"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c92322b8f0b44feba83e9f379d226f1e\u0022\u003EWEDNESDAY, 31 AUGUST 2022\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002288d95a02f7344c1fbec1ea9e74bf7155\u0022\u003EWEDNESDAY, 31 AUGUST 2022\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002250731c442e6c423da75f22795220e4d9\u0022\u003Ekarakia/prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222091644546d74639ba49fe7e11d603b9\u0022\u003Ekarakia/prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002257ebe2a57212497e8015046e2f175e9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002257ebe2a57212497e8015046e2f175e9b\u0022\u003EHon JENNY SALESA (Assistant Speaker):\u003C/span\u003E Ke tau lotu. \u2018E \u2018Otua M\u0101fimafi, kuo mau ta\u2018im\u0101lie \u2018i ho\u2018o \u2018of\u00E1. \u2018Oku tuku homau lot\u00F3 ka mau h\u016B atu. Ke ke malu\u2018i \u2018a e Kuin\u00ED, mo tataki mai mu\u2018a \u2018emau ng\u0101ue \u2018i Fale Ale\u00E1. Ke fai\u2018aki \u2018a e poto faka-\u2018Otua \u2013 \u2018a e \u2018of\u00E1 mo e \u2018ulung\u0101anga malu, ko e \u2018uh\u00ED ko e mo\u2018u\u00ED mo e nofo melino \u2018a e fonu\u00E1. Pea \u2018oku mau kole \u2018a e ngaahi me\u2018\u00E1 ni \u2018i he Huaf\u00E1 ho\u2018o \u2018Al\u00F3 ka ko homau Fakamo\u2018u\u00ED. \u2018\u0112meni.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E[Almighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the Queen and pray for guidance in our deliberations that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom and humility, for the welfare, peace, and compassion of New Zealand. Amen.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228a1e07bd55104a0fab3b6d4fe05e314e\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225930c41b89144f6f8b62b787798dffbb\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed0e075553fc42ea941ef8c6c63682e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed0e075553fc42ea941ef8c6c63682e9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, a petition has been delivered to the Clerk for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u002252535a60d81e41d6a99f2b36afe0ffb7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252535a60d81e41d6a99f2b36afe0ffb7\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: Petition of Donna Bridgeman, requesting that the House require K\u0101inga Ora to immediately purchase land and construct new permanent rental accommodation and emergency housing in K\u0101piti.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022c44731c83bbb46b1bf3e030b3f4f3957\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c44731c83bbb46b1bf3e030b3f4f3957\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That petition stands referred to the Petitions Committee. A paper has been delivered for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u002266836fbc549248ab9399c8fbd1413e6a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266836fbc549248ab9399c8fbd1413e6a\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealand Productivity Commission, Statement of Performance Expectations 2022/23.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00224ac2620077c74dc3b177442671ad9b0b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ac2620077c74dc3b177442671ad9b0b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That paper is published under the authority of the House. No select committee reports have been delivered for presentation. No bills have been introduced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002272428ccff577404b96cf2b21e8d2a73a\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c44cd757d33944afade835d0aee7bbd5\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022827922796ea44cf49a85ecaa85b71818\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u002239bce2e8c09345f39d672926c47fe3b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239bce2e8c09345f39d672926c47fe3b0\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER LUXON (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all of her Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u0022087abe062ec74a769e3da6ac3081cb47\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022087abe062ec74a769e3da6ac3081cb47\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, particularly the Government\u2019s efforts to increase the supply of new homes. In the year ending July 2022, there were 50,614 new homes consented, up 12 percent from the year ended July 2021. Auckland has seen a 13 percent increase over the previous year, Canterbury 26 percent, and Wellington and Otago 20 percent. There\u2019s been a particular rise in apartments and townhouses, highlighting the benefits of the National Policy Statement on Urban Development and medium-density housing reforms. The effect we\u2019re having is clear. Just last week, Kiwibank Chief Economist Jarrod Kerr stated, \u201CThe housing shortage has shrunk from 57,000 homes to 23,000 homes\u201D, and that we will, \u201Cstart \u2026 [to accumulate] a surplus of housing over the coming years\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229458c5ae6a404bcc812f7cf0fc9fb70e\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Government introduce a bill yesterday to increase the tax on KiwiSaver when the Government\u2019s own advice clearly stated that it would have wiped $103 billion off KiwiSaver balances?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f725d415b6104ff6a48529721369b92d\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Acknowledging that the member\u2019s assertion in the first half of the question was incorrect, the proposal was around standardising the applications of GST fees and services for managed funds providers. The goal of those changes, which were instigated through a review that began in 2017 under the last Government, was to even out the playing field. When we hear clearly from the sector that their view is that the status quo is preferred\u2014we\u2019ve heard that, because what is most important to us is confidence in KiwiSaver.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253bd0b149f8b4e31b032a44ea5fb2712\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I seek leave to table the taxation (annual rates for 2022/23 platform economy and remedial matters) departmental disclosure statement, given the Prime Minister clearly hasn\u2019t read it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291e327bceda7492f8696fac011be6511\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask the member: is that publicly available?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022005611092e3d4f14a59f0492c2338a63\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s actually an interesting question, because the bill has been introduced to the House, but I understand the\u2014 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201a7dc75388645dd9d7506a582d07469\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, that\u2019s not\u2014it\u2019s either publicly available or it\u2019s not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efdbef872fab405e8e4f6f6795807301\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s actually removed from the public domain, because the Government policy seems to be in disarray on this issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022532e9c8499cb401baae908e35caa8d8c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not the question I asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd70152b3e8d4e8183abd3bec758cc2c\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I don\u2019t know if it\u2019s publicly available any more, sir.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb313b5f92854f8ca99c35465e485f4e\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ecc2fd041c64424a3ca3973b84803df\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Are you speaking to this? I haven\u2019t ruled on this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5fe50a9abcf41e68b68e6d69074d171\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022531992f515d7411e906b457dde5c1e63\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You can speak to this one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022310c86de3c214f07a857f2b54d3a70f0\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Members well know that when a bill is tabled, the disclosure statements are tabled at the same time. Raising this issue in the way the member has is clearly designed to be deliberately disorderly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b84007f988ea42fe94b209cc15f1b4bf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I have to agree, but responding that way is equally disorderly as well. Can we call that one-all and move on?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2c4d8723ca74e0f801d0aa1b1a5f1c0\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Did the legislation to increase tax on KiwiSaver fees go through the proper Cabinet process, and why was it introduced given a day later, the Government has signalled it will not be proceeding?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273f4110e18714b2a8520f8e37587da30\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: The member will be aware that it did go through a process. The member will also be aware, by the release of that documentation alongside it, that it went through a consultation process. In the regulatory impact statement, you can see that there were some, of course, who viewed that this would be an advantageous change. There are others who viewed it would not be. We have seen a fairly clear response to an attempt by us to even up the playing field on KiwiSaver. Our view is that if this does anything to undermine KiwiSaver, it is something that we will not support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c0c0e57a32a4be5bfde4a4cdcabc4a0\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister accept that dropping the KiwiSaver GST changes will reduce Government revenue by an estimated $225 million per year, and, if so, will her Government spend less or borrow more to make up the shortfall?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282a95197632b4d55a41251af9449f79c\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Ultimately the second half of that question is irrelevant because it was from 2026 onward. The other point that I would make is that there are a number of caveats around whether or not this would indeed increase to that level. That was not the driver of the change. Evening out the playing field for boutique providers versus large fund managers was the goal. But if we hear clearly back from fund providers that they do not believe it will improve the system, then we\u2019ve heard that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebf75d69db3c41a281a1f8d232a060b8\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Prime Minister think that balancing the Budget will be irrelevant from 2026 onwards?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c080bb8f7894444979994f4bc996a51\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Because it is not the basis on which Budget decisions have been made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfd7a6cd91c74303a463f30ed13726fa\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does she take it as a vote of confidence in her Government that the leader of the ACT Party is confidently predicting that her Government will still be in office in 2026?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242e1c13536bb40ebb1250bf7a5e22ddc\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Ah, Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ead941eff99f489b9c6dfa0d13c46647\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022425b9813db78427894539d5d94a66e12\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Is she embarrassed that just a day after introducing a bill to increase taxes on KiwiSaver, the Government has performed a humiliating U-turn and dropped it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbfad91042aa405eb9238bc4ed27c2fa\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: What I would be embarrassed about is leading a party who once called KiwiSaver a glorified Christmas club; who opposed its introduction; who, for instance, reduced the Government contribution; who have, over a period of time, stopped contributions to the Superannuation Fund, and did everything in their power to undermine KiwiSaver. That is hardly a credible position from a member whose party\u2019s history has been opposed to KiwiSaver in its totality. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acfaf7162dd043d2a67bae53e55b8c1f\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Why did her Government introduce a bill to Parliament that would have wiped $103 billion off the value of hard-working Kiwis\u2019 KiwiSaver balances?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9537a7d37a44fb3b319633ecbdf77b7\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I also would have accepted that the member may have read a little further down in the regulatory impact statement that also says that stakeholders have also advised that for some managers, that would incur no material transition costs; others may incur significant transitional costs. Of course, if this was about ensuring an evening up of the playing field, in some cases GST was already being applied; in others it was not. Of course, making assumptions, therefore, of how much revenue it will generate would be heavily caveated, but nor was it the goal of this provision in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022490c463e977342c3be55c851015dda3b\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister believe that the following actions would undermine confidence in KiwiSaver: cutting hundreds of millions of dollars a year from what was going in to KiwiSaver accounts, introducing a tax on employer contributions, halving the member tax credit\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228165934335e349fca3f51a030565b959\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Caught red-handed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022879da82248414effb614f702bfb5159d\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson: \u003C/span\u003E\u2014and ditching\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238885eefb2d64ec19248bab31e5db26e\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: You win.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224555626b679642b3a37f35731697da61\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014it\u2019s in a question; I\u2019ll start again, Mr Speaker\u2014cutting hundreds of millions of dollars a year from what was going in to KiwiSaver accounts, introducing a tax on employer contributions, halving the member tax credit, and ditching the thousand-dollar kick-start payment, all of which were done by the National Party?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f51f4d9da81f4626ad0d73cec26b988c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Now, I\u2019m going to rule on the at least three interjections during that question which were out of order. Yesterday, I warned Nicola Willis about the timing of interjections; there was nothing about the timing on that one. I think that was deliberate. Nicola Willis will stand, withdraw, and apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022542c342a5e9d48baaadb68b29b385294\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db19a9f54ee74705866ab2542c296bf5\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255047a3bc47741ef8706c76eeaeea53d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Now, further to that point of order, the end of the Hon Grant Robertson\u2019s question was out of order, so I\u2019m ruling it out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277049ab391d04bc684f1e7c48f3132bc\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, I seek your guidance on the content of the question. I mean, it appeared to be about five questions listing a series of different policies, and I just wonder if you view that as an acceptable question, because, if so, we\u2019ll certainly take advantage of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221927a18b09e940dfa15e88b41171bafc\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You are absolutely correct. There are two ways I can handle that issue: to interrupt the member while he\u2019s doing it, remembering that we had three interjections during that question, probably provoked by the question itself; or, wait until the member has completed the question, as I did in this instance, to deal with both issues and try to get some fairness in dealing with it. But yeah, I do acknowledge I could have done it that way; I chose not to. In the end, we have the same result.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225130612137d24307965c0668ffbc111e\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: How does she reconcile her decision to introduce a $225 million a year tax on KiwiSaver yesterday with her statement in May that \u201CWe are not doing any work on any additional tax policy\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d3f4ec728094711ab4d4fd609991db8\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Firstly, I\u2019ll point out that this work started under the National Government in 2017, and if they were so oppositional to it, I don\u2019t quite understand why they didn\u2019t stop it being instigated in the first place. The second point is even in the asking of the question you can see one of the issues here. This is on the application of GST service fees. The way the member has talked about this will lead people to believe that it is on individual contributions. That is not what it sought to do. Regardless of that, we were seeking to even up the playing field, because currently GST on services was already being applied to some funds and it was not for others. The sector has spoken and said that they do not believe it will enhance KiwiSaver arrangements, and so we will not proceed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e3675fc0f9048cf9080347dbfbf3c94\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: What other secret taxes, if any, is the Government working on; and will she commit, again, to not introducing any more new taxes on hard-working Kiwis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022286dc589375d42ec9834e1cd3536af46\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: The member well knows the existence of GST is not new. The evening out in the way that it is applied is not a new tax. As I also said, this piece of work had been ongoing with IRD for several years. A final point here is the difference between this side of the House and that side of the House is that we consider KiwiSaver so important that we, unlike the other party\u2014who not only have tinkered with it and destroyed it every time they have been in Government\u2014we are here to protect it, preserve it, and grow it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4e4430d405e4f4999db337f64afaa70\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Does she still have confidence in her revenue Minister? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b1ac7a037a74d96be09e8ac184ee548\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a208aec0fb9426d829191fd6abb7adc\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Will she now do a U-turn on the tenant tax that officials told her would increase rents and put pressure on the State house waiting list?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0a21de6fd1f4e55beff4337b787cdb1\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I actually believe in ensuring that first-home buyers can buy houses, and I refer back to the first answer that I gave in this House, and that is, under this Government, you\u2019re starting to see a decrease in the gap for housing supply in this country. That is what New Zealanders wanted their Government to do, and that is what we\u2019ve done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccbb327b8b884982b55d87348a19f8bf\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Government have nothing better to do in the middle of a cost of living crisis than to cook up new ways to tax hard-working Kiwis, and to fleece them out of their retirement savings? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a309bdce43644769f73dee3fbd0f9d9\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for the opportunity to talk about what we\u2019re doing on the cost of living crisis. On Thursday, the cost of living payment will go into Kiwis\u2019 bank accounts, for everyone earning $70,000 or less, to the tune of $116 a week. We\u2019ve already halved the cost of public transport. We\u2019ve decreased fuel at the pump by 25c a litre. We have the winter energy payment continuing to support those on low incomes. And I tell you what we won\u2019t do: we won\u2019t, for instance, halve annual KiwiSaver Government contributions like that Government did. We don\u2019t stop Super Fund contributions, which has reduced our savings for retirement by $32 billion. We will support Kiwis to save, and that\u2019s what we\u2019re demonstrating. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2a598bd7b054bfe8285cfc6d60542c4\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: E te M\u0101ngai o te Whare, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. Question to the Minister of Finance\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022014abd793796488e9853e8a0e07a31ea\u0022\u003ERt Hon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I said I wouldn\u2019t do this, but there\u2019s a quiet member behind me who\u2019s trying to have a supplementary\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a611cd95b10486e9b936abe2f0c2bee\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, were you wanting a supplementary on the previous question, was it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002234ec4a4e-60bd-4a4d-b211-10f9324db3ac\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2a58a4b27c148e6b8746ac5a132fa23\u0022\u003EDr Gaurav Sharma\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister stand by her statement regarding the Henry Rongomau Bennett acute mental health centre in Waikato that it\u2019s no longer fit for purpose and, if so, can she give an assurance to the people of Hamilton and greater Waikato that the new $100 million acute mental health unit, promised to have groundwork started in 2022 and due to open in 2023, is on track?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223097d1ad3f014770a5edd3388c9fb002\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the first half of the question: yes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ac783c54cc88400abc8223c40f8eba2b\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef0dc98128244a45a48fa8a0cfcff466\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef0dc98128244a45a48fa8a0cfcff466\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour\u2014Northcote)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports has he seen on the New Zealand economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022720bf94e82024403af7e195ae85d20e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022720bf94e82024403af7e195ae85d20e7\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E The export sector is continuing to support the economy. Statistics New Zealand reported that exports rose 16 percent, to $6.7 billion, in July compared to the same month a year earlier. On an annual basis, exports rose 12 percent, to $68.3 billion. The sector is continuing to show its resilience in what is a difficult and uncertain global environment. Global shipping costs are now starting to ease, although they do remain subject to disruptions. Nevertheless, New Zealand finds itself in a good position to face the challenges ahead and support New Zealanders to blunt the sharp edges of the global economic slowdown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3ec6f577d3c43e683e537507ad1af9f\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: Which sectors are contributing to the rise in exports and the growth of the economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f4cb0054d96437dab4985d87d54c7a4\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The main contribution to the rise in exports did indeed come from the dairy sector, rising 39 percent, to $2 billion, in July on the back of higher prices for milk powder, butter, and cheese, while volumes also rose for milk powder and butter. Red meat sales also rose 24 percent, to $935 million, due to higher beef and sheep prices and higher sheep volumes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea1e13e5ad7b4a1eb1991c9ba6748653\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: Which regions are buying our exports and supporting economic growth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c34e65b5bf7e41d2862f8a10b111d121\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Demand among our major export partners has remained resilient despite the challenging global environment. Sales to Asia rose nearly 13 percent for the July year, led by China and Japan, while exports to the US rose 13 percent; Europe up 6.5 percent; and Australia, 2.6 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271ca9ed848244e5499741465d12db7ba\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has he seen on the prospects for the export sector and its impact on the economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6cef9b1227a441c9ef2f458dc9f7a9d\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: In the latest quarterly predictions, the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research is forecasting global demand for the country\u2019s products and services to remain resilient despite the global challenges. The opening of borders will also support a faster recovery in the tourism and education sectors. In its forecast released this morning, ASB economists expect global food challenges and open borders to support our export earnings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a604a7ddf8b41fa9e1bdc4f52283a0b\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: What other reports has he seen on the economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ac416d8a7134caaa3302f793462f163\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I know that the member for Taranaki - King Country will be interested to know that last week, Fonterra forecast a milk payout for the current season of between $8.50 and $10 per kilo of milksolids. The midpoint of $9.25 would represent one of the highest prices ever paid out in Fonterra\u2019s history. The dairy cooperative said that the long-term outlook remains positive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229f6499273f8e46b7a8793e6bb5f3fda1\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022140f3bff0ad84b81a2d4435b67499151\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022140f3bff0ad84b81a2d4435b67499151\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does the Minister stand by the Government\u2019s economic and fiscal policy and all Cabinet decisions giving effect to that policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002262babcad90c04a0da881f8de7ce5cd82\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262babcad90c04a0da881f8de7ce5cd82\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E As I said to the member yesterday, our economic policy has led to strong outcomes such as a 3.3 percent unemployment rate, a larger economy than before COVID, inflation below that of many of the countries we compare ourselves against, and some of the lowest public debt in the world. In answer to the second part of the question, I always respect and uphold collective Cabinet responsibility. And as I\u2019m sure the member will be aware, if she has specific questions about the details of specific policies, she should address those questions to the members responsible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f10bcc17f93a4e8ab4253dd4e7283e86\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Did Cabinet agree to a Government policy to make all KiwiSaver management and investment fees subject to 15 percent GST, meaning KiwiSaver members would have less available when they withdrew funds to purchase a first home or for retirement; and does that remain Government policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1a131c973124c02aae257865c551ff8\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister being asked the question is not responsible for that. Those are rightly the responsibility of the Minister of Revenue. If that\u2019s what the member wanted to know, she should have asked a question to the Minister of Revenue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270957e0204514253a87736a7c1bdab06\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Responding to the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdec27cad5a44d23a7eade0c4f0d1f35\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Can you read the question again?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022330b6e9e0f8b4b07b8bea027dcaba508\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Certainly. I asked: did Cabinet agree to a Government policy to make all KiwiSaver management and investment fees subject to 15 percent GST, meaning KiwiSaver members would have less available when they withdrew funds to purchase a first home or at retirement; and does that remain Government policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cea006532e24c4889a2835bb0888e2a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister responsible for GST?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280edc2056000498aa18584367b3cd8ce\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022887a4e015c7744bd984a5c95b958fb44\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f1029b4cc5e4f46a34d94e7ac19a9e5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, you can speak to this one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db7b52d15a7040d88aee9385240737f3\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, the question asks whether or not Cabinet decided something. That is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2fcd19d707d45e9b6c4bd9bf5898a9b\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Ducking and diving.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022239437b3151a455d9a2bd7d74df082ad\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, gosh. I\u2019m ruling that question out of order. Part of it could go to the Minister of Revenue, part of it to the\u2014probably\u2014Prime Minister, who\u2019s responsible for the Cabinet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253eb6520ff00457492932a018916772b\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214e1bc667d1847418b15b4918c81a60a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A new point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff32a8fc3749484b9dc366b3d708bce2\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: The primary question is a very broad one in relation to economic and fiscal policy. That is well within the remit of the Minister of Finance. If the Minister of Finance is not responsible for economic and fiscal policy, it\u2019s a little bit unclear exactly who is. And the question is well within those realms. A taxation policy is fiscal policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e6c0d0ce7f34a239eb29d2251c31b96\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I disagree. You\u2019ve got a further supplementary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262ad6090bf1848a48d71a95d3706c2d1\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Was the Minister of Finance present at the Cabinet meeting that agreed to introduce a new KiwiSaver tax; and if so, why did that Minister support a tax policy that would reduce New Zealanders\u2019 retirement savings?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220199bb83f8a741b29cef2f7b35481339\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I was\u2014and this will be a massive revelation\u2014present at a Cabinet meeting where decision was made on the taxation arrangements around managed funds, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2ea072428c04d9ea6423eb4cc8e3cd4\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t it correct that the reason the Minister agreed to the KiwiSaver tax is that he was excited by the prospect of $225 million in extra revenue, fleecing the pockets of New Zealanders to feed his Government\u2019s addiction to spending?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245ae669694ae4e1abf0c2e32c90e82c8\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Much of that question is both hyperbolic and inaccurate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f483d22b2c24f5892533f846f9ace8b\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Was the Minister aware that the Financial Markets Authority advised the Government that the KiwiSaver tax would reduce KiwiSaver fund balances by $103 billion; and if so, why did the Minister of Finance agree to that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252a0aa66aca7415e97a1b11306024307\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: As already articulated, the questions the member is asking on the detail of the policy are best directed to the Minister of Revenue. What I can say is that on this side of the House, we take very seriously the responsibilities we have to support New Zealanders through their retirement. It\u2019s the reason, for example, why we have made contributions to the super fund in contrast to the previous Government, who denied New Zealanders $32 billion by not contributing to the super fund.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8ca7e92e10d404b83d32eaf97978d42\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: If it is, in fact, the case that the Minister does wish to look after KiwiSaver, doesn\u2019t he think it would be appropriate, as the Minister of Finance, that he stay across the detail of the new taxes that his revenue Minister keeps dreaming up?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268399ac108f347f1892701ea1d62adf4\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: On this side of the House, I am very proud of a Government that has managed, over the course of the last few years, to ensure that we have an economy that is bigger than before COVID, that we have a level of debt that is lower than most other countries in the world, that has unemployment at 3.3 percent. The Minister of Revenue and other Ministers have all contributed to that positive record for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229c80e855ef5c4f60ad9e74dced5635ef\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Housing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022 data-id=\u0022c921c5fb52114078aa702d6dcf77d46d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c921c5fb52114078aa702d6dcf77d46d\u0022\u003ETERISA NGOBI (Labour\u2014\u014Ctaki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing: What action is the Government taking to rebuild public housing in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00222d4bcc54bbbc4ceab67f05632da5c7b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d4bcc54bbbc4ceab67f05632da5c7b0\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E The Government is rebuilding New Zealand\u2019s housing safety net with the biggest State housing building programme since the 1970s. We\u2019re seeing the green shoots of progress, with the Government adding more than 10,000 net new public homes since 2017, including 8,240 of these being brand-new builds. To put this in perspective, of the 76,450 public homes in New Zealand today, over 13 percent, or 10,216, have been added in the last five years. This is a significant achievement when you consider the remaining homes have been amassed since the first State house was built in 1937.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271d724da278441069931f297542c3949\u0022\u003ETerisa Ngobi\u003C/span\u003E: What changes has the Government made that have enabled the rebuild of public housing in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc58c59a31904dd0aaa07c5adda3128c\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: There have been many changes made, from rebuilding capacity at K\u0101inga Ora through to increasing income-related rent subsidy funding by over 60 percent. But a significant change we have made is enabling the practice of reinvesting the income from K\u0101inga Ora into maintenance and building new homes. This stands in stark contrast to the $576 million in dividends that were extracted from, then, Housing New Zealand between 2008 and 2017.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbaae8d43f4a4eb0adfe3e3939e51ff8\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: How many of the Government\u2019s 10,000 new public homes are in Palmerston North?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b4a168e0bb84419a0752049f1542c01\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has already added 108 net public houses in Palmerston North since 2017. Unfortunately, we\u2019re yet to make up for the houses lost between 2008 and 2017, when there was a net loss of 115 public houses in Palmerston North. I\u2019m happy to report there are currently over 300 new homes in the pipeline, due to be completed by June 2025; approximately half of these homes are already in construction or contracted and all of which have received resource consent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a80fe0b6e2134825b89dd2bd3167a78d\u0022\u003EJo Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: How is Ashburton benefiting from the Government\u2019s 10,000 new public houses?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022480f67ba79b0407c9d327469bc6d4198\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m pleased to report that our Government has added 14 new public homes in Ashburton over the last five years, with 109 more houses to come by 2025, of which 15 are already under construction, contracted, and already have consents. This was an area where the previous Government did make some progress on: over nine years, they added two houses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a9f9ab9b3884e5889d3c7f08d99f217\u0022\u003EHon Meka Whaitiri\u003C/span\u003E: How many of the Government\u2019s 10,000 new public homes are in Gisborne?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228636ffcbfcdc4965bd113cc38c09049a\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: We have delivered 52 new public homes in Gisborne since 2017. Unfortunately, there was a net loss of 33 public homes in Gisborne between 2008 and 2017; we\u2019re working hard to undo this damage, with over 300 home builds currently in the pipeline, due to be completed by June 2025. This is the largest housing investment in Gisborne in decades; over 100 of these home builds already have resource consents, including 14 homes in Manuka Street and a further 21 homes on Gladstone Road.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226f0098a7e2d64d64ab7fbbc78c18d8d5\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u00229e0a2902561d413ca635bad6db6f04b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e0a2902561d413ca635bad6db6f04b2\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all her Government\u2019s statements and policies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u00228d108fce3c684d208b1cbeb32f85ef1e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d108fce3c684d208b1cbeb32f85ef1e\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223128d91af04e41299d36c3ba10b5f137\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does she stand by the Government\u2019s policy of introducing an equity index for school funding which \u201CConsiders 37 variables that we know relate to achievement, and is based on the circumstances of individual tamariki and rangatahi\u201D, with those variables being based on actual students\u2019 performance over the previous 20 years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u0022046f142851124c42a5c19824bbe38900\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022046f142851124c42a5c19824bbe38900\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I stand by the decision made by the Government on the equity index relative to the old decile system. The member will appreciate, when you are taking into account a number of variables, as the Minister has just described, for a detailed analysis, either questions on notice or to the direct Minister responsible will always be much more edifying for the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bef10fd649241a1a1c606a0a311999b\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Government using just one variable, being ethnicity, to determine access to certain types of healthcare instead of targeting healthcare funding to those most in need, based on up to 37 variables, like it\u2019s doing with education?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022424b94326cd841a88cd2f654fd79cd0b\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: If what the member is trying to claim is that the M\u0101ori Health Authority, for instance, isn\u2019t taking into account the history of our health system, where we have consistently underperformed and underserved M\u0101ori, to therefore describe why we shouldn\u2019t have that authority, I have to say, I firmly disagree. The evidence already demonstrates that on the old system, where we had, of course, service provision that was provided under 20 district health boards, we had outcomes that demonstrated we were poorly serving M\u0101ori. No one can disagree with that. Our view has been that if we want to improve, we need to change the way the system is delivering services for M\u0101ori. I would hope the member would come on board with that system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267f3d60671054574afd30ff415e4af14\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister accept that education in New Zealand has also historically and chronically underserved M\u0101ori students, and, if so, why is education but not health using an evidence-based, data-driven formula to target human need rather than ethnicity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b27f6df76a6e4ee0b0bd0ab1c44e5e40\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I would argue we are targeting human need. That demonstration of that is our data demonstrates that if you are M\u0101ori, your outcomes for cancer are worse for every single cancer except melanoma. That is data and evidence that our existing services are poorly serving M\u0101ori. If we needed any demonstration that doing things differently services our populations well, the COVID-19 response and the exceptional work done by M\u0101ori health providers was a proof point. I don\u2019t understand, frankly, why the member would be afraid to use M\u0101ori service delivery, where it is available, to try and lift health outcomes for M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022374ff049be5347f481e497d262a50628\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Why is Pharmac using ethnicity to determine access to diabetes medicine, the Ministry of Health using ethnicity to determine access to the flu jab, meaning that a well-off person, high in every other variable, might be put ahead of a poorly-off person, purely on the basis of just one variable, when education shows there\u2019s a better way to do things?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234f35eecb4944178b05eeac4ab99b58f\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I wish it weren\u2019t true that in New Zealand, health outcomes were worse for M\u0101ori and Pasifika populations, but, sadly, they are. If we are going to be data and evidence driven, we need to factor that in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226151b46c6e564097bcfdeb1a3a10819c\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u002230eca91f17c04aed8e6978dcd5250510\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002230eca91f17c04aed8e6978dcd5250510\u0022\u003EJO LUXTON (Labour\u2014Rangitata)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What support has the Government contributed to help schools to provide learning environments for their students that are warm, dry, and fit for purpose?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022bfa20d5a0bc24c0f868cdde7fb4ec143\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bfa20d5a0bc24c0f868cdde7fb4ec143\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E The Government\u2019s got a comprehensive programme of upgrading and expanding and modernising our schools. As of August this year, there are 313 Ministry of Education - led property projects in construction across New Zealand. These include nine new schools, eight new school expansions, 124 redevelopments, 38 redevelopment and roll-growth projects, 77 learning-support property modifications, and 57 roll-growth projects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afb528f64329463aa14a9de8b84c46f0\u0022\u003EJo Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: What, if anything, has been delivered, in terms of redevelopments and additional student places, from the spending?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203be23985a1a48609650069233acd5d7\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Twenty seven thousand, two hundred and ninety eight additional student places have been delivered through the building of schools and classrooms so far. This month, the Prime Minister celebrated the opening of a new 12 teaching space block at Waterview Primary School to support the school\u2019s growing roll. We\u2019ve also fully completed 62 major redevelopments worth over $460 million since 2019, and around half of these have been completed in the last year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220935f3fabc4b47ad9cb36a649b97ebd3\u0022\u003EJo Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: How is the Government ensuring that schools affected by the Christchurch earthquakes have access to safe, quality learning environments?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e4848967911474983a6a81c6283dc38\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The Christchurch Schools Rebuild programme is building new, rebuilding, or repairing 115 schools in the wider Christchurch area\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281a060985ae14ae890357c405d9dfee1\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: Thanks to National.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022161072f12b404db1a3e6b46a9d177f87\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014affecting around 45,000 students. The programme was, of course, started under National; it\u2019s a shame they didn\u2019t fund it. Seventy-eight schools are now complete, with 23 currently in construction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9f94765bc884760832328df4c418bd5\u0022\u003EJo Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: How are small and remote schools being supported to improve classrooms for their students?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c64f677c1244de7bc3f7d30bce9c842\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Back in September, we announced a programme to improve the internal environments of over 600 State schools that are in small or remote communities. This programme includes the installation of LED lighting, thermal blankets, acoustic panels, and residual current devices to improve the quality of those classrooms. Already, while it was only launched in September, 95 of those constructions projects have been completed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223cea99b36a364333b797ff50b912dcb5\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Revenue\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00221e88ca2f2e4b4132b618192c53125a4a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e88ca2f2e4b4132b618192c53125a4a\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Revenue: Is he committed to implementing the KiwiSaver provisions of the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2022-23, Platform Economy, and Remedial Matters) Bill; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c75f49e4237d4b568499f87077f265e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c75f49e4237d4b568499f87077f265e2\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c15348d4c0e497a9c1a0cb7d2af27b2\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: In what month and what year did IRD commence work on the proposal to introduce GST on KiwiSaver funds?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284139254d4884574bdf86ec0352c411a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not aware of the month, but I am aware that it was in 2017, under the last National Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234bbaf73a2bb4cbba2fadd1101e5cd22\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: When on 2 May the Prime Minister said, \u201CWe are not doing any work on any additional tax policy.\u201D, had he made it clear to the Prime Minister he would shortly thereafter propose to increase GST on KiwiSaver fees; and, if not, did he alert the Prime Minister after her statement on 2 May?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b475a7bf7d674ca8a7887a1179c6d9b3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: This was not a new tax; this was closing a\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a3b91f56fbd4af7ba866a488754c3f5\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b544d84a63642b3bf52358bdb30baee\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: GST is not a new tax; this is about closing a loophole. Currently, some providers of these services pay GST and their competitors don\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214940938ed4a43538b4186feb890dd74\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: On what date did he specifically discuss the proposal to put GST on KiwiSaver fees with the Cabinet committee, and was this recorded in the Cabinet committee minutes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fbb51cae51f40cbac99c126db5b4619\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Of course it was recorded. I can\u2019t recall the exact date, but it would have been the date when the policy decisions were taken on what matters would be included in the tax bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022793bcdfdccbd477c9221a7019e5907a8\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Pike River Re-entry\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u0022c62ed3908b024afe8f853fb946955c8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c62ed3908b024afe8f853fb946955c8e\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister responsible for Pike River Re-entry: What recent announcement has he made about support for families and communities affected by future significant national disasters?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u00221a4a2d2529cc4c7ca7fbda1eafed4942\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a4a2d2529cc4c7ca7fbda1eafed4942\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister responsible for Pike River Re-entry):\u003C/span\u003E Yesterday, I joined the Prime Minister; the Minister for Public Service, the Hon Chris Hipkins; and survivors of some of New Zealand\u2019s darkest days\u2014Aramoana, Cave Creek, Pike River, and others\u2014to launch new Working with Survivors model standards for the Public Service. Our public servants are motivated by a spirit of service, and the model standards will support officials with care expectations that apply the lessons of the past and provide for better support for survivors of future national disasters. The model standards were co-authored in true partnership with the survivors, led by the Stand With Pike Families Reference Group, alongside Te Kawa Mataaho, the Public Service Commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a5882bbf9ba4d1983b1a7a7079b6fe1\u0022\u003ERachel Boyack\u003C/span\u003E: What are the expectations in the new model standards?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ea403bc21e443b6bb3f729ff5ca89ea\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: The expectations require Public Service agencies to commit to following and supporting the journey survivors go through following a significant national disaster. In the immediate aftermath, it\u2019s about the necessities of life and reuniting loved ones; next, it\u2019s helping with the adjustment to the new normal; and finally, it\u2019s about getting to the bottom of what happened, learning from it, and promoting healing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022860fe7d1dc9f48d9b90a37567cb3f2b0\u0022\u003ERachel Boyack\u003C/span\u003E: What principles did the co-authors apply for the new expectations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcc083c9cb4f46e0b7765b298e8b9a80\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: Three simple principles underpin the model standards. They are to: firstly, empower survivors; secondly, be up front; and thirdly, work together. Additionally, the model standards recognise survivors as including physically injured or psychologically affected people, bereaved and affected wh\u0101nau, and members of the wider community, including those based offshore.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022534075bc6db443a088dbb2ddfa7d131f\u0022\u003ERachel Boyack\u003C/span\u003E: Which Public Service agency is responsible for implementing the expectations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8f966c127424b2f9e78a74e17cf2692\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: The model standards are published by Te Kawa Mataaho Public Service Commission and apply to the whole of the Public Service. In the immediate aftermath of a disaster, the responsibility for upholding the standards sits with the lead response agency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218d7b10fbbf6453b83b0dcffcafc1e78\u0022\u003ERachel Boyack\u003C/span\u003E: What response has he seen to the announcement of the standards?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212c20648c33945bb90d42d63ab3c3538\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve seen a number of responses, including from survivors of Aramoana and Pike River. One was from the formidable Sonya Rockhouse MNZM, member of the Stand With Pike Families Reference Group, reflecting on her long journey from 2010 until seeing the model standards announced yesterday. Sonya said, and I quote, \u201CI couldn\u2019t see how we would ever get justice, but we did. Throughout all we achieved together and with the other Pike River families and our supporters, we got our voices back.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228949ab71e516431ebdb47594647173ee\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Police\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u0022f775233ab27142d8ae802c37377109f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f775233ab27142d8ae802c37377109f4\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Whangapar\u0101oa)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: Is he concerned by the 518 percent increase in ram raids since the beginning of 2018; if so, why has he not met with a single business owner who has been a victim of a ram raid since he became Minister of Police?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u002274474fbebbf74013b2be4276d7189a20\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274474fbebbf74013b2be4276d7189a20\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E In answer to the first part of the question, yes. In answer to the second part of the question, my focus in my first few months on the job has been getting out and about and meeting as many police and visiting as many police districts as possible, meeting key stakeholders, ensuring that I understand all of the various policy issues that police are grappling with, and ensuring that the police have the relevant tools that they need in order to combat the crime they are facing. I certainly intend to continue getting out and about and meeting with people, and that will include a greater range of stakeholders, including the victims of ram raids.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227088665da65f443f8d6bf54c03701134\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Wouldn\u2019t the Minister surely consider the victims of ram raids as being the most important key stakeholder?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022846327b6aadf4aa49deabacd1522028e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: They are certainly an important stakeholder, as are people who are the victims of firearms-related offending, as are people who are the victims of domestic and family violence, as are a range of other stakeholders that I will also be intending to meet with when the appropriate opportunity arises.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f52ea1d17ee542e195b0ffb28486d712\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Does he accept that this offending is being done predominantly by youth gangs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222abfcf2963374258ac93dd74e31362ff\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: No. The police would suggest that the majority of the people undertaking this type of offending are not people who are affiliated with gangs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f345cb288e54ef79cad3ba13e0fe3cc\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister make that statement in the House when it flies in direct contradiction to the police intelligence reports that say that this offending is predominantly being committed by youth gangs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d2ec4bd3a8d4f10a89b0fc8c17ac5df\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not sure that that is what the reports have actually been saying. In fact, the conversations I\u2019ve been having with police suggest that that is not the case. I can also tell the member that the number of repeat offenders undertaking ram raids is actually declining, which in itself is a concerning statistic because it suggests that there are more young people getting involved in this type of activity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228128bbbf96ba43f3921014bba5c30beb\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: So is the Minister telling this House that his advice from the police is that these ram raids and youth offending is not being driven by organised youth crime and youth gangs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022217d5ec74ac143898a70427865812c8f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: That is the advice that I\u2019ve received from police, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266bfd162320f415cacb7162464fc8687\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member has run out of supplementaries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e791d0188c434313a774ac286d17105d\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I seek leave to table an Official Information Act request from a New Zealand Police scanning report on ram raids.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276c14e90c6064333aebca8d2a0e76e81\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? It may be tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a597daa47a8f4d16b345aedc9f8ac92b\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Foreign Affairs\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9a2cf9d5609429ebc80427135e96a17\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9a2cf9d5609429ebc80427135e96a17\u0022\u003EIBRAHIM OMER (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Foreign Affairs: What recent announcements has she made about delivery of the $1.3 billion Government climate finance investments?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u00223cd4cb9697e24abea7a30ab4e4fc7831\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223cd4cb9697e24abea7a30ab4e4fc7831\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E While visiting Tonga and Niue this month, I launched Aotearoa New Zealand\u2019s New Zealand International Climate Finance Strategy - Tuia te Waka a Kiwa. Fifty percent of this fund will support the Pacific, and 50 percent will go towards adaptation. The strategy sets out key principles and goals that will shape our climate finance investment over the next four years. This approach further strengthens New Zealand\u2019s partnership with the Pacific and supports locally led solutions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a291eac9eae8420ba3be5044d37dd4ba\u0022\u003EIbrahim Omer\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the strategy emphasise a partnership approach to climate finance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022759d699249f643588e2df8c15872ad41\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: We know that many communities have been living with changes in their environment for decades and are best placed to develop their own solutions and adaptation plans. This is certainly true for the Pacific. For example, Tonga has put in place a climate change fund Act to manage and prioritise its projects. So our partnership approach might involve funding countries\u2019 own adaptation plans or supporting locally led projects to promote community resilience to climate change and disasters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a21d0683399468fa15555430067267c\u0022\u003EIbrahim Omer\u003C/span\u003E: How will this partnership approach to climate finance work in practice?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1216f32241d47f4bd569209de890127\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: I can give an example: while in Tonga, I announced Aotearoa New Zealand\u2019s new contribution of $8 million to Tonga\u2019s climate change fund. In line with our partnership approach, this will be directed to Tonga\u2019s own priorities, such as projects to strengthen the resilience of public infrastructure, enhance coastal protections, and develop sustainable agriculture. I\u2019d like to also acknowledge the significant contribution of women and young people, who I met in Tonga, tackling their communities\u2019 climate challenges.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227760e43502f44d0e8b48b9b2aae4aada\u0022\u003EIbrahim Omer\u003C/span\u003E: How will the climate finance strategy support the Pacific in responding to the impacts of climate change?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e5662072c3e4445a8af66ae40311e25\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve seen time and time again the serious threat climate change poses to the Pacific Islands. We\u2019ve sought feedback from Pacific partners in shaping the principles and goals of this strategy, such as enhanced resilience and adaptation to the impacts of climate change, promote accelerated climate change mitigation, improved institutional capability, and evidence-based decision-making, leveraging our investment by working with other donors to ensure greater climate impact. Our strategy will support their decision making by providing greater access to, and use of, education, science, indigenous knowledge, and local techniques to combat climate change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddef795fb39c409ba7c86bf8d6d07e61\u0022\u003EIbrahim Omer\u003C/span\u003E: How will New Zealand\u2019s climate finance build Pacific resilience?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5af23815a4d4dabad96b5a073496831\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: Building resilience is woven throughout the climate finance strategy, and will be a key focus of our investment in the Pacific. An example is the $10 million allocated in July to the Fiji-based Centre for Pacific Crops and Trees, which is conserving the region\u2019s collections of 17 crops, including yam, coconut, and 70 percent of the world\u2019s taro varieties. This investment will increase the Pacific\u2019s resilience by ensuring our region\u2019s seeds and plant materials are preserved and protected for future generations. This investment will help to restore heritage crops, as was the case after the Hunga Tonga-Hunga Ha\u02BBapai volcanic eruption that occurred earlier this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022869eb78eee5d47c08d20c8ee410d8e26\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Education (School Operations)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00220665742dfce8499f9b52ef8c6be01d59\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220665742dfce8499f9b52ef8c6be01d59\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Education (School Operations): Does the Ministry of Education meet the full cost of learning support needs for tamariki in Aotearoa?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u00223748a0fda2f0414cbe529abda445431e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223748a0fda2f0414cbe529abda445431e\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Associate Minister of Education (School Operations)):\u003C/span\u003E We know that there are some unmet learning support needs for some tamariki and rangatahi in Aotearoa. As Associate Minister of Education, I have been very open about that. While we have a suite of evidence-based interventions and supports available, part of the challenge is understanding the individual needs of students and finding the right intervention at the right time. This is why I commissioned a comprehensive review into the support needed for students who are considered to have the highest needs for learning\u2014and need support as an intervention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4017a038f444c5387e2912399146839\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Ministry of Education meet the full cost of teacher aide wages?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f3e947ba5804a12bad467e0367bd0b2\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: As I\u2019ve said, we know that there are unmet needs for some tamariki and rangatahi in this country. As such, that is why I have commissioned this Highest Needs Review, which will report back to me shortly. I will be taking recommendations through to Cabinet in October.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6084e3a777649ac998b3e8b1cf4e505\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: Does she think it\u2019s reasonable for parents and school communities to fundraise for a shortfall of teacher aide funding?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4536c5757c74b968b3d1de5ced142bb\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: This is exactly why we have commissioned the review into our highest-needs students in this country. Schools may draw from a variety of funding sources, including operational grant funding, in addition to that provided by the ministry; there\u2019s also funding provided by other agencies and locally raised funds. I will point out that it is inadequate when we hear of those stories of parents supporting teacher aides at that time\u2014it is something that is actually illegal; exactly why we have the High Needs Review in train.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022079c11003df94633aabcb4751964d728\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: Is she committed to ensuring all students with additional learning needs receive fully funded support to enable them to thrive at school?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6e2cec1d4e645b1a9e323551b5f8cba\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: We know our Government is committed to barrier-free access to education for all students. But we do know that there is more work to do to address the fact that some students aren\u2019t getting the right support they need and when they need it. This is exactly, as I say, why we have commissioned the High Needs Review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad3aac9dc7a8472992205c3102055ba8\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: Will the High Needs Review include changes to the funding model to ensure the needs of all children are met and to provide fair pay and good working conditions for learning support staff?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccb13ca263f44e6dadb3bedb69a1d47d\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: The learning support systems we have in place were established over 20 years ago and haven\u2019t been reviewed since then. While I don\u2019t want to go on what those recommendations will be when they come back to me, I have asked officials to be bold. We need to look at the system as a whole; we need to look at a system that works around the young person with that person at the centre, not the young person working around the system. That includes the staffing who support that young person.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e61ce7c86d124cb693192abe7dd809d9\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with Te Tai Tokerau Principals\u2019 Association president that\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201CWe always need more support. Schools are used to putting rubber bands and stoppers around things, but we have so many kids with needs these days that it\u2019s becoming a bottomless pit.\u201D, and if so, what will she do to improve the support given to schools?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237e22731d8924215837c03330ddc701c\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: I have had many robust conversations with that particular president of the Tai Tokerau Principals\u2019 Association, and I will continue to do so into the future; I\u2019m quite certain of that. I have commissioned the High Needs Review, I await those recommendations, and I look forward to taking those recommendations through to Cabinet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022612dcb19b4cf44e68b7d59c4ba44ee76\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. Members will note that there are 11 oral questions today instead of the usual 12. I understand that, this morning, accidentally, the Office of the Clerk gave the M\u0101ori Party advice that they didn\u2019t have a primary question today, and, therefore, they did not lodge one by the deadline. I, therefore, seek leave for the M\u0101ori Party to be allocated an additional primary question to make up for that, that it be on a day of their choice, and that it be inserted into the line-up for that day as question No. 4, which would have been the question that they would have had today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cb56a5b7bb94a4f8f54841e8cb8f53a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There appears to be none. It will be so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c675485a443d46f48c6304bda2892ccf\u0022\u003EBrooke van Velden\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, am I able to speak to the point that the Minister has raised? I noted that a few of us have had correspondence with the M\u0101ori Party today. They were specifically wishing to seek leave tomorrow to ask a question. So I wondered whether we could actually delay this discussion until the M\u0101ori Party are here to speak for themselves on this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022862624293c954a7ba5a9366f5b7544bf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019ve already declared\u2014sorry. I\u2019ve already put the leave to the House, and there was no objection. The way the leave was put was that Te Paati M\u0101ori can, indeed, choose to have that question tomorrow, should they wish. So I think it\u2019s entirely up to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c448fff541584ffe904b51d11b6e9837\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002224432aa5eaca4e219fb1a9441f33df69\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad308826f89040dfbea49a6c1bf9aeb3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad308826f89040dfbea49a6c1bf9aeb3\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER LUXON (Leader of the Opposition):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of miscellaneous business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fca2e382a45449fb4419ab08d3736d6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I call the honourable\u2014Christopher Luxon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022017d7acd093c410482e269375065570a\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Honourable\u2014I like the sound of that, Mr Speaker. Yeah.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EYou might have heard that I am a big fan of LunchMoney Lewis. I know his song \u201CBills\u201D, and his song \u201CBills\u201D is speaking to New Zealanders up and down this country right now. I promise you, Mr Speaker\u2014and I also promise Mr LunchMoney\u2014that I won\u2019t sing the song again, because it wasn\u2019t the strongest rendition; I\u2019ll say that. But, you know, when he says, \u201CI got bills I gotta pay. I got mouths I gotta feed. I\u2019m going to work, work, work every day\u201D, Kiwis up and down this country really know what he\u2019s talking about. He is speaking to them. But, sadly, this is a Government that is not speaking to them, or not understanding where they\u2019re at, at all. Because if they had been thinking about them, they wouldn\u2019t have introduced a KiwiSaver tax last night, and then they wouldn\u2019t have withdrawn it this morning\u2014as LunchMoney would say, he would love anything that\u2019s gone by lunchtime, so well done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EHere\u2019s the deal: we have a Government that is so honestly the political equivalent of The Office, we only have to look at the last 24 hours to imagine what shenanigans have gone on behind the scenes to get to this fantastic decision today. It has demonstrated, yet again, that it is so completely, utterly out of touch with everyday working New Zealanders and where they\u2019re at, and it\u2019s just stopped listening to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003ELast night, I had this great Facebook comment from Jessica from Rotorua, and she said, \u201CWhen does it end with the tax? No wonder the working middle class can\u2019t get ahead.\u201D And today, what happened? Jessica and many Kiwis like her, they woke up and they worked out the Government\u2019s busy trying to fleece them out of their hard-earned cash yet again. And she\u2019s right, because, you know, think about it: we\u2019ve had a car tax, we\u2019ve got a fuel tax, we\u2019ve got a jobs tax, we\u2019ve got a tenant tax, and now we\u2019ve got this KiwiSaver tax that was on/off, on/off, now off again, and everyday Kiwis just can\u2019t get ahead. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003ELet me tell you what they\u2019re going to keep doing: they\u2019re going to keep dreaming up cunning new taxes. Because you can just see David Parker talking to Grant Robertson, saying, \u201CI\u2019ve got a new cunning plan. So cunning you can put a tail on it and call it a weasel.\u201D You can see it. You can just imagine the conversation as they beaver away at lots of new ideas about how they can get even more taxes. And the bottom line is they have to do that, right? They have to do it because they\u2019re so addicted to spending. They love their spending and they\u2019ve spent so much, and yet they\u2019ve also achieved so very, very little. I think they\u2019ve developed a very perverse and unique skill: this Government is uniquely able to spend more money\u2014in fact, $51 billion more than five years ago\u2014and at the same time hire more people\u201414,000 more bureaucrats here in central Wellington\u2014and at the same time they\u2019ve got worse outcomes in every single portfolio across the House. I think we\u2019ll just go through a few. I could go through all of them, but let\u2019s just take a few. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003EI think the economy\u2019s a good place to start, because Grant Robertson\u2019s here; he stayed around. We\u2019ve got to give him credit for that; it\u2019s fantastic. But you\u2019ve just got to look at his delivery of the cost of living payment over the last 24 hours. That mismanagement just sums up the mismanagement of our economy. And you\u2019ve got to remember, first and foremost, it isn\u2019t his money, this cost of living payment that he\u2019s designed. He\u2019s got such disdain for taxpayers\u2019 money that he actually makes this scheme up on the fly, under political pressure, against the advice of officials, and then he sprays the cash around to French backpackers and investment bankers in London and even dead people\u2014yeah\u2014and prisoners, I think, as well. The Auditor-General then slaps him down very publicly, like we\u2019ve never seen before, saying, \u201CHey, listen, not a good use of public money.\u201D And you think: can\u2019t you just apologise to the New Zealand people and say, \u201CMaybe I kind of got that one wrong, really sorry about that.\u201D? Maybe you could tell us how many ineligible people actually got it\u2014would be quite useful. I\u2019ve got to tell you, it wouldn\u2019t have happened under Nicola Willis\u2019 watch. But that\u2019s what it is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s look at health. Shall we look at health? That\u2019s another good one, because every single health outcome has gone backwards under this Government\u2014every single one. People are now spending entire days waiting for the emergency department, just to see somebody. The numbers of people waiting for surgical weight loss have actually doubled. You\u2019ve gone from 1,000 to 36,000 Kiwis waiting more than four months to see their first specialists. And we\u2019re actually now short 4,000 nurses, 1,500 GPs, 1,500 specialists. It\u2019s amazing! These guys cannot deliver any outcomes whatsoever. And their answer is: Wellington knows best, let\u2019s build bureaucracy, let\u2019s not invest in the front-line services\u2014let\u2019s build more bureaucracy. What we need is a real doctor running health, not a spin doctor. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003ESo I could go on, and I would love to go on, but what I will say to you is that we fundamentally now have a Government where\u2014we know the drill\u2014they are spending so much money, so they need to keep working away and beavering away and coming up with cunning new taxes because they\u2019re so addicted to spending. They\u2019ll talk about openness and transparency, but they don\u2019t deliver it. Here we see a massive, chronic U-turn from this Government around a KiwiSaver tax, and long may the U-turns keep coming, because there\u2019s a lot more taxes to unwind from here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7c543329feb4db5891c604db26ae074\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7c543329feb4db5891c604db26ae074\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Deputy Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Many MPs will be familiar with the game that the press gallery like to play in Parliament, called \u201Cthe rule in, rule out game\u201D. There\u2019s an issue of the day and you\u2019re asked whether or not you\u2019re going to rule it in or rule it out. Sometimes it\u2019s quite a difficult game to play\u2014you might not have made your final decision on a very complex policy issue\u2014but Christopher Luxon got asked the very easiest rule in, rule out question of all time: would he work with Brian Tamaki?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ENow, Mr Luxon couldn\u2019t answer that question. The question I\u2019ve got for Mr Luxon is: did he not take the clue of the so-called people\u2019s court that took place outside Parliament, where Mr Luxon, among other people, was convicted of crimes against humanity? But apparently, no. Now, this question was so easy, David Seymour got it right\u2014that\u2019s how easy the question was. But no, Christopher Luxon ploughed on, he doubled down, he said he wouldn\u2019t rule it out\u2014he wouldn\u2019t rule it out. All that does is tell you just how out of touch and out of his depth Christopher Luxon is. Because if it\u2019s giving tax cuts to the wealthiest New Zealanders, if it\u2019s his stance on abortion, if it\u2019s the cuts to public service\u2014all of those things put him out of touch. But his response to that question shows just how his political inexperience is affecting him and the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo now we\u2019re left with the prospect that, if in the unlikely event National were to get into Government, Brian Tamaki would be there, and he would have to decide what portfolio to give Brian Tamaki. Now, this would be a tough question: would a self-styled apostle accept deputy leader? Would they do that? Or would he offer him something that he has experience of, like Minister of Courts, for example? Or would he put him in charge of finance, given his experience in tithing? But no, I think I know exactly the role that Christopher Luxon would end up giving to Brian Tamaki, and that is the role of Minister with responsibility for the Earthquake Commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ENow, this might surprise one or two people, but I want take you back to 2016, where Brian Tamaki, in talking about homosexuality, said, I quote, \u201CNo other sin in the whole Bible has any connection to earthquakes, floods, and volcanic eruptions,\u201D. That\u2019s who Christopher Luxon wants to work with. That\u2019s who Christopher Luxon wants to bring inside his Cabinet. I think, on this side of the House, we know exactly what that means: Mr Luxon will do anything whatsoever, he\u2019ll compromise any value, he doesn\u2019t care. Once again, we see the impact of his political inexperience.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ENow, everybody in the House knows that I enjoy taking the mickey out of a National Party leader that makes a colossal cock-up like this, who shows their inexperience. But I actually want to say something serious to Mr Luxon: doing what he has done gives legitimacy to the most extreme views in our community. Doing what Mr Luxon has done gives confidence to those who have threatened and harassed our health care workers, our journalists, many politicians in this House, and citizens around New Zealand. What Mr Luxon has done, by failing to rule out Brian Tamaki, undermines the inclusive and accepting society that I would have hoped he would have been part of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ENow, it\u2019s probably in the Labour Party\u2019s interest for Christopher Luxon to go on deciding that he does not want to rule out Brian Tamaki. I am pleading with Mr Luxon to do the right thing. Do not say to young, gay New Zealanders that they don\u2019t matter. Do not say to the women of New Zealand that they don\u2019t have a place in leadership. Because, Mr Luxon, you will be judged by the company you keep. You have a chance and you have an opportunity to stand up for New Zealanders\u2019 values. Do the right thing, Mr Luxon, rule out working with Brian Tamaki, or else New Zealanders will continue to believe you stand for extremism, you stand for bigotry. Rule out Brian Tamaki.