borrow money at large rates, for various reasons, we have been paying significantly higher. So I just think that it\u2019s worth acknowledging that, yes, there has been an increase in the cost of financing for the Government but, relatively speaking to the economy, it\u2019s still low and historically is still low.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn terms of the large-scale asset purchases, clearly, the advice\u2014and I know, I think, the member has received this under the Official Information Act\u2014that we received, when the Reserve Bank was proposing to do this and when the indemnity was sought from the Government, was that interest rates wouldn\u2019t rise to where they are today. And I think the member would be hard pressed to have had a crystal ball back then, to have said that interest rates would have risen to the extent that they have. And so, yes, the liability to the Crown is significant\u2014you know, we\u2019re up over the $8 billion mark\u2014but the question the member needs to answer, and indeed anyone else needs to answer is: what\u2019s the counterfactual here? What would have happened had we not done this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c330a236e00643d9a6c89f2e02af1646\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Less money printed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bc2dfc43b874fad996a84e9bc2a34c8\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, what would have happened had we not\u2014because the member can\u2019t know that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022478bd1b3b174493ab97e933d691e24f2\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Less inflation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220f129ef65714cc3aa2abaa112810e5d\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The member can\u2019t tell me that she would be there\u2014March 2020\u2014knowing exactly where interest rates were going to be in two years\u2019 time. It\u2019s actually not possible, and the argument that the member would have to have undertaken is that she could have said, \u201CYou know what, I can cope with interest rates rising, but I think economic activity might come down by this much. I think I\u2019ll let unemployment go up.\u201D\u2014because that would be the member\u2019s other response here, presumably, is that she wouldn\u2019t have worried about where unemployment had got to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EMonetary policy and fiscal policy both had to act in response to the situation that we had, and we did not then have the benefit of the hindsight that we have today. So we made these decisions on a least-regrets policy. The Reserve Bank Governor was very clear that he was working off a least-regrets policy when the bonds were issued, and so, therefore, yes, there is a cost to the taxpayer\u2014absolutely\u2014but the counterfactual of the costs to the New Zealand economy had we not done this cannot be quantified today and, certainly at the time, looked to be significantly worse than the outcome the member is now complaining about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u00220d036ea786dd4195b79bb391eb5974b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d036ea786dd4195b79bb391eb5974b7\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E Did the Minister consider, at the time he signed off on the extraordinary indemnity, the possibility that significant money printing, to the tune of $54 billion, could potentially, through flooding money supply into the New Zealand economy, impact on inflation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00221de1eef92d384a4abc4e0df471da9a50\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221de1eef92d384a4abc4e0df471da9a50\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Firstly, any decisions we took around the question of an indemnity were based on the advice that we get. But, in the end, the Minister of Finance is responsible for those decisions. The advice that I received from the Treasury was that an indemnity was justified. The way in which the Reserve Bank\u2019s finances appear on the Government\u2019s balance sheet mean that, in a sense, we\u2019re moving money from one part of the balance sheet to the other, but, obviously, there\u2019s a marginal cost caused by being involved in the secondary bond market. When we did do this, we considered all of the options, both on the positive and the negative side. I repeat what I\u2019ve just said to the member: when we were doing this, we were facing the prospect of double-digit unemployment, we were facing the prospect of economic activity slowing significantly. Had the Reserve Bank, through its monetary policy, or, indeed, the Government, through its fiscal policy, failed to act, and had we seen a much-deeper impact on the New Zealand economy, I\u2019m quite sure that the member would be raising her concerns about that right now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EUltimately, the decision about how to use the tools for which an indemnity were granted fall to the Reserve Bank, and the Reserve Bank made those decisions. The granting of the indemnity from my part was based on the fact that I wanted to make sure that monetary policy was in a position to play its role. The final decisions about the amount of money and the various impacts that that would have fall to the Reserve Bank.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022b065d66be0de46ba88c67b3e6b568356\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b065d66be0de46ba88c67b3e6b568356\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E In light of that answer, in which he points to the Reserve Bank\u2019s responsibility for decision making about the sheer volume of money-printing, and his earlier comment that it is difficult to quantify the counterfactual, why won\u2019t the Minister support an inquiry into the Reserve Bank\u2019s response and whether or not it was appropriately scaled to the challenges in our economy? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022a72792ef63054b13ab22be2a7ec4c762\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a72792ef63054b13ab22be2a7ec4c762\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E This cuts to what I think is the heart of perhaps what\u2019s now emerging as a difference of opinion between the Government and the Opposition, which is that the operation of monetary policy does need to be independent, and I think New Zealand has had enough of a history to know the dangers of diverting from that level of independence. There will no doubt\u2014as I\u2019ve said on numerous occasions\u2014be the opportunity that will come for an inquiry into the broader COVID response, both from the economic perspective but also from the health perspective as well, and the time will be right for that. The time is not right for that in the middle of while we are still dealing with a COVID outbreak in the middle of winter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to the question of the way in which the Reserve Bank might consider this, the Reserve Bank has a board. The Reserve Bank operates independently from the Government, and I am not about to undo that consensus, even though the member might have some political mileage that she thinks she can make out of this. There will be the opportunity to do this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb99caac8a224427b9816308bfa15e0b\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, not allowed to ask questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222078c09615f647d58533b3c6f39cd908\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: There is the opportunity to do this. Well, it\u2019s interesting that the member says that, because I do note that the member has had more than a dozen opportunities over the course of the last two years to question the Reserve Bank Governor, and many opportunities to question me as select committee, as well. So the idea that somehow or other, this approach has had no scrutiny is absolute nonsense. It has had extraordinary amounts of scrutiny. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe member has also noted where New Zealand positions itself. Every central bank in the world had to deal with this issue and every central bank in the world did undertake this kind of quantitative easing, or unconventional monetary policy. That is something that should be recognised in this debate\u2014that, actually, the Reserve Bank of New Zealand, while it had to go earlier and harder than some others may have gone, was part of a global consensus in this regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u002205e6644678264088956bce49aa7aa4c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205e6644678264088956bce49aa7aa4c4\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green) (remote):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. I thank the Minister. I want to focus on how the economic response to COVID-19 and the ongoing inflation pressures have created winners and losers. We\u2019ve seen that those without assets and on the lowest incomes have gone backwards, while those with the most benefited from a huge boom in asset price. Some sectors of the economy, like hospitality and the arts, really struggled through lockdowns and the ongoing pandemic, but other large businesses have taken Government support that was given in the form of wage subsidies, and then we\u2019ve seen them record huge profits, paying out large dividends to shareholders\u2014many of those shareholders might not even be in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo my question, I guess, to the Minister is: given the response that the Government has taken to COVID-19, which saw $18 billion paid out to New Zealand businesses under the wage subsidy scheme, and then, most recently, to respond to inflation pressures, have taken actions like a more than $1 billion cut in petrol tax, fuel excise duty, and road-user charges\u2014at the same time, petro companies posting record profits. In other countries, we\u2019re seeing things like windfall taxes being proposed, particularly for energy companies or oil companies, which have been posting these huge record profits. In other places, it\u2019s called an excess profits tax. I guess I\u2019m wondering is the finance Minister and this Government going to consider how those companies who have benefited or profited from Government support, or from other circumstances that have nothing to do with their business but have enabled them to make excess profit well over and above what would be expected\u2014is there a way that the Government is going to ensure that that excess profit is coming back and is able to help the community here in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266f6b5d628c74f2993ac886fd588a32d\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf1853921de245df9c51c87172fddbe9\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, go ahead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022e40397a83acb41cab1909b1150bf7830\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e40397a83acb41cab1909b1150bf7830\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a little bit hard with a remote sitting to quite tell if the member had finished. In terms of her comments around the wage subsidy scheme, what I would say is that when we established the scheme, obviously it was established quickly in order to achieve the goals of cash flow and confidence for businesses. We tied the wage subsidy scheme to a criteria of employment attachment so that you could only get it if you were continuing to keep your staff. I strongly believe that that approach made sure that New Zealand\u2019s unemployment rate stayed lower than it might otherwise have been. We did not put other criteria on the wage subsidy scheme. So the idea that somehow or other we could ask those companies to give it back with some kind of justification being that things didn\u2019t quite turn out to be quite as bad as we thought, I think would be tremendously bad faith. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EA number of companies have made the decision to pay money back when they did achieve profitability, and I welcome that. But I simply don\u2019t believe we\u2019re in a position to ask for that money back, given that that wasn\u2019t the criteria. I also think there is a real risk that had we put further conditions upon people taking the wage subsidy, they would not have taken it and that would have seen more people lose their jobs than was otherwise necessary. And so, at this point in time, I stand by what we did there in terms of the wage subsidy scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe wider point that the member is making is about those companies who have done well through this period of time. And I would like to make the point that it is a wide range of companies. I sometimes think, in this debate, we get a little lost in understanding just who the majority of the New Zealand businesses who benefited from the Government support are. They are, by and large, small and medium enterprises, and I think sometimes we get numbers thrown around about balance sheets that are not accurate. Having said that, there are some large corporates in New Zealand who are doing well. They are contributing significantly more in corporate tax than we have otherwise seen, and the tax returns that we are seeing currently, while some of it is about inflation, it\u2019s also about the fact that our companies are continuing to do well and they are paying their tax, and that is the money that then gets returned to the community, as the member asks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ENew Zealand doesn\u2019t have a history of the kind of windfall taxes that you see in other countries around the world. And it\u2019s a little different than, perhaps, the UK, where energy companies can very clearly be said to have that. What we have done, particularly in terms of the petro companies, is, obviously, using the Commerce Commission\u2019s report, we now have passed a law that means we have a lot more information about the margins that are being charged and we are constantly keeping our eye on that to ensure that there aren\u2019t excessive margins. Similarly, in the supermarket sector, using the power of the Commerce Commission in their report, we\u2019ve been able to identify what we believe are excess profits and we\u2019re now moving to change that sector so that New Zealanders do get a fairer deal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022341dd9b9686e4f2295c69272b9fecb9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022341dd9b9686e4f2295c69272b9fecb9a\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s been a very interesting debate. I want to pick up on the Minister\u2019s question. What\u2019s the counterfactual if the Government hadn\u2019t signed a guarantee for the Reserve Bank to print $53 billion, which it ultimately loaned to, guess who, the Government. Well, what that did was it reduced the Government\u2019s cost of borrowing by a full percentage point. Some people think, \u201CA percentage point, that\u2019s not much.\u201D Well, when the Government borrowed $80 billion through the course of COVID, a percent is a lot of money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThe Government has put New Zealand so much further into debt because it has insisted on spending so much more money. It is now spending $127 billion a year; before COVID, $87 billion. And can the Minister ever explain what New Zealanders are getting for an extra $40 billion that they weren\u2019t getting when he was the finance Minister in 2019? I bet he could never explain that. So, on the one hand, \u201CCOVID was fabulously managed and COVID\u2019s over now and everything is good.\u201D, on the other hand, it is now costing $40 billion to deliver the same stuff. Arguably, if you talk to people in health or education or any Government service today\u2014at question time, we heard the Defence Force has half of their people thinking of leaving. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EArguably, things have got worse. So what was the counterfactual on the Reserve Bank printing all that money and pushing down the Government\u2019s interest rate? Well, the counterfactual is that the Government would have had to be honest with the New Zealand people and say, \u201CThis money that we\u2019re borrowing has real cost to future generations because interest rates will rise and that\u2019s when you\u2019ll see how much it cost.\u201D And people would have seen in the 2020 election quite how much debt this Government was putting New Zealand into and quite what the effect on future generations would be, and we would have had a much more sceptical view of this Government\u2019s handling of COVID if we saw the real cost. But did we see that? No. That\u2019s the counterfactual. What actually happened is that we saw a Government that signed a deal with the Reserve Bank\u2014 the Minister says it should be independent\u2014to print $53 billion that was loaned to the Government that reduced the Government\u2019s interest rate. As a result, this Government was able to borrow and spend and pretend that there was no tomorrow. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EExcept, tomorrow has come\u2014it\u2019s called today. And today, we see rising interest costs: $4 billion or $5 billion a year forecast in these Estimates. Just paying the interest on the debt as those interest rates rise\u2014that\u2019s what the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2019s report says. We see a tougher and tougher time for families who are now competing for resources with the State sector. That $127 billion sucked up by the Government in this Budget means the Reserve Bank is finally free to raise interest rates, and, as it raises those interest rates and every single person\u2019s mortgage rate\u2014and, if you are renting, you see it through your landlord\u2019s mortgage rate\u2014all of a sudden you see the real costs of this Government\u2019s response. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003ESo what was the counterfactual? An honest Government that didn\u2019t mess with the Reserve Bank, that didn\u2019t mess with interest rates, that faced the real cost, and that was honest with the people. But here\u2019s the other counterfactual: that people would have looked at what this Government was up to and said, \u201CThe real cost of this borrowing will go on for generations. The real cost of this borrowing will be inflation. The real cost of this borrowing will show up at the checkout, at the petrol pump, and my rent, and everything else I buy for years to come. And I\u2019m not so sure that Labour\u2019s doing such a good job.\u201D Those are the facts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EWell, I think that there was a better way, and, actually, ACT was saying it consistently in the select committee, to the Reserve Bank Governor, in the House, and in the public, to the media\u2014we were saying, \u201CThis borrowing will come back to bite us. We are going to be in trouble because this Government has distorted monetary policy; they\u2019ve lowered the interest rates artificially. And when all of that money sloshing around comes back to bite us, it\u2019ll do it in the form of inflation and rising interest rates.\u201D, as we see now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003ESo when this finance Minister stands up and says, \u201COh, we just had to print $53 billion. We just had to borrow $76 billion.\u201D There was no counterfactual. The counterfactual was some honesty. And the only problem with that scenario is that it would have had political implications for the Labour Party. Well, guess what! They didn\u2019t fix it; they just delayed it, because those implications are coming home to roost. Didn\u2019t we see it as recently as Monday night? Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002294da56f06b9a4ac4a632e90b8ca204fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294da56f06b9a4ac4a632e90b8ca204fd\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, to live in David Seymour\u2019s fantasy land! The member wants to talk about counterfactuals. Well, here\u2019s a pretty obvious one. The member clearly doesn\u2019t care about people losing their jobs. The member clearly doesn\u2019t care about small-business people, who woke up and said\u2014you know, I\u2019ll give the member an example. I met a gentleman when I was in Featherston during the 2020 election campaign. He was driving a filthy ute\u2014it wasn\u2019t Kieran McAnulty, but it was another member of the Wairarapa community!\u2014and this person turned around, did a U-turn, came and parked beside me, got out of his truck, walked over, shook my hand and said, \u201CYour Government\u2019s policy saved my business\u201D. He told me this story about the fact that he was driving to work to tell the four or five people who worked with him that they didn\u2019t have jobs anymore because people were cancelling their forward orders as they were worried about what COVID would mean. He said, \u201CThat wage subsidy meant that I could go in and say to those people, \u2018I\u2019m not sure what\u2019s going to happen, but you\u2019ve all got a job\u2019 \u201D, and 10 weeks\u201412 weeks\u2014later, when that wage subsidy expired, that person was able to carry their business on. That person was able to employ some more people. So if Mr Seymour wants to know what the counterfactual is, the counterfactual is people who live in the real world, Mr Seymour, people who actually have to employ other people, people who have jobs now, who may not have had them had we not done this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ENow, am I saying that every aspect of the Government\u2019s response is perfect? Of course not. No Government in the world had a playbook for how to deal with this. But isn\u2019t it interesting that Governments around the world made the decision to look after their people, and to look after their citizens? I remember standing in this House in both March 2020 and then again in May 2020, where I stood up and said, \u201CYes, there are different ways of approaching a crisis like this\u201D. We\u2019ve seen that in New Zealand\u2019s history, and we saw it when those who prefer austerity in these situations, which is, essentially, what Mr Seymour is saying; he doesn\u2019t care whether people lose their jobs, he doesn\u2019t think we need to fund public services properly. That is the counterfactual, that\u2019s the approach\u2014the austerity approach. Now, sure, Mr Seymour can propose that. But what I said that day in March 2020, when we did the first package to respond to COVID, and again when we did the Budget in May 2020, was I was not prepared to run the risk of New Zealanders losing their jobs, losing their homes, people not being able to continue to run their businesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ETime and time again in this House, I was asked by members in the National Party, albeit not as often by members in the ACT Party, to put more money in, to put more money into the small\u2014you, Mr Seymour, stood in this House and asked me to give more support to businesses in the Auckland area than we had given. The National Party constantly asked us to do that. They put up a package in 2020 that had even more money going in. We got the balance right, in my opinion, on this side of the House, because we did support New Zealanders through this. So, yes, it was an expensive undertaking, but it was an undertaking that fulfilled the values, I think, of New Zealanders, and certainly of the Labour Party, that we will look after people, that we will use the balance sheet to make sure people make it through a crisis. Mr Seymour\u2019s entitled to his view about a different way of doing this, but it\u2019s a different way that I believe would have had an enormous social, human, and financial cost in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe other matter that the member raised again was this question of finance costs. I\u2019m not sure if the member was in the House when I ran through this before. Yes, we are paying more for that. Interest rates have risen significantly. When I look at the advice that\u2019s been released under the Official Information Act at the point of time that we were signing off on this, the worst-case scenario had interest rates, the official cash rate, at 1 percent in 2023. No one was predicting where we are now, then. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea41cc6eac9c45b0883592c134d12b35\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, we were\u2014yeah, we were.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ea8d5bc055b4fe7b488fa1e85e10895\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, maybe Mr Seymour was perfect, and his crystal ball was perfect. But the point I\u2019m making is, yes, we did have advice about what the downside scenario was, and we did consider that. But we weighed that advice against the impact on people\u2019s actual lives. Not a theoretical exercise, not an ideological exercise; a practical response to making sure that we helped New Zealanders through what was and is the most challenging thing that has been to the New Zealand economy and society in my lifetime, and I\u2019m proud of our response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00229b5b1364420042b68c64427a4fc8688c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b5b1364420042b68c64427a4fc8688c\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a23a3c9a6434df69ec6c76458ec2ed2\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair, point of order. You gave three calls in a row to the National Party. As far as I\u2019m aware, in two hours of debate, you\u2019ve given\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1561031b5f44bb0904367aa429d113c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. The member will resume his seat. I want to thank the member for the point of order. By way of enlightenment for the committee, we have an hour set down, as members will know. I take calls based on the proportionality of the Parliament, the relevance of the questions, the length of time for each intervention, and I\u2019m being extremely careful to follow those tenets in this debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254068ac1413c44e291eed94d196fa7de\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Well, I think that the response that we\u2019ve just had from the Minister of Finance to David Seymour\u2019s question just shows the simplistic argument that he always runs, which is either it\u2019s all or nothing. And the issue is that, as my colleague pointed out, New Zealand had the second-highest response to COVID in the entire OECD\u2014basically the world. So we have had a Government\u2014and I\u2019m looking at you, the Minister of Finance\u2014which has allowed an incredible amount of money to be pumped into this economy. And my first question is, really\u2014look, with Mr Seymour\u2019s question, it is not that we shouldn\u2019t have done wage support. I\u2019m sure Mr Seymour supported the wage support mechanism. That was a $25 billion package. You were right, Minister: other people, including myself, asked for more support for businesses because we didn\u2019t think it went far enough. There is probably another $10 billion, roughly, I don\u2019t know\u2014take a guess of it\u2014that was good quality spending. But when you look at the totality, there was another $20 billion to $25 billion of absolute crap spending that has delivered no benefit to New Zealand. And that is the issue that we\u2019re raising. It\u2019s not we should have not spent it; the question is we should not have spent all of it. And there are 150 projects we identified that literally have delivered no benefit to New Zealand. So it\u2019s not an all-or-nothing debate; it is a question of quantum, and the Minister is overseeing a huge spend up on, basically, a whole range of wasteful projects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ENow, I want to return to my good colleague\u2019s questions about the large-scale asset purchase (LSAP) programme. I find it an absurd proposition that a Minister claims that the advice that they looked at and must have received from Treasury but took into account and chose not to take into account is that interest rates would not rise over the medium to long term. I think it\u2019s absurd. And he said it would get to 1 percent by 2024. In the case the Reserve Bank was buying back 10-year bonds\u2014up to 10-year bonds\u2014the proposition that interest rates would not rise over the 10-year period is an absurd proposition, and I think shows an absolute naivety of the Government. So my question to the Minister\u2014and I am trying to ask some questions\u2014is: why did you not think longer term, given that 10-year wind-out period? Or did you not require or seek any advice as to what would be the wind-out provision of the Reserve Bank buying all these bonds? First question\u2014and, if so, what was that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe second one is why didn\u2019t you put some conditions around the LSAP indemnity? Why didn\u2019t you say to the Reserve Bank, \u201CYou can do up to $20 billion, but then come back to us?\u201D What conditions did you put around it? My understanding\u2014and we have asked the Reserve Bank countless times\u2014is it seemed like an open-ended indemnity. Maybe the Minister can highlight some of those issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002264f2e6df409b45499e0c89c9fdf17cbd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264f2e6df409b45499e0c89c9fdf17cbd\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I will answer the member\u2019s questions, but I just want to reflect on the first half of what Mr Bayly just said and the absolute absurdity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo we have had a shifting of position, even just within this particular debate, about whether or not what the Government did during COVID-19 was useful. We previously had Nicola Willis saying it\u2019s all terrible; David Seymour saying it\u2019s all terrible; now, we\u2019ve got Andrew Bayly saying, \u201COK, the $25 billion that you did on business support via the wage subsidy scheme and resurgence support payments, that\u2019s good, but the next lot is not.\u201D Well, I\u2019ll tell you what the next-biggest one after that is, Mr Bayly: the health system. The money that we actually gave to make sure that New Zealanders got vaccinated, to make sure that our health services were ready to be able to deal with that, to be able to make sure that we had the staff that we needed\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7bc918c750d4907886a38cd44829f7f\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t have the staff\u2014a thousand short.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a689655a540744a79b10079150c4530c\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that we had the testing kits that we needed; all of that. Ms Willis can say whatever she likes; Mr Bayly has just called that spending, that saved thousands of New Zealanders lives, \u201Ccrap\u201D. That\u2019s what Mr Bayly\u2019s just told us all: that spending is \u201Ccrap\u201D. Well, that\u2019s why we did this in New Zealand: it was so that we could protect people\u2019s lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo, yeah, sure, we can debate the merits of some parts of the recovery part of the COVID Response and Recovery Fund. Personally, I think it\u2019s a good thing that we supported our artists to stay in jobs when their work dried up. Now, the Opposition doesn\u2019t think that was a good thing. Well, we can go out and debate that. That, as an amount of money within our total response, is marginal compared to the money we spent on the health system, compared to the money that we spent supporting businesses, and compared to the money through Ministry of Social Development that we spent supporting households so that they could put food on the table and look after their families. That\u2019s the vast bulk of the COVID Response and Recovery Fund, and that\u2019s what Andrew Bayly tells us is \u201Ccrap\u201D. Well, I could not disagree more with the member on that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn terms of the member\u2019s questions around large-scale asset purchases, to answer the second of those questions, the member may not recall, but there were two phases to the programme. The first of those was a dollar figure, but we then moved, in order to create some parameters to this, of the bonds representing up of 50, 30, and 30 percent of the different bond markets that we use. So we said, within a market we\u2019ll set a percent cap than a dollar cap. So that\u2019s how we did put some parameters around it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022807cec332e4a457493e5eeb099ab4069\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: A quantum limit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022717edad1f2224c46b80b7d528ef0fdf8\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, because we set it as a percentage of the bond markets that we were operating in. So there was a cap within that, because that was a much more sensible approach, given that a large part of what we were doing here was trying to induce some market confidence. That\u2019s what the member again forgets, given the time frame we were in: the fact the markets were spooked, and part of what this was about was making sure that the bond markets were able to continue to operate. We have to have good faith to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe member is concerned that, in the process, we didn\u2019t take advice about what would have been the impacts. I\u2019ve already told the member that we did take that advice; we considered those downside scenarios and that one of those downside scenarios was that interest rates would rise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d5f573fc7e249f6b9bd8375ea784a83\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: By 2024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfd93e3dcba648b2aeab1214328e35a5\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Ha! And, again, I invite the member to take himself back to that time. He can try and claim that he knew that the official cash rate would be where it is now, but, actually, that wasn\u2019t what was being forecast. But, to answer the member\u2019s question, yes, that was considered as part of the advice, and we weighed that up against the enormous economic impact that could come from us not stepping in and allowing the Reserve Bank to go forward with its monetary policy, or, indeed, undertake our fiscal policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002284dd722f92af4130b046e252d41f99ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284dd722f92af4130b046e252d41f99ce\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, a couple of minutes ago, the leader of the ACT Party took a point of order which I dealt with. The member then approached the Chair. His behaviour was disorderly, and I require the member to stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u00224b7c52160a4b42c388851c56e401419b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b7c52160a4b42c388851c56e401419b\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I withdraw and apologise. Point of order. Madam Chair, if a member can\u2019t approach the Chair and ask for the reasoning\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002271c8b3067fee4e59a2f3706568a7a2ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271c8b3067fee4e59a2f3706568a7a2ec\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The member will resume his seat. I\u2019m going to give the member one warning. The member will not contest the Chair\u2019s ruling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u00222799bbba70824bfa98c5dcd825fa334d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222799bbba70824bfa98c5dcd825fa334d\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E A simple question: does the Minister appreciate that supporting the independence of the Reserve Bank does not preclude assessing its performance? When he quotes the Reserve Bank\u2019s least-regrets approach, does he, as the Minister of Finance, acknowledge any regret for the massive house-price inflation that resulted from the stimulus, the 32-year highs in consumer price inflation that resulted, and the large impact on families, communities, and, ultimately, the financial stability of the New Zealand economy that resulted, and, if he does not have any regrets at all, does he acknowledge that some people do and a review is warranted? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002228d4100d9f644064a274924bf89295e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228d4100d9f644064a274924bf89295e0\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E In answer to first part of the member\u2019s question, the Reserve Bank has a board, and the Reserve Bank board has a responsibility to oversee the operations of the bank. The independence remains important to me. I think that New Zealand has been well served by having an independent central bank. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWe did a review of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Act, and out of that we did make some alterations. That included moving to a monetary policy committee. It included creating a more conventional board structure, and I\u2019m sure that at certain points in the life of the Reserve Bank in the future they may well choose to use that. I\u2019ve already indicated that I have a belief previously\u2014and not just today\u2014that there will be a time when there will be a comprehensive review of the Government\u2019s COVID response. That time will not be when we are still dealing with the outbreak that we\u2019re dealing with now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn terms of the second part of the member\u2019s questions around questions of regret, we do not get to govern in hindsight, and I know that the Opposition spokesperson is now a disciple of hindsight economics, but, actually, we are not in a position to do that. So, as I said in an earlier contribution, did we get absolutely everything right in our response? Of course we didn\u2019t\u2014no Government in the world did, and, indeed, I\u2019m sure that if the central bank governor was speaking, he would say the same thing about monetary policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EBut I think what we did get right\u2014what we did get right\u2014was that we moved quickly to support New Zealand households and businesses. We moved quickly to fund our health system properly. We entered into a vaccine roll-out programme that was among the most successful in the world, albeit there were problems about the pace that people worried about, but in the end, the outcome of it\u2014the number of people vaccinated\u2014was a success. We moved to make sure that those vulnerable families had money. We supported numerous organisations around New Zealand to make sure that there was food security for our people during this period of time. We made sure that we ran public health programmes that helped people understand what they could do, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo the money that we spent was spent to make sure that New Zealand got through a one-in-100-year health shock and the prospect of a one-in-100-year economic shock. That is a least-regrets policy, and it\u2019s one that I stand by. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u00222510dd38add14313824eeb1a4b4faa65\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222510dd38add14313824eeb1a4b4faa65\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green) (remote):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe. To the Minister, I really appreciate all of your comments. Of course, I think most of us in this House appreciate the steps the Government took to provide financial security to many people during the COVID-19 pandemic and the investment in the health sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe question the Greens are raising is: what systemic changes can be made to our tax system to ensure that those who are profiting or benefiting more from these sorts of interventions are really paying their fair share?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI think there\u2019s several areas that it\u2019s really obvious; it\u2019s easy to make lots of money in New Zealand. We know supermarkets, energy companies, banks, construction supplies, and petrol companies are all areas where there\u2019s an ability to wield huge market power because we are a small market, because we\u2019re far from other markets. And we have a situation of duopolies or oligopolies, which enables super-profits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo the question is: how do we make our tax system fairer so that when companies are in a position to be able to make these excess profits, enough of that is coming back to the community? I note that the National Party and the ACT Party complain constantly about Government spending, but you never see them complaining about the arguably under-contribution of corporates in this sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI guess, following Nicola Willis\u2019 contribution about how the Reserve Bank pumping lots of money into the economy did lead to an inflation in asset prices and house prices, one way that Government could come in and ensure that that doesn\u2019t become a privatisation of what was public policy\u2014a private benefit from public policy\u2014would be through a wealth tax, which the Greens previously proposed and which is very common in other jurisdictions, in other countries that we would compare ourselves to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s not so much a question of was it right for the Government to step in and spend money; the question is: how do we make sure our tax system is fair so that private individuals or corporates who are operating in sectors where there\u2019s limits to how much competition you can get\u2014how do we make sure the tax system is fair so that more of that excess profit can come back and benefit the community?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EUltimately, it\u2019s not down to things those businesses are doing that has led to their excess profits. It\u2019s not going to discourage investment, if we stop the excess profit; in fact, they\u2019d still be making money. It\u2019s just a higher tax rate on the excess profit, which would enable Government to invest more in public health, to invest more in cost of living payments, to raise incomes from the bottom, which is what we need. It\u2019s a rebalancing of the whole economic system that\u2019s needed, and I want to know what this Labour Government is going to do about it, if anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb8672d662c44b3eab9d02a5004583d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb8672d662c44b3eab9d02a5004583d7\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks, Madam Chair. I\u2019m conscious of both the fact that we have relatively little time left, but also that the question that the member has asked\u2014while it\u2019s a good question\u2014is not necessarily directly related to the Estimates that we\u2019re dealing with here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhat I can say that the Government has done, and is covered by what we\u2019re doing here, is address within the sectors that the members raised: supermarkets, the construction sector\u2014the competition aspects of those\u2014the fuel companies. Ones that we\u2019ve dealt with through the Commerce Commission\u2019s inquiries and we are now pursuing regulatory solutions. We did have the legislation, as I mentioned earlier on, when it comes to the covenants on land. So we\u2019re acutely aware of where there are sectors in our economy where I don\u2019t think New Zealand consumers are getting a fair price and where we should be focused on. So we are doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn terms of the tax system itself, I mentioned earlier, obviously, we are seeing a greater corporate tax take. That money comes back in and is redistributed to provide for the services that the member wants. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EBeyond that, she\u2019s asking questions which are, essentially, about tax policy, and, obviously, all parties in Parliament will have tax policies that they take to the 2023 election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc23df846921431ca40789f2325a6a4d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc23df846921431ca40789f2325a6a4d\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d like to return to a response to the Minister of Finance that I wished I could have made immediately after his call. He asked, what is the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b3f8e6a9a704e4c8617b86fdefed469\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Chair. I regard the comment that the member has just made as challenging the ruling that you made. I did actually witness briefly what occurred up here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce6fcc2af8e3453c8fee06454a1912ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce6fcc2af8e3453c8fee06454a1912ae\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. The member will withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206fa468903ef4d2ea96b6e58f5f09f15\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. I\u2019m simply stating that I think\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ca4edd7764347eba6bb12ea846e2b8b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: No. No. The member will resume his seat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225cce27d3a64d4d7dba2aff20f1c9dc26\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. It may be the Minister of Finance\u2019s view, and it may be that he doesn\u2019t want to hear more from me, but you don\u2019t even know what I was going to say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f93ad1557b2046a396dd8bd8d5136967\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f93ad1557b2046a396dd8bd8d5136967\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The member will leave the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour withdrew from the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002251447cf09e3a48268421b153f39526f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002251447cf09e3a48268421b153f39526f0\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I appreciate a little bit of time to go. But I\u2019ve got a question leading off from Nicola Willis\u2019s questions in regards to Labour\u2019s unsustainable deficits and, in effect, a Government living beyond its means.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe interest costs bill for the debt of this Government at the moment is in the region of $2.8 billion, that is slightly more than the entire police budget of $2.45 billion, forecasted by the end of 2025 to be in the region of $4.9 billion, which, for context\u2019s sake, is the same amount that we spend on the entire Vote Health and urban development of $4.6 billion or on the defence budget of $4.9 billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EMy question, Minister, is quite simply: is he concerned that one of the fastest-growing Government spending programmes is the repayment of Government debt? Because I think that is a significant concern, and for those people out in the public, looking and saying, well, look, the more we spend on the repayment of Government debt is less money available to spend on front-line services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EMy second question is around the fact that\u2014is the Minister concerned with the fact that the Government repayment of debt is going to be one of the fastest-growing areas of Government spending. The implication on that is a reduction in the ability to be able to spend on front-line services such as teachers, police, and our healthcare workforce.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ELastly, in the interests of time, I want to ask a question in regards to three waters, which is a significant element of Government expenditure. I want to know from the Minister of Finance whether he believes the nearly $3 billion that has been allocated to local government for the three waters \u201Cno worse off\u201D funding is good value for money? The context for that is that part or a portion of that payment in Auckland, $127 million, was utilised to repay an operating deficit from a prior period. It didn\u2019t lead to one single metre of water pipe going into the ground in that country, and I\u2019m sure that is probably a joint concern for both of us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022b356738407e94aab97dfc56f47f9e1f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b356738407e94aab97dfc56f47f9e1f4\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll try and keep it short so that there is a possibility for another contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn terms of deficits, I just would point out to the member that the National Party ran six deficits between 2009 and 2014. We are forecast to run five in response to COVID-19. Our largest deficit was 7.2 percent of GDP in 2020; National\u2019s largest deficit was 8.9 percent of GDP in 2011. Our deficits are forecast to average 3.2 percent of GDP; under National, they averaged 3.6 percent of GDP.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo I do take the point that the member is making that clearly, when we have to respond to a crisis in the way that we do, there is going to be pressure on the Government\u2019s books. The balance sheet is strong enough to manage this. Let\u2019s be really clear: New Zealand\u2019s level of debt is significantly lower than most other countries in the world. The debt-servicing costs, which I\u2019ve already run through twice in the House during this session, are historically very, very low.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to the second part of the member\u2019s question\u2014around three waters\u2014look, the \u201Cno worse off\u201D policy was the subject of discussion with Local Government New Zealand. It was a recognition that there was a change in the status of the assets that were available for local government. We did negotiate that with them. There are rules and requirements around how that money can be spent, but the member is right to recognise how Auckland Council used it\u2014he may not be satisfied with it, but in fairness to Auckland Council, the \u201Cno worse off\u201D agreement was one made with Local Government New Zealand as part of the way that we managed three waters process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002271402cab672a47ceb9e3547888a5567b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271402cab672a47ceb9e3547888a5567b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to take another call. Members have to be mindful I have to close the debate off 6.05 p.m. Happy to do that\u2014members, wish to work within that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00225e04f697f7d049418ab026e59ca292f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e04f697f7d049418ab026e59ca292f8\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to respond to the Minister\u2019s rebuttal of my earlier question. Look, National Party\u2014and this is what a Minister always does, is it\u2019s all or nothing. \u201CWe had to spend the money, and everyone, or the Opposition, said, \u2018You shouldn\u2019t have to spend any money.\u2019 \u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe second line of defence is saying, \u201COf course, we would have cut spending on health services and all that sort of stuff.\u201D The Minister knows that National would not have done that; that\u2019s not what I suggested. I did acknowledge that there was some other good spending other than the wage subsidy, but there\u2019s $25 billion that\u2019s unaccountable for and that was my point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe second point: the proposition that the Minister was in a new environment and quantitative easing and we had no idea that would lead to higher rates of interest, particularly over the course of the bonds\u2014which some are extending out to 10 years\u2014is, again, absurd because many economists knew about this. People like Charles Goodhart and a number of other monetary economists knew about this and were talking about it. And, of course, we have had periods where we\u2019ve had quantitative easing before\u2014actually in the history of the world, Mr Robertson; it wasn\u2019t just a one-off issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe question I want to put to the Minister now, though, is that there\u2019s $56 million set aside for the venture capital fund. The understanding I have is that this is going to be a plan: work with banks to provide money to small businesses to try and help those who can\u2019t get access to traditional finance. Why is it when I talk to banking executives, they say, \u201CWell, we don\u2019t know about it; we haven\u2019t agreed to it and don\u2019t really have any intention to do this.\u201D? So it\u2019s just a fascinating thing that there\u2019s a lot of rhetoric about supporting small businesses. The key part is the banks, but the banks don\u2019t seem to know much about it and certainly haven\u2019t agreed to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00222ea239fb26a64e7b8984b14aa2ac72c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ea239fb26a64e7b8984b14aa2ac72c5\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m very happy to respond to the member in regard to the Business Growth Fund, which is a little bit more than $56 million; $100 million is the contribution that the Government is planning to make. This based on very similar funds around the world. The UK and Australia are the two models that we\u2019ve looked closely at; the UK one, in particular, has been very successful in ensuring that small businesses can keep going.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not just the funding; the business growth fund in the UK also has linked to it the provision of support, in terms of how to grow a business\u2014so, for example, people being seconded on to the boards or the governing bodies of small businesses, as well as access to patient capital.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe critical involvement of the Government is to crowd in the retail banks. I think I said on Budget day that there was still a bit of work to do with the banks to get them to fully agree and sign up\u2014but it\u2019s completely untrue to claim that they don\u2019t know anything about it. I\u2019ve met and spoken to, I think, the chief executive of every major bank in New Zealand on this subject. The Reserve Bank is doing its work\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdc0a04c7fb64a3cbc1c051aa8341e33\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Any commitments?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022111a4e9032de4f3085cc9af23b2c05b9\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and there has been a very solid level of commitment to keep talking to us about how this will work. So I did say that there would be more work required but that doesn\u2019t mean that we have to have some completely, fully formed, perfect idea before we even talk about it. It\u2019s an exciting prospect, and I\u2019m sure banks will want to be involved in it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll also point out to the member that there\u2019s been a significant amount of other support for small businesses, including the Small Business Cashflow Loan Scheme, the work that IRD\u2019s done in terms of supporting people with various taxation requirements, and, obviously, the wage subsidy scheme itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022af98e6d48e1b4727912d885e2aac2871\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af98e6d48e1b4727912d885e2aac2871\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for me to leave the Chair for the dinner break. The House will resume at 7 p.m. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6.03 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f600f35bf49c4c36a0f583e759d073e1\u0022\u003EEnvironment, and Oceans and Fisheries\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00220fd9ed7e794b4498b0f7594599b9e528\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220fd9ed7e794b4498b0f7594599b9e528\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Good evening, members. When we broke for the dinner break, we were debating the Estimates. We now have the Minister for the Environment and for Oceans and Fisheries. The Minister is available from 7 p.m. until 8 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u00229332baea420d46f38e7636213b96b9bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229332baea420d46f38e7636213b96b9bb\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Chairperson of the Environment Committee):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m pleased to report from the Environment Committee, which examined Vote Environment, Vote Conversation, and Vote Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, but we\u2019ll focus on Vote Environment here. There are three very comprehensive reports on the committee\u2019s examination of each of these Votes, and, of course, Vote Environment also included Vote Climate Change on Parliament\u2019s website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EIn terms of Vote Environment, it\u2019s $2.9 billion, but the Minister for the Environment, who\u2019s with us today, is responsible for nearly $557 million of that. There has been a significant increase in funding in Vote Environment, largely because of the significant programme of work in resource management and water management reform since 2018-19, and quite an increase in this current financial year 2022/23 in funding for waste management water reform and policy advice there, and, of course, for resource management reform. The committee was interested in the significant increase in the staff of the Ministry for the Environment\u2014up to 825 staff compared to 372 in 2018-19. A lot of those staff are working on the resource management reform programme, also in the Essential Freshwater programme which, of course, really got up to speed in 2020. We looked at things like the amendments to the wetlands regulations and the major investment in Budget 2022\u2014some $35.6 million in farm plans for fresh water.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EOne of the other issues the committee considered was the funding for the Environmental Protection Authority (EPA), and, because it relies quite heavily on revenue recovery from its fees, the revenue has dipped by half a million dollars in the current year compared to last year, and that means it is under some pressure\u2014for example, it\u2019s got 43 chemicals that it has identified as a priority for reassessment, but it can only do one or two of those each year. But we were heartened by the fact that there is a review under way of funding for the EPA, which the Ministry for the Environment is involved in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EI\u2019m really pleased that there\u2019s quite a significant increase in both funding for waste minimisation through the increase in the waste levy, which was initiated last term, and a lot of work being done on policy in this space in terms of the container return scheme; a long-term infrastructure plan for waste; Government\u2019s plans to divert organic waste from landfill; and a new waste strategy. The committee also looked at Jobs for Nature, both for Vote Environment and Vote Conservation, and heard that some 378 projects have been contracted across the programme, and 8,000 nature-based jobs created as part of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EIn terms of the climate change appropriations, there has been quite an increase there and, obviously, a big programme of work with the emissions reduction plan and the new Climate Emergency Response Fund, which takes the proceeds from the emissions trading scheme which are earmarked for spending for action to reduce emissions. We also heard a little of the new Climate Change Chief Executives Board, which, given the 300 actions in the emissions reduction plan, has chief executives across Government agencies working to coordinate that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo a huge body of work is happening both in Vote Environment, in Vote Conservation, and the work of the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, and I do encourage members and the public to look at the committee\u2019s reports. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00223dd941d4ff1e49dd8b5730a8674ec678\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223dd941d4ff1e49dd8b5730a8674ec678\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I call the Hon Stuart Smith\u2014oh, sorry, the Hon Scott Simpson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00229f74afc4fccd42099dbd02d25ef2e7fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f74afc4fccd42099dbd02d25ef2e7fd\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E He will soon be, Mr Chair\u2014soon be. Not long to wait now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThe Environment Committee chair, the Hon Eugenie Sage, has actually done, I think, a very good job in summarising the nature of the hearing that we had back in June to discuss Estimates with the Minister for the Environment. But when I was listening to her assessment of what we discussed, I could not help but draw the conclusion, actually, that, for the last five years, we have heard very similar commentaries from the select committee chair: a lot about what\u2019s going to happen, a lot about the money that has been spent and the increase in taxpayer money that has been allocated, a lot of talk about the increased number of people working in the Ministry for the Environment, but almost no delivery, in that five years. Very little\u2014still talking about the same things that this Government was talking about five long years ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ENow, we find that the much-vaunted resource management reform programme appears to be utterly mired, stuck somewhere either within the Government caucus or the factions that lie within it, or in the Ministry for the Environment\u2019s huge staff numbers. But somewhere in amongst all that, it seems not to be making progress. We were told that the Minister hoped to introduce the two fundamental pieces of legislation in October, and so one of the questions I have for him is: is he still confident that that date will be met, and will the natural and built environments legislation and the strategic planning legislation come to this House before Christmas? Will it be in this calendar year, and, if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EOne of the issues that I want to traverse is the $178 million that was allocated over four years for implementation of the new legislation, and the new regulatory environment that will accompany it. What I\u2019m keen to know from the Minister tonight is: how much of that $178 million has already been spent? What has it been spent on, and, by whom, and where? And what are the benefits so far, to date? We heard back in June, from the Minister, that the select committee\u2014we were given an assurance that the select committee process would not be truncated, that it would be a full select committee process, even though the two pieces of legislation would be considered by the select committee and the Parliament simultaneously. That, we know, creates difficulties and challenges for the committee, but also difficulties and challenges for those people who are interested in submitting\u2014for councillors, for councils, for stakeholders, for environmental NGOs, and for citizens. That will be a tricky call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo those are my first few questions, and I\u2019d be happy to hear from the Minister on those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00224befcacb2be64adb8b20e3a078356ea5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224befcacb2be64adb8b20e3a078356ea5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Can I thank the Environment Committee for the work that they did examining the Estimates, and thanks for the chair\u2019s summary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EResponding to the Hon Scott Simpson\u2019s questions, the suggestion has been made that we\u2019ve been dragging our feet on Resource Management Act (RMA) reforms, so I thought I would explain to the committee the process that has been run. Of course, in the nine years of the National Government, there was a suggestion that the RMA should be reformed, and it never was. We came to office\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2d3b9024a7e4eb4a7d489638af1a021\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s because Labour opposed every single initiative.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d895f86fd9d4514a93575de555ddcf6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s because Labour opposed it? Actually, we weren\u2019t in Government; the National Party had the votes, but they didn\u2019t choose to prioritise that. Notwithstanding the fact that the RMA has, for a long time cost too much, it\u2019s taken too long, and it hasn\u2019t properly protected the environment; nor has it enabled the development outcomes that we need, as evidenced in part by the lack of housing opportunities that we have in New Zealand, which have driven land prices so high.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo when we took office, we realised that RMA reform was necessary, but we also realised that there were two urgent matters that needed to be addressed first. One was making advances on land supply, which we\u2019ve done through instruments like the National Policy Statement on Urban Development, and the medium-density residential zone, which the National Party, together with the Green Party, cooperated with us on. And we also needed to make progress on water quality, because freshwater quality has been degrading in the country quite badly, to the point where the majority of rivers and lake sites that are monitored by councils for safe swimming are not safe to swim in, in summer, according to World Health Organization standards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo we made significant progress on both of those issues during the last term, and then, towards the end of last term, kicked off a review of the RMA system led by the Hon Tony Randerson QC, a retired Court of Appeal Judge. He, in turn, built on earlier reviews, one of which was done under the National Party\u2014and I thank them for that\u2014by the Productivity Commission. Other reports were by Local Government New Zealand, through the Environmental Defence Society, the Employers and Manufacturers Association (Northern) Inc., Infrastructure New Zealand, the Property Council, and, of course, another report by the Waitangi Tribunal. We then said, \u201CLook, we\u2019ll broadly implement the Randerson report.\u201D And we are following that. The $178 million that is in this Budget moves towards implementation of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe implementation money is spread over four years. We\u2019re already starting to spend that this year on putting together the national planning framework, which is the consolidated form of national direction that provides guidance. If you have the Natural and Built Environments Act (NBA) and Spatial Planning Act (SPA) sitting at the top, the next layer of rules sits in the national planning framework, which then inform the SPA and NBA plans. So in order for the new system to operate, you need the national planning framework to be in place. We also have money for draft plans, including assisting probably three regions with their first SPA and NBA plans. Plan formats and some electronic tools are being developed. All of those things are necessary to make sure that this new system launches efficiently, because, I think, one of the lessons that we\u2019ve all learnt in this House, across the House, is that the lack of national direction, the lack of standard plan formats, the lack of central government assistance in the first plans to manage out, if you like, unnecessary complexity and divergence between plans\u2014so I think that answers the member\u2019s question about money for implementation and RMA time frames.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EFinal point: yes, we are intending to introduce legislation in October, and we still expect a full six- month select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u002200d2fd1e35694a67a61a101d5fb44afd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002200d2fd1e35694a67a61a101d5fb44afd\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Minister, the Infrastructure Commission stated that consenting infrastructure cost New Zealand about $1.3 billion in the last year. That\u2019s just the paperwork\u2014just getting the consents. That\u2019s not building a sediment detention pond, that\u2019s not turning up on site and moving the owls or shifting the frogs\u2014that\u2019s just the paperwork, Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EAuckland quarries have been, essentially, sterilised by the freshwater rules, which prohibited developing anything that is a wetland\u2014and a wetland being a 3-square-metre patch of bulrushes in a wet field. That\u2019s regulation that the Ministry for the Environment produced that you signed off and that is now affecting the ability of infrastructure projects to proceed. More recently, consents have been declined to extract sand from off the North Auckland coast\u2014that vital special sharp sand used for making concrete in the City Rail Link project and in the Central Interceptor waste-water project; a project to keep sewage off Auckland beaches. Without these consents for vital resources, Minister, infrastructure cannot proceed, even if we could afford $1.3 billion just to get consents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, I have three questions for you this evening. How will enshrining race-based co-governance in planning legislation make it easier to consent vital infrastructure, say, for example like Port of Tauranga\u2019s wharf extension; Transpower\u2019s transmission lines over Tauranga Harbour?\u2014question 1. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EQuestion 2: in reply to a written question that I asked the Minister about the Port of Tauranga being refused the opportunity to use the fast-track Environmental Protection Authority (EPA) consenting process to consent their vital wharf redevelopment\u2014which they believe is vital in order to avoid major blockages in the supply chain for New Zealand\u2019s largest export port by volume and revenue\u2014the Minister has declined to allow that consent to proceed through the EPA fast-track process. So, Minister, how will the Natural and Built Environments Bill (NBE) reforms and Spatial Planning Act reform make it easier, whether it incorporates co-governance\u2014or what other methods would make it easier to consent this type of infrastructure? Because that\u2019s just not clear from the reform agenda or from the information we\u2019ve had back from officials, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EFinally, there\u2019s been great apprehension expressed at the Environment Committee recently on the emissions reduction plan, no less; that the Resource Management Act (RMA) as it currently stands and the Natural and Built Environments Bill\u2014the replacement bill for the RMA, which we\u2019ve analysed as an exposure draft at Environment Committee\u2014will actually make it harder to get consents to achieve a renewable energy target. They claim that the environmental bottom lines, which are included in the NBE Bill\u2014a lack of provision for offsetting environmental effects by this inevitable dilemma we face: if we want to build infrastructure, whether it\u2019s a renewable energy, whether it\u2019s a waste-water treatment plant or a road, we build it in the natural environment, and the submitters have claimed that without the ability to offset environmental effects, they\u2019re not going to be able achieve our renewable energy targets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, could you please provide assurance? Will you be enshrining race-based co-governance in your resource management reform? Will you allow for fast-track consenting for vital infrastructure now\u2014right now\u2014and in any subsequent reform? And will the natural and built environments\u2014or whatever the replacement is for the RMA\u2014allow for offsetting for environmental effects? Thank you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002288205ac1399847d589df82a6c205de7b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288205ac1399847d589df82a6c205de7b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for those questions. In respect of the first comments around infrastructure and costs of infrastructure, one of the objectives of this reform is to reduce those costs because they are absurdly high in New Zealand. The cost of consenting infrastructure, according to the Infrastructure Commission\u2014an organisation that this Government created in the last term\u2014it had an investigation into those costs and they have increased for mid-size infrastructure by 150 percent over about 10 years, so those consenting costs are now 250 percent of what they were a decade ago; an absolutely absurd waste of money. One of our objectives is to reduce those costs, and we will. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EHow are we going to do that? In a number of ways. The new national planning framework (NPF) will include a development chapter which addresses infrastructure matters, and that work is being led by the Infrastructure Commission with assistance from other agencies. It\u2019s not being led by the Ministry for the Environment; it\u2019s being led by the Infrastructure Commission. That chapter in the national planning framework will be one of the few new chapters in the NPF, the rest being transitioned in from existing national directions. Otherwise, you just can\u2019t land it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe effect of that will be that spatial plans identify routes for, for example, a new highway or new rail route, or they might identify another area; once you have population growth, it ought to be opened up to housing and therefore needs roading infrastructure or a school or a hospital or a police station. Those sorts of things will, at a high level, be identified in a spatial plan under the Spatial Planning Act, and they will then flow through into Natural and Built Environments Act plans, including designations which can last for longer. And the activity, once a trigger is met\u2014it might be population\u2014means that we need a new rail link out to the south of Auckland or something like that, that will flow a lot easier and, on occasions, will be a permitted activity rather than something that requires a complex consent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENow, in order to do that, some of the complexity that lies in bespoke conditions of an individual consent has to be standardised. So there will be a series of standards that are promulgated, for example, for sediment control. And there might be a series of standards\u2014there might be standard A for a small project or standard B, C, or D if it was becoming more complex. The sediment problems in the likes of Transmission Gully would be more complex than in a small subdivision. And so the applicant might say, \u201CWe\u2019re proposing standard A.\u201D and the council might come back and say \u201CStandard C\u201D, but in either case that standard doesn\u2019t need to be set out in bespoke detail. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the question about direct referral and the Tauranga example, the applicants and the council agreed to refer that directly to the Environment Court. It is a contentious project and it\u2019s one that we thought the public should have the opportunity to make a submission upon, which they don\u2019t get the opportunity to if the fast-track process was used. That was one of the reasons why I, as the responsible Minister, declined to put that through fast track. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EOne of the problems that they\u2019ve encountered in that case is a dispute as to who should be notified. Currently, under the Resource Management Act, those disputes can only be resolved by way of judicial review of the non-notification decision to the High Court. That can slow processes down and add cost, and it\u2019s being proposed that plans are a lot clearer as to the classes of people that should have to be notified and shouldn\u2019t have to be notified. And in the event that there is still doubt\u2014because you can\u2019t cover every eventuality in the plan\u2014those disputes will be resolved by the Environment Court rather than judicial review to the High Court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the questions around wetlands, the member is correct that there have been some problems with the definition of \u201Cwetlands\u201D; we didn\u2019t get that quite right. The member is wrong to suggest that has meant that we can\u2019t supply concrete to Auckland, as evidenced by the fact that concrete shortages have not been in the news; Gib shortages have been. But we\u2019re building twice as many houses as were built when we came to office, and we\u2019re supplying them all with the concrete that they need. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the changes to the wetland provisions, an exposure draft was provided to the industry because there is a lot of important detail in it, and we have received feedback on that and we\u2019re expecting those changes to be promulgated\u2014is it by October? Yes, my officials confirmed by October, we\u2019re expecting the final document.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00226d4ab732e1cd43a98baea057d6de8cc8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d4ab732e1cd43a98baea057d6de8cc8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Stuart Smith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u00220d166b78ee1c4e47b59bf229aaf243e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d166b78ee1c4e47b59bf229aaf243e3\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. You missed the \u201CHon\u201D you gave me earlier; I was hoping that might stick around a bit longer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291361f49436e45d898ad954486d942e4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve been put right in the interim, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288c48cd88348499197fe55cc1da45a62\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you\u2019ve got a version of it. Thank you. And thank you, Minister, for the answers that you\u2019ve given. I want to talk about, and get some information about, seabed mining. The Minister will be aware that the Prohibition on Seabed Mining Legislation Amendment Bill has been introduced to Parliament\u2014a member\u2019s bill that seeks to ban seabed mining and retrospectively ban existing seabed mining consents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to point out to the Minister that he will be well aware that the oil and gas ban had a very significant effect on New Zealand\u2019s reputation in terms of our sovereign risk. I know from feedback from business contacts that significant lending institutions overseas now view New Zealand as very high risk in terms of sovereign risk, and that has a chilling effect on investment right across\u2014not just in the oil and gas sector or in mining sectors, or extractive industries\u2014that is \u201CNew Zealand Inc.\u201D is seen as a sovereign risk. So I would like the Minister to clear up: does he have any intention to ban seabed mining, and, if he does, does he have any intention to retrospectively ban existing mining consents\u2014seabed or otherwise? And what evidence has he seen\u2014if he has seen any\u2014that shows that seabed mining can be carried out without detrimental environmental effects? Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2c09217354a44ccb2eb890d22b19a54\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2c09217354a44ccb2eb890d22b19a54\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. We haven\u2019t, in the Labour Party, taken a position on the Prohibition on Seabed Mining Legislation Amendment Bill that the member refers to, which is a M\u0101ori Party member\u2019s bill. So I can\u2019t illuminate the member any more in respect of that. In respect of the earlier ban on the issue of additional mining areas other than on land, we stand by that decision because we recognise that you can\u2019t keep developing fossil fuels and meet your climate targets, as a world, and we think that was appropriate. New Zealand isn\u2019t running out of gas\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229376dc48c5324c4db61bf97fbddb48fa\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ll just import the coal from Indonesia!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fb1910e7ac44e5bb2790a2d74d3d6e0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member opposite said we just import the coal from Indonesia\u2014that\u2019s got absolutely nothing to do with the offshore oil ban. And the member will be aware that, under the New Zealand electricity system, in a dry year, we are reliant upon Huntly and supplies of coal for it. Until we get to the point where we can retire Huntly, we\u2019ll continue to need it, which reminds me of a question that Simon Court raised that I didn\u2019t answer, which was this tension between climate and consenting renewables. That is a very real tension. You can\u2019t resolve all of those tensions through legislation, because you can\u2019t say that all renewables ought to be always consented. Sometimes they ought not to be, because there\u2019s an alternative project that would be better, with less environmental damage. But members will be aware that I\u2019m quite interested in quite a controversial plan down south in respect of Lake Onslow that would be controversial to consent, but should still be able to be properly considered as being part of the energy mix that we need in the future so that we can retire Huntly, for example, and therefore not need to import coal in a dry year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u002292da98c2ca2f452aa73fa43b1c0bc648\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292da98c2ca2f452aa73fa43b1c0bc648\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. The Minister is responsible for the Rangit\u0101hua/Kermadec Ocean Sanctuary Bill. Vote Conservation allocates $1.86 million over four years for progressing that bill. So is there any prospect of the bill being progressed and having the sanctuary established in the current financial year, given that $345,000 has been allocated to that, or does the fact that the funding has been allocated until 2025-26 mean that we won\u2019t get a sanctuary until then? What recent discussions has he had with mana whenua Ng\u0101ti Kuri and Te Aup\u014Duri about the sanctuary, and is it correct that the agreement that the Minister and his officials may have negotiated with Te Ohu Kai Moana may not be accepted by mana whenua\u2014my first question. And then, in terms of the south-east Otago marine protected area network, public consultation on that finished in August 2020. There were two rounds of consultation under the Marine Reserves Act. There was also a quite diverse stakeholder group, which consulted the public and provided its recommendations. So why, some two years later, has there been no announcement about the establishment of new marine protected areas? What are the barriers to their establishment, and when does the Minister expect to announce any progress?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022562aee536caa4302a12d7cb780452600\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022562aee536caa4302a12d7cb780452600\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E Look, Mr Speaker, I don\u2019t mind answering these questions, but those are Vote Fisheries. Are we having this debate together?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208a8a15422f84b688045b60baa069089\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, yes\u2014just for the information, members, these debates will be held together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cf6018c6b374824aa0cd885dec01328\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. In respect of Rangit\u0101hua, or Kermadecs, the member asks when I last spoke with northern iwi Te Aup\u014Duri, Ng\u0101ti Kuri, and a third, whose name I forget\u2014I apologise for that forgetfulness. In fact, I\u2019ve spoken with representatives of all three iwi in the last week. When would have been the last time I spoke with them? Probably, with two of the three, I would have spoken with them during the prior month. Have I spoken with other parties? Yes, including Te Ohu Kai Moana Trustee Ltd. Is there a prospect of this being finalised this year? That\u2019s possible. Is it certain? No. I think that answers that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00224f25d51e9b734fcb9f36183bba1cbf07\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f25d51e9b734fcb9f36183bba1cbf07\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll give the call to Jo Luxton. Just as a consequence of explaining that the Minister\u2019s two portfolios will be heard together, it\u2019s appropriate that the chair of the Primary Production Committee have a call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u002239fe151aeb5a4fb4aef7428d363e3e29\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239fe151aeb5a4fb4aef7428d363e3e29\u0022\u003EJO LUXTON (Chairperson of the Primary Production Committee):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise and take a call as the chair of the Primary Production Committee. I\u2019d just like to acknowledge my fellow committee members; we are a great committee, very collegial, and we get some really good work done. This year, we looked at the fisheries appropriations. The total appropriations this financial year are $82.6 million. It\u2019s estimated to be 13.7 percent less than the estimated actual expenditure of 2021 and 2022, and $65.4 million is to inform, assist, direct, and enforce adherence to fisheries laws. We heard from the Minister about this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EWe spoke to the Minister about several things. We questioned him about changes to fisheries enforcement and monitoring, funding for research and development, marine protected areas, frequency of fisheries stock assessment, the risk of ecosystem shifts, and increasing cost of marine fuel. When we asked the Minister what he expected the outcomes to be for the $65.4 million that was going to be going into enforcement and monitoring, he felt that it would improve compliance and that would largely be through the introduction of cameras on fishing vessels. He noted that was something that would likely be able to happen through the Fisheries Amendment Bill that was actually before the select committee at that time. Cameras on fishing vessels has come about through successive work by the last few Governments wanting to make that happen. So that\u2019s a really positive thing that we heard from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003ERegarding the funding for research and development, the committee noted that despite there being funding available, there didn\u2019t seem to be a lot that was put in to research and development. The Minister actually agreed with that, and said that he felt that there was enormous potential to increase profits by being more resourceful with fishing catch, and that new technologies would actually be key to increasing productivity and reducing environmental harm from fishing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard, as I said, that the Minister was happy with the frequency of fishing stock assessment, even though it had reduced from around 200 days a year to 60. So, all in all, we heard just a few things from the Minister. The fisheries, we feel, is going to be in really good shape. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EI just want to acknowledge the Minister and the officials and the clerks of the select committee who put a lot of time and work into preparing these reports for us. Thank you, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022be9a962b0133497bb3095dfd9f3e39d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be9a962b0133497bb3095dfd9f3e39d8\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019d like to come back to resource management issues. In particular, I\u2019m keen to know from the Minister what progress has been made on the templated plans, and, if there has been progress, when will they be made public?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESecondly, has he finalised which three regions will be selected to develop the first Spatial Planning Act (SPA) and Natural and Built Environments Act (NBA) plans?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00227a91c5c58a1d472d96e8380e9226088a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a91c5c58a1d472d96e8380e9226088a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E There is work that is being done by the ministry to develop templates. They\u2019re not finished yet, and they will be developed as the first three model plans are prepared. To a certain extent it\u2019ll be \u201Ctrial by doing\u201D. We did consider having one format and just doing one trial plan, but we thought that we would learn more if we had three running and took the best of them rather than just thinking we would get it right in one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn terms of which areas will be the three, we haven\u2019t finalised that. We\u2019re anticipating that decision being taken by about November\u2014I think it is, from memory; might be October. I think it\u2019s November. We\u2019re looking to have a variety of different regions. I would like one region to include the mix of a metropolitan centre, rural issues, and provincial centres and their suite of environmental and development issues. Another one, which could be a unitary authority which covers both regional and district council functions, and a third where there are complex overlapping iwi issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWhich reminds me that another question that I didn\u2019t address of Mr Court\u2019s was whether we\u2019re proposing a co-governance model. We\u2019re not proposing a fifty-fifty co-governance model, but we are proposing that M\u0101ori have a role on the planning committees. But it won\u2019t be a co-governance arrangement in the manner that he describes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u002228465291ea2d40bcb37b63d048657b78\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228465291ea2d40bcb37b63d048657b78\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Minister, if we could just go back to Vote Environment again, carrying on: essential fresh water and $35 million spent for farm plans. It\u2019s sort of come to my attention that 60-odd percent of those farm plans have been enacted and/or enabled, and that, suffice it to say, leaves a fair old percentage that are not. Is he concerned about the overburden in that regard, and how that is reconciled? Then, for the love of all things common sense, how do you that in play so that by 21 November\u2014as you can imagine\u2014these winter-grazing realities to do with those winter farm plans can, in fact, be enabled? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve heard anecdotally that many councils are now concerned that they are going to have to go through a whole lot of consent regimes, and the sanctioning or granting of those consents because of that. How does he reconcile that with the exorbitant amount of money that\u2019s being spent, and is he concerned that this will then, by virtue of the fact, create an animal feed shortage, especially for those farmers that use it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00220e48eba1d9194af49804399587dd0947\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e48eba1d9194af49804399587dd0947\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E In respect of farm plans more generally, as opposed to the intensive winter-grazing module, having farm plans as an alternative to resource consents was an idea that was promoted by the farming community, which Government accepted. It allows a farm-by-farm solution to local issues. The farming community wanted this, and, in the end, the regional council sector and Government officials agreed that that was the way forward. In order for them to be a substitute for legally binding resource consent conditions to control adverse environmental effects, they do have to have some rigour about them, and people have to be held accountable if they\u2019re saying they\u2019re going to do something a certain way to, for example, reduce sediment load. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENow, we have serious problems in New Zealand with sediment load getting into our rivers, to the point where we haven\u2019t just got clogged-up estuaries without any flounder left and dead cockle beds; we\u2019ve also got degraded inshore fishing areas. We have kelp beds that are far, far smaller than they used to be, and the kelp beds that are remaining are much thinner. An example was given to me recently by a fisherman who is in his late 60s or 70s now. He said that when he started fishing, you couldn\u2019t drive through kelp beds in your fishing boat at low tide; now you can, because they\u2019ve thinned out so much. This is because of a lack of photosynthesis in deeper water caused by increased turbidity, which is caused by more land-based sediments getting into the water, and I think most people in New Zealand, including farming groups, want to do better on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENow, you can try and do that by way of rules and plans, but you\u2019ll end up over-regulating some things and under-regulating others, and it can become more complex than it need be. So we\u2019re going to use farm plans as a substitute for that. A farmer might say, \u201CLook, these are the critical areas that are the source of sediment on my property. It\u2019s that face over there. I know that we all need to do our bit. I\u2019m going to fence that off so that the cows can\u2019t get in there\u201D\u2014or the sheep or whatever\u2014\u201Cand we\u2019re just going to let a bit of vegetation regrow in that and plant a wee bit extra.\u201D Now, that will be recorded in a farm plan and someone will give it the tick as saying that this is an adequate farm plan, and then someone one day will come back and check that it actually has been fenced, because otherwise it\u2019s less likely that it will be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo that farm plan regime is being stood up, including with assistance from central government. Now, these systems aren\u2019t new to the country. Some regional councils already have similar systems, so we\u2019re just trying to take best practice and push it out to the rest of the country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the issue about intensive winter grazing, we know that in the parts of the country that are reliant on supplementary crops, or fodder crops grown in winter, if that\u2019s done in the wrong way\u2014and it has been at times in New Zealand\u2014then that creates a lot of sediment. We\u2019ve all seen the pictures of cows just about up to their udders in mud in a way that\u2019s not good for animal welfare, and it certainly can spoil adjacent rivers all the way down to the estuaries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo, again, we developed a standard. The standard was said to be impractical, so we pulled the plug on that and pushed it out another year. We worked with industry groups to develop an alternative winter-grazing module, which we\u2019ve landed, and that\u2019s intended to be in place by the end of this year. For those people who don\u2019t meet the terms of that intensive winter-grazing module, they can still apply to the council and say, \u201CHey, I can\u2019t do it that way, but I can do it this way, and that\u2019s fair enough. Can I have a consent for it?\u201D, and there are some who say that that\u2019s inappropriate and that you have to get a resource consent outside of the intensive winter-grazing module. That, at the moment, is the law as it currently applies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve had some representations, as it happens, just today from Federated Farmers, saying that we should look again at whether we need to just delay that implementation to enable full farm plans to come in. I\u2019m not yet convinced that that is necessary, but I will consider it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022628af3d72d994755b8b22e2ad6cb1e51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022628af3d72d994755b8b22e2ad6cb1e51\u0022\u003ERACHEL BROOKING (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. And may I take this opportunity to congratulate you for being elevated to that position. I have some small questions on Jobs for Nature; it\u2019s something that we hear a lot about in Environment Committee in both annual review and Estimates, and the Ministers from the Ministry for the Environment. I was wondering if the Minister could give some examples of where Jobs for Nature is doing what\u2019s on the tin, where it\u2019s working for nature, and how this will continue to deliver for New Zealand\u2019s environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022240487fefb8d46c4bf0b8c6f8ccfe9b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022240487fefb8d46c4bf0b8c6f8ccfe9b8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks for that question. You know, when we responded to COVID and things were pretty dire, particularly in some of the economies reliant on tourism, we decided that part of the stimulus and the support that we would have to keep people in employment would be through Jobs for Nature, which was a term we used to cover a range of projects that were divided between the Ministry for the Environment, the Department of Conservation (DOC), Land Information New Zealand, and the Ministry for Primary Industries. It\u2019s been remarkably successful, indeed. Recently, when Kevin Hague retired from Forest and Bird\u2014a former member of this House\u2014he said that it was the most influential, practical on the ground project that he\u2019d seen in his working life, essentially. He was very complimentary about it, and I do have some stats here as to what\u2019s been done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThere have been plants planted. There\u2019s this sort of riparian planting and the like; there is an estimated 14.7 million that are going to be planted, of which 4.3 million have been. Wilding conifer areas controlled\u2014that was a bit easier to get racing earlier, because there were already wilding pine control programmes in the country and we just had to ramp them up rather than do something new. There is a projected 2.5 million hectares controlled, of which about half have been done\u20141.25 million. Other pest control across 670,000 hectares\u2014330,000 has been done. Wallaby control; we\u2019ve got a problem with wallabies spreading in the South Island, particularly\u2014681,000 hectares were predicted to be done and we\u2019ve done 522,000 roughly so far. These were as of the end of March; more will have been done since. In other animal pest control\u2014this is primarily DOC work\u20142.6 million hectares predicted, 1.6 million so far done. So far, as of the end of March, there have been 3.5 million hours worked. There have been 8,000 people employed\u2014\u201Cemployment starts\u201D, we call it. People currently employed at the end of March was 3,315 out of lifetime fulltime-equivalent roles of over 8,000 people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe other thing that this has done\u2014it\u2019s enabled a lot of communities to come together and agree as communities that they want to continue on with things like catchment management groups, which are also being funded. Coordinators are being funded by central government. Groups of farmers and interested locals are getting together and geeing each other along and encouraging each other along so that they can make improvements. So this project is making a big difference but perhaps its greatest influence long term will be bringing communities together to do even better in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u00222b3326a1be774543a9fb3af2b6ee0e3e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b3326a1be774543a9fb3af2b6ee0e3e\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019d like to go back to Lake Onslow\u2014the New Zealand Battery Project\u2014which the Minister brought up before. I\u2019ve been, and I\u2019m sure the Minister has been there\u2014probably several times, I\u2019d imagine. I\u2019ve certainly been there; it\u2019s a beautiful place. I would like to know if he\u2019s satisfied about whether that project will not damage, should it go ahead\u2014and I think if the Government changes it won\u2019t, but that its environmental impacts don\u2019t outweigh the viability of the project. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EThe last that I heard, the feasibility work or the investigations that are going on there still don\u2019t have one of the consents. It\u2019s around lizards, and they\u2019re going to be affected by that investigation work. I understand they have to put in lizard fences. The mind boggles when you think about a lizard fence, but is the Minister aware of that? And is the Minister satisfied that the environmental effects of the construction of that dam, should it go ahead, and the lake and how much bigger it will be, that those environmental effects are worth the project?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also like to know that\u2014unfortunately, the Cabinet paper that\u2019s been released doesn\u2019t identify where, if the water take is below the Roxburgh Dam, it will require another pond. That\u2019s clearly going to have to be built somewhere on probably highly productive farmland. Is that why that was redacted, so that people wouldn\u2019t know where they were going\u2014whose property was going to be up for the requiring authority to take that off those people? So I really look forward to the Minister\u2019s answers. I know he\u2019s looking forward to giving them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd9f2e74d5584529b3d77a81fb7c7a96\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd9f2e74d5584529b3d77a81fb7c7a96\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I have limited ministerial responsibility in this, in that that feasibility study is being done under the auspices of the Minister of energy, although I am aware of the local environmental issues, and I\u2019m happy to talk a little about those. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EOf course, the underlying thesis is that New Zealand, although we\u2019ve got one of the best electricity systems in the world, as another member has already observed, in a dry year, we\u2019ve got a reliance on Huntly and coal, and as we have more renewables, we become more vulnerable to renewable intermittency and dry-year risk. So there are ways that that has to be ameliorated, and one of the ways that is being considered is whether we increase our hydro reserves by building a giant battery, effectively, in Lake Onslow, by raising the level of that. It is actually already artificially raised a bit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe environmental damage that would be caused by that\u2014and I would observe that any form of electricity generation carries with it some environmental damage, whether it\u2019s the visual effect of a wind farm or, you know, the serious effect of changing a running river or climate-changing emissions from coal power. You can see that there are no easy choices here. The local environmental effects there would include a scroll plain that leads into Lake Onslow, which would be a loss. It would be contrasted with the scroll plain in the Upper Taieri, which is a much more significant feature. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of lizard reserves, I can inform the member that I\u2019ve volunteered at the Aldinga lizard reserve close by, near Earnscleugh, which is predator-proof fenced, and we actually have the return of giant Otago skinks and other lizards which are protected in that reserve in a way that they didn\u2019t used to be. So these things are possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u002269f0b397fe674d858c4012bdcbc5d6cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269f0b397fe674d858c4012bdcbc5d6cf\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. So going back to the oceans, total funding allocated for fisheries, as part of Vote Agriculture, Biosecurity, Fisheries and Food Safety, in this financial year is $82.6 million\u2014that\u2019s 14 percent and $13 million less than what was allocated last year. The Minister told the Primary Production Committee that the National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research Ltd\u2019s deep-water research vessel the Tangaroa, which provides a platform for research on fish stocks, is doing less than a third of the number of days at sea. It\u2019s been a reduction from 200 days to 60 days annually. The Minister said that the fishing industry was not particularly keen on increasing the frequency due to the cost recovery involved. So does the Minister accept that there\u2019s a risk of the public seeing him and the Labour Government as being unduly influenced by the fishing industry when it relies on their reactions to determine how many days the Tangaroa goes to sea, and when the Government has failed to increase the funding for fisheries science, which is a basis of doing the ecosystem-based management which the Government says it\u2019s interested in?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6376f306ea54e5b8e68506bb08a1e46\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6376f306ea54e5b8e68506bb08a1e46\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. A couple of quick questions. The Minister hinted that or confirmed that there would be no fifty-fifty co-governance arrangements in his new resource management reform package, but that there would be iwi involvement in the planning committee. So I wondered whether he could just expand on the nature of that, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESecond question is: what progress has been made to the long-promised standardisation of kerbside recycling nationwide, and why is it taking so long?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThirdly, what\u2019s happened to his plans to set up a container deposit or return scheme? If he is intending to proceed with that in the 15 months or so that his Government still has in office, is he committed to the 20c per container price setting?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b48810d11204a00b4c75bdfc656804a\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00229e506493e86f4dc98d143222594edb8c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e506493e86f4dc98d143222594edb8c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I call the Hon David Parker\u2014given there\u2019s a large number of questions there\u2014and we\u2019ll have time to come back to you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022e592c63104bc4df18a60753b4e97830e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e592c63104bc4df18a60753b4e97830e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll try and whip through them reasonably quickly. In respect of funding for the Ministry of Fisheries, there\u2019s no change to the funding for core services at the Ministry of Fisheries, including research. There is a significant impost on the fishing industry in the next few years coming from cameras on boats, although there is a taxpayer subsidy for it that is still an additional cost to the industry. So more environmental services, if you like, are being cost recovered from the industry in respect of that, though I do accept the point made that the number of days that Tangaroa is sent to sea has decreased over the decades. I think some of that is explicable from the fact that, at the start, they were gathering completely new science. Now they\u2019re updating existing datasets, and they probably don\u2019t need as much time at sea to do that. There may also be some other technological advances in modelling that enable them to have less time at sea. But, none the less, I accept that is an issue that we need to keep an eye on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the make-up of the joint planning committees, I won\u2019t go into that in detail but I would refer the member to a speech that I gave to the local government conference where I laid that out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of kerbside recycling, the consultation on the standardisation of kerbside recycling has concluded. I\u2019m not sure of the date offhand, but I can get back to the member informally at the end of this, after I find it out, but it\u2019s this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of container deposits, no final decision has been made as to what the level would be. Although, I would observe that the rate of recovery of recycled containers is substantially lower at a 10c deposit compared with a 20c deposit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0ac0ba9301744f4bd91805b32dc2ae9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0ac0ba9301744f4bd91805b32dc2ae9\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Just coming back to recycling, Minister, currently glass and aluminium have very high recovery rates. It appears that it\u2019s the plastics that have little value and are therefore the problem to solve with recycling. We\u2019ve heard from packaging industry representatives and brewers that the container deposit scheme could add $6 to $8 on to a box of beer\u2014$6 to $8 in the middle of a cost of living crisis at 20c a can; $6 to $8 to those of us who like a beer. Yet the packaging industry have said they would be prepared to set up their own scheme at no cost to the taxpayer and they believe that they can get recycling rates up to something that the Ministry for the Environment believes that the Government could with its own scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo would the Minister give assurances that any container deposit scheme will, firstly, not impose a cost on business? The scheme, as currently devised, proposes to locate container deposit banks in supermarket car parks and to force supermarkets to accommodate these things\u2014busy supermarket car parks in urban environments, which are already under pressure, already struggling with supply chain issues, health and safety issues in car parks. So would the Minister give an assurance that a container deposit scheme won\u2019t add any extra cost on to that box of beer for those of us who like a beer and like to buy it in bulk; it won\u2019t add any cost to households; and certainly won\u2019t add any administrative costs to taxpayers who, unfortunately, under this Minister\u2019s Government, appeared to be carrying the can for a whole lot of bad policy, Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc2434cb1d034f17834ebeb78b044fd3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc2434cb1d034f17834ebeb78b044fd3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Look, I won\u2019t try to compete in the recycling puns. I can absolutely assure the member that his beer\u2019s not going to go up by $6 to $8 a pack of beer. The Queensland Productivity Commission recently did a report on the container deposit scheme that\u2019s been introduced in Queensland. Virtually everywhere in Australia now has one, a lot of countries in Europe have them and, indeed, New Zealand used to have them for beer and fizzy drinks and we think it would be progress if we went back to that. I would refer the member to that productivity commission study. I won\u2019t quote the figure because I think I might get it wrong but the cost per beverage container has turned out to be much lower than was even modelled and certainly was much, much, much lower than the apocryphal stories that were told by critics of the scheme over there before it was introduced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the supermarket issue, I do find the criticism ironic, really, given that most of the waste streams that we\u2019re trying to deal with actually come out of supermarkets in the first place. So I don\u2019t have too much of a problem making it convenient for people to return their containers when they\u2019re going to the supermarket. When they\u2019ve got them in their boot, they can take them and put them into a reverse vending machine in large supermarkets. It won\u2019t happen for every supermarket but we know from overseas experience that the success of these schemes depends, in part, on the convenience of the return venues that are accessible to people who want to return their containers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022581ad54d568b43db8ef465dd568e2a23\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022581ad54d568b43db8ef465dd568e2a23\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just want to come back to Jobs for Nature and particularly focus my last question on the funding. The $1 billion or more that was invested in the Jobs for Nature programme was, of course, part of the Government\u2019s COVID stimulation package to pump money into the economy. Some of the projects have been very worthwhile\u2014there\u2019s no denying that\u2014but some have been less effective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister is: what is going to happen to the effective projects that will require ongoing funding when the money runs out? I\u2019m particularly concerned about the conifer and wilding pine eradication programmes that require ongoing treatment to ensure that seed viability over sometimes a decade or more doesn\u2019t just wipe out the good work that has been done to date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022236e723e76bc4996b1b9871c65581b32\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022236e723e76bc4996b1b9871c65581b32\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for that question. I agree that there\u2019s not much point funding things that rely upon continued effort to be sustained, if you can\u2019t rely on the continued effort. I sat on the panel of Ministers that approved projects and that was one of the things that we quizzed officials on, in respect of projects. That\u2019s obviously true of some of the Department of Conservation predator control work in respect of native forests. They assured us that the projects that we were funding were likely to be enduring.