"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f1132369fb3544a09fc7ebef3a0749d0\u0022\u003EWEDNESDAY, 28 SEPTEMBER 2022\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220a4bf24c45c8466fb2cbdcf0288a6d7e\u0022\u003EWEDNESDAY, 28 SEPTEMBER 2022\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e3973b7da136455e9466d38c10021574\u0022\u003Ekarakia/prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a7cf912179354c7ca128edb47e865b44\u0022\u003Ekarakia/prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00223c83f200e90240d79441407f6f32c74f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c83f200e90240d79441407f6f32c74f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, in celebration of Tuvaluan Language Week, I\u2019ve asked the Hon Jenny Salesa to say the prayer in the Tuvaluan language.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002290905b1d342440b2956862b53e03f494\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290905b1d342440b2956862b53e03f494\u0022\u003EHon JENNY SALESA (Assistant Speaker):\u003C/span\u003E Te Atua, tafasili i te maluga, e fakafetai atu matou mo au fakamanuiaga ki luga ia matou. Ko fakatafa ne matou a omotou manakoga totino katoa, manatua ne matou te motou Tupu kae talo atu matou ke takitaki ne koe a omotou titiga manatu, ko te mea ke fai ne matou a tiute o te fale tenei i te atamai, fai mea tonu, alofa, kae atafai mo te \u2018lei kae filemu o Niu Sila. Amene.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229d5f6d1ffb6d4332a3cb1b947f7840bd\u0022\u003EVisitors\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220e3fb1ab68b842a6a0e5e85497db581c\u0022\u003EAustralia\u2014New South Wales, Legislative Assembly\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022498a8bed255248d0a956bc98f3408d44\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022498a8bed255248d0a956bc98f3408d44\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sure that members would wish to welcome Mr Phil Donato, a member of the New South Wales Legislative Assembly, who is present in the gallery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226db491537ad84de09520fdf509abf0dd\u0022\u003EPETITIONS, PAPERS, SELECT COMMITTEE REPORTS, AND INTRODUCTION OF BILLS\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022636b5b382e554468bdd3c8c9c946120d\u0022\u003EPETITIONS, PAPERS, SELECT COMMITTEE REPORTS, AND INTRODUCTION OF BILLS\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022e333e2f56a3947538bacb4e5c1c2da2b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e333e2f56a3947538bacb4e5c1c2da2b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A petition has been delivered to the Clerk for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022a448ad01fa3a48139659c56adcb726d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a448ad01fa3a48139659c56adcb726d5\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: Petition of The Hashtags requesting that the House restrict the sale of vaping products to licensed R18 specialist vape retailers, and develop proximity and density limits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00222cd43663c6ef443e888605667f5bb8a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222cd43663c6ef443e888605667f5bb8a2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That petition stands referred to the Petitions Committee. Ministers have delivered papers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8b4a28a300f432bb51803ed9eda4a1a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8b4a28a300f432bb51803ed9eda4a1a\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EInternational Labour Organization, Report of the New Zealand Government Delegates to the 110th session of the International Labour Conference, Geneva, 27 May to 11 June 2022\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ETelevision New Zealand, annual report for the financial year 2022, and statement of performance expectations for the year ending 30 June 2023.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002223c50085cd854baba9b557a00074572f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223c50085cd854baba9b557a00074572f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I present the following reports of the Ombudsman Ready or not? A report on the public sector, the OIA, and the pandemic; and OIA compliance and practice in:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003ETe Mana \u0100rai o Aotearoa New Zealand Customs Service\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EAra Poutama Aotearoa, Department of Corrections\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003ETe Kaporeihana \u0100whina Hunga Whara, Accident Compensation Corporation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003ETe Manat\u016B Whakahiato Ora Ministry of Social Development\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003ETe Manat\u016B Waka Ministry of Transport\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003ETe Ope K\u0101tua o Aotearoa New Zealand Defence Force\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EWaka Kotahi NZ Transport Agency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003ETe Kawa Mataaho Public Service Commission\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003ETe T\u0101huhu o te M\u0101tauranga, Ministry of Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003ETe T\u0101h\u016B o te Ture, Ministry of Justice \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EManat\u016B Aorere Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EManat\u016B Hauora Ministry of Health.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EThose papers are published under the authority of the House. No select committee reports have been delivered to the Clerk for presentation. No bills have been introduced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222e3168ec137943c69a5e80e037f5f6fb\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225f1625d4dbfe419fac3a0b7825387cb9\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224b71e2ac12644e62a29378fa15e01524\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u002278aa0db7f2ad49eebc57bbac9907a5da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002278aa0db7f2ad49eebc57bbac9907a5da\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Talofa, Mr Speaker. What recent reports has he seen on the New Zealand economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002210414b79b86c49f496e91cae5bd3b44b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210414b79b86c49f496e91cae5bd3b44b\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E The jobs market is continuing to show the resilience of the New Zealand economy. This morning, Stats NZ reported that the number of filled jobs in August rose by 10,312, or 0.4 percent, compared to the previous month\u2019s, going to a record high of 2.32 million. The New Zealand economy is in a strong position despite a challenging global environment. Unemployment is near record lows, and wages are rising above inflation to help deal with cost of living pressures. We\u2019re striking a balance by investing heavily in skills and training while making it easier for businesses to attract overseas workers to get the skills and expertise they need. There is every reason to be optimistic about the road ahead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022367a93da24d04f20a47c158e2a9b8a9b\u0022\u003EHelen White\u003C/span\u003E: What does the report say about which industries are creating jobs in the economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298aae1dde6044a13b8b901300062ad48\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The gains are broad-based. On an annual basis, the biggest gains have been in construction, professional services, manufacturing, retail, and public administration and safety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b7fc4706c0241eda52492f0ea02ee33\u0022\u003EHelen White\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Stats NZ report say about which age groups are benefiting from the jobs created in the economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe325a5d1478411dba16275a0f9982c9\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The jobs market is continuing to support young New Zealanders. Fifteen- to 19-year-olds made the largest contribution to the increase in filled jobs, making up 17.2 percent of the increase. There have been strong gains in this age group in recent months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2c49b0bd6c44d6d9583ed69270bdd36\u0022\u003EHelen White\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has he seen on confidence in the New Zealand jobs market?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de29eb4847df4fb2a82b765262ad301e\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Westpac\u2019s employment confidence index rose to 115.2 in the September quarter, its highest level since June 2019. Kiwis remain very upbeat and positive about the range of job opportunities, particularly among young New Zealanders. By region, there were strong gains in Auckland, Waikato, and Wellington, while Otago did ease a little after a sustained rise in confidence over the previous two quarters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6efe67e1f04413ba907563894b8032d\u0022\u003EHelen White\u003C/span\u003E: How is the global situation affecting New Zealand\u2019s economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c59bd2718a97444d93f16a9b7e39b8bf\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The global environment does remain volatile and uncertain. Financial markets, for example, have reacted negatively to the United Kingdom\u2019s fiscal package of tax cuts, with a sharp decline in the value of the sterling and a spike in British borrowing costs. The reaction on the financial markets to the announcement has affected other countries as well, with a rise in bond yields globally, and downward pressure on most currencies relative to the US dollar, including the New Zealand dollar.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ff3584774c64657862dc179b87d5d0c\u0022\u003EHelen White\u003C/span\u003E: What are the implications of the current financial markets\u2019 movement for the New Zealand economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295d2545c16cd41b88f1352d799ce226f\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: It offers a cautionary tale about proposing untargeted tax cuts in an inflationary environment. The International Monetary Fund has expressed its concern in this regard. As we have seen, the reaction on financial markets may result in outcomes that are harmful to an economy\u2019s future recovery following a one-in-100-year economic shock. That would include the ability of Governments to make commitments on spending on health or education or housing or other important investments in areas such as climate change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c0e38770d3734cf792ba0ec59df0df13\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022829d4177fa3b484c8e0a0a14fc41fa3e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022829d4177fa3b484c8e0a0a14fc41fa3e\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER LUXON (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all of her Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u0022014588ba9eb74444b795e1bbf40a115e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022014588ba9eb74444b795e1bbf40a115e\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Talofa, Mr Speaker. Yes. In particular, I stand by this Government\u2019s decision to increase Pharmac funding by an additional $191 million in Budget 2022. We\u2019re seeing the benefits of that investment. I welcome today\u2019s announcement from Pharmac that they\u2019ll be able to fund two new medicines: SPINRAZA for spinal muscular atrophy and adrenaline auto-injectors, often known as EpiPens, for people at risk of anaphylaxis or life-threatening allergic reactions. These medicines are the direct result of funding committed by this Government. Our Government takes funding medicines seriously. As a result of our funding increases since 2017, Pharmac has made 189 additional funding decisions, including 59 new listings and the widening of access to 130 treatments. But we know there is always more to do. That\u2019s why this Government remains committed to funding our essential public services, including Pharmac, and not funding to borrow tax cuts for the wealthiest New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc1643cf407c41408a28c8c995598c0d\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Government planning a $3.5 billion jobs tax to fund its income insurance scheme when it\u2019s already raking in $40 billion more in tax each year compared to when it took office?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab468d159872465c991f1aece15fc4e0\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Again, as I said yesterday, the member\u2019s characterisation of social income insurance, I reject. The second point I made yesterday is, of course, we continue to do work on the detail of the regime, but it is being worked through alongside Business New Zealand and trade unions in response to the environment where we will continue to see New Zealanders having to transition through a future where we\u2019re working to make sure that our economy is more sustainable. There was a time when that member was part of a business advisory council that was quite focused on transitioning a just transition for workers. In fact, he joined a study mission to Switzerland, where this proposal is one of the outcomes that Business New Zealand then pursued.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3d9342cac49442181f7ed8f1699c590\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Can she explain to supermarket workers why she\u2019s pushing a scheme the owners of Countdown say will \u201Ctake much-needed earnings from our team members\u2019 take-home pay, to fund a scheme that they will most likely never need, or ever see the benefit of.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f38ad845183d4556a3faa6dac280851e\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Every year, 100,000 New Zealanders\u2014in average times\u2014face job loss; 200,000 through a period of disruption like a global financial crisis. Unfortunately, in a short period of time, we\u2019ve seen everything from the Christchurch earthquakes, to the global financial crisis, to a pandemic. I wish it was possible to say that workers will not experience such severe disruption; they have. In those times, Government has stepped in. We are looking for a more sustainable long-term way, as most OECD nations have, to ensure that New Zealanders are well looked after.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd1c9a900ce149779a19587a2bff171e\u0022\u003EHon Michael Wood\u003C/span\u003E: Has she seen the statement from FIRST Union which represents supermarket workers saying, \u201CThe tripartite agreement between business, government, and unions regarding the creation of a social income insurance scheme is crucial to support people when they need security most.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b9083cc7fc54a34bed4114bd5b076ff\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Of course, that sits alongside the work we\u2019ve done with the Council of Trade Unions in developing this scheme. But I also note that Business New Zealand has been part of the development as well. I take this quote, for instance, from Business New Zealand: \u201CWhen these businesses shut down, workers have little money to spend, which means other businesses suffer and the community \u2026 go into a long-term economic decline lasting for generations. An income insurance scheme could cushion workers and communities from such abrupt income losses, allowing more time for regions and businesses to adapt.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d88e9c7ce3e423abb7232ae6d9c1202\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Why is she proposing to reduce Kiwis\u2019 take-home pay when their real incomes have already fallen by 3.7 percent over the last year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284d2bb50a74a46febc2d366555f1c2ff\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: As I said yesterday, whilst we continue to work through the details of this scheme, implementation would not be anticipated to be any earlier than 2024 or 2025. The reason that we highlight that is, of course, we\u2019re very aware of the economic times that we are in, the disruption that many New Zealand families have experienced and, of course, that is why we have our strong cost of living package to support them. I would then make a wider point here: it has always been Labour Governments that have introduced those things that support families and workers in tough times. Whether or not it\u2019s KiwiSaver or the Super Fund, Labour introduces it, National opposes it, and then they do nothing about it in the future; they keep it because they eventually recognise the support that it provides New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a409f279a4341569a3c91af239403f0\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Does she accept that if the Government tries to tax both workers and employers, most of that tax will end up being paid by workers through lower wages or by consumers through higher prices, and, if not, who does she think will pay it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a55d1abd40dd4a96972b0cdf6f0ba7ec\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I reject much of the premise of that question. I again point to the fact that, in some form or another, there are schemes like this in Denmark, Austria, Finland, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, Canada, the UK, and Germany. Many of the countries that we would liken ourselves to\u2014and, in fact, that the member himself went across to study\u2014have a scheme such as this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254dba4166f6440238f64af7a350274f2\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Government still committed to passing the income insurance scheme legislation before the next election?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a4b459aa60e4c5ca946cbdb336a760a\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: If the member had listened to my answers repeatedly in this House yesterday and today, we do not foresee it being implemented any earlier than 2024 or 2025.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f0a507bc08c45c48a861be494aac3c3\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Government still committed to passing a first reading of this legislation before the next election?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9ea0acdf00e4bee97145a368a2efd6e\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, but the time at which it would be fully implemented, we would not anticipate being before 2024 or 2025.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298db32d1bbda475b9e10afc346833c8c\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Government ruled out reducing income tax or company tax to offset the $3.5 billion cost to the jobs tax?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022153f089eeb894f4a88dfe1b5e9f414a1\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: The member is making assumptions, when we continue to work through the final details of the levy. Again, I would also point out that the way the member frames this scheme makes an assumption that at times of crisis, when we have implemented this scheme, that that does not come at a cost to taxpayers; it does. We have had to, through times of crisis\u2014and the National Party has been in Government when that has occurred\u2014implement schemes to cushion the blow and stop the large scarring that we see in our economy. We are looking to build a sustainable way of ensuring we have those schemes through future times of crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acd6336f81f54ff5adb1b543fbc4462e\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: When she said that final decisions have not yet been made about the income insurance scheme, does that include the decision to tax workers and employers, or just the decision about the size of the tax?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022621c8fc283c443d9b97d0ec9039b33f6\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Again, I\u2019ve never heard the member talk about the ACC tax. These are schemes that are designed to go directly into providing support. It is not about increasing Government revenue; it is about directly funding a scheme that benefits wage and income earners directly. It goes entirely into supporting workers and active labour market schemes\u2014something that when the member was a CEO, he used to support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1fe5d0cc6cd4436ba7a00c93e66e23a\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: If the Government\u2019s proposed income insurance levy is not a tax, will people be able to opt out of it voluntarily?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220be29f043e7947489c3e659fcd42de42\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Again, I likened it to ACC for a reason.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022df6b97e3445347e8ab53b73cbdea703f\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014ACC\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022 data-id=\u002270406342ba6447b5aa4eaf888d793c5b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270406342ba6447b5aa4eaf888d793c5b\u0022\u003EANGELA ROBERTS (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for ACC: Talofa, Mr Speaker. What changes has she announced to ACC? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4e007d143c144f6a7eb96cbfd3ad641\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4e007d143c144f6a7eb96cbfd3ad641\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E Yesterday, we passed the maternal birth injury and other matters bill. This means that from 1 October 2022, approximately 28,000 mothers, non-binary, transgender, and other gender-diverse people will be able to benefit from ACC cover if they experience injuries during childbirth. I\u2019d like to thank the select committee members from all political parties, officials, stakeholders, providers, health professionals, parents, and everyone who submitted on the bill and who have been part of the process. You have all made a difference. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a02b53f202f54a40b24007e082e0f263\u0022\u003EAngela Roberts\u003C/span\u003E: What does this change to ACC mean for birthing parents? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed36aaca76b747c39dc12419241b4eac\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: Prior to this change, childbirth was not covered in legislation because it did not meet the Act\u2019s definition of an \u201Caccident\u201D. That\u2019s why we\u2019ve taken steps to ensure birth injuries are covered, making changes to the legislation, and including a list of covered injuries. Including cover for these injuries will mean birthing parents can access existing support and treatment available through the accident compensation scheme, including support for mental injuries that are caused by physical injuries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fcc94bcdf5943dc88c3c9594e77168e\u0022\u003EAngela Roberts\u003C/span\u003E: Why is this important? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022645150e725cf423a80ff5e7f21fe4b2f\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: This is an incredibly important change and represents a significant step towards improving gender balance, fairness, and equity in the ACC scheme. Research I commissioned provided a clear evidence base, highlighting disparities within the scheme. Women make fewer claims to ACC than men, have fewer injuries covered by the accident compensation scheme than men, and each woman\u2019s claim costs the scheme a third less than a man\u2019s, on average, in entitlements. When reconciling the evidence with the rationale for covering birth injuries, it became clear that these injuries\u2014some of which can be incredibly severe\u2014should be covered by ACC. More than 70 percent of people giving birth in Aotearoa New Zealand may experience an injury during labour or birth, and, from 1 October 2022, this new ACC cover will benefit an estimated 28,000 birthing parents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022691f8d827d43461d819942a722299b82\u0022\u003EAngela Roberts\u003C/span\u003E: What steps did she take to ensure this change became law?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfde629e36f24bc4a5f61249799ef0ae\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: In March last year, I read an RNZ article about the growing number of women experiencing injuries when giving birth and their struggle for treatment. It was a distressing read. The policy work began in June 2021, Cabinet signed off on it in August 2021, and on this day one year ago, I announced that we would introduce legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264ad0b40bc7e48f6a7be8a99142f949c\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Well done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022568972bddebd4cefb064393b7d23a9a7\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: The passing of this bill last night marks a significant milestone in ACC history\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef335492a2a04468b5654fe01a6246ea\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, announcing something\u2014\u201COh, well done.\u201D, she says. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bee1e04918f64a319b28ac927c6a8c90\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and signals positive progress and change for ACC\u2019s future, and I\u2019m unsure why Chris Bishop is interjecting in that way when they supported this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271d50f19957747f8b86a727904e7da73\u0022\u003EAngela Roberts\u003C/span\u003E: What other changes were announced? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b674fc1461e34d4fb1ae40e1e9446f7e\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: The bill also includes 12 other policy and technical changes which provide more support to injured New Zealanders, more clarity of what ACC covers, and equitable cover for claimants. Some of these changes respond to our commitment to roll back Nick Smith\u2019s 2010 ACC changes. One of these changes includes bringing back the claimant-friendly version of the three-step test which is used to assess claims for work-related gradual process injuries. This would shift the burden of proof from workers such as firefighters and sawmill staff, who might suffer from those injuries, back to ACC, which will be required to prove their injuries are not work-related. I\u2019m really pleased with what this bill will achieve. There is always more work to do, but we are certainly on the right track. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002237c4bcf031894912be0c9120ce8675b0\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Children\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u0022d659a39b8cd54c3bad0a42e757673e5a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d659a39b8cd54c3bad0a42e757673e5a\u0022\u003EKAREN CHHOUR (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Children: Does he have confidence in Oranga Tamariki\u2019s relationships with staff and contractors?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022e48ee28ef1284e699d79d9df6c49a9fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e48ee28ef1284e699d79d9df6c49a9fa\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E Talofa, Mr Speaker. As I have said before, Oranga Tamariki (OT) is improving and there is room to do better. This path to improvement also extends to how Oranga Tamariki works with and engages with staff and contractors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220884c0f4a9c240d4b4de12c091511604\u0022\u003EKaren Chhour\u003C/span\u003E: What specific actions, if any, has the Minister taken in relation to threats of Oranga Tamariki staff striking, and can the Minister guarantee to vulnerable children and wh\u0101nau that Oranga Tamariki staff will not strike in the next month?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f86f2f45bd924beda2deb358e7d3ff65\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: The Oranga Tamariki leadership team has been engaging in good-faith negotiations with the Public Service Association (PSA) to date. I understand that Oranga Tamariki PSA members are voting on industrial action today, and it would be wrong of me to comment on that at this time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e768b4d3e55f44949a8fa5f3fcb6d960\u0022\u003EKaren Chhour\u003C/span\u003E: What advice has the Minister received in regards to the potential strike, and how many children and families will be affected if the strike does go ahead?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287cc00a3571e4821bf37c096845364d1\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: So Oranga Tamariki has a plan in place to ensure it can still provide the necessary care and support for children, and similar measures have been used successfully throughout COVID as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1bb78ba20d040df9e9337073322a461\u0022\u003EKaren Chhour\u003C/span\u003E: For how much money was the contract recently signed between OT and John Tamihere\u2019s charity, and is the Minister reconsidering this contract in light of today\u2019s revelation that his charities are under investigation for bankrolling John Tamihere and the M\u0101ori Party\u2019s political campaigns for nearly half a million dollars?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237e7e6cf0bad44a782524a81f4c0bd6e\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: I reject the premise of that question, but let me say that on Friday I was pleased to witness the signing of a partnership agreement between Oranga Tamariki and Waipareira Trust. This agreement supports wraparound, holistic services for wh\u0101nau under a by M\u0101ori, for M\u0101ori approach. This agreement recognises the Treaty-based relationship between the trust and Oranga Tamariki under section 7AA of the Oranga Tamariki Act, an equity-focused section of the legislation I\u2019m sure the member is familiar with. I\u2019d also just like to thank her for allowing me to raise the issue of how much funding Oranga Tamariki has received since 2017. By the way, the relationship has been in place since 2008, so through the previous National-ACT Government as well. But Oranga Tamariki have received, since 2017, a measly $2.8 million when other providers have received tens of millions of dollars a year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220014a1742b84428db5eb6271b79e9119\u0022\u003EKaren Chhour\u003C/span\u003E: So does the Minister agree with John Tamihere when he says his charity and Oranga Tamariki are in a partnership and not a contract, and, if Te Wh\u0101nau o Waipareira is struck off the Charities Register, will the Minister guarantee that this partnership will end?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d91e55dd5996416cb4d1f63858e86c72\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: What the member needs to do is cross the bridge that is Te Tiriti o Waitangi from her P\u0101keh\u0101 world into the M\u0101ori world and understand exactly how the M\u0101ori world operates. It\u2019s no good looking at the world from a vanilla lens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a739932d6011467e827bac01d15b3081\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. The question is how the Government would respond if an event happened that, I think, would bring the contract into question. Now, unless, somehow, it\u2019s addressing the question to attack the member and her world view, then the question has not been addressed at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f64ac61293e4ab5b7c8f94ae2cd3e67\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, Mr Speaker. The question actually contained a number of parts, including some assertions. The member has addressed the question; he does not have to answer to the satisfaction of the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e84020b2aefc4638870e3c15c32fff00\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, thanks. The question was hypothetical and it did contain an assertion. If members ask such questions, I\u2019ve tended to allow them on the basis that members know full well the type of answer that they might get.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fbb090ab764a4810b1e9d96bda0ca991\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u00226c54791050cf4be081055d14007b17f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c54791050cf4be081055d14007b17f1\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What has the Government recently done to improve the availability of emergency mental health respite care in Dunedin?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5e0489d98f6432d83527ae090763b26\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5e0489d98f6432d83527ae090763b26\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to confirm that Te Whatu Ora - Health New Zealand has now contracted to increase crisis respite capacity in Dunedin, from a one-bed service to a five-bed service. Having adequate crisis respite care is a much-needed part of the mental health and addiction system that\u2019s been missing in Dunedin for some time. This expanded crisis respite care\u2014as part of this Government\u2019s commitment to mental health, and delivered under the Time for Change - Te Hurihanga programme\u2014will be another tool to help support people to avoid going to hospital and will provide urgent support in a home-like setting for people experiencing mental distress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d61e772d6054e08a5073301598d494e\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: Who will be able to use these beds?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d91f239e6eba416780305677714c1b4f\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: The beds will primarily be for people experiencing mental distress, but it\u2019s anticipated this may include some people with addiction issues too. The beds are for people who present, for example, to the emergency department or their GP, and are distressed, expressing suicidal thoughts, who are manic\u2014or whatever\u2014and who can be supported outside of a hospital setting. It\u2019s expected that the average stay will range between one and four nights, where they can be assessed and transferred to hospital, or, where they recover from the episode. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9e1dad9c87e4da19339b8a7ce9c7db2\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: Will the increase in bed nights cater for current and expected future demand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f5669e65a6c4be794bad13803806e6d\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Our Government has remained committed to not only addressing the deficit we inherited in mental health care from the previous Government but planning for our growing population\u2019s future needs. Historically in this region, the region of \u014Ctepoti Dunedin, there has been only one bed contracted by the former district health board or Te Whatu Ora - Health New Zealand, with no NGO clinical oversight. Demand and usage will be monitored and, if needed, it could be increased in the future to deliver addiction beds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5603c79abc44867aff5ca7de27d32b8\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: How has Te Whatu Ora - Health New Zealand worked to ensure this service can operate at capacity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b3d38b2112f42a4b150a39038f920fb\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: Previously, the local provider Pact was only contracted to deliver one crisis respite bed from a small facility that wasn\u2019t fit for purpose. As a result of feedback from the community, Te Whatu Ora - Health New Zealand identified the need for more capacity as soon as possible and worked with the provider to now increase its capacity to five. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9f45d20d7fb461c860f82c4a857ed49\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: How many hospital beds at Dunedin Hospital does the Minister expect will be freed up by the increased capacity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b9b4632091645c3b80a76c243629fa8\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: An important focus over winter has been to support reducing pressure on our hospital system so that it has the capacity to care for those who need hospital-level care. If this respite service is used at capacity by Te Whatu Ora - Health New Zealand, mental health crisis response services, and primary care, then up to 1,825 bed nights each year will be freed up from being used in in-patient settings. This is important, as the system considers every possible step that can be taken to ease pressure on the front line at our hospitals should be taken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002218f21cdd4cc040a0920b47e6903e307f\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd82509ce52c4fd98165fba9d4e5fe77\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd82509ce52c4fd98165fba9d4e5fe77\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he agree with Otago University economist Dennis Wesselbaum that the Government\u2019s income insurance scheme will \u201Cincrease unemployment, increase the duration of unemployment, reduce income, increase inequality, and lead to higher inflation\u201D; if so, how can he justify asking Kiwis to pay for it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1ea3e3b57cb46ce99b8b6ff8494ff5a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1ea3e3b57cb46ce99b8b6ff8494ff5a\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E In answer to the first part of the question, no, I do not agree with those comments made in December 2021. As I noted yesterday, we\u2019re one of the few countries in the OECD that doesn\u2019t have a scheme like this. Many countries have decades-long experience with social insurance schemes, and they generally believe that they are a fundamental part of a social security framework.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204a58ebfd99d40bc89791d3690899e48\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: How does he reconcile his statement yesterday that details of this scheme are yet to be worked out with the commitment made in this year\u2019s Budget forecast for jobs tax levies to be collecting $4.7 billion by 2026?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ad8464ad30243c1bf083b21054359e4\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The characterisation the member makes is, once again, incorrect for what is a social insurance scheme. The member would also note that all of that money then recycles back out; that\u2019s why it\u2019s called a levy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022736a68466dd64bb08abd7831fef9e7fb\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think a New Zealander earning $60,000 a year, facing the fastest-rising prices in 32 years, can afford to pay $834 more tax each year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a875192f90ed4595818e38d317d1d42c\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: As has already been indicated both yesterday and today, the scheme is not designed to come into force until at least 2024 or 2025. A person earning $60,000 a year would be paying $16 into the scheme per week and would receive, should they need to draw down on it, $780 a week. This is a scheme designed to support people who earn around $60,000 a year, who don\u2019t have redundancy agreements, who don\u2019t have health insurance, and who don\u2019t have income insurance. This is a scheme common around the world as part of a social security framework.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b256b75c7884109a0fafb807bdac1f9\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Will he listen to New Zealanders who have spoken out against the jobs tax, including 15,000 Kiwis who have already signed the petition National launched yesterday, or is he determined to force through this tax, no matter what?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9062c3f913c44c29c712fa50df87d63\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Here\u2019s a deal for the member: if the member wants to debate the question of whether or not New Zealand should have an income insurance scheme, like most other countries in the OECD, then let\u2019s debate that on the facts. This is a scheme common around the world. It\u2019s a scheme to fill a gap that the National Party felt the need to fill the gap of after the Christchurch earthquakes. And when Mr Luxon went on his Go Swiss adventure in 2017, he and his colleagues in the business community supported this. The scheme has been designed with Business New Zealand and the Council of Trade Unions; it is an important part of a future social security framework.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e3a32ae601045e6a1e38cbc61683f52\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Does he understand that asking families to give up more of their pay for his pet project will make it harder for them to pay their bills and build their own savings, and why is he prioritising his scheme over their needs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270e0332ee9924974b6cfe7897df2ff67\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: What this scheme is about is making sure that hard-working people who lose their job through no fault of their own, like a redundancy or an illness like cancer, actually get some support to be able to get a new job, to be able to retrain. The member can continue to mischaracterise the scheme, but this is a scheme designed to help working New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e56cff4a4a86411b97d5576829b776d2\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Environment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022 data-id=\u00225d2a4304e67547288f144349da64c1e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d2a4304e67547288f144349da64c1e7\u0022\u003ET\u0100MATI COFFEY (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for the Environment: How has fast-track consenting supported the development of infrastructure in New Zealand, and what reports, if any, has he seen on infrastructure consenting costs outside of the fast-track process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022413fce5780b94d0fbb82d3c8909854d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022413fce5780b94d0fbb82d3c8909854d5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E A recent Infrastructure Commission report on consenting infrastructure projects found the costs of consents for medium-sized infrastructure projects have increased 150 percent over the last 10 years. Costs are 250 percent of what they were a decade ago and infrastructure developers are collectively spending $1.29 billion annually on resource consent processes, representing 5.5 percent of project costs. New Zealand is at the extreme end of approval costs with equivalent costs in the UK or the European Union being between 0.1 percent and 5 percent of project costs. The time taken to make decisions on consent applications has also increased in New Zealand by as much as 150 percent over 10 years. Fast-track consenting has cut the average time for consenting by 15 months and for larger infrastructure projects by 18 to 24 months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ae46ed981124fd79bc8ddfa43914f7f\u0022\u003ET\u0101mati Coffey\u003C/span\u003E: How many projects have gone through the fast-track consenting process and how many jobs will they create?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022348ef698df78490aa5e8c11e7680c288\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Fifty-four projects have been referred for fast-track consenting and 30 projects have so far been consented. These consented projects are expected to provide up to 7,700 annualised full-time equivalent jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253a51ec4e5564eab8ca79dd20380b5ae\u0022\u003ET\u0101mati Coffey\u003C/span\u003E: What transport projects have been consented through the fast-track process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2e27af8d38e46198ea54d3797b02b30\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Major transport projects include the Queenstown bypass, the Drury Central and Paerata stations, the Ngauranga to P\u0113tone shared path, and the Picton ferry terminal redevelopment. These major projects all received consents far more quickly and at a lower cost than would have been the case through standard Resource Management Act (RMA) processes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed3cae98357b4b4ababf364dc45052f4\u0022\u003ET\u0101mati Coffey\u003C/span\u003E: How many houses have been consented through the fast-track process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022690f7226822440e585f187da9e3b9a7e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: A total of 10,193 housing consents have so far been referred for fast tracking and 4,142 have, so far, been consented. This has made a significant difference to increasing housing supply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220edb0309af2b4672b689fb0c70ea39e5\u0022\u003ET\u0101mati Coffey\u003C/span\u003E: And will fast-track consenting be included in the replacement for the RMA?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257f53ab63d2b4544b04af464cfa0c15c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: As the Infrastructure Commission has confirmed, consents for infrastructure projects in New Zealand generally take too long and cost too much. Therefore, a form of fast-track consenting will continue in the Natural and Built Environments Act (NBA) and the Spatial Planning Act. This will work in concert with other crucial changes which will flow from Strategic Planning Act plans into NBA plans via improved designations. These changes collectively will save the country many hundreds of millions of dollars every year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022574651fed54f430a8f7c7bbd8608f9f9\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u0022844800898bc34a83a8097487c7f99cb6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022844800898bc34a83a8097487c7f99cb6\u0022\u003EDr SHANE RETI (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Can he confirm that the response he gave to the House last week that 29,189 people have been waiting more than four months on the surgical waiting list is the highest number recorded since October 2017, and how many of the 5,513 waiting more than 12 months on that list have presented to an emergency department for that condition while they waited for surgery?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u00222bf9b6f93ffa4c7295d3fc0034748337\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222bf9b6f93ffa4c7295d3fc0034748337\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E In answer to the first part of the question, the figure given last week of 29,189 people waiting more than four months for surgical and other treatment was as at 31 July 2022, which is the most current data we have. As I also said last week, the number of people waiting longer than four months changes daily because of procedures being completed and people falling into that waiting period. While that number is the highest number of people waiting for surgical procedures since October 2017, the member should note, firstly, that our health system, like all others around the world, has suffered significant disruption because of the COVID pandemic. Secondly, disruption to planned care happened in order for hospitals to meet the demands created by COVID and, more recently, the winter flu season. Thirdly, waiting times in excess of four months have fluctuated throughout the pandemic as hospitals picked up the delivery of planned care when infections were low, such as going from 15,461 in May 2020 to 7,738 in September 2020, and 13,018 in March 2021 to 12,566 in June 2021. Fourthly, the health system is prioritising planned care right now, since the planned care task force started its work and since Te Whatu Ora - Health New Zealand\u2019s chief executive directive in July. In response to the second part of the question, officials advise me that the relevant data is not collected at the time of presentation to an emergency department to know whether the condition a patient has presented with is related to a condition for which they may be awaiting treatment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa2a10611d954f79934b194d09a1fb28\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Will every person who has been waiting more than 12 months be booked for surgery by this Friday, as directed by Health New Zealand; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d221b741e03240ae98986402bd845153\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: The advice I\u2019ve had from Te Whatu Ora - Health New Zealand is that good progress is being made in clearing the waiting list for those waiting more than 12 months. The latest data I saw suggested that that waiting list has fallen by 50 percent as at roughly the end of August, and I expect good progress to continue to be made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddb7c4ff9bd941b289db96f8c5bb3620\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: In what time frame, then, can most of the 5,513 people who have already waited 12 months expect to have their surgery?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b57bad46728402da7d90130e77c4a81\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: What I think those who are waiting for their procedures can know is that, with the system we have now and the leadership it is under now, every effort is being made to make sure that those waiting the longest will get their treatment in a system that has also had to balance the need to continue to respond to COVID-19 and also deal with one of the worst flu outbreaks we have had in the history of this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022731e7d6bbf96467384c2138c9b6f2816\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Did the surgical wait-list go up by more than a thousand people over the three months since he formed his high-performance task workforce?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227db660f57ea64686acd6fd36b43d96bf\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: Since the task force was established in May, this country has experienced the worst flu outbreak in its history\u2014since 1918. I know that on \u201CPlanet National\u201D you can have a global pandemic and a massive flu outbreak and the health system doesn\u2019t bat an eyelid. In the real world, we have a health system that has to respond to every challenge before it and sometimes has to make difficult decisions when it makes priorities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278310789a3c44835acdb04f191ea4fed\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen reports that DHBs previously managed hospital waiting lists by declining people\u2019s first specialist assessment on the basis that there was no space available on the waiting list?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fe20347d4c04c0ea29a8eb1c0cfff0c\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm that, as of a few years ago\u2014certainly under the previous Government\u2014the way that hospitals managed waiting lists was that if people could not be seen within a four-month period they were simply told, \u201CYou cannot come here; go back to your GP.\u201D, and that data was never recorded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022833ce9b0f300408d8aa88416a6479474\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Can he confirm that Waikato DHB created a second list where they moved people off the surgical list to send them back to their GPs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259afdddc92224cb188d0c150bd237bce\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm that that member\u2019s track record of getting his dates wrong and mischaracterising things continues apace. That did not happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224c9dcdef58ab4f0e92c75b4a6fe1666a\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002234ec4a4e-60bd-4a4d-b211-10f9324db3ac\u0022 data-id=\u002265354ca0226442d6ba004fa61629de49\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002234ec4a4e-60bd-4a4d-b211-10f9324db3ac\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265354ca0226442d6ba004fa61629de49\u0022\u003EDr GAURAV SHARMA (MP\u2014Hamilton West)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Talofa, Mr Speaker. Does she stand by all her Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u00221bf7e8f7a9a84080b6cd32d5ac03ebc2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221bf7e8f7a9a84080b6cd32d5ac03ebc2\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002234ec4a4e-60bd-4a4d-b211-10f9324db3ac\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca990b96047d4cd0a93ac4fac98da4bb\u0022\u003EDr Gaurav Sharma\u003C/span\u003E: Who does the Prime Minister think deserves to get diplomatic protection and police security: politicians who are being threatened by disruptive crowds, as mentioned by Acting Prime Minister Grant Robertson last week, or should it be everyday New Zealanders who are seeing, on average, 10 ram raids a week in front of their eyes in broad daylight?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243ab1c2d24624ae88ff4d9c501578a9e\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Decisions around security for politicians are operational. