"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227dd75d0a70e243218b0c3000d31a6ac4\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 6 DECEMBER 2022\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a6fd0ff1c37146d5932c185af73959f5\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 6 DECEMBER 2022\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226f63d56d622640f490c980e38c8168f8\u0022\u003EKARAKIA/PRAYERS\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022897194542bab4782ac03daed8dfe4bcc\u0022\u003EKARAKIA/PRAYERS\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00226f14abb7345b4014b850982c0a6a4329\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f14abb7345b4014b850982c0a6a4329\u0022\u003EHon JENNY SALESA (Assistant Speaker):\u003C/span\u003E E te Atua kaha rawa, ka tuku whakamoemiti atu m\u0101tou, m\u014D ng\u0101 karakia kua waihotia mai ki runga i a m\u0101tou. Ka waiho i \u014D m\u0101tou p\u0101nga whaiaro katoa ki te taha, ka mihi m\u0101tou ki te K\u012Bngi, me te inoi atu m\u014D te \u0101rahitanga i roto i \u014D m\u0101tou whakaaroarohanga, kia m\u014Dhio ai, kia whakaiti ai t\u0101 m\u0101tou whakahaere i ng\u0101 take o te Whare nei, m\u014D te oranga, te maung\u0101rongo, me te aroha o Aotearoa. \u0100mene.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E[Almighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed upon us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the King, and pray for guidance in our deliberations, that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom and humility, for the welfare, peace, and compassion of New Zealand. Amen.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227df269c18c9a401c861808af9dcf7d59\u0022\u003EVisitors\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e83605f7eca94c5ca8ae3399ee13af1f\u0022\u003EVietnam\u2014National Assembly, President\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022adaa61f204ae4c668a76a7072ff907f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022adaa61f204ae4c668a76a7072ff907f4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sure members would wish to welcome His Excellency, Mr V\u01B0\u01A1ng \u0110\u00ECnh Hu\u1EC7, President of the National Assembly, Republic of Vietnam, who is to my left, and to his delegation in the gallery. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221ac0a2e9001d459fb3d2c8b168e88d7d\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220c34f7c2ffbd49f6a8caf49db3a3a0b2\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00224a7bfaab15a34431960c07ff45dc77fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a7bfaab15a34431960c07ff45dc77fc\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, petitions have been delivered to the Clerk for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022305d913157e4485aaaf0aa1035219464\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022305d913157e4485aaaf0aa1035219464\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EPetition of Groundswell NZ requesting that the House ask the Government to end the agricultural emissions pricing proposal\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Peter Marra requesting that the House lower the age of eligibility for the National Bowel Screening Programme to 45 and make it lower than 45 for anyone with a family history of bowel cancer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Katharine Moody requesting that the House regulate residential rent via a formula specified in the petition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002295caf72d7abd468f9e2dd0c547be70b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002295caf72d7abd468f9e2dd0c547be70b7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those petitions are referred to the Petitions Committee. Ministers have delivered reports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u002271eb178aa551436997f2423b828a2693\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271eb178aa551436997f2423b828a2693\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2021-22 annual reports for the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EAccreditation Council\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EBroadcasting Standards Authority\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EElectricity Authority\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ENetwork for Learning\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Film Commission\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ENg\u0101rimu VC and 28th (M\u0101ori) Battalion Memorial Scholarship Fund Board\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2022-23 statements of performance expectations for the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EBroadcasting Standards Authority\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ELaw Commission\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Film Commission\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2021-22 statement of performance expectations for the Human Rights Commission\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2022-26 statement of intent for the New Zealand Film Commission\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EThe Treasury: Wellbeing in Aotearoa New Zealand 2022.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002205ed1a78fe4f4b0e87d05eac476191f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205ed1a78fe4f4b0e87d05eac476191f0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those papers are published under the authority of the House. Select committee reports have been delivered for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1782f70b1614ba78dca7c2925806c34\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1782f70b1614ba78dca7c2925806c34\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReports of the Education and Workforce Committee on the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of Julia L\u00EA, and the\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of Julia Zhang and David Barker\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee on the Foreign Affairs (Consular Loans) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Governance and Administration Committee on