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8307a95beed4ba7b65ae7c2f8afc011\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8307a95beed4ba7b65ae7c2f8afc011\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E He\u2019ll have to do a lot better than that, because the country\u2019s going backwards at a rate of knots, and all the Minister of Finance wants to do is platform the rantings of a crazy pastor who no one wants to engage with. Why does he want to do that? Because this is Labour\u2019s day of shame\u2014this is their day of shame. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ELook at them over there: shame-faced, caught red-handed with their hands in New Zealanders\u2019 KiwiSaver accounts. Look at them averting their eyes, lowering their heads\u2014oh, \u201CNapoleon\u201D is looking\u2014because they are ashamed of what their finance Minister tried to do. He, in concert with the Minister of Revenue, thought, \u201CYou know what? I\u2019m addicted to spending. I can\u2019t make the books balance anymore, so where am I going to get the cash? I\u2019ve run out of my own money, so I\u2019m going to go after New Zealanders\u2019 KiwiSaver.\u201D And what they did: they cooked up a tax, they put it through the Cabinet, they agreed to it, and they thought, \u201CYou know what? Let\u2019s sneak it through. We don\u2019t need to tell anyone we\u2019re doing it.\u201D So they put out the press release, but did they talk about the extra tax? Did they talk about the $225 million they wanted to take? Did they talk about the $100 billion they wanted to wipe from New Zealanders\u2019 KiwiSaver funds? No, because those sneaky members of Parliament thought they could get this one past New Zealanders. They thought they could hoodwink them, but we caught them red-handed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThe Minister of Finance can rant and rave, but none of it will hide the skid marks from the massive U-turn that was executed at lunchtime. None of it will hide the stain of distrust that will remain in this Government, because New Zealanders know that they tried to sneak through a new tax. Because first\u2014that\u2019s right\u2014they came for New Zealanders\u2019 back pockets\u2014the inflation, the robber that it is, eating holes in those back pockets, forcing New Zealanders to pay more tax\u2014but they weren\u2019t satisfied with that. Then they came for New Zealanders\u2019 petrol: they added a tax to that. Then they came for their utes, and they added a tax to that. But such was the insatiable appetite for yet more wasteful spending that they came after your savings, too. This is a Government, bear in mind, that campaigned on \u201Cno new taxes\u201D, but, in reality, the Minister of Revenue has a special unit of bureaucrats burrowing away right now in the Piketty unit, dreaming up yet new ways to fleece New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EI will say to you: National will not abide it. We will not let them sneak these taxes through; we will oppose them, we will find them out, and we will stop this happening. We will not allow a midnight assault on your savings, a mounting of the guard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ENow, if the Minister of Finance thinks that what New Zealanders are talking about is the rantings of a pastor, I want to give him this email that was sent to the Prime Minister, and it was sent to me as well. This is from a Labour voter; her name\u2019s Rachel. She said, \u201CI am sick of working hard, paying taxes, trying to make a safe and secure future for my family, just to get constantly slapped in the face by you, the Government.\u201D That is exactly what this Government is doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders are faced with a cost of living crisis. Their wages have gone backwards in real terms. They have less money to spend on their families today than they did when that Government was elected. And what is this Government doing? Are they trying to increase the growth of this economy? Are they trying to raise incomes? No. This Government is obsessed with more spending. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ENational says that it is time that they learnt their lessons. The Auditor-General agrees with us, by the way. The Auditor-General wrote to us and said that this is a Government that has failed the test of good stewardship of public money, that they did not show due care in the way they designed and implemented the cost of living payment\u2014payments paid for by Rachel and other hard-working taxpayers, that went to French backpackers, foreign investors, and London backpackers. Will they apologise? Will they even find out how many payments were made and how much money was wasted? No, because they have contempt for the New Zealand taxpayers they are supposed to serve. Let\u2019s vote them out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8ad0bc88a5d4d688f1bf1caf553956f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8ad0bc88a5d4d688f1bf1caf553956f\u0022\u003EHon AUPITO WILLIAM SIO (Minister for Courts):\u003C/span\u003E That was a lot of humbug, a lot of poppycock, coming from that member there, Nicola Willis. But the one thing I want to say about Nicola Willis is she sounds genuine\u2014a lot more genuine than Chris Luxon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve listened to Chris Luxon a number of times. I said to him, he would be a great leader, at the start. But you know, after listening to him for the last six or so months, he reminds me of the crown-of-thorns starfish. This is a starfish that secretes waste from all thorns. And that\u2019s what he\u2019s like. You don\u2019t know what you believe about the man. You know, he cries foul about the poverty of people here, but he doesn\u2019t know what it\u2019s like. He\u2019s not made any sacrifices. He sounds more like a John Key puppet, in my view. I mean, he said the other day on social media that he was on one part of the country when he was sunbathing in the other part of the party. This is a man wanting to be the leader of this nation. I\u2019d say bring back Judith Collins. At least you knew where she stood. Or bring back Mark Mitchell. At least Mark has some sympathy for working-class communities out there. But that man there has no, nada, nada whatsoever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003ELook, if we\u2019re serious on sides about the cost of living, then let\u2019s acknowledge that there are people who are in need of help and there is no easy fix to the cost of living. But we, as a Government, continue to move forward. I announced not too long ago in this House here that in terms of Pacific peoples, we had over 1,000 people who have benefited from Tupu Aotearoa and have gotten jobs\u2014high-value, high-paying jobs. That is the solution. Not the punitive proposals that they\u2019re saying\u2014to condemn, to blame\u2014but more encouraging and providing positive pathways: 1,400 young Pacific not in education, employment, and training have gotten positive pathways. But the package of the cost of living\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa642401700147e8b0b3281c06a954b5\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: How many?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ded4051e14d43d9b3370f848e95465d\u0022\u003EHon AUPITO WILLIAM SIO\u003C/span\u003E: Hush up, Mr Brownlee. Listen and you might learn something. Hush up, Mr Brownlee. You might learn something about people who are striving to get ahead, and this is the Government that is investing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003ENot too long ago, nine long years of the John Key Government, what did they do? They gutted the public sector. They gutted the public sector. And they call themselves sympathisers of working-class people. That is not the case; that is definitely not the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003ESo short-term cost of living payments are up, and we\u2014the other day, a young, involved nurse said to me, \u201CThank you very much, Jacinda and your Government,\u201D for the money that they got to top up during the winter. She earns less than $70,000. Now, here\u2019s the thing: we are supporting the needs of the working communities out there. But we shouldn\u2019t have to be subsiding this long term\u2014because, in essence, that\u2019s what we\u2019re doing: we\u2019re subsidising the need. But when the profits are made, who gets to keep that in their pockets? And that\u2019s that lot here [points to Opposition benches] that continue to champion those inequities, because that\u2019s a system that allows for inequity to be maintained.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve had, the other day, an older man who is retired say to me, \u201CPass on to your Prime Minister our gratitude for the transport subsidies.\u201D Because they\u2019re able, now, to travel: visit grandkids from South Auckland to West Auckland, without having to worry about the out of pocket. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003ESo when this lot here are crying foul all the time, that just shows how insensitive they are and that every time they\u2019re talking about understanding the needs of working communities, they don\u2019t know\u2014[pauses]\u2014waste\u2014I\u2019m trying to think in my head about the proper word to say on that one there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EBut I\u2019d say this is the Government that will continue to move forward in supporting the community and governing for all peoples, making sure that we\u2019re addressing the need\u2014and there are many needs of this community. But we\u2019re not shying away from that: housing, health, education, all of that. That\u2019s not what you can say about that lot when they were in Government last.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b398827c-6bf5-403e-90dc-ff03205302a5\u0022\u003EAnd what we know of the kind of colour that National always does is, once they\u2019re in, they gut it. You cannot say, on the one hand, that you\u2019ll give people tax cuts and on the other hand continue to provide social services for needs out there. That just cannot be done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022192555516e7a4b638986678b825b6fb6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022192555516e7a4b638986678b825b6fb6\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E How I did not miss being in this space, listening to the petty exchanges, finger pointing, and energy that goes in\u2014people just looking at each other instead of looking at the communities that we are supposed to serve\u2014the energy that we should be putting in serving the communities that actually have been doing it the toughest over the past few years, whether it has been through the inequality crisis that has actually been here for successive Governments, whether it has been the pandemic, or now the inflationary pressures that are seeing more families struggling to make ends meet. We should be paying attention to the fact that people all around the motu are doing their best to support each other and fill in the gaps where successive Governments have failed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EOver the past month, we have seen how, on the one hand, the National Party is hell keen to punish the people who are doing it the toughest by introducing punitive benefit sanctions, when all that they would do is put more people into hardship, starve people out so that they get any job no matter how unsuitable, despite overwhelming evidence that such an approach does not help to reduce unemployment. The National Party is running policy on vibes to punish people, and the Labour members were rightfully critical of this approach and calling out the potential of the National Party putting in place policies that would see disabled people starved out so that they could be forced into work. I congratulate the members for their energy in calling out National, but they should be looking at their own policies as well and the fact that we have a sanctions regime that is still run on vibes, that is not run on evidence, and that is punishing people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve heard over the past few weeks, when I\u2019ve questioned Ministers on this issue, that they have made sure to introduce some checks so that fewer people are sanctioned and, therefore, we\u2019re starving out fewer people, but one sanction is one too many, particularly when there is no empirical evidence of a New Zealand welfare regime that includes sanctions supporting people into employment. All we\u2019ve seen is a handful of overseas examples where maybe the sanctions regime helped, but all we know is that people are being put into hardship. I encourage all MPs in the House to talk to people on the benefit about their experiences with Work and Income, the threat that people are facing when it comes to that pressure of going to their appointments and knowing that, if they don\u2019t show up, they may have their benefit cut off. But we forget that, actually, this measure does not support our communities. Starving people out will not encourage them to show up at Work and Income to engage in services to see how they can meet their aspirations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EWe know that the Government\u2019s own advisory group, which gave substantive recommendations on how to overhaul the welfare system, was unequivocal that financial sanctions do not work and that, instead, we should be putting in place a system on mutual expectations. At no point was the report actually saying that what we should be doing is cutting people\u2019s incomes as a way to address the lack of trust that people may be having with our welfare system. So I hope that our Labour members in this House channel the critical energy they have for the National Party with their sanctions regime to look at their own policy, to finally introduce policies that support people and meet their aspirations, because we cannot rely on the status quo. We cannot rely on regulations that simply see a reduction in sanctions, because if the National Party gets back in, what we do know is that if their legislation hasn\u2019t changed, what they\u2019ll do is they\u2019ll ramp up those sanctions, they\u2019ll ramp up that punitive approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EWe have an opportunity right now, and Labour has an opportunity right now, with the mandate that they have got, to put an end to benefit sanctions once and for all, to support the communities who have been doing the mahi to support each other during the pandemic and recognise the diversity of contributions that they make, because employment isn\u2019t the only contribution that people are making right now. People are doing volunteering, they\u2019re doing care-giving, and our welfare system continues to not recognise those contributions as meaningful and as worthy of a life with dignity. I yearn for a system that recognises the diversity of contributions that people bring and that does not have a narrow approach of pushing people into low-paid work. Instead, I hope that our employment schemes such as Mana in Mahi support people into employment that pays at least the living wage. Everyone deserves a livable income, a warm house to live in, and the guarantee that they\u2019ll be supported by Government into employment that meets their aspirations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019ll continue putting pressure on Labour to own up to the values they showed when they were criticising National and to put an end to the sanctions regime once and for all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7aad72f9d2d48b3ba9843d20f27b5c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7aad72f9d2d48b3ba9843d20f27b5c6\u0022\u003EDr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E This debate started with Mr LunchMoney: \u201CI\u2019ve got mouths I\u2019ve got to feed. I\u2019ve got bills I\u2019ve got to pay. It\u2019s work, work, work every day.\u201D On this side of the House we take those lyrics to heart, and as a hard-working Government we do something about the mouths that people have to feed and the bills they\u2019ve got to pay. So exactly what are we doing about the mouths that people have to feed? We\u2019ve got lunches in schools, literally putting food into the mouths of children. I visited Glenavon School in my electorate last week and had a bit of a yarn with the principal. They get the lunches in schools there. The principal there, John Hunte, said it was fantastic. It worked brilliantly. The kids got fed. They came to school, they were happy, and they were enjoying themselves at school. And it was helping the parents\u2019 pockets. So that\u2019s the first thing we\u2019ve done in terms of schools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EAnother thing we\u2019ve done in schools to help those daily physical needs is we\u2019ve got period products at schools\u2014free period products for girls and young women at school. That\u2019s a cost that women between the ages of about 10 and 56, 57, or 58 have to bear every month\u2014the cost of products so that they can manage their periods. From time to time, it keeps girls out of school because their families simply cannot afford to pay for period products. What have we done as a hard-working Government? We have paid for free period products in schools so that girls can get their education, and we\u2019ve relieved a cost on the families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EWhile we\u2019re still talking about schools, there\u2019s the schools donations package we have. We made sure that if schools went for voluntary donations, then we would put money into schools\u2014$150 per student. Again, it\u2019s something that directly saves costs from parents\u2019 pockets and puts money where it was needed\u2014into the schools. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EIn terms of \u201Cbills I\u2019ve got to pay\u201D, that\u2019s exactly what the cost of living payment is about. It\u2019s an extra bit of money to help people pay their bills. We know that times are tough out there, so what are we doing? We\u2019re giving them a little bit extra to help them through these tough winter months. It\u2019s the same thing with the winter energy payment. It\u2019s an extra bit of money to ensure that people can pay their energy bills in winter and stay warm. All these things are helping people to feed the mouths they\u2019ve got to feed and to pay the bills they\u2019ve got to pay.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EWhen fuel prices were rocketing up recently, we looked at the impact on families. We looked at the impact on working people, and we said we needed to help. So we cut the fuel excise. We knew that energy prices were going up because of the war in Ukraine, because of supply chain issues. We decided to help people through the peak of it. Energy prices are dropping now, and that helps a little bit, but in the meantime we\u2019ve had the cut to the fuel excise. Alongside that we\u2019ve had half-price public transport, making it cheaper and easier for workers to get to work, for kids to get to school, and for people to get about the towns they live in. So we\u2019ve put in place all these measures that have helped people\u2019s back pockets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EAll those things, we are doing. Yet all the time that we try to help New Zealanders, what do we hear from the Opposition? Nothing but tax cuts and scaremongering around taxation. They complain that we are addicted to spending, addicted to spending, addicted to spending\u2014I don\u2019t know how many times I\u2019ve heard that. It is their one line. But let\u2019s talk about what taxation actually pays for. I refer the members of the Opposition to page 21 of the Inland Revenue Department\u2019s annual report\u2014the 2021 annual report; the 2022 report will be out soon. It tells us there what we spend our money on. We spend $24 billion a year on health, keeping New Zealanders healthy. We spend $16.6 million a year on New Zealand super, $16.3 billion on education. We spend $6 billion on transport and communication. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI challenge the Opposition, every time they say they want tax cuts, to tell us which services they would cut. Tell us which New Zealanders will have to do without health. Tell us which New Zealanders will have to do without education. Tell us which New Zealanders will have to do without welfare. That is the corollary of tax cuts, and it\u2019s chicken-hearted to scream for tax cuts but not say where they will cut services. Be honest, face up to the reality of what the Opposition is prescribing for New Zealand: austerity, nastiness, and people in trouble. That is why I am proudly part of this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u002249749a203a91400082e17ff4e6b4d265\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002249749a203a91400082e17ff4e6b4d265\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you very much, Mr Speaker. This is a Government that is falling apart. Yesterday, we had introduced to the House a KiwiSaver tax bill, and I said to the team when we found out about it, I said, \u201CI reckon we\u2019ll wait till Thursday and they\u2019ll do a U-turn. This is so crazy and so dumb, that\u2014after introducing a ute tax and a petrol tax and a tenant tax and a capital gains tax, and all the other taxes that Labour\u2019s introduced\u2014there\u2019s no way that this Government would slap a $100 billion tax on Kiwis at a time that KiwiSaver accounts are doing it a bit tough.\u201D I said, \u201CThere\u2019s no way. It is crazy. I\u2019ll give it until Thursday.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI was wrong, because where are we? Wednesday\u2014gone by lunchtime. The KiwiSaver tax? \u201CGone-burger\u201D. At 1.15: \u201CWe\u2019ve just put out a press release. Oh, we didn\u2019t consult properly.\u201D Even though it\u2019s been consulted on for literally months, the Government\u2019s invented a reason. And we know why: it\u2019s because 20,000 people\u2014and counting all the time\u2014have signed National\u2019s petition, because Kiwis are sick of being fleeced by this Government and they said, \u201CNo, enough is enough.\u201D So a humiliating U-turn by this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EAnd what have they got? Grant Robertson spent five minutes of a general debate speech in a personalised attack on the leader of the National Party. And then the second speaker in the general debate, William Sio, spent five minutes talking about Christopher Luxon. He\u2019s in their heads\u2014he is in their heads\u2014and they know that the National Party is back and they know that the National Party was not going to stand up for this addiction to spending that is the raison d\u2019\u00EAtre of this Government. The National Party is standing against Labour\u2019s big-spending, addicted-to-spending agenda.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EAs Nicola Willis said in her contribution, it shows a real contempt for taxpayers. Twice in the last two weeks have we seen a contempt for taxpayers. Once with the KiwiSaver tax, the $100 billion secretive, stealthy tax on New Zealanders\u2019 KiwiSaver accounts. And then the second display of contempt for New Zealanders was the cost of living payment. This is something that has to be seen to be believed: money that is being sprayed around the world. If you thought KiwiBuild was bad, \u201CKiwiSpray\u201D is even worse: money that is sprayed around the world, to French backpackers who were here 15 years ago who\u2019d forgotten they even picked fruit over summer in Cromwell, to wealthy investment bankers in London. And, look, some of my best friends are investment bankers in London. I\u2019m telling you now: they don\u2019t need $116 paid into their New Zealand bank account; they\u2019re doing quite all right, thank you very much. And, of course, dead people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo this shows contempt for taxpayers. Have we seen an apology? No. Have we seen any admission of failure or fault? No. Have we seen any attempt from the Government to find out exactly who is and who isn\u2019t getting this \u201CKiwiSpray\u201D payment? No, absolutely not. All we see is contempt and disdain for hard-working New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EBut while we\u2019re talking about U-turns, we welcome the Government\u2019s KiwiSaver tax U-turn. I\u2019m surprised it happened within the space of 24 hours, but there\u2019s a few other U-turns we need. I think the Prime Minister will be regretting her decision to make Chris Hipkins the new police Minister, or new-ish police Minister. We should be doing a U-turn on that, because we\u2019ve learnt that ram raids are up 500 percent, and I note that the police Minister didn\u2019t refute the premise of that question, as Kiri Allan, the justice Minister, did this morning. But then we had the extraordinary claim from the police Minister today that he\u2019s been too busy to meet with victims of ram raids, of which there were five overnight in Hamilton on Monday night, by the way. He\u2019s been too busy. Why? Oh, because he\u2019s been reading his paperwork and \u201Cvisiting important stakeholders\u201D. Well, what is a more important stakeholder for the police Minister than retailers who have been the victims of crime like ram raids? There is no more important stakeholder for the police Minister, and it shows contempt. So let\u2019s do a U-turn on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s do a U-turn on wasteful and inefficient and incompetent Government spending. This Government is fiscally incontinent. They\u2019ve never seen a tax they don\u2019t want to implement and they\u2019ve never seen a Government programme they don\u2019t want to spend more money on. Let\u2019s do a U-turn on the cost of living payment, but, more importantly, let\u2019s do a U-turn on this tired, hopeless, and useless Government, and kick them out of office as soon as we can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u00220438448d5465414caf32f9ee82065a89\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220438448d5465414caf32f9ee82065a89\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Two weeks ago, my electorate of Nelson and the wider Te Tau Ihu top of the South region was hit by devastating floods. Initially, the weather was forecast to hit Golden Bay and Westport. What happened next was an incredibly quick change in the weather and the emergence of an atmospheric river that hovered over Nelson CBD and caused three separate rain events. A number of homes were flooded, while more properties were affected by landslips, due to close to one metre of rain falling above the Maitai River; 500 homes were evacuated, many with only minutes to spare. There were many heroic rescues by our first responders, of people and of pets. Vast areas of Nelson lost power, while the main water pipe that supplies drinking water to Nelson was badly damaged. Despite there being water, water everywhere, for some people there was not a drop to drink. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EAcross the top of the South we have suffered hundreds of landslips. Many, many roads are out of action, and the clean-up and fixing of our roads will take a number of months, even years. I am delighted, today, that Waka Kotahi have opened State Highway 6 between Nelson and Blenheim. My huge thanks to Waka Kotahi for working around the clock to get this key link in our transport network open again for businesses and people to travel. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EWhile the sun has now come out, the situation in Nelson and across the top of the South remains serious. Our beautiful city was built on and around hillsides, some of which are now saturated and at risk of further slippage, threatening homes and infrastructure. Behind the sunshine lie a number of homes that had been red- and yellow-stickered and a number of homeowners and residents who will be facing a long road of insurance claims and upheaval in their lives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI want to put on record my thanks to all who were involved in the response and, now, the recovery from the impact of the floods in our region. Thank you to the civil defence staff and volunteers who staffed the emergency operations centre (EOC) day and night as a complex situation evolved over a number of days, requiring quick decision-making by the teams working through the night and under immense pressure. Particular thanks to those members of the EOC who were red- and yellow-stickered themselves but still came in to work every day to support their fellow community members. Special thanks to group controller Alec Louverdis; your quick thinking and decision to evacuate homes as a precaution saved our city from a worse disaster. Thank you to the city\u2019s contractors, first responders, public servants, local iwi, Fire and Emergency New Zealand, urban search and rescue, local police, Defence Force staff, National Emergency Management Agency staff from across the motu, the Red Cross, Waka Kotahi, our local councils, and our health and welfare workers. Collectively you stepped up to support our people, as you always do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThree and a half years ago our region suffered severely from the Pigeon Valley fires, causing devastation in the Tasman District. Our community stepped up then, and they\u2019ve stepped up again now. It\u2019s been heartening to see the community getting stuck in to support people who have lost everything, and in the ongoing recovery; the neighbours and volunteers who have helped with the clean-up and offered accommodation; the businesses offering free coffees and food; Murray and Wendy Leaning for always feeding people; Giving Aroha and Unite Church for housing our homeless wh\u0101nau; the Student Volunteer Army for coming to Nelson and helping to coordinate our volunteers; the many people offering baking, food, and supplies; and those who\u2019ve contributed to our mayoral fund to support people and businesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe recovery from this event will be a long one, and tough decisions will need to be made in the future about where we can and can\u2019t build and where new homes and infrastructure go. I want to acknowledge our mayors Rachel Reese and Tim King, Ministers Kieran McAnulty and Damien O\u2019Connor for their support for our region, and the Prime Minister for visiting and getting a good understanding of the situation on the ground. I also acknowledge neighbouring MP Stuart Smith and Marlborough mayor John Leggett, who are supporting their community as their roads are damaged from weather events again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThese events are becoming more common across New Zealand. It shows how important it is that we invest in decent infrastructure and that central government needs to work with local government on adaptation plans for the future. I know that our community and our region is a resourceful one, an innovative one, and we will get through this. My thanks again to everybody in Nelson and across Te Tau Ihu who are stepping up to support our recovery and the rebuild.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022 data-id=\u00229ab908247eee497ba442d83a0466f85b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ab908247eee497ba442d83a0466f85b\u0022\u003ECHRIS BAILLIE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Four months ago, I spoke to the House about crime being out of control and no one would believe it, but, in the last four months, things have got worse\u2014a lot worse. May: 50 ram raids; June: 37; July: 42. I hate to think what August is going to bring. But all of New Zealand knows how bad things have become in the last five years\u2014except for the Labour Government. There\u2019s also smash and grabs, assaults, burglaries, thefts of cars. You name it, every type of offence is increasing. The rhetoric often spouted\u2014that crime, overall, is on the downward trend\u2014is a fallacy, and everyone knows it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EI got an email just yesterday from a woman whose car was stolen. There\u2019s CCTV footage and enough evidence to catch the offender, but she was told just to go to her insurance company because police won\u2019t be following up. They simply don\u2019t have time to do their jobs while dealing with a 40 percent increase in mental health call outs and huge increases in domestic violence incidents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EJust throwing money in their direction isn\u2019t the answer. All Government agencies need to be working efficiently so we can allow police to do their core work, and we must fully support them. They haven\u2019t felt supported in five years. The soft-on-crime ideology is a failure. Eighteen months ago, I attended a meeting of almost 40 business owners and dairy owners in Auckland. They were crying out for help then and told us that the Government just weren\u2019t listening. Despite being invited, the absence of Labour, the Greens, and the M\u0101ori Party showed their priorities. Bollards would not be necessary now if action was taken earlier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EUnlike the current Government, ACT does put the victims of crime first, and, last week, we released our law and order policy, which addresses the causes of crime, offers alternatives, and, most importantly, looks after the victims\u2014and I\u2019d urge Labour to look at it. They liked our last one so much they stole a policy from it, but we don\u2019t mind, and I\u2019m really pleased for New Zealand that Labour now agree that we should take the politics out of policing, and police numbers should increase with population. It\u2019s a great idea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EHere are just a couple of other policies I\u2019d urge them to adopt as well. We need a review of the electronic bail rules. Using electronic bail as a means to reduce prison population is not only naive but dangerous. There are 6,000 offenders on ankle bracelets. Tampering with these bracelets has gone up from one per month in 2017 to 47 per month in 2021. There\u2019s been a 75 percent increase in child sex offenders on electronic monitoring. Fifty-three of these offenders have tampered with their bracelet. These are people ACT doesn\u2019t want on our streets. Labour is letting them out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EACT will introduce infringement notices to young shoplifters and make them physically work to compensate for their offence, so that the consequences of a criminal action are felt immediately. Failure to pay will result in a youth aid referral and Oranga Tamariki involvement. This isn\u2019t new. New Zealand has a world-class youth aid system, but they need to be resourced and staffed appropriately to make it work. Many times, I had young offenders cleaning police cars on a Saturday morning. Done properly, it works. Ninety-five percent of young people who enter the justice system for minor offences are not seen there again, and that\u2019s a great statistic. But they have to have had a consequence. Making excuses for their behaviour doesn\u2019t work. Young people want boundaries. I had a poster on my classroom wall for years, which read, \u201CYou are responsible for your actions no matter how you feel.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EHere\u2019s another policy that works, for Labour to think about: ACT will bring back three-strikes for serious violent offences. There are 13,000 offenders on the first strike; just over 600 offenders on the second strike; and 24 of the worst violent and sexual offenders in New Zealand serving their third-strike sentence. The fact that Labour doesn\u2019t understand how these numbers show that it actually works is quite bizarre. Every police officer I speak to wants three-strikes legislation. But we\u2019d go further and bring in three strikes for burglary. To be a burglar, you\u2019ve lost all empathy for your victims, and it must be treated more seriously. Most burglars are caught every 15 to 20 burglaries they commit. Get caught a third time, you serve the full sentence. That must be reassuring for the 289,000 victims of burglaries last year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll leave Labour with one more policy to think about: the Crown will pay the victims financial reparation, and the IRD will be tasked to get it off the offenders. There is $114 million is owed to victims, some getting paid 65c a week back, but, all too often, the victims are getting nothing. It\u2019s time we got serious about looking after victims and stopped pandering to the offenders. We think these policies are a great start.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u0022375c1135c2514f689b088de4c4379dc9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022375c1135c2514f689b088de4c4379dc9\u0022\u003EWILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai o te Whare, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. Tomorrow is 1 September, and it has been quite a hard winter for many people in Aotearoa New Zealand. We know it\u2019s hard; we know wh\u0101nau are struggling at the moment. Tomorrow marks 1 September, which is the day that the second payment will start to roll out to almost 2.1 million people. From tomorrow, wh\u0101nau will be receiving $116 in their bank account, if they earn under $70,000 per person in their household\u2014the second payment. When I asked those for feedback on the first payment, many said that they appreciated it, that they were able to use to it to put towards clothing for their children during winter, to be able to pay for those extra bills, and so I know that this payment will be welcomed by many, starting from tomorrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EIn terms of what this Government has been doing to alleviate the costs of living, because we know it\u2019s hard for wh\u0101nau at the moment: when we couple that with the reduction on the taxes for fuel for example\u201425c per litre\u2014that has been in place since April this year, saving families many hundreds of dollars when they are filling up their cars at the petrol stations. In addition to that, we\u2019ve had increases to Working for Families, to superannuation, to student allowance, and to main benefits\u2014again, from 1 April, benefiting over a million people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EWe have been doing significant work in the area of supermarkets to ensure that people are getting a fairer deal at the checkout. We have put in place the commissioner. We have ensured that we are able to have competition by stopping supermarkets from blocking their competitors. We have also looked at fair pricing for wholesale goods and that being passed on, for example. There is more work to do in that space, but I want to commend the Minister, who has been working hard to address one of those most significant areas where wh\u0101nau are feeling the impacts of the cost of living, and that\u2019s in our supermarkets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve also increased paid parental leave by over $40 per week. We\u2019ve had the winter energy payment, which I know many people have benefited from\u2014over a million New Zealanders benefit from the winter energy payment. That has got them through those extra costs of heating their house, to buy in wood, for example, and being able to turn on that heat pump so that they do not have to suffer in the cold months of winter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve also just celebrated two years of our free lunches in schools. We are providing over a million lunches to over 220,000 tamariki in 950 schools across Aotearoa. I have received direct feedback on the difference that that initiative alone makes for wh\u0101nau, those with two children, those with four children\u2014a significant cost to their families. We\u2019re so proud of that initiative because we know that tamariki with full puku are more likely to get better learning outcomes, and so I\u2019m proud that we are celebrating our second year of that initiative. One of the previous speakers referred to our free period products in schools, another initiative that I am extremely proud of. I know when we were advocating for this issue in Te Tai Tokerau, it is over $20 a month per person menstruating in the household. I had a father who I worked with, he had five daughters, so you know that those costs do add up quickly. So to be able to alleviate that and to ensure that there are no barriers to attendance\u2014I am so proud of that work that we have been doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EOn top of that, we have had minimum wage increases since 2017, which is now an extra $218 per week. GP visits are cheaper, and free for all children under 14. And I want to mention, because we have a baby in the House this afternoon: our Best Start payment is also providing an extra $65 a week for parents of newborns. These are all the sorts of initiatives that Labour has introduced to try and alleviate the cost of living pressures that are on our wh\u0101nau, not just this winter but in the last five years which we have had the privilege of being in Government: being able to make these Budget decisions, being able to set these policy initiatives to benefit a huge number of New Zealanders\u2014over a million on those main benefits. And with the payment tomorrow, which will start hitting those bank accounts, up to another 2.1 million people will be benefiting from that. I couldn\u2019t be more proud to stand on this side of the House with my colleagues, knowing that we are genuinely supporting Aotearoa New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022e05f5c98db2c4477b74a928d41a20000\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e05f5c98db2c4477b74a928d41a20000\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Well, what a day, what a change, and what a Government in disarray. You could just imagine what went on in caucus around about lunchtime, when everyone was sitting there at select committees and they got that memo from the Hon David Parker: \u201CWe\u2019re going to repeal that bill that we just introduced yesterday, because we got it wrong. Oops!\u201D You can imagine: \u201CWhat are we going to talk about in the general debate? Let\u2019s send out some notes to all the backbenchers who\u2019ve got to stand up there today, and sort of say what a great Government it is.\u201D Not one of them has mentioned the KiwiSaver tax blunder. It is a debacle. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EPoor old Mr Parker! Poor old Mr Parker introduced the comprehensive bill\u2014and we do them three times a year\u2014and, as he said in question time, he has already removed it from the ballot. It is a shocker. The interesting thing is that the reason he claimed that he suddenly had a come-to-Jesus moment, if I can put it that way, is that, God, he\u2019s had so many people, fund managers, come to him today and say, \u201CLook, you\u2019ve got to change it.\u201D So one of the interesting things is\u2014I wonder\u2014who those are, because, for instance, the Financial Services Council have been harping on to officials, and I presume to the Minister himself, for weeks, months, to say that this is a bad piece of legislation. In fact, they described it as an overreach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThen, today, Mr Parker talked about \u201CIt\u2019s all about the banks. That\u2019s why we\u2019re turning it over, because they\u2019re using a loophole.\u201D Of course, he\u2019s used that excuse once before, when he said that mum and dad investors, mum and dad homeowners who own a rental, are using a loophole because they\u2019re using interest deductibility, even though it had been the part of the tax system that you should be able to deduct interest against accessible income and that had been the tenet of New Zealand tax law since time immemorial. He decided it was a loophole.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EAgain, lo and behold, today, suddenly he\u2019s saying there\u2019s another loophole. I would just say to Mr Parker, just for the record: the convention of paying GST on 10 percent of fees has been agreed between the IRD and every fund manager for the last 21 years. So it ain\u2019t a little loophole that arose in the last five minutes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EAnyway, all of this from a Government that\u2019s introduced the ute tax, the extended brightline tax, the tenant tax, the light rail tax, the regional fuel tax, raised income taxes, jobs tax, and, of course, the one that they\u2019ve just stopped.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EOf course, I heard all the talks today from members saying, \u201CBoy, have we done a wonderful job. Well, we\u2019ve introduced the cost of living payment. We\u2019ve introduced the winter payment. We\u2019ve done all these wonderful things.\u201D But what these members do not understand is that the ordinary hard-working person in the street is now suffering just an insurmountable level of cost coming their way. Rent\u2019s up, fuel\u2019s up, food\u2019s up, and it just keeps coming.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe other thing is that businesses are just swamped by a tsunami of stress and pressure as this Government just keeps socking it to our small businesses. Our business owners\u2019 backs are up against a wall, and their mental health is also at risk. We don\u2019t hear that from this Labour Government. It\u2019s huge for our small-business owners and for the people that work in their business. What people want, what business owners want, and what people who work in those businesses want, is they want someone to have their back, look after them, think about them, allow them to get people from overseas to work in their business, and stop the added costs being rammed into them. All those big changes that keep coming: cost of labour, rising freight costs, supply line issues. And then the issue of crime: our 4,500 dairies, who are just continuously getting assaulted every day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EIt is tough, and all this Government wants to do is impose more costs like the fair pay agreements, which are not fair at all; impose a new workers\u2019 insurance scheme. The confidence of small-business owners has slumped. We need a change because, really, small-business owners are overworked, overwhelmed, and over Labour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3f3251cdace485eb197c0427959839a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3f3251cdace485eb197c0427959839a\u0022\u003EDr LIZ CRAIG (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. A couple of years ago on New Year\u2019s Day, I woke up to find the sky glowing orange and there was a smell of smoke in the air, and it was the impact of the Australian bushfires coming across the Tasman. A couple of months later, we found ourselves in the middle of a global pandemic, and I think back then it would have been hard to think\u2014fast-forwarding for two more years\u2014that we\u2019d find ourselves with the war in the Ukraine and the devastating impact that that\u2019s had on communities there. But we\u2019re also seeing some of the impacts of the heatwaves happening in Europe and looking at the artefacts that are now rising out of the rivers because there\u2019s been no rain in the heat. I think that all of those things seem really, really far away to us here in New Zealand, and yet all of them are having their impacts here with, basically, the rising cost of living, with fuel prices and food prices and the impact that it\u2019s having on families\u2019 budgets. So I\u2019m really pleased to be part of a Government that\u2019s taking steps to help people through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EI think about some of those immediate measures that we\u2019ve put in place in the last little while. Fuel: filling up the petrol tank is a huge cost for many families. So we\u2019re seeing the cuts to fuel excise tax and to road-user charges but also the half-price public transport, which has made a real difference in terms of people commuting and getting to work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003ELooking at the cost of living payments that have been coming into people\u2019s bank accounts and just making that small difference so that people can get ahead, I also think back to the situation we would have found ourselves in if we hadn\u2019t been putting in those things that we\u2019ve put in place over the last five years to help those on lower and middle incomes. Prior to coming into Parliament, my role was around advocacy for children\u2019s health and child poverty, and one of the things that we learnt was that it wasn\u2019t one single policy measure that meant that we had the higher child poverty rates that we had, but it was a series of decisions made over many, many years, with each one having a cumulative effect, taking that little bit away from families and their ability to make ends meet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003ELooking back to when we first came into this House as a Government back in 2017, I was so proud to be sitting in the House just before Christmas that year when we put in place the Families Package, when we increased Working for Families. But we also introduced the winter energy payment so that families could afford to turn on the heater during the winter, for those on superannuation and those relying on a benefit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EBut it\u2019s also really exciting. We\u2019ve got a baby in the House today, but seeing the Best Start payment\u2014back then, it was $60 a week for newborn babies in the first year, going through to the first three years for those on lower to middle incomes, and that\u2019s been increased to $65. So we\u2019re going to have families being able to have that little bit of extra support so that they can make those choices about whether they can stay home and care for their children in their early, formative years, or whether they want to go out to work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s where, again, we extended paid parental leave and provided that extra support for families so they\u2019ve got those choices. But then, as children grow up, we were also thinking about the costs that come in there, and so what we\u2019ve got is we\u2019ve got the free school lunches. I know that in our community we\u2019ve got many schools benefiting from those, with many parents now being able to send their child to school knowing that they\u2019re going to get a healthy lunch. But also period products: this is a very big expense for many in their teenage years\u2014again, being able to know that you can turn up to school and those things will be provided. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003ELow-cost doctors visits: again, back when we first came into Government, there was a real issue with the affordability of primary care. So what we\u2019ve done there is make sure that those on community service cards have low-cost access to GPs, because many of those things that you put off and put off end up with potentially a hospital admission, whereas you can see your GP early if you\u2019re not worried about that cost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EThe other thing that I think was really significant was the increases we\u2019ve made to benefits. This is something that underpins some of our historical trends in child poverty rates. We saw these big benefit cuts back in the early 1990s, so it\u2019s wonderful to be seeing the increases that we\u2019ve had to benefits\u2014particularly even this year, when they\u2019ve gone up significantly\u2014and also just the rises in superannuation as well that came in this year alongside those, and also indexing benefits to the average wage so that families relying on benefits don\u2019t fall further and further behind. We\u2019re also increasing the minimum wage significantly, so that gap between the minimum wage and the living wage has now narrowed significantly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003ESo there are a lot of things we\u2019ve done there which mean that as we move through these cost of living increases, we\u2019ve got families that are much better prepared because of all those things that we\u2019ve put in place over the last five years. The more recent things are really great as responses for now, but the things that we\u2019ve put in place over the past five years will make a real difference moving forward. Thank you, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223f00e28fad6640fa84765e2656553069\u0022\u003EHouse in Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229059cf8172d748b1848c3fc36b44bfd8\u0022\u003EHouse in Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa1308e8855c46968c407d4c73582ea9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa1308e8855c46968c407d4c73582ea9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Animal Welfare Amendment Bill, the Screen Industry Workers Bill, and the Plant Variety Rights Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002209e3f9043f394f25bd834168595fa89d\u0022\u003EAnimal Welfare Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220e102512cd0c4cd2bcaf3f8a5979bb51\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000310\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 23 August.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002255657056dc0a426dbd5fbe0b401383b8\u0022\u003ENew clause 2A, clauses 3 to 12, and the Schedule (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022d67b80967f3e4439a5968a1ef8a49738\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d67b80967f3e4439a5968a1ef8a49738\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to further consideration of the Animal Welfare Amendment Bill. I remind members that they\u2019re able to participate remotely. If you\u2019re on Zoom and want to take a call, please type \u201Ccall\u201D in to the chat. You should also use the chat if you want to raise a point of order. If we receive new tabled amendments, I\u2019ll advise members so they can refresh the House papers page to see the new amendment. Finally, it would be helpful for members to ask multiple questions if they have them of the member in charge during their call. When we were last considering this bill, we were debating the question that clauses 3 to 12 and the Schedule stand part. The question is\u2014I just need to take some advice on where we\u2019re up to on this bill. Right, I\u2019m on song, so I\u2019ll give the call to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0090a335be54373a276063df8cf3592\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I understand this was being taken as one debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00223ed8a3e54c704c969330b7bf5ebf9206\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ed8a3e54c704c969330b7bf5ebf9206\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u00222ec490a6055940a29f62d1f8db09c529\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ec490a6055940a29f62d1f8db09c529\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. This is the first time I\u2019ve spoken when you\u2019ve been the Chair, so I\u2019d just like to congratulate you as an ex-transport Minister\u2014rather, as a select committee chair. I note that you have a reformed hair cut as well to indicate a new look. I just wish you all the very best in that new position. Today has been a glorious day\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022631cdad14d914c20aa8fc6f1eb83078b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The member can come to the bill at some stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acd4ce3f1fd244ff9efd5d40a49bbce8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the bill is very close to your heart, I\u2019m sure. It\u2019s been a glorious day for the Opposition and for the public of New Zealand, because finally the Government has capitulated on an issue where\u2014like this issue here\u2014they\u2019ve had no real reason to do what they\u2019ve done in the policy dimension. The Minister, we all know, has had his hands tied by the leadership, which required him to do this. And he knows that in the sector there\u2019s a much better solution out there, and it\u2019s unfortunate that a Minister has had his role circumvented by the leadership of the party at the highest levels, but that\u2019s politics, I guess. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t expect the Minister to answer that affirmatively and acknowledge what has happened there. But we all know, and it\u2019s pretty widely accepted in the community what\u2019s happened. It\u2019s just a shame that in a time of sunlight, you could say, on the Labour Party that we\u2019ve seen in the last few weeks and today, we don\u2019t see more sunlight around this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf8e58d6e7f949fa97c778d8d4d496c3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Bennett, you can now start putting some sunlight on to the bill before you\u2014please\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022023bb03e3f324aa2939e02f5be5be52c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I will\u2014and much sunlight is needed. One of the questions I have for the Minister\u2014and this relates to why I was setting the ground as I did, Mr Chair\u2014is about the compensation that the Minister will give to farmers and to those in the sector. When blunt instruments like bans are imposed, there comes a period of time where people have relied on Government activity. They\u2019ve relied on the ability to act in a certain way over a period of time. They\u2019re relied on the good governance of the Government to actually act in a commercially fair and reasonable manner. There will be many who\u2019ll be thinking that that hasn\u2019t happened in this case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EI wish the Minister to answer that question. I don\u2019t want the answer that \u201CWe\u2019ve had two years and we\u2019ve given plenty of time, and it\u2019s been through consultation and everybody has known\u201D, and all those things\u2014and that will be line that the Minister will trot out. But they\u2019re not fair. Stock just don\u2019t miraculously arrive. It\u2019s a long process of breeding stock, raising them to a level where they\u2019re able to be shipped overseas. It\u2019s a long period of building up those markets. It\u2019s a long period of adjusting someone\u2019s business model to actually go into that business as part of what they do. So the standard answer the Minister will trot out about the fact that we\u2019ve had two years and the Government\u2019s made it clear simply isn\u2019t justifiable. So I want to know from the Minister what compensation will be out there, and what the mechanism is for people to get that compensation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThis is a blunt instrument. This is the same as GST on KiwiSaver. It\u2019s a blunt instrument, and the parallels are very similar\u2014the parallels of saying sorry and saying you got it wrong, and finding a solution are very similar as well. That\u2019s all the Minister has to do today\u2014stand up and say, \u201CI\u2019m sorry. I did what the leader told me, but things have changed in the Labour Party and I\u2019m willing to stand up for what\u2019s right now. And I recognise there will be people out there that demand compensation, and in all good conscience I can\u2019t carry through with this legislation. So I respectfully ask that it be withdrawn from the House.\u201D That\u2019s what the Minister could do, and he\u2019s had leadership in the Labour Party in the last couple of weeks of how to do that. We saw leadership from David Parker today around how to do that, as well. So the parallels are quite striking. The Minister will, as I said, trot out that excuse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u0022359c895334644324b047d42522925772\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022359c895334644324b047d42522925772\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Minister, for the opportunity to further debate this piece of abysmal legislation. In 2009, Minister, and this is as much a question as a statement, farmer confidence surveys were started by Federated Farmers, from 2009 to the present day. It has never been so low in the recent survey\u2014never been so low. Farmers are being faced with a myriad of legislative changes, including the live-animal export ban. I just want to rattle them off and you can cut in at any time when you\u2019re taking into consideration the $261 million that this bill and its revenue seems to remove from the primary industries: significant natural areas; He Waka Eke Noa; an emissions trading scheme; winter grazing; freshwater farm plans\u2014contextualise that, Minister, with $261 million leaving the industry\u2014a ute tax, and goodness gracious knows what that means; animal welfare reforms. Goodness gracious, yet again, a whole lot of unknowns. Again, contextualise that, Minister, if I may: $261 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EI used these words the other day: I wager anyone\u2014this is near on half a billion dollars leaving the industry. You worked incredibly hard to secure a free-trade agreement with the EU. Well, I argue half of it\u2019s gone with the implementation of this piece of legislation. There are chronic staffing shortages, Minister, in the primary industries. Yet again, $261 million is leaving the primary sector. How on earth, Minister\u2014we canvassed this last week and yet you chose not to answer directly\u2014does the primary sector reconcile that fiscal loss? This is a lot of money and an industry with absolutely no confidence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022131b655bc62645e7acd9aed284719ab1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022131b655bc62645e7acd9aed284719ab1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Ah, Nicola Grigg.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022 data-id=\u002285a7f82cf8a14424800d3fca202f96e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002285a7f82cf8a14424800d3fca202f96e0\u0022\u003ENICOLA GRIGG (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. There was a very slight hesitation there, Mr Chair! Look, thank you, Mr Chair, for this opportunity to resume this debate. Last I spoke on this bill, the Animal Welfare Amendment Bill, in this debate, I alerted the Minister to Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 204 in my name, in which the National Party put forward a proposal that we would insert new sections 48A and 48B, which outlines, effectively, that the director-general must review requirements to meet animal welfare standards for the export of live cattle within three months of this section coming into force.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003ENow, the logic behind that is that we are very firmly of the belief, and we believe that the industry supports us\u2014and actually we believe that the Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI) supports us\u2014that actually, with the right regulation, this can become a world-leading industry whereby the safe, humane transfer of livestock can occur, thus putting New Zealand at the forefront of this international industry and setting the standard, importantly, globally for other nations to follow. Unfortunately, the debate was interrupted, so I never got a response from the Minister as to whether or not he had considered SOP 204, because we think it actually gives a number of opportunities for the Director-General of MPI to, firstly, review the legislation, review whether or not it\u2019s fit for purpose, and importantly, review what opportunities there are to restart this export industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, as I say, Supplementary Order Paper 204 has, apparently, not been considered. So I want to turn the Minister\u2019s mind to Supplementary Order Paper 205 in my name, where, if he weren\u2019t to consider whether or not the director-general should carry out a review and look at a permissive or exemption-type regime, perhaps they could start to look at another requirement whereby we would be allowing for a permissive regime for exporters to be able to apply for approval of animal welfare certificates. When I spoke in the last debate, we talked about the fact that the National Party would put up opportunities for certification, for exemptions, for permissions\u2014all of which have been shouted down, unfortunately, but the reason we are going to continue to prosecute this case is because we believe MPI has been lobbying for at least two years for a regulatory framework to regulate, to license, and therefore to enforce.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EWe know that this ministry knows that this is a viable option. We know that this ministry is working with a number of New Zealand exporters. We know that they accepted the recommendations brought down by the Heron report that followed the sinking of the Gulf Livestock 1 in 2019. Unfortunately for the ministry, thus far it has not had the levers, so to speak, to pull to enforce these kinds of permissive regimes. So we do ask the Minister: of any of the Supplementary Order Papers that he\u2019s going to consider, would he consider No. 205 and look at the possibility of bringing in a regime that would allow for applications for approval of animal welfare certificates?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u00227df6b969ac0b40969531ea619fac79e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227df6b969ac0b40969531ea619fac79e4\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, thank you very much, Mr Chair. Minister, it\u2019s a good day to rise and ask questions on this because we have seen the Government is capable of doing backflips on dumb policy. So earlier today, in less than 24 hours, the Government did a backflip on the KiwiSaver tax. And I see Minister Michael Wood is also in the Chamber, and he\u2019ll be very familiar with the backflip on the fantasy cycle bridge in Auckland. So this Government is developing a bit of trajectory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EBut why doesn\u2019t the Minister do the same thing, because the Minister knows, surely, that this is a dumb bill? It\u2019s going to cost New Zealand about $475 million a year. How is the Government planning to pay for the things that we need\u2014like our schooling system, our health system\u2014if they\u2019re increasing taxes, making it harder for businesses to do business? This is exactly what this bill does: it makes it harder to do business, it reduces the amount of income by $475 million a year for our economy. This is an industry that, the Minister will be well aware of, brought in $52 billion to New Zealand last fiscal year. So I\u2019d like the Minister to answer us: why did they decide to proceed with this bill without consulting the primary sector? Because this is, again, unfortunately, another habit that this Government is developing, which is pushing ahead with legislation that affects businesses and affects New Zealanders quite significantly without consulting with them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ELook, I\u2019d also like the Minister to tell the Chamber and tell New Zealanders and tell farmers why the Minister decided to go ahead with this, because the regulatory impact statement stated that there are two approaches to respond to the problem from the 2019 review of the post Gulf Livestock 1. The first was to allow for trade to continue but with stronger regulations, through maintaining strong animal welfare standards, and enhancing New Zealand\u2019s long-term trade relationships. Now, that\u2019s something that Australia has proven is possible. Australia has got gold standard for their live export. They got a fantastic deal with the United Kingdom. Why can\u2019t New Zealand do the same? Why can\u2019t the Minister give our farmers that confidence that we\u2019re going to back them, just like Australia has done?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ESo the second option, which the regulatory impact statement said, was a ban to the export of livestock with a transition period, something that we\u2019re seeing here today. Why ban when the Government has the option to make the industry better, weed out the cowboys, trade with the world, and make sure we get that $475 million coming in? The Government\u2019s going to get some of that in tax, but we want all that money\u2014our communities need that money. We need it so we can pay for our schools, which are under financial pressure. We need it to pay for our hospitals, which are under financial pressure. We need it to pay for our nurses, our doctors, our teachers. How do we do that? We do it by trading with the world. This is what we\u2019re doing here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThe other thing is this bill, the Minister will be aware of, will increase the number of bobby calves. So we\u2019re creating two problems. We\u2019re reducing the amount of trade. We\u2019re increasing the number of bobby calves. What\u2019s going to happen with the bobby calves? We can\u2019t send them to happy homes where they\u2019re needed, like, for example, Indonesia, which is going to need more livestock. We can\u2019t send them to the Ukraine, which needs a whole lot more livestock. So Minister, I would appreciate some answers to these questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00221b87140eceeb4a3890eaccb7ffa2a0e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b87140eceeb4a3890eaccb7ffa2a0e6\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Look, Mr Chair, thank you very much, and I\u2019ll take the opportunity to answer some of the questions; I\u2019ll work through them. Let\u2019s start at the top. Just because this trade will stop does not mean that we lose that income, it means that those animals remain in New Zealand and, for the most part, will probably end up being higher-value exports by way of meat products. So we\u2019re not losing the income to our country at all; it just will come in a different form. I accept that there will be, possibly, lower income directly to the farmers who are selling these animals directly in\u2014and they are getting a premium.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EBut I did ask around a number of people across the country at early stages of this proposition. On balance, it\u2019s probably 50:50 or more. Most of the farmers were uncomfortable with this trade and opted to take what is our position\u2014not the leadership; the leadership endorses my position that, on balance, my job as the Minister of Agriculture is to ensure that the incredible work that has been done through generations upholding high standards of animal welfare is not lost through what we see as an increasing trade and increasing incidence of live exports across the globe. Whether it be in sheep or in livestock, because over half of the boats used in international trade are refurbished boats that are old, that would otherwise be scrapped, but they\u2019re then refitted\u2014yes, they are refitted\u2014but in all sorts of ways. Some are OK, many are not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ESo the basis of this was not any drive from leadership, and, in fact, I have to say, it is an honour and a pleasure to work in a Government that does have open debate about many, many issues. And yes, there are some changes from time to time. But I have to tell you that, in my international experience and discussions, all the countries around the world where there is live export from are reconsidering their position. So I have to say, this is about maintaining our reputation because, unlike most countries, we have a high dependency upon animal protein production through milk and meat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1cc36d7e9a84ee6937c352285bc31e3\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: Why can Australia do it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c5007d9a396431891c603a29db5c52f\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Higher than just about\u2014a lot higher than Australia. A lot higher than Australia. It\u2019s only a small portion of their total exports. Of ours, it\u2019s a very high portion. So our reputation is absolutely paramount\u2014done a lot of good work to get there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ESo what we had is a claim that we\u2019ve had gold standards. The reality is that we\u2019re also exporting a long way further than most other countries around the globe. The animals go from temperate climate, through the tropics, and then we\u2019re not quite sure. So as a submitter said, in spite of the best efforts of the people on the boat and the best intentions, effectively, there was no way of significantly reducing either factor\u2014that was heat stress and lameness\u2014that the cows were experiencing on this journey. Cattle didn\u2019t have enough time to adapt to the warmer weather so it really was a brutal period of survival of the fittest. That\u2019s not the kind of reputation that we want as a country that depends on animal protein production.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EMr Bennett raised the issue of compensation. Yes, he answered it himself. There has been two years\u2019 lead-in to this. We have, clearly, had discussions with\u2014and of course there\u2019ll be people who have interests who will object all the way to the end, but, actually, I\u2019ve again spoken to many people who said we\u2019ve got plenty of time to transition out of that, thank you very much, and we\u2019ll move on. In terms of bobby calves, we now have\u2014it\u2019s a whole different issue around bobby calf management, and we have sexed semen. So there won\u2019t be excess animals coming into our system\u2014not the ones that people might have sold and, in fact, are not one and the same thing, as most of the members know that. These have often been bred for purpose; they\u2019ll just be bred for meat or for dairy production.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EMark Cameron says, you know, there\u2019s a low level of confidence across the\u2014what I would say is that it\u2019s hard to maintain the returns that we\u2019re getting for our commodities and for our primary production at this point because they are really strong. Commodity prices across the globe are strong. And we are facing some headwinds with geopolitical instability. We\u2019ve had COVID. And yes, there are some inflationary pressures. So in a situation like that where it\u2019s unlikely that prices will continue to rise\u2014and, indeed, Fonterra have just announced that, you know, pay out might come back 25c\u2014of course there\u2019s some uncertainty, and I understand that from the farming sector. This is not the solution to that, I can promise you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ECan I just say that that the other credit\u2014oh that\u2019s right, I went\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3ca45108b8a4d89b21a79d286f92972\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Ian McKelvie)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Time is up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e525b2b99d9b4c3cac22dfcd62e534df\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, sorry. I missed the clock. Mr Chairman, if I can continue, Nicola Grigg asked if we\u2019d seen Supplementary Order Paper 204 or 205. Yes, we have looked at them, and we appreciate the intent, but, on balance, we think that ending this and giving clarity is a better way forward than continuing with the uncertainty that we are exposed to by this trade. Indeed, we\u2019ve had just had an incident where farmers haven\u2019t been paid, or traders haven\u2019t been paid for stock that was supposed to go on\u2014those stock were returned back to farm. It\u2019s a bit of a commercial mess. And I\u2019m not saying that that was all the industry, but I\u2019m saying it\u2019s been a little messy across a number of the areas of live export. Let\u2019s move on with confidence, utilising the animals that we do breed and raise here, in the best way possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EMr Mooney says, you know, we could do backflips. The problem is, I\u2019m a better forward than I am a gymnast. And so it\u2019s more likely that we will continue with this. In fact, we will continue with this because this is the best piece of legislation to protect the reputation of not just the farmers now but those into the future who want to commit to livestock farming and know that we are the best managers of animal welfare and animal protein in the world, and for the world. That\u2019s why this trade should end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u00221ee66060710145b693ae20b0fe77b2af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ee66060710145b693ae20b0fe77b2af\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks, Mr Chair. Thank you very much; I\u2019m very grateful. Minister, just to clarify. I\u2019m not sure if you\u2019re aware, and maybe you can enlighten the House, what the value of an animal was\u2014let\u2019s theorise here: what a two-year-old Friesian heifer in calf going overseas was worth versus sale in the domestic market. I\u2019ll offer you this: it was probably about $350 to $500 difference per head. That sort of money is gone per animal out of this, or the cessation or nullification of this trade.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EMinister, again, how do you reconcile that some in this industry have invested close on $1 million in livestock-carrying vehicles, trucks, stock crates, and trailers? They\u2019re gone. They\u2019re gone; they\u2019ve subsidised a large portion of their income through this trade.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s one thing I think you really owe this House an explanation of: you have offered that our reputation is key. Now, I think we all agree with that; no umbrage there. But how do you reconcile that the Australians can continue under a gold standard and somehow are you insinuating that their gold standard is less meritorious than the continuation of the trade for us to that gold standard, or should we just simply remove it? So, in other words, what I\u2019m asking, Minister: do you think their gold standard is beneath currently where we sit? Because I think we deserve an answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc4a4bc3b640449997947302c1afdf29\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc4a4bc3b640449997947302c1afdf29\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. The Minister said that New Zealand needs to maintain its reputation as having the best animal husbandry standards in the world, and absolutely\u2014won\u2019t find any disagreement from anyone on this side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThe question is, why has the Minister not looked at the option of improving the regulatory environment to make the sure that those ships the Minister talked about that aren\u2019t fit for purpose, that shouldn\u2019t be carrying our animals around the world, can\u2019t be used to carry our animals around the world, instead of just banning everyone from doing it, and so making sure that only the best operators can come to New Zealand and ship these animals?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EAnd I go back to the question I asked before about the regulatory impact statement, which said that the first option was to allow for trade to continue but with stronger regulations, through maintaining strong animal welfare standards and enhancing New Zealand\u2019s long-term trade relationships. What advice did the Minister get on that recommendation? What discussion did the Minister have with rural New Zealand about that recommendation? What advice and discussions did the Minister have with the trade groups about that recommendation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EBecause, Minister, that seems like, from my point of view, an extremely good idea\u2014to actually allow for trade, enhance New Zealand\u2019s long-term trade relationships, create stronger regulations to make sure the cowboys and the ships that shouldn\u2019t be transporting our animals around the world can\u2019t do it, and maintain strong animal welfare standards. So I would, generally, be very interested in the Minister answering about what advice and discussions the Minister had about that recommendation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022 data-id=\u00227934ba032d2642058ac9ac511c7dd7d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227934ba032d2642058ac9ac511c7dd7d9\u0022\u003ENICOLA GRIGG (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just want to resume my commentary from my last contribution and turn the Minister\u2019s mind to Supplementary Order Paper 206 under my name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EIn my last contribution, I mentioned a Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) that would allow for a certifications regime to be implemented. That doesn\u2019t seem to have been sold to the Government, so I would then like the Minister to consider, rather, a regulation providing for exemptions, as opposed to certifications, but on a case-by-case basis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EThe Minister, in his last contribution, made a number of observations about the standard of ships that have been used historically to transfer animals around the world. I think I\u2019ve mentioned this to this House before that we would absolutely agree that a lot of that has been substandard. I sat on the Primary Production Committee, and we saw photographic evidence and, indeed, oral evidence of practices that no New Zealander would accept or consider to be right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EAnd that is the point of the SOPs that we are putting up here this afternoon and, indeed, have been doing so for the last couple of times that we have met to debate this bill. The whole point behind the position that we are taking on this side of the House\u2014I might add, also, on behalf of the industry\u2014is that there is room to regulate this industry. Underneath that regulation would, one would assume, come an insistence of only using built-for-purpose ships that would obviously include high-tech air ventilation systems and, indeed, air conditioning systems. We do understand that animals do suffer heat stress, particularly when they get to the equator on their journey.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EBut the Minister has not answered the question around leakage and, you know, he\u2019s talked about other shipments from other nations. Well, I put to the Minister: is it not better that the New Zealand export industry lead the world in this, with a world-leading regulatory standard, whereby animals are on custom-built ships from port to port, approximately, weather permitting, for three weeks, as opposed to going from a jurisdiction like in South America where there are no regulations, where those animals are on the water for about seven weeks, and where they are still crossing the equator and are still going to be subjected to heat stress in ships that are probably refurbished container ships.