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002234ec4a4e-60bd-4a4d-b211-10f9324db3ac\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221edbadde65c448fa9afea6b11529f4ba\u0022\u003EDr Gaurav Sharma\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Prime Minister say to Hamilton-based small and medium businesses who have been ram-raided and are having to pay for repairs out of pocket or face increased insurance premiums due to the inability of the Government to bring crime under control, and will the Prime Minister and her Government pay for the damages occurring on her watch?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022285c2062c01c468fb5eb73c3cb5dc197\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: We stand by the funding that\u2019s been provided to ensure that up to 500 businesses will be supported to protect and prevent the actions of those involved in ram raids. I welcome news overnight\u2014as the police continue to ensure that those who are engaged are held to account\u2014that there have been, just for example, 14 arrests just overnight relating to recent activity in T\u0101maki-makau-rau and the Waikato. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002234ec4a4e-60bd-4a4d-b211-10f9324db3ac\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcfe37bdad284afc9111dca96fa1810d\u0022\u003EDr Gaurav Sharma\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. That doesn\u2019t answer the question about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ce4a95c3b00479ba55a1dc213209acf\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Dr Gaurav Sharma \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002234ec4a4e-60bd-4a4d-b211-10f9324db3ac\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fbc37c82a9a41ddbd2554e6f6744f9c\u0022\u003EDr Gaurav Sharma\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014thank you, sorry\u2014that the arrest doesn\u2019t actually answer the question: will the Government be paying for businesses who have been affected by ram raids?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce8cad4c55394b7ea61665d126157144\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question has been addressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221511b5b45e6b4767868331bd8ed1a370\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Broadcasting and Media\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8c9607b2d524abe95c9673349b12d0e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8c9607b2d524abe95c9673349b12d0e\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Broadcasting and Media: Does he stand by all his statements and actions regarding the Aotearoa New Zealand Public Media Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8d312edb3e44b7e9f99db7d9b5d0728\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8d312edb3e44b7e9f99db7d9b5d0728\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Minister for Broadcasting and Media):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. I stand by all the statements in the context that they were made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc3a7ff081b2452f99da3fb011d699c5\u0022\u003EMelissa Lee\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm the $370 million merger of RNZ and TVNZ has no regulatory impact statement or cost-benefit analysis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f1a6bed7ca146689d6e6472f56ae8c4\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm, as of yesterday, that there is $109 million per annum in new funding in terms of this new entity, and that the member has got her funding all out of sync. This is an investment in terms of New Zealand culture that the member seems to completely misunderstand. The $320 million that she keeps talking about in terms of creating a new merger is not true. In fact, the cost of the new merger is going to cost this Government, in terms of establishment, a mere $40 million over four years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022725a5fc5d04f4b0daa8d8313b90153bd\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The main part of that has not been addressed. You can ask an extra question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261dcf2e3384648b490c03b84eb062050\u0022\u003EMelissa Lee\u003C/span\u003E: Asking again, can the Minister confirm the $370 million merger of RNZ and TVNZ has no regulatory impact statement or cost-benefit analysis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296abce203960421794ae86f7cf55aecf\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll come back to the member on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3d991e81107438d958360545e6c4167\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think that deserves even another extra question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e765381c2e8a4720829fbf4e72906fdd\u0022\u003EMelissa Lee\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Minister not know if, in fact, this huge move by the Government to merge the two biggest public media entities has, in fact, had a regulatory impact statement or even a cost-benefit analysis when they\u2019re spending $370 million of taxpayer money?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022402402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228dad2bb56faa4024a47a5d8590257126\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve had a clear cost-benefit analysis in terms of this project.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224412c9e020d14bedb02795362ffef270\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Where?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b24018aa18246db81bcdac8c41d678e\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Come to my office and we\u2019ll show you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eca2a67274ad454bacf4bc8093d52f5d\u0022\u003EMelissa Lee\u003C/span\u003E: Is it a good use of $370 million of taxpayers\u2019 money in a cost of living crisis to merge RNZ and TVNZ when submitters to the select committee have said there is, and I quote, \u201Cno vision or substantial rationale for the merger, and it is rightly viewed as a doomsday machine if improperly handled.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022070b20a47f724def801d5fc02e328c7b\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve said this before that the problem of the National Party is that it\u2019s never a good time to invest in anything. That was the same with the health system. That was the same with the housing set-up. It\u2019s the same with the education system. The reality is, we see this entity as being incredibly important in terms of the New Zealand national identity, and I want to say to the member in this House\u2014Maurice Williamson said the same thing when we set up M\u0101ori Television: how can you invest in M\u0101ori television when M\u0101ori health is so bad, when M\u0101ori education is so bad\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d5c591f080544fe8575a8e2202119c0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: N\u014D reira. E noho.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0327ec310474e4d9c8556dfd41a6bd0\u0022\u003EMelissa Lee\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm he will continue to direct the merged RNZ and TVNZ entity, to quote his words, \u201Cchange its attitude and culture\u201D, and is it not an attempt to assert political control before the merger has even taken place?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e779bca25fa4af08cacbf829b78ff1d\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Not at all. Not at all. No\u2014not at all. We\u2019re going to have a charter that the merger will be working by, but it\u2019s better to get the rules straight from the start. The reality is, we want TVNZ to work in tandem with us, and they\u2019re doing that because New Zealand has changed. We no longer have trust in national media. No longer is there trust in what\u2019s happening at a national media level. We need a trusted public broadcaster, because national identity is incredibly important, and no longer do people trust New Zealand television or New Zealand radio. Our last survey told us that New Zealand radio is the second-most listened-to medium; New Zealand television is fourth\u2014second and fourth. So we need a national broadcaster for a great public identity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225878aebb05f74e6e97e1d818a160e1b5\u0022\u003EMelissa Lee\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Minister think \u201Ceditorial independence\u201D means?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022306603c62269454481690af15c31de28\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: It means the decision to be able to make your own decisions without Government influence. That is the intention of this entity. That is the way we will progress. That is the way we will proceed. There\u2019s no way we\u2019ll be telling editors how to run their news. We will be clear that we require a change of culture. It\u2019s not just about making money; it\u2019s about New Zealanders feeling proud knowing who they are. We need a different New Zealand voice recognising M\u0101ori, Pasifika, Asian, and other ethnic minorities. It\u2019s not just about one group any more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a276a10fcda1435eb8ff65b412e0d00b\u0022\u003ENaisi Chen\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e9ae793fd87458fb1f0e4582ab9e534\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary, Naisi Chen. [Interruption] Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263a9b13e76ac4febaa5056f6592c6ae6\u0022\u003ENaisi Chen\u003C/span\u003E: Talofa, Mr Speaker. So why is it important to invest in public media?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022521932b891ba4c65a7e3bd7b566842ed\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: For the Opposition again, every democracy in the world invests in public media to support their democracies and culture. That\u2019s the case of the BBC. That\u2019s the case in Ireland, Australia, and Canada. We absolutely believe New Zealanders deserve that too. They should be able to see themselves and hear themselves. It\u2019s not just about one group of people. There are currently pressures on our public media. They\u2019re fighting for audiences at the moment with the multinational giants. Audiences, especially young people, have switched to online platforms. It can\u2019t be about them just\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fe387c28d924c04a875299fcfbadabb\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Order! That\u2019s enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d540503fbb64b4aa46909b1cdb157a8\u0022\u003EMelissa Lee\u003C/span\u003E: In his answer to questions yesterday, why did he say\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201Cwe encourage people and agencies to give feedback. We don\u2019t mind criticism.\u201D, only to contradict himself by saying that the submitters who criticised the bill were wrong?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0ed1b5fd862462eaa843c1d43e1067e\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m allowed to have an opinion. I\u2019m allowed to have a view. They have every right to put a submission; I have every right to give my opinion. That\u2019s how it works. We encourage submitters to keep giving their views. If you want to ask me questions on their views, keep asking questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a46117388a2542afab8df21f78448d5a\u0022\u003EMelissa Lee\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister believe that anyone who criticised him or the bill are, in fact, wrong?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e93e4d0ac314767a973187930838038\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Sometimes, people will be right, and sometimes they will be wrong. That\u2019s how it works sometimes with submissions. But we encourage the submissions and we\u2019ve had some excellent submissions. But we don\u2019t get all sensitive when there\u2019s a bit of criticism. We encourage it; we support it. That\u2019s why we\u2019re going so well in the polls at the moment, and you\u2019re not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224dc6bd4ff2c54bd3ba106f5476d4b188\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Immigration\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022122f8eba2ead4650aa7d925a200473ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022122f8eba2ead4650aa7d925a200473ac\u0022\u003EDr ANAE NERU LEAVASA (Labour\u2014Takanini)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Immigration: Talofa, Mr Speaker. What changes has he announced to the Recognised Seasonal Employer scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u00225ab345677bbf478184a2f272f7304708\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ab345677bbf478184a2f272f7304708\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E Yesterday, I announced that the next steps in the Government\u2019s response to global workforce shortages include providing 3,000 additional places for the Recognised Seasonal Employer (RSE) scheme for the coming year. The new RSE cap will allow access to 19,000 workers annually from participating Pacific countries, providing critical support to our horticulture and wine sectors. We\u2019ve listened to feedback from workers and industries about the scheme, and have worked closely with them to ensure that we strike the right balance of incentivising local employment, bringing in additional workers, and requiring improvements to working conditions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246fbda3cf8cc4605bcc6c464ce70cc26\u0022\u003EDr Anae Neru Leavasa\u003C/span\u003E: What has been different in the approach taken to setting the RSE cap this year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260840983a1374aababbd46a8c7e59b12\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: This year, for the very first time, the RSE cap was sent through a robust tripartite process involving unions representing RSE workers, and employers from the horticulture and viticulture sectors. By working together to agree on key areas for improvements to the RSE scheme, this approach has added assurance to our decision to increase the cap and helped us to chart a way forward for ongoing tripartite engagement and improvement to working conditions. I want to thank the unions involved, including the Council of Trade Unions, FIRST, and AWUNZ, and members of the industry, including Horticulture New Zealand, Wine New Zealand, and Apples \u0026amp; Pears for engaging so constructively.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f71867bd8164332be6bfc1b8712dd98\u0022\u003EDr Anae Neru Leavasa\u003C/span\u003E: How will RSE workers\u2019 rights be improved under the scheme as a result of the cap increase?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9112f8bfda245a4a199ee8b607b3852\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the rights of RSE workers are a priority for our Government, and we\u2019ve worked closely with the industry and unions to get their support to make improvements across five key areas as part of the cap increase. This includes improved benefits for RSE workers, particularly relating to sick leave and deduction for things like travel and wet weather gear; accommodation standards in housing; transparent information in their own languages for RSE workers about what support is available; improved management and oversight of poor RSE employers; and independent support for RSE workers, to assist them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022569ad10d191544d4bae5d67c29e24637\u0022\u003EDr Anae Neru Leavasa\u003C/span\u003E: What reactions has he seen to his announcement about the RSE scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b7074f18d4f4728a0e0a9d5eec3c264\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve seen a range of very positive reactions welcoming the announcement. Business New Zealand \u201Cwelcome the Government\u2019s announcement of another 3,000 places for seasonal workers to help ease workforce pressure\u201D. FIRST Union\u2019s general secretary Dennis Maga said, \u201CThe sick leave entitlement was long overdue.\u201D And, finally, Horticulture New Zealand chief executive Nadine Tunley said, \u201CThis decision gives growers confidence to continue to invest as they go into the 2022-23 harvest season.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229aa9952253a84fd9b4e5a4e2fcfc85be\u0022\u003EDr Anae Neru Leavasa\u003C/span\u003E: What are the next steps to progress improvements to the RSE scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b940b92cd00c45afba605f2ea7e65849\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: In the coming weeks, the Government will continue to consult and work with the industry and unions on further short-term improvements and employee safeguards to provide greater protection to workers. This will build on our wider first-principles view of the RSE scheme which, as I previously signalled, will commence in early 2023.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aa5b598d71a44e5396b05489eaba8b08\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Social Development and Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00227d778be722124022ad05cf7867c4b403\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d778be722124022ad05cf7867c4b403\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Does she stand by her statement, \u201Cthe welfare system should not be used as a tool for the justice system\u201D; if so, does she still support the use of the warrant to arrest sanction policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8a2ce76143843259d0b01222cab2df5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8a2ce76143843259d0b01222cab2df5\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I do stand by my statement. I also stand by our record of an 87 percent drop in sanctions that impact children since June 2017; 95,000 sole parents better off by $166 per week on average than they were in 2017; and a drop in the number of children in poverty by 66,500, because this Government is focused on making progress to improve the wellbeing of New Zealand families. In regards to the second part of the question, I do not support the use of the warrant-to-arrest sanction, but the work has paused. There is so much work under way in the welfare and employment areas. As Minister, I have to prioritise the work we have on the work programme. The accomplishments I listed off indicate we are getting the mahi done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fbbae3d3a064a3dab3ae8defba8192a\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: What further work beyond advice that she has already received in the Welfare Expert Advisory Group report does she need to do to end the warrant-to-arrest benefit sanctions she doesn\u2019t agree with?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d217006b77cc4eb9a0a4ec9b55d19fac\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: Cross-agency work would be required in order to develop the legislation and operationalise the removal. The extensive amount of work already under way by the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) means that that is not possible at the moment. The work under way at the moment includes implementing child support pass-on; rolling out the increase in dental grants; leading the Working for Families review; working with the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development on the emergency housing review; rolling out the expansion of Mana in Mahi, He Poutama Rangatahi, and M\u0101ori trades training; working across Government on addressing youth crime and improving youth engagement; reducing and preventing debt; and continuing our social sector commissioning work. This is on top of our business as usual, which is supporting thousands of New Zealanders every day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e087e1702ace4c339701ec7f6051baec\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Is she concerned that record numbers of families have been sanctioned by the warrant-to-arrest sanction under her watch, leaving children without sufficient income to live with, when she doesn\u2019t even agree with this harmful sanction?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad626640c986473b825902417f806869\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: The number of people receiving a sanction for warrant to arrest has grown slowly since 2017 but can fluctuate from quarter to quarter. This is because the total notifications from the Ministry of Justice have increased. MSD does not control this. But if we look at the impacts that the two sanctions we have repealed have had compared to the warrants to arrest\u2014one for children\u2014I think we see some stark difference in numbers. The removal of section 192 was estimated to benefit 24,000 children, and the removal of the subsequent child policy was estimated to benefit over 40,000 children, based on 2021 data. That compares to around 975 children through warrant to arrest over the period of a year. We do have to prioritise. We can\u2019t do everything at once. As I\u2019ve said to that member, the work has paused on that particular sanction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d8c2f94e6c4433b81eaa40dc9b2bbed\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: How many more families with children is she comfortable sanctioning for things like outstanding parking fines before she starts prioritising ending a sanction that she doesn\u2019t even agree with?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022127618e8d3b340cba1a0b9aff6876038\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve given a really clear rationale for why that work needed to pause. I\u2019m very much focused as well on ensuring that, where children\u2019s parents are able to work, we have a welfare system with employment support that supports them to get the upskilling and training that they need to get into the employment that they\u2019re able to get into. That is also good for those children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022580f031f1d8a4a699fd5bd396c725722\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agreed with Labour MP Jacinda Ardern, who, when debating and voting against the introduction of the warrant-to-arrest sanction by National, said, \u201CPeople who are on benefits are either criminals, drug takers or abusing their children in some way\u2014this is the message these welfare reforms send.\u201D; if so, why is she upholding a policy that treats people receiving a benefit as criminals, drug takers, or abusing their children in some way?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227a95d244ffe4872a19463b3250cb80a\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: As I\u2019ve said, I do not support the particular sanction, and I do agree with the comments that the Prime Minister has made in the past on this particular sanction, but for the reasons that I\u2019ve already outlined\u2014and it is around prioritising what\u2019s on our work programme\u2014it is a piece of work that I\u2019ve had to pause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf79d6ec4124462cb7132c74b7214c1e\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: When can she commit to begin prioritising the work to end the warrant-to-arrest sanction?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273832a4f82614aaaa5451148beba7eb4\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not going to commit to a time for that at the moment. As I\u2019ve already outlined, we have a heavy work programme that is part of our Government\u2019s welfare overhaul programme. Those reforms will take some time, but we have already accomplished a lot. There\u2019s just much more to do, and we recognise that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220848c800809e4e918c36dd85c9a2694a\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b051b27b4d2a4dcc922da0492f8b4c68\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022c098e401598144adbf2bbad5789fd0e8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c098e401598144adbf2bbad5789fd0e8\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of miscellaneous business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI love this country, New Zealand. All of us are either people or descendants of people who have sailed and flown from every corner of the Earth for a better life. We live together, mostly in harmony, and work to give our children a better tomorrow than we had ourselves. And this is made possible by the only political system that\u2019s ever worked: liberal democracy. Those words mean universal human rights and free and fair elections with universal franchise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EWe should never forget that our country is the original liberal democracy\u2014the first in human history to give every adult the right to vote. Thousands of New Zealanders went on to make the ultimate sacrifice defending it. They lost their lives in barbaric conditions because the opposite of liberal democracy\u2014totalitarian racial supremacy\u2014had to be stopped. Today, we\u2019re fortunate to live with that inheritance. Today, our Human Rights Act empowers the Human Rights Commission to \u201Cpromote racial equality and cultural diversity.\u201D Perhaps that\u2019s what the commission had in mind when they said, \u201CGive nothing to racism.\u201D And we\u2019re fortunate in this House that we do not have political parties that are overtly racist\u2014or at least that\u2019s what I thought.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI thought we\u2019d never have a political party elected to our Parliament that openly and casually preached racial supremacy. I thought we all believed in being born free and equal, as Prime Minister Fraser signed up to in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, but unfortunately there is a party in this Parliament that openly and casually declares racial supremacy, and I\u2019m calling today on their leaders to stop it. Here it is for all to see on the website of Te Paati M\u0101ori: \u201CIt is a known fact that the M\u0101ori genetic makeup is stronger than others.\u201D Let me say that again: \u201CIt is a known fact that the M\u0101ori genetic makeup is stronger than others.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThis is not some nut-bar party from the backblocks of Europe. It is not some dark website in the corner of the dark web. This Te Paati M\u0101ori, who have two seats in our Parliament and claim to oppose racism. When this was brought to my attention, I wondered what the diplomatic way to deal with it might be. I thought of approaching their MPs, but given some of the things they\u2019ve said about me and ACT, I wasn\u2019t so sure if that would be effective. So I wrote to Meng Foon, the Race Relations Commissioner, five weeks ago, on 23 August, and I pointed out that Mr Foon regularly wades into public debates and perhaps he should call this out. Two weeks later, on 7 September, he wrote back and said, \u201CI understand your concern and the sentence you highlight should have been constructed better.\u201D Really? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019ve got a Race Relations Commissioner who thinks racial supremacy is OK, just maybe fix up the wording. I wrote back on 9 September and noted, within days of that statement, he\u2019d made public statements calling out racially charged statements in local body elections. I called on him again to take action. He wrote back and said, \u201CI\u2019ve notified Te Paati M\u0101ori of my concerns and intention to meet and/or speak with them. I would like to have the ability to discuss those matters with them.\u201D Maybe his stealthy methods are effective? They\u2019re not. Two weeks later, it remains there for all to see on their website: \u201CIt is a known fact that the M\u0101ori genetic makeup is stronger than others.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EA more realistic conclusion is that the Human Rights Commission is a pointless organisation that spends taxpayer money saying they\u2019ll give nothing to racism but runs for the hills when real racism appears. That\u2019s why the Human Rights Commission should go. But, with them having failed, ACT appeals to Te Paati M\u0101ori: take this racist statement off your website. It is not us; it does not belong in New Zealand\u2019s democracy. And failing them acting, then it\u2019s up to the people of New Zealand to see their true character and motivation, and make sure that they are never allowed anywhere near power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThat is not the best New Zealand can do. This country at its best is a modern, multi-ethnic liberal democracy with inclusion for all, and I watch with interest to see if all the usual suspects pile on and call out the M\u0101ori Party for this outrageous statement, as they should. If they don\u2019t, ACT will because our country deserves freedom and equality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022b725c5493ab44f249dc2266df8db95ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b725c5493ab44f249dc2266df8db95ce\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E In the 2020 election campaign, the then National Party finance spokesperson had a bit of a nightmare: his alternative budget didn\u2019t add up. And I mean that literally: it did not add up. It was about $4 billion short of what it should have been, and it scuttled the credibility that Mr Goldsmith might have had as spokesperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EBut the reality was that there was a deeper problem: the National Party\u2019s fiscal Bermuda Triangle. Now, being the modest man that I am, I won\u2019t dwell on the unnamed National MP who said that that was the most devastating lie of the election campaign\u2014I won\u2019t dwell on that\u2014because the most important fact is that it was accurate, because the National Party tried to claim that it was possible to cut taxes, increase spending, and reduce debt all at the same time. It doesn\u2019t add up, the triangle doesn\u2019t work, and the public understood that at the 2020 election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWell, guess what! Today, we have proof that the National Party is still stuck in the fiscal Bermuda Triangle. They still can\u2019t make their plans add up. And what\u2019s worse: their plans are so out of touch, they are even worse than when they last proposed them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis was proved today by Christopher Luxon in Morning Report. In the space of 46 seconds, Mr Luxon entered, exited, and sank in the Bermuda fiscal Triangle. Now, he started out OK, because he said that our economy was in better shape than the United Kingdom\u2014thank you very much, Mr Luxon, for that. But then he was asked, \u201CWould you rule out further borrowing for tax cuts?\u201D First he said \u201Cyes\u201D, then he said \u201Cno\u201D, and then when confronted with this question for a third time, Corin Dann said, \u201CSo, borrowing for tax cuts, that\u2019s off the agenda?\u201D Christopher Luxon? [Impersonating Mr Luxon] \u201CWell, that\u2019s a separate issue.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ENo, it\u2019s not. It is the issue. The issue is, how will the National Party pay for their tax plan? Let\u2019s be really clear: this is a tax plan that the National Party leader and deputy leader have reiterated time and time again: tax cuts for the highest-earning New Zealanders, restoring tax breaks for landlords and speculators, indexation, and removing the bright-line test. Now, conservatively, that\u2019s $6 billion that the National Party need to find somewhere for their tax cuts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EBut there\u2019s more. Chris Bishop this week said\u2014and leaving aside the astounding gall of this statement\u2014that he wants to get rid of the State house waiting list. That\u2019s another $13 billion, conservatively, that the National Party need to find. But apparently there\u2019s no borrowing for that, which means the only other answer to that is massive cuts to health, to education, to housing, to all of the social services\u2014or it just means that, once again, the National Party\u2019s plan does not add up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAnd we are seeing today, in the United Kingdom, just what can happen when ideology buys into the reality of a constrained COVID world. The National Party\u2019s recipes never change: trickle-down economics and giving tax cuts to the wealthiest New Zealanders at the very time where we need to be investing in social services. So come on, Mr Bayly, you were there\u2014what\u2019s happening in the fiscal Bermuda Triangle now? What\u2019s happening in the fiscal Bermuda Triangle? Is it more debt? Is it cutting taxes? What is it, Mr Bayly? That\u2019s the problem with the National Party. They\u2019re stuck in the fiscal Bermuda Triangle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EMeanwhile, on this side of the House, we take the balanced approach that got us through COVID. We\u2019ve got through COVID in as good a shape as any other country in the world\u2014from a health outcome and from an economic outcome. Mr Bayly was a great finance spokesperson; he\u2019s left out in the cold now. I still want you back, Mr Bayly. I miss you! But Mr Bayly, here\u2019s the record: 3.3 percent unemployment, one of the lowest levels of public debt in the OECD, a 5 percent bigger economy than what we had before COVID, and massive reason to be optimistic. The tourists are back, immigration\u2019s coming back, and international students are coming back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAs New Zealanders look to this summer, they know they have a Government that got New Zealand through COVID and has an economic plan for the future. On the other side of the House, they are stuck in their fiscal Bermuda Triangle with an economic plan that does not add up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ddf533a99dd7449fbb38baf6a1a649e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ddf533a99dd7449fbb38baf6a1a649e7\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a privilege and an honour to follow my colleague, the Minister of Finance. Normally, at this point in the debate, I would offer some witty riposte\u2014I daren\u2019t do that with Mr Robertson. But I do want to say what a privilege it is to work alongside a finance Minister who works in the truest and finest traditions of Labour Party finance Ministers, who takes grip of the economy and makes it serves the interests, not only in the short term but in the long term as well; not only in the interests of today but in the interests of working people in the long term, and I\u2019m going to come back to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThis Labour Government has operated in a world climate that is facing some major challenges: not only the aftermath of the pandemic\u2014and we\u2019re still working our way through that\u2014but now with the war in Ukraine that is putting major pressure on economies around the world. But we have reason to be optimistic in New Zealand. We have reason to be positive about the outlook in New Zealand, because, as the Minister of Finance has just said, you look at what we have achieved in New Zealand\u2014even though people have had a tough winter and had a tough year this year\u2014and look at the record. We have low unemployment. We\u2019ve had one of the highest levels of GDP growth in the last quarter of any country that we choose to compare ourselves with. And all the while, we have maintained, as well, vital public services, we\u2019ve looked after them, and we\u2019ve kept focused on both the short and the long term. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThis Labour Government is doing what Labour Governments do, and is doing it well. We tackle the hard problems, and we tackle the problems of today as well. And we don\u2019t just deal with the easy stuff; we deal with the problems that our predecessors left in the bottom drawer, left in the too-hard basket\u2014which is what the previous Government did. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThis Government has laid good foundations in the five years we\u2019ve been in place. I look at our Minister of Education and the work that he\u2019s done in our education system to improve its performance. I look at our track record\u2014as the Minister of Finance just did\u2014on our COVID pandemic performance where we saved lives and kept pressure off our public system, and we\u2019ve now invested more in our public system than we ever have before. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EAs I said, the results speak for themselves: GDP growth; inflation tracking better than many other countries. We\u2019ve got low unemployment\u2014that doesn\u2019t mean to say we don\u2019t have the challenges of labour shortages, we do. They are challenges that the world is experiencing, and we\u2019ve got them here. But that\u2019s why I look to our Minister of Immigration, who\u2019s doing an outstanding job of repositioning our immigration policies, our immigration platform, getting more people across the border, and focusing on the skills we need, along with our Minister of Education and others, who are focusing on investing in New Zealanders to play their part in our economy and their part in the future as well. So we\u2019ll continue to work with the hospitality sector. We\u2019ll continue to recruit the nurses that we\u2019re recruiting offshore now\u2014400 applications, I think, since July, more than 300 approved, three quarters of them for our public health system, a quarter of them for the private sector\u2014things are going well in that respect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EBut I want to deal with one very important policy initiative that the National Party, in their typical fashion, has decided they\u2019re allergic to, but is actually very important, and that is a social income insurance scheme. It\u2019s very important, and I want to acknowledge the work that the Hon Grant Robertson has been doing on that. That is a programme that deals with the unfortunate incidence of redundancy that happens. And it is there to support the thousands of New Zealander workers who face the prospect of redundancy but without any redundancy benefits, because they don\u2019t have it in their employment agreement, collective or otherwise\u2014well, some do, but many don\u2019t. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EBut it also deals with those who fall sick during their working life, get cancer, or get some other sickness and need time out and who don\u2019t otherwise qualify for support. Without this sort of scheme, those are the people who are plunged into poverty and uncertainty. And, of course, it\u2019s not just good for workers either. This is a scheme that\u2019s good for business. For those who do have a redundancy scheme, it alleviates pressure off their balance sheet, for one thing; they don\u2019t have to carry the contingent liability of redundancy. They don\u2019t know when it\u2019s going to be triggered, but they know that they have to have the means for it if they sign up to employment agreements with it. But it\u2019s actually good for them too, because it gives them certainty about their workforce when something untoward happens and a worker has to take extended time out. But it means that worker is supported and then is available to come back if that\u2019s what they and the employer choose to do. Or it means that worker\u2014if that\u2019s the situation they\u2019re in\u2014can get other training to be an active member in the labour market when they recover from their sickness or otherwise are ready to go back to work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s what that scheme does; that\u2019s why it\u2019s so important. It\u2019s a good, progressive Labour scheme, and I\u2019m proud to be part of a Government that\u2019s putting it in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u00228cf3277be8834a8bbb955482f51da1b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228cf3277be8834a8bbb955482f51da1b2\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Here we have another Minister double-counting the nurse numbers. Andrew Little is fudging the numbers because he knows that the numbers of nurses applying from offshore for a visa to come to New Zealand are so abysmally bad that they\u2019re worse than when the borders were closed. Only 75 nurses from offshore in 12 weeks have applied. He\u2019s double-counting the numbers like Michael Wood did yesterday, claiming there were 300 nurses applying for an Accredited Employer Work Visa. Most of those workers are onshore and are already here, and are applying for a different type of visa. The numbers don\u2019t lie, Minister Little\u201475 nurses. That\u2019s 26 a month, compared to 57 a month when the borders were closed. These guys can\u2019t organise themselves out of a paper bag. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s been a rough few weeks for the Minister of Immigration, our latest immigration Minister. Things are so bad under his watch that an incident management team have been set up to go into Immigration New Zealand, which is the first time that we can find out that this has ever happened. A team of 27 senior managers from across the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment were sent in to sort out the problems caused by a trio of hapless immigration Ministers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThings are so bad that Michael Wood had to scrape the bottom of the good-news barrel last week by arranging a patsy question to himself about the 2021 Resident Visa (RV21) processing. \u201CWe\u2019re on track\u201D, he proudly proclaimed, \u201Cto meet the deadline of 80 percent completed by June 2023.\u201D Only a Labour Minister in a Government that has got such a woeful track record of delivery could pat himself on the back for a delayed deadline that his Government had pushed out by six months. The truth is that we were never on track at any stage\u2014not even for a single week\u2014to meet the 12 months that they\u2019d originally promised. They pushed it out to what they thought it would be, which was mid - next year. The reality is that Immigration New Zealand are already making noises about the fact that that\u2019s going to have to be delayed again because they keep shifting people out of RV21 to fight other fires. So now Michael Wood is having to celebrate by patting himself on the back for a delayed deadline which is, in fact, an actual broken promise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThen poor Michael Wood had to watch his Minister of Finance, Grant Robertson, this week, during the Mood of the Boardroom survey launch speeches, under pressure from top CEOs from around the country who were lamenting the skills shortages in New Zealand. Grant Robertson said\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201CIt will take some time for New Zealand\u2019s immigration settings to kick in.\u201D, and then he said, \u201CI do believe that in summer, we will get workers here.\u201D Mate! Someone tell him he\u2019s dreaming. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EYou can\u2019t trust a Government that promised us 20,000 workers back in February, when 1,000 showed up. So while Grant Robertson makes these empty promises to the CEOs in the Mood of the Boardroom, the skilled migrant pathway to residence\u2014the skilled migrant category (SMC)\u2014remains closed, and it has been since March 2020. The message has been sent loud and clear to skilled migrants around the world that \u201CYou are not welcome.\u201D, and skilled workers are choosing Australia and Canada. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EWe are 12 months too late to open the SMC. We had two years with borders closed to sort this out, but they never did it, and the leaks coming out of Immigration New Zealand are that they\u2019re going to reopen the SMC next month. Well, too little, too late. The workers have already moved to Australia, and if we want to wait for immigration settings to kick in, as Grant Robertson says, things are just going to get worse, because the immigration settings that are yet to kick in are the fact that the right of partners of skilled workers to an open work visa is extinguished from December. It\u2019s hard enough to attract skilled workers in the current settings we\u2019ve got now, and this is just another roadblock that will make workers choose Australia over New Zealand. Top companies like Rocket Lab will tell the Minister this, but the question is whether he will do something about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThen, yesterday, poor Michael Wood had to double-count the nurses, like Andrew Little did today, and if things hadn\u2019t already gone from bad to worse for the poor immigration Minister, in the Estimates debate a couple of weeks ago, Michael Woodhouse asked him a very simple question: what is the current balance of the memorandum account? The memorandum account, for those who are watching, is the day-to-day operational account of Immigration New Zealand that usually tracks towards zero. The costs of Immigration New Zealand are offset by the visa fees, and when he was asked what the current balance of this was, the Minister answered, \u2018Well, it\u2019s about negative $14.7 million, tracking down from $18.1 million.\u201D Well, he was only about $130 million out, and he still hasn\u2019t come down to the House to correct his answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThe fact is that the taxpayer has had to put in almost $300 million worth of funds to prop up a department that is failing New Zealanders. In fact, next year the memorandum account is due to be negative $220 million, so the poor, hapless immigration Minister has had a rough few weeks, and I can\u2019t see anything getting any better soon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u0022a81beb25ff1c41158955c18882870c43\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a81beb25ff1c41158955c18882870c43\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E The saying \u201CThink global, act local\u201D is certainly true for me. Foreign affairs and local government urges one to focus the mind on issues ranging from rural water supplies for our most isolated communities, to harnessing the potential of our young people, growing the M\u0101ori economy, while addressing the most pressing concerns beyond our borders\u2014from climate change, to the war in Ukraine, to the impacts of a global pandemic. So much of what we experience is driven by global factors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EEurope is entering unchartered waters this winter with energy prices 10 times higher than before Russia\u2019s war on Ukraine. Globally, diesel prices increased 74 percent in the last year. Some expect inflation in the UK to reach 18 percent in the first quarter of 2023, the highest level for the UK since 1976. US inflation is at its highest in a generation and there are fears of entrenchment. The Chinese economy is slowing, with growth below 4 percent, and they\u2019re still focused on a COVID elimination strategy that sees more than 40 cities in lockdown. Declining orders from China and Hong Kong are causing concern across the rest of Asia. Over in Australia, the global downturn could have a significant impact on the economy of our closest partner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EHere, at home, we\u2019re not immune to global impacts on our economy. Our inflation, though below the OECD average, has caused a significant cost of living crisis for New Zealanders, and hardship for many. It has required high levels of Government support, and we\u2019ve stepped up with the cost of living payment for low and middle income earners, fuel excise cuts of 25 cents per litre to help people fill up the petrol tank and get to work and school, and we\u2019re working with the supermarket sector so that Kiwis can pay a fair price at the checkout. In addition to that, we\u2019ve increased Working for Families, superannuation, the student allowance, and main benefits from April of this year. In infrastructure, we\u2019re moving after decades of neglect\u2014exposed by councils, the Auditor-General, health authorities, and others\u2014that has resulted in toxic brown water spilling out of household taps. We\u2019re strengthening the foundations our economy is built on, especially in infrastructure, through our waters reform.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThe one thing we cannot afford to lose sight of is the infrastructure deficit that we face. We\u2019re confronting challenges because we have an economic advantage and a Government philosophy that is, in many cases, unique to New Zealand. The economy is nearly 5 percent bigger than before the start of the pandemic\u2014similar to Australia, and ahead of the US, the EU, the UK, and Canada. Since July 2020, more than 200,000 New Zealanders have taken up free apprenticeships or trades training. We\u2019re backing M\u0101ori and Pacific aspirations. Our M\u0101ori and Pacific economies contain massive, massive potential. By realising the potential of M\u0101ori-owned land and training our rangatahi through initiatives like Mana in Mahi and the cadetship programme, we\u2019re ensuring all parts of the New Zealand economy have the same opportunities to grow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThe state of the world is not cause for despair in totality. We need to remain optimistic as we come through one of the most difficult winters in memory. These are challenges, but we can get through it. And it\u2019s important to ensure that we\u2019re investing where it matters: better health, education, mental health, and housing. We\u2019re also preparing for what the world might throw at us at this very uncertain time. We\u2019re keeping a lid on debt and making important investments to deliver a high-wage, low-emissions economy that provides greater security in the good times and the bad. New Zealand is well positioned to respond to the challenges ahead, whether it be health and safety of our drinking water, war, or pandemics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EUnder the leadership of the Rt Hon Jacinda Ardern and our Minister of Finance, Grant Robertson, our Government has responded to a global pandemic where there was no rule book; responded to our climate change challenge and is focusing on the needs of the Pacific; and responded to conflict and crisis around the world to buffer the negative impacts\u2014all the time, balancing responsible economic management while caring for people. That\u2019s why there\u2019s cause for optimism. That\u2019s why we need to continue to move forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u002294b93fd81247441d93f502c5533ba521\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294b93fd81247441d93f502c5533ba521\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. Housing, under this Government, is a social and economic disaster. In no area more than housing has this Government failed to deliver. They are simply incompetent and incapable of fixing issues in New Zealand society. Big talk in Opposition; utter failure to deliver in Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EFirst we had the KiwiBuild promise: 100,000 houses in 10 years. Where are we up to? Fourteen hundred built, so far, in five years. I\u2019ve done the numbers. We\u2019ve just ticked over the fifth-year anniversary of KiwiBuild. We\u2019ll complete the 100,000 KiwiBuild houses in the year 2308.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d33ca3b411d49d7a2bf247f7689d5c2\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, fantastic!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022254db8eaa4814c14bc1a866a26f7833d\u0022\u003EHarete Hipango\u003C/span\u003E: Appalling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229895de2e6f804c8d80155373a3f0d20a\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll be long gone. Judith Collins will be long. Harete Hipango will be long gone. Barbara Edmonds will be long gone. Mr Speaker, you, sir, I\u2019m sad to say, will be long gone, because KiwiBuild is not going to be completed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EMembers might remember the now Prime Minister in the 2017 election debate, waxing lyrically about kids living in cars. She said, \u201CI refuse to stand by while children sleep in cars.\u201D Back then, around a hundred New Zealand kids, shamefully, lived in cars. The number now is nearly five hundred\u2014480. It should be to the enduring shame of this incompetent and useless Government that practises kindness\u2014or at least preaches kindness but can\u2019t put it into practice\u2014that tomorrow morning, hundreds of New Zealand children and hundreds of New Zealand families will wake up in a car. The Prime Minister has broken her promise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford said, five years ago, rents will fall under Labour. Phil Twyford said that. I\u2019ve got the quote. He said that under Labour\u2019s policies, rents will fall. Yet today, we see TradeMe reporting that tenants continue to feel the pinch as median average rents remain at an all-time high. Rents are up\u2014in the last five years\u2014$140 per week on average. In Lower Hutt, they\u2019re up $225 a week on average in the last five years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EPhil Twyford used to say that it\u2019s a disgrace that the Government spends $90,000 per day on emergency housing. Well, guess what! The Government now spends a million dollars a day housing people in motels.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bd44c9b3df7460bb10e1dc9e2aa913f\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: A day?