the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Exemption for Race Meetings) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Health Committee on the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Econtinuation to 13 May 2023 of the COVID-19 Public Health Response Act 2020, and the\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ESmokefree Environments and Regulated Products (Smoked Tobacco) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Justice Committee on the Electoral Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Petitions Committee on the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of Aaron Cross, Aaron Hendry, Brian Borland, Chris Williams, Claire Dale, Greg Rzesniowiecki, H\u0101wea Flat School Board, Janaya Fowles, Open Forum for Health Information, Save Women\u2019s Sport Australasia, and Sona Kaur\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Regulations Review Committee on the Secondary Legislation Confirmation Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Transport Infrastructure Committee on the petition of Rosemary Penwarden.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba405fa2c93247779aff33b1b06d3202\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba405fa2c93247779aff33b1b06d3202\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bills are set down for second reading. No bills have been introduced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cf61f60f28114eae83bfeb4ff503c989\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226e1beecf31664985a86377434f126979\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d222b598a2954b1995397ddb08d6757d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00227f7e4869b02f4916a96ee1d168b77943\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f7e4869b02f4916a96ee1d168b77943\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What recent announcements has Pharmac advised him of relating to rare disorders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u00224612263b6d7c425cae9cf904763a5ca5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224612263b6d7c425cae9cf904763a5ca5\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to say that on Sunday, the national drug funding agency Pharmac announced they have initiated consultation on the funding of Trikafta for people aged six years and above. Trikafta is a treatment for cystic fibrosis, a health condition affecting the lungs. It\u2019s a condition that typically shortens a sufferer\u2019s life considerably. Trikafta is a breakthrough treatment which radically addresses the condition and extends life expectancy for cystic fibrosis sufferers by 27 years on average. One of the recommendations in the review of Pharmac published earlier this year was that Pharmac should be more proactive in addressing treatments for rare disorders. Consultation over a new treatment is a very important step in Pharmac\u2019s process\u2014it\u2019s how Pharmac checks that people who will get the most benefit from the medicines will be able to get access to them. Since 2017, this Government has increased the medicines budget by 43 percent, letting Pharmac make more than 200 additional medicines available for thousands of people. This means better access to medicines and treatments for New Zealanders, helping more people lead healthier lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022057b1400f6824f389ecf2375653acd91\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: What other drugs for rare disorders has Pharmac recently announced they will be funding?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022764cdcace02d4cf8b591956370be6c5b\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: In September this year, Pharmac announced that they are consulting over the spinal muscular atrophy medicine nusinersen, which is marketed as Spinraza, which would be the first medicine to be publicly funded for spinal muscular atrophy. Spinraza will make a substantial difference to the lives of the young people who receive it, and confirms the renewed attention Pharmac is giving to rare disorders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f15c16e329024ccbb37eafc32eac9b7f\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: How do these announcements fit with the Pharmac review?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fc8a41e183e4c93900d4ad5ab55146d\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: We committed to an independent review to look at how well Pharmac performs against its objectives and whether those objectives need changing. This Government agrees with the independent review panel that Pharmac must put much more emphasis on equity across communities, including for those who have rare diseases as well as their families. Pharmac\u2019s recent decisions to fund Spinraza and Trikafta\u2014the first medicines to be publicly funded for spinal muscular atrophy and the miracle drug for cystic fibrosis\u2014indicates it\u2019s shown a greater awareness of the need to carefully consider rare disorders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ead8d73583a4e69b3f59a5dea30ab8a\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: What other progress has been made on the Pharmac review recommendations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229eb23c85e9d9408e9a59598c9468d075\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: I have now received and accepted Pharmac\u2019s response to the review. In their response, Pharmac has identified five priorities to drive and guide their performance improvement in the years ahead. The priorities are, firstly, enhancing assessment methods; secondly, stronger partnerships and engagement with M\u0101ori; thirdly, strengthening their focus on equity; fourth, better incorporating consumer voices; and fifth, sharing more impactful information about what work is being done. We are already seeing changes to how Pharmac is conducting itself with the funding decisions that they\u2019ve recently announced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022698509c2031e45d5b7849a02d79fcbf5\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u00221fed6e170ced45328e741b5dd9d66a4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221fed6e170ced45328e741b5dd9d66a4c\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all