"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b17966a1821841ce85d63c3a0d258f1a\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 27 SEPTEMBER 2022\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224dde135ca84e49068c46bfca4f361d27\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 27 SEPTEMBER 2022\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c3b461b1b68c4267adb6adb38e6c87bb\u0022\u003Ekarakia/prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228f6328f1c0b947bb9198ffd2f49f8db6\u0022\u003Ekarakia/prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002232d3228cc0c544a4b80794f8f6a54313\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002232d3228cc0c544a4b80794f8f6a54313\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, I\u2019ve asked Naisi Chen to say the prayer in Mandarin, celebrating New Zealand Chinese Language Week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022 data-id=\u00222b86dd64af8f46c5bcf2492f5e48d882\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b86dd64af8f46c5bcf2492f5e48d882\u0022\u003ENAISI CHEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E \u5168\u80FD\u7684\u4E0A\u5E1D\uFF0C\u4E3A\u4F60\u8D50\u7ED9\u6211\u4EEC\u7684\u6069\u60E0\uFF0C\u732E\u4E0A\u6211\u4EEC\u7684\u611F\u6069\u3002\u629B\u5F00\u6240\u6709\u4E2A\u4EBA\u5229\u76CA\uFF0C\u6211\u4EEC\u627F\u8BA4\u56FD\u738B\uFF0C\u5E76\u7948\u7977\u5728\u6211\u4EEC\u8BAE\u6848\u7684\u8BA8\u8BBA\u4E0E\u51B3\u7B56\u4E2D\u5F97\u5230\u4E3B\u7684\u6307\u5BFC\u3002\u4F7F\u6211\u4EEC\u80FD\u591F\u4EE5\u667A\u6167\u3001\u6B63\u4E49\u3001\u4EC1\u6148\u548C\u8C26\u900A\u7684\u6001\u5EA6\u5904\u7406\u56FD\u4F1A\u4E8B\u52A1\uFF0C\u4E3A\u4E86\u65B0\u897F\u5170\u7684\u798F\u7949\u4E0E\u548C\u5E73\uFF0C\u5949\u4E3B\u57FA\u7763\u8036\u7A23\u7684\u540D\u7977\u544A\uFF0C \u963F\u95E8\u3002\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002232e930395dbf4e8da722388a0328216e\u0022\u003Epetitions, papers, select committee reports, and introduction of bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228319e65c14484c78bdc8fafa833cf68e\u0022\u003Epetitions, papers, select committee reports, and introduction of bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00222af93ec117a0467ea21be0f4c8a0b80c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222af93ec117a0467ea21be0f4c8a0b80c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A petition has been delivered to the Clerk for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00227b9059d8ffc745a2b91168cea1f4d7bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b9059d8ffc745a2b91168cea1f4d7bf\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: Petition of Layba Zubair requesting that the House urge the Government to reform the current consent laws.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022d80c464b5501487191a6785945550115\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d80c464b5501487191a6785945550115\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That petition stands referred to the Petitions Committee. Ministers have delivered papers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00223aa9b60107bd4b4098259ab7cb42814f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223aa9b60107bd4b4098259ab7cb42814f\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EArmed Forces Canteen Council, report for the year ended 31 March 2022\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Purposes Fund Board, annual report for the year ended 31 March 2022\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EEducation New Zealand, Statement of Performance Expectations 2022/23 and Statement of Intent 2022-26.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002272ef35e332da4fdbac7ff768077ec8cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272ef35e332da4fdbac7ff768077ec8cf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those papers are published under the authority of the House. Select committee reports have been delivered for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7058337ac7942209ed8eb2ee1429b68\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7058337ac7942209ed8eb2ee1429b68\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: Reports of the Petitions Committee on the petitions of Alexandra Birt, Brenda Tairi, Helen Paddison, Ingrid Shaw, and Zorawar Mann.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb2e9cd6191e4d918c4bd1fe2120a44b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb2e9cd6191e4d918c4bd1fe2120a44b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No bills have been introduced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002269788c6c48f0401599064f29fafbc350\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225afd2662a64640a5a00805da974dec27\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220d9e63cdf0a84ab4976659f6b1fff945\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u00220b933f7427aa42d9833bb288a0d144b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b933f7427aa42d9833bb288a0d144b2\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER LUXON (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all of her Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u00220fa194aa623e4400982e6583e6238b61\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220fa194aa623e4400982e6583e6238b61\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E \u8C22\u8C22, Mr Speaker. Yes, on World Tourism Day, it is worth noting the Government\u2019s work to reconnect New Zealand with the world. Overseas visitor arrivals exceeded 100,000 in July. There\u2019s been a 20 percent month-on-month increase in capacity from key US destinations, with a total of five airlines flying to and from North America, offering up to 60 flights per week. By summer, that will be eight destinations, and we\u2019ll see the return of United Airlines and American Airlines. We know Aotearoa New Zealand remains a top global visitor destination and it\u2019s pleasing to see our hospitality restaurants, hotels, ski fields, and tourist attractions filling back up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b11a0f53c4a047d39e84bfd60ae0ab5d\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Government introducing a 2.8 percent tax on all salaries and wages to fund an income insurance scheme during a cost of living crisis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fa62ae941b64466b2cf51db653678c3\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Firstly, to correct the member, he\u2019ll well know that this work that we\u2019re doing\u2014alongside the Council of Trade Unions and BusinessNZ\u2014would not be due to come into place until 2024 or 2025 at the earliest. I think also the really important point to make is that every year approximately 100,000 New Zealanders will lose their jobs. But we know in times of crisis, like, for instance, the global financial crisis (GFC), that number was 200,000. Each occasion where we have seen economic crises, rightly you\u2019ve seen Governments of different persuasions\u2014the National Party included\u2014stepping in to make sure we don\u2019t see significant economic scarring. Either way taxpayers pay, this is a way of ensuring there\u2019s that certainty for New Zealanders around their future should we see such economic crises or, indeed, health issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228702e3978d4c4fc18f26ad50b1e7fe7c\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Does she accept that the 2.8 percent levy her Government is proposing is a tax on every Kiwi with a job, and why is she introducing a jobs tax during a cost of living crisis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e673a9fdc1c148d7ac13351c75a84222\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d be interested to know whether or not the member considers the ACC levy in the same way. And the second point that I would make is that when it comes to quantums, final decisions have not yet been made. But given 100,000 New Zealanders lose their job everywhere\u2014and everyone in this room would know someone who has been affected through significant health conditions such as, for instance, an experience with cancer\u2014giving them surety around their future is something that many New Zealanders would welcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c114f0dae984f358a4bb3863c11a11e\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Government planning to rake in $3.5 billion more in tax from workers and employers every year when Kiwis are already struggling with the cost of living crisis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226da49ed7c88f4d4780c80f68bbb9b78b\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: When it comes to the cost of living issues that New Zealanders are facing, as are many other citizens around the world, we\u2019ve worked very hard to make sure that we are, through targeted spending, working hard to decrease those impacts. We\u2019ve done that through the cost of living payment, of which there is a final payment to be made; a 25c reduction in fuel costs at the pump, through to January next year; half-price public transport; increasing the family tax credit. The difference between us and the National Party on these issues, where they\u2019ve opposed those moves, is they would prefer decreases to the top tax rate. We do not believe now is the time for such measures; it would also be inflationary and would not benefit those who need it most.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a181cdcbdb8f4e14af17ba311fa34363\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: How is it fair that a Kiwi worker earning $60,000 will end up paying an extra $830 a year in tax under this scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbfb1c865ebe4d02b34ad4607dc96b70\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Again, as I\u2019ve already said around the social employment insurance, of course we had not finalised some of the final measures around that and nor would they be set to come into play in 2024 and 2025. But this country has now experienced the economic shocks of the GFC, the Christchurch earthquake, the pandemic. On each occasion, the Government\u2019s stepped in with taxpayers\u2019 money in order to lessen the impact of those and lessen economic scarring. We are one of the few OECD nations that does not have a comparable scheme. This is looking to ensure that we fill that gap.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d606be12d92d4f888fdafc4b6802d4c1\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: What year did the Future of Work Tripartite Forum first float the idea of this scheme, and are there any members of this House who were members of that at the time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287cea7da77a44877a0e94b7e570325fc\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: The member makes a good point. It was several years ago that social insurance was first raised, and, of course, some members in this House were part of things like business advisory councils that, if I recall, at that time did have a focus on training and support for workers. But now that Business New Zealand is involved, there seems to be some distancing from that piece of work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022932c8dbf497740699594b86c14e77473\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: How much of the cost of the 1.4 percent tax on employers is expected to be passed on to workers through lower wages, and how much will be passed on to consumers through higher prices?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298b7d661d7ed456daff58f5694538833\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t believe that most OECD nations who have a scheme such as this would draw that same comparison that the member is making. The second point I would make is that I know the member has launched a petition today, and what I would again point out is that ongoing work is still being undertaken on the final details. I would also, again, just reiterate that most New Zealanders will know someone who, in their lifetimes, will either lose their job because of issues within their workplace or because they have a significant health event. Most New Zealanders do not have things like income insurance, and so we should be thinking about what we can do to lessen the economic scarring that our economy feels through those events, but also that a worker experiences. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269dfb55fe6de49888b2439f949cbcd5a\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t it the case that this Government\u2019s spending is just so out of control it\u2019s running out of new things to tax, and, with the jobs tax, Kiwi workers are just the latest victim of her finance Minister\u2019s inability to make tough decisions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274aee797bc8e4b308a991d6d8e59264f\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: No. But if you want to start talking about the facts, how about debt at half the rate of Australia\u2019s, record low unemployment at just over 3 percent, more than 215,000 New Zealanders have taken up free apprenticeships, a 61 percent increase in apprentices since the pandemic, 3,800 young people in He Poutama Rangatahi, 5,200 in Mana in Mahi, and 66,000 children lifted out of poverty? We are focused on how we can support New Zealanders and workers through hard times; that member is not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228de8b5c2b6e145ca8697ee0996c06804\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Is she committed to pushing through this jobs tax, or do hard-working Kiwis have a chance to stop it like they did with her KiwiSaver tax, her wealth tax, and her capital gains tax?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022527bc659e48a44528d55844697a5f7f3\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Again, I really question the proposition the member is putting forward, and, again, what I would also point out is that whilst that side of the House went through the global financial crisis and the Christchurch earthquakes and still chose to do nothing to fix the system, we\u2019ve gone through a pandemic and we are determined that New Zealand will be better prepared to look after its workers in the future. That member is happy to pay out in times of crisis, but not to fix the foundations of our country; that is why National is not good for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d39e7d48ea4748fcafbd875b1b07f463\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Prime Minister seen reports that the last time New Zealanders faced a cost of living crisis the Government of the day increased GST, hiked up ACC levies, increased fuel tax, and started taxing KiwiSaver contributions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7a3f94b2f664e80a9ba480e67106491\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that\u2019s right. In fact, they increased quite a few taxes and never ever told the electorate about it. When it comes to the work that we\u2019re doing, we\u2019ve quite openly said this is going to take time, it won\u2019t likely be in place until 2024/25, and we are quite happy to have the debate with New Zealanders about how we can best prepare to support them in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002271b3bc464dfb4cbca08669e52b3072b0\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022ffdf0339f0bb44a8a90583dfe37d3d94\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ffdf0339f0bb44a8a90583dfe37d3d94\u0022\u003EBARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: \u8C22\u8C22 and Talofa, Mr Speaker. What recent reports has he seen on the New Zealand economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022b74ef25ae3424097b1cfbda89c0d59fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b74ef25ae3424097b1cfbda89c0d59fd\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Activity in the manufacturing sector is expanding at a faster pace in the last month. The BNZ-Business New Zealand Performance of Manufacturing Index rose to 54.9 in August\u2014its highest level of activity in over a year, and above the long-term average of 53.1. BNZ\u2019s economists said the result suggested an improving tone around underlying growth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdc62ab71107436ca398497fd2783119\u0022\u003EBarbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: What does the report say about the drivers of growth in manufacturing? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1199dccd6064f3983ef0091b54a2521\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The pick-up was led by new orders at 59.2, the highest level in this area since July 2021, while production at 54.6 was at its highest point for 2022, and employment expanded to 53.6. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222242f8ed81f745a9a41124061c1d2435\u0022\u003EBarbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: How does this level of activity compare globally? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb8091d162b843b2a82bb50b8644aa25\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Internationally, expansion in manufacturing slowed in August to 50.3, from 51.1, so New Zealand\u2019s expansion at 54.9 compares well. It compares with 51.1 in the US and Japan, while manufacturing actually contracted in August in the UK, China, the EU, and Australia. It is tough times for many people out there but there\u2019s every reason to be optimistic about the New Zealand economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b80523f72976460ca10e1d2cbc128995\u0022\u003EBarbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: What enactions has he seen of activity in other sectors and its impact on the economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd6432ed5a124d3b8caf226b4d0a1309\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Activity in the services sector has also picked up pace. The BNZ-Business New Zealand Performance of Services Index rose to 58.6 in August, and above the long-term average of 53.6, with significant growth in sales and new orders. Combining the activity levels for services and manufacturing sectors, the composite suggests annual GDP growth of up to 5 percent in the September quarter. On that basis, BNZ\u2019s economists have upgraded their forecast for GDP in the September and December quarters. Again, every reason to be optimistic about the New Zealand economy going into summer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f6ce96acfb9495788185f350d93fd21\u0022\u003EBarbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: What other reports has he seen on the international context for the New Zealand economy? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263a38b9a83f54888a4e5c5a50aa9a2ad\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The OECD\u2019s latest interim economic outlook has revised downwards its forecast for global growth due to Russia\u2019s invasion of Ukraine. It now expects global growth to slow to 2.2 percent in 2023, from a forecast in June of 2.8 percent. Inflation is expected to ease but will remain at high levels for longer. Our economic plan is working for New Zealanders to make sure that we are well placed to respond to the volatile and uncertain global environment. Unemployment is near record low levels, exports are rising, the economy is bigger than before the pandemic, and our debt levels are among the lowest in the world. There\u2019s every reason\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b28638ef3524d779165c3f26ae14ed5\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: They don\u2019t feel it though, eh?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224b2a2950f074326a029b563071592fa\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014to be optimistic about the New Zealand economy, Mr Luxon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220ddd9d531a274b6b83d495023206d95b\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0c6d30c2b0d4174bae82b306db7ee2f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0c6d30c2b0d4174bae82b306db7ee2f\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: \u4F60\u597D, Mr Speaker. Does she stand by all her Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef04bb36fc8642e18ad1eb7d5088ceca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef04bb36fc8642e18ad1eb7d5088ceca\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e5d9889b93c47e39aec6d2774820944\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does she believe her Government has done enough to curb the cost of living when the Reserve Bank reports that inflation expectations are for inflation to be at 4.86 percent a year from now and ANZ have increased their peak official cash rate forecast to 4.75 percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a636263e87d453eaa94d9c63c36adea\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: You will have seen that this Government has taken a number of measures to try and ease the impact of inflation on households. At the same time that we\u2019ve done that, we have been very focused on ensuring that that support is both timely and targeted so as to ensure that we don\u2019t exacerbate inflationary pressures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eebab6a3a8f44e84ae0a173851d74f65\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Why aren\u2019t these policies working?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc8d8f5fd936476eb6d5f9c2ff9d41d6\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, the reasons that inflation has increased in the way that we\u2019ve seen are many and, for the most part, tend to be international factors. The fact that we are in amongst the lowest set within the OECD is testament to that. When you look at, for instance, the impacts in the UK, the United States, those we compare ourselves to, they\u2019ve seen much higher rates of inflation. That doesn\u2019t mean that we shouldn\u2019t do what we can to ease the pressure on households.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ebf2aa93c9647deb87031820c5daafb\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister agree that a higher official cash rate (OCR) will mean higher mortgage rates, and is she aware that nearly all banks are now offering fixed-term rates over 6 percent, floating rates headed for 7 percent\u2014a point and a half more than Australians are paying?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279dcaeaec7954567af638ec095d161af\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I am aware of the impacts of the increase in the official cash rate. I\u2019m also aware that many other economies like ours are seeing their central banks increasing their OCRs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cde58f270bb4494af22869a5e32b9a0\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does she stand by her Government\u2019s announcement of an income insurance scheme, and is she aware it will cost a worker on the median wage of $59,000, $1,634 per year on top of those other costs they\u2019re currently facing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d508f945bb8422c877adb468606ce47\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: To answer both parts of the question, firstly, as I reiterated in my first answers, whilst we\u2019ve been working on an income insurance scheme, the final details have not at this stage been finalised. The second point: the earliest we would see implementation is 2024-25. We are looking to be well beyond some of the impacts we\u2019re seeing in inflation right now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271027ea3935446478c2f9e4dd3f69e40\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Is she aware that such a worker on the median wage with a partner in part-time work, children, and paying a typical rental or average mortgage, would get about $780 a week from the Ministry of Social Development right now, and would also get $780 from income insurance, meaning that families dependent on the median wage are no better off but pay an extra 2.8 percent tax?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b5ec4b5b31b43449252b7c01bff51f9\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I come back to my last answer, around the final details of a social insurance scheme, but a broader point that I would make is that that same family could be amongst the 100,000 to 200,000 people that lose their jobs in times of economic crisis. At the moment, we all acknowledge that we have a system that for those, for instance, who have been in work, the significant economic scarring of job loss, the economy and those individuals feel deeply and for long periods. That is why most OECD economies we would compare ourselves to have some form of scheme that is similar. The second point that I would make is that, God forbid, any family member ever experiences job loss where the main household income earner, for instance, experiences a prolonged medical illness like cancer. At the moment, we do not have levels of protection other than the safety net of our benefits scheme, and for many that leads to significant hardship. We are trying to improve that but also the worker insurance we have as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f84b30f06fdf4c96905f080d5a98e25d\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Which of the things the Prime Minister just said make any difference to the basic fact that, under her proposed scheme, someone on the median wage will pay $1,634 in additional levies and if they lose their job, or in the horrible situation of getting cancer, as the Prime Minister mentioned, they would get the same $780 that they\u2019re already entitled to on a benefit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b37a3b4d4c4f42a2bb52cf0d202d49b8\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Many of those family members wouldn\u2019t find themselves eligible for a benefit. Secondly, like ACC, it would allow them to receive, for instance, as was currently proposed, up to as high as 80 percent of their lost income. That is a significant difference to what\u2019s available to them now. But, as I\u2019ve said, I\u2019m happy to discuss and debate the finer details once they\u2019ve been resolved and finalised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a4ea7b67a3447b89452626621b5157d\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does she stand by Grant Robertson\u2019s statement this morning, \u201CThe mood of the boardroom has never exactly been a Labour Party love fest\u201D? And, if so, why does she think business leaders rate her and her Government so poorly?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229627baf2e4bc4e4e963c0aac8688a9a4\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Of course I support the Minister of Finance and the statements that he\u2019s made. I also support the decisions that he\u2019s taken that have seen us, despite having experienced a one-in-100-year economic shock, having some of the lowest unemployment we have on record, a stronger economy than before we went into COVID, a lower percentage of people on benefits than after the global financial crisis, more apprentices, a reduction in child poverty\u2014the things that we measure ourselves against.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fb072a47efb64b768dc7357bb219f094\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0390319ab174c9caf7de33c92ef8936\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0390319ab174c9caf7de33c92ef8936\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Is it Government policy to introduce an income insurance scheme; if so, how would this scheme be funded?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00226be1d3772ab643a389303eb9d102fa2c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226be1d3772ab643a389303eb9d102fa2c\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E The Government is committed to the introduction of such a scheme, although final decisions on the scheme\u2019s design have not yet been made by Cabinet. But the earliest that the scheme would be introduced is in the 2024-25 financial year. We are one of only a few countries in the OECD that doesn\u2019t have a scheme of this nature, meaning that when redundancy or health conditions and disability results in someone losing their job, as occurs for more than 100,000 New Zealanders a year, they get far less support than those in practically any other advanced country. The scheme was developed at the urging of Business New Zealand and the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions to provide an enduring solution to protect people and the economy after job losses like those seen in the Canterbury earthquakes and COVID-19. In answer to the second part of the question, the set-up costs of the scheme are being met by the Government while payments to New Zealanders who lose their jobs and to operate the scheme, will be funded by levies on employers and employees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225004494b13564421ab74549569ef4044\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Well, does he agree with the Salvation Army, who said of the Government\u2019s proposed scheme, \u201CIt will result in a two-tiered approach to welfare that is more likely to increase inequalities than reduce them.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb551e5b85aa4101a8a062a58994e7a8\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not. What I think the scheme will do is fill a gap in our social security system, a gap that Governments of all shades have had to fill with ad hoc measures in the past. More than 100,000 New Zealanders lose their job every year. Not everyone has redundancy agreements. Not everyone can afford income insurance. This is about making sure that social security in New Zealand is provided for all. And on the other part of the member\u2019s question, I\u2019d say in this House we\u2019re proud of the fact that we\u2019ve increased benefits in 2020, 2021, and 2022. The member\u2019s crocodile tears on that don\u2019t work because National opposed that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ec32fbfd5394d93a9252f892436f3ab\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: How much would the levy remove from the pay packet of a worker earning $60,000 a year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f47c31385f504e9a923c2215a4de8e97\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t have those numbers with me. But what I can say is for a person earning approximately that much, they would pay around $16.12 a week in levies. And if they lost their job or if they got cancer, they would receive $928 per week in insurance payments. This is about making sure that every New Zealander is protected from the worst thing happening in terms of redundancy or getting a serious illness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a2e04e5734945dca4fbd89cd30d0086\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Why does he want to force New Zealanders to pay more tax when we already have a welfare system and when they\u2019re already struggling with rising prices and mortgage payments?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f584cab44e04420a985474d1f9a4e59\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: What I want to make sure is that New Zealanders are protected in the event that they lose their job through redundancy or a health condition. The member\u2019s own party did this in the wake of the Canterbury earthquakes. We did it in the wake of COVID. It is better to have a long-term scheme, as almost every other country in the OECD does, rather than an ad hoc scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e484b786a414e3fba2b065ddfdf4125\u0022\u003EHon Michael Wood\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that one of the reasons that a social unemployment insurance scheme has been supported by both Business New Zealand and the Council of Trade Unions is that in addition to providing income protection, the scheme as consulted upon would also provide supports to assist workers who have been displaced to get back into the labour force, thus preventing long-term unemployment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220d15ee6f24d4cd98b5784bb53912beb\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: That is exactly correct and it is one of the driving reasons for the support for this scheme in other parts of the world. Active labour market policies are an important part of the scheme. People do have obligations under the scheme to be able to take up work and take up training opportunities. This is done all over the world because it is the right thing to do to protect people in the event of the worst thing happening at their work place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e89dc3f44474720b9fd0a0bd6716642\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that New Zealand is experiencing record worker shortages and does he understand that, in that context, the last thing New Zealand workers and businesses want is to pay yet another tax to pay for a gold-plated welfare scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022365be9e81b5248c18c1c268a9378bae8\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: As I said in my primary answer, the Government does not intend to introduce this scheme until at least 2024-25. And I\u2019ve got a prediction for you that, when we get to that point, the National Party will do just as they did with KiwiSaver, just as they did with the super fund, just as they did for Working for Families: they criticise it in opposition, they vote against it, and then they keep it. And they would do exactly the same thing if, God forbid, they got into Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffa1ed0757414f20a69f2df9dedea00b\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Minister\u2019s answer to every challenge to ask New Zealanders to pay more tax and to make a grab on pay packets that are already going backwards in real terms?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208c856ab8e1340fcae7af3f28dd5cfb7\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I repeat again for the member: the scheme is not designed to be introduced until the 2024-25 financial year. What we have done is work with Business New Zealand, work with the Council of Trade Unions, to come up with a scheme that supports people when they lose their job through redundancy, that makes sure they\u2019re looked after if they get cancer and they can\u2019t work, and that helps people retrain. This is a conventional social security measure used all over the OECD, and I think it is the right thing for New Zealand to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220d9ae756c2564f0bb84c42c2cf9b9891\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022 data-id=\u00223c79baeb17eb463f8e5bb2375602d29b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c79baeb17eb463f8e5bb2375602d29b\u0022\u003EMARJA LUBECK (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: \u8C22\u8C22 and talofa, Mr Speaker. What action is the Government taking to target resources more effectively towards schools with greater educational challenges?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u002264af7f09428b4856a3b61e10aaba6a78\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264af7f09428b4856a3b61e10aaba6a78\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E The Government\u2019s delivering on its promise to introduce a new way of funding schools through an equity index, making sure that the right support is going to the schools and the students who need it the most. Last week, we released school funding for next year, and nearly 90 percent of schools will see an increase in their funding as we shift away from the old decile funding system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c8a1f0971b8488989d69b3a5efa775c\u0022\u003EMarja Lubeck\u003C/span\u003E: How will this change in funding benefit the parts of the country that need it most?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250c79bdb2b4b41e4b4b3a56072241209\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Schools and kura in Te Tai Tokerau have the biggest average increase of around $223 per pupil while schools in areas like South Auckland will also receive a significant average increase of around $70 per pupil. This change in the way we allocate school funding means that those schools that have the highest concentrations of disadvantaged students will get the biggest increases in funding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc9bb74c2952406db57084b000d49b2d\u0022\u003EMarja Lubeck\u003C/span\u003E: Will any schools in 2023 be worse off as a result of these changes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bdfa7ff95834589adf011830babd172\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: No. We are putting in place transitional funding that means that no school will receive a reduction in their per-pupil equity and isolation funding due to these changes. In future years, any reduction is capped at a maximum of 5 percent of their total 2022 operational funding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220077b6d5adaa4d9c80696ad4b1179530\u0022\u003EMarja Lubeck\u003C/span\u003E: Will the introduction of the equity index also increase access to other Government programmes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c51ae32880634eb2b36db9b3a523de6a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Around 155 schools will now be able to access additional support through the extra cash instead of school donations scheme as a result of the introduction of the equity index. If those schools and kura decide to join the scheme, the family and wh\u0101nau of around 47,000 extra young people will no longer be asked for donations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e21f5bfbf03e434b82300fcf903dae71\u0022\u003EMarja Lubeck\u003C/span\u003E: Is eligibility to any other Government programme also increased?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224dfa8d18c08f4489926c77ccc9d8a194\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. The changes will also see a further 24 schools and kura join the Free and Healthy School Lunches Programme. That means that around another 3,000 children will be eligible to receive a free healthy lunch at school. This is another example of how the Government is levelling the playing field so that all kids get a fair shot at education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f6ac70cc61f54be280be8b2256074df6\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Police\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u0022aee2f61d518f4439b47022b3c5ddfaa4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aee2f61d518f4439b47022b3c5ddfaa4\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Whangapar\u0101oa)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: Can he confirm that there were several violent robberies experienced by members of the public over the last week, and is the Government\u2019s approach to retail crime working? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022238cfa848ac04cdd8550632f2212384c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022238cfa848ac04cdd8550632f2212384c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, and, like most other New Zealanders, I\u2019ve been disgusted by the recent scenes of offending. This behaviour is completely unacceptable and it has no place in our country. The Government takes these crimes very seriously. I understand that police have arrested 14 young people in Auckland and Waikato over the weekend alone. Police are ramping up the roll-out of crime prevention schemes, and we\u2019re putting more resources into prevention so that these individuals get on to better pathways rather than getting into trouble in the first place. Police are actively following up these events to ensure that the young people involved face the consequences of their actions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022124af47d6c65463cbbc29b9379b7cff6\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Since announcing his policy around prevention, how many additional young people have been brought into that programme? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db490159117940b79f71152a43c9e859\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: That was only a couple of weeks ago and we haven\u2019t got the latest updated numbers, but I do expect that we\u2019ll be getting regular updates on that, so I\u2019m happy to provide the member with the numbers when they do start to come through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229df22c760c5f4b309edcaa64b4976869\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s his response to a retail worker at St Lukes whose husband now has to tell them to be careful at work and who says that \u201CThe whole thing is just a disgrace, the Government, \u2026 people getting away with it, \u2026 it\u2019s just really sad in our country.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae78b4bd0ebd4167a7e3568dc2f293c2\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I absolutely think that the situation those retail workers have been put in is unacceptable; no amount of target hardening, though, is going to solve that problem. If you look at the smash-and-grab that happened in the mall in the Waikato in the weekend, it was truly horrific. A group of young people\u2014a significant group of young people\u2014with hammers went into a busy shopping mall in the middle of the day and undertook serious criminal offending in front of a whole lot of onlookers. There is no amount of target hardening that\u2019s going to stop that type of behaviour. Therefore, we do have to make sure that we are doing everything we can to get these young people back on to the straight and narrow and prevent the offending in the first place, and we will ensure that those young people who have undertaken this type of offending are identified and that the follow-up action is taken and that they\u2019re held accountable for their actions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fe398f701bb423aa97dd5da35fa6c8a\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: How many offenders for these aggravated robberies and ram raids have been convicted? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d670344eed5e4298bf3e7ef520d59bcf\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I haven\u2019t got the numbers of convictions; I have got the numbers of prosecutions, though. So if we look at Auckland since the beginning of the year, 73 of these types of events have happened there. There have been 42 prosecutions, 43 referrals to youth aid, and seven cases remain under active investigation. In the Counties Manukau area, of the 64 events, 50 prosecutions have followed that, followed by 23 youth referrals, and seven remain under active investigation. Of the 71 in the Waikato, 40 prosecutions have followed, nine youth referrals, and 12 are under active investigation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272878013619b489898717c83f0713f9d\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. My question was very specific, and the reason why it was directed at convictions is because that\u2019s where the real consequence lies. The Minister has come to this House and he is actually unable to tell this House how many convictions there have been in relation to these ram raids and aggravated robberies. I think it\u2019s a very basic question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9980a0c7906401ea28f9b47ed4d7477\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, he did start out the answer\u2014you can go back and look at Hansard, but he started out saying that he didn\u2019t have those figures and presented other information that he thought might be helpful, I guess. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9102f219dec4ade96099c43357dd164\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: What percentage of offenders are being apprehended and charged for these offences? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ade4058644db4ed8910466ed62d6c912\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I just gave those numbers. If the member cared to listen to my previous answer, I went through the number of ram raids, the number of young people who have been prosecuted, the number of young people who have been referred to youth justice as a result, and the number of cases that are still under investigation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022221a99e76f174955b678817ae0249550\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll give the member an extra question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9a5919c231b48138c1755fd3ef1296e\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: How many of the offenders responsible for these ram raids and these aggravated robberies and the tsunami of violent retail offending in the last year\u2014how many have been charged? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d616402601f14742b08219d77b4ccf3a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: In Auckland City, there have been 73 incidents, 42 prosecutions, 43 youth referrals\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c66898a56604b99a236a8df6d760412\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. The original supplementary was that I asked for a percentage of how many of the offenders have been charged. He\u2019s just giving me a number, not a percentage. That\u2019s an important number in terms of how much offending has been going on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219dda33528d84766a1fdf14c2baa4ea1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You can\u2019t require the Minister to answer exactly the way you want it, and you certainly can\u2019t do it by interrupting him, because you don\u2019t know that he might have given that at the end of that answer. I don\u2019t know, you don\u2019t know, and now the House will never know, I guess. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227419ef20941548cc8ece4011254822fe\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Agriculture\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u0022f39061d06dec42f5917d83524dc15e24\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f39061d06dec42f5917d83524dc15e24\u0022\u003EJO LUXTON (Labour\u2014Rangitata)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Agriculture: What recent announcements has he made about supporting sustainable agricultural practices?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00228aab5bd4f7e54360ad5224e5ab7c4e68\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228aab5bd4f7e54360ad5224e5ab7c4e68\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Last week, the Government announced our participation in a new agricultural initiative with partners in Latin America and the Caribbean. This is a four-year climate-smart agricultural programme, driven in partnership by the Ministry for Primary Industries and other agencies in the Global Research Alliance on agricultural greenhouse gases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e507b7f5f2b34b5ab590e68d4e0cde88\u0022\u003EJo Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: What will this initiative aim to achieve?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb85def2a7754a0cafe3851ce67cd85f\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: The programme supports the region\u2019s policy makers, researchers, farmers, and indigenous producers in their understanding and use of low-emission and productivity-enhancing agricultural systems, technologies, and practices. This Government recognises that climate change is a global issue and that we are contributing $10 million in partnership with Latin America and the Caribbean because we know our collective interests depend on adapting to and mitigating the effects of climate change on our environment. New Zealand does not exist in isolation, and it is key that we are able to share our knowledge of technology and innovative practices with other nations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259dc324db27b405093af6e7888b35d2a\u0022\u003EJo Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: Well, how does this fit with the Government\u2019s domestic commitments to sustainable agriculture?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f7dc998a0374e75b08e02dcfe6d0cf9\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Our food and fibre sector exports see lifting sustainability as vital to creating export value. This Government is committed to supporting that effort, given how vital the sector is to our economic security. We\u2019ve worked in collaboration with farmers and growers, through the He Waka Eke Noa partnership, towards a pricing system for agricultural emissions and a pathway to reduce them. This is a world-first, and many other countries are following with great interest. In addition, we\u2019ve committed $55 million over four years to establish the On Farm Support service. This is an on the ground service which will focus on reaching out to primary producers who are not currently well-linked with industry initiatives or advisers, to help them access information they need to meet incoming regulatory requirements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222099540186b94cb0bbdc1c311e6c6e8e\u0022\u003EJo Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: What other Government support exists for sustainable agricultural projects?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd38d11d8e0a4246b78d085254e71940\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: More good news. Look, through the Sustainable Food and Fibre Futures fund, the Government has co-invested, with business, over $517 million to support problem-solving and innovation. There are now over 200 Sustainable Food and Fibre Futures projects exploring a wide range of opportunities to diversify our exports, capture value, and progress our sustainability credentials.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acb7f6a722ed442ca2ca133e2dacc34f\u0022\u003EJo Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: What projects have recently been funded through the Sustainable Food and Fibres Futures fund?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f1a1f0fe1c44c79ab6f922f185b7afe\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Just this month, in fact, we announced $17.6 million to support the Sustainable Food and Fibres Futures fund for the Whenua Haumanu project with Massey University, working with Lincoln University and many other agencies, including AgResearch. It\u2019s a $26.1 million programme and will be New Zealand\u2019s largest ever study on the sustainability of our farming sector. The data collected will enable farmers to make informed decisions on the financial and environmental benefits of adopting regenerative farming practices, if they should choose to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002224f3842ee16b4142be20190dfc723169\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Housing (M\u0101ori Housing)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0f85dea2078480c8a913cf30c27abc8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0f85dea2078480c8a913cf30c27abc8\u0022\u003EDr ELIZABETH KEREKERE (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Housing (M\u0101ori Housing): Is he committed to providing capacity-building and financial support to iwi and hap\u016B to deliver housing for people in need in their rohe?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u002284e0f38b704446abae2ba724107fc717\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284e0f38b704446abae2ba724107fc717\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Associate Minister of Housing (M\u0101ori Housing)):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. In Budget 2021, this Government made the largest investment into M\u0101ori housing, committing $730 million to deliver M\u0101ori housing supply and infrastructure. To date, we have contracted 739 houses, repaired 286 houses, enabled 1,112 infrastructure sites, and provided $8.6 million in capability funding. This Government is delivering on the promises we made to work in partnership with M\u0101ori and to deliver a better M\u0101ori housing future for our wh\u0101nau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022303fd01405504052bc1365e33f695920\u0022\u003EDr Elizabeth Kerekere\u003C/span\u003E: Is he aware that the Government engagement on the Te Waimana Kaaku housing programme was stopped, and, if so, what does he say to the many wh\u0101nau who were relying on housing being provided through this programme and who are here today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e01e97fc5cc4dd3be937fd7824f2677\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: I say to those wh\u0101nau, we are still committed to working with hap\u016B and iwi to ensure that M\u0101ori housing aspirations are met. I\u2019ve checked with my officials to see the interactions made between my department and the wh\u0101nau involved, and I say to them\u2014and to the member who has asked the question\u2014the commitment is still there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223dd353404f6f4ea9afaaacd7aecaf0cd\u0022\u003EDr Elizabeth Kerekere\u003C/span\u003E: What secure housing alternatives would he propose for kuia and koroua such as Hine Boynton who lost her house to a fire and Tangi and Edward Munn who live without power and sewerage, all of whom are in their 80s and all of them would have had housing provided through the Te Waimana Kaaku housing programme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022346e4097d188447c835a1b380de58b06\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Housing aspirations right across the country, while they might have similar themes, are still different. I\u2019ve always made the analogy that if you look towards a whare on a marae, they all look the same but the carvings inside are different, wherever you might go. Therefore, bespoke remedies to those challenges are really important, and why I say that is because, for example, in T\u0101maki-makau-rau, the access to supply to be able to remedy those challenges are a bit more readily available than, say, Waimana Valley.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022149d4795b119495b8957dc51191fcadb\u0022\u003EDr Elizabeth Kerekere\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement that \u201CI\u2019m committed to ensuring that we continue to partner with hap\u016B and iwi to deliver more affordable housing for M\u0101ori.\u201D, and if so, does this include partnering with hap\u016B to deliver housing for mothers like Wilhelmina Waitiri Hiakita-Butler, Gemma Hiakita, and Torerenui-A-Rua Te Pau who were struggling to provide secure housing for their wh\u0101nau, and two of whom lost deposits because Te Waimana Kaaku housing programme was stopped without notice?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a02fd507d35441b7b1676d2fd1202ff5\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: I continue to reiterate my support for M\u0101ori housing aspirations. I want to draw the member\u2019s attention to a particular initiative called Toit\u016B Tair\u0101whiti, which brings together hap\u016B and iwi right across the Tairawhiti to make sure that we can meet their housing aspirations. In fact, there will be even further exciting announcements with respect to that partnership in the very near future. I also want to point out to the member and this House that through Wai 2570 stage one hearing into M\u0101ori housing, it was made quite clear that M\u0101ori aren\u2019t starting at the same pace and at the same time as every other sector in this country. In fact, it shows quite the inequities that have plagued M\u0101ori housing aspiration for many years. This Government has stood up to that challenge, made a commitment, committed dollars, and are getting on with the mahi. There is lots more mahi to do. This isn\u2019t a perfect system, but I am still committed to making sure that M\u0101ori housing aspirations continue to be met.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fa853dbb4ed4aedae4d0a91eb4d9e7c\u0022\u003EDr Elizabeth Kerekere\u003C/span\u003E: Will he instruct relevant Government agencies to reconsider the approach to supporting Te Waimana Kaaku housing programme so that these wh\u0101nau and others can have secure local housing provided by their own hap\u016B?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022722b743ed6a74d128d6c97428d117496\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: I make the commitment to that member and to the members listening in this House that I\u2019m more than happy to meet with Waimana Kaaku to continue to discuss their housing aspirations. But I do want to be very clear: we are committed to M\u0101ori housing aspiration. Our investment has made it clear, the way that we have continued to work makes it clear, and what I\u2019ve asked my officials to do is look at the interactions that have all of a sudden created this perception that this has been stopped\u2014what\u2019s been told to me by the advisers is actually at no point in time have they seen any withdrawal of support for this matter, which makes my commitment to meet with the wh\u0101nau even more solid in the House today, sir.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ce1155fc577470498d711e280ea9e2d\u0022\u003EDr Elizabeth Kerekere\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree that the Crown has an ongoing obligation to uphold the tino rangatiratanga of hap\u016B over k\u0101inga, and, if so, how is the Crown upholding this obligation, with respect to Te Waimana?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f357deb9d284c8eb830c4dbb79b8217\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, we are. I want to present this particular document to you, Mr Speaker, and to the House called He Tapuae which works with Tuhoe to look towards how we can support their housing aspirations. What was made clear through this particular engagement is it was multi-Government agencies working alongside Tuhoe to realise those aspirations. In that particular document, it goes on to say that as chosen by the He Tapuae agreement, that there are commitments in T\u0101neatua, Te Umuroa Marae, Ruat\u0101huna; \u014Cp\u016Btao Marae, Ruat\u0101huna; Papak\u0101inga Marae, Ruatoki; Te T\u014Dtara Marae, Ruatoki. So yes, the commitment is there to support M\u0101ori housing aspirations. And I\u2019ll reiterate the point I made in the number of questions that have already been asked: my commitment is there, and I\u2019m happy to meet with them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022afd2bc32de164843a10bcd422c50fb75\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Tourism\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022 data-id=\u002213c9038799684e73aaff495e685d4e56\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213c9038799684e73aaff495e685d4e56\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE (Labour\u2014Hamilton East)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Tourism: \u4F60\u597D, Mr Speaker, and \u5927\u5BB6\u597D to members in the House. What reports has he seen on the tourism recovery?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u002233ded0d34c7c43de8b6edf4ad2e013fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002233ded0d34c7c43de8b6edf4ad2e013fe\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH (Minister of Tourism):\u003C/span\u003E \u8C22\u8C22, Mr Speaker. On World Tourism Day, I am happy to report, for the first month since March 2020, the number of overseas arrivals exceeded 100,000 in July, with over 130,000 overseas visitors arriving. I am very optimistic that our tourism recovery is now well under way and the outlook for tourism for the coming summer is promising.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2e5f7f410494b4a9892fce03af04d1a\u0022\u003EJamie Strange\u003C/span\u003E: Has he seen any reports on increased airline capacity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eeb34ae7b78d4f84b1248e556e8175e4\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: Auckland Airport today announced that United Airlines and American Airlines will resume flights to Auckland in October, adding nearly 14,000 seats, or around 20 percent seat capacity month on month, between New Zealand and North America. Come November, Auckland will have five airlines operating direct flights to eight destinations, making it the most connected Australasian city to North America.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261f3373fd727424abbb35ca3f6582c5f\u0022\u003EJamie Strange\u003C/span\u003E: What reports, if any, has he seen on Queenstown\u2019s tourism recovery?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222be7a4b2b5b74a10aae4dcdd34bc7d3a\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: Beautiful Queenstown continues to lead the tourism recovery, buoyed by a strong ski season with winter arrivals this year reaching at least 90 percent of the same period in 2019. I\u2019m pleased that the Government has been able to provide $63.3 million, on top of the wage subsidy and resurgence support payments, to help tourism in the Queenstown region.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256b5df80afb44a0190692dd864cc0f9f\u0022\u003EJamie Strange\u003C/span\u003E: How is the Government supporting the tourism sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a66ec6824344326a4562e2ac28cc376\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: Along with providing significant support to the tourism sector to get through the pandemic, we are now helping the sector recover through a $54 million innovation programme and the draft Tourism Industry Transformation Plan which will transform the tourism sector and strengthen its workforce.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d12cc2ac121457ab3befe7a141058bf\u0022\u003EJamie Strange\u003C/span\u003E: What feedback has he seen on New Zealand\u2019s tourism recovery?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bd8e852b90b4c7f828d5db1e4f69201\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: I note Greg Foran, Air New Zealand CEO\u2014just back from Air New Zealand\u2019s new non-stop Auckland to New York service\u2014said he had never been more optimistic about the future. And I quote, \u201CWe\u2019re seeing optimism in travel return, not just in bookings but in the joy of getting out to experience the world.\u201D I certainly share Mr Foran\u2019s optimism; we all should.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229a1ef69b9e1c4dae8172ff0da303059d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Broadcasting and Media\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u0022301be21107ab4f6ab941984c2e7d1da2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022301be21107ab4f6ab941984c2e7d1da2\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Broadcasting and Media: \u591A\u8C22, Mr Speaker. Does he stand by the Aotearoa New Zealand Public Media Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6fca8ef36654c72aa3a59869fa86d6d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6fca8ef36654c72aa3a59869fa86d6d\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Minister for Broadcasting and Media):\u003C/span\u003E The Aotearoa New Zealand Public Media Bill seeks to strengthen the delivery of public media services in New Zealand. The media landscape is changing rapidly, both here and internationally, with increased global competition and changing audience behaviours. The legislation supports the Government\u2019s objective to ensure that all New Zealanders can access relevant and trusted public media content across the platforms they use. So the answer is absolutely yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e124ed9d360c4d4ebc35e0dbc17a8cb5\u0022\u003EMelissa Lee\u003C/span\u003E: Is he aware that the combined net worth of TVNZ and Radio New Zealand (RNZ) is less than the $370 million he will spend merging the two entities into Aotearoa New Zealand Public Media (ANZPM); if so, can he explain how spending more to merge those entities than what they are worth is a good use of taxpayers\u2019 money during a cost of living crisis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f41194900b54e87972b153ba47fac7e\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Unfortunately, that member fails to understand what the problem is. The problem is not about the budgets or the numbers; it\u2019s about what\u2019s happening in Aotearoa at the moment. So, yes, we understand all the numbers and the figures, but the most important thing here is that we have a changing landscape in terms of the media. We have people disappearing down rabbit holes. We need to have a trusted public media entity\u2014that\u2019s the absolute priority\u2014that reflects all New Zealanders. People can\u2019t see themselves. They can\u2019t hear themselves. They want to see all New Zealanders and hear from all New Zealanders\u2014M\u0101ori, Pasifika, Asian, young people. It\u2019s not just about the dollars.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a3226f3de284bc1935b342f81bf011d\u0022\u003EMelissa Lee\u003C/span\u003E: What response does the Minister have to submitters to the select committee who say, and I quote, \u201CThe editorial independence guaranteed by the bill is illusionary\u201D and that there is an unacceptable level of ministerial control that transcends anything currently imposed on RNZ and TVNZ?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c77f6366c6c04b219fd0d1497fe9eeee\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: I say those submitters are wrong. My intention is that the Aotearoa New Zealand Public Media should have extremely strong protections in relation to editorial independence. What is in the bill is intended to strengthen the current editorial independence that TVNZ and RNZ have. The Crown entities framework provides a well-tested set of mechanisms to enable entities to be set up at arm\u2019s length from the Government while providing clear, transparent levers to hold those entities accountable for the delivery of their statutory objectives and other responsibilities. What the Opposition don\u2019t understand is that we encourage people and agencies to give feedback. We don\u2019t mind criticism. This nonsense about restricting everyone\u2014say that to Ruth Harley who\u2019s been very clear about some of her views. Say that to Larry Parr from Te M\u0101ngai P\u0101ho. Say that to M\u0101ori Radio, who cut us no slack. We don\u2019t mind criticism. We\u2019re not all sensitive like that useless lot across on the other side.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf16389c08484dd0ad28f3710a4b9cd0\u0022\u003EMelissa Lee\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister believe his statement at the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee\u2014and I quote him: \u201CWe need them to change their attitude. We need them to understand what we want.\u201D is exactly the sort of interference that submitters have raised concerns about\u2014that the editorial independence guaranteed by the bill is illusionary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be6fb47a36664f30ab6d280745943ad9\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a sad statement from the member. I absolutely stand by that comment at the select committee, and what we require is a cultural change. Of course, that\u2019s very hard because 99 percent of the Opposition haven\u2019t got any culture, so they don\u2019t understand what we\u2019re talking about. We\u2019re trying to bring together a commercial entity and a non-commercial entity, and it\u2019s not just about the dollars, dollars, dollars, which is all about what the National Party is saying. The member has chosen to interpret my response to the select committee in a very strange, ugly, and unique way. So I\u2019ll be much clearer to her: I\u2019m working really collaboratively with TVNZ at the moment. I have a great relationship with its chief executive, Simon Power, whose only weakness was that he joined the National Party earlier in his life. TVNZ currently has a commercial focus while the new entity will focus on public media, which will require a shift in terms of their view. Why? Because it\u2019s not just about the dollars, dollars, dollars. It\u2019s about the people. It\u2019s about hearing ourselves. It\u2019s about seeing ourselves. We don\u2019t just want to look at what the National Party has put up. This is about seeing the new Aotearoa, the new New Zealand that the Leader of the Opposition wouldn\u2019t have a clue about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d226722199674f30b36083ffe22a1581\u0022\u003ENaisi Chen\u003C/span\u003E: \u8C22\u8C22, Mr Speaker. How will New Zealand audiences benefit from the creation of the new public media entity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225cf7b24466954f31a00d3134d543768a\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: What a wonderful question. [Interruption]\u2014if I could just have a second here. Providing public media services is the prime objective of Aotearoa New Zealand Public Media. This isn\u2019t just about entertainment, as the National Party would have it. Public media is also about news\u2014independent, quality journalism\u2014and for New Zealanders, they need entities they can trust. Our culture will be better reflected, with more accessible content and entertainment, and all New Zealanders\u2014all New Zealanders\u2014will be represented. Our democracy will be better supported through people being able to find trusted news and information and being better informed, and our public media system will be fairer, with a wide range of New Zealanders, including young people, having access to relevant content.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224111408592404bcaa49a1f4f326b4dea\u0022\u003EMelissa Lee\u003C/span\u003E: \u591A\u8C22, Mr Speaker. What exactly is the New Zealand taxpayer, during a cost of living crisis, getting for the $370 million the new public media entity will cost, when the money could instead be used to clear the list of patients waiting for cancer medication, with enough left over to address some of the tens of thousands of New Zealanders sitting on the worst surgical wait-list in at least a decade?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad6c5fe64c2c4af7bafe2fa14a1775a9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: In so far as the Minister has responsibility, he may answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7d4e6f8d2104181a603df86aabf0f54\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Well, we could do a lot of things with a lot of money, couldn\u2019t we? We can\u2019t wait for every social ill to be cured before we invest in our public media. We can\u2019t wait. If you apply that type of rationale, we\u2019ll shut down the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra, we\u2019ll shut down kapa haka, we\u2019ll shut down anything and everything till every social ill is fixed. The reality is we have to get on with life. We have to have a symphony orchestra. We have to have a great public media system. We have to have kapa haka. You have to realise there\u2019s more to life than numbers and dollars, and so don\u2019t pull that sort of rubbish on us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221770c0efb88345c09b89fa03a4b4f4a8\u0022\u003EDamien Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the New Zealand Media and Entertainment (NZME) statement on the TVNZ-RNZ merger that they have significant concerns that the establishment of ANZPM would significantly undermine the sustainability and viability of commercial media; and has any opposition voiced to the merger by NZME, Stuff, Sky, or TVNZ led to any reconsideration of the Government\u2019s position on the merger; and does he believe that $109 million in untagged funding for the new public entity is likely, in the words of Stuff, to grossly distort the market; and what responsibility does he think he has, as Minister of broadcasting, to leave a thriving, competitive market?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252ccf7a98bcf488c99ce681982509f6c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Any one of those, and only one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4ae0400b30147fb87270f88bdbc67f9\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: I think all the questions are good questions, and I\u2019ve met with Stuff and a number of the entities. They\u2019re fair questions, because there are some worries out there. This entity will survive with collaboration. We need to work in tandem with the different organisations. We may have to work out what is enough, in terms of the commercial dollars. Nobody wants to shut out the smaller players. I think the member asked reasonable questions. Some of those questions will be answered through the select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a25165e8564e40348a151f19523db4ad\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Education (School Operations)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3fb063b35e64042953f232ffc87c0a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3fb063b35e64042953f232ffc87c0a0\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Education (School Operations): What action is the Government taking to relieve teaching supply pressures in the primary and secondary schooling sectors?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u002245d1730715754b7c83eeb06f04b874d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245d1730715754b7c83eeb06f04b874d0\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Associate Minister of Education) (School Operations):\u003C/span\u003E Last week, I announced an investment to boost teaching supply through targeted recruitment packages. This investment boosts existing and proven programmes designed to rapidly fill projected gaps in the teaching workforce.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222493994247cc4458bb48c5729b4e4366\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: Why was the investment needed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022984afda18e7348d8a5cd8294fe9cf107\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: A combination of population growth changes, COVID-19, and border openings has indicated future pressures on teaching supply. We\u2019re getting ahead and taking action now. We know that some students have missed crucial time in the classroom throughout the last 2\u00BD years. That\u2019s why we\u2019ve funded additional teaching and tutoring services. We need teachers to deliver these catch-up learning sessions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222944b0b6dee043ec9fff46af94ee87d2\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: What initiatives have been further invested in to recruit international teachers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022732b5cdab3304088a9690e348e29de31\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: To boost overseas teacher supply, we are extending two grants: the Overseas Relocation Grant and the Overseas Finders Fees. These grants compensate teachers and employers for the additional costs of emigrating or hiring abroad and make New Zealand more competitive with international counterparts. We\u2019re also streamlining processing times, and fees are being waived for migrant teachers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238e016fe294d4c8ea41f76c12ff4ff0f\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: What initiatives have been further invested in to encourage New Zealanders to enter the teaching profession?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb263568beb44149bd4b1f0630057989\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: With over 27 years in the profession, I can attest that teaching is a great job. Growing our domestic teaching workforce is critical for our kids\u2019 education, so we\u2019ve increased the number of Career Changer Scholarships, funded an additional 100 places in school-embedded Initial Teacher Education, and expanded the Beginning Teacher Vacancy Scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6d2402334a342f793e5611927fb0c81\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: How many teachers are projected to be recruited due to these initiatives?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022580b19229f9a4a44ac076435fc6bfced\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: By investing a further $24 million in these initiatives, we plan to deliver close to a thousand additional teachers. We expect to recruit approximately 700 internationally and 300 domestically. While international teachers bring a wealth of cultural diversity and experience to our schools, it\u2019s also important that we\u2019re building our pipeline of Kiwi teachers at the same time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002214da2027094e4c8bbb96833135100b39\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Immigration\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022 data-id=\u00224b48af71884b448092718b9814af49ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b48af71884b448092718b9814af49ca\u0022\u003EDr JAMES McDOWALL (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Immigration: Has he seen BusinessNZ\u2019s 2022 survey that found that 87 percent of respondents said that it was either \u201Cdifficult\u201D or \u201Cvery difficult\u201D to fill job vacancies and 63 percent attributed their difficulties to immigration restrictions, and is he confident that the Government\u2019s immigration work visa policies are fit for purpose?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u0022671ea59bf06b4a7381907281525d4b86\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022671ea59bf06b4a7381907281525d4b86\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I have seen reports from that particular survey, and some of the results are not entirely surprising, given that questions asked employers to reflect back on the conditions over the past one year. So, obviously, over a large part of that period, New Zealand\u2019s borders have been closed to protect the country from COVID-19. Over much of that period, of course, we have also experienced record low unemployment. None the less, our border was fully open from 31 July and we\u2019re getting on with the job of making sure that our immigration sector does support the need for skills across the New Zealand labour force. Since the accredited employer work visa (AEWV) system opened around that time, we\u2019ve accredited over 12,000 employers, processed over 55,000 job checks, and approved nearly 5,000 visa applications. Under the residents visa 2021 programme, we have now provided residency to over 100,000 migrant workers, including 11,000 construction workers and 3,700 health workers. We\u2019ve also approved 30,000 working holiday visas. We know that global labour shortages have created a challenging climate for international hiring, but I\u2019m confident that the work that the Government is doing to rebalance our immigration system is helping to address skill shortages while also clamping down on migrant exploitation and making sure that workers do have fair wages and conditions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252a16202e08d407c8922673209cbc96d\u0022\u003EDr James McDowall\u003C/span\u003E: How does his answer to my primary question alleviate employers\u2019 fears over chronic workforce shortages, given that top CEOs and directors responding to BusinessNZ\u2019s 2022 survey ranked the Government\u2019s immigration policy as one of their top concerns?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a10c788c39694ea389536f4d745005a6\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: What we can do in respect of this is talk to the facts, some of which I outlined in my answer to the primary question, which is that the Government has now, through the job check stage of the accredited employer work visa, given employers\u2019 permission\u2014this is since July\u2014to recruit more than 55,000 migrant workers. That actually is an indication of a system which is highly facilitative. Our system, under the accredited employer work visa, effectively requires two big things for employers to be able to recruit. One is that they are accredited employers, which means that there is not a record of migrant labour exploitation or abuses of workers\u2019 rights, and I\u2019m sure that is something that all members of the House would support; and, secondly, that there is a two-week period of advertising for a job in New Zealand to ensure that there is a New Zealander not available to do the work. Subject to those conditions and subject to paying the median wage, those employers, in large numbers, are being given the ability to recruit internationally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b606da8bc11747f289299541f7dca5a3\u0022\u003EDr James McDowall\u003C/span\u003E: How are the accredited employer work visa and the working holiday schemes fit for purpose, with Queenstown Mayor Jim Boult stating that \u201CThe number of people on work visas dropped from 3000 to about 1000.\u201D, in an article that also stated that immigration policy is \u201Cfrustrating efforts to get overseas workers\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f865b121724a461eb5f844673cd6ddce\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: Without reference to the time period that Mayor Boult was speaking about in that respect, I can confirm that there have been 30,000 approvals provided by Immigration New Zealand for working holiday visas. In fact, recently I made announcements which doubled the number of working holiday visa places for countries with capped schemes, which received a very strong and positive response from the tourism and hospitality sectors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ca74659eddb4b7ba9d773f0da56ec1a\u0022\u003EDr James McDowall\u003C/span\u003E: What does he say to a business owner with four restaurants in Auckland who can only operate one at a time and at reduced hours because, like many others, he can\u2019t get enough chefs in under the accredited employer work visa scheme unless he is granted an exception to policy on a case by case basis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d99eb1cbfb345c3b43d0c6c8f84de6e\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s question is not entirely clear. Employers through the accredited employer work visa scheme are able to recruit people into those roles without a particular exception, so there may be a particular situation with that employer that the member is aware of that I am not. But I can confirm that, in that category, employers are able to recruit through the accredited work visa scheme. But what this Government does say is that through the AEWV, we are turning away from the era in which our immigration system was simply used as a mechanism to bring in as much low-wage labour as possible into the country. We do put in place a median wage requirement and I\u2019m confident that increasingly employers are making those investments to make sure that we support our workforces.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ba0f31602e54fdabac4ae214e8f31ff\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Of the 3,700 health workers he just described, how many were registered nurses or midwives?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022918e77fcec0e40e9839f5962036dd556\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: That is a question which I would be happy to answer if the member was willing to either put in a primary or send that information to me, I will be able to get that for him. But a relatively large number of nurses have now been approved under the accredited employer work visa scheme. The last time I checked, 301 registered nurses had been approved, and the month of August, in fact, saw the highest number of nurses given approval to enter New Zealand across both the critical purpose visa and the accredited employer work visa schemes of any month this year, which shows that we are making significant progress in this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd49b294a1594771b2211f0d076a3c58\u0022\u003EDr James McDowall\u003C/span\u003E: Why should businesses have confidence in the Minister of Immigration, given comments such as those by Simon Watson, New Zealand Hot House managing director, who stated in the media: \u201CWe need to free up the immigration pathways. Wellington seem to not be listening, not understanding, and clearly don\u2019t care anymore.