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dff1c300398b48d1a988a232dca90000\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: A day. We\u2019ve just ticked over, two months ago, a billion\u2014not a million; a billion; \u201CB\u201D for Billy, with a capital \u201CB\u201D\u2014dollars spent on housing people in motels. Four-thousand households live in motels. Four-thousand kids will wake up tomorrow morning in a motel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe Government said they would fix the State house wait-list. The Prime Minister likes to say, wrongly, that the Government\u2019s built 10,000 State houses. I heard Kiri Allan say it on radio this morning\u2014she said, \u201COh, no, don\u2019t worry, we\u2019ve built 10,000 public houses.\u201D Wrong, wrong, and wrong again. Guess how many K\u0101inga Ora houses, Housing New Zealand houses, the Government\u2019s actually built in net terms in five years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0b26102aa354f34951d4a78eafa371a\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: How many?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9a78b2efb5a47dab92f7aa51cb15ba9\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Two thousand six hundred. Pathetic number. They demolished 4,600. They ignore that bit. They don\u2019t count the net number. They\u2019ve demolished or sold 4,600 and built net 2,600. The Government said they\u2019d stop the State house sell-off; they still sell State houses. Another broken promise. So, in net terms, 2,601 new K\u0101inga Ora houses. So how do you get to the 10,000? Well, 4,000 of the 10,000 are not new builds. It\u2019s not new housing; it\u2019s an existing house that\u2019s being leased by a community housing provider that now accesses the income-related rent subsidy. It\u2019s called a redirect. Four thousand of the 10,000 purported new public houses are just redirects. They\u2019re not new houses whatsoever; it\u2019s a redirect. It\u2019s an existing house. The Government has bought 1,400 houses. Again: not a new house.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo when the Prime Minister and Kiri Allan and all the other Labour MPs, probably most of whom are sitting on the backbench, are rampaging around the country, saying, \u201COh, don\u2019t worry, we\u2019ve built 10,000 public houses.\u201D, you sitting over there need to know: that is wrong. The Government has not built 10,000 new public houses; instead, every metric is worse. The wait-list is up by 20,000. Emergency housing is up by a matter of thousands. And people in the most severe and urgent need of State housing\u2014820 on the wait-list\u2014now wait 421 days for a State house. This is a Government that came to power promising a lot, but they refuse to practise what they preach in Opposition. They\u2019re incompetent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4c44d3749b143bda2b00fa601a80282\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4c44d3749b143bda2b00fa601a80282\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I must start by saying that the contributions from the Opposition today and in general over the last wee while remind me somewhat of Winston Churchill, and not in a good way\u2014not in the statesmanlike way, not in the profound way, but in the way that they just ooze pessimism, and I\u2019m sorry for that visual. The contributions were delivered by an Opposition with an unfortunate, pessimistic disposition, and when I see that unfortunate, pessimistic disposition and hear it in this House, I\u2019m reminded that it was Winston Churchill who once said, \u201CA pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity. An optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.\u201D We know on this side of the House that the Opposition are simply on the wrong track when they have to resort to that sort of pessimism and talk down our economy, talk down our future, simply to make their point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EThe reality is that there is a really strong cause for optimism in New Zealand. New Zealanders are hard-wired to be more optimistic than not. It\u2019s how we work. It\u2019s how people work. It\u2019s functional, it\u2019s adaptive, and it\u2019s the way things go. New Zealand has cause for optimism because we share three main advantages, and they are our people-first COVID response, our strong economic position, and our proven team. Let\u2019s just go back through those three things in a little bit more detail. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s go firstly with our people-first COVID response, which we know saved lives and protected our economy. But, more important, it also demonstrated the values of this Government\u2014the fact that if you put people first always, good things happen. People are the heart of our economy, and that is always the right way to conceive of these issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EThe second thing is our strong economic position. It was by design; it certainly was not by accident, as is often insinuated, and it sees us starting the next phase of our economic recovery in a much stronger position than many others that we might compare ourselves to, despite facing the very same global issues and the very same global cost of living pressures that we all find ourselves facing at the moment. But what we do know is that people\u2019s incomes are growing at the highest rate since records began. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EMore homes have been built in the past year than since records began. The size of our economy is larger than what it was pre-COVID, and our Kiwi exports are in demand. We\u2019re in demand. It doesn\u2019t seem that long ago that I remember New Zealand Prime Ministers having to pay to get on American talkback shows. Now we have world looking at us. We are in demand, we are on that stage, and that stage means something.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EThe third thing is our proven team\u2014the same team that got us through COVID-19 is now using those same smarts to get us through the tough times we\u2019re now facing, and we are facing tough times. No one denies that. There\u2019s no easy fix but at least we\u2019re taking some action to ease those pressures, and the National Opposition can guffaw but their record is to simply vote to not support Kiwis. They\u2019ve voted against the wage increases. They\u2019ve voted against the cost of living assistance. They\u2019ve voted against the winter energy payment and increasing benefits. They\u2019ve got no answers unless you conceive of ill-focused tax cuts to the wealthiest with a $6 billion price tag that either means that we\u2019re borrowing more money or, presumably, given recent announcements in that direction, that they\u2019re simply slashing more services. That\u2019s their answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders, as I said, are hard-wired to be more optimistic than not. It\u2019s adaptive, it\u2019s functional, and it\u2019s how we work. It means that when hard times come, and they do\u2014hard times come and go\u2014we understand, as people who are destined to be optimistic, that these things are temporary. They don\u2019t last forever. They\u2019re not permanent. We get up, we get on with it, and we look to the future with that optimism that our Minister of Finance has so ably couched his opening contribution in today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EWe are a country that is in demand, as I said, and that\u2019s no small feat. We\u2019re ready with, I think, one of the best Governments in our history in place to tackle whatever the world throws at us next. We\u2019re full of optimism, full of pride, and full of all the thankful and prideful things that we should remember from the last five years. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u0022aaa15e900a214e25aab88e6d26a26d8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aaa15e900a214e25aab88e6d26a26d8e\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. If I may ask a question to members in the House, and to those who may be listening along at home today, it\u2019s a question about whether any of us in here have ever had a drink when we haven\u2019t necessarily felt like we really wanted to, if we\u2019ve ever had more of a drink than we wanted to, if we\u2019ve ever drunk alcohol just for the sake of fitting in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s Mental Health Awareness Week, and five years ago I had the privilege of delivering my maiden speech in this place with my colleague Golriz Ghahraman. In that speech, I said, \u201CToo many of those we serve and represent are navigating insecure housing and insecure work. When you don\u2019t know your neighbours or your co-workers to any depth, and you have a problem, you\u2019re not inclined to talk about it. You internalise it and individualise it. It\u2019s your problem. It\u2019s therefore a problem with you. Without strong communities, without mainstream recognition of the power of collective action, we don\u2019t hear each other\u2019s voices and we don\u2019t put our finger on [the] systemic issues that \u2026 we need each [other to resolve].\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EAround two years after that speech, the Government released its commissioned mental health and addiction inquiry, He Ara Oranga. The central premise of that inquiry reflects all of the contemporary research about mental health and addiction. It shows us that, much like our physical health, all of us are born with the genetic makeup that we have inherited from our parents and our grandparents and our great-grandparents and so on. Basically, we are born into this world with brains that may have inherited a greater or lesser potential for development of mental ill health, like physical ill health. But, fundamentally, what that report found is that it is our environments, the opportunities that we have access to, our circumstances, the communities that we live in, the systems and structures, and the rules and the regulations that we live within that either can enable or disable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThe question for this House is whether we want to go about creating those enabling environments, or continue to perpetuate those disabling environments. The good news in He Ara Oranga, like, actually, the Safe and Effective Justice Advisory Group review Turuki! Turuki!, is that our Parliament has some pretty clear recommendations about how we can go about making those enabling environments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EHere, I really want to drill down into some specific recommendations where they were very straight-up on what it is that we can do about drugs. All substances, all drugs, can cause harm. The question is whether we want to go about recognising the reality that those substances exist regardless of whether we want them to or not, to create rules, regulations, environments, circumstances, situations, systems, and structures to reduce that harm. Criminal prohibition doesn\u2019t go about getting rid of those substances; it pushes them underground, as was reflected in He Ara Oranga, and what this report said is that the best thing that we could possibly do to go about reducing the harm that these substances create is to create sensible regulation, grappling with the reality that these substances exist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThey didn\u2019t limit these recommendations to illicit drugs or illicit substances; they also included the most harmful drug that we have in our society, legal or illegal\u2014that is, of course, alcohol. So the question then becomes: what can we do about it? Well, there were two really clear recommendations when you drill down through both the mental health and addiction inquiry and the Safe and Effective Justice Advisory Group review, as commissioned by the Labour Government in the last term, one of which is to implement the recommendation of the former Health Promotion Agency to remove the special appeals processes so that communities can go about putting in place local alcohol policies that work for them, putting people over profit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EOne of the other things that we can go about doing is to finally do something with the ministerial forum commissioned back in 2014 by the former National Government, chaired by Sir Graham Lowe, that said that we need to go about getting rid of the glamorisation and normalisation of alcohol from our sports in this country, like we did with tobacco decades ago. Members in this House can do something with these recommendations, and, in fact, they have an opportunity to do so with a bill that\u2019ll be in front of them in about a month\u2019s time. That bill, of course, is my alcohol harm minimisation bill. I want to this afternoon acknowledge H\u0101pai te Hauora, Alcohol Healthwatch, and dozens\u2014dozens\u2014of other organisations and public health experts who put their names on the line to support the petition that was tabled today and accepted by one Arena Williams. And I want to thank my Labour colleagues, those who have indicated their support, and encourage National to do the same.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022 data-id=\u00222f3e5c11bcf94363a3c51a3d2547bc43\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f3e5c11bcf94363a3c51a3d2547bc43\u0022\u003EANAHILA KANONGATA\u2018A-SUISUIKI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E \u8C22\u8C22, e te Mana Whakaw\u0101, and talofa. Our economy is fit for today\u2019s environment because we have the right leadership to lead this country: the Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern and the Deputy Prime Minister Grant Robertson. May I remind the House of the three goals that the Government had set out at the beginning of this term. One was to continue to keep New Zealanders safe from COVID-19. It was to continue accelerating the recovery and rebuild from the impacts of COVID-19. And, lastly, it was to continue to lay the foundations for the future, including addressing key issues such as climate change, housing affordability, and child poverty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s the first time I\u2019ve spoken since the passing of Queen Elizabeth II, and I want to make a contribution to acknowledge her leadership. The late Queen Salote III of Tonga was the only monarch who was a female in 1918. The world didn\u2019t know that until 1953 at the coronation of Queen Elizabeth II. The monarch of Tonga\u2014the Queen of Tonga\u2014declined on a rainy day in London to cover her carriage because she had stated that it was her respect for Queen Elizabeth. The people of London actually acknowledged the Queen of Tonga by writing songs about her, such as \u201CLinger Longer, Queen of Tonga\u201D. Queen Elizabeth II and the Duke of Edinburgh visited Tonga later that year, in 1953. On 30 June 1965, Queen Elizabeth II bestowed upon her\u2014the first woman ever in the world\u2014the title of Dame Grand Cross of the Order of St Michael and St George. This was in respect of the relationship that the two Queens had at the time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003EThe same year, in December, here in Auckland, Queen Salote of Tonga passed away. Queen Elizabeth had sent a plane from England to take the Queen of Tonga home to Tonga. That is leadership and that is a demonstration\u2014as bestowed upon these two Queens, the late Queen of Tonga and the late Queen Elizabeth II\u2014of respect. If it wasn\u2019t for Queen Elizabeth II, most people wouldn\u2019t know where Tonga is, and I want to say toka \u0101 Kuini \u2018ofeina \u2018o Pilit\u0101nia. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003EI come back to the House. Our economy is today the best ever it can be because of the leadership of our Prime Minister and our Deputy Prime Minister. From the flax roots of Papakura, I want to bring two issues that are actually working well in Papakura. Auckland Transport (AT) Local at the moment, on-demand rideshares have been trialled last year and up until later on this year, in October. The rideshares mean that for the last 12 months locals have been able to\u2014there was a bus route that was redundant and most people didn\u2019t use that bus route\u2014they didn\u2019t use it because it wasn\u2019t working for the community. AT had brought this rideshare in, and because of the half-price public transport, locals are using this rideshare, with over 18,000 trips since it began.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003EWhat the community are saying is that the half-price public transport from Flax Bush, in Papakura, is working from the community. Ramona Durie is a budget adviser for Christian Care Budget Services in Papakura. She tells me every day when I see her that the winter energy payment and the cost of living payment are making a difference to everyday New Zealanders, to everyday Papakura people. She sees people who are in hardship. That\u2019s why they come to budgeting services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003ELast week we had the Onehunga High School whakatau for their Tongan leadership group. All 15 students were here in Parliament. Mr Speaker, they told me that they had loved what you had shared with them about faith and your family as being important to being here. They also said to the Acting Prime Minister at the time, the Hon Grant Robertson, what a difference the funds made that we provided as the Government to build classrooms at the school\u2014the head girl, Christina Elone, was in tears when she thanked the Acting Prime Minister at the time\u2014what a difference it made for students at Onehunga High School. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003EI just want to say that we are in this environment because we have the right leadership that provides for New Zealand to continue keeping us safe from COVID-19, accelerate our recovery from COVID-19, and continuing laying the foundations for the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u00227fa7f693d03e488997b9bd6d16ec3a92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227fa7f693d03e488997b9bd6d16ec3a92\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Over two months ago, I put it to this House that the Prime Minister cannot even bring law and order into her own electorate of Mount Albert, that she cannot keep the streets of Mount Albert safe. It is now true that she cannot keep the malls safe, the businesses safe, and our families safe. It is definitely true, and you can ask anyone. The terrified store owners, shop workers, and staff at St Lukes mall don\u2019t feel safe anymore. We know. The Hon Mark Mitchell and I actually visited the mall and talked to the people there and some of them are permanently choosing to move to a safer place. They\u2019re quitting their jobs because they do not want to work in an environment where they feel vulnerable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThat is a terrible indictment on a Government who apparently cares about people. Oh no; they don\u2019t, actually. They prefer to look after themselves. The MPs who might need lamingtons actually need security detail, but people who have guns pointed at them, who have batons beating down their doors and things stolen from their stores\u2014work they have put heart and soul into\u2014are not being protected by this Government. Last month, I spoke to shopkeepers who are actually sleeping on the floor of their shops because they don\u2019t feel they\u2019re protected. That is just one issue that this Government is failing at. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EToday at question time, I put some questions to the Minister for Broadcasting and Media, who is spending $370 million of taxpayer money\u2014$370 million of taxpayer money\u2014to create a new public media entity replacing RNZ and TVNZ, both of which, put together, are worth less than the money they are spending on this new venture. I asked the Minister whether it, in fact, had a regulatory impact statement (RIS). He couldn\u2019t actually answer that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EI asked him if it had had a cost-benefit analysis done. After several questions, he told me I could come to his office and get them from him. So guess what I did! I turned up. I didn\u2019t actually have the swipe card to go up to his office, so I had to wait downstairs and get reception to ring his office. His office was rung. I had to wait about 15 minutes\u2014I guess that\u2019s what it took his senior private secretary or the senior staff to print the material for me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EGuess what! [Holds up document] The bit in pink is the regulatory impact statement\u2014that is the regulatory impact statement. Members of Parliament normally require a little bit more than that. Literally what it says is that it is exempt from it, because it has done a strong public media business case. Guess what the Minister\u2019s office printed for me! Not the cost-benefit analysis, but the strong media business case. But guess what! This is what comes: the redacted version that is available publicly, and it has no costs, no money that we can track. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThere is absolutely no transparency\u2014so typical of this Government. There is no RIS, no cost-benefit analysis\u2014which members of this House should have\u2014to decide whether this is a good idea. There is no transparency. How can members genuinely say that the $370 million that the Government will be wasting on an entity replacing RNZ and TVNZ is good money being spent for a good purpose? With this document? I\u2019m sorry, members; I certainly can\u2019t tell if it\u2019s good. I know it\u2019s bad, because there is a cost of living crisis in New Zealand and $370 million could wipe out the waiting list of people waiting for cancer medication, and there would be money left over to deal with tens of thousands of patients waiting for surgery. This is a failure. This is a Government that is not delivering to New Zealanders. I say we need to end this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u00228b9020e79fdd4801987471b7424591e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b9020e79fdd4801987471b7424591e6\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E I have been waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting for Godot because there\u2019s no plan coming from the other side of the House. I was hoping they were going to talk about their fantastic tax cuts for the rich, the ones that would give Christopher Luxon $18,000, should he become the Prime Minister, and yet give a cafe worker $2 a week difference in their tax. But no, they didn\u2019t even go there. All they did was nit-pick, complain, grumble, and be sad sacks about what this Government has been doing to make things better for New Zealand. The reason I wanted to hear a plan was because I want to know what they plan to do for women. What does the National Party plan to do for women? I haven\u2019t heard a single idea. And I\u2019m not expecting much, either, because when I look at the opposite side of the House I don\u2019t see much diversity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EFifty-four percent of our members are women. So we have an opportunity to make a difference, and, boy, have we been using it. We have got the record number of women in Cabinet positions. We\u2019ve made huge differences to women\u2014to mothers and to working mothers. We\u2019ve got the Best Start payment, providing an extra $65 a week for the parents of newborns. We\u2019ve recorded the lowest gender pay gap in recent history. We\u2019ve introduced a $5.5 billion package for families. We brought free and healthy lunches into schools. That is the stuff that women care about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWe have expanded school-based health services and are making doctors visits free for children under 14. We\u2019ve reduced the compulsory school fees\u2014oftentimes, that is coming out of the budget that women use to run the house. We have delivered the largest ever funding boost for primary maternity services. We\u2019ve extended paid parental leave from 18 to 26 weeks. We have increased abatement thresholds. We\u2019ve strengthened equal pay legislation and delivered record pay settlements in the feminised sectors. We\u2019ve ensured free period products for all primary, intermediate, and secondary schools, and for kura.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve increased leadership in the public sector. We\u2019re reducing the gender pay gap, as I said. We\u2019ve passed world-leading legislation that is giving women leave if they have a miscarriage\u2014that is a world-leading piece of legislation, led by friend and colleague Ginny Andersen. We have more women on public boards than ever. We have employment action programmes tailored specifically for M\u0101ori, Pacific, and Asian women, who experience the largest pay gaps. We have women who\u2019ve been targeted with COVID funding. We\u2019ve removed abortion from the Crimes Act\u2014it is now being treated as a health issue. I still don\u2019t know what the Leader of the Opposition\u2019s position really is on that. One minute he votes one way, another minute he\u2019s not ruling out which way he\u2019s going to vote\u2014we don\u2019t know, as women, what National is going to do in the space of women\u2019s reproductive health, should they ever get into Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ENow, last night we passed the Accident Compensation (Maternal Birth Injury and Other Matters) Amendment Bill. That is going to make a difference for 28,000 women who have never been able to access ACC in one of the very critical areas around maternal health, and I am so pleased that our Minister, Carmel Sepuloni, has seen that through. Now, what have we had from National? Well, nothing\u2014not even tax cuts. They haven\u2019t even mentioned tax cuts today. I don\u2019t feel comfortable and confident as a woman that they will be there to look after me, to look after my sisters, to look after my mother, to look after my daughters. They don\u2019t have a plan. They\u2019ve been miserable. They\u2019ve been pessimistic. They\u2019ve made us all feel quite depressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EYou can bet your bottom dollar that, with the lack of diversity that we see and their lack of interest in these issues, when they make all the cuts that they say they\u2019re going to\u2014when they stop spending\u2014it is the women who will suffer first. That is always what happens. And so I invite people listening to this debate, I invite people sitting at home thinking about how their world is looking at the moment\u2014don\u2019t get sucked in to the pessimism from the other side. If you\u2019re a woman, think very carefully about who is going to be looking after you going into the future\u2014this Government that has delivered for women, that has delivered for children, that has delivered for minority groups, for people who don\u2019t sit squarely in the mainstream; or are you going to go with an Opposition who normally advocate tax cuts for the rich but, perhaps because it\u2019s Wednesday, perhaps because they\u2019re tired, haven\u2019t even come up with a single plan for economic recovery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThis side of the House is doing well by the economy. I want to thank all New Zealanders for their part in it, and there is good cause to be optimistic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00225e33843326a5469e8332c263cd420eaa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e33843326a5469e8332c263cd420eaa\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s with much pleasure that I\u2019m talking in this debate. Of course, we all heard Mr Robertson earlier, struggling with this concept about how you balance the books in New Zealand. He likes to term it \u201CBermuda Triangle\u201D. But, of course, I think what\u2019s happening now is they\u2019re starting to see the shonky economics that Mr Robertson has been perpetuating for the last five years. This is a Minister that has just overseen one of the worst cost of living crisis, and the member who has just resumed her seat, Ingrid Leary, she talks about making it harder for women when the cost of living crisis is exactly what is going to make it harder for women and their families. That is really where it is hurting at home\u2014the money; trying to make ends meet\u2014and we\u2019ve got thousands of people now vulnerable because of the cost of living crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI think the issue around what Mr Robertson was talking about\u2014he has trouble with the concept of how to balance the books. I think the Mood of the Boardroom survey just very recently is showing that people are now understanding the shonky economics that he has perpetuated. I am reminded of the great saying by Lincoln: \u201CYou can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time, but you cannot fool all the people all of the time.\u201D That is coming home to roost for this Government, and for this finance Minister. This is a man, this finance Minister, who has overseen the doubling of New Zealand\u2019s debt. It\u2019s increased by over $60 billion\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5d752e7309c4046977aa87fd23eea58\u0022\u003ETodd Muller\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s outrageous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022869e23b700bd49d1a33e9de01ec00a91\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and it\u2019s going to continue Mr Muller, because for this Minister of Finance, even though he\u2019s taking an extra $41 billion of new additional tax every year, that is not enough. He is going to continue to run a deficit this year and the next year, and that is why this Government is in such trouble\u2014because it spends like mad.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EOf course, what that means is that New Zealand has had the second-highest response to COVID, of which some of it, I\u2019ve got to say, has been OK. We\u2019ve had $60 billion spent, of which $25 billion went to help people to pay workers in their businesses, and of course that was a good thing, because, as some of us know\u2014unfortunately, not enough in the Labour Government understand\u2014it is the small businesses that drive this economy, that create the taxes that ultimately leads to us as a Government being able to fund new schools, new hospitals, all the things that we need to do in this country. So apart from the $25 billion of spend that\u2019s happened over the last 2\u00BD years, you\u2019ve got to ask: where has the other money gone? All right, let\u2019s be generous; there was probably another $10 billion that he spent that was OK. That leaves another $25 billion that has been spent by this Government over the last 2\u00BD years, and not one person in this House would be able to identify any big strategic change that has occurred as a result of it. It has just disappeared into the wind, never to be seen, and, of course, that\u2019s $25 billion of additional debt that future generations have to pay down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo I have to ask: what has that $25 billion that\u2019s been spent\u2014that no one knows\u2014resulted in? I\u2019ll give you some examples. If we\u2019d taken that $25 billion and said, \u201CLet\u2019s do the cross-Auckland harbour tunnel.\u201D, that\u2019s roughly about $10 billion. We could have done that; we could have committed to that 2\u00BD years ago. We could have funded all of the infrastructure transport needs for Wellington\u2014roughly $6.5 billion; the total programme. We could have ticked that off. We could have funded the new Dunedin Hospital. I know it\u2019s under way, but it\u2019s about $1.5 billion. We could have said, \u201CLet\u2019s do it, and let\u2019s do it in a hurry.\u201D We could have funded\u2014and I\u2019ve got Mr Muller here down in Tauranga\u2014the new motorway, State Highway 29, from the Kaimais down to the port. And, of course, that would have driven some economic gains, but don\u2019t worry about that. That\u2019s probably another billion bucks. And, on my reckoning, I\u2019m at $20 billion. I\u2019ve still got $5 billion to spend. And that is the scale of undisciplined spending.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e7df1b55cf0495eb864a92eb4214c38\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The time for this debate has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002295208b1493ff41da9f13074af631f138\u0022\u003ECharities Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d399c28f82ba4ea7b5192df4b4f3373e\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u0022fff349b01cc34569834ee1cd59cfc51f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fff349b01cc34569834ee1cd59cfc51f\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Minister for the Community and Voluntary Sector):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Charities Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223307275dbab482e8ecfceaf7bfee67a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df423896a7544dfcac8e4ecbf9e1f0da\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Charities Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Social Services and Community Committee to consider the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003ECharities are vital to our social infrastructure and our nation\u2019s wellbeing, stability, and health as a democracy. The charitable sector is broad and diverse. It\u2019s made up of large national charities, regional community entities, and local groups such, as wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi bodies, Pacific, and ethnic community organisations, churches, sports clubs, and so many more. They provide services that keep people safe, help them in times of need, and support them to live with dignity and to thrive. Charities make an important contribution to our society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EI also want to acknowledge that it\u2019s been a particularly challenging few years, and our community and voluntary sector has acted swiftly and often adapted the way that they work to support those who needed that additional support. I want to acknowledge that and the fact that there are lessons in their response for Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EIt is also a large sector. There are over 28,000 registered charities. Last year, it was reported that the equivalent of more than 145,000 people worked full time in the charitable sector. On top of that, close to 50 percent of New Zealanders volunteer either with an organisation or directly into their community. Charities also contribute to the strength of our economy, having spent almost $20 billion last year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EThis is also the sector where I spent most of my working life prior to entering Parliament. So it\u2019s an absolute privilege to read the Charities Amendment Bill for the first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EThe bill amends the Charities Act 2005, which is a key piece of legislation for the charitable sector, and it will make a meaningful difference to over 28,000 registered charities across Aotearoa New Zealand. Before I speak a little bit more about that and explain the changes in the bill, I\u2019d like to extend some thanks and outline the history of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EIn May 2018, Cabinet agreed to a review to modernise the Charities Act. I want to acknowledge my predecessors who started this work. Firstly, the Hon Peeni Henare in 2018 and then the Hon Poto Williams. I thank them both for building the foundations of this mahi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EPublic consultation on a range of issues then occurred in 2019. However, work was put on pause because of the COVID-19 pandemic, and I picked it back up when I became the Minister in late-2020. This piece of legislation has been a long time coming.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also like to mihi to the sector for their input and passionate engagement with this work. To everyone who attended consultation meetings, made submissions, and engaged with my officials, I extend my heartfelt thanks, and also to officials who have worked on this for many years. Views from the sector have been fundamental to the development of this bill and I thank them for the time and effort that they\u2019ve taken to share their experience and their expertise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EAs I mentioned, the Charities Act is a key piece of legislation for the sector. It was established back in 2005 to provide a voluntary registration, reporting, and monitoring regime to ensure that entities receiving tax benefits continue to carry out charitable purpose. The Act has been in place for almost 20 years, and there have been some pretty important changes over that period of time. In 2012, the Charities Commission was disestablished and an independent charities registration board was given the responsibility for registering and deregistering charities. The chief executive of the Department of Internal Affairs was also empowered with certain functions, mainly around education and support for charities and monitoring compliance with the Act. In 2015, new requirements were introduced for financial reporting for not-for-profit organisations, which meant that registered charities had to report to accounting standards when filing their annual return. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003ENow is a good time to make sure that legislative settings are still fit for purpose. An Act that is working well for charities, the regulator, and the public will help ensure that the charitable sector is effective and enjoys the trust and confidence of the public. Charities do important work and they should be able to focus on this work, but, equally, they receive benefits from being registered, and with that comes an obligation to be transparent. Transparency builds trust, and the public need to be able to trust that charities are responsible with their tax-free income.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EThe bill keeps the current registration, reporting, and monitoring framework of the Act intact because these fundamental aspects are sound. Instead, the bill makes practical improvements to reporting requirements for small charities, the appeals framework, governance requirements, and the regulatory decision-making and compliance tools. It will ensure that legal settings are up to date, fit for purpose, and will support charities to get on with their important work, while also safeguarding public trust and confidence in the sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EOne of the most significant changes of this bill is introducing a new appeals body for charities. Currently, if charities want to appeal a decision of the Charities Registration Board, they have to go to the High Court. As you can imagine, this can be costly, time-consuming, and difficult, particularly for small charities that are often run by volunteers and with limited financial resources. It\u2019s important that our system doesn\u2019t just work for those who have the resources to navigate it. We need to ensure that the services that are available, and access to them, is equitable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EWe need to remove the barriers to justice for charities, and so the bill empowers the existing Taxation Review Authority to hear Charities Act appeals. The authority will be faster, less formal, and cheaper than the High Court. Charities can represent themselves, which reduces legal costs, and they will have two months to lodge an appeal, rather than the current 20 working days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003ENow, you may be wondering: \u201CWhy the Taxation Review Authority?\u201D Tax and charities have long been linked. Prior to the enactment of the Charities Act, charitable status was determined by Inland Revenue. The bill gives the authority new jurisdiction, and it will be known as the Taxation and Charities Review Authority, when hearing charities appeals funding has been made available through Budget 2022 to enable that change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EThe bill also allows more decisions to be appealed as part of the work to improve access to justice. Rather than just limiting it to Charities Registration Board decisions, some of the more significant decisions of the CE can also be appealed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EBut access to justice isn\u2019t just about appealing the final decision; it\u2019s also about the decision-making process. The bill presents an opportunity to promote best-practice decision-making by the board and the chief executive. It requires certain decisions to be published for transparency and allows charities to be heard in person to state their case before a final decision is made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EOf course, charities wouldn\u2019t be much without the people who run them. The bill proposes several practical changes to clarify the roles and responsibilities of officers and promote good governance. Sometimes, charities get off track and need education and assistance to comply with the Act. However, when education and assistance has been exhausted and there is problematic behaviour within the charity, the compliance and enforcement tools in the Act become important. The bill improves compliance tools by making it clear what constitutes problem behaviour, and empowers the Charities Registration Board to disqualify an officer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EFinally, the bill enables very small charities to be exempt from reporting to the current financial accounting standards. The annual reporting obligations are a key feature of the Act and are important for achieving the Act\u2019s purpose. The reports are published on the public register. Complying with the reporting standards can be difficult for our smallest charities. The standards set by the External Reporting Board\u2014or XRB\u2014requires pages of financial statements. Charities often need the help of an accountant to complete them. The XRB is aware of the compliance burden and are finishing up consultation on a reduced standard for small not-for-profit entities, and that should make reporting easier and less burdensome. However, if the intended outcome of this work is not achieved, or the standards change over time, this bill provides a regulatory backstop to reduce the compliance burden for very small charities. To maintain transparency, exempted charities will still need to report basic information about their finances and activities in a simple annual return form. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003ETo sum up, this bill is simply about making things easier for charities and maintaining public support for charities. It\u2019s about making the Charities Act an accessible, transparent, and fit for purpose regulatory framework that avoids unnecessary compliance burden and can effectively target problem behaviour when it needs to. It means freeing up resources so charities can get on with the mahi that they\u2019re passionate about: delivering social services, connecting communities to support and resources, building resilience, and contributing to social cohesion. I urge everyone who has an interest in supporting the sector to get involved in the select committee process. I commend this bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00228b2b786b5da049efaf2b862261066e4b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b2b786b5da049efaf2b862261066e4b\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022859ffb8b560b4bee92b7aded5bc92ebf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022859ffb8b560b4bee92b7aded5bc92ebf\u0022\u003EMAUREEN PUGH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I stand to speak to the Charities Amendment Bill today on behalf of the National Party. I\u2019d like to begin by acknowledging and valuing the work that our charities and volunteers do. It\u2019s definitely a cornerstone of the National Party to support communities and especially to value the work that\u2019s undertaken across New Zealand. They deserve to work under legislation that is open and transparent and clear, but also workable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003ENow, we have heard from the Minister, the Hon Priyanca Radhakrishnan, the value of our volunteer and charity sector to this country, and it is substantial. In 2019-20, collectively in their reports, we heard: $19.6 billion in combined income, $18 billion spent in this country, and over $65 billion worth of accumulated assets\u2014so not an insignificant sector at all. But we also want our volunteers to be working in an environment that is supported and that enables them to revitalise, energise, and support their communities by being innovative and nimble. Of the 114,000 non-profit organisations in New Zealand, 28,000 are registered under the Charities Act, and they take several forms. There are legal structures that they choose: incorporated societies, incorporated trusts, unincorporated societies, unincorporated trusts, and limited liability companies, as well. Between them, they employ 160,000 full- or part-time employees\u2014so fantastic employers\u2014but, of course, they also manage hundreds of thousands of volunteers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EThe charitable purpose is a major part of the omission in this bill. I\u2019d just like to clarify that it is, in fact, a very, very complex legal concept, and it has evolved over 400 years of case law. The statute of charitable users came into force in England in 1601; so it has quite a lot of established case law. And the definition of \u201Ccharitable purpose\u201D is \u201Cthe relief of poverty, the advancement of education or religion, or any other matter beneficial to the community\u201D\u2014so quite broad. The legal definition of a charitable purpose may differ from what is commonly understood by the public. It is, in fact, not just about being worthy or good. So the charitable purpose is quite significant in this ongoing debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EBack in 2017, the Labour Party manifesto said that they would conduct a proper, first-principles review\u2014and independent review, at that\u2014of this Charities Act, but this bill does not deliver on that manifesto promise. But, then, delivery is not a strong point of this Government. It does tweak a few items, and some aspects are going to make compliance simpler, but they don\u2019t address the key items of concern that have been articulated by the charitable sector. They have been waiting on the post-implementation review for over 17 years now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EThe Labour Party policy in 2017 was also to consider the 2012 transfer of functions of the Charities Commission into the Department of Internal Affairs (DIA) and whether that transfer, implemented by National, has actually resulted in effectiveness and improved services and openness in information sharing by the sector. But there are limited checks and balances on Charities Services, now within DIA, because it\u2019s now a business unit of Government. Now, that Government department can be subjective in determining the nature and scope of the charitable purpose, but we also know that they can, by virtue of the fact that they can approve or decline a charitable status, make subjective decisions on a charity\u2019s stated charitable purpose. So none of the proposed amendments in this bill actually do address that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EOne other thing that has been noted by some stakeholders is how Charities Services tends to focus more on the activities of the charity and how they deliver on their charitable purpose rather than on their purpose. So this means that there is almost an expectation that charities will have similar deliverables, and that\u2019s simply not the case in reality, because every charity is different and every community is different, but their common goals or their outcomes may actually be very similar. So, for example, a charity that provides social support through a local non-governmental organisation, where its purpose is to improve the lives of its community, will have many and varied activities that it undertakes in order to deliver on that purpose\u2014anything from holding community picnics through to delivering counselling services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to go back to the beginning of the Charities Act here in New Zealand, which was in 2005, as mentioned by the Minister, by the then Labour Government. It was introduced in 2004 with stakeholder involvement, but when it got to select committee it was virtually rewritten, and when it was rewritten it was without any further consultation with the sector, with the public. And then it was rushed through in 2004, implemented in 2005, under urgency, in one day. So, in terms of an open and transparent process, we have been left devoid of the involvement of the charities sector in the original bill. So when the Labour Party\u2019s manifesto in 2017 said a first-principles review, I think the sector was very encouraged by that, because they thought that they were going to get back to where this bill began in 2004-05. But, sadly, that has not happened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EThe Minister has already stated, in some of her media, that she intends to have a fuller review after this bill has been implemented, but I would argue: if the Minister already acknowledges that a fuller review is required, why are we wasting Parliament\u2019s time with this piece of legislation? Because it could end up being completely irrelevant after another review. Are we not better to invest Parliament\u2019s time, the work of a select committee, in getting the bill right the first time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EThe Minister has mentioned appeals processes, and I\u2019d just like to touch on that. It does extend the time for appeals, and it is going to go to the Taxation and Charities Review Authority, but that is coming at a cost. It\u2019s going to cost the Ministry of Justice $439,000, according to the regulatory impact statement (RIS), for them to deliver that service. It\u2019s going to cost upwards of over $200,000 to appoint two new board members and provide the secretarial support, according to the RIS. So there is no free lunch here; obviously, there are going to be costs. But, also, even though the appeal can go to the taxation and charities review, it can then end up with the same decision being made, which means that it ends up in the High Court anyway. They have 20 days to deliver their second appeal, but at the moment, on current stats, appeals to the High Court are taking at least 12 months. So this could, in fact, end up being worse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to end my contribution by quoting Dame Cindy Kiro, Governor-General of New Zealand, who, in her speech at the Queen\u2019s memorial on Monday, said, \u201CIn her 70 years of service in her role as Sovereign, the Queen supported over 600 charities whose work provided comfort to the lonely, the sick, and the marginalised, and helped to protect our environment.\u201D The late Queen would expect us as legislators to be supporting charities. This bill will not achieve that goal. National will not be supporting it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022 data-id=\u0022f66aceebda264dbd8cb1f335b028761b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f66aceebda264dbd8cb1f335b028761b\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a great pleasure to speak on the Charities Amendment Bill. I want to acknowledge the Minister, the Hon Priyanca Radhakrishnan, who has brought this piece of legislation to the House, both for her service to this country\u2014working in many charities in the work she\u2019s done prior to coming to Parliament\u2014and also for progressing the bill today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EI am really delighted, having operated and run a charity myself\u2014Tauranga Women\u2019s Refuge\u2014for a number of years. I had the experience of having to go and speak to Admin \u0026amp; Accounting Solutions in Tauranga who were our bookkeepers, the people who cared for us and worked for charities in a really good way. They helped me file for what was a very small amount of money that we were responsible for. It was a large process, and, of course, now this Government has funded Women\u2019s Refuge in a different way and so, of course, they will have a lot more compliance, and they rightly should because this Government has given that money to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EAnyway, charities are very important, and this bill, very briefly, is going to alter the primary legislation by making practical changes to support charities to continue their vital contributions\u2014and some of us still volunteer our time. It reduces the compliance of small charities. It improves the process for charities to object to decisions. It requires the regulators to publish those decisions and consult with the sector on guidance. There is enhanced transparency, fairness, and accountability of the regulatory decision-making process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EI am hopeful that the sector fully engages. I look forward to working across the House and with many from the community in regards to this piece of legislation. I\u2019m very pleased the bill is coming to the Social Services and Community Committee. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00224d9e3a6b651740c884b97ca2385bea88\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d9e3a6b651740c884b97ca2385bea88\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to be talking on the first reading of the Charities Amendment Bill. This is a new bill put up by the Minister the Hon Priyanca Radhakrishnan. I\u2019m not sure how many bills she\u2019s put up, but\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c029238acb734a4a9a202b46228a8174\u0022\u003EHon Michael Wood\u003C/span\u003E: More than you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228966820a0bb84467a76303512811b2b1\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014no doubt it is good. I\u2019ve had two bills, Mr Wood, go through the House, so I may or may not have had more than the Minister, actually, but thank you for that little snarky comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EWe will be opposing this bill, as my good colleague noted. Of course, this is a really important piece of legislation because it is a really important set of organisations who do fantastic work in our communities. It\u2019s interesting, you know: 114,000 not-for-profit organisations spread across New Zealand, taking in just under $20 billion of income and paying out most of that, just over $18 billion, in terms of supporting vulnerable New Zealanders, and, obviously, quite significant assets that underpin it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBut it\u2019s interesting, looking at the breakdown of charities operating in 2021, by far the biggest component was education, training, and research\u2014just under 6,000 charities, Mr Speaker, and I know that you have a very close association with some of these charities. Religious activities, Mr Speaker, was the next highest component\u2014and, again, I know that you have a very strong interest in some of those. They\u2019re about 5,000. Then you start going down through arts and culture, community development\u2014health, actually, is amazingly low at only 2,000, which I am rather surprised about, especially given the dire and perilous state that we find our health system in today after five years of shocking mismanagement and restructuring by a Government who shouldn\u2019t be restructuring anything in the middle of a COVID crisis\u2014but let\u2019s move on. Social security, sport and recreation, and then it pretty much drops off after that. I think it employs about 160,000 people. They\u2019re hard-working people who freely give their time to their communities, and we should welcome and celebrate them for what they do for our communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThis bill should\u2019ve been a substantial change, and, unfortunately, we\u2019ve ended up with a tweak. I think that\u2019s wrong, and I suspect many people in this House are disappointed that what was previously set out as a major plank for the 2017 election for the Labour Party turned out to be a whimper. This so-called first-principles review\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cd54c96277e4aec8eb6b4a2080132e5\u0022\u003EMaureen Pugh\u003C/span\u003E: Where is it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022907a59873d6b41518c9df00aab8dde0c\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, Ms Pugh, I\u2019m not sure where it is. I don\u2019t even know where to find such a thing. But that\u2019s what should\u2019ve happened in this bill, because it is so important, as I\u2019ve said before. That first-principles review, according to the manifesto, if I\u2019m not mistaken, was going to be undertaken by an independent sector or expert in the charities sector. Well, what we get\u2014ha, ha! We got the Department of Internal Affairs, who, basically, already are overseeing the activities of the charities sector anyway. So that\u2019s sort of like saying, \u201CLet\u2019s go and review ourselves.\u201D I find this amazing. So the first-principles independent review has turned into a bit of a sham. I think if we had a more discerning Minister who knew more and wanted more, she might have said to that sector, \u201CLet\u2019s get this right.\u201D It is a shame that it\u2019s taken five years\u2014half a decade\u2014to get to this point where we can finally talk about this little bill. I think that is a missed opportunity\u2014a huge missed opportunity. As my colleague Maureen Pugh said, we should\u2019ve taken the time to get it right. I don\u2019t know how much more time it should\u2019ve taken to get right, but I\u2019m sure Maureen Pugh, if she\u2019s lucky enough ever to have hands on a portfolio like this, would get through it in a dose of salts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThere are some interesting things: the appeal process going to the Taxation Review Authority instead of the High Court. I think we should acknowledge the Minister. She talked about the appeal process taking up to two months. The big issue about that, of course, is we\u2019ve got a bit of a backlog in the High Court\u2014you know, that\u2019s half a decade of mismanagement in the court system, unfortunately. It all sounds good\u2014extend it to two months, but if you can\u2019t get an appeal; you can lodge it, but if you can\u2019t get an outcome for probably at least 12 months\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022313eba93295347608e7f1cd4e6254bd6\u0022\u003EMaureen Pugh\u003C/span\u003E: Years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3556822cb474e6cadf779441dd23afa\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014if you\u2019re lucky\u2014years\u2014putting it out to 12 months is probably impractical and probably unreasonable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo these are the sorts of changes that, you know, look, sound good. Some people will look at it and go, \u201CIt\u2019s OK.\u201D, but I\u2019m just not sure it\u2019s going to deliver the quantum leap that this sector\u2019s been crying out for. So it is with some regret that we have to oppose this bill. There\u2019s no doubt we\u2019ll work through the process during the select committee. Hopefully, we can knock it into shape\u2014needs a bit of intellectual grunt, I think, which Maureen Pugh will bring to the part, and our other colleagues on this side. But let\u2019s hope we can get to a better outcome so we don\u2019t end up getting into a place where we are squabbling over it and not doing a good thing for a sector that does so much for so many people in New Zealand, all free of charge, of course. That\u2019s why we need to get this bill right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022 data-id=\u002220f0e2aa49f74031b6d70da7e93b151d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220f0e2aa49f74031b6d70da7e93b151d\u0022\u003ETERISA NGOBI (Labour\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E \u5927\u5BB6\u597D\u3002 Talofa, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s always a privilege and an honour to speak in the House, not only as a member of the beautiful \u014Ctaki electorate but also as a member of the Social Services and Community Committee who will see this, the Charities Amendment Bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022217f4bcbd51d42bcb8727c936140f421\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Hard-working committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df05100956674a62aade0940e9ee3fc3\u0022\u003ETERISA NGOBI\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, very hard-working committee, absolutely. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003EWe know that this bill makes practical changes to support charities to continue their vital contribution to community wellbeing while also ensuring that contribution is sufficiently transparent to the public as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003EI want to actually talk about some of the experience I have in this space. Having worked as a contract manager for Oranga Tamariki, supporting NGOs and charities through their contracting work, not only through what their contract looks like, not only through getting them more money\u2014because we know that charities are run on the smell of an oily rag and lots of awesome volunteers\u2014but also reporting on their contract obligations. And generally, like I said, they manage to do that, and do such a great job in our communities, supporting our people, with little to nothing in the kitty to do that with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003EI also worked on the other side of that. I\u2019ve worked as a volunteer, and in the charities space with NGOs as well, and I know there\u2019s nothing more frustrating than being bogged down with mountains of paperwork\u2014and the cost of that\u2014when you know that you\u2019re already under-resourced and trying to support your community. On top of that, instead of being out there supporting your community, you\u2019re having to write these lengthy reports, often, and also finding the money and time to do that. So, instead of having to do that, the proposed changes in this bill will mean that for very small charities that will change. No longer will they be bogged down with mountains of paperwork and the costs of that; they can go out there, they can support our children, they can support our families, and they can support our elderly and do the work that they\u2019re really good at doing. So, for that reason, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022 data-id=\u0022713c8b398bd946d1823f007c9d62e1c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022713c8b398bd946d1823f007c9d62e1c4\u0022\u003EDr ELIZABETH KEREKERE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe. I rise on behalf of the Green Party to take a short call in support of the Charities Amendment Bill. And I thank the Minister, the Hon Priyanca Radhakrishnan, for bringing this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EThe Greens value a strong independent tangata whenua community and volunteer sector that contributes to our social, environmental, cultural, physical, spiritual, and economic wellbeing. Like others in this House, I\u2019ve spent much of my life in this broad and wide-ranging sector on many committees, boards, and trusts. My first role was as treasurer of the M\u0101ori Women\u2019s Welfare League, as a junior member in Dunedin at 15 years of age, and I\u2019m currently listed on the register as being on the trust board of two charities, one of which is T\u012Bwhanawhana Trust. That is for takat\u0101pui to tell our stories, build our communities, and leave a legacy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EIt has been a long road to get to this bill. When the Charities Amendment Bill was introduced in 2017, an earlier iteration, the Greens originally opposed it because it would have reduced appeal rights for charities. The relevant amendment was removed at later stages because of the concerns that were raised by the tangata whenua community and volunteer sector. The expansion of objection and appeal rights in this bill is therefore more aligned with our previous statements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EThe submission process for the department\u2019s review closed in May of 2019, and I would just like to do a shout-out to Sue Barker Charities Law, who we met with at the time, who consulted individually with over 200 organisations and key people. I\u2019m sad to say that when that process was actually paused in May of 2020, they were relieved because it seemed like the bill was getting worse instead of better. The 28,000 or so tangata whenua community and volunteer registered entities affected by this bill have waited a long time. So we very much look forward to many of you taking part in this select committee process and making submissions. We want to hear what you have to say about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EAs my colleagues have identified, the bill makes practical changes that include enabling simpler financial reporting, especially from very small charities, to reduce the burden of unnecessary compliance; improving access to justice for charities in the appeal process that is more affordable and at scale\u2014a small charity with hardly any money in the bank should not have to go to a High Court to get a decision\u2014promoting transparency and fairness through enhancing the decision-making requirements for these charities; clarifying the role of officers supporting the governance of charities; and improving all of those regulatory compliance and enforcement tools. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EThe Greens welcome greater Government trust in recognition of the tangata whenua community and volunteer sector. We support having the Charities Commission, now the Department of Internal Affairs, focused on registration and tax issues, and balancing the encouragement of charitable donations against the risk of scam charities for tax avoidance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EIn terms of the age thresholds identified in this bill, the Green Party youth policy acknowledges the mana and the mauri of young people. We accept the 18-year-old age limit proposed for at least one officer on a given charity, because it means 16- and 17-year-olds can still hold another or all of the remaining positions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EFinally, we are pleased that the approximately 60 percent of the estimated number of M\u0101ori charities, which are very small, will be affected by this. It will make their lives easier. They\u2019ll have considerably reduced compliance and, hopefully, reporting that is better suited to their needs. We do acknowledge, though, that this is still a very Eurocentric framework that our M\u0101ori, our iwi, our hap\u016B, and our wh\u0101nau organisations are working within. And so we note things like how to deal with k\u014Dh\u0101, principles of reciprocal obligation, are not really addressed in this bill. Those are things we will raise through this process. In the meantime, we commend this bill to the House. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022 data-id=\u002240cc6ad3086f42b98b926aef5444b46b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240cc6ad3086f42b98b926aef5444b46b\u0022\u003EDr JAMES McDOWALL (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise on behalf of ACT to make a very short call on this, just to make some comments. As someone who\u2019s been involved with charities over the past\u2014and the present\u2014I can definitely see the logic and the reasoning for a bit more trust in those smaller charities, and to ease the regulatory burden. Generally, less regulation can be a good thing\u2014although, one thing the select committee is going to have to look at is the potential for unintended consequences with this, with the smaller charities shifting from one side of the fence to the other, so definitely some things there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll also use this opportunity just to acknowledge the many charities throughout New Zealand who were absolutely hammered by lockdown\u2014and in terms of the fiscal impact, the organisational impact, and the effectiveness, that was a very, very tough time for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003ESo, as others have canvassed, for smaller charities, this bill pushes for a simpler reporting framework. It provides a better appeal process, with a separate tribunal. And, I think, unlike our friends in the National Party, our position is that we would like to see this go to select committee, so we will be supporting it, because we\u2019ll be very interested to hear what stakeholders think about this, and then we will assess our position from there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003EI acknowledge others\u2019 feedback that this is, based on what the scope could have been\u2014what it could\u2019ve done for charities\u2014probably not quite there, but, in terms of the significance, that is something that we can work out in select committee, I hope. So, with that\u2014as I said, it\u2019ll be short\u2014I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022 data-id=\u0022f48ecfaadfbe4a7bbd9945e69a994ff9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f48ecfaadfbe4a7bbd9945e69a994ff9\u0022\u003EANAHILA KANONGATA\u2018A-SUISUIKI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E \u8C22\u8C22, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s an honour and a privilege to stand to make a contribution to the Charities Amendment Bill. I want to acknowledge the Minister Priyanca Radhakrishnan for her contribution, and, in doing so, I want to acknowledge where she had said there are over 28,000 registered charities here in Aotearoa. Last year, it was reported that the equivalent of more than 145,000 people were working full time in the charitable sector. On top of that, close to 50 percent of all New Zealanders volunteer either in an organisation or directly in the community. So I want to, along with the Minister, echo acknowledgment of everyone in the sector who is doing really great work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003EThe bill: this bill keeps the current registration, reporting, and monitoring framework of the Act intact because these fundamental aspects are sound. However, the changes\u2014the bill makes practical improvements in reporting requirements for small charities, the appeals framework, governance requirements, and regulatory decision-making and compliance tools. It will ensure the legal settings are up to date, fit for purpose, and will support charities to get on with their important work while also safeguarding public trust and confidence in the sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003EOne of the most significant changes of this bill is introducing a new appeal body for the charities. So this authority will be faster, less formal, and cheaper than the High Court. Charities can represent themselves, which reduces legal costs and they will have two months to launch an appeal rather than the current 20 working days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295945ace-51e8-4dbc-a0e3-c19f4ed99ed9\u0022\u003EAlong with the Minister, I urge all the charitable trusts and community organisations to please submit to the select committee, particularly the P.A.C.I.F.I.C.A. Inc. women\u2019s group and all the churches out there. Thank you for your work. I commend this bill to the House. M\u0101l\u014D, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022438566e7e87a4b9384b9af2e47281e5d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022438566e7e87a4b9384b9af2e47281e5d\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei):\u003C/span\u003E I think it might be my turn. It\u2019s a pleasure to take a short call on the Charities Amendment Bill of 2022. I want to go back to 2005\u2014well, actually, earlier than that; to 2004\u2014and I remember the consultation on the initial work done on the 2005 charities bill. There was a lot of consultation with communities on it, and I remember particularly two meetings in my part of the world\u2014one in Ashhurst and one in Fielding. And it shows the significance of this bill and the impression it made on me because I can still remember them, which is quite frightening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d4dc5d8fcde41f8b20fed9f6b2e7ea1\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: You can remember Ashhurst?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1ec83eaff5e4553857bd347dbf0498e\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! I can remember the meetings\u2014the very meetings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022080ea412dd4942a9b4cc13e53e43d4f1\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Mr McKelvie. I just need to remind you this is a five-minute call, not a 10-minute call, which I\u2019m sure you\u2019ll have no problem filling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022716ae831e5664d7cae4bdcf0c9dc5123\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE\u003C/span\u003E: I hope you\u2019ll give me a couple of minutes as a result of the interruption, Mr Speaker, ha, ha! The point I\u2019m going to make is that there was significant community consultation undertaken on that Act. It came back to the select committee, and the select committee completely changed the Act as a result not, I think, of the consultation, actually, because what was consulted on and what was sold to our communities was what the Act was going to look like. When it came back to Parliament in 2005, it was a totally different beast.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EAnd the point I\u2019m making is that we\u2019ve got 28,000-odd charities in New Zealand, many of whom have well-resourced boards, well-remunerated boards, and well-remunerated staff who can deal with issues that Government put in front of them very easily, but thousands of these charities are very small entities\u2014they\u2019re either offshoots of Lions clubs or rugby clubs or community groups or little entities in our communities\u2014who have no resource and no ability to deal with complex and complicated reporting methods and things like that that we put in place to sort out the charities in the initial reading of that bill. So, again, my point is that there\u2019s a lot of work, I think, to be done, and I guess I\u2019m saying that I think much more work needs doing in this area than has been done in the course of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EThe National Party have said they\u2019re opposing it. And one of the reasons we will be opposing it is because of that very reason: the fact that we haven\u2019t got into this deeply enough and we haven\u2019t resolved the challenges\u2014and the significant challenges\u2014that face the vast variety of charities in our communities. I think some of the charities, in places like in our smaller communities particularly, they\u2019re very small entities who do a much, much greater amount of good than you would imagine in those communities. And the onus on them is challenging and, at times, difficult for those people operating those charities to operate\u2014to, I guess, comply with the level of compliance we insist on putting on them. So what I\u2019m saying is I think there\u2019s much more work that needs to be done around the Charities Act, and it will take a significant amount of work to do that\u2014much more work than the select committee will be able to do on this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ll be interested to see what the select committee gets in the way of submissions on this\u2014I think it will be significant and I think a lot of them will be out of scope with what\u2019s proposed in this bill, for the very simple reason that I mentioned a minute ago, and I think there\u2019s much more work needed on this bill. I think the select committee will turn up a whole lot of issues that will be very interesting and will point clearly to the shortcomings that are contained in the current Charities Act 2005.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003ESo I think it\u2019s a very important sector for our communities; I think it\u2019s a very important sector for New Zealand. I think there undoubtedly are some charities that shouldn\u2019t be charities, and there undoubtedly are some charities that are penalised by the Acts we\u2019ve put in place that do great work in our communities. So it\u2019s a very hard balance to get, but I do think that the process will turn up some really interesting information and I think that the select committee will have a battle on its hands getting to a point where it can, I guess, moderate this piece of legislation to be something really useful. So it\u2019s a massive task\u2014a very small bill, really, but a massive task and I wish them all the best.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e1066664bd446cc849fe921aa01d967\u0022\u003EDr Emily Henderson\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00228c7fdf4775424d109777798975bbbbb2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c7fdf4775424d109777798975bbbbb2\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Duncan Webb, I think, got to his feet just a little bit quicker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022e69a2475a973497b84dcd22dd58c91ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e69a2475a973497b84dcd22dd58c91ec\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, thank you\u2014it\u2019s so competitive on this side of the House. We\u2019re so keen to speak on this legislation to improve charities. I was particularly interested in Mr McKelvie\u2019s view that there are some charities out there that shouldn\u2019t be charities. I found that interesting, but certainly I think I would share the sentiment that there are some organisations of charitable status out there that need to examine their behaviours and make sure they\u2019re acting consistently with their charitable purposes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESometimes an organisation can lose sight of those charitable purposes in the hurly-burly of delivering services that may be not-for-profit but, really, we\u2019ve got to make sure that charities have the tools at their disposal and the structures and understanding of how the law\u2019s supposed to work, so that that they can constantly review their behaviours against appropriate standards in the charitable sector. And that\u2019s one of the big changes that this bill makes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, obviously it\u2019s disappointing that the National Party hasn\u2019t chosen to support this bill, but I\u2019m sure they\u2019ll be constructive when they come to the select committee and bring their expertise in this sector from across the country. It is important that we get as much scrutiny of this bill as possible so that we can strengthen this important sector of our community. Kia ora, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022 data-id=\u00228cd95d9aa194431d8d3aaddbb6b62163\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228cd95d9aa194431d8d3aaddbb6b62163\u0022\u003EDr EMILY HENDERSON (Labour\u2014Whang\u0101rei):\u003C/span\u003E \u8C22\u8C22, Mr Speaker. So enthusiastic am I to commend this bill to the House that I was somewhat ahead of myself earlier, and I do apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EI first want to thank the Minister for bringing this important piece of work to the House. Charities are a significant feature of our lives and, in particular, in the mental health sector. From my early teens, I grew up in the back room of one such charity\u2014the Miriam Centre, a child and family abuse centre set up in Whang\u0101rei by my mum. Over the years, I have watched the complexity of regulatory demands on charities, often taxing and stretching people already stretching to cover the needs of the people they are there to serve. Simplicity and ease of operation is key to ensuring that charities can do their vital work with confidence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EI am looking forward to reviewing and strengthening the bill as part of the Social Services and Community Committee, a committee which has within it already considerable personal and professional experience of charities, as described by Angie Warren-Clark and Terisa Ngobi before me. I would strongly encourage the public and the charity sector to have their say, even if that means personally. Select committee hearings will, for me, turn into \u201CBring Your Mum to Work Day\u201D. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022 data-id=\u002252f3468514c845d9980413ed157195d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252f3468514c845d9980413ed157195d5\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. It\u2019s said that charity begins at home, and that means a person\u2019s first responsibility is to meet the needs of their own family and friends. So this Charities Amendment Bill is an amendment to the initial Charities Act 2005, which was, again, amended in 2012. So the Act\u2019s been in place for 16 to 17 years, last amended 10 years ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003ECharity begins at home. I\u2019ll come to speak to the bill, but just on that key point, this is about charitable organisations and the provision of goodwill, and contribution of services to meet the needs of their own within communities. In the general debate today, there were constructive comments and there were reality checks made about how the Government ought to be providing charity by addressing the needs of our community, in the interests of our people at home. My colleague Chris Bishop talked about the homelessness that we have in this country and the reality check, despite the comments from the Government benches, of a pessimistic outlook from the Opposition benches. The reality check is: that is life in the hardship of New Zealanders\u2014charity begins at home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EI turn now to the Charities Amendment Bill. It\u2019s interesting because there has been a 127-page regulatory impact statement, which I\u2019ve endeavoured to read in the last couple of hours, but I do turn to some key critical points about that. The context of this bill is\u2014I\u2019ve talked about 2005 when the Charities Act was passed; it was amended in 2012. Prior to that, there was no register of charities and no consistent information about their activities and funding. Then, further in, the regulatory impact statement, a 127-page document, talks about the engagement of the Department of Internal Affairs with public consultation in 2019 consisting of 27 community meetings held across the country that 1,200 people attended, an online presentation was viewed 650 times, and there were 364 written submissions. There are approximately 28,000 registered charities in New Zealand out of over 114,000 non-profit organisations. This is our community and voluntary sector. Charity begins at home and is in our communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003ESo approximately 28,000 are registered under the Charities Act. My point is that the stakeholder engagement commenced in 2019\u2014the department reported back in 2021 that it conducted targeted consultation with representatives from the sector but that there were limitations in relation to that. One of the key findings that came out of the report\u2014and for people who are interested to read that, it\u2019s identified at page 14\u2014is that \u201CFirst principles issues have been excluded from this work, including some issues that were raised by submitters in 2019.\u201D Those first-principle issues importantly include an examination and redefining of what \u201Ccharitable purposes\u201D are, under section 5 of the Charity Act 2005. That has been totally deemed out of scope by the Minister, in terms of the review and the consideration of amendments to this bill\u2014there\u2019s the first limitation, the oversight by this Government, factoring in and taking into account the engagement with the public and the community in 2019, by already limiting the scope of the revision of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s really important, and that\u2019s why the National Party does not support this bill. But, in saying that, by not supporting the reality\u2014reality check is, this is going to select committee, where it will be examined and scrutinised by the Social Services Committee, on which the National Party is represented by my colleagues Maureen Pugh and Louise Upston. So the Minister, in addressing the House earlier on, has talked about the critical elements that will be examined. The most critical element is that the scope of this bill is limited. My colleague Maureen Pugh addressed the House and the importance that the National Party\u2014we value our voluntary sector; we value the work that is done in this important charitable space. However, we also value the commitment and honouring of promises that have been made. The Labour Government included a first-principles review of the Charities Act in their 2017 manifesto. Regrettably, we\u2019re not seeing that evidenced out. Intent and goodwill is all very well and good; we need to address the substance and the substantive issues that are impacting on our communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EIn typical fashion, the Government has failed to deliver on that promise. Here we are, before the House, striving to hold the Government to account. This bill will go to the first level of scrutiny at select committee, then it will get reported back to the House. But how much? Again, because the reality is\u2014reality check, New Zealand public\u2014select committees are weighted in favour of the Labour Government. Despite submissions that are made from the public, despite the representation and advocacy made from the Opposition benches in support of the public\u2019s views, the Labour Government has an intent and an intention on matters that it brings before the House. So, yes, it will be scrutinised\u2014it ought to be, appropriately. But will the Government be accountable and listen to the public with the concerns that have been expressed? The public consultation was in 2019. Thus far, it\u2019s not been evidenced in the scope and with the proposed amendments in this bill before the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EIn concluding, I said that charity does begin at home. I invite members in the House to debate and address the issues in the bill. Charity begins at home. I\u2019ve heard some uncharitable comments in this House as members have spoken to address this bill. So, on that note, the National Party, regrettably\u2014and the reason we do opposite this bill is because the scope isn\u2019t addressing the significant, critical, substantive changes that are required to make better, to improve not only the legislation but how that impacts on our people, our families, our communities. The National Party and I, as I stand as the last speaker for the party and my colleagues, oppose this bill. I do invite the Labour members sitting on select committee to factor in and heed what our public is saying. Although the scope\u2019s been limited, this seems to be a foregone conclusion. The National Party regrettably opposes this bill in its current form because it\u2019s scant, and it\u2019s missing significant, substantive factors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022 data-id=\u00226ea469f18ee34c3193688fbbee8b7e50\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ea469f18ee34c3193688fbbee8b7e50\u0022\u003EDr LIZ CRAIG (Labour): \u003C/span\u003E\u8C22\u8C22, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a real pleasure to speak on this first reading of the Charities Amendment Bill, and I\u2019d just like to congratulate Minister Priyanca Radhakrishnan for bringing the bill to the House\u2014it\u2019s a wonderful bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EBefore speaking today, I had a look on the web and went through the Charities Register and just looked at the huge number of charities that are operating in New Zealand. It was amazing to see how many of them were bringing in hundreds of millions of dollars, but then some only bringing in a few thousand each year. So we\u2019ve got a huge diversity in terms of the scope of charities operating in New Zealand and the financial size of each of those entities. Also, going through the names of a lot of those charities it was interesting to see how many of them we relied on for aspects of our daily lives. So we had academic institutions, we had churches, we had rotary clubs, we had animal rescues, and we even had highland pipe bands. So just a huge diversity of things in terms of the charities, in terms of the work that our communities rely on. We rely on good charities to deliver the services that our communities need, but we also rely, in many cases, on the work of the volunteers. They put in many, many hours to make sure those charities can deliver the benefits that they have been developed to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003ELooking at the Charities Register, I think what it does is it maintains public trust in these charities. I think that\u2019s really important, because if you\u2019ve got information that\u2019s publicly available, then anybody wanting to sit down and think, \u201CCan I volunteer for this charity? Do my views and my beliefs align with what they\u2019re doing?\u201D\u2014if they\u2019re wanting to volunteer, if they\u2019re wanting to donate, but also if they\u2019re wanting to use the services of the charity, they can actually go online and have a look at all their contact details. You can have a look at what they\u2019re doing in terms of the work, and you can also have a look at their financial position. I think that\u2019s really important. For many of the organisations operating in our community that\u2019s really useful information that we can have on their work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EI also think it\u2019s important to acknowledge\u2014and that\u2019s what this bill does\u2014that charities are often run by volunteers who have limited amounts of time but absolute passion for the work that they do. And in many cases, the financial documents that they need to put in place are actually quite disproportionate to the scrutiny that\u2019s required. I think that\u2019s the thing that we need to weigh up, and I think what this bill does is it looks at that balance. I\u2019m really looking forward to hearing submissions on this during the select committee process, because it\u2019s important to be thinking about what is the basic amount of information that we need to make sure that the transparency and the accountability of the charities is there, but also thinking that what we don\u2019t want to do is unduly take up the time of those volunteers when they should be out there in the community doing the important work that they do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EOne of the things the bill does is it enables simpler financial reporting for very small charities so that it can reduce their compliance burden. I think what we\u2019re looking at here is the capacity to have regulations that can provide a lot more detail around who those smaller charities are, and then be thinking about what it is that we need in that respect to be able to provide the information we need. So what that will mean is that those charities, if we get that right, can spend a bit of time on their financial reporting, but they can spend most of their time out there in the community doing the work that they love. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EAnother issue that we\u2019ve got is, again, coming back to thinking of these charities and the work of volunteers, many of whom, like I said, are busy doing other tasks and also have limited resources. And if you want to get access to justice to have appeals, if the charities want to appeal decisions of the Charities Registration Board, then, at the moment, what they have to do is they actually have to go to the High Court. Anybody that\u2019s been through a court process will know that not only is that incredibly costly, it is incredibly time-consuming; there can be delays in terms of being able to get access to your case being heard. What this will do is it will enable a charities review authority to be able to hear those appeals in the first instance. It won\u2019t mean that people don\u2019t have access to the High Court, and, indeed, you know, the Taxation and Charities Review Authority may well refer the case on. But what that means is that, in a much more simple and a much more affordable way, charities will have access to being able to appeal and have those issues considered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003ESo I think this is a really, really important bill, and I think it will allow charities to, as I say, get that balance right between what they have to do in their financial reporting and also what they can do in terms of the work that they do. I think the select committee process is incredibly important because what I\u2019m hoping is that many charities will come and they\u2019ll discuss how the bill will relate to their situation. Because, as I said, when I was looking through the register, what we\u2019ve got is some of those very large academic institutions who are doing some amazing research. We\u2019ve got other organisations, churches, rotary clubs. They\u2019re going out there in the community, but their needs are very, very different and their reporting needs are very different. And I think the other thing is that for people wanting to access the services of those charities then, basically, that reporting requirement is very different. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003ESo I think this is a really important bill and it will provide that extra support for charities to be able to get that balance right and think about where they want to go next. There\u2019s a range of other issues that are covered in the bill, some of them are minor and technical; some of them are more substantive. But I think this is a really significant bill, and I\u2019m looking forward to hearing submissions during the select committee process. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fdbf081fdbb048de8ae5495e50308ab0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Charities Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 84\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 33\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000413\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000414\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Social Services and Community Committee.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eb7b136c24dc4dbc882b63f731c5a0b1\u0022\u003EAnimal Welfare Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ea39b0eb29064a2db5759c427b820c28\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000417\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 27 September.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u00227c263313e340457bb739ce1e5dea047d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c263313e340457bb739ce1e5dea047d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019ll take a short call on the Animal Welfare Amendment Bill, because much has already been said over many readings around this and the nature of what has been proposed by the Government in this case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ESome of the earlier speeches really focused on the issue of bobby calves and the nature of what actually will happen to those calves now, because in this case many stock that would have gone for sale will now have to be processed at a very young age. So that is an issue which contrasts, I guess, with the intention of what we hear the Government is wanting to do over time, which is to increase the percentage of calves that are reared. And there does become an issue that if the farmers are expected to rear those stock and they don\u2019t have a source to be able to sell those stock, then it becomes an issue for the New Zealand farming sector in general. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ETaking away this opportunity for farmers to sell that stock at a later age really does create some issues down the track if that bobby calf percentage, for example, that would have to be reared was mandated. That then would create some big issues for some of the dynamics in the New Zealand primary sector. Traditionally, the dairy industry has been one of the more profitable land-based sectors, and the ability of that sector then having to rear that many calves actually then compromises your sheep and beef sector, a sector that\u2019s already under attack through forestry in many cases, because the land classes that the sheep and beef farmers are generally on are much more suitable for forestry as they\u2019re generally cheaper to purchase than the dairying land. So there could be some implications down the track from decisions like this that could be complicated or compounded, you could say, by further decisions that a Government may make around young stock. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EIt may seem like a fairly simple decision for the Government of the day at the moment, but cutting off this option actually does have some implications down the track if further decisions were to be made. So we on this side of the House oppose the bill. We think the Government hasn\u2019t considered the long-term implications for the sector and it\u2019s very much a knee-jerk reaction to probably get some urban votes and hasn\u2019t taken into account what actually needs to happen in the New Zealand primary sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EIn saying that, we all want to make sure that the highest standards of any transport of stock, especially to overseas, are maintained and met. So there\u2019s no doubt and no question from this side that that\u2019s something that could be worked on, and would also be, without question, something that needed to happen if this trade was to continue. There\u2019s also the idea of the scale of the trade: that potentially the Government could\u2019ve taken a much more considered approach. We need to have an open economy where we do trade, and if they felt that the scale of the trade was getting too big, then there may have been an option for the Government to some kind of cap process rather than a complete ban of the trade. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a477ccc627a74c098391ec64afc4e633\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225551ff6b53e948fc954c290d7ade13fe\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: And the Labour members may be laughing, but it\u2019s a trade that\u2019s been going on forever and a day, and you know, there\u2019s also the implications of what the Ministry for Primary Industries is doing around embryos and semen to stop, effectively, a lot of that coming into New Zealand, and so it could actually close the genetic base of New Zealand if we\u2019re not willing to trade. So there are some wider implications than just the, \u201COh, yeah, no, we\u2019ve banned the export of livestock and that\u2019s a great idea from the Labour Party members\u201D. There\u2019s actually some real implications around the genetic diversity of the New Zealand herd if we\u2019re having a closed approach in New Zealand to its fullest extent. And there will be some implications, I\u2019m sure, if further decisions are made by Governments around bobby calves in future. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6cfdef404c047a3bcabec3ecaa162b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6cfdef404c047a3bcabec3ecaa162b1\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora and thank you, Madam Speaker, or \u8C22\u8C22, seeing as it\u2019s Chinese Language Week. We all want an absolutely thriving agricultural sector, but the difference is that for the Labour Party, there are some bottom lines, and animal welfare is a bottom line. I know that on the other side of the House, there are a number of people who own farms or operate farms. They understand animal welfare, and they also understand the need to be at the very peak of the quality pyramid when we\u2019re trading from a place like New Zealand and that there is no room whatsoever to have anything other than the highest possible standards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI\u2019m very happy that New Zealand is leading the world in terms of saying that our trade in animals and in livestock will be subject to the highest and most rigorous animal welfare standards because we know that the developed markets\u2014our most prestigious and profitable markets\u2014take that very, very seriously indeed. I know that those people in the agricultural sector absolutely want to do that and it is the Government\u2019s job to make sure that the brand of New Zealand having the highest-quality produce\u2014food and fibre\u2014is protected, and that\u2019s what we\u2019re doing here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EWhat\u2019s more, this is not some\u2014I think the words \u201Cknee-jerk\u201D were used by the Opposition. It\u2019s not, for a number of reasons. Firstly, it\u2019s been under contemplation for quite some years, well before the tragedy that\u2019s been debated and discussed in this House already today. Secondly, we heard Minister Meka Whaitiri talk about the expert advice that she\u2019s getting and the fact that, given where New Zealand is and given the destination of livestock, it\u2019s not actually possible to have a live-export trade that is humane. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, we can use best efforts and we can have best practice, but the fact of the matter is that if you are going to put hundreds or thousands of beasts, livestock\u2014sheep, cattle, goats, or whatever\u2014on a vessel for 10 to 14 days across the equator, it is going to be unbelievably stressful. It is not going to be consistent with the welfare of those animals. Whilst you can put as many veterinarians on board as you like and you can have as much water and feed available and you can space them out and you can do all the things you like, the fact is that when beasts that come from a temperate climate in New Zealand are put on board a vessel in constrained circumstances and travel across the tropics to Saudi Arabia, it\u2019s not going to be humane. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d9579cca3854939b44db13ce0915d91\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: From the animal welfare expert Duncan Webb. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7bc27bb5895417fbd82773a189596ce\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: So this bill\u2014and, you know, here\u2019s a prediction for the Opposition. I predict that we will be looked at as a leader in the field and we will see some of our competitors in this market follow us. Why? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f76eb7e36cef401d8c89921169213cac\u0022\u003EBarbara Kuriger\u003C/span\u003E: We are looked at as the leaders\u2014who\u2019s in the trail now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239750dbe927349109aa22e79869b966d\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Because this is not only good\u2014and Barbara Kuriger is sitting there chipping away, but she\u2019s one of the farmers I admire. She\u2019s a woman who has an interest in organic farming and who takes the welfare of her cattle very seriously, and I suspect that were she the person on board one of these vessels, when the animals are stressed and are absolutely distressed, she would be very, very upset indeed, because I think she values that here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo I know she has to pretend that she\u2019s onside with her party, but I know that she\u2019s a farmer who knows what quality is, she\u2019s a farmer who knows what animal welfare is, and she is absolutely going to be consistent with the Labour Party approach, which puts New Zealand first, puts the welfare of animals first, and puts our market first, and that\u2019s what this bill does. The world will follow. This is an absolute spearhead in good marketing, good branding, and good animal welfare, and that is why I absolutely commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022 data-id=\u00229ecbf15f38a9494684b129a3470ab727\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ecbf15f38a9494684b129a3470ab727\u0022\u003EANGELA ROBERTS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker\u2014talofa, Madam Speaker. It is my pleasure to rise and take a call on the Animal Welfare Amendment Bill. I\u2019m a little confused about the understanding from the other side of the House. This bill is clear, it is concise, it was well signalled, and it was well traversed in the select committee. And I just want to acknowledge my colleagues in the Primary Production Committee. I think Jo Luxton signalled that we work really hard to come to consensus solutions and this was not one of those occasions. But everybody turned up in good faith and made submissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EI acknowledge the submitters and I acknowledge the communities that are impacted by this legislation. But I\u2019m really curious about the idea that we can look after these animals by establishing some sort of gold standard. It was curious\u2014like I say, submitters turned up in good faith, and we asked them good questions that they tried to answer. But they didn\u2019t know, despite the fact Australia is working on something, what the cost of meeting a gold standard would be because they didn\u2019t know where they are now and they didn\u2019t know where they were planning on going nor how they were going to get there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EI think that\u2019s quite telling, because what that says is\u2014we heard from the other side of the House that this is something that could be worked on. Well, I think, actually, that the animals we care for and our primary exporters deserve more than that. When we support our farmers and our primary industry, it isn\u2019t just \u201CWe trust you get on with it.\u201D; it\u2019s \u201CWe trust you and we will support you to build a sustainable future for our primary industries, for our exporters, and for our economy and our nation.\u201D So this gold standard that anybody\u2019s had an opportunity to develop before now, because apparently, you know, there\u2019s been a few \u201Cconcerning\u201D matters for animals that have been transported\u2014nobody\u2019s worked on it till now. Nobody was going to work on it until we made them, and that\u2019s very, very concerning. We\u2019ve got an opportunity here. This is a really great example of how we are progressive, and how we have ambition for this country, for our primary exporters, and for our primary industries. It\u2019s a great example of how we\u2019re supporting them to make a just transition. Because it\u2019s hard. I live in Taranaki and it\u2019s a hard conversation to have about this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard that there are concerns about any role a Government might play in the market: \u201CWe should just leave it to the market. The global market will sort it out. If consumers don\u2019t like it, they\u2019ll stop buying our products.