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003ESo, with regard to SOP 206, allowing the regulation to be created that would give the director-general an opportunity to provide exemptions on a case by case basis would answer those questions. And those concerns that the Minister raised, the purpose of the conditional licensing regime is to\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201Censure that each shipment of cattle is exported in accordance with good practice and scientific knowledge.\u201D And that is the crux of the argument that we, on this side of the House, are putting forward. This decision has been made entirely emotionally and entirely ideologically; there is not scientific rationale behind it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EWe would, therefore, under a conditional licensing regime, request that exporters have to apply for a licence for each individual shipment of cattle and make certain that exporters maintain consistently high standards, and that, I would also add, would extend to the importers; they, too, would be subject to a certification or a licensing regime on a case by case basis to ensure the ongoing animal welfare standards are kept in the destination country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EWe would like an exemption mechanism to be instigated prior to October next year. That gives the industry some time to move. I think I mentioned in my last contribution, as much as the Minister likes to say, \u201CThe industry has had two years to transition\u201D, they have been waiting with bated breath that the Minister and the Government might move on this thing. So this is coming into effect in April next year. I\u2019m sorry, that is six months away; that is not two years away. So we do want the Minister to please consider SOP 206, that each export need to apply for export licensing regime for the export of cattle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u00220ffa8564edea42f29bdb885e3e812919\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ffa8564edea42f29bdb885e3e812919\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just have two questions for the Minister. The first is in relation to his response before, where he implied that the returns would remain in New Zealand but in a different form, and then my colleague from the ACT Party quite rightly noted that there would be a different price for a stock unit of that age in the New Zealand market, compared with the international market. So perhaps the Minister needs to enlighten us, on this side of the House, as to actually how his economics work as to how we get the same return in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EWhen we consider that the Minister has said that he wants to see 800,000 hectares of dry stock land go into forestry, where are these animals going to go? What are we going to do with them at that age? We\u2019ve already had peak cows. We\u2019ve got cows reducing. Are these heifers that are in calf going to suddenly become part of the New Zealand dairy herd? What\u2019s going to happen to them? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EHow does the Minister explain that that money will, in his words, come in a different form? It won\u2019t. There will be a loss to the New Zealand economy. If he says that there is no loss to the New Zealand economy, I would love to hear it. Now, the only answer I think he can give is his fanciful thing about \u201CThis is all part of \u2018Brand New Zealand\u2019 \u201D and that we get more return from it from that. That might be his answer, but that will be lovely to see, because he can\u2019t even get a free-trade agreement in Europe for dairy. He actually took that out of the agreement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a05027c67ccf4e7d8cc9247a865a9693\u0022\u003ERachel Boyack\u003C/span\u003E: What?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d0de28f281340f9b463afd40f0d2953\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Shocking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285c8dbbe90a2479fac84c7321a82ef9b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: No, they did. The Labour members are going, \u201COh, really?\u201D Well, that\u2019s what happened. The week before the free-trade agreement, your glorious leader said, \u201CWe don\u2019t need to negotiate that. We don\u2019t need to talk about dairy\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234edd73e9c9d45c9a11d4db16de82e48\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Bennett, I\u2019ll just remind members this debate has been going for half an hour before we started today. So we are now looking for, as the previous speaker did talk into Supplementary Order Papers, in particular\u2014so I\u2019ll be looking for new material; certainly relevant material, Mr Bennett. So I\u2019ll invite you to continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c47badd2543b49fc90ec49cf15e63146\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. It certainly is new material, because the Labour members are over there, going, \u201CWhat? Really? Never heard of it.\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296447a76da214f45bdce8acbc85298a7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Relevant material, Mr Bennett.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab169a265b324082a9e7277a8bd07f4e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s new to them that the Prime Minister, basically, put the kibosh on the dairy industry in the free-trade agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ESo where are these heifers going to go? Are we going to suddenly miraculously have more dairy conversions, Minister? I don\u2019t think you\u2019re going to do that. It\u2019s not going to happen. Are we going to have more sheep and beef farms? That\u2019s not going to happen when everything that you want goes into forestry. Where are you going to put these animals? Where do we get that return? Your words were: \u201CThey will come in a different form.\u201D So explain it. Just tell us how you made that economic judgment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EMy second question to the Minister is a very simple one. He just has to say \u201CYes\u201D or \u201CNo\u201D. Did he ask the Prime Minister to tone down the policy in this area? At any point, did he go to the Prime Minister and say, \u201CNo, we can\u2019t do the full ban. There\u2019s a practical solution here that we could look at.\u201D Did he have that conversation? Just a simple yes or no. If he didn\u2019t have that conversation, fine, everybody knows that he didn\u2019t. But if he did have that conversation, the public and the farmers of New Zealand deserve to know that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271a9ae9060a74ee49294cb68b86dc25d\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: No one cares.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eea2241fd33945e1a5b7ac3fd1639247\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: No one cares? This is Willie Jackson. They obviously don\u2019t understand that one of the biggest farmers in New Zealand is iwi. Guess who makes a lot of money in the sheep and beef industry! It\u2019s iwi. Guess who\u2019s going to have a big future in New Zealand sheep and beef! Iwi. But \u201Cwho cares?\u201D for Willie Jackson because he\u2019s the urban elite; he\u2019s not actually of the M\u0101ori who are looking after the land and the whenua, and building the base of the industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, answer those questions. Did you at any point ask the Prime Minister to tone down the policy agenda in this area? Secondly, explain how this money\u2019s going to come in a different form, when, as my good colleague has said, there is a completely different market for those animals. And where do you expect those animals to go?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u002258724b7890ef4404813ac48325d0f62a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258724b7890ef4404813ac48325d0f62a\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. It\u2019s good that the member David Bennett sat down so I could answer the questions. Look, it\u2019s good that he also acknowledges the significant role that iwi play across agriculture. It hasn\u2019t been recognised as it should be, and I have to say it\u2019s a pleasure to see the development across many iwi M\u0101ori entities in agriculture. And not one of them called for a change in our position on this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWhen I was farming\u2014and it might be different for Mr Bennett\u2014but if you have an in-calf heifer and you don\u2019t send it away, that doesn\u2019t mean to say the value of that animal disappears. Indeed, you have a heifer that will produce a calf that has value in itself. You then can actually milk it if you want, or, in fact, actually, there are some that produce beef that will say there\u2019s a really good return on beef heifers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ECan I just say that the equation that stopping this trade ends the value of the animals in New Zealand is completely false. So I\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a057599974541b280aae34ee6e084cc\u0022\u003EHon David Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: We never said that. We said \u201Clower value\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4bc0cc262564c7780a640806707a33a\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Maybe the member should just take a different\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cc3bc8af6774c7cbbbe0af2768864d7\u0022\u003EHon David Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Chair. Both myself and my colleague never said it ended the value; we said it has a lower value, and the Minister needs to answer\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291cd9e6e473041d3aabfb02f7559a725\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Bennett, that is not a point of order. That is a debating point. [Interruption] No, sit down please, Mr Bennett.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250b8d94de64a4c0e909c2412e80f2b57\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just point to the fact that\u2014and I think Mr Cameron\u2019s actually got his figures wrong. I think he underestimates the premium that many farmers were getting\u2014underestimates them, because I think my brother was certainly selling animals for about twice their value for the export market, and so I accept that there would be less money available to those farmers who might have sold directly to those markets. It does not mean there\u2019s less money for New Zealand, and I explained that biological process to Mr Bennett.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ECan I just go through a couple of other points. Mr Mooney asked\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022688eaf969ca744f384923fabc350795a\u0022\u003EHon David Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Did you ask the Prime Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae7c535301014574aa9c049096a44e7c\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, did I ask the Prime Minister? I asked her, \u201CCan you continue to support my view that we should end this trade, because that will protect our reputation?\u201D That\u2019s the discussion I had, and I\u2019m happy to say that I led that on the basis of all the information, the discussions, and the reading that I\u2019ve done in this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ECan I just go back to a couple of points made by members over there. Nicola Grigg says that, you know, a lot of the boats have been substandard. Indeed, that has been the case, and if you look across the history of the trade, there was a boat from Chile having to refuel in Fiji that was locked out of the port, because Fijians didn\u2019t think that this trade was ethical. A number of people across the globe are concerned about what has been happening and what is still happening, which is why we\u2019re trying to stay ahead of that. We can still assist the people we had as customers through genetic transfer, through embryos, through sperm transfer, and we can have air travel for very high-value animals. This does not stop us assisting in the genetic improvement of animals around the world. We simply just will not be doing it through transport on boats.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ECan I say finally: look, Mr Mooney says, you know, we should just use the best operators. The problem is it\u2019s a subjective judgment on who they are, and it gets really, really tricky. If we end up with one dud operator, as we did, one tragic accident, as we did, then the reputation of this country is at stake. That\u2019s why we\u2019re moving on this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00227c5404fa5cb04335b71fcf54410dfd34\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c5404fa5cb04335b71fcf54410dfd34\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I do warn members that there hasn\u2019t been any real new material here, so I will be looking for new material on all new speeches.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022 data-id=\u0022d04cbc06144d4525a35e19fbef4b0f38\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d04cbc06144d4525a35e19fbef4b0f38\u0022\u003ENICOLA GRIGG (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, I\u2019m very pleased to let you know that I have five Supplementary Order Papers (SOPs), and I\u2019m up to number four of five, so this is certainly my best attempt at new material, and I look forward to the Minister\u2019s response on this one too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003ESo I would like to draw the Minister\u2019s attention this time to Supplementary Order Paper 208, which we haven\u2019t yet canvassed in this Chamber. Now, to be fair, though, I do feel like I\u2019m repeating myself, because I have\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221dec2d07497049bdb6086f2733051061\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: You are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eed95dc62a01485bb7e48f74aa0516e6\u0022\u003ENICOLA GRIGG\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014asked the Minister\u2014oh, you still haven\u2019t given me an answer, Minister; not a satisfactory one, at least. We have asked the Minister multiple times, the industry has asked the Minister multiple times, to provide a framework for regulation to tidy this industry up. It\u2019s really interesting that a Government that purports to be all about just transition is prepared to cut this industry off at the knees in six months from now. So despite our best attempts\u2014you know, we\u2019ve asked for the Minister to consider things like permissions regimes, regulations, export certificates, exemptions, case by case basis, etc., etc., etc. The primary SOP we\u2019ve put up has been asking the Minister to ask the director-general to carry out a review within three months of this thing coming into force so that he can look to the viability of implementing a world-class gold standard regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EBut this time around, SOP 208; I really would like the Minister to at least consider this one, and that is implementing new section 54A, whereby the Minister himself would review the ban on live animal shipments within three months. Now, the reason we are asking for this is that it would require the Act arising from the passage of this bill, which we presume is going to happen, because that\u2019s what happens when a Government has an absolute majority and it knows it\u2019s in its dying days; it\u2019s going to pass anything it blinking well can for the next 12 months. It would require the Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI) to review the prohibition six months after it comes into force. So hypothetically speaking, perhaps if it were to be a change of Government after September next year, perhaps by about March 2024, the Ministry for Primary Industries would review this thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EThis SOP has been put up because it recognises, and we on this side of the House recognise, the haste with which this Government is operating, the haste with which it made a decision. We supported the immediate cessation of shipments immediately after the sinking of the Gulf Livestock 1 in 2019. We felt that was right and proper. We supported it. We then supported the Heron recommendations that MPI chose to implement as well. We believe, and we know MPI believes, there is a way to regulate this thing. So we think that this is a knee-jerk reaction. It is ideological; it is emotional. That is why we are putting up this SOP, because we believe this thing needs to be reviewed and we do think that if and when it\u2019s reviewed, it will be found to be wanting. This SOP also introduces the review mechanism, so we\u2019re putting all the frameworks in place where MPI must start to look. In the context of the Animal Welfare Amendment Act, it will review the prohibition on the application of issuance of animal welfare export certificates, and it will consider whether the animal welfare export certificate process could be reinstated under prescribed conditions and criteria. I look forward to the Minister\u2019s response to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u00222e0fae989dbb4694aaade7f69abe7835\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e0fae989dbb4694aaade7f69abe7835\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. The Minister has said in the House a number of times now that this is to protect our reputation. Last year, the Minister said that, in effect, this trade puts $33.7 billion in trade in animals and agricultural products at risk. However, the Ministry for Primary Industries thought the reputational impacts were real but difficult to quantify. So I would like to ask the Minister: has the Minister gone to our trading partners and asked them what their view is on this trade, in terms of them buying our products? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ENow, if I look just at one example, China, alone, took about $20 billion of our goods in 2021. Most of that was dairy, meat, and wood. And China is also rebuilding its dairy herd, because they reduced their herd in a culling programme in 2015-2016 by 50 percent, but now they\u2019re trying to rebuild it so they can rebuild their ability to produce milk domestically. So that is obviously a big trading partner, an important one. Has the Minister gone to any of these trading partners and our biggest ones and asked them, rather than just putting a finger in the air and being like, \u201CI feel like it could affect our reputation.\u201D? Has he gone and actually asked them and got some data to inform this decision about whether it will in fact affect our trade with them or not? Because that would seem to be an absolutely critical point, to actually have some metrics underpinning the decision, and it is one that would give some confidence that the Minister\u2019s actually making a principled decision, rather than just a \u201Cfeels\u201D decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6e9532827e04e348d5ef5c0b5da09e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6e9532827e04e348d5ef5c0b5da09e2\u0022\u003EJO LUXTON (Labour\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002252f469ac10274e43b39b1a8ee624faed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252f469ac10274e43b39b1a8ee624faed\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: There hasn\u2019t been any new material, but at this stage I\u2019ll look with hope that one of the two speakers\u2014Mr Bennett.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u00224367394da3484519b7ffb9fb8a7cfb7a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224367394da3484519b7ffb9fb8a7cfb7a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. In the last answer from the Minister, he talked about there being a compensation, I guess, for not having the live trade in that you can use sperm and embryos and suchlike to enable New Zealand to have access to genetics and suchlike, and this hasn\u2019t been discussed in this House before. But, at the same time as this bill, the Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI) has, effectively, cut the trade in embryos and sperm from overseas. So the new rules and regulations around it basically mean it is impossible to bring in a lot of those products to New Zealand. That\u2019s a relationship back to the M. bovis days, and MPI have tightened up the rules. So, effectively, for those that aren\u2019t here, they basically have to put radioactive\u2014give a good whack to those products, which basically knocks them out, and a very small proportion will actually ever survive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ESo if the Minister\u2019s using as an excuse that we don\u2019t need to trade in animals that are live, but at the same time his excuse for that is \u201CWe can still get embryos; we can still get sperm\u201D, but at the same time his officials have, effectively, killed that market, how does he reconcile that? How does he explain it? The Minister knows what I\u2019m talking about. He\u2019s had the correspondence that I\u2019ve had from people in that sector who say they can\u2019t do it any more. It would have been on his desk, and he\u2019s seen it. He has seen that; his officials have seen it. They can\u2019t in this House ignore it; they can\u2019t in this House say that\u2019s not true. There are officials here that have seen those letters. They actually made the policies that do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ESo the Minister needs to explain why, five minutes ago, he said, \u201CDon\u2019t worry about the live trade; you\u2019ve always got the embryos and sperm.\u201D We don\u2019t, actually, because he\u2019s killed that market. His officials need to explain to the Minister how he\u2019s going to reconcile all that, and then he needs to reconcile to the farmers in New Zealand how they keep getting the best genetics in the world. If you\u2019re the racing industry, you don\u2019t rely just on New Zealand genetics. You get some of the best horses around the world and bring them in. He\u2019s called Sir Tristram for a reason\u2014you know, he came from Ireland. What are we going to do with our beef, our sheep? How are we going to have a sheep milking industry if we don\u2019t get\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258b009a71a944adcad34d3c61882386a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Bennett, you were vaguely on the bill before. You\u2019ve now stretched quite a way away. So can we come back to the bill that\u2019s actually in front of you and the provisions of it? It\u2019s been wide ranging, but we are now at this stage of the debate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a7866414e5349a48666929b01668a96\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: This bill bans the import of livestock, and the Minister has said in his answer, \u201CDon\u2019t worry about that; you can do semen and embryos.\u201D Well, you can\u2019t. Theoretically you can, but by the time you nuke them, they\u2019re basically dead. So, you know, they\u2019re not coming through. The Minister knows\u2014he\u2019s looking very sheepish at the moment\u2014but maybe he needs to explain it. What are New Zealand farmers going to do around genetics, going forward? They can\u2019t have a live trade, and they can\u2019t have the genetics come in through those other forms. That is new material that hasn\u2019t been discussed, but it\u2019s a direct implication of this bill, and the Minister raised it in his answer as an excuse for this bill. He says, \u201CDon\u2019t worry about this; you don\u2019t need live trade. You can have the others.\u201D Well, you can\u2019t, because the rules are so difficult now that it makes a lot of that impossible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ESo can the Minister please explain his rationale, please explain what\u2019s happening there, and to actually identify what\u2019s going on and acknowledge that there is a problem there around semen and embryos, and say what he is going to do about it. Because is this \u201CFortress New Zealand\u201D coming back again in the primary sector, where we\u2019re not allowed to have genetics from around the world? Is that what the Minister truly wants for New Zealand? I ask the Minister to answer those questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u002258a89b15d4c84f7491c8d224eebc0bd2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258a89b15d4c84f7491c8d224eebc0bd2\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, sir. Thank you. Minister, I will push back on your statements that I had the figures wrong. Do you know what the national herd scheme is, sir? I\u2019d hope to think that you did. F12s\u2014I\u2019m not sure if you know what the acronym was; it was for Friesian 12s and it was to do with their pedigree status. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EThe average price for the national herd scheme when these animals were being traded versus the value of the animals domestically: the value of the animals domestically was $1,600 to $1,750 on average through the national herd scheme. This was average prices for F12s in the last two fiscal seasons. The average price for animals going offshore was about $500 more than that per head. Now, I used average figures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003ENow, I want to add to that just to keep some new material flowing here, given that Mr Chair has asked for it. Pre-departure condition score, Minister: do you know what the pre-departure average condition score for animals going offshore is versus average Friesian dairy cows being dried off\u2014theorising here\u2014on 15 or 20 May? I guarantee you, sir, the pre-departure conditions\u2014the half a condition score that these animals are putting in terms of weight gain in transit is not indicative of a problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EI want you to clarify yes or no, sir, do you know what the average of mortality of bovine livestock is here in New Zealand versus in transit? Because every suggestion we\u2019ve had: in transit, it is infinitesimally small compared to what is happening on average on an everyday New Zealand dairy farm. So can you clarify that, because there\u2019s a massive distinction there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022278ad28714e047228356f1ad288d9026\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022278ad28714e047228356f1ad288d9026\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E There was a little bit of new information there and I\u2019m happy to do that. The fatality rates\u2014and we\u2019ve been monitoring those\u2014on the face of it might seem relatively low. But actually, when you look across the reports, I\u2019ve had to scrutinise those reports and challenge them from time to time to ensure that we\u2014indeed, lately we have been having a more accurate report-back system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EBut there are a lot of injuries\u2014they\u2019re mainly foot injuries, but one of the things that is indicated in reports but doesn\u2019t necessarily result in a fatality is huge heat stress. I think, by any animal welfare standard, it would be considered unacceptable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ECan I just very briefly touch on a couple of the other things. Nicola Grigg said, you know, this is a hasty bill. It\u2019s taken two years: clear notice to the industry. I think recognition of that, even though they don\u2019t agree, recognition of the time that we gave them in the lead-up to this\u2014and it is important that we move on with certainty, that we don\u2019t offer false hope, which is I know what the National members have been trying to do. But we will move on with this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI was a little confused, as I was from the two interventions by Mr Bennett: one that was completely false regarding the EU trade deal; but the second one here, I wasn\u2019t sure whether he was talking about the importation or the exportation of genetics. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re actually talking about the export of products, and we can\u2014and indeed, if the member thinks there\u2019s blockage to the importation of genetics from our country, that people want to do that, then please come and see me and I will address that with officials. But I think they facilitate that as best they can, given the biosecurity requirements of the countries into which we would be exporting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EBut I think on balance, we\u2019ve been through and we\u2019ve canvassed most of the issues here. I can accept the perspectives put forth by the Opposition. We don\u2019t agree with them; we think that on balance we still need to uphold the reputation and protect it for all of those generations of farmers that\u2019ve got us to where we have got to, and for those who will get us to where we need to be in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u0022366cbf76e0544f479d49eb88e8643e28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022366cbf76e0544f479d49eb88e8643e28\u0022\u003EJO LUXTON (Labour\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002218feaa8532d9471aa227bc7c4a498f8e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002212e280d8126246efb3915bdef78bfc7b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002212e280d8126246efb3915bdef78bfc7b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Nicola Grigg\u2019s amendments inserting new clauses 2A and 11A set out on Supplementary Order Paper 208 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223336d3e58a65472d80bcd3cd47881346\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00222ea7e7acd9b44084a9f85969f22113b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ea7e7acd9b44084a9f85969f22113b8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Eugenie Sage\u2019s amendments to clauses 5, 7, 10, and the Schedule set out on Supplementary Order Paper 181 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227b9bc46373f8409fa7532fba9a6a6285\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 108\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; New Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022f26ef417a13a47cb9d4ef5b3969b98a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f26ef417a13a47cb9d4ef5b3969b98a5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Nicola Grigg\u2019s remaining amendments to clauses 5, 6, 7, 10, 11, and the Schedule set out on Supplementary Order Paper 207 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f2cbeb977c694e52ae8af99d1e5c1381\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002290738f45860846c8b4b7b7af6d9a460c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290738f45860846c8b4b7b7af6d9a460c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Nicola Grigg\u2019s remaining amendments to clause 10 and the Schedule and inserting new clause 10A set out on Supplementary Order Paper 204 are out of order as being outside the scope of the bill. Nicola Grigg\u2019s amendment inserting new clause 10A set out on Supplementary Order Paper 205 is out of order as being outside the scope of the bill. Nicola Grigg\u2019s amendment inserting new clause 10A set out on Supplementary Order Paper 206 is out of order as being outside the scope of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002204ea1fb976464cf294eb67ff386dedea\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clauses 3 to 12 and the Schedule be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClauses 3 to 12 and the Schedule agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000422\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223c7c208432604338a0aeed123531c700\u0022\u003EScreen Industry Workers Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bab668a0e99f4e938a64835adc2cdaf2\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e32da209e3f144c3b2f67e0ddc692de4\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002295fda0e7ca90413c900ee77713b9b602\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002295fda0e7ca90413c900ee77713b9b602\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to the Screen Industry Workers Bill. Members, we come now to Part 1. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u0022429f9f42730f439b97be8cd4d7809a4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022429f9f42730f439b97be8cd4d7809a4f\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, well, look, thank you; an unexpected initial call. I thought the Minister may have started; I\u2019m not sure of the general protocol. So apologies to the Minister there if I\u2019ve jumped in front of you, or\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0368e09708246e58d94b5b4503b1639\u0022\u003EHon Michael Wood\u003C/span\u003E: Go ahead. My folder\u2019s open.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222aa4bbb79ea748f1bb1ade69b77fdc8d\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Look, I\u2019m very conscious this is, obviously, the committee stage. I think it\u2019s important to say that National does oppose this, but not all aspects of it. There remain elements of the bill which we are quite happy to see strengthened. But, overall, we see that this goes far too far in the overall intention\u2014and this is, ultimately, the first question of many to the Minister. The ultimate intention, we think, is going to actually harm the screen industry. So I just want to draw the Minister\u2019s attention, if I could, to his department\u2019s impact statement, where it makes very clear that he believes that this is a low-wage industry. I would welcome some examples from the Minister of that. I\u2019m not disputing whether it is or not. I think it would be just really interesting if he could provide some examples, or his officials could, of what would be perhaps, I don\u2019t know, the average wage of a producer or a grip or a stagehand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EAnd, importantly, as well, in the spirit of rather short questions, where and how were these wages compared to? So we get in the impact statement\u2014on page one, if it assists. Granted, the officials know; they wrote it. In section A it says that the low wages in this industry were compared to others. I\u2019d welcome knowing what those industries were. So again, I\u2019d like some examples of what the wages are that he sees, and what they were compared against.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u00224cd33868124d43ccb1b2448a3fabca67\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224cd33868124d43ccb1b2448a3fabca67\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Apologies; I didn\u2019t stand up as expeditiously as was expected. I was just carrying my things over to my chair here and the previous Chair got things under way very quickly. But I\u2019ll make some opening comments in respect of Part 1, which we are set to debate at this point of proceedings in this committee stage hearing in the Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EPart 1 of the bill primarily contains the preliminary provisions of the bill, including key definitions, including the critical definition of screen production workers who are the group of workers who are covered by the provisions of this legislation. Can I, at this point of proceedings, just acknowledge the work of the Education and Workforce Committee that did consider this bill. It was, of course, about two years ago now. So it was a select committee of the previous Parliament who considered and reported back the bill that the committee has in front of it at this stage. The main change that the select committee made to Part 1 of the bill was to enhance wording in this part of the bill to ensure that workers do have the freedom to make complaints without any fear of there being any comeback on them. That\u2019s an important part of the bill. It was something that was heard from the sector, that there was a strong desire from workers\u2014from workers\u2019 unions\u2014but also producers in the sector, that we have strong prohibitions against practices such as bullying, harassment, and discrimination. So I think that\u2019s a good improvement that\u2019s in there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve introduced a significant Supplementary Order Paper. When I say significant, it\u2019s a relatively large one that we\u2019ll work through as we go through the different parts of the bill in the course of the debate today. It\u2019s fair to say that many of the changes in the Supplementary Order Paper are relatively small and technical and quite often relate to a reordering and restructuring of the bill to make it more readable and easy to interpret. The most significant change in Part 1 of the bill that\u2019s reflected in the Supplementary Order Paper relates to the fact that we\u2019re ensuring that workplace relationships as defined under the bill are not just restricted to the bargaining period. We need to understand workplace relationships in the broader context of the relationship between workers and engagers in the sector, and Part 1 of the bill confirms that that occurs across the entire scope of the employment relationship. Those, I think, are the key opening comments I\u2019d like to make in respect of Part 1 of the bill, and I\u2019m happy to answer any questions that do relate to the provisions of Part 1 as reported back to the committee by the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d1ab74a2769140d383958c43186cb31f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d1ab74a2769140d383958c43186cb31f\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. One of the issues raised in Part 1 of this bill\u2014this is the Screen Industry Workers Bill, which is seeking to undo the legislation that was called the \u201CHobbit law\u201D, which was introduced by the National Government back in 2010 or 2012, I can\u2019t remember which, and which was put in place in the context of a big union fight, which was, frankly, threatening the arrival and production of The Hobbit films. It was an arrangement that the National Government of the time brought in in order to ensure that they went ahead. And since then, the New Zealand film industry has gone from strength to strength. It is in a reasonably good shape, although, of course, it has been battered severely by the COVID restrictions over the last couple of years\u2014just starting to come out of that. And I\u2019m bound to say that the feedback I\u2019m getting from many in the sector is: \u201CGreat! We were just finally getting our head above the water post-COVID. There\u2019s still lots of issues that we\u2019re having to deal with\u2014lots of sickness and things like that. Oh dear, I just wish we weren\u2019t having to deal with very significant labour relations changes at the same time.\u201D So the timing of this bill is a questionable one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EAnd the most fundamental question I have for the Minister relates not just to Part 1 but to the bill itself, which has been in the freezer for two years. It was introduced by a Minister many Ministers ago, I think, back before the last election in 2020 with a hiss and a roar, and then put in the freezer, and it has been pulled out, stuck in the microwave two years later, and is suddenly being pushed quite rapidly through the last stages. And so the fundamental question I have for the Minister is why\u2014I suppose to talk through the timing of why he thinks this is a good time to be undergoing very substantial reform in an industry that is still battling the effects of COVID, just getting itself back on its feet again. There\u2019s quite a bit of stuff going on. There\u2019s also, of course, the merger of TVNZ and Radio New Zealand, which nobody seems to understand the logic therein. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273e3a8fce76d4ff6b205a0c4c429c6e2\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014only you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253883b01d58e4e8e8fcde13154588ad1\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m getting slightly off topic. Old Willie Jackson probably understands it. Well, who knows what goes on in Willie\u2019s mind. But anyway, that\u2019s going on at great expense, and will have implications and consequences for the industry, unknown at this stage. And so they\u2019re dealing with that, they\u2019re dealing with COVID, and they\u2019re wondering why on earth we need to be dealing with this now. So that\u2019s a question around timing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe second question is a more substantive one in relation to Part 1, which talks about the exemption from prohibition of restricted trade practices. And this is potentially a very significant change in our employment relations. Here it\u2019s just listed as it relates to the screen industry, but there is, of course, deep nervousness that this is, I suppose, the first cab off the rank of a wider Government agenda to enable contractors to ignore the Commerce Act, which is all about individual companies and contractors not being able to collude in a cartel fashion with each other over pay and conditions and arrangements and cost. So the idea of an independent contractor meeting with all the other independent contractors and collectively coming up with a scheme is what\u2019s called a cartel, and it\u2019s been ruled out in the Commerce Act. So this legislation is wanting to change that, and have an exemption for this industry. So I suppose the question I have for the Minister is: can he be open about his thinking there in terms of what his intentions are for\u2014well, why just this sector? And does he have plans for other sectors?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u00228178bec32ff540d6bdc155568308dd73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228178bec32ff540d6bdc155568308dd73\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E I mean, the member took all of about 15 seconds in his first speech to stray into striking irrelevance in respect of this particular debate, but let me respond briefly\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227b226f09b5b42b19ed2b9fc2be8dcaf\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Ian McKelvie)\u003C/span\u003E: Minister, order! I\u2019ll be the judge of that, and the member did qualify his comments very well, if you listened properly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f2f37abe83146218dbeed00eb9535c5\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: And I\u2019m very generously going to briefly respond to his questions around the timing of the bill by contrasting it with the fact that the National Party made its previous changes, which stripped away fundamental international worker rights, in urgency, overnight. This Government has actually worked through a careful process of consultation and collaboration with the sector itself to develop these proposals. So the member\u2019s opening utterances, suggesting that there\u2019s deep alarm or concern in the sector, are entirely baseless. This piece of legislation is based on a tripartite working group, which had both unions and producers at the table, which brought back joint recommendations which have formed the basis for this piece of legislation, and the detailed provisions of it have been worked through very carefully with them over recent months. The member may have blinked and missed it, but there were a couple of other events over the course of 2020 and 2021 which did somewhat disrupt the Government\u2019s legislative programme, and we are returning to those important things now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThe relevant matter which the member did refer to was clause 7 of the bill, which relates to prohibitions on restrictive trade practices. This is quite an important part of it, because, effectively, the grand bargain of the recommendations that came through from the screen industry working group, which are reflected in this bill, is that the contractor status will largely be retained for workers in the sector\u2014and there are seen to be benefits for that from people in the sector\u2014but those workers will have the ability to collectively bargain. It is unusual for people who are contractors to be able to collectively bargain, but that was the joint recommendation of both the producers and the workers who were involved in this process to try and strike a balance which ensures that those rights which were taken away by the previous Government, and which mean that workers in this sector uniquely\u2014remember, workers in this sector uniquely\u2014under the previous legislation were prohibited by that previous Government\u2019s legislation from being able to test their legal status in the courts. Let\u2019s remember, that\u2019s what that lot did to workers in this sector. They took away the right of these workers to go to the courts and test whether they should lawfully be able to be considered employees or contractors. That was the starting position that we\u2019ve had to try and work through and get to a collaborative outcome on. So the outcome, as recommended by the group, is that people retain their status as contractors but they\u2019re able to exercise collective bargaining rights\u2014a right which employees in New Zealand do have. So that was the balance that was struck, and that is the reason that we have clause 7 in this bill in the way that it is set out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00224dffa76077fe414eb79f0b63028c70e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224dffa76077fe414eb79f0b63028c70e4\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Just responding to a couple of issues raised by the Minister in terms of the widespread support in the sector for this which he claims, I suppose the question I have is: is he aware that a large portion of the funding that drives this industry in this country comes from the Government, and does he concede that it might be possible that many people in the sector are reluctant, therefore, to be openly critical of this Government, which provides much of the funding for them? So I\u2019d be interested to know just on what basis he thinks that everybody is happy about the timing of this legislation, and whether he has really understood the realities of people trying to survive in business in a difficult post-COVID environment where\u2014as every other industry is aware\u2014people are having large sicknesses as a result of COVID. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThere are a lot of just practical difficulties of trying to restart a business that was rather frozen during the so-called COVID process. He thinks this is a great time for a major change. I\u2019d put it to him from people that I\u2019ve spoken to that there is no great enthusiasm for it right now, but he may know better. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe second point he raised was that he rather flippantly sort of passed on this notion that, yes, we\u2019re changing this basic arrangement that we have in New Zealand law that contractors cannot and should not collaborate with other contractors to set prices and terms and conditions. It\u2019s called cartel behaviour. That\u2019s why it\u2019s against the Commerce Act, and what this law is proposing is to exempt this industry from that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe point that I wanted to get some clarity from the Minister about is that he says that this is highly specific\u2014and it is in this legislation\u2014to this industry, and I just wanted to get from him the exact elements of this industry that make this unique, requiring this change. I would also be interested\u2014and he may choose to or not\u2014in whether he can give a commitment that this approach would not be extended to other parts of the economy, because if it was, it would be a fundamental change to the way our markets work. It would be a dramatic change in the way that we organise companies and the way that we organise how things happen, because there are many, many contractors, of course, in many, many industries, and if we were to say that all of them could now\u2014I mean, the Government contracts out billions and billions of dollars of work. If he was to suggest that those contractors could now all sort of get together and collectively bargain over Government contracts, that would be a very interesting thing to conclude, but it would also have a very large impact on many industries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThere is nervousness out there around the Government\u2019s intentions on this and the line between employee and contractor, of course, is a very contested space, and it will continue to be so. So I\u2019m just curious if we could get any more clarity from the Minister around exactly what it is about this industry that makes it a unique case on this particular issue around an exemption from sections 27 and 30 of the Commerce Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u0022752b5a0a9f93434cb20c556f0a338f8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022752b5a0a9f93434cb20c556f0a338f8e\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E The particular features of this group of workers that are unique are the ones that I described in my previous comments, which were that the previous Government, by legislative fiat, took away their fundamental rights to be considered employees, to test those rights in the courts, and to be able to collectively bargain. If the member feels very strongly that there should be a consistent position here, he\u2019s very welcome to put up a Supplementary Order Paper to reclassify these workers as employees, if they wish, but I don\u2019t see any particular inclination from him to do that. In respect of the timing of the legislation, the member might take some comfort from the fact that Supplementary Order Paper 234 changes the commencement date of the legislation from one month to three months. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u002221002246cdb34b4a940ec7ee124ddfc0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221002246cdb34b4a940ec7ee124ddfc0\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m delighted the Minister\u2019s taken calls and I thank him for that. I\u2019m going to reiterate my earlier questions, because even though they draw from the impact statement they very much apply to Part 1 and, actually, arguably to all parts, which is the premise of the bill\u2014that those in the screen industry are paid low wages. And that could well be true. I honestly do not have a list in front of me of what these people are paid, so I would welcome some examples, including from Marja Lubeck, who is the expert in all things and I suspect is not paid, accordingly, the millions she should be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESecondly, the Minister\u2019s premise, which also reflects into Part 1, are the industries that it was compared to, and I think it would be very useful if the Minister could assure the committee of what industries his officials compared the screen industry to. So that\u2019s reiterating those questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EA third question is somewhat in response to his timing. We on this side of the Chamber are very aware of his exceptionally large Supplementary Order Paper. The issue is not whether it was a month or, obviously, moving out to three months; it\u2019s the fact that he\u2019s bringing the whole legislation in now when, arguably, we have a screen sector in crisis, and so to that end I would ask him again\u2014in the whole point of Part 1\u2014what conversations, if any, his officials had with Amazon, and have they indicated their reasons to him for why they were leaving? And was part of that a concern about the very legislation that he\u2019s bringing to the House right now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EI turn now\u2014I\u2019m on a bit of a roll and I\u2019m enjoying having my mask off\u2014to clause 11, \u201CMeaning of screen production worker\u201D. Can he give me and the committee some assurance of just how widely this goes? Honestly, the best boy, the gaffer, all of these make sense, but does the caterer or, say, the security guard who\u2019s protecting the production get included? I\u2019m not trying to be silly. This is something I don\u2019t fully know, and I just want to know how far that goes, because if we agree with his purpose\u2014and we don\u2019t\u2014that he\u2019s trying to keep this limited and this goes far too wide, are we going to see in effect collective bargaining pushing through into those sectors? So that would be really interesting to see. I have another question around clause 12, but I think, for the meantime, if that\u2019s all right, I\u2019ll leave it there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00227c127ad58e164a36989f26a49738da8a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c127ad58e164a36989f26a49738da8a\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I agree with my colleague\u2014it\u2019s good to have the mask off to have this conversation. Yeah, thank you very much, Mr O\u2019Connor. I\u2019ve got a couple of points or questions I want to get into actually\u2014raised in the legislative statement but linked to Part 1 in terms of purpose, and then a question in regards to clause 10. But I guess it builds on some of the comments made by the Hon Paul Goldsmith regarding the consultation process. I would be interested to hear from the Minister in regards to the engagement process around the purpose of the bill with international providers in particular as part of that tripartite group that he has referenced. In particular to that, I refer to the legislative statement where it talks about a strong and world-leading film industry, maintaining competition\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201Cbetween businesses offering this production.\u201D Obviously this sector is an international sector. It involves multiple players from multiple countries, and one would simply assume and hope, no doubt, that we have included dialogue and feedback from those providers as part of the process that\u2019s been undertaken to draft this bill. So I think some clarification as to what that looks like would be very helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EAgain, still related to Part 1, Section B of the regulatory impact statement is around any assessment around cost benefits, revenue implications in regards to this. These players, global players, will be assessing pros and cons of each jurisdiction. They\u2019ll be assessing the implications of such legislation on their underlying ability to produce the film, both in terms of access to workforce but also other aspects. So I\u2019m keen to understand whether that group actually undertook any assessment, peer review, or comparative analysis between where New Zealand sits pre and post this legislation in regards to the context of other providers internationally. I can only assume that we would have made sure that we were still competitive in that sector, but some clarification from the Minister on that second point would also be interesting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe third question and then I\u2019ll sit down\u2014I have a large number of other questions, but I\u2019ll finish for now on this one at the moment. [Interruption] I do like to make predictions\u2014you\u2019re very much on script, Simon, in terms of your feedback. So I\u2019m looking at clause 10, \u201CInterpretation\u201D, under Part 1. I\u2019m interested to see there that game developers are actually included in the scope of this bill. Maybe I\u2019m just old-school but I was thinking about making movies and making films. The skill set around game developers being included in the screen industry is something I\u2019d like a bit of clarification on. Why is that the case? It looks like an addition in terms of the way it\u2019s been drafted, so a bit of context around that would be helpful. I\u2019ll leave it at that. Thank you, Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022c679309fff4b4bfeb34a143ecfaac90a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c679309fff4b4bfeb34a143ecfaac90a\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Just a further sort of clarification around the meaning of screen production worker, which is set out in clause 11. Again, one of the arguments put forward for this bill is that it\u2019s a low-paid industry, and, of course, the regulatory impact statement points out on the post-production side, that highly skilled workers are in high demand globally and earn, on average, $150,000 annually, which most New Zealanders wouldn\u2019t describe as a poorly paid industry. So I just wondered whether he\u2019d given any consideration to limiting this to the production side, as opposed to the post-production side, and, if not, why not, and how far it goes. I mean, does it include the people in charge of transport, the contractors there, the contractors for catering? Broadly speaking, all these elements being sort of contracts, does it mean the hotels that people stay in, and the workers in the hotels, the planes they go in\u2014I don\u2019t know. All these issues, I suppose it\u2019s just a sort of a question of the rationale for where he drew the line in this legislation, including production and post-production, and what he was trying to achieve by that would be useful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo if we come back to the broader point, this is legislation that\u2019s been quiet for a couple of years. The Minister mentioned COVID, but, of course, this was introduced early in 2020\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7eb54ee553b4e67a6cc8e724cec7061\u0022\u003EMarja Lubeck\u003C/span\u003E: That was kind of when COVID started.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e5b226da5284ba891015088bf3033ed\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Pardon?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291a66ddc20f14ff3bb6c16db081ba6a6\u0022\u003EMarja Lubeck\u003C/span\u003E: That was kind of when COVID started.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022664234f90f794c22b379254eeb370882\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Do you understand that or are you just stupid in the head?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f944237d289a4ab59a29497104be8da6\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: No; I didn\u2019t pick up what the member was saying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bf4e81e6b6f47fdb5fc14f6d898de8c\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, you can\u2019t understand English!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228e5a889c30944a59533416f8c9104fd\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, ah\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220347b63c7fa54c98bc31284ba04e7e11\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: You don\u2019t understand anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d0183a2f2284a59add61dbeca4af11d\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and I\u2019m coming under withering fire from Willie Jackson, who I thought had only one topic, which is the new democracy that nobody had voted for, but, obviously, he has other topics that he can talk about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo, anyway, getting back to this bill, I\u2019d be keen to get some better understandings from the Minister about the nature of the screen production workers, so we can get a better idea about that, because just remember that all these people, most of whom are individual contractors\u2014this bill proposes to do away with that basic sort of section of the Commerce Act which says that independent sort of contractors and different companies cannot and should not collude or form cartels to negotiate things. So we\u2019re taking a slice out of our economy, and a kind of random one which sort of goes out from all sorts of directions\u2014there is transport and catering and post-production and, presumably, marketing of movies; I don\u2019t know\u2014and extracts them from very important provisions in the Commerce Act. So I just wanted to sort of get a sense of why he chose to include what he included and what his thinking was behind that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u002228607da8aed5499c8f4c118e4d66ecd1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228607da8aed5499c8f4c118e4d66ecd1\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E In respect of the question about why the workers who are included in the provisions of this bill are there, I have responded to that in previous answers. It may not be to the satisfaction of members opposite, but I have provided that response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EIn answer to the questions that both Mr O\u2019Connor and Mr Goldsmith asked about peripheral sort of work as a security guard or a catering company that delivers the odd meal, or someone like that, those types of worker are specifically considered to be peripheral within the terms of the Act and are not captured by its collective bargaining provisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EIn respect of the questions around timing, I\u2019ve actually just confirmed for myself that the commencement of the bill, of course, is not actually covered in Part 1, so we can, I\u2019m sure, talk about that later on in the debate when we do get to the relevant part there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EIn respect of broader costs and benefits, those are reflected in the regulatory impact statement. The costs are generally assessed to be in the low to medium zone. And, of course, the main thing I would note in respect of this and in respect of our engagement with international production houses is that this is the norm internationally. It\u2019s generally normal that workers in this sector are able to collectively bargain. What\u2019s actually abnormal, in this case, was that the previous Government took that right away from workers in New Zealand. So I don\u2019t think there\u2019s anything that\u2019s going to be particularly alarming to international companies who deal with this on every production they do in most other countries, to have to do the same thing here in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EIn respect of game developers\u2014there was a particular question around them\u2014they were included in the provisions of the\u2014we\u2019re using the colloquial term here, so I\u2019ll carry on using it\u2014\u201CHobbit law\u201D and so they\u2019ve carried over in that respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u0022a594c570c12b4003807850eb6c820c21\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a594c570c12b4003807850eb6c820c21\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to reiterate the question again to the Minister, for him to give some examples to the committee of the premise of the low wages and who he or his officials compared that with. It\u2019s feeling a bit like a saga now\u2014not the sort of Norse sagas, we\u2019re not quite at that level yet; more a Tolkien-esque saga\u2014that he won\u2019t actually address that question and the very premise that underpins all parts of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESecondly, and to get really particular\u2014and he can get the legal beagles on to this\u2014we\u2019re sort of switching into, I don\u2019t know, Law \u0026amp; Order sort of mode, can he confirm that, in the likes of clause 11(1)(a), an individual actually means a natural person? I suspect it does, but let\u2019s just get into that, and then explain why.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282d203d2d0af482da0391cc140933b2f\u0022\u003EMaureen Pugh\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a bit messy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225076e9692ab7409d84ce77d9beedbc44\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I know. I\u2019m just trying to actually sound, really, like I know what I\u2019m talking about, but actually I sort of do. But, anyway, just to make it really clear that, when they talk about individuals, they\u2019re meaning a legal person. Think of that as more of a documentary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EAnother question he might choose to engage with is why, again, in this massive opus of a Supplementary Order Paper (SOP), he decided to strip out the overview of the Act. It\u2019s sort of like the precursor in a Star Wars movie, which gives you a bit of an overview of what\u2019s going to happen. So why has that been removed? We all know that\u2019s the exciting part of a film, and I\u2019m sure, by extension, the exciting part of the bill. So why, in his SOP, has he stripped out clause 4?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThen, switching now to what is clause 12, before Part 1A, talking about what productions are in and not in. That\u2019s in Schedule 2, as the Minister will know, but, of course, because he\u2019s very fastidious, it relates to Part 1. It\u2019s building a little bit on what Simon Watts asked, and the Minister accurately said why computer-generated games are in, but I\u2019m a little miffed as to why the likes of recreational leisure programmes, for example, or variety show programmes are not included. I\u2019m not going to give specific examples; that could be seen as a shout-out. I suppose, as an MP, I\u2019m allowed to do this, unlike Ministers. But why we\u2019ve ultimately done this split\u2014I can understand why some live-event programmes, religious programmes, talk shows are exempted, but one can think of examples where there is, if you will, a wider production of ongoing variety programmes or recreational leisure programmes, which, arguably, could have fitted into clause 1 of Schedule 2. So it\u2019s really just trying to tease that out a bit, Minister, as to why we\u2019ve done this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EBut I may, if I might, come back to your earlier point, which was the earlier legislation. You keep referring to the \u201CHobbit law\u201D\u2014it had this split. So we\u2019d just sort of welcome a slight expansion on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002290d3368aed3b4c7caf949ea49e376f1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290d3368aed3b4c7caf949ea49e376f1f\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair, and I must say I am enjoying, and I do appreciate, the Minister coming back with responses to all those questions. On this side of the Chamber, we\u2019ll maintain to ensure that we\u2019re covering our new content. So we\u2019ll move to looking at\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b726171782b745be9fc5b38a921986a1\u0022\u003ESimon O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a sequel!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226818d0e25bcc4504b5c8e28c4415f33b\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: It is a sequel, actually. The NeverEnding Story, maybe? Who knows! This is going to be good; I\u2019m enjoying this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EPart 1, clause 11\u2014and I do apologise to the Minister, because I\u2019m going to give him a little bit of income tax\u2014a little bit of income tax. I just couldn\u2019t help myself. The reason why is because I think there are few questions here that we need to explore. So it\u2019s clause 11(3)\u2014and particularly there looking at paragraph (a). The comment here in clause 11 (3) is around the definition around \u201Ccompany, partnership, individual \u2026 does not primarily engage in work relating to the creation of screen productions \u2026\u201D, and all that\u2019s reasonable, and then there\u2019s paragraph (a), which says\u201C derived less than 50% of its \u2026 annual gross income (within the meaning of the Income Tax Act \u2026)\u201D, etc., etc. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe point that I\u2019ve got a question about for the Minister is around the statement saying \u201Cfrom work relating to the creation of screen productions in the previous 3 financial years\u201D. Why I\u2019ve got a question on, obviously, as we all know, the impact of COVID and the impact of us transitioning out of COVID, and acknowledging when this bill will start, that three-year period looking retrospectively is obviously going to include the implications of periods of time in which there will be very little, if any, production work undertaken here because of the implications around the closed border. My question to the Minister or officials in regards to that is: what consideration has been given in regards to why the three previous financial years was decided upon? How is that going to work in the context of\u2014because it\u2019s a de minimis around 50 percent\u2014if, for example, the last two years have been impacted heavily by COVID, what that may have? And what, if anything, in terms of that will be\u2014and I guess the question is: is there any consideration or transitionary options in regards to that specific point? I don\u2019t think it\u2019s unreasonable to foresee that as we transition out of where we are at the moment, there may be some implications or some unintended consequences, I guess, in regards to that point of the bill. It would be helpful in terms of getting some clarity on that. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u002266f26f64233e4554bfe8f9feee3797fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266f26f64233e4554bfe8f9feee3797fa\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E In answer to a number of the questions that have been raised: firstly, in clause 11\u2014I think it was Mr Simon O\u2019Connor who asked this question\u2014yes, we are referring to natural persons in that clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThe wording in clause 4 was removed. It wasn\u2019t an operative provision, and further consultation and engagement with stakeholders basically said, \u201CWell, look, this doesn\u2019t add anything. It\u2019s unnecessary.\u201D and good legislative design tends to tell us that if something is not really necessary, it potentially gets in the way and creates confusion. So it was just seen as a good matter of legislative design to remove that, given that it wasn\u2019t particularly doing anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EIn respect of which types of productions are included and which are not, this was largely arrived at as a result of that tripartite process with the producers, unions, and guilds who are involved, who had an assessment as to which types of productions it would be appropriate to include.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003ESimilarly, looking back for three financial years, as I understand it, came out of that discussion, in the tripartite working groups as being an appropriate level time to look back and provide some useful information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u002282448e102186437aa9d208318d026f9f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282448e102186437aa9d208318d026f9f\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022441c4d54f9464f4e86ed05b018ed1fe1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022441c4d54f9464f4e86ed05b018ed1fe1\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I appreciate the question that I asked in regards to income tax was probably reasonably complex, and I acknowledge that officials, no doubt, are beavering away and coming up with a simple response. So I want to buy a little bit of time just for the officials to be able to advise the Minister in regards to the question I raised on Part 1, clause 11(3)(a) and (b), in regards to why it\u2019s three financial years and what the implication is around COVID\u2014and I\u2019ll keep going. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s another aspect I just wanted to seek clarification on as well, just while we\u2019ve got a little bit of time\u2014and I\u2019m sure that that answer is coming because it\u2019s pretty important\u2014and it\u2019s in regards to clause 11(4). This refers to the comments around support services in regards to the \u201Cperipheral contribution to the creation of a screen production:\u201D. Paragraphs (a) and (b) of the definition of \u201Csupport services\u201D\u2014paragraph (a), particularly\u2014all seem reasonable, but paragraph (b) is the one which raised my eyebrows a little bit, and it\u2019s one of those catch-alls: \u201Cany other services of a similar nature\u201D. When you look at what it\u2019s referring to, and I\u2019m assuming it\u2019s referring to paragraph (a) above, there are such words like \u201Cmanagement, and representation services:\u201D, and so those are pretty generic terms. Then you\u2019ve got a follow-up of paragraph (b), and my question to the Minister is what is his expectation of what will be captured by paragraph (b) in regards to any other services of a similar nature? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EFollowing on from that, why then is\u2014I\u2019m just trying to quote the linkage around that definition of \u201Cvolunteer\u201D, which is then directly below that, and I\u2019m struggling just to understand. Maybe it\u2019s just the way in which I\u2019m reading that. How the volunteer statement, or the definition of what a \u201Cvolunteer\u201D is\u2014maybe just helping me a little bit in terms of that. Is that linking to paragraph (b) above, or is it just sitting there? It doesn\u2019t seem to be linked to anything in the bill. So a little bit clarification by the Minister just on those two points would be preferable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National): I\u2019m not entirely sure just in terms of Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 234 relating to Part 1 of Schedule 1. It talks about contracts entered into \u201Cbefore commencement of this Act\u201D, and I\u2019m not sure whether this is the right part to be discussing it. I think it is, but the Minister\u2019s SOP changes it so that when a screen production has occurred, like all the ones that are occurring at the moment, and everybody has entered into their contracts and everything\u2019s fine under the one set of rules, this legislation says under the Minister\u2019s SOP\u2014originally, it said that \u201CThe terms and conditions of the \u2026 contract [would] apply for 12 months after the commencement of this Act, as if the Act had not been enacted.\u201D, which would mean that after 12 months, if it was a long production, whatever people had arranged could be unarranged or rearranged following this Act. But that was changed under the SOP to say that \u201CThe provisions of this Act, \u2026 apply to a \u2026 contract from the date [that] this Act comes into force.\u201D So I\u2019d like to know why the Minister changed it and what impact does he think it will have on current productions and what advice has he had on that\u2014does he know what it would mean? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019re talking about the industry\u2019s perception of this country, because he mentioned that everybody else in the world does this. OK, not everybody else in the world is quite as remote as New Zealand. We\u2019re the last bus stop in the world and there are a lot of other places in the world that you can go to, and so it\u2019s a big decision to come all the way here. International companies look at the situation in New Zealand and wonder what the environment is. If they find that they\u2019ve made an arrangement, got contracts signed, got a budget in place, and got themselves all organised and know what they\u2019re doing and know where they\u2019re going, and then the Government passes a law and says that all of that can be rearranged by collective bargaining, potentially, in certain circumstances\u2014and I\u2019m not quite sure what\u2014then that could be potentially alarming. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019d just like the Minister to explain that and what his rationale for change was, what advice he\u2019s had on what impact it will have on existing arrangements, and, if there is any significant impact, what impact that would have on the broader confidence that the sector has in terms of planning things which are of great cost and substance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u002285dd6a6c589a42a7a60b4e0336eb7af5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002285dd6a6c589a42a7a60b4e0336eb7af5\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, if I can respond to a couple of further questions. The two questions from Mr Watts are, effectively about threshold questions\u2014who\u2019s brought into the ambit of the Act and who\u2019s not, so clause 11(3)(a) and (b) refer to, effectively, looking back three years and the 50 percent threshold. As I said before, you\u2019ve effectively got to have some sort of an assessment as to the degree to which people are primarily employed doing this kind of work. You wouldn\u2019t want a situation where you have a de minimis, which is very low, and maybe, you know, 1 percent of the person\u2019s earnings over a period of time have been from this kind of work\u2014you wouldn\u2019t necessarily be wanting to catch them within that. So the provisions at clause 11(3)(a) and (b) are, effectively, about establishing a reasonable threshold, and, as advised previously, that was worked through with the screen industry working group, which included the producers, the unions, and the guilds, and they thought that was reasonable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EIn respect of how that impacts the tax affairs of the person concerned, given the nature of the employment relationship is that the person is a contractor, the individual will need to work through what their tax obligations are there. But I don\u2019t actually think there would necessarily be a huge impact for them there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EIn terms of volunteers, clause 11(4) is simply confirming that people who might be there in some sort of a volunteer capacity, the legislation will not provide to them, and the various bargaining rights and other things that are contained in the legislation will not apply to someone like, perhaps, a student who has come in to have a look at a production for a few hours and get a bit of experience about how these things work and is sweeping the floor\u2014they won\u2019t need to get brought into the ambit of the legislation. So the meaning of the volunteer is simply the normal meaning of the word \u201Cvolunteer\u201D, and that is there to ensure that we don\u2019t inadvertently bring in a group of people for whom there was never any intention to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EIn respect of Mr Goldsmith\u2019s questions, I mean, they really go to the fundamental reason why we have this piece of legislation in place. The Government\u2019s view is that we\u2019re actually dealing with some pretty fundamental rights that workers have, and should have, and that are generally internationally recognised\u2014that being the right to engage in collective bargaining. It\u2019s not the view of the Government that we should be taking away what are fundamental international labour rights for any reason, including the whims and wishes of international companies. Those are basic building blocks of a decent, civilised society. International labour rights, including the right to collectively bargain, are generally considered, under international jurisprudence, to be an important part of the human rights framework. So we simply don\u2019t have any truck with the arguments that there might be someone who wants to invest here that wants us to remove fundamental rights and, therefore, we should do that\u2014we just don\u2019t accept that. The member opposite might, but that is a fundamental difference of view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EIn respect of when the Act comes into force as reflected in the Supplementary Order Paper, that is simply a pragmatic and straightforward arrangement, as I\u2019ve described before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u002242721f45ca6c47d7b300acfa56cdb40e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242721f45ca6c47d7b300acfa56cdb40e\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E I think the Minister sort of missed the point of my question\u2014I think, perhaps, wilfully. The point I was making was that normally when laws are changed, they apply to new decisions going on from after the law been has been passed so that people know what they\u2019re dealing with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EIn this circumstance, what is being envisaged by the bill is that a production that all been organised, been set in place, under rules that were clearly understood and established, now are being told, midway through, that the rules can change and it could be very different. And it\u2019s not just applying to new decisions, where companies are deciding, \u201COK, where are we going to do this? Are we going to do this in New Zealand? What\u2019s the situation here?\u201D and they see the legislation in place and they know what they\u2019re doing and so they make a decision about that. And if the Minister is right that nobody is worried about this sort of stuff, well then they\u2019ll continue to invest in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EBut what\u2019s happening in this bill is that midway through, the rules of the game will change for existing arrangements. I would have thought there was a pretty good argument for not applying it directly to pre-commencement contracts. I would have thought there would be a good argument, certainly, at the least, for extending it 12 months, as the bill originally did, so that most productions apart from, presumably, a very few long-term ones will have been concluded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo to moot the change under the Supplementary Order Paper, which is not debated on\u2014I presume it wasn\u2019t something that the working group debated; the group that the Minister seems to say came up with everything in this bill, and clearly didn\u2019t. I\u2019m sure they didn\u2019t recommend that, but I\u2019d be interested know from the Minister whether they did and whether there has been widespread enthusiasm for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESecondly, on the question of the industry, sort of, views at the moment around timing, I wonder if he could just tell us whether he had received any correspondence from elements of the industry encouraging him not to pass this bill or make it happen immediately and alerting him to the fact that they needed more time. I\u2019d just be interested to know if he could give us any indication around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022be60dc5d09a243b08b96653d631d176d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be60dc5d09a243b08b96653d631d176d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Ian McKelvie)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to take a call from Simon Watts, but I think you\u2019re starting to scratch around the chicken coop a bit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3698da1372547ae9bddc8945a10c50f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3698da1372547ae9bddc8945a10c50f\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I haven\u2019t seen that movie, but I will get into it. Look, I\u2019m referring to the regulatory impact statement and particularly section B and the subsection which, I quote, says that, \u201CGiven labour costs make up a large proportion of production budgets, any increase to worker earnings as a result of bargaining could mean that New Zealand becomes less cost-competitive destination for production companies compared to other countries.