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223061fac7f6154007b64c29285b538a81\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, in amongst legitimate public discourse about the immigration system, it would be useful from Opposition politicians for them to be a little bit more specific about what they actually mean by freeing up the system. Because as I have just outlined, the Government has, in respect of working holiday visas, doubled\u2014increased by 12,000\u2014the numbers of working holiday visa workers being able to come into New Zealand. The accredited employer work visa scheme is a simple and facilitative scheme which has given permission to recruit 55,000 workers since about July. What we know is that the other side of the House, through their policy, wants us to take away any requirements to pay those workers a decent rate for their wages. And that is something that we do not agree with on this side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002243d85bcc778b4f83aa90c66700cf690a\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220be44bad6e04421bb1457bbc31cbab03\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00220189db732b9841b39575adc71488a68f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220189db732b9841b39575adc71488a68f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I move, That the sitting of the House today be extended into the morning of Wednesday, 28 September for the first reading and referral to select committee of the Criminal Activity Intervention Legislation Bill; the second reading of the Fisheries Amendment Bill; the third reading of the Screen Industry Workers Bill; the first reading and referral to select committee of the Fire and Emergency New Zealand (Levy) Amendment Bill; and the third reading of the Animal Welfare Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f3c527dfe4e64d0b999336f4cef48be9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e79f91c850c64aa8900ba2b453f2304b\u0022\u003EDeposit Takers Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e673cb8fc75647fe9ecd5cbba92bb3ba\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022c35f0fda62944795a515f6e02fda6f97\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c35f0fda62944795a515f6e02fda6f97\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Deposit Takers Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228de63f1ac9ab4711b54d87ac8acc26b4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4248e9fe2064d6fb9798d14006924ce\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Deposit Takers Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Finance and Expenditure Committee to consider the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis is the third bill that results from the Government\u2019s review of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Act 1989 that we commenced on coming into Government at the end of 2017. The first two pieces of legislation in that regard were the Reserve Bank of New Zealand (Monetary Policy) Amendment Act that changed the objectives of the Act, and also included maximum sustainable employment alongside price stability as the objectives of the bank, and also changed the decision-making structure of the bank on monetary policy to be a monetary policy committee. The second piece of legislation, the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Act 2021, dealt with the structural matters pertaining to the Reserve Bank, including changes to the structure of the board and the way in which decisions are taken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis final piece of legislation in the trilogy to respond to the Reserve Bank review is the Deposit Takers Bill. This bill is important because it does clarify and reinforce the role of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand as a prudential regulator operating at arm\u2019s length from the Government so that financial policy and supervisory decisions do not become overly politicised. At the same time, the Government\u2019s interests are recognised, with the bill providing some touch points for ministerial engagement and requiring the Reserve Bank to explain its actions through a variety of accountability documents. The bill also integrates previously separate prudential regimes for registered banks and also licensed non-bank deposit takers, such as credit unions, building societies, and retail-funded finance companies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis is an important piece of legislation to provide confidence to New Zealanders that their financial system is robust and that, where there are issues that need to be investigated, followed up, and enforced, the Reserve Bank has the powers to do so. In order to do that, there are a number of parts to the bill. Part 1, in particular, defines what financial stability is, as a core objective of the Reserve Bank. This is vital. Most people understand the Reserve Bank\u2019s role in monetary policy because they hear about that on a regular basis through announcements on the official cash rate. What is not as well understood is the role that the Reserve Bank has in terms of financial stability, the entire way that the financial system works. [Glass breaks] So the definition of financial stability that is there\u2014never mind, it\u2019ll clean up\u2014includes ensuring the soundness of individual deposit-takers, promoting public confidence, and mitigating risk to the financial system and from the financial system to the broader economy. These are core and clear principles to make sure that our overall financial policy work is guided by a good framework.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EPart 2 of the bill deals with firms that are within a licensing regime. Licensing decisions are important because they ensure that the public can have confidence that a deposit taker is somebody who has the appropriate ownership, management, and governance structure to provide security for those who do deposit with them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EPart 3 of the bill empowers the Reserve Bank to regulate deposit takers in a wide range of areas. It provides greater clarity than the Banking (Prudential Supervision) Act 1989 does. One of the things that has occurred with the Reserve Bank Act is that, over the last 30 years or so that it\u2019s been in operation, a number of obligations have been added to the bank\u2019s role without necessarily always being as consistent and as clear as it could be on what those requirements are. So we now have a modern framework to impose regulatory and prudential requirements. The word that gets used in the language here, which is used in other central bank legislation, is that of \u201Cstandards\u201D, and so we\u2019re making sure that standards are now integrated across all deposit takers, rather than having separate tools in a Reserve Bank Act and a non-bank deposit taker Act. This gives the Reserve Bank a solid foundation to broaden their rulebook.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EPart 4 of the bill provides a wider range of supervisory powers for the Reserve Bank. This is where this legislation follows through on the International Monetary Fund\u2019s work, when they came and did a financial stability assessment of New Zealand in 2017, under the previous Government. We followed through on the recommendations, and Part 4 in particular goes close to what are called the Basel core principles, which, essentially, are making sure that, when the bank undertakes its supervisory duty, it can do so with the right tools\u2014for example, in the bill, there is a new onsite inspection power which has not been available to our Reserve Bank but has been available to central banks around the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EPart 5 of the bill contains a much broader set of penalties and enforcement powers that the Reserve Bank can now use more actively. The 1989 Act had much fewer but generally strong powers, and this tended to lead to informal enforcement rather than frequent use of more formal powers, such as court-based enforcement. The Australian Royal Commission into Misconduct in the Banking, Superannuation and Financial Services Industry was critical of an over-reliance around these informal measures in Australia, and it felt that that was one of the reasons that things weren\u2019t caught early, which , obviously, had significant consequences for Australian depositors in their banks. So it is important that we get those penalty and enforcement powers right, to be able to make sure, again, that people have confidence that, if a bank or a non-bank deposit taker were to act in such a way that was outside the law, there would be some kind of penalty upon them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EPart 6 of the bill is the part of the bill that will, I am sure, generate the most comment and interest across the public, and that is the introduction or the establishment of a formal depositor compensation scheme. This has been a missing element of New Zealand\u2019s financial stability and security system for some time. I don\u2019t think I need to remind too many New Zealanders\u2014of a certain age, anyway\u2014about what can go wrong; in particular, in the non-bank deposit taking part of the sector. People remember what happened with various finance companies around New Zealand. People remember the stress and the pressure that was being exhibited during the times after the global financial crisis. The Government, inevitably, will be called on in those situations unless there is some form of scheme that is put in place that enables people to feel confident about their deposits. So the depositor compensation scheme that is outlined in this bill aims to promote the stability of the financial system in New Zealand by providing each eligible depositor with $100,000 of compensation protection for their protected deposits at each deposit taker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ENow, this $100,000 limit has been the subject of extensive consultation. This whole piece of legislation has been the subject of extensive consultation\u2014two full rounds of public consultation, including an exposure draft of this particular bill. This is an opportunity to say that consultation does matter because we began with a significantly lower level of deposits being protected. But the feedback that we got during the consultation process was that we needed to recognise the importance, for the financial stability of New Zealand, of making sure that that level was set at an appropriate rate. So the $100,000 coverage limit will fully cover more than 90 percent of New Zealand depositors. That is broadly in line with international practices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis is a balance because, on the one hand, if we had a lower coverage limit, that would reduce public confidence in the scheme and potentially risk widespread deposit splitting\u2014so people thinking that, if it was $30,000 or $50,000, they would spread their deposits all about the place in order to still be covered, and, obviously, it would disproportionately affect smaller deposit takers. On the other hand, even higher coverage limits begin to get us into the potential moral hazard area of the scheme taking on more of the risk and making riskier investments seem like they are more palatable and, therefore, encouraging some people to put those schemes up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe scheme will be pre-funded by deposit-taker levies and backstopped by the Crown. The target size of the fund that we need for this, and the expected time to achieve that, will be included in the statement of funding approach that the Minister of Finance is required to publish at least every five years. Officials are currently working through the sizing of the required fund size, but, if we look at comparative countries overseas, it would be from about 0.3 percent to 5 percent of covered deposits, but built up over a long period\u2014so built up over a five-to-20-year period to make sure we ease ourselves into this system and that it doesn\u2019t have too much impact at any given time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI am incredibly pleased and proud that we have now brought legislation to this House to fill a significant gap in New Zealanders\u2019 confidence in the financial system that they are part of. We have seen the damage that has been caused by the absence of this scheme. We have seen the difficulty that has been caused for different Governments by a scheme that does this not existing. I think this is a very important and necessary addition to our financial stability regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThere are other minor elements in the bill, including resolution powers. I think it is important that New Zealanders understand there is a way forward and a way out of any difficulties that they may see. I look forward to the Finance and Expenditure Committee considering this piece of legislation. I want to thank, in my final few moments, the many New Zealanders who have contributed already to this process through the consultation, and I look forward to more submissions as we go forward from here. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00226e7e77fba76645e5af63f59eec388b77\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e7e77fba76645e5af63f59eec388b77\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u002297758065667e4942ab0ebd6efaa64939\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002297758065667e4942ab0ebd6efaa64939\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E National recognises the crucial importance of both the stability of the financial system and also its efficiency, and in this bill, the Deposit Takers Bill, we see good intentions to hold up both of those principles; however, we think this is a bill where it is particularly important that the select committee provide further scrutiny. That is because of two things. The first is that this is a bill which imposes a number of new regulatory frameworks, for which the detail will really matter, and the second is that this is a bill that imposes a new levy upon New Zealanders who are choosing to make deposits in financial institutions, and it is crucially important that in making that levy we do not see costs imposed that outweigh the benefits of the proposed regime. So National offers our cautious support for this bill, noting, however, that the detail is critically important. We wish that the select committee process provide an opportunity for people to come forward with expertise about the practical import of the proposed regulations, so that we can analyse those and determine whether, in fact, this is an improvement on the status quo.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ENow, the Minister of Finance highlighted three key aspects of the bill, and I want to go through each of those in turn. The first is around improving the range of regulatory tools that are available for the Reserve Bank when it comes to its prudential regulation and supervision functions. Now, in practice, the Reserve Bank, of course, is responsible for ensuring that the way in which our financial institutions arrange their risk and affairs does not unduly destabilise financial stability. I think it\u2019s going to be really important, however, that those who are affected by those potential regulatory powers can provide advice and feedback on how they see them being applied. I don\u2019t think anyone wants to see a situation where, with good intentions of providing more financial stability, instead we get a situation where deposit takers see a lot more red tape, a lot more cost, a lot more regulation that doesn\u2019t necessarily benefit overall financial stability nor benefit individual deposit makers. So that\u2019s the first part of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThe second part of the bill is providing the Reserve Bank a stronger mandate, as the resolution authority, in event of financial distress or financial crisis. Now, again, analysing how that role will work in practice and whether the people involved in it will have the expertise required is another area that National will be focusing on in the submissions process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EFinally, I want to turn to the proposal for a depositor compensation scheme. Now, this is an area where National thinks we should be very careful. That\u2019s because of the obvious potential for moral hazard. The moral hazard here is that banks and savers could potentially take bigger risks because they know they are insured, and what that could lead to is a cross-subsidisation effect where those who are taking bigger risks are able to do so and get greater returns for their deposits knowing that, in the event of collapse, they will be shored up by those other depositors who have made lower-risk deposits in lower-risk institutions. Now, of course, this moral hazard can be mitigated through the design of a levy regime, where a levy regime carefully acts proportionately to risk and where it ensures that underlying prudential frameworks disincentivise risky behaviour. However, it is because of this moral hazard that National stresses that the detail is very, very important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EI do want to remind this House that we have had recent instances in the Parliament where well-intentioned financial legislation has been introduced, only to become incredibly destructive because of the detail of the regulation. The example to which I refer is the Credit Contracts and Consumer Finance Act, which members across the House supported because of its good intention of stopping predatory lending but, when it came to the detailed regulations that officials wrote, what we instead saw was that it gummed up mortgage lending in New Zealand, created telephone books\u2019 worth of new practices and procedures for those taking part in lending, and did so with no demonstrable benefit to consumers. So, with that example in mind, National does insist that the detail of this regulatory framework, and the proposed regulations to be written under it, is critically important. We note, also, that the bill implies increased powers for the Minister of Finance in terms of directing the Reserve Bank, and, again, we are always cautious about any increased powers of that sort, because we note the potential for them to be misused.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ELooking at the bill in totality, we acknowledge and recognise the amount of consultation that has taken us to this point, and we acknowledge that there have now been successive reforms to the Reserve Bank framework such that the bringing together of these two Acts has been necessitated. For National, we do absolutely uphold the concept that the core principles for effective banking supervision should be in line with the Basel core principles\u2014that is the international standard around prudential regulation of banks\u2014and we note that there have been instances in New Zealand\u2019s history where we have seen significant financial instability caused by deposit takers\u2019 failure and collapse, and we do take a real interest in preventing those sorts of things happening again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ESo, as I say, this is a piece of legislation where intention is one thing but the devil could well be in the detail. We offer our cautious support, and we strongly encourage deposit-taking institutions to make their submissions on how they think this will work in practice, to be clear about the impact they think this could have on depositors and everyday New Zealanders, and for officials to provide a robust cost-benefit analysis so that we can be satisfied that the potential improvements to financial stability are not outweighed by costs to the efficiency of our financial stability system. I look forward to the select committee process alongside my colleagues on the Finance and Expenditure Committee. This is one where we will have to furrow our brows and concentrate, because the potential implications of this bill, if done badly, are significant and could come at a lot of cost to New Zealanders. So National offers our support to take this bill to select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5ea2f659fc04d91bec940b771a0a0fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5ea2f659fc04d91bec940b771a0a0fd\u0022\u003EBARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E \u4F60\u597D, Mr Speaker. Thank you very much for the opportunity to take a call on the Deposit Takers Bill. As the chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, I\u2019m really looking forward to this bill coming to us. As the Minister of Finance has said, this is the third bill of the Reserve Bank review that was instigated in 2017. Like many members of this House who do enjoy a good trilogy, I don\u2019t think it\u2019s a Hannibal Lecter kind of trilogy\u2014Star Wars, there were too many prequels and now there are sequels, so I\u2019m a bit lost on Star Wars. Actually, one trilogy that I really do enjoy is the X-Men. Now, if you could compare the Finance and Expenditure Committee to the X-Men, I think this bill would be the characterisation of Professor X in the sense that the bill is about assurance: it is a bill about assuring the consumers and Kiwis of New Zealand who put money into financial institutions that, if something goes terribly wrong, as we\u2019ve seen in the past, the Government will be able to support them and to guarantee those deposits up to $100,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThere are a number of parts of this bill which will indeed\u2014as the member of the Opposition, Nicola Willis, has just spoken about\u2014require deep consideration and critical analysis. One that I know the member that\u2019s just on the other side of the House, the Regulations Review Committee chair\u2014I will probably enjoy receiving their letter around the strict liability offences as well as the penalties that are in this bill. I\u2019m looking forward to receiving that letter on what your particular views are around that, because there are a lot of regulation-making powers in this bill. Part 6 is the most important part of this bill, which is the actual depositor compensation scheme. But the Minister of Finance has set the case out very clearly for this. Consultation was done that led to this bill in 2017, 2018, and 2019, and it was off the back of the IMF review in 2014-15. So, on that note, I commend this bill to the House and look forward to analysing it with the Finance and Expenditure Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022d70d48c0792b49a0bc61486454976b1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d70d48c0792b49a0bc61486454976b1f\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It might be my age\u2014I have no idea who Professor X is. If I was to pick a movie trilogy that was analogous to this bill, it would probably be The Godfather\u2014lots of shady dealings and a few people getting knocked off! Actually, here\u2019s an analogy: in 2008, when the finance Minister in the Clark Government, the late Michael Cullen, needed to act quickly to shore up confidence in our deposit system, he implemented\u2014during the proroguing of Parliament, actually; we were out campaigning quite heavily. I think it was in the middle of October that the action was taken\u2014albeit with the support of National\u2019s finance spokesperson, the Hon Bill English at the time\u2014to set up what was then known as the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme, and he did that under existing legislation. One section of the Public Finance Act\u2014section 65ZD\u2014gave the Minister the power to give a guarantee or an indemnity if it\u2019s in the public interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EAbout 11 months later, the then Minister of Finance Bill English had to do some tweaks to it, including putting a sunset clause on it, as the global financial crisis (GFC) passed, which was at the end of 2011, and he did so with a five-page Act. So we\u2019re now wading through what is a 241-page bill that does more than that, but the lion\u2019s share of the policy change in the Deposit Takers Bill is actually the setting up of a retail deposit guarantee scheme that\u2019s enduring. I don\u2019t know why on earth it takes 241 pages to describe that, particularly when there\u2019s substantive work still to be done and the bill itself sets out a number of regulations and standards and fees that are still to be established years after this process started. So, if we\u2019re to take the trilogy metaphor a little further, this bill, were it a movie, is very much in the concept stage. It\u2019s at the white board stage. They\u2019re selecting the executive producers and nobody knows who the actor will be, although I have a strong suspicion the lead character could change in about 11 months\u2019 time, so we\u2019ll just wait with interest on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EAs a member of the caucus who ran the gauntlet of the tremendous pain that was felt by those affected by the collapse of about nine, I think, finance companies during the GFC\u2014most strongly by South Canterbury Finance, which lost about $1.5 billion of the $2 billion in deposits\u2014it was very clear that our prudential regulation framing did need to be improved. It doesn\u2019t matter that they got their money back; it actually caused a huge amount of stress and anxiety, health issues, pain in the community, and certainly some political challenges, and the best way to deal with that is to avoid it happening in the first place. So I think, actually, the prudential regulation of the sector is appropriate, but largely it\u2019s in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI\u2019m particularly interested in what the Minister said, and what the regulatory impact statement says, about moral hazard. Now, he seems to think that moral hazard can be managed by limiting the amount that\u2019s covered or by putting other rules in place. The reality is that there are two types of moral hazard in this case: one is the behaviour of the banks and deposit takers, and the other is the behaviour of the investors. We can regulate the deposit takers all we like, but the investors are going to act rationally. There is a risk-return paradigm here: the higher the risk the greater the return; the higher the return the greater the risk. That is Economics 101. Currently, the 12-month deposit rate at the Westpac Banking Corporation, the Government\u2019s bank, is 4 percent. At General Finance, it\u2019s 5.1 percent. So there\u2019s a 25 percent premium for the perceived risk\u2014I\u2019m not saying it\u2019s a real risk; it\u2019s certainly not right now\u2014that a smaller organisation, that doesn\u2019t have the sort of asset backing that Westpac does, might carry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI haven\u2019t had enough time to investigate what the interest rates actually were about 18 months ago, when interest rates were at rock bottom, but it\u2019s likely that, on a proportionate basis, the difference between the registered-bank deposit rates and the building societies\u2019 and the other finance companies\u2019 deposit rates was probably much greater as a percentage\u2014greater risk. Now, one must ask: if those deposits are going to be guaranteed by the Crown through a Deposit Takers Act, how on earth do we acknowledge the different risk? Because, effectively, there is no risk. I say that with the corollary that I\u2019ve already mentioned that there\u2019s a lot of stress and anxiety if an organisation collapses, but the moral hazard of the depositors\u2014if they shift their deposits to the higher-return organisation knowing that they are inoculated against the collapse of those companies\u2014is pretty high, and no amount of regulation or standards or rule making is going to change the sort of behaviour that is undertaken by depositors. It\u2019s quite ironic, I think, that we\u2019re doing this at a time when, I would suggest, the biggest financial risk on the Crown balance sheet is actually the Reserve Bank itself, and the estimates of the potential for loss on the large-scale asset purchase programme that the Reserve Bank embarked on is pretty high.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ENow, some commentators are saying that, because it will affect both sides of the Crown\u2019s balance sheet, that\u2019s not going to be an issue. I\u2019m not so sure I agree with that. Some of the numbers being mentioned about the potential for loss through that is in the billions, and, actually, the Minister of Finance has indemnified, not by law but by the existing Reserve Bank of New Zealand Act, the bank against any losses. So it was printing money knowing that the risk wasn\u2019t theirs. So, when we\u2019re talking about moral hazard, we\u2019re seeing evidence of behaviour that could have been different had the indemnity not been in place. Would the Reserve Bank have acted differently had they not been indemnified? I would suggest so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ESo the last thing I would say about this bill\u2014and, actually, one of the things that I like about it\u2014is Part 7, and that is the crisis and resolution aspect of the bill. One of the things that happened after the 2011 Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme is that the Auditor-General reviewed that process and made some excellent recommendations, one of which was to have a better resolution and crisis management process in place so that we can try and cut things off at the pass, and it does appear as though those sorts of things have been very well addressed in this bill. But I agree with Nicola Willis\u2014there\u2019s a great deal of work for the Finance and Expenditure Committee to do, because the devil will always be in the detail of bills like this. There are 241 pages, and I expect Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick, Ingrid Leary, and Helen White will have already started on this. It\u2019ll be a potboiler, I\u2019m sure, and it\u2019ll be one that will keep them up night after night, as will the submissions that will come pouring in. I might be flippant about that, but, actually, the risk that we do miss something, that we do set up a thing like the Credit Contracts and Consumer Finance Act is an example of where we might\u2019ve missed some of that crucial detail, and it will be incumbent on those committee members to be diligent, as I know they are, in examining the bill and making sure it can be approved. With that in mind, I wish them all the best and our cautious support for the bill remains.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u00226075339fa3e64570a7ff0d865fb05392\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226075339fa3e64570a7ff0d865fb05392\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d just like to pick up on a couple of points made by previous speakers. The first one is Michael Woodhouse suggesting that the biggest risk to the Government\u2019s balance sheet is the Reserve Bank. Actually, on this side of the House, we are well aware that the biggest risk is climate change, and we have taken prudent steps to manage that, including one of the most significant Budgets. We are accounting for climate change in that and in the ongoing work that many of the ministries are doing to futureproof our country. So I think the previous speaker\u2019s comments show the level of seriousness with which they take climate change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EBut the devil will be in the detail, and is in the detail, and it\u2019s interesting that Nicola Willis and Michael Woodhouse seem to disagree about how much detail there should be: 241 pages is testament to the amount of work and consultation that has already gone on in this area and the care which this Government is taking to ensure that we get the balance right, and it is indeed a balancing act. When it comes to moral hazard, nobody is suggesting that there should be an incentive for people to indulge in risky behaviour, and that is why the level has been set at $100,000, taking into account what\u2019s been mentioned through consultation but also looking at the sliding scale that has been set up very deliberately to ensure that higher-risk lending includes higher levels of input via the levies so that those behaviours can be managed. Now, yes, that will get thrashed out at select committee, but the mechanisms are already in place in the bill to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo this is a very significant change to the Reserve Bank of New Zealand Act. In fact, Bell Gully has said that it is one of the most significant changes in a generation, and they don\u2019t say that lightly. It\u2019s been a long time coming, and we share the Opposition\u2019s concern and memories of what happened after the global financial crisis (GFC) and the terrible situation it was for many deposit takers in New Zealand. So it\u2019s a long time coming, and it\u2019s great to see that it has been done so thoughtfully and carefully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWhat it will do is strengthen governance, and it will also enhance director accountability and impose new standards and stronger powers for the Reserve Bank. So all of that, really, is around ensuring that some of the cowboys that are currently operating around the margins of the sector can no longer operate, and, indeed, there is a mechanism by which the Reserve Bank can apply to the District Court to ensure that certain players in the market are not trusted to take people\u2019s deposits. So, again, that\u2019s a good risk mitigation against the moral hazard that has been discussed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI think this is a really good, thoughtful piece of legislation. I echo the requests from Opposition members for deposit takers and others impacted by this to please give us your thoughts. I can assure this House that we will be going through this very, very carefully. It\u2019s an important piece of legislation, and I think that all New Zealanders can feel assured that we are not going to see the level of exposure that happened after the GFC, which caused so much trauma to New Zealanders everywhere. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022c206d3dddd8f494298f8fc2af44c79bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c206d3dddd8f494298f8fc2af44c79bc\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. I\u2019d like to start my contribution, firstly, by just saying that the financial system really exists to serve people, and not the other way around. And our economic system is there to serve people, and not the other way around. I think, in the last few decades, we\u2019ve seen financial services significantly grow as a sector of the economy without actually contributing to growth of productivity or the things that people need to live good lives. That\u2019s something we don\u2019t get much opportunity to talk about in the House, but I think that, here in the Greens, we acknowledge that it\u2019s really important that the way in which the Government regulates and looks after the financial system has to be done in a way that is there to benefit all people\u2014you know, people are not existing simply to serve the gods of the financial or economic system, and it has kind of gone the other way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe second thing I want to say is that the Green Party will be supporting this bill, and we have a very small but significant win in this bill, which is the depositor compensation fund, as well as a previous shift, which was the move to the board making the decisions and not just the Governor of the Reserve Bank. These are issues that the Green Party, I believe, was the first to raise in Parliament, and I went back to look at when the Green Party was calling for this, and the oldest press release I could find was from March 2013. So I want to acknowledge previous Green Party finance spokespeople: Russel Norman, who was calling for deposit insurance back in March 2013, some months before the OECD came out and urged that New Zealand take up deposit insurance as well as capital gains tax\u2014also something the Green Party had been calling for for about a decade or more before then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EJust going back through it, of course, in June 2016, November 2016, May 2017, and on and on, we have press releases from the Green Party calling for the National Government of the day to implement deposit insurance, and, of course, in the last term of Government, when we did have an Associate Minister of Finance who was a Green. I believe most of the critical Cabinet decisions were made about this legislation, so it\u2019s nice to see it finally come to fruition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EWhat I think is notable\u2014I heard Nicola Willis, the finance spokesperson for the National Party, talk about moral hazard and some concerns the National Party might have that having deposit insurance would encourage greater risk-taking behaviour on the part of financial institutions. And I have to say this: in some ways, having a deposit insurance scheme, or, as they call it, the depositor compensation fund, is actually an improvement on the status quo, where what we\u2019ve seen is large financial institutions becoming too big to fail, and even though there has been no kind of formal fund or scheme in place when they have gone under, they inevitably get bailed out by the Government, and that\u2019s just, you know, by all the people who are contributing. And what misses out at that point is other crucial public services like income support, like our hospitals, and pay for our teachers and our nurses and our doctors. So, you know, when South Canterbury Finance was bailed out by the Government, it was over a billion dollars, and, of course, in today\u2019s dollars, that would be much more. So that came at the expense of other important, crucial Government services that benefit all New Zealanders, and that was quite risky decision-making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThis scheme that has been set up, and what\u2019s proposed in this legislation\u2014of course, it will have to go through the select committee process, and we will want to make sure we get it right. But I think quite a lot of time has passed and there has been quite a lot of work done on it up until this point, and it is an improvement on the status quo. I guess I should say that, globally, the finance sector has become bigger and more complex and too big to fail. Some people working in that sector have become extraordinarily rich, and in some respects it\u2019s been at the expense of everyone else, and as it becomes bigger and more complex, Governments get held to ransom, because the Government is so concerned about what happens if we have fiscal instability and the impacts on the economy for ordinary people\u2014potentially, them losing their jobs\u2014that they can\u2019t afford to let those institutions fail and suffer the consequences of their risky decision-making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo I think this is, at least, a really sensible way to do that, because it means all people who are putting money into a financial institution, saving into, investing into it\u2014whatever it is\u2014are making some proportionate contribution to the fund, and then people who have deposits up to $100,000 will have that covered by that fund in the case where an institution goes under. So that is a fair and proportionate response, and it means that those who don\u2019t have the financial resources, who don\u2019t have the wealth to be investing in institutions like that, aren\u2019t paying to bail those people out. Also, there\u2019s the cap of $100,000\u2014so, I mean, there\u2019s fairness in this in that people who have super-large investments, which is a tiny percentage of the population, are not going to be bailed out to that amount in that circumstance by this particular compensation fund.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo the Green Party is happy to see this bill come to the House. I think it\u2019s quite overdue at this point, but it\u2019s great that it\u2019s come, and I hope that we\u2019ll be hearing from a lot of informed submitters and be able to make some improvements at select committee. But I do think that we do need to think about the bigger picture and what role finance plays in our economy and in our society, and how important it is for us, as the representatives of the people in this House, to make sure that we have a system that is looking after our people. In order to look after our people, we have to look after our natural resources and our natural environments, and so it\u2019s really important that money doesn\u2019t become the thing that is more important than everything else. Money is the means by which we\u2014you know, it facilitates the trade of goods and services, but that\u2019s just one small part of what it means to be a human and to have a good life, and we need lots of other things to live a good life. This is the place where we come together to make sure that the rules are fair and that the system is fair, and we have a lot of work to do in that respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022 data-id=\u00228770d7a6c18f477fb1eb0a1e6de2d55a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228770d7a6c18f477fb1eb0a1e6de2d55a\u0022\u003EDAMIEN SMITH (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Public trust in the banking sector is essential for the running and functioning of the New Zealand economy. Savings aren\u2019t safe under the bed, but, while, potentially, this is a nice backstop to a financial economy which sets New Zealand in line with the OECD, there are some other principles we should discuss around the bill, and I hope they will be taken into consideration in the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re giving the Reserve Bank of New Zealand a significant suite of regulations and powers, an expansion of these powers, as the lender of last resort. One can argue that protection is already in place by several instruments. One is high capital ratios set for the banks, which places the risk to protect the deposit takers with the banks and not at the feet of Government or a specialised fund. Open Bank Resolution processes are the second element that now also help protect depositor insurance\u2014and, with this piece of legislation, this looks like we\u2019re putting ambulances at the top, middle, and bottom of the cliff, which does not make sense because the higher level of risk of a financial institution failing is when it doesn\u2019t meet its capital ratios requirement, which the Financial Markets Authority and the Reserve Bank should understand pretty fast and pretty quickly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EFinally, a depositor, as member Willis said, can\u2019t actually chase around for higher interest rates with $99,000 per institution. Also, it encourages potential non-bank lenders to take on risky projects or leverage their balance sheet. No one knows how the levies will be set except banks, who have preferred terms for what the taxpayer is up for. ACT feels that the Government should slow this bill down; listen further to institutions. We\u2019ve seen with the Credit Contracts and Consumer Finance Act (CCCFA) what can happen if we don\u2019t get the devil right in the detail. ACT believes this is the last thing New Zealand needs now, and that existing protections are in place and we should protect the citizen using those macro tools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003ETimely payments is not clear. In the UK, as an example, if you have a situation where your bank has had a run on it, there\u2019s a guarantee to pay in seven days or more, and it\u2019s adjusted for inflation. One of the things about bank runs, like Northern Rock or several of the bank runs in the United States, is people just run to take all their money out. It\u2019s a panic, and there\u2019s no guarantee with this system in place that it\u2019s any better than adequate capital ratios and encouraging the major banks to participate fully with supporting that balance sheet, even if they\u2019re Australian banks. And, effectively, why you have a bank run is somewhere along inside the business\u2014and all our banks are vertically integrated\u2014their mortgage book blows out and they reach into the depositors\u2019 money to actually take that and subsidise that. That is one of the reasons why these financial institutions fail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EIn ACT, we also believe that, for taxpayers, it would clearly be a wish to see tight, defined constraints around the ability of Government to commit public funds in a financial crisis, which no doubt will lead us back to this place for appropriation from Parliament. Confidence in the financial system and its stability already exists. What\u2019s the big question to rush this? Why do we need to not go through the detail? It will actually take, after Royal assent, two years to make this workable in the marketplace. So there are a lot of things to be thought through, and even though the bill has 250 pages of slammed-together concepts, it doesn\u2019t actually deal with those three levels of bank protection that the Reserve Bank should have highlighted in its documentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003ESo, to enact a single regulatory framework for deposit takers, there will be disadvantages to credit unions. There will be disadvantages to big banks. But I think it\u2019s worth listening to big banks on this occasion to avoid the CCCFA scenario.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003ETimeliness of payments is a vital thing once people lose confidence in the financial system. So the seven days that resulted from the mitigation of the Northern Rock situation in the United Kingdom was one where the people were standing in the streets for seven days. They wanted all their money out, not just what the deposit was at the time. So we hopefully will never see that situation in New Zealand. We need to consider that making commercial banks stick to the adequacy ratios is a more powerful tool than what we\u2019ve got on the table here today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003ESo ACT would like to see this through the next stage of the select committee. We won\u2019t be supporting the bill at this stage, but we will give it a tight consideration, and we\u2019d like those points to be considered by the Reserve Bank, Treasury, and the Minister of Finance. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce68e3e16a594a7dbe1c9e7987d2da6b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce68e3e16a594a7dbe1c9e7987d2da6b\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s been interesting listening to the speeches around the House this afternoon. Barbara Edmonds definitely whet my appetite, and then, obviously, the Hon Michael Woodhouse continued that, in talking about this omnibus bill and the trilogy and what movies we can connect to this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ESo I have to admit that I was a bit of a boy back in the day, and the Die Hard trilogy\u2014Bruce Willis, yes\u2014was one of my favourites; I can\u2019t say a few lines of that in this, but I\u2019m trying to think how the hell it would work in this situation. Maybe you\u2019ve sort of got reckless deposit takers being the bad guys, and then John McClane being the good guy who maybe comes in and saves the day, which is what the Government\u2019s doing, coming in to support this. Or maybe Pirates of the Caribbean, but that\u2019s a bit predictable. You\u2019ve got the bad pirates, the good pirates; you\u2019ve got those who are sort of doing money stuff and it\u2019s pretty easy. Then I did actually think about Austin Powers. Dr Evil; remember him? Was it $100,000 [Mimics Dr Evil]\u2014see what I did there\u2014actually being the limit, protecting 93 percent of depositors?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EBut I digress. I am being frivolous, and I won\u2019t even mention The Terminator or Mad Max or any of those other ones which would just be absolutely ridiculous. But this is good legislation. It was 2017, as was said earlier by the Hon Grant Robertson, when this work was being done, and I look forward, as a member of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, to scrutinising the bill, as has been talked about today\u2014to look deeply into this, to get into the numbers, and to ensure that we have good legislation that will protect people into the future, promoting prosperity and wellbeing for all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022 data-id=\u0022723ff55cd7854de5aaecf6903ba537f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022723ff55cd7854de5aaecf6903ba537f3\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s very good to be able to rise and speak on this bill, the Deposit Takers Bill. As some of my colleagues have already noted, we will be cautiously supporting this bill and look forward to it being discussed further at the select committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EThere some key aspects of this, obviously, as our friends over the way have just noted, in respect to $100,000, the key protections there\u2014yes, we can do that too [Mimics Dr Evil]. I think that\u2019s important because it does afford mums and dads and other deposit takers quite a lot of assurity that, in the case of financial instability or a possible run on banks, their nest egg and everything that they\u2019ve worked hard and saved for will be protected. There\u2019s also some key expansion of powers for the Reserve Bank (RB) in there, to step in, in the case of a severe or significant situation\u2014they can get in there and they can carve bits off and transfer or sell out viable parts\u2014which does give them an increased amount of power. That is noted, but there is the potential that that could be used for good as well. So we do encourage further investigation of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EWe all want a stable and efficient financial system. You know, that is very true. And, as we\u2019ve seen over the past 15 years, when the system hasn\u2019t been so stable, it is very important that that stability is there. We do note the steps that reserve banks took, not just in New Zealand but internationally, to shore up the system and to shore up deposit holders after the global financial crisis. But we would want this to see further scrutiny because we note that there has been discussion here around risk and there are concerns that this removes the risk. It removes it on the financial institutions, be they first tier, be they second tier. It also removes the risk, obligation, or personal responsibility on the person that is making the deposit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003ENow, if I know that my deposit is going to be backed up and looked after by whoever I deposit it with, why would I go along and give it to a first-tier lender such as Westpac or ASB and get a small percentage when I can go and take it to a much higher-risk deposit taker and get a significantly enhanced rate? I think that has the potential to create some issues in the system, because the risk isn\u2019t really owned by the players; the risk is, effectively, absorbed by the Reserve Bank. And I think we already have a pretty stable system in that regard. We do have quite a well-protected system. We do have capital holding requirements, and these have been enhanced. I think New Zealand stands out quite well as a country whose financial system is quite well protected in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EA lot of people say, \u201CWhat happens if the Australian banks collapse?\u201D I fortunately, or unfortunately, had the pleasure of working for Australian banks for about a dozen years, and they always looked down on their New Zealand cousins, which annoyed me tremendously. But we did have a very good thing in that the Reserve Bank New Zealand had required that New Zealand banks have a carve-off and had to stand on their own two feet. So, in the case of things going extremely pear shaped in Sydney or Melbourne and the Commonwealth Bank of Australia or Westpac or ANZ falling over, the New Zealand equivalents, the New Zealand subs, would be able to stand on their own two feet. So I think that\u2019s important to take into account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EI would also be concerned because I know that there will be\u2014at some stage, the RB or someone else will have to determine what levies are paid. If you\u2019re determining that, it doesn\u2019t make sense for a very safe deposit holder to pay the same levy as a much riskier deposit holder. Do you get into the situation there where the RB or the Government or whoever it may be is, effectively, picking winners and losers in this game? I think that\u2019s an important consideration to note.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EWe cautiously support the bill on this side of the House. We note that it has some good points. We note that mum and dad deposit takers will be very happy to see some safety\u2014up to $100,000 in their deposits\u2014but we would also want it to be rigorously scrutinised. I know my colleague the Hon Michael Woodhouse noted there were 240-odd pages to be combed through, and we hope that is done very rigorously at the select committee stage. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022 data-id=\u00227b12416d1663404a918b2b97945e5646\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b12416d1663404a918b2b97945e5646\u0022\u003ESARAH PALLETT (Labour\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E \u8C22\u8C22, Madam Speaker. It gives me great pleasure to rise to speak to the first reading of the Deposit Takers Bill, which is being commended to the most excellent Finance and Expenditure Committee. I\u2019m not a member of that committee, but I understand that $100,000 of Kiwis\u2019 deposits in eligible institutions will be guaranteed in the hopefully rare event that that institution should fail. This bill would protect 93 percent of depositors fully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EI remember the collapse of Barings Bank and the subsequent collapse of many banks later during the global financial crisis. On a more personal note, my father very nearly lost every penny of a house sale, as they deposited the money just in preparation for a purchase. Fortunately, it was averted, but it would have been catastrophic. With regard to trilogies, I feel that The Lord of the Rings, with the Hon Grant Robertson cast as Gandalf, is a more appropriate trilogy. I commend this bill to select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022 data-id=\u00226456a050544e4642896cab242cab24c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226456a050544e4642896cab242cab24c6\u0022\u003ENAISI CHEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Obviously, the number three has been well traversed in this House today. So, rather than talking about trilogies in pop culture, I think I\u2019d come back to something that I know a little bit better, in the field of classical music. I\u2019d like to talk about a piano trio. In a piano trio, often we have a viola, we have a cello, and we have the piano. I think of this bill as something quite like the function of a piano in that trio.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EWhat I mean by that is that often the piano just kind of chugs along, makes sure that everyone is kept in time; the bassline is there, keeping it all together. And that\u2019s the point that I\u2019d take: being the \u201Cbassline\u201D, being the absolute safeguard in our financial system, is this bill, and the levy system that we set up, as well\u2014the scheme making sure that 93 percent of depositors and their money are protected; making sure that the scheme is pre-funded by all the levies that we will take. And that\u2019s being supported by the Crown, to be that backstop, so that, for the mums and pops and everyone in New Zealand, their money is well protected. Therefore, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u00224b3d6966b8274a868ffe42358a096e50\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b3d6966b8274a868ffe42358a096e50\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise and take the final call for the National Party on this bill, the Deposit Takers Bill. As we have heard from our previous speakers, we are supporting the bill at its first reading, cautiously\u2014cautiously supporting it, I would say. Because, in the first instance, obviously the stability of our financial sector is very important, and on that basis we absolutely want to ensure that it is enhanced where it can be appropriately done, and needs to be done\u2014we absolutely support those aspects. There are a few elements, which I just want to touch on through my contribution, where I have some questions or some areas of concern that I hope will be addressed through the select committee process, as this traverses that aspect as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EThe initial one that I just want to touch on, and what we\u2019re talking about here, is to try and safeguard or protect the money that has been deposited in these institutions, by everyday Kiwis presumably, so that they can have confidence that the money will be available when they need it, for whatever purpose life may bring for them. Having a cap of $100,000\u2014I\u2019m interested in that figure; as to exactly how that came about, noting that in Australia it\u2019s $250,000 under their scheme, and $100,000 in this day and age doesn\u2019t go particularly far in terms of making up a house deposit. I note the carve-out for examples where someone has just sold a house and they have a significant amount of cash, but there doesn\u2019t seem to be a corresponding allowance for someone who is building up a deposit to buy a house. Indeed, a 20 percent deposit on a million-dollar house, for example, is $200,000; so that\u2019s double the cap as it is proposed here. So I just wonder whether or not that could see some flexibility as well, because I would suggest having more than $100,000 on deposit doesn\u2019t necessarily make someone financially stable enough to weather through the loss of that money if it was not caught under this cap. So that is one question I would have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EHaving said that, though, for me, a lot of this comes back to personal responsibility. Now, anyone looking to deposit some money into a financial institution should, rightly, be considering the status of that financial institution: how safe is my money going to be if I give this money to a bank or to an institute? Am I likely to see it back? And, obviously, that\u2019s reflected through the interest rates that are offered by those banks as well. We heard, I think it was, Mr Woodhouse talking about that earlier, in terms of the varying rates between a mainstream bank like the \u201Cbig four\u201D, as it were, compared to another financial lender, who may offer a higher rate to try and secure a deposit in a competitive market on the premise that, actually, they may be perceived\u2014whether that is just a perception or otherwise\u2014as being a slightly higher-risk investment for that depositor. Of course, the attraction for the depositor then being that they might secure a premium of a percent of more over the other banks, depending on the situation, and so that has some appeal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ESo, of course, it is risk versus return, and this is a pretty fundamental tenet of economics here that we need to be mindful of in this situation, and then asking the question \u201CWell, is it appropriate for the Government to be stepping in to try and come up with a solution here? Is it really needed? What are the costs that then might flow through?\u201D, because I am very mindful of costs at a time when we are experiencing a cost of living crisis unlike I can remember. We are now talking of potentially\u2014probably\u2014putting additional costs on to depositors, and I am really concerned about that, because we are at the same time, of course, trying to encourage people to save more. Now we\u2019re looking at impacting on that by having a higher cost for them. Because, ultimately, if the Government is putting this system in place and there\u2019s a levy being imposed on these deposit-taking institutions, well, of course, that cost for those businesses is going to be passed on, either in terms of a reduced deposit rate that they offer to Kiwis looking to deposit money with them or, on the other side, an increased lending rate to people who are looking to borrow from that institution, which, presumably, is borrowing money on the one hand to lend out on the other side.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ESo, at a time when you may be looking at somebody wanting to borrow money to progress a business idea that they\u2019ve had, a lightbulb moment, an inspiration\u2014and we have hundreds of thousands of everyday businesses in New Zealand doing amazing things. Typically, I think, we\u2019ve had an environment that fosters that sort of innovation and have-a-go spirit, and I would be concerned if they were then having to experience, perhaps, an increase from a 6 percent to an 8 or 10 percent interest rate on the loans that they\u2019re able to borrow money at from these deposit-taking institutions, because of the increased levy cost in part. So there are those costs that I just don\u2019t see appropriate consideration being given to at this stage, and that is, for me, probably one of the biggest concerns I have\u2014as I say, a cost of living crisis and here we are putting more costs on to depositors and lenders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EBut, of course, we also have a Government that can never miss an opportunity to take control of something that they may or may not necessarily need to. We just saw that in my contribution, last week, on the Dairy Industry Restructuring (Fonterra Capital Restructuring) Amendment Bill that they\u2019re putting forward, looking to get their fingers more involved there, have more say and more influence. And here they are again, looking to do exactly the same on this one. So we have a Government now saying, \u201CHey, we will be undertaking all of the credit assessments for these financial institutions. We will tell you, as New Zealanders, which of these institutes are best for you to invest in, which are the most risky, and which are the least risky, and therefore where you should place your money.\u201D Now, ultimately, I\u2019m not confident that that is a role that Government should play. Surely that is a position of the market to work through, who is or isn\u2019t a safe bet, and that is indeed part of what I mentioned earlier around the risk-assessment element that depositors would be considering\u2014risk versus return\u2014when they are looking at making a decision around who they may or may not engage with in those financial arrangements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ESo here we have a Government, instead, that\u2019s looking to put that in place, to then levy on that basis\u2014presumably making the levy based on a credit-risk assessment basis; so, therefore, the riskier the deposit-taking institution the higher the levy would be for them, compared to someone with a lower-risk profile. And, ultimately, it risks speaking to the arrogance of a Government that continues to think they know best for everyday New Zealanders. Regardless of the situation, they have the solution! Kiwis shouldn\u2019t need to use their own minds, because here we have a Government that will do all the thinking for us! Well, ultimately, I think the market should be able to do that. Kiwis are generally pretty smart. They can make some of these decisions off their own bat and don\u2019t need this sort of influence. And, actually, it\u2019s a little bit like the jobs tax we\u2019ve seen proposed as well from this Government, where they\u2019re putting an insurance scheme in place for anyone who may lose a job\u2014and I\u2019m not sure whether or not that includes any outgoing members of Parliament if there was an electoral change, for example\u2014but the impact there obviously is that it provides a solution that may or may not be needed in some instances, but ultimately ends up adding cost. And here we are again adding more cost from a Government that thinks they know best.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ESo these are some of the real concerns I have about this particular bill, because, as we\u2019ve heard, I think, from Mr Uffindell as well in his contribution, the capital adequacy requirements that were brought in post global financial crisis helped to address some of these concerns, right? Because we came through that in pretty good shape comparatively, in a global context; our banking system held up pretty well. It got pretty close, as I understand it, in some instances, to there being real issues, but we got through. That having been said, there were obviously some changes brought in off the back of that\u2014the capital adequacy requirements off the back of the Basel Accord. Basel II, I think it was, and then Basel III as well, still coming into play, saw a significant shift in the level of capital that had to be held by a bank. Now, obviously, that comes at a cost as well. So we saw an increasing margin being applied by the banks, between what they are borrowing, or buying, money at\u2014the BKBM rate\u2014and what they\u2019re then lending out to everyday borrowers. That margin had to increase to allow for that cost of capital that they then had to hold over and above what they had previously held. So this is another example of that sort of thing, where we\u2019re saying, \u201CHey, we\u2019re going to see more costs coming into these businesses.\u201D But, actually, we\u2019ve already got some elements of protection in place. So do we really need this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m really interested in seeing what comes through the select committee process in that regard. I do just want to pick up a quote from the regulatory impact statement: \u201CThere are significant risks associated with implementation of the Deposit Takers Act, and the potential for unintended consequences. The Reserve Bank is planning is to increase resourcing\u201D\u2014well, how about that? More bureaucrats. What a surprise! But, ultimately, the unintended consequences is an area that we really need to see thrashed out, because I don\u2019t have confidence at this stage that we\u2019ve fully understood where that may sit or what might fall out off the back of that\u2014as we saw with the Credit Contracts and Consumer Finance Act issues as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ELastly, I just want to pick up on the director requirements. That\u2019s a small part of this, but an important part, I think, where it looks to change the due diligence liability requirements for directors carrying out due diligence, such that it excludes that from being eligible to be covered by directors and officers liability insurance. And that is a significant risk, I think, for any director, who will then likely take a much more risk-averse position when determining a potential investment opportunity. So that has the risk, or potential, to slow down our economic contribution, our productivity as well. So there is a number of areas that I think we really need to traverse here, and I am looking forward to some robust select committee discussions on it. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u00222a552fa871364e0b8bbcfd5a222cf32e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a552fa871364e0b8bbcfd5a222cf32e\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a pleasure to take a call on this bill, the Deposit Takers Bill, but also to have the benefit of being a Finance and Expenditure Committee member. So I will be listening to what I\u2019ve heard today and I\u2019ll be taking that back into the select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EBut it does strike me that, in fact, there is a difference emerging in the approaches of the two main parties on this bill, and I\u2019d say it\u2019s a very important one to note. What happened in the global financial crisis was that we didn\u2019t have an appropriate system, so people who were promised high interest rates had to be bailed out completely. And it\u2019s very much that old adage of \u201Csocialise the risk, privatise the profit\u201D, because it was the taxpayers who had to fork out the money to cover people, to give our system stability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThis bill changes that. It shores up the system. It makes sure that it is actually a very stable system with the right regulations in place, with the right accountabilities in place, with the capacity to have a licensing regime that covers all deposit holders. At the moment, the proposal is $100,000, and it is very likely that the higher the fees are the higher the interest that\u2019s being promised is\u2014that it\u2019s more of a credit risk\u2014so they will pay higher amounts of fees towards the scheme. It is, in fact, supposed to be self-regulating and pay for itself. So no longer will the New Zealand taxpayer, who got nothing out of the high interest rates, end up forking out for the bill. That is actually a real move forward. That is a mature system and, hopefully, we will end up with a much more stable system than we have ever had, one that New Zealanders can rely on and one that\u2019s actually better for taxpayers, and that\u2019s a win for me. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226194f91af45247ee9760421a14a009e6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Deposit Takers Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 110\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; New Zealand National 33; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000279\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1f550756bf24676864b548e53db46d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1f550756bf24676864b548e53db46d3\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the Deposit Takers Bill be considered by the Finance and Expenditure Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Finance and Expenditure Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022983d7e9844684c05a9792899a94f221b\u0022\u003EDairy Industry Restructuring (Fonterra Capital Restructuring) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002219384596c70f42a59cc3c2ed3ddae1ce\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000285\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 22 September.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u00226a8b2461f3a8498baba0b21dccec8a3e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a8b2461f3a8498baba0b21dccec8a3e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It gives me great pleasure to support this bill on behalf of the National Party. First of all, I just want to say a word of thanks and support for the Labour Party. They have a rich history of supporting legislation in this area, from the formation of Fonterra to the last changes to the Dairy Industry Restructuring Act in their first term and in this second one as well. So, from the dairy farmers of New Zealand that are Fonterra suppliers, to the Labour Party a big thankyou for the way that you have engaged on that in the past, and this is another attempt to do so here. So thank you. I think that it\u2019s good to see that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d722bed42c741608ff3bbada18b99e0\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s generous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022304a4852b5ce42d799d0bb2e23962fdf\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is, but it is praise that is worth giving out because it actually is genuinely deserved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThis bill has a few issues in it, though, that need to be sorted out at select committee. Previous speakers have gone through the history of what\u2019s happened to get to this point, where farmers have voted on the capital structure that they want to have for Fonterra, Fonterra has taken that to the Minister of Agriculture, and the Minister has listened and, to all accounts, enabled that to happen. There are a couple of points, though, where the Minister has intervened more than the farmers would have wanted or expected, and that\u2019s part of the negotiation process now, I guess, that goes on during the select committee process. As long as the select committee takes an open approach to that, then I think that we will be comfortable to work through with the Labour Party to see if we can get some resolution to those issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ESo one of the issues is the number of ministerial nominees to the milk price panel, which increases from one to two. Now, potentially, that is something that you could see the Labour Party seeing as an opportunity for more Government intervention, I guess, in that price-setting, and they may see that as something that they will not budge on. It probably isn\u2019t the end of the world to do that, but it \u201Crequires the chair \u2026 to be fully independent of Fonterra, appointed only on the approval of the Minister,\u201D and when it gets to the stage that the panel is, effectively, controlled by the Minister, I think that does take it beyond the safeguard aspect that the Labour Party may be looking at at the moment and into the aspect of control over a body that, essentially, the Government doesn\u2019t need to be involved in. The reason I say that is that the milk price is a very open market. The other suppliers out there tend to follow the Fonterra price on the ground, rather than necessarily a milk price panel that comes up with a great, independent price that the country can follow. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe second issue is the Commerce Commission power, and that\u2019s probably the issue I have the most concern around. The Commerce Commission as an organisation has a very poor history in New Zealand. If you look back on its inability to deal with major issues of imbalance in our commercial system, it tends to pick on the easy hits that it can do. If any organisation needs reform, it\u2019s probably the Commerce Commission in attitude, approach, and, actually, delivery, and to give them more power is, I think, giving an organisation that doesn\u2019t understand its role and doesn\u2019t actually understand how it should fulfil that role a dangerous precedent. So I would be very cautious and I would caution the Labour members from giving too much power to the Commerce Commission. One issue that they\u2019re probably acting in at the moment is supermarkets and you haven\u2019t seen the Commerce Commission being very active in that area at all, and that just shows that they\u2019re not a body that I believe we can engage with to the extent of this power that\u2019s given to them here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThere are some other changes in the bill that are pretty small, but the two big ones there are, effectively, the power the Commerce Commission gets and the change to the milk price panel. Those two, I think, need to be reviewed, and I thank the Labour Party for supporting Fonterra dairy farmers and the dairy industry. But I\u2019d just caution that there are two or three areas there that possibly could do with change, and I look forward to that happening in the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022 data-id=\u0022a876fe9aff184830b9d5629788af711b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a876fe9aff184830b9d5629788af711b\u0022\u003EMARJA LUBECK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker\u2014and talofa. Thank you for the opportunity to take a call in this first reading of the Dairy Industry Restructuring (Fonterra Capital Restructuring) Amendment Bill. It has been said in previous speeches already\u2014but it\u2019s worth repeating\u2014that New Zealand dairy farmers are world-leading, and the Fonterra cooperative has, of course, been a central part of this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EI want to do a quick shout-out, while I have the opportunity, to our hard-working dairy farmers in Kaipara ki Mahurangi, as was evident at the recent Northland Dairy Industry Awards. There were two prize-winning Wellsford farms, both first-timers, and it was great to see people like Michaela McCracken, only 21 at the time, scoop up such prestigious awards, so I thought it would be worth a shout-out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EBack to Fonterra though: as New Zealand\u2019s largest company, their ongoing performance is critical to our economy and it\u2019s very important that we get the settings right so that Fonterra can continue to perform well. So the Government has agreed to amend the Dairy Industry Restructuring Act to support Fonterra\u2019s morph to a new capital structure, which will enable them to compete for future milk supply on a sustainable basis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EThe risk mitigation and improved transparency measures in this bill were developed with consultation with industry. They will ensure that there is ongoing support for their performance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EThis bill, in our view, strikes a right balance between supporting Fonterra shareholder mandate as well as doing its bit to improving transparency in the sector. With the increasing challenges in the dairy sector in general\u2014and the Minister, the Hon Meka Whaitiri, in her first reading speech, touched on those quite extensively\u2014it is really important that we provide certainty and continued safeguards for Fonterra, for farmers, and for the wider dairy sector. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022288783df-ade6-42d2-bd21-06ffa87dedf8\u0022 data-id=\u00225fc9429683a44181a3778ca3e930df1d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022288783df-ade6-42d2-bd21-06ffa87dedf8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225fc9429683a44181a3778ca3e930df1d\u0022\u003ESTEPH LEWIS (Labour\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise and take a call on the Dairy Industry Restructuring (Fonterra Capital Restructuring) Amendment Bill. I\u2019d like to start my contribution today by acknowledging the Government\u2019s announcement earlier, introducing a further 3,000 seasonal workers, so that\u2019s increasing it from 16,000 to 19,000 seasonal workers a year. I know that that will be welcomed by our dairy industry in particular. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022288783df-ade6-42d2-bd21-06ffa87dedf8\u0022\u003EAs has been pointed out, this is a bill to amend Fonterra\u2019s capital structure to help it with milk prices when we\u2019re seeing a potential decrease in milk supply; so to help give some certainty going into the future. It will also make it a bit more affordable for farmers to buy into Fonterra and become Fonterra-supplying farmers. So on that note, I\u2019d like to shout out to the really hard-working Fonterra members\u2014many of the 10,000 Fonterra farmers are in my electorate in Whanganui, particularly in South Taranaki and Stratford\u2014and I want to thank and acknowledge them for the vital role that they\u2019ve played in contributing to the success of our economic recovery and for taking the sharp edges off the global economic downturn that we\u2019re experiencing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022288783df-ade6-42d2-bd21-06ffa87dedf8\u0022\u003EThis bill is particularly important because, as I mentioned, we\u2019ve got a number of Fonterra farmers in my electorate. In fact, if you are familiar with State Highway 3 driving north, heading into H\u0101wera, just on the left there before you turn off to Fonterra\u2019s Whareroa plant, we\u2019ve got one of our local icons, the Fonterra cow. In addition to the Whareroa plant we\u2019ve got the Eltham cheese plant, which is another of Fonterra\u2019s plants, and the Kapuni plant in my electorate as well. So this is a crucial one for me, because Fonterra is a large employer in my electorate. So it is an absolute pleasure to be able to support this bill. I really look forward to hearing the submissions when they come to the Primary Production Committee which I sit on, and with that, I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u002293caf83fb17d490cacaea5e6a9305f6d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293caf83fb17d490cacaea5e6a9305f6d\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to speak to the Dairy Industry Restructuring (Fonterra Capital Restructuring) Amendment Bill, aka DIRA bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI join my colleague and friend across the House\u2014and colleague within the electorate, the wonderful Kaipara ki Mahurangi\u2014Marja Lubeck, who has rightly acknowledged the importance of the sector to the whole area including, as she says, Wellsford, as recognised in a couple of particular cases recently. So that\u2019s very pleasing, to hear that acknowledgment, and I join her in making it to the people of our area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s worth noting as well\u2014zoomed out, so to speak, geographically at least\u2014the importance of the rural sector, the primary sector, to our nation, most obviously the goods and services themselves, the importance of dairy to sustain us all. And in an economic sense, the export dollar that comes with those goods earning well for New Zealand\u2014particularly well recently, I understand. And the primary sector in general, dairy within that, and of course within that again\u2014concentric circles coming in\u2014focusing on Fonterra itself. Of course, that\u2019s only a part of the dairy sector, but it\u2019s a large part\u2014some 79 percent, I understand, so nearly four-fifths of the market and the supply and so forth within New Zealand. So, obviously, hugely important subject matter for a piece of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe legislation itself is significant because the way in which Fonterra\u2014as something of a special case business or entity within New Zealand\u2014is dependent on what the rules of the game that are set by this place allow it to do. Of course, in corporate law generally, that\u2019s the case. But Fonterra\u2014our largest company, I understand, and a particular set-up and arrangement deserving of this particular attention\u2014of course needs certainty to be able to operate in a way that is in accordance with the rule of law, in accordance with statute, and in a way that allows all of its key players to interact with the system in a way that is fair and reasonable for them but also maximises the gains and the production and the supply of the sector as a whole. Because as we\u2019ve discussed already at some length in this House\u2014previous speakers, including on the first occasion of it being debated, the first part of the first reading\u2014we all know how important it is to this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo, thinking about the process as a whole, others have touched on the fact that there has been consultation. Across the other side of the House they\u2019ve said, rather breezily, that the Government\u2019s been working with Fonterra and is keeping it very much happy. My colleague and friend the Hon David Bennett has struck a slightly more cautious note, suggesting that\u2019s important\u2014and, of course, he\u2019s right to say that it\u2019s important that the Government remain in step with Fonterra and those key players within that set-up, and in fairness to the market more generally. So that\u2019s a note of caution which all policy makers would do well to heed as the process goes forward. From here we look forward to a select committee process, second reading, committee of the whole House stage, and so forth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe select committee process that\u2019s coming up will be so important because that\u2019s the opportunity for this institution to hear from those who are on the ground, those who have muddy boots, who know exactly what is needed, they are experiencing\u2014pardon me?