\u201D Well, actually, the interesting thing is the Government does have a role to play in global trade. This Government has committed and successfully negotiated free-trade agreements. The really interesting thing about these latest free-trade agreements is they are progressive and they are innovative. And it\u2019s really interesting to see how Governments have seen that this is actually a mechanism that enables a nation to reward and support its own exporters. Because what it does is it says: actually, if we think you guys aren\u2019t stepping up to your Paris accord commitments, then that\u2019s not fair on our farmers. So what we\u2019ve done is we have committed to supporting our wonderful primary sector, who are innovators, as we\u2019ve heard. We\u2019ve got an amazing, innovative primary sector. What we do in those free-trade agreements is we\u2019re supporting them and lifting the bar for everybody. And what we\u2019re seeing is other countries around the world are going, \u201CCrikey, I want a bit of that, so maybe we have to lift our game as well.\u201D So instead of a race to the bottom in how we care for our animals, it is about supporting those in our primary sector who are doing great things. We\u2019re shifting practice, we\u2019re rewarding shifting practice, and we\u2019re working towards an ethical, efficient, and sustainable primary sector globally. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EThe really interesting thing is\u2014I love a teachable moment, as an economics teacher. I always talk to students about sunrise industries, and it\u2019s interesting when you hear from the other side of the House that we\u2019re going to go backwards if we don\u2019t allow this to continue. The interesting thing is we are going to be left behind. The EU have made a commitment. Now, they have banned exports for anything\u2014this is the first step\u2014more than eight hours, and those animals don\u2019t have to cross the equator. What they\u2019ve done is they\u2019ve made a commitment to a transition, because it is about shifting everybody, to a more efficient and ethical system that favours the transport of semen or embryos over breeding stock, and carcasses and meat over animals being moved for slaughter. Now, we don\u2019t have to worry about that bit because, funnily enough, as usual, we led the world with innovation, with frozen lamb from down in Otago, a very long time ago. So why not lead the world again? We are ambitious for our primary exporters and we believe that by supporting something that is sustainable, it is efficient and it is ethical.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EWe heard about Winston Peters earlier today\u2014not Winston Peters, bless him. We heard about Winston Churchill looking at opportunity in times of challenge. There is an opportunity here. The EU have made a commitment to invest in more and better solutions to reduce the need to transport live animals. They are raising the bar and so are we. We are ambitious for our primary industries and we know that they\u2019re up for it, and we\u2019re prepared to commit through free-trade agreements to a whole pile of commitments whereby we will be able to show leadership globally. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EThis is mainly about animal welfare, but the leadership that happens when the world continues to look at us\u2014do they look at us for best practice with dairy farming? Absolutely. This is something else that they can look to us for best practice. How do we get around the challenges that have been presented? We can and we are. And so it is really great to see this bill coming to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EI acknowledge the submitters. They did come in good faith. And I need to acknowledge the Minister for having the courage to committing to this. This was well signalled. And the opportunity that was afforded by that was to have the conversations about how we shift away from the\u2014in very recent years\u2014growth of this sector, and how we mitigate the risks and the costs, effectively, of what we do about bobby calves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s wonderful to see this leadership. I think that when you hear not just\u2014obviously, the EU haven\u2019t got the challenges we have. If you look at Chile, they also have to cross the equator and they\u2019re looking to us for leadership. That helps our global brand and that helps people to trust all over the world when we are selling our products, and it helps us to show the world why we are proud of our primary industries. I have no problem in supporting the work that has gone into making this bill happen and to make sure that our primary sector has an opportunity to really, really step up. So because of that, because of this opportunity for a just transition to be supported, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u002297766795e91f4fcf9590e0761ddf8f58\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002297766795e91f4fcf9590e0761ddf8f58\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I rise as the member of Parliament for Southland to speak on the Animal Welfare Amendment Bill. I\u2019ve been very interested to hear speeches from the other side of the House talking about a just transition and New Zealand leading the world, an export nation. This bill is about stopping exports. It\u2019s about stopping New Zealand\u2019s incredible dairy farmers from being able to send animals to the world rather than developing a gold standard to make sure we are the best in the world. Just closing the borders\u2014this is Labour\u2019s solution. Stop the borders, just stop trade. Don\u2019t come up with a better idea, don\u2019t improve things, don\u2019t make it better\u2014just stop it. That\u2019s all they\u2019re doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s just pause there a moment. Dairy farmers in New Zealand have the world\u2019s lowest carbon footprint, half the emissions of other international producers. Do we hear this from Labour? Almost never. New Zealand has approximately five million people and roughly the same number of cows, producing 21 billion litres of milk every year. We\u2019re the eighth-largest dairy producer in the world, with approximately 11,000 dairy farmers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ENow, let\u2019s look at another example. Brazil, by way of contrast, has four times the number of dairy cows, over 20 million, but produces less than twice the amount of milk: 36 billion litres, with a huge 900,000 dairy farmers. So New Zealand dairy farmers deserve recognition for how effective and efficient they are at producing food for the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EWe also need to produce animals for the world, and if I just point to one example right now that\u2019s top of people\u2019s minds: the Ukraine. There is a war in Europe now\u2014unbelievably, but there is a war in Europe between Russia and Ukraine. Now, Ukraine urgently needs at least 50,000 cows to replace their dairy herd which has been lost. They are estimating they may lose 150,000 cows, a third of their national herd, and for Ukraine to produce enough milk, cheese, and butter for their population, they\u2019re going to need dairy heifers from partner countries to restock the national herd. Can New Zealand help Ukraine? No, it cannot, because the Labour Government is stopping the trade of dairy cows and heifers being sent to the world. We cannot offer Ukraine assistance with their national herd because of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a crying shame that we are just stopping trade rather than actually thinking about what we can do to make sure we weed out cowboys. None of us want cowboys. None of us want to see animals suffering on trips across the ocean. We want to make sure the cowboys are out of the industry. Australia has shown how to do it. Australia has shown they can actually implement a gold standard, they can get great trade deals\u2014they\u2019ve got a fantastic trade deal with the United Kingdom. They\u2019ve proven they can do it. Has New Zealand followed Australia\u2019s lead in this respect? No. So all this talk that we\u2019re hearing from the other side of the House about leading the world, well, no, we\u2019re not. Australia has led the way, showing how you can have a gold standard that makes sure you can look after animals when they\u2019re being transported across the oceans and have the credibility in the markets, and that you can get good trade deals. They\u2019ve shown how to do it. They\u2019ve shown it can be done. The Labour Government in New Zealand has not followed this, and instead they\u2019ve just shut it down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ELook, it\u2019s going to cost New Zealand farmers about $475 million per annum\u2014$475 million per annum. I should note that this is extra cash profit for farms, not just revenue. For those who may be on the other side of the House who don\u2019t quite get what that means, revenue is just money coming through. It\u2019s not money that you can actually keep in the bank and use for other things. This is talking about cash profit for farmers. So this is enormously valuable money when there\u2019s a cost of living crisis which is impacting the whole country, and certainly impacting regional New Zealand, because, yes, they\u2019re getting good prices for dairy products, for meat, etc. in New Zealand at the moment, but the costs have gone up enormously. The input costs\u2014the cost of fuel, the cost of labour, the cost of vehicles, you name it; everything\u2014have gone up significantly, and that means the profit margins have reduced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ESo losing $475 million per annum, to regional New Zealand is a big, big deal, and that is exactly what this bill does. Labour has just shut the borders, shut down this part of the economy, and doesn\u2019t propose another solution, but they create another problem, because it\u2019s estimated that there are going to be some 150,000 bobby calves which are going to have to be slaughtered. What\u2019s going to happen with those 150,000 bobby calves? This is a major, major problem, because the meat processors have a gigantic shortage of skilled workers. They are already struggling to process the animals that they need to at the present time, and have been for some time. They don\u2019t have the skilled workers that they need, and 150,000 additional bobby calves being sent to the meat works is going to create an enormous problem. It\u2019s difficult not to see an animal welfare crisis being created by the so-called Animal Welfare Amendment Bill. This bill is creating more problems. It\u2019s seeking a solution and creating a hell of a lot more problems, and it\u2019s incredibly sad to see this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ELook, there\u2019s all this talk about dairy herds, and, you know, some people don\u2019t get that we have the most carbon-efficient dairy farmers in the world. But, look, the dairy herd in New Zealand is actually decreasing by about 20,000 a year and has been doing so for the last five years. So we actually have a reducing dairy herd, but we have a very good dairy industry, with about 11,000 dairy farmers who are showing the world how you can be the most carbon-efficient dairy farmers in the world, creating incredibly good stock. Now we cannot share that with the rest of the world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ELike I said, one example is the Ukraine. Another example that springs to mind is Indonesia. Indonesia also has got foot-and-mouth disease. They\u2019re going to need to replace a whole lot of the dairy herd. They will not be able to get them from New Zealand, and that is another crying shame, because we have a responsibility to assist other countries with the livestock that they need so that they can feed their populations. I note another example: China is rebuilding its dairy herd, and will New Zealand be able to assist with that? No, it will not, again. So we are missing out on significant trading opportunities and showing how we can be the most responsible leader in this space, as we are in so many other spaces, and that is a huge shame.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ESo, with that, I am hoping I\u2019m making it very clear that we are deeply opposed this bill. It is a major mistake by this Government and something that we are going to have to look at next year. The New Zealand dairy farmers deserve enormous recognition for what they do for our country, and we are very proud to support them on this side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022 data-id=\u00228b2390c6f86a44e78cb28c67836df027\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b2390c6f86a44e78cb28c67836df027\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E \u8C22\u8C22 and talofa. As the final speaker on this Animal Welfare Amendment Bill\u2014the third and final reading\u2014it is a privilege to make a short contribution to this bill. I wish to thank you for the opportunity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EThe Minister who spoke earlier on the bill and also Minister Meka Whaitiri highlighted a number of concerns and why this bill is at the forefront.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EFirstly, I would like to acknowledge the loss of life of not just the livestock but the members of the community. When the ship sank, it was a real tragedy, and it would have been very traumatic for the members to lose not just the livestock but also members of their family. I want to acknowledge that, because sometimes these things are forgotten in the eyes of risky business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EWhilst I was not a member of the Primary Production Committee, I would like to thank them for this work. I would also like to thank the officials for this work, and the submitters. There were 637 written submissions, which were quite varied, as I understand from the evidence, but also there were 33 oral submitters who raised a number of concerns, and also the mixed feedback that the select committee could not decide on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EIn my short contribution, I do want to just speak on a couple of points\u2014namely, the bill is to ban the practice of exporting live cattle, deer, sheep, and goats by ship and the transition period is until 30 April 2023. And that\u2019s actually not too far away. As we\u2019ve heard in the earlier k\u014Drero by both Ministers, it is a real tragedy that New Zealand has to acknowledge that when this practice or this trade goes ahead, we have little control. So there still remain quite risky practices of this trade. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EWhen that ship sank and the livestock was lost, it was, as I understand, the seventh time. And even after that there was another ship that sank during the COVID period, Al Badri, which did lose over 15,000 sheep, and although the crew managed to get off the ship and disembark, it is still a tragedy that we have to acknowledge. We have to review\u2014that is what the bill contains in the practices, namely the reputation of New Zealand in the trade industry. What we want to strengthen with this amendment bill are the practices and the reputation that we have on the world stage to do with livestock.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s really important that the only way that we can guarantee animal welfare is to ban the live export, the current practice; hence the amendment bill. So on a world stage in the farming sector\u2014and I\u2019ve been listening to the k\u014Drero from both sides all afternoon\u2014New Zealand has a proud and high regard for animal welfare standards, and we have to take that ethical standard, that ethical point. Because we don\u2019t want to put at risk just the lives of people on the ships but also the livestock we want to maintain, particularly because of our location on the globe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EIn 2019, the Government did direct the Ministry for Primary Industries to review this specific procedure, and so when that review takes place in this amendment bill\u2014the Animal Welfare Act 1999\u2014to ban live export of cattle, deer, sheep, and goats, it is the right thing to do. That practice, in the transition period, will carry on until 30 April 2023. This will protect livestock from New Zealand. Whilst there are the farmers who are very concerned at how they are going to do their business, there needs to be a primary concern around the livestock, and this Government supports that the trade is very risky, and this bill will ensure and aspire to the better systems with the regulatory system improvement, with the complete ban on the trade. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002299437aca71da41f892745ca1f5d05849\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Animal Welfare Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000461\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fab88b1b8cf545a4b49248785c9a08eb\u0022\u003EFisheries Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223b2a7182cc1744b8a369b24a96387499\u0022\u003EInstruction to Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022 data-id=\u00228c037f92569b41228915eee401d0d7a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c037f92569b41228915eee401d0d7a1\u0022\u003ETODD MULLER (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That it be an instruction to the committee of the whole House considering the Fisheries Amendment Bill that the committee may not consider Supplementary Order Paper 257.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EWe have been working on the Fisheries Amendment Bill for the last many months at the Primary Production Committee, and we have done that in good faith\u2014as the National Party, the ACT Party, and the Labour Party; and we have had a very good contribution from Eugenie Sage. As we have worked through that, we have worked on a Government bill that itself has been in many years of gestation, with many stakeholders\u2014be they recreational, custodial, or the sector itself. A core component of that bill was the fact that, for the first time, the industry would have a framework\u2014a new framework\u2014called the pre-set decision rules, which would enable some business surety and certainty and common sense for the sector and all the participants to be able to understand how a particular species will be managed within an agreed pre-set decision framework.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EIn good faith, we have debated it as a select committee. We have read 500 submissions, and we\u2019ve heard from 50 individual submitters, and each one of them reflected around their perspective on the pre-set decision rules. This is the Primary Production Committee, which is known for its ability to be bipartisan more than partisan and to work through issues when we are having points of difference. We have worked through that diligently and with an appropriate focus\u2014those of the sector, regardless of their perspectives\u2014be they from an iwi-custodial perspective; be they from a recreational perspective; be they from the NGOs, who do not want anything taken from our seas; or from the various voices of the commercial sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EWhat we have in this Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) that has been dropped on us this afternoon is every single reference to the pre-set decision rules framework\u2014which, in good faith, was discussed with the sector prior to the Government bill being introduced; which, in good faith, the select committee reflected on over weeks and weeks and weeks; and which is a core component of the negotiation and the balance that was sought to be struck with respect to fisheries management\u2014being pulled. In this SOP, every single reference to that pre-set decision framework\u2014for us to consider in a committee of the whole House stage\u2014has been pulled from this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EI think\u2014and hence my debatable motion this afternoon\u2014that it is a unique set of circumstances that will require the relatively infrequent use of this request by the Opposition. Frankly, it is so substantive to the Government bill that was introduced that for it to be introduced as an SOP in this context fundamentally changes the nature of the bill that we have been deliberating on and reflecting on as parliamentarians, in good faith and in a partisan way, for weeks and weeks. It simply is not acceptable, and that sits at the core of the National Party\u2019s\u2014and my\u2014objection to the fact that this SOP has been dropped, as it has, in this House, and has pulled all reference to something that, in good faith, the sector has been negotiating. It destroys the trust that, within a sector, is challenging to find at the best of times. From our perspective, it is completely unacceptable that we would consider it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u002238764c63dc7d4323a661945f7997f927\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002238764c63dc7d4323a661945f7997f927\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E ACT supports the National Party\u2019s motion to raise the alarm bells over everything to do with this piece of legislation being, basically, struck off the record. The pre-set decision rules, as framed, were tantamount to good outcome. As the member Mr Muller rightly alluded to, we had multiple submissions, hundreds of submissions, dozens and dozens of verbal submissions, and they all spoke to the importance of pre-set decision rules for not only iwi, for especially the coastal fisheries and the deep water fleet. Even the recreational sector had concurred that pre-set decision rules were tantamount to a good outcome. So the ACT Party absolutely supports the National Party in moving this motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u00221dc4730987fa48e2b76870599ad0d94a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221dc4730987fa48e2b76870599ad0d94a\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise and take a call on the instruction to the committee of the whole House, moved by Mr Muller. The reason we have taken this unusual path is because of the particularly unusual nature of what we see before us here, today, proposed by the Minister, the Hon David Parker, before this motion was put in place to debate Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 257 in the name of the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ENow, it\u2019s an SOP that significantly changes the construct of the bill that we would otherwise have been debating. On that basis, we are very much concerned that the intent, the goodwill, and the submitters\u2019 efforts have all been undermined by this very last-minute change. We\u2019ve seen, actually, through the process, firstly, the pre-set decision rules put in place, and then amendments made to take them out, further amendments to put aspects back in or change the wording, and, now, finally, looking to strike that out altogether. Ultimately, it is a significant chunk of the bill that had been agreed to by the Primary Production Committee and had been reported back to the House as the proposed legislation that, until that point, was part of the Minister\u2019s intent, and, indeed, it had its second reading only just last sitting day, which actually concluded this morning. At that point, even still, only just a few hours ago, it was the Minister\u2019s intent, apparently, that this would be part of the bill. And now, here we are, some short time later, seeing an SOP tabled at the very last minute looking to strike out a significant part of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ESo we were considering whether or not to move an instruction on this basis and thought that, actually, it warranted it because it is such a fundamental change to the legislation that had been put forward. Under Speaker\u2019s ruling 78/7, \u201CIt is competent for a member to move an instruction the subject matter of which is neither \u2018irrelevant nor foreign nor contradictory to the decision of the House taken on the introduction and second reading of the bill,\u2019\u201D. That\u2019s the thing here, we\u2019re not looking to change something significantly, because that would be outside the scope of what can be moved by an instruction. What we\u2019re looking to do, actually, is to maintain the integrity of the process we have taken so far with this piece of legislation\u2014through its first reading, through the select committee, and through its second reading, which finished just a couple of hours ago. Now, suddenly, we\u2019re seeing a massive shift in where this legislation is decided best to sit by the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EWe believe that is so fundamentally out of line with what was agreed through the previous stages, through the collegial nature of the select committee. It is at such odds with all the efforts of the submitters and is, quite frankly, disrespectful to the time and effort put in by the submitters going through the select committee process on the expectation that their voice would be considered and heard, and would maybe influence some of the outcome. We went through that; we saw some massaging of that\u2014as put forward in the report from the select committee. The Primary Production Committee reported back to the House with some changes to the proposed wording of those pre-set decision rules, such that it was presumably\u2014and presumably at the Minister\u2019s confidence as well\u2014a more appropriate fit for what the legislation should look like. Now, here we are with that totally scratched off the page and we\u2019re rewriting it again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ESo, on that basis, we don\u2019t believe that this SOP 257 in the name of the Minister should be considered by the committee because, as I say, it is so fundamentally different to that view. The intent of the bill was to improve the sustainability of our fisheries. It is my claim, and our moving of this instruction, that, actually, as put forward, it is deviating significantly from the previous stages. I think the key part here is that it wasn\u2019t just that someone has moved an amendment, an SOP, in the committee of the whole House stage\u2014of course, every member is entitled\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257a6357ca21a4185b1e187d3ca5841ed\u0022\u003EMark Cameron\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019ve rewritten the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220168d5febdd946c0af957a0b19c95fc9\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014to do that\u2014but, actually, it is a massive rewrite, Mr Cameron, absolutely, of the fundamental intent of the legislation, and, specifically, as reported back from a select committee that, whilst it is generally bipartisan, still, the Government influence is very clear; it has the majority. On that basis, you would expect that it has a very clear mandate, a very clear understanding, of following the Minister\u2019s intent, going through the process, looking to make some improvements from all of those submitters we heard from, and then coming to this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ESo that was the case: it was reported back; there were some amendments to it. We see that in the report back from the select committee: pages of them, numerous strike-outs or add-ins, as the clauses may be under the pre-set aspects\u2014you know, the 11AAAs, the 5s, the 6, the 7s, all those aspects that had some wording tweaked to, apparently, make it more fit for purpose. Yet here we are now, just a short time later, having ratified all of that in the second reading. So it wasn\u2019t like the select committee reported back something that the Minister thought was inappropriate, because it still passed its second reading with no concerns raised at all\u2014even this morning, a couple of hours ago\u2014about any aspects of these pre-set decision rules that may or may not be fit for purpose any longer. This is just blind-siding the committee and the industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EOn that basis, we have moved this instruction and we would ask for the support of members across the House to advise the committee\u2014when it does go into committee of the whole House\u2014to take this instruction and its consideration, and strike out any further consideration of SOP 257 in the name of the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d66ebc31c80a4e30aec250fc11988ae4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d66ebc31c80a4e30aec250fc11988ae4\u0022\u003EBARBARA KURIGER (National\u2014Taranaki - King Country):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise this afternoon in support of the instruction moved by my colleague Todd Muller for the primary producers of New Zealand. Now, we\u2019ve just completed the reading of a bill which I thought was one of the biggest shams of the Primary Production Committee process, and that was the animal welfare ban of live exports bill. And this is in no way criticising the chair or the members of that committee, who worked very collegially, but those submitters came in one after the other after the other, actually thinking that they were making submissions that may change the Government\u2019s mind on the ban.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ENow we stand up here, just having finished that, having gone through an amazing select committee process. It\u2019s all very confusing, as Dr Duncan Webb was talking before about \u201Cmy passion for cows\u201D. I\u2019ve been on a real 101 of fishing. This has been a real dilemma for the fishermen, because this is actually about imposing regimes and penalties for fish that they really don\u2019t want to catch in the first place and, unfortunately, it\u2019s caught as part of the process. And day after day after day, those fishermen came in, really concerned about where this was going to end up. This was, actually, one of the main topics of discussion throughout the bill, and this is an even worse process than the last one we went through on the animal welfare ban of live exports, because these submitters also came in and thought they were contributing to, adding to this bill, and then, as my colleagues have said, after the reading we come in here this afternoon and the Minister decides to put up a Supplementary Order Paper and actually change the face of what these good-faith submitters had put in front of them. So it\u2019s clear on this side of the House: support my colleague\u2019s instruction. This is bad practice and bad faith with the primary producers of New Zealand. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022715b7b15ef414444b5b3fe90075d2838\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022715b7b15ef414444b5b3fe90075d2838\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just members note that this is a relatively narrow debate, and that members are entitled to speak on it; however, if the debate does become repetitive with the same points, then as Chair I\u2019ll be looking for some closure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u002230d1c95b4040447f82ce458d505869b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002230d1c95b4040447f82ce458d505869b5\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m a bit puzzled. Where have National Party members been? It has always been able for Ministers to introduce Supplementary Order Papers (SOPs) to change a bill after it has been reported back from a select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ENational speakers seem to have ignored a lot of the submissions that went into the Primary Production Committee from recreational fishers; organisations like LegaSea, Forest \u0026amp; Bird, the Environmental Law Initiative, and the Environmental Defence Society; and others who had a major problem with the pre-set decision rules and expressed substantial concerns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019ve heard from National members is the assumption that we should only, in a select committee, rely on the submissions from the fishing industry. Certainly, as I said last night, the fishing industry did support pre-set decision rules, but a lot of other people had considerable apprehension and concern about them because of the way in which they reduce the ability of the public to have a say on what happens to a common\u2014I\u2019m not going to use the word \u201Cresource\u201D\u2014to fish, which we share in common. The pre-set decision rules\u2014certainly there is consultation on the scope of the rule, but if there is quite a wide range for that rule, the Minister makes a decision when he or she applies it, with no public consultation. It has been New Zealanders getting involved by challenging previous Ministers about the unsustainability of total allowable commercial catch (TACC), the need to reduce the TACC, and the need to provide for recreational fishers and the ecosystem that has led past Ministers to reduce the catch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo others have said, like LegaSea, that these pre-set decision rules\u2014and it was an attempt by the industry to get them smuggled into a bill which is primarily about landing and discards, improving reporting, and enabling the introduction of cameras. So this is within the scope of the Minister to do. I think it allows a lot more measured consideration. As one National member said last night, \u201CThe whole bill does create more complexity.\u201D And, taking these pre-set decision rules out, there\u2019s already quite significant changes in the bill which will take the industry a while to get used to. We can do this, and the Minister\u2019s decision, with this SOP 257, is responding to a lot of submissions which were expressing considerable apprehension about these rules. So we won\u2019t be supporting National\u2019s motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002227de354d99e84caba2a2866c8958e70f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227de354d99e84caba2a2866c8958e70f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E The Labour Party will be opposing this motion. I would note that the claim that this is the major part of the bill is exaggerated. It is a 48-page bill. These provisions are on pages 3 to 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc8a5b0decc642cc9f26bc96b5691eab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc8a5b0decc642cc9f26bc96b5691eab\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Well, I\u2019m glad the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries spoke and I\u2019m glad the Green Party spoke, because it puts the context around what\u2019s actually happened here today. The Green Party made it very clear that they don\u2019t want this ability to have those kinds of decisions within the bill. They just don\u2019t see it as there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe Labour Party have confirmed that, in the Minister not explaining why Supplementary Order Paper 257 is being dropped today. As my colleague Tim van de Molen said, we just debated this a mere number of hours ago in this House. There was not one mention from the Labour members that they felt that this was an issue in the Primary Production Committee. There\u2019s not one point where the Minister stood up today, when he had an opportunity just now, to explain why he did this. All he did was try and confuse and conflate people and say, \u201COh, it\u2019s a 48-page bill.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EWell, I\u2019ll show you what your 48-page bill looks like now. [Holds up Supplementary Order Paper 257] You\u2019ve taken out clause after clause after clause. It\u2019s typical Labour Party propaganda. They try and say, \u201CWe\u2019re only just changing a small part of the bill.\u201D\u2014he\u2019s ripping a big part of the bill out. And it\u2019s not only the part of the bill that he\u2019s ripping out; he\u2019s ripping out the consultation between the industry and Government, and that is the ability for the industry to go forward and Government to go forward. We all want to see the same thing happen in the fishing industry: we all want to see the best result for New Zealand fishing and New Zealand fishers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe Minister deliberately did not say anything when he spoke. He had the opportunity to explain his decision. He has been sitting there quietly, smugly looking. He knows damn well that he doesn\u2019t want to explain it. He just wants to hide it behind the process. He doesn\u2019t want it in there. He\u2019s shaking his head. Well, maybe he needs to stand up and tell us why he\u2019s taking it out\u2014and not some excuse that \u201CIt\u2019s a 48-page bill and it\u2019s not the heart of the bill we\u2019re taking out.\u201D Well, of course there\u2019s more in the bill; everyone knows that. But I actually want an explanation. You just don\u2019t take things out, with one line saying, \u201CThis is deleted, this is deleted, this is deleted.\u201D, and stand up and try and excuse yourself. Explain it. Explain it to the industry. Have you got a good reason? Tell us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcb831a6ebfd4b46ad82628fcbb1cfd3\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s the committee stage. It\u2019s what we debate at the committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb15cee4b160497f9b735c619c702c59\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s what we\u2019re going to debate at the committee stage! Well, this is actually in the Minister\u2019s\u2014so he\u2019s now going to debate it. He\u2019s telling us he\u2019s going to debate it. Well, he had the opportunity then to actually explain what he wants to debate. He won\u2019t debate it. I bet you they\u2019ve all been told not to say a word on this. All the Labour\u2014the whip\u2019s trying to stand up and shut it down. That\u2019s what he\u2019s doing. They\u2019re not going to stand up and debate it and explain it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225cdc2e0029854161b15e624787c2c907\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re debating the motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1a1deb4b9774246a39ce996783d05c7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. And were you going to explain why you\u2019re against it? [Interruption] Yeah, your reason against it is because\u2014he says the bill is big enough as it is and he doesn\u2019t have to explain it. He is more important than the industry! He himself does not have to bow to this Parliament and explain his decision. He just has to oppose it. The arrogance of that Minister in doing that, and the arrogance of the Labour Party. They\u2019ve got no intention of debating this. He\u2019s trying to shut it down. The whip can\u2019t get up quick enough. And there\u2019s the next call: it will be a Labour Party member trying to shut it down, won\u2019t it? None of them are going to explain it. None of them are going to debate it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EThe Labour Party needs to be honest with the fishing industry and say why they\u2019ve done this. They need to get out there and the Minister needs to explain it, and not waffle about the size of the bill and try and hide behind that\u2014actually say what he thinks about the issue. And as our oceans and fisheries spokesperson, Todd Muller, has said, there\u2019s good faith in that select committee. The members of that committee have discussed this time and time again. There\u2019s good faith by the sector. This is something that we don\u2019t do every day in the fishing industry, because it is very complex and difficult. And for a Minister to come in here and be so arrogant as to say, \u201CI don\u2019t have to explain it. It\u2019s just a big bill. I\u2019ve taken out 10 lines. Who cares?\u201D just shows how out of touch he is with the public and how out of touch the Labour Party is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ENow the whip can stand up and do his closure motion. Go for it, mate. Knock your socks off. But it just shows that you\u2019ve got no intention of explaining what you\u2019re doing and the Labour Party are just using this process. They could have done this months ago. The Minister wanted to do this months ago, it was in his mind\u2014it didn\u2019t come up today. He\u2019s been\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe1ef37c3cc54fccaba84922c270e1fc\u0022\u003EMark Cameron\u003C/span\u003E: Lobbied.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4bb177c3f3d43c291196bd891b87375\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I don\u2019t think he\u2019s been lobbied. I think he\u2019s actually known this for a while; he just didn\u2019t want to have it in front of the debate. He just wanted to put it in at the very last minute, in the committee stage. Don\u2019t shake your head like that. We know it\u2019s the truth. You didn\u2019t want to actually debate it. You didn\u2019t want to actually have it in the public arena. You only wanted to put it in at the last minute so that you had to explain it for the very least amount of time, and you won\u2019t even explain it to this House. It\u2019s a shambles of a Minister, and it just shows the deceitful nature of the Labour Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220cfdb088cf13434d90f8938fb8f096d1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That it be an instruction to the committee of the whole House considering the Fisheries Amendment Bill that the committee may not consider Supplementary Order Paper 257.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002202ddbd1424e04c6da3cbd13acd9f13f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202ddbd1424e04c6da3cbd13acd9f13f6\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee on the Fisheries Amendment Bill, the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Hazardous Substances Assessments) Amendment Bill, the Plant Variety Rights Bill, and the Digital Identity Services Trust Framework Bill, which will commence when the sitting resumes at 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bce972cf351c4d84a07158360bfa814b\u0022\u003EHazardous Substances and New Organisms (Hazardous Substances Assessments) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221aa2a60a1db442f297f247573c0e6d44\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225df29858810944cca77ec09d4df93a53\u0022\u003EPart 1  Main Amendments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022290200c9204844bab24b577bf356507c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022290200c9204844bab24b577bf356507c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we are in committee on the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Hazardous Substances Assessments) Amendment Bill. We come now to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e15618672bd646b2b4cb81808b266ecd\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: Fisheries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261e3fea457c546928fd930d09ea6c843\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: A member is trying to tell me something. Would you like to take a point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u002291bc5f8a3a6344d4bc9dad2efa42f93a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291bc5f8a3a6344d4bc9dad2efa42f93a\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chair. I believe we are due to consider the Fisheries Amendment Bill in the first instance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00220b981c735ec3475683b5176a055312f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b981c735ec3475683b5176a055312f0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s interesting you should say that. Thank you. We\u2019ve been having that discussion, so let\u2019s just clarify. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3463964f66c4885ba395316377abfc2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3463964f66c4885ba395316377abfc2\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I\u2019ll take the first call on the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Hazardous Substances Assessments) Amendment Bill. This bill updates the processes under the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act\u2014the HSNO Act, as it\u2019s called\u2014to allow the Environmental Protection Authority (EPA) to use information that comes from reputable overseas regulators, rather than requiring all of that evidence to be produced in a bespoke basis for the New Zealand regulator.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a very sensible bill, and it will have better environmental outcomes in New Zealand, because the problem that we have with our current system is that because the process requires reconsideration based on a full volume of evidence, quite a few of the owners of the rights to chemicals don\u2019t bring them to New Zealand. As a consequence, we\u2019re still using chemicals in New Zealand that could be replaced with better chemicals that are more effective or have less environmental harm, but they don\u2019t get registered here. One of the impediments to that registration is the cost of the process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe other effect of this is that it constrains the ability of the EPA to conduct reassessments of chemicals that are already in the system based on information that is from overseas. So what this legislation does, in this globalised world, is allow the EPA to take notice of the information that comes from, for example, a European regulator who may have looked at the same chemical in great detail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8e2643f9db44465b92a7f3ae851ddc3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8e2643f9db44465b92a7f3ae851ddc3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00224e94280673144ab9a4c7ed478555b274\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e94280673144ab9a4c7ed478555b274\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Look, this is a piece of, frankly, quite pragmatic legislation, and His Majesty\u2019s loyal Opposition is supporting it. But there are a couple of questions I have for the Minister in the chair, and notwithstanding the practical aspects of this piece of legislation, I\u2019m interested to know just how the Minister expects the Environmental Protection Authority (EPA) to distinguish between what is a credible alternative jurisdiction and which aspects of information and data they will take into account and which they might reject. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThe whole purpose of this piece of legislation is to, frankly, stop us having to reinvent the wheel in a uniquely Kiwi way with every hazardous substance, particularly if there is another jurisdiction of a kindred like to our own with a robust process and a credible, reliable analysis regime, where we can use that data and that information. So my question really relates to how the Minister thinks that the EPA will actually come to a conclusion about which jurisdictional interests will be acceptable and which won\u2019t. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022e01d1e1a5a48497fad9fc2e2bd548953\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e01d1e1a5a48497fad9fc2e2bd548953\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for that question. This matter is addressed at new section 76E, in clause 11 of the bill, which is entitled \u201CAuthority may recognise overseas bodies as international regulators\u201D, and then it sets out at subsections (1) to (4) the process that the authority has to go through before it can recognise one or more overseas bodies as international regulators for the purposes of the relevant sections of the Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe authority, before it does by notice in the Gazette give that notice of recognition, has to publicly notify its intention to issue the notice, give interested persons a reasonable time to make submissions on the proposal, and consult representative groups within the hazardous substances industry, Government departments, WorkSafe, and Crown entities whom the authority considers appropriate in each case. So it has to go through that process before it can issue its Gazette notice, and then there\u2019s a set of prohibitions that are listed at new section 76E(3) where the authority must not recognise an overseas body unless the authority has considered whether the body operates in a manner comparable to the authority in regulating hazardous substances, the legislative regime in that country is comparable to ours, and the information from that body is readily accessible by the authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe amendment that was added at the Environment Committee was the addition of subsection (4), which relates to amendments that can be made by the authority to the notice. Some of those are minor and technical, and others have to go through a process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022b08dfd99805a4b26bbabe19727dd43dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b08dfd99805a4b26bbabe19727dd43dc\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you to the Minister for that helpful intervention. I want to just tease it out a little bit more in terms of the definition and element of what is reasonable. Subsection (4) says that applications with \u201Csignificant cultural, economic, environmental, ethical, health, or international effects; or \u2026 significant effects in an area in which the Authority lacks sufficient knowledge or expertise.\u201D This is subsection (5): \u201CThe Authority must\u2014(a) do everything reasonably practicable on its part to consult all persons who, in its opinion, are likely to be directly affected by the reassessment; and (b) give those persons a reasonable opportunity to make submissions and comments to the Authority on the reassessment;\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s this test of reasonableness, because I can imagine that there will be instances where, for instance, the Minister will know, as I do, that we have some very active and participatory environmental NGOs who may have a completely different view as to what is reasonable in these situations, and that might differ significantly from the Environmental Protection Authority\u2019s view as to reasonableness. Does the Minister expect that this test will be judicially tested, or is he happy that previous case law about what is reasonable and not reasonable will apply? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00229b82f5c1037a4f9b89dc6ef227252117\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b82f5c1037a4f9b89dc6ef227252117\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Could I just inquire of the member what clause of the bill he is referring to? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00220b7e2e6c9e824f07aa5f075fed361b7e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b7e2e6c9e824f07aa5f075fed361b7e\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s in new section 53AA in clause 7, halfway down page 5 of the bill as reported back from the select committee, particularly subsections (4), (3), and (5). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00221f568ac30a6740188e1b425482e390f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f568ac30a6740188e1b425482e390f1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, the Hon Mr Simpson. That clause earlier, new section 53AA in clause 7, sets out that in addition to public consultation, departments of the Crown that are likely to have an interest in the application should be consulted. Where it\u2019s an application for the approval of a new organism there is also an obligation to consult with the Department of Conservation, and if the application is for approval of a hazardous substance, WorkSafe must be involved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EOne of the more difficult issues that the Environmental Protection Authority (EPA) has dealt with in recent years has been the approval of methyl bromide for its continued use in New Zealand. New Zealand, we now know, is one of the largest users of methyl bromide in the world, and if used unsafely it can cause serious health effects for the people close to it. I know that in that case a lot of the work on both the safe application of it and alternatives to that chemical, the role of WorkSafe has probably been in addition to the EPA\u2019s work themselves. I would have thought that WorkSafe has been the lead agency to provide good input to the EPA as to what is a proper outcome in respect of public notification. In that case, there were concerns about its use around ports, because it\u2019s used as a fumigant before the export of logs to kill the bugs that might be in the bark, in the main. And some of those activities are on the port within close proximity to cities. Mr Muller will be aware of this because this is the case in point in Tauranga. I\u2019m aware that in that case, obviously, those that were consulted were those people who were affected, or potentially affected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI would expect that in the future, in a similarly difficult application, the EPA decision as to reasonableness would be a decision that they took with care, and that they would be wanting to make sure that people who had a legitimate interest in what are contentious issues had an opportunity to make submissions to them. If they did that in a way that excluded a significant portion of the population who might be adversely affected by the use of that chemical, then I suppose it is possible that those people could take that issue to the court and allege that there was a breach of the statutory duty in terms of their assessment of what is reasonable. In my time as Minister of this organisation, that\u2019s never happened, because I think the EPA does get it right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u002220c0412978bb436c835e4d4cf92eb0ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220c0412978bb436c835e4d4cf92eb0ca\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It is a pleasure to take part in the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Hazardous Substances Assessments) Amendment Bill\u2014it\u2019s quite a mouthful, actually. I thank the Minister David Parker for his full and frank responses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003EMy question is around methyl bromide, and it\u2019s actually used in the Port of Picton as well\u2014Shakespeare Bay, to be precise. You mentioned, Minister, how important a part WorkSafe plays in chemicals such as methyl bromide. A lot of logs that are exported are actually treated with methyl bromide on the journey away\u2014the logs are loaded and they\u2019re actually treated with methyl bromide at sea. Is that restricted if it occurs within New Zealand waters? How does that work? Is methyl bromide allowed to be carried but not used, and then used at sea? If so, where at sea is it that the laws of the land end, as far as that\u2019s concerned, and WorkSafe\u2019s jurisdiction ends? Is that the 12-mile limit? Is it the exclusive economic zone, or where does that happen?