her Government\u2019s statements and policies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u00224f7644ad2adc43589910838f06eb5d84\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f7644ad2adc43589910838f06eb5d84\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, particularly the Government\u2019s investments in infrastructure. Around 30,000 rural homes and communities will soon have access to faster, improved connectivity, with an expansion of the Rural Capacity Upgrade programme. Last week, 21 contracts signed by Crown Infrastructure Partners will accelerate upgrades to towers and broadband connections in areas with poor coverage, including the Far North, Gisborne, Manawat\u016B, Whanganui, Taranaki, Southland, and Waikato. This is something our rural communities have called for and it\u2019s something we as a Government have responded to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298887f92b5d74b01a0c5d2b34fb7b189\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: How does it feel to be the first Prime Minister in 168 years of Parliament to try and entrench her own policies without even knowing she was doing it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e78f2ca4fa245ec9102b0bd6ad61269\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Obviously, the House is well aware that entrenchment provisions will come back before the House today and will be removed. We have acknowledged that a mistake was made and we\u2019re fixing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212e446ec2d1d4d989c4a8de9baaaeffe\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Was it the Government\u2019s policy to entrench that water services entities must own water assets, and, if not, why did she vote for it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250afa4f59300425a811ccd80de694827\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: As I\u2019ve already said in the public domain on multiple occasions, the entrenchment provision and the fact that it was supported was a mistake and one that we are fixing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf7a58fc48d540d7b6c8872f5175e209\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Was it Government policy to entrench clause 116 of the Water Services Entities Bill, and, if not, why did her Minister of Local Government vote for it\u2014or was that just a mistake too?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ed01e4cceba40459d04503e957b7567\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I refer the member to my two prior answers. In answer to the first question, the member will, of course, be aware that the entrenchment provision was not part of the Government bill. It was a Supplementary Order Paper from another party, and that therefore answers his first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227267e8d47d1346408c4728c80f7251b4\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister accept that through her recklessness\u2014her Government trying to pass 24 bills in one week under urgency\u2014she created a major constitutional cluster and has shown no contrition for doing so?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229acc9ad7b14b4188a482e9c933f91cb0\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s claim is incorrect, first of all; and, second of all, the bill has not passed. And, finally, there have been a number of occasions in which Governments have extended sittings in order to debate legislation. That policy is not new.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264d13bf49fc54f559c5a980fe7aa6551\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: What does it say that no other Government in 168 years has been arrogant enough to try and entrench their own policies\u2014up with the voting right provisions that protect our most basic democratic rights?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca95a39a34c847a69d230acfa51a73f9\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I totally disagree with the member\u2019s characterisation of the issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022467913b3ecc642fb911f75faf9c3f5c9\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Why has the Government explicitly ruled out the COVID-19 royal commission inquiring into the private sector, saying, in its terms of reference, that the commission must not inquire into \u201Cthe operation of the private sector, except where the private sector delivers services integral to a pandemic response.\u201D, and who exactly does she think\u2019s going to pay for the $106 billion of extra net core Crown debt that her Government racked up over the last four years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022caa79c60d31542a69251c948dfe25d3d\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sure the member would agree that if you\u2019re looking into a Government response, one of the parameters should be looking at the Government response. We wanted to be clear that the inquiry wasn\u2019t about any other private sector\u2019s decision-making or their contribution to the pandemic. It needs to be focused on what we as a Government need to learn from the pandemic response so that we\u2019re best prepared for the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295bd36b72e4c4fd6b7f982ba0b68ddfe\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Prime Minister talked to any business people lately, or is she just not aware that the Government\u2019s response had some pretty big effects on the private sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022702d3807d3e64a80bb4e31e442b4d62f\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Despite the nature of the member\u2019s question, which I have to say is slightly hard, I\u2019m taking question time seriously; it would be good if he did too. In response to his question, economic and monetary policy are absolutely in scope. We absolutely agree that the COVID response had an impact on everyone\u2019s lives and livelihoods, including the operation of business. That is why it is included. I stand by our response, but so much so that I welcome an inquiry into it and a comparison against it, relative to other countries, because I absolutely believe in the