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b1365545b39428886747b2f5898618b\u0022\u003EMaureen Pugh\u003C/span\u003E: Red Bands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdeece7b93174a029328ec9ea8e2e20d\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, Red Bands; I\u2019ve had that clarification from Maureen Pugh, who\u2019s worn a pair of Red Bands or two in her time. I don\u2019t often wear red clothing or attire on this side of the House, but I think it\u2019s the one exception that\u2019s allowable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo those who know most will contribute well to that process. Our role in this House, of course, is to decide at the first reading whether the intentions seem worthwhile\u2014if the basic detail is workable\u2014and we\u2019ve concluded, in the National Party, that it\u2019s a case of so far so good. Obviously the detail is to be scrutinised carefully going forward. So, just considering what that basic level of detail is, it\u2019s about enabling different ways of shareholding, different levels of accountability and scrutiny within the company. For example, we\u2019ve seen\u2014in the way that the bill is put together\u2014a number of safeguards, I suppose we could say. So we\u2019re going to have an increased number of ministerial nominees to the milk price panel, from one to two\u2014a doubling, if my maths doesn\u2019t desert me\u2014and the requirement for an independent chair, appointed with the approval of a Minister. Of course, there\u2019s a certain amount of Government input to these decisions with ministerial nominees and approvals being required. We expect and hope that the Minister, from time to time, will exercise their responsibility in a cautious way, in a considered way, one that reflects not only the importance of the certainty that is needed to be enjoyed by the sector to continue to operate well but to reflect the ambition of the sector as well\u2014we\u2019ve seen that the restructure is being justified in terms of seeking to attract and retain supply in an increasingly competitive environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EOther safeguards, if I may call them that: the powers being given to the Commerce Commission to issue binding directions to Fonterra following reviews. There\u2019s been perhaps the closest it\u2019s come, I think, to a difference of opinion across the House in terms of the value of that. David Bennett may or may not be on the Christmas card list of the Commerce Commission, but, actually, he\u2019s right to express a healthy degree of scepticism about the performance of any Government agency. I think it\u2019s fair to describe them as that, albeit one that has a role of scrutiny\u2014considering, in particular, whether there are anti-competitive practices. We\u2019re talking, after all, about a company that enjoys a nearly 80 percent share in the market; it\u2019s almost anti-competitive by very definition. So the role of the Commerce Commission to be able to consider carefully the role of Fonterra is appropriate, and to be able to issue binding directions\u2014well, we\u2019ll see how that power is exercised, and, of course, it\u2019s always important that that is done in a reasonable and knowable fashion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019ve had, as I say, a bit of consultation already and that will continue. I think it\u2019s worth noting, however, that what we are entering into in this legislation, this new regime, is actually a continuation of an existing regime and an evolution of that rather than a revolution. So, for example, in 2012, Fonterra commenced its capital structure with those two markets, as they\u2019ve been described: Fonterra\u2019s shareholders\u2019 market and also the unit fund, the latter being where farmer shareholders are able to trade units in economic rights and shares\u2014of a non-voting nature, I understand\u2014in Fonterra. So they have skin in the game, so to speak, as well as mud on their boots, if you\u2019ll excuse the extended metaphor. I\u2019m trying to avoid the look of Maureen Pugh; she\u2019s going to give me some grief about it, no doubt. No doubt I deserve it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAnyway, the purpose is to provide the certainty, as I canvassed earlier. I didn\u2019t really go into what\u2019s meant by certainty, but there\u2019s a huge value in players in a market being able to know what the rules of the game are so they can act accordingly. If we think the purpose of a market is to maximise the gains\u2014and I don\u2019t just mean economic gains, although, in this case, it is of an economic nature as well as a social good that we have a strong dairy and rural sector. But for the rules of the game to be known, it\u2019s important that there isn\u2019t the unwarranted prospect of a legal challenge. I understand that the current Act\u2014that is to say the Act prior to the amendment that\u2019s going to be made by this legislation\u2014doesn\u2019t exclude or prohibit Fonterra from undergoing this capital sort of restructure, if you like, explicitly. But there\u2019s enough doubt about it to be a reasonable use of this House\u2019s time to want to exclude that possibility. Not in a way, I think, and not in a way, I hope, certainly, that would deny anyone existing legal rights. But, rather, just to create a more certain regime and to ensure that those who are involved in acting in good faith, in a way that\u2019s rational, according to the rules of the game as they understand it, and they honestly believe that to be the case, they won\u2019t be dragged through the courts with all the uncertainty as to time, cost, and outcome that would be implied in that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo, I\u2019ll just conclude my remarks on a more general nature, such as I began with, having delved into at least a little bit of the detail, which is to note the strategic importance for rural communities. Again, I acknowledge that Marja Lubeck has made that comment in relation to the community which we both are able to represent. I think it\u2019s worth noting that the community as a whole will benefit and thrive and prosper when the dairy farmers are able to do the things that they do because they provide, in turn, business and support for others who, in turn, provide business and support for others, and so on. So, for all those reasons, we commend, in good faith, this bill to the House. We look forward to further discussions at select committee and beyond.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd0a8d63861742d7bd0261d915b91ed1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd0a8d63861742d7bd0261d915b91ed1\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise to make a relatively brief final call this afternoon to sum up somewhat the main points. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EThree things come to mind, listening to the contributions made today and also previously in this debate. The first thing that comes to mind\u2014I think the most frequent comment that was made\u2014is that New Zealand dairy farmers are in fact world leading and that\u2019s been well acknowledged, as has the fact that Fonterra, the cooperative, has been a really central part to achieving that. Secondly, the bill will provide greater economic security for New Zealanders and also go some way to at least reducing that long-term risk to what is a $22 billion industry, our highest value export industry, in fact. And thirdly, we believe this bill strikes the right balance between supporting that shareholder mandate while also improving the transparency, which is important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ESo the final comment is that we believe certainly that it\u2019s important that this amendment bill proceeds quickly, particularly because it gives certainty to Fonterra, it gives certainty to farmers and the wider dairy sector. So I\u2019m pleased to support this bill and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022238861600ab647f6ae9df3e62e6f6815\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Dairy Industry Restructuring (Fonterra Capital Restructuring) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 108\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; New Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 12\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000317\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022751f682fa774425abbdc4402cafda116\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E: The question is, That the Dairy Industry Restructuring (Fonterra Capital Restructuring) Amendment Bill be considered by the Primary Production Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Dairy Industry Restructuring (Fonterra Capital Restructuring) Amendment Bill be reported to the House by 10 November 2022, and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting except during oral questions, during any evening on a day in which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, and outside the Wellington area, despite Standing Orders 193, 195, and 196.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 53\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00220f392995005a4204bd532cdc872e86fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f392995005a4204bd532cdc872e86fb\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Primary Production Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c4da90a47fde4810b282cd848c2ca509\u0022\u003EInstruction to Primary Production Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022dfdee11bc03e4c33a636442025d1014a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dfdee11bc03e4c33a636442025d1014a\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister of Agriculture: I move, That the Dairy Industry Restructuring (Fonterra Capital Restructuring) Amendment Bill be reported to the House by 10 November 2022, and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting except during oral questions, during any evening on a day in which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, and outside the Wellington area, despite Standing Orders 193, 195, and 196.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s important that the bill proceeds quickly to give certainty to Fonterra, farmers, and the wider dairy industry. As such, it is our intention to enact this bill before the end of the year to enable Fonterra to proceed with this capital restructure as soon as possible. It will ensure all relevant regulatory changes can be made before the next dairy season, and it provides some certainty for nearly 10,000 farmer shareholders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThis bill plays an important part in the ongoing resilience and prosperity of rural New Zealand. We undertook a public consultation from April to June this year where farmer organisations, Fonterra, independent dairy processors, and other affected groups submitted on the discussion document. The consultation process was focused on the practical implications and workability of the regulatory response package.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EEnacting the bill by the end of the year will require the select committee to be given a compressed deadline to consider the bill. This will be an opportunity for submissions on the bill to be considered, further to the already received submissions on the discussion document. I\u2019m therefore proposing that the bill be referred to the Primary Production Committee, with a deadline to report the bill back to the House of Representatives by 10 November 2022.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022a980c4a87eca4f1f8a038a38cb4841c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a980c4a87eca4f1f8a038a38cb4841c5\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u002222091bff21314718ae2418c5841520fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002222091bff21314718ae2418c5841520fa\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m happy to take a call on this, because we\u2019re in a situation here where we have a report-back period that is significantly shorter than what would normally be the case for a piece of legislation. In this instance we\u2019re talking only seven weeks or so, until early November, which raises some concerns around whether or not we\u2019re going to see the depth of submissions that we might like to see. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ESo from a dairy farming perspective, obviously the Dairy Industry Restructuring Act is an important piece of legislation, and we\u2019re at a stage in the dairy calendar at the moment where we\u2019re just coming off the back of the calving season, and I do just want to acknowledge all of those wonderful farmers in the mighty Waikato who\u2019ve put in the hard yards now for some eight or nine weeks through calving and are now finally seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. That\u2019s a hard piece of work. They finally get a bit of a break off the back of that at this time of year, and then we are very shortly into the mating season on-farm as well. That generally, in my area, starts in that first week of October, somewhere around 7 to 10 October typically, and so then there\u2019s another very busy period for six to eight weeks before the bulls then go out and the pressure starts to ease over the summer. That\u2019s the typical format we see in dairying in the Waikato and there are slightly different time frames around the rest of the country based on whether they\u2019re before or after climatically. So Southland is slightly further behind, for example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ESo on that basis there\u2019s some concern around the time frame and whether or not we\u2019ll be able to see a sufficient range of submissions by anyone who wishes to submit, given the pressures they may be facing on-farm within their own dairy businesses through that period of time and whether or not they\u2019ll be able to traverse fully the proposed changes in this legislation. Although at this stage the changes have been supported by 85 percent of Fonterra farmers\u2014all those who voted in December, I believe it was, for the proposed changes to the Dairy Industry Restructuring Act\u2014it is important that we now traverse that in more detail rather than just the vote and actually unpack that in a little bit more detail through the select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EOf course, I expect other processing companies to submit on this bill, because it has significant implications for them, whether it be Open Country Dairy or Miraka or Synlait or Tatua or any number of the wonderful dairy companies that we have around New Zealand. They may all have a slightly different opinion on the relevance of this legislation and the appropriateness of it, and, of course, on the timing around that and how their business model fits within that. So on that basis, the seven-week report back that we\u2019ve got is a very tight window of time, and we were typically expecting a number of months to be able to traverse that more fully. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EOften, as I\u2019m sure members will be aware, during that select committee process there can be requests for additional information or additional submissions from either the people who originally submitted or from other people or businesses\u2014I use the term \u201Cperson\u201D in the context of natural persons as well as different entities within New Zealand who may wish to provide some additional context to back up a submission that\u2019s been made by one of the other parties. Whether or not we would have the time frame to do that is seriously in question when we\u2019re looking at a very reduced period of only seven weeks compared to the longer period we would typically have. So I think we really need to consider whether seven weeks is appropriate and whether we should be extending that longer to allow, as I say, for not only the farmers to submit but also the dairy companies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EOf course, that\u2019s only two aspects. There could be any number of other submitters who may wish to engage on this bill, and such a tight window reduces significantly the impact to get this right. And, of course, the purpose of all of this is to ensure that we\u2019re able to get the best piece of legislation possible to go forward for the sake of the sector, to enable them to operate within that framework as best as possible. This really is an important change that\u2019s being proposed here. There are a number of aspects to it and a number of areas that have raised some concerns, and we\u2019ve heard that from speakers on this side of the House. There are aspects that will need to be addressed more fully at the select committee, and we\u2019ll be testing each of those individual concerns against the submissions made by the range of submitters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ESo, again, it\u2019s really important that we have the time frame to do that, and as we\u2019re moving, off the back of this week, to a two-week parliamentary recess, we\u2019re looking at only a few parliamentary sitting weeks in which to consider the bill under the proposed time frame that\u2019s been put forward by the Minister just now. It\u2019s a very short time frame, and I think we really do need to reconsider whether we should be pushing that further out. So I think, on that basis, I will end my contribution. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002298cb7e6c412747b88d95477abff57c73\u0022\u003EAccident Compensation (Maternal Birth Injury and Other Matters) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e078377427064c07a125060d181b93f8\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb6d5bd7861d471b982b05670791df98\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb6d5bd7861d471b982b05670791df98\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Accident Compensation (Maternal Birth Injury and Other Matters) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229137bf717ecf4391b2e7d4704232ef4a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8209f84d88a4b2aa393e3c3333f0a12\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Accident Compensation (Maternal Birth Injury and Other Matters) Amendment Bill be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThis is a very important day for the future of ACC. About 50 years ago, the Accident Compensation Act 1972 was passed. This established ACC, which has become an integral part of the social support system in Aotearoa New Zealand and has become part of the fabric of our country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EFifty years later, however, we see that women make fewer claims to ACC than men, have fewer injuries covered by the accident compensation scheme than men, and each woman\u2019s claim costs the scheme a third less than a man\u2019s, on average, in entitlements. We know that these inherent gender disparities in the accident compensation scheme are the result of, amongst other things, its focus on accident-related physical injuries, which are more common among men and in male-dominated types of work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s really important to note that the evidence that outlines the disparities that exist within the scheme for women and other population groups was not something that was accidentally come upon. It was information that I had requested because I wanted to understand, as the Minister, how ACC serves all of the population groups in New Zealand. And the reminder that this serves to all of us is how important it is to ask for that equity data, how important it is to ask questions with regards to how well women are served and how well other population groups are served, because it does help to inform very important decisions that need to be made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EWe also know that Aotearoa New Zealand looks very different from what it did 50 years ago. I\u2019m very proud as the Minister to have introduced this bill and of the progress that the bill has made through the House. This bill is a first of its kind. It brings all maternal birth injuries under the cover of ACC. This change will ensure that approximately 28,000 birthing parents each year will be able to access the support they need. Expanding ACC cover to maternal birth injuries will improve the support available to birthing parents who suffer childbirth injuries and, in particular, more timely access to surgeries and to pelvic physiotherapy. This delivers on the Government\u2019s 2020 election manifesto commitment to returning ACC to its original purpose of assisting all New Zealanders who have had an injury. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI really want to recognise all those who submitted to the Education and Workforce Committee on this bill. I want to thank those people who very bravely came forward and shared their stories. I also want to acknowledge all of the medical organisations that brought their expertise to the committee. All of these contributions helped shape the excellent bill which was reported back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI must acknowledge the members of the select committee, who diligently considered the large number of submissions on the bill, whose hard work resulted in two very sensible changes to the bill, which I wholeheartedly endorse. These changes ensure that the cover for maternal birth injuries is, and will continue to be, comprehensive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI do also want to acknowledge the Labour Party women\u2019s caucus. They were alongside me around the time that Radio New Zealand had shone a light on birth injuries and the inability for women to get cover for those birth injuries unless it was caused due to a treatment issue. It was a great example of us all being very passionate about a particular issue. Before I\u2019d even made any progress with officials, we had already discussed it as a women\u2019s caucus, and they have followed the progress of this bill the whole way through and enthusiastically supported me as the Minister who has had the privilege of leading this work. So I acknowledge the women\u2019s caucus in the Labour Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThe bill\u2019s committee of the whole House debate was very robust. I want to again take this opportunity to reassure everyone that the bill is intended to cover all maternal birth injuries that can be caused by childbirth. The bill\u2019s approach to covering maternal birth injuries is the best approach in ensuring that birthing parents have the support that they need to recover as quickly as possible in what will already be a time of great change in their lives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EAs well as the expansion of cover to maternal birth injuries, this bill also addresses some of the changes National made when last in office which unfairly disadvantaged tens of thousands of New Zealand workers. This bill provides more clarity on what is involved for gradual injury claims at work and more equitable cover for claimants. This includes bringing back the more claimant-friendly version of the test for work-related gradual injuries. The change will put the onus explicitly back on ACC to look into these claims and make it clearer to claimants such as firefighters what happens when they make a gradual process injury claim to ACC. We\u2019re also reducing the threshold for injury-related hearing loss cover from 6 percent to 5 percent hearing loss. This means that more claimants can receive the care they need. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI recently introduced another change in this bill as part of my commitment to remove access barriers to ACC and improve fairness and equity within the scheme. ACC\u00A0claimants who are unable to work as a result of their injuries and are on very low incomes are eligible for a top-up to a minimum weekly compensation rate which is linked to the minimum wage. Currently, these people must wait until 1 July each year for any increases in the minimum wage to be reflected in their weekly income. In 2022, this meant these people missed out on about $500. This change will mean these people will receive any planned increases to the minimum rate earlier, at the same time as the minimum wage increases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThis bill marks a step towards improving the gender balance, fairness, and equity of the accident compensation scheme. People giving birth in Aotearoa can be confident that they will be better supported by ACC with the expansion of cover provided by this bill. The bill also provides more support to injured New Zealanders, more clarity of what ACC covers, and equitable cover for claimants. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022e970c444526649c9bfcfff46611d9a6c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e970c444526649c9bfcfff46611d9a6c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u002227bd51f34e72439a869b94c26773ef48\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227bd51f34e72439a869b94c26773ef48\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I join the Minister in acknowledging that today is a milestone day for ACC and the ACC framework that has been in place for 48 years on 1 April this year, and was the result of a royal commission report that was released in 1967\u2014long before many of the people in this House were even born. It has endured. It is a world-leading scheme, but it was certainly written for a time and in a language that reflected the attitudes of the day. Indeed, if one reads that royal commission report, women are only mentioned in passing and to the degree where Justice Woodhouse publicly pondered what to do about the housewife that gets injured. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d72c450770b4505bb7d96b3998557e1\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: In the kitchen!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d84d0eb50bf47a587d11bd7d1524b12\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s on about page 115, Mrs Stanford, if you want to go and have a read of it. It is a remarkable reflection of the time. But times change, and this is an appropriate change to the legislation. As I said in my second reading on the Minister\u2019s comments about equity\u2014while I support this and this is a very much a step in the right direction in terms of gender equity in the ACC system\u2014I do urge caution that we try and equalise the number and cost of claims that ACC pays out across the gender divide, because, actually, we know that young men particularly are much greater risk takers and will harm themselves at greater rates and to a greater extent than their female counterparts. On the other hand, sexual violence and the sensitive claims that are lodged with ACC as a consequence are disproportionately women. Actually, the solution to both of those inequities is to have fewer claims because fewer injuries are occurring. I think we should all agree that that is the equity goal that we seek. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EIn that regard and in relation to maternal birth injuries, it\u2019s important to acknowledge that, on a world standard, we have one of the safest obstetric-care frameworks in the developed world, and it is certainly much, much lower than it was generations ago. But having achieved, I think, quite significant improvements in care for mothers and babies, we have plateaued somewhat over the last 30 to 40 years. And I think it\u2019s important that as we collect more data within the accident and compensation system, we identify\u2014while it is a no-fault system\u2014what the causes and the potential avoidable causes of harm are so that we can reduce the impact of injuries both to mothers and to babies \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI mentioned babies in the first and second readings because I believe that there are a number of harms that occur through the birthing process that are not yet covered by ACC\u2014even though I think they should be. And it\u2019s incredibly difficult to determine whether or not the sequelae that the baby experiences is a consequence of the labour or birth, or existed prior to the birthing process. Now, one could argue that the distinction is arbitrary and perhaps shouldn\u2019t be there. I think it is important that while we have an excellent scheme, we do cover for accidents, but there needs to be another look at that. It\u00A0won\u2019t be easy, but I think we do need to have a look at how we cover for babies who are born with injuries or with at least sequelae that could be caused by an injury. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EWe heard so many stories in the Education and Workforce Committee of harm, and it is a great day because mums will get better care. But I do worry that ACC is becoming, in many parts of our health system, the default physical and mental health provider. And it\u2019s happening because there is, frankly, better cover and better support if one is able to get a claim accepted by ACC. Now, the levy payers are paying for that\u2014and willingly, I think\u2014but they\u2019re also paying for a health system that, I think, should be delivering more than it is right now. We are seeing too many examples of waiting and failures in our health system that this Government needs to address. It can certainly celebrate today, but it can\u2019t celebrate what we are seeing in a growing and increasingly inert health system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ENow, there were some process questions that I was going to raise in the committee of the whole House. I won\u2019t traverse why that wasn\u2019t the case, but I think we need to actually have a look at it. Now, this could be homework for the ACC officials who I know will be listening, and the policy team either have or will\u2014or I hope will\u2014address them between now and when the Act comes into force. The first one is in reimbursement for our obstetric professionals where there is a birthing injury in a public hospital. Now, it\u2019s a bit pointy-headed, but, normally, if one suffers an accident and is taken to a public hospital, acute care is provided and ACC doesn\u2019t have to provide a direct payment. That\u2019s covered by something called the public health acute services levy, and ACC is not obliged to pay any more than that. Alternatively, a treatment injury occurs while a person is in a public hospital and ACC doesn\u2019t pay for that care either. That also goes to the public health acute service levy. With a birth injury, what tends to happen is, even if it\u2019s in a public hospital, the person providing the primary care\u2014the lead carer\u2014is either an independent midwife or a private obstetrician. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ENow\u2014I think, quite rightly\u2014if an injury has occurred and a claim has been accepted, they have a right to be reimbursed for the extra costs that they have undertaken, but the current Act prevents that, and I think that needs to be looked at. There is the ACC treatment reimbursement-of-costs regulations, and, I think, maternal care should be put on that list. And a further amendment is required, I think, to enable obstetricians and midwives to be able to claim for those extra costs. Currently, under section 88, they feel pretty unloved, by this Government anyway, and they\u2019re not being sufficiently reimbursed even for the normal labour and birth\u2014much less, the many abnormal labours and births that they\u2019re going to have to do, and the travel. ACC is now covering for acute care and I think they should have a look at that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThe other thing is in weekly compensation. We\u2019ve talked a lot about treatment and rehabilitation, but, actually, a mum who\u2019s had a baby and suffers an injury that prevents her from going back to work in the time that she should is eligible for weekly compensation. But what\u2019s clear\u2014and I don\u2019t think the select committee actually dived deep enough into this\u2014is that there needs to be a reconciliation between that and our paid parental leave and our 52-week unpaid parental leave. Very often, mums will apply for the maximum parental leave but have no intention of using it at all. They\u2019ll probably go back to work in a couple of months\u2014in less than a year or less than the 26 weeks of paid leave\u2014because it\u2019s less than the normal income. If they are injured and unable to do that, how is ACC going to distinguish between when they would have gone back and when they\u2019ve applied for leave? The other thing is: what if the other partner takes the unpaid maternity leave? Is the mum then still eligible for weekly compensation? I think they should be, but I don\u2019t think we\u2014as a House or, certainly, as a select committee\u2014had enough of a conversation about the logistics of weekly compensation. It is an issue, it will emerge, there will be serious harm that will prevent mums from going back to work at the time that they wanted to, and that needs to be accommodated. On the other hand, we don\u2019t want any gaming of the system either, and I\u2019m sure that\u2019s a very rare thing, but it is possible that if somebody could be earning weekly compensation that is greater than the 26-week paid parental leave payments, that also needs to be had a look at. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s a good day, but I think there\u2019s some work to do. I\u2019ll leave it to my colleagues to talk a little bit about gradual process and disease, because I was surprised that the Minister talked about firefighters. I would have thought that she might have actually just let that sleeping dog lie. They are not well treated by the scheme. I have said that we should look at a list of conditions where the science is showing that firefighters, due to their occupational exposure, are at a greater risk of getting cancers than the general population and that they should be included in an ACC scheme. I\u2019m keen to have a look at that when we do get back to Government. But let\u2019s finish on a positive: this is a really good bill, and I look forward to it passing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1550fad2e084bc6a51fd7bf0fa23346\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1550fad2e084bc6a51fd7bf0fa23346\u0022\u003EMARJA LUBECK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019ll pick up that positive note from the previous speaker, the Hon Michael Woodhouse, because this bill makes several changes to current legislation. I just want to make mention of a couple.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EFirstly, I\u2019ll pick up the challenge put on the floor by the previous speaker when he talked about gradual process injuries, because that is one thing that this bill does. It does make some changes\u2014well, actually, it reverses changes that were made in 2010 by the previous Government, where, in a bid to save cost, the onus was reversed from being on ACC to prove that a gradual injury was, in fact, not work-related to deny that cover. A change was then put in place to make sure that the actual claimant had to prove that the injury was work-related. So that is a change that we are reversing, so it makes it a lot more \u201Cclaimant friendly\u201D, if that\u2019s what you want to call it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EThe bill also reverses the threshold put in place in 2010, where the hearing loss of a worker for a work-related injury had to be 6 percent; that is reversed back to 5 percent. So that is a good change, because it makes sure that there is more of an opportunity for Kiwis to receive fair access to cover.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003ESecondly, and it has been talked about most in this debate, is, of course, the extension of the compensation scheme to cover birth injuries. In fact, the majority of the nearly 800 written submissions\u2014including 46 oral submissions\u2014that our committee dealt with, were heard on this particular topic. As the Minister already pointed out, there were very personal stories showing that birth injuries can be extremely serious and debilitating. They were very personal stories shared very bravely by our submitters, and we\u2019ve done it again, but I want to pause and really put on the record a massive thankyou to all of our submitters who took the time and who were brave enough to come before our committee and share those stories. I remember one of the submitters really specifically saying that while this bill would not apply to her personally, she said that she was speaking up in that select committee process about something to make a difference for others. That is, I think, a really significant and brave thing to do of people not thinking of themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a review clause within this bill that the Minister spoke about and that is to ensure that the list of birth injuries is futureproofed in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EBut additionally, what our select committee did, because the intention is for all birth injuries to be covered by this bill, is that our select committee, opened the briefing into the scheme for maternal birth injuries cover. What we actually put in our report was the line: \u201CWe hope to see the briefing reinstated in the 54th Parliament by the Education and Workforce Committee\u201D, and through this briefing there will then be an opportunity to review the way the bill is working in practice. That will then start before the formal ministerial review process, which kicks in three years after the bill comes in place. So, basically, we strongly urge that next committee to pick up that briefing and examine that list of maternal birth injuries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003ENow, when this bill is passed, 28,000 more women will benefit from the improved legislation. It\u2019s significant legislation. I want to thank the officials and advisers for their work on this bill; my colleagues around the House; a special mention to Sarah Pallett, as our subject matter expert doing her great work; but definitely thank you to the Hon Minister Sepuloni for her bringing this bill to the House. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce75113118e34ffb94c386dbed27472f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce75113118e34ffb94c386dbed27472f\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m very pleased to take a call on the Accident Compensation (Maternal Birth Injury and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. This is my first opportunity to contribute to this debate, even though I was a member of the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EI want to just start by picking up on something the previous speaker, Marja Lubeck, pointed out. It\u2019s been made very clear in the initial briefing to the Education and Workforce Committee\u2014that Marja is the chair of\u2014that, actually, prior to 2010, there was no threshold for hearing loss. So it wasn\u2019t that National shifted it from a certain percentage to a certain other percentage; we introduced the percentage and we did this in line with other countries like Australia and the UK. We did this in 2010. So contrary to what Marja Lubeck has just stated, we introduced that percentage; we didn\u2019t change it. It\u2019s interesting to note that, actually, official advice says\u2014there are several studies that suggest that hearing aids don\u2019t have any benefit until a person has between 5 percent and 6 percent hearing loss anyway. That was some of the information that we got at select committee. So the benefits of this change will be marginal, and, really, at best\u2014and this has been mentioned by previous speakers\u2014this is a bit of window dressing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EAs has been mentioned in this bill in prior readings, the ACC scheme will soon turn 50; 50 years since a relatively unique piece of legislation and world-leading piece of legislation has been introduced. But it is interesting to look at it and read some of the old documents\u2014that really does date it. If you fast forward to today, where woman are working far more than they were in the seventies\u2014Carmel Sepuloni mentioned in her initial speech today that women make fewer claims than men and, on average, their claims are about a third of the value of what men make. Now, it\u2019s interesting to note that, and this bill is really important today in the fact that it goes some way to adding more ability for women to claim on maternal birth injuries. But as my colleague Michael Woodhouse has pointed out in this reading today and in previous readings, what\u2019s really important to note as well, actually, is that the reason that men claim more and have higher claims granted is because of the risk taking that is inherent with young men. I can see this because I\u2019ve got a son and I can see this because I played hockey for many years with men, and they are inherently greater risk takers, far more reckless. But also you can understand why it is that they claim more often and that their claims are much more. So it\u2019s really important, as Michael Woodhouse pointed out, the equity needs to be gained from both sides, not only in increasing the cover to woman\u2014importantly, as we\u2019re doing today\u2014but also in making sure that men are claiming at a far lesser rate by better prevention measures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EBut it is very important to note that there are some historical discrepancies as to why women don\u2019t claim as much. And that\u2019s why this bill is so important. It\u2019s been mentioned many times that we know that about 85 percent of women\u2014most woman\u2014will experience a maternal birth injury, ranging from things that are very minor to things that are very severe and life changing. Many women in the past have struggled to get treatment and support. We all know someone who\u2019s been in this situation or it may have happened to one of us. For me, it was a friend of mine in a coffee group who suffered an extremely severe prolapse which had huge impacts on her bonding with her child and caused severe pain for a really long time\u2014and she wasn\u2019t able to get any of the support that will be offered through this bill. So while the bill will change this, and it may be too late for my friend, it will aim to help 28,000 women. Again, important to note that that number has increased by about 18,000 since the first reading\u2014from 18,000 to 28,000 as new information arose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThis bill will allow women like my friend and those other 28,000 women to access surgery and pelvic physiotherapy, cover which ACC has previously denied to many woman, resulting in pretty negative effects. And there have been a load of petitions on this case. At this point, I want to acknowledge some of the people who need acknowledging, given this is the first time I\u2019ve spoken on the bill that was at my select committee. Firstly, we need to acknowledge Kirsty Watt, who petitioned Parliament back, I believe, in 2020\u2014the last two years are a bit of a blur, but I believe it was 2020\u2014to make improvements to care and rehabilitation for women post-birth. Her petition has made a difference. I want her to know that it\u2019s made a difference. She shone another very important bright light on this issue, and here we are today. So petitions do make a huge difference, and I would encourage more people to do them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EWe also need to thank the submitters, the 46 that came to our select committee, and the nearly 800 that wrote in. But for those who turned up to select committee, it was very personal and very gruelling for some of those women who needed to go into quite graphic detail in front of strangers at the select committee. Their bravery needs to be acknowledged, because, actually, that graphic detail was really important for the deliberations of the bill. So I want to say to each of those women who came in front of our select committee, thank you very much for sharing your very, very personal stories. And it\u2019s important to note here, given their stories, that these maternal birth injuries can cause a huge amount of mental anguish, a lack of confidence, lack of bonding with the baby\u2014as what happened to my friend\u2014and difficulties with relationships as well. This bill will go some way to helping those women.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EIt was discussed in the bill around whether or not we should have a list of injuries or whether or not we should just have the words \u201Cmaternal birth injuries\u201D. What we\u2019ve settled on, I think, is the right way to go, with a list of injuries, as the maternal birth injuries definition was too broad and could be applied inconsistently. I know that the Green Party disagrees with this view, but I think that we got it right. It was really important in the deliberations of the select committee, actually, and, at this point, I probably should thank Sarah Pallett as well, because it was very useful having a midwife on the select committee who could actually say to us, well actually, what we thought was a definition that covered lots of injuries, in fact, didn\u2019t. And so many of the things that the officials had thought were covered in this list of definition weren\u2019t. So there were a number of cases where we added\u2014certainly around tears, I believe\u2014words to make sure that all of those individual injuries were covered, even though, as the Minister has said, she intended all maternal birth injuries to be covered. And so we very thoroughly went through and made sure that they were, in fact\u2014not only that, there were other injuries that were thought to be consequential injuries and would therefore be covered by the Act, but, again, the officials and Sarah explained to us that, actually, some of these injuries could be caused during the birthing process and weren\u2019t always consequential. So we\u2019ve added those in as well. So there was a lot of work done to make sure that we got that list right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EI do understand the Green Party\u2019s problem with the bill and that it should just be a bit broader. But that\u2019s, I think, been covered in the fact that we\u2019ve got this review built in that needs to take place three years after the bill has been introduced, to make sure that there aren\u2019t any maternal birth injuries that aren\u2019t being covered that have slipped through the cracks, which may happen. And, look, I hope not, because we did go through this with a fine-tooth comb, but the officials did fill us full of confidence that they would take this review seriously and add in any maternal birth injuries that hadn\u2019t been covered in that three-year period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EI just want to pick up very briefly on something that Michael Woodhouse, my colleague, has mentioned, and that is around the injuries to babies. I also think this needs to be looked at, and the reason I think that is because when I go into schools and I talk to teacher aides, they say to me, well, this child is fully covered under ACC because of a domestic violence incident that happened when they were a baby and the injuries that they got mean that they are covered by ACC, but this child over here is not covered because their injury happened at birth. And as we know, getting covered by ACC at birth can be a bit difficult and it\u2019s not always clear, as Michael Woodhouse has pointed out. I do think, in line with what Michael said, that this needs looking at, because it\u2019s pretty heartbreaking when you\u2019re in a classroom and two children with exactly the same needs are being treated extremely differently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EI will just finish, again, by saying thank you very much to all the submitters, thank you to Kirsty and also to Sarah on our select committee for giving us a hand with this bill. I\u2019m very happy to commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022abf60b9b6320442493fcd99067e40e32\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022abf60b9b6320442493fcd99067e40e32\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to take a call on this bill, the Accident Compensation (Maternal Birth Injury and Other Matters) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a very proud day for us, today, to be passing the third reading of this important bill. I\u2019m very proud to live in a country that has an accident compensation scheme that\u2019s been in place for over 40 years now. That scheme provides help to thousands of New Zealanders. It\u2019s not perfect, but it is certainly a lot better than the absence of such a scheme. Today, we are improving this scheme once again by making sure\u2014the most salient change in this bill will mean that when people give birth, if they are physically injured as a result of that birth, they are entitled to compensation. And I think this is really the basic thing that we can provide to people doing such an important role for the future of our country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EAgain, I think it\u2019s important to emphasise, and the Minister has said it in previous readings of this bill and today again in the House, that her view and also the shared view of this House that these changes are intended to cover all physical maternal abuse injuries caused by birth. It is a significant change to the current system where we don\u2019t have that cover for people who can sometimes go through\u2014what we heard in select committee and what others have spoken of\u2014an extremely difficult physical process of birthing a child. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EAnd I also want to join other colleagues in thanking the brave submitters for coming to our committee. It\u2019s difficult that those people won\u2019t be covered by this legislation, because it isn\u2019t retrospective. But as soon as it\u2019s commenced, which will be at the beginning of next month, the mothers and parents and babies who are injured through birth will be entitled to ACC cover. So I say it\u2019s very much time for this bill and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u002243fd0a4bea844fd89eb01fdf9a64178d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243fd0a4bea844fd89eb01fdf9a64178d\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s with real excitement and pleasure that I get to take a final call on the Accident Compensation (Maternal Birth Injury and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. As others have said, this is a very significant day for us as a country. We\u2019ve had this cornerstone social insurance scheme in the country that\u2019s provided compensation and rehabilitation and support for thousands of New Zealanders every year, but it has excluded the injuries and the experience of thousands of birthing parents because it was designed in a time when the experience of birthing parents and women was not in the mainstream political discussion. It was an addendum way down in that report, as already mentioned by a previous speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve got to say, as a feminist who has been active on issues of equality for decades now, it\u2019s been shocking to me to hear the submissions come through this process of the extent of pain and injury that has been suffered by birthing parents and women and their wh\u0101nau, and how much that has been covered up and silenced in our society. So I do want to offer my thanks to everybody who submitted, and also to the 40,000 New Zealanders who signed the open letter to Minister for ACC in September last year, including almost all of our children\u2019s organisations and women\u2019s organisations and many of our health organisations, calling for this comprehensive cover, and, most particularly, the 900 birthing parents who shared their specific stories of injury. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI know that this has been traumatic for so many people, and this is a warning for anybody who may be listening who may have been affected by it that I am about to share some of those stories now, because I believe that it is important that some of the extent of the injury is on record in this House because it\u2019s become very apparent to me the level of shame that\u2019s been held by people who have experienced these injuries. We need to do more to break that shame and destigmatise these injuries. So I am going to share some of those stories in the House today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll quote: \u201CI suffered from third-degree tears through my clitoris and anus during my first birth. The anaesthetic hadn\u2019t kicked in yet. I was sewn back up by hand. I requested a female and was given a male. I already had PTSD before this, so it just added to the trauma. I felt every stitch until the last few, when the anaesthetic finally began kicking in. I couldn\u2019t walk unaided for days. For six months straight, I couldn\u2019t feel when I needed to pee and had accidents multiple times a day until almost nine to 12 months after birth. I couldn\u2019t participate in any sexual activity. I found physically walking painful, but had to as I had no vehicle. It\u2019s been nine years; I wear a pad every single day because accidents are still happening. No pelvic floor exercises ever worked. This should have been covered by ACC. I am shocked and appalled that it isn\u2019t already. This needs to happen as soon as possible, and all historic traumatic births need to be covered.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThen, from another woman: \u201CIn October 2020, I gave birth to my daughter and sat on a wheelchair in the car park, lobby entrance of Middlemore Hospital. Because of the position I was in, my daughter left me suffering with severe tailbone pain. Doctors say there\u2019s nothing I can do. I applied for ACC, but it isn\u2019t covered, but giving birth on a wheelchair was definitely an accident. I suffer with pain every day. I can\u2019t sit for long periods of time. I need an X-ray and treatment for it as it\u2019s really affecting my mental health.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EAnother story: \u201CIn September, I gave birth to a baby that was 8lb 3. My baby was two weeks early due to a rare pregnancy complication. I\u2019m now five weeks post-partum and have developed pelvic organ prolapse. This means that my uterus is bulging out my vaginal opening. This is treatable with physiotherapy. ACC will not cover this. If prolapses are left untreated, they get worse and the organ protrudes further until the point of needing surgery, which can cause infertility. Once a prolapse gets to a moderate stage, it\u2019s unlikely physiotherapy will do anything. To fix this, I have to spend more than $100 per session to help with this condition, but being on a low income, I cannot afford this. This means I cannot go to physio and my condition is only going to get worse over time. This will lead to surgery and a high chance of infertility.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThese stories are hard to listen to, but, boy, they\u2019ve got to be much, much harder to live, with that reality. So today is a milestone that birthing parents, women in this situation from 1 October, will be able to reach out and get the support that they need to prevent many of those consequential impacts in terms of their mobility, in terms of their relationships, and in terms of their ability to parent, their integrity of their bodies, and their life choices. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThis is hugely significant, and I do want to acknowledge Sarah Pallett and others on the committee for the work that we did to ensure that the list was extended so that now anterior wall prolapse, posterior wall prolapse, or uterine prolapse; coccyx fracture or dislocation; obstetric anal sphincter injury tears or tears to the perineum, labia, vagina, vulva, clitoris, cervix, rectum, anus, or urethra; post-partum uterine inversion; pubic ramus fracture; and symphysis pubis capsule or ligament tears will also be added to the cover where they were not initially. So that is a significant extension to the bill because of the contribution of people with lived experience in this area, and I hope that that gives them hope in our democratic processes as well as the ability for Governments to catch up with the real world and respond when voices are raised that harm is being done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EOf course this bill\u2014as we have raised many times\u2014is not perfect in the view of the Greens. We wanted more general cover rather than a list. We wanted to ensure that injuries to babies are covered where they are excluded from this, and it was fantastic to hear that the National Party is now considering that. My understanding of Labour Party direction is that it is also to remove those inequities in coverage for support services for disability as a result of accident and disability as a result of birth, and that has been signalled by a previous Minister. So it feels to me as if we are building\u2014partly through, hopefully, submissions\u2014consensus across the House for that next step. That is critically important, because those inequities are just unjustifiable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EWe also wanted stand-alone mental trauma to be covered, and it\u2019s great that it is now on the Minister\u2019s agenda to be looking at the mental health boundaries more broadly in the legislation, because that really does need to be done. She has also signalled that in respect of the Nick Smith changes, there are more changes to come to overturn those contractions\u2014that was probably an inappropriate word in this context\u2014or the bringing in of the purpose of the bill that happened in 2010. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI do just, finally, want to say that the hearing loss threshold\u2014I was not convinced that the threshold is necessary. While it says that hearing aids may only be valuable from 5 percent or 6 percent, somebody can lose 17 percent of hearing or most of the hearing in one ear and it won\u2019t reach that threshold and they would have value. We don\u2019t support the arguments from the officials in keeping the threshold that high, and there\u2019s more I could say on gradual process, but I won\u2019t. Today is a day primarily to celebrate, and I am. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022 data-id=\u0022d98170fd5a4944c8a784a8028009beb8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d98170fd5a4944c8a784a8028009beb8\u0022\u003ETONI SEVERIN (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m proud to stand here, on behalf of the ACT Party, on the Accident Compensation (Maternal Birth Injury and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. As previous speakers have said, this is definitely a great day for birthing-women in New Zealand. It\u2019s something that has been overlooked for many years, and, especially, that\u2019s become very apparent when we had all our submitters come to the Education and Workforce Committee and give us their stories of very uncomfortable lives, which some of them still carry to this day\u2014and some of these injuries occurred up to 40 years ago. So it\u2019s sad to say that they are not going to be recognised. However, from 1 October on, women shall be recognised and looked after.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022\u003EThe other thing is, again, I\u2019d also like to thank Sarah Pallett, who is a midwife, because she helped guide us through these very interesting injuries, which I will not list. But, most of all, I am very proud to say that the officials sat, listened, and came back with a revised list for us. It was great to hear that they were listening to the lovely submitters, even though their circumstances varied. The other thing is that the officials had a three- to five-year review. As most of us said, we thought five years was just a little bit too long, so I was very pleased for them to come back with the three. They also mentioned to us that they were going to be monitoring the system and, hopefully, they\u2019re going to put a robust monitoring system in, so if anything does show up sooner than the three years, it will be added to the list. Now, that\u2019s very important because, as we all know, there are things that constantly happen that we, who are not experts, would not know, but we would hope the medical profession would be able to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022\u003EAlso, with my other colleagues, especially with National and the Greens, around injuries to babies\u2014you know, the hard thing is also knowing what is natural and what is an injury. There\u2019s so many grey zones, but there are so many babies that have come away with injuries from birth that have not been picked up and looked after by ACC, which is very sad to say that these kids then continue through their lives having difficulties in many different forms. So, again, I would actually support this bill to see how we can improve it. But the biggest thing of all, I foresee, is we\u2019ve got to make sure that our health system and ACC are communicating a bit better. We know there is that grey zone between what is medical and what is an accident, but, the thing is, if we don\u2019t know, then we can\u2019t know, but if they report it, we can find out and we can add these things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022\u003ENow, the other thing I\u2019d like to bring up is I know that we wanted to get this bill through by October. However, I felt a little bit disappointed that the select committee, of the whole debate\u2014there were some questions that we still wanted to get a few clarifications around. It\u2019s not because we were opposing things, but just to get some clarifications on a few things that were in this other matters bill. However, I felt that it was not given its due course. I don\u2019t think it would have gone on for long; however, it\u2019s just sad that it was closed down, I felt, a little bit too soon, and we could not debate a few things, which is what I thought we were here\u2014and because, also, there might have been something in that that they would be able to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022363a5d2f65694e69a915a1b6fd60bd1d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Can I just ask the member to come back to the third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022764f93fd5bc54aeb9faeb7552402e2ca\u0022\u003ETONI SEVERIN\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Also, as they estimated, because we added to this bill more injuries, around 28,000 birthing women would be included in this\u2014a lot greater than what they thought. Also we know that that\u2019s going to be another huge expense on all this, but, hopefully, it\u2019ll be a great expense to make women feel a lot more comfortable, and, also, for women to be able to possibly go back to work sooner, if they wish to, because they have had the right treatments to fix the problems that can occur during birthing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022\u003EThe other thing is, mostly, that the other matters, as Michael Woodhouse said\u2014there are a few things in it that we could have debated a little bit more, but because the majority of this bill was around the maternity injuries, it took up most of our time at the select committee for the hearing. So we missed out, I think, as Jan Logie said, around hearing\u2014there could have been maybe a little bit more robust information around hearing\u2014as well as, again, what\u2019s considered of long-term effects in section 30, and, also, as the Hon Carmel Sepuloni mentioned, about firefighters, which has been a hugely contested thing, as Michael Woodhouse said, around cancers that have been proven around the rest of the world. So it would be very interesting to see if some of these things could be possibly taken up in the next round, if not by Labour, maybe National in the next few years, if they become Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229d892f20-579d-4c43-8247-7ab72c4f7c2e\u0022\u003EBut, overall, I\u2019m very pleased to say that this bill is, hopefully, going to give around 28,000 birthing women a greater opportunity for a better future for them in the long term. So I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb3375b786c449b2ad18f3fc10243d1d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb3375b786c449b2ad18f3fc10243d1d\u0022\u003ESARAH PALLETT (Labour\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you so much, Madam Speaker. I am so proud to be standing here this afternoon as part of a Labour Government that has brought this bill to the House. I can attest to the fact that, as chair of the w\u0101hine caucus\u2014Labour\u2019s women\u2019s caucus\u2014I am so proud of our Minister Carmel Sepuloni for bringing this to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EThis bill will benefit, as we\u2019ve heard, 28,000 birthing people. That\u2019s 76 a day who will benefit from this piece of legislation. And, I have to say, the vast majority of those will be women, but we must remember in this conversation that non binary, transgender, and other gender diverse folk also give birth, and it\u2019s really important that we continue to acknowledge that in this House. I was struck, listening to the heartbreaking stories that have been shared\u2014some of them this afternoon, in select committee\u2014that, actually, many of them should have been covered as treatment injuries. So I can really appreciate that the intention of this bill is that all physical birthing injuries are covered. It takes away any ambiguity, it takes away any capacity for argument, and it allows those birthing people, those women, to receive the care that they need at the time that they need it, without delay.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003ESo I am incredibly proud to be bringing this to the House in its third reading, with my colleagues. I can only imagine the benefits that it will bring. I\u2019d also like to thank all of the select committee, which I am not a part of, for their incredible work in making sure that this bill did do exactly what was intended to do: to cover all physical birthing injuries. I just want to thank everybody that has been involved. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00229e536c3281d24db8b5e335c739574e90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e536c3281d24db8b5e335c739574e90\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Harete Hipango\u2014five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022 data-id=\u0022cdd88c9abf6041448e89ac6cbf58832f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cdd88c9abf6041448e89ac6cbf58832f\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, and following on from my parliamentary colleague Sarah Pallett, in her previous profession as a midwife, I certainly acknowledge the contribution given to the Education and Workforce Committee, and also the submitters, members from the public who genuinely expose ourselves. And not having sat or served on the select committee, but having read the report and the detail of the submissions that have been made, particularly for the amendment within new Schedule 3A, inserted by Schedule 2 to the bill, specifying\u2014with clarity, with specificity\u2014the nature of the injuries to women who are birthing children to now be covered and treated under this Accident Compensation (Maternal Birth Injury and Other Matters) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EBeing a short call, and being one of the last speakers in the House to address this matter today, I\u2019ve listened with particular interest and note the debates, the contributions of previous speakers. I harken back to the days in the 1980s, when I studied law and the Accident Compensation Corporation Act\u2014as it was then\u2014we studied that. And my colleague the Hon Michael Woodhouse made mention of the royal commission inquiry in 1967, which initiated the bill that was passed into law\u2014the Accident Compensation Act\u2014on 1 April 1972, 48 years ago, which came into operation on 1 April 1974. So hearing my colleague Michael Woodhouse talk about the royal commission of inquiry\u2014the chair of that inquiry, I do recollect as a law student, was Sir Owen Woodhouse. And the legislation of the day\u2014internationally, New Zealand was a trailblazer in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EI always try and make a correlation from personal experience too, and having listened to Sarah Pallett, as a former midwife, speaking\u2014I remember when I gave birth to one of my three children over 30 years ago, and the midwife who was helping with his delivery. He was an unexpected home birth, my son\u2014and the midwife, regrettably, as a result, put her back out; so no doubt she lodged a claim for ACC as a result of a slipped disc.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EBut little did I know that my son, at the time, had a heart defect and that was detected later. And the law didn\u2019t allow at the time\u2014and certainly, he received the appropriate treatment. However, a number of we women in the House who have birthed children, some of us have been physically traumatised; some of us have been mentally traumatised. The mental trauma can prolong and endure, and those elements have been addressed in the minority view of the Green Party. And appropriately, I raise that because this week is Mental Health Awareness Week. So those are elements to factor in perhaps in due course; in time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EBut I do commend the members from the public who have been through those personal experiences. And harkening back again as a woman, as a mother, there was some physical trauma that I endured that, perhaps if this legislation were available at the time, the treatment would have been made available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EI\u2019m just going to move on again to something else. Just in terms of the process, as a lawyer, I represented a number of ACC claimants, and I had a brief word with my colleague the Hon Michael Woodhouse, a former Minister of the ACC. And I acknowledge Minister Sepuloni in terms of leading this legislation with commendable amendments\u2014particularly addressing the birth trauma and what people go through. I\u00A0picked up the reference to babies who suffer injuries as a result of the birthing process as well, but I\u2019m going to come back to matters of process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EAs a lawyer representing claimants, but also having lodged a claim as a practising lawyer myself in medical misadventure\u2014the process wears many people down. And undoubtedly there\u2019s a correlation between whether people have a valid claim or not. And speaking with my colleague in the hall before coming into the Chamber, there is an issue that does need to be taken into consideration. Many people are not eligible for legal aid when appealing decisions by the ACC authorities. So that\u2019s something to harken and bear in mind in due course. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EIn finishing off on a positive note, I commend this bill to the House, commend the members who served on the select committee, and commend the members of the public who exposed their vulnerabilities and submitted to pass this into law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5de37491d124f2b9cad41358ed1c290\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5de37491d124f2b9cad41358ed1c290\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Barbara Edmonds\u2014five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b58b895bc81f4b0b805b5270c5f5c8c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b58b895bc81f4b0b805b5270c5f5c8c9\u0022\u003EBARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m incredibly grateful to be able to take a call on the Accident Compensation (Maternal Birth Injury and Other Matters) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EI\u2019m incredibly grateful to our Minister the Hon Carmel Sepuloni for her fortitude and ability to act. When the issue was raised with her, she acted and as a member of a proud Labour w\u0101hine caucus, I\u2019m incredibly grateful to our sister and Minister for her kindness, and am grateful for all the 28,000 birthing parents who will be covered by this bill. I don\u2019t have any experience on the select committee, any personal experience, but throughout this debate I\u2019ve listened to the numerous members and so I am incredibly grateful to the Education and Workforce Committee members for the work that they did on this bill. I\u2019m incredibly grateful for Sarah Pallett for her experience. She is one of our strongest w\u0101hine members, who is constantly driving for w\u0101hine measures and, as a midwife herself, she knows exactly what she was talking about. So I\u2019m grateful to Sarah Pallett for her work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EWhat I can speak to is my personal experience. Having eight children within a period of nine years, I\u2019ve got a bit of experience! So if you put them back to back, apparently I would have been pregnant for a period of six years. But, nevertheless, I was also very grateful to the medical help I had at the time that I never experienced an injury. I know that for a lot of women and for parents it is such a vulnerable time having a child, it is such a traumatic time, and it can also be a quite beautiful time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo, on that note, I\u2019d like to, again, thank the Minister, thank the members, and thank our Labour w\u0101hine caucus for making sure that for 28,000 parents, when this bill has commenced, they now have an opportunity to be able to recover with the integrity and the respect that they deserve, under this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u0022bef461605ad7417689c2ef839ca884c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bef461605ad7417689c2ef839ca884c0\u0022\u003EJO LUXTON (Labour\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to take a call on this, what is quite a technical piece of legislation. Before I begin my contribution, I would like to acknowledge the Minister who has brought this piece of legislation to the House, the Hon Carmel Sepuloni, the Labour w\u0101hine caucus, who worked with her prior to it coming in to the House, but mostly I want to acknowledge the nearly 800 woman or people that submitted on this piece of legislation. We heard from Jan Logie about some who had some pretty horrific stories to tell us, and they opened up, as we\u2019ve heard, basically, to strangers, to the select committee, to the public, because a lot of it was live streamed, etc. So that\u2019s a pretty big deal for people to do that, and open up knowing that they were not likely to be covered from this piece of legislation because it is not retrospective, but they wanted to do their bit to ensure that, going forward, women would be able to be covered should something happen during their birthing experience.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EWhat we heard a lot of is that\u2014and we\u2019ve heard people talk about this before\u2014often, men make claims to ACC and they have a lot more coverage than what women have previously, and for, sometimes, similar issues beyond the incident that happened. I mean, for example, we heard from one submitter whose husband had been out socialising at night and happened to have a slip at the end of his socialising, and he caused himself to have a strain, and yet when she had a similar injury through childbirth, she was not covered. So that\u2019s been where the system has been quite, quite unfair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EWhat we also heard in the select committee is that around 85 percent of women suffer from an injury during their birthing experience. That is a heck of a lot of people. We\u2019ve also heard from\u2014as part of the submitters and submissions that we heard, there were some changes made to the piece of legislation, and one of those changes was that additional injuries were going to be added to it to ensure that, actually, all childbirth injuries will be covered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m really proud of this piece of legislation. There are other parts to this bill, but the part I wanted to focus on was around the maternal birth injury. So I\u2019m very proud to commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00228e70546789ff453fa8e1223acca3666e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e70546789ff453fa8e1223acca3666e\u0022\u003EMAUREEN PUGH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m happy too to stand, on behalf of the National Party, in support of the Accident Compensation (Maternal Birth Injury and Other Matters) Amendment Bill in its third and final reading here today. I think some of the debates that we\u2019ve heard here, some of the speeches from members across the House, remind me of a conversation we had this afternoon at the Commonwealth Women Parliamentarians event, where we talked to the National Student Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting. In that conversation, we talked about the work of select committees, where a lot of the grunt that happens in this place happens\u2014at the select committees. I think what we\u2019re seeing today is that collegial experience, where everybody is aligned and so the very best comes out of the parliamentary system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EI too congratulate the members on the Education and Workforce Committee. I was not privileged to be part of the interrogation of this bill, but I do acknowledge the contribution that the team members have made, and also the submitters, on what is a very sensitive topic for many of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EI\u2019d just like to go back to part of the process that we\u2019ve been through in the debate on this bill. Sadly, in the committee of the whole House, there was a truncated debate, and there were some parts of the debate that weren\u2019t able to be expressed and aired for the public\u2019s feedback. But I note that\u2014I think there was something like four of the Green Party\u2019s Supplementary Order Papers that were unable to be debated; there was certainly one from the Hon Michael Woodhouse. Minister Sepuloni\u2019s\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f954bfedeaf416e96e5bd537e4204ef\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just reminded the member, this is a third reading speech. So passing reference to processes around select committee\u2014yep. But the main substance should be the third reading and the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ba056fa4e4145169d22dbd00c77098b\u0022\u003EMAUREEN PUGH\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. Thank you for your guidance, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EEarlier this afternoon, the Green member Jan Logie mentioned that she would have liked to have seen more general cover from this ACC bill. But I also note that the bill itself does have a three-year formal review process. So where we have a list of conditions that are mentioned in this bill\u2014and I won\u2019t repeat them; I think Jan Logie did a great job of mentioning them. Some of them actually are very difficult to get your tongue around. But they all certainly are very difficult for women to deal with at the time, and, you know, in my own personal experience, they do take some recovery. So even though we have these six new conditions listed in the bill, I have confidence that the formal review process three years after the bill is enacted will allow for further conditions perhaps to be identified and added.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EAs Sarah Pallett, who spoke very recently and is certainly the member of the committee with the most experience in this field, mentioned before about the 28,000 claims, we know in the report that the 28,000 claims was an estimate. There is not any sort of real data that could back up what that might be. So, on that basis, we know that there could be around 28,000 extra claims made to ACC for this, and that, we hope, will be financially manageable by ACC.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EBut I\u2019d also like to use the opportunity to work through one of the other clauses in the bill, clause 8, which was about work-related gradual process, disease, or infection, including occupational noise-induced hearing loss and accidents such as explosions. I realised, in reading the report, that it is quite a technical assessment that is made about hearing loss. It was mentioned earlier on that if you have a 17 percent loss of hearing in one ear\u2014excuse me, it\u2019s a total loss of hearing in one ear, that is a 17 percent bilateral hearing loss; whereas if you have a 17.4 percent hearing loss in one ear, that is a 5.2 percent bilateral hearing loss, which would have fallen under the current 6 percent threshold. And that is why the bill reduces the hearing loss from 6 percent to 5 percent, so that if it is a gradual process, it will be covered by this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EBut the other issue that has not been clarified\u2014and we ran out of time in previous debates to get some kind of feedback or assurance\u2014was around that gradual process and whether ACC in this bill would indeed cover it, and that was in relation to the exposure over time, which would be the gradual process, that our firefighters have when they are undertaking their job in fighting the fires, because as we know, the firefighters who attend these fires have often no idea what it is they are walking into, because they don\u2019t know what equipment is inside that house, what materials, what the furniture is made of, etc., etc. The constant exposure to these toxic fumes has now been noted by the World Health Organization as carcinogenic to humans, and as\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202b081a2d6254e0b8295ba3176ac0cf6\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220740635b48c14551879d9661cc6e7d30\u0022\u003EMAUREEN PUGH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014Michael Woodhouse mentioned earlier, this is something that could be looked at in the future in terms of getting some further cover for our firefighters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EThe bill itself has clarified where ACC cover is going to be implemented, but it also clarifies where it is not, and so we have made clear in this that it does not apply if death was as a consequence of suicide or the assisted dying in accordance with the End of Life Choice Act. Maybe that\u2019s just a clarification that may not have needed to be made, but we do have it in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EI commend the process that we\u2019ve been through with this debate. It\u2019s always good to see the cooperation across the House. It\u2019s always good to see that this House is not always divided on the bills that come in front of it. We are very happy, as the National Party, to support common-sense legislation, and, as a consequence, I commend this bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022 data-id=\u002232bbbdbac89246049b926230c8e05fb6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002232bbbdbac89246049b926230c8e05fb6\u0022\u003EANGELA ROBERTS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is my honour to take the last call on this amazing process\u2014a very short one; that in no way reflects on how important the mahi of the last 18 months has been. I just need to acknowledge a group of people who we haven\u2019t acknowledged at this stage, and that is our officials from the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment and ACC. It wasn\u2019t even on their work plan, and when this issue was raised, they stepped up, they were nimble, they were responsive, and within 18 months\u2014it sounds like a long time\u2014they\u2019ve managed to get us here today. They didn\u2019t do it alone. Many have acknowledged the expertise that we were lucky to have at the select committee, the Education and Workforce Committee, with Sarah Pallett, the leadership and courage of our Minister the Hon Carmel Sepuloni, and our colleagues across the House who sat in on the select committee and really took this challenge on and made sure we ended up in a pretty good place. I just want to acknowledge that select committee process for a moment, and the magic is that we have the expertise that comes to the select committee\u2014not just the professionals but those women who shared their stories\u2014and that is why I am very pleased and honoured to commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1169ffae0f040209addfd8cf012ceed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1169ffae0f040209addfd8cf012ceed\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Talk about brinkmanship, members. Well done. The time has come for me to leave the Chair for the dinner break. The House will resume at 7 p.m., and congratulations, Minister Sepuloni.