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00224db9583a8f024a1fba9183787cef8ddc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224db9583a8f024a1fba9183787cef8ddc\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m aware that methyl bromide is used both in the hold and portside, under tarpaulins. There are different rules that apply to each which reflect the consequences of each methodology. Obviously, if a hold has been pumped full of methyl bromide in concentrations that can kill all the bugs, there would be a danger to people who went into the hold thereafter without it being cleared. I will check with officials, but I\u2019d presume that the jurisdiction of WorkSafe would end at the 12-mile limit, but I will see if officials are aware of that. It\u2019s not directly on point to this bill, so if I can\u2019t get an answer from officials, I apologise and I\u2019m happy to get to the member later.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIndeed, that\u2019s been confirmed by officials: 12 nautical miles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u00222a72534bcddd494ab5f2c061b6eb7dfb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a72534bcddd494ab5f2c061b6eb7dfb\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, Minister, for that answer. While I accept it\u2019s not particularly part of this, it does relate to the\u2014we have these substances that are not desirable to be used but we do use them and we need to know how they\u2019re controlled. My question was, really, around how they\u2019re handled in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ESo if, for example, we ban methyl bromide and the Environmental Protection Agency say that that\u2019s no longer to be used under this Act, then those logs that are going to be exported, if they\u2019re going to be treated on the sea\u2014not in New Zealand; outside the 12-mile limit\u2014are they able to be carried on board so that those exports can continue but they\u2019re just merely used and treated outside of our 12-mile limit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb03079dbb0b4485907ffa86a7102169\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb03079dbb0b4485907ffa86a7102169\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I expect it is legal for vessels to carry them if they carry them safely. We wouldn\u2019t assert the ability to control what happens on the high seas. But I\u2019m not sure whether that practice does occur.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI do know that methyl bromide has been recently reassessed. It took a number of years. There was an assessment some years ago that proposed phasing it down to very, very low concentrations of residue, which proved impossible to achieve. There had been a hope that in the meantime there would be substitute chemicals or processes developed. Some substitute processes have been developed for some markets. Some markets are happy for the logs to be stripped of their bark and then just, effectively, steam treated, I think\u2014or it might even just be the removal of the bark. But some markets, I think, including India, refuse to recognise that as sufficient control of the risk that a pest could be carried with the log, and so they still require fumigation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EAs a consequence of the reassessment, there are strict controls covering both in-hold and on-the-wharf applications of methyl bromide. It was quite a long process because at one stage there were some wind assessments that were done that indicated that on a certain wind there could be problems caused in the Tauranga area, which the Environmental Protection Agency had to work through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u002286f5b868a5e247dba324a00dd4ca51a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286f5b868a5e247dba324a00dd4ca51a4\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Under the principal Act, it\u2019s clear that hazardous substances that are approved by the Environmental Protection Authority (EPA) are approved in perpetuity. However, there can be a reassessment option and programme initiated, and at select committee there was a proposal\u2014which has been, I think, picked up in clause 4\u2014to create a new section 20C relating to reassessment of work plans. Now, at select committee, the committee understood that the intent of the bill was for reassessment work plans only to include reassessments that were initiated by the chief executive and that they would not be able to be initiated on an applicant basis for reassessments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo that then seems to me\u2014on the face of it, Minister\u2014to provide the chief executive with very significant power to manage and intercede on reassessments at the personal initiative of the chief executive. And again, just referring to a number of very keen and enthusiastic environmental NGOs who may want to have reassessments done, it seems that this legislation will simply not provide for any mechanism for an initiated reassessment option to occur, and that the only trigger for reassessment lies with the chief executive. I\u2019m keen to know from the Minister why he thinks that power should be limited to the chief executive. Does he consider that there could ever be situations where an applicant-initiated reassessment request could be considered or triggered that was contrary to the views and opinions of the chief executive of the day? So I\u2019d be interested in the Minister\u2019s views on that, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0b1873136474f6b9ebf2c0a32cf0021\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0b1873136474f6b9ebf2c0a32cf0021\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. The chief executive of the authority\u2014and I should go back a step. The Environmental Protection Authority (EPA) takes these decisions independently of the Government. They\u2019re not ministerial decisions, and neither should they be, because it\u2019s a regulator that\u2019s trying to get the best safety outcome for New Zealand as well as within the bounds of safety; good economic outcomes where chemicals are needed in New Zealand\u2019s economy. The Act provides that there are criteria set out at section 62(a) to (d) of the Act; I haven\u2019t got those in front of me, but I can get them for the member if the member is interested.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EBut in addition to that, the work plan must list the substances and give an indicative time frame for when the work will start. But then the authority comes into play rather than the chief executive, which is provided for in new section 20C(4), in clause 4 of the bill. It says: \u201CThe Authority must ensure that the work plan (a) gives the highest priority to \u2026 (i) hazardous substances that are prohibited for use under section 64: (ii) hazardous substances that are subject to restriction under section 64A;\u201D. So in the end the authority has control of the list and they\u2019ve got duties to prioritise the things that are most important to prioritise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00222568bbdd69c1428789fb1b5b0a2f5336\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222568bbdd69c1428789fb1b5b0a2f5336\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, thank you for bringing this bill, the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Hazardous Substances Assessments) Amendment Bill, to the House. ACT New Zealand supports this bill. Anything that reduces the regulatory burden on New Zealand consumers, taxpayers, and businesses is welcomed by ACT. So thank you, Minister, and thank you to the officials for putting in all that effort.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EI just want to ask you about new section 20C\u2014in clause 4\u2014\u201CReassessments work plan\u201D. It\u2019s quite likely that there are a range of hazardous substances for which an evaluation by technical experts would point to the need to either reduce, limit, or stop their use, as better products are available. That\u2019s what we understand the reassessments work plan will be designed to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EI just want to ask the Minister\u2014and he might need to consult with officials\u2014has there been an appropriation in a Budget to reform or improve the reassessments process? Will the existing resources, staff, and IT systems that the Environmental Protection Agency currently uses be able to be used? And in terms of the reassessments work plan, it requires the plan to be put together within 12 months, I understand, of the legislation passing. Given it\u2019s taken quite a long time for the legislation to move through the House, is it likely that we\u2019ll know the time frame or schedule for reassessment to proceed? Is this something likely to happen in 2023, or is it more likely to be 2024 before the reassessments process starts? And, if so, are there any interim measures that you think should need to be taken?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022db2733768d7b4719a5228f87373c3440\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db2733768d7b4719a5228f87373c3440\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E In respect of the Budget point, no, there hasn\u2019t been additional budget given to the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). The long-term funding of the EPA is actually being reviewed this year, which is not to say that it will be substantially increased, but it could be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the most important feature of this bill, the very fact of the passage of this bill enables the EPA to do more with the budget that it has, because they can now adopt information from overseas regulators that have been approved through the process that I covered in response to an earlier question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the date by which the work plan will be set, I\u2019ll ask officials that now, but I don\u2019t know it to be earlier than the 12 months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022376cfbcde0334f84b2bc201b01cc6c91\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022376cfbcde0334f84b2bc201b01cc6c91\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Going back to the reassessments, the Minister will be aware that many of the hazardous substances that would come up for reassessment are seasonal in nature. So a crop where a family group of chemicals is used is totally reliant on the season. If a chemical comes up for reassessment during that period and they decide to halt the use of it during that reassessment, what processes does that go through so that we have assurance when , for example, kiwifruit or the wine industry or wheat harvest, or whatever it is is reaching a critical stage that requires a chemical to deal with a certain disease threat and then suddenly it\u2019s halted and we can\u2019t use it, and when there\u2019s no time whatsoever to get alternative chemistry to deal with that particular challenge? How do we know that that has been taken into account before that halt is being called? So I guess what I\u2019m saying is: how high is the bar for that halt of use?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00220505dc19405e4688a4114b6d640c0aaa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220505dc19405e4688a4114b6d640c0aaa\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Those are issues that are determined by the Environmental Protection Authority (EPA) on the facts that are before them. I suppose it would depend a bit on the practicality of alternatives to the danger, relatively, that is posed by the incumbent, if you like, and their assessment of risk. I know that in the case of methyl bromide, again, the prior reassessment, because it\u2019s now been reassessed twice, gave a very long lead-in period. But those, in the end, are for the discretion of the EPA to take in accordance with the advice that they get from the expert panels that provide them technical advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the earlier question from Simon Court, the department\u2019s confident that they will do it within 12 months. They don\u2019t have a specific date earlier than 12 months but they confirm that it won\u2019t be this year, it will be next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022956dd38e267340dcbcdb21219bd0aab5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022956dd38e267340dcbcdb21219bd0aab5\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Well just further to that, Minister, is there no reasonableness test or anything other than just the judgment of the person concerned, rather than something prescribed to meet a certain standard of reasonableness?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00226a2689d21e3d496d800c7c3e0a72740e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a2689d21e3d496d800c7c3e0a72740e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246fb843d2e114188a0b0bbd5758fdaef\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Hon David Parker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022796d2d291b3c434fb8a7790f8cc8dc83\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Madam Chair, I should\u2019ve called. I don\u2019t understand that they\u2019re to be stated in that way. There are various factors that have to be taken into account by the EPA. Their primary focus is, obviously, safety but they also have regard to the societal benefit of the chemicals that are used. They balance all of those issues in a way that is wise. So I haven\u2019t heard complaints in my time as Minister as to how they have abused that process. I\u2019ve never had a complaint in that regard, and I\u2019m not expecting any.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b99e8259736840ad8fd68902162fbf3c\u0022\u003EPart 2  Consequential and other amendments, and the Schedule\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00221722928e630a414eb19971d6651a3dcb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221722928e630a414eb19971d6651a3dcb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 2. This is the debate on clauses 12 to 30 and the Schedule: consequential and other amendments. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00223f3a071e3a8244e9a39b7744c7efd0be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f3a071e3a8244e9a39b7744c7efd0be\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to come to new section 62, \u201CGrounds for reassessment of a substance or organism\u201D in clause 21. While we were told that classification of new organisms was out of scope of the bill, could the Minister please clarify if the grounds for reassessment of a substance or organism will be liberalised as a result of replaced section 62? In particular, what grounds will the authority use to reassess conditionally released new organisms and any qualifying organisms released with controls?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThe reason I ask that, Minister, is because \u201CNew Zealand Inc.\u201D has made a number of commitments to reduce our carbon emissions, our emissions of greenhouse gases, and yet we don\u2019t have the benefit of biotechnology that would allow New Zealand to meet its commitments more quickly, at less cost, and with less disruption. So I\u2019m interested, Minister: will this replaced section 62 provide a more liberal pathway to reassess biotechnology for release? Minister, we\u2019d just appreciate some clarification on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022da3516b45a3942c9a06221b6f78e6813\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da3516b45a3942c9a06221b6f78e6813\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E No, it won\u2019t. It\u2019s not dealing with what rules should be applied to approvals for the release of new organisms, including genetically modified organisms. I think this relates to where the organism has been previously assessed\u2014can there be a reassessment. So it\u2019s not liberalising the release, for example, of a genetically modified organism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThat said, we do have work under way to look at the liberalisation of laboratory research and the medical uses of genetically modified organisms, because there is a general view held by the Chief Science Advisor and the Royal Society that some of those rules are too restrictive and that the rest of the world has moved on to a certain extent in respect of those. We\u2019re not going so far as to liberalise the release into the environment of a genetically modified organism that can replicate, for example, or approving the use of genetically modified seeds or animals. That is a debate for another day. The release of those organisms is not prohibited under New Zealand, but those people that wanted to release GMOs of that nature would have to go through the existing provisions in the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00225141036e31c2479aa40348d9ac0ab085\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225141036e31c2479aa40348d9ac0ab085\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. So, Minister, just to clarify, this legislation actually provides grounds to reassess new organisms, assuming that they\u2019ve been used in some way\u2014most likely in containment or in a laboratory\u2014for some time. I\u2019m assuming the reassessment would be because new hazards and risks have been discovered. So could you just please clarify that this legislation provides to put things that are in the lab or being assessed into the incinerator\u2014destroy them, remove them, reassess them so that they can\u2019t go any further\u2014but it doesn\u2019t allow for any pathway for, say, genetically modified grasses that do self-replicate, because they\u2019re a grass species, to be used which could actually reduce carbon emissions. Could you just clarify that, please, Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022296b611603f3459f89a4d5e14d006739\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022296b611603f3459f89a4d5e14d006739\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I can. This amendment doesn\u2019t change the existing law in that regard. People that wanted to produce a GM ryegrass, for example, and release it into the environment in New Zealand can apply under the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act for an approval to release that organism\u2014no one has. The member\u2019s quite correct to say that it is hard. It\u2019s not impossible; no one\u2019s tried. It would be controversial in New Zealand because there are people in society who think that would be the wrong thing to do, for reasons of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220699d27626e944b4ac88169c0e23f881\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Debate for another day, perhaps, yeah.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266589b09f37647cf9f5930471d995bc0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s debatable, and I\u2019m not expressing a viewpoint in favour of or against that. But there are also other people who would say that irrespective of whether it is wise environmentally or from an environmental point of view, there would be important economic consequences for the country to consider on both sides of that equation. I know that, for example, our most successful apple growers in New Zealand, in the Hawke\u2019s Bay, very large and successful exporters, think that they would suffer a diminution in the price that they obtain for their apples if we were to do that. They might be wrong, but they do argue that, and all of those issues would have to be taken into account by the Environmental Protection Authority if an application was to be made under the existing statutory framework.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u00229fe9b4b96f5a4928ba07597a7f4058c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229fe9b4b96f5a4928ba07597a7f4058c0\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m quite surprised by the Minister\u2019s comments here, given that I think everyone in this room has had two jabs of a genetically modified organism into their arms. I think it\u2019s extraordinary that he would think it was so reluctant for genetically modified organisms to be used in New Zealand. I think the world has changed and I think that the Environmental Protection Authority and the Minister might want to reconsider their position.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022995dcd275f8c4b7380a920ef28374615\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! We\u2019re having a wide-ish ranging debate, but I think coming closer to what is actually in the bill, I think we\u2019re about at that point. Do you want to respond?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022018737d1b7ea4108bc4143f6aa69d18a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022018737d1b7ea4108bc4143f6aa69d18a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I do feel a need to respond to that, because there is actually a significant difference. I wouldn\u2019t want people to think that by being vaccinated they are changing their genetic makeup because they\u2019re not. There is a difference between that and a genetically modified grass that replicates and creates a heritable trait, which a vaccine does not. And I wouldn\u2019t want to leave listeners or observers of this with the impression that being vaccinated means that you are being genetically modified, because you\u2019re not, and that is a very, very important issue to be careful with at the moment in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf48671b72c9480c99a79d187dc35cac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf48671b72c9480c99a79d187dc35cac\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to focus on section 62, in clause 21\u2014this is \u201CGrounds for reassessment of substance or organism\u201D\u2014and, in particular, section 62(2), which sets out a range of matters that the authority may decide are grounds for reassessment of an organism or substance after taking some factors into account. Now, there are several subjective definitions in paragraphs, (a), (c), and (d). Words like\u2014in (a), \u201Cthat significant new information relating to the effects\u201D\u2014what is determined as \u201Csignificant\u201D? In (c), it says \u201Cthat another substance with similar or improved beneficial effects\u201D. Who decides what is \u201Csimilar\u201D, \u201Cimproved\u201D, and/or \u201Cbeneficial\u201D\u2014or, indeed, in paragraph (c), \u201Creduced adverse effects\u201D? In (d), again, there is reference to \u201Csignificant change of use, or a significant change in the quantity manufactured, imported, or developed, has become available;\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m interested in the Minister\u2019s view as to the test that the Environmental Protection Authority and then, ultimately, the chief executive, would have to satisfy themselves with in terms of meeting those relatively subjective definitions as to \u201Csignificant\u201D, \u201Csimilar\u201D, \u201Cimproved\u201D, \u201Cbeneficial\u201D, \u201Creduced\u201D, \u201Cadverse\u201D, and those sorts of words that are used in the legislation. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002244f85111882b45b381f25100513639ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244f85111882b45b381f25100513639ab\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E The Environmental Protection Authority (EPA) has technical panels that report to it, and those panels would provide them with technical advice as to whether there was significant new information relating to the effects of the organism. That new information could be that it is more harmful than was previously thought, but it has to be significant before they would trigger the grounds to reassess at the request of somebody. So this is where there are requests for reassessment, and if there has been no significant change, then you can understand that the EPA would want to put its resource somewhere else that was an area of significant change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of clause 21, which inserts new section 62(2)(c), the wording there is \u201Cthat another substance with similar or improved beneficial effects and reduced adverse effects has become available;\u201D So that\u2019s intended to cover the situation where there may have been no decent alternative to the chemical which had been approved for use, albeit on restricted grounds notwithstanding adverse effects. The authority might, on the request of somebody, think, \u201CWell, we\u2019ve got this other chemical that does the job just as well with far fewer environmental effects. We should look again at the original approval for the more dangerous chemical.\u201D In respect to all those issues, it will be a matter of discretion for the authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002240a818eb1fc148a8bb75b4add9722464\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240a818eb1fc148a8bb75b4add9722464\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: We move on to the Schedule. The question is that the Schedule stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ESchedule agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022900d7de7caf24eac9b7b193a09207e39\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac17c7b924b644ceab65fb3aa8897a13\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac17c7b924b644ceab65fb3aa8897a13\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to our final debate, on clauses 1 to 3. This is the title, commencement, and principal Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00227905c9007b3446b6b041b40f3b6ecd67\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227905c9007b3446b6b041b40f3b6ecd67\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Well, just a relatively minor point, but given the keenness of the current Government that supports plain language legislation, I\u2019m interested to know whether the Minister and his officials could have come up with something that was a little bit less complicated than the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Hazardous Substances Assessments) Amendment Bill. Could that have been something that officials could have turned their mind to in terms of just saying, \u201CThis is something that is going to be a little less cumbersome\u201D, if only for those of us that have to speak to the title in the House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab73d441f131404bb678217d52b957f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab73d441f131404bb678217d52b957f0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I actually think officials did well to choose that name, because it actually addressed the issue that Simon Court asked, which is whether the bill actually addresses new organisms or hazardous substances, and it actually addresses the assessments of hazardous substances. That\u2019s clear from the title and therefore I\u2019m not proposing to change it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1bd030363754d8ba531b655f4e72cb2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1bd030363754d8ba531b655f4e72cb2\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E In the spirit of what the Minister\u2019s just suggested, that this is in plain English, what were some of the initial alternatives that officials put forward?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022b5b8dd22eddc4c66ad0bccabd98f8839\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b5b8dd22eddc4c66ad0bccabd98f8839\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you, and thank you, Minister. On the title and your reference, Minister, to the fact that this bill exclusively addresses hazardous substances, have you considered or received any advice as to whether in a future review of the operation of this legislation, with respect to new organisms, there could be a separate piece of legislation that addresses our future needs, in terms of biotechnology to solve medical problems, to solve environmental problems, and potentially to solve some of the problems around food production\u2014whether a separate piece of legislation titled maybe \u201CBeneficial Biotechnology\u201D or something would be considered in the future?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022471d766fe7bf4ae28e51348653956775\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022471d766fe7bf4ae28e51348653956775\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m not sure it\u2019s relevant to the title debate but, as I said, we are considering some changes to make more practical the rules around laboratory research for not just medical but non-medical purposes as well. We don\u2019t have a current plan to broadly change the rules relating to the release of genetically modified organisms into the environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022bfda57468343493ab8a46ed2ef6aa0aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bfda57468343493ab8a46ed2ef6aa0aa\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that clause 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1731e7c64ca4af8bce3110bb7b77789\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1731e7c64ca4af8bce3110bb7b77789\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that clause 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00229fcd47b1a2ff4bbf908ce25dc7a45e62\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229fcd47b1a2ff4bbf908ce25dc7a45e62\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that clause 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eb4ad7f3b8354192adecd985b7d4eb04\u0022\u003EFisheries Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222c03e3c9cc2043f49314117c234a1dd0\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002288f6b2f90c4e4839a44f14d9e0af8c08\u0022\u003EPart 1  Substantive provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd536c46a1ad47e1949d964203ba7165\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd536c46a1ad47e1949d964203ba7165\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to the Fisheries Amendment Bill. We come first to Part 1, this is the debate on clauses 4 to 26, \u201CSubstantive provisions\u201D. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002216de3ff0be0a489db2bb0f024e439e29\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216de3ff0be0a489db2bb0f024e439e29\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E The background\u2014no; I should start with what the main points of this bill are. This legislation provides a framework for the introduction of new technologies that weren\u2019t available when the quota management system was developed, namely the use of cameras on boats to monitor fishing practice when you don\u2019t have a physical fisheries observer on board. It\u2019s obviously less costly to have automated technologies doing that surveillance, or checking, if you like, than it is to have real people as observers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EBut I want to just spend a little bit of time on why this has come about. Back in 2016, there was a furore about some reports that had been held by the fisheries division of the Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI) for a number of years and had never been released. Those reports were titled Operation Achilles and Operation Hippocamp. Those reports had video footage and/or other evidence of some concerning practices as sea, where fishers were discarding significant quantities of fish. Some of that is called high-grading, where the fishers know that the best return they can get on a fish sold is of a particular size, and a fish that might be smaller or a fish that might be bigger is less valuable. Given that they wanted to maximise their returns and minimise their quota costs, there was high-grading going on where quantities of fish were being discarded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThere were also complicated rules for different species of fish, which were complex for fishers to comply with, with different rules relating to whether fish could be legally returned to sea applying to some species, and different rules to others, and different minimum sizes for different fish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EPrior to the time of the release of these two reports which were first released by third parties who had somehow obtained copies of them, there was also a study that had been conducted\u2014led by the University of British Columbia in cooperation with the University of Auckland and academics from elsewhere\u2014which had reconstructed the theoretical population of our fisheries, based on fish returns. That report concluded that the return of fish was irreconcilable with the distribution of a fish population, in terms of size. So there was already a controversy amongst some of the academics in this area that suggested that there was substantial under-reporting of actual fish caught in New Zealand, much of which was being discarded through high-grading or illegal forms of throwing fish back, generally dead, and illegal forms of discard, the quantity of which were not well known.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe Government of the day, which was the National Government, were surprised, as we in Opposition were at the time, as to the scale of what was being suggested was occurring. The scale of it is still disputed. The fishing industry say that the study by the University of Auckland and others was exaggerated and that the level of discards was not as high as that asserts. There is a contrary viewpoint where those people say that the science backs their view of what they said was occurring. Notwithstanding that controversy as to the amount, there was a general agreement that something untoward was happening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EAs a consequence of controversies\u2014and there was a lot of media coverage about it at the time\u2014the Hon Nathan Guy, as the then Minister of Fisheries, asked for an inquiry by the former Solicitor-General Mike Heron\u2014now KC; then QC. He conducted an inquiry into these events. He found that there had been some mistakes made within the fisheries division of MPI and that they were wrong to have gathered this information but not used it for enforcement reasons. Such was the heat around the issue that the then National Government said, \u201CLook, we\u2019ve got to clean this up. It\u2019s not good for our international reputation. \u2018Brand New Zealand\u2019 underpins the value that we get for the goods that we sell across the primary sector.\u201D, and they proposed the adoption of cameras on boats so that we could have some real scrutiny as to what has been happening at sea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThat, essentially, is the reason behind the core of this bill, which is to enable cameras on boats and the companion rule that says that, with some exceptions, you shouldn\u2019t be able to discard fish; you should try to avoid catching the fish that are not valuable, and if you start catching lots of little fish, you should move on to where you\u2019re catching the bigger fish, or you should use a fishing technique that prevents the catching of those little fish. So the rules have been changed to require all fish that are caught to be counted against quota, with some limited exceptions which will be specified in regulation. All fish that are caught are to be landed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn response to both the better scrutiny that we have through those two measures, we can then move to a more moderate penalties regime\u2014the current penalties regime being designed to heavily discourage illegal practice because it was so hard to find, and when it was found on those rare occasions, the law came down very heavily.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EAs a consequence of these better techniques that we will now have, we can introduce an infringement regime and also a demerit-points scheme which is much less Draconian and reflects can be used by fisheries officers using their prosecutorial discretion to use an appropriate remedy, rather than having to take people to court for prosecutions that could have disproportionate response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI know the issue of within-year adjustments to take will come up, and I\u2019m not dodging that issue. I\u2019m sure it will be the focus of the debate, and I\u2019m happy to engage in that debate as to why the pre-set decision rule is not proceeding at this stage and why we\u2019ll put that out again for another round of consultation, if we do proceed with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EBut those are the main reasons for this amendment bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u0022df2202e74fbb4e88a5e6454a2c3d7494\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df2202e74fbb4e88a5e6454a2c3d7494\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, Minister Parker, for the opportunity to discuss this piece of legislation. Clauses 13 and 14, amending section 72 and inserting new section 72A, on the dumping of prohibited fish and landings and discard rules, as asserted in the legislation speak to 50 fewer or more fish, sir?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022022862b0f72b4fc088b9fc87d35c115e\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f55f9c0b6b9b40c7a07566ba1b49cda3\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m trying to reconcile that. I\u2019ve been fishing as a recreational fisherman for 25 years, and worked alongside those that are commercial fishermen with set nets. They\u2019re telling me this as proposed is nonsensical. Now, just to clarify why I\u2019ve made that statement: mid-water fish. If you want to take the example of yellow-eye mullet and/or kahawai, they both sit in the same pressure zones in the ocean. Quite often, yellow-eye mullet are fished for bait fish by commercial fisherman. Inadvertently, they also catch a lot of kahawai. How can you differentiate between species in mid-water fishing, as an example? This is just one example, and we\u2019ve got several. When the fisheries industry has gone from a six-inch mesh to a five\u2014sorry, a four to a five to a six, changed from a diamond to a square. They have spent decades fine-tuning lead lines, weight lines, cork lines, so that these nets are falling into a certain pressure zone in the water, setting at certain tide heights, to alleviate this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003ENow, your officials have said\u2014and I have a lot of respect for the officials; they\u2019ve worked very, very hard and are very collegial. But they couldn\u2019t answer this. When they said that they were putting the squeeze on the industry to innovate, they couldn\u2019t tell us what innovation looked like. Now, that\u2019s one example, Minister, that I\u2019ve given you, where, thus far, there is no technology outside of recording what these people are catching. And this is the question I have for you: how do you reconcile that with a coastal fisherman who is catching multiple coastal reef fish, which is very, very different from oceanic blue water fleets, with limited technology at their disposal? How do you reconcile that, when they\u2019re going to be met with a prosecutorial reality that treats 50 anchovies\u2014gracious me, sprats\u2014like 50 kingfish?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002287db1060c97547a587d887757478cbd2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287db1060c97547a587d887757478cbd2\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E Well, if they are sprats, they probably won\u2019t be caught in a net. In respect of the underlying ethos of this legislation, we want people to land what they catch, because generally what is thrown back is dead. Where fishing techniques enable the bycatch to be released alive, there will be regulations promulgated to allow the release of that bycatch in those situations. And there are new mid-water haul techniques that are bringing up fish in a live state, in a vessel of water, which is expected to have a better chance of the survival of the fish that are released, and so you can see that exceptions are likely to be made for that. But where the fish is dead, the intention is that they be landed, and that\u2019s for the reasons that I\u2019ve previously outlined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENow, there is, as the member Mark Cameron rightly observes, an unavoidable, small level of bycatch that we are not so concerned about. Where you set that level is always going to be somewhat arbitrary, and the advice from officials was to set that at 50 fish. Obviously, the member is correct that if it was krill or some other tiny species like that, relative to a tuna, it is less significant. We did have discussion about whether we should have different limits for different fish species, but we thought that that would be too confusing for people and hard for them to comply with the law, because they wouldn\u2019t necessarily be able to remember the different rules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of where people do inadvertently breach something in a very minor way, of course, the authorities always have a discretion as to whether they choose to enforce the law through the prosecutorial discretion that the Fisheries New Zealand prosecutorial arm has, just as the Police or other agencies have a discretion as to whether they strictly enforce the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022 data-id=\u002215e70d924a094a0bab77e3d14a5cc826\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215e70d924a094a0bab77e3d14a5cc826\u0022\u003ETODD MULLER (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate the Minister\u2019s forthright start. Clearly we have made the point, pre-dinner break, with some force, and now\u2019s the time for perhaps more of a forensic conversation with the Minister around elements of his proposed Supplementary Order Papers (SOPs). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EThe Minister would be very aware, because he kept a very close eye on proceedings of the Primary Production Committee, of the scale of the perspectives that were put in front of the committee. The effort that the committee members, with officials, went to to try and get the balance right\u2014noting, as I did in this morning\u2019s contribution, that at times the sector presented itself as the most fragmented in New Zealand primary industries, frankly; every participant holding a view on the primacy of their view and the inadequacy of others. It made for challenging work as a select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EBut one of the areas that was a consistent conversation and focus and, I would argue, had very strong committee support, was the pre-set decision rules framework. And it comes with significant surprise to us that the scale of the changes\u2014as was discussed earlier, the Minister ultimately has a right to change whatever he or she wants at an SOP stage, but to turn up at such a late stage, Minister, and remove the entire section with respect to pre-set decision rules seems an extraordinary response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EMinister, your response, pre-dinner, saying, \u201CWell, look, it\u2019s only a small portion in terms of pages to the larger bill\u201D, I don\u2019t think actually reflects in good faith the contribution of the select committee or indeed the various perspectives that have been brought to this issue by stakeholders through the select committee. As he notes in his thorough contributions to date, the genesis of the concern around not only the landing and discards, that we\u2019ll talk to shortly, but also the important part of creating some flexibility and some certainty for sector participants with the pre-set decision rules. So my first question is, can he please outline to the committee\u2014his own side as much as ours, I suspect\u2014why we now have SOP 257 that amends the bill by deleting all the provisions relating to pre-set decision rules?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022270915d08ff54bd190d876834457920e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022270915d08ff54bd190d876834457920e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for that question. The Fisheries Act runs to 670 pages. This amendment bill runs to, I think it was 48\u2014what did I say before dinner? Yeah, 48 pages. These clauses, 4 to 12\u20148 clauses that, if the Supplementary Order Paper passes, we\u2019re removing from the amendment bill\u2014are about five or six pages long. The reason why I\u2019ve reached the view that it\u2019s unwise to proceed with this at this stage is not political. It\u2019s because I\u2019m trying to do the right thing, including rebuild trust in the fisheries management system. I think I\u2019ve already outlined to the committee the parlous state of trust in the fisheries management system that led to the changes that we\u2019ve got, to cameras on boats and discard rules. I think it\u2019s fair to say that as a consequence of that\u2014and some other problems that we\u2019ve had with some fish stocks that are very important to New Zealand populations including rock lobster, snapper populations, and tarakihi\u2014there is a level of distrust in society about the decisions that have been made historically in respect of some fisheries issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI thought, and I like to think, that through these increased transparency processes and the openness that we try to apply to our approaching of sustainability rounds, that we were making progress in rebuilding the trust that has been undermined in recent years. Because I accept what the member says, that there is a considerable antagonism between recreational and commercial interests, in particular, and there\u2019s also complexity around other interests, including customary interests, that are also important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI had regular discussions with my select committee members during the passage of this bill, and I was supportive of the amendments that were proposed by the select committee, which tried to deal with the concerns that were expressed by many submitters that the processes that were proposed for the pre-set decision rules to allow a Minister without further public consultation to change an amount of an allowable catch within a fishing season. I hoped that with the amendments that were made by the select committee that the issue would settle down and that the concern that had been expressed by submitters that was recorded by the Hon Eugenie Sage in the Green Party minority view would be assuaged by the changes that were made. But it\u2019s pretty apparent that since that time it hasn\u2019t settled down, and that there is a deep suspicion amongst some people that allowing the Minister, on the advice of the Ministry, to change an allowance for commercial fishing within a season is, from their point of view, a backward step. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENow, I would make the observation that there are already two sustainability rounds a year at which there can be a change to the total allowable commercial catch, and that the finer-grained changes that currently are proposed in the version of the bill that\u2019s in the Chamber at the moment, but that we are proposing to remove, really are at the margins, and I haven\u2019t actually been given an example of where we would have recently used the power. So when I drilled into it with officials after the report back of select committee, I wasn\u2019t satisfied that this was a necessary intervention in a really practical way, and I could see that it was concerning to people who still have a distrust of other sectors, and therefore I thought it was an unwise thing to proceed with. From their point of view, people who are distrustful of the system like the fact that there is public input in decisions that change harvest levels. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022 data-id=\u0022a76ecf1682cd4e4abcead67d986b5214\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a76ecf1682cd4e4abcead67d986b5214\u0022\u003ETODD MULLER (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. A couple of comments in response and questions to the Minister on that. I can\u2019t see how he can possibly see pulling the pre-set decision rules framework in the 11th hour as part of a strategy to rebuild trust.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003ESecondly, this bill, as you would imagine, was part of the conversations that I participated in last Thursday at the 30th anniversary of the iwi fisheries, and the elements of having a pre-set decision framework were strongly supported. So I am interested to understand what has happened in a week that has meant that the Minister, in his own words, says that he now has limited confidence that this is an intervention that will work. And Minister, in particular, I contrast your comments now with your Cabinet paper that you took to Cabinet to support this bill, paragraph 31, saying that pre-set decision rules \u201Cwill support more responsive decision-making, improve the speed of decisions, provide greater certainty and result in improvements to setting catch levels and other sustainability measures over time.\u201D And this is in paragraph 34 of your Cabinet paper, Minister: \u201CAmending the Fisheries Act to include pre-set decision rules in addition to these existing mechanisms will provide a tool to strengthen our response to changes in the status of our fisheries and better achieve our sustainability outcomes.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EMinister, this has been something that you have been very aware of, that you have helped facilitate the architecture of for your bill, had comfort to introduce it, it was part of a select committee report-back, it was part of our speech this morning, when we were yesterday, in terms of the second reading, and here you are, saying, \u201CWell, actually, no, I don\u2019t support it, don\u2019t see the need for the intervention, and I\u2019m pulling it in its entirety from the bill.\u201D How can you align what you\u2019ve just said with your advice to your Cabinet colleagues?