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of wilding pine control, the member will be aware that there\u2019s been some decades of work done there already. We\u2019ve managed to give it a gee along, but it won\u2019t be finished in the time that Jobs for Nature finishes. There is some good news about that, in that there are new control techniques including some selective poisons\u2014herbicides that didn\u2019t used to be available\u2014which meant that there was a much more expensive form of wilding pine control involving actually physically cutting down the tree. But now sprays are able to substitute that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI expect, in the future, there will be new technologies including, probably in our lifetimes\u2014touch wood\u2014the use of drones and other things to particularly target individual, or groups of, trees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022796aa388cba84ecbb7fe75d5413c67de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022796aa388cba84ecbb7fe75d5413c67de\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the committee report progress presently, and move to consider the Overseas Investment (Forestry) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EProgress to be reported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227babcb2048e64b21bf7f7ea5773cd0f4\u0022\u003EOverseas Investment (Forestry) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e989da7e56f940c1a3d17e42f6511aed\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224dc2441a0c764e3a90cf462bd65b57e0\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Part 2 (consent and conditions regime)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee0e71de724f46798129d6f427c454fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee0e71de724f46798129d6f427c454fe\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to the Overseas Investment (Forestry) Amendment Bill. I\u2019ll remind members that they\u2019re able to participate remotely. If you\u2019re on Zoom and want to take a call, please type \u201Ccall\u201D into the chat. You should also use the chat if you want to raise a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EIf we receive any tabled amendments, I will advise members so that they can refresh the House Papers page to see the new amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EFinally, it would be helpful of members to ask multiple questions\u2014if they have them\u2014of the member in charge during their call. Members, we now come to Part 1. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf992ee4d395491ea1beb04d390083b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf992ee4d395491ea1beb04d390083b7\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. We\u2019re in the exciting stage of being able to ask Minister Parker some questions. I think the first thing is, when the original test was changed by the Rt Hon Winston Peters, there was already at that stage a great deal of opposition concerning those provisions, because many members\u2014and I was one of them\u2014expressed concern that it would lead to rapid escalation. At the time, the element of New Zealand production forest owned by overseas entities was estimated at 72 percent. I do note that the\u2014I think it\u2019s the Overseas Investment Office (OIO) recalculated the figure and slightly downgraded it. But, whatever the case, it was by far\u2014even at the point that the Rt Hon Winston Peters, supported of course by the Labour Government, chose to increase it, there was substantial foreign ownership.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo here we are. Winston Peters left\u2014I\u2019ll just pause for a moment on that\u2014and now we\u2019ve got this absolute change of heart by the Minister and the Labour Party. I\u2019d just like the Minister to explain why we arrived to this point, when already the concerns that we were expressing\u2014that a number of people across this House were expressing, at the time it was introduced\u2014why we\u2019ve had this come-to-Jesus moment, if I can use that expression.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002244eebd5d74e24021b2357b4ed69a5e7b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244eebd5d74e24021b2357b4ed69a5e7b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chairman. Because we couldn\u2019t rely upon the votes of the National Party to pass the legislation last term that we needed to close a gaping loophole in the overseas investment screening arrangements for forestry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe situation was that under the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP), the class of investments that can be screened under overseas investment regimes closed from the date of inception of that agreement. So unless there was a screening regime for a class of assets in place by that date, the Government of New Zealand could not thereafter introduce it unless they withdrew from CPTPP and other agreements that relied upon the most favoured nation clause relating to investment protocols, which sucked the CPTPP restriction on new classes of screening into earlier agreements, including the China free-trade agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo the Government decided, and I was responsible for both the investment side of it and the trade side of it\u2014we realised that we needed to move quickly, after the date of signature but before the agreement came into effect, to include within our screening regime classes of investment that we might want to screen in the future. Now, once a class of investment is within the screening regime, the rules as to how it is screened can be toughened or loosened under those agreements, but you can\u2019t have a new area of screening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe area of deficiency in forestry related to the lack of screening under the Act for forest registration rights. If you want to invest in forestry, you can either buy a freehold interest, a leasehold interest, or a forest registration right. A forest registration right can last for multiple rotations; it can last for a hundred years. It\u2019s a bit like a very long-term lease. And unless that was within the screening regime for forestry, the country didn\u2019t have an effective screening regime for forestry because there was an avoidance mechanism through forest registration rights. We also had evidence that that avoidance route through forest registration rights was increasingly being used by overseas investors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ETherefore, to have a cogent screening regime, we needed to include forest registration rights. We did that. The National Party didn\u2019t favour that legislation and we were reliant on votes from the New Zealand First Party to get that, and the New Zealand First Party\u2014and there was some good reasons for this. They didn\u2019t want to disrupt overseas investment into our forestry sector, because they wanted more trees planted for climate and environmental reasons as well as for the interests of that industry. Therefore, they said, \u201CWell, we will agree to forest registration rights being included in the Overseas Investment Act, but we want what the Hon Shane Jones called the primrose path.\u201D, which was a very low regulatory route applied to forestry relative to other sectors. In order to pass the legislation, in order to have a cogent overseas investment regime, we agreed with that request, and, as a consequence, we got to where we got to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn the period since, partly because the economics of forestry have improved, there has been an increase to the risks caused to rural communities of planting out mid-quality land in forests, in a way that is worrying some of those communities. And we think part of the answer lies in slightly toughening\u2014not toughening to the extent that some people want, but slightly toughening\u2014the rules that apply to overseas investment in forestry, whether it\u2019s freehold, leasehold, or forest registration right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022243e27a7fff843a399ea03bea2311aa6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022243e27a7fff843a399ea03bea2311aa6\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d like to acknowledge the Minister for such a fulsome answer. But to be honest, my sense of history is perhaps just a little bit different in the sense that my recollection\u2014and I was on the committee at the time, so I remember going through it quite explicitly. So at the time that the original change, which allowed up to 1,000 hectares to be acquired by a foreign owner to come in here with very loose requirements for approval\u2014basically, you could buy up to 1,000 hectares\u2014was, from my recollection, actually a New Zealand First initiative supported by Government. But if you want to say it was Labour supported by New Zealand First, it\u2019s fine. But at the time that that was introduced, the members of the committee in Opposition parties were saying that they were concerned about the ability of foreigners to come and buy, with a huge amount of ease, a relative ease to come and buy swathes of land. That\u2019s not to say that we weren\u2019t interested in supporting the forestry industry; we were. But we were all very concerned. The Opposition parties were all very concerned about the ease of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo here we are. Just to go back to my original question, that was the result of arguments put up by you\u2014and I\u2019m talking to Mr Parker here\u2014and New Zealand First as to why we should do that, right? Now here we are, a few years later, and, hey presto, we look like we\u2019re going back almost to where we were before, which is a much more regulatory approach. What are the drivers, and why didn\u2019t you listen to people at the time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022826fd776a6ff48328d64c5a8e9ec216e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022826fd776a6ff48328d64c5a8e9ec216e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Because the National Party refused to back bringing in forest registration rights into the screening regime. That\u2019s the reason.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb2523c51092480c9abeda73cced4b0e\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: So you thought it was a good idea to do 1,000 hectares?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfeb224da4b0405baa6499cf51f115f8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if we hadn\u2019t done that, New Zealand would for ever have an ineffective screening regime. The member has just said he thinks there should be some restrictions on overseas investment into forestry and that there should be a consent regime around it. There would have been no effective consent regime because you could get around buying freehold and leasehold interest by buying a very long-term forest registration right. And it was happening and that was explained by me to the House at the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea94df47e60942a99dea8975ccf63f69\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea94df47e60942a99dea8975ccf63f69\u0022\u003EDAMIEN SMITH (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. This is an industry where it\u2019s great to see investors taking a 30-year view in New Zealand. I wish this could happen in all major projects, apart from forestry, in this country, because it would\u2014the classic example of this forestry programme is that, if you take a 30-year view, you\u2019re not making money until later on down the line but you\u2019re prepared to make the investment. I think there\u2019s a model in here which is very effective for the rest of the country. As you know, we\u2019re very pro foreign direct investment, and we want to see more of it in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EI mean, the number of players in this sector\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee098f7eb9cb4e9ab7a9263ba0e40e2e\u0022\u003EAnna Lorck\u003C/span\u003E: Sell off New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289b3e2dc699d409c8e88f99618e1eb0c\u0022\u003EDAMIEN SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m getting it as well\u2014which are very limited; might be 20 or 30. They\u2019re the ones taking the risk. We feel comfortable with this test, as it\u2019s been reported in the bill. But one of the things that does make me nervous, and I\u2019d like to ask the Minister a question, is: they were all asking that the regulator should be required to produce clear guidance about the factors they\u2019ll have to have regard to and the way these will apply those factors when assessing an application under the \u201Cbenefit to the New Zealand\u201D test. To me, giving them that clarity was very important, and I would like to ask the Minister why that specific requirement wasn\u2019t added to the primary legislation, even though the Finance and Expenditure Committee decided that wasn\u2019t necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00226877b9b6fac44907a9739c14ec1be7fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226877b9b6fac44907a9739c14ec1be7fe\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Can I first agree with the member that the balance test here is appropriate, that it\u2019s not as tough as the test that applies for farmland. Before I respond to his particular question, I would say that, for me, and for the Labour Party, there is something special about land. In a world where there are some\u2014you know, there\u2019s a lot of places overseas who\u2019ve got more problems than we\u2019ve got. We\u2019re not a perfect country; we\u2019re a pretty good country, and we\u2019re a safe place to invest, and we\u2019re a safe place to live. We\u2019ve got to be careful, in my opinion, that with those attributes we don\u2019t allow the opportunities of New Zealanders to be distorted by the interests of overseas people when it comes to land assets. I remember reading an article by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in The Telegraph. He\u2019s a commentator on economic issues that I follow. He\u2019s a right-wing commentator, but I agree with quite a few of the things he says, and he says there is something special about land that is intrinsic to your sense of countryhood and self. We must be careful that we don\u2019t separate ourselves from one of those rights of being a local Kiwi to actually have some preference in respect of land assets relative to overseas investors. That\u2019s what drives this side of the House in respect of some of the restrictions that we\u2019ve got on overseas investment, be it in residential land, farmland, or forestry land. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThat said, we don\u2019t think, in general terms, there\u2019s something quite so special about forestry. It\u2019s a bit different from the, you know, the farmland that\u2019s adjacent to a beautiful lake that is effectively just such a special place to be able to live in and own and control. So we think that whilst there should be controls on overseas investment in forestry, they don\u2019t need to be quite as strict as they need to be in respect of farmland. That\u2019s why we think the balance is struck between facilitating investment on the one hand and managing the risks on the other hand by applying the general \u201Cbenefit to New Zealand\u201D test for forestry conversions. We\u2019re not applying that to on-sale of existing farms to another overseas buyer. One of the things that is important to an overseas owner is to be able to change the ownership of that, either through changes in shareholding in their own entity or by selling to somebody else. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of whether there should have been more particularity as to some of the factors that are going to be taken into account by the Overseas Investment Office when they apply that criteria, we did hear the suggestion from some members that there should be more detail in the Act. We thought that would be too rigid, and we thought that that guidance should be provided outside of the Act rather than codified within it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u0022f60b2255c42e4224be5a95689aa9a5fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f60b2255c42e4224be5a95689aa9a5fe\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m interested in the Minister\u2019s comment that there is something special about land, and previously he\u2019s also said that it\u2019s a privilege to be an overseas investor and own land in Aotearoa. There\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 219 in my name, which does seek to change the test for land being bought by an overseas investor for forestry to the farmland test, where there is attention to the participation and oversight by New Zealanders and the economic benefit that would be provided by that overseas applicant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EMr McKelvie, in the second reading, highlighted that there wasn\u2019t a lot of difference between a walnut tree, I think he referred to, and a pine tree. Similarly, the Green Party can\u2019t see any difference between a pine tree and a kiwifruit vine. Now if the overseas investor is wanting to buy farmland to plant kiwifruit, they have to go through the farmland test, but not if they want to plant vines. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe Climate Change Commission has highlighted that an overemphasis on afforestation undermines, potentially, the need to reduce emissions to mitigate climate change. Given that regardless of whether you\u2019re planting the trees for permanent carbon forestry or for production forestry, you can be part of the emissions trading scheme and claim those carbon units, what is the problem with buying farmland for forestry on an even playing field with buying farmland for farming for kiwifruit vines, for horticulture, or for whatever, given that it is land and it is a privilege for overseas investors to buy land? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWe heard from Treasury that the difficulty was showing the economic return, because the trees wouldn\u2019t be harvested for some decades, but that seems a rather superficial reason not to have a level playing field for whatever purpose farmland is being bought for. So could the Minister expand on why we can\u2019t go back to what it was pre-2018 and New Zealand First\u2019s involvement, and having the farmland test apply for land being bought for forestry? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002275383b78d10e482586786cd955a6311e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275383b78d10e482586786cd955a6311e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Well, the first thing I would say is that we have tightened rules around investment in farmland for a number of reasons. Some of those I\u2019ve already outlined about how we don\u2019t want New Zealanders outbid, but often by a very small amount, by an overseas investor for the same piece of land. We tightened that by, in part, changing the letter of direction that had been given by the prior Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EMembers may recall the controversy around Crafar Farms some years ago. There were New Zealand purchasers who were outbid by a small amount by an overseas group that had purchased those farms, and it caused a furore in the country because it was one of the largest groups of farms in New Zealand. The then Government said that it was opposed. It introduced yet another condition into the Overseas Investment Act regulations, and then sent a letter around the back door to the Overseas Investment Office that said, \u201COh, by the way, look favourably on applications to buy farms up to 10 times the size of the average unit of that type of farm\u2014i.e., up to nine dairy farms\u2014and then turn down the 10th one.\u201D, and we didn\u2019t like that. So we took away that letter of direction, and then we codified into the Act the regulations so that for these things, if a future Government wants to loosen up on them, they\u2019re going to have to convince Parliament that they should be loosened up, rather than do it through executive action, which we thought was wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo if you wanted to go back to the prior status quo, you sort of can\u2019t, really, because the situation in respect of farmland is now tougher than it was before all those changes were made, and we don\u2019t think overseas investment in forestry ought to be that tough, even though we think it ought to be a bit more rigorous than it currently is. The reason why we think the general \u201Cbenefit to New Zealand\u201D test is appropriate is that, firstly, the more stringent farmland benefit test would discourage the productive investment that we need in the production of forestry sector. Now, members might say that they wish that wasn\u2019t the case, but, as Andrew Bayly observed earlier, about 70 percent, or thereabouts\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b571e6c655641ef929a5b4265bc6865\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: 72.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc42bc1df87c41a3bc57ceb9a07f2bab\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: \u201472 percent\u2014thank you\u2014of our forests are foreign-owned and they are reliant on foreign capital, so we didn\u2019t really want to put at risk that sector by closing that route down too strictly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESecondly, the risk to productive land can be managed under the general \u201Cbenefit to New Zealand\u201D test because the investor must demonstrate benefits that are in proportion to the sensitivity of the land. So proportionality in this sense means that overseas investment in our most sensitive land must demonstrate a higher degree of benefit for the land than land that is not so sensitive. Now, that sensitivity goes partly to economic productivity. We don\u2019t want lots of our high-class lands planted out in forests, I don\u2019t think, as a country, and there are a lot of communities concerned that you can go too far in that regard. So that now is relevant for the Overseas Investment Office as to whether this is inappropriate land to be planted out in production forestry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIt could also consider whether it is land of high conservation value, because even if it was unproductive land, sometimes there are conservation values which mean that it shouldn\u2019t be planted out in pine forests, for example. Even though there is not an environmental test within the environmental legislation, it\u2019s not within the Overseas Investment Act\u2014it\u2019s not the Resource Management Act, and it shouldn\u2019t pretend to be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EFinally, the farmland benefit test captures a broad range of land, including that which is unproductive or unsuitable for agriculture or horticulture, and in those cases it could be disproportionate to impose a burden of the farmland test on investments in that case. So we think that this test is right for those reasons, and, accordingly, the member\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper that seeks us to go further and apply the farmland test in respect of forestry investments won\u2019t be supported by the Labour Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec51a82b03c14302b567149565bd5e0f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec51a82b03c14302b567149565bd5e0f\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Now, look, I just want to touch on some of the Minister\u2019s earlier comments. Initially I thought it was quite interesting, his recollection of how this bill came to be in the state it has been over the last few years, basically saying that the Labour Party were making the calls on it, they were driving this, and they had New Zealand First\u2019s permission to say so. You know, what we saw was quite clearly that New Zealand First were driving this, and the Minister can say, well, he didn\u2019t have the National Party\u2019s support around the screening regime for forestry. I\u2019d be interested on his views around whether that\u2019s a necessary requirement for any other land-use purposes. He was rushing to get it through the Trans-Pacific Partnership\u2014or with the additional letters added under that Government. And I wonder whether that was a consideration for him outside of the forestry\u2014whether there were any other issues around horticulture, for example, or agriculture, or even aquaculture\u2014on land use as well that needed to be considered under that, and whether they are now at risk because of the Comprehensive and Progressive Trans-Pacific Partnership agreement being in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EAlso, I\u2019d be very keen to have an understanding from him on the adverse effects, if any, from his perspective over the last few years that the legislation has been in its current state, on those rural communities, in particular, where we have seen a significant area of land converted to forestry, fast-tracked through the OIA process under the special forestry test, and outcompeting other New Zealand potential purchasers. The Minister raised the example of Crafar Farms, a bit over a decade ago, I think it was, at that stage. But what we\u2019ve seen in communities around New Zealand, as a result of the legislation as it currently sits, is that sheep and beef farmers have been outbid by overseas investors wanting to put quite productive land into forestry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EI was interested by the proposal put forward by the Green Party, the Hon Eugenie Sage in Supplementary Order Paper 219, looking to try and level up that playing field again, because my concern is that any time the Government is getting involved and meddling in a market, you\u2019re seeing perverse outcomes. And that\u2019s exactly what\u2019s happened here. Because of New Zealand First and their influence over the Labour Party, and Labour wanting to have the Government benches, we saw a perverse outcome that significantly skewed the market and resulted in a massive increase\u2014tens and tens of thousands of hectares\u2014of productive sheep and beef country going into forestry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ENow, in my view, forestry should be able to compete in its own right, if it\u2019s the most economic land use. If it has the best environmental practices on a particular area of land, then so be it; that should be justification enough without having to have special exemptions to outcompete in the market, and that\u2019s where we\u2019ve got to under this. So I\u2019d be very interested to know what adverse outcomes there were from it, because I\u2019m sure they must have done some analysis of that when considering how far to wind back those rules put in place, because the Minister touched on his view that winding it back to the level of agriculture was too far. I\u2019m surprised by that because, actually, we still have obviously more onerous requirements for any overseas investors wanting to invest in agricultural land. That was part of the submission from Federated Farmers as well, noting that farmland to forestry, going through the general benefit, as opposed to farmland to farmland sales still having to go through the more stringent test for farming, where the benefits have to be substantial and more than what a New Zealand owner could do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EThe example the Minister used around potentially non-productive land being put into forestry\u2014their not being able to show that demonstrated additional value\u2014I don\u2019t accept because, ultimately, if the land is so unproductive that it can\u2019t even generate a viable outcome or economic contribution from sheep and beef, or sheep, then surely having forestry on there will significantly increase that. So I think bringing it back would be a more appropriate consideration. Those are my initial questions, and I\u2019ve got plenty more for him soon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022b425e61b26dd4fe7a411b8e8ace8458d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b425e61b26dd4fe7a411b8e8ace8458d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I think some of the concerns of rural communities about forests being planted in the wrong place or the quantity of forests being too great\u2014they\u2019re heartfelt. In some areas, they are borne out by the statistics; in some areas, they\u2019re actually not. Overall, the number of hectares of additional forests that have been planted in the last few years is, last time I checked, still less than the deforestation in the prior decade. So I think we have to be a bit careful not to be too panic-stricken about the issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI\u2019m a strong believer in the efficiency of markets, and I\u2019m also a strong believer of internalising into economic transactions within those markets environmental externalities, and I\u2019ve spent a fair bit of my life trying to achieve those ends. Sometimes it seems futile in the imperfections that we end up with in New Zealand, given compromises that are made either on the way through or by subsequent Governments that undo them. But one of the drivers of forestry for people that own land\u2014and they\u2019re not all overseas owners; they\u2019re New Zealand owners, often\u2014is that they\u2019re actually doing it for the money, because they can make more money out of forestry than they can alternative land uses. Well, that\u2019s how markets are meant to operate, including, particularly, the internalisation of environmental externalities that sometimes leads to that outcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENow, that said, I also recognise that economics are not the be all and end all in all transactions, including as to land use. I could make more money from my residential section if I could put up, in my residential area, a hundred-storey hotel, but I\u2019m not allowed to because there are non-economic factors that are relevant to the planning of the use of my residential land. I also accept that, in rural areas, there are appropriate planning rules that are more than economic and go to socio-economic outcomes. If local communities don\u2019t want their mid-grade land planted out in numbers of forests, I think they should have a planning function that enables them to do that, but that\u2019s outside the terms of the Overseas Investment Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00223182e4dd3d464acfa515d27e74134b03\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223182e4dd3d464acfa515d27e74134b03\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I\u2019m going to return to a question, but I just want to acknowledge a couple of people. The first one is the Hon Stuart Nash, who I know has deep roots into the forestry sector\u2014very deep roots. Of course, I was watching an interchange just before, with him and the member for Tukituki, Anna Lorck. What just crossed my mind is on one side we\u2019ve got a Minister who\u2019s absolutely an advocate for making sure all our farmland goes into forests\u2014I know he\u2019s a very strong advocate\u2014and, of course, I was thinking about Anna Lorck\u2019s electorate and thinking, \u201CWell, you\u2019ve got a whole lot of farmland going into forestry, actually\u2014very productive land.\u201D I was just wondering how that interplay was going, that interchange. So I\u2019m hoping the Minister, the Hon Stuart Nash, might take the opportunity to say whether in fact he supports this cutting back, this scaling back of forestry investments, because I know he is very keen that there\u2019s an opportunity for overseas investors to come in and buy lots of land with little controls.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo I just want to go back, the last time\u2014because this is the third time I\u2019ve asked the question. As I understand the logic for this come-to-Jesus moment, and I hope that expression\u2019s OK, but if I understand the logic of what the Minister said earlier, he said that, and he quoted National\u2014but let\u2019s just say that because there was no framework for a forestry registration scheme, the only option was to go from that point to a situation in 2018, and Winston Peters was somehow involved in it, which is described even by your officials, Minister, as being a very, very permissive arrangement for allowing foreigners to come in and buy New Zealand farmland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo my question is: here we are, we\u2019re going backwards; why did you think it was appropriate in 2018, whether it was your bill or Winston Peters\u2019 bill or whoever\u2014but, you know, the Government of the day, of which you were a member\u2014to have such a \u201Cpermissive environment\u201D and now you think it\u2019s appropriate, only 4\u00BD years later, that it\u2019s so desperate we have to scale it back?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u00221612d691c16e4528b73fd5f3026dcffc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221612d691c16e4528b73fd5f3026dcffc\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH (Minister of Forestry):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I actually need to respond to that member\u2019s comments. I am the Minister of Forestry and I am incredibly passionate about forestry, and I believe the right tree in the right place has a huge ability to influence not only our economic but our social and, of course, our decarbonisation aspirations. My vision is that in a hundred years\u2019 time we will have a million hectares of land that is currently bare in indigenous forest. Because the thing about land use is that land use change has not kept up with the economics of farming.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EThe thing that happened in the mid-1980s, as we know, pre the loss of all the subsidies, is farmers were paid on how much land they cleared and therefore how much stock they carried. Of course, when that changed, there was a whole lot of land that became uneconomic from a farming perspective but what happened to that land is it wasn\u2019t planted out. So the Forest Service has actually identified about 1.2 million hectares of land that is only suitable for the permanent forest category. And by the \u201Cpermanent forest category\u201D I mean land that will probably never be harvested either from an economic perspective\u2014and by that it\u2019s too far from a port or not close to a processing facility or too expensive to harvest\u2014or it won\u2019t be harvested from a health and safety perspective because, again, the ability to harvest this in a way that meets the expectations of health and safety in the 21st century just doesn\u2019t exist, or from a conservation perspective; i.e., harvesting land which is too steep just is unconscionable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003EIf we can get that land planted, then we will mitigate, for example, the 5 million tonnes of silt that goes into Hawke\u2019s Bay every single year, but we are not talking about the permanent forest category here, because this always had to go through the Overseas Investment Act if you were planning primarily for carbon. What we are talking about here is trees that are planting for harvesting. Now, the Forest Service, apart from that 1.2 million hectares that\u2019s been identified for the permanent forest category, has also identified about 1.25 million hectares that is only suitable probably for production forestry because it is very, very marginal for farming. And keep in mind, about 86 percent of all forests in the emissions trading scheme are in classes 6 to 8 land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003ESo we are not taking out huge swathes of productive land. In fact, I got my forestry start dealing with a farmer in the Tukituki who won the Farmer of the Year Award. What he did is he won a whole lot of fertiliser, and that\u2019s why he fertilised his whole farm\u2014it made not much of a difference. So what he did is he took out every part of his farm that didn\u2019t carry at least 3.5 stock units per hectare. And you know what? He didn\u2019t lose one unit of stock whatsoever. He planted that marginal land in trees. And what he did\u2014he was a guy called John Aitken, a very, very innovative farmer, and he was one of the leaders of the farm forestry movement. So what he did is he took out the uneconomic land for farming and he put it into forestry, therefore, diversifying his farm and his sources of income. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003ENow, I absolutely support this. The last thing I want to see is productive farmland planted in forestry. I want to see our farms, our rural landscape, a good mixture of farming, of production forestry, and of carbon farming, and it has always been about the right tree in the right place. So if anyone suggests\u2014and to be fair, this is the first time actually anyone has suggested, certainly to my face anyway\u2014that I want to see swathes of productive farmland planted up, that, Madam Chair and members of this committee, is the last thing I want to see. It\u2019s why I support this to the absolute hilt and I reckon the Minister is doing a fantastic job. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u002215a1f1356c164a0ca61dd1a7dbcc58c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215a1f1356c164a0ca61dd1a7dbcc58c4\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair, for looking past Andrew Bayly\u2014which is a difficult thing to do, in all kinds of ways! My contribution will be brief; I don\u2019t profess the policy background that other learned colleagues on this side of the House\u2014and maybe even some on the other side of the House\u2014would claim in this space. So a reasonably tight question, a narrow question; indeed, one that the Minister in the chair, might be well placed to answer, maybe almost from his legal background, and if he were to wear the hat of Attorney-General he might be equally well placed to answer it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo it goes to the provision in Part 1, whereby clause 4, subsection (3), that the inserted subsection, new\u2014well, I don\u2019t want to get too caught up in cross-referencing. If the Minister is able to identify where it says, \u201CSubsection (1C) does not apply if the relevant Ministers are satisfied\u2014\u201D and then it lists a number of different points of satisfaction that are needed\u2014such that subsection (1C), which already exists in the primary legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EMy question, really, is: what is the satisfaction of the relevant Ministers to be based on? Would it be submissions of applicants? Would it be maybe other parties who are interested in the matter\u2014might have a commercial interest; might have a general, perhaps environmental advocacy interest; might be local to the area and have a geographical interest, therefore? And so I wonder how the Minister would contemplate that relevant Ministers, as defined and as used in the legislation, would come to that decision and feel satisfied that those various points apply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIn particular, I\u2019m interested to know whether the Minister would feel the need to seek independent advice of those various interested parties\u2014so advice that could be regarded as independent, such that they could come to those decisions, and thinking particularly from a point of view protecting against judicial review or otherwise questions of the decision?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo that was my sole question for Part 1, and I thank Madam Chair for the opportunity to ask it and in anticipation to the Minister for answering it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd37cdede0534b07a5b60356fe76243e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd37cdede0534b07a5b60356fe76243e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. The information that the Minister relies upon is essentially the summary of submissions as analysed by, well, the summary of the application, because there\u2019s not a third-party submission process. That\u2019s the summary of the information that is provided by the applicant for the consent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThere are some general provisions relating to forestry land, such as that it is forestry land that, on occasions, are not true of part of the land; there could be, for example, a house and curtilage that is part of the land that is not going to be forested, but the Overseas Investment Office can none the less say that overall this falls within the class of forestry land and should be approved according to that net-benefit test.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u00224fbfc173a393452cb495c3f6de6a9532\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224fbfc173a393452cb495c3f6de6a9532\u0022\u003EWILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u00228b4e7687145c4fe39f346985223d671d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b4e7687145c4fe39f346985223d671d\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you. I just wanted to come back to my earlier question the Minister hadn\u2019t addressed yet either, in relation to his comments around the need to progress this change back in 2018, I believe it was, with haste to ensure that the appropriate changes could be made before the Trans-Pacific Partnership came into being.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225af93eaaafe340419cb59cbb705d749f\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Comprehensive and Progressive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5f9bf5a49c34914997b4a9821f37bc0\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN\u003C/span\u003E: And yes, with the additional letters that the Government chose to add to embellish it somewhat and try and sell it better to the public, having opposed it very vehemently over the previous campaign election, up and down streets across New Zealand. But I digress somewhat. Anyway, the extra letters and suddenly it was all OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m interested in whether or not there are any other land uses that have potentially been impacted in his mind\u2014or could be impacted\u2014by not having been put through the same process that he was very actively keen to put forestry through, and whether that\u2019s something that we need to be addressing under this or potentially in a future iteration as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EThen I just wanted to pick up on the comments from the forestry Minister as he came in with his contribution as well. Because I thought it was quite interesting that he was a strong, fierce lion in support of maintaining property rights for agricultural purposes and yet, four years ago, was nowhere to be seen when New Zealand First were advocating for this particular bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s really important because I\u2019ve heard consistently from a lot of farmers who have been very concerned by the impact that this has had. And the Minister made the comment that we haven\u2019t yet seen a level of afforestation at a level in line with the deforestation that happened over the previous decade.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EI\u2019m interested to know whether he is setting that as a benchmark; that he wants to see that same number of hectares converted back into forestry before he will be satisfied that we might make changes that bring the tests to a comparable level for agricultural land and also for the forestry land as well. I\u2019ll leave it there for now. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8a321b6332143a9bac2bf81624c7c24\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8a321b6332143a9bac2bf81624c7c24\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m sure many members present will join with me in saying that they miss the provincial champion and the billion trees that he promised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI actually agreed with some of the reasoning of New Zealand First at the time. They observed that the forest industry had suffered quite a lot of uncertainty in the prior years, caused in part by some rapid changes to the price of carbon, which at times discouraged and then encouraged deforestation. Because the price of carbon\u2014when it dropped to $2 a tonne\u2014saw lots of people chopping down their forests at a time when they could do it very cheaply, including through purchasing, if they wanted to, Ukrainian hot air units that were admissible at the time into the New Zealand emissions trading scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo New Zealand First were concerned that whilst we introduced forestry registration rights into the screening regime, that we didn\u2019t disrupt the forestry sector, and that\u2019s one of the reasons why. Although they agreed for the green forest registration rights into the scheme, they wanted an easy regulatory path.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EAre there other areas that we see the need to change regulation on? No, we did urgently\u2014one of the reasons we opposed the Trans-Pacific Partnership when the prior Government was promoting it was that they were refusing to move on overseas ownership of New Zealand homes, which, if we hadn\u2019t moved on before the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership came into effect, no future Government would have had the regulatory space to control overseas ownership in New Zealand housing stock, which is something that we fixed at the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0e837297735484ea15c997dc4458e9d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0e837297735484ea15c997dc4458e9d\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m very grateful for the opportunity to talk. I just want to acknowledge the Minister of Forestry and his contribution, because he talked about that utopian vision for land and forest living in harmony, and, obviously, he referred to the Aitken farm where he thought it was fantastic that their farmer had planted up, obviously, steep, unproductive land, left the productive soils, and that actually had a beautiful arrangement which he\u2019s very supportive of. I think everyone in New Zealand probably shares that view. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBut, unfortunately, the 2018 regulations didn\u2019t actually create that. What the 2018 regulations did has actually made it much more permissive for foreigners to come and buy that land. The rules now under this arrangement\u2014up to a thousand hectares. Now, let\u2019s assume this farm, the utopian farm, is still in existence and owned by the Aitken family; they still remember Stuart Nash fondly. Now, what is the test under the new proposed arrangements? So let\u2019s assume that Aitken farm\u2014beautiful trees all grown up now; a foreigner wants to come and buy it, and it\u2019s over a thousand hectares. So what are the new rules? How will the new tests be executed? And the sense is, is there a requirement for a counterfactual? Is there a requirement to set out what the benefits are of converting that utopian farm now into a pine forest? What are the new arrangements? And also, I\u2019d quite like to understand about the capability of the Overseas Investment Office, but I\u2019m going to leave that for my next question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1da5117581b4650829fd1a3e6e9120c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1da5117581b4650829fd1a3e6e9120c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ve actually already addressed that issue on a number of occasions. The member is incorrect that the changes that we made in 2018 made it easier to invest in forestry. It didn\u2019t\u2014it closed a big loophole in respect of forest registration rights that otherwise was an avoidance pathway that made a nonsense of the controls of investment via freehold and leasehold interests. In respect of the test to be applied, the general \u201Cbenefit to New Zealand\u201D test\u2014I\u2019ve explained that in detail as to how that applies and I\u2019m not going to do it again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c66e251e42240ed9af904b01f06a688\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Can you give us an example of the counterfactual?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6ce9608c48743568ec101702fb11787\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: In respect of whether there\u2019s a counterfactual test: no, there isn\u2019t. The test is applied compared to the current state of the land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022 data-id=\u002273eeee73b7b14e2cad9639307a7a78ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273eeee73b7b14e2cad9639307a7a78ea\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE (Labour\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf204e334b7b47e2b7e8ca60ba8e2ff0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf204e334b7b47e2b7e8ca60ba8e2ff0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: I call Tim van de Molen, but I am now looking for new debating points, and I\u2019m getting a sense of some repetition, so let\u2019s hear you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u00223762b569c75c42989a25dc41ba2e54c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223762b569c75c42989a25dc41ba2e54c5\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Absolutely\u2014absolutely. There\u2019s plenty of beautiful farmland around the country so reiterating some of that is bound to happen but I do just want to come to the point the Minister was touching on around\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022593b6ff1d5194f2b844bdf4f93eb0690\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Was the member just reflecting on my ruling? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022520e982d48d24aa6a8472cf63071be9f\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Not at all, Madam Chair. I would never do such a thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ce7519e410e4d01a4e6326906586184\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The member will withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba17f67bb68241b5b10b5e4a2e9dc9d2\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d39ab8800d048d6a6e6d8e8561f197c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Tim van de Molen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b6e081049d7419aa1eb419fb6d5d8e9\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. The land classification that Mr Bayly was touching on hadn\u2019t been addressed by the Minister in terms of what happens now that we have the separate requirement for farmland to forestry versus farmland to farmland, or rather the continuation of that requirement, and the 2018 legislation did make it significantly different for someone wanting to come into New Zealand and invest in forestry. That pathway was much easier and it was for someone wanting to come into New Zealand and invest in agricultural land. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EAt a time now where we have significant global concerns around food security, food supply issues driven in large part off the war in Ukraine\u2014you know, we\u2019re looking at our productive capacity here, which we can still ramp up significantly if we are investing in the right manner, enabling that investment to then generate greater productivity. That comes to the comment that the forestry Minister made as well around looking at the Aitken farm, I think it was, where they had been able to increase productivity from the land even though they had taken out some pockets of it\u2014the less productive areas, I think you said, under 3\u00BD stock units per hectare\u2014and planted those pockets, and the overall productivity remained the same or potentially increased. Look, we have a fantastic track record of doing that in New Zealand in general. If you think now we have about 26 million sheep in the New Zealand flock. That dropped from a peak of 70 million, and yet we are producing more value from that 26 million sheep flock than we were from 70 million. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ESo we have a fantastic track record of innovation in the food and fibre sector in New Zealand and I\u2019m interested in the concern I raised before that he hasn\u2019t touched on yet around the impact of the split. They\u2019re still favouring the forestry investor because if you have two investors coming in, two foreign investors, one\u2019s wanting to acquire a farm for agricultural purposes to generate food production, someone else wants to buy the same farm for putting into forestry. Yet they\u2019re coming in both as overseas investors\u2014investors with a different playing field\u2014and that to me seems patently unfair. We are screwing the scrum and it is to the detriment of food production in New Zealand and I\u2019d like to hear what consideration he\u2019s given to that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4a6ea862a0148488b9153f5adeab6a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4a6ea862a0148488b9153f5adeab6a8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, just before I do that, officials have just told me that in answer to Mr Bayly\u2019s question, when I said we don\u2019t have the counterfactual test, and then I said that the test is compared with the current state of the land, the test is compared with the current state of the land but that\u2019s what the counterfactual test is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234f1258254804cf5870d719b1b9a37dd\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for correcting it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b63e1fc45a6481aa260dde8daf98e29\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. In respect of the last point the member\u2019s made, we disagree with that. We don\u2019t think we should be applying the stringent test that applies to farmland to forestry land. If the member wants to do that he\u2019ll be backing the Greens\u2019 amendment, which the Labour Party is opposing but which I understand his party is too. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022 data-id=\u00228b45241735594a3c891343c44d907983\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b45241735594a3c891343c44d907983\u0022\u003EDAMIEN SMITH (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. This is my final question to the Minister: how confident is he that Land Information New Zealand can record and have recorded all trees in the right place; and, going forward, if this industry grows, how confident is he that they will be able to keep those records so we can all be informed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002240584b58d82c4894b9abfe66e098ec52\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240584b58d82c4894b9abfe66e098ec52\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E The Overseas Investment Act records only deal with approvals or disapprovals of applications to buy land that is covered by the regime and monitoring of conditions if conditions are imposed. For example, if someone sought to acquire a farm that was mainly forestry land but had some high-value agricultural land, and they said, \u201CWe\u2019re going to subdivide it and sell off the highly productive horticultural land.\u201D, they\u2019d monitor against that. But they don\u2019t do that, in general, for all land in respect of the overall vision that was described by the Minister of Forestry, the Hon Stuart Nash, and it is good that we\u2019ve got a Minister who has a vision for the sector. That\u2019s actually achieved through not just the overseas investment rules but it\u2019s partly rules that lie in district plans and through the emissions trading scheme, as well as in overseas investment settings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u002224f08252abf74fe087201825e438a14f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224f08252abf74fe087201825e438a14f\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u0022552f5b7c961e47cd8f68b367ec336033\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022552f5b7c961e47cd8f68b367ec336033\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Minister, I was interested in your comments earlier where you said that land is special. And it\u2019s certainly something that I think most people who work and live on the land in New Zealand would agree with. In particular, those who are producing food certainly think it\u2019s special and it\u2019s their communities\u2014and certainly in my electorate of Southland, it\u2019s something I hear regularly. It is the benefit of a community, of people who grow things on their land, and the schools, the children, all the various businesses who provide services to the farmer and make the local economy work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EI\u2019m interested in why you\u2019ve chosen the benefits of New Zealand test relying on seven different factors. And if you are able to step us through why those seven different factors will be better than the farmland benefit test, which I note was another alternative that the Government looked at but said that in its view the farmland benefit test is more complex than the \u201Cbenefit to New Zealand\u201D test, which this legislation is changing to. If land is special and farmland is obviously providing food and is special, why not use that test rather than the seven benefits to New Zealand assessment test?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00225f336171183c41bb9be425b54bc29b7a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f336171183c41bb9be425b54bc29b7a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I have been through this a number of times and I\u2019m not allowed to mention whether members have been in\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255907310522d45ba8b6f2ac9539bb0b9\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Well not really; not tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1017c467c54472093a163ab1a6ac5a1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019ll actually read out exactly what I read last time so that there can be no ambiguity, because it\u2019s the same words I\u2019m reading from: there are three reasons why the general \u201Cbenefit to New Zealand\u201D test balances these objectives. First, the most stringent farmland benefit test would discourage the productive investment needed to support the sustainable growth of the production forestry sector. Additionally, the risks to productive learning could be managed under the general \u201Cbenefit to New Zealand\u201D test because an investor must demonstrate benefits in proportion to the sensitivity of land. \u201CProportionality\u201D in this sense means that overseas investment in our most sensitive land must demonstrate a higher degree of benefit than land that is not so sensitive. The assessment of the sensitivity of the land goes beyond its economic productivity and includes land of high conservation value, for example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EFinally, the farmland benefit test captures a broad range of land, including that which is unproductive or unsuitable for agriculture or horticulture. In these cases, it can impose a disproportionate burden on some investment. The Act already recognises this by providing for exemptions from it. The bill provides that forestry conversions should be a fourth exemption to the farmland benefit test.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u002276d9cdabd2964ff5967a164be14c53e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002276d9cdabd2964ff5967a164be14c53e9\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I just want to acknowledge my colleague Damien Smith who raised the issue of the Overseas Investment Office (OIO), and I alluded to that I was going to ask some more questions on that earlier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo we are supporting this bill, and we\u2019ve made that clear, obviously because it is a slight tightening up on the regime. We do welcome foreign ownership or foreign investment into our forests but we want to make sure that these new rules do work. So can the Minister just provide some certainty to the committee and certainty to the people who will be listening as to the role of the OIO?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EObviously, this is a more stringent requirement, so they require specialist skills. So not only the ability for OIO to process these applications in a timely manner, to do it on a fair basis, and also in terms of the point that Damien Smith raised, was the issue around monitoring once the arrangements have been agreed, the capability of the OIO to do that, and, certainly, that it will do that, because there have been some claims that the OIO have been less than robust in following up and monitoring investments. I\u2019m not talking in the forestry industry particularly, but on other foreign investments. So what certainty can the Minister provide to the committee and also to the people looking to potentially invest in New Zealand that they will be dealt with in a speedy, timely, and appropriate manner?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ebcd856ffe1943f289fc221e93cde539\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ebcd856ffe1943f289fc221e93cde539\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m confident that the committee can be assured that that will be the case. We actually have changed the fee regime. There\u2019s cost recovery on this to enable those jobs to be done properly. We\u2019ve also taken out some of the unnecessary minutiae of detail that used to have to be provided by applicants, so that it is somewhat streamlined and more efficient while still meeting the policy objective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022 data-id=\u002276d3aa15f0614c678dcddf7c4b1b3798\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002276d3aa15f0614c678dcddf7c4b1b3798\u0022\u003ESARAH PALLETT (Labour\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00228dc71e86f99c40e4b451c7dc718f76b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228dc71e86f99c40e4b451c7dc718f76b8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the question is that the Hon Eugenie Sage\u2019s amendments to Part 1 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 219 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c7390350bdc44a51a15adf8e9d899104\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 108\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; New Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000711\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227dbc14ade33340fe8123278117793ed8\u0022\u003EPart 2  Other amendments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00227bb6de8f891d4c29a67424247cd4ad89\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227bb6de8f891d4c29a67424247cd4ad89\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 2. This is the debate on clauses 8 to 10, and the Schedule\u2014\u201COther amendments\u201D. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u002263d768209b0140f58d4f7bf5825b6edf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263d768209b0140f58d4f7bf5825b6edf\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Again, I must confess to a contribution that will be reasonably narrow in its nature. Again, I don\u2019t profess to be an expert in the bigger-picture policy matters. I do understand, I think reasonably well, the different factors being played out. I look forward to the Minister explaining those further and those all around the Chamber interrogating him on those, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EMy relatively narrow question, then, is in relation to clause 10 of Part 2, which amends Schedule 4 of the Overseas Investment Act 2005. What\u2019s happening there is that there\u2019s a replacement of \u201Capplicant\u201D with \u201Cpersons referred to in subclause (2A)\u201D; so broadening what it means to be an applicant and have that status. What we see in that provision is that what was previously understood to be the applicant also now includes not only the applicant themselves but also the applicant\u2019s associates and also the individuals with control of the relevant overseas person.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI understand in general terms, of course, that we have such things as overseas persons; it\u2019s at the heart of the overseas investment regime, whether in relation to forestry or otherwise, that we distinguish between those who are not overseas or\u2014roughly speaking, I suppose\u2014New Zealanders with the right, as opposed to the privilege, to purchase land and other sensitive assets within New Zealand. That much is understood; it\u2019s obviously a key distinction between overseas or not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAnd then we\u2019ve got a relevant overseas person\u2014of course, a person in the law can be not only a natural person, what we regard as a human being walking around, but also may be a legal entity. So to the extent that that could be a trust or a company, I do wonder\u2014well, actually, a trust specifically. With the language there in clause (2A) and then in (c), \u201Cthe individuals with control of the relevant overseas person.\u201D\u2014I wonder if the Minister could confirm that it might be possible for individuals or natural persons to have control of a trust, and therefore be its legal owners, but actually the beneficial ownership is the relevant test really, in terms of the overseas investment regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister, and I think I might know the answer but I think it would nevertheless be useful for the Hansard to record his answer\u2014his views are more persuasive than mine, as the member and indeed the Minister putting it forward, and therefore whose intentions are going to need to be understood by courts and applicants and so on. Is it intended that those individuals that have control of a relevant overseas person, if that person is a trust, if we\u2019re talking about beneficial ownership as well as legal ownership\u2014because, of course, what we don\u2019t want to have is a scenario where New Zealand - based individuals; perhaps lawyers, accountants, or other such persons; I\u2019ll choose my words carefully as a former lawyer myself. If such persons might have control of a relevant overseas person or trust on behalf of those who are, to all intents and purposes, overseas persons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI know I\u2019ve said \u201Cpersons\u201D a lot. I\u2019m going to stop saying \u201Cpersons\u201D. I\u2019m going to stop saying words altogether, actually. I\u2019m going to resume my seat and hope that the Minister can provide some light on that subject.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9b5efb460b9452493c558920f79facc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9b5efb460b9452493c558920f79facc\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E This clause was added at the recommendation of the Finance and Expenditure Committee to clarify that when considering an application for a forestry standing consent, the regulator can consider the compliance record of the wider group of relevant entities and individuals associated with the applicant. I would have thought it would include, for example, the directors of a company if it was a trust that was purchasing it. I\u2019m not sure as to whether that would be caught, but I can get that information from officials if the member desires.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc75c36ec1c5453d8786da36b8b6e3f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc75c36ec1c5453d8786da36b8b6e3f2\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll take a call on this and give Minister Parker, hopefully, some time to provide a more fulsome answer for Mr Penk\u2019s very probing question there on clause 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ENow, I have a question in relation to the new clause 8A, around including the exemption for accommodation if the accommodation is for forestry purposes. So, obviously, the exclusion is\u2014it can\u2019t be residential properties on the land, but this creates the exception for that, if that accommodation is there for forestry purposes only. I think it\u2019s that last bit, \u201Cfor the purpose only of supporting forestry activities\u201D, that I just wanted to test with the Minister, because I have some concern that there may indeed be accommodation on a forestry piece of land that is used for dual purpose\u2014perhaps for both the forestry aspect in terms of managing that particular title of land, but also perhaps an agricultural use in terms of managing an adjacent property, a sheep and beef property or whatever it may be, and therefore having a use that is not forestry only. Or, indeed, having someone who has a property on a title working in the forestry aspect, but other tenants in that house are working on the neighbouring side of the fence, an adjacent title of land that has agricultural purposes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EIs that therefore excluded under this reasonably tight definition, being \u201Cfor the purpose only of supporting forestry activities\u201D? I would like to think that it would not exclude situations where there is a dual use. Or, indeed, it may be that it\u2019s not necessarily the same house or dwelling but it may be in adjacent sharing quarters, for example, that just happen to be located on this block of land instead of across the fence. This sometimes may be the case in farming senses, where properties end up where they are most conveniently located, from time to time, and that may of course have preceded a particular land use that has evolved over time but, in the broader context of that area, the ongoing land use remains for agriculture purposes from some part of the property or one particular dwelling in a wider curtilage sense and not another.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ESo can we clarify whether or not those particular examples might still be considered acceptable in terms of the carve-out under new sections 17(5)(a) and 17(5)(b), set out in clause 8A? Thank you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0b9dfdf5a2e4e1cb9ad40436624ea76\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0b9dfdf5a2e4e1cb9ad40436624ea76\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E In respect of overseas companies that are trusts, yes, the grouping of people whose, for example, compliance records can be assessed overseas by the Overseas Investment Office goes wider than the legal entity to include those who are in charge of it or in control of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the issues most recently raised in respect of new clause 8A, this was another minor technical change that was recommended by the Finance and Expenditure Committee to, effectively, give a little bit more flexibility to the Overseas Investment Office to approve sensible arrangements in respect of buildings that are on the land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u002242d52df747df434e80475dd4799ab391\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242d52df747df434e80475dd4799ab391\u0022\u003EWILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022d29a4e98371a44ce82696a2a7c7a71a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d29a4e98371a44ce82696a2a7c7a71a6\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Goodness me! The other aspect I thought was interesting of Part 2 is clause 8A, which amends Schedule 2 of the Overseas Investment Act, and that is talking about a certain subclause within that, and it\u2019s all about what could be regarded as land that\u2019s supporting forestry activities. And, of course, forestry activities is an important definition. It\u2019s an important concept to the bill. That\u2019s what we\u2019re interested in, of course, here we\u2019re talking about the importance of forestry, and, you know, from a \u201CNew Zealand Inc.\u201D perspective. Of course, one weighs up the various competing considerations, whether that\u2019s property rights of those who own land and should, you know, on the face of it, be able to sell those to whoever they should please, versus, of course, you know, the more strategic aims that we might have in terms of the land being put to its most productive use overall.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo, of course that\u2019s really significant, what we regard as such land. In this particular provision we see that where \u201C\u2026 accommodation is being provided for the purpose only of supporting forestry activities \u2026 being carried out on the farm land \u2026 or the relevant land \u2026\u201D\u2014and\u2014\u201Call the buildings being used for that accommodation are located on [the] land on which some or all of those forestry activities are being carried out \u2026\u201D, etc. So I think what\u2019s happening there\u2014but again, as always, grateful for the confirmation of the Minister\u2014is that we\u2019re saying that well, there might be land that\u2019s ostensibly or mostly being used for forestry activities, some bits of it may not be, but they may not be in a way that makes sense, in the sense that they are enabling forestry activity. So there might be accommodation but we\u2019re not talking about a hotel or other commercial accommodation. It\u2019s that specifically which is used for supporting forestry activity. So it seems to me that that\u2019s consistent with the purpose of the bill, the intent of the regime as a whole, and I think that\u2019s probably a sensible interpretation that anyone looking to invest under this Act should have regard to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI think that would be the way that it would be interpreted if there\u2019s a line call that the courts might be asked to make or, indeed, the office itself might be asked to make, where there might be accommodation that\u2019s perhaps ambiguous as to where it starts and ends, and there might be activities that are ancillary. Maybe it\u2019s accommodation to support forestry with workers but the workers might stay on longer in New Zealand if they\u2019re temporary for the purposes of a holiday or whatever. So any comments the Minister can make in relation to that to help clarify the intent of the regime, and, indeed, this particular provision, I think would be really helpful and interesting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00223c42e750b3094510b70ed7e4d19f2012\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c42e750b3094510b70ed7e4d19f2012\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I think that\u2019s the same issue that Mr van de Molen just raised, and so I refer him to that answer, respectfully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u0022745e018cb3aa46648ae397cc7cba29d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022745e018cb3aa46648ae397cc7cba29d3\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Respectfully, there was a slight difference there, Minister, between Mr Penk\u2019s contribution and my own, his initially being around the definition of forestry activities and then the use of that land. Mine was more around whether there could be accommodation either in the same dwelling where one person in there is working on the forestry land; another person, tenant, or worker in the same accommodation is working on adjacent land or, indeed, there are adjacent sharing quarters, for example, that are on the forestry land but have no use for that, but are used on an adjacent land and are perhaps rented to that farmer, or, indeed, in the sense where we have forestry workers coming into the accommodation for a period of time to carry out pruning, for example, and then leaving again, and the accommodation\u2014is it then able to potentially be used for other purposes outside of the time when it is being used for forestry purposes? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ESo, obviously, there are seasonal elements or specific times when forestry work will be required to be carried out, and plenty of times when it will not be, and the accommodation may not be used at all. So during those times, can it be used, for example, as shearers\u2019 quarters for a neighbouring farm when they are having their peak shearing season or for accommodation for school camp groups, for example? Are these sorts of activities enabled? Because it seems to be a very tight definition around purpose only of supporting forestry activities. My understanding, not being on the Finance and Expenditure Committee, but my understanding was, and to your point earlier, the intent was to allow some more flexibility, so can I get confirmation from the Minister that the examples that I have given would be allowed under his understanding of the intent of this? Because certainly it would be for me an appropriate consideration, especially if it\u2019s not at the cost of forestry work. You know, if that work can be carried out and then, when it\u2019s not being used, it can be utilised for some other cause, as long as it\u2019s not impacting on that forestry use, then surely that should be enabled as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f60b899d682c438ba0a3948537e732b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f60b899d682c438ba0a3948537e732b7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I can confirm that, but that\u2019s not in the schedules; that\u2019s in the first part of the bill, which does contain provisions to allow that flexibility. But we\u2019ve already considered that part of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u00220e2a28a0c53e4f23a40fbba5d27f0889\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e2a28a0c53e4f23a40fbba5d27f0889\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, I wonder if you could just give the committee a little bit of clarity around the purpose behind amending Schedule 3, which is in clause 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ESo I note there\u2019s a focus here on unconsented forestry rights. I\u2019d be grateful if you could just clarify, for the record, why it was necessary to change this to focus on unconsented forestry rights, and noting that in clause 9, new clause 7, it says, \u201CIn this clause, unconsented forestry right means a forestry right that is acquired otherwise than in reliance on a consent\u201D\u2014that\u2019s been changed to say\u2014\u201Cany of the following: (a) a consent: [or] (b) an exemption in, or an exemption granted under, this Act or the regulations (other than an exemption under this clause).\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ESo the secondary part of this is why an unconsented forestry right could be otherwise then\u2014the exemption; what is meant by an exemption granted under this Act? If you could provide some more information, for the record, on what that means, as well, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1f9b76e83834c4d819c73a4c259fd8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1f9b76e83834c4d819c73a4c259fd8e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E This is another minor and technical change which was made to clarify that when determining whether the 1,000 hectare exemption applies only unconsented forestry rights are considered in that calculation, i.e., if they\u2019ve already been approved elsewhere, they don\u2019t need to be counted again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022 data-id=\u00227e8c9265bca04b4892c0f2cbab6e3ac5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e8c9265bca04b4892c0f2cbab6e3ac5\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00223b63c149322f4e36a4d0718c323d8fdc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b63c149322f4e36a4d0718c323d8fdc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the Hon Eugenie Sage\u2019s amendments to Part 2 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 219 are out of order as being inconsistent with the previous decision of the committee. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c61f4b5b21764bdaadba22fbd9af584d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c61f4b5b21764bdaadba22fbd9af584d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Schedule stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ESchedule agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022483e0a39c4a348d3a66c03881827c73a\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3eefbd4af2942e3aaea924da68733db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3eefbd4af2942e3aaea924da68733db\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to our final debate, clauses 1 to 3, \u201CTitle\u201D, \u201CCommencement\u201D, and \u201CPrincipal Act\u201D. The question is that clause 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00222a3f841707374ea3ad394f0140d99aea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a3f841707374ea3ad394f0140d99aea\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that clause 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002266a8401602f6415e8a9d4784b0d83fb0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266a8401602f6415e8a9d4784b0d83fb0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that clause 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c6fb7552029243b980e6da8295242b23\u0022\u003EOversight of Oranga Tamariki System and Children and Young People\u2019s Commission Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226b8b072e1cb944ab88757d87cc729eca\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000755\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 9 August.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b17ffefa45e1427ab68a2e6393858ee7\u0022\u003EPart 2  Oversight of Oranga Tamariki system (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022657cbc1dfd434982a81c3254032b1c28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022657cbc1dfd434982a81c3254032b1c28\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to further consideration of the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System and Children and Young People\u2019s Commission Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t believe there\u2019s anybody likely to wish to take a call, if they do, they know they write \u201Ccall\u201D in the chat. If we receive new tabled amendments, I\u2019ll let members know so that they can refresh the House pages to see the new amendment. And finally, it would be helpful for members to ask multiple questions\u2014the flow of the debate goes extremely well when that happens\u2014if they have them of the member in charge during the call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EPart 2: this is the debate on clauses 12 to 42, \u201COversight of Oranga Tamariki system\u201D. Members, when we were last debating the bill, we were debating the question that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2715b9dda9a4ccc80cdcb675cf58c67\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2715b9dda9a4ccc80cdcb675cf58c67\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E As we resume the debate on Part 2 today, I wish to respond to some of the points that were raised at the end of the debate last night, given I didn\u2019t have an opportunity to do so. There were a few matters raised by the National Party and the Green Party that I\u2019d like to respond to this evening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ELouise Upston expressed concern that the monitor isn\u2019t independent enough, that, perhaps, in her mind, it was sitting too close to the centre of power, and that its work would be subject to what she called political considerations. As I\u2019ve previously made clear, the monitor will be a statutory officer with a duty in legislation to act independently. It will have the ability to initiate reviews of its own accord, and although Ministers will be able to ask the monitor to look into an issue, they cannot direct it not to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EOnce the monitor completes its reports, the agencies they relate to must respond, and respond quickly, because our Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 209 will substantially shorten the time frame they have to explain how they will address these matters of concern for our tamariki and rangatahi. The reports and responses must then be published by the monitor online and the reports tabled in the House. So the monitor will be free to investigate whichever systemic issues it sees fit, and the recommendations and the responses of the agencies to which they relate will be published, without any changes by Ministers or anyone else, for all to see. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EDespite this, Jan Logie expressed her concern that having a monitor reporting on Government agencies, she felt, was like a junior chief executive critiquing a very powerful one in the same Public Service. I want to make it clear that the decision about where the monitor sits is actually not in the bill. It was a matter for Cabinet, and that matter was determined by Cabinet. I also want to make clear that the monitor is a statutory officer. It will be operationally autonomous from other departments, including the Education Review Office, in relation to its monitoring role, as well as acting as a trusted adviser to the Children and Young People\u2019s Commission, the Government, and the public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI wanted to also just share that the concept is not new within Government. The Government Statistician has their duties and independence outlined in legislation, fulfilling a trusted role in the provision of data to both Government and the public. The monitor is also a critical role in the Oranga Tamariki system, and one that is of great importance to the wellbeing of our tamariki and rangatahi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI want to note, again, that our SOP has reduced the time agencies have to respond to reports by the monitor to increase the accountability of these agencies and the teeth of the monitor. The National Party had some conflicting views on independence. Unlike his colleagues in the Green Party, the member Christopher Penk expressed concerns that the monitor would be too independent. But I think perhaps the conflicting point made by National members actually goes to show that we may have struck the right balance on the independence of the monitor in this bill. Christopher Penk also worried about the requirement that the monitor produce a state of the Oranga Tamariki system report every three years, which he was concerned was too long to wait. I\u2019m pleased to advise Mr Penk that that is just a minimum requirement for that particular report. But I did talk about the other reports that would be required much more regularly than that particular one. The monitor\u2014again, I will just share\u2014can also carry out additional reviews on anything relating to the delivery of services or support through the Oranga Tamariki system as set out in clause 25. And if a matter requires urgent attention, the Minister and chief executive can also request they carry out a review\u2014clause 24. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI thought it would be worth reminding the committee that the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor has actually already published four reports on its website, including its first full report on agency compliance with all the national care standards and related matters and regulations earlier this year. Before there was progress reported last night on this debate, Jan Logie discussed a report from public policy analysts which she brought up to support an argument that she had regarding her thoughts that we didn\u2019t need to separate the monitoring and advocacy functions in the Oranga Tamariki system, and her concern that the different parts of the systems could inform and learn from each other and prevent\u2014and Jan Logie had numerous points throughout the debate in relation to the separation of the monitoring and advocacy. I just want to point out that the redress report that has been received from the royal commission actually stated that they supported the separation of those functions to ensure that the monitoring could be done in a robust way. That is why the bill clearly sets out and separates the functions of each entity in the system to make it as simple as possible also for our tamariki and rangatahi, and avoid the trade-offs between advocacy and monitoring that may happen if they are performed by the same entity. This separation does not mean that no one will be working together or learning from each other; in fact, our SOP further clarifies in clause 9 our expectation that the entities work more closely together than ever before. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThe bill also\u2014and this is in relation to questions that were raised\u2014provides for information to be shared between the commission, the monitor, and the ombudsman if \u201Cthe sharing of information would minimise the burden on individuals and agencies\u201D, or \u201Cthe sharing of information would assist [the commission] the Monitor or an Ombudsman in the performance of each of their functions, duties, and powers.\u201D And, absolutely, children and rangatahi are at the heart of that entire system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u002237e16b81d056448eaf494c1cd1ce096f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237e16b81d056448eaf494c1cd1ce096f\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. May I start by saying that I don\u2019t appreciate the Minister\u2019s mischaracterisation of my interrogation of the legislation last night in the committee of the whole House stage. A diligent member of Parliament takes this opportunity to tease out issues in the legislation, and to represent me highlighting the fact that accountability and independence should be weighed in the balance\u2014they\u2019re competing considerations to some extent\u2014seeking to reconcile them, inviting the Minister\u2019s comment, and to misrepresent that as somehow arguing in favour of more or less independence than my colleagues, I find rather, well\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bff7a94a1cef4ad2947fafddd4f4e664\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Shameful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c61798bc6bf5401ea7a8d7513389075d\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll just say irritating; we won\u2019t go further than that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAs for the point regarding reports not needing to be made any more frequently than three years\u2014and the Minister says, \u201CWell, that\u2019s the minimum requirement\u201D. That\u2019s my point. I pointed out that it was a minimum requirement; it could be as much as three years. Of course, it could be less. It could be three days, it could be three months, it could be three whatever\u2014whatever intervals that might be used. I can\u2019t think of any others, of course; I\u2019ve gone general on it, but that\u2019s the whole point. This is a very serious matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI presume the Minister agrees, and no doubt that she\u2019s trying her best, not only to get most of the sector off-side but her best to actually do the right thing. I presume she\u2019s trying to. I did presume, until such time as she actually doesn\u2019t seem to take seriously reasonable questions about accountability mechanisms within the bill. This is the whole thing. The whole thing is about accountability. The whole thing is about transparency. Yes, independence is an important value, but so too is the need for those who are involved in the system, those who are not involved in the system, but would critique and monitor it, and, most importantly, those who are so deeply affected by the system as to have their rights and freedoms curtailed by the system. It\u2019s important on all their behalf that we take these questions seriously, we ask these questions, we answer these questions, and we don\u2019t belittle these questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo I will take the opportunity to ask some serious questions, in good faith, about some aspects of Part 2 that I think are interesting and important. I hope the Minister shares my view that they\u2019re interesting and important, whatever substantive view she might have in terms of how those should be answered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo my question is in relation to the role of the Ombudsman. We see in Subpart 2 of Part 2 that the purpose of the subpart is to provide the Ombudsman with additional duties and powers when dealing with matters that fall under the Ombudsmen Act 1975. These relate to services and support delivered by Oranga Tamariki\u2014or OT as it\u2019s commonly known\u2014or care or custody providers. So that seems helpful, actually, just to throw a bouquet out there. It seems helpful that the Ombudsman, who is an officer of Parliament, who has a role to provide some accountability through this House, we know, effectively\u2014I suppose one might say, on behalf of the House. I don\u2019t know that I\u2019ve framed it particularly well, but, roughly speaking, it\u2019s a positive thing that we have someone who is part of the arrangements of the State but not part of the Government of the day, not part of the executive, even. It\u2019s part of Parliament, which is technically separate, has got some accountability mechanism there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo notwithstanding that that many people who have commented on the bill are dismayed, or at the very least questioning, but many are dismayed at the changing in responsibilities in relation to the Children\u2019s Commissioner. This, at least, so far as it goes, might be said to add an element of accountability. So that\u2019s fine. My question is, in terms of not only complaints and investigations that might be initiated by others, if the Minister sees a role for the Ombudsman in maybe initiating matters of inquiry. Of course, the Ombudsman has a role in relation to our prisons, so obviously a different kind of context, but at a level similar in the sense that people\u2019s freedoms of movement and so on are being constrained by the State\u2014pretty serious matter. So I just wonder if the Minister can explain how she would see circumstances in which the Ombudsman could actually initiate investigations into how OT is using its powers. I look forward to that. I think that would be helpful not only for the purpose of the committee, and I sense the Minister\u2019s ready to answer that question, so I\u2019ll simply resume my seat and say that I look forward to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00224d5e7bcf5e2a48fab8d97495830738cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d5e7bcf5e2a48fab8d97495830738cf\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, and I will also mention that a number of complaints received from the Children\u2019s Commission in recent years have been sent over to the Ombudsman because they do have the power and functions to be able to receive those complaints. Many of the complaints\u2014and I\u2019ve spoken to the Ombudsman about this\u2014have been able to be resolved without getting to the point of inquiry. However, absolutely, if they are not able to be resolved easily, then they can be escalated to an inquiry. This is not a new function for the Ombudsman. However, the bill in front of us provides much greater clarity with regards to the Ombudsman, complaints, and his ability to be able to receive those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022d0d5c5e7e9994151b4f73613039e9cb6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d0d5c5e7e9994151b4f73613039e9cb6\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019ll, firstly, just respond and thank the Minister for addressing some of the points I made last night. I do find it a bit frustrating to get the response about the concern about the public sector positioning of this\u2014to say that was a decision of Cabinet, it\u2019s not in this bill\u2014when, actually, the whole shape of this bill is formulated on the changing of the functions of the Children\u2019s Commission\u2014and will be the Children and Young People\u2019s Commission\u2014to sit alongside a monitor that sits within Government. That doesn\u2019t feel entirely, I don\u2019t know, open. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI also want to address the point the Minister made, to say that, actually, to have it within a department and a statutory office is not unique. I recognise that that point was addressed in Improving a System when Young Lives are at Stake, written by David King and Jonathan Boston, who pointed out that same point, that the Government Statistician, the Public Service Commissioner, and Commissioner of Inland Revenue are also all statutory officers. They go on to say, though, \u201CHowever, the circumstances surrounding these positions are quite different. They are areas where constitutional norms and consensus have built up over time, to all but guarantee full independence.\u201D Except they go on to say that the Public Service Commissioner could not be viewed in the same way, and, actually, there\u2019s a very close relationship in that sense to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI also want to address the point the Minister made about saying this was a recommendation of the royal commission and just express my real frustration in relation to that when, actually, the Royal Commission Forum, who have been observing those processes, wrote to the Government and to every member of the committee asking us to advocate, to pause this legislation until the royal commission finally reports, and noting that the interim report that the Minister is drawing on to make that comment\u2014they\u2019d only heard, like, about 20 percent of the evidence. They hadn\u2019t even looked at any of the material in the Children\u2019s Commission. They were only just identifying research gaps that they needed to try and fill. So to rely on that, in terms of justifying this legislation, feels very flimsy and problematic to me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI would also like to ask the Minister, in terms of the monitor and some of the other critiques that have been raised about this: we hear the Minister saying that there will not be the ability for the Minister to take work from the monitor\u2014I understand that\u2014just to be able to give them work, but there\u2019s no visible, at least, budget that goes with that. To me, that creates a real potential of actually saying \u201CHere\u2019s work, here\u2019s work, here\u2019s work.\u201D that then means other things they\u2019d planned fall off. Or, at the very least, it creates a tension for them in terms of their own independent programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EAlso, the up to three-yearly report on the state of Oranga Tamariki, which is similar, I would argue, to the reports that were done by Russell Wills, in terms of the Children\u2019s Commission, that were hugely influential and important for us as a country, my understanding is that the content of that report is going to be defined by regulation. That is political. That is not independent. So I would like to hear the Minister address that point and tell me how independence is actually maintained in that context. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI also want to speak to the point where the Minister has previously said that they can\u2019t support our Supplementary Order Paper to remove the clause to ensure that the monitor has an objective of supporting public trust and confidence in the Oranga Tamariki system. And I just re-emphasise that for many people, for myself, but many other people, that is a real point of concern. When we discussed this in the select committee, we were told that this has been a key objective for the bill since its inception, that the bill was borne out of reviews, due to reported failings of Oranga Tamariki system, and the resultant diminished public trust and confidence, so the system needs public trust and confidence in order to function. I ask the Minister: when everyone is saying, \u201CDo not do this. We do not trust this proposal.\u201D, how can she think that is going to build trust and that just telling the organisation that it has to deliver trust will do it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022a38daf4dff404113ba8006132b31ad80\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a38daf4dff404113ba8006132b31ad80\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Speaking to Part 2 of the bill and referring to the functions of the monitor again and the concern that the member has raised about the fact that we have allowed for the Government to be able to ask the monitor to undertake some work, I just want to refer to clause 24, that says, \u201CThe Monitor must carry out a review on any topic within their monitoring function at the request of the Minister responsible for the Monitor. However, a request under subsection 1 must not require the Monitor to stop carrying out any one or more of their monitoring activities currently under way or scheduled to begin in order to prioritise a review of the matter to which the request relates.\u201D So no request from a Minister can override what is being asked of the monitor through the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EAlso, I want to give some justification to why I actually think that that\u2019s really important. I actually think that Government after Government\u2014and I won\u2019t even just say this one; I will say previous Governments\u2014have had concerns and have expressed their concerns about the Oranga Tamariki system. And if we\u2019ve got a monitor in place, we want to be able to ask them to actually look into any areas that we think may be of concern or underperforming in some way, because I think, fundamentally, in this House, we all believe that we need an oversight system that works for those children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ESo it is not imposing something that I think is unfair or unreasonable on the monitor. I think that, actually, collectively, we might want independent advice on areas we are genuinely concerned about\u2014and I don\u2019t even think that\u2019s just us as a Government; I think the previous Government may have wanted the same thing as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EBut as I said, it can\u2019t undercut what is required or override what is required of the monitor through the legislation. The member has asked about budget; that\u2019s not something I can speak about with regards to the bill. And the member has asked about\u2014trying to think what else was asked about\u2014I think it was mostly to do with the monitor and the expectations around the monitor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EOh, the member did just raise concerns about the royal commission and the report that will be due next year. It\u2019s actually kind of related to Part 3\u2014well, it\u2019s definitely related to Part 3\u2014because we actually put a Supplementary Order Paper up in that part that reduces the time frame for the need to report back on the system, with the purpose of really responding to some of the calls out there for us to reduce that period of time. But that is for discussion in Part 3, so I won\u2019t continue to traverse that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8a6308c084e4e68bdeb2ba2e3a83cb8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8a6308c084e4e68bdeb2ba2e3a83cb8\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. And we are addressing before the committee of the whole House Part 2 of the bill. Part 2 covers clauses 12 to 42. I\u2019m just going to touch on\u2014the Minister referenced to Part 3, and we\u2019ll address it appropriately when we get there. But the time frames were issues that I reiterated at the select committee and was dispensed by officials and members from the Labour benches as not being significant to this. Child-centric is what I keep emphasising and reiterating.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EOn that note, coming back to Part 2, talking about the monitor\u2019s responsibilities, I addressed and put before the committee of the whole House last night\u2014last evening\u2014Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 230, it\u2019s one of my SOPs, and that was to do with clause 16. And, again, the Minister, on advice, it would appear from observation, has been advised that that\u2019s not relevant. I\u2019m going to bring that SOP 230 up again\u2014number 230.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve heard the Minister talk about the role of the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor, that there have been about four reports that have been filed thus far. It\u2019s well known that the children\u2019s monitor was established, the office and the appointment, in 2019. Here we are in 2022 and this bill\u2014soon to be law, and it will go through undoubtedly\u2014is about requiring what the functions and the duties are of the monitor. That\u2019s three years or four years post the establishment of the monitor who\u2019s put out four reports. I have one of those reports to hand, and I remind the Minister that the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor has reported the importance of the children and young person\u2019s voices, and I quote, \u201Callowing them to have a voice regarding decisions made about them, particularly when that child is in care.\u201D Further quote, \u201Cchildren will need to have a voice in the system\u201D, not about the system mentioning and referring and looking at other organisations and the overview of the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor, the Office of the Children\u2019s Commissioner, soon to be board, in an advocacy role, and the Ombudsman in terms of investigating complaints. But there\u2019s no specific reference to the positioning of children in the system. That\u2019s what my clause, the Supplementary Order Paper 230 was precisely doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EI reiterate, the bill in terms of the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor\u2019s tools and monitoring approaches, clause 16(2)(b) reads, \u201Coperate in a way that recognises the importance of children\u2019s and young people\u2019s families, wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, iwi, and communities \u2026\u201D, doesn\u2019t actually insert and include that it should operate in a way that recognise the importance of children and young people and their families, wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, iwi, and communities. I reiterate that this is a direct recommendation coming out of the Office of the Children\u2019s Commissioner, and for some reason has just been parked and dispensed with. Our children should be centre and central and pivotal to what the function of the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s why I say directly to the Minister, directly to the public who are listening in, and directly to the Office of the Children\u2019s Commissioner: I\u2019m advocating for the inclusion and the importance of children and young people\u2019s voices being particularly factored in to what the tools and monitoring approaches are of the monitor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EFurther to that, in the Supplementary Order Paper 209, clause 16(4) \u201CIn developing their tools and monitoring approaches, the Monitor must consult\u2014(a) the chief executive of Oranga Tamariki: (b) the chief executive of services approved under \u2026 Oranga Tamariki Act \u2026 (c) the Commissioner of Police\u201D. Where\u2019s mention of consultation, engagement directly, with the children and the young people? So my proposed amendment, is that there be the insertion of a clause 16(4)(d) \u201Ccare-experienced children and young people and their wh\u0101nau.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003ESo the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor report emphasises the necessity and the importance of that. And, again, I quote page 6 of the children monitor\u2019s report, dated May 2020, \u201Cchild-centric approaches. Considerable importance was put on placing tamariki within the context of their wh\u0101nau.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5000e1483134972ac1927047fca6b83\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5000e1483134972ac1927047fca6b83\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Some of what was brought up by the member was discussed last night, and we talked about the Government Supplementary Order Paper\u2014a lot of what came up from that member was discussed last night. We talked about the Government Supplementary Order Paper and, I think, actually, one of the Green Party ones as well, which further enhances the need to ensure the best interests of children and that children are consulted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThe issue with the Supplementary Order Paper that that particular member has put up is that that member is asking us to consult with every single child in care. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223be7059236df49aa859bd14180bc6900\u0022\u003EHarete Hipango\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022318ab156f26543b5b5e20276cb2075bf\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: Now, that is not practical\u2014it is\u2014and that would result in the slowest-moving system ever, which would not support or protect the children in the way that she is voicing that she would like to see them supported. The Independent Children\u2019s Monitor, as it currently exists\u2014and she is right; it has been around since 2019\u2014has already been consulting with care-experienced children when developing their tools, but it is certainly not practical to consult with every single one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u0022abce1a648afd4bbd870c62f97344b453\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022abce1a648afd4bbd870c62f97344b453\u0022\u003EKAREN CHHOUR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for the opportunity to speak to this issue. During the select committee process, it was very clear how distraught some of the submitters were in regards to the independence of the monitor and having trust in the monitor that it did have independence. Now, I\u2019d just like to speak to a report that was sent to the Minister on 16 April 2022, and this is a report I got from an Official Information Act request. The purpose of the report was to provide advice on specific independent provisions for the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System and Children and Young People\u2019s Commission Bill and it set out four different options on how you were going to look at putting independence into this bill. I have a few questions around some of the things written in this report, and one of them was\u2014it states \u201CMSD had initially explored a more explicit independence provision when drafting the bill similar to the independence provided to the Chief Archivist under the Public Records Act 2005, as there was a clear recognition that the monitor needs to be perceived to be independent in order for public support in trust and transparency. However, the Public Service Commission was not supportive of including this explicit legislative independence provision of this nature.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EWould the Minister mind letting us know why they weren\u2019t in support of having that kind of independence added into this bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00221e4e55c3feea4e6ba8023c45beb9ee38\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e4e55c3feea4e6ba8023c45beb9ee38\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to reiterate that the form of the monitor was a decision by Cabinet and is actually not traversed in this bill at all. The decision was made, and now we have drafted a bill that is in front of us with the level of detail around how it will work, but it\u2019s certainly not something that was in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea8b6b1de2b24382b3aa9cfd9f3d5db7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea8b6b1de2b24382b3aa9cfd9f3d5db7\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, for the opportunity to take a call on this piece of legislation. I want to raise a couple of questions in regards to the appointment process for the monitoring of the Oranga Tamariki system. I would like to ask around the appointment process for the independent monitor of Oranga Tamariki too. The question\u2014I note from the debate\u2014has been around the independence. I\u2019d like to have the Minister outline how the independent monitor is going to be appointed and what the process of that will be, because I think it\u2019s important that this committee understands how that process is going to be undertaken, who will be responsible for it, because, I think, in the interests of making sure that this committee appreciates the independence\u2014if that is what it is to be\u2014that process should be clearly articulated by the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EI also just want to make a quick couple of questions in regards to clause 17 in regards to the M\u0101ori advisory group. I note that the monitor must appoint a M\u0101ori advisory group in order to support meaningful and effective engagement with M\u0101ori. I\u2019d like to understand, again, the process by which the appointment process for that must take place. It says here in clause 17(2), \u201CA person must not be appointed as a member of the M\u0101ori Advisory Group unless, in the opinion of the Monitor, the person is qualified for appointment, having regard to the person\u2019s\u2014(a) experience and knowledge of children\u2019s and young people\u2019s rights and issues in the context of the Oranga Tamariki system; and (b) experience and knowledge of tikanga M\u0101ori.\u201D Now, obviously that has some criteria involved in that, but as we\u2019ve seen from recent appointments to the ministerial advisory group on Oranga Tamariki that there have been a number of questions raised in relation to individuals and the fact that CVs were not required or disclosed as part of that process, which I think is absolutely shameful when we are talking about some of the most vulnerable New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022217eb3f7a0d94786b207e8650802252a\u0022\u003EHarete Hipango\u003C/span\u003E: The checks were not done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f26c207a3c647bdbaedd331d5c37e80\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: The checks were not done\u2014the background checks were not done. I think it\u2019s critically important that this committee has assurances that those checks will be undertaken in regards to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ESo this Government has, effectively, in that appointment process, I think, undermined confidence in Oranga Tamariki, and particularly in the Government\u2019s ability to manage that system by failing our young people, by not actually doing that CV check and background check. I think it would be highly useful to the committee to have the Minister actually answer questions to ensure that the processes in place under this legislation in regards to the appointment will be more thorough. And I assume that it will probably be more thorough because it won\u2019t be a ministerial appointment, ironically. That\u2019s the real issue in regards to those appointments was actually it was the Minister who was in control and the Minister wanted to find a quick way through. But here I assume it will probably be more rigorous, but I think it\u2019s important that we actually have that laid out very clearly for the committee to be able to understand. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u002201fca1177f8548f580c08f11eb8ec7c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201fca1177f8548f580c08f11eb8ec7c3\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to make clear that the bill\u2014and particularly Part 2 of the bill that we\u2019re looking at at the moment\u2014does not seek to amend the Public Service Act with regards to the process for the appointment of chief executives. That stands. It\u2019s the Public Service Act. It still remains with the Ombudsman, for instance, that it\u2019s the Officers of Parliament Committee that takes that through its process, I think, from memory. And the Children\u2019s Commissioner and the Chief Children\u2019s Commissioner, as is in the bill, is still appointed via Cabinet. There\u2019s no attempt to change any of the mechanisms there through this bill in any way, and nothing is stated in here that does that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00223b6cebf0401f4fd2b0ce47bbb4d0025d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b6cebf0401f4fd2b0ce47bbb4d0025d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, I have time for one more quick call before I need to report progress. I will take Karen Chhour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u0022c50364d58af043ca8ad0dbad3f241bd4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c50364d58af043ca8ad0dbad3f241bd4\u0022\u003EKAREN CHHOUR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. So just going back to this report, it states, \u201Csubmissions at the select committee stage were largely opposed to the bill. A lack of independence of the Monitor was cited as one of the key reasons for not supporting the bill. Some submitters recommended the inclusion of a specific legislative independence provision in the bill, however the majority recommended that the Monitor would be established as a Crown entity to ensure independence from Ministers\u201D\u2014then goes on to say, \u201CCabinet decided that the Monitor would be a departmental agency hosted by Education Review Office (ERO). Advice on the home of the Monitor was addressed that if the Monitor was housed within ERO, the Monitor would face issues regarding the perception of ministerial influence.\u201D I\u2019m just wondering what kind of advice did you receive on that, and how damaging the perception of ministerial influence would be on public trust?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00222f0b00439aea434e99ecb7ee9508c482\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f0b00439aea434e99ecb7ee9508c482\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E We looked at overseas examples of where they had split monitoring and advocacy, and the rationales for that\u2014also the redress report that came through from the royal commission that felt that it was really important to differentiate between the two, and to keep them separate. We had to make a determination, as a Cabinet, when given the different options. We absolutely agreed that the monitor needed to have the level of independence that we have clearly articulated in the bill that we have in front of us. But we also thought, given our experience and sometimes the questions that we\u2019ve had of Oranga Tamariki in general\u2014and I know previous Governments and all parties in the House have\u2014that we wanted the ability to be able to ask them to undertake work where we had concerns with the system. I think that that\u2019s a really important part of what we\u2019re able to do with the monitor, with the way in which we\u2019d set it up. If it had a higher level of independence, we would have no ability to even be able to ask them to do any additional work that may be reflective of the concerns that we might have. So we as a Cabinet\u2014again, it\u2019s not in the bill\u2014made that determination.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002253e5e68bf2304cc992c74d15ebe010f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253e5e68bf2304cc992c74d15ebe010f3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for me to report progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022438b845bfb314417a1377a0288d60cc1\u0022\u003EReport of Committee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b835c3661a4441a88f2915824c7ec44a\u0022\u003EReport of Committee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022de6355496cac42fc89b697638eeebdab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de6355496cac42fc89b697638eeebdab\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, the committee has considered the Appropriation (2022/23 Estimates) Bill and reports progress. The committee has also considered the Overseas Investment (Forestry) Amendment Bill and reports it without amendment. The committee has also further considered the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System and Children and Young People\u2019s Commission Bill and reports progress. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u002245596052edd84ef588044c5f606ba1b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245596052edd84ef588044c5f606ba1b1\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The House is suspended, and I will resume the Chair at 9 a.m. tomorrow for the extended sitting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 9.58 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Thursday).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202208100bcaf49c4feb4e4db81b8e92e39c2219000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fdba8de3410b4faa82e08449b1a1f9d8\u0022\u003EWEDNESDAY, 10 AUGUST 2022\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fe2c040d7fa14bb386f284b90759ef86\u0022\u003E(continued on 11 August 2022)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00220ca3a7b2f84b4cfb8710b5bde61dcc04\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ca3a7b2f84b4cfb8710b5bde61dcc04\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Good morning, members. The House is resumed for the extended sitting. I call on Government order of the day No.5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002265ee3c03c938426c9d8b786d9ab64bb6\u0022\u003EManiapoto Claims Settlement Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229725d6eb6224472fbad02a0f3ad46656\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u00225fd1f987554e4fe8a961617b1d19c434\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225fd1f987554e4fe8a961617b1d19c434\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Maniapoto Claims Settlement Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246cd80baf75d4c27852fbf336e3e7af7\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b150ff450fc4593a1e84c997c048871\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Maniapoto Claims Settlement Bill be now read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ET\u0101kiri mai ana te ata, ki runga o ng\u0101kau m\u0101rohirohi. Korihi ana te manu kaupapa, ka ao, ka ao, ka awatea. Tihei mauri ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EE mihi ana ki a koutou kua tae mai nei i runga i te karanga o te kaupapa o te r\u0101, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa. E mihi ana ki te hunga mate, haere, haere, haere atu. Ki a t\u0101tou te hunga ora, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou. Te whakam\u0101nawatia ng\u0101 mana o \u0113nei whenua e t\u016B \u0101huru nei, t\u0113nei au, otir\u0101 m\u0101tou te K\u0101wanatanga e mihi nei ki te kaupapa o te w\u0101, Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E[Dawn breaks, a new morning and a dauntless heart. The voice of this issue now sings, a new dawn leads to the full light of day. I now begin.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EGreetings to one and all who have responded to the call of this issue to be here today. I acknowledge those who have passed, may you rest in peace. And to us who remain, welcome one and all. To pay tribute to these comfortable lands, I stand here, we the Government stands here acknowledging the present issue, therefore to Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto, greetings to you all, greetings, greetings one and all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThis bill gives effect to the deed of settlement signed by Maniapoto and the Crown in November 2021. The deed of settlement acknowledges all the remaining historical Treaty of Waitangi claims of Maniapoto. Maniapoto is an iwi based in Te Rohe P\u014Dtae, the King Country, in and around Taumarunui, M\u014Dkau, Pureora, Te K\u016Biti, \u014Ctorohanga, Te Awamutu, and K\u0101whia. Their area of interest includes the adjacent marine environment and part of the exclusive economic zone, and I\u2019ll come back to that a little later in my remarks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe historical claims of Maniapoto relate to loss of life in conflicts with the Crown. Maniapoto bore the costs of the New Zealand Wars. The Crown failed to uphold promises made in the 1880s relating to Maniapoto land administration and self-determination. The Crown acquired Maniapoto land in an aggressive manner. These actions have contributed to economic and social marginalisation within New Zealand society and the loss of traditional tribal structures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ENow, through the Maniapoto settlement, the Crown will apologise for its actions, and my hope is this settlement will reset our relationship and provide the basis for the Crown to work alongside Maniapoto to help it rebuild its social, cultural, and economic structures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThis bill comprises seven parts detailing cultural and commercial redress, natural resources redress, and the Crown\u2019s apology redress. I look forward to describing this bill in greater detail at its third reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EManiapoto has established Te Nehenehenui, the post-settlement governance entity that will receive the settlement assets on behalf of Maniapoto and represent the iwi in its future dealings with the Crown. I acknowledge Te Nehenehenui and all members of Maniapoto\u2019s negotiating team. I acknowledge Maniapoto representatives are in the House today, including Bella Takiari-Brame, chair of Te Nehenehenui; Keith Ikin, chair of Maniapoto M\u0101ori Trust Board; Matua Tiwha Bell, former chair of Maniapoto M\u0101ori Trust Board; Matua Pat Stafford; and other kaum\u0101tua, trust board members, and staff. Your dedication and determination have been vital in the path towards settlement. I also acknowledge and thank you again for the wonderful carving that you gifted me the last time we met. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI also acknowledge the previous Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations, the Hon Christopher Finlayson, as well as Government agencies and local authorities for their contributions to the bill. I want to also acknowledge the chief Crown negotiator, David Tapsell, who represented the Crown right from the outset of negotiations. I acknowledge my colleagues in the House who whakapapa to Maniapoto, and in that respect I particularly acknowledge the Hon Nanaia Mahuta, the former lead negotiator from Maniapoto, who began the negotiation process and for whom I know this settlement carries special significance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe bill was referred to the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee on 14 December 2021. The committee reported back to the House on 15 June this year. They received and considered 26 submissions. Two submitters supported the bill and 19 submitters opposed the bill or sought changes to it. Nineteen submitters spoke to their submissions online in March. I\u2019d like to extend my thanks to the committee for their work and consideration of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe committee carefully considered the evidence presented by Rereahu and Te Ihinga-a-rangi. It sought further advice on the background to their engagement with the Crown, particularly the mandating process. Representatives of these groups are concerned for the loss of their independent identity. These concerns are acknowledged. However, I can reassure these groups that there is considerable scope for their interests and identities to be accommodated within the structure of Te Nehenehenui. I encourage them to remain engaged in the conversation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe committee recommended minor technical amendments to the bill. I\u2019m satisfied with the committee\u2019s recommendations as they will ensure the redress agreed in the Maniapoto deed of settlement can be properly implemented through this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI want to mention here a special and novel feature of the Maniapoto Claims Settlement Bill. This bill recognises a statement of Maniapoto interests out to 17.4 nautical miles from the coast, within the exclusive economic zone. While this is an existing interest under section 4 of the Exclusive Economic Zone and Continental Shelf (Environmental Effects) Act 2012, this bill recognises that Maniapoto presented the Rohe P\u014Dtae petition to the House of Representatives in 1883. That petition described Maniapoto interests as extending 20 miles\u2014that\u2019s 17.4 nautical miles\u2014out to sea and it was part of a series of agreements between Maniapoto and the Crown in the 1880s which were intended to set the relationship between the parties. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ERather than creating ambiguity, this explicit recognition clarifies rights under the Exclusive Economic Zone and Continental Shelf (Environmental Effects) Act for the area over which it applies. It is not an exclusive recognition and it does not confer additional rights on Maniapoto. It does not preclude or exclude recognition of other existing interests in the same area, but it provides certainty that Maniapoto will receive notifications that they are already entitled to receive. Above all, it honours the agreements and the relationship that Maniapoto and the Crown established all those years ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EAnother feature of this bill I want to mention are clauses 21 and 22, concerning land subject to Te Awa Tupua (Whanganui River Claims Settlement) Act 2017. Te Pou Tupua is the human face of Te Awa Tupua and it acts in its name. There are or may be small watercourses running through land that will be transferred to Maniapoto, the beds of which are parts of Te Awa Tupua. Maniapoto wish Te Pou Tupua to assume landowner functions for these riverbeds. This does not preclude Te Pou Tupua and Maniapoto, together with Ng\u0101ti Hau\u0101 in respect of jointly vested sites, from agreeing an arrangement for them to administer such riverbeds at a later time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe second reading is a part of the last stage of the settlement process that seeks to recognise what is important to Maniapoto and to provide redress for historical breaches of the Treaty. This is another step towards acknowledgment, recognition, and reconciliation. I hope that it can allow for Maniapoto to have confidence for the future. I look forward to welcoming back a larger contingent of Maniapoto to the House for the third reading in the very near future. I commend this bill to the House. N\u014D reira, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002261194fee2f6d44b3a9e6bf19b66a8423\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261194fee2f6d44b3a9e6bf19b66a8423\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u00227a9d41d6ec7844638549c8e461fb7b33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a9d41d6ec7844638549c8e461fb7b33\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I rise on behalf of the National Party, as the National Party\u2019s spokesperson for Treaty negotiations, to speak on the Maniapoto Claims Settlement Bill at its second reading. To the members of Maniapoto in the gallery, I welcome you here\u2014t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa\u2014and to all those watching online, I welcome you as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThis bill gives effect to the deed of settlement signed on 11 November 2021 between the Crown and Maniapoto. The deed will settle all the historical Treaty of Waitangi claims of Maniapoto resulting from acts or omissions from the Crown before 21 September 1992. The Maniapoto area of interest encompasses the King Country, including the adjacent marine environment\u2014part of the exclusive economic zone\u201417.4 nautical miles out to sea. The principal townships within the area of interest are Taumarunui, Maniaiti / Benneydale, M\u014Dkau, Pureora, Te K\u016Biti, \u014Ctorohanga, Te Awamatu, and K\u0101whia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThis bill contains provisions related to settlement redress that require legislation for their implementation. Other aspects of the settlements are provided for only in the deed, because they do not require legislative authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThe signing of the deed of settlement between Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto and the Crown has been a process that has taken over 30 years to complete. The settlement is testament to decades of hard work and negotiation between Maniapoto and the Crown, and signifies the beginning of a new relationship between both parties based on trust, cooperation, and respect for the Treaty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EManiapoto\u2019s historical grievances relate to loss of life in conflicts with the Crown, and bearing the costs of the New Zealand Wars. The Crown acknowledges that it deliberately undermined Maniapoto independence, failed to uphold promises made in the 1880s relating to Maniapoto land administration and self-determination, and acquired Maniapoto land in an aggressive way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EIt has been a long journey for Maniapoto to reach the journey that we are here today. No settlement can ever compensate for the mamae that Maniapoto have endured for many generations. However, this is a very big and important step forwards, and I wish to acknowledge those who whakapapa to Maniapoto in the House, and in particular the Hon Nanaia Mahuta. I know this has been a big piece of work for her as well over many years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThe settlement package is one of the largest negotiated, and it includes financial redress which will, in total, be worth approximately $177 million, relationship agreements with various Crown agencies, the transfer of 36 sites back to Maniapoto as cultural redress, the first right to purchase Crown lands in the future, an agreed historical account, and an acknowledgment of Treaty breaches and a formal apology for those breaches.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EWe heard a number of submissions on the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, of which I am a member. There were some significant concerns raised by Rereahu and Te Ihinga-a-rangi. The committee carefully considered those and we sought further advice, particularly around the mandating process, and we also carefully looked at the Waitangi Tribunal, which had considered a lot of these matters. We acknowledged those concerns, and I take heart from Minister Andrew Little\u2019s speech before, where he reached out to them and asked them to remain engaged in the process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThere was an issue that I did raise that we wished to have clarification on at the very first reading of this, around clauses 124 and 125 under Subpart 9 and section 4 of the Exclusive Economic Zone and Continental Shelf (Environment Effects) Act, and the interplay between those. I engaged with the Minister and I\u2019m thankful for the clarification received from his officials, which were incorporated into the report back to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThe commentary states\u2014and I\u2019ll just read it out\u2014\u201CClause 124 provides Maniapoto\u2019s statement of interest in the [Exclusive Economic Zone]. Maniapoto\u2019s interest extends to 17.4 nautical miles out from the coast, not to the full extent of the EEZ. Clause 125 provides for Crown recognition of that interest as an existing interest under section 4 of the Exclusive Economic Zone and Continental Shelf (Environmental Effects) Act 2012 (EEZ Act). The recognition provided by clause 125 is only for the purposes of the EEZ Act. It is not an exclusive recognition and does not confer additional rights on Maniapoto. It does not preclude or exclude recognition of other existing interests in the same area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u201CThe EEZ Act already requires the responsible Minister and consent authorities to notify iwi authorities of any proposed regulations, proposed EEZ policy statements, applications for marine consent for a publicly notifiable activity, or applications for marine consent for a non-notified activity if the Environment Protection Agency considers an iwi authority may be affected by the application. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u201CAs such, Maniapoto would already be notified under existing statutory requirements of such applications within the Maniapoto rohe. Other iwi authorities would also be notified should the application also fall within their rohe. This process provides for Maniapoto to submit about impacts on their interests, which must be taken into consideration as relevant matters in decision-making by the Minister and consent authorities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u201CThe recognition provided by clause 125 will give more certainty that Maniapoto will receive notifications it is already entitled to receive, and provide a clear basis for Maniapoto to assert its right to have impacts on its historical interests considered by decision-makers. The recognition provided by clause 125 does not amount to a new interest, an exclusive interest, or a veto on proposed regulations, proposed policy statements, or applications for consent.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ESo that provided clarity around the questions that I raised in the first reading, and I\u2019m grateful that those have been clarified, as I hope they would be through the process, and I thank the Minister and his officials for engaging with that to provide that clarification to the select committee and, ultimately, to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThis is an important moment. We obviously have the third reading still to go, and that will be the culmination of this process and the start of a new process for the relationship between the Crown and Maniapoto. It is a privilege and honour to be part of this process today and to be part of the journey towards creating that new relationship, which is a hugely important one, and recognising the importance and the growing future which will be a very exciting one for Maniapoto. With that, I\u2019m very happy to support this bill through to the third reading, and I look forward to its further progression and the completion of this process and the beginning of a new one. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd25fe3824c04d2dba2cfb45282ef4fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd25fe3824c04d2dba2cfb45282ef4fb\u0022\u003ET\u0100MATI COFFEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Tuatahi, he mihi t\u0113nei ki a koutou o Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto. Tainui waka, Tainui tangata e mihi kau ana ki koutou katoa kua tae mai nei ki te tautoko i t\u0113nei kaupapa, t\u014D pire.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E[Firstly, I greet you of Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto. The Tainui canoe and the Tainui people acknowledge your coming here to support this issue, your bill.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EI would like to first of all just thank our manuhiri who have come here today to witness and to be part of this process. So often over this COVID pandemic, we\u2019ve had nobody in the gallery, so it\u2019s really nice to have warm bodies in the House to be able to talk to. So I just want to acknowledge that, first and foremost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EThe Minister has outlined the couple of changes that the select committee requested, but I\u2019ve got to say that it\u2019s never easy. When you\u2019re talking about historical Treaty settlements, they are never easy, and they\u2019re made harder by the fact that there is a deed of settlement that happens, everybody signs up to it, and then it comes to the select committee for a formal process through the parliamentary system. We can\u2019t substantially change the things that occur in the deed of settlement from the time of the deed of settlement to now\u2014and nor should we\u2014but we should be able to scrutinise the process, and if we believe that the process has been wrong or if we believe that something needs to be raised, then we do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EPart of that process is the submission hearings, where we have to listen to everybody\u2019s side of the story, and sometimes that comes with a lot of heartache and a lot of pain. In this particular situation, we felt that heartache and we felt that pain that has gone on between some parts of the iwi who believe one way is the right way, and other parts of the iwi who believe that they are right and that they want to pursue things the way that they did. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EThe Minister did briefly say that, in total, we\u2019ve had 26 submission: only two in support, 11 in opposition, nine wanting to see changes to the bill, and four where we would actually say, \u201CNo position expressed.\u201D They\u2019re the aunties and the uncles that just want to be heard about something. We get to the end of their submission and we say, \u201CDid they support it or not?\u201D and we don\u2019t really know, so they go down as \u201CNo position expressed.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EHowever, some of those people that didn\u2019t support the bill just generally oppose the Treaty settlement process. They believe that it\u2019s divisive or they believe that the Crown is not doing enough, but they came forward and they had their voice heard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003ESome of the submissions talked about the Minister and talked about the fact that in their position, they felt as though there\u2019d been a lack of consultation with the Minister, and I want to say that we had to scrutinise that as well. We had to find the information on how many times did this particular group meet with the Minister, and we were satisfied that there had been due diligence on that part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EThis has been a long road for the people of Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto, and, again, it was made harder because there had been these differing factions. We worked out really early on that there was amongst the people that were causing a bit of dispute a real, fundamental whakapapa recollection about Rereahu and about Maniapoto and about Ihinga-a-Rangi and where everybody sits in that, and what became clear to us was that this was a conversation about mana and about where people felt as though their mana was, where they wanted it to be, and the impact that they felt was going to be felt by people if they didn\u2019t sort this out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003ESo this became very quickly a conversation about who had the mana, was the mana handed over, or could mana be handed over, and these are really deep philosophical issues for the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee to have to grapple with. It\u2019s easy when everybody agrees, but, actually, when they don\u2019t, you really have to sit down and ask the questions: has the process been followed, and what exactly is our job in this House? There\u2019s one thing that is not the job of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee to do, and that\u2019s to decide what the right whakapapa is or who gave mana to whom. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EWe have to go with information that\u2019s around us, and I want to point to a very pertinent clause. It\u2019s an important argument. The Rereahu position was summarised in a submission by Grant Erskine from Afeaki Chambers, which said that the bill would remove the ancestral association of two iwi, Rereahu and Te Ihinga-a-Rangi. The submission stated that it didn\u2019t want to prevent Maniapoto from settling with the Crown, but it didn\u2019t want Maniapoto\u2019s claims to, effectively, confiscate the land over which Rereahu iwi and Te Ihinga-a-Rangi iwi have mana whenua. The submitters claimed that Maniapoto do not have a mandate from Rereahu or Te Ihinga-a-Rangi to agree settlement terms which relate to them. The submission states that \u201CThe Bill, if enacted, would create a fresh grievance.\u201D, and that\u2019s something that we don\u2019t ever want to do. We never want to create a grievance out of a grievance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EWhat we did in that position was we took advice from the Waitangi Tribunal report, and, again, this parliamentary process that we\u2019re going through is just one part of the process. Our iwi have been on this process for a long time, working through the Waitangi Tribunal and working back at home with the iwi. There have been many incarnations of this. In the tribunal report, Whatu Ahuru, and also the other report, the Maniapoto mandate report of 2020, the report provided findings and recommendations on how to settle claims with the rohe of P\u014Dtae region, and it acknowledged that there are alternative readings of the Rereahu whakapapa. But the tribunal came down in favour of the interpretation that Rereahu had conferred his mana tangata on Maniapoto and that the Crown had been guided by this finding in its approach to the mandate challenges. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EIn the right of reply that we have from the Maniapoto M\u0101ori Trust Board, they acknowledged that a stand-off had happened between the aspiration for a collective settlement versus the aspiration for multiple settlements, and that was at the heart of what most speakers had gone and put forward. We believe that the Maniapoto M\u0101ori Trust Board always wanted a collective settlement, but argued that this didn\u2019t meant subservience for any of those individual groups which would make up the new governance entity, Te Nehenehenui. We were satisfied that the new entity Te Nehenehenui would keep the door open for those other iwi that wanted to come and sit at the table, and that\u2019s what the structure currently looks like. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EThere is a need and a want to get this show on the road, and this has been far too long, wh\u0101nau. So I look forward to the third reading, where we can actually tick this off so that our iwi can move forward with confidence. They can start investing, they can start building, and they can start on their journey of reparation for what this Crown did\u2014the Government in this Parliament that was standing in right here. We need to be able to just give the money over and say sorry and do what\u2019s right and put things right, and that will make us feel better in here, but, actually, it\u2019s the start of a whole new journey for the iwi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003ESo I congratulate you on getting this far. I want to thank all of the submitters that appeared before the select committee, even though many of them didn\u2019t support where this was going. But we know that this is a process, this is a journey, and I\u2019m looking forward to moving this journey out of this House so that our wh\u0101nau up there can actually move on with their settlement and with their lives so that they can make the decisions that our tamariki mokopuna need them to be able to make hei oranga m\u014D te iwi [for the well-being of the people].\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira, e te wh\u0101nau huri rauna i t\u0113nei Whare, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, mauriora ki a t\u0101tou katoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E[So to the family all around this House, greetings, greetings, and life to one and all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022 data-id=\u00220cc5026344f34eec86e71aaf72dd1737\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220cc5026344f34eec86e71aaf72dd1737\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO (National):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113nei taku karanga ki te p\u0101nuitanga tuarua o t\u0113nei pire. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E[This is my call on the second reading of this bill.] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EThis is my call to make an address to the House and, importantly, ka nui te mihi ki ng\u0101 manuhiri [I acknowledge the guests]. Haere mai, nau mai r\u0101 i t\u0113nei Whare, Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto, ng\u0101 uri o Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E[Welcome to this House, Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto, the descendants of Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EIn taking this call at second reading, I stand as a member of the National Party. Importantly, I stand as uri of W\u2019anganui and always carry that, as we know, being descendants of the rohe of the tribal peoples that we come from. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EIn speaking to the Maniapoto Claims Settlement Bill, this is the second reading. To explain to members of the public listening and gathered, the second reading is when we bring the bill back to the House after there\u2019s been scrutiny at the select committee level, and colleagues have addressed the House explaining some of that engagement and k\u014Drero that occurred. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EBefore I move further to address the components of the bill, I acknowledge the Hon Andrew Little as Minister for Treaty settlements, his predecessor, the Hon Christopher Finlayson, and, importantly, the Hon Nanaia Mahuta for the fact that you have led and picked up the mantle from generations before to carry that through, amongst the other leaders and representatives gathered in the Whare today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EIn so far as addressing what the second reading of the bill is, and picking up on the addresses that have been made by Minister Little and also by the chair of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, T\u0101mati Coffey, I do sit on the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, alongside my colleague Joseph Mooney. But regrettably, because I was called to participate in other matters, I didn\u2019t hear all of the submissions, although I have read them. There is a difference, though\u2014reading as opposed to being present and listening\u2014because of the heartfelt settlement that goes with that level of engagement kanohi ki te kanohi. So I\u2019ve picked up on that from listening to the k\u014Drero of my colleagues but also, as much as I possibly could, from reading the documents and from the small part that I did have of the engagement in listening to some of the commentary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003ESo it has been traversed, the chronology of the passage of where this bill has arrived at today. The history is encapsulated in the bill. The bill is comprised of seven parts, 233 clauses, and six schedules. Encapsulated within the bill, importantly, is the factual historical account, and I always encourage New Zealanders who are listening in to these debates about the importance of what the factual correct account is, because what many of us have been exposed to through our education system and the learning of my generation before is the inaccuracy of that. So these bills put the record straight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Affairs Committee has provided a report back to the House and that report is indicating what amendments are proposed after consideration of and listening to the submissions\u2014the evidence, importantly, from the people most affected and afflicted\u2014and then also listening to the advice of the officials from Te Arawhiti. It\u2019s detailed in the report, and I\u2019d hoped that the people of Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto\u2014and it\u2019s been addressed in the House today also that there have been some disputes around the positioning of mandates and authorities, and as to whose account takes precedence and priority. In the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, when we receive the bill and we listen to the accounts by way of evidence, we do take that to heart. We factor that in, and I am often cognisant that by the time we receive this information, so much has gone on before that it is somewhat perplexing as to what we are able to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s also important that any of the tensions, the conflicts, the challenges\u2014the raruraru\u2014that has been canvassed further before the select committee\u2014it\u2019s preferable that those matters are resolved amongst the people who come to us, and the history has been accounted by way of various disputes that have been put to the Waitangi Tribunal and the rulings that have been made accordingly. So we\u2019ve heard some of the raruraru and the associated mamae and feelings and tensions in relation to the story from Rereahu and Ng\u0101ti Te Ihinga-a-rangi. That has been taken into account but\u2014importantly\u2014so has the date of settlement and the journey that has been traversed through that period of time to arrive at that point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003ESo the report that the select committee has presented back to the House is indicating proposed amendments, and those proposed amendments, in particular, happen to refer to my people. In relation to Te Awa Tupua\u2014the W\u2019anganui River\u2014and the land subject to that in terms of the course and the flow of Te Awa Tupua\u2014W\u2019anganui River\u2014through Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto lands. So one of the amendments that has been proposed\u2014two of the amendments, clauses 21 and 22\u2014is just indicating that ownership of certain Crown-owned parts of the bed of the W\u2019anganui River, including its tributaries, be transferred to Te Awa Tupua, which is the recognised legal personification of the river, and the representatives of that\u2014two are appointed our Te Pou Tupua, who are the human face in the representation, and, as is often the case, we whakapapa to many who were involved in the course of history and the course and flow of the stories that go with this. So the two Te Pou Tupua of W\u2019anganui are my cousins, and, in fact, my aunties\u2014cousins intergenerational. We are of similar age: Keria Ponga and Turama Hawira. Prior to Keria\u2019s appointment, it was Dame Tariana Turia\u2014whanaunga. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003ESo what I\u2019m stressing is the importance of the relationships, the interconnectivity, and the fact that we feel and we acknowledge the importance of that. So the two Te Pou Tupua\u2014Keria and Turama\u2014will assume the landowner functions on behalf of Te Awa Tupua and uri of W\u2019anganui. They are landowner functions for the beds of these tributaries of where the river courses through the lands of Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto. When I saw that provision within the bill, I was somewhat concerned to ensure that Te Arawhiti\u2014our officials\u2014had engaged to explain what that means and the onus and the burden of responsibility that comes with these positions. We\u2019ve been advised that that has been appropriately addressed, and the responsibility will be carried by Te Pou Tupua\u2014importantly\u2014of the relationship and association with Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s so much to cover in the course of these debates in such a short time. That\u2019s the benefit of this being shared with other colleagues who will stand to address the House. The bill is detailed thoroughly, and when we have the privilege to speak at the third reading, many of us will address significant portions of that. I have a tendency to always come back to the acknowledgment of the Crown and the apology in terms of the history, the imposition of the wrong, and the injustices that have occurred there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EI\u2019m just going to share too with Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto that before I stood to take my call, my phone buzzed, and, of course, we don\u2019t take phone calls in the House. I flicked it open to see that it was a phone number from \u014Ctorohanga, so I\u2019m sensing that it was somebody from your people, your regions, trying to make contact with me, and I will attend to that at another time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EAlso, as I stand, I\u2019m adorned here with a piece of jewellery, and, just to share, this is a piece of jewellery designed and created by Tania Tupu, who is based in Raglan. What is inscribed or positioned on it is a heitiki with a heavy Crown weighted on its head. I share that because, as M\u0101ori, when we stand in this House now in our role and capacity as Crown agents, we feel the burden and the weight that goes with this responsibility, and I acknowledge the Hon Nanaia Mahuta\u2014Minister\u2014the weight and the burden that we carry of generations before and the privilege that we have to stand today. But it is I, as a Crown agent, who acknowledges Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto in endorsing and commending the bill to the House. Kia ora, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u002212de6700d24a425c8842eb266e7b0e90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002212de6700d24a425c8842eb266e7b0e90\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Minister for M\u0101ori Development):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, tuahine, m\u014D t\u014D k\u014Drero, m\u014D t\u014D tautoko ki t\u0113nei pire i t\u0113nei w\u0101. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EKoutou Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto tae mai nei i t\u0113nei w\u0101 i whakarangatira i a m\u0101tou, ng\u0101 mihi ki a koutou. Kei te tino waimarie m\u0101tou i te mea kei konei koutou ki te whakah\u014Dnore, ki te tautoko i t\u0113nei pire. Ki a koutou ng\u0101 rangatira, Tom, Uncle Tiwha, mihi ana ki a k\u014Drua i \u0101rahi i te kaupapa mai i te t\u012Bmata. N\u014D reira, koutou katoa i tae mai nei i t\u0113nei w\u0101, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, \u0101 t\u0113n\u0101 an\u014D t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E[I acknowledge you, my friend, for what you have said and for supporting this bill at this time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ENg\u0101ti Maniapoto, we are honoured to have your presence here at this time, we acknowledge you. We are very lucky that you are here to honour and to support this bill. To the leaders, Tom, Uncle Tiwha, who have lead this matter from the beginning, I acknowledge you. To all that are present at this time, I extend my greetings to you all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EJust acknowledging that k\u014Drero from our previous speaker Harete Hipango. Very important some of that k\u014Drero, particularly in terms of tautoko, I think, for our chief negotiator, who I\u2019m sitting by\u2014Minister Mahuta\u2014who shepherded this kaupapa all the way through, right from the start. It was a terrific job that she did through the different processes, and I want to mihi to her, first of all, in terms of some of the women who have championed this. It\u2019s not an easy world in Te Ao M\u0101ori for some of our women who are leading some of the kaupapa, and they\u2019re coming to the fore, so I mihi to her.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI mihi to Bella Takiari-Brame too, for her mahi. She\u2019s one of our people who we are investing in. We\u2019ve got her on some of the boards now. We have her on the ACC board, and we need more and more M\u0101ori women coming through. So I just wanted to acknowledge some of them today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI also want to acknowledge one of my kuia who died in our wh\u0101nau. She was the last of the Batley wh\u0101nau, my Auntie Kath\u2014Kathleen Te Whare. She was 98, and she was the last of the Batley siblings of Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto and Ng\u0101ti Tama heritage. You know, Tom, she wasn\u2019t k\u0101ore ia he matatau i te reo. Engari he nui tana mahi i runga i te marae [she was not proficient in the M\u0101ori language. However, she did a lot of work on the marae]. She was the backbone and helped at Maniaroa Marae. She was part of a wh\u0101nau of 15 who were key in the building of Maniaroa, and we laid her to rest about a month ago. She was proudly Maniapoto and was one of those unsung kuia who were always there, and we remember Auntie Kath well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ESo I want to mihi to our women who have been such a big part of things. To yourself, Tom Roa, Uncle Tiwha Bell\u2014we wouldn\u2019t be where we are today without your mahi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ECan I say today, I was listening to our chair, T\u0101mati Coffey, and it is a reminder of the problems we have as M\u0101ori MPs\u2014the process that we have to go through. It doesn\u2019t matter what side you\u2019re on as we traverse this process, where we have friends and wh\u0101nau who will come up and oppose us, and, like our people in the audience, I\u2019m sure they have been approached. I\u2019ve been approached by different whanaunga and friends, and some are all there and some are a bit crackpot\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c488846ad4954d529a5ea517a565be41\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280607979f7e54272a94deb86f555e81a\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014well, we know this, eh; it\u2019s just a fact\u2014and you think, \u201COh God, we\u2019ve just got to get on with the mahi. We\u2019ve just got to do the business.\u201D I know how hard it is on the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, having been one of the chairs of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee many years ago. I was thinking about it and, on first look, you look at the people who oppose it and you think \u201COh, there\u2019s all these people against\u2014against\u2014us.\u201D, but that\u2019s just the nature of the beast. We also know there\u2019s a huge amount of people who tautoko, but they don\u2019t necessarily come up at select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EBut I want to mihi to our chairman, T\u0101mati Coffey. He\u2019s been doing a terrific job, because he has. If you don\u2019t know this process, you don\u2019t know how difficult it is. I was thinking about it when he was chairing the Ng\u0101ti Rangitihi process, and the biggest opposition he got in the process in terms of the bill was from my wife, who absolutely opposes the settlement. It made it a little bit tricky for myself, of course\u2014made it a little bit tricky for myself. My wife and her sister, I think, were the biggest opposition\u2014weren\u2019t they, T\u0101mati?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8af4924909d47b6bd98507801d5f200\u0022\u003ET\u0101mati Coffey\u003C/span\u003E: My auntie.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226444fb693ac64ba6a967d17eaccb56c8\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes\u2014poor old T\u0101mati. He\u2019d come up for some tautoko; I made sure I wasn\u2019t around the place. But these are the difficulties we have. I\u2019m not going to tell my wife, who was a Treaty lecturer for 15 years, the history and the background of the bill. She could give you every reason, and if you read her you\u2019d just about support her, but I couldn\u2019t go down that track. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EThese are the things that\u2014this is not an easy process, and what I ask today is if there\u2019s another one, please tell me, because what we have is what we have. So sometimes you have to say, \u201CYes, we hear you. But, no, we\u2019re getting on with the job.\u201D, and that\u2019s what we\u2019re doing here with this particular process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ELook, let\u2019s not kid ourselves\u2014let\u2019s not kid ourselves. There are some good reasons that come from people who oppose the bill. This is not perfect; you know, the settlement process has never been perfect. It was designed by National and supported by Labour, but until we get a better one\u2014until we get a perfect one\u2014we have to deal with the cards that we\u2019ve been dealt. That\u2019s why I mihi to our select committee for being reasonable, for showing our people respect, and for always saying to our people that \u201CEven though k\u0101ore koutou e whakaae [you don\u2019t agree], and we acknowledge you and we acknowledge your mana, there\u2019s a bigger purpose here.\u201D The bigger purpose is that our people have had so little that we have to grab what\u2019s in front of us, sometimes, and that\u2019s the reality in terms of the process. If we wait for the perfect process, M\u0101ori people will be waiting for ever and a day\u2014we\u2019ll be waiting for, for ever and a day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ESo we work very collegially with our mates on the other side, because before we came to Parliament, many of us had worked in Te Ao M\u0101ori together, so we know that we have to find a way forward so that our people can see the benefits and feel the benefits and get the opportunities they deserve. Even though it\u2019s on a p\u016Btea that is probably worth 2 percent of what the settlement was worth\u2014right?