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222d746fc9a82a490f9a91be74dcff891f\u0022\u003ECriminal Proceeds (Recovery) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228a883d72f230416eb21d74ba2c0ac370\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb03b24e828040e3a3f943e741029ead\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb03b24e828040e3a3f943e741029ead\u0022\u003EHon KIRITAPU ALLAN (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fda2c624d104aeab131465eb1293d28\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257a880a95d3d4fb9bca6b199ed2a0374\u0022\u003EHon KIRITAPU ALLAN\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Justice Committee to consider the bill. At the appropriate time, I intend to move that the bill be reported to the House by 9 February 2023. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EOur civil forfeiture regime set out in the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Act 2009 is among the best in the world. The inter-governmental Financial Action Task Force rated New Zealand as one of only five countries having a high level of effectiveness at confiscating proceeds of crime. However, organised crime and transnational offending will always seek new ways to evade law enforcement. This is why I am pleased, this evening, to recommend the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Amendment Bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EThis bill will improve the success and efficiency of our laws at restraining and forfeiting property derived from significant criminal activity. This will reduce the ability of criminals to continue or expand criminal enterprise and help to deter profit-driven criminal conduct. The four amendments will contribute to achieving New Zealand\u2019s transnational organised crime strategy for responding to local, national, and transnational organised crime. These will also complement our reforms in the Criminal Activity Intervention Legislation Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to start with the new restraining and forfeiture orders. These are designed to respond to the particular difficulties that arise in going after the leaders and facilitators of organised crime. Under the current law, police must satisfy the court that either a person\u2019s assets were derived from significant criminal activity or that the person knew they were profiting from significant criminal activity. However, organised criminal groups will deliberately structure their activities so that the leaders and facilitators avoid involvement in or knowledge of the specific offending, even as they benefit from a portion of the profits. For example, in one case involving approximately $10 million worth of property, police relied on evidence from 16 different police operations over nearly 20 years. The investigation could not identify a legitimate source for this wealth, with the owner alleged to have received a portion of the proceeds from criminal activity undertaken by other people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EThe new asset forfeiture orders will allow a court to restrain or forfeit property if satisfied to the required standard that, first, the respondent has interest in, or control over, specific property; and, second, the respondent is associated with an organised criminal group whose members or participants have been involved in or unlawfully benefited from significant criminal activity; and, third, the respondent\u2019s legitimate property would have been insufficient to acquire that specific property; and, fourth, the value of the specific property not explained by the respondent\u2019s legitimate property is at least $30,000. The\u00A0burden of proof will be on the police to prove these criteria to the standard of reasonable belief to believe, for a restraining order, or, on the balance of probabilities for a forfeiture order. If police prove these criteria to the required standard, the court must presume the property is tainted. The respondent will have the opportunity to rebut this presumption by proving, on the balance of probabilities, the specific property in the application was not derived from significant criminal activity. In addition, the court will have the discretion to decline to make a forfeiture order if it would not be in the interests of justice to do so. These provisions protect respondents against unjust seizure. This new type of asset forfeiture order will improve the Act\u2019s effectiveness in disrupting organised crime. It will enable police to intervene to prevent illicit profits being reinvested in crime or used to recruit prospective members. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003ENext, I\u2019ll speak to the new disclosure of source orders. These respond to difficulties arising from obtaining information from persons overseas. Police are already able to restrain assets that are in New Zealand and likely to have been derived from offshore offending, such as illicit drug trafficking and international money laundering. For example, police cases have identified criminal proceeds invested in our real estate markets and our financial sector. However, if the owner of the property is overseas, this can impede forfeiture. Domestic respondents are subject to production and examination orders. It is an offence to fail to comply with these orders, which require the production of documents or examination to answer questions. But these are not enforceable against residents where outside of New Zealand, and it is not always possible to obtain the information required for forfeiture from foreign jurisdictions. This new disclosure of source order will require the respondent to provide information on the source of a restrained property within two months. If they fail to respond, or file a materially false or misleading disclosure, the court can presume that the property is tainted. The respondent would still have the opportunity to rebut this presumption at a forfeiture hearing. This new tool will allow more investigations to be pursued and will deter further offending. This will help to protect New Zealand\u2019s reputation as a safe, secure, and high-integrity jurisdiction against efforts to launder illicit funds here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EThe third amendment fixes a technical gap in the Official Assignee\u2019s authority to temporarily hold property seized under a warrant. Currently, property must be returned after 28 days unless subject to a restraining order, or until the determination of an application for forfeiture. This leaves a gap in cases where an application for a restraining order has been made but the courts do not make a determination until after the 28-day period. This amendment allows seized property to be retained until the determination of any restraining order. This also avoids police having to return and then re-seize property, with the risk that the respondent uses the opportunity to dispose of the assets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EFinally and briefly, this bill will allow funds in KiwiSaver to be forfeited where they have shown under the Act to be the proceeds of crime. Currently, section 127 of the KiwiSaver Act 2006 provides a general prohibition on KiwiSaver funds being passed to another person unless an enactment expressly provides otherwise. This presents any funds in KiwiSaver from being forfeited until withdrawn from the scheme. This could enable criminals to abuse the KiwiSaver scheme by hiding the proceeds of their crimes in their KiwiSaver. This change will allow funds in the KiwiSaver schemes to be subject to civil forfeiture orders. It will put KiwiSaver in an equivalent position to other retirement schemes, such as bank accounts and managed funds, which do not have a prohibition preventing forfeiture. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EThese amendments have been carefully designed. They strike a balance between upholding the rule of law in terms of the effectiveness at seizing illicit assets, and safeguarding human rights to a fair hearing and freedom from unreasonable seizure. The new powers will only be available where their respective evidential standards are met, and where there is a presumption in favour of forfeiture. Police must have first satisfied the courts of the relevant criteria. The court can decline a presumption if they consider it would not be in the interests of justice, and respondents will have the opportunity to rebut a presumption. At the same time, they fulfil the Labour Party\u2019s 2020 election manifesto commitment to ensure police have the resources and powers to disrupt criminal activity and seize proceeds of crime. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002209de7ddfa4c84fb4a18fb7551cdd13b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002209de7ddfa4c84fb4a18fb7551cdd13b6\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u002271511461885b49a5a0835f0f5192ff38\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271511461885b49a5a0835f0f5192ff38\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker, and the National Party will be supporting this bill, the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Amendment Bill, to the select committee. We support any efforts to strip gangs and other organised criminal gatherings or groups of their ill-gotten gains.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EIt was funny to hear the Minister referring to the manifesto, because this was legislation that was first announced, with great fanfare, back in May 2021\u2014more than a year ago\u2014and was supposed to be delivered before the end of the year. But it turned out that the previous Minister of Justice had checked out and didn\u2019t seem to be too interested in it. Then suddenly this year\u2014in the context of a breakdown of law and order in many of our cities and a sense of chaos, a massive increase in gang membership, ram raiders and smash-and-grabbers all through our cities in Auckland and Hamilton over the weekend, and a sense of the Government not being in control of the law and order situation in this country and in our cities\u2014the Government has suddenly moved fast after its slumber to actually get on with this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe problem is, of course, it does have a sense of being slightly rushed, and I turn to the impact summary, and the officials say, \u201COh dear, well, the analysis that we looked at on this bill has been constrained by a lack of consultation. The time frames in which the policy proposals have been prepared did not allow for a consultation beyond Government agencies affected. So we didn\u2019t talk to the stakeholders, and so we don\u2019t really know too much about this.\u201D Then there was the lack of opportunity for further analysis. \u201CWith more opportunity for further analysis of the operation of the existing profit forfeiture orders, justice might have been able to develop alternative options for the organised crime proposal.\u201D That, I thought, was a reasonably snide set of comments from officials, pointing out the fact that, if only they\u2019d had a bit of time to actually work out what this proposal was and how it fitted with the current arrangements and how it was going to improve things, they might have done some research. What is strange to understand is why, if this was a commitment by Labour, they hadn\u2019t got the officials on to it earlier and got themselves organised to come up with a well-designed and well-organised piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ENow, we hope that this basis, this legislation, will do some good. It does ultimately reverse the onus of proof for people with large property which is either tainted or which has been owned by or held by a person that is associated with a member of an organised crime group and, as well, that can\u2019t show how they obtained that property legitimately. So that does give the police extra powers to hunt down and collect these properties in order to seize them\u2014restrain them first; and then seize them, secondly\u2014and return that money to the people of New Zealand so that they can more effectively prosecute other people and send a clear message that crime doesn\u2019t pay. So it may well work, and time will tell.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EBut it\u2019s interesting to see that Crown Law had a look at this in relation to the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act and did notice that the legislation does impact upon freedom of association, although it\u2019s not clear just what an \u201Cassociate\u201D means. We\u2019ve seen that Cabinet has made some subsequent changes and tightened up the definition of \u201Cassociate\u201D, so it doesn\u2019t mean a mere acquaintance, and that seems about right. But just how wide the net for associates is, is a moot point, and we\u2019re very much looking forward to the select committee process in order to better understand that. Then, if they are an associate, the second thing was\u2014which was a rather strange piece of advice from Crown Law. They then argued about the threshold, and the Crown Law people said, \u201CWell, if the threshold was $50,000 or $30,000, that might be all right, because it would indicate that there\u2019s been some serious criminal activity. But if it was lower\u2014if it was $10,000\u2014then maybe it wasn\u2019t sufficiently serious in order to justify the breach to the freedom of association rules.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThat was interesting. We understand that there was a big fight within Cabinet and the Cabinet committees about this threshold level, because the slight problem we have is that we\u2019re going to be tough on the gangs, we\u2019re going to sort them out\u2014so the Government says, belatedly, after a long period of time\u2014we\u2019re going to show them who\u2019s boss, but when it comes to the many Harley-Davidsons and other bikes that are roaring up and down our streets and terrorising neighbourhoods, and great swarms going down the motorway and making people nervous, because it\u2019s all designed to intimidate, when it comes to those Harley-Davidsons, most of them are probably just a little bit under that $30,000 threshold. And so people are left wondering, \u201CWell, what does this bill mean?\u201D Are any of the Harley-Davidsons going to be collected? Is any of the bling that people associate with these gang members who are out there threatening and intimidating actually going to be taken?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s not clear, and it shows, to my mind, just another example of the kind of mixed messages that we get from the Government. They want to be seen to be tough, but they\u2019re not really sure that they actually want to be. They want to do lots of drug rehabilitation programmes and things with gang members, but they also want to look like they\u2019re being tough on them, and so people are confused. There\u2019s not a clear message coming through from this Government around what the relationship is with gangs, which have increased very significantly\u2014about 40 percent in the last few years\u2014under this Government. So the gangs are recruiting faster than the police, and that\u2019s part of the reason why New Zealanders are not feeling safe in their communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EI mean, what are the issues that people raise with you when you\u2019re on the streets in Auckland? Well, first, they\u2019re worried about the cost of living crisis, and they\u2019re worried about how they\u2019re going to pay for their cheese and all the other things like that. But, secondly, they\u2019re worried about the breakdown in law and order in our cities. They\u2019re worried about that, and they\u2019re concerned about it. If they\u2019ve got kids working in retail in St Lukes Mall or in Newmarket Mall or anything like that, they\u2019re worried about that. They\u2019re worried about whether they might be going to encounter another smash-and-grab or a hit and run or a ram raid or all the things that seem to be going on where people face no consequences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo we on this side of the House are prepared to support this piece of legislation at its first reading. We want to hear the select committee reports on it. We want to hear from people in the community about how this works, because we, broadly speaking, agree with any effort to make it tougher on gangs and to strip them of their ill-gotten gains. But we do have questions about it. We also make the point that it\u2019s got to be part of a clear, consistent, and forceful response to gangs in our country. What we haven\u2019t seen from this Government is a clear, consistent, and forceful response to gangs. What we see is not much for five years, then a panic and a few things thrown out, some weak firearm protection orders. Now we\u2019ve got this bill around gangs; we\u2019ve got another one that was announced at the same time\u2014clearly in relation to a sense that they were well behind the eight ball on this issue, and they want to be seen to be making better progress. We support them in that; they do need to make better progress, because the most important thing for all New Zealanders is that they feel safe in their communities and in their homes and in their shopping malls and in their streets and they\u2019re not feeling intimidated. And so we do need to be much more rigorous in pushing back. So that\u2019s why we\u2019re interested to see that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re puzzled a bit by the KiwiSaver. I\u2019m not too sure that too many gang members are greatly focused on their KiwiSaver accounts, but, you know, there is an issue there, and they\u2019ve just kind of thrown this into the mix. We wouldn\u2019t want KiwiSaver funds to be some kind of safe haven for criminals to put their funds. And so, yes, we agree with looking at that, but we do make the point that, when you\u2019re scrambling around to be seen to be doing something on law and order, actually the fundamental things that the Government needs to be focusing on is making sure that there is a very clear and consistent message from Government that society doesn\u2019t tolerate these sorts of things and there are consequences for illegal behaviour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s what people are worried about. This is what people are frustrated by, particularly with the youth offenders, when they see all this stuff going on. The most consistent feedback or concern that you hear is, \u201CWell, there\u2019s just no consequences for these kids. They go off, they do it, and they wind up having a family conference. They get patted on the head and \u2018We\u2019ll see you again next weekend.\u2019 \u201D There are no consequences, and that message has filtered through and is what is underlying the sense of chaos and disorder that we have at the moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESimilarly with gangs, there are a few more consequences for gangs, but what has happened is that there hasn\u2019t been that consistent, clear message from Government. It\u2019s been mixed: \u201CWe\u2019ll give a million or so to gang associates down in Hawke\u2019s Bay to do some drug rehabilitation. We\u2019ll do some other stuff. We\u2019ll do this, and we\u2019ll go and meet with them. The Ministers will meet with them. We\u2019ll talk with them. We\u2019ll do all sorts of other stuff.\u201D And then, of all the things that the justice Minister\u2014the previous justice Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00226a889c0bccc44f968ee7d7831c582293\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a889c0bccc44f968ee7d7831c582293\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member\u2019s time has come to an end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022d1f08b7985604bbc90e1802e3b0bf90c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d1f08b7985604bbc90e1802e3b0bf90c\u0022\u003EGINNY ANDERSEN (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E \u4F60\u597D\u3002Thank you, Mr Speaker. Often in this House, we talk about those on the front line and give thanks to those police officers who are on the front line, but I\u2019d also like to give a few moments tonight to give thanks to our detective inspectors. This is a bill dedicated to those hard-working men and women\u2014those hard-working men and women who work with people alongside Greg Williams, who worked for hours and hours to follow the money. And that\u2019s what this bill will enable our police officers to do even better than what they have done already, and that is to follow the money. This bill will flip the onus and enable our detective inspectors and forensic accountants to be able to dismantle criminal networks far better than they have ever done previously. I think it\u2019s important that we highlight the history of this bill and the genesis of where this started. It was first highlighted in the National Party\u2019s action plan on tackling gangs. I believe, if you look on the internet, you\u2019ll find it in a Cabinet paper written for Anne Tolley back in 2014. The National Party talked and wrote and confirmed in Cabinet that they would like to go for the money back those many years ago and they failed to deliver.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo I challenge\u2014I challenge\u2014because if we are talking about being tough on crime, if we are talking about actually delivering\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224a28dd24fd44e25828b0439b373a834\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re soft on crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228aceb6554da74bfe9ddafcf440ae2281\u0022\u003EGINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014for dismantling criminal networks in New Zealand, then this is the bill that will actually do that. This is the bill that, alongside additional police officers on our front line being able to undertake a detailed response for our youth, is the type of response that New Zealand has needed for a long time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo how this will change what\u2019s done currently\u2014and it\u2019s important to highlight that, particularly for those members opposite who don\u2019t have a long history of memory; maybe Mr Mitchell may. Under the current law, police must satisfy the court that either a person\u2019s assets were derived from a significant criminal activity or the person knew. So they had to know about it\u2014mens rea\u2014and know that they were profiting from significant criminal activity. However, we know that organised criminal networks will deliberately structure their activities so the leaders and facilitators of that involvement have no knowledge of that specific offending. That\u2019s what prevents prosecutions and the seizing of assets in this space. And that is what this bill will turn around. So I\u2019m looking forward to the speakers that come after this and explain to me why, in 2014, the National Party agreed on it in Cabinet and then for the subsequent years failed to deliver in this space. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo what will also happen with this bill is that a new court order will mean that criminals based overseas who had their assets in New Zealand will face losing those assets unless they can prove within two months that they obtained that property legally. So if there is no overt way of showing that you are able to get the gold-plated Harley, then the onus flips for you to prove how you got that, and that is a significant change. I really hope this will enable those detective inspectors in New Zealand that do hard work in this space to do their job even better than what they do already. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThis bill, in addition to what we\u2019re doing with firearms prohibition orders, with our front-line services being more equipped in terms of police numbers, specific and dedicated operations on that front line, is one of the underlying frameworks that will really enable police to do that good work, that underlying detective work to identify where these networks are operated and how they can dismantle them in the long term. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI\u2019m really proud to be part of a Government that is delivering on this. I\u2019m proud to be part of a Government that is playing the smart game\u2014the smart game\u2014not the one-hit wonders, not the window dressing, not the look good to make you score a couple of political points; this is the long-term significant change that that side promised and never delivered upon, and this side will put to rest. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u00229bee3e5c7a3b4096b84fec0acd82f64a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229bee3e5c7a3b4096b84fec0acd82f64a\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Whangapar\u0101oa):\u003C/span\u003E Where do I start on that contribution? So let\u2019s start with: it\u2019s good to see that the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Amendment Bill first reading\u2019s in the House. We agree to support it to select committee. Obviously, we are going to interrogate it fairly tough\u2014we\u2019re going to be tough with it in select committee. I\u2019ll tell you why: because like all the other legislation this party is bringing to this House in a knee-jerk reaction, trying to respond to the worst levels of crime that we\u2019ve ever seen in our country. By the way, we\u2019ve never seen carjackings in New Zealand before. We\u2019ve had five of them yet. Yeah, never. The Labour member at the back row there says \u201CNever.\u201D, well, go and have a look at the history and see whether or not in this country we\u2019ve had carjackings\u2014that is, people ripped out of their cars, held up by knifepoint, and having their car stolen or robbed, maybe even kidnapped and taken to an ATM and subjected to intimidation, violence, or assault. We haven\u2019t witnessed that level of violence or that level of crime in this country before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EIt hasn\u2019t happened overnight; it\u2019s percolated away for the last four or five years under a soft-on-crime Labour Government. We signalled to this Government four years ago when we came out with our law and order policy paper, and we said to them, \u201CYou have to get serious about the rising gang numbers, how organised they are, the new global networks that have been introduced with the advent of 501s, the new level of violence that they\u2019re bringing to their daily activities, the fact that they\u2019re willing to carry firearms, and that needs a really tough response.\u201D\u2014we said\u2014\u201CYou\u2019re going to have to stand up a dedicated gang task force.\u201D They resisted that. They mocked it. They laughed at it. They ignored it. So fast forward five years, where are we today? We\u2019ve got a Labour Government that\u2019s scrambling to try and respond to a huge growth in gang numbers, like the Hon Paul Goldsmith said, \u201CThey\u2019re recruiting quicker than our police are able to recruit, train, and deploy new staff.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EEvery piece of legislation that they bring to this House, mark my word, is messing round on the fringes. It\u2019s not meaningful. Their firearms prohibition order: no new search powers. Both ourselves and the Police Association were very clear about the fact, unless you put an additional search power in this bill, it\u2019s meaningless. There is nothing new about it. It\u2019s messing round on the fringes. Let me come back to this House in six months, because I\u2019m going to be watching.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ce55ea7759240418f174d322bfec1a9\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s just window dressing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216010feef11245ba86a4ed921c5e8357\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to be\u2014it\u2019s window dressing\u2014watching and I am going to be tracking this just to see how effective this legislation this Government is passing is. The previous speaker: I acknowledge her experience and her past in the police service as well, and the contribution that she made. She does speak with some experience and authority on that, and I acknowledge that. But she knows as well as I do that the legislation that they\u2019re bringing to this House that they\u2019re passing is meaningless. She talks about our detective inspectors, I\u2019m glad she did. Can I acknowledge our own detective inspector in my area John Sutton, one of the most experienced detective inspectors that we have in the country. He\u2019s got a fairly good feel in terms of what\u2019s happening in his patch\u2014and, by the way, first time ever we had an offender get out in to the public in Rothesay Bay and Mairangi Bay with a knife and start randomly stabbing people in the middle of the day; something that that community has never experienced before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve got the Hell\u2019s Angels that have bought commercial property in Silverdale. The first time ever\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d953454dd084713b97aa894b2bdfd31\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Proceeds of crime? Anything about proceeds of crime today, Mr Mitchell?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d8eb6e7d8274f7da9f335681a9a7c6a\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b82b4b8245843249ce9337eb912e575\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Are you going to talk about proceeds of crime today, Mr Mitchell?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9bb5b6d77c8448a94ad9bb6cdb1f8d3\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s for the Speaker to decide on\u2014that\u2019s for the Speaker to decide on; not for you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a97422ae2cc42589a9e18acd37b2f37\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Just curious.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9f01efc90c44ed69cf539458f2efcc2\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I know that you\u2019d like me to move on. I know that it\u2019s a bit inconvenient for you to hear the truth, and you\u2019d like me to move on. But, actually, that\u2019s for the Speaker to decide on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ESo we are talking about the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Amendment Bill, and I\u2019m just coming to that point right now. We had the Hell\u2019s Angels come into my own electorate and buy commercial property in Silverdale. And as hard as the local police have worked with real estate agents, with other agencies inside my own patch, with regular quarterly meetings to try and block gangs from coming in, they still managed to get in. We had the Comancheros that tried to buy property in Omaha and Warkworth. We\u2019ve had the Mongols that have got a presence down Silverdale as well. But the reality is this, if they\u2019d actually had a proper bill, a proper bill with teeth, around criminal proceeds and recovery, then, actually, maybe they might\u2019ve been able to block or maybe they might\u2019ve been able to seize that commercial property that the Hell\u2019s Angels have now set up in my patch. Maybe they could\u2019ve done that. In fact, the feedback that I had from my own police area commander, Mark Fergus, is that had they had legislation like that, then they probably could\u2019ve prevented them or they could have seized the asset. Well, you know, he laughs and he sort of sniggers, just like they were laughing today; just like the whole Labour caucus were laughing today when we\u2019re talking about serious issues around people\u2019s safety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217d219bd69b5448ab26821e19e1bd640\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: They don\u2019t care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f89b9c931107448881a3f0a24d2f4650\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: They don\u2019t care. They think it\u2019s funny. They think it\u2019s a joke. Stand and take a call. If you think what I\u2019m saying is not right, stand and take your call. Challenge it. I\u2019m up for that. That\u2019s what we\u2019re here for, is to debate the issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229e6925e16744eb8b410dc9445acbbd3\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re just here to give money to the Mongrel Mob.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224dc6ee29f3c84526bb55d17b3b0f7715\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d like to know, talking about that\u2014yeah, well, absolutely. I mean, the fact of the matter is, we put up four very good policies that had they actually just decided to take a bipartisan approach and actually just take public safety seriously, they might\u2019ve actually looked at those policies, they might\u2019ve looked overseas and seen that the Western Australians are using them, and they\u2019re effective. They\u2019re using them right now. The firearms prohibition order, that doesn\u2019t even come into effect until November. It\u2019s not even out there to be used. It\u2019s ridiculous. These guys are a joke. They\u2019re an absolute joke, knee-jerk reaction. They\u2019re trying to respond now. They\u2019ve allowed this situation to grow over five years. That\u2019s baked in, and it\u2019s entrenched. It\u2019s going to be hard to turn around.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022287d55073e1d4f2e94a893fa3d836df2\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Mitchell, it\u2019s been six minutes. Can we just spend three minutes on the bill, please?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a70727efab24f7a85a4363940027938\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m happy to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287dbc20d1fb04f0394f1f3b07d18dd41\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve had a pretty good run. It\u2019s three minutes on the bill, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b8d5a7161ad4e3d861df32944f8b01c\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m happy to do that, Mr Speaker. But the only point that I\u2019d make is this: I\u2019m responding to issues that the other speaker also raised during her contribution that didn\u2019t relate to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EActually the Hon Paul Goldsmith raised a very good point: this bill has been brought to the House in such a rush that the officials haven\u2019t even had the chance to go out and do proper consultation with stakeholders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224a77d250a88462bb0bc9f2bc3e15a39\u0022\u003EGinny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: In 2014.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ef3102c70cd42a8a5afa93ef945c21c\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: They haven\u2019t been up\u2014are you disputing the regulatory impact statement that says the officials haven\u2019t had time to go out and consult with stakeholders? So this isn\u2019t a piece of work that\u2019s been in train since last year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ce2217cfe2948ceb8420dbe019d320a\u0022\u003EGinny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Why didn\u2019t you pass it then?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022673314ed9f53458099ba1d95dfa8f3d4\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Pardon?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ed545a8fa954d3fa62f10e505f776ed\u0022\u003EGinny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Why didn\u2019t you pass it in 2014?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ea1176e300a4612873a813e95afaa7f\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, why didn\u2019t we pass it in 2014?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022048dd867a4c24721b0ce48627cca52e0\u0022\u003EGinny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0e32eab8180457aa9f2cc793d21a59f\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s a bit hard for me to answer that. I wasn\u2019t in Cabinet in 2014. But I will tell you this, New Zealand was a much safer place in 2014. New Zealand wasn\u2019t facing ram raids. New Zealand wasn\u2019t facing carjackings. New Zealand wasn\u2019t facing daylight aggravated robberies with multiple offenders with weapons. So the climate today in New Zealand is far more dangerous than it was in 2014. I\u2019m sure the member would love to rewind the clock. I\u2019m sure she enjoyed living in New Zealand back in 2014. It was a much safer country. It\u2019s a dangerous country now, and it\u2019s sad.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279d076fe76b945c4a7988e64108ce322\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Two minutes on the bill, please, Mr Mitchell.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209aab3ca9f914a3cb8614b2c2672ccd7\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019ve got a really important question on this bill. Who\u2019s going to be deemed an associate? Who\u2019s going to be deemed an associate? So I\u2019d like a member of the Government to stand and explain to us who\u2019s going to be deemed an associate, because if they had any understanding in terms of how gangs work, they do intimidate people. They probably do transfer some assets over to them. Often those people are victims themselves. The Minister struggled to explain the difference between an associate and an acquaintance. What is an acquaintance? What is an associate? So I think this is fundamentally a very important\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4fe013ef7e2491faf792c1146973123\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: What about their accountant?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ecbd86303ad44a1bcb4416ec43b5a7e\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: What about their?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220283e04e2a24996a2612e4b189139a6\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Accountant. What about their lawyer? Are they associates?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237ef001f040544bd965bf28fd5ff5e90\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah. Their lawyer or their accountant, that\u2019s a very good question from the Hon Judith Collins. Is their accountant or their lawyer or any legal expert or any person giving advice, are they deemed an associate, and are they captured by this bill, or are they an acquaintance? We don\u2019t know. So I would ask that whoever takes a call from the Government side would take some of their 10 minutes and explain to us how that\u2019s going to work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThe final point is this: why did the police Minister not get the $10,000 threshold across the line? That\u2019s what the police asked for, and he couldn\u2019t deliver it. And do you know why he couldn\u2019t deliver it? Because he was overridden by the justice Minister. So they\u2019re trying to be tough on crime. The chair of the committee got up and said, \u201CHey, this is our response. We\u2019re being tough on crime. This is what we\u2019re doing.\u201D The police made a very strong recommendation to the police Minister. He couldn\u2019t even get that across the line. The justice Minister overrode it, and she got up in the House and said the Prime Minister supported that as well. So I don\u2019t think you can stand in this House and give us a tough-on-crime speech. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022 data-id=\u0022e25ec84550354a6090f157dad8de8a56\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e25ec84550354a6090f157dad8de8a56\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E \u5927\u5BB6\u597D, and \u4F60\u597D, Mr Speaker. My goodness. They talk a big game about law and order on that side of the House when in Opposition, but when they\u2019re in Government they fail to deliver. They couldn\u2019t deliver a firearms prohibition order scheme in nine years, despite multiple attempts, and we did. This is a Government committed to putting the most police on the streets to ensure community safety. This is a Government committed to addressing organised crime. It is a priority for us and tonight we introduced two bills in the House to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re taking significant steps, through this bill, to provide police with the powers they need and the additional tools to seize the illicit assets of organised crime. We know that organised criminal groups are attempting to structure their affairs to avoid restraint and forfeiture of tainted property under existing section 24 of the legislation. So we know that additional powers are needed here and we have stretched into a very new space by extending those powers to associated people. It is a hugely significant step and, actually, it\u2019s quite an invasive technique, which shows the seriousness with which we\u2019re taking this issue. Our law does require us to put parameters of reasonableness around those powers as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EMr Goldsmith referenced the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. He then failed to step through the tests that you are required to do when you\u2019re making legal changes like this. If there\u2019s an incursion into a right, you need a justification for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209aaab7c9025451ba4e37ff32d3e691c\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Who\u2019s an \u201Cassociate\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219d12ae789dc45adace6259143d792d6\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS\u003C/span\u003E: The greater the incursion, the greater the justification you need, which is why there\u2019s a difference of treatment between gang members\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228528761d3a7d412f91647d1280accbdf\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: No answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1edb3d0ea06440eb30fbe1152f450b5\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and associates. You asked about the definition. The definition is in new section 5A, inserted by clause 5 of the bill, but that is entirely why we are going to select committee, so that we can examine that definition again, Mr Mitchell. It\u2019s new section 5A, if you\u2019d like to go and read that, and, I very much look forward to engaging with you, as well as all the submitters who will be coming to select committee. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022 data-id=\u0022be40d8d7fb3743319556ad627b1fd10e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be40d8d7fb3743319556ad627b1fd10e\u0022\u003EGOLRIZ GHAHRAMAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. What can we say about the rhetoric around crime that\u2019s been flaring up in this House and in the media, flaring up because of the political rhetoric that we see thrown around here, not just by the Opposition\u2014though, of course, flamed by the Opposition, begun by the Opposition\u2014but the heartbreak it is when we see the Government pander to the Opposition\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e67fc8e4423f4ba9a297b1941dc14c16\u0022\u003EMatt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: You are the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022374679c22cc9464a8c4d0264a29242c7\u0022\u003EGOLRIZ GHAHRAMAN\u003C/span\u003E: Should I explain \u201CParliament\u201D versus \u201CGovernment\u201D to that member? Is he quite new? Anyway, I won\u2019t explain\u2014I won\u2019t explain to that member what it is to be a member of the House of Representatives versus the Government. He\u2019ll learn on the job. But what I will explain\u2014because I am the only member of this House who has served for more than a decade at the front lines of our criminal justice system, in the courts, in the prisons, applying the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act against the tyranny that would ensue if we had police decide who goes away, whose property we take, who is and isn\u2019t guilty, without a proper application of the onus or the standard of proof\u2014I can say that this bill does, in fact, reverse those standards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EThe issue of proceeds of crimes was something that was legislated for under the last National Party Government. So what we saw, and what we have seen until now, is that if you\u2019re charged with a crime\u2014the standard being that the crime has to be proved against you by the prosecution, who bear the onus from the beginning of the proceedings, to a standard of \u201Cbeyond reasonable doubt\u201D; that\u2019s for the crime you\u2019ve been charged with\u2014police can bring separate proceedings and take your property before the crime has been proved, to a standard of \u201Cbalance of probabilities\u201D only. So you can go on and have your conviction dropped, you can go on and be found not guilty, but the property proceedings are separate. This bill lowers that standard still. So we\u2019re not talking about a crime; we\u2019re talking about an association with people that we generally don\u2019t like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve got the word \u201Ctainted\u201D used with no legal standard or precedent. Who do we know is likely to be seen as being tainted, by the police force? Well, the Government had two separate, independent studies\u2014inquires\u2014last term into our criminal justice system, both finding overwhelmingly that there were constituencies out there in New Zealand that we\u2019re more likely to see charged with crime. So this Act, when it talks about association, when it talks about tainted property, we know, based on evidence, will be applied to certain groups of people, because we\u2019re taking away the standard of proof, we\u2019re taking away the right to a defence in lots of ways, we\u2019re taking away the onus of the prosecution and that standard of \u201Cbeyond reasonable doubt\u201D, even the balance of probabilities. So who will it apply to? It will be M\u0101ori, it will be the poor, it will be other black and brown communities, it will be people with mental illness\u2014the people that we don\u2019t see as fit to hold property or to have a whole lot of rights. We\u2019re saying the police decides, not based on an allegation of crime at all but on some kind of tainting. That is prejudice. It\u2019s not good lawmaking. It won\u2019t save our communities from harm. It won\u2019t keep anyone safe, because there\u2019s no evidence the person was a threat at all. That is shameful. It\u2019s not about keeping communities safe when we get into lawmaking like this; it\u2019s about making politicians look tough. That\u2019s not what we should be here for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EWe know already what keeps communities safe. We know already what prevents crime. Violence is wrong and bad, and people are scared\u2014yes\u2014but we\u2019re talking about property crimes committed through violence. We know that\u2014I was going to say \u201Cthe average\u201D, but it\u2019s actually 89 percent\u201489 percent of under-19-year-olds that come into our criminal justice system are then diagnosed with a serious learning disability. So dropping out of school, a lack of inclusive education, is actually a criminal justice response that we\u2019re failing at, that we are not doing, and instead we\u2019re doing this. That is shameful. Investing in mental health care is a criminal justice response. Investing in stable, secure housing is a criminal justice response. Livable incomes\u2014that is a criminal justice response that would show courage, and it would show us referring back to the evidence of what keeps communities safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s what we are here for. We are here to respond to the evidence of what keeps communities safe, of what keeps our communities thriving, including our young people, and youth justice has the most evidence behind it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260e0c5467f7d4bf69973e7966facacd8\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Ms Ghahraman\u2014six minutes now. The bill, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3c67fe6ae91465caa6b5823b45d441a\u0022\u003EGOLRIZ GHAHRAMAN\u003C/span\u003E: The bill takes away the onus and standard of proof when it comes to crimes committed by gangs\u2014this mythical word that we\u2019ve made up. It creates a new standard without due process, without the standards that we normally apply when we decide to remove someone or their property from society in order to keep communities safe. So it will not keep communities safe, but it will make a couple of politicians look tough on crime. That is callous lawmaking. I don\u2019t commend it to the House. The Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand does not commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u0022baec634a612d41f7aee76fa225959252\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022baec634a612d41f7aee76fa225959252\u0022\u003ENICOLE McKEE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I stand on behalf of the ACT Party in support of this Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Amendment Bill through its first reading and to select committee stage. We support this in the first instance, but we do have a few questions about it. The first one, of course, is: why did it take so long? In May 2021, it was first announced that this bill was a-comin\u2019. That was 16 months ago. Now that it\u2019s landed, the regulatory impact statement has only just been made available. In fact, I\u2019ve just been able to pick it up off the Table there. And in actual fact, if you go on to the Parliament website, the bill is still not available for reading. So 16 months. I have to ask: what has been happening? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThe disclosure statement and the regulatory impact statement indicate that while M\u0101ori have been identified as those that are going to be disproportionately affected by this legislation, no one has consulted with them. It\u2019s all been in-house Government agency analysis instead. And why is that? Because the time frames did not allow for consultation outside of those Government agencies. Sixteen months\u201416 months ago, we were told that this was on its way, and yet there wasn\u2019t enough time for the appropriate consultation, including not enough time for the officials to look at any alternative options to put forward as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThis Government had introduced firearm prohibition orders earlier this year, which we supported, in its efforts to prevent the illegal possession of firearms. But this bill is a failure when it comes to addressing the financial consequences for that illegal possession of firearms. In September 2021, when my bill was drawn\u2014also a criminal proceeds recovery bill\u2014it was to raise the threshold to be able to freeze and seize assets upon finding an illegally held firearm. Government told the public that they would sort it out, and they think they\u2019ve done this with the firearms prohibition orders. But what I\u2019d like to say is that when gun crime is going up in our communities by 47 percent, making sure that there is a consequence to that illegal position should also be mandated\u2014and can be\u2014within this legislation. Auckland homes especially are becoming riddled with gunshot wounds, and we can do a lot more in that space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EWhat do police find when they do raid an organised criminal facility? They tell us all the time; it\u2019s cash, it\u2019s drugs, and it\u2019s firearms. Instead of supporting a bill that gave consequence to illegal possession, the Government ignored it. You had a chance then, and you have another one now, and I look forward to be able to raise this issue at select committee to see if we can improve the bill and, therefore, the safety of, and to, our communities from illegal gun crime. Consequences have been missing from Labour\u2019s attempt at crime control, and the gangs have taken full advantage of it. But this is a step in the right direction, and we do acknowledge what the Government is trying to achieve, because to truly hit the gangs where it hurts\u2014which is in their pockets\u2014is to delve into the areas where police can apply to the courts to force civil asset seizure from those profiting from criminal activity and those that use the ill-gotten gains as well\u2014this includes being able to break into people\u2019s KiwiSaver accounts and seize funds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EACT understands and supports, on the face of it, the reasoning behind this. People topping up their KiwiSaver and knowing that it cannot be touched is the reason why. But I\u2019d like to go through the select committee process to flesh this out a little bit more just to ensure that it\u2019s only the ill-gotten gains that become confiscated and not actual hard-earned savings. I do note that my colleagues from the National Party talked about gang members possibly not having KiwiSaver accounts, and I do agree that that\u2019s probably the situation. But there are others that can be brought into this regime, and I would like to ensure that their legitimate savings are kept safe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThis bill also allows the High Court to make a disclosure of source order for those that reside overseas with property here in New Zealand\u2014property thought to be tainted property or derived from significant criminal activity. It means that they\u2019ll have up to two months to provide information as to how the property was acquired or risk losing it. This is an interesting concept that we\u2019re looking forward to hearing more about from officials at the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EAnd this bill also introduces type 1 and type 2 asset forfeitures. Type 1 is a standard forfeiture where the thresholds have been met and the forfeiture is whole. Type 2 is where an associate of a criminal organised group has property they cannot explain. In that case, a restraining order can be made if the respondent was an associate of an organised criminal group when they acquired that property; if they have been involved in, or benefited from, significant criminal activity at any time; if police can show the respondent could not have afforded the property before they acquired it; and if the market value of seized assets meets the $30,000 threshold. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EAnd this is where I believe the KiwiSaver clause has relevance, as the $30,000 threshold does not need to be met here in an entirety. A value of it is added to the $30k threshold. However, I would like clarity on that when we get to the select committee process. I also note concerns raised by those that will be affected by this legislation, including gang members who are concerned that their family members and friends could be inadvertently caught up in this legislation. My message to them: stop involving your family and your friends in your criminal activities, and they won\u2019t have anything to worry about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThe reality is that crime in New Zealand is becoming more vicious, more violent, and definitely serious with complete disregard to our communities. A 47 percent increase in gun crime alone means the ability to apply to freeze and then seize assets, based on that illegal position, should be considered as a way to beef up this bill and give it extra teeth. A harder approach is well overdue and needed. We look forward to this bill going to select committee and hearing from the submitters. These changes to legislation will have the potential to have quite an effect on organised crime and where its proceeds end up. We welcome these conversations and support this bill through to its first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022 data-id=\u00229ac3f85bc4b14c5c8903739bfba1fd37\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ac3f85bc4b14c5c8903739bfba1fd37\u0022\u003EDr EMILY HENDERSON (Labour\u2014Whang\u0101rei):\u003C/span\u003E \u8C22\u8C22, Mr Speaker. As I rise to support this bill, I\u2019ve been listening to my colleagues across the divide and I was very taken by Mr Mitchell\u2019s concerns about the timeliness of our actions in this, and also with his quite remarkable assertion\u2014as an ex-prosecutor myself\u2014that carjacking is a new crime in New Zealand. So I was thinking about these matters, carjacking and this bill and the timeliness thereof. So I did a little bit of googling, and oh my goodness, I came across this headline: \u201CCarjacking on the Rise in New Zealand\u201D, the Sensible Sentencing Trust was in up in arms. The problem, however, is this particular moment is from 2014. It refers to a woman and child carjacked by armed men. And 13 August 2013: \u201CCarjackings\u201D, January\u2014wait for it\u20142010. The Opposition had nine years to do this. There was a problem. They did nothing. We\u2019re doing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EThis is the problem when you don\u2019t actually bother to read the bill and discover that there is, in fact, a definition of \u201Cassociates\u201D if you get past the first page. Also, it is a problem if you don\u2019t bother to go past the first page of Google, it is that classic issue\u2014you have to scroll down. As they say, the best way to hide anything is to make it item 11 on Google. This is not the be all and end all; it is one piece of a large puzzle that we as Government are putting together thoughtfully and carefully. The Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Amendment Bill is going to give us a better civil regime for the recovery of criminal profits. That in itself is a worthy aim. I look forward, as a member of the Justice Committee, to investigating the many issues to make sure that we get it right for the law, for the courts, for New Zealand. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00226881a9ff162342a08e2cc926573e7ee7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226881a9ff162342a08e2cc926573e7ee7\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This is a split call. The Hon Judith Collins.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022cebd29a9a068456aadee5df04e8ac5f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cebd29a9a068456aadee5df04e8ac5f4\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Papakura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I need to correct that previous speaker, whatever her name is, where she said that this Government\u2014her Government\u2014is the first to do anything about this. Well, I would refer her to the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Amendment Bill. It\u2019s the amendment for the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Act 2009. Which Act is it an amendment of? Oh, I don\u2019t know, a 2009 Act\u2014something that we in the National Government had to deal with straight away when we came into Government at the end of 2008. We couldn\u2019t have been any quicker. But, of course, every law which is trying to deal with criminals and criminal behaviour needs to be amended as times change and as behaviours change, because these criminals do not get rich just by sitting around and saying, \u201CWell, let\u2019s all comply with the law now, shall we?\u201D They think about ways to get around it, and they have very well-paid people to help them to do that\u2014actually competent criminal lawyers, to find out ways to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWhen I look at some of these questions that have been asked and I listen to them\u2014the Hon Mark Mitchell referred to \u201CWhat is an \u2018associate\u2019?\u201D, and I heard the other side of the House screaming out, \u201CLook at 5A.\u201D So I went to clause 5(1) inserting new section 5A in the bill, and what does it say? An associate \u201C(a) means a person who\u2014(i) is associated with the member or participant; and (ii) is not a mere acquaintance of the member or participant;\u201D\u2014in other words, knows them quite well\u2014\u201Cand (b) includes another member or participant in the organised criminal group (whether or not a mere acquaintance of the member or participant).\u201D So it doesn\u2019t have to mean that; it can mean\u2014I don\u2019t know. So, in fact, is the lawyer acting for them an associate? I think there could be an argument.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThis is going to have to get delved into in the select committee. Is their accountant\u2014because you just know that they\u2019re going to have accountants, and I know that the former head of the Police Association would know. They just have to have accountants involved. There are people involved working with these people. Are they themselves now going to have their property seized by the police\u2014who have now been told by the Government it\u2019s OK to go after criminals now, because they had five years of being soft on crime and all of a sudden it\u2019s starting to hurt. So I know what, let\u2019s go after them! You guys go and do something!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThis is incredible, actually, that this has suddenly turned up in the House tonight. When I looked at the impact summary reforms for the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Act 2009\u2014the regulatory impact assessment written up by the Ministry of Justice\u2014what is the date on that? It says 9 December 2020. What\u2019s been happening between 9 December 2020 and now? This is now 2022. Is it 2022? So what\u2019s been happening? And yet I hear that there\u2019s been no proper consultation with the broader public. There has been very limited information available to the Ministry of Justice when they did this report. It sounds to me as though this has been a rush job, and yet a rush job that\u2019s taken almost two years to get itself rushed. So it\u2019s a truly extraordinary\u2014it\u2019s right up there with Kiwi\u2014KiwiBuild. I almost said, you know, Kiwi something else about KiwiBuild.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EBut it is an extraordinary effort, and we still don\u2019t have\u2014other than the shouts from the other side, \u201CLook at 5A.\u201D, I don\u2019t think 5A gives it to us. I can think, as a lawyer who really has practised, there\u2019s lots of loopholes in this one. I can imagine\u2014I see my colleague Harete Hipango, who has spent how many years in the courts, working. How many?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2d2b9bdc1514a149362787c56acf22d\u0022\u003EHarete Hipango\u003C/span\u003E: A few decades.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271ab25d2179f4c72a3f197d2404bad1a\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: A few decades, actually\u2014a few decades. I can see her smiling away, thinking of all the opportunities here, because, actually, lawyers are supposed to do that. It doesn\u2019t really make them associates in the normal sense of the word, but, yes, they do get paid for their job. Are they going to be protected? I\u2019m going to ask, on behalf of lawyers. As a lawyer who still holds their practising certificate, it would be quite nice to be able to know whether or not lawyers are going to be associates. Because we do know that there have been some lawyers jailed for actually laundering money from these particular people. So I think we need to know more about it. I\u2019m sure that the Government will have somebody competent who could possibly speak on it. But there\u2019s always an opportunity for someone to show where they should actually be brought forward a bit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ESo thank you, we are going to be supporting this bill to select committee, and we\u2019re going to ask those questions there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2be0f68a9c14b0ea8a0739ded30b2b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2be0f68a9c14b0ea8a0739ded30b2b8\u0022\u003EWILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E \u8C22\u8C22, Mr Speaker. Can I first start my contribution by acknowledging the Minister of Justice, the Hon Kiritapu Allan, for bringing this bill into the House this evening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EIn 2020, we campaigned on working harder and smarter to keep our communities safer, break the cycle of offending, and tackle the root causes of crime, and, across a range of areas, that is exactly what we are doing. I\u2019m really proud that we have increased the number of front-line police officers and that we have expanded Te Pae Oranga. I look forward to my region being the first region which will be completely covered by Te Pae Oranga panels in our community, which are doing a fantastic job in diverting crime and ensuring that people don\u2019t reoffend. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI\u2019m also proud to have been a member of the Justice Committee. We have been working hard on legislation to protect our communities and to put more tools with our police and front-line staff to be able to ensure that we are protecting our communities and keeping them safer. I do want to mention how effective Operation Tauwhiro has been in my area, with the huge amount of methamphetamine, cash, and guns that have been uplifted in that process, and I want to commend our police for the work that they are doing. But this is another piece of legislation to give our front-line officers more tools to be able to target those whom we are most concerned about, and they are the ringleaders of organised crime. That\u2019s what we said we would go hard on in our manifesto, and we are. We are giving the police new powers to target the associates of organised criminal groups. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EThere has been a bit of discussion tonight about\u2014and in questions over the last few weeks\u2014the sum that we have landed on, and I\u2019d just note that the $30,000 threshold which has been set by Cabinet is based on consistency with existing thresholds in legislation. The advice we have received is that it is New Zealand Bill of Rights Act - compliant, but we do know that the police\u2014for operational reasons\u2014and others may have a different view. As a member of the Justice Committee, we are actively seeking to hear those expressions and views through the select committee process and we are approaching it with an open mind about the threshold, and so I look forward to receiving submissions on this bill. I commend the bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00222a59dcaa29044d1899399df232b6fd9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a59dcaa29044d1899399df232b6fd9b\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae073d6cbba34bb5b5be60065f2e0388\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, here we go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0bf640f38254745956bbdacee2766a3\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014Mr Speaker. Thank you for that, Mr Mitchell. Here we do go, indeed. I\u2019m perplexed as to why Mr Mitchell was wondering what the difference between an \u201Cassociate\u201D and an \u201Cacquaintance\u201D was, and then I worked it out. Let me just mention it: first of all, in fact, \u201Cgang associate\u201D is defined in the Privacy (Information Sharing Agreement between New Zealand Gang Intelligence Centre Agencies) Order 2018\u2014have a read of that, if you want. It\u2019s defined quite well as a person who assists in a gang member\u2019s enterprise. But, indeed, if, Mr Mitchell, you were associated with something, you\u2019d know it intimately, you\u2019d work with it, and you\u2019d understand it. So there\u2019s no suggestion that he\u2019s associated with this bill, because, goodness\u2019 sake, he can\u2019t even speak to it. If he was acquainted with the bill, it might be some passing knowledge, knowledge of a mere outline, he\u2019d be able to mention a few salient facts. But he\u2019s not acquainted with the bill either. He is a total stranger to the bill, and largely a stranger to the law. But it is a good bill. It\u2019s going to make a real change in enforcement here. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u002262e5196b52b54751a95d88c1a668126d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262e5196b52b54751a95d88c1a668126d\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Whangapar\u0101oa):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m flattered that the member wants to spend his whole time talking about me, but we have asked him to speak and explain to the House what an \u201Cassociate\u201D is in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cac0f23145d4c6fad57a6882808ad91\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: As I heard come from that side of the House, \u201CThat will be a job for the Speaker to decide\u201D, and he didn\u2019t get to six minutes before he mentioned the bill, Mr Mitchell. \u201CPeople in glass houses\u201D is the reminder.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u002203a33e8b1c8c4596b4e60ad585488313\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002203a33e8b1c8c4596b4e60ad585488313\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. You can judge how keen or otherwise the Government are on this bill, or, in fact, around crime in general, that the last speaker, Dr Duncan Webb, spent basically one minute and 13 seconds talking about a matter\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f630dc9b8d3422f9dda1e0ccdb3abe8\u0022\u003EMatt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: Talking about Mark Mitchell.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220c451c3f1e74f3dbd4325a28c224fbc\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014of justice and crime\u2014and, ironically and strangely enough, an odd fascination with the Hon Mark Mitchell, which is perhaps of a greater concern. But in all seriousness, again, for people listening to this who are suffering one of the worst crime waves that we have known, the Labour Government has short-called every time. They are so dedicated\u2014so dedicated\u2014to the question of justice that they don\u2019t even take full calls. As I say, the last speaker, a minute and 13 seconds was all he wished to give.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ELook, first and foremost, National supports this bill to select committee\u2014to select committee. Now, that\u2019s important. That\u2019s important to make sure that, actually, the public can have their say, because in concept\u2014in concept\u2014we think this is a good idea. It\u2019s been rightly pointed out that National actually proposed this. The opprobrium from the other side is, of course, we took too long\u2014too long, they say\u2014or didn\u2019t implement it fast enough. Well, of course, had the Labour Government decided to throw the election, or rather, not sell its soul to Winston Peters, we could probably have passed the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThe second point, of course, is that crime, when Anne Tolley was the Minister, is nothing like it is now. The other side scoffs and derides, but, actually, day after day, Kiwis, like those in my own electorate, are not only seeing crime\u2014over 30 ram raids in my electorate; over 30 in the seat of T\u0101maki. It\u2019s not acceptable, by the way, in any electorate, but in mine it\u2019s almost unheard of. But on top of that, of course, we are often seeing\u2014we are often seeing\u2014the, if you will, proceeds of this criminal activity as gang members flaunt their ill-gotten wealth, riding their rather expensive motorcycles, patched and so forth, driving up and down the likes of Tamaki Drive, making a hell of a racket, showing that they\u2019ve got absolutely no taste in music and they don\u2019t care at all. My constituents are completely over it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022563d9368928e471cb3919fa1ce3d5b20\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Had enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee70a775606c4978b3d245e3be7ab221\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: So in concept\u2014they have definitely had enough, Simeon Brown. They\u2019re totally over it. And yep, they\u2019ll welcome this bill; the idea, the onus of proof in many ways is reversed. It\u2019s been a very, I don\u2019t know, tiresome, problematic, and certainly time-consuming process to prove\u2014to prove to a criminal standard\u2014where these ill-gotten gains came from. So reversing that onus of proof, making this a civil matter is prudent. This might be a surprise, but I actually do pick up on some of the elements that the Green member Golriz Ghahraman was articulating in her speech, that we do need to interrogate elements of this to make sure the law does not go too far. But I think there are some sufficient early indications that we might be on the right path, and I certainly want to see them teased out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EObviously, colleagues of mine are focusing in on the word \u201Cassociate\u201D. What does it mean? I mean, we have at the moment\u2014look, I\u2019m no legal scholar, but I have noticed as well that the supposed legal scholars who got out could not define nor answer the question. In fact, they deliberately prevaricated. It strikes me as\u2014I won\u2019t spell the word \u201Cprevaricated\u201D; it doesn\u2019t fit their plain English policing requirements. But, you know, in their attempt to do plain English, I suspect, in this piece of law, an associate, according to the bill, is \u201Cin relation to a member or a participant in an organised criminal group,\u201D. Well, that\u2019s sort of useful. I think I\u2019ve heard it intimated that these groups are clearly defined. Again, the Green Party was trying to lead ad absurdum that, you know, anyone could be called into a gang. Well, we\u2019re not talking the militant wing of the Salvation Army here; we\u2019re talking about known gangs. They are very clearly defined. But an associate is \u201Ca person who (i) is associated with the member or participant;\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e36b488cb262491b9e06e1715a3ff822\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Genius.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a944a1752ea4b7daf33201e67e50deb\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014brilliant. Well, \u201Cgenius\u201D, says the supposed doctor of\u2014well, he is a doctor of laws.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022745e3ae78a8141e4a1c0735a2801504b\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Professor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5152eb6db4746a097eb49cdfd91d0fb\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014well, actually, a professor is only a title; the doctorate is actually the academic quality. But let\u2019s not disambiguate too much. Importantly so\u2014there\u2019s another big word, but I\u2019ve offended at least twice on the plain language side of things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EBut an associate is a person who associates\u2014that\u2019s a circular and stupid argument. So let\u2019s ask the question\u2014let\u2019s ask the question\u2014are members of the Labour Party, particularly Ministers, associates of gangs, because they give something like $3 million? It\u2019s a little bit tongue in cheek, a little bit facetious, but there\u2019s a question: are the Labour Ministers who, as Ministers of the Crown, visited gang members and gang pads, associates? Just asking that question\u2014are they? They\u2019ve gone remarkably quiet all of a sudden. Now, look, I don\u2019t think they are. I want to be really clear: I don\u2019t believe that\u2019s the case. But looking at the law, it\u2019s not particularly clear. Is giving money, as the Labour Government has, to a gang, a form of association? Certainly, a form of acquaintance, if I heard from Professor Duncan Webb earlier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6e4833378ce46709641535546146fc9\u0022\u003ENicole McKee\u003C/span\u003E: $2.75 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbd5a3ab586549979439a0943ac5100e\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Two point something there\u2014almost $3 million. Are members of the Government who go to a gang pad to have meetings associating with them? I think in the strict definition they are, but probably not in the meaning of this piece of law. So it\u2019s very, very difficult.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EAnd the Minister saying about receiving property\u2014you know, that\u2019s true. Harry Tam and his friends received almost $3 million from your Government, Minister. You may have forgotten that, that the Mongrel Mob received $3 million of hard-earned taxpayer money given to a gang. Let\u2019s not forget that. My constituents certainly haven\u2019t, because, as I say, not only are they annoyed at these gang members driving through their electorate, smashing the place up, but also they know darn well that the Government is not backing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ELook, the other element is\u2014and it has only been lightly touched on\u2014the whole engagement process. So, again, we had the complaint about how long it\u2019s taken to get to the House, and I think I heard from the honourable member from the ACT Party, was it, 16 months since they announced\u201416 months since they announced this. Really interestingly, when you pick up the documents\u2014this is the departmental disclosure statement. It says \u201CExternal consultation \u2026 Has there been any external consultation on the policy to be [affected] by this bill?\u201D What is the answer? \u201CNo.\u201D I would add the term, \u201Cnot a sausage\u201D. No. Nothing. Nada. I\u2019m sorry, I know it\u2019s Chinese Language Week, but I don\u2019t know the word for \u201Cnothing\u201D. Nothing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ETo make it worse for these virtue-signalling lefties, did they consult with iwi, mana whenua, M\u0101ori, who, of course, though they\u2019ve waxed lyrical\u2014well, certainly the Greens did about how they are terribly overrepresented. Well, that\u2019s true; it would probably help if you didn\u2019t commit crimes, but OK, it is overrepresented. You would think the Minister of Justice would go and consult with the very people affected by this, and I don\u2019t mean taking another $3 million into the gang pad. I talk about going and engaging iwi, hap\u016B, wh\u0101nau, mana whenua\u2014all the stuff they always talk about. Nothing; no consultation whatsoever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019m sure the retort will be, \u201COh well, they can come to select committee.\u201D, but that\u2019s not consistent. It\u2019s not consistent at all, because, actually, wouldn\u2019t you allow all people to come to select committee, rather than specialised engagement, or are you going to, Minister, and the Government, continued, and rightfully so, specialised engagement with M\u0101ori? I just think it\u2019s shocking that nothing has been done with M\u0101ori who are, as I say, overrepresented.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ELast couple of thoughts. We\u2019ve had some debate already around the derived benefit being set at $30,000. We know that the Minister and the Cabinet have tinkered with that number, and I have taken on board some of the comments from Labour MPs that this is a consistency. But I think there\u2019s going to be, you know, rightfully good questions brought up at select committee about: is that the right amount? It probably isn\u2019t going to completely fit, but I\u2019m also thinking about the tens of thousands of dollars of damage which these criminals in the gangs cause. So, again, I think in my own electorate, a lot of the time, not much is stolen. I\u2019m thinking of one of my liquor stores. Very little was stolen; clearly useless criminals. They went for sort of a half-open bottle of chardonnay rather than the decent Glenfiddich. [Interruption] What, a half-bottle of chardonnay? Oh no, sorry, a colleague was asking; I was making light of something. No, no; I see. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EBut long and short, the damage that was done to the property in the ram raid went into the excess of $45,000. I mean, it\u2019s the cost of this crime. You think of what\u2019s just happened in St Lukes recently. So I have to wonder whether the purpose of the Act needs to be expanded to not only talk about significant criminal activity of, I think it\u2019s five years or more imprisonment. I mean, granted, you can commit terrible crimes at the moment and still get home detention, but also they\u2019re talking about derived benefits of $30,000 or more. I think there could be a discussion around actually criminal or significant criminal activity that has led to a significant amount of damage. On that, I will leave it there as we continue the debate of what an associate is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u00223b5e52a0570245d89860e5b09c84485f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b5e52a0570245d89860e5b09c84485f\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Well, you wouldn\u2019t think that the National Party agrees with this bill, would you, from listening to the other speakers? I mean, I think we should just really look again at what this bill actually does, because we\u2019ve heard from the other side on numerous occasions that we need to take action on crime and criminal activity, and this is exactly what this bill does. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EAnd on the point of the definition of \u201Cassociate\u201D and just to note, I think I\u2019ve counted up at least seven current or former lawyers on this side of the House looking at this bill. Yes, it is correct that the definition of \u201Cassociate\u201D is in new section 5A, inserted by clause 5, but 5A has three subsections\u2014oh, more than that, sorry. It has five subsections. In subsection (3)\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c790a0dbd34548848c0e96585424620d\u0022\u003ESimon O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Do these subsections associate with the prior subsections about associates?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230a9b16139164b56ab2af1623a9917e1\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: The bill works together and if you want to understand the meaning of \u201Cassociate\u201D, you need to look at what a \u201Csignificant criminal activity\u201D is, which features in new section 5A(3). And if you look, then, to clause 6, you will see \u201CMeaning of significant criminal activity\u201D, and you\u2019ll see that there is a requirement, a threshold amount, of $30,000. So, yes, it is possible that there might be a scenario where there might be a professional person, as has been indicated by some on the other side, that may be covered by this, if they were associated with wrongdoing and receiving property of this threshold amount. So, hopefully, that clarifies the associate points for the people very interested in statutory interpretation on the other side of the House, and those tuning in today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI think this is a really good bill. It looks at how we can better equip our law enforcement agencies to be able to make sure that those committing crimes and those in possession of the proceeds of crimes can be followed up and can make sure that they are unable to keep undertaking these activities which are enriching people who are undertaking often illegal activities or are associated with illegal activities. So I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002210e1b6e594d74dd2b62bc7632e3df2f0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 108\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; New Zealand National 33, ACT New Zealand 10; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 12\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000584\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022cf2cfb45707149b1bf3acda2b03216cc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThat the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Amendment Bill be considered by the Justice Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Criminal Activity Intervention Legislation Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 108\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; New Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 12\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00220e7fd9fee34f49c68cff8443b73ea470\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e7fd9fee34f49c68cff8443b73ea470\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Justice Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229e32a2bb95354d2c8f77a091be456117\u0022\u003EInstruction to Justice Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022 data-id=\u0022fac8cebac63c42b3bf6a433486902558\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fac8cebac63c42b3bf6a433486902558\u0022\u003EHon KIRITAPU ALLAN (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Amendment Bill be reported back to the House by 9 February 2023.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a26746dcf49f4362b06ce8b44e527639\u0022\u003ECriminal Activity Intervention Legislation Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b596ffd35b59491888887d9dd28a9e6d\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022 data-id=\u0022f815378246be4512aedf1a7a5b86485b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f815378246be4512aedf1a7a5b86485b\u0022\u003EHon KIRITAPU ALLAN (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Criminal Activity Intervention Legislation Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221814bf4c88c445e7be46b937f5f33294\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228c06baf1e8941a5be83e94ab10db199\u0022\u003EHon KIRITAPU ALLAN\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Criminal Activity Intervention Legislation Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Justice Committee to consider the bill, and at the appropriate time I intend to move that the bill be reported to the House by 9 February 2023.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EThis bill will strengthen New Zealand\u2019s criminal legislation to prevent and respond to the harm caused by gangs and other criminal activity. It gives effect to the Labour Party\u2019s 2020 election manifesto to keep the pressure on gangs by ensuring we have the resources and powers to disrupt criminal gang activity, prosecute relevant offending, and seize the proceeds of crime. Recently, we\u2019re all aware that we have seen an increase in gang violence. There is also the context of deeper changes to the gang environment, including the establishment of Australian gangs in New Zealand, resulting in increased inter-gang pressures and a greater willingness to escalate to violence using firearms. Regardless of the cause of this violence, however, its impact has been felt in our most vulnerable communities and we must respond. Many gang shootings have been in residential areas, causing distress to communities across Aotearoa, and that is unacceptable. Everyone should feel safe in their beds at night.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EThis bill responds by amending the Search and Surveillance Act to create new search powers for police to use during times of gang conflict. These powers will enable police to conduct a search for weapons and will enable police to locate and seize weapons more effectively when tensions between gangs are high, reducing the risk of harm to communities. These are wide powers and as such must only be used in exceptional circumstances. To use these powers, police must obtain a warrant from a judge who must be satisfied that a gang conflict exists and that the powers under the warrant may reduce the risk of harm to people or property. There must be reasonable grounds to suspect the property to be searched is used either by a member of the gang or by someone who is encouraging or assisting gang conflict. The warrant safeguard will ensure police have the tools to adequately respond to risks to public safety without undermining those rights and freedoms which are crucial to a just and democratic society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EThe bill also creates a new offence in the Crimes Act, that of discharging a weapon with intent to intimidate. We know that these shootings are motivated in part by a desire to intimidate and sow fear. It\u2019s important that the law holds those involved in threatening and intimidating behaviour to account, particularly when it involves the use of a firearm. This new offence is in addition to existing offences within the Crimes Act, which require intent to cause physical harm and provides an alternative option for dealing with firearms offending.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EShootings are not the only way in which gangs seek to intimidate those around them. Gang convoys, where large groups of gang members travel together on the road, often involve high-risk and illegal behaviour such as dangerous or reckless driving. The aim of those involved is to intimidate through a display of power and disregard for the law. The Bill responds to this behaviour by amending the Land Transport Act to expand the offences which result in a mandatory 28-day vehicle impoundment. The list now includes dangerous and reckless driving not causing injury or death, as well as aggravated careless use of a vehicle causing injury or death. It sends a clear message: if you engage in this unacceptable behaviour, we will take your vehicle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EFinally, we know that these conflicts are, in part, about profits, as gangs seek to protect and expand their share of the incredibly lucrative illicit drug trade. This scourge on our country is worth almost $300 million a year, with our most vulnerable communities targeted by organised criminal entities. Drug dealing is largely conducted in cash, which is then laundered and disguised as legitimate income. The bill responds to this behaviour by placing two additional safeguards around the use of cash. Firstly, the bill amends the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism Act to prohibit cash transactions over $10,000 for specific goods. These goods, which include jewellery, gold bars, cars, and bikes, are items we know are frequently used by organised criminal entities to launder money. Limits on the use of cash to purchase these goods or help disrupt money laundering efforts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003ESecondly, the bill amends the Search and Surveillance Act to give police additional seizure powers in relation to suspicious cash. Under the existing legislation, police are powerless to seize the cash and investigate its origins unless they are able to tie it to a specific offence at the point of discovery. The amendments in this bill will enable police to seize cash they suspect is the proceeds of crime in order to further investigate and gather evidence of that offending. This will better equip them to disrupt criminal transactions and money laundering. Like the new search powers, this new cash seizure power has important safeguards. It is time bound, which means police must return the money if they cannot demonstrate evidence offending within the time set out in the legislation. It also can only be used in relation to cash that police believe to be more than $10,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003ETogether with the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Amendment Bill, which the Government has just introduced to the House, these measures will hit those people where it hurts the most: their profits. Successfully disrupting the gang\u2019s ability to launder money and profit from their criminal activity is key to reducing the incentives to carry out these activities in the first instance. It is important to remember that tackling organised criminal activity and harm requires us to also tackle the causes of marginalisation, which leads young people down that path. This Government is committed to ensuring those who are at risk, including young people and 501s, have the support they need to make better choices for their future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EHowever, it is important to note that where organised criminal entities engage in criminal behaviour and spread fear within our communities, we must respond, and respond decisively. The police need effective but proportionate powers to disrupt criminal activity, including that perpetuated by these criminal organisations. This bill responds to that need and will enhance community safety by providing clear legal authority for police to intervene and disrupt relevant criminal activity. To this end, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022579235f0f4254eb68f901f0b53dbeeca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022579235f0f4254eb68f901f0b53dbeeca\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u002255fc9892aee2427ea3ff368b8268398b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255fc9892aee2427ea3ff368b8268398b\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Whangapar\u0101oa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Look, firstly, can I acknowledge the new, incoming Minister of Justice, because, you know, we have got a tough situation in this country, without a doubt, but she has come in with energy and she genuinely is bringing legislation to the House and is trying to pick up some momentum and get some momentum going. So I do want to genuinely acknowledge her for that. We are going to support the Criminal Activity Intervention Legislation Bill through this first reading to select committee. Actually, I think that there are some very good amendments contained inside this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EBut I do want to highlight one issue\u2014that is the fact that one of the amendments is the new \u201CDischarging [a] firearm with intent to intimidate\u201D offence. I do want to highlight that there is a massive gap in the legislation that the Government has brought, in terms of trying to deal with the gangs, firearms, and gun violence that we see perpetuating itself through this country on a weekly basis. If I just go back to the amendment, the bill amends the Crimes Act 1961 and introduces a new offence for discharging a firearm with intent to intimidate in a public place. Currently, there is an apparent gap in the law, where law enforcement can intervene when a firearm is discharged with intent to intimidate, but only when it is to intimidate those in a dwellinghouse. The bill enables the Crimes Act to address all situations where a firearm is discharged with the intent to intimidate any person or group of people. The bill sets a maximum penalty of five years\u2019 imprisonment for this offence. That is a strong term of imprisonment, which will bring me to my next point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EBut the point that I wanted to make around this is quite simply the fact that we have had a Firearms Prohibition Orders Legislation Bill come through the House that didn\u2019t have any new, additional search powers. So that has meant that it\u2019s a more ineffective bill for the police to use operationally to try and prevent the use of firearms. Although this bill is trying to toughen up the law around the discharge of firearms, there is still a big gap in terms of the Police having the legislation that it needs to stop that occurring in the first place. This bill is, quite simply, reactive\u2014once the action has already taken place. When you\u2019re dealing with firearms, firearm violence, and drive-by shootings, you want to avoid that first drive-by shooting, because I don\u2019t know how we got away with it\u2014it\u2019s only that we obviously had lady luck on our side\u2014the fact that no members of the public were seriously injured or killed in any of the recent drive-by shootings that we witnessed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m just signalling to the Minister that, although good legislation, there\u2019s a big gap there, because this is reactive. The police need to be able to have some legislation and some new search powers that are proactive, that allow them to actually be able to take action, to be able to search, to be able to confiscate, to be able to take weapons off gang members\u2014whether they\u2019re in their vehicle, whether they\u2019re in a gang pad, whether they\u2019re in their own home or an associate\u2019s home. And this bill just doesn\u2019t do it. So I don\u2019t know whether or not it would be within the scope of the bill to be able to look at that, and look at fixing that at select committee. My guess is that it is probably outside the scope of the bill. But I did want to highlight to the Minister that there is a gap there, and that if she\u2019s serious about it, then she should take that up and have a look at it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThat brings me to my next point, which is a very interesting one in terms of the five years\u2019 imprisonment for this offence. Five years\u2019 imprisonment\u2014that\u2019s actually a good sentence. I think that it genuinely does reflect the seriousness of the offending. But when you go back to the departmental disclosure statement, the officials seem to have spent some time on whether or not this bill is consistent with New Zealand\u2019s international obligations. They\u2019ve gone through that, they\u2019ve spelt it out very clearly and said that there are some deficiencies that we need to have a look at. They\u2019ve gone through consistency with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990, on which they\u2019ve done consultation with the Attorney-General, which is the right thing to do\u2014that information has been posted to the Ministry of Justice website. But the thing that I find very interesting is that there hasn\u2019t been proper consultation done around the consistency with the Government\u2019s Treaty of Waitangi obligations\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229eaa8fd696cb4bed95aeb016198110d6\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: What?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022163fc10a10c6467ebb44b4db6590f54d\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014yeah. And the officials have been very clear when they said, \u201CAlthough there was no consultation with M\u0101ori\u201D\u2014so there\u2019s been no consultation with M\u0101ori at all on this bill. And yet I\u2019ve heard Government Ministers stand in this House\u2014I\u2019ve heard Government Ministers stand in this House\u2014time and time again, and highlight the importance of consultation with our Treaty partners and iwi, to see what the impact of this type of legislation is going to be on them, because we all accept that M\u0101ori are overrepresented inside our criminal justice system. I\u2019ve got my own views on that, and they relate to social investment and going right back into people\u2019s lives, getting right alongside them, and trying to make sure that they don\u2019t come into our criminal justice system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EBut it\u2019s interesting that the officials have said, \u201CAlthough there was no consultation with M\u0101ori on the proposals in the Bill\u201D\u2014so there\u2019s been no consultation\u2014\u201Cdue to time constraints,\u201D because, again, this legislation has been rushed through, and we all know that when you rush through legislation, you don\u2019t always get a good outcome. \u201COfficials consulted with relevant government agencies and analysed proposals in this Bill against the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi and the Crown\u2019s Treaty obligations. Officials have identified strong M\u0101ori interests in some of the proposals, particularly those which target gang activity. M\u0101ori are likely to be disproportionately affected by the proposals, as they are both more likely to be gang members (three quarters of known adult gang members in Aotearoa are M\u0101ori men) and the victims of gang harms. Furthermore, the fundamental rights involved necessarily impact the relationship between M\u0101ori and the Crown. As such, the proposals potentially support the Crown\u2019s duty to actively protect M\u0101ori from harm, while potentially undermining the principle of equity.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ESo their own officials have actually come back and reported that there are big issues around this bill as relate to the Treaty of Waitangi obligations. I just find it incredible\u2014maybe if the Attorney-General is in the House, he can stand and take the call on this, because he\u2019s definitely been consulted properly, and he has reported on this in terms of consistency with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. But maybe the next Labour speaker could take a call and explain to us why there has been no consultation with M\u0101ori on this bill. Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0204d8cc6c541fbbb1c49954830ef5b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0204d8cc6c541fbbb1c49954830ef5b\u0022\u003EGINNY ANDERSEN (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. The hits just keep on coming tonight. This is another strong bill from the Labour Party to try and do some more in this space, and it\u2019s really interesting to see the responses we\u2019ve seen from those opposite tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo what does this bill, the Criminal Activity Intervention Legislation Bill, do? In addition to the legislation already introduced relating to proceeds of crime, this bill does five main things: it addresses gang conflict, it addresses the issue of convoys, it looks specifically at the firing of weapons, it seizes cash, and it also targets watches, jewellery, and high-value goods. It goes straight for the guts in terms of crippling organised criminal networks in New Zealand, and it works in unison with the legislation that we\u2019ve already introduced tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo the first one: new targeted warrant and additional search powers to find and seize weapons from gang members during gang conflict. This requires a warrant and is \u201Con reasonable grounds\u201D, as well\u2014so a new, additional tool to enable police to have more ways of targeting organised criminal activity explicitly in the space of gang conflict.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ENumber two: convoys. This expands the range of offences where police can seize and impound cars, motorbikes, and other vehicles. In this space, it\u2019s important to note that there have been instances where we\u2019ve had those areas with convoys, and this particularly identifies and provides police with new powers where there are large groups of gang members who travel together on the road and often involve high-risk and illegal behaviour such as dangerous, and even reckless, driving.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ENumber three: up to five years in prison for a new offence of discharging a gun with intent to intimidate. So this is providing a new way of charging, in addition to what already exists under Arms Act offences, when there is an intention to intimidate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe fourth one is that police and other enforcement agencies are able to seize cash over $10,000 when found in suspicious circumstances\u2014so specifically giving police additional powers for seizing cash when found in particular, given circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EAnd the fifth one targets watches, jewellery, precious metals, stones, motor vehicles, boats\u2014are all added to that list of high-value goods and those prohibited for sale in cash over a specified value.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThis is part of a suite of measures that this Government has introduced to give police the tools that will enable them to respond to the current issues in and around gang conflict and the wider harm caused by gang and related criminal activity. You know, when you hear Mark Mitchell finding his latent discovery of love of the Treaty of Waitangi, that the National Party is on thin ice on this ground, because we have come in strong. We have put in some really strong measures that will equip our front line to not only address those emerging issues that we see around New Zealand but, on the other side, part of the other side to the response that this Government has delivered is also strengthening Te Pae Oranga, also in terms of providing better wraparound support for our young people who are coming from a background of either family harm or multiple complex issues, to try and provide that wraparound support and give those young people all the help that they need to make the right choices in life. This is done alongside the legislative tools that will be supported in the wider package, right across Government, that tackles the causes of gang participation and reduces offending in the long term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI am really proud to be part of a Government that delivers a comprehensive response to a complex problem, and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022011046b9d8c5468dbd1cee853a5e869f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022011046b9d8c5468dbd1cee853a5e869f\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E I think Ginny Andersen, the previous speaker, was being a little too generous to her colleagues about being part of a Government that\u2019s responding effectively to a significant rise in violent crime. I don\u2019t see that in the same way, because what we\u2019ve seen over the past five years that this Government has been in power\u2014five years. It\u2019s worth just remembering about that\u2014five years. We\u2019ve heard many speeches from the other side of the House going on about the National Party\u2019s record, but for half a decade\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262c115a5ee064ec8b88b80d755311c10\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: What! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f20e2b951464c028803341cfd9a5e7b\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014this Government has been in place\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bf4bf483c4a4867bcbdfcac4599e877\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Half a decade. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236e8fedce7344504ba7a5cc88d45cefb\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014half a decade\u2014and over that period, we\u2019ve moved from a situation where New Zealanders, on the whole, felt safe in their communities and in their homes and in their shopping centres and on their roads. Yeah, there are always problems, but there was a sense that the justice system in the broadest sense was working effectively. Over five years, we\u2019ve undermined that to a state that this country now feels that the situation is more or less out of control, and you can\u2019t now feel confident in going to the local mall in Auckland\u2014whether it\u2019s St Lukes mall or down to 277 in Newmarket\u2014that there won\u2019t be some kind of smash-and-grab with a bunch of people turning up with hammers and crowbars, causing mayhem, and knowing that they\u2019ll get away with it, and then you can\u2019t be sure that there won\u2019t be a large gang convoy driving past on motorbikes intimidating the countryside. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWe often think of New York and places like that where there\u2019s always sirens wailing in the background and the sound of a chopper overhead, but that\u2019s what Auckland feels like at the moment. There\u2019s always the sound of a chopper overhead chasing somebody and there are always sirens wailing away, and what we\u2019re seeing is a very significant increase in gun crime in our city and people are worried about that. This year, there have been very significant numbers of shootings in our city, and New Zealanders are, rightly, worried about whether this Government has the wherewithal to get on top of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo what we see in this legislation\u2014which we\u2019ll support. We\u2019ll support it at this first reading and it will go off to the select committee and we\u2019ll work our way through the issues raised by it. But, essentially, what we\u2019ve got here is a grab bag of ideas and suggestions that enables the Government to look like it\u2019s doing something but without really having thought through the broader issues and having a clear and coherent response to violent crime and serious crime in our communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EIf you look at the big issues in the justice sector broadly\u2014if I was to characterise the four big issues that we think we should be focused on\u2014first, it\u2019s dealing more effectively with this serious and violent end of crime. What has the Government done so far on that? Well, what it has done is it has repealed the three-strikes legislation. What it has done is it has looked at the situation, seen the rise in gang violence, seen the rise in gun crime, and seen the rise in ram raids and smash-and-grabs, and what\u2019s the conclusion that it has come to? The conclusion that it has come to is that we\u2019re too tough on our worst criminals\u2014we\u2019re too tough on our worst repeat criminals in this country\u2014and we need to reduce sentences for them because we\u2019re too tough on them. That\u2019s been the one conclusion that they\u2019ve drawn, and so they\u2019ve repealed the three-strikes legislation. It\u2019s a very bizarre conclusion to come to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThen, having done that, they\u2019ve come to the House and they\u2019ve said, \u201CWe\u2019re really going to deal with this. We\u2019re tough on crime and we\u2019re going to introduce a bill which makes a new offence out of discharging a firearm with intent to intimidate in a public place.\u201D Well, I don\u2019t know about you, but I can\u2019t think of too many circumstances when you would discharge a firearm in a public place without intent to intimidate in a criminal setting\u2014I mean, most people would find that reasonably intimidating. I suppose if you were firing a cannon to commemorate the death of the Queen, it might be one example, but in the gang context, I can\u2019t think of too many situations where a gang member would discharge a firearm in a public place which wouldn\u2019t be intimidating. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EBut, anyway, they\u2019ve repealed the three-strikes legislation. They\u2019ve come to the conclusion that we need to be softer on our worst repeat violent criminals and that they need to be in prison for shorter periods of time\u2014that\u2019s their broad conclusion\u2014but, at the same time, in order to look tough, they\u2019ve rushed in this legislation here tonight with a couple of ideas that will enable them to say that they\u2019re doing something. But, really, their hearts aren\u2019t in it, and that is the issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo when we run through the issues that have been raised in this, it\u2019s about this new problem of discharging a firearm with intent to intimidate\u2014well, OK. That sounds good. It also provides a new warrant for police to search and seize weapons\u2014some little tweaks there. Yep, OK, we\u2019ll have a look at those. It expands the power of police power to seize and impound vehicles where we can expand the empowerment power to include dangerous and reckless driving where no injury or death has occurred\u2014well, OK, that\u2019s fine. OK, yep, that\u2019s something we should look at. There\u2019s a new cash seizure power for police when they find $10,000 in cash in suspicious circumstances so that they can seize that\u2014well, OK. Well, that\u2019s good\u2014OK, we\u2019ll look at that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EBut the point is that you can just see what was going on in the Cabinet with Kiri Allan. She came in. We had Kris Faafoi as Minister of Justice, who took the job and then decided that he didn\u2019t seem to really like it any more and he wasn\u2019t paying much attention, and Kiri Allan has come in as the new Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EYou can see the sense of that: \u201COh, my goodness! We\u2019ve been in power for 4\u00BD years. Serious crime has gone like that, gang membership has gone like that, shootings in Auckland have gone like that, ram raids have gone like that. Oh dear, we\u2019ve got a problem. There\u2019s a sense of disorder and we need to do something. What are we going to do? Oh, that\u2019s right, we\u2019ve just reduced sentences for our worst repeat offenders. That\u2019s been the one thing we have done. Oh my goodness, we need to come up with something. Officials, come on, find us something.\u201D, and somebody came up with the idea of \u201CWell, we could make a new offence out of discharging a firearm in a public place in an intimidatory manner. That\u2019s one thing, and then, if we find $10,000 worth of cash, we can make a new seizure power for police.\u201D They cobbled together five things and said, \u201CThere, we\u2019ve got a law, and so we look like we\u2019re doing something.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWell, that, I don\u2019t think, is a very effective way to deal with what is a serious problem facing our communities and our streets and our cities and our towns and all of New Zealand, where we\u2019re worried about what has been this breakdown in law and order. It\u2019s a rushed, ad hoc approach to dealing with the problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe second area is around youth crime, which is clearly not being dealt with effectively at the serious end. When you\u2019re dealing with ram-raiders and smash-and-grabbers, sending them off to a family conference, patting them on the head, and saying \u201CYou shouldn\u2019t be doing that. We\u2019ll see you next weekend when you\u2019ll do it again, and we\u2019ll have another little family group session.\u201D is not an effective way of dealing with the problem. The thing on everybody\u2019s lips\u2014all the dairy owners and the people working in the malls\u2014is that there are no consequences for these kids, and we need to actually use some of the tools that we have available to us, whether it\u2019s in community service, whether it\u2019s home detention, or whether it\u2019s youth facilities, and actually sheet home some actual responsibility for what are significant crimes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe third area is dealing with the efficiency of the court system. That\u2019s something that the Government hasn\u2019t been really focused on and needs to be focused on, because taking months and years dealing with court cases is not helping anybody. It\u2019s putting lives on hold. The fourth area in the justice area\u2014which is another topic entirely, but I won\u2019t trifle with the Speaker by going too far in this direction\u2014is dealing with our electoral laws and standing up for and asserting the equal voting rights for all New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EBut coming back to this issue here, around dealing more effectively with the rise in violent crime and gangs, this is a modest and ill-thought-through and rapid step in the right direction. We don\u2019t know what the consequences of it will be yet, and so it will be very important to go through this with a fine-tooth comb in the select committee process and to hear from people who are affected to make sure that this piece of legislation doesn\u2019t have unintended consequences, of which there are very high risks therein. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo we will be voting for this bill. But we do so cautiously, and we just wish that the Government would actually come up with a clear, coherent, consistent, and well-thought-through plan to deal with what are significant issues facing our communities and our streets and our cities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd75733115714965bbfebbb83e6177af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd75733115714965bbfebbb83e6177af\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E \u5927\u5BB6\u597D\u3002\u4F60\u597D, Madam Speaker. I was one of the members who spent a portion of this evening talking about the National Party\u2019s record\u2014or perhaps better put, lack of record\u2014in terms of addressing community safety in this space. Perhaps what\u2019s more concerning is the way in which the National Party addresses this important area for New Zealand. They react; we respond. We understand that to respond, you both need to give robust tools to the Police as well as better pathways to young people: keeping them in school; keeping them in education; putting wraparound services around them when they need it, including counsellors; and keeping them fed at school as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a pleasure to take a call in relation to this bill, tonight, which in many ways is the sister bill of the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Amendment Bill that we also passed through first reading this evening. The two bills do sit together, and they show this Government\u2019s strong commitment to addressing organised criminal activity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EI do want to acknowledge comments made by the Green Party member Golriz Ghahraman in relation to the previous bill, the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Amendment Bill, and other members who spoke of us needing to be cautious as we head into select committee to assess the bill of rights issues that are relevant here. Of course, whenever we are creating new search powers as this bill is doing, we need to consider the implications of section 21 of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, which guarantees \u201Cthe right to be secure against unreasonable search or seizure\u201D. The touchstone that sits behind that right is the reasonable expectation of privacy against intrusion by the State. So we need to ensure that when there is greater intrusion, there will be greater justification. At the moment, we are seeing significant public justification and significant compelling public-interest arguments on the basis of being able to investigate offending, the need to recover tainted property, and the ability to protect community safety. But we do need to carefully consider these factors as we head into select committee, which I do look forward to doing. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022 data-id=\u0022231ead3baef448cfbe2b0643bc164fcf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022231ead3baef448cfbe2b0643bc164fcf\u0022\u003EGOLRIZ GHAHRAMAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. What can we say about this, the sister bill, apparently, of the last one, which was to do with tainted property. And we hear this word \u201Ctainted\u201D being thrown around again with this bill. It doesn\u2019t really have a legal definition; normally, in the criminal justice arena we talk about someone being accused of a defined crime with a defined role in that crime, but here we see a group of laws coming through that are reactionary and do little by way of being tough on crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EThe toughness that we want, I would think, is on crime\u2014not on random people that we might have somehow screened or seen as being a threat without having been accused of a crime; which these laws don\u2019t require, apparently. So there\u2019s a little bit of this\u2014and I do agree, strangely, with Mr Goldsmith when he says, \u201CFiring a firearm for the purpose of intimidation\u201D; you know, that bit. That bit seems to come as part and parcel of firing a firearm in public\u2014yes, that\u2019s true, that\u2019s bad, and we should criminalise something like that. It turns out it is already a crime, so this isn\u2019t adding a whole lot more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EBut the thing that worries us in the Green Party is that we are selling, apparently, as a Government, this idea that lowering due process standards, lowering the standards of rights in New Zealand, and allowing for the police to just go out on fishing expeditions for people that they randomly believe might be bad is somehow keeping communities safe. Well, it isn\u2019t. It can\u2019t, because we\u2019re not pointing to anything in particular that someone\u2019s done wrong; we\u2019re pointing to people by association. We\u2019re pointing to property that has to be seized because it\u2019s tainted. This vagueness breaches the principle of legality. You have to be able to tell that you\u2019ve done something wrong before you can be sanctioned for it so harshly\u2014to seize property, to have your rights to be free from search and seizure protected, these are values that a democracy should hold incredibly dear. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EToday, we saw our police force lying about crimes being committed in order to investigate different crimes. And this loosening in the way that police conduct themselves comes from indications in this House that it\u2019s OK that we can have a dishonest police force. We can have a police force that\u2019s armed, so to speak, with all sorts of amorphous powers that you don\u2019t even have to accuse someone of a crime based on evidence, let alone prove it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003ETo take away their property? That isn\u2019t going to keep the community safe, because we are not even alleging a crime. What is an associate? Well, I know what an associate is from my experience in the courts, where often we\u2019d get an opposition to bail form that would say \u201Cgang associate\u201D and then someone would stand up and say, \u201CWhat\u2019s the evidence of this, sorry?\u201D and the judge would have to say \u201CWhat\u2019s the evidence of this?\u201D and the police prosecutor would have to say, \u201CWell, his cousin is in the \u2026 \u201D Is that what we\u2019re talking about here? Is that the Government\u2019s response to crime? We know\u2014because we\u2019ve had two full independent inquiries last term into our police force and our criminal justice system\u2014who this will turn against, and it\u2019s not necessarily the people that are causing the violence and the harm. It will be entire communities that are \u201Ctainted\u201D, to use the language of these two bills, by prejudice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EWe know that those constituencies, those communities, are also the communities that are less likely to report crime, because they have been targeted over and over again by that same police force; they have been harassed, they\u2019ve been searched. We only ever see an unreasonable search and seizure case reported where there is a crime. Where are all the other cases? Where are all the other harms of a community that\u2019s constantly targeted by vague law and broad police powers that don\u2019t do anything to actually target crime, to prevent crime, to keep anybody safe?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EWe know from the evidence what does keep communities safe. What keeps kids out of gangs is accessible mental health care; inclusive education; it\u2019s drug and alcohol treatments that are available and accessible; it\u2019s affordable, warm, dry housing; it\u2019s liveable incomes. Without any of that, making new ways for police to search people and take away their property, without having to point to a crime\u2014that\u2019s bad lawmaking. So we won\u2019t commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u002281e84e2cae1a41f8858edbfe55254900\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281e84e2cae1a41f8858edbfe55254900\u0022\u003ENICOLE McKEE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I stand on behalf of the ACT Party in support of the Criminal Activity Intervention Legislation Bill through its first reading to the select committee. The reason for that is for what this bill wants to do; it wants to address the harm caused by criminal activity, including that caused by gangs\u2014finally\u2014and it wants to make the community safer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EI also note, just as ACT did with the previous debate on the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Amendment Bill, that this legislation is 16 months in the making. Now, it appears, after that 16 months, that this is another rushed piece of legislation. This bill has landed in this House for debate without the regulatory impact statement. Where is the cost-benefit analysis and the other considerations that should be a part of this policy? I mean, after 16 months of promises, surely it\u2019s sitting in someone\u2019s hard drive? Surely the Government did not make an announcement about an announcement and then made communities wait 16 months for an incomplete legislative approach? There is reference to this supplementary analysis report instead of the regulatory impact statement. I just found the supplementary analysis report on the Table down there, it\u2019s just been made available. We can\u2019t read it\u2014it\u2019s 88 pages, so it\u2019s pretty hard to read and comment on it for this, the first reading, but at least we have it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003ESo, on that basis, while ACT likes what we think the Government is trying to achieve, we will support it through to its first reading to select committee where we can\u2014along with the other Act\u2014delve a little further into its details; the missing details, the unread details, delivered in a rush. I\u2019ve heard members from Labour across the House say that these two bills that have come before us are part of a smart game, so to speak\u2014it\u2019s about being responsive rather than reactive. Well, I would have thought a smart game would be to make sure that the correct legislative process is put in front of us all so that while we say on this side of the House that we support, we can continue to do so because we understand it fully. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003ENow, let me talk to the legislative changes that this bill will include. It\u2019s changing the Search and Surveillance Act 2012 so that there is a new warrant power to search and seize weapons during a gang conflict\u2014quite like that idea. There\u2019s also a new seizure power for cash that is found in suspicious circumstance\u2014over $10,000\u2014and allowing that to be forfeited, along with powers to hold seized assets, including cash, for 28 days with two rights of extension upon application to the court and allowing for appeal. What concerns us is that suspicious circumstances are not actually defined, and it would appear that it would end up with a person having to prove to police why their assets were not brought in a suspicious manner, instead of the police proving that it was a suspicious circumstance. We\u2019d like to just delve a little bit further into that once we get to the select committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThe Auditor-General also noted that the $10,000 asset seizure was a bit too low, and we have had discussions amongst the House where the Minister of Police actually talked about whether or not there should be a threshold at all. The ACT Party says we need to be consistent with these thresholds. We\u2019re looking at the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Amendment Bill, which we\u2019ve just heard, and it talks about a $30,000 threshold\u2014that\u2019s there. Once we start playing with those thresholds we have inconsistencies. We know that when police do their raids and they find cash, drugs, and guns, quite often it\u2019s over the $10,000 value of the cash that has been seized.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EAnother point is the adding to the Crimes Act 1961 by introducing an offence to discharge a firearm with intent to intimidate. And I wonder, why on earth do we have this here? It\u2019s already in legislation. Section 48 of the Arms Act specifically has an offence for discharging a firearm, an airgun, a pistol, or a restricted weapon in or near a dwelling house or a public place. And if it\u2019s discharged, without a reasonable excuse, as to (a) endanger property; or (b) endanger, annoy, or frighten any person. The difference here is that the penalties are not matching those prescribed in this amendment bill, and I wonder whether or not this is just virtue signalling, saying we want to actually create a law; in actual fact, the law\u2019s already created. It\u2019s already there; why aren\u2019t you using it? Why have you not amended the penalties to be consistent? Why are you trying to make yourselves look\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ea11d9e0f684929a2509660a745fb7b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Order! Don\u2019t bring the Speaker into the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262787f1985b240fc80bb728513c22236\u0022\u003ENICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Madam Speaker. Why is the Government not looking at what we already have in place and actually utilising it and being honest with the community about what laws are there and how you would look to seek to improve those, and use those, instead of creating more legislation? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EAnother part of this bill is about prohibiting cash payments over specified amounts for certain high-value goods. It requires a change to the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism Act 2009. We look forward to hearing submissions on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EAnother one is the response to the gang convoys, allowing for the impounding of vehicles. However, I note that this will also apply more generally to other drivers who drive dangerously or recklessly, and that is of some concern to us. But, once again, the Land Transport Act already has rules to impound, so why not use it? It\u2019s just like the Arms Act, where the Government is trying to signal that they have spent 16 months working on a piece of legislation that is recreating the same laws that are already in place amongst other areas of law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThese two bills that have just come before the House need to have some consistency with each other if they are indeed to be related to each other as sister bills, and at this stage there are some inconsistencies between the two. ACT do look forward to fleshing these out through the select committee process and encourage people to submit their views on what this bill will mean for them, especially those that will be affected by the criminal activities and the loss of their proposed income. In that respect, ACT do support this bill through its first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022 data-id=\u0022012a22a8ec95471fba3a3c7145a25d76\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022012a22a8ec95471fba3a3c7145a25d76\u0022\u003EDr EMILY HENDERSON (Labour\u2014Whang\u0101rei):\u003C/span\u003E \u8C22\u8C22, Madam Speaker. As I rise to speak briefly in support of this bill, I would just note that it is a piece of a puzzle. As my colleagues have already discussed, it is the sister bill\u2014and don\u2019t you enjoy the feminisation of the language, as we go into the week after the 129th anniversary of women\u2019s suffrage? This is the sister bill to the previous one we discussed, which was the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Amendment Bill. Now, it\u2019s been suggested that this is knee-jerk legislation rather than part of a fairly carefully worked-through scheme. I would refer the House to the full range of responses that we are putting forward to the long-standing problem of gang violence in New Zealand, violence that has its roots right back throughout my lifetime and even earlier\u2014right back when the dinosaurs roamed the earth!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EThe Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Amendment Bill, which we\u2019ve already discussed, sets up this civil regime and closes some loopholes in the tracing of the proceeds of crime. This bill is different. It does close some loopholes, but\u2014quickly\u2014it sets out a new targeted warrant and additional search powers to get weapons from gang members during a gang conflict. This is a time of heightened tension between gangs, when violence and public disorder become more likely. We then expand the range of offences when we can seize and impound cars and motorbikes, particularly when they\u2019re being used in gang displays of intimidatory driving, if I can put it that way. We also have closed the loophole on discharging a weapon with the intent to intimidate. At the moment, the only bit you\u2019ve got of that legislation is discharging a weapon with the intent to intimidate people in a house. Now, we\u2019ve widened that, and that is a useful thing to do\u2014and it\u2019s a five-year sentence, like the other one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EFinally, we have\u2014and this does relate straight back to the previous bill\u2014enabled the police to seize cash over $10,000 found in suspicious circumstances. And, when we say cash, we also have included valuables, jewellery, watches, precious metals, gold bars\u2014I\u2019m beginning to sound like an Indiana Jones movie\u2014as well as the motor vehicles and the boats, which have been added to the list of high-value goods prohibited for sale.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003ENow, these are matters\u2014true\u2014where we need to take care. It is absolutely necessary to protect human rights and to restrict unreasonable searches, and I look forward to giving that our full attention in the Justice Committee. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b99ba1e5a0c94d59a74ab76f53ec4105\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b99ba1e5a0c94d59a74ab76f53ec4105\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Simon O\u2019Connor, five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u002268bb0f3f2c5947b6864fcd0154fca674\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268bb0f3f2c5947b6864fcd0154fca674\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much; that\u2019s probably a great joy to the House that it\u2019s only five minutes. It\u2019s halving by each speech. The next one will be 2\u00BD minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ENational does support this bill, the Criminal Activity Intervention Legislation Bill, but this bill is merely window dressing. We are seeing a spike in crime that we have not seen, arguably, for a generation\u2014if not generations. It\u2019s the amount of ram raids, the discharging of firearms, the disrespect for police officers, the disrespect for the public\u2014it is, in itself, criminal, and the consequences are just not there. Let\u2019s be very, very clear from this side of the House: we don\u2019t believe there are sufficient consequences, and that\u2019s both on a punitive front but I would also want to make the argument very clearly, particularly for those listening at home, that the National Party also believes \u201CHow do we intervene to try and change the lives, particularly of these youth offenders?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EWhat we have here is a Government that\u2019s brought, tonight, two bills that all look rather decent and amazing. Hey, this is a Government, supposedly, that\u2019s getting on with the job. But, actually, as we have teased it out through two debates tonight, we see that actually these are bills with very little substance. They don\u2019t really go all that far and, in many ways, they\u2019re just echoing elements of law that we already have. They are tweaks; they\u2019re only tweaks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EAs with the last bill\u2014actually, the first point: this is an omnibus bill, which raises the question why we didn\u2019t actually just put the proceeds of crime bill that we just discussed inside this omnibus and just make it one bill. Of course, the Government didn\u2019t want that; they wanted to make it look like it\u2019s two great, dramatic bills. What is, though, consistent is that, just like with the last bill, there\u2019s basically been very little to no consultation with the public, and I want to put it on record again: no consultation with iwi M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ENow, that\u2019s fascinating because, again, the left of the House make a big, big deal of always engaging mana whenua and iwi, hap\u016B, wh\u0101nau\u2014everyone\u2014but not on this. The Greens and others\u2014it will be fascinating to hear from the Greens on this, because they\u2019re all for consistency that M\u0101ori should be engaged, and rightly they should be. But the Government\u2019s ignored that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ELook, a couple of things\u2014and colleagues have been going through\u2014one of the provisions of this bill is a new warrant power for search and seizure of weapons during a gang conflict. I\u2019m going to be slightly facetious because it is this time of night. So that\u2019s great\u2014it\u2019s great that we\u2019re using the Search and Surveillance Act\u2014but as it is, it\u2019s during events where there is a gang conflict. I might just suggest to the Government that you don\u2019t really need surveillance powers when gang members are firing firearms out in public; it\u2019s pretty damn obvious.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESecondly, there\u2019s a search power for cash found in suspicious circumstances and believed to be over $10,000. Well, a couple of things: I think, generally, anyone carrying cash these days is suspicious; most of us use EFTPOS cards. Secondly, I\u2019m not sure how one believes something to be over $10,000; it sort of is or it isn\u2019t. And, thirdly, with rampant inflation in this country, how is the Government going to make sure that the $5 I have in my pocket today\u2014not because of inflation\u2014is going to end up over $10,000?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EContinuing on a slight facetious side, there is now a new offence of discharging a firearm with the intent to intimidate. Rightly, as Paul Goldsmith pointed out, that\u2019s pretty much ipso facto, but I will admit, flying in a Huey over Baghdad, I was wondering whether fathers celebrating their daughters\u2019 21st birthday, firing their guns into the air, might have clipped me. Fortunately, they did not. But this is New Zealand and not Baghdad, so we don\u2019t tend to do that with firearms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EAnd, finally, they\u2019re going to change the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism Act. I mean, really, if we\u2019re going to do plain English, we\u2019ve got to get shorter titles to bills. But, importantly, it\u2019s going to prohibit cash payments, as Dr Henderson pointed out. She also rightly pointed out it\u2019s not just money; it\u2019s jewels, valuables, and so forth, which, of course, raises the question\u2014which I am sure is on Andrew Bayly\u2019s mind\u2014will the Government ensure that Gib board is also included, as part of this, as a high-value item at the moment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESo, look, slightly facetious. These four elements; they\u2019re fine. There\u2019s nothing wrong with them. But I think for the general public to particularly understand: this is but window dressing. It\u2019s really just an attempt for the Government to look busy. But let me make this one little guess\u2014speculative guess, to make sure I roll out the 21 seconds remaining\u2014this will make no difference to the crime that\u2019s happening on the ground. The gangs will continue to intimidate. They will continue to drive along Tamaki Drive. They will continue the ram raids. The youth will still be smashing into the Michael Hill Jeweller\u2019s and so forth, because these laws do not go far enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00228d201cf0f34a4ed982b83c5932bf0c0c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d201cf0f34a4ed982b83c5932bf0c0c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Tangi Utikere\u2014five-minute call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00220bd33060156b44bf9dd79beb6b3c2665\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220bd33060156b44bf9dd79beb6b3c2665\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E \u5927\u5BB6\u597D, talofa. I want to make a brief contribution in support of this bill this evening because it is about having more tools available in the toolkit for our police and others out in the community and, as others have already said this evening, this bill is in tandem with the previous legislation that passed its first reading this evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe bill itself does create new offences, but it also creates some new enforcement powers and opportunities available to the police. It hits gangs and organised crime where it matters most in terms of profits along the way. In terms of those new enforcement powers, they exist for a range of different pieces of legislation. One of which, when I look through the list of Acts that the bill will change in some way, is the Search and Surveillance Act of 2012. Now, this is a piece of legislation that I am very familiar with because prior to entering Parliament, for more than five years I was authorised by the Attorney-General as an issuing officer under that Act to consider applications for search warrants and production orders and to issue those warrants or orders with conditions, time frames\u2014such as that contained in this bill\u2014for the execution of those warrants and those orders, if appropriate. Now, some of the powers that are proposed to be exercised in this bill will be exercised once a warrant has been issued. What\u2019s interesting to note for members is that the reasonable grounds for suspicion are still required when considering whether the application should be granted, so in my view this is a balance between the police having those tools but also respecting the democratic process that citizens also have to ensure that that statutory threshold continues to be met. It\u2019s something that the select committee will no doubt consider as part of this process. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u00228dd61ce664c5418e81f1b13499030d3d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228dd61ce664c5418e81f1b13499030d3d\u0022\u003EWILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Speaker. This will just be a brief call. I spoke on the previous bill, the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Amendment Bill, in which I\u2019ve heard tonight there\u2019s a connection between the two pieces of legislation, and as I said in my introductory comments to the previous bill, they apply to this one also. This was one of our manifesto commitments in 2020: that we would do a range of things to ensure that our communities are safer. I\u2019m proud of the work that we\u2019ve done to increase our front-line police officers and to extend things like to Te Pae Oranga, the iwi community liaison panels, which we have in our communities, but also the recent announcements about the Better Pathways Package that aims to place more young people in education, training, or work to drive down youth crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EWhen I think about this one, I do come with experience, unfortunately, from my electorate where I have seen the type of behaviour that this bill is proposing to address. I have seen the convoys. I have seen people being prospected with new Harley-Davidsons. So I do think that by the introduction of this range of measures, I hope\u2014I am more optimistic than the previous speaker from the Opposition\u2014that it will start to drive some changes, because we will be hitting them where it hurts the most, and that is the profits in their pockets and with the tools that they use to recruit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI do want to note one interesting thing about the bill, and that is it will also apply to non-gang members. The majority of these proposals will apply to non-gang members as well, although the new search warrant powers will only allow police to search the property of members of a gang which is actively involved in conflict or those who are not gang members but who are actively encouraging and assisting the conflict. I have heard recently that, unfortunately, there are people in our community who are licensed gun holders who are supplying gangs\u2014you know, they obtain them legitimately, but what they are then doing with them is really concerning. So it is intended that the tools that the police are given in this legislation will extend to those people if they are caught in that act, because they can be feeding those tensions which we are seeing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ESo the introduction of new search warrant powers; the ability to do more when we\u2019ve got gang shootings; as I mentioned before, the gang convoys, where we often see high-risk driving and illegal behaviour; and the prohibition of cash transactions over $10,000 for specific goods, which I can see quite clearly would be things like the motorcycles, but also we\u2019ve got the suspicious cash there. So, I don\u2019t intend to take any further time. I look forward, as a member of the Justice Committee, to receiving this bill and to hearing submissions on it. I commend the bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022acf4a0cd82d542b1bfe6cc1a266f55be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022acf4a0cd82d542b1bfe6cc1a266f55be\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Papakura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019ve been enjoying this debate this evening, and I thought I might bring a little bit of reality to it. Look, if we could just change the law, then all this bad crime would stop, no? Does anyone actually believe that? We know it\u2019s not going to, don\u2019t we? What we do want to do is to actually make it easier for law-abiding citizens or people in New Zealand to be able to live their lives without having their property smashed, their jewellery stolen, and to be intimidated. We want to give the Police the lawful support from Parliament\u2014or most of us do, anyway\u2014to go about their job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve been listening to the Labour contributions with extreme interest, because I was actually the Minister who brought the original Search and Surveillance Act\u2014or Bill as it was then\u2014through to Parliament and through the third reading. Despite some very nice comments\u2014recorded in Hansard\u2014by the former Labour MP Charles Chauvel about the way that I tried to work with the Labour Party to come to a compromise, no, they would not support the Search and Surveillance Bill. No, they would not, nor would the Greens\u2014no one expects that the Greens are going to, and that\u2019s perfectly fine because no one expects it\u2014nor did, by the way, the New Zealand First Party. Just have a look in Hansard. I\u2019m happy to help anyone with that should they need to find themselves. But actually it was National, ACT, which then had one member, and United Future with their one member, who brought through the search and surveillance legislation which the Government is now seeking to amend to give new powers\u2014a new warrant power to search for and seize weapons during a gang conflict. I\u2019m not quite sure how that can\u2019t be done right now in the heat of battle and everything else. I would have thought it was already able to be done, but I guess under this Government, Police seem to have lost the mojo by so much they basically can\u2019t come out and make a decision to go off and just go after it, because they know or they fear they will not be supported by the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI guess one of the things I find interesting is this new seizure power for cash found in suspicious circumstances and believed to be over $10,000. I think they\u2019ve probably got enough power now, but if the Government says that this is the answer to all the things and it\u2019s going to sort it, that would be great, too. We also have the inclusion of a new charge of discharging a firearm with intent to intimidate. I think discharging a firearm without lawful purpose would probably be already illegal in the Crimes Act. I would have thought so. The Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism Act 2009\u2014oh yep, another one of mine\u2014by prohibiting cash payments over a specified value for certain high-value goods. It\u2019s good to know that the gangs will no longer be able to buy their Harleys; they\u2019ll have to steal them. I really do think the Government needs to think this stuff through. Yes, I understand what they\u2019re trying to do. Yes, we agree with the intent. Do we necessarily think this is going to make a scrap of difference? Not really\u2014not really. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EAnd then we have the Land Transport Act to extend the circumstances in which vehicles can be impounded to respond to conduct that occurs during gang convoys. Oh, I think we all know about that one. That was during the COVID lockdown when the rest of us were complying with the law and gangs had taken over certain motorways because they had tangi or some other sort of event that they were at and they were beyond the law. Well, if we over here or even they over there on that side of the House had all gone out on motorbikes or in cars and we decided to drive down in convoy, I can\u2019t imagine how fast it would be for us to be stopped, asked for our licences, asked to have our cars impounded, because obviously we\u2019re under the influence of something to have done that. And yet here we have: \u201CThis new legislation\u2019s going to be all tough on crime.\u201D It won\u2019t make a scrap of difference, but we\u2019re happy to see it go to select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re happy the Government has now woken up to the fact that the public do not like to see gang leaders going in to have meetings with Cabinet Ministers in the Beehive. I think the only thing that stopped Harry Tam from coming in for his little meetings with Willie Jackson was the COVID lockdowns, and that seems to have been about it. And yet nothing in here about not paying gangs, not continuing to pay them, to fund them, and to apparently address the harm that they\u2019ve already caused. Nothing in here about victims. It\u2019s nice to know that there is now, after five long years of failure, an understanding that maybe things are not what they\u2019d like them to be. It\u2019s nice to hear from some of the members opposite who\u2019ve talked about their electorates and how gangs have been prospecting for young people. It\u2019s the same in my electorate and the same in other people\u2019s electorates. That\u2019s what they do, because the criminal gangs are inherently bad\u2014otherwise they wouldn\u2019t be criminal gangs. I think we see the intimidation that occurs for members of the public when we see them taking over the roads with their motorcycles, whether they paid cash for them at the friendly shop or else they stole them. I think we see that. It\u2019s already there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThis is not going to stop that. What is going to stop it is the Government backing the Police. And that\u2019s not going to happen until there\u2019s a change of Government next year. It\u2019s just not going to. They need a Police Minister who will stand up for them, not make excuses and say, \u201CWe\u2019re going to get a report.\u201D How about just stand up for them for a change? Why is it that the Police have to do what they have to do to just try and find people who are on the run\u2014well, they weren\u2019t even on the run; they were just lawfully going around in Northland, having been sent there by one Government department and allowed there. All the kerfuffle from the Government: \u201CWe\u2019re going to get a report.\u201D Well, the report should be about why they gave these innocent women a pass to go through and then expect the Police to go and pick it up while Northland was held in lockdown\u2014for how many days, someone remind me? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a3c390ccf3a4916ac3faf61fc32377e\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: It was 11 days, wasn\u2019t it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f562be65fe8c49548d896ad743d10aa1\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: 11 days\u201411 days. And who does this Government blame? They listen to a mainstream-media person who says, \u201CBad police did this.\u201D, and they jump on that and say, \u201CWell, we\u2019re going to get a report.\u201D Well, how about getting a backbone? How about get a spine? How about thinking about the fact that these men and women in New Zealand Police have to go out every day and night and 3 o\u2019clock in the morning and pick up the pieces of drunken and drugged violent offenders in their homes? They have to go in there and do that, and the last thing they need is a wussy Government that goes around having those discussions with the gangs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI heard the Police Minister talking about Police operational matters last week, claiming and crowing about some work the Police had done. I don\u2019t see him out there claiming and crowing about the everyday work that police officers do in their jobs. They don\u2019t get the big $10,000 cash payments that we\u2019re talking about here, and nor should they. They don\u2019t get that because New Zealand Police are renowned for being the Police who take corruption extremely seriously. But one of the ways of continuing down that path of not having corruption in our police force is to back them, to build their morale, and to build their professionalism. So instead of the constant harping and backstabbing of the Police, how about supporting them? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ESo this bill goes some way to saying the Government is putting its hands up and realises it made a mistake. And, of course, we in Opposition, in National, are not going to play the stupid games that Labour played in Opposition, where this sort of legislation\u2014these are serious infringements on people\u2019s normal human rights to go about their business. So there\u2019s got to be a very good cause for it and there\u2019s got to be some very strong measures in there to make sure that it is the right thing to do and that it is balanced on the side of doing the right thing. We\u2019re not going to play games with it, unlike Labour did in the search and surveillance debate, where they talked about what they wanted, they got most of what they wanted, and they said, \u201COh, sorry, it\u2019s not quite what we want, so we\u2019re not going to support you.\u201D When it comes to these matters of serious changes to people\u2019s legal rights, then there should be widespread support across the parties and Parliament. Otherwise, it can be easily changed very quickly without anybody giving a thought to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EBut it\u2019s nice that there\u2019s been a come-to-Jesus moment for the Labour Party on the search and surveillance legislation. I\u2019m pleased to welcome them into the fold of actually, just occasionally, hearing about law and order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022151957fae8174c12af252d2d87fa718d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022151957fae8174c12af252d2d87fa718d\u0022\u003EDr ANAE NERU LEAVASA (Labour\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E \u8C22\u8C22 and talofa, Madam Speaker. Thank you for the opportunity to rise as the last speaker for the Criminal Activity Intervention Legislation Bill, first reading. I stand in support of this bill, as this will assist our police in the work that they do. I first want to acknowledge the hard work that they and their teams do in our community. I have three area commanders in my electorate, the northern part covered by an incredible inspector, Scott Gemmell; the central part by Inspector Joe Hunter; and also my southern part from Inspector Joe Hunter. It\u2019s always a good thing when we do have meetings with the different area commanders in my area and the neighbourhood policing team, to discuss matters and targeted areas where some of these criminals are doing their activity. I know some of these tools would definitely help them in the work that they do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EThese are targeted measures. We\u2019ve all heard about the five measures in place, and I just want to highlight three that will do incredible work in my area. One of them is the motorbikes and vehicles and impounding cars, because we see a lot of these conveys, we see a lot of these young folk who jump on motorbikes and do crazy things down the road on Great South Road. It is not good, not only for themselves but also for other drivers on the road. So community safety is paramount. One of the other things is discharging the gun and doing drive-bys in our area. It is absolutely horrendous. It is no good for our community, and not only for that but for the targeted houses that they do: the neighbours get sprung with all these bullets. It\u2019s a good thing that we can put this new offence there, up to five years in prison, and I hope that we can use that a lot more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EAlso, I see on social media a lot of these gang members splashing their cash, making it rain on TikTok, and I think the police intelligence could use some of that social media to make sure that they\u2019re targeting those gang members using these social media platforms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EAll of these measures are intended to make sure our community and our wh\u0101nau are well looked after, and I commend this bill to the House. Fa\u2018afetai lava.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000699\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4bf3d64175c4855b5dcecba399a5dfe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4bf3d64175c4855b5dcecba399a5dfe\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the Criminal Activity Intervention Legislation Bill be considered by the Justice Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Justice Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228b0cc8f626734e3581d2ac4d81f41d63\u0022\u003EInstruction to Justice Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2c93fa9c1104162991c5661249cd1af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2c93fa9c1104162991c5661249cd1af\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Justice: I move, That the Criminal Activity Intervention Legislation Bill be reported to the House by 9 February 2023.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002249a26b4ea57a4572a0f8ab758c3d53a9\u0022\u003EFisheries Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b6021c4e196e4a39898e7c0a22841a6e\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00228762c96ba79a4a5eb83ee6ee3668004d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228762c96ba79a4a5eb83ee6ee3668004d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Fisheries Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5effc449d574fe29e48f1baf22bac26\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296ed1bc33b2f41aea2d8338b1c0f016a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Fisheries Amendment Bill be now read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ECan I begin by thanking select committee members from all parties, including the chair, Jo Luxton, for their constructive participation in consideration of the bill. I appreciate the time the Primary Production Committee spent to understand this bill and the complexities of the fisheries management system. Can I also acknowledge the officials who worked with the committee, and, of course, those who took the time to submit on the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe bill is needed to strengthen and modernise New Zealand\u2019s fisheries management system. Our fisheries management system has at its heart the quota management system, and it has served New Zealand pretty well, but it does reflect the science, technology, and management approaches of the 1980s and 1990s. Since then, technology has developed in ways which gives us more choices. These choices both enable some of the changing technologies which this bill proposes to utilise, but it also enables us to meet the increasing demands of consumers to know where their food comes from, and to utilise these technologies in a way that provides consumers in all parts of the supply chain with greater assurances that our fisheries are managed sustainably. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe bill proposes key changes that will address issues that are quite old now. They were brought to light under the previous National Government in 2016, when a report was commissioned from Michael Heron QC into controversies in respect of some operations that had been run by the fisheries division of the Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI), which were called Operation Achilles and Operation Hippocamp. The Heron report and those underlying reports that the Heron report looked into showed that discarding and high grading was a longstanding problem in New Zealand. The then Government proposed that we introduce cameras on boats and as is sometimes the way, we\u2019ve had to wait a while for those technologies to mature and also to find the money to do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENew Zealand\u2019s not unique in trying to address these concerns. Fisheries management systems around the world grapple with them. I was recently in Iceland and it was notable to me that they are dealing with similar issues around illegal discarding that were exposed recently in Iceland through the use of drones. They were surprised by the scale of that discarding, just as I think New Zealand Ministers were surprised following Operations Hippocamp and Achilles. So the bill proposes to tackle the issue of high grading, or the discarding of unwanted fish, by improving the incentives for better commercial fishing practices. It does this by both the introduction of on-board cameras and these rules around discards which support a change in fishing behaviour, because fishers are incentivised to more selectively target the fish they want and to maximise the value of the fish that is caught.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo the bill proposes that all fish that are caught, whether they are a quota management system species or not, must be reported. All quota management systems species must also be landed, except if there is an exception provided for in regulations. The exceptions process will be evidence based and takes into account that some fish are best returned to the sea. There are three exception categories. The first is that the species have an acceptable likelihood of survival when returned. The second is that the species if retained would damage other catch on board\u2014for example, ammoniating sharks, if they\u2019re kept, can ruin the rest of the fish in the hold. And the third area is species-specific returns for biological, fisheries management, or ecosystem purposes. An example of that is a female rock lobster with eggs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWe know that there are concerns about the impacts of these proposals, especially amongst some inshore fishers, and the Primary Production Committee listened to a range of issues. I would emphasise that there is some flexibility for live fish to be returned to the sea to support the ecosystem. Decisions on an acceptable likelihood of survival will be guided by new factors, including the sustainability status of the stock, the fishing methods used, and relevant cultural, social, and economic considerations. Fishing methods are developing, including some new harvest techniques which make it more likely that the fish will survive if released. The proposed rules aim to incentivise fishers to avoid catching fish they don\u2019t want. This can be achieved in part through a change in fisher behaviour, and also through the use of new technology. There\u2019s also a range of new technologies available or being developed, including, as I\u2019ve said, the new types of nets, alternative methods such as potting or longlining, and the use of cameras on nets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe bill proposes a four-year implementation period to ensure that fishers have got time to transition to the new rules by changing behaviour, using new innovative fishing methods, and developing new markets. Some of the current exceptions to what fish can or must be returned to the sea will continue as they meet the new rules. Other current exceptions will be reviewed in consultation with stakeholders and Treaty partners to see if they fit under the new framework or whether they should be revoked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe Government has committed to review 75 percent of the sub-minimum legal size returns and 95 percent of live release exceptions in the first two years. So this will provide certainty to the fishers about what exceptions remain and which ones will be revoked early on in the implementation period. If a decision is made to amend or revoke an exception, implementation is delayed by between three and six months to ensure fishers have time to adjust. And an indicative review schedule has been developed and will be made available shortly to stakeholders for feedback, which will, again, provide more certainty about the next steps.