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002214e6b2f7df4c4a90a7ae66c2cab6c987\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002214e6b2f7df4c4a90a7ae66c2cab6c987\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E I actually didn\u2019t say in my earlier contributions that it couldn\u2019t work, I said that it\u2019s not a significant measure in terms of the overall management of the fisheries resource relative to the other parts of the Act, noting that we already have two sustainability rounds a year. What I said was that rather than\u2014my hope was that we would be carrying people, that this was a non-controversial thing to do that would improve outcomes. We haven\u2019t satisfied people, and I thought the Hon Eugenie Sage minority report captured their concern in a fair, summarised way, which is there are a significant number of people\u2014perhaps on the basis of the experience in yesteryear, which might not be fair to carry that forward now, but that\u2019s how people feel; it\u2019s what they believe. They don\u2019t think that we should be conferring more powers on the Minister or the department to advise the Minister to have a within-season adjustment without public input on the actual change that is being proposed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab374e20bddd4ddabe17d640044818ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab374e20bddd4ddabe17d640044818ab\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and can I thank the Minister for his, as always, very thoughtful contribution. I just want to put it on record, because I have been a bit concerned by some of the comments made by National members, that the Primary Production Committee did not unanimously support pre-set decision rules. There was not unanimity in the submissions around pre-set decision rules. There was a lot of concern that came through in a number of submissions about how the regime would work. And there were comments made in the submission of the Deep Sea Conservation Coalition, for example, about avoiding committing to a management regime with insufficient detail and consultation to judge its effectiveness through these pre-set decision rules. There was a real concern about the fact that it would really embed a focus on single stock management, when a lot of the desire in the environmental sector and amongst recreational fishers is to move to ecosystem based management, but pre-set decision rules wouldn\u2019t do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThere was also a lot of concern that the way they would operate had not been well consulted on with stakeholders. And, as the Minister has noted, the Prime Minister\u2019s Chief Science Advisor, in her report which Todd Muller talked about as well this morning, this lack of trust across the sector is increased if you don\u2019t have transparency in decision making. So if you have a decision-making tool where the public cannot have a say, where it\u2019s done behind closed doors, then there will be increased distrust. And that distrust of the Ministry for Primary Industries and Fisheries New Zealand is partly a result of things like Operation Hippocamp and Achilles and it\u2019s partly because there is a strong view that the ministry has been captured by the fishing industry. I acknowledge all of the mahi of officials, but that perception exists and, if you move to a less transparent decision-making mode, you\u2019re only going to embed that because things happen that are not in the light of day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe whole move to put cameras in place is taking a longer time than was initially anticipated when it was first proposed. There is a lot in this bill that can take up the time of officials and the sector to improve fisheries management without doing the pre-set decision rules, and there\u2019s always the opportunity for the Minister or a future Minister to go out, do more consultation, and consider a mechanism in future. But the question I wanted to ask the Minister was that concerns also came through in submissions around the harvest strategy standard 2008, which was overdue for review in 2013. As a result of setting the pre-set decision rules aside in the bill, is there any intention to actually review that and update it and bring it more in line with an ecosystem-based management approach?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022931138f10b1c4d579131609da5323a29\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022931138f10b1c4d579131609da5323a29\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. The member is right that the harvest strategy does need a refresh. Apart from anything else, litigation in respect of the terekee or of the terakahi decision\u2014tarakihi decision\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216a7d47ed3344aca9750032da71d8daf\u0022\u003EMark Cameron\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CTerekee\u201D!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b9ffb8f45264cc592f7900f708b8aff\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CTerekee\u201D\u2014ha, ha! Sorry about my pronunciation; I always get that wrong. There was a discovery that there\u2019s actually an error in it and, even after all these years, it\u2019s only just been noticed through the litigation that Forest \u0026amp; Bird took last year in respect of the decision that was overturned. That decision overturning the decision is itself under appeal. So we await the decision of a higher court in that regard. But yes, the harvest strategy will be reviewed. It\u2019s not a matter of prime urgency, but it is the intention of the ministry to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ECan I say some things in defence of the ministry? Because I don\u2019t want to leave the impression that I\u2019m distrustful of the ministry. My experiences of the ministry have been very good and I find them open. One of the things that I have asked of the ministry is that we actually own the past in respect of Hippocamp and Achilles, and that we respond to it, as we are now, in order to build trust between the ministry and different aspects of the fishing sectors, including the fishing industry but also the recreational and customary sectors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI find the ministry responsive to that and I will soon be turning a page myself to say: look, we\u2019ve dealt with those issues, we now have transparency via cameras on boats, and we\u2019ve learnt the lessons of the past; we can move on and build levels of trust. But my judgment was that if we persisted with the pre-set decision rules, we would actually be taking ourselves backwards in that regard. And that\u2019s why, for what I think is a relatively tangential part of the fisheries management system, I\u2019m proposing, through that Supplementary Order Paper, that we pull it from the bill. That doesn\u2019t mean to say, as the member Eugenie Sage has already indicated, that it can\u2019t come back and we can\u2019t work this issue through and try and engender a bit more support for it, maybe have a few more safeguards or some oversights in it, but at the moment we\u2019re not proposing to push it through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u00223f392de73bef475a9ca4422b2e7fde8a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f392de73bef475a9ca4422b2e7fde8a\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, can I please bring your attention back to new section 72A(2)(c), in clause 14: \u201Crequire a stock or species to be returned to or abandoned in the sea or other waters from which it was taken if the Minister is satisfied that the return or abandonment is for a biological, a fisheries management, or an ecosystem purpose\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EWell, if I may\u2014going back to my previous remarks about unwanted bycatch with a very low monetised value\u2014just very quickly, we heard from submitters. They were talking about having potentially no licensed fish receivers and that landing unwanted bycatch of such a low monetised value was often as low as 30c in the kilogram, and yet returns, in terms of equalising their income, were $1 per kilo. So they\u2019re going, effectively, backwards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003ECan you see that it is almost contradictory language when it\u2019s talking to, essentially, the health of the ecosystem, and yet we\u2019ve got bait fish that are potentially deck wash considered caught and, by virtue, have to be landed and\u2014because there\u2019s no monetised value, there\u2019s no market to be bought back\u2014potentially end up in a landfill. Would the Minister consider giving some consideration to my Supplementary Order Paper 256, which speaks to having bait fish, or very common fish, removed or excluded in this list, given that they have such a low monetised value and they\u2019re caught in numerous quantities quite often as unwanted bycatch. And you see this all the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EDo you want to speak to that ecological sustainability aspect in that piece please?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00221d93a5a6b69c497da04b10abd6e9b0bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d93a5a6b69c497da04b10abd6e9b0bc\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E I have only been overseas once in the last few years, as a consequence of COVID, but that one occasion was as fisheries Minister. I went to a conference in Portugal that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade recommended that we attend. At the end of it, I popped up to Iceland because Iceland has a reputation that is lauded by some as being so far ahead of New Zealand in respect of fisheries management. I\u2019m pleased I went there, because I discovered that in some areas they do a bit better than us but in other areas they\u2019re pretty much identical to us. In the areas where they use technology a bit more efficiently than us, they have some advantages of fewer fish species to deal with, which therefore enables greater automation than is possible when you have as many species of fish as we catch. I was also pleased to learn that their technology providers are the same technology providers that our major fishing industry participants use to automate their processes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EOne of the other things I discovered, though, was that they have a very similar fisheries management system. They run a quota management system, and they have the same challenges in respect of discards. In their case, they didn\u2019t discover it through Operation Hippocamp or Achilles some years ago; they\u2019ve just discovered it in the last year through the use of drones. I saw the drone footage there, and they\u2019ve got the same issue of illegal high grading and discards in the Icelandic system that we\u2019re trying to deal with in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThat is the greater ill here: that we have quite substantial quantities, as evidenced by Hippocamp and Achilles, having been discarded to the point that the prior Government and the current Government thought there was a need to address the issue. How do you address it? Well, the advice from officials, which the Government has accepted, is you actually require all fish that are caught to be landed. When you start having too many exceptions to that rule, you undermine the viability of what it is that you\u2019re trying to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENow, in respect of fish that the member refers to, these rules don\u2019t come in overnight, and we are expecting that there will be an industry response to maximise the value of that which is returned. Even if it\u2019s going into pet food or fishmeal for use in agriculture, that is not a wasted use. We\u2019re expecting that the private sector response to these rules will be to innovate. They will innovate in a way that minimises the bycatch, and they will develop markets for that which is unavoidable bycatch for which they will need to develop markets. We have provided for regulations to allow\u2014if that wasn\u2019t viable and there was an area where it wasn\u2019t viable to move the bycatch to some of those uses\u2014some of that to go to a landfill. We hope that is not an outcome. If that did prove to be a significant outcome, then I\u2019m sure that, in the future, we or another future Government would revisit the rule.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u0022f482dd9ad8d64eb8b21e9deb050f2c4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f482dd9ad8d64eb8b21e9deb050f2c4f\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Look, I\u2019m interested with some of the conversation that we\u2019ve been having so far on the committee stage here of the Fisheries Amendment Bill. I think there are a couple of points that I just want to start on, actually. I just want to touch on the Green member Eugenie Sage\u2019s contribution, because, for me, that just shows a total disregard for the reality of what actually happened and an intent to disguise what actually played out. It says quite clearly that amendments were unanimously recommended. So for her to try to suggest otherwise is totally misrepresenting the situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ENow, in terms of the Minister\u2019s comment that he is trying to do the right thing by putting in Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 257 to remove those pre-set decision rules, it\u2019s just flabbergasting, quite frankly. Here we are, only a few hours after the second reading of this bill. The Minister is a senior member of this House. He would be quite aware that the second reading is the time to foreshadow any potential SOPs that may come forward at the committee of the whole House stage, and there was absolutely no mention whatsoever of his decision, or his intent, to introduce that SOP at the second reading, which occurred only 24 hours ago, with his first speech of it\u2014the final speech of it being only late this morning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ESo, on that basis, how can we now be in a position, less than 24 hours later, where we have such a massive U-turn from the Minister on his position with regard to those pre-set decision rules? Or is it that he actually knew 24 hours ago and simply failed to inform the House of his intention to introduce an SOP? It would be disappointing to think that was the case. I\u2019m not suggesting he would do that, of course. But I\u2019m also really interested to hear from Labour members of the Primary Production Committee, because they also sat through all of those submissions, they heard the different views, they helped to amend this bill and to report it back unanimously to the House, and I am sure they are equally as surprised to note now that we are striking out a massive chunk of this bill around those pre-set decision rules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EActually, I thought that was an area that was quite good. There was a good opportunity there to demonstrate an ability to be responsive to changing needs within the quota management system, because we have seen over time that we have particularly large fluctuations at times of fish stock assessments, because they may not be done on a particularly frequent basis. And so, once we roll around from one to the next for a particular fish stock, you can see a significant change in the total allowable catch recommended, and subsequently implemented, off the back of those fish stock assessments. And, of course, a drastic change\u2014well over 100 percent in some instances; increase or decrease\u2014can have, of course, a massive impact on the commercial operators trying to go about conducting their business, if they\u2019re suddenly finding that the fish stock they\u2019re allowed to catch has been slashed by half, or by 80 percent in some cases. That\u2019s simply not great practice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ESo the ability to have some flexibility through the pre-set decision rules would have enabled, in my mind, anyway, the Minister to make some assessments in between those formal fish stock assessments. And, yes, I accept that those decision points happen twice a year, but not for the same fish stock each time. I think that\u2019s the key aspect here: we can be talking years between fish stock assessments for the same stock. So, on that basis, having the flexibility, through a range of data feedback, anecdotal information from commercial fishers, for example, suggesting that actually a fish stock is more depleted or more abundant than might have been the case when the total allowable catch was last reviewed would be an appropriate time for the Minister to exercise his right and say, \u201CWell, hey, is there some flexibility? Do we need to drop this limit back down to ensure that the biomass remains sustainable, or not?\u201D That\u2019s where I see there was great flexibility in that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m really interested to understand exactly why\u2014when this change suddenly came about. It\u2019s a piece of legislation that\u2019s been in the pipeline for a long time now, lots of consultation, so why are we just finding ourselves right now at the point where this is suddenly changing? I think I\u2019ll leave it at that and get into my other points after the Minister responds to that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba011f269ca24b198f2223b3a6d27a11\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba011f269ca24b198f2223b3a6d27a11\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I just want to put on record for anyone who\u2019s listening that the reason the select committee amendments were unanimous is because the Green Party does not have a permanent member of the Primary Production Committee, but the Standing Orders enable any member of Parliament to attend a committee, and the Green Party saw this bill as really important\u2014it was the first major change to fisheries legislation in some years\u2014so we did attend and we listened to all the submissions. And there was debate and discussion as a result of those submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWe were talking about bycatch a little while ago. In clause 6, which the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 257 would remove\u2014but, at the moment, it is in the bill; clause 6 amends section 11 of the principal Act around sustainability measures\u2014there is a major issue of bycatch, not just of species that are not targeted but of fur seals in the hoki fishery; of thousands of seabirds\u2014I think it was about 14,000 a year or so ago; turtles. The bill at the moment doesn\u2019t make any major changes to the information principles, the sustainability measures, or the environmental principles in the main Act to tackle the bycatch issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EIt is of major concern because the National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research did a report recently about turtles, and 273 turtles\u2014primarily leatherback turtles\u2014have been caught by the fishing industry between 2007-08 and 2021. These are vulnerable to critically endangered species. They migrate from the South-west Pacific, which is quite tropical, down to northern New Zealand waters and spend anything like 12 months there. In places like Hawaii, there is much more focus, through their fisheries management system, in preventing bycatch. There\u2019s an upper limit on the number of turtles that can be caught and then the fishery closes. There are areas where fishing isn\u2019t allowed in order to protect breeding populations, which we don\u2019t have here. But there are measures there that are further ahead than here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESimilarly with seabirds, a lot of the longline fisheries have bait on the hook, and then the birds dive to get the bait, get caught, get drowned. One of the most heartbreaking things for me was being fortunate enough go to the Antipodes and see there albatross chicks where one parent had been killed\u2014probably in longline fisheries\u2014and, because the chicks need food from both parents to thrive and survive, they were likely to die. So we do not, in New Zealand, insist on all of the mitigation measures that can be used in order to reduce bycatch of seabirds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister is in relation to an SOP in my name which would seek to change the environmental principles and add to section 11 the sustainability principles to require, when decisions are made under the Act, that there is a need to specify effective measures which fishers must implement to reduce the bycatch of protected species. We have a national plan of action for seabirds, which has got a goal of moving towards zero bycatch, but, unless this is flagged in the principal Act, it doesn\u2019t get the attention that it deserves, in the Green Party view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo, to the Minister, in terms of these changes around bycatch, does he recognise that bycatch is an issue, and are there any plans by him, the Government, and Fisheries New Zealand to actually strengthen the legislation around bycatch? And will he support the Supplementary Order Paper?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c85f994dc20c48d8b855c4c65e66e68c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c85f994dc20c48d8b855c4c65e66e68c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E In respect of the Supplementary Order Paper, no. In respect of bycatch, the member is correct, and I think all members of this House are concerned with the bycatch of both mammals and seabirds. You know, the prognosis for the Antipodean albatross, for example, is dire. At the moment, I\u2019m advised\u2014in fact, I was recently advised that we have a particular problem with the loss of female birds. They are lighter and they range further in their search for food, and because they rove further, they\u2019re actually roving into the areas of international waters where most of them are caught as bycatch, not by the New Zealand fishing fleets but by overseas fishing fleets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s not to absolve the New Zealand fisheries management system or New Zealand fishers from the need to do better in respect of \u201Cinteractions\u201D, as they\u2019re euphemistically called, or, you know, the catching of birds as bycatch in the New Zealand waters or our exclusive economic zone. But we\u2019ve got to tackle both of these problems, both at home and in international waters, and we do that through our international outreach, both in the Pacific, where a lot of these fleets are based, but also with our diplomacy to their home countries, as far afield as Spain. There\u2019s great civil society support for this, including some really good advocacy that\u2019s being run by civil society groups. One of the things that they\u2019re advocating for is a change to the rules to require more of the mitigation techniques to be compulsory rather than two out of three, and I\u2019m expecting a report on those issues before the end of the year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022 data-id=\u00226c534138d7d2403bb6310ff605d9dba9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c534138d7d2403bb6310ff605d9dba9\u0022\u003ETODD MULLER (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d like to ask the Minister, Hon David Parker, for feedback on a few Supplementary Order Papers (SOPs), including SOP 253, which is in my name. It seeks to replace, in clause 22A(2), new subsection (1A) in section 257, \u201Cthe court must\u201D with \u201Cthe court may\u201D, and, essentially, is changing the language to provide for some judicial discretion. The Minister would note that, on page 8 of our committee report, we focused on the policy that sits behind us, saying the penalty\u2019s maximums. Then, as he has noted earlier, you know, aggravating and mitigating factors may well be, or should be, taken into account when determining the applicable penalty for any offence. But then that discretion, which is envisaged in that policy intent, is removed by the bill as it was reported back, saying that \u201Cthe court must \u2026 make an order\u2014\u201D, so we\u2019re suggesting that that would be a flexibility which would make sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EIn terms of SOP 259, the Minister will be aware that the existing provision section 72(5)(c) provides for the returns to the sea under an observer authorisation. Essentially, what we are doing is, you know\u2014obviously we back the Minister\u2019s continuation of cameras on boats. That is a sensible addition. But we\u2019re suggesting, under this SOP, to include a parallel provision which would similarly allow for returns to the sea under camera monitoring\u2014and the footage of any such returns can effectively be reviewed by the Ministry for Primary Industries\u2014as a parallel to the observer monitoring which is in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EThen, finally, SOP 258 essentially provides a generic defence for the offence of returning fish if they are damaged as a result of unavoidable circumstances. The bill, as the Minister would know, contains a provision in new section 72A(2)(b)(ii), to allow for an instrument to be approved to allow this. Essentially, what this SOP is doing is providing an administratively simple solution that, I would argue, would no longer necessitate the need for a particular instrument because it would have its own clear subsection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003ESo hopefully that is of some value. I have reflected on these SOPs, not sought to make dramatic political statements but actually see opportunities for improvement on the bill that we have in front of us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022a173d2d8dfd2493e9b2c494467dcf561\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a173d2d8dfd2493e9b2c494467dcf561\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I thank the member for his contribution in respect of his Supplementary Order Papers (SOPs). If I could address Supplementary Order Paper 253, which, as the member has carefully outlined, would replace the words \u201Cthe court must\u201D to \u201Cthe court may\u201D order forfeiture. That is the effect of the legislation, I am advised by officials\u2014I\u2019ve just checked with them, anyway. How it works is that there is the general presumption of confiscation, or forfeiture, I should say. But, then, section 257(3), which this forms part of that section, says, \u201CNotwithstanding subsection (1),\u201D\u2014which was the subsection that the member seeks to amend\u2014\u201Cthe court may, in the circumstances of any particular case, and upon application being made to it \u2026 direct that any particular license, approval, permission, or fishing permit, shall not be forfeit, or that the person shall not be prohibited\u201D, etc.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo the discretion already sits there in section 257, subsection (3), and the scheme of the Act wouldn\u2019t make sense if we were to amend that. I understand the member\u2019s intention and I respect it. I agree that we don\u2019t want to have no ability for a court to say that forfeiture would be unfair and disproportionate in that situation, but that\u2019s what subsection 257(3) already provides. So I won\u2019t be voting for the SOP.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0e6ed1afa744a9ca83bd48d06512533\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0e6ed1afa744a9ca83bd48d06512533\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, clause 20\u2014section 252 amended (Penalties)\u2014(3A) states, \u201CEvery person convicted, whether in the same or separate proceedings, of 2 or more offences against section 72\u201D\u2014I\u2019m paraphrasing, of course\u2014\u201Creturning, abandoning, or retaining fish or other animals [or] aquatic life in any 24-hour period\u201D. If I may, just to try and help me contextualise that if you\u2019re a blue water fleet, perhaps in the Southern Ocean, and you throw a 2-tonne net overboard and you get a tonne and a half or two tonne of fish off it, and by virtue\u2014I mean, you might smile, sir, but you can soak a net for a couple of hours and you will get tonnes of fish, and you\u2019re talking about 50. And the potential for a prosecutorial reality, if not a fine exceeding $250,000 in respect to a second offence. Well, gracious me, you can chuck a net twice over in 24 hours and you\u2019ve had two offences in that 24-hour period, and this speaks to, in a period of three years, as liable for that potential fine. Now, how do you reconcile that, sir? I mean, this is the practical world, and we all support the cameras, absolutely\u2014it\u2019s a good idea\u2014as does the industry. And the very point of these nets, by design, is to allow for as many fish that are not target species to escape, and yet when you\u2019ve got a tonne and a half of fish in a big net, you get a lot of deck wash. When the fish spill out, they\u2019re considered caught; if they go over the side\u2014and I\u2019m sure there\u2019ll be more than 50\u2014all of a sudden we\u2019ve got this $250,000 potential reality in the space of but a few days, or even potentially 24 hours. How do you reconcile that? Because, again, this is, as proposed, quite impractical.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00225272faec2ae049c180fb687f9066783d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225272faec2ae049c180fb687f9066783d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E At the moment, there is the same existing maximum penalty. The unfortunate thing for fishers at the moment is there\u2019s no alternative, much less draconian, penalty available. So, in addition to the prosecutorial discretion to do nothing\u2014which is always open to a prosecutorial authority if they don\u2019t think it\u2019s necessary or proportionate, nowadays\u2014once this legislation passes, they can also issue infringement notices. So this is carrying forward the same maximum penalty as currently applies, but that would never be imposed by a court in respect of a minor issue. And if it was a truly minor issue, it would be very unlikely that there would be prosecutorial action anyway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u002206b857e7eda34b478b7530c63a2ce749\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206b857e7eda34b478b7530c63a2ce749\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d be very keen to hear from the Minister with regards to my earlier question as well, but\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6636f664ded43beb614cc128c8e875f\u0022\u003ETodd Muller\u003C/span\u003E: And some of the Labour MPs would be good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac2ce5a95a354e5eae15626ec21deb36\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes\u2014also a good point, Mr Muller. I still haven\u2019t had a response from the other side of the Chamber with regards to my invitation to any member of the Primary Production Committee from the Labour caucus to take a call and share their views on the significant change that was landed on us just hours ago. But I don\u2019t see much interest over there at all\u2014heads are quickly bowing down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ESo I did just want to pick up on that last respect raised by Mr Cameron as well, because there is an area that I have some concern about, around the graduated scale of the fines. The intent of that is good and I support that in terms of being able to have more flexibility, but it\u2019s a point that we\u2019d raised in the select committee as well around wanting to get more confidence. I\u2019m interested in the Minister\u2019s view on this around the application of that, particularly in instances where we see a fine of $10,000 being issued for someone that catches up to 50 fish above the limit, but it\u2019s significantly higher\u2014$100,000\u2014for anyone catching 51 fish, for example, with the contrast there being that there\u2019s no consideration whatsoever for the value. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ESo the example I could give is that you could catch 50 southern bluefin tuna. They\u2019d have a significant value, and, over and above the limit, you\u2019d only be liable for a $10,000 fine, which is much less than the value of those fish. But on the flip side, if you caught 51 pilchards, for example, then you\u2019d be liable for a $100,000 fine, which would be for a much lower-value fish species. It seems to me that that is a totally distorted assessment of the value, and, ultimately, the intent, I think, of the bill, which is to make sure that penalties are appropriate to the level of the offence. In that instance, it wouldn\u2019t be, and I\u2019m interested to know, obviously, how that will play out down the track, and what confidence the Minister has that we\u2019ll be able to get that right and signal that to commercial fishers as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EThe other aspect that I had touched on in my second reading speech was with regards to the discard aspect and how that may impact on research vessels\u2014specifically, the RV Tangaroa, which is the NIWA research vessel, for example. I understand that they have permits, but I\u2019m not entirely confident that that allows for the level of discards that may occur. So I\u2019m interested in the Minister\u2019s views on whether that fits into the main provisions of this bill or not, because, obviously, in some of the fish stock assessments that they\u2019re doing or the research work that they\u2019re doing, they have to catch large volumes of fish, and that will require significant levels of discarding, because, obviously, over time that vessel has been adapted and no longer has the carrying capacity or the holding capacity in terms of processed fish that it had when it was first commissioned as a research vessel. I think two out of the three pounds have been removed from that vessel, so is there an unintended consequence here that might actually capture that vessel in particular, and others like it, or are we confident that it will be OK? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m very interested in the graduated fines aspect and then the research vessel, please. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002206c9e94275774d55b78154d4161fe92d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206c9e94275774d55b78154d4161fe92d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. In respect of the research vessels, research vessels already get a special permit from the fisheries and they don\u2019t need quota. They don\u2019t need to meet with the general fisheries rules, and the same thing will apply here. They won\u2019t be caught by these discard rules, just like they\u2019re not caught by the quota management system more generally. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of fines, I would make the point that the fines the member asks questions about are court-imposed. They\u2019re the maximum that a court can impose in a prosecution. They\u2019re not an infringement notice; they\u2019re the maximum that a court can impose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENow, if someone was prosecuted for\u2014and they wouldn\u2019t be. But if they were to be prosecuted for catching 51 shrimp, I don\u2019t think that the courts would be imposing a fine of anything like the maximum of even the smaller of those two fine levels. So that\u2019s an issue\u2014if there was a prosecution\u2014for the courts, as to the fine that they would impose. I don\u2019t think it would take a very clever lawyer to convince a court that if they had caught 50 fish and the maximum was X, they wouldn\u2019t fine them 10 times X for 51. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022c23e809d9a2548bca320ed3b0102a219\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c23e809d9a2548bca320ed3b0102a219\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Minister, for clarifying your expectations around that clause. I personally am a huge fan of the pilchard and the sardine. I can understand why a judge who feels as strongly as I do about the value of the sardine\u2014particularly on toast, with some pepper and salt, a squeeze of lemon juice, and maybe a couple of drips of Kaitaia Fire\u2014would potentially be very concerned that 50 or 51 sardines had accidentally been harmed and returned to the sea without making it into the tin. Minister, we would like you to shed some light on how you think judges might treat this in the future. When we just reflect on the sentencing guidelines as they apply to criminals\u2014people who\u2019ve committed offences like assault and robbery and ram raids and theft\u2014what we\u2019ve heard recently from other Ministers of the Government is that the sentencing guidelines haven\u2019t changed but the judges have just interpreted them a bit more liberally, which is why so many people aren\u2019t in jail; they\u2019re at home, or maybe not, with ankle bracelets on. We\u2019d just like to understand from the Minister how it is that he could have such confidence in future judges, because I do want to make sure that if sardines are going to be caught, if pilchards are going to be caught, they\u2019re going to be marinated in tomato sauce and they\u2019re going to be put in the can and not lost overboard, but I also don\u2019t want the fishers who are out there doing the catching to be subject to prosecution or fines. So, Minister, I\u2019d like you to answer that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also like to offer support for the Green member the Hon Eugenie Sage\u2019s amendment to clause 4A, which proposes that the bycatch of protected species needs to be avoided and the need to implement effective measures by fishers to reduce the bycatch of protected species, in particular the Antipodean albatross and the New Zealand sea lion. Now, I understand that there are already significant controls and restrictions in place to make sure that doesn\u2019t happen, but that there may be occasions where it does happen and there may be methods which haven\u2019t yet been fully implemented to make sure that these species\u2014these wonderful animals that soar for days and weeks out to sea, feeding in places where only the hardiest fisherman would actually go but that are at risk from even the most modern fishing practices\u2014are protected. I would just like to reiterate the ACT Party\u2019s support for this measure\u2014obviously, on the basis that practical measures to avoid bycatch of protected species can be implemented. Thank you. Minister, would you please respond to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022db4913aedc8f45619f14e6671888c9b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db4913aedc8f45619f14e6671888c9b9\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E As I\u2019ve previously said, the issues that are raised by the member I suspect are partly in jest, because he would know that it would be very, very unlikely that the prosecutorial authority would ever exercise their discretion to prosecute in the sort of circumstances that he has described, with his pilchards. If they were to do that, then I would trust the courts to deal with it appropriately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the reference to the Green member\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper, section 15 of the Fisheries Act 1996 already contains sufficient powers, so the member\u2014being someone that doesn\u2019t like to have confusing legislation or over-regulation\u2014I think might revisit his opinion on that particular Supplementary Order Paper if he read section 15 of the primary Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022 data-id=\u00226bda97ccb3e5488cb0447b7b8b5f6641\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226bda97ccb3e5488cb0447b7b8b5f6641\u0022\u003ETODD MULLER (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d just like to build on the Minister\u2019s last couple of conversations around the confidence that he wants us to have around how the judicial system will approach the penalties regime, because what he has done is highlighted one of the real concerns that we had as the Primary Production Committee, that too much of this is left to the interpretation of the regulations and the subsequent conversations, if you like, that are to be had with wider stakeholders over the next four years. At one level, that circle-back for consultation in terms of the secondary legislation impacts makes sense, of course, but it does give us real pause for thought and concern as the select committee, because the theme, Minister, that seemed to keep coming through when we tried to get clarity around the judgments that would be brought to bear on the 50 pilchards versus 50 tuna was, essentially, \u201Ctrust us\u201D, that once we get into the discussions with the industry and design the needed regulations where that\u2019s applied, those sensible decisions will get made, as opposed to relying on more clearer direction from the primary legislation as to the balance that we were seeking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EYou know, one of the concerns that I still have when I reflect on this bill is those various submissions from the smaller, often contract, fishers\u2014for example, a few that talked to us from the Taranaki region. Relatively, in some cases, old or depreciated assets have been in industry for a long time, but the idea of a requirement to have cameras and the costs associated with that, and the reality of having to try to fish in some of those regions and not catch snapper when there\u2019s such a lot of it\u2014as a particular species that is in a healthy state at the moment in that area\u2014and being caught not only in terms of needing to put it against their annual catch entitlement but also just being hammered in terms of potentially letting fish go back to the sea that perhaps don\u2019t meet the criteria that is yet to be negotiated, around survivability and the like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fdb01002-a7cf-4a77-8f05-678d24a36849\u0022\u003EThe concern that we still have, I would say, on this side of the House is too much of this is left to conversations yet to be had and there is not enough direction from the primary legislation. I would ask, Minister, whether you have had pause to reflect. You certainly have in terms of your sense that perhaps the recreational sector\u2019s perspectives weren\u2019t appropriately taken into account with respect to the pre-set decision rules. Have you any concern that perhaps those inshore commercial fishers\u2019 perspectives have not sufficiently been captured in the balance that you have struck with this legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002265b78706ff6f4b7996d86eb91ab7fbc4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265b78706ff6f4b7996d86eb91ab7fbc4\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E I am convinced that this regulatory regime is better than the old one. It is less draconian, it is better for fishers, it\u2019s better for Fisheries New Zealand, it will result in better outcomes for the fishery, and it doesn\u2019t apply any unusual discretions to either the prosecutors or the courts. This is completely normal in any area of regulation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u002253ec8fb01db640b38420c092e917a859\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253ec8fb01db640b38420c092e917a859\u0022\u003EWILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3e0cdbc1f894b40b35abd82446a4a60\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3e0cdbc1f894b40b35abd82446a4a60\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT): Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, going back to my \u003C/span\u003ESupplementary Order Paper 256\u2014you didn\u2019t answer me, sir\u2014would you give it consideration? I think the explanatory note lays it out quite clearly about the nominal value or monetised value of certain species versus others, and having so-called \u201Cbait fish\u201D removed in that 50\u2014more-or-less\u2014limit to try and give a little bit more certainty. Especially to coastal commercial fishermen\u2014they\u2019re going to be heavily affected by the potentiality of unwanted bycatch and the attached prosecutorial reality that may follow. Would you give it consideration? Because I think this part of the industry, certainly from the submitters we heard, is deeply aggrieved about the legislation as proposed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3a084fe88784627ab641d8a52f18258\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3a084fe88784627ab641d8a52f18258\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E I have previously addressed that issue; we\u2019re not supporting that Supplementary Order Paper. We don\u2019t think it\u2019s draconian; we do think it\u2019s appropriate that fish that are caught are landed, and I\u2019ve covered the reasons for that in a number of contributions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022402b7275ed7245658c0734cdd9a35d2d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022402b7275ed7245658c0734cdd9a35d2d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the next call, I do want to warn members that we are beginning to have repetitive questions on Supplementary Order Papers (SOPs), so please make it relevant. And if it\u2019s SOPs that have not yet been covered, go ahead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u00222f4940a077ad4d7cba819a99418ca364\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f4940a077ad4d7cba819a99418ca364\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I will just start by reiterating my request for a response to my first comments. The Minister, David Parker, still has not addressed those with regards to his Supplementary Order Paper, put forward at the last minute, removing the pre-set decision rules, and why that suddenly came to be only a couple of hours ago, why it was not signalled at all in his second reading contribution just 24 hours ago, and why he thinks that is now appropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EBut specifically within that, and I think that this speaks to some of the ridiculousness of the process that we\u2019re going through here\u2014this is really shoddy process. Part 1: we\u2019re looking at clause 5, which inserts new section 11AAA, where it is talking about the pre-set decision rules for sustainability measures. So in the first instance, the Minister put forward the following: \u201CThe Minister may (a) make rules that specify an approved range or limits within which any sustainability measure for 1 or more stocks or areas may be set or varied (the pre-set decision rules):\u201D. Then during the select committee process that got taken out again because that wasn\u2019t deemed to be appropriate, apparently. I\u2019m interested in why the Minister has gone through this process and where he sees it sitting. Then he put back in, \u201CThe Minister may make rules within which any sustainability measure for 1 or more stocks or areas may be set or varied\u201D. Now he\u2019s taken it out again. So we\u2019re seeing something getting put in, getting taken out, then put it back in, getting taken out again. I mean, this is absolutely shonky decision-making\u2014shonky legislation-making\u2014from the Minister, and I\u2019m interested in why he thinks that was appropriate and then wasn\u2019t, and then was and then wasn\u2019t, and if he\u2019s confident now that he has actually made the right decision on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u002270001ee2f5a34e02917fe8671080340a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270001ee2f5a34e02917fe8671080340a\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just a quick question. In terms of clause 16 and clause 23 and the fact that there can be an alternative method of disposal\u2014and I\u2019m thinking, I wish we\u2019d been able to change that word, because it does suggest that fish that are landed can end up as waste. The Minister has said it could go to fish meal or it could go to landfill, but nobody wants that. But in terms of clause 23 and the regulations which the chief executive of Fisheries New Zealand or the Ministry for Primary Industries can make, what monitoring will be done by Fisheries New Zealand of fish that have landed, that don\u2019t go to a licensed receiver, and are somehow disposed of in another way? Will there be monitoring of quantities? Will there have to be detailed reporting on that, and will there be a mechanism to respond if a lot of it is going to landfill? We\u2019ve seen a lot of salmon go to the Blenheim landfill because of increased sea temperatures in the Marlborough Sounds\u2014different reason, but what monitoring is going to be done in relation to alternative methods of disposal other than going to a licensed fish receiver?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c95337faa98a43849e14ca45215d327d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c95337faa98a43849e14ca45215d327d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E As clause 23, which inserts new section 297(1)(a)(xiiv)(D) says, the chief executive will prescribe the requirements relating to the disposal of fish, and those requirements at new section 297(1)(a)(xiiv)(E) can include requirements relating to verification, so that will be prescribed at the time by the chief executive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022 data-id=\u002274c907d6b7834253955d21e224b41db4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274c907d6b7834253955d21e224b41db4\u0022\u003EDr EMILY HENDERSON (Labour\u2014Whang\u0101rei):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002293099f95cb8747f5b0bf9b85f1bc5e4b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293099f95cb8747f5b0bf9b85f1bc5e4b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon David Parker\u2019s amendments to Part 1 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 252 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002273728d4d39214e6e94818aa8e1ab2f67\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 110\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; New Zealand National 33; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00222003b4459f6545ba8f78ac46d35c8a9f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222003b4459f6545ba8f78ac46d35c8a9f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon David Parker\u2019s amendments to Part 1 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 257 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002281f16942b5fa498c9cafb0b55597e781\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002221312dff4bf14b928e312e608971ebc5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221312dff4bf14b928e312e608971ebc5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Eugenie Sage\u2019s amendment inserting new clause 4A set out on Supplementary Order Paper 254 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a0f63a2a892f470ea068cc20bff7ecba\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 108\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; New Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002293ca762ebf52453a8be33bd6ffbee651\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293ca762ebf52453a8be33bd6ffbee651\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Eugenie Sage\u2019s amendment to clause 6 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 254 is out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EThe question is that Mark Cameron\u2019s amendments to Part 1 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 256 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f6206aed4cc241d495540bc354969dc4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8fc021cebc94d54b4205020ca9e08d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8fc021cebc94d54b4205020ca9e08d1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Todd Muller\u2019s amendments to Part 1 set out Supplementary Order Paper 258 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022729de8e071bb4c7db4c03b0725cbdf61\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00228c0a17a6fe3b4c919d69715897ac50d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c0a17a6fe3b4c919d69715897ac50d2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Todd Muller\u2019s amendment to Part 1 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 259 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e38a511d83d44de4b5a786c647c19a9a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002204795014be5c4140bff97b575dc1108b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204795014be5c4140bff97b575dc1108b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Eugenie Sage\u2019s amendments to Part 1 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 255 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022276bd802518049609d9144f553a56d60\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 108\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; New Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00227c91e3d5a8c049febe7bd9d97f8e135e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c91e3d5a8c049febe7bd9d97f8e135e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Todd Muller\u2019s amendment to Part 1 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 253 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d9f57aa2eb564fa582615d4192de9709\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000695\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022de7ff0830c18442993a0aa6298287467\u0022\u003EPart 2  Repeal and consequential amendments, and Schedules 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9ccb4cb4d4d4f228a2cdeeee24c9e1a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9ccb4cb4d4d4f228a2cdeeee24c9e1a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 2. This is the debate on clauses 27 to 31 and Schedules 1 to 3, \u201CRepeal and consequential amendments\u201D. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EThe question is that the Hon David Parker\u2019s amendments to Part 2 set out on Supplementary Order 252 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbd328e1260e4c0eb78c3bf2371b8cc3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbd328e1260e4c0eb78c3bf2371b8cc3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon David Parker\u2019s amendments to Schedule 1 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 252 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002286f098ecf4064df6a6b57d9016d9e057\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286f098ecf4064df6a6b57d9016d9e057\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon David Parker\u2019s amendment inserting new Schedule 2A set out on Supplementary Order Paper 252 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022084bdad57c2b483c8b8cd39ece290558\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022084bdad57c2b483c8b8cd39ece290558\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon David Parker\u2019s amendments to Schedule 3 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 252 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003ESchedule 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aac1ef5ff9b94f47973616ed7fdf9217\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002240077c58dcbf45e5bf6a3fc2d4cd9373\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240077c58dcbf45e5bf6a3fc2d4cd9373\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to our final debate. This is clauses 1 to 3, which is the title, commencement, and principal Act. The question is that clause 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022c817329872614e8896c2f2bf79c04662\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c817329872614e8896c2f2bf79c04662\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon David Parker\u2019s amendment to clause 2 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 252 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bcc6193be8c747ee9dac701a06da675c\u0022\u003EPlant Variety Rights Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221c87404150bf450fbc389dfcc9c8eb1c\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000720\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 31 August.