\u2014we all know about the economic benefits. We all know that our people could have put up 10 times\u2014we all acknowledge they could have put up 10 times what the final settlements are. We have to do a deal for the benefit of everyone. That\u2019s why I congratulate our chair, our committee, and all members of the committee on both sides\u2014Government and National\u2014for understanding what the final goal is, and the final goal has to be opportunity for our people. So well done to the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t want to say too much else today. I want to say we\u2019ll have a really good k\u014Drero in the third reading\u2014I think we will have a celebration. But I just want to mihi to our committee, all our members who have contributed, and our whanaunga who have come here today to support a really important process. E mihi ana ki a koutou. T\u0113n\u0101 an\u014D t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022923d958b13564e70985112b11e0baac6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022923d958b13564e70985112b11e0baac6\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te Pika. Te manako nui he pai katoa ng\u0101 \u0101huatanga ki t\u014D Willie Jackson whare i te r\u0101 nei, i te mutunga o t\u0113nei ker\u0113me whakataunga. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EHeoi an\u014D, e mihi ana ki te Whare. T\u0101kiri ko te ata, he manu koror\u012B, he manu koror\u0101, he manu i ahu mai he reo n\u014D tuawhakarere. Ko t\u014Dna reo kia mana an\u014D t\u0113nei mea Te Tiriti o Waitangi, t\u014Dna aronga o te w\u0101hanga tuarua te tino rangatiratanga o t\u014D t\u0101tou nei ao M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003ETe tuatahi me mihi atu ki a Ng\u0101ti Manipoto ka tika. Te \u0101hua nei kei runga, kei te n\u0101 reira e mihi ana ki a koutou. N\u0101 koutou an\u014D t\u0113nei pire. E mihi ana ki t\u014D koutou nei m\u0101ia kia oti ai t\u0113nei tukanga pire. Kei te hoki ng\u0101 whakaaro ki t\u0113r\u0101 o ng\u0101 whakatauk\u012B, n\u0101 koutou, n\u0101 t\u014D koutou nei rohe. I a au e rongo ana kua whakapau te toru tekau ng\u0101 tau kia tae t\u0113nei pire ki t\u0113nei w\u0101hanga, ko t\u0113nei whakatauk\u012B i p\u016Bp\u016B ake ki taku hinengaro, ar\u0101, \u201CKia mau ki t\u0113n\u0101, kia mau an\u014D ki te kawau m\u0101r\u014D! Whanake ake, whanake ake, whanake ake.\u201D Ko koutou an\u014D t\u0113r\u0101 ki roto i ng\u0101 toru tekau ng\u0101 tau i kaha te para te hurarahi kia tae an\u014D ki t\u0113nei w\u0101hanga o te pire. He tauira t\u0113nei o te p\u016Bmautanga o te iwi i roto i ng\u0101 tau maha e whakat\u016Bria ana i roto i ng\u0101 mahi \u014Dhanga i te whakat\u016Bnga ki roto i Te Rohe P\u014Dtae, otir\u0101 Te Nehenehenui, me te tiaki i \u014D koutou nei iwi me \u014Dna tikanga. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EI a au e whakarongo ana ki te roa, te riu o t\u014D koutou nei rohe, ko t\u0113n\u0101 o ng\u0101 t\u0101one rongonui e noho ana, te Te K\u016Biti ki te manawa o t\u014D koutou nei rohe, kei te puku o te ika, kei te tonga o te pae maunga o Rangitoto. Ko te k\u014Drero e whakaponotia ana, ki te rapa te uira ki aua maunga he tohu an\u014D o te mate. N\u0101 reira e k\u014Drerohia t\u0113r\u0101 te wairua o t\u014D koutou nei rohe. Ko te k\u014Drero ko te maha o ng\u0101 papak\u0101inga kei ng\u0101 whanga me ng\u0101 wh\u0101rua p\u0113r\u0101 i a Waip\u0101. E ai ki ng\u0101 k\u014Drero koinei te nohoanga o Waiwaia te taniwha o te iwi. N\u014D reira kua mihi atu ki ng\u0101 taniwha, ng\u0101 tipua huhua o te takiw\u0101. N\u014D reira e mihi ana ki te rohe, te rangi, ki a koutou katoa. Tautoko katoa au i ng\u0101 mihi ki a koutou ng\u0101 kaitakawaenga o t\u014D koutou nei iwi, e kaha te whakapau werawera ki roto i ng\u0101 tau kia ea t\u0113nei ker\u0113me whakataunga. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EI tautoko au i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero i t\u014D m\u0101tou nei tiamana o te Komiti Whiri Take M\u0101ori, a T\u0101mati Coffey me t\u014D m\u0101ngai a Harete Hipango i te mea ehara t\u0113nei tukanga i te tukanga m\u0101m\u0101, ehara t\u0113nei tukanga i te tukanga m\u0101m\u0101. I kaha haere mai ng\u0101 wh\u0101nau me te mea atu ko t\u0113nei mea te whakatau ker\u0113me Tiriti o Waitangi, ehara i te mea i kotahi ai te iwi. Kei te wehewehe noa te iwi. Kei te whawhai te wh\u0101nau me te wh\u0101nau, te teina me te tuakana, te matua k\u0113k\u0113 me te whaea k\u0113k\u0113, t\u0113r\u0101 \u0101huatanga an\u014D. I kite t\u0113r\u0101 \u0101huatanga ki roto i e hia k\u0113 ng\u0101 pire i tau ki mua i te aroaro o te Komiti Whiri ng\u0101 Take M\u0101ori. T\u0113r\u0101 te \u0101hua nei e noho nei m\u0101tou ng\u0101 Mema P\u0101remata e kaha ki te whai ara an\u014D kia h\u0101pai atu i te mana o te katoa ki roto i ng\u0101 tukanga. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EI \u0101ta whakaarohia e te komiti ki ng\u0101 k\u014Drero taunaki a Rereahu, koutou ko Te Ihinga-a-rangi. I kimi kupu tohutohu m\u0101tou mai i ng\u0101 kaitohutohu e p\u0101 ana ki ng\u0101 k\u014Drero t\u016B\u0101papa o \u014D r\u0101tou whakawhitinga k\u014Drero ki te Karauna. Ina koa m\u014D te h\u0101tepe whakamana r\u014Dp\u016B e \u0101rohi ana i \u014D r\u0101tou nei \u0101wangawanga. He \u0101wangawanga an\u014D hoki n\u014Dku ki te whakaaro an\u014D ki ng\u0101 k\u014Drero i tau mai. Engari i tika te k\u014Drero, t\u0113 taea te komiti te mea atu kei t\u0113r\u0101 tangata te mana, ko t\u0113r\u0101 tangata te tuakana r\u0101nei, te teina r\u0101nei. N\u014D reira, ko t\u014D m\u0101tou nei mahi ki roto i ng\u0101 tukanga o t\u0113nei pire ko te whakarongo kia whai ara an\u014D ki roto i te horopaki o te tukanga. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EHeoi, ki a m\u0101tou nei ng\u0101 K\u0101k\u0101riki ko ng\u0101 whakatau ker\u0113me p\u0113nei i a koutou, ehara i te t\u012Bmatanga me te whakamutunga o t\u0113nei mea te piringa o Te Tiriti o Waitangi, e k\u012Bia nei he full and final settlement. K\u0101ore m\u0101tou i te whakaae ki t\u0113r\u0101, i te mea mai r\u0101 an\u014D t\u014D t\u0101tou Tiriti o Waitaingi, i t\u0113r\u0101 atu o ng\u0101 rautau tae noa ki t\u0113nei w\u0101, he oranga i tua atu i t\u0113nei ker\u0113me. He oranga ki roto i ng\u0101 tat\u016Bnga o te ker\u0113me, engari he oranga an\u014D kei tua atu. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EI a au e whakaaro ake an\u014D ki t\u0113r\u0101, i p\u0113nei aku nei whakaaro ki a koutou ng\u0101 kaitono i haramai ki te Komiti Whiri ng\u0101 Take M\u0101ori, ehara i te mea ka oti atu t\u0113nei kaupapa m\u0101 koutou. Kei te kapo au i t\u0113r\u0101 whakatauk\u012B o t\u014D koroua, a Rewi me te mea atu, \u201CP\u0113hea te roa o te whawhai? M\u014D \u0101ke, ake, ake, ake.\u201D T\u0113r\u0101 te manako nui o Te Tiriti o Waitangi i tana w\u0101hanga tuarua. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u0100e, kua tae ki t\u0113nei w\u0101hanga kua riro kia hokia mai \u0113tahi o ng\u0101 rawa, ng\u0101 whenua ki ng\u0101 ringaringa o te iwi. Heoi an\u014D, me kaha koutou katoa ki te whai i \u0113r\u0101 \u0101huatanga katoa kia tino piki ake te tino rangatiratanga o ng\u0101 hap\u016B, i te mea kei reira te k\u014Drero o Te Tiriti o Waitangi e h\u0101pai atu te hap\u016Btanga ki roto i ng\u0101 \u0101huatanga o Te Tiriti o Waitangi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EKa tahuri ake ki te pire. Kua k\u014Drerohia te Whare ng\u0101 \u0101huatanga. Ka whakamana t\u0113nei pire i te whakaaetanga whakaataunga i te waitohu r\u0101 e te karauna me Maniapoto hei whakatau i ng\u0101 ker\u0113me h\u012Btori Tiriti o Waitangi. N\u014D reira, tautoko m\u0101tou ki t\u0113r\u0101. Kei roto i te pire ko t\u0113tahi whakar\u0101popoto o ng\u0101 t\u0101tai k\u014Drero o ng\u0101 ker\u0113me tae atu ki te \u014Dhanga \u0101-tinana, \u0101-ahurea, \u0101-wairua hoki o te iwi. Kei mahue hoki ko ng\u0101 whakaaetanga me te whakap\u0101ha atu ki te t\u0101pae r\u0101 e te Karauna ki a Ng\u0101ti Manipoto. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EKei roto i te pire nei \u0113tahi ritenga e p\u0101 ana ki t\u0113tahi puretumu whakataunga me m\u0101tua whakature kia \u016B ai, tae atu ki ng\u0101 rawa ahurea, ng\u0101 rawa taiao, te puretumu tauhokohoko me \u0113tahi ritenga e p\u0101 ana ki te whakahounga hanganga k\u0101wanatanga me \u0113tahi atu o ng\u0101 take. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EKo t\u0113tahi mea hou i rongo ki roto i t\u0113nei tukanga i mua i te Komiti Whiri Ng\u0101 Take M\u0101ori ko ng\u0101 p\u0101nga o Maniapoto ki te \u0101pure \u014Dhanga r\u0101hui ar\u0101 te exclusive economic zone. I whakaarohia e te komiti ng\u0101 p\u0101nga o te \u0101pure o taua r\u0101hui. N\u014D reira i k\u014Drerohia e te Minita m\u014D t\u0113r\u0101 o ng\u0101 \u0101huatanga ka tae mai ng\u0101 p\u0101nuitanga ki a Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto ka tika kia m\u014Dhio mai m\u0113n\u0101 ka p\u0101nga t\u0113r\u0101 \u0101huatanga o t\u0113r\u0101 ture ki t\u014D r\u0101tou nei \u0101huatanga ki roto i a Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto. He p\u0101nga an\u014D kei roto i te Ture o Te Awa Tupua, n\u014D reira me mihi atu ki t\u014Dku whanaunga n\u014D te awa o Whanganui i mea atu ng\u0101 p\u0101nga o t\u0113r\u0101 ture ki a ia, otir\u0101 ki te awa tupua. E h\u0101ngai ana te r\u0101rangi rua tekau m\u0101 tahi me te r\u0101rangi rua tekau m\u0101 rua ki te whenua e p\u0101nga ana ki te Ture o Te Awa Tupua, n\u0101 reira e pai ana ki te tiro t\u0113r\u0101 \u0101huatanga. Te \u0101hua nei kua whakaae katoatia e \u0113n\u0101 iwi i manako nui, i mana nui ki roto i ng\u0101 \u0101huatanga o Te Awa Tupua. N\u0101 reira he pai ki te tiro t\u0113r\u0101 atu o ng\u0101 \u0101huatanga. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira he nui ng\u0101 piki me ng\u0101 heke o t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 pire engari ko te mea nui, kia kaha koutou. Kia kaha koutou ki te toro atu ng\u0101 ringa ki te hunga k\u0101ore e hiahia t\u0113nei pire. Kia kaha koutou ki te whakaraupapa rautaki i te mea ehara t\u0113nei i te otinga, he t\u012Bmatanga noa iho t\u0113nei haerenga ki t\u014Dku nei whakaaro. Kei te rekereke o te maunga he tihi an\u014D hei pikinga m\u0101 koutou katoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira, Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto, otir\u0101 \u014D koutou nei wh\u0101nau katoa puta noa i Te Rohe P\u014Dtae, Te Nehenehenui, anei an\u014D ng\u0101 K\u0101k\u0101riki e mihi ana ki a koutou, otir\u0101 t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E[Greetings, Mr Speaker. I hope that everything goes well at Willie Jackson\u2019s house today, at the conclusion of this claims settlement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EI also acknowledge the House. The day is dawning, birds on the land, birds on the sea, their call is from ancient times. They call for the Treaty of Waitangi to regain authority, to take heed of article two, the unqualified exercise of chieftainship over our M\u0101ori world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EFirstly, it is appropriate that I acknowledge Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto who are seated above, therefore I acknowledge you. This is your bill. I acknowledge your courage to bring this bill process to completion. I recall the whakatauki from your region. When I heard that it\u2019s taken 30 years for this bill to get to this stage, this whakatauki came to mind, \u201CHold fast to that, hold fast to the swoop of the cormorant!\u201D This has been what you have been doing for the past 30 years, paving the way to get here, to this stage of the bill. This is an example of the steadfastness of the tribe throughout the many years that you have undertaken economic activities in the King Country, in Te Nehenehenui, and also protecting your tribe and your customs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EAs I was listening to the expanse of your territory, that well-known town Te K\u016Biti sits at the heart of your region, in the central North Island, to the south of the Rangitoto mountain range. There is a saying that is understood, if lightning flashes above those mountains, it is a sign of death. This talks about the nature of your region. It is said that most of the settlements are around the harbours and in the valleys, such as Waip\u0101. According to tradition this is the home of Waiwaia the taniwha of the iwi. I acknowledge the many taniwha and tipua of the region. I acknowledge the region, today, and I acknowledge you all. I absolutely support the acknowledgements to you, the mediators of your iwi, who have worked hard over the years to settle this claim. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EI support what the chairman of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, T\u0101mati Coffey, said, as well as your representative, Harete Hipango, because this is not an easy process. The families have come in force to say that this claim settlements process is not something that has united the tribe. The iwi has been split. Families are fighting, older and younger generations are fighting, uncles and aunts are fighting alike. We\u2019ve seen this happen through the many bills that have come before the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee. These are the predicaments we find ourselves in as members of Parliament who are actively working to find other ways to enhance everyone\u2019s prestige in these processes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EThe committee has carefully considered the evidence of Rereahu and Te Ihinga-a-rangi. We sought guidance from the advisors in relation to the pre-negotiation communications with the Crown, particularly regarding the procedure of mandating groups who are investigating their concerns, because I also have concerns, if I was to consider the information that was presented. However, what was said was correct; the committee is not able to say who has authority, or who is the more or less senior. So our job, through the process of this bill, is to listen so that we can pursue other avenues in the context of the process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003ESo, to the Green Party: the settlement claims such as yours are not the beginning and end of the relationship with the Treaty of Waitangi, said to be full and final settlement. We don\u2019t agree with that because since former times, from the 19th century up until now, our Treaty of Waitangi has given other relief outside of this claim. There is relief in the resolutions within the claim, however there are other benefits outside of this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EAs I was thinking about that, this is what I thought about your applicants who came to the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, this won\u2019t be resolved for you. To quote your ancestor, Rewi, \u201CHow long will we fight? For ever and ever.\u201D This is the great desire within the second article of the Treaty of Waitangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EWe have come to this stage: what\u2019s left is to return some of the resources and lands back into iwi hands. Nevertheless, you should all be strong in pursuing these things in order to build the autonomy of the subtribes because the Treaty of Waitangi says it will support the autonomy of subtribes within matters of the Treaty of Waitangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EI turn now to the bill. The House has spoken about the matters. This bill will give effect to the settlement agreement once signed by the Crown and Maniapoto to settle the historical Treaty of Waitangi Claims. We support this. In the bill is a summary of the history of the claims including the physical, cultural and spiritual economy of the tribe, not to forget the agreements and the apology to be offered by the Crown to Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EIn this bill are provisions for settlement redress that must be enacted so that is fixed, including the cultural and environmental assets, commercial redress and provisions for revising the governance structure and other issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003ESomething new that I heard in this process before the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee were the interests of Maniapoto in the exclusive economic zone. The committee considered the effects of that exclusive zone. The Minister therefore spoke about how this will affect Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto, as they should know if that legislation will affect the situation in Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto. There are also connections with the Whanganui Settlement Claims Act, therefore I acknowledge my kinsman from the Whanganui River who explained the effects of that legislation on him and the river. Sections 21 and 22 pertain to the land affected by the Whanganui Settlement Claims Act, so it was beneficial to look at that aspect. It seems that those iwi that were ambitious and influential through the Whanganui Settlement Claims proceedings, have agreed entirely. It was good to look at that other aspect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EAccordingly, this bill has many ups and downs, but the most important thing is that you are resolute. I encourage you to extend your hand to those that oppose this bill. I encourage you to put in place strategies, because this is not the end, this journey is just the beginning, in my opinion. At the foot of the mountain is yet another peak that you all must climb.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003ETo finish, Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto and all your kin throughout the King Country, Te Nehenehenui, again, the Greens acknowledge you, and also acknowledge one and all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u00224179b700c11d400ea9fe445a7bab5626\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224179b700c11d400ea9fe445a7bab5626\u0022\u003EKAREN CHHOUR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on behalf of ACT in support of this, the Maniapoto Claims Settlement Bill. We believe that when people are wronged, that it should be righted, and it should acknowledged when people are wronged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EI can\u2019t stand here and claim to understand the whole settlement process, because I haven\u2019t been involved in one myself. But what I can do is speak to people who sometimes sit there and say, \u201CWhat\u2019s the point of these settlements? You know, it\u2019s in the past. Why do we keep dragging this through the settlement process?\u201D I was reading through this, and some of the points that are made are actually very pertinent so that we don\u2019t repeat history.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003ESo I was reading and I was wondering what happened. I saw the Crown did not uphold its promises between 1890 and 1905, and M\u0101ori lost ownership of more than 250,000 hectares of land, or one-third of their district. Now, let\u2019s just bring that into this time and think about it: if you\u2019re a family and you own a home and that\u2019s your piece of land, that\u2019s what you call home, and somebody comes along and just takes that from you and your family is now displaced with nowhere to go and with no acknowledgment of that wrong. I think people need to understand that and think about it in that context. What would you do if your family was suddenly displaced through your land being taken in an aggressive manner by the Crown? Would you sit back and say, \u201COh well, so sad. Let\u2019s not worry about that.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge those who are here today who are seeing through this process that has taken a long time. Now, I heard this has taken over 30 years from the beginning of the process\u2014I was still in primary school. When I think about that, that hurts. I was lucky enough to be raised by my grandmother. She may not have spoken to me about stories about land and issues like that, but she spoke of the pain of the things she went through when she was younger, growing up as a M\u0101ori that felt displaced in this world, not really knowing where she belonged in this world. Those stories are important so that we don\u2019t forget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the courage it has taken where this has happened, between 1890 and 1905, and this has been passed down through generation to generation to make sure that this wrong is acknowledged. Now, no money can take away the fact that you\u2019ve been wronged. As victims, I think sometimes the pain that we spend every day fighting, fighting, fighting, and fighting can take it from us, and I hope that the acknowledgement of the wrong helps heal some of that pain and helps with the process of moving forward and seeing a better future for tomorrow for your people and the next generation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003ESo with that, I would just like to commend this bill. I hope that the people of Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto feel that their voices have been heard, feel that their pain has been acknowledged, and, hopefully, understand that we all just want to see a better future for tomorrow for everybody in this country, especially people who have been wronged in the past, and that needs to be acknowledged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u0022b61c304a77d04f5da0d20af289eca124\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b61c304a77d04f5da0d20af289eca124\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Associate Minister for M\u0101ori Development):\u003C/span\u003E Tuia te rangi e t\u016B iho nei. Tuia te papa e takoto nei. Tuia te here tangata. Ka rongo te p\u014D. Ka rongo te ao. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EE mihi ana ki a koutou, Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto i tae \u0101-tinana mai hei whakakanohi r\u0101tou kua wehe atu ar\u0101, ng\u0101 mahuetanga iho. N\u014D reira, t\u0113nei e mihi ana ki a koutou katoa. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E[Fasten the sky above us. Bind the earth below us. Unify the strand of man. Darkness is borne. Daylight is encountered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EI acknowledge you, Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto, who are present today to represent those who have passed on, you are their legacy. I acknowledge you all. Greetings, to you all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EIt gives me great pleasure to be able to make a contribution in the second reading. I want to thank members of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee on the Government side who ceded their time so that I could take this opportunity to offer a few thoughts. I want to also make some acknowledgments, because over the period of time since the agreement in principle signing to now, we\u2019ve lost a number of wh\u0101nau within Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto who made a strong contribution to not only the settlement but actually the right context for the conversations to take place, to ensure that the spirit of those t\u016Bpuna, the original negotiators of the settlement, could be carried through to this day. So I want to recognise them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EI also want to recognise the most current negotiators of the settlement, Glenn Tootill and Keith Ikin, for stewarding through many of the much-needed conversations to materialise what we are debating here in the House, and also the Crown negotiator David Tapsell and his team, because it has not been without effort in terms of making sure that the clarity of purpose has been absolutely consistent, again, from the beginning of this process and right up until the third reading. So thank you all very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EI also want to acknowledge the rangatira who are here in the House. I tried to, I guess, characterise the long journey of negotiation that has taken place, and I had to go back to the 1883 petition\u2014Wahanui\u2019s petition\u2014that he brought to this House. I want to just take a brief moment to read some of that, because in order to understand the long journey of negotiation of Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto to get to this point, you really have to go back to the historical record that has been captured in the deed and in the legislation. With that, I also acknowledge Paul Meredith\u2014who\u2019s here\u2014because he sacrificed his PhD so that we could have a good historical record. If this is going to be your PhD and your legacy, Paul, the clarity of the apology and the historical record will put Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto in good stead to teach history in our schools so that they know who they are and who they were destined to be, and it will be through this historical record.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EBut when I went back to the petition and read some of it, which I will share with you in the House, it went something like this\u2014and I just plead with you for a little\u2014\u201CWe have carefully watched the tendency of the laws which you have enacted from the beginning up to the present day. They all tend to deprive us of the privileges secured to us by the second and third articles of the Treaty of Waitangi, which confined to us the exclusive and undisturbed possession of our lands. We do not see any good in any of the laws which you have enacted affecting our lands when they are brought into operation in adjudicating upon lands before the Native Land Court at Cambridge and other places. All the practices carried on at the Land Courts have become a source of anxiety to us and a burden upon us. Through our ignorance of those laws we have been induced by speculators (land swallowers) and their agents to allow some of our lands to be adjudicated upon so that our lands might be secured to us. But having allowed some of our lands to be adjudicated upon, who is it that became possessed of them? It is true that after the investigations the natives received a certificate of title showing their right to the lands, but through the superior knowledge of the Europeans we accepted foolishly what the lawyers recommended to us by the speculators (land swallowers) thinking that they were to act in our interest, but in reality they were intended to prolong their investigations, thereby increasing the expenses to so great an extent that the natives were unable to defray them, so that they (the speculators) might seize the land,\u201D. And so it goes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003ENow, I read that little excerpt from the petition because it goes on to say that Maniapoto were doubly impacted during the time that the Native Land Court was established, and you will see in pictorial form that there was quick succession of the loss of land to Maniapoto when the Native Land Court was established. But, more than that, when the Land Wars occurred, not only did Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto look after themselves; they looked after people who were made dispossessed in the north from Waikato and in the south from Taranaki. So there was a doubling of the impact on Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto during two successive impacts on many M\u0101ori within that part of the region. It\u2019s all set out in the historical record, but to understand the intricacies of the deed, I think you do have to go back to the historical record.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThere are three aspects of the settlement that I want to speak to. First, there was the matter raised by the member Joseph Mooney in relation to clarification of the interests in the exclusive economic zone (EEZ). Again, the historical context goes back to those early conversations about the domain that Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto had explicitly referenced and expressed. But if the legislation\u2014and, from what I hear, the select committee has considered this\u2014clarifies the purpose and the interests of Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto in the EEZ, it will be a very useful thing, because what it will mean is that it is very clear and express how Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto can reference their interests in this area when it comes to marine biodiversity protection when it comes to other issues that happen in that area, and, if for nothing else, it enables Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto to assert the values which they will consistently assert on land and in the sea. So I think it has been a useful exercise for the select committee to go down that pathway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThere are a couple of other aspects that I think make clear Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto\u2019s intent going forward. Nga Wai o Maniapoto\u2014many of the select committees may or may not have heard that the Nga Wai o Waipa had been settled earlier. The thinking behind Nga Wai o Maniapoto and the natural resource aspects in relation to water have been carried forward into this settlement. I see that as fantastic progression, especially given the challenges in relation to the fresh-water and general water environment now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThirdly, I go back to the matter that Harete Hipango referred to, and that is in relation to Whanganui. I just go back to the relationship element of it. The headwaters running into the Whanganui River come off the Pureora, which is clearly in the Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto area. But if I go back to the rangatira agreement that was at the time, I understand, agreed to in relation to the late Archie Taiaroa and Tiwha Bell, effectively, the conversation went something like this\u2014and forgive me, because I\u2019m paraphrasing it. Between these two rangatira, they both agreed that \u201CI\u2019ll look after your interests in my rohe and you look after my interests in your rohe.\u201D At the end of the day, relationships will underpin the successful implementation of the intent of our t\u016Bpuna but also the intent of Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto to ensure that at the headwaters we have got great care and custodianship of the waters that feed into Whanganui. So I hope that in terms of taonga tuku iho and k\u014Drero tuku iho, the leaders within our respective iwi, we continue to maintain the relationship, because it\u2019s k\u014Drero like that that will ensure that the relationship and a way of working together will actually give essence to the intent of the settlement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EAs for Rereahu, I may spend more time on that in the third reading, but it\u2019s very clear in the settlement that the intention was always to be for the unified purpose of everybody, Rereahu included. So if there is any, I guess, thought from any member in this House that that would be an exclusion of interest in so far as the Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto settlement goes, that is misplaced. Every part of the way, these kaum\u0101tua and those before them maintained that the benefit of any resolution of outcome for Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto would solidify and build the unity of purpose of all of Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto, including Rereahu. The proof of the pudding will be in the practice, but, again, that will always come down to relationships. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EI\u2019m so proud that Minister Little has been able to steward this legislation through to its conclusion in a way that Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto will feel the historical issues have been addressed, and we can move forward into the future. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00220c82966ebb1447268321f6d0f5c795e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c82966ebb1447268321f6d0f5c795e0\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This is a split call. I call Simon O\u2019Connor\u2014five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6e326fd03a84cde9edcc10d35445715\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6e326fd03a84cde9edcc10d35445715\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m actually not going to speak for too long, with the primary purpose being, as we\u2019ve heard in the House and those in the gallery know, you\u2019ve waited 30 years, and having this little P\u0101lagi speak for far too long doesn\u2019t actually help. This is actually a claim settlement that I have followed quite closely, because, amongst other things, my wife whakapapas to Maniapoto, so I\u2019ve read all the documents. I won\u2019t say whether or not I\u2019ve given her advice on the voting or otherwise\u2014that could get me into trouble in a whole lot of ways.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EBut one thing I just want to pull out of this\u2014and look, the document is significant, the bill obviously is significant. But one aspect\u2014I want to stress, there\u2019s only one aspect\u2014is around reparation. So utu or moni whakaea, that\u2019s only a small part of it\u2014the place of reparation. In English, obviously, \u201Creparation\u201D but also, I often think, in Latin for a variety of reasons is \u201Creparatio\u201D, and the original meaning of \u201Creparatio\u201D is to make ready or to begin again. The fundamental challenge here\u2014and I think it was Minister Jackson who touched on it\u2014is that no settlement can ever fully settle or pay back. There\u2019s no way it ever can, I would suggest, even with the best of intentions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESo reparatio says we still have to make ready, and making ready is to start again, start afresh, from both sides, and that\u2019s not from\u2014I don\u2019t speak for the Crown, but from the parliamentary side, that doesn\u2019t mean that we want to cover over what\u2019s happened. Despite any political parliamentary debates, the reparation, that reparatio, that utu, that moni whakaea side comes with a massive opportunity but also, I\u2019d suggest, a massive burden to say that we are going to make ready and start again together, and\u2014to finish on that\u2014I find that a challenge as much to myself to make ready, to make reparation, to be prepared, to start again with all the imperfection that exists. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESo, as I said\u2014and I try to be a politician who\u2019s honest\u2014I said it would be short, so I\u2019ve only taken half the time. There we go\u2014thanks very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u00227c85aec3ea3f4a4c8857433c1308271a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c85aec3ea3f4a4c8857433c1308271a\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E Te M\u0101ngai o te Whare, t\u0113n\u0101 rawa atu ki a koe. Kaupeka ki runga. Kaupeka ki raro. K\u016B\u012B k\u016B\u012B whiti ora e. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EE mihi ana ki a koutou, nau mai, haere mai ki te Whare nei. Mihi ana ki a koe, te kaiurungi o te kaupapa nei, a p\u0101p\u0101 Tiwha, t\u0113n\u0101 rawa atu ki a koe. Ki a koe hoki e te tuahine o Te W\u0101nanga o Aotearoa, Val, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. N\u014D reira e mihi ana ki a koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E[The Speaker of the House, I greet you. Kaupeka above. Kaupeka below. K\u016B\u012B k\u016B\u012B whiti ora e. I acknowledge you, welcome to this House. I acknowledge you, the leader of this matter, Uncle Tiwha, greetings. Greetings also, to you, Val, my friend from Te W\u0101nanga o Aotearoa. I acknowledge you and extend my greetings to all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003ECan I acknowledge you, Matua Tiwha. It\u2019s been a long time since I\u2019ve seen you. I spent a lot of time in my early teens occupying your couch, potentially your pantry and your fridge, down at Te Awa Avenue with my cousins, your namesake, Tiwha, and K\u014Dwhai and Emere. It\u2019s through them that I\u2019ve followed this particular bill, and, as a member of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, you connect back with the wh\u0101nau that you know\u2014their history, their stories, and their whakapapa\u2014and you keep in contact with them as you hear the stories of their wh\u0101nau. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EI acknowledge some of the comments from the Hon Willie Jackson, who acknowledges our wh\u0101nau and some of the complexities, I guess, of how we perceive such bills like this, or such challenges in front of us, and most of all, I guess, some of the hurt and grief that we\u2019ve faced over many, many years until we get to this point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EI opened with a whakatauk\u012B from my home, M\u014Dkai P\u0101tea, Ng\u0101ti Whitikaupeka, which is not too far away from yourselves. We are in the process of our journey of settlement, and it\u2019s a challenging one as you learn more and more about your stories: the hardships, the loss, and the grief that we have experienced, no matter which iwi that you have come from. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003ESo today I stand and I take the place of the M\u0101ori Party, which this space is normally scheduled for, because I want to speak in support of the Maniapoto Claims Settlement Bill as a member of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee and as a member who heard all of the submissions across the way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EThe Maniapoto Claims Settlement Bill gives effect to elements of the Maniapoto deed of settlement signed on 11 November 2021 between the Crown and Maniapoto. The explanatory note to the bill states that the deed provides for the settlement of all historical Treaty of Waitangi claims of Maniapoto against the Crown. The bill aims to address the aspects of the settlement that require this legislation, and this goes a little way\u2014some would say a long way; I would sit in the centre\u2014to acknowledging the loss and the grief and the hurt. But it acknowledges the pain that Maniapoto have faced in the loss of their land, and this seeks to address this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EMy speech today is a very short one just to acknowledge the wh\u0101nau, and to acknowledge this piece of legislation and the settlement that is going before us. But as I listened to those submissions, I encourage all wh\u0101nau to come together at some point to work through the challenges that you experience that is set up, yes, by this process, but also look to the opportunity that redress puts in front of Maniapoto, the opportunity for generations to come for our tamariki mokopuna to set up good education opportunities, good housing opportunities, and, most of all, a future for themselves and Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto. N\u014D reira e mihi ana ki a koutou. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, mauri ora ki a t\u0101tou katoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E[I acknowledge you. Greetings and wellbeing to all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00229ec434a9c81340e4a90a6897ce99bf79\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ec434a9c81340e4a90a6897ce99bf79\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. Ki te Whare e t\u016B nei, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. Ka karanga atu ki te whenua o Te Rohe P\u014Dtae, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa ng\u0101 mema o te iwi o Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou, ng\u0101 mema o t\u0113nei Whare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E[Greetings, Mr Speaker. The House that stands here, I greet you. I call to the lands of the King Country and greet you, the members of Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto iwi. To the members of this House, greetings.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI want to start by acknowledging our guests in the gallery and to say that usually at these second reading speeches for Treaty settlement bills, we all stand up and give very formal speeches. I want you to take it as a sign of absolute and utmost respect for you, and all of your uri who will be watching today, that the members of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee and the Ministers involved in this process are still having an open conversation and coming together and airing the grievance we have heard, airing the differences we have heard, airing the mamae that we have heard in this process. It\u2019s a sign of respect for your process, for your people, and for the depth of hurt in what has gone before the moment today, when we acknowledge this very important milestone in the Treaty settlement process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI also want to acknowledge my colleague the Hon Willie Jackson and the member opposite, Harete Hipango, for their comments about those people who have disagreed with this process. We know, as M\u0101ori and in Te Ao M\u0101ori, that disagreement outside of here is a sign of respect, that we are debating those ideas with each other, and that we are talking more about how not only are these issues effective in law and in our constitutional framework but also to us as people. I know that they both know, and I know that members of this House know, that the Treaty settlement process is hard on the people who go through it and that that mamae that comes out is an important part of that. But I want to give this House a little bit of context about how that has occurred and for Mr Jackson\u2019s comments about why the settlement is not perfect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to step us back and take us through why we haven\u2019t come to a perfect outcome. Without going too far back\u2014Mr Speaker, if you\u2019ll indulge me\u2014I\u2019ll start in 1857, and quote the Chief Judge of Native Land Court. Judge Fenton is often quoted in this House with his pro-colonial positions and his pro-Crown positions, but it\u2019s this quote which I\u2019ll start us with: \u201CNo system of government that the world every saw can be more democratic than that of the Maoris. The chief alone has no power. The whole tribe deliberate on every subject, not only politically on such as are of public interest, but even judicially they hold their \u2018komitis\u2019 on every private quarrel. In ordinary times the vox populi determines every matter, both internal and external. \u2026 no individual enjoys influence or exercises power, unless it originates with the mass and is expressly or tacitly conferred by them.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s important that we start there, because we have come to a context for M\u0101ori society that was inherently democratic, where things were discussed, where there was raru in the open, and where we talked amongst ourselves and then came together as a group before any decision was made. So when the story of Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto and the Crown\u2019s apology begins, we start at the Taranaki Wars, and in this bill, the Crown acknowledges that Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto carefully weighed the justice of the war in Taranaki in 1860 before intervening in the conflict. My colleague the Hon Nanaia Mahuta read that consideration of the conflict, which was careful and which was open and which was openly discussed between not only leaders but also ordinary people. When you look at it like that and you think about the clash of culture that was happening at that time, where land wars were happening over title of land ownership, which simply did not exist in the culture of M\u0101ori at the time, and when you consider the decision-making structures that were being used for people who opposed those land takings, it is no surprise that there is a history in every decade since the 1860s of clash between those tribal structures and Crown and an inability to make decisions that made sense to one another.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe next is the labelling of the Taranaki people and of Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto as rebels, and then followed the Waikato Wars and confiscations. My own t\u012Bpuna took refuge in the lands of Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto, and in this bill the Crown acknowledges of Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto to peace after 1865, when they gave sanctuary to Te Kooti for a number of years after he had agreed to also abandon warfare and to live in peace.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWe have, then, an agreement between the Crown and Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto, and if I\u2019m so lucky to give a third reading speech, I will take you through my longer, more formal speech about what that meant for Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto and the Crown in the years after. But I think what that shows us is that when we have these conversations about why a Treaty settlement individually isn\u2019t perfect\u2014and there are still parties who disagree even at this period in second reading\u2014and where we all around the House acknowledge that people need to come together to find that spirit of kotahitanga, it\u2019s built on these complicated, interwoven strands of more than a century of having the ability to come together and the ability to find kotahitanga undermined. We have that within us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI have hope for this Treaty settlement process, which leads us to a place where we get to start again and we get to come together and to build those bridges, but it really is a heavy expectation, a heavy burden, that now Te Nehenehenui bears. When you hear it from members of this House that you hope we come together, I also hope that you see that as a mark of respect that we respect the work you have done to be able to put yourselves in a position where you can bear that burden of responsibility and of leadership, because it\u2019s not an easy thing when you look at the history of how the Crown has both deliberately and recklessly undermined the ability of an iwi, a hap\u016B, a wh\u0101nau to be able to do that for themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI think as well that there are a few important things in this Treaty settlement which are different and unique and which can be really celebrated as part of that going forward. One has been commented a lot already in this House already, which is the rights in the exclusive economic zone, but I also want to acknowledge the taonga t\u016Bturu protocols in this bill. The select committee did discuss these. One thing that I always get a lot of hope from in Treaty settlement processes is the ability of one entity within a group of people to be able to have responsibility for the claiming, the receiving, the gifting, and the making available taonga t\u016Bturu when they are discovered to the people. That again is a hefty responsibility, when taonga are found, to be able to enjoy them with iwi, and it\u2019s so important in this bill that that has been given effect to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy final comments are just to thank everyone who has come today. To all of the submitters, you\u2019ve made the select committee process vibrant. We\u2019ve had so many really robust debates around the table. It\u2019s been an opportunity for me personally to really understand where my colleagues\u2019\u2014not only National members but also Government members\u2014understandings and postures towards the Treaty settlement process are. Your settlement is a very important and special one, and it\u2019s been a privilege for me to work on it. I thank you for coming here, I thank you for sticking with it, and I\u2019m looking forward to working with you on it in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u0022027a6696f93b46bd9f37bb61b9cdbc1e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022027a6696f93b46bd9f37bb61b9cdbc1e\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a privilege to speak on the Maniapoto Claims Settlement Bill as it nears the end of its second reading. Having spent some time in that area\u2014and I\u2019ll touch on that shortly. It\u2019s a great part of the country. But, growing up in Matamata, I\u2019ve recently been through this process as well and had some great discussions with Ng\u0101ti Hinerangi as they have worked through their settlement process there. When I think about the challenges of going through these sorts of processes, it\u2019s never easy and I don\u2019t think anyone would say that it\u2019s full and complete and satisfactory to all parties. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EIndeed, I think we\u2019ve seen that through the select committee process here as well, with 23 submitters with a range of different views on whether this bill is sufficient, insufficient, or too much\u2014the real spectrum that I think highlights that over time, everyone comes to the table with different views, different priorities, and different expectations. At some point, you have to put a line in the sand and work forward from there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EHaving spent a bit of time in the wonderful rohe of Maniapoto on-farm, chasing sheep around slippery hills, mustering, and hunting, it\u2019s a beautiful part of the country, and I am delighted\u2014I still have family down that way at the moment. When I think about the opportunity and the challenges, as I say, it\u2019s complex over a long period of time, and I think what I love about these sorts of bills is that it enables a springboard to be developed and an opportunity to be created to not put aside everything that\u2019s happened in the past but, of course, to acknowledge it and, as I say, put that line in the sand and then take the opportunity to move forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EWhen I think about that in the context of where to from here, any time there\u2019s a challenge\u2014and we all face challenges in our lives in a whole range of areas. But how we respond to that is really what defines us, more so than the challenge. When we look at the key settlement details here in terms of the apology for historical breaches of the Treaty, an agreed historical account, cultural redress including the vesting of 36 sites of significance, and financial redress of $165 million, these aspects are all part of helping to enable that progression to the next step.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t think anyone would want history to be forgotten, and, indeed, history is an important part of any society in terms of building that understanding of where we\u2019ve come from, where we are now, and indeed what the future might potentially look like. That\u2019s the part that excites me, because we are still in a place where we have massive opportunity as a country\u2014huge potential all around our beautiful country\u2014to do some amazing things, and I think we can rightly be proud of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EManiapoto should rightly be proud of their rohe\u2014the beautiful King Country area that I\u2019ve spent time in\u2014but more broadly, about the potential that\u2019s on the table now. When we look at the opportunity, there is limitless potential, and I think that, for me, is one of the most appealing opportunities. As I say, it\u2019s about how respond, how we move forward, and what the future might look like as we try to create that next journey, and for Maniapoto, that presents a really exciting chance to redefine what the future might look like for their children and their children\u2019s children. That\u2019s an exciting time. For me, with young children, I look at their future, what that might be for them and where they might go, and what they might look back on and say about what we did and how we operated at the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EHistory is always just a snapshot of what was happening at the time. It\u2019s important, and I\u2019m encouraged to see that we\u2019ve been able to get to the point now where there is an agreed historic account, apologies have been made for breaches that occurred, and now we can look to the future with more confidence. As I said, that springboard enables Maniapoto to look at how we can get on with improving and taking that opportunity to explore new ventures, improving the understanding and the education, and taking the opportunity within the broader iwi and across all the different communities within that area as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ESo look, we are very pleased to be able to support this bill, noting, as I mentioned, that of course there\u2019s never a perfect solution. There are always a range of different perspectives on these things, but, ultimately, it\u2019s not so much the challenge that should define us but our response. I look forward to seeing the response of Maniapoto in the years to come as they redefine what I\u2019m sure will be a more positive future for them and their iwi. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022 data-id=\u00226f080ab8474244708420b12acb5d12c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f080ab8474244708420b12acb5d12c6\u0022\u003EANGELA ROBERTS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. Ng\u0101 mihi nui ki a koutou, Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto. Nau mai ki te Whare. It is a very humbling place for me to be, to stand and take the final call on the second reading of the Maniapoto Claims Settlement Bill. Welcome\u2014it is really good to see you here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s all been said, of course, so, again, like everyone else in the House, I wish to acknowledge all of the negotiators. It has been a very hard journey\u2014as it always is, from what I hear\u2014and your strength, your patience, and your grace is what has got us here today and I acknowledge that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EI just want to take a moment to consider something very special that comes from this really difficult process that every settlement process has gone through, and I want to thank you for it. That special taonga that you bring to the House today is your story. It is a unique story\u2014they all are\u2014but that story that you take the time to ensure is clear, is correct, and sets the record straight is so important. The Hon Nanaia Mahuta talked about the detail. She gave some detailed descriptions and explanations which show us and explain the scars that are borne today by your wh\u0101nau and by your whenua, and the impact that this story has had over the years. It\u2019s really, really important for us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EI come to this House from having been a part of the New Zealand education system as a teacher. I taught young people who whakapapa to Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto, I taught young people who whakapapa to settlers, and what you have given to the system, to the teachers, and to those rangatahi is so important and so valuable. The burden that we put on our rangatahi\u2014we talk about opportunity and how wonderful it is going to be that they\u2019re going to look after us in our old age and they\u2019re going to build this incredible future. It will be made slightly lighter, because what you have given is an opportunity for these rangatahi to be clear about how we got to where we are so that they can build a bright future together. Maniapoto will be able to\u2014rightly\u2014have their mana intact and will lead that and show their classmates what they can do to support their self-determination. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EThe history, that detail that is so important to acknowledge, and the disregarding, time and time again\u2014I\u2019m using words from the bill\u2014of solemn promises, not just Te Tiriti but all of those other very solemn commitments that the Crown made and broke time and time again. It\u2019s very humbling to hear, and it\u2019s very, very important for our young people to know very, very clearly that those transgressions through legislation, through war are really important to acknowledge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EI want to just reflect on some of the words in the bill about the acknowledgment about the education system and the scars that are still borne by our system today. It talks in the bill about the attempts in the late 19th and early 20th century to assimilate your people and to beat you if you spoke te reo on the school grounds, and the impact that that has had and that contributed to the loss of identity, the understanding of tikanga and m\u0101tauranga, and, of course, the socio-economic impact on generations down the line. The acknowledgment that the Crown didn\u2019t protect te reo M\u0101ori but actively beat it out of your people\u2014that is something, again, that is actually a very precious lesson for those of us who have been in the education system or who remain there and who have taken up the challenge to change things. Knowing that and having it as a matter of public record, and having the commitment in this House to support you to make redress is going to be really important for teachers in the system as they try their best to build an education system that sees those scars go away. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EThe only other thing I really need to acknowledge today is this. A wise man said to me quite recently, \u201CAs P\u0101keh\u0101, what place do I have in this House? What obligation do I have, on reflection, in this process?\u201D, and he reminded me that my job is to uphold this apology. It will never be real unless it is upheld, and we must ensure that we never again pass legislation in this House that fails to uphold the mana of Ng\u0101ti Maniapoto. We need to make sure that policy in very practical ways\u2014like in our education system\u2014never again fails to uphold your mana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003ESo I just want to just reflect for one final moment that it is about the stories of hope. We\u2019re not there yet, and sometimes we need to find the strength to take those last steps, when I imagine you\u2019re tired. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EI just want to reflect on M\u014Dkau. I haven\u2019t wrestled sheep in your rohe, and I certainly haven\u2019t slept on anyone\u2019s couches or raided their fridges. But I have had the privilege of spending time in M\u014Dkau, on the beaches there, and recently I was up on the marae. I think that\u2019s the best view in the country\u2014there\u2019s nobody from Taranaki here, right? But, you know, you\u2019re up on that marae, and it was the most amazing day. It was a vaccination day for COVID, but the wonderful thing was not just the kai\u2014there was a lot of it\u2014and the bouncy castle, but it was the fact that everyone in the community responded to your leadership. We had farmers\u2014grumpy old farmers\u2014coming from up the road, being brought by their wives to come down to not just get their COVID vaccinations but their flu shots, and that comes from that leadership and the collaboration and the grace with which you are going to forge your way in the future but you are going to allow us to come along that journey with you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003ESo I will close there, and I look forward to the next steps in your journey in this House and beyond. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002203da2763885243d4bb1f3c604ad9d151\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002203da2763885243d4bb1f3c604ad9d151\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for committee stage next sitting day. Kua whakaaetia te Mana Whakaw\u0101 o te Whare kia tuku mai he waiata mai i a koutou o Maniapoto. Otir\u0101 i mua i t\u0113r\u0101 e tika ana kia t\u016B ake au e whakapiri taku mihi ki ng\u0101 mihi kua mihia ki a koutou mai i ahau, t\u014D koutou mema P\u0101remata, i t\u0113nei r\u0101 whakahirahira. N\u014D reira koutou m\u0101, kei a koutou te w\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E[The Speaker of the House has agreed that you, Maniapoto, can sing a waiata. However, before that, it\u2019s only right that I stand and add my acknowledgments to those before me, from me, your member of Parliament, on this important day. The time now is yours.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EWaiata\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8dc98eff32c47bb911cfe1c015f9fac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8dc98eff32c47bb911cfe1c015f9fac\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for further consideration of the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System and Children and Young People\u2019s Commission Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225f720a94675a41eebe2fbe156ced8616\u0022\u003EOversight of Oranga Tamariki System and Children and Young People\u2019s Commission Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002228b5af7744e5465fa18409b9f5fa429f\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224849ad423bc044bab865b0a5a8c246a0\u0022\u003EPart 2  Oversight of Oranga Tamariki system (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002230e9f3084f6c4d87b61eafde9640f01d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002230e9f3084f6c4d87b61eafde9640f01d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to further consideration of the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System and Children and Young People\u2019s Commission Bill. I\u2019ll remind members that they are able to participate remotely. If you are on Zoom and want to take a call, please type \u201Ccall\u201D in the chat. You should also use the chat if you want to raise a point of order. If we receive new tabled amendments, I will advise members so that they can refresh the House papers page to see the new amendment. Finally, it would be helpful for members to ask multiple questions, if they have them, of the member in charge of the bill during their call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EWe are on Part 2. This is the debate on clauses 12 to 42, \u201COversight of Oranga Tamariki system\u201D. I will take the next call on Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7efe96e3d924ff39c3cd6cd65f9b7ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7efe96e3d924ff39c3cd6cd65f9b7ac\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just would like to speak to, in this contribution, Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 215 in my name that seeks to make an amendment to clause 16A, and I specifically want to speak a bit of a context to this, and I\u2019ll acknowledge the author of the report that I\u2019ve mentioned quite extensively in this debate, David King, one of the co-authors to Improving a System When Young Lives are at Stake, who wrote to me with a suggestion for an SOP based on information he had gained through an Official Information Act inquiry, trying to understand the independence that we\u2019re hearing about of this organisation and what it meant for those who were drafting the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EWhat he found out through that Official Information Act inquiry that he received from the Public Service Commission\u2014and I will note that what he received was a draft document. The final document is held by the Ministry of Social Development, who, as he wrote earlier this week, and I will quote, \u201Cis refusing to provide me with any information in a timely manner.\u201D But what we do have in draft form clearly shows that the independence of the monitor is not what we would normally understand by the term \u201Cindependence\u201D. It is \u201Cappropriate independence which allows the monitor to work in a trusted manner with the Minister\u201D. In public sector speak, that means the monitor doesn\u2019t advise or advocate, as the report puts it, in favour of any changes to policy, only improvements to practice within current policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003ENow, this is a really, really critical point for the public, because there are such strong concerns around the practices and the policies of Oranga Tamariki. Since the initial policy work started on this piece of legislation, we\u2019ve had a Waitangi Tribunal hearing, we\u2019ve had a lot more submissions through the royal commission, we\u2019ve had the Children\u2019s Commissioner doing two very in-depth investigative reports, we\u2019ve had the Ombudsman that has also had a really scathing report into the functioning of Oranga Tamariki, and there are very strong views that question whether it can be fixed as it is at the moment. So to hear that this is being set up to provide advice, accepting that we will not move from or challenge the existing policies, actually goes to the heart of our concern of needing to know: can this model be fixed? Many of us, actually, we\u2019re not convinced that it can be fixed in those existing policy settings at the moment. The Waitangi Tribunal very clearly said that, actually, they were on the side of \u201CNo, it can\u2019t.\u201D, and that a M\u0101ori transitional authority needed to be set up to deliver for M\u0101ori, because harm had been caused, and disproportionate harm to M\u0101ori, by the Crown incursion on the rights of tino rangatiratanga over k\u0101inga. That was done through this existing model.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003ESo my SOP 215 makes an amendment to be able to just give us some more confidence that, actually, that monitor will have the ability to critique the Crown policy as well as providing increasing trust for the Government, which we\u2019ve had so much debate and concern about. We\u2019ve heard from the Minister earlier that this amendment isn\u2019t necessary, and I\u2019ve heard that, but this has come from somebody who knows legislation, who knows Government departments, who has said this is a provision that would give us a little bit more confidence that this could possibly have a degree of independence that we could have confidence in. I really encourage the Minister to consider it, because she\u2019s told us she\u2019s doing other things just to give us confidence, even though they\u2019re not really needed. So why not this point?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00225f40747ce36d4e71848d8a3c4c44308d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f40747ce36d4e71848d8a3c4c44308d\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E We\u2019ve discussed this, but I will go into a little bit more detail on this. I know that what the member is seeking is the assurance around independence, and I do understand that. I want to refer the member to clause 16A of Part 2, which is about the duty to act independently, which says \u201CThe Monitor must act independently when (a) carrying out their monitoring function under section 14; and (b) developing tools and monitoring approaches under section 16. (2) A Minister of the Crown must not direct the Monitor to stop carrying out an activity, or prevent the Monitor from carrying out an activity, that the Monitor considers is necessary to enable them to perform or exercise their functions, duties, or powers under this Act.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThe objectives are derived from the functions, so we don\u2019t need to then specify the independence of the objectives. In many ways, it doesn\u2019t make sense, given the strength of provision around the monitor\u2019s requirement to act independently. With regard to the objectives, though, it\u2019s very clear in clause 13(1) that the objectives of the monitor are to carry out objective, impartial, and evidence-based monitoring, and then it goes on. That, paired with the explicit wording in clause 16 of this part, absolutely\u2014absolutely\u2014can provide assurance that the independence is there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5abe819923e4bcbbea72659bfc57575\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5abe819923e4bcbbea72659bfc57575\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I just wonder if the Minister, then, could speak to the information, the points around the information, in the Official Information Act request that indicated that the independence and the monitoring was really meant to be within the scope of existing policy as opposed to critiquing the policy, which is\u2014and this is where the public concern is had. We\u2019ve seen the Children\u2019s Commissioner speak out and challenge the institution and call for radical change because the policy settings are causing our children harm. And this is in our name, right? So we need to know\u2014the public needs to know\u2014that we are going to have somebody to stand up and do that. I know that the Minister might say, \u201CWell, the Children\u2019s Commissioner will still have the ability to advocate.\u201D, but that will be advocated severed from the ability to shape the information that is being monitored\u2014to be able to get the full range of information to be able to have the strongest possible advocacy. That\u2019s a real concern for the public. We\u2019re just not getting that this system is going to enable the truth to be told as opposed to providing a voice that will say how we can make this a little bit better and progress things, which is, I would argue, not in the fundamental interests of our children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd8cfb344b7a4731bacf15d16316ab98\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd8cfb344b7a4731bacf15d16316ab98\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E We\u2019re going down the route about the difference between advocacy and monitoring again. It is important that we have objective monitoring. The Children\u2019s Commission, or the Children and Young People\u2019s Commission, will still have the power to take that information and to use it to advocate. One of the tensions between advocacy and monitoring is that advocacy can shape the monitoring information. It is not, then, objective. We need the advocate to be strong, but we need the monitoring to be objective, to provide the Government, the Children and Young People\u2019s Commission, and also the public the information that they need. The advocate can then take that, and then the advocate can advocate on behalf of the children if they see something that is of concern to them. They can still undertake the level of inquiries that they have to date, too\u2014for instance, the uplifts inquiry that the Children\u2019s Commission in recent years has undertaken. No one is taking that power away. We\u2019re deviating a little bit from exactly what\u2019s in here, but I thought I would give the member a response to her question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u00224997254eddfc46aeb8b185b5c3955ad7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224997254eddfc46aeb8b185b5c3955ad7\u0022\u003EKAREN CHHOUR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Just going back to that Official Information Act request and the report that I was speaking to yesterday, there\u2019s a section in there on the ability to build and maintain the trust and confidence of the public. It states, \u201Cthe ability to build and maintain the trust and confidence of the public, in particular M\u0101ori, it is important to ensure the Monitor\u2019s findings are robust and well informed. If M\u0101ori do not trust or have confidence in the Monitor, it will be difficult for the Monitor to freely engage and present an accurate picture of how the system is impacting on M\u0101ori.\u201D And I think it\u2019s the same for all children: if we don\u2019t have their trust, how can we guarantee that we\u2019re going to get an accurate picture of how the system is working?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EI still don\u2019t think the Minister has presented an argument as to why this process could not be done under the commissioner in its current form. We\u2019ve talked about the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor being under the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) for a while now; how has that worked, has there been any findings on how well that has worked under MSD, and is there any particular reason why that could not have been transported into the children\u2019s ministry not under error?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8f900d5ffa146409397ee0831129e4b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8f900d5ffa146409397ee0831129e4b\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E We really have traversed the form, and I have made it clear in this House that the decisions around form were a Cabinet decision; they are not a matter for this bill, let alone this part of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EWith regards to trust, I have already mentioned that clause 16A in Part 2 clearly outlines the independence that is required of the monitor, and so, without wanting to repeat myself, I can\u2019t further explain it, because I\u2019ve traversed that quite clearly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9ae974a663a480f8c0c9cc3e1e8758c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9ae974a663a480f8c0c9cc3e1e8758c\u0022\u003EWILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022c095ac967542431e857b9e4a63686f6a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c095ac967542431e857b9e4a63686f6a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Adrian Rurawhe)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve listened to this debate and it is getting repetitive in some areas. I won\u2019t accept the closure motion at this stage, but if there\u2019s any new discussion, then now is the time to bring it out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1f9ebd3c3f04583b674f2aff1032bd4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1f9ebd3c3f04583b674f2aff1032bd4\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO (National):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora. Thank you, Mr Chair. I address the committee in speaking to Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 232, which addresses a proposed amendment to clause 14, which is in direct regard to the monitoring of the Oranga Tamariki system. Clause 14: this is where \u201CThe function of the Monitor is to monitor the performance of the Oranga Tamariki system in the context of its interface with other systems.\u201D And subclause (2) is \u201CFor the purposes of subsection (1),\u201D which I have just read, \u201Cthe function includes (without limitation)\u2014\u201D. The proposal, Mr Speaker and Minister, is, as is detailed in SOP 232, clause 14(2)(c), to insert where it says \u201Cassessing outcomes for children, young people, families, and wh\u0101nau, and iwi who receive services or support through the Oranga Tamariki system, and changes in outcomes over time, with particular regard to M\u0101ori children and young people and their wh\u0101nau.\u201D\u2014the request for the proposed amendment is also to include \u201Cdisabled children and young people.\u201D, because it\u2019s well known that disabled children have particular special needs and are often overlooked\u2014and to push to ensure that in this oversight bill, as an amendment, there is no oversight of addressing the particular and special needs of disabled children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EI also call on the invitation that was made earlier to raise multiple issues within the opportunity to stand and address the committee. So an additional matter to SOP 232, which I\u2019ve just spoken to: yesterday, the Minister raised in the Chamber the importance of consultation with children and that had occurred. I\u2019d invite the Minister to respond accordingly that there was a report prepared by her ministry, dated September 2018, titled Insights from Children and Young People that is relevant to the review of independent oversight of Oranga Tamariki and children\u2019s issues. If the Minister would please explain or clarify who SV8 Consulting Ltd are, which was the group that conducted the engagement in July 2018 for the purposes of providing this report back to her ministry, because it\u2019s been reported that they are an \u201Cexpert\u201D group in terms of engagement with children; and why only 29 young people of a total of 1.1 million under-18-year-olds\u2014who make up 24 percent of New Zealand\u2019s population\u2014were consulted and that her ministry deemed that that was sufficient to report a representation of young people\u2019s views under the ambit of the September 2018 report. It\u2019s been challenged and put to the Minister, time and time again, the importance of inclusion of children\u2019s and the young person\u2019s voice within the detail of this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EI addressed the committee yesterday on a proposed SOP to clause 16 that\u2019s been dispensed with, placed aside. The response being \u201CNo need for the particular and specific inclusion of children and young person\u2019s interests.\u201D I invite the Minister to explain, in terms of her ministry\u2019s consultation under \u201Cexpert\u201D consultancy agency SV8, why only 29 children\u2019s views were taken into account when it has been well heard in this Chamber. The representative voice, which the Office of the Children\u2019s Commission engages regularly with\u2014VOYCE - Whakarongo Mai\u2014was not included at any stage whatsoever, and that\u2019s based on the information that they have provided to members in Opposition. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae21603e35b1494c9939a08abe0c0072\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae21603e35b1494c9939a08abe0c0072\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E With respect to the first point raised around the Treaty obligations in monitoring, they are Treaty obligations, and so they don\u2019t extend\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221258563c0a1c44c2b80019c628063d7a\u0022\u003EHarete Hipango\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Thank you. I didn\u2019t address the Minister on any Treaty obligations, sir.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a347243964e4535915066cdd54848f6\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not a point of order. It\u2019s an opinion\u2014you have to sit down\u2014and a debating point. The Minister is addressing it, and so it\u2019s rather disorderly to interrupt the Minister doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022998fa46accbe4b2e8b864729fafdf7e0\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. There was mention of the Treaty obligations with regards to reference to the monitor, and I just want to respond to that member by saying that that would not be the place to make mention of disability, because of the fact that it is specifically about Treaty obligations. The member should know, at Part 3, she will see that there is specific mention around disabled children, and we can certainly traverse that when we get to that. And with regards to consultation, that is not specific to this actual section either. It\u2019s not specific to this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u00224fb790db69c2416b938d3bfab3726cfd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224fb790db69c2416b938d3bfab3726cfd\u0022\u003EWILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u0022de19991ee33341e887403d88c754429b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de19991ee33341e887403d88c754429b\u0022\u003EKAREN CHHOUR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to speak a little bit more about a Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) in my name, SOP 195. It\u2019s in regards to entering facilities. This amendment would grant the commission entry powers to Oranga Tamariki facilities, acting in response to a request or a complaint by or on behalf of a child or young person in order to strengthen its performance as an advocate. Now, I speak to this from the point of view of young people that have said they would like to know that when they are in a situation where they feel that something is not right within a facility\u2014they don\u2019t feel safe or they feel that there is a chance of something going wrong\u2014their advocate would be able to come in and advocate on their behalf.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EI appreciate the Minister has spoken to this and said that authorities should be called in that situation, and, yes, I do agree, but it\u2019s also to do with trust, once again, with young people. They need to know the person coming to them is somebody they can trust. As a young person that has been let down by the system myself\u2014and I\u2019m speaking now not just as an MP but as a victim of this system, and I want my voice heard as well, because I feel that my voice and what I went through is being trounced on in this process also. So as a victim of the system and as a victim of the people that were meant to be there to protect me, that I called and begged for help\u2014they did not help. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EWhat is the incentive to ring those people again who never helped you in the first place? If you\u2019re in a facility and you\u2019re feeling unsafe and they send in the very people that have let you down before instead of a person that you trust will advocate on your behalf, how are we going to get an accurate picture of the safety of these young people within these facilities? Many times we have seen where these facilities have gone wrong, within the media. The commission just even recently, through monitoring and advocacy side by side, found an issue where children were being held in these facilities where they shouldn\u2019t have been, and they advocated for this to change. That just shows having monitoring and advocacy side by side can work. Thank you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218b0b0ff173145fc9dbcda07c98f9dfb\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235bffefb4c43496c892cb37a656f5077\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Jan Logie.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022da805196bb7f4277bf747981efa0c4c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da805196bb7f4277bf747981efa0c4c2\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, sorry, Minister. Thank you, Mr Chair. I feel like I\u2019ve been elevated suddenly. But thank you for this opportunity. I did want to speak a bit more on some of the specifics in my Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 214 and to get the Minister\u2019s response around the particular points. From the position of the Green Party, we don\u2019t think that this bill can be fixed in terms of meeting our Tiriti obligations or giving public confidence, because of the process that\u2019s been followed as well as the lack of independence from the State in terms of the monitoring. But we have put a lot of effort into trying to work out how we could actually strengthen this bill to help us meet the recommendations of the Waitangi Tribunal. So in our SOP 211, we\u2019ve put forward the suggestion that when developing monitoring priorities, work programme, and monitoring approaches, the monitor must ensure that they\u2019ve got the key priority\u2014the need to support improved outcomes for children, young people, particular attention to the need to support improved outcomes for M\u0101ori children, young people. We\u2019ve added, \u201Cand their wh\u0101nau\u201D, and to uphold the rights of M\u0101ori to tino rangatiratanga over k\u0101inga, as guaranteed by Te Tiriti o Waitangi, the Treaty of Waitangi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThis is about trying to get the Crown to be acknowledging the Hauroa report, and those recommendations, of the fact that M\u0101ori do have tino rangatiratanga over k\u0101inga. So, therefore, any child protection system - related legislation really should embed that, because we have not acknowledged that. I know that there\u2019s a view that this is a constitutional issue and therefore the Government can\u2019t go ahead on this. Actually, it\u2019s about our understanding of Te Tiriti o Waitangi and how we embed that in legislation. It needs to be done legislation by legislation, consistent with those rulings, the Greens would argue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI really want to, on that point, call back to some of the submissions that came through from the Hon Dame Tariana Turia, Dame Areta Koopu, Dame Iritana T\u0101whiwhirangi, Merepeka Raukawa-Tait, and Lady Tureiti Moxon, where they were saying this bill creates new oversight, and considers problems and complaints after they\u2019ve occurred. It\u2019s tweaking, it\u2019s talking about maintaining a system, and nothing in this bill gives mana rangatiratanga, and it relegates M\u0101ori to provider level. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThis amendment would help shift that deeply problematic\u2014and, we know, hugely harmful historically\u2014dynamic. We also had that view confirmed by Waikato-Tainui, who had been consulted on this legislation, even though they said that, actually, the consultation did not engage in the content that\u2019s in this legislation. But they said that this bill adds more cost and more administration and more State incursion into the role of iwi\u2014because it increases monitoring of iwi activities as we devolve power\u2014and that is really problematic. We heard that very clearly from the M\u0101ori Women\u2019s Welfare League, as well as other submitters. So this is our attempt to address those concerns that came up in the Social Services and Community Committee, as well as the Waitangi Tribunal\u2019s ruling. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EAnother of the amendments in our SOP is to also put that in for the duty of the Ombudsman\u2014in relation to complaints and investigation\u2014to require them to incorporate tikanga M\u0101ori approaches for their complaints and investigation processes, including the need to have regard to Te Tiriti o Waitangi, the Treaty of Waitangi, and the tikanga of wh\u0101nau, whakapapa, and whanaungatanga. So I really\u2014I really\u2014just can\u2019t understand why our legislation can\u2019t reflect our fundamental constitutional relationship and acknowledge that right of tino rangatiratanga over k\u0101inga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u00227500fe7d23da410195aa5c49376ac584\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227500fe7d23da410195aa5c49376ac584\u0022\u003EWILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225e30edcfefe84810846a46367fc20366\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00228428a3c5b83b47458e84099e0fcb98ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228428a3c5b83b47458e84099e0fcb98ff\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 2 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 209 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228ca77f69597b431eb8e12e5c088ef09e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002240a906195bf343b295e49c0dde079483\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240a906195bf343b295e49c0dde079483\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Jan Logie\u2019s amendment to clause 13 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 211 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThe result corrected after originally being announced as Ayes 85, Noes 33.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022318d90b7253a44288c6711735e21cf3c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022318d90b7253a44288c6711735e21cf3c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Harete Hipango\u2019s amendment to clause 14 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 229 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022acd7f036bcdf45279847470ebc84fcc5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022314c150dc4234636ab772b95dd837a35\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022314c150dc4234636ab772b95dd837a35\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Harete Hipango\u2019s amendment to clause 14 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 232 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022eb900a0630044bd59b11545e0172d23a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022cae9e99cf4634ea5acbfab2519a4eb24\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cae9e99cf4634ea5acbfab2519a4eb24\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Harete Hipango\u2019s amendments to clause 14 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 231 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f21e3edda1ac460e8bb0809c924da079\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 33\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 85\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1c66cbee4624d518f4989d7db12546a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1c66cbee4624d518f4989d7db12546a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Harete Hipango\u2019s amendment to clause 14A set out on Supplementary Order Paper 226 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c7a902f7ad1b4f88bfb71139b46f81a4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 33\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 85\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u002242ab64afd2824976b0f32bda79c913c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242ab64afd2824976b0f32bda79c913c8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Harete Hipango\u2019s amendments to clause 16 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 230 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ffc3265518b74380baf427c863a91480\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0b1165cf21346668b864aa5fc5d1711\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0b1165cf21346668b864aa5fc5d1711\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Jan Logie\u2019s amendment to clause 16A set out on Supplementary Order Paper 215 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b75a6537e67a4114b0dd365255813ea3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022d089a492a56d476ca5a53791603030f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d089a492a56d476ca5a53791603030f0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Jan Logie\u2019s amendments to Part 2 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 214 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225b239f7675964b1daf178faf888e6c50\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3341f0c1fad4d57bed7ef3ab063a6a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3341f0c1fad4d57bed7ef3ab063a6a7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Karen Chhour\u2019s amendments to clause 27 replacing \u201Cor 24\u201D with \u201C24, or 25\u201D, set out on Supplementary Order Paper 188, is out of order as being the same in substance as a previous amendment. The question is that Karen Chhour\u2019s remaining amendment inserting clause 27(ca) set out on Supplementary Order Paper 188 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022339c3b7c8a8a4d78bb714efa17241df7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u002243085b02cf594a6cb52344dd74066618\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243085b02cf594a6cb52344dd74066618\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Karen Chhour\u2019s amendments to clause 34 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 195 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022865343c52da94b5ab4a7497565448ad5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022f52fe9940c20417bb34ff62a086ecd93\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f52fe9940c20417bb34ff62a086ecd93\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. I want to refer to Jan Logie\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 211. I believe the New Zealand National Party voted 33 votes opposed to that. If that\u2019s what the record shows, I seek leave for the National Party\u2019s vote to be changed to 33 votes in favour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00220cbae04545ec408cb6ff4e581799a928\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220cbae04545ec408cb6ff4e581799a928\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There\u2019s no objection. That can be amended. The result is that that is now unanimously agreed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EThe question is that Harete Hipango\u2019s amendments to clause 38 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 225 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022743af9a838574321a445f60cf477e1bf\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 33\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 85\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022f630aa2e84d04717b37f356b545fee30\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f630aa2e84d04717b37f356b545fee30\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Part 2 as amended stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223282322357764a3ca46f96de6729b991\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022af82ee18c7544759ad71c649cb11eff7\u0022\u003EPart 3  Information provisions and other matters\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022733b04ba43bc4b0a96a991f96b357add\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022733b04ba43bc4b0a96a991f96b357add\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 3. The question is that Part 3 stand part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00224fba601ea7f44f589cb29ff7ccf6b121\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224fba601ea7f44f589cb29ff7ccf6b121\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll just offer some brief opening remarks. This part sets out the information provisions and other matters relating to the monitor and the Ombudsman, including the empowering provisions for regulations and review clause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ENotable changes from the Government\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 209 for this part include reducing the time for the review of the Act to three years from five years, clarifying that the monitor can share non-personal information in specific instances to support effective monitoring and reporting, and the insertion of new clause 53A, which places an explicit duty on the monitor to notify a person prescribed by regulations if the monitor becomes aware of harm or abuse. Notable changes recommended by the Social Services and Community Committee include adding a new clause that overrides the Ombudsman\u2019s secrecy obligation in instances where abuse or harm come to the Ombudsman\u2019s attention. I\u2019ll leave it there. Questions? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022 data-id=\u002238640418848e44c2b053a8ca5552fb7e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002238640418848e44c2b053a8ca5552fb7e\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Part 3 is specific to clauses 43 to 57. A question to the Minister in terms of the recent address to the committee and the reduction of the time of the five-year review and reporting on that to three years\u2014again, arguing from a child-centric point of view, and that the whole point of this legislation proposed is to provide an oversight of the systems that are to be critiqued and reviewed as impacting on the children who are in State welfare care. So I acknowledge and I\u2019m pleased that the advice that had been given at select committee\u2014particularly from me around time frames and impact, critically, on children, and how their concept of time is so very different to that of an adult\u2014has finally been taken into account. So I acknowledge the Minister for the reduction in time, but, again, three years is a significant period of time in a child\u2019s life.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EAlthough there\u2019s no formal Supplementary Order Paper on the table, I invite the Minister to take that factor into account. It has been, with some of the time frames. I\u2019m grateful for that, Minister, on behalf of the children\u2014this legislation is framed supposedly in their interests\u2014but, again, I invite the Minister to reflect and consider. Rather than looking at it from an adult, bureaucrat, Minister\u2019s point of view, the whole point of this is time frames as impacts on the children. I\u2019m aware that it takes time in terms of assessing the impact of a system over a period of years, but, again, it needs to be recalibrated in terms of perhaps even looking at an interim report for those initial reviews impacting on children and their lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022152107426f7a4c57b1448b46e47668f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022152107426f7a4c57b1448b46e47668f6\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E I take the points made by the member. The issue is you do need time for a system to be able to embed to be able to report on it correctly or accurately, or to have the information that you need. However, this is a minimum review period as well. We took on board the advice that came from members that are in the Social Services and Community Committee as well as submissions with respect to the redress report that is due next year from the royal commission. We have said that it\u2019s a minimum of three years, because if there is anything that comes out of the royal commission report that may inform potential changes that need to be made to the oversight system, then we will certainly be receptive to that happening, and the legislation will allow for that to happen. There are other reports that I spoke of that will of course be produced at a much more regular rate than this overall review of the system as a whole, and they will be very important for us being able to hold the system to account and to be able to have that transparency and accountability with respect to how it\u2019s working.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9465782c7a74203906d6660a6ade6d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9465782c7a74203906d6660a6ade6d2\u0022\u003EKAREN CHHOUR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Just on the note of reviewing the bill\u2014and I appreciate that it\u2019s been brought down to three years\u2014I just thought it could have gone a little bit further, to give some assurances to those who have done the most courageous thing that I can think of: put themselves out there and speak to the royal commission review about the atrocities that they went through growing up, either in care or how they were let down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve got Supplementary Order Paper 189, that looks to amend clause 57 and make it so that the review must commence no later than six months after the delivery to the Minister of the report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in Care, and it must be completed no later than 12 months after its commencement. The reason for this is it would just give assurances that these people haven\u2019t spent the last few years trying to advocate for change and find that it was just pointless because the Government has already pre-empted what they feel needed to be changed\u2014and there\u2019s a fear out there that the royal inquiry into abuse in care may just not be worth the paper it\u2019s written on if it\u2019s not acknowledged. So to acknowledge those who have been courageous enough to come out and speak to those atrocities and deal with that trauma again, I just want the assurance that we\u2019re going to actually review it and take into account what this inquiry has said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022523a834ede3741ffaec753553cb560a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022523a834ede3741ffaec753553cb560a3\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Again, it\u2019s just to restate that it\u2019s a minimum of three years from the commencement date of the bill, and so therefore it can be done earlier if there is something significant that could impact or influence the legislation. I\u2019ll just remind the member that there may be things that come out of the royal commission\u2019s redress report that are not specific to informing any changes to the legislation but may actually have an impact on the operations that exist within the system. I mean, I think that\u2019s important to note, because then, actually, the system will have the opportunity to take on board those things that inform operational changes, and then, potentially moving forward, when we get to the review period, there\u2019ll be an opportunity to check that those things were incorporated into the practice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u002270057a0a3b284bdb8940737c97f26962\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270057a0a3b284bdb8940737c97f26962\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. It might be the first time in my life that I\u2019ve spoken in support of an ACT Party Supplementary Order Paper, but I do want to on this occasion, and part of it is around\u2014I understand what the Minister is saying on the three years. Our preference, along with all of the submitters and a huge number of other advocates, is that this legislation would have been delayed until the royal commission reported, because, in our view, that is the best way to pay respect to the people who are going through that process of historical as well as, in some instances, current experiences of abuse. While I hear the Minister saying that three years is a minimum and so it might happen earlier, it will be up to the Government of the time, and if we\u2019re looking at restoring trust, then, actually, that degree of flexibility is not a clear commitment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EKaren Chhour\u2019s amendment directly links it to the royal commission and tells them that this House is united in wanting to ensure that, actually, this system is addressing their experiences. I think that matters because it is a huge undertaking. It took years to get commitment for this royal commission, and I know there\u2019s concern coming through from the Royal Commission Forum and others that the Government isn\u2019t as engaged as it should be in following and knowing what\u2019s happening in the commission. It is a very real concern that there\u2019s a disconnect, and this would be one of our ways of things that we could do to help restore a sense of connection to that work and to honour those people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI do want to acknowledge the Government, though, for the change around notifying abuse when it\u2019s found. That is something that did come through really strongly in select committee and it is important, from my perspective, because it did seem as if that could have been deeply problematic for people to go in in their monitoring duties and discover abuse, but there not being any obligation for them to report that. So we are pleased with that change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI will also just briefly in this contribution\u2014and there isn\u2019t, I think, much more. My further comments will be reserved for Part 5. But at this point it\u2019s around our amendment to clause 57 around the review of the Act, and we\u2019re looking to add a new provision to that to ensure that the monitor is upholding tino rangatiratanga over k\u0101inga. Again, it links back to the point I made in the last part about the legislation reinforcing the findings of the Waitangi Tribunal and ensuring that our whole system is working towards recognising that right, which is so blatantly and consistently trampled on. So that was my contribution and question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce7a1f54bf3146ec8b985514d096f36d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce7a1f54bf3146ec8b985514d096f36d\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Again, Minister, speaking to Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 209, your SOP, which is addressing clause 57 and the amendment there and the reduction of time, and speaking to Ms Chhour\u2019s SOP in relation to that, I just refer the Minister to what the core principles of this Act are as detailed specifically in clause 5. Clause 5, \u201CPrinciples\u201D, states \u201CA person who performs a function or duty or exercises a power under the Act must have regard to\u2014\u201D, and one of your proposed amendments was the inclusion of \u201Cthe best interests of children and young people\u201D and \u201Cthe perspectives of children and young people.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, with the amendment, you propose a reduction of the time from five years to three years. At a minimum you\u2019ve emphasised again that there is a contradiction in terms of perspective of children and young people in the concept of time frames and the impact that the review of this Act and also the review of the operation and effectiveness of the Act and the monitor under this Act will have on the children. So, Minister, the reduction of time from five years to three years in my submission to this committee on behalf of children, having worked with them for many years and that concept of time, although it may be amenable to the State, the Government sector, the system, in terms of review\u2014and taking heed of Ms Chhour\u2019s proposed amendment to clause 57, a commencement no later than six months after the delivery of the royal commission of inquiry\u2014is very, very important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EThe whole point of this proposed legislation is about an oversight, not overlooking the impact of this on our children who are in State welfare care but having the insight\u2014not the oversight, the insight\u2014to their perspective of time frames and the impact that a review at such a significant expended period\u2014a minimum, as you say, of three years\u2014is a considerable element, in part, of a child\u2019s life. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EThe whole point of this bill, as the Government and you, Minister, have declared is about what is going to provide for the best interests of children and young people\u2014and you\u2019ve acknowledged that by way of an amendment to the core principles in clause 5\u2014and the perspectives of children and young people. The time frame is a considerable insight into their lives. Don\u2019t dispense with and dismiss that with an oversight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u00220da2b1bdc219411fb2109a6209493795\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220da2b1bdc219411fb2109a6209493795\u0022\u003EBARBARA EDMONDS (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u002270a2ee7784294e42bb67bd13898ea746\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270a2ee7784294e42bb67bd13898ea746\u0022\u003EKAREN CHHOUR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just want to talk about collecting information from a child or a young person. It\u2019s clause 46, and it just talks about complying with the requirements of the monitor\u2019s code of ethics in respect to engaging with children and young people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EAll through this bill, it says it\u2019s all about engaging with children and young people in a respectful and meaningful way, but what does this actually mean? And if our children don\u2019t trust the monitor that\u2019s trying to collect this information and children just will not give their consent and caregivers will not give their consent, how are we going to collect relevant information, and how would the monitor go about requiring that consent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u002259c8dfbac0684dc19ebb0802b5439379\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259c8dfbac0684dc19ebb0802b5439379\u0022\u003EBARBARA EDMONDS (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u0022132dedaf0f424d93b3f9e49e94ac6e06\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022132dedaf0f424d93b3f9e49e94ac6e06\u0022\u003EKAREN CHHOUR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m also wanting to look at the way the monitor will share or disclose this information, and what obligation the monitor has in sharing the information with the children\u2019s commission. I\u2019m just wondering, is it all their reports and information\u2014and I know we\u2019ve discussed this\u2014or is it what they feel that the children\u2019s commission should know? And if they are coming across information that should be advocated about but under the clause they\u2019re having to uphold the good name of Oranga Tamariki, is there a conflict there? If they hand this information over, it may not be upholding the good name of Oranga Tamariki. That was just something that submitters did talk about. It may not be an issue, but I just wanted it clarified.