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe tightening of landing and discard rules is supported by the roll-out of on-board cameras. Cameras provide more accurate information about fishing activity, better evidence for a responsive management system, and they also encourage a change in fishing behaviour and reduce unwanted discards and waste. They\u2019ll also support measures to reduce the bycatch of birds and sea mammals. The bill supports broader use of on-board cameras, which has been tested with the fishing industry, who are broadly supportive of the initiative.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWhen introduced in 1986, the penalties regime was based on the low probability of detecting illegal discarding, with high penalties when offending was proven. So it was pretty hard to catch people under the old system, and, therefore, when you did, you had to hit them pretty hard in order to act as a disincentive to that behaviour. While prosecutions will remain available as a deterrent for serious offending, the bill introduces a more graduated offences and penalties regime that can now be implemented because we have cameras on boats. There is a 50-fish limit, or a threshold, for the proposed infringement regime. That has been the subject of some scrutiny. To a certain extent, any limit is arbitrary as to where you draw the line, and we thought that was the right place to draw the line. In addition, the bill makes infringement regulations available for lower-level offending that doesn\u2019t justify the full imposition of the criminal law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWhen determining an appropriate prosecutorial response to non-compliance, the MPI enforcement officers will have a prosecutorial discretion, and they will, as with other prosecutors, consider all factors of the offence, including whether the act was intentional or accidental; the nature of the offending, including the species and quantities involved; and previous behaviour of the fisher. The proposed regime will allow commercial fishers to be penalised more proportionately and appropriately, relative to the level of their offending.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, the select committee process has made a number of changes to strengthen the bill. There will be a small number of changes, by way of Supplementary Order Paper, as we continue to polish the bill. There are mainly technical in nature. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00223b84fd7193ae482395037cc032c30a0b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b84fd7193ae482395037cc032c30a0b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u0022871d3d7dfdaf436aa3608835147dad23\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022871d3d7dfdaf436aa3608835147dad23\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. A pleasure to rise and take a call on the Fisheries Amendment Bill this evening. As we are getting late into the evening I am hoping we can keep everyone focused with their attention after that first riveting contribution by the Minister. Just a couple of aspects that I wanted to touch on here. Ultimately, what we\u2019re talking about is trying to improve the sustainability of our fish stocks and the intent there is good. That\u2019s something that National certainly supports: enhancing that protection of fish stocks, the sustainability and, indeed, our track record speaks to that, having established 11 marine reserves over our nine years in Government. Interestingly, this Government have not yet established a single one in five years of Government, the longest period since the 1980s in which no new marine reserves have been established\u2014but I digress. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ESo the intent here, as I say, is good. We will be supporting the bill at its second reading, but we do still have some concerns with it, and I\u2019ll touch on those throughout this contribution. It stems, in part, from the quota management system (QMS)\u2014ultimately our current model being relatively good but starting to show cracks. In my mind, it seems it\u2019s not quite as effective or as responsive as it should be to enable us to have confidence that we are indeed protecting those fish stocks appropriately, in a timely manner, and are able to respond to any significant changes in biomass throughout our 642-odd fish stocks that we have around New Zealand. What we have seen in some of those, and we can look at the recent data from the Ministry of Primary Industries around their fish stock assessments, is that some 20-odd percent of the stocks that they assess\u2014and they only assess a fraction of those 642\u2014were overfished at the last assessment. So, to me, that suggests that we have some real concerns that must be addressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EIt is my intent, hopefully, through this legislation, that we will see an improvement in some of those areas, whilst at the same time actually helping to give our commercial fishers a bit more confidence. Because what we\u2019ve seen again through the QMS process is that we have significant fluctuations. At times we can have changes of more than 100 percent increase or decrease to a particular fish stock when it is eventually assessed because there\u2019s suddenly found to be a significant increase or decrease in the biomass of that particular fish stock. And so on that basis, it can have a significant impact on a potential business operation if you are suddenly having your total allowable commercial catch limit decreased drastically off the back of one of those fish stock assessments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ESo my concern here, though, particularly for the smaller players, is around whether or not the implementation of this bill and the costs associated with it are going to outweigh the benefits. Here I am\u2014my third contribution on three pieces of legislation where we have seen in each instance a Government that is just happy to continually impose costs on businesses. We had it with the Dairy Industry Restructuring (Fonterra Capital Restructuring) Amendment Bill\u2014there\u2019s millions of dollars more of additional cost going in there\u2014we had it with the Deposit Takers Bill put forward earlier today, and now with this one. In each of these instances, it just seems that the Government have no regard whatsoever to the increased cost that their potential changes or their proposed changes will have on business. That\u2019s simply not good enough. Business underpins our economy and we need to make sure that we are supporting it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EOf course we need to continue to evolve and to adapt, and I think we can see those expectations from our markets starting to demand different management practices with regards to fisheries, but also across the food and fibre sector more broadly. The perception around the sustainability or the traceability that people demand with their purchasing decisions, particularly from a food and fibre perspective, is absolutely critical. So we must continue to evolve to adapt to that changing demand as well, and that\u2019s something we\u2019ve had a really good history of here in New Zealand. Our food and fibre sector has always continued to innovate, to evolve, to adapt, and to remain profitable. So I have confidence that our commercial fisheries operators will be able to do so in this particular piece of legislation, and it\u2019s encouraging to see that they do have a four-year transition period, as the Minister mentioned as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EBut, and I put that \u201Cbut\u201D out there again, cost is a big concern for us, and I\u2019m not confident yet that enough was done to actually address the concerns raised by stakeholders through what was, again, another truncated select committee process. This Government seems to think, again, it knows best and doesn\u2019t need to consult widely. We\u2019ve seen it time and time again, and the risk is, I think, that we are not seeing an appropriate level of consideration given to the concerns raised by a number of stakeholders, particularly around that cost aspect. Yes, technologies are evolving, and it is getting easier to put some of that on board, but there are still impositions. And of course, some of the interpretation of how these main provisions will be brought into play is a real concern for these commercial operators as well, because, ultimately, what we\u2019re being told here is \u201CTrust us. We\u2019ll put it all in the regulations. Just trust us, and we\u2019ll operationalise it from there.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EWell, that\u2019s not good enough, and that is one of the areas that we really would like to see a much clearer focus on, because, even with regards to some of the main provisions around the graduated penalties and offences, what fish can be landed and what must be returned to the sea, some of these aspects that are now going to be fleshed out through regulations, when we\u2019re being told by officials that they are working on it and they\u2019ll come up with an appropriate framework, well, we have seen, as I say, unfortunately, too many instances of legislation imposing significant costs on businesses without seeming to have any regard to what that ultimately means or what the unintended consequences of that may be. So that is a real concern that we on this side of the House have with this piece of legislation and the potential risk it provides to our commercial fishers whilst, of course, wanting to ensure that we are improving that sustainability aspect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ESo, on those main provisions, amending the rules of what must be landed and returned to the sea\u2014repealing Schedule 6\u2014yep, that all makes sense. One of the aspects that I haven\u2019t heard addressed, though, that I really would like to hear from the Minister on through the committee of the whole House stage is not just around, obviously, the first aspect\u2014acceptable likelihood of survival; that\u2019s fine, and negative economic value being some of the exceptions for potential discard. But research purposes is an area that I\u2019ve had raised that, I understand, is quite niche, but I wonder whether or not that has come into consideration with regard to the National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research Ltd vessels, for example, being able to continue to discard. Are they then captured by these carve-outs or not, and what are the implications for them undertaking research purposes where, in some cases, they, obviously, as a part of the research process, have to land significant volumes of fish which they don\u2019t have capacity to store on the vessel and would have to discard? So I\u2019m interested in whether that fits within this particular carve-out for what can be returned to the sea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EI also have a concern around the graduated offences and penalties regime, and this is an area where we did push in the select committee to try and get some more change, because, whilst we support having a graduated system rather than just the blanket approach we\u2019ve seen, or edge-of-a-cliff type of approach that we\u2019ve seen previously, what we\u2019re seeing now is that the graduated system is only focused around the volume of fish rather than the value. So, when we look at the discard thresholds for those penalties, if a discard of less than 50 in excess to the limit\u2014less than 50\u2014is discarded on any day, that\u2019s a $10,000 fine. Over 50, it\u2019s is a $100,000 fine. Now, that sounds like a graduated process, but, actually, if we think about the types of fish stocks that might be part of this, actually, if we catch 50 southern bluefin tuna over and above what we\u2019re entitled to catch\u201450\u2014that is a significant value of fish, then we are only liable for a $10,000 fine. But if we catch 51 pilchards\u2014tiny little pilchards; a very low-value fish\u2014we are liable for a $100,000 fine. So that seems clearly to be out of proportion with the level of the offence. And so it shouldn\u2019t just be a number on that basis, but should indeed be focused around the value of those particular fish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EThen, lastly, on the streamlined decision-making process of catch limits, I think that\u2019s actually a good aspect. It gives a bit more flexibility. The Minister then is able to be more responsive to those aspects I touched on at the start, around significant fluctuations in fish biomass that can result in a need to change the fish stock or the commercial catch limits before a formal fish stock assessment can be completed, which can take 18-odd months to do. Anecdotal feedback from commercial fishers could suggest that needs to happen earlier. So some of those aspects are good. Overall, though, we do still have significant concerns, and we are likely to be putting forward a Supplementary Order Paper at the committee of the whole House stage, but we support it for now. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u00228ad4df1358724bbe8a1c3f81be87be7b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ad4df1358724bbe8a1c3f81be87be7b\u0022\u003EJO LUXTON (Labour\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to take a call on this piece of legislation as the chair of the Primary Production Committee who oversaw the submissions, etc., of this piece of legislation after the first reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EBefore I begin my contribution, I just want to acknowledge my fellow select committee members, who worked really well and in good faith on this piece of legislation, and, in particular, Todd Muller, who was the lead Opposition member on this. The committee worked really well together; it wasn\u2019t easy. There were some differing views\u2014quite strongly differing views\u2014but we did come together and come out with a second reading piece of legislation that I think is quite reflective of most areas in which we agreed. I\u2019d also like to acknowledge and thank the advisers who worked really well with the committee. We had several meetings outside of parliamentary hours and early mornings, etc., and everyone worked well and contributed really well to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also actually really like to acknowledge the submitters that we heard from. Some of them were actually quite heart-wrenching and emotional stories that some of our submitters told of the effects that COVID has had on their businesses, and I don\u2019t think that we\u2019ve stopped and perhaps thought about that so much. We\u2019ve talked about how our farmers, our agricultural farmers, but also, actually, our commercial fishers were severely impacted during that time of COVID, when they were unable to operate. Fisheries is an important part of our economy. It employs over 13,000 people and contributes $4.2 billion to our economy overall, with $1.35 billion in export revenue, so it is a very, very important piece of our economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EThe Minister traversed many of the changes that we\u2019ve made to this piece of legislation, but one of the things I wanted to touch on was just the importance of this piece of legislation allowing having cameras on board, and I know that some of this was initially thought of and begun under the Hon Nathan Guy. So it will be really good to see this come to fruition and have these cameras on boats. I think that\u2019s going to be important to ensure that we do see more transparency and that it does encourage better fishing practices. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard comments around the infringement regime, and the previous speaker talked about there being a $10,000 fine. I think that the words he didn\u2019t include were \u201Ccould be\u201D\u2014\u201Ccould be\u201D\u2014but not necessarily, and I think, from what I understand, there is going to be consultation with the sector, and further decision-making around how things might look will be based upon those findings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EBut we did hear that the demerit point system is going to be introduced, which I think is really good. It\u2019s important that it is relative to the offending as opposed to one-size-fits-all, and the infringement notices that will come into force\u2014we did have discussion around what that might look like. Is it going to look like when you get a speeding ticket or a parking ticket? So that\u2019s my understanding of how that\u2019s going to be, and they will expire after three years, which I think is really good because sometimes people do things without perhaps realising, unintentionally, or sometimes intentionally, but it does give people the opportunity to redeem themselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003ESo, again, I just want to thank and acknowledge my select committee, who worked really well on this piece of legislation, thank the Minister, advisers, and all those who submitted to it. So I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec0dc724131348b1b51808fa47956f85\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec0dc724131348b1b51808fa47956f85\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is suspected, and I will resume the Chair at 9 a.m. tomorrow for the extended sitting. Good evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 9.55 p.m. to 9.a.m (Wednesday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209277ac6d0edc7d54a66a035598117fbc65d000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bf63f1c8973b460ab07e11b6ad8d651a\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 27 SEPTEMBER 2022\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a5f21c7bb4aa454db4c9e105ee35b3c7\u0022\u003E(continued on 28 Wednesday, September 2022)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022afe0b0d7fd174744bc86c3bbc192e4be\u0022\u003EFisheries Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022217d48e67770490db3c6f552449058b0\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00224a45581c182747939657f788c094547e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a45581c182747939657f788c094547e\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: M\u014Drena.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e6abbdd4f0648548add5709de2d0ed9\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: M\u014Drena.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204c3f837f9b643b2a23672e35dde2c1a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re off to a cracking start\u2014I\u2019m loving this. When I left the Chair last evening the House was considering the second reading of the Fisheries Amendment Bill. I now call on, from the National side, Joseph Mooney.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u0022b51597512d224e6c97219580b3ca4552\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b51597512d224e6c97219580b3ca4552\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise to speak this morning on the Fisheries Amendment Bill. I\u2019m going to start just by speaking about how important fisheries are in my electorate of Southland. I\u2019m lucky enough to have most of Fiordland in my electorate, and this is an area that has the CRA8 fishery, which is the largest mainland fishery geographically for crayfish. It extends from Long Point south to Stewart Island and the Snares, the islands and coastline of Foveaux Strait, which is Penny Simmonds\u2019 territory, and then northwards along the Fiordland coastline to Bruce Bay, about 50 kilometres north of Haast. While the overall area is large, almost all fishing occurs within 8 kilometres of the shore. There are 146 CRA8 quota share owners, and shares trade for more than $1.8 million per tonne equivalent. The CRA8 fleet operates in the most remote coastal area of the South Westland and Fiordland areas, and the value of the landed catch is estimated to be some $122 million, based on the average price paid to fishermen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EI also have, I\u2019m glad to say, Te Anau, which has had a very challenging time over the last 2\u00BD years with tourism. It\u2019s also home to the Fiordland Lobster Company, and this is quite an exceptional company. It is Te Anau based; the headquarters are in Te Anau. It\u2019s a vertically integrated lobster company, and it is New Zealand\u2019s largest exporter of high-quality lobster, dedicated to the sustainable fishing and live export of wild-caught southern rock lobster. Sustainable fishing is an important point which this Fisheries Amendment Bill is endeavouring to address. I would just say that the Fiordland Lobster Company started back in 1988, when New Zealand introduced the world-leading quota management system, ensuring sustainable fishing for generations to come. A year later, in 1989, 15 Fiordland fishers created the Fiordland Lobster Company. In 2010, it expanded its operations into Australia, where it operates under brand South Australian Lobster Company. The head office is still in Te Anau, nestled in the heart of Fiordland, with lobster-receiving depots and export packing factories located throughout New Zealand and Australia. So it\u2019s quite an amazing success story.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ENow, this bill is one that is endeavouring to make some changes to strengthen the effectiveness of New Zealand\u2019s fisheries management system. It also repeals the Fisheries Act 1983, which is no longer used. National supports legislation that enhances the protection of New Zealand\u2019s marine environment and encourages better fishing practices that enables our fishing sector to sustainably thrive. National believes that fish dumping and illegal activity happening under the current system must change in order to prevent lost future economic opportunity. We still, however, have some strong reservations about this bill, following the select committee stage. National is deeply concerned about the potential for costs to outweigh the benefits once changes are enacted. And, on that, I should note that it is a particularly challenging time for the fishing industry. Just last month, it was reported that fishing boats are tied up, unable to feed a hungry world market. The price of fuel has increased over the last year by around 150 percent, and what this means in real terms is that fuel is consuming up to three-quarters of the value of the catch. That leaves little to pay crew, freight, and other costs, without factoring any return to the fisher. There are currently boats reported that have been tied up because it\u2019s simply not economic to go out and fish. So we need to keep that in mind as we look at this, and that is why National is concerned for the potential costs to outweigh the benefits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ECrucially, the detail on how these amendments will be operationalised by species is left to regulations that are yet to be developed. The success of the regime depends largely on Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI) pragmatism in developing these new rules for a transition period that ends in 2026. It\u2019s certainly my hope that MPI is pragmatic, particularly taking into account the fact that it is an incredibly challenging time in the fishing industry with the costs, in particular of fuel, and that we do need to catch fish to feed the world. So the bill is not perfect, and elements of the design will be criticised by many, if not most, stakeholders because if the rule changes are not flexible enough to meet our diverse industry, in terms of species, operator size, regions, and innovation, many operators could be put out of business. That is the last thing we want to see. The sector wants a pre-set decision framework. It does understand the need to reduce bio-catch waste and accepts on-board camera implementation. They want the criteria to be applied fairly, reflecting the realities of trawl fishing. They accept that a more adaptive and granular penalty regime is an improvement on the cliff-face model that exists currently. Although some changes were made to bill during the select committee process, we are not satisfied that enough has been done to address stakeholder concerns. When National is in Government in 2023 and the transition process has begun, we will closely monitor what parts of the bill are working, which ones aren\u2019t, and we\u2019ll seek to improve those parts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EWe have some concerns with the landings and discards sections in this bill. Currently, discards back to the sea can occur within a very strict set of exceptions, which may have a disproportionate impact on inshore fishers, depending on how pragmatic or otherwise officials are when setting those regulations. The priority should be achieving a workable outcome that increasingly focuses on the benefits of cameras on board to assist with transparency of on-board performance rather than a strict interpretation of the primary legislation. As noted in the main committee report, we remain concerned that the penalty regime has no consideration on the various value weightings of respective species. We believe that, when setting fines regarding the discarding of fish, referred to in new sections 252(3A), 252(5A), and 252(5)(ba), regard should be had in matter including the species and, importantly, value. The sector does need assurance that it won\u2019t be hit by the bill\u2019s proposed changes, especially businesses still grappling with the economic downturn as a result of COVID-19 and now the impact of high fuel prices and high labour costs, which is having a real impact. As I mentioned earlier, it is resulting in boats being tied up, and in fact it\u2019s having a disproportionate impact on smaller operators\u2014the people that we want to see stay in business. So that is something to watch closely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThis bill places emphasis on the potential for New Zealand to be a world leader in fisheries management as the result of changes proposed. That is something New Zealand has been very good at, with the development of the quota management system many years ago. This is endeavouring to continue on that same trajectory. National, however, is less concerned in this instance about doing it first and, as I said, is primarily concerned about making sure it\u2019s done right. So this is a bill that we will be supporting, but we will be watching closely to see the impact and, hopefully, see the pragmatism from MPI in the way that it is applied, to ensure that we can continue to have sustainable fisheries and people can remain in work and continue to feed the world from New Zealand\u2019s fantastic waters. So, with that, I will conclude my remarks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022 data-id=\u002247cc9cfec8014ea2b25f0c277325053c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247cc9cfec8014ea2b25f0c277325053c\u0022\u003EANGELA ROBERTS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E M\u014Drena. It is a pleasure to rise and take a call on the Fisheries Amendment Bill. It\u2019s been a long process through select committee and as we\u2019ve seen in recent times, a really great one because at select committee we get the experts in and they\u2019ve really helped us grapple with some incredibly complex issues that are seen in very, very different ways by a huge range of stakeholders who will want the best for our moana and our kai moana, but have different ideas about how we approach that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EThis bill is a result of realising that we need to take the opportunity to upgrade our arrangements, our quota management system and our fisheries management system. These came about more than a generation ago when we didn\u2019t have the knowledge, the data, the technology, and the ability to really judge and assess what is going on under the ocean, and to be able to modernise that is a really great opportunity. And of course the other side of that is, as we\u2019re leaning into the world environment, the global market, we want to be able to hold our heads up high honestly and say that we have a sustainable fishery, and to lead by example. That isn\u2019t just about delivering fish that is sustainably caught, but teaching the rest of the world how we can do it. I think there\u2019s some wonderful intellectual property as well as cultural practice we can share as we lead the way, it\u2019s exciting times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EThe cameras and the landing and discard rules, this is about incentivising behaviour. This is about focusing the mind and making sure that every opportunity to improve technology and practice means that our fisheries are best protected. I want to thank all of those who turned up to select committee, especially our fishers from Taranaki, our inshore fishers. We heard about those fishers who are really struggling with their costs of production at the moment. I really appreciate and want to acknowledge the huge effort they\u2019ve gone to over the years to really be proactive about taking up new technology and really testing out the opportunities that come with having cameras on boats and the additional data and knowledge that they will be able to contribute to the system. That will take years to implement, because we do need to make sure that we learn how best to use this data. They engaged in good faith and we truly believe that this is a bill that is fit for purpose. I recommend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c514461cc48140819c627ae4d7f6e138\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c514461cc48140819c627ae4d7f6e138\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai o te Whare, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. Thank you. I\u2019m pleased to take a call on the Fisheries Amendment Bill. It was a very interesting bill to join the Primary Production Committee on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ECan I start by thanking all the submitters. We had nearly 500 submissions, and 56 submitters presented in person. They, particularly the individual fishers, gave the committee a much-better appreciation of some of the practical issues around fishing, their concerns about rising fuel costs and around rising maintenance costs for older boats. I came away with a very strong impression that those who don\u2019t own quota, or don\u2019t own annual catch entitlement, and have to lease it, but who are doing the hard work at sea, are really being squeezed. Really, I think it\u2019s incumbent on Government to look long term about what sort of support is needed and how we enable people to transition out of the industry. The answer is not as National is suggesting, to roll back the regulation, but to look at the future here, and there may well be an opportunity for some people to transition out and for Government to help them do that. Can I also thank the recreational fishers and environmental groups for their really thoughtful submissions and for quite a number of submissions from industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThere are a lot of people who care about our oceans, who care about fish, and who care about fishing. But we need some fundamental changes to the Fisheries Act 1996 to achieve sustainable fisheries management in the interests of healthy oceans, not just tweaking it. It is disappointing that Labour, this term, without the handbrake of New Zealand First\u2014which, of course, got big donations from fishing companies\u2014is not using its strong majority to make substantial changes to the Fisheries Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThere are elements of the bill which the Green Party supports, but we do have this fundamental concern that, as the Environmental Defence Society noted, the bill entrenches the existing single-stock utilisation - centric approaches to fisheries management under the quota management system (QMS). It doesn\u2019t progress or resolve issues with the implementation of the sustainability principles in the Fisheries Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe provisions that we do support are the new rules around landing and discards. They\u2019re intended to help discourage dumping, discourage high-grading, and ensure that all fish that are caught are reported, accounted for, and brought back to port. They are intended to ensure that fishers are more selective\u2014they actually catch the fish that they want to sell. Of course, in the QMS, we\u2019ve had a requirement in the Fisheries Act that all QM species are supposed to be landed, but we\u2019ve had very complex, very permissive, and very broad exceptions. We saw the huge scale of dumping, misreporting, and under-reporting when Dr Glenn Simmons from Auckland University did a 2016 report, and he showed that, since the 1950s, fishers have caught more than double what they reported and what New Zealand reported to the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations. Then, we had the Heron review after Operations Hippocamp and Achilles when the Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI) didn\u2019t prosecute. That Heron report showed that there was widespread dumping of unwanted fish, and MPI\u2019s decisions had been flawed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo now we do have the requirement in the bill that fish be brought back to port. I\u2019m sure fishers were listening closely to the Minister last night, when he highlighted that the current exceptions to landing requirements, which are listed in Schedule 6 of the Act, will continue to apply for up to another four years. Officials advised us that some of those exceptions will continue indefinitely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EAlso, the bill provides, in clause 14, in new section 72A, a significant discretion to the Minister to be able to provide exceptions to the landing rules and to allow fish to continue to be returned to the sea. The committee\u2019s recommendations here removed the very subjective criteria, \u201Cnegative economic value\u201D, which was problematic. But there is a big exception if there is an acceptable likelihood of survival of the stock or the species, and the Minister can have regard to social, cultural, and economic factors that the Minister considers relevant when deciding on that exception. So we think that provides too much flexibility, and we have got a Supplementary Order Paper there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EAnother of the concerns, which is one that we shared with fishers, is that because fish have to come back to port, there may not be markets for some fish and there is a potential that they end up going to landfill. So we want MPI to look at this really closely once the bill\u2019s passed, and ensure that we don\u2019t have fish being caught and then ending up in landfill, because that would be the very worst outcome, one almost as bad as fish being caught and going to be processed to fishmeal, a very low-value use. So we really want MPI to have a very close look at what happens to fish that are being brought back to port that don\u2019t currently have a market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo while the industry had concerns about the landing and discards rules\u2014and I really thank organisations, like Fisheries Inshore, which very helpfully produced a graphic illustration of some of their concerns, and talk about a shared vision for fisheries\u2014I think everybody\u2019s got a shared vision of sustainable fisheries. It\u2019s how we get there where there\u2019s a lot of conflict. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo there are concerns from the industry about the landing rules, but major concerns around the pre-set decision rules from environmental and recreation fishing organisations. The industry did support the pre-set decision rules. As Barry Torkington, who\u2019s a former commercial fisher said\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201CIn return for cameras on boats, this bill quietly lays the foundation for changes that have been widely unpopular in the past, yet highly desirable to commercial interests.\u201D These changes, because they allow the Minister quite wide scope when applying the rule to make changes to the total allowable catch or the total allowable commercial catch, there is a big concern from environmental NGOs, recreational fishers, that this will allow changes that benefit the industry without allowing public submission. They pointed to a number of examples\u2014the fishing down of rock lobster in the Hauraki Gulf; tarakihi, though the Minister\u2019s recently made decisions on that; scallops and the fact that throughout Aotearoa there is really destructive scallop dredging, overfishing has occurred and really collapsed our scallop stocks. Changes have only occurred there because of widespread public concern and the Minister being flooded with submissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo the concern of a lot of organisations is that because MPI at the moment only has the ability to adjust catch limits for between 20 and 30 stocks\u2014and it\u2019s saying that it needs these pre-set decision rules to allow it to be more agile, more flexible\u2014there is the risk that too much can happen behind closed doors, with too much influence from commercial industry and without that ability for the public to really have their say. Certainly, when pre-set decision rules are first developed, or when they are amended, there is public consultation, but there is no ability to consult when the rules are actually applied. So if the original rule has too wide a range for adjustments to the total allowable commercial catch, for example, there is the potential for decisions which might drive the stock down. So there is a fair amount of scepticism amongst those who think MPI is far too closely aligned with commercial industry, and is captured by it, around how these pre-set decision rules will actually work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EBut the lost opportunity\u2014what\u2019s missing from the bill? There\u2019s no change to the purpose of the principal Act. We\u2019ve still got that 19th century mentality that there are no limits to the exploitation of nature. I take issue with the statements from the previous National speaker that this is about fishing to feed the word; that sort of an ethos is how we really deplete stocks, how we deplete our fisheries, how we don\u2019t recognise the current crisis and the need for fundamental change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s been no updating and strengthening of the precautionary principle in section 10 of the principal Act. That\u2019s been unchanged since 1996, despite 25 years of progress and developments in international law about how we better define \u201Cprecautionary fisheries management\u201D, and despite the United Nations General Assembly and the Food and Agriculture Organisation developing guidance and calling on States to better define \u201Cprecautionary fisheries management\u201D and apply it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo there are elements of the bill, particularly around the landing and discards rule, that we support, but it is a lost opportunity to go much further and recognise the oceans crisis, recognise the huge depletion of a number of our fish stocks and the impact that that has had on ecosystems. It is a lost opportunity to move to really good ecosystem-based management.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u00220115f269e8d84fe2a5e52c09042c3d8d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220115f269e8d84fe2a5e52c09042c3d8d\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. ACT won\u2019t be supporting this piece of legislation at this second reading, and I\u2019ll iron out why, if I may. We had a very collegial relationship in the Primary Production Committee when this piece of legislation was heard, and we had dozens\u2014dozens and dozens\u2014of submitters come in: coastal fishermen, recreational fishermen, blue-water fishermen, and coastal\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5b696df8dd7491384cac75142a649b6\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Fishers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f145661c5e6403088edc528577dd833\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014fishers\u2014yeah, thank you very much. There\u2019s a real problem, and I\u2019ll iron it out, if I may, with new section 72A in clause 14. It\u2019s been well canvassed that this is very, very problematic and, if I may\u2014I\u2019m sorry for the interjection; I didn\u2019t make sense of it over there\u2014there\u2019s a real problem with the coastal commercial fishing fleet and the blue-water fleet. If I can highlight the reality of it, the simple fact is that the coastal commercial fishing fleet often catches a plethora of species: mid-water fish, surface fish, deep-water reef fish. Anecdotally, we heard multiple submitters say, \u201CHey look, in this instance, mid-column fish\u201D\u2014things like mullet and kahawai\u2014\u201Care being caught in the same net. One is targeted and one is not.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003ENow, just very quickly as we go through this, new section 72A speaks to treating bycatch, and it\u2019s not monetised in as much the same way as high-value species. If I may read it out, it\u2019s having discard of 50 fish, more or less, having a penalty regime attached to them. In that regard, if I may, that would speak to pilchards having the same penalty regime attached to them as 50 kingfish. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EThe industry has gone to massive lengths to try and minimise and reduce unwanted bycatch. Six-inch mesh has gone to a 5-inch and then it\u2019s gone to a 4-inch, the design of the mesh has changed from a diamond to a square, corkline technology has improved massively, leadline technology has improved massively, and yet there is still unwanted bycatch. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EWhen it talks to landing and discards, deck wash\u2014now, I just want to try and conceptualise this for people who have never spent any time at sea on a boat. You\u2019ve got a 2-tonne net, potentially, in the blue-water fleet coming aboard with a tonne or half a tonne of fish inside of it, and there will be subsequent species that are caught. The technology is emerging. We absolutely agree\u2014and this is logical, and all the submitters agree\u2014that the likes of the camera roll-out was beneficial to the industry, and, by virtue of that, they could then understand the health of the ecosystem and the biomass. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EBut as proposed\u2014and I want to speak to the practicality, not the political theatrics\u2014this is a really difficult problem for coastal fisherman, and it was canvassed by Joseph Mooney earlier. Fuel costs are monumentally more than they were 12 or 24 months ago, and that\u2019s one thing. A lot of the seasonal staff that came into, especially, the blue-water fleet\u2014this industry and these commercial operators couldn\u2019t get staff. Then you\u2019re throwing this at them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EThe reality is that there is a 13,000-strong part of society\u2014employees, staff\u2014that goes into this and that is part of this industry, and it\u2019s worth billions. There is emerging technology, but I go back to the practical application of the Fisheries Act as it is being proposed. Landings and discard rules, a penalty regime\u2014and let\u2019s read it out, if we can. It speaks to discard of 50 or more fish being faced with a $100,000 fine, and fishers that offend two or more times in a three-year period could receive a maximum $250,000 fine. Well, gracious me, how does that work if you\u2019re a set-netter commercial fisherman on an inshore fleet? Are you going to be prosecuted for the one offence on which perhaps you haven\u2019t had your day in court? You go on about your business, you\u2019re out fishing again, and there\u2019s a subsequent bycatch of 50 fish or more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003ENow, I don\u2019t know if anyone understands the mullet fishery\u2014yellow-eyed mullet. That\u2019s a mid-water to upper-water column fish species. Inadvertently, there are commercial fishermen that catch them for the sake of selling them to the bait fish market. They have bycatch of kahawai. Instantly, there\u2019s potentiality for a massive prosecutorial reality there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003ENow, try and reconcile this. The industry has gone through rigorous change in mesh size, floating cork development, and leadline so they can actually set these nets at different places in the water column. This is the kind of innovation that this industry is constantly seeking to improve on, and yet here we have an exponentially ramped-up prosecutorial reality for 50 or more bait fish being treated as if they\u2019re high-value southern bluefin tuna. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EBased on this sort of logic\u2014or the lack of it, I think, is the point\u2014ACT won\u2019t be supporting this bill at the second reading. We want to give this industry some surety to invest in the future, because at the end of the day, most of the concern is around table fish\u2014or what you might call exotic fish species that are, basically, sold to domestic consumers here in New Zealand\u2014being heavily predated or fished out. Again, the technology is emerging. Thus far, the industry has done marvellously well, I think, to adopt the narrative of having cameras on boats to further alleviate bycatch. I don\u2019t think that, as proposed, the penalty regime we are being confronted with here is anywhere feasible based on the technology as it sits. We cannot support this bill at this second reading. Thank you, Madam Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00224e5a04823dd84f499adb32e6178c4eef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e5a04823dd84f499adb32e6178c4eef\u0022\u003ERACHEL BROOKING (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E \u8C22\u8C22, Madam Speaker, and talofa. I\u2019m very pleased to be speaking on this Fisheries Amendment Bill, a bill that\u2019s trying to incentivise the change of fishing behaviour to target fish rather than have them being discarded. As the previous speaker, Mark Cameron, was talking about, one of the ways of doing that is this graduated offences and penalties regime, and I want to spend a moment talking about that. At the moment, under the current Act, penalties are very high and so it seems unfair to prosecute those low-level offences, and so there\u2019s been an aim to have proportionate offences for more effective and frequent enforcement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWhat happens at clause 20 of the bill, which amends the penalties section at section 252 of the Act, is this then refers back to section 72\u2014that\u2019s amended by clause 13 of this bill. What the Primary Production Committee has done at that clause 13 is separate out the \u201C50 or fewer\u201D and the \u201Cmore than 50\u201D offences that the previous speaker referred to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EClause 20, the penalties section, has three important different parts: one, at new subsection (3A), is that where there are two or more offences within three years, then that $250,000 maximum fine applies for your second offence; at new subsection (5A), that 50 or fewer can result in a $10,000 maximum offence; and then in the middle, at new section 252(5)(ba), is that more than 50 can result in the $100,000 which is in the current Act. So that\u2019s how this this graduated offences and penalties plays out within the bill, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u0022c82b5297bc964e8f896082721908d563\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c82b5297bc964e8f896082721908d563\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. The National Party will support this bill, but I have some concerns about the nature of the legislation. I think the first one is what the ACT Party just raised, rightly, around the 50 fish and the size of those fish depending on, you know, the type of fishery and what the fishing process involved is. It just doesn\u2019t make a lot of sense on a practical level, and so certainly that\u2019s an issue that needs to be addressed, because it just doesn\u2019t make any sense on a practical level.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe other side of it is, I want to just draw a parallel to the dairy industry, for example, around the discarding of dead animals. Basically, in this process here, you\u2019re going to have to bring back everything on the boat. That\u2019s essentially what they\u2019re saying, and that\u2019s what the Minister wants to see. So it\u2019s a sledgehammer approach; it\u2019s not taking into account any practical nature of it. The Labour members shake their heads, but that\u2019s what the bill says. You bring it back, and there are very small exemptions but, effectively, you have to bring it back. And then what\u2019s going to happen to it? It\u2019s like a dead cow; you have to pay to get rid of that, don\u2019t you? You have to pay 80 bucks to JD Wallace to get rid of that, and that\u2019s going up every day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ESo what\u2019s going to happen here is that basically that dead fish that you\u2019re bringing back, it\u2019s not going to be a marketable product to that extent. It\u2019s going to be expensive for small fishing companies. It\u2019s going to be a real impost on them. The big guys will work out a way of doing it, and they\u2019ll have connections, and they\u2019ll make approaches with the companies that will use that product, but the really small fishers are going to find it hard, and they\u2019re going to be stuck with all this dead fish that has to go into landfill, which is exactly what the Green Party doesn\u2019t want to see happen. I don\u2019t think anybody potentially sees that that is a better result than that fish being at sea, so I\u2019m not sure if the practicalities of this bill will actually work. First of all, you\u2019ve got an issue around that size of fish, and taking into account the comparable species, but also the practical reality of what actually do you do with the dead fish that comes back. There\u2019s not going to be a market for it. The Green Party said there could be other uses for it. People aren\u2019t going to be buying dried fish that come off a boat like that, are they? It\u2019s not what you\u2019re going to be buying at the supermarket. So its potential problem is that it goes into landfill. That\u2019s the reality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221846d2da90e647079c250da74239d835\u0022\u003EIan McKelvie\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s better for your dead cow, Bennett.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7bb1eefc9d24afcafbcf3be0b27e4fa\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Mr McKelvie would like to sell a dead cow, but I don\u2019t think you can get away with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s one of those things that is a very delicate area. Everybody wants to protect the fisheries. Everybody wants to see New Zealand fisheries thrive and be a valuable resource for commercial and non-commercial use; there\u2019s no doubt about that. That\u2019s a given, and that\u2019s why we have a quota system and all those things. But we also need to realise that this is not a simple industry, where a Wellington politician can say, \u201CAnything that\u2019s caught can come back.\u201D, like David Parker does, and think that\u2019s the practical reality of how you do business. The reality is that there will be bycatch, and 50 is not much, and the exceptions are very difficult to make a reality. So it\u2019s going to be a situation where I think you\u2019ll have the fishing industry come back and knock on Parliament\u2019s door within a year or two and say that this is a bill that has demonstrably caused a lot of grief, especially to smaller fishers. You might want to have an industry dominated by a couple of big fishing companies, but I think that most industries in New Zealand are better when there\u2019s some small business in there as well. If we don\u2019t have that variation, we don\u2019t have the next generation of fishers coming through that are actually more proactive in wanting to look after the fishery and that. So I think that there\u2019s some work that still needs to be done on this, and the Minister should take that on board and relook at some of those issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00229bc9082e4e874747bcb05b1bd17c0c78\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229bc9082e4e874747bcb05b1bd17c0c78\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: I call Angie Warren-Clark\u2014five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022 data-id=\u002238318fe801d54dfa812601eb42a39669\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002238318fe801d54dfa812601eb42a39669\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E \u8C22\u8C22, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a great pleasure to stand and talk on the Fisheries Amendment Bill\u2014not a select committee that I\u2019ve sat on, in terms of the legislation, but I have kept a real interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EI wanted to just start by correcting the record in terms of when we talk about fisheries and people out fishing, the easiest term is \u201Cfisher\u201D. So that\u2019s for those of us women who fish, and there are many in the industry out there. So that\u2019s just a clarification; let\u2019s try and use non-sexist language in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003ESo, secondly, I\u2019d also just like to talk on one particular part, in terms of the catch. Basically, what this bill is looking to do is around selective targeting. It\u2019s incentivising and supporting our fishers out there to use better methods to catch fish. Now, this small fisher that we know is using the technology, or using fishing technology that really supports a sustainable catch method because they cannot afford the large parts of technology out there. So this piece of legislation will hopefully change the way that we move about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EIt is also really important that we think about fish in the context of the world. Recently, I was in Malaysia and I looked at the type of fish that that country eats. Never underestimate what fish we have and can eat in this country. I think that that\u2019s where the secondary market comes in, and I think that this is about change to an ecosystem model, as opposed to a high-grade model where we just take a very selective amount of fish, mouli up the rest, and throw it over the side. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022 data-id=\u002251b4d5039b5e4777998abead937e8126\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002251b4d5039b5e4777998abead937e8126\u0022\u003ET\u0100MATI COFFEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It seems as though everybody in this House has got a sustainability story when it comes to our fishing stocks, and I just want to reminisce about the time that I went to the Chatham Islands with my good colleague Paul Eagle. It is in his electorate, and we got the privilege of going over there. What I found was that whilst the rocks were flush with p\u0101ua and the space around the island was filled with crayfish, actually, they used to have a booming scallop industry there. The scallops are long gone from the area, and they are poorer for that\u2014poorer because they\u2019ve realised that, actually, they didn\u2019t manage the sustainability of the scallop stocks around the Chatham Islands, and now they\u2019re a distant memory. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003ESo everything that we do has to be set up around the sustainability of our fisheries. It is a grave concern. We do have climate change\u2014it has arrived\u2014as well. The industry is under increased scrutiny. So we need to make sure that we\u2019re doing the best that we possibly can for the sustainability of our fish stocks if we want them to last on into the future and if we don\u2019t want to have more stories like the scallop industry, or lack of, in the Chatham Islands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EThis Fisheries Amendment Bill is a really good bill that brings all of those settings into the new age. This isn\u2019t the end, though. We\u2019re going to have to keep adjusting the settings when it comes to the sustainability of our fishing stocks now and into the future. So I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022 data-id=\u00225ac925d32ed748319b51cdf13547844f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ac925d32ed748319b51cdf13547844f\u0022\u003ETODD MULLER (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. One of the perspectives that has been missing in this debate and indeed the report back from our select committee to this House from our deliberations on the Fisheries Amendment Bill is that there was no agreement at all across the various stakeholders who presented on the bill, and that gave a very clear voice to the fact that issues relating to our oceans and fisheries are some of the most contested in this country. We had impassioned submissions from commercial fishers and particularly those, as my colleague Mark Cameron from ACT mentioned, inshore fishers who are owner-operators who are particularly concerned that the rules around landing and discards along with cameras could ultimately lead them to decide that it is all too hard and that they have to walk away from a sector and an industry that in many cases has been in their lives and their families\u2019 lives for generations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EWe had recreational fishers who saw this bill as a Government-inspired attempt to partner with the commercial sector to ensure that more fish were harvested at the expense of recreational fishers. We had iwi representatives who said that in no way did this bill address the fact that from their perspective the primary relationship with respect to any issues relating to oceans and fisheries was one of the Crown and iwi and that a consultative framework was missing. Then we had the NGOs who said that this bill will see the treasured taonga of New Zealand, our exclusive economic zone, further threatened, further put under pressure, at the expense of future generations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EAll four stakeholders said that this bill does not meet their expectations, with the exception, I would argue, of, broadly, the seafood industry, who has been working for years through successive Governments to try and get a framework that was more relevant than the framework that exists today. One that creates some flexibility and surety for their business as to what they should bring back and account for\u2014not only under their annual catch entitlement but what they needed to bring back as opposed to discard to the sea. One in which the rules around how to manage a particular fishery, a particular species, could have some clear framework that could be agreed up front, so that when the fishing stock changed over time they didn\u2019t need to go through an incredibly laborious process of ensuring that every one of those stakeholders was in alignment before the Government or the Minister of the time made the change. And, of course, what was outlined to us at the select committee was that you will never get that alignment. The degree of dysfunction and disconnection between those particular parties is at record levels.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003ETherefore this bill is a step forward in and of itself but it doesn\u2019t in any way deal with the fundamental tension that exists in our oceans and fisheries space. Now, the Government has set up, for the first time, a Minister for Oceans and Fisheries, Minister Parker, but there is an inherent tension in the way the Minister delivers against that mandate. On the oceans side there are people such as the very respected, in my opinion, Eugenie Sage from the Green Party who gives voice to the concerns of many in the New Zealand that the pressures on our oceans generally are not being appropriately focused on, and then the same Minister has to reflect on the fact that we have a $1.6 billion seafood export industry. It is a big part of our primary sector. We deliver\u2014not only to New Zealand but to the world\u2014food that is highly valued, and somehow he has to manage a quota management system that reflects on the interests of M\u0101ori, ensures that we don\u2019t over fish, ensures that customary rights are protected, and ensures that over time the oceans in this country are improved and enhanced. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EAnd so this bill, rather than dealing with those inherent tensions, adds more layers of framework and rules and scaffolding to what I would argue is a fundamentally dysfunctional system. Now, the National Party will support the bill because landings and discards and particularly, actually, a framework to get pre-set decision rules with respect to how you approach a particular species makes sense. But the rules in here, when we tried to grapple with it as a select committee, were mind-numbing. And I have to say, with respect, that we\u2019re getting only two-minute contributions on behalf of the Government side on a bill that has got this degree of complexity. I think I can speak generally on behalf of all colleagues across the House who sat on that committee\u2014and we were constantly having to use every bit of our brains to try and navigate this\u2014when I say that to now listen to two-minute speeches that sort of tip over the top of it, I think, does a disservice to the sector and actually to the bill that we are trying to progress. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcdf81115e19466f9a474f5743f62ab7\u0022\u003ET\u0101mati Coffey\u003C/span\u003E: You agreed; we agreed. Let\u2019s go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f2a69f68f6f47c3a6b71130e40a2889\u0022\u003ETODD MULLER\u003C/span\u003E: I was at every single one of those\u2014thank you, Mr Coffey\u2014every single one of them. And it deserves more reflection on the challenges of trying to get the balance right. Now, I think where the balance has been broadly struck is the concept, as I said earlier, of a pre-set decision framework across the various species of the quota management system\u2014makes sense. If you can create a sort of parameter in which all the players can operate and operate in a way that is more flexible and able to respond more deftly to data\u2014which tends to turn up in sort of clumps\u2014around the effectiveness and the healthiness of that particular species, that makes sense conceptually. But what I noticed as we walked through this process was it was just layer after layer of additionality of more process, of more considerations, and of more decisions being handed, essentially, back to the officials and the Minister to have to grapple with. So all the rules associated with the pre-set decision rules across all the species that currently sit in the quota management system, that sits in front of us for four years; all the rules around landings and discards and what counts and what doesn\u2019t and what\u2019s survivability. All of that has to be dealt with species by species over the next four years. And you could actually see it, frankly, in the faces of the officials when they were putting on a good face that, \u201CYes, we\u2019ll be able to manage this.\u201D Frankly, they can\u2019t manage the current obligations on them, in all honesty, based on not a function of competency; it\u2019s a function of resources and what\u2019s expected of them. And we have layered up even more on Fisheries New Zealand over the next four years in partnership with the sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EOur view is that, on balance, where there is a choice between pragmatism and being pure, the National Party signals very clearly\u2014we have an expectation that the officials and the Minister default to what is practical, and you have had good contributions from this side as to some of the challenges, particularly for inshore fishers, of getting that balance right. We intend to focus on that very significantly. We have three Supplementary Order Papers that we will talk to, which I think add greater clarity to the balance that is sought by this bill. But I remain disappointed that the great opportunity of trying to genuinely create a framework that tries to put in alignment those tensions between commercial and recreation and customary, and the NGOs who want us to essentially look at a postcard. That has not been resolved, and until it is resolved, the great potential of our moana stays unrealised. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022 data-id=\u002297396ff753064c3eb18ceb1dbdc2845f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002297396ff753064c3eb18ceb1dbdc2845f\u0022\u003EANAHILA KANONGATA\u2018A-SUISUIKI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E \u8C22\u8C22.Talofa, e te Mana Whakaw\u0101. Always an honour and a privilege to stand to make a contribution in this House, and in this case, the Fisheries Amendment Bill. I would like to acknowledge Minister Parker for his leadership in shepherding one of many important bills into the House. I hear that it was bipartisan select committee, so I\u2019d like to acknowledge the leadership of Jo Luxton in chairing this committee. I want to thank the submitters for all their submissions into this bill. Can I remind the House that this Fisheries Amendment Bill would amend the Fisheries Act 1996, and that the amendments proposed will modernise and strengthen the New Zealand fisheries management system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003EThe bill would do five things. It will empower the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries to establish pre-set decision rules for sustainable measures. Secondly, it would amend the commercial fishing rules related to the landing and returning of fish, and empower the Minister to require or permit fish to be returned to sea. It will introduce a graduated offences and penalties regime, and lastly, it will extend the requirements for the use of on-board camera monitoring to include fishing and fishing-related activities, including sorting, processing, and discarding of fish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003EMy favourite catch of this bill is in Part 1, clause 4, amending section 2(1), where it is about the substantive provisions and it talks about what actually would happen about the returning of the fish, how cameras would be installed, and how data would then be reviewed after it has captured. I don\u2019t want this to be the one that gets away, let\u2019s reel it in. I commend this bill to the House. M\u0101l\u014D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002201435c9337f64ae482bdeba8c3aa70df\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Fisheries Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 110\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; New Zealand National 33; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 10. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000071\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228d8bbc735ae64187bfb4c71f63ec8629\u0022\u003EScreen Industry Workers Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f1e108963bc74b709e510230b48b069d\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1aaa442d3e141689633ad101bf8348c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1aaa442d3e141689633ad101bf8348c\u0022\u003EHon POTO WILLIAMS (Minister of Conservation)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety: I present a legislative statement on the Screen Industry Workers Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa0c85e51f164de686994022fff85727\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afb91d81cbb543f38c79ce345c8a8257\u0022\u003EHon POTO WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: \u8C22\u8C22\uFF0CMadam Speaker. I move, That the Screen Industry Workers Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EFirstly, I\u2019d like to thank the officials, the clerks, and the select committee members who worked on this bill, and those members who submitted and presented to the committee. When people talk about Aotearoa New Zealand\u2019s screen industry, they mention our breathtaking landscapes, they\u2019ll recall spectacular visual effects and digital artistry, they\u2019ll think of strange and fascinating fictional worlds beyond our own. What they don\u2019t see are the people behind the creations. They don\u2019t see that it is our talented crew who make these impossible shoots possible\u2014our writers who tell our stories to the world, and our actors who deliver authentic and moving performances. They don\u2019t see the combinations of creative vision and logistical nous required when producers bring stories to life.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EThe success of our screen industry reflects the quality of work that goes into making a production. The bill honours that work and delivers on a commitment to restore collective bargaining rights to the screen industry. Those rights were removed when the previous Government legislated under urgency to remove film production workers from the legal definition of an \u201Cemployee\u201D, known as the \u201CHobbit law\u201D. For more than a decade, film production workers have been prevented from testing their employment status to gain access to fundamental employment protections. As of 2018, there are 15,000 people doing screen production and post-production work. Of these workers, 85 percent\u201412,800\u2014were hired contractors. This means an industry where the majority of workers cannot bargain collectively or access minimum employment entitlements such as the minimum wage. Most screen production workers\u2019 median monthly income earnings are under $4,000. Workers are offered contracts on a \u201Ctake it or leave it\u201D basis, demonstrating the imbalance in bargaining power between them and the people who hire them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EIn 2018, we asked the industry to find a new way forward for themselves and we set up the Film Industry Working Group. We asked them whether they could design a system that would allow workers to bargain collectively while giving production companies the certainty they need. The Film Industry Working Group didn\u2019t just manage to design a new model, they unanimously recommended to Government to adopt it. Their model represented their shared vision for a thriving industry and forms the basis of the Screen Industry Workers Bill. We want our screen industry to flourish and to empower workers and the people who hire them, referred to as \u201Cengagers\u201D. The Screen Industry Workers Bill will help to achieve this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EThe legislation has several components. First, it creates new rules for individual contracts in the screen industry\u2014these are agreements between the workers and the engagers. The bill will give all workers the opportunity to negotiate their contracts and requires that certain types of terms be included in all contracts. It prevents contracts from being terminated just because workers exercise a right they have under law or their contract. Next, the bill provides a framework for collective bargaining in the screen industry. There are two types of bargaining that can take place under this legislation. The first is occupational bargaining, which would result in new minimum terms and conditions of work across the industry. These minimum terms can be built on through the second type of collective bargaining known as \u201Centerprise bargaining\u201D. This type of bargaining can take place within single productions or companies. As with any other collective relationship, problems may arise in contracting relationships or during collective bargaining. In these situations, the legislation allows parties in the screen industry to use dispute resolution processes that already exist in the employment system. This legislation is novel and has been designed based on the unique features of the screen industry. For this reason, the bill requires a review to be started before the fifth anniversary of its commencement. This will allow for reflection on whether this new workplace relations regime for the screen industry is working well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EFinally, I\u2019d like to address the misguided belief the Opposition has about the bill. Members of the Opposition have previously argued that the bill creates a less flexible labour market. This concern stems from the mistaken belief that occupational contracts will remove the right for individual workers and engagers to agree their own terms. This is incorrect. Individual workers and engagers can still negotiate contract terms. However, they cannot go beyond any minimum terms set by the industry through collective bargaining. This is appropriate because it represents the industry\u2019s articulation of minimum working standards. This is not a model that the Government alone could have devised and I want to acknowledge the Film Industry Working Group and other stakeholders in the screen industry. They deserve recognition and credit for their work on this bill since 2018.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0e0c86e-e14d-4daa-9bc8-1b5a3d7defeb\u0022\u003EUltimately, the bill represents compromise and a collective vision, and it\u2019s an example of what can be achieved through meaningful and respectful tripartite processes, and when workers, employers, and the Government come together. The legislation provides the groundwork for a new era in screen industry. As our screen industry continues to grow, it will help to ensure we aren\u2019t just known for great works we produce, but that our screen industry is also known as a great place to work. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00225af315632efe469088037007ab522ef9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225af315632efe469088037007ab522ef9\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u002289662412e694416bacf9c538b9b696f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289662412e694416bacf9c538b9b696f0\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. The National Party will not be supporting this legislation and will continue to oppose it. We\u2019re at the third reading of the Screen Industry Workers Bill\u2014I suppose just another example of a Government that never seems to be interested in thinking about our international competitiveness and how we make a living in this country. Here we are at a time, we look around the world\u2014a dangerous time geopolitically, but also very treacherous conditions economically, seeing dollars plunging and falling, slow growth, high inflation, cost of living pressures. Under all that, the general conclusion that most sensible people would come to is that this is a time when we need to be concentrating on building our economic strength as a country, looking for new ways to succeed internationally and globally, focusing on our international competitiveness and on our productivity so that we\u2019re fit to fight, so that we can foot it with the best in the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EBut instead of doing that, what we see time and time again from this Government is an obsession or a focus on helping out their friends in the union and adding costs and complications wherever you go. We\u2019re in the middle of the fair pay agreements crisis situation, which is going to introduce an enormous amount of rigidity and complications to our labour market relations at a time when we need to be more flexible and agile and responsive than ever, and this legislation, dealing with a specific area in the screen industry, is of the same ilk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s just go back\u2014it\u2019s slapdash legislation in the whole approach to it, because it was introduced by Iain Lees-Galloway. I don\u2019t know if people can remember Iain Lees-Galloway; he was an interesting rooster. The former Minister came in, introduced this in a flurry in early 2017\u2014no, was it 2020; 2020, I think it was\u2014and then we rushed off to a select committee, in a shortened period of the select committee so we didn\u2019t hear from everybody as long as we would\u2019ve liked, because this was a great, urgent thing that Mr Iain Lees-Galloway was going to introduce and do, even though there was no great problem that they were trying to fix. The legislative arrangement that the previous National Government had come to in 2010 to keep the Hobbit films happening in New Zealand, which most people enjoyed\u2014it was great entertainment; we loved it. The industry\u2019s working pretty well. But this manufactured crisis, a little bit like this kind of manufactured crisis that we have in why we need to merge Radio New Zealand (RNZ) and TVNZ\u2014nobody can quite understand why; it\u2019s not obvious to anybody why we need to be doing this, why this is a big focus. But, anyway, that\u2019s $370 million - odd, they\u2019ll just do that; why not? This legislation, again, you know\u2014what\u2019s the great crisis that they\u2019re needing to deal with? Nothing, really, other than that the unions want it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo Iain Lees-Galloway, he brought it in, rushed through the select committee stage, and then, suddenly, woomph\u2014it just fell into the freezer and they forgot about it for three years. It was during the period of Kris Faafoi\u2019s long snooze, when nothing much happened. He was resting. He was recuperating and focusing on other things. Nothing happened. Lost interest, lost his way\u2014a bit like how they lost their way on law and order and a whole bunch of things. Everything just sort of slid for a little while.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EAnd then what happens is we have the re-emergence of an ideologue of the left\u2014Michael Wood. He took up the role, and he, of course, is very determined to push through everything he possibly can. He came over the horizon there, ready to defend and protect and strengthen union rights at every step. So we\u2019ve got the fair pay agreement ripping through the House\u2014again, a solution looking for a problem, adding costs, adding rigidity, making it more difficult, particularly, actually, for small businesses. Great for the big businesses that get to construct all this sort of stuff; very difficult for the small businesses. So he\u2019s pushing all that through, and at the same time this piece of legislation is coming through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EAnd it comes at a difficult time for the industry, of course, because they\u2019ve been through, like everybody else, extraordinary difficulties around the COVID restrictions, which have seen us lose a number of productions; big difficulties around the lack of immigration, or the difficult immigration system that we\u2019ve got\u2014this Government\u2019s determined to make it difficult for people to get in. So, like every industry, they\u2019re struggling to get people to turn up and to be the workers. So that\u2019s complicated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThey\u2019re also trying to figure out what this TVNZ-RNZ merger means for them and their industry. So there\u2019s a lot of complication around that. And they\u2019re also struggling with overall costs, like every\u2014you know, whether it\u2019s the fuel that they need to get the buses and trucks to the production site, whether it\u2019s the chicken sandwiches; everything\u2019s more expensive. So they\u2019re dealing with all that, and they\u2019re also trying to navigate their way in a highly internationally competitive industry. So when all that is going on, what is the last thing they need? The last thing they need is a completely different new industrial relations process which introduces collective bargaining to an industry that has never had that before and has to set up a whole lot of new procedures. The poor old Screen Production and Development Association of NZ has to get into negotiating around collective agreements. There\u2019s all sorts of additional work, complication, difficulty, and opportunities for tension and discord within the industry\u2014a return, potentially, to the real discord that we had back in 2010 when a bunch of Australian unionists came over and stirred things up. So that is the real risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo, many people are asking, \u201CWhat on earth are we doing this for?\u201D, and the only obvious answer is that Michael Wood, being an ideologue, being very keen to do everything he can to strengthen the power of the unions, is determined to do this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo we don\u2019t support it. We don\u2019t think it will help. We don\u2019t see the burning platform here. All we see is it\u2019s just another example of a Government that does not seem to recognise the relationship between adding costs, regulatory uncertainty and confusion, and extra layers of complication\u2014how that flows through to the cost structure of our society, which feeds through, ultimately, to cost of living pressures but also a lack of international competitiveness for our country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EAnd, you know, you can roll your eyes on the other side of the House, you can be dismissive of it, but ultimately, as a small trading nation, our international competitiveness matters because we\u2019re a long way away from the rest of the world. If you\u2019re looking at it from the point of view of Hollywood or somewhere else\u2014\u201CWhere are we going to invest our money? Are we going to do it here or there or elsewhere?\u201D\u2014New Zealand is not the easiest option. We\u2019re a long way away. We\u2019re a long way\u2014yes, we do have pretty mountains. We\u2019re not the only country in the world that has pretty mountains, I\u2019m bound to point out. We\u2019re not the only country in the world that has nice forests and lakes. There are other places that have nice forests and lakes as well, and they have snowy mountains there. We seem to be somewhat complacent about how we operate, in the world that we operate. It is a highly competitive world, and we need to be doing everything we can to ensure our industries are agile and able to respond.