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EAnd to the question I asked earlier, the Minister provided an indication that it seemed to be that there was some input in regards to feedback from where New Zealand will sit with international peers in regards to this, and the Minister said that this seems to be consistent across other countries. But can the Minister just be specific in terms of the fact that\u2014well, just give us confidence that we\u2019ve compared ourselves against what we would consider our partners in this space, our neighbours, etc., and just be categoric around the fact that the assessment has been undertaken. Because, obviously, the officials have highlighted this concern, as well, in the regulatory impact statement. And so that adds further substantiation that this is actually an issue that does need to be considered appropriately, because no one wants to see us becoming less cost-competitive as a destination for production companies compared to other countries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe second aspect is just a small bit of clarification around when the Minister said that the costs to this would be low to medium. If he can just provide context in terms of range, of what low to medium actually means in terms of dollars, that would be very helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u00223cfafcc511a1495c8d5aa5a984e73d53\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223cfafcc511a1495c8d5aa5a984e73d53\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much. The saga continues. The increased trilogy of four parts. Part 1A\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291eb73dcf5a3410ab8808321ec1f98e6\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Four parts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f04ea519a55a447fac31c7743763d245\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, it\u2019s the increasingly misnamed trilogy in four parts; a very bad joke. Part 1A, which we haven\u2019t touched on\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b4a4374ddaf448dbefb162b469b9093\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Ian McKelvie)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019d just advise the member that Part 1A is the next part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208ca1a99e6b04f7180e9bafae3df5d6a\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Is part of Part 1? Yup. So why has he inserted the term \u201Cgood faith\u201D along with \u201Cfreedom of association\u201D? I think he would need to explain that to the committee, because in\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242bd09e3898b48cdaa62c00cdf4fdc33\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Ian McKelvie)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is part of the next debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1835a42e53346228d8531d9ce8cf80d\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, is it a separate debate? Oh, well, look, this is something to look forward to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022787ef4870fa143aa9bbc378a9c48f83e\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re ahead of your time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239ec9886615548248000f4c6e713c8e2\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I know. Well, something to look forward to. Well, look, I\u2019m not going to take up any more time. And I\u2019m looking forward to that being a whole separate part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7d52666069b4354bbc84da5c4f02a0f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Ian McKelvie)\u003C/span\u003E: I call the honourable Minister Michael Wood. Oh, he\u2019s sat down again. I call the honourable Minister Michael Wood.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u0022de413763b3e24389a39adb1a37d5c3ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de413763b3e24389a39adb1a37d5c3ad\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m enjoying myself so much. I can point Mr Watts to the regulatory impact statement, which I think he has, which provides, I think, some further information about possible costs. There is just a fundamental difference of views here. This legislation is proceeding because the Government has a view that it is a fundamental right of people to be able to engage in collective bargaining. We think that\u2019s important. We think it goes to important rights. We think it was wrong that those rights were taken away by a very targeted Act of Parliament at the time that that occurred. Now, that might well result in some increased labour costs, because collective bargaining, by its definition, is about addressing an imbalance in terms of bargaining power. But there is no evidence and no information we have to suggest that that will be significant or deleterious to the industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EIn respect to Mr Goldsmith\u2019s questions around the pre-commencement period, it\u2019s worth noting that in respect of Part 1\u2014it\u2019s one year\u2014we\u2019re just talking about the inclusion of the mandatory provisions in Part 1 here. And those are very basic things like the right to raise a complaint, there being a dispute resolution process, and those sorts of things. I don\u2019t think they\u2019re going to particularly alarm anyone in respect of the provisions of Part 1. I think those are probably the key remaining questions that I had to answer there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022 data-id=\u0022a64f47d0cba3415ab21dde74bb645710\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a64f47d0cba3415ab21dde74bb645710\u0022\u003EIBRAHIM OMER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022586c021a03174eaf9c22099734d1bc62\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022 data-id=\u00224f5ac84c6f0d4a49a0b5a5360ceb2bda\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f5ac84c6f0d4a49a0b5a5360ceb2bda\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Ian McKelvie)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 1 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 234 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226fcf3246b48e4e8bb8635fe7591e4c13\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221d3bf3e60ab441b88f68c55ec49ac08b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228a07113fb181401293cd53544caac487\u0022\u003EPart 1A  Freedom of association\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022 data-id=\u00224728c39d6a4c4c788fa0815f6cd6d7fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224728c39d6a4c4c788fa0815f6cd6d7fd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Ian McKelvie)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 1A. This is the debate on clauses 12A to 12E, \u201CFreedom of association\u201D. The question is that Part 1A stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8769089ba4f4fb9847cf3b43c2cad42\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8769089ba4f4fb9847cf3b43c2cad42\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E Previously, on an earlier episode or part\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227737ad9c1e944b249f3df50a626d5c28\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Ian McKelvie)\u003C/span\u003E: Start again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022632f6fb7518d48ba863b5f206f4fa8d3\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I\u2019m just trying to understand why the Minister, in his Supplementary Order Paper (SOP), has inserted \u201Cgood faith\u201D alongside \u201Cfreedom of association.\u201D It\u2019s not that we\u2019re against good-faith bargaining\u2014that\u2019s, of course, important\u2014but I mean, the very nature of what this bill is doing is in many ways taking away the need for good faith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EOr rather, put in other terms, he\u2019s skewing the field\u2014the Minister is skewing the field of negotiations in discussions between screen industry workers and their employers, which makes it a little bit odd to then talk about \u201Cgood faith\u201D. So I want to be really, really clear to the Minister and to the committee that we\u2019re all for good faith on this side, but good-faith bargaining, good-faith discussions\u2014whatever it is\u2014generally works on a level playing field, and the copious amounts of pages here indicate that the Minister, as I say, trying to skew the field a little bit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThe second question is just for him to elaborate for the clarity of the committee\u2014because we are bouncing between the select committee\u2019s version of the bill and now his SOP\u2014and to define for us what he deems to be a \u201Cworker organisation\u201D and an \u201Cengager organisation\u201D. The only reference I find is I think\u2014I jump now to clause 65A, in his SOP\u2014\u201Cincorporated society\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESo I suppose I\u2019m just trying to get a quick understanding\u2014and please, I\u2019m not trying to trifle, through the Chair, with the Minister\u2014to get a bit of a handle on it. Because if I\u2019m reading the legislation right\u2014or wrong, both are possible; perhaps the latter\u2014is it implied that a worker organisation or an engager organisation has to be an incorporated society? Because that\u2019s all that I see referenced in clause 65A. Where do unions fit within this? Is it arguable that a screen worker does not have to be part of a union? Is that covered within it? I hope that clarifies it enough; I\u2019m sorry about my confusion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022ffd873aa7ed24033b9c9a6cacb23da73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ffd873aa7ed24033b9c9a6cacb23da73\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Ian McKelvie)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for me to leave the Chair. The committee will return at 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002219a0dc2d9a2f49bda549cea28a2df223\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219a0dc2d9a2f49bda549cea28a2df223\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the committee is resumed on Part 1A of the Screen Industry Workers Bill. I call on the Minister, the Hon Michael Wood.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u0022aef9a5150a8d49e7bbe291cc0ec8439c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aef9a5150a8d49e7bbe291cc0ec8439c\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Just before we headed off for dinner, there were a couple of questions from Mr O\u2019Connor which were about the fact that the Supplementary Order Paper that I have tabled effectively shifts the good-faith provisions of the bill from Part 2 into Part 1A. The member was questioning why that was; they\u2019re now in clauses 12AA and 12AB. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EEffectively, if one looks at the structure of the bill, Part 2 primarily deals with individual contracts. As we looked at the structure of the bill, it seemed more appropriate to put these provisions into Part 1A. We don\u2019t want the provisions that relate to good faith just to apply to processes around individual contracts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EGood faith is one of the fundamental constructs of employment relationships in New Zealand. It\u2019s been an established part of the framework since the 2001 commencement of the Employment Relations Act. It\u2019s well understood by people generally, albeit its provisions are generally a little bit narrower in the context of this legislation. Really, just moving it into Part 1A is about ensuring that good faith applies across all of the actions that parties might undertake under this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u00221071423f94794bc4bb47db66e94ce0f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221071423f94794bc4bb47db66e94ce0f0\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E To thank the Minister\u2014and look, it\u2019s not worth the debate in terms of what he perceives as narrowing versus this side of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EWould he mind just clarifying for the committee the definition of \u201Cworker organisation\u201D and \u201Cengager organisation\u201D? I apologise to him if I\u2019ve completely misread things, but it references, I think, clause 65A and that\u2019s incorporated societies. I\u2019m just trying to get a bit of a handle on whether I\u2019ve misunderstood whether these organisations need to be incorporated societies or not, and where the place of unions are\u2014as I quickly try to scroll to it and I apologise to him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EYeah, if I have it right, it is referencing clause 65A, that talks about \u201CIncorporated society may apply to register as worker organisation or engager organisation\u201D. I\u2019m just wanting to make sure that that\u2019s not exclusive, and just to define it more widely if that\u2019s possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u002227d98835a05d4db086c1da7e571801b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227d98835a05d4db086c1da7e571801b8\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E In response to that question, the member\u2019s right that this references through to clause 65A, which talks about worker and engager organisations. That\u2019s appropriate because it\u2019s Part 5 that effectively brings together some of the mechanisms that sit behind the bill and the way that things will work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EBoth worker organisations and engager organisations will need to be incorporated societies, so they\u2019ll have a particular legal form. Worker organisations, for example, will likely be unions and guilds who represent the collective interests of members. They\u2019ll need to have requirements as per clause 65B(2), such as having the objective of promoting their members\u2019 collective work interests and having democratic rules. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003ESo there\u2019ll be nothing here that\u2019s particularly unusual or new for organisations who engage in this space, say through the processes of the Employment Relations Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab259177b9634aada1d763087e387d51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab259177b9634aada1d763087e387d51\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Michael Wood\u2019s amendments to Part 1A set out on Supplementary Order Paper 234 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ad1f1225e6194331abc7fe0cff49440a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002201d2d395796c45a7ad68669dbaf53795\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1A as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1A as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226547503627b246778b7b50f1f281cfbb\u0022\u003EPart 2  Workplace relationships and individual contracts\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca8e28e1d5ae4af99a21561292d2a6c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca8e28e1d5ae4af99a21561292d2a6c9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 2, which is the debate on clauses 13 to 20, \u201CWorkplace relationships and individual contracts\u201D. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u0022d67ba10bb7cf490589a1a4231a54944f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d67ba10bb7cf490589a1a4231a54944f\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Part 2 deals specifically with matters pertaining to individual contracts under the bill. It doesn\u2019t deal with occupation or enterprise-based bargaining. It focuses purely on individual contracts and relationships between workers and engagers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EA couple of things that are worth noting here, in terms of changes that have been made since this was last in the House: the select committee, I think, has made a couple of useful changes. My understanding is that, from the select committee\u2019s report, I think there was broad support for these, including expressed in the National Party minority view, in terms of just improving some of the baseline protections that will play out in individual contracts. The first is that engagers will be required to tell workers that they can seek individual advice before they engage in a contract, or be required to give those workers reasonable time to consider that advice before they confirm their intentions. And there will, secondly, be enhanced protection against terms that might prevent complaints being raised by the individual worker under those individual agreements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EI think probably the most noteworthy change that\u2019s proposed in the ministerial Supplementary Order Paper is additional provisions in clause 17, which extends prohibitions on retaliatory actions to include the non-renewal of contracts, which is a relatively significant tool, which you can imagine in this sector\u2014given that people are, by definition, contractors\u2014could have a significant impact on people. So it\u2019s just making it very clear that there can\u2019t be retaliatory action, in response to complaints that have been made, through the non-renewal of contracts. So, again, effectively, the changes from both the select committee and the Supplementary Order Paper are about extending some of those basic protections for individuals who are engaging in contracting with an engager.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u0022061c22e757b742b4a22762b8e99bcf5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022061c22e757b742b4a22762b8e99bcf5c\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s actually to pick up on clause 17. I agree with the Minister: we do not want people being fired or having their contracts terminated because of that reason, but how does he perceive this working in reality, when, for example\u2019s sake, a screen worker is doing a very poor job but just claims that they are being retaliated against? How does he perceive that\u2019s going to work? Is this going to become an excuse, and how does he see that being moderated?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u002240c03d0dd9604d7d93dcec46d689bcd3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240c03d0dd9604d7d93dcec46d689bcd3\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Ultimately, the provisions of the bill will give the worker some basis to go to if they believe that they have a grievance in this area. They will have to resolve that grievance through the dispute resolution processes that are set up in the bill. Often that could be through directly raising the concern with the employer, it could be seeking the assistance of mediation services, or more formal legal processes\u2014so not dissimilar to the processes that we would expect to see playing out in other employment relationship issues. We can\u2019t guarantee any outcome through the legislation that we provide, but we can set very clear standards which can then be tested legally based on the evidence that\u2019s available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3ad3149767d4a14aaa3dfa672315259\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3ad3149767d4a14aaa3dfa672315259\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Just following up on that, I mean, just how does somebody enter the mind of an engager, as it\u2019s called here\u2014it\u2019s a film producer presumably or something like that who\u2019s hired somebody. Clause 17(1), included in Supplementary Order Paper 234, says, \u201CAn engager must not terminate or refuse to renew a screen production worker\u2019s contract if the decision to do so is motivated, wholly or partly, by the exercise or proposed exercise by the worker of any right\u201D. And so somehow, somewhere along the way, when it comes to renewing a contract\u2014which usually most people would regard as something that you have a right to do, or not\u2014somehow we\u2019ve got to get into the mind of the motivations of the person, and I\u2019d just be intrigued, from the Minister, as to how you think that would work in in practice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EI\u2019m also interested in the question of\u2014so all individual contracts have to have everything, it seems, included in a collective contract, if there is one in place, and then can improve on it in terms of conditions. But you\u2019re limiting the ability to have any lesser conditions as part of an individual contract, and I was just curious\u2014I could understand partly the thinking behind it, but is not the purpose of an individual contract, assuming that it is within all the other laws of the land, in terms of minimum wage and all those sorts of things and provisions\u2014why it has to be exactly the same as the collective contract.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c3cd636ba0e3406b90cca22d9ace2afb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c3cd636ba0e3406b90cca22d9ace2afb\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Responding to the first question raised by the member, it goes back to my previous comments, really. We can provide wording in the legislation to make it very clear that it is not appropriate to take this kind of retaliatory action in response to people raising complaints. The fact that there\u2019s an intents-based test here, and I think the precise wording\u2014where am I?\u2014in clause 17 here, is \u201Cif the decision \u2026 is motivated, wholly or partly, by the exercise or proposed exercise by the worker of any right, power, authority, or remedy\u201D. I mean, ultimately, this is where authorities who are hearing complaints will need to make judgments based on evidence that is presented by the different parties. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThat is no different from other aspects of employment law where intent may come into it, or indeed criminal law or other aspects of the law where competent authorities need to assess the evidence that parties with different views put before them to determine whether it is likely that that happened. And so we need to leave it with those authorities to determine. The important thing here is to draw a very clear line in the sand and say that it would not be acceptable, in the view of this Parliament, for someone to have their contract terminated purely because they had raised a legitimate complaint, for example, about discrimination, bullying, or harassment, which I don\u2019t think is something that any of us would wish to see.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EIn respect of the member\u2019s second question, the building blocks of bargaining, under this legislation, are, effectively, that we look to put in place minimum standards, should worker organisations choose to initiate for them at the occupational level, then potentially the enterprise level, and then the individual level. So it\u2019s about having base standards that are developed at the occupational level, which will likely be more general. But then the bill very specifically provides for the additional flexibility for there to be individual conditions that are negotiated at that level. This is partly a response to some of the critiques that have been put forward that this is about inflexibility. Well, no, it\u2019s not, because we clearly build into the legislation that leaves the ability for there to be individual bargaining on top of that core basic set of terms and conditions that will get bargained at the occupational level.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002211cabb30b5f1465ca2234646300414db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211cabb30b5f1465ca2234646300414db\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I wanted to move on to a different section of Subpart 2, and that is in regards to clause 20, which relates to penalties relating to individual contracts. The specific clauses that I\u2019m interested in there are 1AAA and 1AAB in particular, in regards to noting that \u201CAn engager is liable to a penalty under this Act if the engager enters into an individual contract that includes a term that has the effect of breaching \u2026\u201D, and then 1AAB, again, relating to those penalties. My questions are in regards to the scope of these penalties, and seeking clarification from the Minister in terms of how he sees these new arrangements working in practice, particularly around the penalty aspect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe second point of that is around the scope of what those penalties could or will entail. And the third aspect is in terms of the process or if there will be any process in terms of when these arrangements are in play, what arrangements will there be in regards to subsequent review or monitoring, in regards to ensuring that that aspect around penalties relating to individual contracts is appropriate and fit for purpose and, I guess, balanced in regards to the nature of, you know, penalties applied to the circumstance of the individual.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s the three or four questions that I\u2019ve got, again, in regards to Part 2, clause 20 of the bill. [Bell rung] Thank you much, Madam Chair. I do know and I do acknowledge the Minister that we\u2019ve had a reasonably good session in terms of back and forth. So we\u2019ll just go to another area of questioning just to provide a little bit of time and capacity for officials just to come back on, on a couple of those previous questions, because I think they are appropriate, and we\u2019ll keep moving.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo I think in regards to the penalty portion that I was referring to before, I think the element that, in particular, I\u2019m interested in hearing about is in terms of the scope in terms of the range in which those penalties involve, and in what is the expectation in terms of baseline in terms of the de minimis in terms of when those penalties will come into play and when they won\u2019t. In particular, what are the agencies or what are the groups that are going to be involved in terms of enforcement around that penalty regime? As I mentioned, I think the clarity around the monitoring and review of that would be useful context just so that we can understand the scope of the implications of that clause within the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u0022784ef437786c421ca32b4212096268cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022784ef437786c421ca32b4212096268cf\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for his questions about penalties. These provisions link through to Part 4, which does set out much more information about how the penalty regime will apply. They can potentially be applied by the Employment Relations Authority, and depending on whether it\u2019s an individual or a body corporate, penalties of up to $10,000 or $20,000 can apply for various breaches of provisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EIn terms of there being a testing out as to the appropriateness of that regime, really, it\u2019s the same as the rest of our employment relations legislative regime in that parties are able to test their cases with that particular authority and then will have appeal rights if they believe that they have been treated inappropriately. Of course ultimately, there is a role for this House to keep an eye on things and to ensure that they are being applied appropriately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022e526b3b6fe844282b83d46710e6f4fdc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e526b3b6fe844282b83d46710e6f4fdc\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. In his opening intervention in Part 2, Minister Wood made some interesting comments about National\u2019s support for aspects of it, as set out in the National Party view in the Education and Workforce Committee report. That is true, but that doesn\u2019t mean we can support Part 2 in its entirety. One of the reasons for that is that it\u2019s largely redundant: it sets out a range of obligations that are already in law. The most obvious one of those is the Health and Safety at Work Act. The bill, basically, requires the parties to comply with the Act. Well, we don\u2019t need another piece of legislation to say that the Health and Safety at Work Act should be complied with. Whether one is an employee, a contractor, an employer, a host: they all form a part of the transaction, in the Health and Safety at Work Act\u2014as I\u2019m sure the Minister knows, because he\u2019s responsible for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EAn obligation to comply with the Human Rights Act\u2014well, of course those are obligations. An obligation to act in good faith is actually set out in a wide range of contract law, both black-letter law and judge-made law. So, really, when we look through Part 2, nobody can disagree that people shouldn\u2019t mislead or deceive, that they should act in good faith, that they should describe the nature of the relationship and embark on the responsibilities that are set out in Subpart 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EBut this is kind of emblematic of this bill overall: it is a solution looking for a problem, and the biggest problem, frankly, is the fact that the unions want to look after people who want to have it both ways: (a) the benefits of independent contractor relationships, and the protection of employment if things go wrong, which was the uncertainty that the film makers had in 2009 when they wanted to come and make the hobbit movies. So I say to the Minister\u2014and he can take a call and disagree with me if he wishes, but there is very little, if anything, in Part 2 that is not already set out either in case law or statute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc9450ad81da468fb4b43ead0245812b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc9450ad81da468fb4b43ead0245812b\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m happy to take a call on those matters. My understanding is that in respect of the references both to the Health and Safety at Work Act and Human Rights Act obligations, it was a particular request of the working group for these provisions to be reflected in the legislation so that it was crystal clear that they applied, given that we are dealing with a relatively novel piece of legislation and a new set of employment relationships. It was their wish that these be in here. The member is right that those provisions would apply regardless\u2014one can consider it to be belts and braces, if we want to describe it that way\u2014but that is why that is reflected here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a little bit different, I think, with the good-faith provisions, in that it isn\u2019t the case that good-faith provisions would naturally apply to contractor arrangements. Good-faith provisions are embedded in employment law to guide relationships between employers and employees; they wouldn\u2019t automatically flow to contractors, unless they are specifically embedded in the legislation, as we\u2019ve done here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022b5ca60442e4c441eba9ced95b24bce3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b5ca60442e4c441eba9ced95b24bce3f\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I would make two points\u2014I appreciate Minister Wood\u2019s response, but I would make two points in that regard. One, the very fact that a working group asked for something doesn\u2019t compel a Minister to grant it. Actually, one of the roles of a Minister is to say, \u201CGood idea\u2014we\u2019re not going to do it, because it\u2019s not necessary.\u201D I think, again, that\u2019s emblematic of a Government that seems to be led more by working groups than by independent thought and careful consideration. There is no need to reinforce the Health and Safety at Work Act in this bill, or the Human Rights Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EAs far as duties of good faith, that\u2019s not entirely correct. A person can take a course of action for breach of contract for a number of reasons, not the least of which could be misleading or deceptive behaviour in the contract negotiation process, particularly if the courts deemed that to be harsh or oppressive behaviour, or if there was misleading information. So, again, this is kind of belts and braces, but it\u2019s wholly unnecessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022 data-id=\u00228e090620dcb84570977f291c49852858\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e090620dcb84570977f291c49852858\u0022\u003EMARJA LUBECK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e2b98740f15b4531932839510384a260\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00225579e634b9af428fab6ad46347de6533\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225579e634b9af428fab6ad46347de6533\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 2 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 234 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e2c613b776d94763aef5b2a3c15a0798\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226ee9fbcbfda348f68b14445da430b3b2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227e45e2690db241babdb46c99d4e6668a\u0022\u003EPart 3  Collective bargaining\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00225e7c15b53fc44e8fb1032496d1fc00e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e7c15b53fc44e8fb1032496d1fc00e4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 3. This is the debate on clauses 21 to 55, on \u201CCollective bargaining\u201D. The question is that Part 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac09652f99334380853509a3a53c2d1e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac09652f99334380853509a3a53c2d1e\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you kindly, Madam Chair. I\u2019m happy to say a few words at the beginning of this part. Part 3 primarily deals with collective bargaining matters. As we\u2019ve traversed over the course of the debate, this is a substantial part of the legislation that\u2019s before the committee this evening. The bill and the entire working group process that preceded it was established to deal with this fundamental problem that collective bargaining had, effectively, been taken away by a targeted piece of legislation under the previous Government, and we did not believe that that was a fair, equitable, or appropriate situation to have. As I\u2019ve said specifically before, that was by dint of workers in the sector being classified by legislation as \u201Ccontractors\u201D rather than \u201Cemployees\u201D and having their ability to test that right in the courts was taken away by that legislation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a876c64dfbfa4f42aa1bac01545195ff\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: They classified themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282279543df6a48d7b9c4ad2cb1a3a8a9\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that was put through under urgency, Mr Woodhouse. So the grand bargain, as I said at the beginning, effectively, under this legislation, is that the contracting arrangement is kept in place, but the workers concerned are able to access collective bargaining mechanisms. There are two collective-bargaining processes that can take place: occupational-level collective bargaining and enterprise-level collective bargaining, depending on how worker engagers wish to engage with those processes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThere are a number of changes which are worth noting. The Education and Workforce Committee has proposed a number of changes to streamline the bargaining process, in particular the process around variations to collective contracts. In Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 234, the things which I would draw to the attention of the committee are that there has been a change to put in place, in terms of ratification of collective contracts, that they need to be done by a majority of those who vote, rather than a majority of those who are covered by the contract. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003ESecondly, that there is a simpler process around replacement signatories, in the event that that is necessary, given the passage of time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EAnd, thirdly, in terms of the fact\u2014and we discussed this in the Part 2 debate\u2014that there is, effectively, a cascading situation whereby occupational-level contracts form base terms and conditions; enterprise collective contracts need to be as good as, or better than, the underlying occupational contract than the individual agreements more so. There\u2019s been a change here, whereas previously it was proposed that there would be sort of an overall test as to whether an enterprise-level contract was better than the occupational contract; that will now be done on a term-by-term basis. That was as a result of feedback and ongoing engagement with both sides\u2014unions, guilds, and producers\u2014as to what would be a more simple and streamlined and clearer way of making that assessment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003ESo those are some of the changes, both through the ministerial SOP and from the select committee, that are proposed to Part 3. I\u2019m happy to take any questions that do relate to Part 3. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00220e59bbb529a4431f994bb1fda1f91fef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e59bbb529a4431f994bb1fda1f91fef\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. And, yes, we do come to the crunchy part of the bill in relation to introducing collective bargaining to the screen workers industry areas, which hasn\u2019t been the case in the past.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EPeople might be surprised to learn that films have been made in the past in the absence of this collective bargaining and people haven\u2019t been driven to the edge of extinction. Actually, it\u2019s been a highly successful and prosperous business that has created many opportunities and jobs and livelihoods for many New Zealanders, and great films have been made and that\u2019s something that we\u2019re all very proud of. My favourite, well, in recent times, is probably Boy, actually\u2014we sat down with the family over the weekend and watched it. What a gripping film, very great film. I\u2019m not sure of the union arrangement in that film, but, nevertheless, it was made and it was good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe point is that the industry is in good heart. It continues to have many opportunities for these things to happen. So the Minister is out here, driven, we believe, primarily by ideology around this and is imposing, on this sector, significant changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESome of the languages that we\u2019re getting from people in the industry, firstly, are concerned about the adversarial sort of tinge that is coming back into the sector\u2014memorable from the bad days of the initial incidents that led to the initial legislation\u2014regarding painting the sector as the wild west and some of the sort of language that was bandied about. The us-and-them kind of attitude that sometimes goes with these sorts of situations is of concern to some in the sector when the area is struggling. Post-virus, nobody\u2019s had a chance to stop and take their breath; they\u2019re stressed; they\u2019re coming from a difficult sort of period and now having to face what could be very long, intensive negotiations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EI suppose a starting point is that the legislation, at the start, says that an incorporated society has to be formed for both the worker and engager organisation. The engagers are the ones who are, you know, producers who are putting together these films. So they have to sort of form these societies\u2014Screen Production and Development Association might be one of them; I don\u2019t know\u2014who would engage in the negotiations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a very sort of obvious question that needs to be asked: well, who pays for all this? Because this could go on for months. It\u2019s complicated; a very complicated sort of process that could drag on. And the organisations don\u2019t have the people who\u2014well, nobody\u2019s really done this sort of stuff in that industry. So you\u2019re going to have to hire a whole bunch of new people with new skills, engage in long-winded processes. Who\u2019s going to pay for it all? How is that going to work? I\u2019d be interested if the Minister had given much thought to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe second thing is that there\u2019s been a very significant sort of shift, and I\u2019d like the Minister to just set out, if he could, the differences between what the working group came up with\u2014again, not particularly operating in the voluntary sort of circumstances as an industry where Government funding is very significant; Government wants something and is determined to have it. The industry doesn\u2019t, you know, and they have to, you know, kind of do what they have to do. They have no choice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThey recommended a few things in the space. But the bill and the Supplementary Order Paper have moved a long way from there in terms of detail\u2014a long way towards the fair pay language of legislation that\u2019s been developed as well. There seems a lot of some similarities between those two pieces of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019d like the Minister just to, if he could, outline the differences between the original recommendations\u2014arguably made under a bit of pressure\u2014to where we are today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u0022695b7b4fcb27472ebed5094f3896fa6a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022695b7b4fcb27472ebed5094f3896fa6a\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair; I didn\u2019t want to interrupt the Minister if he wished to speak. Look, one part I want to echo is where Paul Goldsmith has gone. It\u2019s, effectively, the question as we look at collective bargaining, and particularly when we think of the loss of the Amazon production around The Lord of the Rings. Does the Minister believe the insertion of this Part 3 on collective bargaining is going to see more or fewer\u2014note the important grammar\u2014productions coming into New Zealand when they are already leaving? I\u2019ll acknowledge that was leaving under the old arrangements, or existing arrangements. Does he think this Part 3 is going to lead to more or fewer productions? I\u2019d love to have that on record. As the Minister will know, of course, the new Lord of the Rings starts tomorrow\u2014the last time it\u2019s been in New Zealand. Get into it now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EClause 26 in Part 3 once again talks about good-faith bargaining. I just want to come back to when we were cut short in Part 2; how does the Minister feel we can have good faith, which implies equal treatment, when his bill is slanting the whole process to one side? So how does he reconcile that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThen to move to clause 31, in particular, but not exclusively\u2014particularly in the context of plain language. The context here is that it prescribes in clause 31 what the collective contract might be like, and I\u2019ve got no particular issues with that in the various\u2014well, actually, it\u2019s clause 31 and following. But I noticed in Part 2, clause 16A, which we were cut short; we Gloss-ed over\u2014which, for those of you who follow television, is a very bad and aged pun. We talked about plain language as required; I\u2019m wondering why in Part 2 there must be plain language and yet here we are in Part 3 talking about the nature of collective contracts, and there\u2019s no prescription for plain language. I\u2019m just wondering why there\u2019s an inconsistency there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ECarrying on what has been a very bad set of puns, Minister, throughout the evening\u2014because I\u2019m sort of wanting to reference the Minority Report and Looper, looking into the future\u2014one of your colleagues, Rachel Boyack, has a bill that\u2019s going to be read tomorrow around plain language. I\u2019m curious to know that if, through the bill, where you\u2019ve mentioned plain language, whether you and your officials have had any thought to what that actually means. And by that I mean what does plain language mean legally right now? Do you have any conception\u2014not an Inception; again, a very bad movie reference. But any conceptions of what this bill, in the future, that one of your party is pushing\u2014what does plain language actually mean? And, again, to draw it back to Part 3, clauses 31 and following, why is it that the collective contracts, their form and content, is not prescribed to be in plain language in the same way that we\u2019ve seen it prescribed in Part 2?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5c5924c86f04fd693fd7aa0e50a4bb2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5c5924c86f04fd693fd7aa0e50a4bb2\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Responding to a couple of the questions that have been asked by members, Mr Goldsmith asked a couple of questions which\u2014generously, I think\u2014are linked to this part. He made the claim at the outset that this is something that has been forced on the sector, which, of course, stood in contrast to the remarks of Mr Woodhouse, who sort of said this is something that\u2019s been put up by a working group and that the Government should have taken more of a direct role in saying what\u2019s what with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThis has very much been a process that has been genuinely collaborative, and I would really encourage the members, if they have a genuine concern in that respect, to go and talk to SPADA\u2014go and talk to the Screen Production and Development Association\u2014who have genuinely engaged in this process, who genuinely went in with an open mind, who will speak about that process, who will speak about some of the concerns and anxieties they had at the outset, and who will speak about the fact that, through a good-faith, engaged, problem-solving process, they came to a point where they strongly support what has been proposed by the working group and is now transferred into legislation by the Government. I say that quite genuinely because that is the process that has played out. It has generally been seen as a model by all of the parties who have been engaged in it. There was no obligation for them to do that, but they did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EIn respect of who pays, again, not necessarily linked to the part, but I can give the member some comfort there. The member, as I know, is a strong supporter of the fair pay agreements legislation that we are putting forward and the framework that surrounds that. One of the decisions that Cabinet did make in terms of the Budget funding\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e076b2384fc46e39af4ed961845230b\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. The Minister is clearly misrepresenting my position on a topic. I\u2019d like him to correct that. I am certainly not a supporter of the fair pay agreements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f44de7d6dd304cd2ab44992345b605e3\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, Mr Goldsmith can take a call if he wishes to disagree with the Minister. It\u2019s clearly a debating point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226994017fa84e4b169dc4bd094eb9b494\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister like to complete his response?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1c5c2919c6e4b278aa0fcb1fa7adaa3\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I would, thank you. As a part of Cabinet\u2019s decision to provide financial support for the bargaining process under fair pay agreements, at the same time as we made those decisions we did also make the decision that parties who engage in collective negotiations under this piece of legislation would also be able to access that financial support of up to $50,000 per bargaining. I note that in the general employment law scene, parties as a matter of course do need to factor in and cover bargaining costs. That is a part of business as usual for most organisations, whether it\u2019s individual negotiations or collective bargaining. So it\u2019s not unusual that organisations will need to consider and fund some costs in a bargaining process, but we will actually provide a bit of additional support in this area, in recognition of the fact that it is a new process, particularly as it gets under way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EIn respect of the question that Mr O\u2019Connor raised about clause 26 and the good-faith provisions, I think the important point to note here is that we\u2019re talking about how good faith must apply during bargaining. In fact, in clause 26(1A) it\u2019s very specifically set out what those provisions are. I just think these are basically things that are very difficult for a reasonable person to argue about as being conditions for reasonable conduct between parties in bargaining. Parties should use their best endeavours to agree a process for conducting the bargaining in an effective and efficient manner. They should agree to meet with each other. They should consider and respond to proposals from one another. They should continue to bargain about matters if they haven\u2019t quite got to a point of agreement and try to find a way of getting through that. They should recognise the role and the authority of another person, not undermine one another.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThese are basic and well-tested good-faith provisions that have been embedded in our employment relations landscape for over 20 years now, and we think it\u2019s just a reasonable thing to be clear that they should be processes which should guide fruitful bargaining processes, and this piece of legislation as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4fcb9124ca8469194c4ac78017b221a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4fcb9124ca8469194c4ac78017b221a\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E Look, I thank the Minister for his actually quite comprehensive response. I suppose the paradox around good faith is not the concept but the fact that he is becoming very prescriptive in legislation. The very nature of good faith is that it is open.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fb2bda9a1b5439da8d62d4bbba95769\u0022\u003EMarja Lubeck\u003C/span\u003E: He has to because some people don\u2019t know what good faith means, like yourself; it is not equal treatment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc47db79aa654f3790f3c589d5c9c21d\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Right. That\u2019s brilliant. So we once again have the great sage of Marja Lubeck deciding what is and isn\u2019t out of good faith, which is the exact point that good faith is about a discussion, not a heckling. And so, drawing it back to Part 3 again, I think, Minister, we all agree with the nature of good faith; it\u2019s just does he understand the paradox that to prescribe what is and is not in good faith is, in fact, counter-productive?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThe second is to come back to the earlier question: does he believe, as he\u2019s just answered\u2014and, again, thank you for that\u2014all the various conditions and processes and costs are going to lead to more or fewer productions in New Zealand? I think that\u2019s a fundamental question, because he\u2019s right to mention the Screen Production and Development Association and others, but I know a number of people\u2014and I keep bringing up the Amazon production of The Lord of the Rings, but, actually, they have left the country; they left the country. They are unlikely, I\u2019d suggest, to come back. And the worry that I genuinely have is that legislation like this is going to make life even harder.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESo we can opine, like Marja Lubeck here, wonderful great diatribes, but, actually, we\u2019re going to have fewer people working in the industry because of this legislation\u2014we\u2019re going to have fewer people. So two ultimate questions: how does he reconcile good faith, the concept, with adding quite a prescriptive formula through his legislation; and, secondly\u2014and to repeat again\u2014does he believe, because of this Part 3 in particular, we are going to see more or fewer productions in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u0022217d4f4eba2e4c98ae215e291877be05\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022217d4f4eba2e4c98ae215e291877be05\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Briefly, in answer to the two questions\u2014firstly, as I said, good faith is a very, very established framework for productive collective bargaining. The argument that the member makes that somehow it\u2019s overly prescriptive or burdensome doesn\u2019t hold any water. It was retained by the previous National Government for its entire nine years as one of the building blocks of the collective bargaining framework under the Employment Relations Act. The code of good faith, which was promulgated by Margaret Wilson in the early 2000s, was kept in place by that previous National Government to provide guidance for people engaging in bargaining processes for that entire period. I don\u2019t see it as particularly burdensome in any particular way. Actually, in amongst the wide range of debates with employers and unions about the nature of our employment relations framework, that is not a point that I can say has ever particularly been raised with me in my time as a Minister or someone who has been engaged in this area. If anything, I think it provides some certainty and some structure to the way that bargaining will be conducted to ensure that it\u2019s productive and actually results in outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003ESecondly, in respect of any expectation that I might have about there being fewer or more productions as a result of there being collective bargaining provisions: I don\u2019t have any particular reason to think that it will be here nor there in that respect. The main example that the member referred to, of course, was Amazon shifting production elsewhere, which was driven by other factors\u2014as I understand it, primarily by tax treatment and subsidies that are often probably, actually, amongst the most significant drivers of where productions settle internationally. But I really just don\u2019t accept the fundamental premise that basic labour rights should be on the table in this area. If you go down that rabbit hole, well, maybe we should remove the minimum wage, maybe we should remove basic provisions to sick leave and ACC and others things that are a bedrock of decent terms and conditions because international businesses would prefer that we lowered their cost base. We just don\u2019t think that is a way that we should conduct ourselves. We think that we should have basic decent terms and conditions for people who do work in New Zealand, and then aim to be competitive in other ways other than a race to the bottom.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002214d021973d104070bb013ea0fdec50f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002214d021973d104070bb013ea0fdec50f8\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. You can sense the anticipation on this side, both between myself and the Hon Paul Goldsmith, to stand up and speak. But I want to refer to clause 32A of Part 3\u2014there\u2019s a little segue\u2014in regards to bargaining fees. It\u2019s interesting\u2014I\u2019m not referring to the recent movie release called Bargaining, which is actually a Korean film, an action film called Bargaining; it\u2019s about a kidnapping, so a bit more dangerous than what we\u2019re talking about tonight, Minister. But a little segue, because one of the things we\u2019re trying to do is to try and make this relevant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe questions that I have in regards to clause 32A, in particular\u2014and I\u2019ll get into it, Subparts 2 and 3\u2014is getting the Minister\u2019s perspective in terms of how he sees this aspect will work in practice. My point, more detailed around the border concept, around the bargaining fees clause here, is in regards to enterprise-level collective contracts, which is obviously throughout this section but highlighted here in particular at Subpart 3, and really I\u2019m keen to get an understanding in terms of the, I guess, key contrasts between how the bargaining fee arrangement will differ between occupational-level collective contract and enterprise-level collective contract. For those that aren\u2019t over the detail in regards to that element, I think that would be quite helpful because I think there is some complexity. With the enterprise-level collectives, I guess it goes back to the point that Simon O\u2019Connor was referring to, in terms of some of these, you know, big production companies or production companies working with employee collective groups\u2014just how that will work, and, I guess, an expectation also, or some perspective from the Minister around the expectation around what those bargaining fees and the terms could look like. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u002217e185b2ba3142fd82445516cd08a56a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002217e185b2ba3142fd82445516cd08a56a\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to dig into clause 37, which is around the initiating of bargaining. And I\u2019m intrigued on this one, when we\u2019re talking about an occupational-level collective contract. So this is kind of the fair pay agreements of the screen industry, which is a significant move away from the practice of the country for the last 30 years, which has been enterprise-level based. This legislation pre-empts the fair pay agreement legislation looking at occupational-level collective contracts, and I\u2019m mystified as to why the Minister thinks that\u2019s a great idea, but he might be able to come up with some reasons why.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EBut the issue is, to initiate it, he\u2019s saying that if the union is organised\u2014you know, a worker organisation is initiating this occupational-level collective contract, it needs to go to the members and get a majority of its members supporting the initiation of these contracts, which is quite different to the fair pay agreement where you only have to have a 10 percent of the sector as a whole, or a thousand members, or, even better than that, some sort of vague idea that it\u2019s a good thing or required. I can\u2019t remember the exact phrase. I\u2019m pleased that he\u2019s at least expecting half the union members to sign up to the initiation. But I suppose my worry is what happens if you\u2019ve got an occupation\u2014I don\u2019t know what it might be. It might be, I don\u2019t know, if you divide it up between\u2014what is it? What\u2019s the term used for people who are sort of just in the background of a film, bit-part players or\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fc5e894773942c68f6264c04295c3e8\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Extras.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d31c357177de4af592607f080fd8a6c9\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Extras. Extras, for example. Extras. And\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c536996ecce54124b4f2d93d4de945c1\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: A bit like the Labour backbench. They\u2019re sort of bit-part players; they have no role. They\u2019re all going to lose their seats.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022928ff7015aa543a0865dc67c81fcc5f2\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: You shouldn\u2019t be unkind to Marja Lubeck like that\u2014I\u2019ll defend it. So, we\u2019re talking about extras\u2014we\u2019re talking about extras. If there was an extras union, and there might be over the course of the year, I don\u2019t know, a thousand extras, there might be 5,000 extras if there\u2019s a big film going on which included a lot of extras\u2014a lot of orcs, for example, or something like that\u2014and the union only had a hundred members out of the 5,000 because it wasn\u2019t much chop, you\u2019re saying that it might only be 50 people, half of the hundred members of the union required to initiate collective agreement for the whole occupational level.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo I just want to sort of clarify how all that works. If one is negotiated, does that automatically apply to the other thousands who might have had nothing to do with it, didn\u2019t want it, didn\u2019t want to be involved in it in any way, shape, or form, but were sort of, effectively, dragooned into the arrangements, whatever they may be. And one of the arrangements might be that, I don\u2019t know, as an extra you need to have half hour breaks at this time, or whatever; it might be all sorts of rules and regulations. So I\u2019d be keen for the Minister just to clarify: (a) why the difference with the fair pay agreement? And what rules are there in place to ensure that, actually, if you\u2019re dealing with an occupation, that there is a majority of people in the occupation that actually want to do this, rather than just who might join up with one particular union? Then, thirdly, why does this apply to everybody? Is that sort of a form of compulsory union or something like that? If you could give some clarification on those issues, I\u2019d be grateful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u0022b5d583b69fbe401fa5749cda1ec69c08\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b5d583b69fbe401fa5749cda1ec69c08\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E A couple of questions which have come up there: one around bargaining fees from Mr Watts, and then some questions around initiation from Mr Goldsmith. In respect of bargaining fees, these only apply to enterprise-level bargaining, and they only apply where a non-member of the union or guild concerned chooses to sign up to the enterprise-level bargaining. So, effectively, it\u2019s about recognising that that person, if they choose to do so, will be receiving the benefits of that collective contract bargaining process, and it\u2019s reasonable to ask them to make a contribution towards the costs of that, but others do not have to if they do not wish to sign up there. The fee is struck, as I understand it, at the lowest level of what the applicable union fee or guild fee would be in that particular case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EIn respect of the bargaining initiation process for occupational-level contracts that Mr Goldsmith was asking about, once the initiating body\u2014the worker body\u2014has put forward an initiation request to the authority, the authority will then test support with that occupational grouping. So it will be run by the authority across the whole grouping\u2014not just the union or guild members, but across that whole grouping of workers\u2014and they will have to test that there is majority support before that proposal proceeds. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8606431cb4b44d38db1c179c105bb7b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8606431cb4b44d38db1c179c105bb7b\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Chief Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00227e6a814b34394d929cd49a26f6724449\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e6a814b34394d929cd49a26f6724449\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a47d99a33ef4a48b4d681da7f132894\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, come on, I\u2014[Chair confers with the Clerk]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccf3a345436548ecac35fb93e3a1d4db\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: I call on the Hon Paul Goldsmith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022ecfbe16fba7545deabfa39edbb294b82\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ecfbe16fba7545deabfa39edbb294b82\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister Wood didn\u2019t answer all my questions, obviously\u2014but if he chooses not to, he doesn\u2019t have to, I suppose. But it was a question around the numbers and the impact that these occupation-level collective contracts have on everybody in the industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EI suppose, if, again, we\u2019re thinking of extras as an example, presumably there might be a very big difference between a production that had thousands of extras\u2014in a big film or a set of trilogies, and so forth, if you think of the hobbits and all that sort of stuff\u2014and a very small production, which may have just two or three for a very short period of time while something is being produced. I\u2019d be keen for the Minister to explain how life is going to be improved by fitting those two different situations into one box when it comes to pay and conditions. What may suit or may be affordable, even, for a larger production with large amounts of money\u2014well organised, huge numbers of people, huge flexibility with those numbers of people\u2014may not be appropriate for a small operation with a very small group involved. It may make life difficult. So I\u2019m just curious as to why he thinks that in an industry that requires, many times, a great deal of flexibility and in a huge variety of situations, a kind of one-size-fits-all occupation-level approach is wise? Will it lead to better outcomes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThen, when it comes to the question of\u2014I\u2019ll presume the outcome that the Minister is after is higher wages and additional benefits, whether it\u2019s more breaks or better arrangements in some place, and that, ultimately, leads to higher costs. Does he think that the costs are irrelevant when it comes to deciding whether to do a particular production here in New Zealand or not? He seems to be implying that the only thing that really matters is the subsidy regime, or the tax treatment of it. But I suppose I\u2019d just like to know whether he\u2019s got any evidence to support that, or whether the cost structure of the whole process and the flexibility within arrangements will make a difference. He\u2019ll probably say, \u201COh, well, everybody else does it.\u201D I suppose the point is, in a global world, when you\u2019re trying to attract things into a very remote location in New Zealand, does a little bit of extra flexibility make people more likely to come here? That\u2019s not an unreasonable proposition, so I\u2019d be interested in his thoughts around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe other thing that he didn\u2019t really respond to is: why the different approach taken to the approach taken in the fair pay agreement around initiating occupation-level contracts? Is this a hangover from the desires of the working group? I\u2019m not sure what the working group had to say on the initiation process, but it would be interesting to know whether he has on this occasion listened to some degree to that group, or not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe other aspect that I was trying to figure out was, again, if the union representation in a particular occupation group was very low, does that just draw everybody else in, regardless of whether they want to be or not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u002210f980e9fa464250ac1a8b8d5f5664c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210f980e9fa464250ac1a8b8d5f5664c8\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E The questions around the initiation threshold\u2014yes, that is a part of the recommendations that we received from the working group in terms of what they believe would be an appropriate and workable structure. We listened to them very carefully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EIn answer to Mr Goldsmith\u2019s question that sort of went to the broader issue of flexibility, I think the answer to that lies in the graduated structure. So for a worker, for example\u2014taking Mr Goldsmith\u2019s example\u2014an extra who might, as a contractor, move from production to production, employer to employer, the occupation-level bargaining will ensure that that worker has the certainty of there being a basic level of fair negotiated terms and conditions that apply across that occupation wherever he or she moves. But over the course of a year or two years, that worker might move between different productions and different employers, and, to Mr Goldsmith\u2019s point, yes, one of them might be large and have more means, and one of them might be small and have lesser means. And that\u2019s where the enterprise-level bargaining, should it occur, in the individual-level contracts will allow differentiation which is fit for purpose for that organisation and its ability to engage. So I think the graduated nature there is the answer to his question. Whether he agrees with it or not, that is the way the system is set up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EIn terms of his final question, \u201CDoes cost structure matter?\u201D, well, of course it matters in any industry, in terms of being viable. As I\u2019ve outlined, there\u2019s no particular reason to think that giving people the basic, fundamental human right of being able to collectively bargain should be a particular prohibition in that area. I do note there are other sectors of the New Zealand economy that attract offshore capital and ownership in which collective bargaining is very normal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00229d0f86a97bb24f2f9873b66435051d7a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d0f86a97bb24f2f9873b66435051d7a\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I must say this committee stage does remind me of the 2015 movie Everest, you know, as a tough struggle; hopefully, unlike that movie, which had a bit of a sad ending\u2014this is probably where this bill is going to end up as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EBut, anyway, let\u2019s get to clause 33\u2014a new clause that we haven\u2019t talked about tonight. I\u2019m particularly interested in clause 33(4)\u2014again, a new area that we haven\u2019t touched on, but let\u2019s get into it because it\u2019s one that raises a few, I think, important points that I\u2019m keen for the Minister to provide some context on. So what I\u2019m referring to here is around the exemptions for terms of occupational-level collective contracts, and, in particular, the subclause (4), which refers to \u201Csignificant disruption\u201D\u2014[Interruption] what\u2019s that, Mr Goldsmith?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022879e29c937314cb2a87593f1c7ec7310\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217c833ac7ca74a24a81d93e0f096f505\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh no, just want to give me some tips. The \u201Csignificant disruption to a production\u201D. That\u2019s reasonable. We all expect that there may be cases where you\u2019re going to face a significant disruption and aspects like that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EBut clause 33(4)(b) is the one that captured my eye, and that is because it refers to \u201Cthe availability of essential personnel\u201D in particular. Obviously, we\u2019re acutely aware around the workforce shortages and crises that exist at the moment across multiple sectors. I\u2019m in no doubt that the film and production sector are, no doubt, probably facing similar challenges around the availability of essential personnel, which this clause is referring to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m interested, from the Minister, in terms of how he sees this specific clause working in practice. The definition of \u201Csignificant disruption\u201D\u2014I mean, there can\u2019t be too many people with skill sets in this space in New Zealand, with respect, and, no doubt, quite a few of them have probably jumped on the plane and headed to other places to sell their wares in terms of their experience; hopefully not, but that\u2019s probably the reality. So how will that work in practice? I guess, the practical reality of this working in the context of right now is we do have an acute workforce shortage; the likelihood is that that\u2019s going to be around into the future. So, you know, is the reality that is defined as \u201Csignificant\u201D actually going to be more mainstream in terms of the triggering of this clause, in particular?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo those are the three questions that I have in regards, again, to clause 33(4)(b). Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00220988032a60c34df48671e7e5390272e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220988032a60c34df48671e7e5390272e3\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I suppose I have just a few more questions around the whole engager representative that, as far as I\u2019m aware, there\u2019s only sort of one floating around at the moment, and that\u2019s the Screen Production and Development Association. There may be some others that come along. Who knows? But they haven\u2019t involved themselves in these sorts of negotiations at all. So I suppose I\u2019m just trying to think how the Minister thinks this is going to work if there were five different occupational negotiations started\u2014one for the extras, one\u2019s for the camera people, another one for the writers, another one for the main actors, and another one\u2019s for the stunt people; I mean, you could have half a dozen under way, you could have a whole lot of enterprise-based ones as well\u2014all requiring a completely new skill set for the industry to do this sort of stuff, and an enormous amount of work and cost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EI\u2019m just struggling as to why the Minister thinks this is a great idea and a useful thing to do at the moment, at a time when the industry is just, again, blinking its eyes just coming out of the COVID crisis, struggling with shortages of workers, struggling to get access to people to do the basic job that they want to get done, wondering what\u2019s going to happen when Willie Jackson fiddles around with the TVNZ - Radio New Zealand merger, and New Zealand On Air and what that all means, trying to figure out a whole bunch of other stuff, and somehow it\u2019s got to deal with what could be multiple occupational proposals put forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EAs we\u2019ll go through all the other parts\u2014and I\u2019m sure the poor people who are tuning into this will be struggling to stay awake, and it just goes on, page after page after page of rules and regulation and dispute processes and challenges and this, that, and the other thing; page after page after page, adding time and cost and frustration, and gunging up the system and distracting people in the sector away from getting on with the job at hand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EBut, in particular, given the current sort of smallness of the industry bodies and how they operate, how on earth does the Minister think that they\u2019re going to be able to cope if there is half a dozen of these things initiated pretty quickly? Does he think his $50,000 is going to sort of cover the cost in any way, shape, or thing, when the authority starts its long process? And then, once it gets to the authority\u2014this is the Employment Relations Authority\u2014of course, as we know, I think the average waiting time is about a year and a half for them to get round to dealing with a personal grievance. I don\u2019t know how it\u2019s going to get round to dealing with these things in a timely fashion. Does he have any indication from them that they are going to get to these things within a year or two? He\u2019ll probably have 30-day turn-around somewhere on page 500 of this bill. But will they be like the many city councils around the country that have perfected the art of just asking for a little bit more information on day 29, and then starting another 30 days and then they\u2019ve perfected the art of extracting these things or coming up with reasons why they don\u2019t have to meet the deadline? So I\u2019d be interested to know how he thinks it\u2019s going to work in terms of that, which will, again, drag things out and make it even more difficult.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo the broad sort of picture I\u2019m developing here, and one which I think will be of concern to many in the sector, though they won\u2019t mention it, presumably, because they are conscious of the fact that so much of their existence depends on the good will of the Government of the day, and this Government has shown itself to be pretty rough with people who disagree with it, and so that\u2019s always in the back of the mind of everybody\u2014but how are they going to actually do this and how is it going to actually help the sector right at this time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EI did ask him a little bit earlier, and he didn\u2019t answer, whether or not he\u2019d received any correspondence or a letter from people in the sector, pleading for a bit more time, and asking him not to do this right now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u00222c2a95e441fd44379aba2c66e5b4a823\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c2a95e441fd44379aba2c66e5b4a823\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll briefly answer a couple of the questions that were asked. Mr Watts asked about clause 33(4) in the version of the bill reported back by the select committee\u2014just for ease of reference for members, that\u2019s now clause 49C under Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 234, which I have tabled. It\u2019s probably useful to understand the particular examples that were in the select committee report back. At clause 39C\u2014sorry, I\u2019m getting my numbers confused myself. At clause 33(4), the particular examples that are listed there under subparagraphs (i) and (ii) have actually been removed from the final version of the bill under the SOP, just to create greater clarity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EEffectively, the purpose of this provision is to allow under exceptional circumstances for there to be some limited exemption from provisions of occupational contracts, except for provisions which relate to pay. So that\u2019s about building in a little bit of flexibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EI think Mr Goldsmith\u2019s arguments are largely about a fundamental objection to the bill, rather than particular provisions here\u2014a fundamental objection to there being collective bargaining that occurs and an assumption that is always going to result in burdensome cost and complication. I just repeat my comment before that many other sectors are able to manage that, and this process has been arrived at through a joint good-faith process. I think that people in the sector would reject his assertion that hard-working, innovative producers and companies \u201Crely on the goodwill of the Government\u201D. It\u2019s a bit like Mr Luxon\u2019s comment that businesses in New Zealand are soft, somehow. These are serious, innovative, creative, successful businesses and organisations who have come together, sat down with unions and guilds, and agreed on a positive and productive way forward in this area, and a fundamental part of that is the ability to access collective bargaining, as most other workers in New Zealand can. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd4d7df20db84eb3944bbf918dd7075d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd4d7df20db84eb3944bbf918dd7075d\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Chief Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0c221d3b41749e3baf328cc40eeb49f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0c221d3b41749e3baf328cc40eeb49f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: I will come back to this side of the Chamber, but I will allow a call for Hon Michael Woodhouse, who has not yet had a call on this part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u00222233fdc48b2f435cacdb75a28e638c45\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222233fdc48b2f435cacdb75a28e638c45\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. My question is in relation to clause 27, a fascinating clause, which says, \u201CThe parties bargaining for a collective contract must conclude a collective contract.\u201D Now, one would normally expect that to be the desired outcome. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ESo my question is, what does this mean in relation to two parties who don\u2019t previously have a relationship, and could the conclusion of the collective contract bargaining be such that it\u2019s concluded by both parties walking away, without an agreement being reached?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EAnd the reason why this is important is because this is not like an employment relationship where the union\u2014or the bargaining agent\u2014and its members already have an employment relationship with the employer. It may be that a production company comes along to an organisation representing a group of\u2014what used to be independent contractors, but we\u2019ll call them something else for the purposes of this\u2014and saying, \u201CWe\u2019d like to engage your actors, lighting staff, grips, whatever\u201D, and they get around the table and they commence bargaining and they\u2019re not able to reach an agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EMy question about clause 27 is, does conclusion involve walking away without an agreement being reached? Because if you take The Hobbit example from 2009, and let\u2019s, sort of, replay that through this process: there wasn\u2019t already a relationship, in respect of that production, with these two groups of people. So they get around the table, and my question is, what then happens if they cannot agree? The bill, at clause 27, basically says they \u201Cmust conclude a collective contract.\u201D I want to know whether that was the intention, or does conclusion include the possibility of walking away?