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022510cb50efa75412f94fd1209a724a183\u0022\u003EPart 4  Grant of plant variety rights (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00226418f6a97ce447e79ce4d4fa2706b3fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226418f6a97ce447e79ce4d4fa2706b3fe\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to the Plant Variety Rights Bill. Members, when we were last debating this bill, we were debating Part 4, which is the debate on clauses 28 to 51, \u201CGrant of plant variety rights\u201D. The question is that Part 4 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4220bb0000143208361ffc38fb42294\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4220bb0000143208361ffc38fb42294\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to talk to my Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 192, which deals with clauses 28, 52, and 56, and a number of other clauses relating to this. This is just by way of background, because we\u2019ve sort of jumped in the middle of a debate and everyone homing in on TV will be trying to work it out. There have been certain discussions on the bill, but the SOP that I\u2019ve put up really relates to the issue of who has the jurisdiction to approve plant variety rights. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EAs the Chair will no doubt know, there is a tribunal that has overall responsibility, but the bill introduces a new committee called the M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee. It\u2019s noted in the commentary that the committee will consider applications for plant variety rights\u2014PVRs\u2014in relation to indigenous and certain non-indigenous plant species. It would further assess the effect that granting such PVRs could have on kaitiaki relationships and make decisions about whether or not the PVR application should proceed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo my SOP that has been put forward deals with the issue of this approval process. I\u2019m sort of turning my mind specifically to clause 28, the granting of a PVR. Under the existing way that the bill is constructed, the freedom may apply to the commissioner for a plant variety to be considered\u2014to have the rights\u2014but the commissioner must consider the application in accordance with subclauses (3) and (4) of clause 28. Those bits are that \u201CAfter considering the application, the Commissioner must\u2014(a) grant the PVR to the applicant\u201D\u2014so must grant it\u2014\u201C(i) if satisfied that the criteria for granting a PVR in section 30 are met; and (ii) in a case where Part 5 applies, if the M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee has informed the Commissioner under section 65 that the application should proceed;\u201D, and over the page, it talks about the M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee having the ability to decide. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EMy SOP suggests and proposes\u2014and it\u2019s important that we have a M\u0101ori plant varieties committee to deal with indigenous plants, but it shouldn\u2019t be a decisive body. It shouldn\u2019t be a body that decides; it should be one that advises the commissioner. So it doesn\u2019t take away from the M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee the ability to have regard and consider plant matter that\u2019s certainly indigenous. Some of the definition around \u201Cnon-indigenous\u201D probably needs to be discussed further, and I will further it in a further contribution, but what it says is that it should advise the commissioner, because the commissioner is the one that has the ultimate decision-making power. But under the way that the bill is constructed, this means that if the application doesn\u2019t get past the M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee, it will not proceed to the commissioner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019d like to propose that SOP. It has a ripple effect across a number of the clauses of the bill, but certainly I\u2019d like to hear from the Minister as to his view on whether or not and why this shouldn\u2019t be the case. I look forward to that contribution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002277045501a8f14423a61df6539edb4b1d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277045501a8f14423a61df6539edb4b1d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: I call Andrew Bayly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8ac46561a7c499b8fb159b39d4de834\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8ac46561a7c499b8fb159b39d4de834\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Well, we\u2019ll carry right along. So we\u2019re waiting for the Minister to get some advice, which would be great.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo my second point, which I just alluded to\u2014I hadn\u2019t intended to be continuing on, but let\u2019s move right along\u2014is the issue around the jurisdiction of the M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee. As I said before, the committee would consider applications for a PVR\u2014a plant variety right\u2014in relation to indigenous and certain non-indigenous plant species. So the one thing I am very keen to hear from the Minister is what \u201Ccertain non-indigenous plant species\u201D are. Of course, when you sit and think about it for more than two minutes, it is an issue as to\u2014you know, plants develop over time. You have hybrid species and sometimes it\u2019s intentional, and sometimes it\u2019s a matter of nature at its best in terms of bringing hybrid vigour to the different plant varieties. So having an understanding of what \u201Ccertain non-indigenous plant species\u201D means in relation to the M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee having jurisdiction over that, again, I would just\u2014thank you, Mr Parker, for being in the chair, and I welcome Minister Dr David Clark. So I\u2019m just letting him have a moment here while he gets up to speed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, I have asked two questions. Certainly, one is around my Supplementary Order Paper 192 about making the M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee have an advisory capacity, because, ultimately, it should be the commission that decides on applications in relation to indigenous and certain non-indigenous plant species. The second aspect is: what does a \u201Cnon-indigenous plant species\u201D mean in relation to the M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee jurisdiction? So, hopefully, you\u2019ve had time to consider those two matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed720d6508f04865917defc44dc1ae8a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed720d6508f04865917defc44dc1ae8a\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you. So, first off, the member asks why the M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee is not an advisory committee like, for example, the Trademarks Advisory Committee, which would be a parallel example. Other than the decision-making power of the committee, the committee is set up in just the same way as M\u0101ori advisory committees in that other regime\u2014so that\u2019s the first point to make. The member is correct in drawing that kind of parallel. Though those other committees are only advisory, it is I think worth the committee noting that the commissioner has never gone against the advice of that committee in those other circumstances\u2014that\u2019s what I\u2019m advised. Some trademark and patent applications have not proceeded as a result of the advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EIn respect of the Wai 262 recommendations, it was important to listen to the views of M\u0101ori and engage in good faith on the Treaty provisions in the bill. The Wai 262 recommendations are not binding on the Crown, nor do they set any kind of ceiling on how the Crown may respond. The Crown, basically, has the flexibility and, arguably, the responsibility to determine how best to respond to those recommendations. So this is the response we have made, and I\u2019m just trying to think whether it\u2019s worth\u2014yeah, I suppose\u2014making the other point. In the Wai 262 inquiry, the tribunal found that the approach taken in the bill is consistent with Ko Aotearoa T\u0113nei\u2019s findings on the balancing required to give effect to the applicable Te Tiriti\u2014Treaty\u2014principles of partnership in active processes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EIn respect of the member\u2019s other question around certain non-indigenous plant species, the member Melissa Lee raised this, actually, in an earlier stage of the debate, but let\u2019s cover it here. There\u2019s no list in the bill or regulations of indigenous plant species, but there is a list of non-indigenous species of significance that will be prescribed in the regulations. The list of non-indigenous species of significance was approved by Cabinet when it agreed on the policy decisions on the Plant Variety Rights Regulations, and I\u2019d note for the record that that relevant Cabinet paper and minute had been proactively released. But for the benefit of the House, that list includes: kuru, or breadfruit; hue, or gourd or calabash; aute, or paper-mulberry; karaka/k\u014Dp\u012B; paratawhiti/paraa; perei; k\u016Bmara; taro; t\u012B pore, which is Pacific cabbage tree, I\u2019m told; and whikaho, or yam. So that is the list of things that are included, and they will be included in those regulations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00225ea1e758e21040839c242c12adf048a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ea1e758e21040839c242c12adf048a2\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, and I appreciate the Minister\u2019s response. Just dealing with each of those in turn, the first one is the list that Cabinet has approved, and thank you for specifying those. So the question there obviously arises: if that is the list that\u2019s been approved by Cabinet, why wouldn\u2019t that be hardwired into the legislation? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI suppose another way of asking the same question is that if Cabinet has agreed a list and it gets put into regulations, that means that, subsequently, certain non-indigenous species can be added to or subtracted relatively easily, so is the intent of Cabinet that there should be further additions to that list that Cabinet has already agreed, and is that why it\u2019s going into regulations? I think that lack of clarity would be an important issue for the plant growers of New Zealand to know whether, in fact, they\u2019re likely going to be captured too, or possibly going to be captured, under what is deemed certain non-indigenous species. So that\u2019s the first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EWith regard to the more substantive issue\u2014which was the first issue I raised, around the role of the M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee\u2014what I detected from the Minister\u2019s statement was a very nuanced but significant change, because if I understand what the Minister was saying, up to now there have been many examples of similar advisory committees having an advisory capacity. They do not have the right under previous legislation to be able to make determinations and, if I\u2019m correct, what the Minister has just said is that there is a subtle change that this Plant Variety Rights Bill introduces which means that the M\u0101ori advisory committee, in this case, moves from being an advisory committee to a decision-making committee. I take the point that a commissioner hasn\u2019t gone against advice of these types of tribunals or committees, but it is an important fundamental legal change if it means that this is the first committee of this type\u2014the M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee\u2014where we\u2019ve made that subtle change from an advisory to a decision-making committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s significant, and I\u2019m looking at my good colleague the former lawyer the Hon Judith Collins. I think the issue is really important\u2014this subtle change, if that is the case\u2014and I\u2019d love the Minister to be clear whether, in fact, it is, because if there is that subtle change, that changes the rights and sets a precedent that is really, really important. I think it\u2019s really important at this stage to be absolutely clear and transparent about that change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa0c259756ce41c9b02453add74d8c8d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa0c259756ce41c9b02453add74d8c8d\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Papakura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. While we\u2019re awaiting the Minister\u2019s reply to my colleague Andrew Bayly\u2019s very important questions, perhaps he could also turn his mind to this. As I\u2019ve read Part 4, it is very clear that there is this M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee, which has a veto power over the plant variety rights applications. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ENow, looking at that too, what is indigenous, and what is covered in this is indigenous\u2014well, no doubt there is a set number of indigenous plants that we can all agree were here without human intervention, or have turned up like that, and then there are the ones that are covered because they came on waka before 1776, and that\u2019s very clear from the bill. So we should have an exact number of those, with their names, and the Minister has read out a list which I understand are the ones he says are going to be in the regulations which will fall under this. So if there\u2019s a set number, then why aren\u2019t they in the Act? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not as though we are really expecting that there\u2019s going to be another plant variety discovered that no one has worked out was there since 1776, so I think Andrew Bayly has got a very good point: if it\u2019s a finite number and a finite list, then why isn\u2019t it in the primary legislation? We know that the regulations normally are where there are things that there are going to be changes to. Are we seriously anticipating there will be changes to this? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThen the other point that I would ask the Minister to give thought to is: are we going to be stuck with the law of unintended consequences? So if we take k\u016Bmara, which he has referred to and which we know came on waka with M\u0101ori when they came to New Zealand, they came from somewhere else. So there are k\u016Bmara elsewhere. They were brought here and are very important to the culture of M\u0101ori and, I think, of many New Zealanders who are non-M\u0101ori. Having said that, we know that k\u016Bmara, or another name for what we would call k\u016Bmara, are elsewhere in the world, and there is, from what I can see from this, nothing to stop people in the plant-breeding business in, say, Australia or Peru producing and looking for new ways of making plant varieties of k\u016Bmara, while New Zealanders here in this land that values k\u016Bmara so much could be perhaps prevented from moving forward and discovering and creating new varieties. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI wonder if it is one of the unintended consequences that New Zealand could be kept in a time warp around products or very important plant varieties to us\u2014what is the term that\u2019s being used\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231ede00050e3426e908bb2835da60a38\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Non-indigenous species.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2beb9bab2874c77bf0874c84951208b\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014non-indigenous but significant plant varieties\u2014while other jurisdictions who do not consider those plant varieties as so significant that they can\u2019t be changed or can\u2019t have rights granted in them might charge ahead and come up with varieties that are pest-free, that are pest-resistant, that are able to grow with little water, and all these sorts of things, and New Zealand is left sitting there saying, \u201CIn this era of climate change and all the effects of that, do we have to import the stock from Australia?\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s that situation, and so I\u2019d like to hear from the Minister on that as well. So I back up Andrew Bayly and I\u2019d ask that other question. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc88469fcaa04c69a4407a1aa5886098\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc88469fcaa04c69a4407a1aa5886098\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, speaking to Part 5, and forgive my naivety, but I\u2019m just trying to get some clarity here\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279d5ec31fbde4ce4aec0ad1976dfa039\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re still on Part 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa010a837201469cae51dbcee37d5275\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, we\u2019re on Part 4\u2014I apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u00229e50c91252474006a576789ce9ee5d4e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e50c91252474006a576789ce9ee5d4e\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I\u2019d like to thank my colleague the Hon Judith Collins for raising the issue of k\u016Bmara. I\u2019d like to enlighten my colleagues across the House about Fay and Joe Gock, who have been growing k\u016Bmara for 60 years. I just wanted to bring to the Minister and my colleagues that Fay and her husband Joe are credited with having saved the k\u016Bmara when black rot threatened to obliterate the industry in the 1950s\u2014and I\u2019m reading from a news article\u2014\u201CThey gifted their disease resistant strain to the nation, refusing to take any money for it.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EWhat happened was that they developed a disease-free k\u016Bmara strain which became known as owairaka red in the late 1950s. When there was this disease that literally threatened all of the k\u016Bmara stock in New Zealand, they actually gifted it to the Department of Science and Industrial Research to help re-establish the k\u016Bmara stock. So, in effect, how will this reflect in terms of the kaitiaki relationship when, in fact, it was the Gocks who actually saved the k\u016Bmara stock from their own black rot - resistant strain that they themselves had in fact developed, while all the other strains would have been decimated as a result of that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00224373737c95ba43ee9a6c48c26929acf8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224373737c95ba43ee9a6c48c26929acf8\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I must admit that I am just stalling, and I don\u2019t intend to stall. I\u2019m really keen for a Minister to respond, because I\u2019ve asked two quite significant questions. I think\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c36004f5059451c9593ef66cd4ae8a3\u0022\u003EHon Dr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Do reiterate\u2014do reiterate, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bb8ec7d0e384cb1a1d22337b98a2f4e\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: OK, I\u2019ll do that at the urging of the Minister. So this issue around non-indigenous plant species is fascinating, and it\u2019s interesting\u2014the view of my colleague the Hon Judith Collins. Plant varieties, as I was saying before, evolve either naturally or through genetic engineering, but whatever the case, what might have been deemed a plant material 600 years ago and where it ends up now, and the use it\u2019s put towards and how it\u2019s applied\u2014because we always assume it\u2019s always for a food crop or whatever. I heard the Minister mention a cabbage tree, and, of course, the uses of that product over time\u2014how do you know it doesn\u2019t turn out to be a wonderful methane inhibitor for cattle? That\u2019s a wild idea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s why I think it\u2019s really important that we have absolute clarity around what is meant by this non-indigenous plant species, because it\u2019s pretty quick. I think the Minister identified probably about 12 species in his response earlier on, but how do we know it just doesn\u2019t migrate and become not only a wider list but, actually, after a while\u2014you know, all plant species have a lot of value, and it\u2019s been fascinating what\u2019s happened with m\u0101nuka. The good old days of m\u0101nuka being chopped down because it was a pain on hillsides, but now, with the genetic engineering that\u2019s gone on and the wonderfully high levels of protection that m\u0101nuka offers\u2014particularly factoring in the honey\u2014how that has transformed that product. But, of course, m\u0101nuka is now used in a wide range of other products such as soaps, which have not only a health benefit but then a perfume benefit\u2014right? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EOf course, we\u2019ve seen it with strawberries, we\u2019ve seen it with apples, and the classic is kiwifruit. It was green, now it\u2019s yellow, and now, of course, it\u2019s red. Those are quite deliberate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9be71861b9043d4b8b6bf46ed54b698\u0022\u003EMelissa Lee\u003C/span\u003E: Chinese gooseberry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f38ac97a25cc404792e1f4a68da17a5d\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, Chinese gooseberry, as Melissa Lee is quite rightly highlighting. Originally, it was named that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo there are the uses of plant material as it moves not only in terms of a food source but for other types of purposes, and that\u2019s why it\u2019s very important that for the people who are involved in this propagation of plants and the intellectual property protection around it, it\u2019s an absolute requirement that there be clarity around what are the protected indigenous species. I find the term \u201Cnon-indigenous\u201D plant species the worrying one, and why that\u2019s being put into regulations and not hard-wired into the bill\u2014because that\u2019s where it should be if it\u2019s a definitive list. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBut also, a lot of this can this be challenged, because, going back to the kiwifruit, if that was the original Chinese gooseberry, Zespri would\u2019ve commercialised multiple variants of that plant variety, and so what does that mean? Who owns that? Who controls that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EUnder the bill as it\u2019s currently written, that is now at their discretion, and it\u2019s a decision-making discretion rather than an advisory role\u2014as to whether in fact the M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee will say yes or no. I presume that if they say no, the commissioner must respect that, and it doesn\u2019t even go to the commissioner. Is the commissioner empowered under this bill to say \u201CWell, I\u2019ve heard what the M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee has said and made a decision on.\u201D, because that\u2019s the way it\u2019s framed? Can the commissioner overturn that and say, \u201CWell, I\u2019m not going to accept that.\u201D? I think the Minister is shaking his head, so this is interesting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022fba0de070de143679e780cc2595e60da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fba0de070de143679e780cc2595e60da\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. So the certain non-indigenous plants species that I read out that will be prescribed in regulations comes to a list of 10. The member Andrew Bayly said it was about 12, and he\u2019s about right: it\u2019s 10 in that list, currently. For that list to be expanded, a kaitiaki relationship would have to be established, and the M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee would be the adjudicator on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220458b8ca43a0401ba6e604644e8f7ca8\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: The M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fc0cdb52e2f47bca98f9ee16b85ac31\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, because they would have to establish a kaitiaki relationship, which is not an easy test, but it\u2019s a test. I think this is one of the reasons why the recommendations brought by the committee to have an appeal right are important also for the confidence and certainty of breeders, and that\u2019s why I have welcomed that recommendation from the committee to have an appeal right, which will be surfaced through the M\u0101ori Appellate Court, for anybody that wants to take action in that respect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESo I agree with the committee\u2019s finding that an appeal right was important. We wrote to the judiciary and got back their recommendation that the M\u0101ori Appellate Court would be the appropriate body to consider appeals with the necessary expertise and seniority. That is a change from the original bill and, I think, an improvement, because I\u2019m accepting an aspect of the member\u2019s argument there that there has to be a natural justice process if that kaitiaki relationship or other things were to be challenged on the way through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00222ac3e96fdba94422a42f7c487b2f7b81\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ac3e96fdba94422a42f7c487b2f7b81\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Minister, and it\u2019s good that we\u2019re having this interactive. The one question I think the Minister was going to answer was whether, in fact, the commissioner could overturn the decision of the M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee, and, if I understood what he was indicating before, that\u2019s not the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022da9a8ec1fbbf434284605c7e304ef5dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da9a8ec1fbbf434284605c7e304ef5dc\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. No, they have a separate jurisdiction to the commissioner. They are there to hear things where there is a kaitiaki relationship established or able to be established.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u002211d634b23d424dceb4949a5c5a3eb8ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211d634b23d424dceb4949a5c5a3eb8ac\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E So that\u2019s a no? Thank you. So this is really, really significant, and this is not to say that there\u2019s not a role for the M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee\u2014no one is suggesting that for a moment\u2014and we all understand kaitiaki. But does the Minister not consider that if you establish a M\u0101ori plant varieties committee to assess whether something is of kaitiaki nature and they become the sole defining body to determine that, isn\u2019t that a bit of a conflict? I would have thought that it just seems like we\u2019re enshrining in this bill a sort of a whole separate process depending on whether it\u2019s indigenous or \u201Ccertain non-indigenous plant species\u201D, setting that on a course through the M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee, and then, if you aren\u2019t happy with the outcome, you go to the M\u0101ori Appellate Court. I\u2019ll yield to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb0d0351c58347ea8c8f674a20d8192f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb0d0351c58347ea8c8f674a20d8192f\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I think this is useful clarification, and I perhaps haven\u2019t been as clear as I could be about the process of getting to that committee. There is a process that\u2019s laid out\u2014and we have debated some of that\u2014as to whether a decision goes to that M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee or not, and the commissioner oversees that process and refers on it, as appropriate, to that committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00220a6c36c0eece4fcfbb65e9d13cb8a125\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a6c36c0eece4fcfbb65e9d13cb8a125\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: I also just want to point out to especially the member Andrew Bayly that this has actually morphed into Part 5, the M\u0101ori plant variety. So if you have any questions on Part 4 or comments to make on Part 4, now is the time, otherwise we can move on to Part 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u002244cedbc831b5494ba53b707f2841bf0a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244cedbc831b5494ba53b707f2841bf0a\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you, Madam Chair, although my Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 192 actually specifically deals with clause 28, which is what we\u2019re right in the heart of debating at the moment. So what I understand is that if it\u2019s of a kaitiaki nature, the commissioner will refer that to the M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee. That committee has the ability to solely determine whether, in fact, it is of a kaitiaki nature, and if there\u2019s any dispute about that, a plant grower, or whoever it might be\u2014a horticulturalist\u2014can go to the M\u0101ori Appellate Court for a jurisdiction on overturning it. But the commission has no power to deal with that. Again, the nature of my SOP was to make it clear that the recommendation was that it should be an advisory issue, not a decision making\u2014so I just want to make sure. This is the last time I\u2019ll talk about that. But if that\u2019s the situation and I\u2019ve outlined it correctly, I\u2019d love the Minister to be clear about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EAll right, can I move on to the next SOP? I know there are plenty of SOPs here, so I don\u2019t want to hog this show, Madam Chair. [Interruption] Good\u2014well, I\u2019m getting encouraged here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI want to pick up on Judith Collins\u2019 great SOP, and I know that she\u2019ll want to contribute to this. Her SOP 201 deals with new clause 39A. What it does is it talks about provisional protection, and it states that \u201CAn applicant has the right to take proceedings under this Act from the application date as if on that date a PVR had been granted to the applicant in respect of the variety concerned.\u201D What this SOP is about\u2014and I know that the Hon Judith Collins has worked very closely with the likes of Zespri to understand some of the ramifications, but that\u2019s just one example of a horticultural entity. But what it does is that it retains the current provision for provisional protection set out under section 9 of the Plant Variety Rights Act 1987. So what this is doing is saying, \u201CDon\u2019t get rid of the old stuff; let\u2019s protect it.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe key thing about this is that if you do not put in this SOP with new clause 39A\u2014without this amendment, the bill allows for a plant variety right holder to bring an action against infringement only after the grant of the right. Now, this raises the whole issue about time\u2014time between making an application, between receiving the plant variety right and the ability to have rights over that plant variety\u2014and to wait that period of time is a substantial amount of time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI suppose one analogy which may or may not be appropriate is where we\u2019ve lost rights, or we\u2019ve seen some of our red kiwifruit being planted in offshore jurisdictions. I don\u2019t know whether there was a delay there, but if there was a such a case where the application hadn\u2019t been processed\u2014certainly the application was made, but not processed and, therefore, it hadn\u2019t enshrined the rights of Zespri in that case\u2014then that would mean that Zespri would have to wait several years, and in that time the other jurisdiction could set about marketing and using that, and that\u2019s a much harder situation to retrieve if you\u2019ve spent years and lots of money trying to develop a new plant species.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo the big question for the Minister to start with is why on earth wouldn\u2019t you protect the intellectual property of New Zealand companies\u2014and, by the way, it might be M\u0101ori companies\u2014in terms of making sure that between the time of the making the application and the granting of the licence, or the protection of the right, New Zealand companies, New Zealand entities, and New Zealand individuals have the ability to pursue proceedings against those who may have wilfully or\u2014maybe even worse than that\u2014deliberately stolen or misused plant varieties, or gained that plant variety through other means which are totally illegal? So I think that is an absolutely important provision that should be in adopted in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EAgain, we\u2019ll just give the Minister\u2014I will continue\u2014[Time expired]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022d07da07b6d1141859664b21c1391d2a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d07da07b6d1141859664b21c1391d2a3\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Papakura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d like to hear from the Minister why he didn\u2019t take the advice from the actual experts in this area, because, quite clearly, the people who have the most experience in the plant varieties rights area are our horticultural giants like Zespri and like Turners \u0026amp; Growers. They are people who have been working in this area for a very long time and who have though their ingenuity, their commitment, the research that they\u2019ve done, and the way in which they have conducted themselves been able to build an industry which is of benefit to all New Zealanders\u2014all New Zealanders\u2014because we\u2019re an exporting nation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIt seems odd to me that the Minister has not taken their advice, and I realise that there could be some who thought that perhaps kiwifruit farmers and others are making great profits and that that means they\u2019re paying great taxes. I understand that there might be a bit of a snitch on the other side of the House to think that people who have bought land or leased land and who have taken risks should make a profit, but that\u2019s how we get paid, basically. It\u2019s called taxes, which they pay. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019d like to ask why that is, and why it is that we haven\u2019t heard from the Minister yet on the issues that I\u2019ve already raised with him today, as well as this particular issue that Andrew Bayly has referred to and which is contained in my Supplementary Order Paper, which is that it\u2019s really important that we need to make sure that we are not just in competition with Australia or our near neighbours. We are in competition with the world, and with regard to our produce such as, say, kiwifruit, people like Zespri and Turners \u0026amp; Growers need to be able export the plant stock as well to other parts of the world so that they don\u2019t lose the currency\u2014basically, lose shelf space\u2014in supermarkets all over the world. So they need to be able to do this, and they can\u2019t do this effectively if they are not going to have the level of protection that they need for the incredible investment that goes on in producing and keeping up to date with trends that the buying public want to have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EJust to give an example of how important this is, we all remember the Psa disaster that came through and wiped out so much of the gold kiwifruit. It should in most people\u2019s minds have been a situation where that industry was just completely gone for years, but it wasn\u2019t gone for years because there had already been so much work done on the SunGold that there was grafting going on, and, in fact, a new variety was able to be brought to market that didn\u2019t have the Psa issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ESo this is the sort of work that goes on. Even if we don\u2019t see it with our own eyes, it\u2019s still going on, and these New Zealand businesses that are so important to our country and our economy and our prosperity and our ability to pay for nurses\u2019 wages and our ability to pay for police officers\u2019 wages and our ability to get children to school\u2014why is it that the Minister has not taken their advice? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u002282aadbed756d4a8b8a072ed787e45bbe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282aadbed756d4a8b8a072ed787e45bbe\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll just speak to the member Judith Collins\u2019 Supplementary Order Paper 201 there. What is being proposed would be completely out of whack with all of the jurisdictions we like to compare ourselves to, and it would put us in a position where if a plant variety right were never granted but we enforced, essentially, a provisional status, that simply wouldn\u2019t be fair on people who were being sued\u2014for example, the growers. It would introduce an injustice that none of our comparable jurisdictions have considered worth introducing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u0022827de7c21d014d23aa68580e3c69d85b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022827de7c21d014d23aa68580e3c69d85b\u0022\u003EWILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7e4c30d3b8641f88c19904e1d69019c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7e4c30d3b8641f88c19904e1d69019c\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you to the Minister for his response. I find that quite horrific, that response, because I think it shows a degree of naivety that I find crippling, and I imagine anyone who is growing new plants in New Zealand and developing new plant varieties in New Zealand will be appalled at that statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBut I just want to remind the Minister\u2014and this is why it was so important I had this call, and I\u2019m very grateful to Madam Chair for granting it to me. In the commentary to the bill, which is the bit at the beginning, it states that \u201CThe bill would also give effect to New Zealand\u2019s international treaty obligations. New Zealand is party to the International Convention for the Protection of New Varieties of Plants (UPOV). The 1978 revision of that agreement is reflected in the 1987 PVR Act. However, under the CPTPP which New Zealand signed in 2018, the Government agreed to implement law to either \u2018accede\u2019 \u2026 or \u2018give effect\u2019 to, the 1991 revision of UPOV (UPOV-91).\u201D All glorious stuff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo that is why I find the Minister\u2019s response actually factually wrong, because the provisions, that the Hon Judith Collins is seeking to introduce on Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 201 were already enshrined in the original Act that this bill was going to amend. It was already there, and the further reason that it\u2019s been put forward and why people like Zespri, which is not an insignificant New Zealand player, believe that it is important, and fundamentally important, probably, to make sure that we include this SOP provision is\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201CFurther, retaining the provision in the current Plant Varieties Rights Act 1987 allows New Zealand to give effect to Article 13 of the International Convention for the Protection of New Varieties of Plants (1991),\u201D\u2014UPOV-91, which I\u2019ve just referred to, at the very start of this bill\u2014\u201Cas it is required under the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership. Article 13, provides: \u2018Each Contracting Party shall provide measures designed to safeguard the interests of the breeder during the period between the filing or the publication of the application for the grant of a breeder\u2019s right and the grant of that right.\u2019\u00A0\u201D\u2014that\u2019s what we\u2019re talking about; we\u2019re talking about that time delay\u2014\u201C\u00A0\u2018Such measures shall have the effect that the holder of the breeder\u2019s right shall at least be \u2026 equitable remuneration from any person who, during the said period, has carried out acts which, once the right is granted, requires the breeder\u2019s authorization, as provided in Article 14\u2019\u00A0\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EMinister, I\u2019ve got to say to you that I think your advice is poor. You are factually incorrect. You talked about New Zealand growers, and it is absolutely essential that New Zealand growers, who spend a fortune not only in money but in time\u2014because it takes years, often, to develop these plant varieties\u2014have a remedy if someone goes and nicks their stuff or misappropriates it, as we have seen from time to time, unfortunately. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EIt is wrong. This provision needs to be included in the bill. I\u2019m looking at the Minister, and I\u2019m hoping he\u2019s going to give us a proper answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec7bc4c1e6ec4dd882640085275a01fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec7bc4c1e6ec4dd882640085275a01fc\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I feel we have traversed some of this, but the definition that the member\u2019s reading out is not a requirement in the way that he specifies that it is. Secondly, when a plant variety right is granted, then anyone who has used it is required to pay the grant holder appropriately. So, in the interim, if someone is lodging grant applications all over the place willy-nilly and without merit, it doesn\u2019t hold other people\u2019s rights out, and I think the member knows that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022 data-id=\u0022d76907708e584a4abade01dbe095cf7f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d76907708e584a4abade01dbe095cf7f\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e61d2f3e03ee422b8572434c367216f0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002293f393f1556f49b39c121396f84ec7db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293f393f1556f49b39c121396f84ec7db\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment to Part 4 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 132 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00226083ea894f1d42419807fb48fbc4d1f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226083ea894f1d42419807fb48fbc4d1f1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Mark Cameron\u2019s amendments to Part 4 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 186 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228646f400d9db479d828b06d7b577ef6b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 108\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; New Zealand National 33; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002296eb1c0666fb4e9db40109651a2277e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296eb1c0666fb4e9db40109651a2277e0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Andrew Bayly\u2019s amendments to Part 4 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 191 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d70ab191401b4170bfcb7431ad980a15\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00226e34c20e4a14410da9a2b4603b14e710\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e34c20e4a14410da9a2b4603b14e710\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Andrew Bayly\u2019s amendments to Part 4 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 192 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022635b2408442a49c6a3594762777db659\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022b164497c271d46dfa630380b25baba28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b164497c271d46dfa630380b25baba28\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Judith Collins\u2019 amendment inserting new clause 39A set out on Supplementary Order Paper 201 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a4d095320de44e92832a648ece85a0f7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 77\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Sharma.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022969f74a34cd44e8ca3c8984bb6a44f5e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022969f74a34cd44e8ca3c8984bb6a44f5e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Part 4 as amended be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EPart 4 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225732fb28088b4ce2ad3d9b1cf645d69a\u0022\u003EPart 5  Additional provisions that apply to indigenous plant species and non-indigenous plant species of significance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe23376593a34931a8b96b4a5e3100f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe23376593a34931a8b96b4a5e3100f1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 5. This is the debate on clauses 52 to 68D and Schedule 1A, \u201CAdditional provisions that apply to indigenous plant species and non-indigenous plant species of significance\u201D. The question is that Part 5 stand part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8dda72c5b5a46b88af3cfea99c7a909\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8dda72c5b5a46b88af3cfea99c7a909\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I expect that we will probably run over the time allocated for today, even as I make my comments on Part 5. It is where a lot of substantive material and, I expect, substantive debate will reside, and some of the issues we have traversed already in the committee in passing. The member Andrew Bayly\u2019s Supplementary Order Papers (SOPs) have gone across Part 4 and Part 5 in part, so some of the arguments will be traversed again, and I\u2019m looking forward to the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EPart 5 of the bill gives effect to our Treaty of Waitangi obligations in relation to the plant variety rights (PVR) regime. It establishes the M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee, setting up the appointments process, remuneration, and the committee\u2019s functions. It provides that all PVR applications must have to derive from either an indigenous plant species, or one of a short list of non-indigenous plant species of significance where that material was obtained in New Zealand must first be sent to the committee for consideration. It then sets out the role and function of the committee in relation to these applications, and you can see already that these are some of the things that we\u2019ve already started debating but that probably actually belong in Part 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EImportantly, it gives the committee a decision-making power in relation to the applications it considers. This is the right thing to do. Just as the commissioner is empowered to make decisions on matters relating to their expertise, so is the M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee empowered to make decisions on matters relating to their expertise\u2014namely, in Te Ao M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EWith one significant exception, the select committee did not recommend many amendments to these provisions. That exception is the right of appeal to a decision of the M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee, and we had begun to discuss that also in the debate on Part 4. The amendments to the right of appeal are discussed in the Government\u2019s SOP 132, which was released on 8 March this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe SOP I\u2019m tabling\u2014SOP 132\u2014to address a number of technical issues also amends the definition of \u201Cindigenous plant species\u201D. While the introduction version referred to plants that \u201Coccur naturally in New Zealand\u201D, an amendment recommended by the select committee changed this to \u201Cendemic\u201D in New Zealand, following a comment made by a submitter. This has inadvertently narrowed the definition, as it will exclude those indigenous plants that are also found in other countries, and m\u0101nuka is a prime example of that. The SOP reverts the definition back to that in the introduction version of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EUnderstandably, Part 5 has attracted a considerable amount of comment from both industry stakeholders and M\u0101ori. What this part sets out to do is quite new, going further than similar provisions in other intellectual property regimes. Industry stakeholders have generally been concerned about the uncertainties of how this process will play out in practice, and M\u0101ori consider that the provisions do not go far enough to protect their taonga. My view is that the bill addresses both of these issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EFirstly, there will be at least a year following Royal assent before the M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee starts considering applications, and during that time, the committee will prepare guidance for breeders and kaitiaki. The committee is also required to publicly notify the processes by which it will consider applications, and it can advise breeders as appropriate. I think that will be appreciated by all in the industry\u2014that increased scrutiny that comes with that\u2014and that will give breeders the time and support they need in that to prepare for the new processes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe policy decisions underlying the bill were also considered in a three-day Waitangi Tribunal hearing in 2019. The tribunal found no breach of the Treaty and, indeed, endorsed those decisions which strengthened the recommendations of the Wai 262 report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EA little on the right of appeal: the Opposition\u2019s SOP 193 sets to replace the provisions for appeal to the M\u0101ori Appellate Court with provisions for appeal to a specialist plant variety intellectual property review tribunal. The bill as introduced did not contain a right of appeal\u2014and, again, we\u2019ve traversed this a little bit in the Part 4 debate\u2014to the courts on a decision of the M\u0101ori Plant Varieties Committee, though judicial review would always have been available. The intent was to have that committee with its experts in Te Ao M\u0101ori as the key decision-makers. However, many submitters were\u2014and, in my view, rightly\u2014concerned that that wasn\u2019t sufficient and that that legislation should provide adequate pathways to challenge a decision when a person\u2019s interests are affected by a statutory decision. M\u0101ori submitters who commented on the issue disagreed, supporting the rationale of the introduction version, and I congratulate the select committee on finding a solution to the issue that, hopefully, addresses everybody\u2019s concerns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESo the bill now provides that decisions of the M\u0101ori committee be appealable to a higher court and has determined that the most appropriate court is the M\u0101ori Appellate Court, and that was the recommendation of the judiciary. I note that this court would have the necessary expertise to consider the kinds of questions that an appeal would seek to determine and that it would be more accessible for M\u0101ori, both in terms of tikanga and lower filing fees, than the High Court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EI have more to say, but I think it might wait. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002219a745746dcd45159d0277e8c617d8fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219a745746dcd45159d0277e8c617d8fe\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry to disturb the Minister, but I do have to report progress on these bills. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EProgress to be reported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022418ba531dd6e40e089911943af42937d\u0022\u003EREPORT OF COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ef6d92b924bd40228a8de91724dd4966\u0022\u003EREPORT OF COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022670a9f0bdf7840639aaa54df403af4a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022670a9f0bdf7840639aaa54df403af4a9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Hazardous Substances Assessments) Amendment Bill and reports it without amendment. The committee has also considered the Fisheries Amendment Bill and reports it with amendment. The committee has also further considered the Plant Variety Rights Bill and reports progress. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7ac61cf73204636a0f033dd352f8944\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7ac61cf73204636a0f033dd352f8944\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House stands adjourned until 2 p.m. tomorrow. Good evening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 10 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20220928e5a4fcf99f684f599b8108856e99c6ad000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"