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ENow, we\u2019ve had a pretty successful industry in that sense, and this bill won\u2019t help\u2014in fact, it\u2019ll make it harder. I don\u2019t think the purpose of Government should be to make things more difficult for industries in New Zealand who are trying to foot it with the best in the world and to provide opportunities for New Zealanders, and, of course, who work hard to provide the entertainment that we all look forward to, in an industry that gives New Zealanders the thrills that they have and the stories that they like to celebrate and everything that is positive about the screen industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo, you know, we here on this side of the House stand behind the industry. We want them to succeed; we want them to do well. We want them to be internationally competitive, and we want them to succeed and continue to entertain and to delight us. What we don\u2019t want to do is make life more difficult for them, and this bill will do precisely that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022 data-id=\u002243696bdcc3f94a4ea94b67278ffae110\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243696bdcc3f94a4ea94b67278ffae110\u0022\u003EMARJA LUBECK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. You\u2019ve just go to love it when the Opposition talks about rushing through legislation and pushing through laws and bills, when, in fact, this particular bill reverses the fundamental employment protections that the National Government in 2010 took away from workers in the screen industry. They took away fundamental rights, which are recognised all through international law, to bargain collectively. So that\u2019s the hypocrisy of the Opposition for you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EThey\u2019re also out of touch with the extensive process that this bill went through from the start. The screen industry was completely involved. They came up with practical solutions that actually would restore their workers\u2019 rights, as well as, at the same time, still reflecting the needs of the industry. This bill implements unanimously agreed recommendations from the Film Industry Working Group, which consists of industry guilds, the dreaded \u201Cunion\u201D word, production companies, the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions, and Business New Zealand. The only party here, in this argument, that is not agreeing to this bill is the National Party. Every other stakeholder has said, as it says in our department report, \u201CWe don\u2019t support the status quo.\u201D Every submitter has not supported the status quo. It\u2019s only the National Party who doesn\u2019t want this bill to get through. What this bill does is, basically, reinstate the right for workers to get together to talk about protections, to have minimum wage protections, to be protected from bullying, to have their holidays, to have their health and safety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003EAnd just one more comment: when Mr Paul Goldsmith said, \u201CWhy on earth are we doing it?\u201D, I remember, in his second reading speech, he said the industry is in increasingly good shape. Well, this is the shape it\u2019s in: median monthly earnings for contractors versus workers have just gone down\u2014have gone down, down, down. The top rate now was the bottom rate 20 years ago. That\u2019s the shape the industry is in. That\u2019s why we\u2019re making these changes, and the real danger, actually, of the National Party not agreeing to this bill is that the certainty this bill brings, which the industry needs, is actually undermined by the National Party being the only stakeholder in this process not agreeing to this bill. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00222e975d26a10c4100847e601c0dd9ff61\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e975d26a10c4100847e601c0dd9ff61\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Well, the speaker that has just resumed her seat, Marja Lubeck, represents, very starkly and clearly, the fundamental ideological difference between the socialist left that is dominated by union activists, and those of us on the right side of the politics in New Zealand who understand, treasure, and value the rights and freedoms of individuals to negotiate their own terms of employment and agreements with their employer in a way that provides flexibility, certainty, and, most importantly, in a way that provides economic goodwill and growth for us as a nation. My\u00A0colleague the Hon Paul Goldsmith, in his very good contribution on this, the third reading of the Screen Industry Workers Bill, made a number of those exact points. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThis is a piece of legislation that one can\u2019t help but feel is a piece of legislation that has only been pushed through the Parliament as a result of a new Minister determined to exert his ideological views about the roles of trade unions on New Zealand workers, in a way that his predecessor didn\u2019t. His predecessor Kristopher Faafoi had some very good common-sense things, and he managed to put this piece of legislation on the backburner, because he knew and understood that it would create problems, that it would have a negative impact on our economy, and it would be very bad, actually, for workers in the film sector. What we\u2019ve heard today just confirms all that stuff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EOf course, the current Minister and the speaker that\u2019s just resumed her seat both came to this Parliament by way of trades hall\u2014union representatives, union delegates. One only has to remember, to understand the philosophy and motivation for this piece of legislation, a little bit of the history of labour parties around the world\u2014of course, back in the 1800s, when there was a need and a time for trade unions, when they were relevant, when they were coherent, meaningful, and modern, there was a need. That time has long since passed. What happened was that the trade union movement around the world established itself in a way that ultimately decided that, sooner or later, they needed parliamentary representation if they were going to make the changes that they needed. So labour parties sprung up in places like the United Kingdom, in Canada, Australia, and, of course, in New Zealand. The parliamentary Labour Party, effectively, became the political wing of the trade union movement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo many people, today, often forget that history, they forget the connections, they forget the motivation\u2014they don\u2019t necessarily join up the dots that see a bill like this coming to the Parliament that will be a handbrake on innovation, a handbrake on enterprise, and a handbrake on economic development in the international film sector, for which New Zealand has a very proud, and rightly proud, record of magnificent success.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EMy colleague the Hon Paul Goldsmith made the very good point that New Zealand is not the only country in the world with beautiful landscapes, with snow-capped mountains, with blue skies, lovely lakes, and lovely vistas. The people who make movies around the world are competitive creatures and they will make movies in environments where the regulatory and legal opportunities exist for them to do so successfully. It\u2019s not like there\u2019s any shortage of people wanting to participate. When the National Government passed what has become affectionately referred to as the \u201CHobbit law\u201D, a massive freeing up of opportunity\u2014not only for those businesses but for the individuals who were engaged in it, who were successfully employed, who were contracting, who were earning very good money, who would otherwise not have been doing so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo this is a piece legislation that was originally promised by a fellow by the name of Iain Lees-Galloway. Most people in the Chamber probably\u2014in fact, certainly the Labour backbench\u2014weren\u2019t in Parliament when this fellow, Lees-Galloway, was here, it was so long ago. He promised\u2014in fact, Labour promised, back in 2017 at the election, that they would pass this piece of legislation in their first hundred days. Well, their five years of failure is stark, not only on this piece of legislation but it\u2019s stark in every other aspect of Labour Government\u2019s policy initiatives. Five years of complete and utter failure\u2014inability to understand the basic mechanism of a thriving, flourishing, and prosperous economy. Our total economy is now paying the price for that lack of understanding, that lack of knowledge, and the stubborn determination that the parliamentary Labour Party has in following through on their promises to the trade union movement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo this is a piece of legislation that unions don\u2019t like. The reason they don\u2019t like it is because, currently, there is virtually no collective bargaining in the film industry, as the majority of film production workers are actually contractors. That\u2019s a situation that suits the contractors, it suits the employers, and there\u2019s no shortage of people wanting to take up the flexibility that comes with being a contractor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ENow, I know that the Government fundamentally don\u2019t like contractors. The reason they don\u2019t like contractors is because independent contractors don\u2019t become members of a trade union\u2014they don\u2019t become a member of a trade union. Of course, since the establishment of the Employment Contracts Act back in the 1990s, trade union membership has dropped significantly and steadily. The reason it\u2019s dropped significantly and steadily is because most New Zealanders don\u2019t find relevance from being a member of a trade union. They don\u2019t find any benefit from paying their $500, $600, $700, or $800 a year membership to be a member of a magical collective that is somehow going to further stifle their employment and entrepreneurial opportunities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo unions don\u2019t like the prospect of people having freedoms, of people having free choice, of people negotiating terms and conditions with their employer, and they want everybody to be pigeon-holed, to be boxed in together as a unit of labour, if you like, a unit of production. But we on this side of the House see things in fundamentally different terms. We see people as individuals, as people who are able and capable of determining their own employment arrangements that benefit most effectively from the flexibility that comes with a nimble, flexible approach to the economy, and to employment conditions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EAll around the world, other countries have looked at our industrial relations environmental landscape and they\u2019ve said, \u201CBy crikey, over the last 30 years, since the 1990s, New Zealand has got it right.\u201D But since this Labour Government came into Parliament, or came into power, they\u2019ve determinedly tried to change every single aspect and turn it back to the \u201Cgood old days\u201D, as they see it, of union dominance, union control, and decisions being made behind closed doors at trades hall. The days of that, I thought, were long gone. I thought that that was long, long over. But the current Minister, of course, is a Minister who comes from a trade union background. He was an organiser in the FinSec union, and I guess that, probably, after the next election, that\u2019s where he will go back to\u2014to a trade union of a similar sort, because there\u2019s going to be a whole lot of those Labour members, who came from that union delegate role, who will be looking for new jobs after the next election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo they\u2019re trying to use their absolute majority in this Parliament, at the moment, to pass this piece of legislation. They\u2019ll pass it, and then it will be up to a future Government to have a look at it, to determine how unhelpful it\u2019s been, how impossibly difficult it\u2019s made employers\u2019 opportunities, and how little work is being done in terms of film production in New Zealand, because those companies will have simply taken their capital, their enterprise, and their imagination and innovation to another country. It will be New Zealand\u2014it will be New Zealanders\u2014that lose out as a result of that ideological change that the Labour Party and their union friends seem so determined to foist upon hard-working, innovative, imaginative, and creative New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EWell, we on this side of the House take a fundamentally different view. We have faith in New Zealanders. We trust them. We understand that they can and will make sensible and fine decisions based on what is good for their own creative talent, what is good for the opportunities that are provided to them. So this piece of legislation is little more than the Labour Party belatedly, finally\u2014not in their first hundred days, but finally\u2014under duress, I suspect, and a little bit of nudging, pushing, and prodding by the trade union movement, they\u2019re trying to get this passed while they have a Parliamentary majority to achieve that. Well, we\u2019ll have a look at it when we get the opportunity, should we get the opportunity to be in Government at the next election. This will be a piece of legislation that will be firmly on our radar. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u002220e8eeeb097040a49918d1f975cb64fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220e8eeeb097040a49918d1f975cb64fa\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. This is a proud day today to be in the House to right what is a significant wrong that was implemented by the last National Government. The last speaker, Scott Simpson\u2014I disagreed with his entire speech. He seemed to have not noticed the fact that the contractor status of screen industry workers is maintained by this particular legislation, as agreed by the Film Industry Working Group. He was also wrong about Kris Faafoi being the last Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety, and he\u2019s wrong about what this bill does and what the importance of this bill is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EHis colleague Paul Goldsmith said, \u201CWhat is the crisis?\u201D I\u2019ll tell you what the crisis is. I worked as an employment lawyer and I had people in the screen industry come to me while this legislation was in force, and I had to say to them there is nothing I can do for you\u2014there is nothing I can do for you\u2014because, regardless of the true nature of your job, you are treated as a contractor and you have no rights. That is a crisis, and that is important to New Zealanders, and that is why it\u2019s so important that we pass this Screen Industry Workers Bill today and return the dignity and mana to this incredibly important industry of creative individuals that bring so much joy and so much culture to our country\u2014such an important industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI just want to briefly reflect\u2014I wanted to be quite hopeful with this speech, because we\u2019ve done quite a lot of work in this area, and we have gone through what happened under the last National Government at length in the second reading. So I wanted to talk a little bit about ex - Council of Trade Unions president Helen Kelly and the involvement that she had during this dispute. This was a horrible experience that she had to go through for standing up for the fundamental rights of an industry. The Government came in\u2014at the time, the National Government\u2014and took away the employment rights of an entire industry. No select committee process, no consultation\u2014they had nothing. She stood up with them. She was vilified. She was told that she was being unpatriotic. She said, at the time, it was outrageous that the Government removed workers\u2019 rights in the way that they did. I agree, and that\u2019s why I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022049dbbadf4ac4791baaa57841db0acf4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022049dbbadf4ac4791baaa57841db0acf4\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I, too, rise to celebrate this piece of legislation and a righting of a grievous wrong in our country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not what I intended but I want to start my speech with just a little bit of a review of history, because the National Party is so busy rewriting it that I feel compelled to be able to put some of the reality back on track. So we\u2019ve heard that, actually, there was no reason for this legislation\u2014none whatsoever\u2014and that the National Party had intervened to save an industry and protect workers. Whereas, actually, and I\u2019m also going to, in this, reference part of Rebecca Macfie\u2019s biography and some material in that biography of Helen Kelly, where she talks about the process that\u2019s led to this legislation today and what was happening under National, saying that \u201Cunlike their international peers, New Zealand actors didn\u2019t work under union contracts and were increasingly aggrieved that their pay and conditions seemed to be getting worse, despite the growth and success of the New Zealand film \u2026 in the global film industry,\u201D and that New Zealand cast and crews\u2014and this is quoting from it\u2014\u201Chad become known as the \u2018Mexicans of the South Pacific.\u2019 \u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the racism in terms of reference to Mexicans in that statement, and that came from an American context. But that was the reality for the people behind our creative industries, film industries, and screen industries at that time. It was where we heard of an attempt of one production where they went to the producer to have the discussion about having a collective contract and the entire cast was sacked and recast, just for wanting to have the conversation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003ESo there were efforts to be able to unionise and change this. There were efforts that then led to a boycott of the Lord of the Rings films that naturally, I think, in terms of the public conversations and how dear those films were held to New Zealanders, led to an uproar in response to that. Then, at that point, the Council of Trade Unions intervened and got an agreement between the producers and Equity New Zealand to be able to negotiate a resolution. Problem solved. But then big capital in the form of Warner Bros. and their executives flew into the country late at night and met with John Key. Then, under urgency with no select committee process, a law to remove employment rights for our film and screen industries were put in place with no public transparency, no ability for people of this country to have a say or even understand what was going on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EWe have seen that the rights and the pay and the conditions of these people that feed so much of our sense of cultural understanding, as well as promoting this country to the world, have just been eroding ever since. That is the history and why this piece of legislation is so important. It was Labour Party policy to overturn this, but while we hear from other speakers that \u201CThe Labour Party is just so ideological, they\u2019ll just do that.\u201D; actually, the Labour Party decided to bring together a film working group with producers and guilds and unions to negotiate a solution rather than just overturning it. They heard the potential concerns and wanted a sustainable solution to the problems in our film industries. It got agreement of all of those parties over a 10-month process. It was not what I would normally describe as a slapdash process, but that\u2019s what we heard from the National Party, despite their legislation passing in urgency after a late-night meeting with international interests\u2014that, I might describe as slapdash, knee-jerk, offensive, and anti-democratic, but, hey, that\u2019s for another day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003ESo we have this piece of legislation that has gone through a long select committee process, and a lot of really good changes were made in that in terms of the detail and strengthening it. I really want to acknowledge that a lot of occupational groups today is so important. I think I acknowledged Equity New Zealand and Denise Roche in the House to observe this because this is such an important day for our actors as well as our writers and our directors and editors, and they have been waiting for this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003ECollective bargaining will be a game-changer for many in our screen industries. It represents a maturing of the industry and a sign to me that as a country and as a Government and as a support party, we are no longer willing to sacrifice our artists to the altar of exploitative interests. Once this bill is in effect, all contracts will have the protection against sexual harassment, bullying, discrimination, and unfair termination. That\u2019s what the National Party is arguing against. I hope they feel proud. I would not be proud to be taking that position; I find it embarrassing. Every person in the industry will have these contracts with the protections even before collective bargaining, and they will maintain their independent contractor status, as has already been clarified because the National Party does not seem to understand the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI really want to acknowledge that the fearmongering that I\u2019ve heard from National about this putting our industry under threat neglects to mention that these protections are in place everywhere else in the world. This is not setting up additional protections for our workers; this is providing our workers with the same protections as those in other countries so that they are not treated as the lackeys and the cheap buy of big corporate interests, which is what John Key created and reinforced and went behind. So this bill will support a more stable industry where producers will be able to predict their budgets, and their budgets will be able to be based on reasonable wages and conditions, and they will be able to plan for that as they can in other jurisdictions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EToday is a day to celebrate our creators, and rather than just say that in words, to say it in a way that matters, in a way where we get behind them having the ability to have basic protections, and, hopefully, increasing pay and conditions at work. The Green Party is stoked to be able to support this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae75da0deaf341bf99cfe850c6407a15\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae75da0deaf341bf99cfe850c6407a15\u0022\u003ECHRIS BAILLIE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on behalf of ACT in opposition to the Screen Industry Workers Bill, a bill about the relationship between employers and employees. I\u2019d like to start by thanking those businesses and employers who funded New Zealand\u2019s Queen Elizabeth II memorial holiday. I\u2019m sure all employees were grateful to their employer for paying for this holiday and will work extra hard to make up the shortfall in funds. The painting and plastering business with 50 employees cost between $18,000 and $20,000 for the day. The sawmill owner with 16 staff: cost them $3,500.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9bd3976d2a0498aa68beb5bf7c34b52\u0022\u003EMarja Lubeck\u003C/span\u003E: Back to the bill. Come on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ee82d591b214f26819c715c9064f526\u0022\u003ECHRIS BAILLIE\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s coming up. The CEO of a large security company: costs them $140,000 for one day. And the hospitality owner with 32 staff, up to the eyeballs in debt after the one-in-100-year pandemic, which is continually used as an excuse by the Government: having to find an extra $4,500. I thank those people and I hope everyone enjoyed having the day off in memorial. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EThe bill has been well traversed, and although I wasn\u2019t there for the select committee process, it just seems to me that it is unnecessary. The Film Industry Working Group has suggested four principles apply to all screen production work, and they seem to make sense. Parties must act in good faith in their dealings with each other. Contractors doing screen production work must be protected from bullying, harassment of any kind, and discrimination. People who engage contractors must act fairly and reasonably when terminating contracts, and contractors doing screen production work must receive a fair rate of pay in relation to their skills and the scale of the production. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EIt makes you wonder if the Government has ever seen employment contracts. Here\u2019s a contract for a delivery driver: 12 pages\u201412 pages. In those 12 pages, it covers remuneration, it covers termination, it covers employee protection, it covers work safety, it covers employment relation problems, and everything must be dealt with in good faith. A 13-page contract for the hospitality industry covers all of those things, as well. They have to take them away for a week, consult with people, discuss it, take it to a lawyer if they want, and then they sign it. To say that those protections are not already in place is just misinformation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EBut the only difference is that this Government doesn\u2019t think individuals are capable of making their own decisions, and only the Government or unions can work out the pay and conditions in an employer-employee relationship. It believes that those people who want to work hard and get ahead don\u2019t want the interference of Government, especially unions. Actually, we know it, because we run businesses, and we deal with workers every day. They don\u2019t want it. Times have changed, and workers are more capable than ever of being masters of their own destiny. They don\u2019t need to be patronised and treated like fools. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EA few weeks ago during a debate, the Greens\u2019 Jan Logie said that they\u2019d like to go back to the 1970s, when the unions were strong. Shops weren\u2019t open on the weekends. Pubs shut at 10 o\u2019clock. Maybe we should go back to 6 o\u2019clock closing, because that worked really well\u2014such fantastic times. But, as is typical of the ideology of the left, they still want the benefits that workers have gained since those times: four weeks\u2019 annual leave, not two; two weeks\u2019 sick leave, not none; 12 days of statutory holidays, or 13 in some years; and the numerous other leave provisions that business owners have to pay for. It is unfortunate we have a Government of such division, convincing employees that they are continually being treated terribly, and all employers are rich and just want to get out as much as they can\u2014just so far from the actual reality. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EThe disconnect between the Government and the union affiliates with the real world is open and on display every day, like Andrew Little saying sick leave won\u2019t hurt businesses a bit\u2014$2 billion; the Council of Trade Unions president stating it\u2019s only one day for the Queen\u2019s holiday\u2014costing businesses $450 million; and the Public Service Association saying that they don\u2019t believe in performance pay. You need to digest that. What they\u2019re saying is they don\u2019t believe that if you work hard, you should be paid more. When I tell workers that, they really don\u2019t believe me. They\u2019re sick of people telling them how to\u2014these are the people who are telling the Government how to run businesses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003EThis bill is another example of the ideology of a Government devoid of business experience. It will affect the screen industry in New Zealand. It\u2019s just becoming too hard to do business in this beautiful country. ACT believes most employers are good people who just want to run a profitable, productive business, whether that\u2019s in the film industry or whatever, and we believe that most employees or contractors just want to work hard and get ahead. We believe the best way to do that is for the Government to leave them alone and treat them like adults. It has worked for the last 30 years. ACT cannot support this bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022 data-id=\u002299e9ddb78744477eb040a11c20be0612\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299e9ddb78744477eb040a11c20be0612\u0022\u003EIBRAHIM OMER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Happy to take a call on the Screen Industry Workers Bill. The previous speaker, Chris Baillie, was in the Education and Workforce Committee throughout the process, and throughout his speech he was referring to employees, but this bill is about contractors, and that\u2019s two different things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EAll the speeches from the Opposition MPs were just a rant\u2014anti-worker rant, anti-union rant\u2014there was no substance; there was nothing. And what a shame. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EThis bill aims to create a workplace relations regime for contractors in the screen industry. It simply provides certainty about the employment status of screen production workers. In 2010, the Employment Relations Act 2000 was amended to remove film production workers from its definition of \u201Can employee\u201D. By doing so, it took away all their basic rights, such as getting paid minimum wage and bargaining collectively. This was a gross injustice that needed to be rectified, and this is exactly what this bill intends to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EThis bill does a few things but mainly restores the mana and dignity of the screen industry workers. It introduces a duty of good faith for workplace relations\u2014for example, between contractors and their engagers. It creates a two-tiered collective bargaining framework, allowing bargaining to occur across occupational groups or within enterprises. It simply restores the occupational-level bargaining, enterprise-level bargaining, and dispute resolution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EThis bill is important because it delivers on a commitment to restore collective bargaining rights for film production workers. It\u2019s the rights which were removed when the previous Government legislated under urgency what is known as the \u201CHobbit law\u201D. This bill is all about righting the wrongs, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00228ef2f1d3b9e0438390684de89d16c031\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ef2f1d3b9e0438390684de89d16c031\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The next call is a split call. I call on Sam Uffindell\u2014five minutes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022 data-id=\u002282dff93e311247fd8bb8fa05c0b51532\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282dff93e311247fd8bb8fa05c0b51532\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s very good to be able to get up and talk on this bill, the Screen Industry Workers Bill, and we\u2019ve heard different points of view from both sides of the House. Repealing the \u201CHobbit law\u201D, as it was called, within the first 100 days. Well, I\u2019m not sure how many days we\u2019re on now, but we are well down the road, as this Government continues\u2014and you\u2019ve heard it before from the Hon Paul Goldsmith and the Hon Scott Simpson and from our colleagues in the ACT Party, but I will say it again: this is an attempt by this Government to force its union ideological agenda on the New Zealand workforce.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EI actually have a sister who works in the film industry, and she is a contractor. That flexibility has given her the ability to enter into agreements\u2014voluntarily\u2014get good wages out of it, and work to how she wants to work. That suits most people very well. And do you know what? People don\u2019t need to be forced into what they\u2019re wanting to do. People can make up their own mind, and we trust people to make up their own mind. Your Government\u2019s advice is actually that the changes we made in 2010 worked. I hear the people in the Green Party talking about what happened when international people flew into New Zealand and met with John Key at midnight. Oh my goodness! Well, guess what we got out of it! We got a trilogy, and how well did that work? That set up thousands of jobs in New Zealand, billions of dollars coming in. That\u2019s what happens when you\u2019re pragmatic, when you work with people and you make things happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EWould that have worked under your provisions? Would these companies have come to New Zealand? Would they have come over and set this up? I\u2019m not sure if they would have, and that\u2019s the risk we run, because what you guys don\u2019t realise is that we live in an international labour market, and people can choose to go and work wherever they want, and people can choose to film wherever they want. Unlike your side of the House, we\u2019ve figured this out: New Zealand isn\u2019t the epicentre of the world, and we have a very dynamic community, where people and jobs flow. So you need to have good conditions and you need to be internationally competitive, and if you\u2019re not, guess what happens! Those jobs walk away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EWe back freedom to choose. We want New Zealand to be internationally competitive. Now, I know it\u2019s taken you guys a while to get to this point, but, as has been acknowledged, you do have a new Minister in charge\u2014Michael Wood\u2014and he\u2019s been very busy. He had on a very smart, bright red tie, showing his political affiliations yesterday, and it\u2019s great to see, from your side of the House. I shouldn\u2019t use sarcasm, but it is good of you to see that you\u2019re pushing your ideological agenda on us. But we don\u2019t support it. We don\u2019t support this bill, because we fundamentally think that it will reduce our competitiveness. We know that it will reduce workers\u2019 right to choose. Gross revenue increased under the changes made by National. You need to remember that. Under the status quo, New Zealand is a very competitive place for people to come and work. Your own advice is that the amendments made by National in 2010 worked. This bill removes flexibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227148db5a550d437eb566fc4cfb3f83d8\u0022\u003EAngela Roberts\u003C/span\u003E: No, it doesn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022000ed0612fee4129941d31ca300c79cb\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL\u003C/span\u003E: It will send production companies offshore. And you might say it won\u2019t, but if you\u2019re a production company and you need to pay more, what are you going to do? You might go to Switzerland; you might go somewhere else. Mexico was brought up earlier today. You may go somewhere where it is more competitive. And do you know what? Workers might do the same as well, because they may want to arrange their own contract. Heaven forbid people can actually sit down with an employer and determine what their working arrangement is going to be! I know it doesn\u2019t bode well for you guys over there, but that\u2019s the reality of how people like to engage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s going to be increased uncertainty. Are film companies going to dive into New Zealand? They might sit on the fence for a little bit. We don\u2019t know; they might wait out the turbulence. The law as implemented by National helped to bring the trilogy here. They brought in a huge amount of money into this economy. They created a number of jobs, and you guys are fundamentally putting that at risk with your ideological agenda. The National Party opposes this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe2f1ebda7d14b3b942ea6deb0c32cee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe2f1ebda7d14b3b942ea6deb0c32cee\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the next speaker, I\u2019d like to remind the member who just resumed his seat, Sam Uffindell, to not use the word \u201Cyou\u201D, because every time you do, you bring me into the debate. I didn\u2019t want to stop you while you were making your speech, but it\u2019s a reminder for next time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022cad6d291447b45899f0f4c6c43a48856\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cad6d291447b45899f0f4c6c43a48856\u0022\u003EBARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E \u8C22\u8C22\uFF0CMadam Speaker. Again, some grace will be given to the member that\u2019s just sat down, Sam Uffindell, because this bill has been before the House during a period where the member\u2014anyway, we\u2019ll stop there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EBut what I wanted to say is that Wellington is not the only place in New Zealand that is the centre of the film industry for New Zealand. Queenstown is a lovely, great place to have film, but, actually, one that is closer to home, in my electorate of Mana, is K\u0101piti. Currently, in K\u0101piti, we have a budding screen industry that\u2019s growing there. And I want to acknowledge Ryan Cole, who is from Raumati, who just won an Emmy for Outstanding Sound Editing for a Comedy or Drama Series (One Hour) - 2022 for his work on Stranger Things. He had done that sound editing from his home. He had done that, as a New Zealander, based here, in K\u0101piti, still working for an international company, because he has that ability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s also another budding screen industry worker from Raumati, and she\u2019s currently working on the Indiana Jones movies. She is currently in Los Angeles at the moment working on that film\u2014again, based here in New Zealand, working there. But the interesting thing about this is she is the union rep. She is waiting for this bill to get through because she absolutely agrees with this bill. We\u2019ve been working together to make sure that what she wants to look at, for the part of this bill, that she clearly understands it so that when it is enacted, she knows how to support her members who will have a choice\u2014and, again, who will have a choice and are contractors\u2014to join a union.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo, therefore, I don\u2019t have much further to say. I thank the Education and Workforce Committee and the Minister for the work that they did on this bill and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5019519d50b43b49f0ad7244d8d8e11\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5019519d50b43b49f0ad7244d8d8e11\u0022\u003EJO LUXTON (Labour\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m really pleased to stand and take a call on this piece of legislation, the Screen Industry Workers Bill. I am a business owner and I employ staff, and I\u2019m not from a union background but I can see that benefit, absolutely, of ensuring that those people who work as employees or as contractors have a voice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EThis bill simply gives people who are contractors in the screen industry a voice and rights that they have not had previously. My colleague Camilla Belich talked about her experience as an employment lawyer, and she herself said that when people from the screen industry came to see her because of issues they were having, she could not help them because they had no rights. Why is the National Party so fundamentally against giving good, honest, working people basic rights that protect them from sexual harassment, bullying, and give them basic wage entitlements and sick leave entitlements? I don\u2019t understand why that party is so against looking after the working people of New Zealand. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1c8b762544848299ab1002bb1f13828\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1c8b762544848299ab1002bb1f13828\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E This will be very uncomfortable for the left because they don\u2019t really like hearing consistent logical thought, so brace yourselves and buckle in. You can see the lack of commitment from the left\u2014they\u2019re taking exceptionally, exceptionally short calls. After almost years of prevarication on this bill, they\u2019ve finally\u2014finally\u2014got it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fefb789fe5a7439f93b70da2d35309fd\u0022\u003EAngela Roberts\u003C/span\u003E: So are we rushing it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bc70dc2290e42adad6465def75ae7f1\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I have to address this\u2014if someone says they\u2019re rushing it, of course they are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf098c8ba95140da99351f416b0a3576\u0022\u003EAngela Roberts\u003C/span\u003E: Or are we dragging it out?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ec9df22c01d4c4eac6ded20ab2f39be\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Now they\u2019re saying, \u201CHave we been dragging it out?\u201D Well, actually, the Labour Party has, because, like so many of their promises, they said that they would sort this in their first 100 days, and, as Sam Uffindell has just pointed out, we are well past 100 days of this Government. In fact, I think most Kiwis are finding that they\u2019re well past this Government entirely. But that\u2019s the first question around this bill: why has it taken so long for a Labour Party promise to come to the House? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThis is not a question about the merit of the bill\u2014obviously the left like it. The question is: why has it taken so, so long to get here? [Interruption] We sort of have a choir going on from our lefty friends today, which is involving only two words\u2014they probably can\u2019t be heard. One is \u201Csupport\u201D and one is \u201Ccontractors\u201D, as if stating two words is in itself an argument. The problem we have, fundamentally, is that this bill is increasing union rights, which is going to be a detriment to the industry and, I would argue, to the very workers that the union is supposed to represent, and we\u2019ll tease that out a bit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EBut first and foremost\u2014well, it\u2019s not first and foremost. I\u2019m already two minutes in; I\u2019ve already done twice as long as any Labour MP. Jo Luxton pointed out concerns around sexual harassment and other conditions that this bill touches on. The National Party has absolutely no problem with that, but, like any legislation, this bill, the Screen Industry Workers Bill, goes much, much wider. So I stress that, for anybody who\u2019s watching this, the National Party supports a good amount of what\u2019s in this legislation. As I say, increased protections around harassment, bullying, and so forth makes absolute and perfect sense. However, that\u2019s not simply what the bill is about; it gives enormous powers to the union to negotiate contracts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ENow, the counterargument from the other side is that what\u2019s known as the \u201CHobbit law\u201D, passed by the John Key Government, went too far in the other direction, basically stripping\u2014well, there was no union power. Contracts were negotiated between individuals, and if you\u2019re a good left-wing Marxist, like most of them are on the other side, you\u2019ll talk about hierarchies, and power imbalances, and so forth. T\u0101mati Coffey laughs because he doesn\u2019t quite understand what the word \u201CMarxist\u201D means, but they would argue that it went far too far. The only corollary, of course, is that this bill, like any good pendulum, has flipped completely out the other side. And so the left is here today, patting itself on the back. They\u2019re absolutely delighted. They think it\u2019s going to be marvellous\u2014all these new union conditions that are going to be imposed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESo, first and foremost, it\u2019s certain payback. We definitely know\u2014we can see though the legislative changes being pushed through this House, including around fair pay agreements\u2014that the unions are absolutely delighted. The Labour Party has taken a great leap backwards to take us into the 1950s and 1960s\u2014the cloth cap makers across the country will be delighted. The payback is being given. But the other element that\u2019s going to be kicking forward\u2014or kicking backwards, strictly\u2014is that there will not be the contracts for the union to negotiate. So the unions probably think this is a win. The Labour Party certainly thinks it\u2019s a win. The Greens probably think it\u2019s a win. Some in the industry, yes, think it\u2019s a win and that it\u2019s just great, except they\u2019re going to find there is no industry, actually, and let\u2019s just elucidate on that in two particular ways.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EBarbara Edmonds actually gave a very thoughtful contribution, mentioning two people from New Zealand who are doing work overseas, which I think is absolutely fantastic and very much an expression of our modern environment. I would be relatively confident\u2014I\u2019d better be clear: I don\u2019t know, but I\u2019d be relatively confident\u2014that this law will not impact those people, because if they\u2019re working in New Zealand for a company overseas, those are external international contracts and this law has no impact. In fact, it\u2019s symbolic of what is going to happen more. New Zealanders will be doing screen production work for overseas companies. Yes, they can still be in New Zealand, which is tremendous\u2014probably thanks to the ultra-fast broadband that National rolled out\u2014but, actually, they\u2019re going to be governed by international contracts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThe second point\u2014and I raised this; I can\u2019t remember whether it was in the second reading or maybe the first reading speech\u2014is that we are already seeing an industry that\u2019s under pressure, and I used Amazon as a really good example. I will admit I have downloaded Prime. I\u2019m paying a subscription to watch The Lord of the Rings. It\u2019s not quite in the spirit of Tolkien, but, you know, it\u2019s still entertaining and it\u2019s a distraction from occasional life in Parliament. But Amazon has already left New Zealand. Things were already getting difficult enough for them. It was a major screen industry, and, as I pointed out before, they\u2019re leaving because of the Labour Government. In effect, the ridiculous COVID rules, mandates, and proscriptions, that the Government pushed, basically saw them leave. Paul Goldsmith is completely correct. New Zealand is not the only country that has mountains and rivers and so forth. They can go to Slovakia and the UK and a whole lot of other places, and they are\u2014they have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EAnd so already we are seeing an exodus, and this bill is going to make it even worse, I would argue. I could be wrong. I\u2019m more than happy for the left to come back at me in years to come and say, \u201CLook, the movie industry in New Zealand, the screen\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2b4fd8f9a92453fbf07de3b7b800415\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a deal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b51824bdc487420e8b0b4640a256fa6d\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014industry, is thriving.\u201D Jo Luxton or someone on the other side has said, \u201CIt\u2019s a deal.\u201D\u2014they\u2019ll come back and tell me I\u2019m wrong, and I\u2019d be happy to be wrong, but I don\u2019t think I\u2019m going to be. I think the screen industry in New Zealand is already struggling. It\u2019s already under major pressure, and this law change is going to make things much, much more difficult. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s pyrrhic victory\u2014once again, to offend the principles of plain language that the Labour Government is keen on. It\u2019s a pyrrhic victory. Today, the Labour Party, the Green Party, various union officials, and others will delight in what has happened, but they\u2019re going to find, and those contractors are going to find, that there just isn\u2019t the work here in New Zealand. It\u2019s as simple as that. And related to it as well is that in recent days the screen industry, not only on the international side but also the domestic side, will lose funding. Now, under Willie Jackson, most of the money from New Zealand On Air that used to go to the likes of SPADA\u2014the Screen Production and Development Association\u2014and others, to do screen industry work in New Zealand, is going to go to Willie Jackson\u2019s new multimedia TVNZ/RNZ. In other words, we\u2019re also seeing pressure on the screen industry where domestic funding\u2019s been removed \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESo we have a bill here that is changing the conditions, which is going to make it even harder for anyone to actually do any film production, and simultaneously we have a Government now looking to strip the funding which some of our screen production associations are using. As I say, the funding from New Zealand On Air is going to be diverted\u2014not all of it, and most of those on the left are looking confused, because Willie Jackson probably hasn\u2019t explained it to them, or, if he did, they couldn\u2019t understand a word he was saying, which is pretty normal. They are taking money that the screen industry and, if you will, the workers use and it\u2019s to be pumped into this new\u2014I\u2019ve forgotten what they call it\u2014New Zealand media company, the fusion of Radio New Zealand and TVNZ. So I would suggest to the House and to you, Madam Speaker, that this piece of legislation is not going to help the industry at all; in fact, I think we\u2019re seeing, unfortunately, an industry going backwards. You can see the great benefits we\u2019ve had of a screen industry that has been thriving up until recent years. Again, I want to acknowledge that COVID had an impact\u2014rather, not COVID but the rules the Labour Government held to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8d3aa4321654d3999a24eedd981726d\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022faf48221313543f884ccf67bcf16e7de\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: They sigh, of course, but these guys have probably never talked to an Amazon or all the companies in New Zealand that had work through them. It\u2019s now gone. Again, we want to stress that\u2014gone. That\u2019s thousands of jobs, thousands and thousands of jobs, and if the left think that this bill is going to make things better, they are sorely wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESo I want to conclude where I started. To bookend this little story\u2014well, it will be 10 minutes\u2014even if those on the left think that the previous law and what is currently the existing law is wrong, they are welcome to think that. And you can make a relatively coherent and rational argument of why it was not a good law. I personally think it was fine, but I can understand the rational argument against it. This bill is like a pendulum which is swinging far too far in this case to the left. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EOnce again, they say, \u201COh, the industry wants\u201D\u2014yeah, fine. It\u2019s great that they want it. It\u2019s going to be really interesting in the coming months and years when they find there is no industry and they\u2019re all wringing their hands and saying, \u201COh, I wish the Government would give us more money. Oh, we need bailouts because there\u2019s just no one coming here. Oh, we\u2019ve lost all our best talent overseas.\u201D I look forward to the left and those people opining. Anyway, thank you very much, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022 data-id=\u00220abe885182b34b22be42e8d7eecc1e08\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220abe885182b34b22be42e8d7eecc1e08\u0022\u003EANGELA ROBERTS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is an absolute privilege to be the last speaker to take a call on this significant little bill, the Screen Industry Workers Bill. I just want to start by acknowledging the Hon Iain Lees-Galloway, who has joined us and who, of course, brought this bill to the House. There have been many who have been mentioned since who have worked on it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve taught many creative, bright, intelligent, committed, and hard-working students, young people, in school and community theatre, and they wanted to join and become a part of the screen industry. The other side are always talking about, you know, being happy to bask in the glory of our international success, but they\u2019re also clear that the workers in that industry should be grateful to be a part of it. And that\u2019s right\u2014they are grateful to be a part of it. But therein lies the power imbalance and therein lies the injustice: that has led to poor conditions and poor pay for some of our \u201Ccontractors\u201D in the industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EI can remember many hundreds of years ago when I was a student myself and was considering going into theatre, and my mother very wisely said to me there is nothing romantic about starving in a garret. I\u2019m really pleased that, if I was in the classroom, I would no longer have to give that advice to my students\u2014that I know that they are going to be safe, they\u2019re going to have their mana intact, in being a part of this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EThe industry wants this. The Film Industry Working Group developed the solution. They understand that this is our place and that it is our people that make us internationally competitive. It ain\u2019t the price we pay for our people; it\u2019s our people that make us internationally competitive and successful. Thank goodness the creatives got together to find the solution. They are, absolutely, fundamentally collaborative and innovative, and they came up with things\u2014oh my goodness, it was different and new. Apparently, according to the other side, that is not something to be cherished. They wanted something meaningful and modern. Well, actually, that\u2019s exactly what this bill has delivered\u2014that is exactly what this bill delivered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EThis bill is for our young people, our young creatives, who are going to continue to build on our international success and be creative internationally. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225b72a13708164f9b8a57fde784d2e8b5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Screen Industry Workers Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000177\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002202bf12882551421e9cd4e10db3f6af01\u0022\u003EFire and Emergency New Zealand (Levy) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b8ccb0c930cd4db29006b01f6141430d\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022b46fbf1a06504060ad719056b2befb0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b46fbf1a06504060ad719056b2befb0d\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Minister of Agriculture) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister of Internal Affairs: I present a legislative statement on the Fire and Emergency New Zealand (Levy) Amendment Bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aac65ad76852413dbd5c19be15a5d59a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022408f6f0afc4e431b8398f4b9e4d7e4f8\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Fire and Emergency New Zealand (Levy) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Governance and Administration Committee to consider the bill, and, at the appropriate time, I intend to move a motion that the select committee report back on the bill to the House by 16 February 2023.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EFire and Emergency and our career and voluntary firefighters are a critical part of our communities. They respond to a broad range of incidents to keep us, our wh\u0101nau, and other loved ones safe. This includes fires, motor vehicle accidents, medical emergencies, and forming a key part of our emergency management response during natural disasters, among many other things. When these events do occur, Fire and Emergency are there to help protect people and prevent damage to property, land, and the environment. They also play a key role in helping us to reduce the chance of devastating fires in our homes, businesses, and other private and public property in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe Fire and Emergency New Zealand Act 2017 saw the amalgamation of more than 14,000 people from 40 separate organisations into Fire and Emergency New Zealand (FENZ). This included the New Zealand Fire Service, the National Rural Fire Authority, 12 enlarged rural fire districts, and 26 rural fire authorities into one organisation. The legislative framework has mostly been fit for purpose since then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EHowever, based on feedback from the sector, this Government established a review of the funding model in 2019 to make sure the collection of funding through insurance levies had fair and reasonable settings. This bill establishes the findings of that review and makes important changes to the functions of the levy framework.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EFENZ is funded by a 97 percent levy collection, so it\u2019s important that the levy system works well in order for FENZ to deliver critical functions. The levy framework in Part 3 of the FENZ Act sets out the types of insurance contracts that must pay the levy, who is responsible for paying the levy, and the value of the property to be used as the basis for calculating the levy. In other words, it\u2019s a methodology for the levy. The framework does not specify how much money Fire and Emergency will have in the short term; this is done through a separate regulation-making process under the FENZ Act. This means that when we consider the levy framework, we must focus on whether it provides a fit for purpose funding system for the long term, rather than any immediate funding matters of today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EIt is also worth noting that the levy framework in the FENZ Act is yet to begin. While most of the FENZ Act came into force in 2017, after the Act had completed its journey through the House, the levy framework in Part 3 has had a delayed starting date. This has given us an opportunity to make certain that the levy framework will work as intended, and ensure that it can be well implemented in practice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EDuring the 2019 review of the funding model, alternative approaches were considered, such as a property-based model that calculates the levy based on property data, such as value, size, or use. We decided to stick with, and improve, the existing insurance-based model over this alternative. This reflects the fact that the insurance-based model remains fundamentally fit for purpose and the least costly to implement for stakeholders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EHowever, I would like to acknowledge that there were some concerns among stakeholders about the insurance-based model in the FENZ Act under this approach. That\u2019s why we have this bill here today before us. The Government has heard these concerns and is taking action to address them. I\u2019d like to acknowledge the insurance sector and thank them for the critical role they play in the Fire and Emergency levy under an insurance-based model. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThis bill is about enabling the simplest system, making it easier to implement without creating unnecessary cost and complexity. To achieve this, the bill makes four changes to improve the levy framework in the FENZ Act. Firstly, only property insured against physical loss or damage from fire will be levied, instead of property insured against any physical loss or damage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ESecondly, the levy will be calculated using the sum insured in an insurance contract, rather than a term amount insured. These two changes will clarify which insurance arrangements are meant to pay the levy, avoiding potentially complex calculations and stopping some properties being charged twice. The approach in the bill is clearer and it more closely aligns with existing practice and terminology in the insurance sector. It also increases the likelihood that the system will be consistently applied.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThirdly, the bill clarifies a small technical matter to make sure that motor vehicles insured against third-party risk pay a flat rate of levy, just like motor vehicles with comprehensive insurance will. This was the original intent of the FENZ Act and will mean that all insured motor vehicles pay the levy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EFourthly, the bill amends the starting date of the new levy system to 1 July 2026, or an earlier date set by Order in Council. This is an unfortunate but necessary side effect of the disruption that COVID-19 has caused to us all. There are several things that must be completed before the new levy system can be complete.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThis bill must pass through the House, and the Government needs to set regulations outlining exempt property and what the levy rate will be. It is also critical that the insurance sector has enough time to update their systems to calculate and collect the new levy once the regulations have been finalised. The existing commencement date was set before COVID-19 came to our shores, and it is just not feasible any more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe effect of these combined changes is to provide a levy framework that is clear to interpret, and simple to apply in practice. This makes the levy framework more predictable and stable for Fire and Emergency and levy payers\u2014two key principles of the funding system. It also ensures that the work of insurance companies and insurance brokers for the levy is much simpler. This will significantly reduce the implementation and ongoing administrative costs they face. This, in turn, ensures that these costs are not passed on to New Zealanders taking out insurance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EBefore I conclude, I\u2019d like to extend my thanks to the Insurance Council of New Zealand, the Insurance Brokers Association of New Zealand, the Property Council New Zealand, and to Fire and Emergency New Zealand, who all provided feedback on the exposure draft\u2014your constructive and thoughtful feedback has helped to improve the legislation and ensure it is workable for everyone. Your patience and input is greatly appreciated. I pass that on on behalf of the Minister herself, and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d1f45b36f7ab479c9daa68b08c463f7c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d1f45b36f7ab479c9daa68b08c463f7c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022 data-id=\u00222e33279ed2604bffa2e2905c13683870\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e33279ed2604bffa2e2905c13683870\u0022\u003ETODD MULLER (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Well, if ever there is an illustration of this Government\u2019s inherent lethargy and lack of urgency, it is the speech that we\u2019ve just heard by the Minister Damien O\u2019Connor, on behalf of the Minister of Internal Affairs relating to this bill in front of us today, the Fire and Emergency New Zealand (Levy) Amendment Bill. What, essentially, he is saying is that after the 2017 Act was enabled\u2014included in that Act was a Part 3 which talked about the levy methodologies that would come into effect in 2024. Post the election, there was feedback from a number of stakeholders, particularly the property owners, the commercial property owners of New Zealand, and the insurance brokers, that they felt that there were elements of that Part 3 that were not fit for purpose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EOn the basis of that feedback, 18 months later, the Government starts a consultative round with a wider group of stakeholders to reflect on whether the Part 3 levy framework as proposed in the 2017 Act was fit for purpose, whether there should be a broader reset on how the levies and how Fire and Emergency New Zealand (FENZ) is funded\u2014should it be through an insurance levy on property and motor vehicles? Are there too many free-riders? Should it be a much wider application of risk and activity, bearing in mind that FENZ increasingly are the first responders to \u201Ccode purple\u201D heart attacks, which bear very little to the original brief of Fire and Emergency New Zealand to look after fire in our community. After that consultation process, which took two years, the Government then said in 2021 in Cabinet that, ultimately, they will not go down the path of resetting the revenue for FENZ in a more broad context but would focus instead on the particular issues with respect to the levy process which is captured by the insurance companies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EHere we are, 18 months further on, with a relatively small and simple bill which tweaks and confirms for the Insurance Council the figure which they will use, being the sum insured, for their calculations with respect to the fire proportion of insurance on buildings, reconfirms the current rate with respect to motor vehicle and residential insurance fire levies that are paid to FENZ, says that all the exceptions which are in the current Part 3 have yet to be dealt with\u2014\u201Cand we will get around to dealing with it as a Government\u201D\u2014and also confirms that the start date is four years away. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EI mean, literally, what on earth is this Government doing? What is Minister Tinetti doing? She is the Minister of Internal Affairs, accountable for FENZ, and the sum total of five years\u2019 effort in this space is a bill which is simple in its application and says, \u201CBy the way, all the hard issues, all the issues around exemptions and whether the rates need to change, that\u2019s going to be in regulations, and that\u2019s over the next four years.\u201D Frankly, it\u2019s not good enough, but it is illustrative, for people watching on TV now, around the approach that this Government brings to these matters. They are far more comfortable lost in the sea of process than actually doing anything and actually getting stuff done, and this is an example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003ENow, as I say, the bill itself, being simple and being focused on clarifying how, from an insurance levy perspective, the fire portion is going to be charged, is fine\u2014makes sense; there\u2019s nothing particularly onerous in it, so, therefore, as you would expect, we\u2019ll support it for what it is. This is it\u2014sum total of five years\u2019 effort. We\u2019ll support it, but, frankly, it\u2019s a lost opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EAlso, the issue around what, ultimately, the rate will be set at by 2026\u2014as I said: silent. That\u2019s a subsequent four-year effort. There\u2019s no acknowledgment of the Government that, actually, the levy payers of this country have funded FENZ to the extent of $220 million more than what was expected in this year of operations when FENZ was created in 2017. Who\u2019s paid for that? The Government? No; $10 million a year\u2014motor vehicle owners, residential homeowners, and, in particular, non-residential homeowners, the commercial property owners, who pay 60 percent of that levy by virtue of the amount of commercial property there is and how much their properties have risen in value over the last few years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003ESo where is the critical assessment by an accountable Minister as to whether $661 million of FENZ revenue is appropriate, is being spent well, is actually delivering for the front-line services? They\u2019re all silent on that. In fact, there\u2019s every chance, knowing this Government, that the actual rates finally decided will go up, because, from their perspective, tax, revenue, costs only go one way. They don\u2019t know how to wrestle back efficiencies. They don\u2019t know how to look at FENZ and say, \u201CActually, we expect more for the money, not just keep spending, keep spending, and don\u2019t bother telling us what you spend it on. We\u2019re not really that interested. If it doesn\u2019t get to the front line, we don\u2019t really care. We only contribute $10 million a year. This is really a levy payer problem, not ours.\u201D Not acceptable\u2014nowhere near acceptable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EWhen you overlay that spend\u2014$200 million more than expected\u2014and put on top of it $460 million in five years for capital, and you go to any fire station in this country\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240819b4dcac647ef808893a90c36a63b\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: And we have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254aa3cb5ec89403a940b6c58d0630109\u0022\u003ETODD MULLER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and we have\u2014and say, \u201CWell, have you seen the benefit of it?\u201D Not at all\u2014all lost in the wash. No accountability from the Minister. She just says, \u201COh, that\u2019s FENZ\u2019s problem.\u201D You appoint the board, Minister. They report to you. They say, \u201CHere\u2019s our budget, this is what we\u2019re going to spend it on, here are our statements of performance indicators. Here are our KPIs.\u201D Where is the accountability and drive and urgency to get value for money on behalf of the insurance payers of this country? You can tell there\u2019s no urgency because this bill\u2014five years in gestation and four years subsequent to the day to fulfil the detail that sits behind it. That lack of urgency, that lethargy, if that was applied in the private sector, you wouldn\u2019t last five minutes. You\u2019d be out the door before you even sat down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de097701b1774c47b42c8204b4529a81\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Some of them will be next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aef047d7dfaf4de68d40f9b6f6fc793a\u0022\u003ETODD MULLER\u003C/span\u003E: They certainly will be, Michael Woodhouse\u2014they certainly will be. But they just simply don\u2019t get it, that, actually, there are people out there trying to do the job, put out our fires, be the first responders, under intense pressure. Their parent organisation spends more money than was expected by a factor of $200 million. They are not feeling it. A funding review that became too hard, so let\u2019s just tweak the current model\u2014two more years to get that legislation up, and four more years to finally implement it. It\u2019s illustrative of a tired, lethargic Government who simply doesn\u2019t have the urgency to grasp the opportunity that we need in this country; 12 more months, and that\u2019ll change. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022 data-id=\u0022a33402dcb80b47dd85bcfa749ba5c798\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a33402dcb80b47dd85bcfa749ba5c798\u0022\u003ENAISI CHEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. As a member of the Governance and Administration Committee, we welcome this bill to our select committee. This is a great bill. We\u2019re looking at increasing efficiency, making sure that the way that we collect levies for our fire services is improved, so that we can actually save money and produce efficiencies. I think there was a bit of a contradiction from the last member who has just resumed his seat, Todd Muller, in terms of whether he wants efficiency through this bill or not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003EThis is a bill where I think we have to look at how we collect the levy and not what we\u2019re collecting, so this is just one of the things where we have to tweak the process of it. In this process, we\u2019ve worked really closely with the insurance sector as well. So that\u2019s why we\u2019re about to propose that this is a four-month report back as well, just to make sure that everything is on time and everything is efficient. So to the spirit of this bill, I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1694f4c2aa249ff84ff7b19bbf3c723\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1694f4c2aa249ff84ff7b19bbf3c723\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY (National\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E Well, sorry, Madam Speaker, I was a bit slow to follow on. I was a bit surprised after such a rousing speech from that Government member, Naisi Chen, on what is such an important bill this was, in her mind\u2014she took all of about 45 seconds. That very much sums it up, because, with that last speaker using words like \u201Csave money\u201D and \u201Cincreasing efficiency\u201D, I would go as far to say I doubt there is one firefighter in New Zealand, whether they be volunteer or paid, who would use the words \u201Csave money\u201D and \u201Cincreasing efficiency\u201D and \u201CFire and Emergency New Zealand\u201D (FENZ) in the same sentence at the moment. I mean, what a shambles. And it is no surprise that we haven\u2019t heard from the responsible Minister, Jan Tinetti, who\u2019s the Minister from the Department of Internal Affairs, today, because that is symbolic that she has been silent on this whole debate around FENZ. What FENZ is looking for is some leadership from this Government. That is exactly what we are missing in New Zealand today: leadership from this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EI want to echo the words of my good friend and colleague Todd Muller, who led off for the Opposition in this bill, today, when he spoke of engaging the many brave men and women around New Zealand who, today,\u2014who, this morning\u2014will put their lives at risk responding to emergency calls on behalf of their communities. As Mr Muller quite rightly pointed out, it\u2019s not always responding to fires; it is responding to emergency health incidents as well. They don\u2019t feel backed, at the moment, by this Government, and they don\u2019t feel backed by FENZ.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EThe Fire and Emergency New Zealand Act was passed in this House in 2017. We had this review of Part 3 five years later, and here we are, debating a levy framework that will be enacted in four years\u2019 time. If you think of all the issues facing our brave firemen and women today\u2014here we are, in this House, and they wonder why New Zealanders feel that, more and more, increasingly, Wellington is being disconnected from the issues of real New Zealand. We\u2019re debating a levy framework that will be enacted in four years\u2019 time. There\u2019s some real serious concerns\u2014how do we have this independent Crown entity with an income of around $661 million, as Mr Muller quite rightly pointed out, an expected increase of $220 million. Yep, there might be some nice fire stations around the country. In my electorate of Waimakariri, in my region of Canterbury, there\u2019s a number of new fire stations, largely, of course, to do with the devastating earthquakes, but it\u2019s actually the equipment and their personnel that this funding needs to flow down to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EIf I could tell a story of when I visited the stations in Canterbury, specifically the Redwood fire station in my electorate and the ANZAC fire station in Canterbury. It\u2019s quite heart-breaking to hear the stories, the intensity, and the level of complexity that our firefighters are now going out to and engaging, especially in emergency health incidents. Quite rightly, we need to make sure\u2014and it is Mental Health Awareness Week this week\u2014they get the right services, whether we want to call them employee assistance programme (EAP) services or mental health support services. One fireperson told me that they got given the number for the EAP service, they rung up, they needed some support, and the therapist actually had to stop them and say, \u201CActually, I\u2019m a relationship counsellor; I\u2019m not a trauma counsellor.\u201D These are the lack of services that our brave firemen and women are not getting at a time when it\u2019s greatly needed. Yet in the House, we are debating a bill that got reviewed five years after the enabling legislation, and now we\u2019re debating a levy framework that will be brought in in four years\u2019 time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EWhen you look at the changes, yep, they seem quite perfunctory. They seem the right way forward\u2014we\u2019re going to change to looking at a levy based on sum insured, and the insurance around the motor vehicle, and defining and giving more clarity to the insurance sector around insuring a physical loss from fire. But, actually, when we look at the levy and the methodologies, this Parliament needs to know and needs to be comforted that when that levy is taken and it is dispersed through FENZ, that money will get to the front line. That\u2019s a problem we have today. We have a FENZ that doesn\u2019t seem to be backing our front-line fire and emergency workers. What we have is a Minister who is missing in action\u2014a Minister who should be stepping up at this time of crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EThere wouldn\u2019t be one member of Parliament, across any party in this House, that hasn\u2019t received a heartfelt email from someone who\u2019s working at the front line. I\u2019d be very disappointed to find out if there was member of Parliament in this House who, actually, based on those emails, hasn\u2019t gone out and visited one of those fire stations, because that\u2019s when you\u2019ll hear the real stories of what\u2019s happening on the front line. So it\u2019s all very well for this Government to get up today and say, \u201CYep, we\u2019re bringing this bill to the House. We\u2019ve had a review based on engagement with the insurance sector and other sectors. We\u2019re moving forward about\u201D\u2014what did that last speaker say?\u2014\u201Csaving money and increasing efficiency.\u201D I mean, that really has to be a Tui ad, doesn\u2019t it? A Labour member of Parliament getting up\u2014and the audacity to keep a straight face and to say that under their Government, they\u2019re going to save money and increase efficiency. If there\u2019s one thing that the New Zealand public has learnt under this Labour Government, it\u2019s that there is no saving of money\u2014profligate spending, a Government addicted to spending\u2014and there is no increasing of efficiencies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EIn fact, when you listen to some of the stories of our firemen and women at the front line, you\u2019ve really got to scratch your head about equipment that is turning up not fit for purpose, money paying for a number of consultants, where work never goes anywhere. So, I suppose, it\u2019s all very well debating this levy framework today, but, I tell you what: New Zealanders listening today will want to know, \u201CYep, there is a social contract there. We, quite rightly, agree to levies being taken through our insurance, whether it be in our property or to our motor vehicles, to fund a fire and emergency response.\u201D But they want to know there\u2019s due diligence in FENZ to ensure that that money is getting spent well and wisely, and getting into the front line.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EYou can\u2019t help but think that what\u2019s happening in FENZ, at the moment, is the permeating culture from this Labour Government that is addicted to spending, and there is actually no fiscal discipline, and there\u2019s actually no outcomes. There\u2019s no evaluation. Are we doing what we want to achieve? You\u2019ve got to wonder why this has been kicked out for four years. I tell you what, when you look at what these guys tried to do\u2014sneak through a retirement tax, they\u2019re trying to sneak through a jobs tax at the moment. What\u2019s up around this four years? What is their plan for the levies? Why is it going to take four years? That\u2019s, I think, the question that hangs over this House today. Maybe we might hear some clarity from the Government members when they take their call. But I\u2019ve got no doubt that there will be some suspicion out there in New Zealand, and quite rightly so, because every time they seem to turn on the TV, costs are going up and this Government\u2019s coming up with another reason to tax hard-working Kiwis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022 data-id=\u002201699142cda64a108d1f2173dd2663f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201699142cda64a108d1f2173dd2663f3\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE (Labour\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E What a negative speech we\u2019ve heard for the past 10 minutes. I feel sorry for people who are listening at home or who are up in the gallery, listening to that 10 minutes of negativity. That\u2019s just an example of where the National Party is at, at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EWe are a Government that is getting on with doing good work for people in New Zealand, and we hear speeches like that\u2014just negative, going on and on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229822782ed4cf4b47b80ffb9589eeaba5\u0022\u003EMatt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: Have you been to a fire station?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215b0e6fe63f74f279ac8199bad58853c\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sure that if John Key were listening at home, he would be incredibly disappointed with the state of the National Party at the moment, because he was a pretty positive person when he was Prime Minister. And, to answer the member\u2019s question, yes, I have visited a fire station\u2014in the past six weeks\u2014and I acknowledge the work that they all do there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003EI\u2019m not going to take too long, because the Minister clearly outlined what\u2019s in this bill. It\u2019s an important piece of legislation. I acknowledge the Minister Jan Tinetti and, as a member of the Governance and Administration Committee, I look forward to welcoming this bill if this passes in the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022c137341720004b3da324302d491ff974\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c137341720004b3da324302d491ff974\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on behalf of the Greens to take a call on the Fire and Emergency New Zealand (Levy) Amendment Bill. First of all, I want to acknowledge the workers\u2014I acknowledge the firefighters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EOver the past few months, Green MPs have been going out and visiting different fire stations. I myself visited the fire stations in Whanganui, Newtown, my home town of Palmerston North, and Auckland, and the stories I heard were very concerning. It was very concerning to hear about the breadth of the work that our firefighters are doing. They do a whole lot more than just fighting fires. They\u2019re among our first responders. They\u2019re the first to respond at medical events, car crashes, and other traumatic situations, and, increasingly, flood events because of climate change. So I hope that Fire and Emergency New Zealand (FENZ) is listening to their calls for better pay and conditions and that they hire more firefighters, get proper equipment, and offer health insurance to firefighters, and also provide help and psychological wellbeing for firefighters, including those diagnosed with occupational cancers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EWhen I went and visited the Palmerston North fire station, I was shocked to see the condition of the gear. One of the firefighters took me out and showed me the truck. The gear was falling to pieces, and this was something that had come up at all of the fire stations that I\u2019d visited. He had this compressor hose connected to the fire truck, and he said to me, \u201CDo you know what? We\u2019ve got to keep this thing going 24 hours a day because this truck has got to get out that door and to the fire within minutes, because if we don\u2019t get there, that house could go up in flames.