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0a1a991748a4453b9971d4f288f553b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0a1a991748a4453b9971d4f288f553b\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d1937fa59d004f30bd624cc9281a55a3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u002204a309e04418419aa5e76442d3525dd1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204a309e04418419aa5e76442d3525dd1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 3 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 209 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222799e8e4c9e640c39527127f932f1040\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 85\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 33\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00222ee9d0301645457da7c9fb1362048fe3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ee9d0301645457da7c9fb1362048fe3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Karen Chhour\u2019s amendment to clause 57 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 189 is out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee. The question is that Jan Logie\u2019s amendments to clause 57 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 214 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226d383415ec994f819aa3ff7249de8997\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00222a1a693fe2164f369fefc21edcf4b2f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a1a693fe2164f369fefc21edcf4b2f1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Part 3 as amended stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221ebc425e4b894d54806a49ea52633379\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 3 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022dac93f007337423e8d83703befa53ba5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dac93f007337423e8d83703befa53ba5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 4. The question is that Part 4 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002227095f7d5a86448f99401831b4c0fe54\u0022\u003EPart 4  Amendments to other legislation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022af18c65478814a1aa75702032048568a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af18c65478814a1aa75702032048568a\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Brief remarks just to lead out. This part relates to the monitor and Ombudsmen and makes necessary amendments to other legislation, including the Official Information Act, the Ombudsmen Act, the Oranga Tamariki Act, and secondary legislation. This part has not been amended by the Government Supplementary Order Paper. The notable amendment recommended by the Social Services and Community Committee was to remove the Children\u2019s Commissioner from the list of persons who have access to specific court document. As the commissioner will no longer have an investigation function, access to these documents are not required, however, can be obtained if necessary through the standard process of requesting them from the court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u002258235ba0f03a4be4bc607482d3af80f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258235ba0f03a4be4bc607482d3af80f3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment to Part 4 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 209 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221eae07f76b834094ba1bf5b2b561ab8d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 85\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 33\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002262640cad6385422ebb9669b00416dc45\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 4 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 4 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc8820a184d244e78395c56e13b57902\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc8820a184d244e78395c56e13b57902\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 5. The question is that Part 5 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022936a1c248d2243f2a100c79b735824ad\u0022\u003EPart 5  Children and Young People\u2019s Commission\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00227fc47eb6442e433c9458c86f80175a3b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227fc47eb6442e433c9458c86f80175a3b\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E This part sets out all matters related to the Children and Young People\u2019s Commission. This includes the establishment of the commission; all functions, duties, and powers; and review of the Act. The notable change from the Government Supplementary Order Paper is reducing the time for that. The review of the Act must commence within three years\u2014a change from five years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ENotable changes that were recommended by select committee include providing for a Chief Children\u2019s Commissioner, explicitly providing for the commission to report to the Prime Minister, and requiring members of the board of the commission to have knowledge and understanding of the Treaty of Waitangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf556f973a7c4fcc9379033c9ec605f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf556f973a7c4fcc9379033c9ec605f2\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. There are a few points to make in relation to this part of the bill, and I certainly will start by acknowledging the change that was proposed from the Social Services and Community Committee to have a chief commissioner put into the legislation. We\u2019ve been told that it was possible anyway, but to actually ensure that there will be at all times a known face\u2014at least one\u2014for this organisation and to be able to hold that voice and make that connection to our young people and our children is a really important change as far as it goes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI would say that I have been disappointed with these changes, which were not part of the primary consultation. While I understand there has been some consultation, the consultation with young people, to my knowledge, around this part of the bill has been very limited. The reality is that the Office of the Children\u2019s Commissioner is their office\u2014it\u2019s the office of children and tamariki around this country\u2014and they need to have confidence in that institution. I would have thought that any changes of this nature really should have been from a quite considerable consultation and a deep consultation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI know that there were issues that came up at one point in discussion around diversity which possibly led to the idea of a board, and that\u2019s absolutely something that the Greens are keen on, but this was not a proposal that was tested against other proposals. Really, it was hearing some ideas\u2014or this is how it\u2019s certainly come across to me\u2014and then coming up with \u201CThis is a solution.\u201D, as opposed to really working through with young people on what they wanted their organisation and their voice to be looking like. So on that foundation alone, the Green Party don\u2019t support these changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThere were very strong concerns raised at select committee around this, and I\u2019ll raise just a couple. One from Starship Hospital during the select committee was saying that they \u201Cfelt the change would stop any efforts to fix the system, which would largely be felt by wh\u0101nau M\u0101ori.\u201D, and the \u201CSeparation of these functions will disperse relevant information and processes and will create more layers of bureaucracy, delaying outcomes for tangata whenua/mana whenua, and their tamariki.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EJudge Eivers and other Children\u2019s Commissioners\u2014who know the workings of these agencies and the possibility of them, as opposed to the limitations that they\u2019ve experienced through what I would describe as starvation funding for many years\u2014have opposed these changes really strongly, and I do want to link this to the point that there were many other possible solutions. One of them could have been just\u2014and I\u2019m recognising that none of us are standing here and saying that, actually, we didn\u2019t want to strengthen advocacy and the voice and monitoring for children. Nobody in this House or in the community is saying that. But people are saying that they wanted it to be independent and that there was trust in the Children\u2019s Commissioner, whereas there isn\u2019t trust in our other Government agencies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThere is a concern, so that is a clear point, but also funding\u2014they\u2019re running on $3 million a year. So of course the detail of monitoring for all of their functions on $3 million a year was not enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI remember raising this when National was in Government, and we heard from the then commissioner Russell Wills clearly telling us at the time that, as commissioner, he was having to prioritise their monitoring into specific areas because they did not have the resources to be able to cover the whole system, and that is on the previous National Government to be held accountable for that. He produced some very impressive reports at that time, and the M\u0101ori Women\u2019s Welfare League in their submission clearly argued that we would not have got to the point of public awareness of the problems within our child protection system if it had not been for his monitoring and reports. However, they were constrained\u2014and he admitted that\u2014and the Children\u2019s Commissioner has been in front of the royal commission apologising for those failures because of a lack of resourcing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003ESo how we get to the point from acknowledging that as a problem to removing those functions, in effect, by diminishing those functions and putting them in other places is a bit beyond me, and people are really a little bit h\u014Dh\u0101 over seeing so much money going to the monitor and the Ombudsman\u2014I think it\u2019s another $18 million\u2014in the face of the fact that the Children\u2019s Commissioner, who\u2019s managed to do such a great job on $3 million. What they could have done with that money would have been truly impressive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI just want to speak to some of the other possibilities that have been on the table that could have been possible. One of them was just doing that increase in funding and doing a consultation\u2014like a proper consultation\u2014with young people across the country to hear their voices about the agency and how they wanted it to represent them, or to even increase the independence of the Children\u2019s Commissioner further by making it an Office of Parliament and to have them funded by Parliament rather than by the Government to remove that sense of them becoming a political football. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EWhat I would say, from my perspective, is that under the National Government, they actively\u2014actively\u2014starved the agency of funding to be able to reduce their advocacy. We don\u2019t want that happening, but this bill is not solving that problem, and, in fact, I would argue, as others did, that by the dismantling and separating out of functions it actually creates more risk in that sense. We could have implemented the Waitangi Tribunal\u2019s recommendation for a M\u0101ori transition authority that would have had monitoring and accountability\u2014not to the Crown\u2014that would have enabled that independence as well as ensuring Te Tiriti obligations were met. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a real concern that came through in terms of submissions about the sense of this view about advocacy and monitoring being in conflict, and we\u2019ve heard the Minister articulate it as not being consistent with the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment\u2014that is, they monitor and they advocate. The newly established Health and Disability Commissioner also has those dual functions, and the view of many submitters was that making that statement was actually saying that people will lose their functions if they advocate too strongly in a way that the Government doesn\u2019t like what they\u2019re saying. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThis is a very strong concern, and I haven\u2019t heard anything that allays my concern about that. Jonathan Boston made some quite strong statements in select committee\u2014which I\u2019m not going to repeat\u2014that showed a very real concern of people who know the functioning of Government, which is that Government is in this instance silencing an advocate for children because it doesn\u2019t fit with the Government\u2019s agenda to maintain and tinker with the status quo, as opposed to delivering real transformation, and that they\u2019re prioritising the trust of the public in the status quo over delivering for our children. That is being done through, I still say, a gutting of our commission. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00226bfb724e19df464283035c137bdb7d4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226bfb724e19df464283035c137bdb7d4f\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m going to speak to the points that were made by the member, but I will point out the ones that are relevant to this part and the ones that are broader. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThe point around the form and the ask, I guess, that was made by the member Jan Logie to consider that the Children\u2019s Commissioner become an Officer of Parliament needs to be responded to. Officers of Parliament are not allowed to be advocates. They have to provide objective information, and it is explicitly stated in their roles that they are not able to be advocates, so we would not want the Children\u2019s Commissioner to be an Officer of Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThey have maintained their absolute independence through this legislation, the same independence that they had prior to us bringing this bill to the House. The one thing I will say that is one of the things that has changed is that they now have more extensive powers to get information or to require information than what the Children\u2019s Commissioner was able to gather before, and that is to bolster what informs the advocacy of the Children and Young People\u2019s Commission. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThe member asked about consultation around the system. Again, that\u2019s perhaps traversing slightly beyond what I am meant to here, but I will respond to it. When the consultation occurred with the Beattie report and in the lead-up to the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor being established, it was consultation about the whole system that was in place, which, of course, is what we\u2019re talking about today: the monitoring, the advocacy, and the complaints and investigation function. So all of that was traversed, and children were consulted during that process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EOne of the things that came out loud and clear was that children wanted diversity in the advocacy that they were able to access, and what we\u2019ve done with the Children and Young People\u2019s Commission is to bolster the advocacy by requiring a governance board that must have people on it who\u2014and this is referring to clause 92, \u201CExperience and knowledge of board members\u201D, in Part 5. It states, \u201C(1) The Commission must have, on a collective basis, among its board members\u2014(a) experience and knowledge of children\u2019s and young people\u2019s rights and issues; and (aa) knowledge and understanding of te Tiriti o Waitangi \u2026 and (b) the required skills and leadership expertise to reflect the needs of children and young people of interest to the Commission.\u201D So it is actually bolstering the representation that will be able to inform the advocacy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThis is so important. The previous Children\u2019s Commissioner Judge Becroft actually was so concerned about the need to have, particularly, M\u0101ori advocacy present that he created a position, which was the assistant Children\u2019s Commissioner for M\u0101ori. We\u2019re going beyond that with what we are proposing here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EHe recognised that there was a lack of diversity. Despite the fact that our Children\u2019s Commissioners have been amazing advocates for children\u2014and I say that about them wholeheartedly\u2014when we reflect back on the Children\u2019s Commissioners that we have appointed in this country, seven out of nine of them were P\u0101keh\u0101 men. Now, that is in no way a criticism, but that is a reflection of the lack of thought that went into diversity in the Children\u2019s Commissioner for the representation of children, the vast majority of whom have always been M\u0101ori children, with an overrepresentation of disabled children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ESo the governance board is in no way taking away from the role of the Children\u2019s Commissioner, depleting its powers, or undermining the role of a chief Children\u2019s Commissioner. It is extending its ability to advocate effectively for the children that end up in the care system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00225c862bd86fe64460980f3c5c997ab0ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c862bd86fe64460980f3c5c997ab0ce\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. This might be my final chance, at least for now, to comment, and I congratulate you, Mr O\u2019Connor on your current elevation to the role of Chair. I won\u2019t do so at length\u2014I appreciate that the debate has to move on\u2014but as a fellow member of the parliamentary cricket team, I thought it might be helpful for you to consider that if members are speaking outside the scope of the bill, then a \u201Cwide\u201D might be appropriate. If you don\u2019t accept a point of order, I suppose you\u2019d have to say \u201Cthat\u2019s a no-ball\u201D, and, finally, if any more of us are sent from the Chamber, then that\u2019s obviously a dismissal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226219b1d3a11e4f10aaca8e4957720a6a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll be very wary of bouncers, actually.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b421d960125c4415bfffb1d9d79ea046\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Very good. Thank you for that guidance, Mr Chair. I\u2019ll try to avoid imparting too much spin.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EClause 95, in Part 5, notes that there\u2019s to be the appointment of a judge to the commission, so I just wonder if the Minister can tell us\u2014I appreciate that it\u2019s a fairly arcane point and she might not know; that\u2019s fine\u2014whether the judge and their actions and contribution to this process would be subject to the Judicial Conduct Commissioner arrangement. Ordinarily, of course, a judge performing their duties in a normal courtroom setting could be the subject of a complaint in terms of their conduct, and I don\u2019t know if that would apply to the role they would do as part of this regime, because we see that for all purposes the judge\u2019s service as a board member is taken to be service as a judge. So I\u2019m curious to know, but I\u2019m comfortable if the Minister is unable to answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022917dbd772b70456bb5d39fc92997402d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022917dbd772b70456bb5d39fc92997402d\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s explicitly stated in clause 95, in Part 5 of the bill. Clause 95(2) states that \u201CFor all purposes, the Judge\u2019s service as a board member is taken to be service as a Judge.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u002208cb325ba4854c52b5538450e50b5838\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208cb325ba4854c52b5538450e50b5838\u0022\u003EKAREN CHHOUR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just want to just make note of, once again, my Supplementary Order Paper 189; it\u2019s inserting clause 118 to make sure the review is commenced \u201Cno later than 6 months after the delivery to the Minister of the report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in Care and must be completed no later than 12 months after its commencement.\u201D It\u2019s very similar to what I was speaking to in regards to the last part of this bill. It\u2019s just giving assurances to young people and to survivors of abuse in State care that we actually take that seriously, and we are going to make sure that the recommendations are taken into consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022 data-id=\u00228ebbe0d205454856b1e267377bab12cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ebbe0d205454856b1e267377bab12cd\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m almost certain\u2014in fact, I\u2019m quite confident\u2014that those members of the public listening in to this debate who have worked in the specialised area of child welfare sector care, and also those members who are part of the current Office of the Children\u2019s Commissioner, would find that not only has this bill\u2014from the time that it was introduced to the House\u2014a sense of foreboding but an attitude of \u201CGovernment knows better than anybody else\u201D, anybody who has dedicated their professional and their personal lives to this, and the submissions that have been made to the Social Services and Community Committee have been disregarded almost in totality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003ESo this part of the bill, Part 5, is comprised of clauses 82 to 122. Clause 83, \u201CPurpose of this Part\u201D is \u201Cto establish the Children and Young People\u2019s Commission\u201D. I put a proposal to the House that actually it\u2019s to vanquish truth to power with the decommissioning of the current Office of the Children\u2019s Commissioner. I say that because the truth to power is that the Office, despite its inadequate, deficient resourcing, for whatever reason, despite the pleas for additional resourcing, with submissions before this Government in select committee, the decision had been made back in 2019 to reroute that funding to the appointment of the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor. It had been rerouted in resourcing, prioritising, and bolstering the function, the role, and the purpose of the Office of the Ombudsmen, all in a staged transition to the decommissioning of the current Office of the Children\u2019s Commissioner and the Children\u2019s Commissioner, and vanquishing that truth to power. By now, fleshing out and proposing\u2014and it is a done deal; always was, right from the first day that this came before select committee. I knew full well when I heard the advice and the pushback on the proposals and the recommendations from those in the public, in this specialised sector of child welfare and advocacy, from those of us who have worked in the sector too, to be told we don\u2019t know much really, and, frankly, the Government knows better. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EComing back to the purpose of this part. Clause 83 says, \u201Cto establish the Children and Young People\u2019s Commission to promote and advance the rights, interests, and participation of children and young people\u201D. Well, as has been well heard in this debate, the voices, the views, the input of our children and young people through their specialised advocacy groups, for example, VOYCE - Whakarongo Mai, all of whom the select committee and those of us in Opposition have engaged, met, listened\u2014not just heard; listened to, and taken to heart, heeding what their life experience is in State welfare care. So the Government has seen fit to disband that very important representative advocate voice and face, the Office of the Children\u2019s Commissioner, by establishing a board. The State\u2014the Government\u2014knows best, and is telling, again, that specialised sector and the children in lived care experience and, also, those who are still giving evidence before the royal commission of inquiry, that the State, the Government, the Minister know best and they will disestablish truth to power by the appointment of a commission board. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EI heard the Minister talk about the importance of experience and diversity, and, actually, the experience and diversity is fully representative in the current Commissioner for Children, Judge Frances Eivers, who is whakapapa M\u0101ori and whakapapa tauiwi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220101bb0bda174c758c0c77c25ad081db\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. We appointed her.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba0e6b9c17ee4141855e32432bfa9498\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. It\u2019s known that Judge Eivers was appointed by this Government. But it\u2019s also known that Judge Eivers put on notice that this bill was coming before the House, because\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228bc5c11b0414bbab966037312117247\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: She was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0c53d954353411fa0da3437a6d2bcbf\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and if that\u2019s the case, Judge Eivers hasn\u2019t had the opportunity to speak and present that publicly because of a compromised position. But it\u2019s well known that those persons who have advocated in this sector and given a lifetime\u2019s service\u2014former Commissioner for Children Judge Becroft, former Commissioner for Children Russell Wills, and others, and it\u2019s going to be very interesting when this gets signed off with Royal assent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022b22eb78a34f74361a236b3ad8184f40e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b22eb78a34f74361a236b3ad8184f40e\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I wanted specifically to speak to one of the provisions in our Supplementary Order Paper in a minute, but I\u2019m also keen to hear from the Minister, to address the points in the Auckland University Aotearoa New Zealand Centre for Indigenous Peoples and the Law report, Time to Taihoa, around this provision in the bill, that was saying that it breaches Te Tiriti and the Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples in the following ways\u201D: that \u201CIt fails to recognise M\u0101ori tino rangatiratanga over k\u0101inga, which includes the right to oversee and monitor that the rights of tamariki M\u0101ori are respected and upheld.\u201D It said that \u201CM\u0101ori should have participated in [the] decision-making on whether the Office of the Children\u2019s Commissioner should be reconfigured and, if so, what form any new body \u2026 should take, and how it should be governed.\u201D And that the bill fails to \u201Cexplicitly state that M\u0101ori must be represented on the proposed Children\u2019s Commission\u2019s Board.\u201D and I\u2019ll get into that more, and that it \u201Cprovides that a nominations panel and the responsible Minister have the power to decide who will represent M\u0101ori on the \u2026 Children\u2019s Commission. In line with te Tiriti and the \u2026 Declaration, M\u0101ori must decide who will represent them\u201D, and that it \u201Cfails to provide the Children\u2019s Commission with any monitoring or complaints oversight functions, both generally and in relation to Oranga Tamariki.\u201D And \u201CConsidering the disparity faced by tamariki M\u0101ori and the extent to which their rights as tangata whenua, te Tiriti partners \u2026 are violated \u2026 essential that \u2026 [the commissioner] as \u2026 New Zealand\u2019s national child rights institution, is independent and effective and has all the necessary powers and functions to monitor, investigate \u2026, and promote and protect children\u2019s rights in line with international standards.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI\u2019m interested in the response to those points, but I would like to get into a little bit more our suggested amendment to have at least half of the board members have experience and knowledge of tikanga M\u0101ori and whakapa M\u0101ori. There was a very strong support for this that came out through the select committee process. I acknowledge that this clause has been strengthened slightly through the select committee process, but it does not include that requirement to whakapapa M\u0101ori. Some of the advice that we were given was that it might be discriminatory to do so, so we sought advice as a committee from the Human Rights Commission on that point and their advice was really clear: that it would not be and that, actually, it was consistent with the guarantees of partnership, active protection, and equity under Te Tiriti o Waitangi, and that rationale is further supported and affirmed by the rights, standards, and obligations outlined in the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. And the Waitangi Tribunal\u2019s recent report emphasised that M\u0101ori must lead the transformation of Oranga Tamariki and it is their view that this leadership role must extend to the oversight of the agency and the composition of the Children and Young People\u2019s Commission governing board. The commission further noted that there were also strong grounds for including whakapapa M\u0101ori around special measures around the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act (BORA), let alone Te Tiriti obligations, saying that under the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act they\u2019re required to address significant inequalities for tamariki M\u0101ori and measures to achieve equality are provided for under the BORA and under international human rights law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m very concerned that there\u2019s a view that actually providing explicitly for whakapapa M\u0101ori, in terms of our governing arrangements of the commission, but more generally, is somehow problematic when I think that\u2019s really at the very foundations and heart of our country to enable that, and considering the history of harm, the Green Party would argue there should be a duty for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u00224640224896a040a3bd0d4b9e279e4de7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224640224896a040a3bd0d4b9e279e4de7\u0022\u003EBARBARA EDMONDS (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf5eec1871a94d7ab312b0294ae10eef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf5eec1871a94d7ab312b0294ae10eef\u0022\u003EKAREN CHHOUR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just want to speak to Part 5 as a whole\u2014replacing the Children\u2019s Commissioner. I have a huge fear that the Children\u2019s Commissioner, who has built up a brand of trust within the community, with our youth, within organisations, is now having that trust factor taken away. Whether the Minister feels this is true or not, it\u2019s perception from young people that matters the most, and young people have expressed huge concern that youth are going to fall through the cracks in this new scheme where we are separating monitoring, advocacy, and oversight. It\u2019s been stated by quite a few people who have knowledge from the ground that young people need a simple system so that they know where to go, what\u2019s going to happen, and the processes. This just seems to have complicated the issue for young people more. Many times the Minister has said the problem is they just don\u2019t understand or we don\u2019t understand\u2014it\u2019s a misunderstanding. If it is that complicated that even people who have years of experience with legislation and with writing policy\u2014the Minister is saying they just misunderstand\u2014how are our youth supposed to understand this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022 data-id=\u00226b448a23da284bbcad531cc90b48ecd8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b448a23da284bbcad531cc90b48ecd8\u0022\u003EDr EMILY HENDERSON (Labour\u2014Whang\u0101rei):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022 data-id=\u0022b51375348a664beababf895208323a73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b51375348a664beababf895208323a73\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. It\u2019s a question to the Minister in terms of having spoken to clause 95, \u201CAppointment of Judge to Commission\u201D. Minister, if you are able to take advice, perhaps, and give clarity to why we\u2019re seeking specifically the appointment of a judge to the commission. Is it because the current Children\u2019s Commissioner is a judge, and to make room for the Children\u2019s Commissioner, who is now going in as a result of an amendment to this bill that has been proposed, as a chair? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003ESo I directed the question to the Minister to clarify that, because I do have it on authority that judges are unlikely to be given permission to apply or sit on a Crown entity in that capacity whilst they\u2019re serving as a presiding judge\u2014so they\u2019re unlikely to be given permission to apply or sit on a Crown entity board as a part-time board member due to constitutional conflict of interest issues. As I say, I do have that on good authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m interested as to how this clause came to be in terms of appointment of a judge to the commission when the presiding or the current Children\u2019s Commissioner is a judge, not giving service quite at this time as a judge\u2014one day may go back to that position of service\u2014but also is a person, as I referenced earlier, as have been a number of people, who comes from lived experience. As is well known, Judge Eivers was a specialist child welfare Family Court lawyer, advocate, representative in other sectors too\u2014representing, advocating for our children and young people as a specialist lawyer\u2014before appointment to the Family Court bench, giving approximately 13-14 years\u2019 service in that capacity before her appointment as Children\u2019s Commissioner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003ESo clarity around clause 95 and some of those potential constitutional conflicts of interest and how that\u2019s to be addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00224b96caccb8a34b9e8d7dfb3cc34a2b96\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b96caccb8a34b9e8d7dfb3cc34a2b96\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Briefly, to this one, there\u2019s no expectation through the legislation that the person appointed to the Chief Children\u2019s Commissioner role needs to be a judge. The provisions in this bill are carried over from the other Children\u2019s Commissioner legislation. There\u2019s nothing new in this. There have to be provisions that allow for alignment between any legislation where judges may have some kind of connection, and that is it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u00220744755b8eca4850bda9b50614bbff44\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220744755b8eca4850bda9b50614bbff44\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. This will be a fairly brief contribution\u2014the Minister might be relieved\u2014but I guess it\u2019s to the point around the functions and investigations and the removal of that to the Ombudsman. We\u2019ve heard from the Minister previously about the fact that the Children\u2019s Commissioner actually does that already. They give the complaints through to the Ombudsman. And I think the Minister\u2019s said in an answer to a question in the House that there\u2019d been 78 complaints referred to the commissioner in recent years. I wanted to know whether the Minister would take this opportunity in the committee in terms of acknowledging that those figures conflicted with the material in an Official Information Act request that said actually only 26 cases have been referred over the last 12 years and that the Children\u2019s Commissioner has provided evidence to the committee about how quite often when people come to them with complaints, they engage and they seek resolution early, as does the Ombudsman but that they are set up in terms of the focus of their systems is around child-friendliness and engagement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s now going to be a huge amount of resource and effort that is going into trying to create that expertise within the Ombudsman because they\u2019ve acknowledged they don\u2019t have it. And that really feels a bit wasteful when we could have just put more resourcing into the Children\u2019s Commissioner to enable all of that skill to be used in its fullest extent, and for that information that came from those complaints to inform their work much more broadly as an organisation. So that is my contribution. I\u2019m interested in the Minister\u2019s answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022 data-id=\u002258be4f7c7cfe4275822f7032f72b7b1d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258be4f7c7cfe4275822f7032f72b7b1d\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m referring to the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 209 with the multiple proposed amendments, some 10 initially, which are more substantive amendments. Then, on the face\u2014I haven\u2019t done a specific count\u2014are the minor and technical changes which traverse the entire scope of the bill, not just Part 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, a question: why is it that towards the end when we get to the committee of the whole House at least 10 substantive amendments have been proposed to Part 5\u2014at this point in time when advice has been given at select committee and your members of Parliament of the Labour Party did not in fact take heed but the Minister has at the eleventh hour? Could the Minister please just clarify that? I think the public is probably due an explanation when they are the ones who have made their submissions at the earlier stage and the anguish that they\u2019ve been put through. And finally, Minister, it\u2019s acknowledged that it\u2019s been taken heed but why the delay? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022 data-id=\u00226b0e008cd53447418e15e78f7b0654cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b0e008cd53447418e15e78f7b0654cc\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022fecd60f6df1348df9dc29a8d4046cd56\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fecd60f6df1348df9dc29a8d4046cd56\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for that. I\u2019m going to just hear some more contributions. I\u2019m very aware that Part 2 contains a number of Supplementary Order Papers (SOPs). I\u2019m also aware that this part began its debate at 11.52, so with all those things in mind, I will just see where we go. I\u2019ll be looking for relevance and addressing SOPs and making sure that we\u2019re not going over old ground.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022371b428c378d45ab947b644ff171a07f\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Do you know we\u2019re on Part 5? You said Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00223c009b0cfde14dee9906e3ded1c40bfd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c009b0cfde14dee9906e3ded1c40bfd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Part 5\u2014yeah, Part 5. Thank you. That was a bit unorthodox, but the message got through. Thank you. It\u2019s obviously been a long morning. Right\u2014easy. The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 5 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 209 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220f88256b0883460d9a207afd8e974a80\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 85\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 33\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1383677ff6d464c97946fbcb5541187\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1383677ff6d464c97946fbcb5541187\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Jan Logie\u2019s amendments to Part 5 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 214 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002236ff142a467c42919c1851e4036a0f08\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 108\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; New Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002259586269d000432fae2d7d617bf1dacf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259586269d000432fae2d7d617bf1dacf\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Karen Chhour\u2019s amendment to clause 93 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 194 is out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThe question is that Karen Chhour\u2019s remaining amendments to Part 5 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 194 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e11e65b66aba427593791e3b3321ac6f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 20\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 98\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; New Zealand National 33. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9ce5a27d64548bead4c13dd5a4225be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9ce5a27d64548bead4c13dd5a4225be\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Karen Chhour\u2019s amendment to clause 94 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 190 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f646feab2c6c4dbfa3d8e8bfb34addfa\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002226153670139d42e9a4c7bf54dd3e059e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226153670139d42e9a4c7bf54dd3e059e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Karen Chhour\u2019s amendment inserting new clause 102A set out on Supplementary Order Paper 195 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002231641fc4796f4e49ad37884474fe44d8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 20\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 98\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; New Zealand National 33.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00225f995383d5714b3ab9aa2bf24495cecd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f995383d5714b3ab9aa2bf24495cecd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Karen Chhour\u2019s amendment to clause 118 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 189 is out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee. The question is that Part 5 as amended stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002281219f958b41460997aaf64917161c52\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 5 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 5 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022acae7fa895a04fa69a2909e104e27fbe\u0022\u003ESchedule 1\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022029b57732edd4c9aaffdc2522b5e8676\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022029b57732edd4c9aaffdc2522b5e8676\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Schedule 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022891432e15cee43a09ab4ba3c39003b78\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223a29df33439e421c8bcc7b16be64138c\u0022\u003ESchedule 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00227b64b945802649c3b82452d5b5df4c22\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b64b945802649c3b82452d5b5df4c22\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment to Schedule 2 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 209 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f2fa56cf115042a1984d83f2769a67ec\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00221ec01e8962584cf2b3707b96d3e10ca1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ec01e8962584cf2b3707b96d3e10ca1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Karen Chhour\u2019s amendment to Schedule 2 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 194 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002283775c2f81d14dfe8a8b79a6d40d6caa\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 20\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 98\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; New Zealand National 33.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00225be6b7ceff54429c9aa1e855b3990823\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225be6b7ceff54429c9aa1e855b3990823\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Schedule 2 as amended stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002238abe2c125e54d9aa2925192725d33de\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e6389c4464074a78ae505367a6beb06c\u0022\u003ESchedule 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00228a81de05c53848e2abe99dcf4d3edacf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a81de05c53848e2abe99dcf4d3edacf\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Schedule 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022570f5a106b61448c81797897a7938891\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 98\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65; New Zealand National 33.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 20\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a045976d89a048adbcac1a7a4dbdd462\u0022\u003ESchedule 4\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022af93020cb3944c42a1f4ef0986df7c26\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af93020cb3944c42a1f4ef0986df7c26\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Schedule 4 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002283247bfa90e6439a85be7b6c0177a289\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 4 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 65. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 4 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225a46c0bb32bf4b05a19856543dd40633\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2, and new clause 2A\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00224949026fc1a046f4a85b221c0aea4996\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224949026fc1a046f4a85b221c0aea4996\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to our final debate, clauses 1 and 2, and new clause 2A. I call Harete Hipango.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022 data-id=\u0022654493f2998349f181d5fb3d211afafc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022654493f2998349f181d5fb3d211afafc\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO (National):\u003C/span\u003E I apologise, Madam Chair. We are speaking to a proposed motion to divide the bill into two bills\u2014is that where we\u2019re at? Title and commencement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa97480a5b724e74a20a13f0e976bfbd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I\u2019m sorry. I was looking at my sheet. Could the member repeat her\u2014is the member taking a point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdba7de93f004872b3b7a7316f138cd7\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO\u003C/span\u003E: No, not at all. I was taking a call, thinking that we were addressing the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper (SOP).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d0a3726f6b94e5e9ae455f58627047a\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: No, you were asking what it was. You don\u2019t even know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fcc9dc9ead64b4e8236e4a01e6d40bf\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t need the Minister\u2019s help here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d272337af674b2ea443921a68cecc67\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I may have misheard. I didn\u2019t want to miss the call and let the opportunity lapse. Are we speaking to SOP 210, which is about the proposed motion to divide the bill into two parts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c681adfb735c46c59f28e71a75cd7ec9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: If the member wants to raise a point of order, she says \u201Cpoint of order\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b67b0e5d7ea64817837e689d084f1dc0\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO\u003C/span\u003E: Title and commencement. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d189606db9fd494883262c47c71b99ca\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: There is clear confusion, and I\u2019m sorry if it\u2019s me that\u2019s been the cause of it, so I will start again. Our final debate is on clauses 1 and 2 and new clause 2A.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8cab5505cc54494a5d46ce5e95c82cc\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for that clarity on the matter. So in terms of the title, this bill is proposed to be named the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System and Children and Young People\u2019s Commission Bill. On that note, that is the bill that had been put to the public, to the House, and to the Social Services and Community Committee for consideration. However, there is a proposed motion before the House, so in speaking to the title of the bill, it is pre-empting what that motion will be, and that\u2019s on the premise that this bill has been addressed in five parts, and that those parts have dealt with the three specific oversight entities and mechanisms of the Independent Children\u2019s Monitor, the Office of the Ombudsmen with their complaints investigation role, and the Office of the Children\u2019s Commissioner, soon to be, under this bill, the Children and Young People\u2019s Commission. So the title that has been proposed is that of Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System and Children and Young People\u2019s Commission Bill; I understand that\u2019s not how it will eventuate in time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u00224f47820e1962403c99d7db0d8bb794ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f47820e1962403c99d7db0d8bb794ea\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I\u2019d just like to in this contribution speak to the commencement, really, and again, make the point\u2014and if it\u2019s uncomfortable for some in this Chamber to hear and maybe they\u2019re bored with it, I\u2019m OK with that because actually our community is telling us so clearly that this bill should not be going ahead and definitely not at the point of commencement before or in July 2023, just next year, about right when the royal commission\u2019s report is due. So on this commencement date and the continuation of this bill, I want to bring the voices of all of those who have been strongly opposing this again into this Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EWe were requested to put this on hold by the Royal Commission Forum, which is made up of survivors, as well as some long-time members of the Labour Party and people with very senior experience within Government and researchers who have spent lives monitoring our child protection service and speaking up on behalf of the children who have been harmed: the Auckland University Aotearoa New Zealand Centre for Indigenous Peoples and the Law; M\u0101ori submitters, including the M\u0101ori Women\u2019s Welfare League; Waikato-Tainui; all of the dames; VOYCE-Whakarongo Mai, who are set up to be the voice of young people in care right now; Save the Children, the children\u2019s rights advocacy organisation; the Children\u2019s Rights Alliance, which has a role of monitoring our obligations under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child; Starship hospital; YouthLaw; Pacific Law providers working with children\u2014it\u2019s been overwhelming the call to pause, to go back, and ensure that children are part of shaping this system to ensure that it meets their needs as opposed to institutions\u2019 or Government needs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EAt the heart of any system\u2014which has been acknowledged in the papers around this, but in a very weird way\u2014is that for monitoring and complaints to work, you\u2019ve got to trust the people who are doing those roles enough to tell them if something\u2019s going wrong. And when everybody in our community and our young people in care are saying they do not trust the proposed model, how are they going to trust those people enough to go to them to tell them that something is wrong? The potential of harm being silenced because of a continued lack of trust and we have to remember that we are starting from a point of very, very low trust.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThe Government\u2019s answer to that is to tell the monitor that it has a duty to improve public trust. That\u2019s not how trust works. Trust works from changing behaviour when you\u2019ve messed up. It doesn\u2019t work from telling people, \u201CYou need to trust me.\u201D It needs to work from changing behaviour and listening and building relationship because at the heart of everything is relationship. This bill going through in this way is another severing of relationship, and it\u2019s doomed to fail. Even if it was the right thing to do, it will be doomed to fail because it is again undermining the trust of people with whom we have so much work to do to rebuild trust with. So, so disappointed\u2014just so, so disappointed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u0022fdab9077bb9545bfb404b0fd39cc8a0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fdab9077bb9545bfb404b0fd39cc8a0d\u0022\u003EKAREN CHHOUR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I too would just like to speak to the commencement around this Act, and I too am disappointed that we are carrying on with this and that there is a date when this bill will commence. Over and over again, we\u2019ve heard that youth voices are the most important. Getting youth involved in the decision making around their lives is important. We can\u2019t afford to get this wrong anymore. For too long, we\u2019ve got this wrong. We have too many victims in the past of a broken system and too many in the present of a broken system. And from hearing the voices of the people that work on the ground with these youth, we\u2019re going to end up with too many victims in the future, because we continue to get this wrong. We\u2019re not breaking the cycle of allowing Governments and public servants to make decisions around our youth and around their care instead of actually going to the people who work with these youth on a day-to-day basis and actually listening to what they are saying, because listening and actually doing something from what you\u2019ve heard are two different things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EActions speak louder than words, and the actions from this Government today, still pushing to put this bill through, show us that they\u2019re just words. They\u2019re meaningless. Our youth feel like they are meaningless again. Victims of abuse in State care feel their voices are meaningless again. We can say, \u201CYour voice matters.\u201D We can say, \u201CWe want you to be involved in the decision making that affects you and your future.\u201D But, as I said, actions speak louder than words. How many came forward and said that this will put more youth at risk? More youth will fall through the cracks with this bill. But no, we\u2019re still going to go with Government and public servants know best. How much longer can we allow this to happen? I\u2019m just disappointed that this bill is even going to commence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022 data-id=\u00224233ab2566a94701b3c392ba76efc848\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224233ab2566a94701b3c392ba76efc848\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I sense that this will be the last stand that I make on this bill before it goes to the third reading. I join in unison in a voice filled with passion with my colleague Jan Logie from the Green Party, my colleague Karen Chhour from the ACT Party, and I from the National Party\u2014all stand in unison alongside the New Zealand public, those who have lived care experience of the State welfare ill-fared system, those who have dedicated lives and service to this sector, importantly, to children and young people of Aotearoa New Zealand. Jan Logie, from the background that my colleague comes from, working in the social justice sector\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224245a27ff1ca4aa2b399e45afc49df9e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I\u2019m just going to ask the member to focus her comments and contribution on clauses 1, 2, and 2A. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6b78a983ee84937b770d326049c5709\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO\u003C/span\u003E: Appreciate that, and that comes to the title. Talking about Karen Chhour, if I may, and wrapping this in and blending it to the title\u2014Karen, having come from lived life experience of the State welfare and care system, and I having worked as a lawyer advocating for this sector for most of my professional legal career. This brings me to the title. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003ESpeaking to that, this is called the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System and Children and Young People\u2019s Commission Bill. I put a proposal to the House that this bill is more than an oversight. It is actually blind\u2014a \u201CBlinded Oranga Tamariki System and Deaf to the Voices and the Views of Children and Young People\u2019s Bill\u201D. That\u2019s the title that I submit, which reflects the sentiment and also the expressions and the submissions that have been put before the select committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022944f4e1511d44c79bc5d8e77a8d8ffc4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022944f4e1511d44c79bc5d8e77a8d8ffc4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: With apologies\u2014order! With apologies to the member. The time has now come for me to report progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EProgress to be reported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002269f32b37312f42f5ba0c21227c3735d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269f32b37312f42f5ba0c21227c3735d1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, the committee has further considered the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System and Children and Young People\u2019s Commission Bill and reports progress. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022303ee9d62db145f491339c8892cfb959\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022303ee9d62db145f491339c8892cfb959\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb3bb50faf824feeb509d7c5185fc456\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb3bb50faf824feeb509d7c5185fc456\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is set down for further consideration in committee next sitting day. Members, the House stands adjourned until 2 p.m. today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 12.56 p.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022081028f1a6f85ace455999d4c836272db528000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"