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u0022086b15e6b90148bb80c34b3bb14fe778\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022086b15e6b90148bb80c34b3bb14fe778\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E It is worth noting that there continue to be relationships between unions, guilds, and employers in the sector, and there have been right across the last few years; albeit, that there has been in a change in some of the formal relationships because of the previous piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThe answer, in respect of clause 27, is that parties can, even if they face difficulties in that bargaining, then access the dispute resolution provisions that are contained within this piece of legislation to try and meet the objective of concluding a collective contract.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u002299c8596ff84a43f8a0f7c3907e8e4850\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299c8596ff84a43f8a0f7c3907e8e4850\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Well, that\u2019s a fascinating answer, because I think I interpret that to be: an agreement must be reached. And the Minister\u2019s right. There are a number of existing and ongoing relationships between production companies and actors and production staff, but there will also be new ones and there will also be a series\u2014this is unlike a continuous employment relationship where there are actually a series of discrete contracts, job and finish arrangements. That\u2019s the nature of independent contracting. I wonder if the Minister\u2014because it goes back to the question that Simon O\u2019Connor asked at the start of Part 3 about whether there would be more or fewer engagements when this bill is passed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EIt would seem to me that because of clause 27, the answer is going to be emphatically fewer, because no production company would come into New Zealand with a big budget and a chequebook to write for these contractors if before they even start the conversation about \u201CAre we going to engage with each other?\u201D, they\u2019re under a legal obligation to conclude that bargaining with a contract. They\u2019re just not going to take that risk. And, actually, they\u2019re over a barrel before the negotiations even start. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ESo you know what they\u2019re going to do, Minister? They\u2019re going to go to Poland and Czechoslovakia and India and Australia and the United Kingdom with very mature\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbe0c702abfb45e6a57f9ac914a60039\u0022\u003EMelissa Lee\u003C/span\u003E: Korea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af65481ddece4be59316bad06f8c2549\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: And Korea\u2014great movies coming out of Korea. But what they won\u2019t have in those countries is the obligation to conclude a collective contract before they even get going. The answer to Simon O\u2019Connor\u2019s question must be: fewer. And New Zealand will be the worse for that and so, incidentally, will be the very people the Minister is trying to protect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022df96138e5288484382e17f3cd0c7e915\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df96138e5288484382e17f3cd0c7e915\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Chief Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ddd929f7ede940c892da67dcbb707704\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0b0a0dc231a44eb867bb04f271a47f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0b0a0dc231a44eb867bb04f271a47f9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 3 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 234 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228c3da0123ad1487fa274871c77eb9139\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225db2cd2499f54d9089d23353317d5840\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 3 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b83eed6ae6564486ad5517beba612791\u0022\u003EPart 4  Dispute resolution, challenges, reviews, penalties, and offences\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022207e826b033b4a7ba972a739ca654054\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022207e826b033b4a7ba972a739ca654054\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 4. This is the debate on clauses 57 to 65 and Schedules 4, \u201CDispute resolution, challenges, reviews, penalties, and offences\u201D. The question is that Part 4 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u00221111938b94794abda651682d82eee14f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221111938b94794abda651682d82eee14f\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Part 4 of the bill is a relatively discreet function, and, really, it does what it says on the tin: it focuses on dispute resolution, challenges, reviews, penalties, and offences. So we\u2019re moving away from the court processes of bargaining now, to what happens if parties need support in terms of their employment relationships.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003ETwo changes to draw the committee\u2019s attention to: one which is proposed by the select committee in its report back is a change to ensure that there is no longer a requirement that the parties have acted in good faith before they\u2019re able to receive facilitation. That was, effectively, about not having a perverse outcome, whereby an act of bad faith by one or the other parties could prevent staircasing towards that form of dispute resolution. And, secondly, in the Supplementary Order Paper, there is a clarification that, when an agreement is fixed by the authority, it is treated as signed and ratified for the purposes of the bill so that there can be no doubt about that matter. Once again, I\u2019m happy to answer any question relating to this part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u002275c4ea4263bb469e8acc659825717c6c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275c4ea4263bb469e8acc659825717c6c\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E Two initial points: this is not a dispute\u2014we\u2019re going to go after nomenclature\u2014and, secondly, I don\u2019t think the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Papers (SOPs) are minor. Look, they\u2019re not substantial\u2014making sure I\u2019m on the right SOP. There\u2019s quite a number of changes in Part 4. I don\u2019t think they\u2019re to be disputed, but, yes, it\u2019s some substantial changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ELook, it\u2019s probably quite easy, again, for the legal beagles to reply to, but it\u2019s twofold. Firstly, in clause 56, we\u2019re now talking about \u201Cpersons\u201D. Earlier on in the legislation, we\u2019ve been talking about \u201Cindividuals\u201D and, very kindly, the Minister or his officials noted to me about individuals in earlier parts actually being \u201Cnatural persons\u201D\u2014always useful to know\u2014but now we\u2019re talking about \u201Cpersons\u201D in clause 56. I just want to be really, really clear, and I can see two doctoral legal beagles over there on the other side just getting fired up with excitement between\u2014exactly, I can even see thumbs up between \u201Cpersons\u201D and \u201Cindividuals\u201D and \u201Cnatural persons\u201D. I just want to get absolute clarity on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThen, to not dispute, let\u2019s move on to clause 57, where we are referencing the \u201Cchief executive\u201D, which is jolly decent. But the chief executive is there. I\u2019m assuming the chief executive is in reference to the Employment Relations Authority, but why I raise it, Minister, is that\u2014first and foremost\u2014it is not abundantly clear, particularly when one jumps back into the interpretation. It is quite important that we get this very clear, because the chief executive, according to the interpretation, means the \u201Cchief executive of the department\u201D. Then we carry on and find that, actually, the Minister\u2019s SOP has removed the definition of \u201Cdepartment\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019m not a legal eagle\u2014I\u2019m a philosopher, and, actually, a politician, which is possibly a weird mix\u2014but, long and short, who is the chief executive? And has the Minister crossed every \u201Ct\u201D and dotted every \u201Ci\u201D\u2014what\u2019s known as a \u201Ctittle\u201D, just for those people who are into linguistic and English interest. So I am being a bit flippant, but, actually, it\u2019s a serious point: I just want to know, through officials, that we\u2019ve got this absolutely right. First and foremost, with clause 56, is a \u201Cperson\u201D also an \u201Cindividual\u201D? And ipso facto is the \u201Cindividual\u201D a \u201Cnatural person\u201D? And then, with clause 57, is it absolutely clear through the way that this has been structured\u2014or do we need to make a quick fix?\u2014that the chief executive is that of the authority, at which point we need a very quick change to clause 10 of Interpretations to say \u201C \u2018chief executive\u2019 means the \u2018chief executive of the authority\u2019 \u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u00228d12cd072da5429ebfb644d06764d5ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d12cd072da5429ebfb644d06764d5ff\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E I think I can assist with these two matters. In respect of clause 56, \u201Cpersons\u201D includes individuals and groups who are covered by the legislation, including bargaining parties. In respect of clause 57, \u201Cchief executive\u201D refers to the chief executive of the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE). It\u2019s MBIE who is responsible for the provision of mediation services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u00223e3fa68f9cea4891917ea986e0ab8fb0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e3fa68f9cea4891917ea986e0ab8fb0\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Simon Watts was probably a better choice but at least it\u2019s a Simon! Look, it\u2019s just to be absolutely clear, Minister, is that now clear in the bill? I may have missed something but I don\u2019t think to this point\u2014as I\u2019ve read it and I\u2019ll be honest, I\u2019m not going to flick through all 82 pages. But is it clear in the legislation that \u201Cchief executive\u201D means the chief executive of the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE), because that\u2019s no longer there. Particularly if I have seen it correctly in your Supplementary Order Paper 234, departments being struck out. So is he able, or his officials, to point us as a committee of the whole House to be clear? Because I\u2019m very, very happy\u2014I want to be abundantly clear\u2014very happy that it should be MBIE, but just want to make sure that we\u2019ve got that correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022901e8e9beb814b44844ec9c798039419\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022901e8e9beb814b44844ec9c798039419\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. As we work our way through this bill, I want to move\u2014and it\u2019s actually related to a question that I asked earlier in regards to penalties, and the Minister acknowledged that section 4 would be the point in which the bill would cover this detail. So I\u2019ve been waiting here in anticipation for the moment to be able to get into the questions around penalties and get a little bit of clarity on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo, specifically, what we we\u2019re looking at is under Part 4, clause 63(3)(a) and (b). We\u2019ve got two penalties there: one in regards to the individual and the other in regards to a body corporate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EOne, looking for a little bit of guidance from the Minister in terms of the setting of those penalties, what was the consideration and practice around how he came up with the $10,000 and subsequently $20,000? Is that deemed reasonable in the context of what\u2019s going on here? Is there precedent in terms of where that has been baselined?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn regards to 63(3)(b), just clarifying there in terms of the use of \u201Cbody corporate\u201D\u2014just making sure, seeking clarification, that that is the right legal construct that we want to be referring to in regards to that? Because it\u2019s reasonably specific and I\u2019m just wanting to get some clarity around why we\u2019ve specifically referred to \u201Cbody corporate\u201D there versus other legal structures that may be deemed more appropriate or broader than that term. So 63(3)(a) and (b).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee15b34879c74a2bb04c699eb6cce3b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee15b34879c74a2bb04c699eb6cce3b9\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just\u2014on Simon O\u2019Connor\u2019s behalf, actually\u2014want to thank the Minister for his answer that the chief executive of the department is the chief executive of the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE). That\u2019s great; we get that\u2014that\u2019s certainly the Minister\u2019s intent. The question is where that is in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThe reason Mr O\u2019Connor asked that is because in Government Supplementary Order Paper 234, on page 11, the definition of \u201Cdepartment\u201D has been removed. So if you go to the original bill as brought back by the committee, it says the chief executive is \u201Cthe chief executive of the department.\u201D And in the definition of \u201Cdepartment\u201D, it means \u201Cthe department of State that, with the authority of the Prime Minister, is responsible for the administration of this Act.\u201D That\u2019s great, but that definition got taken out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ESo where in the bill do the breadcrumbs lead back to MBIE? That\u2019s all we need to work on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ccdc694f53d54800b4e2ea87f9980046\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ccdc694f53d54800b4e2ea87f9980046\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Happy to answer a couple of those remaining questions that are there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EIn respect to the question asked by Mr O\u2019Connor and then followed up on by Mr Woodhouse, what\u2019s happened here is that the Legislation Act now ensures that when we refer to a \u201Cdepartment\u201D within a piece of legislation, that automatically means the department who is responsible for the administration of the bill. So the department responsible of the administration of this bill is the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE). So whenever \u201Cdepartment\u201D is referred to within this piece of legislation, it refers to MBIE on those grounds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EIn respect of Mr Watts\u2019 questions about the level of the penalties in 63(3), they pretty much come across from the Employment Relations Authority penalty regimes for similar breaches. So we\u2019ve tried to keep a level of consistency across the employment relations framework there, and the use of the word \u201Cbody corporate\u201D is just to ensure that we are capturing organisations\u2014that the $10,000 and $20,000 split is effectively a split between individuals and organisations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u0022c599ee6357c24a96a70e96d6cac5ce85\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c599ee6357c24a96a70e96d6cac5ce85\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E Can I thank the Minister, particularly in relation to the whole \u201Cwho\u2019s responsible?\u201D I guess the question is, how do we know, and perhaps it\u2019s a privilege\u2014to use a Green Party word; perhaps we\u2019re privileged to know, on this side of the House\u2014but how does the ordinary New Zealander know which department is responsible? And, please, Minister, I\u2019m not trying to belabour this. I think, quite genuinely, if someone wants to understand and know, where are they to be directed? Is there something explicit on the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment website? Where do we find this? So I just welcome a little bit of clarification if you could.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u0022499b80be538d4f868d2843461ada6963\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022499b80be538d4f868d2843461ada6963\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E When the legislation is published on the legislation website, the Parliamentary Counsel Office will identify the responsible department.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00227be3b8522b42463c8b82f600bc8a8289\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227be3b8522b42463c8b82f600bc8a8289\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E I wasn\u2019t going to take a call on this bill, but I am intrigued by this little exchange towards the latter stages. I mean, I\u2019ve got to say, it\u2019s a fairly unintended consequence, I would have thought, of the Legislation Act, which\u2014I think I\u2019m right in saying that I sat on the Regulations Review Committee to oversee the passage, or at least some of the passage of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3f6300ce3e94d17a368970dd7d03c90\u0022\u003ESimon O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Who\u2019s the chair of that committee? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3fcd3325ae04918bc260b68fb0bc4b3\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: The chair is Chris Penk. He may wish to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b1be29c43d242199c4e1d8f86d2b83f\u0022\u003EChris Penk\u003C/span\u003E: I think it was me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e7ec531c736466bbeeaf96db58a9a8f\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, it was you\u2014I\u2019ll blame you for it\u2014but he may wish to proffer a view. But it\u2019s a genuine point, which is: is it now the position that the administering department can be updated by the machinery of government, and that, essentially, just has the effect of updating the Act? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo the Act says it\u2019s the chief executive and it\u2019s left open as to who the chief executive is, and then the administering department changes from\u2014I don\u2019t know. In this case, it\u2019s the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE), but, for argument\u2019s sake, it could be the Department of Internal Affairs (DIA), which seems to end up with the ephemera and pot-pourri of other random stuff that departments don\u2019t want. I\u2019m not having a go at DIA\u2014they do a good job\u2014but it\u2019s sort of a catch-all department. So let\u2019s say, for argument\u2019s sake, that DIA want to be that administering department. The effect of that decision being made is that the Act just sort of auto-updates to the chief executive of the DIA being the chief executive, and I\u2019m not sure that\u2019s a wholly satisfactory outcome of the Legislation Act. I mean, the first point is that Parliament is not actually authorising that change. It\u2019s just being done by ministerial or at least administrative fiat, so there\u2019s been a transfer of power away from the legislature. So that\u2019s the first point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe second point is\u2014and I accept it\u2019s not the world\u2019s most significant point, but it is an important point, which is a rule of law point, which is that people should have the ability to quickly work out who the right chief executive is that they\u2019re talking about, and to read a piece of legislation and understand it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThere\u2019ll be quite a few people, I reckon, who would read it and go, \u201COh yeah, the chief executive.\u201D, and the \u201Cchief executive\u201D of so and so is littered throughout the statute book now, and they\u2019ll read it and go, \u201Cthe chief executive of MBIE\u201D, \u201Cthe chief executive of DIA\u201D, \u201Cthe chief executive of\u201D\u2014whatever, and they\u2019ll say, \u201COK, that\u2019s fair enough. That\u2019s all good. I understand. That\u2019s fine.\u201D Well, now you have to know to read the legislation and go, \u201COh yeah, the chief executive. Ah, right\u2014that\u2019s right. Parliament, in its infinite wisdom three years ago, decided that the way to work out who the chief executive is that you have to go down to the very bottom of the Act and work out who the responsible agency is, and\u2014oh, that\u2019s right. That\u2019s who it is.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI mean, I probably knew three years ago, but I\u2019d forgotten that we\u2019d authorised that. So I\u2019d be willing to put this to the committee: very few MPs in Parliament know that that\u2019s the case, so how many slightly more laypeople out there in the public domain know that that\u2019s the case. I would hazard a guess that it\u2019s very few. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo, look, is it the world\u2019s biggest issue? No. Is it an important one? Yes. I think there are some rule of law concerns around that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EAnyway, I wasn\u2019t planning on taking a call, but I feel better having got it off my chest. My colleague Chris Penk, who actually knows far more about this than I do, may wish to\u2014oh, he\u2019s shaking his head. No. OK\u2014anyway. So the Minister may want to proffer a comment, but thank you, Madam Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u0022faf06c4bdcef423c9a81962304f030be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022faf06c4bdcef423c9a81962304f030be\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Look, briefly, I do agree with my colleague across the Chamber that it is an interesting point, but it is an interesting point in the context of the Legislation Act, rather than this one. I\u2019ve checked it. \u201CDepartment\u201D is defined, and all the legislation in section 13 of the Legislation Act is the agency responsible for administering the Act. So those indeed are the provisions of the Legislation Act. That is what is being applied here. It is, I think, a very good question perhaps to raise with the Attorney-General or the Regulations Review Committee to give some consideration to, but it\u2019s not one that I can change here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022956dead3c9604d07a910dd09aa165785\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022956dead3c9604d07a910dd09aa165785\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Chief Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227d67c399acff40c58a42f634774df73f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00229189f0eb6ad7467e97987afbcd1f467f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229189f0eb6ad7467e97987afbcd1f467f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s tabled amendments to Supplementary Order Paper 234 amending clause 59B be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ce702b8bbdf34157a47e0a222dbb97c5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002283803d8bed7b410e9015eb2b81d15fe9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283803d8bed7b410e9015eb2b81d15fe9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 4 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 234 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229c46f2a8c8204c94beec5208f2925281\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022922db7dbcbaa423d9b809138e6c71529\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 4 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 4 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dd14406f455948e78f9dac1620b89577\u0022\u003EPart 5  Miscellaneous provisions and amendments to other Acts\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d292cf8b02624c9485cb3dd6e2485785\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d292cf8b02624c9485cb3dd6e2485785\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 5, which is the debate on clauses 66 to 79, \u201CMiscellaneous provisions and amendments to other Acts\u201D. The question is that Part 5 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u0022835b517fc18f436d94a9f36c6f300963\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022835b517fc18f436d94a9f36c6f300963\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Bishop earlier in the debate\u2014somewhat not unfairly or rudely\u2014referred to the Department of Internal Affairs (DIA) as being the department that sort of collects up ephemeral things that don\u2019t fit in anywhere else, and we\u2019re perhaps on to the DIA part of the legislation with Part 5, which includes a range of miscellaneous provisions. Probably the key thing for members of the committee to be aware of are the provisions relating to the registrar of screen industry organisations and the provisions relating to workplace access. There are some, for the most part, relatively minor changes proposed by the select committee in the Supplementary Order Paper I have tabled here. Probably the most significant one from the select committee relates to some changes to the access provision. The provisions in respect of union access do enable access to be denied if there is going to be disruption to screen production activities. There\u2019s now, effectively, an adjunct to that which, basically, says that the parties will first try and see if you can arrange a way of there being access without that causing that level of disruption before you refuse access entirely. So it\u2019s just, effectively, pointing the parties to having a conversation to see if that can be worked around. Other than that, I look forward to discussion and any questions that members have on this part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022746f2cf30e11401182862b9aeaed7ded\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022746f2cf30e11401182862b9aeaed7ded\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m just curious about new clause 65B, where a society is entitled to be registered, and an incorporated society\u2014there are two parts to the negotiations. There\u2019s the worker organisation, and what\u2019s called the engager organisation\u2014you might think of, if a film is being done, the producer of the film or the people organising the film.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ENow, new clause 65B says that an incorporated society, to be registered, is either a worker or an engager. So if we\u2019re thinking of it in terms of the engager\u2014so not the union, but maybe the people putting together a film\u2014the requirement is that \u201C(2)(a) the object or an object of the society is to promote its members\u2019 collective work interests;\u201D. I\u2019m not quite sure what that would mean in terms of an engagers\u2019 organisation, to promote\u2014the \u201Cobject of the society is to promote its members\u2019 collective work interests\u201D. I would have thought, you know, most of the engager organisations would be focused on strengthening the industry, dealing with the Government of the day, and international advertising\u2014making things work. But the \u201Cmembers\u2019 collective work interests\u201D\u2014I\u2019m just not quite sure what that exactly means and how that necessarily applies to the engager side of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EAnd then, when we get to new clause 65G, are we talking the functions of the chief executive that\u2019s still back at the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment? It\u2019s not the Department of Internal Affairs chief executive, I presume. We\u2019re all getting a bit confused about that now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThen, in relation to access, in clause 67\u2014that the representatives of the worker organisations are entitled to go on to the film set at any time that they like, provided that it minimises disruption to the screen activity, protects commercial sensitivity, manages health and safety risks, and maintains security\u2014I just wonder if Minister Wood had in mind any other elements of a film production that it might not be appropriate for the union rep to turn up at, at the critical time, which aren\u2019t covered by any of these descriptions. I just want to ensure that the Minister is sure that he\u2019s covered all the potential situations that wouldn\u2019t be appropriate. In terms of insisting that a union representative can come on at any moment and, presumably, want to talk to workers, has he given much thought to that? I just want to make sure that clause 68(2) covers all the appropriate things that would, you know, potentially create problems for people who are just trying to get on with their work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u002239b2bc9421954d07b5c0f6bded145e97\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239b2bc9421954d07b5c0f6bded145e97\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E I sort of feel, in the parlance of films, that this is the coda. So three questions\u2014firstly, jumping to Part 5, is this legislation bringing about unnecessary bureaucracy, in so far as people already work through a process through the Incorporated Societies Act to become incorporated or not? It feels, to me, that we\u2019re adding a further burden here, understandably to make them\u2014whether they\u2019re a worker or an organisation or an engager, it is a question of whether it\u2019s just more bureaucracy. As I say, either you\u2019re incorporated or not, and there feels, to me, in the first point, to be a little bit of repetitiveness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESecondly, and we have traversed this, along with Chris Bishop, new clause 65G is referring to a chief executive, which ipso facto we no longer really know unless we go to the legislation website, which I would have thought was meant to be a fairly static website. The legislation is passed; it\u2019s sort of immutable. But now we\u2019re being told it can change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022548a4c7c0c9848edb42f7d5be69b0fad\u0022\u003EChris Penk\u003C/span\u003E: Good word\u2014good word.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d448fee35ae844ca86d1522266e287f0\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I thought \u201Cimmutable\u201D was another good word, along with \u201Ccoda\u201D. Who knows what else will come! And, thirdly, jumping to new clause 75A, the review of the Act, the Minister will know that moviemaking is a fast-moving sector, and yet he\u2019s chosen\u2014I think it\u2019s five, but I\u2019ll pop my glasses on; yes, it is five\u2014five years. Should it be fewer? This is quite generally a fast-moving situation. I know I keep coming back to what we\u2019ve seen with Amazon leaving, amongst others. Do we really want to wait five whole years to come back to this? Is it more prudent\u2014or, rather, did he seek any advice on whether we return to this within a year, or perhaps three years? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESo three aspects there. As I say, are we, through new clause 65A, adding extra complexity to societies which are already incorporated? Secondly, just to draw his attention, as I\u2019m sure he\u2019s aware, to new clause 65G, where we\u2019re referring to a chief executive of a department that can, arguably, change outside the legislation. And did he, under new clause 75A and beyond, consider fewer years around the anniversary of commencement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u00224afe8b05ce7b4278b9f0afb698d611b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224afe8b05ce7b4278b9f0afb698d611b9\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m happy to answer a few of the questions that have been asked there. I think the question asked by Mr Goldsmith in respect of new clause 65B and the question asked by Mr O\u2019Connor in respect of new clause 65A come together somewhat, and I think I can provide some clarification here. So an engager organisation is an individual employer themselves. An engager organisation is an organisation like, for example, in this sector, Screen Production and Development Association, which represents the sector or represents a number of individual organisations in the sector. So what we\u2019re really talking about here is a kind of organisation that can engage in occupational-level collective bargaining, where it\u2019s not an individual employer; you need a body who will represent you\u2014a bit like you might think of an employer association in other sectors. So it is necessary that that organisation is incorporated so that it has a legal form and conforms to the responsibilities of the legislation. It is necessary that it represents the collective interests of that sector, so that it has responsibilities back to the organisations that it\u2019s going to be representing at the bargaining table as occupational-level contracts are negotiated. It is a very similar structure, although it came before in terms of the policy design and drafting, as with fair pay agreements, which the House is currently considering as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EIn terms of access, under clause 68(2), to the best of my knowledge and my judgment, I think that the provisions there are pretty comprehensive and cover likely scenarios where there might be an issue to be considered about the appropriateness of access. I do note that, at the select committee process, there were no concerns or issues raised with that access or provisions. You would have expected that companies, producers, if they had thought additional things should be added, might have suggested so at that stage, but they did not. Coming to new clause 75A, as raised by Mr O\u2019Connor\u2014the review after five years\u2014I do believe that is an appropriate juncture. It gives time for a new piece of legislation like this to settle in, for people to get used to it, to really assess how well it may or may not be working. Of course, not every piece of legislation that comes to this House has an inbuilt review mechanism. It\u2019s, effectively, an optional extra that we have decided should be built in, given that this is a new and novel regime. My judgment is that five years is about the right level of time to conduct that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002288dd8527ba9546c6bff374f255c09762\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288dd8527ba9546c6bff374f255c09762\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I go into voting, could those members take their House boxes down from their desks. Thanks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThe question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part\u2014[Interruption]\u2014there will be silence while I am taking the vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThe question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 5 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 234 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221e716204fbf543b8a00fb8f0795d4eee\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e503ee8f351d412c8b60b573d709f0b8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 5 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 5 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002204bb74a4b4f54a0b8d831ddbbf4fdfbf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204bb74a4b4f54a0b8d831ddbbf4fdfbf\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Schedule 1 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 234 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022eb791eef6988457db6ac537e76e6186c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8d486d4132741faad65cfcf05235c42\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8d486d4132741faad65cfcf05235c42\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Schedule 1 as amended stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c7a7c671c8c24055a10ff3c86f47c8e9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002222bfa3e204414a3493fba84e1bcd68ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002222bfa3e204414a3493fba84e1bcd68ff\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment inserting new Schedule 1A set out on Supplementary Order Paper 234 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228d42118130734379b5d932f004913b10\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00227bf52c5b48444a228fb16714320bf37e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227bf52c5b48444a228fb16714320bf37e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Schedule 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022306ac4358f4a42caaec29ab041983ac7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00224056793cdc3e495eb35fc6155e5fe90e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224056793cdc3e495eb35fc6155e5fe90e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment deleting Schedule 3 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 234 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002234f363a97ae444a1b1e31e878ae1cfa9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022038b14135cee43358aee4b40e1dc73fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022038b14135cee43358aee4b40e1dc73fa\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Schedule 4 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 234 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b0d32d2a6db84b199b0a8e5e657dc6a3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002267a331a08cb74a2a855e0916d6107f86\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 4 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 4 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a52c044fb79b46679cee69669026a278\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4d1b3a3ad904ab9a8a500c6f538b06f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4d1b3a3ad904ab9a8a500c6f538b06f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to our final debate, which is on clauses 1 and 2, the title and commencement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u00224901335b128b45af8ce3991ee247855f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224901335b128b45af8ce3991ee247855f\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E If we have completed the coda, now we are at the epilogue, and like a good epilogue, it\u2019s not too long. So the question really is: should we be calling this Act the \u201CScreen Industry Workers Act 2020\u201D? Well, of course we can\u2019t, because now we\u2019re in 2022. But the fundamental question is: can we call it the \u201CScreen Industry Workers Act\u201D when, possibly because of this very Act, there will be no one left in the screen industry to be working, and are we creating something erroneous? So I\u2019m not going to suggest alternatives to the Minister, but I have a serious concern that because of what he is bringing about here, there will be no one in the screen industry to work or to act. So it\u2019d be interesting to know how he\u2019s going to juggle that or allow a little bit of flexibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EAs I touched on in the coda on Part 5, this is a fast-moving industry. I understand that there\u2019s been a bit of debate about when this should come into force, but it is a question of why we\u2019re now waiting three months. I\u2019m sure there are some who are thinking it should take much, much longer; there are some who would argue it should just happen tomorrow. I notice, of course, once we get Royal assent, once that Act\u2014all puns intended; is \u201Cact\u201D in the legal and screen industry a pun? It probably is. The regulation powers come into effect after Royal assent, which makes sense; they\u2019re planning. But why is the Minister waiting three months? As I say, there\u2019s a debating point there. But my fundamental question is: how can he title this bill the \u201CScreen Industry Workers Act\u201D when, in fact, I would argue fewer people will actually be acting as workers in the screen industry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00223ad047f9f34a4ff882fbcb1d2d4b9fa0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ad047f9f34a4ff882fbcb1d2d4b9fa0\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E People who have been tuning in to this debate will probably come to the conclusion that we on this side of the Chamber don\u2019t support this bill. And we don\u2019t support this bill, fundamentally, because it is taking a situation that\u2019s working pretty well, an industry that\u2019s working well\u2014it\u2019s creating jobs, making films, entertaining New Zealanders and people all around the world. It\u2019s been an industry that\u2019s started the careers of many famous New Zealanders who are now on the world stage. It\u2019s provided opportunities for people to have fun and do work that they love. You know, the world\u2019s never perfect, but the industry is going pretty well. And this Government seems, right now, to be mad keen to introduce a whole new regulatory regime in respect to the hiring of people, and a very thick bill with many changes to it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s now supposed to come in three months after it gets its Royal assent\u2014most of the provisions of the bill\u2014and I\u2019ve asked the Minister a number of times and he has dodged and dived and not answered this question: has he received correspondence from people in the sector pleading with him to delay the introduction of this bill further? Because they are conscious of the times being tough, that they are just scrambling out of the pit that COVID has created for their industry; they\u2019re just getting themselves back on their feet. They\u2019ve been through the wringer and they\u2019re tired, they\u2019re exhausted, and they\u2019re stressed. They just want to get back to normality for a while so that they can get on with the things that they love, and this Government is imposing a complicated new set of procedures\u2014costly, complicated, a pain in the neck\u2014that will go on for a long time and distract them at a time when they need to be focused on getting the situation back in control. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo my suggestion would be that he heeds the calls from within the industry, which he hasn\u2019t yet acknowledged, and give it a good year\u2019s delay. If he insists upon passing this bill\u2014we don\u2019t think he should; I think he should take a lesson from his friend and colleague the Hon David Parker and do a big U-turn. We would support him in doing that, right here, right now; and saying, \u201CWell, actually, I\u2019ve changed my mind. I think this bill is a stinker and I\u2019m not going to pass it.\u201D That would be a good thing to do and we\u2019d support him in that. But if he\u2019s not going to do that, we would encourage him to delay the commencement date a year, because it\u2019s going to be a flop. There\u2019s no doubt about it. Delay it a year and then give people a little bit more time to get back on track post-COVID. If he did that, it would be one small indication that he could show the people that he understands the pressure that they\u2019ve been under. So why not? We\u2019ve had one today. Why don\u2019t we have another one? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u002256cb046ac3dc48c4854ff3f5ff9379b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002256cb046ac3dc48c4854ff3f5ff9379b2\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Briefly, in response to the previous member, Paul Goldsmith, I\u2019d just say that not everyone has the same irrational, bent-out-of-shape hatred of unions and collective bargaining that that member and his colleagues do, let alone the very people who make up the sector. As we\u2019ve covered across the course of this debate, this bill has arisen out of a joint good-faith tripartite process in which the companies who produce screen productions sat down with the unions and the guilds, came together, and found some solutions that they\u2019re all happy with, and that\u2019s the legislation we have here before us. The title reflects that. I believe that stable employment relationships will be an important part of the sector prospering and growing in the future, and most people across the sector believe that. In recognition of the fact that there is some work to be done in order to get processes set up for the legislation to move forward with bargaining, we have extended the commencement to three months, which I think is a reasonable balance to strike.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022414ebbeb3aba45048da2a68271c2f0c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022414ebbeb3aba45048da2a68271c2f0c7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that clause 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002234abcc983107454aa7e9f3760ff385ad\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002206be724f8c044e4b9a9982aed27f34c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206be724f8c044e4b9a9982aed27f34c0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment to clause 2 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 234 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022000ca63351f944d688da219d73457146\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00223b30bf53782f4532b16f3d996b5ba1bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b30bf53782f4532b16f3d996b5ba1bc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that clause 2 as amended stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002209cc584dd2824388bdc62e6b2a653538\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000735\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e3bbdb70103d44d9880ad9cdf6203efc\u0022\u003EPlant Variety Rights Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002232c18c6c44e741f5904f3465520b67ae\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022afea3f866b844e5eb04c9c9fb584b2e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022afea3f866b844e5eb04c9c9fb584b2e9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to the Plant Variety Rights Bill. Members, we come to Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u00220f837038ea9b45d19034d044ffe9caaa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f837038ea9b45d19034d044ffe9caaa\u0022\u003EWILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for provisions to be taken as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00229ff9260d31cf4fc88919e8ad2ccfe3be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ff9260d31cf4fc88919e8ad2ccfe3be\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection? There is objection. Members, first we come\u2014[Interruption] Settle. Part 1. This is the debate on clauses 3 to 13 in Schedule 1, \u201CPreliminary provisions\u201D. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a318a796da3b4beeb5e2dd359829c1b1\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022d02c14ed536f4ec5bd3f77de1e00499a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d02c14ed536f4ec5bd3f77de1e00499a\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m very pleased to open proceedings on the Plant Variety Rights Bill. I do want to thank, at the outset, the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee for their consideration of the bill, and, of course, all those who submitted. The committee itself made a number of, I think, useful improvements to the bill after listening to the submitters, and the bill is stronger for it. I also want to specifically acknowledge the industry stakeholders, the M\u0101ori organisations, and the individuals who provided their time and expertise to help develop this legislation. I\u2019m quite convinced that the opportunity for many plant puns lies ahead of us in this debate today. As I look at members opposite, I can see the talent there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EI want to make some introductory comments to this part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022649d7cb2b56b4671a98cb5e50fc36311\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ll stop sowing seeds on this soon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3fc90703db44678b6dc2ae4aaf7ec2b\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re sowing the seeds of\u2014yeah, I concede. The bill governs an area of intellectual property law referred to as \u201Cplant variety rights\u201D or \u201CPVRs\u201D, which give an exclusive right to exploit a plant variety they have developed in order to earn a commercial return from their investment\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6e9794d7df54364b4f677d81e557b34\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Grow up!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288496476d9504b5da6123d4778b12739\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014breeding it; leaf it out! The bill fulfils our obligations in relation to PVRs under both the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership, so it is an important step in meeting the terms of obligation for that trade agreement, and also meets our obligations related to the Treaty of Waitangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EIt strengthens plant breeders\u2019 rights by aligning the PVR regime with the current international standard for PVR protection, known as UPOV-91\u2014and for those watching at home, UPOV is the International Convention for the Protection of New Varieties of Plants. It provides protection for kaitiaki relationships with taonga species and m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori, as recommended in the Waitangi Tribunal\u2019s Wai 262 report. And the bill will promote innovation in our plant breeding industry, and so support economic growth in critical areas of our economy, such as horticulture and the arable and pastoral crops that underpin farming in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESpecifically to Part 1, Part 1 sets out the purposes of the bill, the definitions, and the transitional provisions. In response to issues raised by submitters, the select committee made two significant changes to Part 1 of the bill, and so I just want to address each of them in turn. The first is around the Treaty clause. M\u0101ori submitters raised concerns around how the Crown\u2019s Treaty obligations were referred to in the original purpose clause, arguing that the phrasing appeared to limit the Crown\u2019s obligations to protect kaitiaki relationships. These provisions were examined by a cross-agency group, including the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment, Te Puni K\u014Dkiri, Te Arawhiti, the Crown Law Office, and the Parliamentary Counsel Office. The new purpose clause 3(b) is a straightforward statement of what the bill does, without implying that, in general, this is all the Crown\u2019s Treaty obligations amount to. A new Treaty clause in 3A then sets out how the bill recognises and respects the Crown\u2019s Treaty obligation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022668dce81ee78469a96565784e84b43c3\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Well done; that was a hard road to hoe!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aab696f9e6b6459b9ef923b0498959ca\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re still barking at me from across the way! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe other main change in Part 1 is the definition of \u201Cessentially derived variety\u201D, referred to as an \u201CEDV\u201D. This is a new concept introduced by UPOV-91. If a new variety is essentially derived from an initial variety, then the rights holders of that initial variety also have rights over the EDV and they will come between them to some kind of agreement as to how those rights can be exploited. The definition in the introduction version was, arguably, quite narrow in an attempt to provide more clarity to what is a somewhat ambiguous definition in UPOV-91. Ultimately where the select committee landed in response to submitters was that, actually, it was better to leave the UPOV-91 as it was, as our trading partners have done. So the select committee made that change to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EFinally on this part, under the transitional provisions, any PVR grants made or applications filed before the relevant provisions of the new legislation commence will be considered under the current legislation, the Plant Variety Rights Act 1987. Given that grants were made on this basis, with contracts then drawn up based on those provisions, it is only fair that those provisions are maintained after the new legislation commences. Otherwise, an action that was not an infringement prior to the commencement of the new legislation could suddenly become so, and that doesn\u2019t seem right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESo, in closing, this bill brings Aotearoa in line with the international community, cultivates innovation in plant breeding, and supports economic growth, while protecting our taonga plant species and m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori. I don\u2019t share concerns held by other members about issues such as the term of a PVR, but I do welcome constructive debate on these topics. Thank you, Madam Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u002251b395708436435598ff942e73bfe669\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002251b395708436435598ff942e73bfe669\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It was quite difficult to try and pay attention to the debate with all the to-ing and fro-ing with all the references to plants and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1bf9ff384cd43349996f64e43b3741b\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019ll grow on you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e355918ccdd47b9b8f119e670d9732d\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. I guess those kinds of jokes have set root in this Chamber. Thank you, Minister, for the setting of what this bill is actually all about. I think it is really important to explain that the plant variety rights are a form of intellectual property rights, providing plant breeders with exclusive rights relating to reproductive material, such as seeds or cuttings of the variety in concern. I think, when you actually consider the fact, as the Minister has actually said, this is to bring New Zealand up to the International Union for the Protection of New Varieties of Plants 91 (UPOV-91). The current Plant Variety Rights Act is aligned with an earlier version of UPOV convention, which is UPOV-78. So we need to actually grow with the times and come up with a way that we can actually either, how would you say, accede to the UPOV. I don\u2019t quite know how to pronounce that, is it \u201CYou-pov\u201D or \u201COoh-pov\u201D? UPOV-91. National supports moving to a new plant variety rights regime that will give effect to UPOV-91 and strengthen protection for plant breeders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EI guess with the committee stages, we have to actually go clause by clause. In Part 1, I have specific questions to the Minister. In Part 1, Subpart 1, at clause 3, paragraph (b), it actually talks about how it protects the kaitiaki relationship with taonga species and m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori in the plant variety rights system. And if you actually look at Part 1, Subpart 2, the interpretation of some of that, and if you go to where it actually talks about the kaitiaki relationship, it says \u201Cin relation to a plant species, means the relationship that any particular iwi, hap\u016B, individual of M\u0101ori descent or M\u0101ori entity has, or M\u0101ori in general have, as guardian, trustee, or caretaker of\u2014(a) an indigenous plant species; or (b) a non-indigenous plant species of significance\u201D. So I\u2019m trying to actually find out exactly what those species are. Is there actually a list of the kaitiaki relationships that a particular indigenous plant species or non-indigenous plant species have that are actually of significance to the M\u0101ori for this particular kaitiaki relationship that this part actually talks about?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EOne of the reasons I actually ask that question is because in my own culture, we have specific things that actually have special meaning. For example, what M\u0101ori call k\u016Bmara, in Korean we call goguma. Goguma is a sweet potato that actually nourished the people during the war. That was the only means of food that people actually had in Korea. Sweet potato was boiled up and people actually used it as a meal when they did not have the grains. And the leaves and the stalk of the leaves are, even now, to this day, dried and used as a side dish. So it is actually very special to the Korean people. So, I\u2019m thinking, is k\u016Bmara, which is the same thing as goguma, sweet potato\u2014does it actually have the kaitiaki relationship or the rights in this particular legislation? I would really appreciate if there are others that the Minister thinks that he should highlight to the Chamber on this particular aspect of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022a35e8b6c66144585b5d86c4bb824f7bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a35e8b6c66144585b5d86c4bb824f7bc\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Obviously, that\u2019s the part where we would discuss exactly which ones are in as a separate part of the bill. But I shall endeavour to get the member as best a list as I can as the debate progresses. It\u2019s something I\u2019m aware was covered fairly extensively at the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1894624f576467191eee5adc44c09e8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1894624f576467191eee5adc44c09e8\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Papakura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Oh, sorry, I\u2019ll take this off. [Removes mask] Thank you, Madam Chair. Look, just referring to Part 1, we have Supplementary Order Paper 193, which my colleague Andrew Bayly has tabled, and he\u2019s suggesting that we have an insertion in clause 5, which is for \u201CPlant Variety Intellectual Property Review Tribunal or tribunal means a tribunal established under section 127B(a)\u201D. I wonder if Minister Clark could address whether or not the Government is going to be supporting that, to give some clarity to this. This is actually a very important bill, in terms of the work that\u2019s going on in science and research, obviously, and innovation. So that we make sure we have a bill that we don\u2019t just have to come back to again next year and correct, we have the time, as a committee of the whole House, to get this right. And I wonder if the Minister could give us an indication of whether or not he\u2019s going to be having his party support that particular amendment and clarification.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022af1054fc6762434b8487521e5d05a490\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af1054fc6762434b8487521e5d05a490\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment to clause 7 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 155 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226b90588dc8d5431285410f87c4d3d2a7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; ACT New Zealand 10; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022421d3c1876d14ef5b377b983e781eb51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022421d3c1876d14ef5b377b983e781eb51\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Mark Cameron\u2019s amendments to Part 1 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 186 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c43cdf7b39b142329b4b85b1d1b205f1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00223cb0a0d76811466bb0e7ab637e618748\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223cb0a0d76811466bb0e7ab637e618748\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Andrew Bayly\u2019s amendment to Part 1 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 193 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fa5f6622c25d4a60b06f6323dc06d27d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000765\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225dee811af3af4154a345e61f4b1e6e17\u0022\u003EPart 2  Plant variety rights\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00225499eb580a214877a6becfe1fc7e8010\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225499eb580a214877a6becfe1fc7e8010\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 2, which is the debate on clauses 14 to 20, \u201CPlant variety rights\u201D. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u00228621bf399f5a4aa686a03f3210e4f2e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228621bf399f5a4aa686a03f3210e4f2e6\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Part 2 of the bill sets out exactly what rights a plant variety right (PVR) gives the breeder, the exceptions to those rights, and the term of duration of those rights. By aligning with the 1991 revision of the International Convention for the Protection of New Varieties of Plants, UPOV-91, the bill significantly expands breeders\u2019 rights compared to the current legislation. And this, of course, is good for economic growth, good for intellectual property development, and has been the subject of some public debate about what the right terms of extension are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EResearch commissioned by the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment during the review found that even under the current legislation, the plant breeding innovation system in New Zealand is in pretty good shape. So I should note that from the outset. Under the current Act, farmers do not have to pay to plant saved seed of protected varieties for the next season\u2019s crops. Under the broader exclusive rights in UPOV-91, reflected in the bill at clause 14, farmers would have to pay for this. However, UPOV-91 permits countries to provide an exemption for farm-saved seed, and the bill gives effect to this exemption so farmers do not have to pay royalties when they\u2019re using saved seed of a protected variety for that purpose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESome stakeholders have argued that this decreases the return on the investment in breeding new varieties and might hamper, as a consequence, innovation. The research did not find any evidence in New Zealand that we\u2019re missing out on innovative new crop varieties. I understand there are discussions going on between the relevant parties on this issue\u2014Federated Farmers, the New Zealand Plant Breeding and Research Association, and United Wheat Growers. They are, as I understand it, ongoing conversations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ETo speak to the term of a PVR, the term of a PVR broadly aligns with the minimum terms required by UPOV-91, which is 25 years for woody plants, their rootstock, and potatoes as well, and 20 years for all other plants. There was considerable debate on this issue, as I understand it, during the select committee process. Getting intellectual property settings right is a balancing act. If rights are too weak, New Zealand could be missing out on innovation. If they\u2019re too strong, that can result in higher costs for users, for consumers, which outweigh any benefits from increasing innovation. Research, again, has not found any evidence that New Zealand has been missing out on innovative new plant varieties. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe bill expands the exclusive rights of PVR owners and extends the PVR term for woody plants and rootstock to 25 years from the 23 years allowed for under the current Act. This has the potential to increase the returns that PVR owners earn from the new varieties. In light of this, no case has been made to extend the PVR term beyond those required by UPOV-91. Indeed, that could actually leave growers and consumers worse off, because the increased benefits for rights holders will come at the cost of other groups. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EOne exception to this is the PVR term for potatoes, but this was because the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee was presented with compelling evidence that a 20-year PVR term for potatoes was not long enough to allow breeders to recoup their investment in light of the long time period required to bring a new potato variety to market. A shorter PVR term could, in time, reduce the number of new potato varieties entering the market. I think that\u2019s a sufficient introduction to Part 2, and I look forward to some root and branch analysis of this part of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb68af8446a44a9087f1bd360b167fcd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb68af8446a44a9087f1bd360b167fcd\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Papakura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I don\u2019t know why I bother asking the Minister any questions, because he didn\u2019t bother to answer last time. What I\u2019ve found with the Minister is that a few quips here and there doesn\u2019t actually mean that he\u2019s done his work on it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve seen in this particular bill\u2014I\u2019ve made submissions to the Minister. I wrote to the Minister on 16 June, seeking a meeting to discuss the changes to the Plant Variety Rights Bill proposed by both Zespri and T\u0026amp;G Global in their letter to the Minister on 22 March. I also sent him copies of three Supplementary Order Papers relating to those changes. I received a reply from the Minister 2\u00BD months later, today\u2014today; the day that the bill is being discussed\u2014to say, \u201CNo, it\u2019s not perfect. It\u2019s not perfect, but it would take too long.\u201D Well, it took 2\u00BD months to write that letter, so I suppose it would probably take another 2\u00BD years to discuss it with stakeholders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe letter itself talks about \u201CRevisiting the issues raised by Zespri and T\u0026amp;G Global would involve going back to stakeholders and conducting a further analysis of the impact of proposed changes.\u201D OK, so we know we\u2019re going to be back here again, having to fix this up again. It reminds me of the Credit Contract\u2014what was it called? The Credit Contract Finance, or something\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2b24e36007d47f495068c01806b289a\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: The CCCFA.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b802ead239ad41e094a97a96c918edba\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: The CCCFA\u2014yeah\u2014or something. We ended up back here, having destroyed people\u2019s hopes of getting homes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ESo, anyway, coming back to this bill and the Supplementary Order Papers, these are relatively minor changes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9cc2063ed8641dfae3be9891b6b8e63\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s the same Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed6228b78fa349b3b48e2abf98d6ca4c\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: The same Minister\u2014the same Minister. Too clever\u2014by words\u2014to have a meeting, too clever to talk to the industry, and too clever to consult with the actual stakeholders, who, by the way, we\u2019re very lucky to have. They\u2019re able to still export, despite the fact that they couldn\u2019t get enough workers in to actually pick the fruit in the first place, and they\u2019re now paying a penalty for that because fruit was picked too late. Those same people, who he doesn\u2019t have time to meet with\u2014maybe they should have talked about a biking trip or something, and he could have been there and met you on the biking track. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThey\u2019ve asked to extend the term of the actual licence from 25 to 30 years, and the Minister has come back and said, \u201CWell, that could affect other people.\u201D Yeah, it might well affect other people who want to compete against our New Zealand interests. The amendment to clause 14 that I\u2019ve put up on Supplementary Order Paper 200, inserting subclause (2A), is: \u201Cto \u2018authorise another person\u2019 includes where\u2014(a) the authorising party was outside New Zealand at the time of authorising; but (b) the restricted act occurred in New Zealand.\u201D Well, this all comes from that court case, the Court of Appeal decision in Gao v Zespri Group Ltd [2021] NZCA 442. That clarified that restricted acts occurring in New Zealand, even if authorised by parties overseas, are within both the scope of New Zealand courts\u2019 jurisdiction and the territorial nature of plant variety rights as contemplated in the actual treaty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ESo if we think about it, that is actually that case where New Zealand plant stock was stolen and taken to China and then used to compete against us, and this Minister thinks Zespri doesn\u2019t know what it\u2019s talking about. I think it does know what it\u2019s talking about, and I think it is something where the Minister writing to me and saying, \u201CWell, we need to get it through because everything else is too late on our response as a Government to UPOV-91.\u201D Well, too late\u2014whose fault is that? Is it Zespri\u2019s fault? Is it T\u0026amp;G\u2019s fault? Is it the New Zealand producers\u2019 fault? No, it\u2019s his fault, and they\u2019re having to pay for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EInstead of taking notice of them, in March this year\u2014which was followed up by a letter from me because they couldn\u2019t get to him\u2014he was too busy to meet on that, too. Maybe he should just give up his portfolios and give them to one of these other young thrusters they\u2019ve got over there, like Glen Bennett. He\u2019s a nice young person. I\u2019m sure he\u2019d be keen for it. Jamie Strange\u2014he\u2019d be keen for it\u2014or Ginny Andersen. These people\u2014I\u2019m sure they\u2019d love to have the job if he\u2019s too busy to meet with some of the senior stakeholders, not only in this area, but actually in the country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aaa70e5407fb463eab87e829f77dc68a\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: What about Rachel Boyack? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a37f550f07d4b0da4c751e2675e09f0\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: What about Rachel Boyack? She\u2019d be brilliant, for at least two months. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022a35af0e1897148a0b0e62ed77a6b0a76\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a35af0e1897148a0b0e62ed77a6b0a76\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I would be delighted to respond to the honourable member\u2019s contribution\u2014if I can call it that; a somewhat lazy contribution that neglected to mention the parts in the letter which addressed her concerns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EPerhaps it was convenient not to mention that the arguments she is raising have been considered; that I did meet with the industry and carefully listened to their concerns, despite advice that their concerns might have merits but probably didn\u2019t stack up. Certainly the National Party members of the select committee who approved the select committee report did not agree with those findings. The Hon Judith Collins, here, obviously tried to undermine her own colleagues across Parliament\u2014not something unusual; we\u2019ve seen it before as she undermines other National Party colleagues and their work on the select committee. But then again, she likes the podium.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESo there we are, but I will clarify because I think it\u2019s important to put these things on record for the committee that I did respond to the Hon Judith Collins; that I have laid out the reasons why what, on the face of it, are concerns that do warrant consideration we have, on balance, decided to allow the regime to fall where it lies now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThat is because revisiting these issues\u2014the ones that have been raised by the Zespri and T\u0026amp;G Global\u2014would involve going back and doing further thorough consultation, because they have already been thoroughly consulted on a particular proposal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EGiven the findings of the previous review and also the work of that committee\u2014and I do take on good faith the hard work of those members on the committee, be they National Party members or Labour members, although Judith Collins is now calling that into question\u2014I do think they went through it thoroughly. I have seen the work that they\u2019ve done, I\u2019ve seen the previous review, and I then further wanted to hear the concerns directly from Zespri and T\u0026amp;G Global, because I think they are things that warrant consideration. I think that\u2019s why they were given full consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe other thing to say is that if we do go through another exercise of repeating this exercise, again, it would delay the benefits of a new plant variety rights regime, including the benefits that it would bring to plant breeders\u2014those who are doing the innovation in this country, those who want to seek the rewards of innovating for New Zealand. I don\u2019t think that that is a good idea\u2014that we delay further\u2014when there is opportunity here to reward our innovators through protecting their intellectual property better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESo I meet and hear with Zespri and T\u0026amp;G Global, who presented, I thought, a compelling case but not a case so compelling that it was immediately obvious that the balance that the previous review and the select committee had found was not the best balance right now; certainly, also, the Gao v Zespri Group case. I mean, evidence has been presented to me that, again, how the law is now described is the best outcome. I\u2019ll read out that paragraph just for the benefit of the committee in the letter that I\u2019ve provided to the honourable member. The authorising issue, which is the one that the Hon Judith Collins has raised, I have stated clearly I don\u2019t see the need for any changes here. If an unauthorised act takes place in New Zealand, there is clear ground for infringement proceedings to be commenced. If an unauthorised act takes place outside New Zealand, then this is outside the jurisdiction of the New Zealand plant variety rights regime, as set out in the Court of Appeal\u2019s decision in the Gao v Zespri Group case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EI further note that the New Zealand Law Society initially supported Zespri and T\u0026amp;G Global\u2019s position on this issue, and that was partly why it was the subject of such fierce debate. But the Law Society has since withdrawn its position following that Court of Appeal decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESo the matters do lie where they fall. It is something that has been thoroughly debated and I do respect the work that the select committee members did and I want to acknowledge those members\u2014both the Labour members and the National members\u2014that did that work. I don\u2019t think, unfortunately, that the argument that Judith Collins brings to delay the bill further, for further consideration of their work, is the best way forward here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EBut, of course, we will see how all of this legislation works through and we will make sure that we continue to learn and amend bills and Acts as we always do in this Parliament. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022277922fc263849bba67a6bbf1149565e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022277922fc263849bba67a6bbf1149565e\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Papakura):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. I seek leave of the House to table a letter I received today, dated today, from the Hon Dr David Clark, relating to the matter that we\u2019ve just been discussing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa94a3f40f534ac98843abf2d70fe93f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa94a3f40f534ac98843abf2d70fe93f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u00229f90c986c5e2496da4ac653243d001df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f90c986c5e2496da4ac653243d001df\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d just like to start off my contribution on Part 2 by perhaps reminding the Minister\u2014I guess he hasn\u2019t actually sat in a select committee for a little while, so he has forgotten how it actually operates\u2014the select committees do a job, and I think the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee actually does quite well. We work collegially, and I see the chair across the room, my good friend Jamie Strange, who does wonderful work. But the things is that, on select committees, Opposition members are often outnumbered, and often things actually do get past select committee. I\u2019m not suggesting that we oppose the bill\u2014we support the bill\u2014but there are things that need to be done in the committee stage in the House, where members can actually ask questions of the Minister as well as make suggestions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EI think the Hon Judith Collins actually made a wonderful contribution and actually made suggestions through her Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) where she proposed to extend the plant variety right licence years in clause 18(3)(a), to replace 25 years with 30 years. That actually comes, as she said, from the recommendations from the industry. When the Minister suggests that, well, the consultation is over and it\u2019s far too late, why are we sitting in the committee stage in Parliament if it\u2019s too late and what the select committee did is end of story? Why don\u2019t we actually just wipe out the committee of the whole House stage and just get on with it? I just don\u2019t see the point of a committee of the whole House stage, when members should be able to question the Minister and actually make recommendations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThe reason why I believe the Hon Judith Collins actually recommended this is that even I, not a plant grower, not a breeder, but an amateur gardener, who actually\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c1fe7d2983641279af000191a39ccc3\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t you have green thumbs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9d0193ea35045e5b5390cdf3fc9d122\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE\u003C/span\u003E: Not quite! But I planted my favourite fruit tree in my garden\u2014persimmons. I bought a plant\u2014persimmons. It wasn\u2019t actually a small thing or grown from a seed, but it takes years before it will fruit. For a plant breeder who might get a new variety, it might be from a seed or from a stone. I don\u2019t know\u2014they do a cutting and they actually create a new breed or new variety of fruit. Let\u2019s say a persimmon. They plant it in the ground and it takes years for it to actually start fruiting. If that is the case, if that breeder is to make any money from the new variety of fruit that they\u2019ve just done, 25 years may not be long enough, because 10 years might already have been taken up for the tree to actually grow. If that\u2019s the case, what\u2019s the point of them having that right? I think extending it so that they actually do take some benefit from having the right to grow the plant and actually gain the fruit of their labour is something that we need to actually look at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EIf the industry, who actually came to the Hon Judith Collins\u2014and, I mean, Zespri is one who do amazing work. I mean, Zespri is where kiwifruit\u2014I love the gold ones; I\u2019m not quite sure about the green ones. But they actually expanded their reach by going to other countries, like South America and Korea, where they actually license them to grow it so they can expand the lifecycle of the export market, so we\u2019re not just reliant on our growing season, but also another part of the world that has opposite seasons to take benefit. I think this SOP by Judith Collins on clause 18 is a wonderful example of how we can improve this legislation, and I would hope that the Minister would take heed of our suggestion, because I think it\u2019s a good one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022995ef0162992487fb895a5678fae4770\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022995ef0162992487fb895a5678fae4770\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is the Hon Dr David Clark\u2019s amendment to Part 2 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 132 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022818605f1be0f42a8b2a2882db3916c94\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 108\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; New Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022179e38cb9ba247a1a8edfa5a069eacc0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022179e38cb9ba247a1a8edfa5a069eacc0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Judith Collins\u2019 amendment to clause 14 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 200 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e3f7c51ab3ef4be18a67502bb9ad351c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002276b045d90ebb4cf481b3069503c97f44\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002276b045d90ebb4cf481b3069503c97f44\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Judith Collins\u2019 amendment to clause 18 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 202 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002266dbaa1f7cb74fd68fd6f89c243736ae\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000809\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cae0510f036d446eacc2557ed86fdb07\u0022\u003EPart 3  Infringement and enforcement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5bd901bae0b4ed180fe83a1b854a073\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5bd901bae0b4ed180fe83a1b854a073\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 3. This is the debate on clauses 21 to 27, \u201CInfringement and enforcement\u201D. The question is that Part 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u00224a7078707f9f4b9f8e4737e55ca52c26\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a7078707f9f4b9f8e4737e55ca52c26\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Part 3 of the bill sets out what constitutes an infringement of a plant variety right (PVR), how and when proceedings can be brought, and what relief is available. International Union for the Protection of New Varieties of Plants 91 requires that some measures be put in place to protect breeders\u2019 interests between the filing of an application and the grant of a right. This is known as \u201Cprovisional protection\u201D. Different countries take different approaches to this issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe bill provides that while a PVR can be infringed during this period, proceedings cannot be commenced until after the grant is made. That is a change from the current Act, under which proceedings can commence during this period. Many submitters expressed concerns at this change; however, the problem with the approach that is in the current Act is that if a PVR is never granted, the defendant may incur considerable costs even though they were not actually infringing a PVR. The fact that proceedings can be taken in relation to infringements during the provisional protection period but only after a PVR is granted is sufficient to protect the breeder\u2019s interests. This is the approach taken by our major trading partners, including Australia, the United Kingdom, and the EU.