\u201D This is the immense pressure that many of our front-line firefighters are facing. This is the pressure that they\u2019re under, so it\u2019s really important for us to acknowledge that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EWe will be supporting this bill to at least the select committee. We do have a number of concerns. I do take the point about the efficiencies and inconsistencies, and making sure that we don\u2019t waste money and making sure that that stuff is streamlined. That will help to give some clarity for the levy, and that\u2019s a good thing. That will give clarity right across as well, so I do want to acknowledge that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EThis bill follows two other recent FENZ bills that relate to its levy on insurance policy holders, which presents the primary source of funding for FENZ activities. The 2017 bill revamped the Fire and Emergency structure in Aotearoa, and the 2019 bill delayed the commencement of its new levy regime to allow the insurance industry more time to prepare. The levy rates are prescribed in regulation by the Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EThis bill makes amendments to the new process for calculating and collecting the levy to reduce administrative complexity, and that\u2019s a good thing. It supports stability\u2014another good thing\u2014and it ensures that the levy complies with its funding principles in the principal Act, and if you go through that, you can read what those are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EThis includes narrowing the scope of collection to fire damage insurance previously covered by material damage, physical loss, and technical amendments. Possibly, our primary concern is that in the context of the national fire strike action and the conversations that we have heard as well, we would not support the proposed principles narrowing the levy scope and then being justified to use tighten funding for FENZ as well, because, actually, they need more funding. So I think this is something that needs to be brought up in select committee, or if Government members could give us some clarity about what that implementation will look like, that would be good for front-line workers, and it would be good for insurance companies as well, because it gives us that clearer direction of what\u2019s going to happen here as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EThat detail is good because, as I said earlier, fire stations are underfunded. They are under-resourced. Ends are not being met, which is very, very stressful for the workers. It\u2019s very stressful for the workers and, of course, it\u2019s stressful for their families as well. We\u2019ve got to remember that our firefighters and our first responders are also our parents. Some of them are parents and some of them are grandparents, uncles, aunties, and so on and so forth. So what we do here impacts entire communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EPart 3 of the Fire and Emergency New Zealand Act set out the levy framework for Fire and Emergency. It is an insurance-based levy, which means that insurance policy holders are charged a levy based on the type and amount of insurance that they have. In most cases, insurance companies and insurance brokers calculate and collect the amount of levy to be paid to Fire and Emergency, and that\u2019s just part of the functions of it. Part 3 of the Act sets out several matters related to the bill. These are the types of insurance contracts that must pay a levy, the value of property to be used as the basis for calculating the levy, and funding principles for the levy system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EOne of the key changes made by the bill\u2014and it makes some sense to me; I\u2019m not an insurance policy expert, but it\u2019s clear enough to me\u2014is around calculating the key on the sum insured in an insurance contract for fire damage. This change will require the levy to be calculated from the sum insured in an insurance contract, rather than the existing approach, which is to calculate the levy based on the amount insured. The amount insured has an unclear meaning when applied to insurance contracts in practice, so having that cleared up would be one of those things about getting rid of the inefficiencies within the current system. So I\u2019d support that going ahead. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EAnother provision is about charting the levy on contracts of insurance for fire damage. This change will ensure that only contracts for insurance covering physical loss or damage from fire will need to pay the levy. So contracts covering physical loss or damage from fire will need to pay the levy, instead of the current approach for any insurance contract covering physical loss or damage from any other source. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EProbably the concern I have here is that when we talked to our firefighters in the different fire stations\u2014and Green MPs did that right across the country\u2014what we found was that the actual firefighting aspect of their job is just around about 40 percent. So if the main levy is about trying to get it\u2014I\u2019m tracking the funding here\u2014from fire damage, then into the levy, and then into paying for the services, will that appropriately cover all the different things that they do? We\u2019re talking about them being first responders to car crashes and first responders to medical events, and they are responding more and more to flood damage as well, so I think we need to have more discussion about that particular provision, and whether that stuff will carry through directly or whether that\u2019s being handled and done in a different way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003ESo we will be supporting this bill to select committee, but there are a large number of concerns, or a number of concerns\u2014I wouldn\u2019t say that they are large. But I think it\u2019s really important for the Government members to give us some clarity about that and a process in which we can have these discussions in the select committee, because that will give clarity both for front-line workers and their families as well, and for all of us. So we will be supporting this bill. Thanks, Madam Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u0022de035d93fe9f4ebe9ff3218909bb5d09\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de035d93fe9f4ebe9ff3218909bb5d09\u0022\u003ENICOLE McKEE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I stand on behalf of the ACT Party to speak to the Fire and Emergency New Zealand (Levy) Amendment Bill in its first reading. The straightforward approach to this bill is to support it, but to do so with some reservations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EIt delays the provisions that were to come into force on 1 July 2024 back a further two years, to 1 July 2026, specifically on how the levy is calculated and what it applies to. The justification for the delay is a recognition that the provisions were going to be too complicated and potentially costly. Those provisions could end up doing more harm than good. We do question, though, whether this bill is just kicking the can down the road. ACT questions why the Government is delaying these provisions by two years, to 2026, when the original implementation date is still two years away, being 2024. Instead of two years, it\u2019s actually going to become four years before these provisions can be implemented. So that leaves us questioning why the intricacies of implementation cannot be determined over the next two years, and why it requires four years instead; specifically so when our firefighters are literally protesting for help and support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThat being said, on the whole it does make some sense to do this amendment if it means that at some point we have legislation that can be implemented without issue. If we can ensure that our Fire and Emergency New Zealand (FENZ) workers are adequately paid and looked after for the work that they do, we can support that. However, four years is a very long, long time. Our firefighters\u2019 pay has increased by less than 5 percent since Labour took office in 2017, but the administration staff at FENZ have seen at least an 11 percent increase in their pay. Prioritise our firefighters, our front-liners over the next four years, please, because with a mere 5 percent increase in pay, our firefighters are doing so much more than extinguishing fires now. Increasingly, they are attending more and more to assist in all types of emergencies. They turn up to medical emergencies, family harm and domestic violence incidents, suicides, and flooding. They just want to be valued and recognised for the work that they do, and they totally deserve this. Firefighters have told us that they are happy to take on these extra responsibilities and attend at incidents not fire-related because they went into this line of work to serve their communities. But they need to be helped, so that they can help others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThe nationwide recruits\u2019 course for 2022 was cancelled. What was the reason behind this? The rumour is that it was cancelled to save on costs, yet FENZ administration staff did get an 11 percent increase in their pay. Operators who are over 60 years old have been asked to delay their retirement plans so that new and future staff members can be trained before they leave. It is hard to train new firefighters when courses are cancelled or there are no appliances to train new recruits with, let alone there being no recruits to be trained. We are aware that there are firefighters who were enrolled in aerial courses over 2\u00BD years ago, and they still haven\u2019t been able to enter training because there aren\u2019t any appliances for them to train on. We are told of firefighters being given basic two-day St John first aid courses and then are expected to attend some serious medical events. The workers at the centre of the FENZ reconstruction were not consulted about this massive expansion in their job description. Some told us they don\u2019t feel that they\u2019ve had adequate training to deal with some of the issues that they are attending. Their response to medical calls, including respiratory, cardiac, and other life-threatening situations, is leaving them wanting\u2014wanting for further training, wanting for support and financing so that they can continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThis should also include mental health assistance. I know in the short time that I worked for the Rotorua Coroner, some of the situations encountered by our professionals left them in need of help for themselves. They\u2019re now in situations where they themselves have to give help to members of our communities suffering from suicidal tendencies or needing mental health assistance. Many are doing this without adequate training. It is common for firefighters to be working tens of hours of overtime each week due to staffing shortages, attrition, and the sheer lack of recruits. While they dedicate themselves to protecting and helping our communities, the truth is, many of them cannot afford to go by without the money earned from working overtime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EEquipment is failing, mental health assistance is failing, training and recruitment is failing. ACT would like to see provisions in this bill for better fiscal oversight. There are many questions that do need to be asked. If we\u2019re going to keep delaying the difficult questions, should we be investigating alternative avenues such as privatisation? If we want to keep giving firefighters more tasks to do, is the status quo good enough? They\u2019re asking for better wages, less overtime, newer equipment, more staff, more training, better mental health services, among other things. ACT argues that this bill isn\u2019t addressing the hard issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EWe thank our hard-working FENZ front-liners for the work that they do in and for our communities and acknowledge the struggles that they face. We do support the Government getting it right and hence we will support this bill in its first reading. However, we do think addressing some of the issues they are facing now rather than in four years\u2019 time is essential, and we implore this Government to give this the urgency that it deserves. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022 data-id=\u00221cea1f67020443a0bc114af47e498927\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221cea1f67020443a0bc114af47e498927\u0022\u003ETERISA NGOBI (Labour\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E \u5927\u5BB6\u597D and talofa, Madam Speaker. As we\u2019ve heard, the Fire and Emergency New Zealand (Levy) Amendment Bill will ensure changes to the levy framework that will ensure the collection of the Fire and Emergency New Zealand (FENZ) levy is simple and easy to administrate. It will reduce the extra costs and disruption to the system, while adhering to the funding principles set out in section 80 of the Fire and Emergency New Zealand Act 2017. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003EWhile this bill changes the way the levy is collected, it does not change the amount that is collected. So it will not increase or decrease the funding to FENZ. This is an important piece of legislation. Really happy to support it, but before I finish my contribution, I want to say thank you to the firefighters in the \u014Ctaki electorate, up and down the coast, many who I know, but a special shout-out to William Watters, a firefighter in Christchurch, who is my brother. We\u2019re very proud of you. Thank you for your service, for your sacrifice, and to all the FENZ workers out there, thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f099e0af5ea144cb9af9b3a0b06b5118\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f099e0af5ea144cb9af9b3a0b06b5118\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: I call, Joseph Mooney\u2014five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4ece902b6464767a7a3dad782fd306b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4ece902b6464767a7a3dad782fd306b\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise as the member of Parliament for Southland, on behalf of National Party, to speak in respect of the Fire and Emergency New Zealand (Levy) Amendment Bill. This bill makes some minor tweaks, which the National Party supports; however, it does bring to mind fiddling while Rome burns, because this is an incredibly challenging time that the Fire and Emergency New Zealand (FENZ) members are facing. There won\u2019t be a member of this House who has not received many, many emails from people who are very concerned about what is happening with FENZ and asking us to get involved and to assist. Although this bill does make some, as I said, minor amendments, which are useful ones, it doesn\u2019t address the fundamental issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EI was a volunteer firefighter for a number of years, and I know just how great the contribution of firefighters around New Zealand is. These are people who have their heart in the community. Their first and foremost concern is for the community, literally putting their lives on the line. It can be any time of the day or night, at no notice, and their families have to see their loved ones go away to protect and care for other members of the community\u2014and literally, as I say, at times put their lives on the line. So I have a deep empathy for the concerns that are being expressed by these firefighters around New Zealand. I certainly hope every member of this House has been going to their local fire station and talking with people on the ground to find out what\u2019s happening, because firefighters don\u2019t just fight fires; they respond to 96 percent of all ambulance out-of-hospital cardiac arrests around the country. Yet they are poorly trained and receive no recognition for this work and increased exposure to trauma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThe number of career firefighters has barely changed since the 1990s despite the significant growth in population and other risks in the community, but the corporate administrative arm of FENZ has increased by more than 200 employees. Career stations are regularly closed or fire trucks left unstaffed due to the lack of firefighters. The only way to increase career firefighters is to recruit, but FENZ cancelled the April 2022 recruit course. This bill is not addressing these issues. Career firefighters are fatigued, routinely working more than 60 hours a week, with some working up to 100 hours a week to keep the stations open. Almost daily, the 111 emergency call centres are operating below minimum staffing, sometimes leaving one dispatcher to cover the whole of the South Island. This is unsafe and impacts on the quality of service to the public. Again this bill is not addressing that issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EAuckland has only two heavy aerial appliances, needed for high-rise and large buildings, which regularly break down. In 1984, the 800,000 population, which Auckland then had, had the protection of five heavy aerial appliances. The most recent procurement of hose has been removed from fire trucks due to repeated instances of the hose failing, leaving firefighters in burning buildings without water. I have fought fires, and the idea of fighting a fire and not having water because the hose fails is absolutely horrifying. This is something, again, that the Government should be focusing on, should be addressing. It is not being addressed in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EFENZ automatically provides income protection life insurance to its management and its corporate administration roles; yet, it is refusing to provide an allowance to enable career firefighters to access medical insurance and income protection insurance. FENZ\u00A0spent $10 million rebranding signage while career stations have closed due to black mould and asbestos. Other career stations have less than 50 percent seismic ratings, and almost half of all career fire stations do not have sprinkler systems. There is a great irony: half of all career fire stations do not have sprinkler systems. This is a public safety issue, as closed stations or insufficient firefighters means a fire truck has to come from further afield. I have been speaking to folks in my region, who are expressing these concerns. They don\u2019t want to speak up. They don\u2019t want to be out there protesting. They want to be out there looking after their communities. Their focus is very much on serving and protecting the communities that they live and work in, but they are deeply concerned that the community\u2019s safety is being put at risk by not having the resources that they need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EFENZ has a revenue of $661 million\u2014$200 million was forecast for when the merger occurred; $460 million in capital has been spent over the last five years; $460 million capital. It\u2019s an eye-watering amount of money. Yet FENZ has not been able to resolve issues with its lack of staff, poor resourcing and procurement, and bullying and mismanagement. We in the National Party want to see these addressed before any policy is implemented. Labour and Minister Tinetti need to make sure that FENZ has its spending priorities straight. With that, like I say, these are some minor amendments, but we cannot fiddle while Rome burns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00223e06a75e337947a8866ad5e559504f05\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e06a75e337947a8866ad5e559504f05\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m very happy to stand in support of this bill, which is really just clarifying and improving the way levies are collected and set in the fire and emergency sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EFirstly, I was astounded to hear the ACT Party suggest that we should privatise the fire service, of all things. I\u2019m glad that it is the only party, I\u2019m sure, with such an extreme view. One of our most important services, and they would throw it on to the private sector. In fact, that\u2019s where it originally came from, and the fire engines would go along and look to see whether there was an insurance plaque on the house that was burning and they\u2019d only put it out if it had been insured. We soon worked out that that wasn\u2019t a good way to protect cities from huge fires which would ravage\u2014we saw the public interest in a fire service. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EBut I just actually really wanted to touch on the commencement date, because there\u2019s been some suggestion that this is, you know, in some way dilatory. But, in fact, it\u2019s the insurance sector that\u2019s asked for this. There\u2019s three things; first of all, this bill\u2019s going to come back to this House next year and be passed in the first half of the year; then, of course, regulations will need to be set under the Act in light of the legislation; and then the insurance industry will need to put in place the appropriate computer programmes, and what have you, to collect the levy in accordance with those new rules. So, in fact, 1 July 2026 is not that far away, given that time line, entirely appropriate. That\u2019s why that commencement date\u2019s been put in there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EGood to see that this bill will be supported through this reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022f731500c32f14a97aee2761b11da55f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f731500c32f14a97aee2761b11da55f6\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d just like to add to the comments of my colleague Dr Duncan Webb, because although it\u2019s only ACT that has this extreme view about privatising the fire service, can you imagine what a National-ACT coalition might have to do in their agreements, and what kind of privatisation deals we\u2019ll get: will it be the Police, will it be the prisons, will it be the schools?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ELook, many years ago I did a TV series following firefighters around. I\u2019d just like to add my gratitude for the incredible work that they do, not only at the scenes of fires but also car accidents and other harrowing situations. I\u2019d like to acknowledge them today because there are firefighters who have joined the defence conference next door in the Grand Hall, looking at issues of equity and gender. So they really are making some strides in the way that they are managing some of their cultural shifts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EToday, I\u2019m wearing a pin called the huia pin, which is actually a Police pin, which is around Police Remembrance Day, which is tomorrow. I\u2019d like to also acknowledge firefighters as well, because we know that many of them have workplace risks around smoke inhalation and so on. So I\u2019m just thinking about all those who serve on the front line, and add my gratitude.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI can\u2019t believe Todd Muller would think that this Government was lazy and not steaming ahead. MinterEllisonRuddWatts said in 2017 that they acknowledge this Government for listening and not persevering with a regime that wasn\u2019t going to work. I quote from an article they published: \u201Cthe Government is to be commended for acknowledging the unintended consequences of the change and abandoning it, rather than trying to salvage it with complex carve-outs and other measures, which might have been more politically expedient but would have been risky and inefficient.\u201D That is the reason for the delay. The devil was in the detail, as the article says. I\u2019m not going to go into the complexities, but this piece of work that we have in front of us today has taken all of that thinking and listening into account in a timely way. I support the bill and I\u2019m really pleased that we\u2019ve got to the place we have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae264037b3624bb8b98e416a681a145d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae264037b3624bb8b98e416a681a145d\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s nice to see Ms Leary wearing the huia pin, but, as a former Minister of Police, before she goes into a station, she might want to turn it around. It\u2019s actually worn the other way around. Rather important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ENow, Jamie Strange rebukes Matt Doocey for being negative, so I\u2019m going to put a positive spin on this debate. I am absolutely positive that this Government has made a complete hash of the fire and emergency service when it has been in Government. The fact that we are here five years after the Fire and Emergency New Zealand Act was passed, tinkering around the edges of a levy reform process that should be faster and deeper and more comprehensive than it is is another emblematic symbol of this Government\u2019s flaccid, slow, and lazy approach to policy making. The idea that Duncan Webb puts forward that this is necessary and appropriate because the Insurance Council wanted it\u2014well, actually, it\u2019s the Government that makes policy. Lobbyists lobby; Governments listen, then they act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s look at the time line, because it\u2019s not the four years; it\u2019s the nine years since the Act was passed that Labour now expect us to believe is appropriate. Five years since the Act was passed, five years since they came to office, and then another four years from now before these levy changes are made. And yet, rather inexplicably, the Government wants the select committee to do its job in a shortened report-back period of just a little over four months. So they\u2019ve taken five years to get to the start line, they\u2019re going to take another four years to get to the finish line for that excellent committee, the Governance and Administration Committee\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7a4e86706a3499fa10a878ffe50bce0\u0022\u003ETodd Muller\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, sensational committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d05b99adf0004d4abaf94e6d8cdb83c6\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014fine committee it is, Mr Muller. I\u2019m proud to be on it; it only gets a little over four months. That\u2019s not an issue for the Governance and Administration Committee. We are efficient, we are collegial, we\u2019ll do a good job, but the submitters are being disrespected once again. Now, the Government could say, \u201COh, well, it\u2019s only a small change.\u201D, but, actually, this is going to affect a significant number of people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ENow, I want to add my acknowledgment and thanks to the tremendous and very professional men and women of the New Zealand fire and emergency services\u2014obviously our professional wing\u2014and, as Mr Muller said, just about every single National member of Parliament has been out there providing solidarity. That\u2019s an odd word for a National member to say in the context of an industrial dispute, but on the unprecedented first one-hour strike, Erica Stanford and I\u2014she was in Dunedin with me\u2014called in to the Lookout Point and Dunedin stations. I have to say, there was not trepidation\u2014I thought we would be reasonably well-received\u2014but the warmth and the sense of collegiality and gratitude for our concern of their lot was very, very palpable. I want to pay tribute to them. They are the people that keep my community safe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI must say, on the wall of the staff room at the Dunedin Central Fire Station, there is a picture of two vehicles, Mr Deputy Speaker, and you\u2019ll be very familiar with one of them. It was a police car from 1987. I think it was a Mitsubishi. It was black in those days. Beside it, was a fire appliance from 1987. The point of the photo was that the fire appliance from 1987 is still in the garage in Cumberland Street at the Dunedin Central Fire Station, having been cobbled together. Now, I don\u2019t think that\u2019s acceptable for police, and indeed, they have a very modern fleet. Why doesn\u2019t the fire service have the same\u2014I was going to say privilege; that\u2019s the wrong word\u2014right to have the tools that they need to do a job well and professionally? They\u2019re being let down. Goodness knows where all of that money has gone, because it has been raised by the levies that we are changing by this bill\u2014a significant investment, apparently, in capital. Well, it hasn\u2019t got to the front line as far as they can see. There was another appliance there, a seven-year-old one where the left rear door had to be opened using a pair of pliers, and the parts weren\u2019t available to be able to replace the interior of the door. That\u2019s just not acceptable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not just our professional wing; our volunteers actually pay twice. They pay their levies, and then they pay with their time in places like Cromwell, Kurow, Roxburgh, and others up and down this great country. We are tremendously well served by people who put their time and risk their safety for us. Then, of course, the third leg of that treble is our rural fire service. Of course, as someone who spends a lot of time in the outback in Central Otago, we are about to go into what I think is predicted to be one of the hottest summers we\u2019ve had for a while. That dries out the fuel, that raises the risk of bush and forest fires, and the rural fire service will be there for us when we need them. It\u2019s a pity that the Government isn\u2019t there for them when they are needed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThe other very disappointing aspect of this bill is that, as I say, it doesn\u2019t dive deeply enough into the questions of how we levy or what we levy, because, as both Mr Muller and Mr Mooney pointed out, a significant amount of the work that\u2019s done by Fire and Emergency New Zealand is not related to fires and it\u2019s not related to emergencies based on structures. I think this is an opportunity lost. One would have thought that if it was going to be a nine-year journey to get to a new levy framework, the Government could have taken that time to dive a little more deeply into the issues that were being discussed when I was around the Cabinet table in 2016 and 2017, about a fair and efficient levy process that broadens the levy base. You know, we do that in our tax framework. We do it in our ACC framework. We have a broad base. The broader the base, the lower the rate, effectively, and the less it is that people are\u2014not freeloading, that\u2019s an unfortunate use of language, but there are a number of things that are stated exceptions to the fire service levy. Many of them are Government-owned. I don\u2019t think that should necessarily be the case in the long run, but there is also a significant part of the service that\u2019s provided by Fire and Emergency New Zealand that\u2019s not related to fires. Now, motor vehicle accidents is one and indeed, a levy appropriately is paid by motor vehicle owners through their insurance. Actually, that\u2019s one of the good parts of this bill. I think that is a decent tidy-up to include the third-party insurance and so on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EBut, certainly down my way, and I think it\u2019s still the case, there is a thing called the Primary Response in Medical Emergencies (PRIME) service, which is primary response in medical emergencies. Very often in remote and rural communities, the PRIME responders are members of Fire and Emergency New Zealand. There\u2019s no levy for that\u2014no levy for that whatsoever. There\u2019s a significant amount of equipment and capital, and for those stations that do have a paid staff, there is a cost that I think it\u2019s appropriate for the levy at least to be adjusted for. Whether that\u2019s the domestic homeowner levy or some other way\u2014I mean, we do this with ACC all the time. We have a levy framework that\u2019s based on risk, based on employers. It\u2019s different in industries and sectors, and whether we\u2019re on the rugby field or in our cars or in our hospitals, it\u2019s a mature levy framework. Actually, I think the Department of Internal Affairs would do worse than pop along to the good people at ACC and ask for some advice about how to broaden and deepen the base, because the broader the base, the lower the cost on individuals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ESo, yes, we support this. I look forward to it coming to the Governance and Administration Committee, I hope and trust that the unusual haste that the Government has for the select committee process will not mean that the submitters\u2014because bear in mind that four months and a bit period includes the summer break. So we\u2019re going to be rushing into the middle of December, taking a break, and then working out how on earth we\u2019re going to get the report back in a meaningful way by the middle of February. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8c358904e70444b8dcfd31573d4a54d\u0022\u003ERachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, you\u2019re a great committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211994fb4d7514937b838380c7390e294\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: So that four and a half months is really three months, because, actually, it\u2019s not the MPs that need the break, Ms Brooking; it\u2019s the staff, the Clerk\u2019s Office, and the report writers. But apparently the party of the worker doesn\u2019t care about the worker quite so much. Well, we do, and we\u2019ll be making sure that they do get a decent summer break, and we\u2019ll do our best to report back to the House in a timely manner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022 data-id=\u0022310978d5ed2e4f1380bad5b71ebe5628\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022310978d5ed2e4f1380bad5b71ebe5628\u0022\u003EDAN ROSEWARNE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Speaker. It is my pleasure to take this last call on the first reading of the Fire and Emergency New Zealand (Levy) Amendment Bill. As we all know, the insurance companies and brokers collect the levy from the policyholders and they pay it to Fire and Emergency New Zealand (FENZ). The levy is the primary way in which FENZ\u2019s activities are funded. Since the principal Act was enacted, further information has become available on the implementation of the levy and how the existing Part 3 levy will likely be applied in practice. Without amendment, the existing Part 3 provisions are likely to create a bit of complexity and uncertainty, and this will lead to implementation and admin costs, as well as making levy calculations less predictable and stable for FENZ, the insurance sector, and also policyholders as well. So it\u2019s worth noting that the changes in the way that the levy is collected will not reduce the amount that is collected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003EAs this is the final call, I would like to extend our thanks to the Insurance Council of New Zealand, the Insurance Brokers Association of New Zealand, and the Property Council of New Zealand, as well as FENZ, who provided some fantastic feedback in the exposure draft. So I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acf78260-1a45-46a5-bc98-1a34a13ec1d1\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002228d11f3f9f6a443b931a0f47b4b6a91e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228d11f3f9f6a443b931a0f47b4b6a91e\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the Fire and Emergency New Zealand (Levy) Amendment Bill be considered by the Governance and Administration Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Governance and Administration Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227907551384244ab98a084d202a802a53\u0022\u003EInstruction to Governance and Administration Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00220c2cf9801b67486f8c44e2907eeba0a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c2cf9801b67486f8c44e2907eeba0a6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister of Internal Affairs: I move, That the Fire and Emergency New Zealand (Levy) Amendment Bill be reported to the House by 16 February 2023. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e33afca442a24460acecd9f15b9b6d62\u0022\u003EAnimal Welfare Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022df5951405b8d49e3b07ec6dc1c5ee83b\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc913dd3bf73415ca5cea7d36675e02d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc913dd3bf73415ca5cea7d36675e02d\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Animal Welfare Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227494fd33022a452196fbbcbcbd2205b0\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f339771ddad4cd09747c26fb45eaabb\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Animal Welfare Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to reiterate, firstly, at the start of this third reading, my thanks to the Primary Production Committee for their examination of this bill during the select committee stage, and all submitters for their time and contribution to the Animal Welfare Amendment Bill. I move that the bill be now read a third time. It amends the Animal Welfare Act 1999 to ban the export of livestock by sea and shows our Government\u2019s commitment to upholding New Zealand\u2019s reputation for high standards in animal welfare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s vital that we stay ahead of the curve in a world where animal welfare is under more and more scrutiny. Both National and ACT have expressed different views, in which they believe that a focus should be made on regulatory improvement. However, we already have a world-leading regulatory system for the export of livestock and no improvement would have been enough to protect the welfare of these animals and to protect New Zealand\u2019s reputation. There\u2019s plenty of evidence, as seen at the select committee, to prove that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe Government started a review of the livestock export trade in 2019 in response to concerns that the trade could be a risk to our reputation. The objective of the review was to provide New Zealanders an opportunity to reflect on how we can improve the welfare of livestock being exported. The review consulted on several options, including both regulatory improvement and a complete ban on the trade. The Cabinet paper and decisions around the future of livestock exports was delayed due to the Government\u2019s response to COVID-19. During this time, we were faced with the tragic sinking of Gulf Livestock 1 in September 2020. This was the seventh livestock ship to have been sunk since 2009, globally. Beyond the devastating loss of life\u2014and I\u2019d like to acknowledge the families of all those people who lost their lives\u2014I want to acknowledge the fact that the sinking highlighted the concerns and the risks the trade posed to animal welfare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ERather than initiate the decision to ban the trade, the sinking highlighted the concerns and the risks the trade poses to animal welfare. Since the Gulf Livestock 1 sank, an eighth livestock vessel, the Al Badri 1, has also sunk, this time off the coast of Sudan. This sinking resulted in the death of over 15,000 sheep. The regular occurrence of such tragedies has the potential to inflict lasting damage to New Zealand\u2019s reputation in trade, no matter how high we set animal welfare standards for the voyages and everyone\u2019s best efforts. The regulatory impact statement from the Ministry for Primary Industries acknowledges that risks associated with this trade are real and that there are limitations to our control over animals\u2019 welfare once they are loaded on the boat and leave this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EOn 14 April 2021, I announced the Government\u2019s decision to ban the export of cattle, deer, goats, and sheep by ship, with a transition period of up to two years. In announcing the proposed ban of livestock exports by sea, Cabinet considered several factors when making their decision, including animal welfare performance, trade, reputational impacts, and economic opportunities and risks. Decisions like this involve a number of technical aspects as well as values-based judgments. At the heart of our decision is upholding New Zealand\u2019s reputation for high standards of animal welfare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI continue to acknowledge the economic benefit some get from the trade, but support for it is not universal. There are different opinions on its long-term value among farmers, how it affects New Zealand\u2019s commitment to animal welfare, and our image in the eyes of international consumers. I acknowledge that those involved in the trade have made improvements over recent years, but the long voyage times and the journey through the tropics to the Northern Hemisphere, which is often the case for these markets, will always impose animal welfare challenges. Despite the best efforts of industry and the Ministry for Primary Industries, as well as any regulatory measures that we could put in place, as long as the trade continues, the risk to animal welfare and our reputation will remain. We\u2019ve also seen an increase in consumer focus on perceptions of animal welfare in a number of markets, such as the United States, the EU, and the UK. With these market-led insights in mind, recurrent negative animal welfare incidents and reports could inflict lasting damage on New Zealand\u2019s reputation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI acknowledge that demand for livestock exports by sea has increased over recent years; however, they still only amount to approximately 0.2 percent of our primary sector export revenues since 2015. The Government has set a two-year transition period for the trade, which will end on 30 April 2023. This allows stakeholders and our trading partners time to adopt alternative options and to give those farmers and others involved in the trade enough time to change their business models. We recognise the importance that our relationships with our international partners have and have discussed the decision to ban livestock exports by sea with them. They are aware of why we\u2019ve come to this decision, and I\u2019m informed that most of the other affected parties\u2014exporters, farmers, trading partners, and importers\u2014are aware of the ban and understand the intent of the transition period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EDuring the transition period, we are continuing with improvements being made to the trade. Following the loss of Gulf Livestock 1 and the independent Heron review, a series of recommendations were implemented immediately, and longer-term improvements have been made and will continue to be implemented as part of the livestock exports continuous improvement work programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ENew Zealand needs to stay at the forefront to maintain its reputation as an exporter with high standards of animal welfare. Our commitment to these high standards has already shown its value when animal welfare discussions have been brought up in successfully concluded free-trade agreement negotiations with both the United Kingdom and with the European Union. Making this change to the Animal Welfare Act 1999 will prohibit the live export of cattle, deer, goats, and sheep by ship from 30 April 2023, reinforcing and building on New Zealand\u2019s reputation as a safe, ethical producer of high-quality products.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI\u2019d just like, in conclusion, to say that this is a significant step forward for New Zealand. We are seeing around the globe other countries considering the same ban. We are at the bottom of the Pacific, where travel times are longer than for most, from pretty much every other country, perhaps other than Chile\u2014again, where a bill has been talked about to ban exports. We are keeping ahead of the curve. The reputation that we have for the finest quality food and fibre nutrition into the world markets, generated by our forebears, must be maintained by us into the future. And, in a world where consumers and supermarkets and everyone are looking at animal welfare standards and animal protein, we have to ensure that we produce the best, for the best, with the best systems, and the best values.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ENew Zealand can indeed aspire to be, and deliver on being, the best country for the world, supported by the best farmers in the world, with the best systems in the world. I therefore, on that note, commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00225514f43ade234c918591fae648a6d8bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225514f43ade234c918591fae648a6d8bc\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022df8eb14a15e844d5baf9cc4cc5598fc8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df8eb14a15e844d5baf9cc4cc5598fc8\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki - King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. First up, I would like to acknowledge the loss of life that happened with the sinking of Gulf Livestock 1. It\u2019s often something that\u2019s forgotten in this whole debate. Always, often when we speak about this, I think about those families that have lost family members. Now, while at the front end of this, I wouldn\u2019t disagree with a lot of the words that the Minister used when he made the speech preceding mine around the highest standards of animal welfare and the opportunities we have to show that to other countries in the world. However, when we had the select committee during this process, we actually saw some pretty good gold-standard opportunities to do this in this very industry. That, I think, is what is really disappointing. We saw a range, and we actually saw some quite horrific options, which we also believe should never have seen the opportunity to be able to export animals. But what I will say is that the industry came along and they supported in good faith the select committee process. We do have a very good Primary Production Committee under the chairmanship of Jo Luxton, and I have to say that the committee worked well together, but National is very disappointed that nothing that the submitters said during this process was able to change any of the dynamics of the bill as it went forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EWhile the Minister says that it\u2019s only 0.2 percent of our exports, and it sounds like a very little matter for New Zealand, this matter is a very big matter for those people who are currently in the live export trade business. It\u2019s not a little matter to them, and it feels a little bit like it\u2019s been diminished because it\u2019s only a small part of our wonderful opportunity to export and show the world what we do. So I\u2019d like to say we were very disappointed on this side of the House with the result of the select committee\u2014not so much the process, because as I say, it\u2019s a very good committee to work in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EI think one of the things that the Minister\u2019s missing in this\u2014well, there\u2019s a few things that the Minister is missing in this, actually, but one of them was the quote from him saying that \u201Cit\u2019s putting our international reputation in the hands of a small number of people who are trading livestock, and in my view was not worth the risk, which is why we are proceeding with this legislation.\u201D Now, time and time again, I have asked the Minister what evidence he has brought to bear\u2014and he did mention a couple of conversations that he had throughout the trade deals recently\u2014but I\u2019ve asked what evidence the Minister based this decision on, because what has been shown in the regulatory impact statement was that up to the point of looking at this decision and the sinking of the Gulf Livestock 1, there was very little evidence and there wasn\u2019t a whole lot of data from the Ministry for Primary Industries to show the variation in this business, to show exactly how good the gold-standard people are, or to show quite how bad the others were. It took a tragedy to bring a lot of that to life. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EI believe that the Ministry for Primary Industries have done a lot of work on that since, and that\u2019s where it came down to the recommendation of a couple of options: whether it be a ban on the livestock export or whether it be continuing livestock export but with stronger regulatory and non-regulatory interventions\u2014a consolidation of some of the options that were put up originally. We do notice that the Ministry for Primary Industries initially went one way and said, \u201CActually, we think that better regulation would be the option that we would be able to take on with this.\u201D But it just seems that they did a turn on the way through. Obviously, Cabinet made a decision that they wanted the ban to happen. Unfortunately, anything that was said about the other option, with stronger regulation, from that point on wasn\u2019t taken into account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ESo the Minister hasn\u2019t really given any evidence as to why this couldn\u2019t be improved with a stronger regulatory system. The industry is up for it. They\u2019ve asked for it. I think the biggest disappointment in all of this is particularly around the timing of it, because we\u2019ve got a challenge in our livestock industries that we need to solve, and that is around bobby calves. Bobby calves is one of those\u2014you know, to have milk or to have animals, we need animals to calve, and we have surplus animals and we don\u2019t need them all. Unfortunately, people do not like to see four-day-old calves going to bobby. So a lot of these calves were actually being grown, put on the ships, and actually exported for a better life. That came into the debate quite a lot as we went through the select committee process as well, because there seemed to be a lot of suspicion about some of the places that we were exporting these animals to. But we also got some very good presentations at great lengths from the other end of the supply chain to show that these animals were being well looked after. I have to scratch my head with anyone having the suggestion that they may not be looked after, because these animals were actually worth good money. It might be 0.2 percent of what we trade, but actually, these animals were worth good money and I can\u2019t imagine why anybody at the other end of the supply chain would pay such good money for an animal that they had no intention of looking after. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ESo I just want to mention a couple of quotes here from people during the select committee process. One of them was Mark Willis, the chairman of Livestock Export New Zealand, who said his organisation had created the so-called gold standard, a leading welfare assurance programme that he wanted to see implemented. It\u2019s a high-level risk mitigation document. We saw a lot of evidence about putting an extra five days\u2019 worth of food supplies on boats in case there was a hold-up. And let\u2019s face it, most of us saw the conditions that Gulf Livestock 1 sank in, and it should never have been in that situation. They\u2019re putting extra food on these boats to make sure that if they do get into a situation where they couldn\u2019t cross a certain area due to rough seas, that they had enough feed for the animals. Mr Willis said that rather than banning exports, he called on the Government to create the appropriate regulatory framework to ensure the standard was adhered to. No one\u2019s arguing with that, because it\u2019s extremely important. What he said at the time, and from what we\u2019ve seen in the regulatory impact statement, the lack of regulation rather than the export trade has actually been the issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EAnother submitter, David Lindsay of Gladvale Farms, said the ban would be pretty significant as the export market has proved to be a very good, important outlet for our unrequired calves, which was actually the issue that I just brought up a moment ago. Not only that, but profits made from exporting animals have been reinvested back into the business. And according to Lindsay, Gladvale\u2019s turnover from the export trade is more than a million dollars a year. So for some businesses, that is very significant. But I also remember a submission from a person from Northland who talked about the effects of jobs in their local communities. That a lot of employment is actually not just the shipowners but the employment of the people in the local communities was expressed during the time that we went through this select committee process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ESo we at National see this bill is a kneejerk reaction to a maritime disaster. It was actually a maritime disaster that caused this, not the industry\u2019s inability to hold up and carry out this trade in a fashion which supports our animal welfare. A survey has been done\u2014and I\u2019m probably going to say this word wrong\u2014but the Voconiq survey was done amongst a wide range of New Zealanders, and over 60 percent of the community members preferred to increase the animal welfare standard for live export instead of prohibition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ESo on this side of the House, National are always looking about how we can make improvements, and taxing and banning things is not the way to get improvements with either our industries or our country. I think we\u2019re better than that. I think that we can actually sit down and work out processes to make things better without feeling like we have to turn around and ban things because a few people say they don\u2019t like them. You know, there were a lot of form submitters, but the ones who came in the room gave us a very good example around how they could do gold standard. We do not support this piece of legislation. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022 data-id=\u002237c3633c55aa41f5a3f8f0d2ee747b6e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237c3633c55aa41f5a3f8f0d2ee747b6e\u0022\u003EHon MEKA WHAITIRI (Associate Minister of Agriculture (Animal Welfare)):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai o te Whare, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. Otir\u0101, e nga mema katoa e te Whare nei, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. I\u2019m pleased to talk on the Animal Welfare Amendment Bill in its third and final reading. Can I, too, add my condolences to those that lost their lives tragically with the sinking of Gulf Livestock 1. As a result, the Heron and Tony Parr reports looked into our live exports and the Government has made a decision, weighing up the options, to ban live export. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EI just want to raise a couple of issues as the Minister responsible for animal welfare. My own independent advisory group, the National Animal Welfare Advisory Committee, also asked for live exports to be banned, and they are charged with\u2014both scientists and veterinarians on that working committee\u2014giving independent animal welfare advice to the Government of the day. So they asked for it. But, more importantly, in acknowledging the former speaker as a member of the Primary Production Committee, of which I am not a member, I do want to acknowledge all members on the Primary Production Committee, particularly led by Jo Luxton, our chair, in hearing the various views. And they were mixed views, according to the select committee report that has come back to the House. There were definitely those that wanted it to remain, and there was reference around the gold standard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EThere were also those submitters that said we should move a lot earlier than the two-year transition period that we\u2019re giving, that this bill would enable. And as the Minister responsible for agriculture and trade, who has been at the forefront of these new free-trade agreements that we have formed, animal welfare is an enormous consideration for those countries that we trade with. So it is a reputational risk that we\u2019re dealing with here and we are putting our primary industries to the forefront because we acknowledge that we are some of the best farmers in the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EBut, more importantly, is the role of our animals here. I want to talk about, to members in this House\u2014and it was a maritime issue, but we can\u2019t lose sight that putting livestock in ships in Aotearoa New Zealand to generally go to the northern hemisphere, of days in pens and whatnot, cannot be good for the animal; it cannot be good. I want to say, despite some of the changes that the exporters could make on ships, by reducing numbers, by putting veterinarians in\u2014I\u2019m well aware of that\u2014ultimately, they are in a stall and they are sentient animals. For members here: look in the Animal Welfare Act. They do actually have feelings. Just imagine putting animals on a 10, 20, 30-hour trip by sea\u2014it cannot be good for their welfare. And so it is very clear that putting animals in a ship and shipping them for long distances is not good for the animal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EBut more importantly, what this bill is doing is addressing and protecting our well-regarded reputation as some of the best farmers internationally. Having returned back from both India and also from Singapore\u2014we are well regarded, but we cannot get ahead of ourselves and we\u2019ve got to stay ahead of the expectations that we are not only good producers of food, safe producers of food, but we look after our natural environment, we look after our people, and, more importantly, we look after our animals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003ESo, with that small contribution, I commend the Animal Welfare Amendment Bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bd8c87d2f8a470496108a4574390076\u0022\u003EJo Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224590a8804600431f939abd6ad4a082c4\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022d50719c264334a06990b209b0d38c908\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d50719c264334a06990b209b0d38c908\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Tim van de Molen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219464acbca354d15989eac6287e32065\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e574f7489cb04dca9ccb7a4a85ac4a98\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The lucky Tim van de Molen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u00229ae4b2940f9048c183270e7d4c00edb3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ae4b2940f9048c183270e7d4c00edb3\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Look, this bill is a bit of an overreaction and we\u2019ve heard some of the reasons for it; obviously coming originally from the tragedy of the sinking of the Gulf Livestock 1, which was a horrific accident and no one wants to see a repeat of that. But ultimately, where we\u2019ve got to with this piece of legislation is far above and beyond what we needed to see. Ultimately, a number of changes could have been made to look at improving the specific animal welfare concerns. I would note that, obviously in that instance\u2014the sinking of that vessel\u2014there was loss of all the livestock on board and, of course, the human loss of life as well, which was terrible. But actually, in most of these situations, the animal welfare standards are good. The loss of animal life on vessels is minimal\u2014very low; about 0.1 percent\u2014and often animal condition improves over the course of the journey. So on that basis it\u2019s a little bit hard to understand exactly what the challenge is that we\u2019re trying to fix. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EOf course, I\u2019m very proud to be a part of the food and fibre sector in New Zealand, and we have a fantastic history of continuing to innovate, to evolve, to adapt, to improve our way of operating. I think if we look at how we farm now, it\u2019s certainly a lot better than 10, 20, 50 years ago, because those practices have continued to improve and I\u2019m confident that will be the case going forward as well. On that basis, when we look at the opportunity for improvement, that\u2019s something that we continually test ourselves against: how could we do this better? What might be different if we were to adapt our practices? And part of that, of course, is led by the market expectations, and that\u2019s as well it should be, because if our customers in the many export markets that we have around the world are saying that they do or don\u2019t want a particular practice to occur, then our opportunity is to respond to that, to either capture additional sales into that market or to gain additional revenue by adhering to better practices than other competitors perhaps may do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EThese are just some of the natural mechanisms of how markets operate. We don\u2019t actually need the Government to come in with their heavy hand every time and tell us how best to do it. That just seems to be what we\u2019re seeing time and time again in this House, and particularly over the last week or so with some of the bills that I\u2019ve been speaking on: the DIRA bill last week, the Deposit Takers Bill yesterday, the Fisheries Amendment Bill are all examples, as well as this bill now, where the Government is imposing additional impositions in terms of cost, in terms of control that is not necessarily required to actually achieve improved outcomes. They just don\u2019t have confidence that businesses or the market can actually evolve and adapt. I guess that\u2019s a difference that we have on this side of the House, where we do trust those players to do the right thing, to continually look for the opportunity to improve their business practice and to capture additional value off the back of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ENow, we actually saw that through the regulatory impact statement for this Animal Welfare Amendment Bill, suggesting that\u2014from the Ministry for Primary Industries\u2014one of the potential options was to just focus on enhancing those animal welfare standards. And that\u2019s certainly something that we have said we are quite open to. We are very much aware that there are continual areas where things can be improved, and so that would be an avenue that we could do better on. The contrast here is that actually if we stop this altogether\u2014as is being proposed here, as will come into effect now\u2014we\u2019re going to end up with an issue where we have a lot of additional stock in New Zealand, and what happens to those? So the current bobby calf market is the issue that, in my mind, is a bigger one in the global context when you look at the consumer\u2019s expectations around sustainability, around animal welfare, their perception of those things, and also wanting to have a good food experience when they\u2019re making their purchasing decisions. There could rightly be some concerns around what has been a traditional part of our dairy sector for many years but is getting increasing pressure to evolve as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EThis bill exacerbates that issue by stopping the export opportunity. It means that there will be more animals sent on the bobby trucks instead, and that seems counter-productive in terms of the New Zealand brand in the global context. And that is ultimately what we are looking at here as well, is how do we enhance that brand? We are very much an export-oriented nation. We export some 95-odd percent of what we produce, from a food and fibre perspective, here in New Zealand. We need to make sure that we are doing everything we can to capture the most value for those products in the markets that we export to, and, indeed, to create additional market opportunities where we can as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ENow, it\u2019s a little bit like what we\u2019re seeing in the pork industry too, where we already import 60-odd percent of our pork consumed in New Zealand, and here we are with the Government looking to create even harsher restrictions on the pork sector, which will lead to even more imported pork from countries that don\u2019t have the same animal welfare standards as us. And that, again, is just a simply perverse outcome and just shows that we aren\u2019t seeing a Government going to that next step of thinking around what are the unintended or even expected consequences of making some of these changes. It\u2019s not necessarily rocket science; some of these are pretty clear outcomes that we would expect if a change\u2014such as has been put forward here, or in the pork industry\u2014is experienced, then of course you\u2019re going to see some of those aspects coming through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ESadly, there\u2019s a number of farmers in my Waikato electorate that have experienced significant economic gain from being able to partake in the export of live animals, and often it\u2019s some of those younger farmers, sharemilkers, or farm owners. It\u2019s a little bit of an opportunity to capture some additional revenue when things might be a bit tough, by looking at the export trade. Now, depending on breed\u2014it\u2019s not for every farmer, of course, but there are opportunities there, and we\u2019ve seen estimates of up to half a billion dollars\u2019 worth of contribution to our economy. Now, every dollar we can get at the moment is going to help us. Times are tough for a lot of businesses, and we continue to see these cost impositions; the cost of living crisis, obviously, but on-farm you look at things like fuel prices, fertiliser prices, energy prices, the cost of labour if you can find labour, all of these areas are really putting pressure on the bottom line of farmers. Thankfully, we\u2019ve had a very good pay-out announced by Fonterra last week. The dairy sector has been doing well, but that is a pay-out level that is needed at the moment to sustain businesses with the massive costs that they are experiencing. So taking away the opportunity for another half a billion dollars\u2019 worth of revenue for our dairy sector is a disappointing outcome, and it\u2019s one that we don\u2019t support, unfortunately. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EAlso, I\u2019m really disappointed with the way the process was managed in terms of the time for submitters and the, I guess, value placed on their thoughts and processes as well. We heard a wide range of different views in support, and in opposition, to this bill. Yet we saw Government, again, had an ideological view\u2014didn\u2019t even listen to the Ministry for Primary Industries\u2019 view in the regulatory impact statement, or any of the submitters, and said, \u201CThis is just what we\u2019re doing and we\u2019re getting on with it.\u201D On that basis, it just again reiterates the arrogance of a Government that refuses to listen to everyday New Zealanders and to really understand the issues that matter, and to create better outcomes as a result. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ESo look, on that basis, we don\u2019t support the bill. We would have loved to have seen some practical changes made, to continually evolve, looking for that constant improvement, as we do in most areas of business, and certainly in the food and fibre space we\u2019ve continually strived for excellence. This would have been an opportunity to take that to the next level, to really demonstrate that we are still connecting with our markets around the world, but actually, at the same time, we are very aware of changing perceptions, changing requirements, and constantly looking to make our sector even better than it already is. We are at the cutting edge. We are world leaders in terms of animal welfare, in terms of low emissions, in terms of any number of metrics in our amazing food and fibre sector. This is a missed opportunity, and unfortunately it\u2019s taking revenue out of our economy at a time when we need to be growing our economy, increasing our productivity. When you look at some of the productivity stats, we\u2019re well below the OECD average now for productivity. We used to be right at the top of that. So we\u2019re in a continual trend downwards and we\u2019re not seeing enough support, certainly over the course of this Government, looking at supporting business to get on and make things happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ESo look, we don\u2019t support this bill. It\u2019s unfortunately an overreaction to what was a terrible tragedy, and, on that basis, we would have much rather seen changes. This is where we are now, unfortunately, from a Government that doesn\u2019t listen to the food and fibre sector and New Zealand will be worse off as a result. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u002292ab1dc5543c4dd3a7d6833d39a6a303\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292ab1dc5543c4dd3a7d6833d39a6a303\u0022\u003EJO LUXTON (Labour\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m pleased to take a call on this piece of legislation as the chair of the Primary Production Committee who oversaw the submissions to this bill. Can I just acknowledge my fellow select committee members; we work very well together as a select committee. But this is one piece of legislation where, although we worked well together, we did not necessarily agree on the outcome of it. It is true, as the previous speaker, Tim van de Molen, has said, we heard a wide-ranging view of opinions from submitters\u2014some in support, some against. But there is no doubt that some of the things that we saw and heard were absolutely horrific. And whilst many of those involved in the live export business do their best to ensure that the animals are kept in hygienic and good standards, that is not true for all. So there is no denying that some of the things we saw when animals, particularly\u2014whilst there may not have been many deaths, there is certainly a lot of suffering that goes on. Especially as animals cross that equator and the heat, the noise, the lack of fresh air\u2014some of what we heard was pretty, pretty awful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EIt is also true, obviously, this afternoon we heard from the Minister who talked about the fact that other countries are now starting to have these conversations and consider whether this is legislation that they should think about bringing in. And so I say to the House today, this is actually also about us as a country with the world\u2019s best farmers here in New Zealand showing leadership. So we\u2019re not fast followers; we are leaders. I think that\u2019s very, very important, particularly when it comes to our trade opportunities. We have consumers around the world who are becoming more and more focused and interested in where their food comes from, how it is grown, how it is kept, the labour that goes in behind rearing food, etc.\u2014growing food. So I have no hesitation in absolutely commending this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00223b4105925b154bf386c6daa2069333a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b4105925b154bf386c6daa2069333a2\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of the Green Party to speak in support of the Animal Welfare Amendment Bill. Like other speakers, I want to begin by noting the tragic sinking of the Gulf Livestock 1 in September 2020 and acknowledging the lives that were lost in that event. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI want to also acknowledge our past and present animal welfare spokespeople who have long campaigned on these issues, such as Mojo Mathers, Gareth Hughes, who campaigned last term to end live exports by sea, and Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick, who is our current spokesperson on the issue. I hope to do them justice in this speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThis bill is about putting animal welfare in the spotlight and acknowledging that profit cannot be the only consideration that we take when it comes to how we regulate any industry. We\u2019ve known for years that there are serious issues with the welfare of the animals that are transported on live exports, as well as the welfare of the workers who are part of that industry. That has been made visible by activists, by the use of hidden cameras as they\u2019ve exposed these awful situations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s worth noting that in 2020, we live exported over 2 million day-old chickens and over 100,000 cows. In 2008, the then Government ended live exports for slaughter on the basis that we couldn\u2019t control what happened in terms of animal welfare at the point of slaughter, when animals went overseas, and then we somehow weirdly retained live exports for breeding. So it has been settled for more than a decade that we can\u2019t control what happens to animal welfare when it comes to slaughter in other jurisdictions. That logic extends to how we cannot control animal welfare for breeding in other jurisdictions, which is why this bill is so important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s also worth taking into account that it is basically impossible to actually monitor whether those animals are actually going to be slaughtered or bred after being exported to other jurisdictions. So it is not logically a tenuous distinction, but it is also impossible to enforce. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EBut this is more than just what happens to those animals when they\u2019re overseas. It\u2019s about the fact that the live export process via sea is traumatic and also dangerous. I also want to note that this bill, in fact, captures only a portion of live exports. Live exports by sea represent only about 0.2 percent of New Zealand\u2019s primary sector export revenue since 2015. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe phase-out period of two years is problematic, something that we have noted in the past, that activists have also noted in the past, and said is way too long. Hundreds of thousands of animals have been and will be exported and therefore suffer in that time. So when this House has acknowledged that live export by sea is an issue, and then we create a long phasing-in period of this policy, we are accepting that people and animals will suffer as a result during this period. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI also want to acknowledge that this bill will only be banning the live exports of cattle, deer, sheep, and goats by sea. It won\u2019t include things like longfin eels, which my colleague Eugenie Sage put a Supplementary Order Paper in to try and include into this legislation, and was unfortunately voted down. It also does not include exports by air.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EIt is clear that our work continues in this area, and as activists have supported putting this issue on the spotlight into legislation, I also note that they will be also pushing to expand the remit of the considerations we take when it comes to animal welfare and the live export part of our industry. Again, it is critical that the way in which we relate to food production isn\u2019t one just driven by profit. We have to take into account our relationship to the environment in which food is grown and the welfare of the animals which, ultimately, will be exported for consumption. So with that, we\u2019re happy to support this bill and will continue working to strengthen our animal welfare legislation. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u0022860aca6bc259460d964fdc993b3fbff0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022860aca6bc259460d964fdc993b3fbff0\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity to speak to the third reading of the Animal Welfare Amendment Bill. Well, here we go again rural New Zealand: ideological meanderings of a Minister at the behest of a Government that has failed to define the problem. This bill is predicated on animal welfare, and yet, the reality is, that was at the back of the tragic sinking of the Gulf Livestock 1. How do we reconcile this in rural New Zealand? It\u2019s bereft of common sense. This earns, for rural communities, somewhere in the vicinity of\u2014in 2021 to 2022\u2014$261 million. Now, just to conceptualise that\u2014I don\u2019t know what the good people in the House may or may not earn\u2014that\u2019s an average of $49,000 to $116,000 per farm, of the up to 2,900 farms that used it. I wager anyone, this is half a billion dollars out of rural communities, and Barbara Kuriger brought it up before local communities. This employs thousands of people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EI met an individual\u2014to the members on the other side of the House\u2014who\u2019d spent a million dollars on a truck just for this trade. Gone. How do you reconcile that when you\u2019re sitting there, when the average farm has lost over a hundred grand? Because I can\u2019t. And I can\u2019t sell it to them. Two hundred and sixty one million dollars\u2014potentially, $475 million north.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EFuel has gone up in rural New Zealand 30 to 40 percent. I\u2019m an owner-operator of a dairy farm, I know I\u2019m paying significantly more for that. And yet, here we go, an ideological piece of legislation. Food\u2019s gone up, but let\u2019s talk about urea\u2014100 percent. She shakes her hands but she\u2019s certainly not a farmer\u2014100 percent in urea. Reconcile\u00A0that when you\u2019re trying to operate a business with ever more legislation confronting the primary sector. This blurs the lines between the tragic sinking of a ship and animal welfare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EIn transit, it was canvassed\u2014these animals were putting on half a condition score. And I know the members over there don\u2019t know what that means; it\u2019s 25 kilos per 50 in transit. In 16 to 18 days\u2014that\u2019s significant. Most New Zealand farms struggle to do that in the best growing months of the year. And yet here we go. Fifteen percent to 20 percent of the shipping capacity was minimised to give these livestock more area, as suggested by the Ministry for Primary Industries\u2014the Minister\u2019s own officials weren\u2019t listened to. Mike Heron wasn\u2019t listened to. Why are we not adopting a gold standard? Common sense prevails. This is half a billion bucks gone. We\u2019re in a cost of living crisis. Every day, that side of the House evangelises all the good things the rural community is doing, but it\u2019s really good at taking a pot shot. This is another one\u2014turning off an industry that this rural community, that I\u2019m part of, uses every year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EAs a capsule, if I can just tie off, to reconcile how ideological this is, 150,000-odd\u2014135,000 to 150,000\u2014extra bobby calves, four days old, gone. How do we reconcile that when most of these animals were actually going overseas for breeding stock? So the gentleman\u2014it was on my left\u2014is absolutely wrong. Most of these animals are being sold for breeding animals. They don\u2019t have a sunset or horizon in two years; they\u2019re potentially going to China for 10. Straight away, again, we speak to the ideology that is in this piece of legislation. ACT will absolutely be voting against this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022288783df-ade6-42d2-bd21-06ffa87dedf8\u0022 data-id=\u00221f592e34f43e4bf39fe342fb632bf407\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022288783df-ade6-42d2-bd21-06ffa87dedf8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f592e34f43e4bf39fe342fb632bf407\u0022\u003ESTEPH LEWIS (Labour\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to rise and take a call on this bill. I want to thank the Minister for his leadership in this space, particularly because what we know from the evidence coming in from overseas that the markets we export to\u2014the markets our farmers and food and fibre sector producers are reliant on\u2014want to see that we are maintaining the highest standards in the world. So that is why this bill is important, because what those markets that our farmers are reliant on have said to us is: \u201CWe don\u2019t want to import your food if you cannot, hand on heart, produce evidence showing that you are leading the way in animal welfare.\u201D, and our export markets are saying that this isn\u2019t up to standard any more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022288783df-ade6-42d2-bd21-06ffa87dedf8\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard from the Opposition that there\u2019s this gold standard, and yet the submitters who submitted to us couldn\u2019t even agree on what a gold standard looks like. They pointed out that a lot of the boats that are used for exporting overseas are retrofitted. They\u2019re not fit for purpose, they\u2019re not suitable, and they do cause harm to the animals. Even if we didn\u2019t pull out and try and put the pressure on to increase standards, they couldn\u2019t assure us that the other countries wouldn\u2019t come in and undercut us anyway. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022288783df-ade6-42d2-bd21-06ffa87dedf8\u0022\u003ESo we need to be leaders in this space, set the bar high, and say that we are not prepared to put our animals at risk any more. Our farmers will continue to be supported and they will continue to be world leaders, and I back them and our export markets. That\u2019s why I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022b75815f6a1a1402698275fcef9b2c063\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b75815f6a1a1402698275fcef9b2c063\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This debate is interrupted and is set down for resumption next sitting day. The House stands adjourned until 2 p.m. today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202209274296c927a119485c8791476ed6b9e82c000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 12.55 p.m. (Wednesday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"