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00220d246add064d4300a0e2715b6b98a206\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d246add064d4300a0e2715b6b98a206\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Thanks to the Minister and others on this side of the Chamber who have been engaging, I think, in a really interesting discussion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d8e1209fd794dc3845dcee5a2309d17\u0022\u003EHon Dr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Fruitful!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f3667bf81a444849585f98370c0f7db\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Fruitful discussion indeed! So in Part 3 we\u2019ve heard about infringements and remedies and so forth, so the Minister\u2019s opening comments have been helpful. I do want to take him to Subpart 2, which is called infringement proceedings\u2014that\u2019s clause 27. So this provision is titled: \u201CTypes of relief available for infringement\u201D. I wonder if the Minister, through this bill, is meaning to say that the court can grant only some types of remedies but not others. And the context, for anyone who\u2019s following this debate with great interest, or at least following it, but without the bill in front of them, it says, \u201CThe relief that the court may grant for an infringement of a PVR includes\u2014(a) an injunction; and (b) at the option of the plaintiff, damages or an account of profits.\u201D So we\u2019re having ruled in the things that can be awarded by the court, but I wonder if that implies that others can\u2019t, or if maybe the bill is saying, \u201CThese ones can, and others may or may not.\u201D? I think it would be a significant step, and I don\u2019t say an incorrect one, but significant either way, for this House to derogate from the inherent jurisdiction of a court to hear a matter in relation, in this case, to plant variety rights\u2014PVRs\u2014and to tie the hands of that court and to say that only certain types of remedies can be offered; that seems to me would be an interesting exercise in those two different branches of Government respecting each other\u2019s roles and responsibilities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAnd it might be that I\u2019ve got the wrong end of the stick. I didn\u2019t have the benefit of the discussion at the select committee, as others have talked about, as chaired\u2014no doubt ably and very capably\u2014by our Jamie Strange. But if he, maybe, or others who are on the select committee, or indeed the Minister himself\u2014and I see he\u2019s consulting officials so I\u2019ll keep talking a little bit longer to allow that, in case there should be no other contributions on Part 3, because I think it would be quite interesting and helpful to know the answer to that question. I sense that the Minister\u2019s getting very close to being able to provide it, and I don\u2019t know if Judith Collins, who\u2019s made herself expert in these matters but also knows a thing or two about the law, might have a contribution to make as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u00221f2b8ebe7c0040888acf8f80729907f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f2b8ebe7c0040888acf8f80729907f4\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just to respond to the member\u2019s questions: it is a non-exhaustive list, and it mirrors, I\u2019m told, what\u2019s in the Patents Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u00225a65e0cc2d044faeab108b7c78999309\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a65e0cc2d044faeab108b7c78999309\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Papakura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I bring the attention of the committee to clause 28(2), and I note the Supplementary\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f460a6743cd467887ff5eb1317379d5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry; point of order. Could the member just tell me which clause she is referring to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb2e22ee87eb4f62b15222e1f920c183\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: Clause 28\u2014sorry, Madam Chair; the issue of clause 25A is what I meant to talk about. The issue around the expiry of a plant variety right (PVR)\u2014the restrictions during and following expiry; there are some issues around that. Not only that but also in relation to a plant variety having been, say, developed but not having been so fully developed as to be able to get its PVR rating, as such, or authorisation. I just wonder whether or not there is any thought being given by the Minister as to whether or not there is going to be any protection given to those people who are inventing new varieties or working on new varieties while they\u2019re waiting for the PVR to be granted. Is there any thought to doing that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb4160291d724b4cb82b55b391908fd3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb4160291d724b4cb82b55b391908fd3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 3 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 132 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226b1e199b6725456aa46cd3227913e904\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 108\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; New Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000823\u0022\u003EPart 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221025412538ae46208f6de7bae402af17\u0022\u003EPart 4  Grant of plant variety rights\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022772f279522b94711aa423268e140e249\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022772f279522b94711aa423268e140e249\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 4. This is the debate on clauses 28 to 51, \u201CGrant of plant variety rights\u201D. The question is that Part 4 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022821a06576925445d82a1a7edf2eae01d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022821a06576925445d82a1a7edf2eae01d\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Part 4 of the bill sets out all the details around granting a plant variety right (PVR), including the criteria that must be met, the information required with an application, and how that application will be considered. If a candidate variety meets the five criteria set out in International Union for the Protection of New Varieties of Plants 91, and replicated in the bill, then a PVR will, indeed, be granted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe exception to this is when the candidate variety may be from a species that is taonga to M\u0101ori. In this instance, the application will first go to the M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee, who will consider possible impacts on kaitiaki relationships and then determine whether the application can proceed or not. We\u2019ll come to the provisions governing that process in Part 5, so that\u2019s a slightly separate debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThere was nothing particularly controversial raised about provisions in Part 4 during the select committee process, though the committee has made some useful amendments. Submitters raised concerns that some acts, though not commercial in nature, may destroy the novelty requirement, rendering the variety ineligible for a PVR. The select committee addressed that issue by carrying over provisions from the current Act to prevent that happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESome M\u0101ori submitters raised concerns about information shared by kaitiaki during the application process. The default setting is that all information relating to an application is made publicly available. Submitters were concerned that this may not be appropriate for some information shared by kaitiaki\u2014for example, in relation to their m\u0101tauranga. The select committee added a requirement that before making any such information publicly available, the commissioner must first consult with the M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee and must follow any recommendations they make.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u00225b062c7917294d179143c7472b2db0e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b062c7917294d179143c7472b2db0e7\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Papakura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Now we come to clause 28. Look, I\u2019ve got a Supplementary Order Paper from our colleague Andrew Bayly, Supplementary Order Paper 192, and he\u2019s suggesting that there be some amendments to clauses 28 and 52. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ESo the Minister spoke as though there needs to be consultation with the M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee. I\u2019m not sure it actually is consultation. It says in the bill that\u2014it really sounds more like it\u2019s a veto power. So I would normally ask the Minister, but since he seems to just sit down after I\u2019ve asked my question and sat down, I really don\u2019t want to waste my time waiting for him to find the answer and answer the question. So I think this is something that does need to be looked at. Is this really going to be where we go, where we decide that there is now going to be a veto power? If that\u2019s what it is, then the Government should say what it is. If it is in fact a consultation, that\u2019s not the same because I don\u2019t see how \u201Cthe M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee decides\u201D can actually be \u201Cand I\u2019m consulting with the M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee\u201D. I think that\u2019s really more like a veto, and people need to know that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIn fact, Andrew Bayly has suggested that that be changed to \u201CM\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee advises\u201D, because that sounds more like consultation. Saying that that is a consultation is a bit like the Auckland Council sending me the rates bill and saying they\u2019re consulting with me; it\u2019s already been decided. So I\u2019m not really sure how that can be consultation, or if that\u2019s the new thing, under the Ardern Government\u2014of \u201Cconsulting\u201D. So we are suggesting, from this side of the Chamber, that there be less of a false consultation and more of reality. So it\u2019s going to be \u201CThe M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee advises, under section 65(1)(c), that an agreed or proposed condition must be a condition of grant of a PVR, the Commissioner might impose that condition when granting the plant variety right.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThis is not a consultation. What is in this bill is actually a veto power, because it says very clearly that if the committee decides that something needs to be a condition in the plant variety right, or condition of it, then that\u2019s the way it has to be. Now, if it is, the Government should be upfront about it. We should know what it is we\u2019re being asked to vote for, and we believe it shouldn\u2019t be that veto power, but it should be advising and giving advice on. That is, in our opinion, on this side of the House, more like consultation rather than a decision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ESo I wonder if the Minister could actually rise to his feet and maybe just, you know, cut the actual insults and get down to that. Is it a decision or is it consultation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e26ee501b7c24a4fb98fe319e37a4d12\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e26ee501b7c24a4fb98fe319e37a4d12\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for me to report progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EProgress to be reported\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aff1841e4f894808a159d9596d6a85bd\u0022\u003EReport of Committee of the Whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bd40673f239b453cad852cd4484594e0\u0022\u003EReport of Committee of the Whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002225db3a293167493b9b6100bba63e559f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225db3a293167493b9b6100bba63e559f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, the committee has considered the Animal Welfare Amendment Bill and reports it without amendment. The committee has also considered the Screen Industry Workers Bill and reports it with amendment. The committee has also considered the Plant Variety Rights Bill, and reports progress. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00220f9c6fa56fc849a086853c9254f0d54f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f9c6fa56fc849a086853c9254f0d54f\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: In accordance with a determination of the Business Committee the House is suspended, and I\u2019ll resume the Chair at 9 a.m. tomorrow for the extended sitting to consider private, local, and members\u2019 orders of the day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 9.57 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Thursday).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220831a634b17390834254966f88515e7f4c65000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bb90e6b8a71f40818c6bd168efd8da18\u0022\u003EWEDNESDAY, 31 AUGUST 2022\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002286d78d6959f742dcbbb6406c5513520a\u0022\u003E(continued on Thursday, 1 September 2022)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002205b1f879fb454193b4f567d82ebbec4a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205b1f879fb454193b4f567d82ebbec4a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is resumed for extended sitting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225e73c188fa3743268be66bee41921fa5\u0022\u003EPalmerston North Reserves Empowering Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dfb6fbd166884a16acf165c8a20d6962\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u002239acadadfe134f8bbeea384250ada28f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239acadadfe134f8bbeea384250ada28f\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Palmerston North Reserves Empowering Amendment Bill be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a pleasure to rise for the start of the third reading of this local bill. It is a small and discrete bill, as members have commented previously, but it relates to a discrete piece of land that is currently situated\u2014there\u2019s no suggestion that it will move in the near future\u2014on the corner of Park Road and Fitzherbert Avenue in Palmerston North, colloquially known as the Huia Street Reserve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThis bill is a local bill, and those who are joining us at 9 a.m. this morning are probably thinking, \u201CWhat is happening? Parliament is spending its time talking about Palmerston North.\u201D, and what better way could the Parliament be spending its time than to regale about people\u2019s experiences and opportunities in Palmerston North? This bill is a local bill and it\u2019s one that is a rarity. It\u2019s one that is promoted by the local council, and as the MP for Palmerston North it\u2019s my first local bill to go through Parliament. It is promoted by the Palmerston North City Council, and as the local member I am its sponsor. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EIn terms of the passage of this bill, it was introduced in November of last year. It has gone through all stages and has landed at the third reading this morning. It\u2019s interesting to note that colleagues have taken the opportunity all around the House to talk about their experiences and their connection to the mighty Manawat\u016B, and, for some, even the mighty Rangit\u012Bkei as well. Some members are not quite clear whether Palmerston North sits within the Manawat\u016B District or the Rangit\u012Bkei District, but I\u2019m sure Mr McKelvie will clear that up if he makes a contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EEven though this bill was introduced in November last year, it has been in train for quite some time\u2014well over two years\u2014and I recall, as the former Deputy Mayor of Palmerston North prior to coming to this place, that it was always on the agenda. It was always something that was discussed out in the community, and so this bill will come as no surprise to the people of Palmerston North. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWhat I would say is that this particular piece of land is not unfamiliar to the Parliament. If we look back at Hansard we see there have been parts of this land that have already been subject to the parliamentary process. Parts of the land have, effectively, been carved off and given to Palmerston North Girls\u2019 High School for development. But also, previously, one of my predecessors\u2014the Hon Steve Maharey\u2014had bought this bill to the Parliament, but it was withdrawn because the level of support was not guaranteed by the community and by the council. I\u2019m delighted that what the Parliament has in front of it at the bill\u2019s third reading is evidence from the community but also from the council that informed the decision-making process of the select committee that those concerns that were expressed some 15 years ago, or thereabouts, are no longer concerns that the select committee has. Therefore, the Parliament can have some confidence, I would suggest, in passing this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI would note, though, that even though some of these contributions have been identified as part of the parliamentary process up to this point, none the less it is important to place this on the record for the benefit of those who at some stage in the future might look back at what Parliament was doing this particular morning, so they can reflect on some of the contributions that have been made. The meat in terms of this bill lies in clause 5, which is the amending of section 3 of the Palmerston North Reserves Empowering Act 1966. Clause 5 does the changeover from what was three Acts\u2014this piece of land was subject to three Acts. It will now basically smooth the process, and while the Act itself won\u2019t compel the council to sell the land, it certainly gives them the option to do so if they wish to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the Palmerston North City Council for their diligence. There is a process that those who have shepherded a local bill through the Parliament will be familiar with. It\u2019s one that I was not familiar with prior to coming to this place. But there is an appendix to the Standing Orders that outlines a fairly prescriptive process that local authorities must go through before a local bill is introduced, and that is a process that is certified by the Clerk of the House to ensure that there is compliance. So I also want to acknowledge the diligence of the Palmerston North City Council for the work they\u2019ve done in preparing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI also want to reflect on the contributions some colleagues have made about the extra effort the Palmerston North City Council had gone to. Even though the select committee was not able to undertake a site visit as such, the approach of the council was second to none in the sense of providing drone footage, providing an opportunity to hear commentary on what was happening around the place, and I do know that some members have visited Palmerston North and passed the site since then. I want to acknowledge our mayor, Grant Smith, in Palmerston North and also David Murphy, Desiree Harvey, and Nicholas Jessen for the work they\u2019ve done in preparing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI also acknowledge my other local parliamentarians\u2014Ian McKelvie, who is the MP for Rangit\u012Bkei\u2014and Palmerston North City Council. Part of that land\u2014not the Huia Street Reserve\u2014falls within his electorate, as is the case for the Rt Hon Adrian Rurawhe, the Speaker, whose Palmerston North constituency falls within as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI do want to briefly comment on the land itself and more specifically around the nature of the land that is adjacent or nearby. Some of the submitters have expressed a view that if the council was to develop this land for medium or high density housing, as it may choose to do in the future, or not, then it puts at risk the opportunity to have access to green space. When we step back and have a look at the existing green portfolio near that land, I can rattle off quite a list. It is adjacent to Victoria Esplanade, which itself is a gem in our city and our region. There are botanical gardens, the Dugald MacKenzie Rose Garden, He Ara Kotahi, the shared pathway that connects the Rangit\u012Bkei electorate to the Palmerston North electorate, Mr McKelvie, but there are other opportunities around Ongley Park, Wallace Park, Fitzherbert Park, Manawaroa Park, our riverside walkway, and of course, the Square, and Te Marae o Hine, the Courtyard of the Daughter of Peace, is in very close proximity, as members will be aware, to this particular site.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022315cb0ea42484c6e807fc9dc2a185645\u0022\u003EMarja Lubeck\u003C/span\u003E: I am now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edc2be28c6ac4ff68d905c65b6e3ee43\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, thank you, Ms Lubeck. There have been a number of suggestions throughout this process that if the land is going to be sold, why do we need an Act of Parliament to allow that. Why is the House spending time talking about this legislation? The answer to that is very clear. The legislative provision exists for us to do this, but also there is no other way in which the council, if it chooses to develop and sell the land, can do so. There is a legislative prohibition based on the current standing of the law, and so this bill will allow the council to do that. I will point out, however, that this still will be subject to a full council consultative process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe Parliament, in passing this legislation this morning\u2014which I\u2019m hopeful it will do\u2014will not necessarily guarantee that the council will go on and develop the land. When I think about the fact that we have elections in our local communities in October, for Palmerston North City Council we already have two new members, Debi Marshall-Lobb and Roly Fitzgerald, who have been elected to the M\u0101ori ward, but we also have three other councillors who are standing down, including the deputy mayor Aleisha Rutherford, and the chair of finance and audit Susan Baty, and one other. So already, in a council of 16, nearly one-third will be new. So this not predetermining a particular course of action, but it is giving the empowerment or enabling the council to embark upon a process of community consultation if at some stage in the future it desires to do that. The decision-making principles that will inform that process are no different to the ones that councils are expected to abide by and fall into line with, I guess, with any other form of consultation, and that would certainly be an expectation that I would have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EIn my concluding comments this morning can I just acknowledge that the work of the select committee has been fantastic. I know that they\u2019ve got up close and personal with this particular bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204202772f1194f20aca2421d6a36d17e\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Palmy!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022458cffae2550474c8031d60366f14f12\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Go Palmy. And, also, the fact that they have returned a report as part of this process that effectively recommends that the bill be passed with no amendments, and at all stages that has been a unanimous view of members. I\u2019m hopeful that that will continue through its passage this morning. The timing effect is that once this bill receives Royal assent, it will become law the day after that, so the council has some certainty around that. It has been a fulsome process and one that I have been very pleased to be a part of, and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022387dfd39b3db4bc7a480ede46c480bad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022387dfd39b3db4bc7a480ede46c480bad\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2eb4da689c049a68cfc65d6f731b1ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2eb4da689c049a68cfc65d6f731b1ff\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei):\u003C/span\u003E Well, Madam Speaker\u2014[Clears throat] Excuse me\u2014it\u2019s a bit early in the morning for me. It\u2019s a pleasure to take a call on this local bill, and, interestingly, local bills are historically usually\u2014or generally, I suppose\u2014uncontentious in this Parliament. That hasn\u2019t necessarily been the case in recent years, but this one certainly is, and following my fellow Manawat\u016B MP Tangi Utikere, it really gives me the opportunity to talk about everything but the bill, because he did such a good job of summing up what the bill was all about that I\u2019ll only damage what he\u2019s talked about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EAs he said, this bill has been around for a long time. This piece of land has been sitting in Palmerston North for quite some years now, for nearly 20 years doing absolutely nothing, and it\u2019s actually a bit of an eyesore. It\u2019s in a very pretty part of Palmerston North, but also a part of Palmerston North that\u2019s strongly recreational. Just as the previous speaker said, there\u2019s a new bridge connecting the Rangit\u012Bkei to the Palmerston North electorate, and it\u2019s amazingly well used as well. I would have thought, at the time, that it should be taking cars as well as feet, but it only takes feet and bikes. But it is a great asset and it adds to the recreational assets in that part of Palmerston North, and I think it reinforces the fact that this piece of land would never serve again as recreational\u2014I think it\u2019s highly unlikely to ever serve again as a recreational reserve, or even to be used for recreational purposes. It is in a part of Palmerston North that\u2019s well-connected and it would make an excellent housing reserve or any other use we or the city council want to put it to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EAs Tangi Utikere said, the city council did a great job of bringing this to the Parliament, and I did sit on the Environment Committee and I thought the select committee also did a pretty good job of reviewing it. Ironically, the select committee didn\u2019t go to Palmerston North, and I was thinking about that as the previous speaker was speaking. Of course, Air New Zealand\u2019s canned their flights to Palmerston North, so there\u2019s no way the select committee could get there unless it went by car. So maybe Air New Zealand might like to reinstate those flights to Palmerston North. It was a very useful service interestingly, because it didn\u2019t actually go to Palmerston North; it went to Hamilton, but it stopped in Palmerston North, and it was really quite a good service for us, and you\u2019d have to hope that Air New Zealand might one day reinstate that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI want to go back in history a bit. I was once a mayor myself, and now I\u2019m getting out of this place, I can safely say that I stood on the basis of getting rid of the Manawat\u016B District, and I was always quite keen to amalgamate the Manawat\u016B District and Palmerston North City. The reason is that everything that surrounds Palmerston North relies on Palmerston North for almost everything it does, and this is not an uncommon occurrence. It happens in provincial New Zealand often, really, where we\u2019ve got separate territorial authorities but we\u2019ve got one of them providing all the recreational assets, all the entertainment assets, and pretty much, I guess, all the essential services, and yet the other authorities adjacent to them have great difficulty contributing to what goes on in those areas\u2014and when I say that they have difficulty, they have difficulty coming to an arrangement which is suitable for both the territorial authorities from a funding perspective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003ESo it is an interesting challenge for a city like Palmerston North, surrounded by, particularly in this case, the Manawat\u016B District. But it also supplies services into Levin, and even\u2014although I could get in trouble with a Whanganui person\u2014to some extent, into Whanganui. So it really is the capital of our part of the world and, as such, it provides many, many services, and to have the opportunity to control their own destiny, I suppose, in many ways is important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EThe other thing that\u2019s interesting about this is it\u2019s often in local areas we find pieces of land like this that are controlled by Acts of Parliament. It\u2019s very common with racecourses, and with A and P showgrounds\u2014both of those are controlled by Acts of Parliament, actually\u2014and I\u2019ve been in my time, or for part of it at least, involved with two or three different Acts that have come to the House wanting to deal to local issues. One of them was the Manawat\u016B A and P showgrounds in Palmerston North. They were subject to an Act of Parliament. That Act had to come to Parliament to enable that to be disbanded and sold to the city council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003ESo we have some very odd things in our little patches, I suppose you\u2019d say, that for reasons of history become very complex and, therefore, have to be unwound. It takes a bit of the time of this Parliament to unwind those things. I guess it\u2019s a cost, but none the less it\u2019s how it is, and it\u2019s probably how it should be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EThe other thing, of course, about the control of reserves in New Zealand is that local areas or communities only get the benefit, generally, of about half of the asset if it\u2019s ever sold, because of the various Acts of Parliament that control that, so the State, effectively, takes 50 percent of most of our reserves when and if they\u2019re sold. So you consequently get the stalling of progress, to some extent, because local councils aren\u2019t particularly interested in winding up reserves and things like that that are no longer necessary\u2014they\u2019re a part of history, but they\u2019re no longer necessary\u2014and then using them for other things, because in the course of doing that, they give the State 50 percent of the money which is generated locally. So I suppose I\u2019ve always thought that that was unjust and an odd thing to have to do, but none the less it\u2019s the way our laws are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t think I\u2019m going to talk for ever because, as I said, Tangi Utikere did a great job of describing the bill and what it does. Like him, I congratulate both the select committee and the Palmerston North City Council for the way they brought this to Parliament and got it through pretty slickly, really. So that\u2019s probably my lot, I think.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002209d8eb9ff9934e3ab6968635694ea883\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002209d8eb9ff9934e3ab6968635694ea883\u0022\u003ERACHEL BROOKING (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker, for this opportunity to talk on the Palmerston North Reserves Empowering Amendment Bill. As we\u2019ve heard, it\u2019s a local bill, and that means that it\u2019s the council that has to bring it to their member of Parliament, which, of course, is the wonderful Tangi Utikere. He knows the council pretty well because he used to be the Deputy Mayor of Palmerston North so I\u2019m sure he very much enjoyed working with council to make sure that all of the compliance checks that he discussed, set out in the Standing Orders, I believe\u2014to bring this here. He was a member of the Environment Committee when this bill started its life with us as the select committee. Unfortunately, he\u2019s left us now, but he did come back and make sure that the bill was ushered through in the best way possible\u2014so thank you for that, Mr Utikere. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ENow we\u2019ve heard a bit about how the select committee didn\u2019t visit the site. This was a time where it\u2019s been difficult to travel and the previous members talked about a lack of aeroplanes. When I Google-Mapped the site it did say that it was an hour, 49-minute drive, so perhaps the lack of aeroplane wasn\u2019t the reason that we did not manage a site visit; it may have had more to do with COVID restrictions during some of the time that we were considering the bill. However, the member for Palmerston North has made sure that a lot of his colleagues have come to visit Palmerston North, so I can assure anybody who\u2019s listening to this speech that I have had the privilege of visiting Palmerston North at least twice this term already\u2014a wonderful place to visit. I\u2019m sure I\u2019ll be there again. And when I was there, I did drive past this site because it is an easy site to drive past in terms of it\u2019s on one of the main roads, and I\u2019ll talk about that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a068ba08bfe84ee496763a6e13990b91\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Didn\u2019t stop.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206469a9157b847c595d62f49336f765b\u0022\u003ERACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: At the time, I was busy\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022135065655c984a6c8d19d847916c8013\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: It was a drive-by.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f864befc9db94c59b78a76d77c3bcf3c\u0022\u003ERACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014there\u2019s an assertion being made that I didn\u2019t stop at the site. That is true, I have not stopped at the site. But should I be back in Palmerston North I absolutely will make sure to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThe site that we\u2019re talking about is 1.6 hectares and it\u2019s currently a recreation reserve and it is bounded by two fairly major roads: one in particular that you do drive down if you\u2019re visiting Palmerston North. If you don\u2019t know Palmerston North well, you drive down it, and it\u2019s a few blocks into town, which is why you\u2019d probably be driving past it. And then on the other side it is quite close to the river as well. We didn\u2019t have a site visit but we did get this amazing video that all of the select committee watched. It was drone footage from every possible angle that you could look at the site so I feel as if I have visited the site. I can tell you that on this corner site there are some tennis courts, and you can see some car parking and things going on, on the site. And there are indeed easements for parking and vehicle access to the area. There is some grass. Ian McKelvie said that it was a bit of an eyesore. I think that\u2019s unkind, but there is grass and there are trees. There are some indigenous trees, but also some exotic trees that we heard about in submissions. It\u2019s also close to a high school, it\u2019s close to the parks that Tangi Utikere referred to. There\u2019s a playcentre and a scout hall nearby. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo this is the piece of land. It\u2019s been part of a much bigger piece of land that\u2019s been subject to legislation since 1876. There\u2019s been various different pieces of legislation to deal with the reserves in the mighty Palmerston North. And I should say that I am a bit of a fan of Palmerston North, because that is where my parents met. So thank you to Palmerston North.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThe land is currently held under the Palmerston North Reserves Act 1922, and that Act provides for leasing of the land, that\u2019s at section 4, building and making streets, at section 7, leasing for sports, at section 8, and also some housing. That housing is supposed to be workers\u2019 housing. But what this 1922 Act doesn\u2019t have is an enablement to sell or divest this recreation reserve. And so the Reserves Act 1977 applies and that looks under Land Act 1948 and some quite complicated processes within those things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EBut there is more legislation about Palmerston North and the reserves. So there is the Palmerston North Reserves Empowering Act 1966 and under this Act, land is able to be sold if the land is subject to the Act. \u201CEmpowering\u201D is an important word in that legislation because it does allow this enablement, and obviously enablement is something that the Labour Government is very interested in. It was great to see the bipartisan support last year for the resource management enabling housing and other matters bill, as it was. So we want to enable things where it\u2019s appropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThe bill that is before us today, amends this 1966 empowering Act to make it applicable to the 1.6032 hectare area that we\u2019ve heard described in the past three speeches. How it does that is it amends section 3 of the 1966 Act. I\u2019ll just make sure I\u2019ve got the right Act here\u2014I do. So that Act at section 3 \u201CLands vested in the Council\u201D says, \u201CThe lands described in Schedule 1 and Schedule 4 are hereby vested in the Council\u201D and it goes on to say that this Act applies to those lands. What the bill before us does is insert \u201Cand [Schedule] 5\u201D and then Schedule 5 describes the land, the 1.6 hectares. So it\u2019s a very short bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd23b2f33a3948f2a77d7aebef9c9b99\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Read it out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206e1826bf2a3420da8f159ef48f2b2fe\u0022\u003ERACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve been asked to read out the bill, but I\u2019m sure somebody will take that opportunity soon. I\u2019ve got some other things that I want to say about this very short but very important bill about the wonderful Palmerston North, represented so well by its local MP. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWhat this change means, by incorporating the land in the 1966 Act, is that it is possible for the council to decide to sell that land, because that is what the 1966 Act does. There\u2019s a process set out in section 4A(3) of that 1966 Act that requires some public hearings. But also, if the council is to decide to sell any land then of course the Local Government Act 2002 provisions, Part 6 around consultation\u2014and if it\u2019s a significant asset, other processes apply as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo we might ask: why would the council want to sell the land? And they might not. This gives them an opportunity. It gives them an opportunity to explore housing and potential housing development. We\u2019ve heard that this is a good location for housing. There\u2019s lots of other green protected space near it. It\u2019s good proximity to town, right next to a high school. So it\u2019s a great central location. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EBut again, that can\u2019t happen immediately\u2014any housing on this site\u2014because there\u2019s still resource management processes that would need to happen and amendments, I think, to the district plan to allow for that housing. So, of course, that would all be public processes that the community would be able to be involved in should the council decide that they do want to go ahead with some sort of housing and to be able to sell that housing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard from the member from Palmerston North that, in fact, the council is going to go through some change at this election that will be happening next month\u2014because it\u2019s September now. So it\u2019s totally up to the council about what they might want to do. But of course, housing is very important to both local and national politicians.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo I would like to briefly thank the staff from the Department of Conservation that we had working with us on this and, of course, all of the select committee staff as well. Really, it\u2019s a great example of a local MP working with their council to provide for the needs of the local community. Thank you, Madam Speaker. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00226d49e93b885e4c3c9c734d557499ba73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d49e93b885e4c3c9c734d557499ba73\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. My friend and colleague Ian McKelvie has given a very good analysis of this bill at its third reading. I\u2019ve had an opportunity to speak in the first reading, second reading, during the committee of the whole House, and at the Environment Committee on this bill, so there\u2019s not much more to say. But I think that the point Ian McKelvie raised about legacy legislation that dates back in some cases to the 1800s is an issue that this House will actually have to address at some point, not just for matters relating to Palmerston North but for a whole range of other bespoke pieces of legacy legislation that were passed by our predecessors decades and decades ago and that now are no longer suitable or fit for purpose. Then the only mechanism available to address those matters is redress by amending legislation through this House, and that raises questions about the efficiency of doing so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EBut I want to congratulate the member who has been sponsoring this bill, the Palmerston North MP Tangi Utikere. He\u2019s managed the process thoroughly and he\u2019s been successful working with the council and the select committee and the Parliament in a way that his predecessors have not been able to be successful. So kudos to both the Palmerston North City Council and to Tangi Utikere for their stewardship of this piece of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a common-sense, sensible little piece of legislation. There\u2019s nothing contentious about it. But the only point that I would make in summary is that it does, I think, highlight a larger issue that confronts the House with historic legacy legislation, bespoke pieces of legislation, that apply to councils, district councils, reserves, and racecourses, as Ian McKelvie indicated. There are a lot of those pieces of legislation, and I think that at some point this House maybe needs to consider some kind of streamlined methodology for addressing those issues. We on this side of this House are pleased to support the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb1fac4856df4a058546e0f6a28d129f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb1fac4856df4a058546e0f6a28d129f\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E M\u014Drena, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to take a call on the Palmerston North Reserves Empowering Amendment Bill. May I just begin by congratulating my colleague Tangi Utikere on his stewardship of this important bill through the House. As he has mentioned, it is unusual to have local and private bills come through the House, but they are a very useful way for our councils and for local organisations to bring important legislation through so that they can achieve their objectives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve had the opportunity to take a few calls on this bill; in fact, I\u2019ve asked to take calls on this bill. Why is that? The reason is that I had the pleasure of growing up in Palmerston North. I moved there at the age of nine years old. Funnily enough, people often ask me where I am from and where I grew up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022430ce9ff451849308d7ef014c0930e72\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Where did your parents meet?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022734c6df2478049ddab7cec49373bb1a4\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: I can tell you, my parents met here in Wellington at Victoria University. They both had travelled to the Pacific, actually, with Volunteer Service Abroad. So that\u2019s how they met. Great question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI was born in Timaru and had the pleasure of moving around the motu with my father who was working in senior health roles, becoming the chief executive of Palmerston North Hospital, and I think he opened a few buildings there. So we\u2019re a hospital-building family, my family\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226423368ebd884b7fa77a46d37ea2788f\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: And it continues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a78c4b5263a8478d9e7498cd75fad9dd\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and it continues: Nelson will be next. So, having said that, I moved there when I was nine, and moved away when I was 18. Interestingly, actually, Nelson, where I\u2019m pleased to be the local MP, is the place I\u2019ve actually lived the longest. So I very much am very proud to be a Nelson local and for Nelson to be my home town, but I call Palmerston North my second home town, because my parents and most of my siblings still reside in Palmerston North\u2014although, quite a few of them have moved just to the outskirts of Palmerston North and they\u2019re now in Mr McKelvie\u2019s electorate. So we have many family connections around this particular bill and with members of this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EWhat the bill does is it allows the council to go through a process and then consider and then potentially sell or divest the land. I think that\u2019s an important point to make: that it doesn\u2019t automatically mean that the sale or the divestment of the land will happen; the council still does have to go through a consultative process with its community to make that decision, and that\u2019s a good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EOther speakers this morning and in previous readings have talked about the amenity value of where this piece of housing sits\u2014well, potential piece of housing sits; I\u2019ll just clarify that. People have mentioned that it\u2019s close to local schools, including my high school, Palmerston North Girls\u2019 High School. I used to cycle down Huia Street, which is just a small little street. If I was running late for school that would be the way we would try and avoid getting a detention. But there was a particular teacher there\u2014anyone from Palmerston North, listening in, will remember Mrs Farrelly\u2014Mrs Farrelly waiting at the little piece of Huia Street. One morning, she caught me coming in late, trying to avoid getting picked up, and I ended up in detention at lunchtime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s an excellent piece of land, in my opinion, for housing, because it has excellent amenity value; it would score very highly. It\u2019s right next to the botanical gardens, the Lido swimming pool; and, as Mr Utikere mentioned, the Victoria Esplanade Gardens. I\u2019ll just note from Tripadvisor that someone a few years ago said, \u201CThese luxurious gardens really are a gem and sometimes underrated by the locals and missed by visitors.\u201D So I\u2019m just putting on the record\u2014anyone doing their research on where to visit in Palmerston North, I\u2019ve had friends who\u2019ve been married there; it\u2019s a beautiful place\u2014I encourage people to visit the esplanade gardens. There\u2019s also, nearby, a miniature train loved by my nephews and nieces and secretly loved by my brothers and sisters, who I think sometimes take their children on the train not so much for their children\u2019s enjoyment but for their own.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ef70db522674c38922f7f3ae2927552\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Is it free?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fa75d40ad83474695592d7e5d521287\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, look, I\u2019d need to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bdfd0577665418e8d326b6d242eeca7\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: No, but it\u2019s cheap.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221accd36a47c34ec9b6f18cc566c81688\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, Mr Utikere says \u201Ccheap\u201D. I\u2019m not sure if it\u2019s quite a dollar, as Kieran McAnulty\u2019s train is in the Wairarapa, but it\u2019s certainly not an expensive outing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EAlso, Huia Street is very close to the Manawat\u016B River and Fitzherbert Park, where I have many recollections of doing athletics on rainy days, which was never a particularly fun experience. And, as others have mentioned, there is a bridge leading across to the Rangit\u012Bkei River, which I actually haven\u2019t had the opportunity to use yet; so next time I\u2019m home, I\u2019ll make a point of doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EMr Utikere also mentioned the Square. I\u2019d forgotten, in previous speeches, the importance of the Square to Palmerston North. When I was a teenager and when we had nothing to do, what we would do is drive around and around the Square. It used to annoy the local police no end. Boy racers, of which I was not one\u2014just saying\u2014but I may have had a couple of friends that were, drove around and around the Square. The police would do a very good job of driving around and around the Square so slowly that they would annoy those drivers wanting to go very, very fast.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EAs I said, this piece of land has very high amenity value. It\u2019s also very close to public transport. It\u2019s within walking distance to the local mall, the plaza, where I had my first job, at Christmas, dressing up as an elf, wrapping Christmas presents. It was a fantastic job at the Palmerston North plaza. So people living in any housing that may be built on this reserve will be able to walk to The Plaza to do their shopping.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EIn previous readings, there\u2019ve been comments made by many speakers about the care we need to take around removing reserve land off the books of a council, either through sale or divestment. We do need to take care. Some have noted that we don\u2019t need any process, we should just allow councils just to do that off their own steam; others have said we shouldn\u2019t potentially do it at all. My view\u2014and, I think, where the bill strikes the right balance\u2014is being very pragmatic about saying, yep, the council has determined they would like to be able to do this, they\u2019ve brought it to Parliament where it\u2019s been scrutinised, and then to do that, they would still need to go through a robust consultation process. So I think it\u2019s really struck the right balance. It\u2019s not making the council able to do just sell the land willy-nilly; there still has to be a process to go through in order to consider it for housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EPeople have mentioned, today and in previous speeches, that a similar version of this bill was brought to the House in previous years and it was ultimately withdrawn. One of the reasons why it was withdrawn was there had been a lack of consultation. So there was concern from the community that meant when it did come through to the House, it probably didn\u2019t have enough of that backing from local people to bring it here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI spoke to my stepfather after the first reading because he actually held a role that Tangi Utikere held, he was the Deputy Mayor of Palmerston North City Council when this bill came forward the first time. I happened, actually, after the first reading, to head back to my second home of Palmerston North, and my stepfather was very pleased to hear that it had come back before the House; he had been quite frustrated about the process. It has been a piece of land that has been underutilised that is a perfect piece of land, in my view, for there to be housing. So I do just want to acknowledge my stepfather, John Hornblow, who worked on this a while ago now. He will be very pleased to see this bill pass its third reading today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EOn that note, I just want to congratulate, again, my colleague, the excellent MP for Palmerston North, who I\u2019ve known since we were at intermediate school at Ross Intermediate, and thank him for his work on this bill; thank the select committee for their work; thank the officials who put in their time; thank all the submitters who took the time to submit on the bill; and, most importantly, thank Palmerston North City Council for their work on bringing this bill to the House. I know that they will, once it has passed its third reading, go through the appropriate process. It will be important for them to ensure there\u2019s good consultation with the community, including local iwi Rangit\u0101ne; I just want to acknowledge them and their role in this part of the motu. I know that if housing is developed there, it will make a real difference for families and people in Palmerston North who need good quality, affordable housing. That is what our objective is as a Government. So I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u0022b5d656a4d8b7493e883cc35d527b43f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b5d656a4d8b7493e883cc35d527b43f7\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green) (remote):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. Thank you. I\u2019m very pleased to take a short call on the Palmerston North Reserves Empowering Amendment Bill, and, like others, congratulate Tangi Utikere on getting this bill through and the work that he has done\u2014as the Hon Scott Simpson mentioned\u2014in providing really strong liaison and connection between the city council and the Environment Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EIt is only 1.6 hectares of land, this Huia Street Reserve, on the corner of Park Road and Fitzherbert Avenue. It is a prominent intersection close to the central city and just over five blocks from the Square. I have walked past it, I admired the trees on it, and I know that there has been some concern in Palmerston North about the land being sold. But, as others have mentioned, because this bill brings the 1.6 hectares under the Palmerston North Reserves Empowering Act, it then enables the council to make any decision about the use of the land. If it wants to sell it, it can, after a proper process and a formal resolution before the council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EIt is unusual for the Green Party to support the loss of public reserve land, because this land was set aside in 1876. That\u2019s almost 150 years ago. The fact that the land was set aside as reserve then has provided options for the council, and for us, today. We can\u2019t envisage how Palmerston North will develop\u2014the demands for recreation, the way work evolves, the way housing options evolve 150 to 200 years hence\u2014so public reserve land always provides options. I would be concerned by the Hon Scott Simpson\u2019s proposals that there be some streamlined legislation which fixes all of these little bits of reserve land, because that potentially reduces the options.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d25e5c43c53246c89df1fe6b5a8fc268\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Hon Eugenie Sage. Order! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022103c708411d54ad8bac8896e780d8b15\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE\u003C/span\u003E: The previous speaker Rachel Boyack referred to amenity values. Green spaces in our cities and towns are enormously important in providing areas of natural space, areas of open space, places to recreate, places to rest to the eyes. They absorb stormwater, they help reduce the demands on our stormwater system\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd57227f879c4be694b334c5d8430f5c\u0022\u003ET\u0101mati Coffey\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Speaker. Can the speaker hear us?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207066cd85d784d6ca17086429328f068\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: No, she cannot, unfortunately, because the earphones are not\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9f31a0604674a9190fb359471bda6e1\u0022\u003ET\u0101mati Coffey\u003C/span\u003E: Are not on\u2014of course. I was going to suggest that we gave her some time to be able to put her headphones on, but I understand the situation here. It\u2019s a bit of a catch-22. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ba08b2c8aff4d87be98702f55cb5a71\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3f7d45ac1054fdaa78e2102d415f5ab\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE\u003C/span\u003E: [Missing audio]\u2014abundant opportunities for recreation close by and the quite considerable green space close by and the central location of this site and its suitability for housing because of its connectivity to Massey University, and the girls\u2019 high school close by. So it is suitable for housing. But it is also a key decision that the council will make in consultation with the community about whether it wishes to sell it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWe do want, in the changes to the Resource Management Act (RMA), this whole issue of urban quality dealt with very carefully, because the decisions we make now can influence how cities and towns and rural areas develop 150, 200 years hence. We want to ensure that we do protect options. But this 1.6 hectares hasn\u2019t been used, and if the council decides to sell it in future, then the Palmerston North Reserves Empowering Act does require that any proceeds from the sale are used to acquire new reserves or are used to develop future reserves. So it is ensuring that any funds are used to protect those recreational values that people have enjoyed in the past on the tennis courts and their use of this reserve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s a bill that the Green Party is supporting, but do note that we do want to see in the wider RMA changes an ability for plans and councils, in their decisions, to recognise the really important areas of open space and trees and the other qualities that give a city liveability, pleasantness, and amenity values. This small area may be better used as housing, but that is certainly not a precedent for other areas of reserve being converted into buildings. But we do support this bill. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022585eb463a6164529ad7f4103f681f563\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022585eb463a6164529ad7f4103f681f563\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Kia ora. Before I call the next speaker, can I just remind every member that if we are to connect online remotely by computers, it is important to actually put the headphones on so that we can communicate with you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022 data-id=\u00221804f5ea2af649048216c122bd569b9d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221804f5ea2af649048216c122bd569b9d\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker, and thank you that I am able to rise to add to the contribution for this local bill. I also want to acknowledge and congratulate Tangi Utikere, the MP for Palmerston North, and also in his previous role, and I acknowledge the extensive work that he would have done in terms of the previous former role.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EAs we\u2019ve heard from other submitters before the House, this land, this bill of the Palmerston North Reserves Empowering Amendment Bill, is land that is surplus to requirements. The Palmerston North City Council have advised the complexities and as to why this matter has been brought to the Environment Committee and before the House. To enable the council to proceed with looking at its district plan of that area\u2014probably post - local government elections 2022\u2014it requires this bill to pass that amendment and for an option of the land to be put up for sale.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EPreviously, I was able to and had the opportunity with other members to put forward a contribution in the first reading. I was also able to learn a bit more because, not able to do a site visit, I\u2019ve had to rely on Google and IT for specifications and the characteristic of this land. So as part of my research, I saw online that it is a prime location. I would have to describe it as one of those pieces of land that has had a huge use in past history, because what we do know is that in the last century, it was the Wellington Reserves Act 1876 and the amendment Act of 1877, and it\u2019s governed by the Reserves Act 1977.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EIn my former life as a locally elected council member, right across the motu there are a number of pieces of land that when the public or the council don\u2019t have further use for it, it actually becomes quite unloved and it becomes an eyesore and then it becomes, actually, a tug of war with the public and community groups and the council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EThe issues that it presents is that if it becomes unloved\u2014the eyesore part of it\u2014it\u2019s quite sad, and for this piece of land to be in a prime location, it\u2019s actually important, with Kiwis right across Aotearoa requiring accommodation. It then goes back to the council\u2014what are you going to actually do in terms of investment? So as part of the process and understanding how it fits into current legislation and the non-ability of the council to sell the land, it makes it really difficult in terms of planning requirements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EThe position of my contribution is when you don\u2019t have the mechanism, when you don\u2019t have the Act that doesn\u2019t allow the council to realise its plans, it actually becomes quite difficult and really hard for the elected members because you\u2019re stuck between\u2014sorry for the phrase\u2014a rock and a hard place. What is important, though, is that it\u2019s in a prime location. It\u2019s in a location\u2014from what I saw on Google\u2014that could actually be developed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EOne of the requirements post this process is that in planning requirements, as typology of housing is going upwards, councils and communities want really good options for housing close to amenities, and\u2014I understand and I saw that part of the urban sprawl time\u2014we have to move forward. This bill will enable that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003ESo I do want to congratulate and thank the Palmerston North City Council, who have submitted this before the Environment Committee. I wasn\u2019t a member of the Environment Committee, but I do understand that because of the way Aotearoa is moving forward, Kiwis need accessibility to housing, and the Palmerston North City Council would have viewed that and required the legal tools, and then to go back and allow, through its processes, the normal steps, particularly around consultation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EI would like to thank the submitters. I understand that those who were for probably had a strong intent to have good housing options that are close to amenities, recreation reserves, shopping centres, and the like, and they want options that are affordable, which is what this Government supports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EI also want to point out that I wasn\u2019t a member of the Environment Committee, but I am really pleased that I\u2019m part of the process at this point in time, and just for the residents who aren\u2019t supporting the bill, one of the things with local government elections and local councils is it\u2019s really important for local councils to help the residents and businesses and the youth understand why they make decisions and how they make decisions. I think to empower the Palmerston North City Council, it requires this bill, and, as many of my colleagues know, local councils are really focused on making planning decisions around infrastructure, around community facilities, and around assets like stormwater.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EBut one of the things that residents always want is they want to understand: how do they get involved and who is going to listen to them through that particular process\u2014specifically if they\u2019re not happy. So part of the consultation process that Palmerston North City Council will undertake is post this process, as the bill goes through the House and is supported, and I thank the colleagues on that side of the House. It\u2019s really understanding that local authority\u2019s framework.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003ESo I haven\u2019t visited the site, but I\u2019m very pleased that a number of my colleagues have clearly spelt out how valuable this land is and also the close proximity that it has, in terms of the information about its location, and the attractiveness of this land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EThe bill in its current form is pretty straightforward, as we\u2019ve heard in other contributions, and it\u2019s also been nearly two years\u2014since November 2020, I understand\u2014when the council put forward their option of the Huia Street Reserve. What is important is, as we work across the motu and as we build our communities, we want our communities to be resilient. We want to look after our old people, we want to look after our young people, and we want to be in part of the community that, actually, is not an eyesore.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EThis legislation provision is needed. It is the first step in the process, and I\u2019m very pleased to hear that the Environment Committee agreed unanimously. Then, when the bill is passed, it goes back to Palmerston North City Council and I think that they really have to look at this and really understand what the communities, both for and against, are requiring for their community through the consultative process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EMy last point is just that COVID has really challenged all of us across the motu. We have seen those who can afford and those who cannot afford housing. So as part of the empowering of the council, this bill, when it goes through the House, the members of that community can be empowered in terms of the council really wanting to listen\u2014so not pre-empting\u2014but that it allows the mechanism to be there as the bill is passed, and then the next steps, post - local government elections 2022.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EI just want to conclude by thanking the members of the Environment Committee. I also thank the submitters, and say thank you to the officials that enabled this work and especially my colleague the MP Tangi Utikere for his work. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022b874aa9a376c44e581dcf7fd1bcc23f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b874aa9a376c44e581dcf7fd1bcc23f8\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E ACT will support this bill because it removes a regulatory barrier to using land more efficiently. Now, imagine if the Labour Government spent as much time giving their emotional support to other ways to slash red tape and to get rid of regulation that stops people from using their land how they want to. But that\u2019s not what they\u2019re doing. That\u2019s not what the resource management reform will deliver. That\u2019s not what tax reform is needed. But what we\u2019re hearing is that Palmerston North City Council needs this bill so they can change the way they use their land, and the ACT Party supports that. What we\u2019d also support is getting on with the remainder of the House\u2019s businesses, on this members\u2019 day, rather than wasting time waxing lyrical about how much you all love Palmerston North. I\u2019m a big fan of Palmy in the Manawat\u016B, Massey University, centre of excellence for agricultural economics and environmental science\u2014love Palmy, just want them to get on with it. We\u2019d love Labour to get on with members\u2019 day. ACT supports this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002229bad4547a0e446ca4f198637d850998\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002229bad4547a0e446ca4f198637d850998\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: I call on Angie Warren-Clark. The next call is a split call\u2014five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022 data-id=\u0022802a17b8a2724bbdb6bad0e76bc9792b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022802a17b8a2724bbdb6bad0e76bc9792b\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, Madam Speaker. I didn\u2019t understand that I was on a split call. However, that\u2019s fine. I will just do five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224caa1e0210c949469e092551e255300c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: My apologies. The split call is the next call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223431b2bd5c5341cdba20df18959373bf\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. First and foremost, I\u2019d just like to acknowledge the very short speech from the member who\u2019s just resumed his seat, Simon Court. Sounds like he had a really sore throat, so I\u2019m hoping that you are well, Mr Court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EI want to stand and make a contribution to this bill, and I am quite delighted. I really enjoy sitting in select committee where we are all in agreement and we work our best to make a good bill even better. In this case, we didn\u2019t need to do much\u2014in fact, we didn\u2019t make any changes to the bill, but we certainly completely covered the issue, I believe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003ESo the Palmerston North Reserves Empowering Amendment Bill\u2014look, we\u2019ve heard from the other members in the House about what this bill does. I would like to first and foremost acknowledge Tangi Utikere, the member for Palmerston North, who is the sponsor of this local bill and\u2014as we have heard\u2014previously the Deputy Mayor of Palmerston North. So he has a full and thorough understanding of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003ENevertheless, I do want to also make the point that this is a local bill. So he has brought this bill as the member, but it is not his piece of legislation that he brings to the House. An important distinction, I believe, that needs to be reiterated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003ESo Palmerston North, Papaioea, Palmy, is the topic that we are talking about today. I Googled, \u201CWhat is special about Palmerston North?\u201D because I did admit in the second debate that I had only visited once and had attended the Fitzroy Tavern, which is no longer there. So what is special about Palmerston North, besides the very good member, of course?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EThe catch phrase is, \u201CPalmerston North has what it takes to exercise body and mind.\u201D So I thought, \u201CWell, that sounds very cool, and in fact there is a whole pile of really exciting things that you can do in Palmerston North,\u201D which I won\u2019t traverse. Nevertheless, I would just like to point out that point number six of the 10 things was the food and the cafe lifestyle. So that was a bit more of me than the activities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003ESo what does this bill do? I think it\u2019s important to talk about what this bill does. Currently, as we know, there is certain land held under the Palmerston North Reserves Act 1922, the former Act, and land under this Act cannot be sold. The council wishes to be able to sell this land for development if it becomes surplus to council requirements. This bill provides the mechanism for this by amending the Palmerston North Reserves Empowering Act 1966, which is the principal Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003ELook, this bill has six clauses, and clause 4 and clause 5 are the most relevant. In fact, clause 4 tells us the purpose: to be able to sell. Clause 5: the effect of the amendment is that the land described in Schedule 5 is vested in the council and it is no longer subject to the provisions of the former Act, which is the Palmerston North Reserves Empowering Act 1966.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EIt is 1.6 hectares of land. Known, as we have heard, as the Huia Street Reserve, located on the corner of Fitzherbert Ave and Park Road in Palmerston North. There are four parcels of land: lots 1 to 4. Lots 3 and 4, and a bit of lot 2\u2014just a bit of lot 2\u2014are leased to a tennis club on a 10-year lease with another 10-year right of renewal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003ESo the community has been talking about this piece of land for quite some time. For many years, in fact, we have heard about the legislation that was attempted to be brought through in 2007, which didn\u2019t pass. We have heard, also, about the drone footage that we\u2019ve seen of the site, and we also heard from a number of submitters. We had 29 submissions and eight oral submitters speak to us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EI think the important thing there was, we were lucky to have drone footage because people were quite confused as to where this land was and what the areas were. I think it was important that\u2014and I\u2019m not sure how it works\u2014so we\u2019ve put it into Hansard that there is drone footage, but I\u2019m not sure how that actually gets transcribed or put or whether, in fact, there is in any way that technology and Hansard can reflect where we\u2019re talking about. I suspect we don\u2019t quite have that capability and it will have to be the legal description of the lots added in there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003ESo we did have the drone footage; it is really clear that this is quite a useful piece of land. It is covered as a reserve and I acknowledge the Hon Eugenie Sage\u2019s contribution where she talked about, you know, making sure that reserve land doesn\u2019t just disappear and the point being made that there will be, if this land is sold, some opportunities to go back to a recreational purpose for the sale of this land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EI want to just talk a little bit about the history of Palmerston North for a moment. In 1866\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c66a4eb251e4826915e3dceafd2e7d8\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Must you?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fbee1c6c8794a8b80bf73b7a6323910\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: The members across the other side are suddenly very interested; I\u2019m pleased to see that. In 1866, Palmerston North was founded, but\u2014sorry, I should say Palmerston was founded. Fascinating fact for you all here in the House today, because I know you\u2019re fascinated about this: in 1873, the word \u201CNorth\u201D was inserted. That is because we have a Palmerston in the South Island, and it is incredibly important\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bb326118dfd41e5b74f4c59b8c8ba19\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ian McKelvie)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! I\u2019d just ask the members on my left to listen very carefully to this. This is very important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022109997121cec45dcbf0baa3e49f0c2fb\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. So the word \u201CNorth\u201D was inserted. Fascinating quip. In fact, I won\u2019t tell you about the time when we first had an exchange in \u014Ckaihau, where I grew up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5e4963f12694b2fa03a271783f8582b\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: You just did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ea53e704dac49bf84bb34456b40933f\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: OK, I will then. Well, we had the new dial-tone phones instead of the ring phones, and we rang Palmerston instead of Palmerston North and spoke to someone for quite some time and then realised it was the wrong person. Anyway\u2014I know that was a funny story. I digress. Right, back to Palmerston North. In 1930, Palmerston North became a city. I think that that\u2019s quite interesting, given that I\u2019ve not visited this place and perhaps I should. We have\u2014well, besides the pub, of course. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019d just also like to note there is a little bit of controversy around Palmerston North and the term \u201CPalmy\u201D. Now, some of you here will know that Palmerston North is known as \u201CPalmy\u201D, and in fact there is a huge controversy about this. So, in fact, the local council has said that their long-term plan is the Palmy 2021-31 long-term plan, and people are up in arms about that, and rightly so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003ESo back to the bill. Quite clearly, we have an election coming up for councillors in the city. This bill simply enables the possibility of sale for this land. It\u2019s important that people in Palmerston North go to vote, to make their wishes clear around this so the elected members will make this decision going forward. It\u2019s incredibly important that people pay attention to this matter if they think it needs to be addressed. And with that, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022f06f3299b1404f6a9aa065c1b00b4a7c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f06f3299b1404f6a9aa065c1b00b4a7c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ian McKelvie)\u003C/span\u003E: I call Stuart Smith. I understand it\u2019s a five-minute call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e334eae202614d629817591ebb67718b\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Awww!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u00224fc52690c5cc4c44835359b3d8ca0820\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224fc52690c5cc4c44835359b3d8ca0820\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I\u2019ll deal with that disappointment afterwards. But it is the first day of spring and this is the Southern Hemisphere\u2019s equivalent of the month of the mad March hares, and we have seen quite a bit of it in the House this morning. I have to say, it\u2019s very odd that the Government would have an extended sitting and then seek to pad out every speech as long as possible. It seems very odd. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EBut I do want to acknowledge Tangi Utikere, who is responsible for this bill. I hadn\u2019t been on the Environment Committee much at all, and I managed to have a chat with him last night about the features of the bill. I think he covered it very well in his speech, but I will note some alarming trends that were coming from the other Labour speakers. There must be a few jobs going in the Palmerston North i-SITE. We\u2019ve heard everything that\u2019s going on in Palmerston North. I think a few people are looking at the polls and thinking, \u201CI\u2019d better get a job lined up for next year.\u201D I think that\u2019s pretty clear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EBut, actually, the most interesting thing that has come up during this debate is\u2014well, highlighted for me, anyway\u2014that the hybrid House has come to an end. We should not be using that any more. It was a debacle in that speech, and I think we have to realise in New Zealand that the rest of the world has moved on. We\u2019re one of the few places in the world where we have to wear masks, and I think it\u2019s about time that the Government grew up and changed their mind on this. With that, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022 data-id=\u00220480ed7b0bf74dd39dc9e6a2a2cefdd4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220480ed7b0bf74dd39dc9e6a2a2cefdd4\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ian McKelvie)\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I call Anahila Kanongata\u2018a-Suisuiki, I\u2019ll just remind you. I know there\u2019s only a short time to go in this debate, and I know the bill\u2019s a very brief bill. I know it\u2019s very difficult to stretch it to 10 minutes, but please keep as close to the bill as you can. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022 data-id=\u0022f983e2f65f4e4aeeb118798edcd7bd96\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f983e2f65f4e4aeeb118798edcd7bd96\u0022\u003EANAHILA KANONGATA\u2018A-SUISUIKI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora e te Mana Whakaw\u0101. It is always a privilege and an honour to stand and make a contribution in this House. I would like to acknowledge the member Tangi Utikere for bringing the Palmerston North Reserves Empowering Amendment Bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003EMr Speaker, I know you\u2019ve said that we need to keep to the bill, but I just want to acknowledge that in the weekend I attended The Big Sing, which is 24 of the best choirs in New Zealand. It\u2019s called The Big Sing\u2014choral choirs\u2014and it relates to Palmerston North because out of the 24 choirs, the OK Chorale, which has been going for 24 years, the Palmerston North Boys\u2019 High School choir, won silver. But not just that; they were chosen as the best ambassadors out of those 24 choirs in New Zealand. So that goes to show the upbringing of the people of Palmerston North, and I want to acknowledge the musical director, Graeme Young, who has been a director for the last 25 years. I hope to attend on 27 October their big finale in Palmerston North\u2014no guarantees that I will attend. But, anyway, I just thought that it needed to be shared in the House that out of the 24 choirs, Palmerston North were the ambassadors who were chosen by the events directors because they were well behaved on and off the stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003EAnyway, back to the bill. So what does this bill do? Well, currently the Huia Street Reserve is part of three Acts, which are the Wellington Reserves Act of 1876 and the amended Act of 1877, the Palmerston North Reserves Act of 1922, and the Reserves Act of 1977. What this bill does is it removes the Huia Street land from under the above three Acts and it will instead be held under the Palmerston North Reserves Empowering Act of 1966. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003EI know that members have referred to Palmerston North being founded in the 1800s, but prior to that the local iwi, one of many\u2014actually, the tangata whenua of that land, we were advised, is the local iwi Rangit\u0101ne o Manawat\u016B. So at the Environment Committee we had asked if there are other settlements in play in case this land comes under them, and what we were informed is that, currently, there are no current settlements where this land, Huia Street\u2014well, there\u2019s no current settlements. However, in 2016 the Rangit\u0101ne iwi had settled, and what I am told by the member Tangi Utikere, who\u2019s passionate about Palmerston North, and by yourself, Mr Speaker, is that Rangit\u0101ne o Manawat\u016B actually has a good relationship in the local area. Members have alluded, as I did in my previous contributions, to the Square\u2014it\u2019s about the \u201CDaughter of Peace\u201D, about the Square in Palmerston North. So we can learn a thing or two about local relationships with local iwi in Palmerston North that provides a positive relationship. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard that housing is a problem and not enough was built by past Governments\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284fd66b2ac144095a73d4142d2af75d1\u0022\u003ESimon Watts\u003C/span\u003E: Ah, that\u2019s not true\u2014that\u2019s not true. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a03940f1e4e4ac4a26f16ae38df79d2\u0022\u003EANAHILA KANONGATA\u2018A-SUISUIKI\u003C/span\u003E: But what we are\u2014not enough were built by past Governments. So the proposal for this land on this site is that it may look at medium-density building where families\u2014like I\u2019ve noted before about those brilliant ambassadors from Palmerston North Boys\u2019 High School, that if they should decide to reside in Palmerston North, the homes that will be built on the Huia Street Reserve will be there for them, should they choose to remain in Palmerston North, unlike some of our members who have left and gone to Nelson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003EI just I want to acknowledge you, Mr Speaker, and Tangi Utikere for being good ambassadors for Palmerston North. You\u2019ve come to this place and you\u2019ve shown that it is a place that you\u2019re passionate about, and some of us could use your passion as an example for how we should demonstrate our behaviour to the areas which we belong to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003ELast but not least, I want to take this opportunity again to congratulate Palmerston North Boys\u2019 High OK Chorale for their ambassadorship at The Big Sing in Christchurch in the weekend. On that note, I commend this bill to the House. M\u0101l\u014D \u2019aupito.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022e967a9ac8500474dab792b6a553a9d1a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e967a9ac8500474dab792b6a553a9d1a\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I rise as the member of Parliament for North Shore and as a member of the National Party to talk on the Palmerston North Reserves Empowering Amendment Bill. I support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022 data-id=\u0022585430a965ca453da10ff30d4e3ac91b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022585430a965ca453da10ff30d4e3ac91b\u0022\u003ET\u0100MATI COFFEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E That was a lightning-fast contribution just then; I wasn\u2019t prepared for it. But you know what? We\u2019ve had enough of a warm-up this morning about the Palmerston North bill that I feel as though lots of ground has been covered, and I feel as though we fully understand the reasons why this bill has come to the House. I just wanted to point out that, actually, many places around the country\u2014many of our own cities and towns that we come from\u2014have got our own version of the Huia Street Reserve. We\u2019ve all got that place that\u2019s been sitting on the corner, on the intersection, that, actually, hasn\u2019t been developed and the council have talked about turning into housing, and that some members of the community have said, \u201CNo, no, leave it as it is.\u201D. But this is really important, because it builds on the work that\u2019s happened in Palmerston North in regards to housing development.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EI want to just touch on a visit that we paid to the Palmerston North electorate where, actually, we got to Papaioea Place. It\u2019s right that I say \u201CPapaioea\u201D, because today is the start of M\u0101ori Language Month, and for those people who don\u2019t know, Te Papaioea is actually the M\u0101ori name for Palmerston North, and it\u2019s the name that they gave to the development there, and it was a council initiative, but, again, passionate about wanting to create housing opportunities. They cleared a section of land which used to have a small number of council houses on there. They cleared that, and they made way for the most colourful housing development that you\u2019ve ever seen\u2014small little box houses which are warm, safe, dry accommodation for the people who live inside those places. Two bedrooms at the most in many of them\u2014but, actually, building a real community in there, and it is a much better and more efficient use of the land than previously they had there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EThe Huia Street Reserve is going to be one of those places too, where, in due time, the council has signalled that after it gets handed back to them, they\u2019ll go through a consultation process and the intention is to be able to use it for housing. So I encourage them in their journey to be able to create more housing for our communities to be able to continue down that line.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EOn that same trip as well, we went to Te Ahu a T\u016Branga, which is the joint project that\u2019s happening to be able to, you know, create a better option for the Manawat\u016B Gorge. It\u2019s been fraught over many years, the accessibility in that place, and with the recent weather events that we\u2019ve had in Nelson and the Far North, actually, we know that we need better transport solutions as well. In a nutshell, I\u2019d like to say that Palmerston North is cracking along really nicely, and supported, obviously, by a really passionate council who are passionate about housing as well, so we share their aspirations on that front.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EAt the committee of the whole House stage, there were a few issues raised, and one of those issues was why is Parliament even spending its time on this. And while it might seem quite an obvious question to outsiders, actually, what we know inside the political system that we operate in is that this was a piece of legislation, and when it becomes legislation it needs to be corrected, fixed, amended by the House. This isn\u2019t something that can just happen, you know, by the stroke of a pen in a ministerial office; it actually needs the consent of the House to be able to progress. So we haven\u2019t been able to achieve it by the stroke of a pen from the Minister for Land Information, which was suggested in the committee of the whole House stage, and that\u2019s why we\u2019re spending our time on it, albeit, hopefully, not that much time; I understand I\u2019m the last speaker on this one, the third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge all the existing leases around the Huia Street Reserve as well. You\u2019ve got the high school that\u2019s there and also the tennis club, and the tennis club have their own existing lease. There was some concern about how any kind of development on that site would impact adversely on the tennis club. We heard from them, and we were able to give them reassurance through the process that, actually, their lease wouldn\u2019t be affected and we\u2019d be able to preserve their access, despite what was going on with the changes to the Huia Street Reserve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EIt is part of an important process that we go through this, because as many people said earlier, actually, the doing away with the reserve came from submissions\u2014people were concerned that we were losing green spaces. And it\u2019s really important when we have these conversations to note that we were really concerned with that, because we do need green spaces. If we\u2019re going to have medium-density developments around the country in our different towns and cities, we absolutely need access to that. It\u2019s something that London cottoned on to way back when. They knew that if they were going to have their two-storeyed houses, their brick wall-to-wall houses, they would absolutely need green spaces in that, so they created commons for local communities to be able to access those green spaces so they could go, they could have a break, they could enjoy the freedom and the breathability of a bit of open air. So we were concerned about. We had conversations about where the nearest green spaces were, and there\u2019s quite a lot around in the nearby area, in the nearby community, for families to be able to go and use, for families that may eventually end up living on the Huia Street development\u2014not too far if they want to go for a walk to a green space to throw a ball with the kids, to take the dogs for a walk, that kind of stuff that we want good developments to be able to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003ESo we were satisfied with that. We were also satisfied with the mana whenua situation as well. We wanted to make sure that we were doing a good job in running this by the local iwi: Rangit\u0101ne have their settlement and were made aware of this bill that was coming before us, but on top of that there was some concern that maybe there were other iwi that may have had interests in this bill as well. So we had to do a fair bit of due diligence with the likes of Te Arawhiti, who came in and gave us some advice on that process. It wasn\u2019t easy, but we had to trudge back through the history books and the maps to be able to find documentation about what the Huia Street Reserve looked like back in the day, and whether or not there was going to be some kind of adverse impact for iwi in the area. We landed on a position\u2014and this was endorsed by the local member\u2014that Rangit\u0101ne were indeed the right party to be consulting with. They had been made aware of this bill and what this bill looked to do, and we were satisfied through the process that it was the right thing to do to be able to move on. Having consulted with mana whenua, having consulted with the local community about green spaces, having consulted with the local tennis club about the impact that that was going to have for them, we as a committee were really satisfied that this was a really positive thing to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EThe insight that the member Tangi Utikere brings to this conversation as the local member for Palmerston North was incredibly important. There\u2019s nothing like a good bit of local knowledge, and I want to thank the member for bringing that local knowledge to the committee to be able to help us make those kinds of decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EThis is the kind of bill that\u2019s going to ensure that he holds the seat of Palmerston North for a very long time for the Labour Party, because what he\u2019s doing is he\u2019s signalling that he understands the local issues, he understands the need for housing in the city, and we need to make sure that, actually, he as the local member, who\u2019s in touch with his community, is able to get their support, and he will absolutely get their support through this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EI just want to finish off by saying that we did have some video footage\u2014we weren\u2019t, because of our COVID rules, able to make the trip to Palmerston North to be able to see the reserve. So for that I feel a little bit less of a person, but, you know what? We were shown very delicately edited videos, drone footage, of the reserve. We looked at maps. We trawled over different opinions and conversations with officials about what the reserve section looked like, and we were satisfied that, actually, it was the right thing to do, despite not being there to see it with our own eyes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003ESo this is a great piece of legislation. I thank the Labour member for Palmerston North. I look forward to him holding the seat for a very, very, very long time, and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e012822c854c4517a2f142839e4a8b38\u0022\u003EPlain Language Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c225406a8bb64edda86dc402f1ca7d8b\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce79d64d29b04aa8afc0e42da635b576\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce79d64d29b04aa8afc0e42da635b576\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Plain Language Bill be now read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s good to take the first call on the second reading of the Plain Language Bill. The bill has now been reported back from the Governance and Administration Committee. I particularly want to acknowledge the select committee, who did a lot of detailed work on the bill; officials from the Parliamentary Counsel Office; also the Public Service Commission, who provided extremely useful advice on the bill; and a good number of submitters, who submitted to the committee and have helped to make this bill a much better, more useful bill now that has been reported back from select committee. I\u2019m going to talk through a number of the changes that the select committee made, because they are numerous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EFirst, though, I do just want to note the importance of plain language in our public documents and, actually, in all documents. One of the pieces of information that experts on plain language often talk about is that for those of us who have the opportunity and privilege often to attend education institutes like universities, we often are trained to use academic language and to reach a word limit, and often we need to have that trained out of us when we go into the working world. That was my own experience in my first public sector role. As a young graduate, I had a communications role and was sent on a number of plain-language courses run by an organisation in Wellington called Write Ltd, who do an excellent job of training many public servants in Wellington and across New Zealand, and they\u2019re experts on plain language.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EWhat that\u2019s taught me was the importance of ensuring we think about the reader, we think about the person who is going to be reading that document and the importance of them being able to understand it. As an electorate MP, it\u2019s an issue that does come across my desk a lot. People will often bring forms in, letters from the Ministry of Social Development (MSD), from Immigration New Zealand, that are challenging for them to understand\u2014and particularly our migrant community. I\u2019ve also had situations where migrants have been sent emails that actually have had a life and death component to them, where they needed to exit from a dangerous situation and the documents were difficult for them to understand. It goes to the heart of this issue, which is that all citizens of New Zealand, or residents of New Zealand, should have the right to be able to understand what is being asked of them, and understand their rights and obligations as citizens and residents of this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m just going to take the House through a number of the changes that we made at select committee, just so that we can explain further how this bill has changed coming back at this point. Mr Speaker, while I know I wouldn\u2019t normally bring you into the debate, I do want to acknowledge you and your chairing of the committee and your role in these changes as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo, first of all, I\u2019ll begin with clause 4, which sets out what documents must use plain language. It was important to us that we were very explicit about which documents would be used and which ones wouldn\u2019t. One of the areas where we\u2019ve made it clear in the bill is that, for example, a document that would go through, say, a Cabinet process\u2014just because it was subject to the Official Information Act doesn\u2019t automatically make it a requirement for it to be in plain language. We\u2019re very clear that it was about the purpose of that document, in terms of the readers, and I\u2019ll just actually take the House through that particular section, in terms of what documents must use plain language.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo in the legislation, a document for which a reporting agency is responsible is a relevant document for the purpose of plain language if the document is in English\u2014although I\u2019ll make some commentary around that a little bit later\u2014and if the agency considers that the intended audience for the document is the public generally, rather than just one or more person. The document also provides information about what services are provided by or on behalf of a reporting agency, or information about how to obtain those services, including any document that is necessary to obtain any of those services or provides information about filing, registering, or lodging information with, or giving information to, a reporting agency, or explains to the public how to comply with a requirement that a reporting agency administers, enforces, or provides information to the public about a requirement that a reporting agency administers or enforces that may affect their rights or interests, or provides information as part of a public education initiative. We made a specific note in the bill that a department publishing on its internet site a guide to the services it provides would also be covered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo we also made a number of changes specifically around the definition of \u201Cplain language\u201D and how that will be achieved. One of the changes we made was that the definition talks specifically about recognised guidelines of plain-language writing. It\u2019s important I note in the second reading speech\u2014and I\u2019ll also raise it again in the committee of the whole House\u2014that we placed the obligations on defining those guidelines with the Public Service Commissioner. We\u2019ve put that role at that heart of those guidelines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EOne of the points that we\u2019ve noted as a committee is the importance of using internationally recognised definitions of plain language in putting those guidelines in place. One of the reasons that we\u2019ve done that specifically is that there is currently an International Organisation for Standardization (ISO) standard being developed internationally on what is plain language. So we\u2019ve written the bill in a way that when that ISO standard does make its way through that process and becomes an internationally accepted standard, the bill is written so that it enables the commissioner to reference that ISO standard. And that\u2019s the appropriate guideline to use once that standard has been fulfilled. I note that Write Ltd, who I mentioned earlier, have participated in the development of that ISO standard, so we will have New Zealand influence over it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo the other matter I just wanted to note around the commissioner\u2019s role is that the original bill said that the commissioner may issue guidelines. Actually, what the committee felt was that it was better for us to place the onus on the commissioner but that they must issue guidelines. So the commissioner must issue guidelines, but then we have given some more, I guess, room for the commissioner to be able to actually do that issuing of those guidelines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe other component we\u2019ve included is the importance of accessibility within those guidelines. We heard from a number of submitters from disability groups, who made us very good submissions about how important it is for them to understand information that they have access to. One of the examples I\u2019ll use\u2014and I\u2019ll just briefly mention that we made specific noting of template-type letters that are used, for example, to inform people of their rights and obligations\u2014and an obvious one, would be template letters that go out to people on behalf of the Ministry of Social Development. I had representation made to me by a constituent who is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220713b6b849ff406896a7abdd78ff5780\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Was it a submission or was it to you?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022251285f05e5344f4b4c35aa8e409462b\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014vision-impaired. Yes, Mr Brown, they did submit. What she explained to me was that there\u2019s a very basic use of a PDF template letter where you can allow it to actually read out information to you. It hadn\u2019t been implemented within a particular letter that she received, and, as a result, she couldn\u2019t read the letter. She rang MSD, spent a long time on hold, and MSD refused to read the letter out to her and told her she needed to get somebody to read it to her. All of this is a transaction cost that actually would have saved her and MSD a lot of time if she had been able to have a reader put on that. So it\u2019s one of the reasons why we\u2019ve said that the commissioner must include those accessibility guidelines for exactly that type of situation that presents itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI could speak for another few minutes on this because there\u2019s much more to say, so I\u2019m looking forward to further contributions. There are many more changes that the committee has made which I look forward to having deep discussion on during the committee of the whole House. I thank everyone for their participation in considering this bill, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00225741bb286b4d41acbeeb3e1d3d9bb4ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225741bb286b4d41acbeeb3e1d3d9bb4ad\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E Well, Mr Speaker, if there ever was a problem looking for a solution, this piece of legislation is exactly that. This is the Plain Language Bill, which I honestly thought the Labour Party would dump at the select committee, but here they are, standing up and talking about how important this piece of legislation is and how it\u2019s going to fix all the ailments and problems up and down the country. If only our Public Service departments and agencies were told from on high, from this Parliament, that they must issue plain language guidance to all the public servants out there to ensure that the letters, the documents, and the reports they write are in plain language! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EWell, this piece of legislation will not fix one single problem. In fact, it will create many more problems in New Zealand, and that is why the National Party opposes this legislation. We oppose it because there is no evidence that there is a problem to be solved, and it will only lead to more bureaucrats, more bureaucracy, and more control by the Government over our bureaucracy, which should be free from political influence. We know that these plain-language officers, which will be inserted into Public Service departments and agencies up and down the country, will turn into the language police of the Government of the day to ensure that the Government\u2019s messaging has more influence through the Public Service departments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ELet me just tell members that this is a Government that has already increased the Public Service by 14,000 more bureaucrats here in Wellington, costing $1.8 billion every single year in staff costs, and this bill will only mean more of these staff in the Public Service. This is a Government that only knows how to do three things: more tax, and we saw that with the KiwiSaver tax; more spending, and we see that with a 68 percent increase in spending under this Government in the last five years; and more bureaucracy\u2014this bill will cost more and add more bureaucracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EEvery single Public Service department will be required to have plain-language officers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e433db3e5c34c0488a44d98b29fa959\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: How much will they be paid?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e12c3b86d91475498d170b00b0acd12\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: We don\u2019t know how much they\u2019re going to be paid. We don\u2019t know how many plain-language officers they will be appointing. There are significant questions around the cost-benefit ratio that were not addressed at the select committee and which we do not have in the select committee report, and that is exactly how this Government operates. Cost-benefit analysis? Who cares? They want to look as if they\u2019re doing something and that\u2019s exactly what\u2019s happened here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThere were a number of submitters who I think made some excellent points in regard to this legislation. The New Zealand Law Society pointed out that there wasn\u2019t a cost-benefit analysis in the regulatory impact statement. There was a lack of a departmental disclosure statement, a regulatory impact statement, and a cost-benefit analysis. So we\u2019re passing a piece of legislation, we\u2019re identifying a problem, but we\u2019re not asking what the cost is, how many more staff will there be, and what actual benefits or outcomes we\u2019re going to achieve from it\u2014none of that stuff. Absolutely none of that stuff. This is exactly how the Labour Party governs New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe Legislation Design and Advisory Committee submitted that the policy objective was best achieved more effectively through non-legislative means. How many hours of parliamentary time, select committee time, have we been spending on a piece of legislation that literally just needs Ministers saying to their departments and agencies, \u201CCan you please make sure people can read your documents.\u201D? That\u2019s all that\u2019s needed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281f0f35f617d4d2d973539df29b41956\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Give us an example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9ea1405468b4b0bb514dd4aa04d00a4\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that was the KiwiSaver thing. The KiwiSaver flip-flop was in absolute un-plain language. There was no disclosure of that in the press release. This is a Government that decided they were going to try and slip that through without telling New Zealanders what was happening, and that was absolutely not clear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe other point I\u2019d like to make is that this piece of legislation is incredibly unclear in itself because it says, and even the committee acknowledged, that plain language is subjective in nature and open to interpretation. Unbelievable. Plain language is subjective in nature and open to interpretation. So whose definition of plain language are we talking about here? Is the Labour Party definition, is it the National Party definition, or is it the Green Party definition of plain language? That just shows exactly how ridiculous\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022498164046230424b89fbfc5b73b59a49\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: Hopefully, not the Greens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022024e697839b947bd96dc5699f347c62e\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it will end up being the Green Party. That\u2019s exactly what will happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to touch on another select committee change that came though. This is a Government that came into office in 2017 saying, \u201CWe think too much money\u2019s being spent on contractors and consultants. We need to re-establish the Public Service.\u201D, and so they grew the Public Service by 14,000 more bureaucrats, but they\u2019re also spending more money on consultants and contractors. One of the changes in the legislation is that the plain-language officers, in the original version, had to be appointed from within the department, but now they can come from without\u2014now they can be contractors and consultants. So the Government can now have contractors and consultants come into the Public Service departments to be the plain-language police that this Government wants to have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b106cb9b7b15456ca475cec79909a333\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: Trying to make jobs for themselves next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fafe94f7cff4707ba93acb8a78ae69d\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a very good point, Mr Mooney. Maybe the exact reason is the Labour Party is trying to find jobs for their backbench come the next election. They need jobs for their backbench come the next election. We\u2019ve seen the pressure build in that backbench as they know that 20 of them won\u2019t have a job after the next election, and so maybe this will be a job for them. Rachel Boyack could find a job. Maybe this is a job she could be looking for after the next election. Maybe it\u2019s a make-work scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EWhat we do know is that these plain-language police will become busybodies. Not only is plain language subjective in nature and open to interpretation but this well-intentioned\u2014possibly well-intentioned\u2014piece of legislation will lead to language police entering our Public Service departments and telling our Public Service what language they can use, what language they can\u2019t use, and we know that those who control the language control the minds, and that is exactly the intent behind this legislation. So while there may be good intentions on the surface, what\u2019s underneath is a sinister attempt to try and control language in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIf you look at how this bill works, the Government departments need to report to the Public Service Commission on how they\u2019re interpreting and using plain language in their departments. The Public Service Commission then needs to report to the Minister. This is all about centralisation of language and control, and that is on top of the 50 percent increase in communications staff that this Government has already employed across the Public Service departments. There are 50 percent more communications staff to propagate the Government\u2019s message out to New Zealanders, to tell New Zealanders what they want them to know. There are probably more comms staff than there are journalists in some of our major newspapers in New Zealand, and this is a Government that is adamant that they want to control more and more of the messaging. We\u2019ve seen the hundred-million dollars they\u2019ve given to the media, the media slush fund. We\u2019ve seen the significant number of communications staff, and now we\u2019re seeing plain-language officers being inserted in there as well. This is all about the Government wanting to control the messaging to New Zealanders more and more and that is the sinister underlying message of this piece of legislation, and it\u2019s another reason why the National Party cannot and will not support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe reality is that if New Zealanders had a choice today, if they had a choice as to what they think should be focused on in our Public Service, I think I know what they would choose. Would they choose more hip operations faster? Would they choose a police service that wants to crack down on crime? Do they want better educational standards so that their children can actually learn how to read and write and not have a plain-language officer to tell them what to do? Do they want a fire service that is able to respond to emergencies adequately with the right equipment and the right personnel? Do they need to have the potholes on our highways fixed in a timely manner so that our cars are not being damaged all the time? Or do we need plain-language officers in our Public Service departments?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EOur solution is: improve the outcomes. Focus the Public Service on the operations, the things that need to be done, and the outcomes that New Zealanders pay their taxes to see done. Get the potholes fixed. Make our Public Service work for New Zealanders. Fight the crime. Make sure our young people are getting the education they need. Make sure that our children can read and write. That\u2019s our solution. The Government\u2019s solution? Plain-language officers. Plain-language officers are all they\u2019ve got. After five years, all they\u2019ve got is more bureaucracy and plain-language officers. The National Party proudly stands opposed to this piece of legislation and the Government should just dump it in the bin where it belongs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022 data-id=\u002298d2311cdd05430fb531a9bc3e625eb5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298d2311cdd05430fb531a9bc3e625eb5\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ian McKelvie)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022 data-id=\u0022dfa5dfc516e7450fb49c6ed1cb37fa12\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dfa5dfc516e7450fb49c6ed1cb37fa12\u0022\u003ENAISI CHEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am extremely disappointed that the member who has just resumed his seat, Simeon Brown, did not spend one single minute in our select committee as we were considering this bill. As the Opposition spokesperson on this matter, I\u2019m really, really disappointed when you, Mr Speaker, have ably chaired the Governance and Administration Committee, we had gone through all of these details, giving so much attention, making sure we had investigated all of the issues he just talked about, but he chose to not show up and not participate in any of those conversations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003ECan I put it on record here that this bill will not necessarily create more positions in the public sector, but it is just putting the responsibility of making sure that we communicate correctly and clearly to the public that we actually serve, as a Government, and to make sure, in terms of the communication coming from each department, that there is someone\u2014who is probably already in a comms position at this moment\u2014who will actually use their time officially to make sure that there is a standardised approach to all of the public when each Government department or agency communicates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EAlso, there has been research from the United States that shows actually communicating in plain language will reduce the cost of human resource in terms of communicating with the public, as well. If you\u2019ve done it correctly the first time, you won\u2019t need to actually have to pick up the phone and then call the Government agency or department for clarification again. That is really, really simple math.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003ECan I just take it back to my own personal experience. I have spent four years in the District Courts of Auckland, being a court-appointed interpreter. In my daily job back at university, I could see how unclearly written English language was affecting our migrant community. Every day in my electorate office, I\u2019m having to translate\u2014reinterpret\u2014all of the documents on our Government websites that we have to actually do. There is so much more barrier that we have created without communicating clearly and efficiently to everyone. That\u2019s probably one of the parts of the select committee process that I really enjoyed having conversations with the submitters on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003ENot only is it our migrant community, those with English as their second language, those perhaps that we need translation services to do\u2014and, on that note, can I just also put on record as well that we heard submissions, and through my own experience as well, that if the original language was clear, succinct, and written in plain English and plain language, then actually the quality of translation improves as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EWe also were in conversation with those who were from the disability sector, as well\u2014those who needed, for instance, a screen reader. So being able to have websites with information clearly written that is not in convoluted ways of actually expressing ideas or giving instructions or explaining a process, accessibility to that information increases, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EAlso, I just remember from my days in the court, where if you actually gave statements in short, succinct sentences, more of the meaning gets conveyed through the interpreter. A lot of the time, we have agencies, for instance, like the Citizens Advice Bureau, who actually help a lot of our migrant communities, a lot of people within our communities that have learning disabilities and that have other disabilities that hinder them from being able to access that information themselves. But even if we have this bill in place, then the original context of which it is communicated in will actually help those who are the most vulnerable and most prevented from accessing that information in our community as well. It also cuts down the time of these services that are trying to help our communities who need translation services, so they can spend that time helping people who need other types of assistance in their lives, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003ECan I also just thank the officials, as well, who have worked with us on this bill, that have gone through all of those details we were talking about, making sure that, for instance, the Public Service Commission had the capability but also knew that they had the right legislative imperatives in place in this bill to make sure that they could do their jobs properly. We tested many different scenarios in terms of whether there would be a legal obligation, and we landed that there shouldn\u2019t but there should be a reporting within the public sector so that we could monitor the standard in which all public sector agencies communicate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EWe talked, for instance\u2014and I know Mr Woodhouse contributed to this\u2014in terms of personal or technical communication. Firstly, on the personal side, a letter to an individual, we decided not to put into this legislation, because we know that sometimes communication to an individual needed to be very, very specific, needed to lay out all of the details of their personal circumstances, and we needed our Public Service to be able to give them the right and the most accurate information possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EThe other one we had discussed in a lot of detail was actually the issuing of standard guidance. One particular industry sector that we had particularly used as an example was the immigration industry, where the office of Immigration New Zealand would be issuing standardised advice and directions for immigration consultants. We wondered whether communication to a class of immigration consultants would count as public communication. Through rigorous conversation and debate, I think, in the end, we landed that we would not include that in the bill, because we realised that we needed to issue very technical guidance, even though this advice was public, is published on the internet, that anyone else who might be clients of these advisers, who might be someone who was going through an immigration process themselves, had access to these documents, but we still decided that that needed to be of a level of technicality that we wouldn\u2019t include it in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EI think we had a discussion about the tax guidance, as well, that, yes, if it\u2019s on the website and it\u2019s intended for just the public, for normal laypeople, to read, then, yes, that would come under the bill and that would have to be written in plain language. However, if it was a specific piece of direction that was aimed at tax consultants, at accountants, at tax lawyers as well, that wouldn\u2019t be counted. So there would be a level of technicality that could still be communicated. Then, at the same time, if there was a criteria to judge that if this was open to communication to everyone else, that would be written in plain language.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EI also particularly enjoyed, in select committee, the conversation around whether te reo would be included in this bill. Te reo, obviously, as we all know, is an official New Zealand language, and so is sign language, but we did decide that we would not touch on te reo in this bill either, just to make sure that the English communication that the Government or the public sector provides to the public would be something that would be written in just plain English and that any other te reo words or te reo phrases that happens in Government communications would not fall under this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003ECan I also touch on the last point, which is that I think, throughout this whole entire conversation\u2014indeed, so far in the debate\u2014one phrase that has resonated in my mind is that communication is an art. We as politicians should know that better than anyone else\u2014that clear, concise communication is good for everyone in terms of whether we are conveying information or we\u2019re conveying a message. In our communities, there are lots and lots of people who need us to communicate clearly for them. Just as my colleague Rachel Boyack has said, as well, it\u2019s sometimes a matter of life and death that we actually need the website; we need our public servants to be communicating clearly so that not only is it a matter of accessibility and it\u2019s a matter of equity but, at the same time, it\u2019s a matter of efficiency, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003ESo this bill will benefit everyone in terms of cost savings, in terms of efficiency, in terms of that emotional stress of, even though you might be reading it, not understanding. If you have English as a second language, as, I know, in my family, many of my family have, then, in that situation, this bill will be really, really helpful. So I would invite all members of this House to come into the shoes of our community and to understand how important this bill is for us. So, on that note, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022c776dcd5aaa74ceeb57cef5aa8d1f9fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c776dcd5aaa74ceeb57cef5aa8d1f9fe\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Let me speak with extremely plain language. This bill is the stupidest bill to come before Parliament in this term. National will repeal it. And I can\u2019t believe we are down here on Thursday morning debating this waste of time bill. I actually feel sorry for Rachel Boyack, because she is a conscientious and diligent member of Parliament and she has had this ridiculous, jobsworthy, stupid bill landed on her and she\u2019s had to shepherd it through. I actually assumed\u2014I think most of us assumed\u2014at its first reading, whatever it was, that it would go off to the Governance and Administration Committee and would never see the light of day ever again. It would just be quietly discharged from the Order Paper, quietly done away with, and we\u2019d just forget that Parliament had wasted all of its time debating the first reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EBut, no, here we are again. I can\u2019t believe it. I just can\u2019t fathom it. Here we are again. And poor old Rachel Boyack. And the Labour backbenchers are sitting there going, \u201CThere but for the grace of God go we, because what if I end up with a similarly stupid bill?\u201D They\u2019re all sitting there\u2014Anna Lorck and Helen White and Sarah Pallett\u2014and they\u2019re all going to lose their seats at the next election. They\u2019re all sitting there going, \u201CI\u2019m toast. I\u2019m \u2018gone-burger\u2019.\u201D Because Tukituki is finished. Jamie Strange is sitting there at Hamilton East. He\u2019s gone. Sarah Pallett\u2019s not going to win Ilam again. Helen White couldn\u2019t even win Auckland Central last time around. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f015644a089b4f45a2f15bfab3cf042c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ian McKelvie)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fd07efac9674442b2eeca3f1159f12d\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: She\u2019s toast and she\u2019s sitting there thinking, \u201CWhat am I going to do?\u201D I can tell you something for free. The way to advance\u2014the way to advance and win a seat\u2014is not with bills like this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ENational opposes this bill for five reasons. The first is\u2014look at the bill. It is in a shocking state. As Simeon Brown noted, no departmental disclosure statement, no regulatory impact statement, no cost-benefit analysis. You only need to look at it. Look at what the committee\u2019s done to the bill. There\u2019s more black lines here and more insertions than there is actual text that it started with; we\u2019ve completely rewritten the bill. So the bill is in a shocking state. It\u2019s been completely retrofitted, and we should get rid of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe second reason we oppose this bill is what it says about the priorities of this Government. A hundred thousand New Zealand kids are chronically truant from school, we have child poverty going up, we have kids living in cars\u2014after Labour said they would fix these problems. We have thousands of New Zealand children living in motels. And what\u2019s Labour got the Parliament doing? Plain-language officers for every Government department\u2014not just Government departments; every reporting agency that is a Crown entity. That\u2019s the priority. Not child poverty. Not kids in cars. Not kids who are truant. Not economic growth. Not productivity. Not all of the manifold problems bedevilling this country but plain-language officers. I mean, it just actually beggars belief. I say to the Government\u2014I mean, I wish you would drop it but on the one level; I also think, \u201CCarry on, charge on.\u201D, because every time you put this bill before the House, you just illustrate to New Zealanders why they deserve to be thrown out of office at the next election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe third point is about bureaucracy. It\u2019s just actually unfathomable what we are doing here. Every single reporting agency\u2014not \u201Cmay\u201D but \u201Cmust\u201D; it\u2019s an imperative, it\u2019s a didactic imperative\u2014must appoint a plain-language officer. As Simeon Brown quite rightly said, it\u2019s the plain-language police. Every single Government department, every single Public Service agency, the Department of Internal Affairs, the Ministry of Health, the Ministry of Education, every single Crown agency, the New Zealand Transport Agency, Health New Zealand\u2014every single one. You read it, it\u2019s in Schedule 1 of the Crown Entities Act 2004\u2014every single one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EAnd yep, is it true that these plain-language officers could be existing bureaucrats, existing people who work in Public Service departments? Yeah, in theory. Is that likely to be the reality? Bear in mind, this Government has hired 14,000 more bureaucrats since they came to office. So what are the odds that they\u2019ll just appoint one of them? I mean, the sensible thing to do would be to put some poor communications officer at the Transport Agency and say, \u201CIn addition to all of the graphics and the comms work and all of the PRs you do to fluff up the Government, you should also be the plain-language officer.\u201D But no, no, no, that\u2019s not what will happen. I\u2019ll tell you what\u2019s going to happen. Here\u2019s what\u2019s going to happen after this bill gets passed. If you go on to seek.co.nz and trademe.co.nz and all the other job agencies, what will happen as you\u2019ll see an ad for a plain-language officer for\u2014pick an agency. There\u2019s literally hundreds of them. Those will be the job ads and people will end up having to apply for these jobs. I mean, what sort of ridiculous job is it? People are going to see these job ads from the New Zealand Government, these well-paid bureaucratic jobs, to be a plain-language police officer inside a Government agency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThere\u2019ll be hundreds of advertisements on SEEK and TradeMe. It\u2019s going to be absolutely ridiculous. And their job will be to issue guidance, issue instructions, issue consultation documents. And it\u2019s not a \u201Cmay\u201D. It\u2019s not an optional extra here. This is not an option. This is a \u201Cmust\u201D. It\u2019s an imperative. The Government is making these people do things and there\u2019ll have to be the annual report to the Public Service Commission. I\u2019ll tell you what\u2019s going to happen. Again, I\u2019ll make a prediction. We\u2019ll also see advertisements for the Public Service Commission to hire people to analyse all of the reports going into the Public Service Commission about the compliance of the Ministry of Health and the Department of Internal Affairs and every other Government agency. The artificial limb board is probably on the list. I think they\u2019re a Crown entity and they\u2019ll all have to submit a report and then the Public Service Commission will have to analyse them and file them away and that will involve hiring more bureaucrats. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224996eb0f29dc40ccbad1974541bb9b81\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: The Auditor-General\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022005c001100374a15a6a1c8400adaf520\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: The Auditor-General\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6bdb57b2cc2473992ffe7e63941ba98\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019ll have to check.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209897714a4b74c7cad416b7148d31852\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019ll have to check. Yeah, that\u2019s right. The Auditor-General will have to go and check and there\u2019ll be compliance checks and so that will be more bureaucrats.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThis Government has never seen a bureaucracy that they can\u2019t just add another layer to. It\u2019s just ridiculous. And of course, all of that is wealth-destructive of New Zealand. All of that is sapping away the lifeblood of the actual productive economy, and the Labour Government just does not understand that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe fourth point as to why National opposes this bill strongly and will repeal it is there are alternatives to legislation. And this was well canvassed in the excellent minority report from National members from the Governance and Administration Committee. Now the Legislation Design and Advisory Committee, a very august body, turned up and they said, \u201CLook, there is no need to legislate. You are putting this bill through the House for no reason. There no need to legislate.\u201D They submitted the policy objective was best achieved through non-legislative means, noting legislation guideline 2.3 \u201CLegislation should only be made when \u2026 necessary and is the most appropriate means of achieving the policy objective.\u201D Just issue a bloody report. Just send out a file note. Send out an email from Peter Hughes to the Government agencies saying, \u201CLook, we expect you to write concisely and clearly and plainly, and it\u2019s really important that people can read documents.\u201D That\u2019s literally all that\u2019s required. And then maybe, you know, send someone around every couple of years just to have a look or maybe we can ask about it in select committee or things like that. We don\u2019t need the plain-language police in every single Government agency. It\u2019s just absurd. So it breaches the Legislation Design and Advisory Committee guidelines and it also flies in the face of what the Office of the Clerk said, which is the same thing as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe Office of the Clerk said the requirements in the bill are uncertain and without consequence\u2014and that\u2019s the fifth point: there\u2019s no enforcement here. The giveaway is clause 10A of the bill, which has been inserted in it. Basically, it says, \u201CThis Act does not confer a legal right or impose a legal obligation on any person that is enforceable in a court of law.\u201D This bill is literally pointless. It imposes no legal rights, it imposes no legal obligations, and none of it is enforceable. So Parliament is passing something that is basically nugatory. It\u2019s a complete waste of time. None of it is enforceable. None of it imposes any legal rights, no legal duties that are obliged to be performed by anybody or enforceable by anybody. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo Parliament is going to spend hours and hours of its time through the committee process, the first reading, the second reading\u2014unless the Government comes to its senses and drops this bill\u2014passing a bill that is unenforceable, that would more easily be achieved through other means, will add hundreds of bureaucrats to the system, and is in such a shocking state that it doesn\u2019t have a regulatory impact statement, it doesn\u2019t have a cost-benefit analysis, and it\u2019s not actually clear what requirements it imposes. But the more important point is the signal it sends about priorities: enforcing plain-language police on Public Service departments as opposed to real issues facing New Zealand. We will repeal this stupid bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022 data-id=\u0022942a3d981eea4c489ba0bdf46479d70d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022942a3d981eea4c489ba0bdf46479d70d\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE (Labour\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m not sure about other people in this House, but I thought that the previous speaker, Chris Bishop, was a reasonably intelligent guy\u2014up until the last 10 minutes, where he spoke a whole lot of rubbish about this piece of legislation. He wasn\u2019t on the Governance and Administration Committee. We\u2019ve heard from two National Party MPs in this debate, neither of which were on the select committee\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e33af26cf06b4a0b86a83eb1f391349a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ian McKelvie)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Order! It is not appropriate to refer to a member\u2019s presence or otherwise on a select committee unless you\u2019re referring directly to what they\u2019ve talked about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263a5fbbf44c344b08e610a029b680db8\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise, Mr Speaker. The previous speech\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f34fe64ef4e14b4bb73a952df44501ac\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Just in relation to that, I didn\u2019t feel the need to go to the select committee because it was a waste of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022134cf735143d4373bc914b9dc1fa45c6\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Ian McKelvie)\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order, and it\u2019s not appropriate to interrupt the speaker with a frivolous interjection like that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cec33b3d2f94685b367d6177fa8d8a2\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. So, look, if there was ever an example of the National Party being out of touch with New Zealanders, that speech there was the prime example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019re talking about here is making the Public Service more accessible to New Zealanders. I don\u2019t understand\u2014why is that such a bad thing? Why does that grate so heavily on the National Party? Listening to that previous speech, it sounds like the National Party, they actually want to get rid of the whole Public Service. You know, they\u2019re talking about\u2014well basically, they\u2019re not valuing the Public Service. They\u2019re not valuing the Public Service. And I hope that speakers who come will actually reaffirm our faith in the Public Service, because I haven\u2019t heard anything to reaffirm that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003ENow, in terms of the select committee process, as a member of the select committee, I\u2019d like to acknowledge the work the select committee did on this bill. The work was extensive; other speakers have talked about that, and I will go into some of those details. I would like to acknowledge the chair of the committee, Ian McKelvie\u2014a very fair and experienced chair who does an excellent job on that committee\u2014and also all the members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EThe Labour member who brought this bill to the House, Rachel Boyack\u2014this is an issue she is very passionate about. We heard that in her speech, and I saw that in the select committee. What I saw was her engaging with officials at an extensive level to ensure that we have the best piece of legislation. This was a select committee process which provides faith to the process of select committees, in terms of amending legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EI just want to start by talking about the importance of accessibility in New Zealand as it relates to this bill. Then I\u2019ll go into some of the aspects in the bill and also some of the submissions that we heard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EIt is vital that every New Zealander has access to our democratic systems. We see examples of people not being able to access systems all the time. We see it in areas like transport, we see it at times in education, but we also see it in terms of the language that some Government agencies use in order for people to engage with those agencies and, at times, some of the processes that they use.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EI\u2019m sure that many of us MPs in the House would agree with me that we have constituents come into our offices who are unable to access the support that they need\u2014you know, the democratic support that the deserve as New Zealanders\u2014from Government agencies. At times, constituents\u2014they tend to get stuck, and they then end up coming to us, and one of the key roles that we play would be to support constituents with that Government agency. Now, a lot of that work can be averted if those Government agencies engage in plain language with the constituents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003ESo look, it\u2019s an important piece of legislation. The Opposition talk about the cost-benefit analysis; well, I want to say to the Opposition: what\u2019s the cost-benefit analysis of not doing this? You know, what is the cost of not having plain language\u2014of not having plain language? What we\u2019re going to have is we\u2019re going to have constituents in all of our electorates attempting to engage with Government agencies not being able to engage, and the time cost and all of that. So I\u2019m not sure the Opposition have thought that through. And I hear a few comments coming, and I look forward to the speech of the member who was on the select committee coming soon. He might shed some light on that. But the reality is that there is a huge cost to our Public Service of people not being able to engage in an accessible manner. That\u2019s one of the key things that this bill seeks to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EThis bill promotes the use of plain language in official documents and websites. Comprehensive information from Government organisations is a basic democratic right. If people are not able to access our democratic institutions, then our democracy starts to fall down. It is absolutely important that we maintain our strong sense of democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EIf we look at the geopolitics around the world, there does tend to be a little bit of an attack on liberal democracies. It\u2019s important that we maintain our strong liberal democracy\u2014absolutely passionate about that. This bill, some would say, is only a small little bill; it\u2019s not important; you know, wasting the House\u2019s time. Well I would argue that New Zealanders being able to access Government agencies enforces our democracy, enforces peoples\u2019 trust in the institutions, and enforces the services that we have and strengthens the democracy that we have in New Zealand, which is absolutely vital. As I mentioned before, there are some turbulent times around the world, at the moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EI just want to touch on a couple of the submissions. I want to start with Blind Low Vision New Zealand. So Blind Low Vision New Zealand, they submitted to our committee, and I just want to highlight a couple of points that they made because I think that would be for the benefit of the House. They said that \u201CWe believe that plain language writing is an essential part of prioritising accessibility across the public service.\u201D They were obviously in support of this bill, quite clearly. They highlight that, \u201CPlain language makes communications more accessible rather than fully accessible.\u201D They say, \u201CIt\u2019s not easy for Government agencies and Crown departments to write all new publications, forms, and publicly distributed documents in a \u2018clear, concise, well-organised manner\u2019 \u201D, but they need that support to do that. And so, as well as bringing this into legislation, the Government are providing support for those agencies to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EAnother submission, from the National Disabled Students\u2019 Association, and just a point that they highlight there, where they say\u2014where they highlight\u2014that \u201CThe Plain Language bill will support equity for accessing essential information.\u201D And I have talked about accessibility in this bill, and there\u2019s another key topic, and that\u2019s equity\u2014that is, equity for all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EAny person in New Zealand is only just a split second away from potentially moving into a position where they need extra support. You know, someone could have a major health issue, someone could, unfortunately, be in a car accident\u2014any one of us in this House is just a split second away from struggling either physically or mentally or emotionally to be able to access Government services. I think it\u2019s important that we all put ourselves in the shoes of New Zealanders who do struggle to access these services for whatever reason.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EA second point they raise is that this bill \u201Cwill ease the burden of disabled person\u2019s advocacy.\u201D And finally, they say it will \u201Ccreate more transparent and accountable agencies, strengthening Government relations with the disabled community.\u201D Now, the Public Service have done a lot of work, in terms of, you know, already strengthening their relations with the disabled community. This is another step on their journey. It\u2019s an important piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EAnother submission here\u2014the Public Health Association of New Zealand. So we heard from them in the committee. They said that \u201CIf implemented effectively [this bill] will allow better access to information and services for all New Zealanders.\u201D, which is obviously what I\u2019ve been highlighting in my speech. \u201CM\u0101ori and Pacific adults are less privileged within the system of English language than non-M\u0101ori, non-Pacific adults, and for many New Zealanders, English is not their only language.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003ENow, we heard from a previous speaker Naisi Chen; she highlighted this point really well, and I\u2019d also like to touch on it: the fact that for a lot New Zealanders, English is not their first language. It\u2019s absolutely vital that they have the ability to access Government agencies, to access information, in their language. We are a diverse, multicultural society, and that\u2019s one of our strengths. It\u2019s important that we continue to work in this area to enable people for whom English is not their first language to be able to access Government agencies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EI will just touch on a final submission, the Parents of Vision Impaired NZ. They highlight the fact that \u201CThe bill would improve the effectiveness and accountability of the public service by requiring communications to be clear and accessible to the public.\u201D In terms of the work that they do, they link in with a number of submissions\u2014we had many submitters who highlighted the importance of accessible information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EI am confused that the Opposition are not supporting this; I\u2019m disappointed that they\u2019re not supporting this. But this is the party that stand up for all New Zealanders, in terms of public service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00221c1e6b2b06974320a6b04ab8e6cc9928\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c1e6b2b06974320a6b04ab8e6cc9928\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022986c6a0cc71640dab876afe3048ab876\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022986c6a0cc71640dab876afe3048ab876\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise and take a short call, at this stage of the debate, on the Plain Language Bill in the member Rachel Boyack\u2019s name. Again, I want to acknowledge her for the introduction and progress of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s been a rather feisty debate so far. I do have to admit to some confusion with the position of the National Party on this, after having listened to the contributions across the House on the petition from the Citizens Advice Bureau around digital exclusion, which was not about the digital divide but was about, essentially, how do we create a Public Service that actually works for people with all of their different needs in our communities, and plain language is not going to fix all of that. But it\u2019s absolutely\u2014as we heard from the submissions mentioned from the previous speaker, Jamie Strange, particularly from groups representing disabled people\u2014a component of getting our Public Service to be accessible to all New Zealanders, whether it\u2019s language differences or accessibility needs. There is particular provision that has been added to this through the Governance and Administration Committee explicitly around accessibility, so it feels deeply inconsistent to be very much in support of that petition and that goal and yet come out and oppose this measure that is a specific solution to an aspect of that problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI also\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249343bbaaae84d44b197ce07586753cc\u0022\u003ESimon O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: So what\u2019s plain language?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a454bad8a5b4a929df355cd6088cd76\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014do just want to mention\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba835d014a8c467d8cae699552e4d5ec\u0022\u003ESimon O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t understand a word that member just said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f152cc334b304d09908ae6ddb4ccfea1\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m just having trouble focusing with that heckling, which is, I guess, the point of the heckling. So well done you, Mr O\u2019Connor. I also just want to say, just the point that\u2019s made by National about this increasing bureaucrats and the fact of this kind of being a policing thing\u2014 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d22da69ff574e43964e29b364cb5bce\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: It is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce0ce9a6331f4b80872dc9bca2835fd8\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014actually, my point would be that I have a memory in the previous National Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbbb4a89e7204ac18c8bbbc729a9ee16\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Order! With apologies to the member. Could the members on my left\u2014can I just remind them that interjections are to be rare and reasonable. I think a barrage is a bit unhelpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b307c0d7cbcb4c4bbafde72165081500\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. It was the point around policing, and I think the phrase was used by Simeon Brown of police enforcing language of the day, suggesting that this might be a mechanism for political indoctrination of our Public Service. I would argue the exact opposite of that. There are examples in my political memory, which is not the best, of National Ministers having banned words from the vocabulary of the public servants reporting to them and their work. There were particular words; I think I remember \u201Csustainability\u201D being a banned word to a National Minister. And I don\u2019t think that\u2019s good. I\u2019m going to be upfront about that; I do not think that\u2019s good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EWhat I see is this bill creating transparency around guidelines around plain language. There will be reporting to the Minister and reporting to Parliament around progress that makes this far more transparent and inclusive, and protects, I would argue, a measure against some of the previous practices that have been less than ideal. But there is much more to discuss on this bill and there have been some good changes made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EOne last point I wanted to make at this stage was just some of the softening of this in select committee that I\u2019m not quite sure about. The fact that this is not enforceable\u2014and I recognise it would have been problematic to make this enforceable when we have accessibility legislation in front of this House that has no enforceability mechanism, so that would have been a jarring difference. But if we talk about the rights of citizens to understand and access services, as the member who introduced the bill spoke of, then rights should, in my view, be enforceable. It is not a right if you only ever get to provide feedback on the performance and delivery of that right if it\u2019s not working for you. And the problem of the feedback model as opposed to even being able to make complaints is that it\u2019s even a step further away from that enforceability and recognition of it as a right and a core part of our Public Service. Again, it all sits, in the complaints model, on the person who\u2019s being locked out of access to be able to provide and make the difference. But the good thing in this bill is having these officers puts it back on the Public Service in recognising their duty to our citizens to be able to up their game.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003ESo with those points, and more discussion to come\u2014again, to say congratulations to the member; while this is not a Government piece of legislation, this is a good initiative that the Greens believe will help improve access to our public services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00222f23eb400a78422f9cfdb4cd2d3152c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f23eb400a78422f9cfdb4cd2d3152c4\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E I rise from my normally sedentary non-pedestrian position to perhaps provide an eloquent, suggestive form of conversational conduct\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022716a084cbc5f404580ae3e232a855dec\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Discourse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e15674b9250848d3a6ca1a9f419a44bd\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Discourse\u2014thank you, Dr Webb\u2014to provide a contribution for those herein.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI rise in support of this bill, the Plain Language Bill. The reality is that the way in which some members of our community receive information from Government agencies, from public services, is not fit for purpose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESo what is this bill seeking to do? Very simply, it is seeking to ensure that our community is able to receive information in a way that they can easily understand; that is communicated in a way that is easily understood. I do want to just start by acknowledging my colleague, the member for Nelson, Rachel Boyack, whose bill\u2014this is in her name. I know that Ms Boyack has already made a couple of contributions in the House this morning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EPalmy is her second home, she indicated\u2014you\u2019d be familiar with that, Madam Speaker\u2014herself. But for the benefit of those at home that perhaps missed Mr Chris Bishop\u2019s contribution, he described Ms Boyack as a conscientious and diligent member of Parliament\u2014and that she certainly is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWe all know that members\u2019 day is an opportunity for members who have had their bills drawn from the biscuit tin to progress them. So while we hear from members opposite that this is the focus of the Government\u2014wasting time, etc.\u2014far from it. As Jan Logie has indicated, this is a member\u2019s bill; it is in the member\u2019s name. It happens to be that most, if not all, members on this side of the House think that it\u2019s a very good bill to progress through the Parliament. And members on this side of the House are not alone: because of the submissions that were received by the Governance and Administration Committee, they also suggested that it was a worthwhile bill for consideration and to progress through the Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ECan I acknowledge members on the Governance and Administration Committee. That\u2019s the committee to which this bill went, and the committee has returned its report to the House. I started off as a member of that committee, so I know that it is very collegial, but it\u2019s also hard-working. So I acknowledge the work that they\u2019ve done with this particular bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThis bill, as others have suggested\u2014you know, plain language itself won\u2019t necessarily fix everything, but it certainly will make a difference. When I reflect on members in my community in Palmerston North, that will make a huge difference. Because when I reflect on my experience as a teacher at a secondary school over many years, in terms of the level of engagement with some members of our Pasifika community, the language that\u2019s used, the definitions, the acronyms\u2014all of those sorts of things in the Ministry of Education and school environments do not encourage or support some members of our community to engage, let alone engage with the process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESo anything that\u2019s going to change that and make a difference, I think, is something that should be celebrated. Yes, there can be tweaks along the way and the select committee, in its wisdom, have acknowledged a number of suggested changes that they think that the Parliament should progress\u2014sensible ones when one looks at them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWhen we look and delve into the focus of this bill, it is about promotion. It\u2019s about promotion of good practices; the use of plain language in official documents. So we\u2019re not talking about every single document that exists out there; we are talking about particular and specific documents that have a public purpose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re also talking about websites. We all know that most are able to engage with an opportunity to get information through websites\u2014that\u2019s certainly an expectation these days. So not just in written form, but what might be seen online is really, really important, because information from Government organisations and departments, and access to that information, is a basic democratic right. So that\u2019s what this particular bill seeks to achieve: to ensure that the access and the method of communication is a way in which it is easily able to be understood.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EAll of us, as members of this House, engage with constituents who have more than one or two issues when it comes to communicating with Government agencies. When I reflect upon the submission from the CAB, the Citizens Advice Bureau, a longstanding organisation who fronted up to the select committee and identified that this bill will actually make a difference, I like to listen to those individuals, the hard-working volunteers who spend countless hours and days\u2014certainly in my community and many others as well\u2014engaging with people who are wanting help, who are wanting assistance, who are wanting support. If that is just one organisation that is saying to the Parliament, \u201CThis is a good thing to do,\u201D then it is, I think, important that the Parliament is able to listen to that and to reflect on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWhat is of interest is, you know, when we look at other agencies\u2014and local government is a good example; the bill that\u2019s just passed through the House earlier today was one focused on local government. If we reflect on our own spheres in terms of local communities, we all know and expect that local governments are agencies or organisations that are able to engage with the community, and they\u2019re doing things in a different way. They\u2019re rethinking how they can engage with their communities to ensure that the information that gets out to their ratepayers, their residents, their communities of interest is information that they understand and information that they value.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EIf we all think about how our rates demands have changed over the years to be less of a focus on just what the bottom line is and actually more of an understanding of what the services and the provision of services that local government does provide, it\u2019s yet another example of the changing dynamic within which this bill sits and falls.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EOne of the things that I did observe is that the select committee obviously turned its mind to a number of workable changes: for example, the definition of a document, but also making clear that M\u0101ori language and other languages would not, effectively, be part and parcel of what was required to fall within the plain-language definition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI think that\u2019s really important, because when I reflect on some communities\u2014like Palmerston North, where we are a welcoming community in terms of new migrants; we have more than 165 different ethnic groups that are represented in Palmerston North alone and more than 220 different dialects that are spoken in the city\u2014it\u2019s not a one-size-fits-all approach and certainly when you take their one size and you make sure that it\u2019s in a language that is second or third or fourth generation for some and not for others, it makes the communication opportunity much, much more difficult.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESo we hear that through the select committee process, where submitters were talking about, or referring to, the fact that this would make a huge difference, particularly in the space of those organisations and individuals for whom English is an additional language that they have to learn. So this is a bill that would certainly support them in terms of engaging with things that they are entitled, as citizens and residents of this country, to engage with\u2014and even as visitors, actually, to this country to engage with as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe interesting thing is that this has actually been done; this approach has been taken elsewhere around the world. What some of the feedback indicates is that, actually, when approaches like this are put in place, there is actually an efficiency gain here; that if there is an investment at the start of the process to ensure that people are able to understand and that things can be communicated in an easily accessible way, then you save the cost, you save the pain, you save the experience of having to, for example, engage with local decision makers, with members of Parliament, to engage with organisations, whether it be Immigration New Zealand, whether it be K\u0101inga Ora, whether it be the Ministry of Social Development or others, and there is a cost saving and an efficiency gain in doing this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESo when I hear from members opposite that they think this is a complete waste of the Parliament\u2019s time, it flies in the face of what the community\u2019s expecting from public agencies\u2014from Government agencies\u2014to ensure that what is put out into that public domain is accessible, but also that it\u2019s supported by a particular process in place to make sure that things are reviewed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESo one other change that I note is that not everything will suddenly have to be changed to make it easy\u2014unfortunately, because I would think that, actually, the sooner the better; the sooner that people are able to get information in a way that they can easily understand, the better. But this has a kick-in provision of six months after Royal assent to allow for agencies to put arrangements in place and get things under way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EAgain, I think this is a sensible bill. It is one that will make a huge difference to many members of our community, particularly those that currently do not engage and do not have the support within that public sector. I\u2019m delighted to again congratulate my colleague Rachel Boyack and to commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022 data-id=\u002219af3708e7c2409a9528ed03c83a5ecb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219af3708e7c2409a9528ed03c83a5ecb\u0022\u003EDr JAMES McDOWALL (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise on behalf of ACT to talk about this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003EAt the start of this reading today, Rachel Boyack thanked the Governance and Administration Committee for assisting and making it a better bill, and the previous speaker, Tangi Utikere, thanked the committee for suggesting a number of workable changes. All I\u2019ve got to say to that is \u201CYou\u2019ve got to be kidding me! There\u2019s nothing left.\u201D If you go through the bill, it\u2019s all gone. It\u2019s a totally new bill. We\u2019re not actually debating what we did in the first reading; there\u2019s nothing left. It should have been sent back to the drafters and dumped at select committee, but here we are debating it at the second reading. It\u2019s absolutely astonishing. The Government has already done a U-turn this week, a fairly significant one. I think it would be quite productive of the Labour Party to do it again with their support of this bill\u2014turn it around and get rid of this thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s been fascinating listening to the Labour Party speakers on this, this sudden obsession with Immigration New Zealand (INZ) and all this support for migrants, which is somewhat surprising. You know, the sheer amount of straw man arguments that I\u2019ve heard today has been pretty disappointing, but I will get to that. A few speakers have spoken about how it\u2019s important that people with English as a second language are able to access information, and the context of Immigration New Zealand was brought in there too. And it\u2019s important that they can get the stuff that they need, which is probably why Immigration New Zealand releases so much information in foreign languages, in other languages\u2014right?\u2014to actually support this. So these sorts of things already happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003EBut if we get into this a bit more, so the bill comes with a requirement to appoint these plain-language officers. It\u2019s just an absolute absurdity. And I think, though, that being said, with the workforce shortages, normally it\u2019s quite difficult to find people to do these bureaucratic roles at the moment. But most certainly, after the next election, there\u2019ll be a horde of ex - Labour backbenchers who might be able to qualify to do these roles. But in any case, it doesn\u2019t matter, because the ACT Party has a policy to reduce the public sector back to 2017 levels, and there is fierce competition to decide who\u2019s going to go first, what roles are going to go first. But I think it might just be these ones. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003ESo going further into the bill, the commencement\u2014it\u2019s actually quite good to see the six months being added in there after Royal assent, when this all kicks in. My suggestion is: look, to save taxpayer money, make it 12 months so that by the time that we\u2019re in Government, we can just get rid of this and they won\u2019t have wasted all these resources and money getting it under way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003EAs I alluded to earlier, the supportive comments from\u2014well, the support from Labour for migrants is a bit surprising. I\u2019m trying to kind of hold my tongue here a little bit as to what I think of that. So Rachel Boyack spoke about INZ. Look, the reality is, practically speaking, having had a bit to do with the immigration system\u2014yep, you\u2019re right; the ops manual exists. That has all the complicated instructions for visas and how to process and also all this other stuff, requirements; that is not public comms. If you go to the Immigration website, they\u2019ve actually got a pretty good and easy to use website where they condense a lot of that information down. The job\u2019s already done. Yes, advisers and lawyers usually work through the ops manual, which is the same thing that immigration officials work through as well. So, you know, that\u2019s just addressing this piece of the advice that a document prepared by officials from Immigration New Zealand, intended for immigration advisers, might differ in its wording. Well, obviously; that\u2019s just reality. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003EBut the next thing that I wanted to touch on here was around this English stuff in the context of immigration, because I wonder if those that have spoken about this from the Labour Party have actually ever dealt with the immigration system and dealt with visa categories and their requirements. Obviously, there are English language requirements in a lot of these visas, right? So if they care so much, if this is such a problem that migrants are having such difficulty understanding instructions and perhaps their advisers are having difficulty, whatever, then I\u2019m assuming they\u2019re going to drop the English language requirements from visas, right? If they really care about this, then drop the requirements. But actually, what have they done? They\u2019ve just brought in more and more and more, including in the investor categories as well, or their new investment visa. So I don\u2019t know. I mean, I think just walk the talk with this stuff and, yeah, I\u2019m very careful about my opinion on this because it\u2019s actually extraordinarily frustrating. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003EI think it was Rachel Boyack who also spoke about vulnerable migrants\u2014yes, that\u2019s a very important issue\u2014and specific visas for that. Typically what happens is the community law centre will assist\u2014that\u2019s all across the country\u2014and lawyers are expected to do pro bono work, and that\u2019s often where they work as well. So there are systems in place, people in place, and organisations in place to assist with this stuff. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003EMoving on from immigration for a bit, it talks about tax returns. Look, I\u2019d say that the Inland Revenue, despite my apprehension about them, have made huge improvements for filing tax returns, IR3s, in particular, and IR4s. They are much simpler than they used to be. So, again, it\u2019s the whole\u2014you know, what is this? It\u2019s a solution looking for a problem, in so many ways.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003EThe use of te reo M\u0101ori in documents\u2014yep, sure. It\u2019s important that they said that they don\u2019t want to discourage that being used in documents and communications and that this Act will not cover that or it won\u2019t actually stop them from using te reo M\u0101ori. So, yep, that\u2019s fine. I mean, in practice it means you can just change as much as you like and make a document completely incomprehensible to the majority of the population, and it\u2019s still considered plain language. So, yeah, anyway!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003EThe Official Information Act stuff was actually quite a quite a funny note, and I thought it actually would have been quite funny if they included that, because I\u2019m kind of surprised the Government didn\u2019t, because not only would it mean they could release documents completely redacted; they could also rewrite them in the process\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed7d782b29c048978d6dd97d79b64687\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: And then redact them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022707a9a91447b434797478918d0903246\u0022\u003EDr JAMES McDOWALL\u003C/span\u003E: And then redact them again. So I\u2019m kind of surprised they didn\u2019t push on with that one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003EBut look, I think, as I said, the straw man arguments around this\u2014frankly, completely fake support of migrants. For a Government that has spent three years, just in terms of Government policy, absolutely coming down on migrants, punishing them, and splitting families up, to sit there speaker after speaker in the Labour Party and say, \u201COh, this is why we\u2019re doing this, to support them.\u201D is just absolutely absurd. It\u2019s fake and we\u2019re opposing this stupid bill. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2f6ac005d694210b1a35a495031c739\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2f6ac005d694210b1a35a495031c739\u0022\u003ESARAH PALLETT (Labour\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It is a genuine pleasure and privilege to rise in support of this Plain Language Bill. I have many reasons for my firm support of it, which I will outline as clearly and concisely as possible. I\u2019d like to commend Rachel Boyack for bringing this bill to the House. I understand that it has been in the tin for quite some time, which might explain the amount of work that the admirable Governance and Administration Committee put into it, and I will outline a few of the changes that they did undertake as I move through this speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EBut it\u2019s important, I think, when we\u2019re looking at bills that come before the House, to look at why we\u2019re doing them. It\u2019s obviously really important to have a clear understanding of why we do what we do and why we\u2019re here. I\u2019m going to share a few quotes that I think really explain fully why this is important, the first being from the former chairman of the National Consumer Council in the UK, where the plain English campaign has been going for quite some time, extremely successfully. Michael Shanks said, \u201CGobbledygook may indicate a failure to think clearly, a contempt for one\u2019s clients, or, more probably, a mixture of both.\u201D He goes on to say that a system that can\u2019t or won\u2019t communicate is not a safe basis for democracy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EI first became really interested in plain language or plain English as I have a very old friend in the UK from many, many years ago who\u2019s an extremely successful lawyer and absolutely passionate about ensuring that all of his clients\u2014and everybody in the United Kingdom, by extension, from the work that he\u2019s doing to introduce plain language into legal documents\u2014actually understands what it is that they\u2019re agreeing to when they sign a contract. He is passionate about ensuring that legal documents are fully accessible to his clients. He\u2019s deeply committed to removing gobbledegook, jargon, and misleading public information, and that\u2019s what we\u2019re trying to do here. It isn\u2019t about dumbing down; it\u2019s about ensuring that everybody understands what we\u2019re saying. Some of the implications that we\u2019ve heard, as this morning has drawn on, are equating clarity with dumbing down, and that\u2019s pandering and clearly offensive. The bottom line is if you\u2019re unable to explain your ideas clearly and concisely, you probably don\u2019t understand them yourself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll give you a couple of examples. In my profession as a midwife, we would use acronyms and jargon all the time, and it was something that I absolutely discouraged in my students, because although it does make for shorter notes, it doesn\u2019t make for more easily understandable notes, and it can also lead to confusion. So an example would be \u201CIUD\u201D, which some people might be familiar with as a form of reversible long-term contraception. But, actually, IUD is also an acronym for intrauterine death, which is quite different from intrauterine contraceptive device, so you\u2019d have to be pretty careful about where you use that. \u201CLOA\u201D, commonly used by midwives\u2014\u201CBaby LOA\u201D; left occiput anterior. What it means is, and what I would write is, that your baby is positioned with its head down, with their back to your left-hand side. Their head is fully flexed and they\u2019re in a great position to be born. Now, if you were pregnant\u2014forgive me for making this personal. If anybody here in this room were pregnant, surely they would like to know what LOA meant, and they would really love that reassurance and clear understanding of what was going on with their pregnancy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EI myself got asked the other day by a school principal to explain why I was wearing a mask, because they\u2019d had a little bit of confusion in their school. Now, I would commonly say that I wear masks to prevent the transmission of what is an airborne respiratory infection\u2014that is, a virus. But you can\u2019t say that to primary school pupils\u2014well, you can, but they\u2019re not going to understand a word of what you\u2019re saying. So I just told them that I wore my mask to show them that I cared about them, because I didn\u2019t want any bugs that I might have to be shared with them. And they seemed to understand me quite clearly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EBut support for plain language has come from unexpected places, and I imagine the National Party will be quite surprised to hear that Baroness Thatcher was one of the key proponents of the sharing and undertaking of plain language in the United Kingdom. I imagine that many of you across the House are actually fairly good fans of the work of Baroness Thatcher, and I find myself in the unusual position of agreeing with her, which is not something you\u2019re going to see very often\u2014so do make the most of it. She said, \u201CIt is no exaggeration to describe plain English as a fundamental tool of good Government.\u201D\u2014a fundamental tool. \u201CSome people\u201D, she said, \u201Cthink that flowery language and complicated writing is a sign of intellectual strength. They are wrong \u2026 Plain English must be the aim of all who work in Government.\u201D Take those words on board, my friends on the Opposition benches. Maybe you\u2019d like\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022800b48038cf843d3bb9af1ff0d67e8d9\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: We agree.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec32b059753f4e72ac5ec7b5eaa82605\u0022\u003ESARAH PALLETT\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014to listen to\u2014you agree? I\u2019m glad you agree. Awesome. David Cameron, another person whose work I imagine you approve of\u2014again, I find myself agreeing with him when he says that bureaucracies that overcomplicate things to boost their own self-importance build barriers between Government and the people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003ESubmitters to the select committee are probably more important than historic United Kingdom parliamentarians. Their views are the ones that we should be listening to. I\u2019m just going to highlight what the Citizens Advice Bureau had to say: \u201CWe regularly assist people to make sense of information that they receive from Government agencies.\u201D My colleague Tangi Utikere, I believe, spoke about the investment in the front-end of communication with our constituents, and for lawyers, with clients. We are not talking about introducing a whole new level of bureaucracy. We\u2019re actually talking about giving people who already undertake that work a role to play in ensuring that we\u2019re communicating more clearly. Citizens Advice have said that they see examples of clients struggling with a range of communications constantly, and really welcome this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EThe National Disabled Students\u2019 Association said, specifically, that the Plain Language Bill will support equity for accessing essential information, ease the burden of disabled persons\u2019 advocacy, create more transparent and accountable agencies, and strengthen Government relationships with the disabled community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EI find it absolutely inexplicable. It\u2019s really hard for me to understand why anybody in this House would stand in the way of clear communication between Government and the people that we serve. This concern was shared by a constituent this morning who was interested in what I was doing and really didn\u2019t understand why the National Party was in opposition, and not only in opposition but in strong opposition, to the point where we have had to sit on this side of the House and actually listen to some nasty comments coming from our colleagues on Opposition benches, some of which, it has to be said, would definitely fall into the category of people in glass houses, Mr Bishop. But the submitters who matter here, people with disabilities, people who are advocating for our constituents\u2014Citizens Advice, who are trying to make things more accessible; People First New Zealand, who are a disabled persons\u2019 organisation\u2014they are in clear support of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EThere is, obviously, a time where flowery language is of use. Flowery language\u2014I love language. It\u2019s a critically important part of my world, and I\u2019ve been an avid reader and writer for my entire life, and I brought to mind the times when it is important to use more words, longer words, make things less accessible. I enjoy Chaucer; I enjoy Shakespeare, but I would not expect anybody to take a document that was as complex as the language of Chaucer or Shakespeare and actually understand what it said when they\u2019re applying it to their legal rights, where it\u2019s really important that we have absolute clarity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EI wandered lonely as a cloud\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EThat floats on high o\u2019er vales and hills,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EWhen all at once I saw a crowd,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EA host, of golden daffodils;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EBeautiful. Basically, \u201CI was feeling sad. I went for a walk. I saw a lot of beautiful daffodils, and they cheered me right up.\u201D Good old Wordsworth. But that is the place for flowery, inaccessible language\u2014in poetry and literature, and not in Government legislation. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f78a040586e449fd916453e43a3536a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f78a040586e449fd916453e43a3536a6\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: I call Chris Penk\u2014five-minute call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u002245c43c4cb9484941bb4b3921b212d64f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245c43c4cb9484941bb4b3921b212d64f\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. If it ain\u2019t broke, don\u2019t fix it. This bill is not good. In fact, this bill is bad. We do not see why the bill should be in this House. In fact, we think it should go. Why have a rule made up to fix a thing that ain\u2019t broke? You can say things in more words, and time, now. Or you can say things in less time. Why have rules made to say what type of things can be said, and at what length? My speech will be short, and each word in my speech has been short. Those are all the words I have to say on this bill. It is bad, and it should go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022abc820e1b530465fbd4534ee2f115a9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022abc820e1b530465fbd4534ee2f115a9a\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. That was very The Cat in the Hat, wasn\u2019t it? But, actually, for all of his facetiousness, Mr Penk makes a good point that clear language is a good thing. But to say that nothing\u2019s broke is wholly inaccurate and suggests that Mr Penk should delve into a few more Government documents. We heard about the immigration instructions, and only yesterday I was looking at the animal welfare codes, in respect of dogs, to respond to a couple of school students. Those documents are turgid.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc44fa14dbf849d08a7fd3c78c69d1be\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: What does turgid mean?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d3f02519eba408f9fd457488bbda0f8\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: To suggest that it\u2019s\u2014well, turgid, Mr Woodhouse, is whatever comes out of your mouth when you stand up. To be perfectly honest, to have a responsibility on Government to turn their minds to who the audience is\u2014the animal welfare code for dogs is a great example because, frankly, that\u2019s something we want every dog owner to be able to look at, understand, and comply with so that they can look after dogs appropriately and in accordance with the law. But that\u2019s actually not that easy to do with a 40-page document that uses technical language.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s face it that our advisers and our people who work in ministries do a great job, but they do need to get out more sometimes. They can sometimes get trapped into a circle of thinking and communicating with each other in ways which they understand but are jargonistic and complex and sometimes convoluted. To have a pair of eyes saying, \u201CDon\u2019t say give, devise, and bequeath; just say give because that\u2019s redundant\u201D\u2014just those obvious things. Use active not passive sentences. Let\u2019s break up sentences. Let\u2019s use bullet points. These are all good ideas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s be honest: there are some Government documents that are very good, very accessible. In fact, could I just say this is actually about a working, functioning democracy because one of the things we need is for law to be accessible. In New Zealand, as in any developed democracy, it isn\u2019t just legislation that\u2019s law; it\u2019s regulation, ordinances, and, of course, policy guidance and documents, which sometimes are where the rubber really hits the road. Those documents can be extremely complicated. Whilst it\u2019s appropriate to have comprehensive rules when the thing that\u2019s being regulated is complicated, we need to push back against the idea that language has to be inaccessible because the subject matter is inaccessible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo this is a very good bill. I was talking, only moments ago, to Jan Tinetti, who was doing a lot of research on this, noticing that we\u2019re well behind the plate\u2014we\u2019re well behind the plate. The United States has had this in place for decades and has strengthened it over time. Why? Because they take seriously the right of any citizen to know and understand what their obligations are. They should be able to do that\u2014not by going into a Government department and having it explained by an official or bureaucrat, not by going to a lawyer, not by going to a community advice centre, but by picking up a document and using normal reading skills, because citizens, in most cases, are the people who are intended to be the recipients, the audience for any given document. And it\u2019s a basic rule of drafting; it\u2019s not that much to ask. When you write something, think about who you\u2019re writing it to or for, and write it so that they will understand it. It\u2019s not a high threshold. To suggest that in some way it\u2019s wrong-headed to have someone running the rule over a communication and saying, \u201COh, look, our intended audience couldn\u2019t possibly understand it\u201D\u2014to suggest that\u2019s wrong-headed is just utterly ill-conceived.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThis is a very good piece of legislation that will make our democracy better, will make our citizens better informed, and make our Public Service more effective. That is an excellent piece of legislation. I look forward to the day it is passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022eaeeebf57d124552a83aac96243d28b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eaeeebf57d124552a83aac96243d28b0\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Well, that speech from Dr Duncan Webb was so incoherent, it\u2019s no surprise to me that Labour actually want to pass the Plain Language Bill, probably to either improve his speech or shut him up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EBut I\u2019ve got to say\u2014oh, where to begin? Look, I\u2019ll start with the only positive thing, I think, that came out of Labour\u2019s contributions in the second reading debate, and it came from the soon to be former member for Hamilton East Jamie Strange, when he said he has faith in the Public Service. Well, so do I. I have faith that they\u2019re able to follow guidance without the hand of the State, the spectre of law, hanging over the top of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EBut, worse than that, in the face of 7 percent inflation, a fourfold increase in kids living in cars, 500 percent increase in ram raids, 40 percent of our children not attending school regularly, massive waits in healthcare, and huge staffing shortages across the country, this Government thinks we should set aside select committees and come to the House on a Thursday morning to progress a plain-language bill. That speaks to the priorities of an arrogant and out-of-touch Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI must say that Naisi Chen criticising Simeon Brown was a bit rich. She criticised him as a spokesperson for this not attending a select committee once. Well, I was jealous of Simeon Brown. I think that\u2019s a credit to him that he didn\u2019t waste a single minute, because I didn\u2019t have the same luxury. I had to sit through hours and hours and hours of completely wasted time, as a member of the Governance and Administration Committee, sitting, listening to submitters\u2014nearly none of whom are going to be happy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThe people that support the bill, the people that Sarah Pallett talks about, the disabilities community, People First, and the Citizens Advice Bureau\u2014they wanted the Government to go further. So they\u2019re not going to be happy. The people who wanted te reo and Braille and sign language included in the bill\u2014none of them will be happy. And certainly the very smart people who oppose this bill will be aghast that their measured but very plain-language submissions that said don\u2019t waste Parliament\u2019s time, don\u2019t waste the select committee\u2019s time, were completely ignored. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThey weren\u2019t just any old submitters; it was the Office of the Clerk, the people who actually run this place and understand why and when and what good law looks like, and they were pretty unambiguous. They said\u2014and I\u2019ll find it\u2014\u201CThe requirement in the bill to ensure that documents are in plain language is not a clear legal requirement. That is because plain language is not an easily ascertainable standard.\u201D How ironic is that, that the very definition of \u201Cplain language\u201D is not plain? So we\u2019re passing a bill to improve language, and nobody knows what that means. Ironic in the extreme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThe Legislation Design and Advisory Committee recommended that the bill not proceed. They said\u2014and I agree with this\u2014\u201CWe consider [the] policy objective is best achieved more effectively\u201D\u2014more effectively\u2014\u201Cthrough non-legislative means.\u201D And further to that, \u201C \u2018Legislation should only be made when it is necessary and is the most appropriate means of achieving the policy objective.\u2019 \u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI could go on. There were a number of them all saying \u201CGood idea\u201D\u2014in fact, Sarah Pallett and I agree on that too; that\u2019s another positive. Plain language is good; passing laws for everything is not. And that\u2019s what the legal experts said. I\u2019m surprised at Dr Duncan Webb, given that he is a lecturer in legal jurisprudence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s a waste of this House\u2019s time. It was a waste of the select committee\u2019s time. It was a waste of the submitters\u2019 time. It was a waste of the officials\u2019 time. Frankly, this bill is going to be consigned to the group of bills that were passed, frankly, just to make up time on a members\u2019 day: lost luggage, military manoeuvres repeal, laser pointers, and now we have plain language. So let\u2019s just say it in as plain a language as we can: this is unnecessary, it\u2019s inappropriate, it lacks any sort of a priority in the list of even members\u2019 bills, and we should be getting on to better things. But no we won\u2019t; we\u2019ll be here next members\u2019 day, going through a committee of the whole House, trying to improve a bad bill, and we\u2019ll continue to waste this House\u2019s time for no obvious benefit. Let\u2019s put it in the dustbin.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022d92265f8a6314689aff65e96a6e86e23\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d92265f8a6314689aff65e96a6e86e23\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Speaker. CS Lewis said\u2014and I pause as the room is filled with awe and wonder\u2014\u201CDon\u2019t use words too big for the subject. Don\u2019t say \u2018infinitely\u2019 when you mean \u2018very\u2019. Otherwise you\u2019ll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite.\u201D I just thought I\u2019d let that sink in as we speak on this very significant piece of legislation. In this House, which doesn\u2019t have infinite power but it has a lot of power, and today I have to remind people that this is a members\u2019 day and this is a member\u2019s bill, and, of course, there is the wonderful biscuit tin that does its magic and has got us to this place. But there is also the work of Rachel Boyack, who has worked on this and has had the luck, the blessing, or whatever it is for us to be able to debate, to take this legislation to the select committee and to bring it back here to the House this morning\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI guess that part of what I\u2019ve heard this morning as I\u2019ve listened is the fundamental differences that come from different sides of the House around what\u2019s important. As I\u2019ve listened, I realised that language, as much as we want to ignore it or forget it, is power. With that is education, and being educated is understanding words and language and forming sentences and structures, and for many of us in this place we\u2019ve had the privilege and the opportunity to attend schools, private schools, for example, that offer a certain type of education that\u2019s different from others. Many of us have had the privilege of making it to our universities. But many of us haven\u2019t, and this isn\u2019t about intelligence. This isn\u2019t about who\u2019s better than anyone else. It\u2019s actually just about how language works within our society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ELanguage has always evolved. It\u2019s always changed; it\u2019s always moved. If you just look at our dictionaries, every year new words are added and changed. As we spread across different generations and different ages, language has been adopted. It has been embedded into laws, into our market places, into our learning institutions, into our religions, into our story telling, into our politics, and, of course, even into our Public Service. Each time, each generation, and each decade it changes and it evolves, to affect those who are here right now to understand it and to move forward. So plain language is something that we need to look at for all people in our society, and as I said earlier, this isn\u2019t about dumbing down; this is about making it accessible to everyone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ELast week, I was blown away and humbled to see a new Speaker elected into that Chair, a bilingual Speaker, a speaker of te reo and speaker of English. Several generations ago that just would not have happened. That would not have been a thing that would have been seen in this place. But to see the progression, the moves, and the changes in our society so that we have a bilingual Speaker, of two of our languages here in Aotearoa, makes me very proud. I\u2019m grateful to the Rt Hon Adrian Rurawhe for accepting that position.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EIt shows that society moves on and it changes and it morphs and it grows. As I say, language is such a powerful thing, and often that\u2019s why our institutions want to protect language from being made more approachable and accessible\u2014because language is power. In fact, I began with CS Lewis. I will continue with some other great thought leaders. Julia Penelope said, \u201CLanguage is power, in ways more literal than most people think. When we speak, we exercise the power of language to transform reality. Why don\u2019t more of us realize the connection between language and power?\u201D I think part of the conversation this morning and part of the pushback I\u2019ve heard is the fear that, maybe, \u201CI may lose some power, because I have the command of the English language. I understand it. I can speak words that no one else knows.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224328c8a6ea24f8caee631650962883f\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: No, you can\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215362e86ea634f988fed97d5f8ac25b2\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I can\u2019t; I know. I can\u2019t use those words. I am a simple man, a man of my community, but a man who can actually string a sentence together and can act actually understand our society. But, for example, I could have given a 30-second speech. I know some of you wanted that. I could have given a one-minute speech. A few less of you would want that. But I would like to give a 10-minute speech in support of this bill. The thing with a 10-minute speech is\u2014and I know people are setting in with a cup of tea and enjoying it\u2014that it takes a lot of time and effort to create less words. I know it sounds boring and I know you\u2019re rolling your eyes but it\u2019s true. So in my 10 minutes, I haven\u2019t articulated as clearly and concisely as I could have\u2014I\u2019ll admit that right now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a07a6480773a4d249a9d9710dfdcf71c\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: You could have used plainer language.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227946a663dab84f36a76a2b0738ea2a28\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: I could\u2019ve used plainer language, but if I\u2019d been given a one-minute or two-minute speech I would have had to spend a long time curating and crafting the words to bring them together, and it would\u2019ve taken a lot more effort, but I\u2019ve chosen to let you enjoy the humble drones of my voice for almost 10 minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EThis bill is important for many communities within our nation and our society, and for me, as the MP for New Plymouth, it\u2019s an important piece of legislation for many of my constituents. I referred in the first reading of this to a particular constituent who had actually ignored Work and Income for many years. There was some funding they weren\u2019t supposed to receive they that were receiving. They actually wanted to do the right thing, but the issue they had was actually having to negotiate the system. When they got given a form of 20 pages to fill out to explain everything, they chose to ignore it because they didn\u2019t have the education, the expertise, to be able to fill that form out. So they continued with something they didn\u2019t want to do because the system had become so oriented around language, around forms, that they chose to step away from something they should have done. That\u2019s sorted now, I\u2019m happy to say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EAnother thing in terms of constituents who come into my office is that, again, they drop a document that is thick, full of words, on my desk. It\u2019s full of words, words, words\u2014not Shakespeare but words that come out of this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224668545a185847d098d2bd207f1bfc9c\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: They don\u2019t come easy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299114ba8daa644afb7f1a4a0fc580cf4\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: And they don\u2019t come easy. Those words often are complicated and difficult to negotiate and get your head around. I know that many of us in this House are able to pick up that document, and we\u2019re able to decipher it and pull it apart within seconds, but for some of us\u2014and I\u2019m happy to admit it\u2014it takes a little bit more effort.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ESo the accessibility of plain language is important, not only for all people but for many of our constituents across the board. But language is obviously a key part of communication, and for some of you in this room that communication is excellent, top notch, but for others\u2014let\u2019s be honest\u2014it is clunky. It is wordy, and there have been times in this House when I\u2019ve been frantically on my cell phone, on Google, trying to understand what words mean, when, for example, someone could have said \u201Cvery\u201D rather than \u201Cinfinitely\u201D although that\u2019s a really bad example, I know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI support Rachel Boyack and her legislation. I thank all of those who submitted on this, and I thank our society in the 21st century, as it can actually look at what was and not just assume that is what will be, because language and legislation that come through this House should be accessible to all people. I finish with the words I began with: \u201CDon\u2019t use words too big for the subject. Don\u2019t say \u2018infinitely\u2019 when you mean \u2018very\u2019. Otherwise you\u2019ll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite.\u201D On that, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea18c9bb76b743df867a12c56b1dc82a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea18c9bb76b743df867a12c56b1dc82a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that\u2014[Interruption] Just when the House is ready. The question is that the amendments recommended by the Governance and Administration Committee by majority be agreed to. Those of that opinion will say Aye, to the contrary No. the Ayes have it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThe question is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7d4e1d2e0744f898c5830c09b0bd780\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: The Noes have it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293c376b1e0d8474186703ddfa88f3f5e\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, look, I had already started to put the question. The member\u2014I hadn\u2019t heard any indication from any members that they were going to vote No. [Interruption] Don\u2019t wave at me\u2014I don\u2019t need your help. However, it was on the margins\u2014so am I hearing a No? A party vote has been called for. The Clerk will conduct a party vote. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002211d434311264412b9cefbb505a03984d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments recommended by the Governance and Administration Committee by majority be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222defe8f362394fc08018b289a3f674e9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Plain Language Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000355\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224b83e9ab0ea8487da8471ce2316a2ff4\u0022\u003EOverseas Investment (Exempt Investment from OECD Countries) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a284990d43f547f39434d82ed61e1c42\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022 data-id=\u00221d9909e2c31f4fb7905de2ecdafd513a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d9909e2c31f4fb7905de2ecdafd513a\u0022\u003EDAMIEN SMITH (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I move, that the Overseas Investment (Exempt Investment from OECD Countries) Amendment Bill be read for a first time. I nominate the Finance and Expenditure Committee to consider the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224775c6868c234a8295098c37c8311e07\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: No. I\u2019m sorry. I need the member to read exactly what is written on the page.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b03facdf706547b59255cbce4cb4750a\u0022\u003EDAMIEN SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Overseas Investment (Exempt Investment from OECD Countries) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Finance and Expenditure Committee to consider the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s important that New Zealand is an attractive country for investment, which will in turn support greater levels of productivity, jobs, and higher incomes in the future. What this bill does is it removes barriers to foreign direct investment (FDI) from OECD countries, noting for the first time one of our largest sources of investment is not driven by a military ally. It does this by exempting OECD investors from being cleared by the Overseas Investment Office (OIO) with two key exemptions of a national security test around strategic business and it exempts residential land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EHow will this happen? The OECD countries will be added to a list of exemptions in the Overseas Investment Act. There are over 38 countries now in the OECD. New Zealand joined in 1973, and it would be a fitting tribute after 50 years to lead an initiative that countries can connect with New Zealand in a deeper fashion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EThe current regime forces the vast majority of FDI to be cleared by the Overseas Investment Office, which places a needless barrier to investment even when there\u2019s very little risk involved. Foreign direct investment is crucial for New Zealand\u2019s small economy. Numerous studies have proven that high levels of FDI result in higher productivity, higher innovation, and an overall increase in the quality of life for all citizens. To grow and prosper in a competitive world, New Zealand should be a prime destination for foreign direct investment. This bill will exempt investors from democratic countries within the OECD from the need to receive OIO approval to invest here, except in respect of investments around land, residential land, and strategic businesses. These businesses and investments would still be subject to the call-in regime where national security interests are at stake. It\u2019s important that New Zealand is an attractive destination globally and it\u2019s interconnected for investment long term. This provision would streamline the process for investors from OECD countries to bring capital into New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EMembership of the OECD is restricted to countries committed to preserving and advancing democracy and freedom of markets. Many OECD nations are natural allies on national security issues, are the least risky source of investment for New Zealand, and have a large amount of money to bring to the country. They are, therefore, encouraged by an efficiency, allowing resources to be directed to the most valuable use, introducing new technology and management techniques that drive domestic competition and productivity growth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EProductivity is the sole driver of growing prosperity, which is always reflected in rising per capita real incomes. New Zealand has fallen behind in this area, and also it is one of the lower quartile countries for foreign direct investment anywhere in the world. Our markets need to be competitive, and foreign new capital entrants should not be put off. We already face skill and distance disadvantages, and there\u2019s no need to compound that with bad policy. It will also improve our balance of payments and allow our interest rates to be managed in a way that makes them competitive at a wholesale level.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EThe latest data from the OECD shows us that one of the most restrictive regimes is New Zealand, and that\u2019s primarily driven by our incredibly low screening thresholds by global standards. That undermines investment not just by foreigners who are banned from entry but also Kiwis who can\u2019t be assured they\u2019ll be able to sell their enterprises to the highest bidders and usually end up having to sell to the neighbours in Australia for a lower multiple. We attracted 80 percent less foreign investment per person in 2020 than Australia, and we\u2019ve consistently invested less in capital per person than all but one small advanced economy, and all but one English-speaking country. Total foreign investments in New Zealand totalled $500 billion in 2020, of which FDI was $113 billion, portfolio investments $221 billion, and financial derivatives $18 billion, with other investments totalling $77 billion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EAs we know, there are two categories of investment: greenfield, and mergers and acquisitions. But just to give you a simple example, where the Overseas Investment Act is a difficult and almost terrible piece of legislation is that if a New South Wales pension fund and a Victorian pension fund owns 15 percent of national interest transaction, they would have to apply separately, and this would take almost a year to complete.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EIncreased FDI is a feature of a modern, global, economic, integrated country. How much FDI you have indicates how much export growth and R \u0026amp; D targets can be sustained, and also how deep you are connected with the global trade around the world. Because of New Zealand\u2019s shallow capital base, we need more FDI to achieve our economic and social goals. Much of this will need to come from overseas investors. We need more FDI to achieve our political and social goals, create new opportunities, maintain services in health and regional funding of economic growth and jobs, of which one in five are FDI funded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EWe know there are plenty of opportunities for investors, and they\u2019re very welcome here. We need to make them more welcome. Our highly innovative tech sector is the country\u2019s fastest growing. There\u2019s deep tech data, real innovation in agritech, which the Government has supported, and we\u2019re asking for a wider base to be established. A lot of venture capital is involved in software as a service company tech, and many international firms are active here. They just don\u2019t have the stability to invest here in a longer-term partnership. There\u2019s a high quality food and beverage sector, plus big infrastructure builds and data centre developments, and we have a big wood-processing sector, which we continue, under the law, to allow trees to be planted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EAn open investment regime helps keep New Zealand interest rates down as the risk premium associated with investing here is reduced. A move away has a negative impact on our credit ratings and attractiveness to potential trade parties, just at a time when it\u2019s most needed. We do need an extra leg to our economy which will generate income. This is why the purpose of this bill is to fast track that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003ENew Zealand has been built over the last 150 years on the back of foreign direct investment. It needs to be a global player without tax exemptions to track companies. This is our best way to connect with the world and to bring capital to the country. This can be implemented fast. Exemptions to invest here by pre-approved countries will create a really durable FDI policy framework and be an additional lever for the Government and a new source of long-term revenue and taxes. Higher levels of FDI will allow New Zealand entrepreneurs access to greater levels of finance. This will mean they can invest in new technology, innovate, and take on the world. Foreign investment in New Zealand means that capital is deployed where it is needed most, and an increase in the number of valid investors in businesses and entities in New Zealand can only be a good thing. The other way in which foreign direct investment benefits New Zealand is through spill-over benefits that arguably improve everyone\u2019s living standards. This is particularly the case with commercial direct investment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EForeign investment can be associated with negative spill-overs too, and that\u2019s why this bill exempts residential land and is subject to national security tests. We believe that the biggest barrier to foreign investment isn\u2019t a threat by the capital that\u2019s out there, because we have enough capital around the world; it is by politicians and their interests as parties, imposing more restrictions on foreign ownership rules, not working on programmes that relate to this country. In that sense, this bill is apolitical and wants to derive benefits for all of New Zealand. Thank you for the opportunity to present this bill, and I look forward to reaction from the rest of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc725c6cde664a26aa74984fdbc0df1c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc725c6cde664a26aa74984fdbc0df1c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea854761e9f94e059ed4af4cf44e9895\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea854761e9f94e059ed4af4cf44e9895\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Sadly, we won\u2019t be supporting this bill, for three reasons, really: first, it\u2019s unnecessary, and it\u2019s expensive for the taxpayer because it is unnecessary; secondly, it mucks around with our World Trade Organization obligations and our free-trade agreement (FTA) obligations, so it\u2019s quite untidy for our trade relationships and our foreign affairs; and, thirdly, it\u2019s actually dangerous because it doesn\u2019t manage foreign investment risk appropriately, and that\u2019s because it\u2019s based on flawed assumptions about the value base of OECD\u2014or the guarantees around that\u2014and also the whakapapa, if you like, of legal bodies, legal organisations, that can appear to be from an OECD country but actually belong with another national State actor. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EIn my view, this suggestion to have a three-page bill to muck around so much with years and years of really sophisticated negotiations with our trading partners shows the transactional nature with which the ACT Party sees the world. In Labour, it\u2019s about relationship. It\u2019s about getting long and enduring and trusted relationships, and that takes time. It\u2019s not something that can be done with the flick of a pen, and a three-page bill because somebody thinks it\u2019s a good idea to try and give status to certain countries based on some poor assumptions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo the bill is the name of Damien Smith and I congratulate him for getting it drawn, and I really enjoy sitting on the Finance and Expenditure Committee with him. He believes that the bill is going exempt investors and, basically, allow better foreign direct investment into our country, making it easier for investors to invest, to get stronger trade links, and to improve our quality of life. But I would say that Rt Hon Mike Moore, who was our former Prime Minister and the Director-General of the World Trade Organization (WTO) from 1999 to 2002, would probably turn in his grave if he thought we were even considering this. In fact, ACT has voted for those world trade agreements that we are signed up to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo there\u2019s no need for this legislation. We have a fit for purpose overseas investment regime. It does get updated and reviewed when it needs to. Most recently, we did that around the production forestry land-use, and back in 2018, quite high-profile changes were made around foreign investment in existing housing. So there is no need for change. Of course, that\u2019s going to be one less burden for taxpayers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EBut the Overseas Investment Act 2005, which is 207 pages long, does require overseas people to obtain consent for investments in certain New Zealand assets, and it\u2019s taken a really balanced approach to that. It balances the need for foreign direct investment with security and with ensuring that the investments are made in the best interests of New Zealanders. So under that Act, overseas persons generally include bodies corporate that are more than 25 percent owned or controlled by non - New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThe main feature, as I said before, is that the Act is country-neutral. It is about the transactions; it is not about the country. There are a couple of exceptions. Transactions relating to strategic assets, land transactions, and also Australia and Singaporean\u2014certain transactions here. The Minister of Finance can consider country-specific risks when certain thresholds of investment are met, and that is where those relate to strategic assets where they could be a risk to national security.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo that regime, which has been carefully thought through and which is updated and reviewed, as I said, has a nuanced risk-management mechanism. It\u2019s a bit of a sliding scale approach, so it has a backstop national interest test involving sensitive land and strategic assets\u2014for example, if someone was wanting to purchase a major New Zealand media company. It has lower compliance requirements for investments in assets that are more productive and lower risk, and it has automatic exemptions for certain low-risk investments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo that is the regime. It is fit for purpose and there is no need to change it. If we did change it in this way with this three-page bill, it would be really confusing to the most-favoured nation clauses in the trade agreements and WTO obligations. It would send a really weird signal to some of our trusted partners such as Fiji, Tonga, and the Solomon Islands, who are not in the OECD, but we\u2019ve heard this morning, actually, from the Hon Phil Twyford, who\u2019s the Minister for Disarmament and Arms Control, about the role that they\u2019ve played recently in supporting and standing alongside New Zealand in negotiations around the nuclear non-proliferation treaty in New York.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo by taking all of these most favoured nations, which we would need to do under our WTO agreements, and bringing them in through the OECD mechanism, it would send a bit of a signal to our other friends and partners, either that we\u2019re confused or, actually, that they\u2019re excluded. That\u2019s a difficult thing to explain to our Pacific nations, particularly if countries like Turkey then suddenly get this special status in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s also dangerous because the bill would allow investors to access the exemption by incorporating a vehicle in an OECD member country, regardless of where the ultimate ownership is. That could be a non-OECD country, or it could be a country like Russia, like China, or like many others where the value base for the assumption around the security risk of the OECD country is, therefore, flawed. Incorporation can be relatively easy; it doesn\u2019t necessarily require material links to that country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EUnder the WTO General Agreement on Trade in Services and our FTAs, as I said, they would require virtually all foreign investment into New Zealand to be exempt from the Act\u2019s screening requirements. Not only that, it would also link the OECD membership, but by linking that, it would cede some of the control of the screening regimes about high-level investments actually to the OECD, which is a further risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EDamien Smith\u2019s whole argument, really, is based on an assumption that the OECD trade relationships share the same rules-based values as New Zealand does in its free-trade agreements, and that simply isn\u2019t true; it\u2019s a flawed argument. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWe are an open, outward-facing, trading nation. We\u2019ve secured historic free-trade agreements with the United Kingdom, which sees a boost of almost $1 billion to New Zealand\u2019s GDP in unprecedented access for our exporters. We\u2019ve upgraded our China FTA. We have got a pretty solid FTA with the European Union, with a market of more than half a billion high-income consumers. We\u2019ve got the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership and the Pacific Agreement on Closer Economic Relations (PACER) Plus, the trade that supports New Zealand and the Pacific, which would go a bit topsy-turvy, given that they are not in those are OECD countries, should we pass this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ENow, those relationships and those trade agreements have taken years and years to get over the line or to upgrade. They involved very sophisticated negotiation teams, considering very many balanced and nuanced considerations around trade, but also around security, around movement of people, around climate change, and around human rights. They are relationships that take time. They are not transactional in nature, and they are, in fact, what make New Zealand attractive for investment, because it means that when New Zealand goes into these relationships, we do so with eyes wide open, carefully, and knowing that we have a trusted base to work from. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThat is the basis for us being an attractive place to invest, which is counter, in many ways, to the suggestion of this bill, which seeks to very quickly and, I would almost say, flippantly\u2014in a three-page bill\u2014take no heed of all of that history and simply open up a special club of countries that confuses the relationships we already have and makes assumptions about the type of value base that those countries will bring to their trading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo with those remarks, as much as I enjoy sitting on the Finance and Expenditure Committee with Damien Smith, and it is a shame that I don\u2019t think we\u2019ll be considering this bill with him\u2014I commend him for taking the time to think about it. I know he\u2019s passionate about finance and about our economy, but this bill is simply not the way to bring better direct foreign investment into New Zealand, and I cannot commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022 data-id=\u00220229c701dde34648a8e117ba393c5d63\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220229c701dde34648a8e117ba393c5d63\u0022\u003ENICOLA GRIGG (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. The only words I agree with in Ingrid Leary\u2019s contribution, just now, was that it is a shame that the Government can\u2019t support this bill. I rise in support of Damien Smith\u2019s Overseas Investment (Exempt Investment from OECD Countries) Amendment Bill and congratulate the member on the bill being drawn.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EThe National Party does support this bill in principle, and that\u2019s because we do think that there are advantages to it that should have gone to select committee to be teased out. We don\u2019t think it\u2019s perfect in its entirety, but we certainly do think that there are some good ideas in it. And that\u2019s primarily because, as the Labour Party has once again demonstrated, they seem to think that money grows on trees. And most New Zealanders would realise that money most certainly does not grow on trees, that we have to earn it, and it is hard work earning it. In this country, we are small island nation at the bottom of the world. We rely on trade and we rely on foreign direct investment (FDI) and foreign capital coming offshore to our nation to support us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EI, as the National spokesperson for Land Information New Zealand, which oversees the Overseas Investment Office (OIO), have been increasingly concerned, actually, by the performance of the OIO. It is, unfortunately, becoming slower and slower and slower and more expensive for applicants to turn-round applications for FDI, or foreign direct investment. It takes, on average, about 126 days, or 18 weeks, not to mention the millions of dollars for overseas investors to get a response out of the office\u2014whether it is a yes; whether it is a no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EBecause of that, New Zealand\u2019s reputation is becoming increasingly hostile to offshore investors. We had an economist speak to us recently and they gave the lovely analogy that if you were a hotel or a resort developer and you looked at Switzerland and you looked at Queenstown to develop a resort, you\u2019re going to choose Switzerland every day of the week, simply because New Zealand is hostile to offshore investors. As they say, as a small, isolated economy\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268b7c4d27407441da4cefe2dcadc0073\u0022\u003EAnna Lorck\u003C/span\u003E: What about forestry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2cd9e554d534aaf844a2c384eebef94\u0022\u003ENICOLA GRIGG\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Anna Lorck mentions, \u201CWhat about forestry?\u201D This is the same Government that\u2019s looking at shutting off the special forestry test so there won\u2019t be any more offshore investment in forestry. Anna Lorck, well done for pointing that out!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EI have to say that this bill does make a heroic attempt to address some of those issues that I\u2019ve raised. It will exempt investors from OECD nations from having to go through that OIO approval process\u2014except, obviously, in respect of investments in residential land. We do believe that there are safeguards in place, particularly because, by its very nature, membership into the OECD does require a country to demonstrate a commitment to advancing democracy and, God forbid, market capitalism. But we also know that many OECD nations are already our allies on, particularly, national security issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003ESo those are just my short comments to make. We are disappointed on behalf of Damien Smith. We would have liked to have seen this go to the select committee. We do think there are some good ideas. We do agree that there is some stuff that could have been ironed out, particularly any potential impact on existing free-trade agreements and those most-favoured nation clauses\u2014but with those comments, we do support this bill, but unfortunately, Damien Smith, it has already been dealt the death knell.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022 data-id=\u0022beeb4432830d420d8b234f9b96fe18f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022beeb4432830d420d8b234f9b96fe18f7\u0022\u003EIBRAHIM OMER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise to speak on the Overseas Investment (Exempt Investment from OECD Countries) Amendment Bill. In doing so, I rise to oppose this bill. I also want to add my voice to others and congratulate Damien Smith for his hard work in bringing this bill to the House. I think sometimes we have to acknowledge when people work hard to bring their bills to this House. We don\u2019t have to call them names, but we don\u2019t necessarily have to support the bill. So congratulations, Damien, again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EThis bill seeks to exempt investors from OECD countries from Overseas Investment Office approval to invest in New Zealand with an exception, of course, of investing in residential areas. While this investment would still be subject to the call-in regime where national security interests are at stake, the bill still has a lot of flaws. OECD countries are not our only trading markets. We do have other important and significant markets such as China and India, and those countries are not going to be included in this, and that itself is problematic. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to list some of the things that the bill intends to do. The member in charge said the bill has an ability to reduce barriers to investment from other like-minded countries, improving the quality of enjoyment by all New Zealanders. And the second point he made is that he goes on to say that New Zealand has highly restrictive laws which put up needless barriers for foreign direct investment with the overall impact of reducing investment and making us poorer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EI think that these are really pessimistic points to make, because we actually have a very successful trading regime in New Zealand, thanks to our hard-working trade Minister, who has been overseas quite a few times. Individually, he has signed a lot of free-trade agreements (FTAs)\u2014the European Union, the UK, and a quite few others are under way as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EThe reason why we don\u2019t support this bill is simply it violates several FTAs that we have with several countries, and, in doing so, it neglects New Zealand\u2019s obligation to those countries. ACT is actually a signatory to this regime and the member is, of course, a member of the ACT Party. The bill would not achieve its purpose, because non-OECD countries, such as China, would gain the same overseas investment access through the most favoured nation clauses in trade agreements and World Trade Organization obligations. So these are all the things that are going to restrict this bill. New Zealand has actually a very satisfactory system for overseas investment, which has undergone recent amendments. I think my colleague Ingrid Leary successfully has listed some of those things. So I think this bill is really a waste of taxpayers\u2019 money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EI would like to mention some of the successful productive investment regimes that New Zealand has. The Labour Party Government is committed to maintaining New Zealand as open and outward-facing as a trading nation. We are supporting exporters in pursuing an ambitious trade policy to help New Zealand businesses succeed overseas. We are upgrading our free-trade agreement with China and secured an historic FTA with the United Kingdom, which adds $1 billion to New Zealand\u2019s GDP and unprecedented access to its markets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003ENow, as we reconnect with the world, we are delivering a programme for trade and tourism delegations into a number of priority international markets. We are also focused on concluding some free-trade agreements that are under way now. Labour will continue to negotiate modern, high-quality, free-trade agreements which promote adherence to environmental and labour markets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003ELike I said in my introductory remarks, the OECD countries are not the only important trading partners. We have significant markets and there is a lot of work under way to consolidate our trading relationship with those markets. On that note, unfortunately, I oppose this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u00228dfa1daca1e0403c83a9467d289858b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228dfa1daca1e0403c83a9467d289858b4\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. I just want to acknowledge the kind remarks that have been made about the member who has put forward this bill, Damien Smith. Of course it\u2019s important that every member of this House has the opportunity to put forward legislation they believe in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe Green Party\u2019s view, and longstanding view, is that the economy is a wholly-owned subsidiary of the environment. We have limited natural resources. Land, in particular, is limited. We need to use that in a way that is sustainable and equitable. In order to achieve that, we need to reverse some of the trends from the 1980s and 1990s, which were all about enabling certain people to get enormously wealthy off exploitative types of activities, which include ownership. You know, foreign ownership is not good for New Zealand. So the Green Party is not going to support this bill. We\u2019d like to see more restrictions on foreign ownership of strategic assets in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe Green Party absolutely supports an inclusive approach to migration and to relationships with other people in our country\u2014you know, we want to be part of the global community. But enabling foreign ownership of strategic assets in New Zealand does not help New Zealanders. Foreign investors often are rent seeking; they are exploiting and extracting profits, not creating wealth, and there\u2019s a really important distinction about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe economy is just one part of how humans interact with one another and how we achieve support for our societies. There\u2019s a whole lot of work that people do that is not paid, that does not pay off. The idea that, somehow, private foreign ownership of things is helping New Zealanders is, unfortunately, wrong. I think most New Zealanders inherently understand that. Of course, the Green Party has long advocated for a much more sustainable approach to trade and a fairer approach to trade. We want our trade agreements to prioritise fair pay and a sustainable use of natural resources because, right now, the way that global trade is set up, it enables certain people who already have most of the wealth to extract even more of that. What we end up doing is exporting pollution, exporting, you know, poor labour relations\u2014to the detriment of people and the environment in New Zealand and around the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo, unfortunately, this bill is not a bill that the Green Party can support. We will continue to advocate for a sustainable and inclusive approach to the economy, which recognises that money is just a symbol\u2014it is a symbol. No, it doesn\u2019t grow on trees; it\u2019s created by banks. What we need to recognise is what creates true value for our people. Without clean water, without clean air, without healthy soil, we have nothing. Without sustainable forestry products that are available to people here in New Zealand, we\u2019re not able to build houses. We saw what happened when there are global supply chain shortages. Even though we are growing wood here in New Zealand, it was difficult to get processed timber for builders here in New Zealand. Some of that is the legacy of the 1980s and 1990s, taking this neo-liberal approach, opening up New Zealand, selling off assets that had been built up by generations of citizens and residents. We don\u2019t want to see that trend continue, so the Green Party will continue to advocate for a different approach, one that will protect our climate and protect people, and get fairer outcomes, not simply enrich those who already have the most wealth and who have no stake in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u002299d9daec5f4e4532a4776730dbb0b0b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299d9daec5f4e4532a4776730dbb0b0b4\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for this opportunity to take a call. First of all, to Damien Smith, congratulations for getting your bill drawn. I think that you deserve the respect of knowing why we\u2019re not going to support it and why I\u2019m not going to support it, so I\u2019m going to just go through that now for you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThis is an issue about a regime which has been set up for good reason. As the Hon Julie Anne Genter has said, land is of particular significance. You can\u2019t take back land that you sell elsewhere. So while I appreciate that it is often good to have investment in our country, and I don\u2019t want to stop that entirely, I do want to take it really seriously before that land is alienated from New Zealanders. So, for me, at the moment the Act actually is really doing a good job of striking that balance. It looks at that land and it looks at the sensitivity of it. It recognises that it is taonga and actually then it sets up a different threshold for people coming in from overseas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThe problem with this bill that I see is that it lists a whole lot of countries as if it\u2019s suddenly somehow a good thing that they come in, when, in fact, the focus of the test is not that. It\u2019s not about which country. It\u2019s about: is it a good thing that this land will be owned or alienated in these circumstances? So I think we\u2019ve got the test right. I don\u2019t want it opened to a whole raft of countries in the OECD. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EBut, further, I became concerned when I looked at the bill that it didn\u2019t actually restrict in the way it suggested it was going to anyway, because there were so many ways around it. A company could set up in the OECD, and suddenly there they would be from a different place. All sorts of people could structure around this, and our land would be sold without the kind of actual thought and thought process that we have set up. I just cannot see that as being a good idea. So I don\u2019t accept that there are safeguards in this bill that stop that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI do think that what we have in place at the present time is not a broken system; I think it\u2019s a good system. I think it\u2019s a very sound way of approaching a problem but also an opportunity. I don\u2019t think it stops investment; it just simply makes people pause and think and re-evaluate, and evaluate in the circumstances of that potential investment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s obviously an issue with the free-trade agreement arrangements. There\u2019s also an issue with most favoured nation status. So those are the things that back up that. But, basically, it comes back to something really fundamental. This is sensitive land. This is important. It\u2019s interesting that even the member excludes residential land. There has been a lesson learnt there. But this is a situation where there\u2019s a lot more to it than that, and I don\u2019t want to see farmers alienated in the way that they have been in the past. I don\u2019t want to see those kinds of things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI\u2019m kind of surprised to see Nicola Grigg supporting the bill when, in fact, I know that she comes from a background with a long history in farming in New Zealand. I think those cultural things are really important. They\u2019re not just important to M\u0101ori; they\u2019re incredibly important to people who\u2019ve been here and they\u2019ve had a connection with the land and they don\u2019t want to lose it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m not as severe in terms of the position as my friend Julie Anne Genter has been. I don\u2019t need to accuse anyone of rent seeking. I would question sometimes the value of that economic input, because I don\u2019t think it\u2019s always as strong as it\u2019s made out by an ideological position that the ACT Party takes\u2014I just don\u2019t think it is\u2014but I do think what is very, very important here is that we don\u2019t undermine a regime that has been set up for good reason. Lessons have been learnt and now they\u2019re consolidated in an Act, and I don\u2019t want to see that actually alienate land from New Zealand. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3e834411eb34ffea94e9e748bc2c59b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3e834411eb34ffea94e9e748bc2c59b\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Todd Moller.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbd6dd9b12fe491ba617dd2036d13362\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbd6dd9b12fe491ba617dd2036d13362\u0022\u003ETODD MULLER (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E \u201CMull-er\u201D, Mr Speaker, but despite that inaccuracy, Mr Greg O\u2019Connor, I do want to acknowledge your elevation. I think that\u2019s a great appointment. You\u2019re a fine man with a few years on the clock, and, as I get closer to your years, I remember that that comes with wisdom, and it\u2019s good to see someone wise in the Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003ELook, I just want to acknowledge Damien. It\u2019s pretty clear that this lot are going to boot this out at its first hurdle, but thank you for providing an opportunity to shed a light again on the Government\u2019s irrational fear of foreign investment. Because what we\u2019ve heard today over the last five or six speeches is just framing up their concern that somehow if you have capital that isn\u2019t grown in this country, then that somehow is going to be a challenge to our sovereignty. They don\u2019t understand New Zealand\u2019s place in the global world. Their view is a constrained one, a hermit kingdom one: we\u2019ll drag our feet at opening up to the rest of the world. Access to capital and the nature of capital in terms of global flows are something that they simply don\u2019t understand, are not attracted to, and they would rather not have New Zealand participate in a global economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a shame that it appears that your bill is not going to get the rigour and discussion that would occur in a select committee. But thank you again for allowing not only this House but those that watch these proceedings to get an insight in terms of their vision for the country, which is pretty unattractive. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022 data-id=\u0022231b135a71fd46eeb8e85a5da08a8bde\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022231b135a71fd46eeb8e85a5da08a8bde\u0022\u003EANNA LORCK (Labour\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I would also like to acknowledge Damien Smith for having his member\u2019s bill drawn. I find it difficult, though, to fathom how as a country we don\u2019t see a reason to put foreign investment into land through the investment office. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003EPart of this conversation seems to be that we are not open for business or open for foreign investment. As someone who comes from the region of Hawke\u2019s Bay, where we have seen jobs grown and foreign investment into business activity that meets the special-benefit test for New Zealand, I see a positive environment and messages out to the world that where there is a strength and opportunity to grow jobs, to see the best of our primary sector doing well through foreign investment, we embrace it, and we have done so, and history shows that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003EBut I find is absolutely ironic to hear from the National Party that they seem to think that it\u2019s OK to have foreign investors come in and buy up our rolling hill country land with no sniff test\u2014and it is a sniff test\u2014no sniff test. When I look at the amazing information that we\u2019re able to get, we get the information coming through the Overseas Investment Act, and through that we can have a look at the investments, we can see whether this will benefit our country, we can see how much it is important to work in those areas. But, no, the National Party seems to think back in the time when they sold off thousands of hectares of beautiful rolling hill country to foreign investors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003EBut we can also see, through the Labour Party, that this Government\u2014this Government\u2014embraces foreign investment where it matters for New Zealand. That\u2019s how we grow our economy. We\u2019ve made sure, through calls from farmers, actually, to tighten up the investment around making sure we plant the right tree in the right place for the right reason. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003EActually, when I sat on that committee, when we talked through that on the Finance and Expenditure Committee, we heard many reasons around why it\u2019s important to have these extra tests. New Zealanders do not want our land sold off without there being scrutiny. Scrutiny is what we do as a Government; it\u2019s our responsibility to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s why we can\u2019t support this bill. That\u2019s why I don\u2019t see there being any reason to change what we are doing now, where we are making sure that we do look at it and we make sure that those have a special interest, a benefit to New Zealand. We\u2019ll make sure that we grow the right jobs, we work with foreign investment, we attract business, and we show that we are open for business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s why we can\u2019t support this member\u2019s bill, but, in doing so, as we go forward today in speaking about this, somebody else\u2019s member\u2019s bill, through a voting process, as we go through this first reading, may get the opportunity to be pulled out at the end. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003EBut as we go through\u2014and I think we\u2019re about to agree on this side\u2014we cannot support this. We cannot support New Zealand\u2019s land being sold off without scrutiny. That\u2019s the job of the Overseas Investment Office. They\u2019ve got a job; they need to be given it. New Zealanders respect the fact that land needs to go through this scrutiny. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I cannot support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbf8d4b1ae354a7285c9ce06b58715ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbf8d4b1ae354a7285c9ce06b58715ad\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The time has come for me to leave the Chair. The House stands adjourned until 2 p.m. today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022083183c12c3f412f459fa6df1d8d00984fd9000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 12.59 p.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"