outcomes, which are saving people\u2019s lives and our economy. We did an excellent job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc4386d775324dfd9e05d00a2bcc9ebb\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: How can she possibly claim that the royal commission\u2019s terms of reference include a comprehensive evaluation of the economic response when they are explicitly restricted to examining \u201Csettings required to support New Zealand\u2019s immediate economic response to a future pandemic;\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c255d9bfe45f479289c25c46b16b60ae\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Because the terms of reference say, and I quote, \u201CThe legislative, regulatory, and operational settings required to support New Zealand\u2019s immediate economic response to a future pandemic relating to fiscal and monetary policy responses, including co-ordination and preparedness to implement large-scale changes quickly and monitor their impacts:\u201D. It is on page 5 of the terms of reference. For the sake of clarity and to give due, the member may have only read the summary of the terms of reference. The full terms of reference state it very clearly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022881d40f676134309a6b51aca8bdb4f46\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does she have confidence in broadcasting Minister, Willie Jackson, after he made repeated suggestions that an interviewer in the chair should be responsible for his company\u2019s commercial and political decisions and vice versa on Q\u002BA on Sunday morning?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd071ee7c223486f8f3d47c57ab84ff0\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do. Secondly, I also support the legislation\u2019s very clear position on the editorial independence of our public service broadcasters. And, thirdly, Minister Jackson himself has said it wasn\u2019t his best interview.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229d60e35b2c6348acae4019eddf994c82\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Housing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022 data-id=\u00224c886d23f8aa47b1994ac76e7d6204a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c886d23f8aa47b1994ac76e7d6204a5\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing: What progress has the Government made in delivering public housing? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8f2e3f6a21f415eac61ffd4050e6352\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8f2e3f6a21f415eac61ffd4050e6352\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E We are rebuilding public housing in New Zealand by building more public housing, renewing our existing housing stock faster than any Government since the 1970s. Since we\u2019ve come into Government, we have now added 10,763 public homes and delivered over 4,000 new transitional homes. K\u0101inga Ora has delivered 9,133 new warm, dry public houses, with 743, or 77 percent, being new builds, and 11.5 percent of the current public housing stock\u2014or over one in nine of our current public homes\u2014has been delivered during our term in Government. But we know we cannot do it alone, and this is why we have also been working closely with community housing providers (CHPs) to deliver public housing places, too. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abea240e9a454770ad63fc091edc0a33\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: What contribution have community housing providers made to the public housing programme? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264f55227f64a445f93d245ef35a051e1\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: There are now 11,785 public housing places provided by our community housing providers. This has more than doubled since 2017, when there were less than 5,000 places provided by community housing providers. Community housing providers bring strong community connections, knowledge, and expertise in delivering housing for vulnerable New Zealanders, but, of course, it requires the Government to partner with them and deliver the funding for income-related rent subsidies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc644332759340589ca72a041c9e78bb\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: How has the Government supported community housing providers? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220a73ec579634e9484e60917692ec2ae\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Community housing provider stock, as I said, has more than doubled since October 2017 as a result of our Government\u2019s record investment in housing. This has been possible through the Government significantly increasing the funding available to our community housing providers through consistent recommitments in successive Budgets. In the financial year ended June 2017, total funding for CHPs was just $95 million. As of June 2022, the annual figure was $535 million in operational funding for our CHPs\u2014an increase of 463 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b182c1f8290149e58967f9f1f52ea729\u0022\u003EAngie Warren-Clark\u003C/span\u003E: What notable community housing provider - led public housing projects has the Government supported? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224eda8177a11f41b9b55e50994069b673\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: The Government supported Auckland City Mission to open their HomeGround facility, the largest project that they have ever undertaken. HomeGround is an 80-unit housing and social services facility that incorporates a detox facility, a medical centre, and education services. The whole-of-life funding the Government is putting into HomeGround is expected to total $114 million. CHP housing delivery is not just happening in our city centres. In the past few years, because of changes we have made to operational funding, we are now seeing community houses being delivered outside of our cities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022891dc69622364363b66d4535e1fc803f\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u002218dd387834984675b756655c4da4a113\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218dd387834984675b756655c4da4a113\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER LUXON (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all her Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u0022437282115ed24d2688b058245b19515c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022437282115ed24d2688b058245b19515c\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, particularly this Government\u2019s decision to increase the medicines budget by 43 percent since we took office, enabling Pharmac to make more than 200 medicines available for thousands of people. This funding has enabled Pharmac to reach a provisional agreement with medicines supplier Vertex to fund Trikafta for people with cystic fibrosis who are aged six and over and who meet eligibility criteria. Funding of Trikafta is proposed to start from 1 April next year. It shows what a difference the Government\u2019s budget boost is making. When we came into Government, the medicines budget, like other parts of the health system, had been starved of investment despite record population growth. In 2020, we promised we\u2019d increase Pharmac\u2019s budget by $200 million over four years. We\u2019ve not only kept that promise but put in an additional $71 million more this year with another $120 million boost next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263bb4879079d4c279fdc47612a89aa8a\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Why did she claim that Radio New Zealand would collapse if it\u2019s not merged with TVNZ, when Radio New Zealand is 100 percent funded by taxpayers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229357b7c66c5144158c25f2bf282910ae\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: My reference was not only to the funding of TVNZ and RNZ, but the general issue of listenership and viewership. We know that since 2014, for instance, daily audience share for television has dropped from 83 percent to 56 percent. We know for radio it\u2019s dropped from 67 percent to 47 percent. This is a changing environment. Public service broadcasting is important to New Zealanders; no matter what, we need to change the way that we are funding these services because, particularly for TVNZ, their revenue is declining.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a1d3ce28a3a4d5f8009804033dee5c1\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Is she aware that Radio New Zealand\u2019s revenue has nothing to do with how many listeners it has?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022364a542c48a7419cace069c907e77a33\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: And nor are the reforms solely about revenue source. It\u2019s also about lifting and making sure that listeners are able to access public service broadcasting across multiple platforms. One of the concerns I have in this debate is this is actually one of the first times that the member\u2019s acknowledging that taxpayer money already goes into public service broadcasting. The issue is that without recognising that the environment they\u2019re in is changing, we will keep having to increase the amount that goes in because revenue is declining for TVNZ. Things need to change.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294a1ff2a57e94c7ea89e302e5bb33dd9\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: What is her response to Stuff political editor Luke Malpass, who said of the merger, \u201CIt has no clear rationale, no clear plan, and no obvious problem it is willing to fix.\u201D And, to be honest, isn\u2019t this merger just an ideological solution in search of a problem?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e56d9623ae2348fc8c4bbb4a1f174941\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: As the business case has demonstrated, which was produced by Deloitte, change is required. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022555b4c39439d49a39bac68c6bb7f94b3\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Why did broadcasting Minister, Willie Jackson, criticise a TVNZ journalist, saying \u201CI am very disappointed in you.\u201D, and isn\u2019t she concerned that he made these threatening statements during an interview about editorial independence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294f2283f48924acbbfdef910cdea733e\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I refer the member to my answers earlier on in question time. The editorial independence is safeguarded in the legislation itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e3b20ae63cc47daac45d74080ecea7a\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Does she have confidence in her Minister of Broadcasting, Willie Jackson, when he has been unable to explain why this merger is happening and clearly has no understanding of the concept of editorial independence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd9a708138f84324a0f7e7edcadc83fc\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022494b42ffdc464a738d0ea38a068a1ca3\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Why, as Prime Minister, is she continuing to support a Minister who is so grossly incompetent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f52b0d538374c85b962f9c63c435cf7\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I totally disagree with the member\u2019s assertion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b49f52ce97bd47a6b613bf4684c31265\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: What does it say about her leadership that she is willing to tolerate this level of incompetence from her Ministers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc7adfb445474f88a693114aec52ef72\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I again reject the assertion by the member. The member for broadcasting has direct experience from working in the broadcasting industry. He knows all too well that the environment our broadcasters are operating is declining. The numbers of journalists in this country has halved. New Zealanders say misinformation is one of their biggest concerns; we have just seen, in a pandemic, how important it is that they were able to access information they trust and to access their own stories. The fact is, taxpayers already fund public service broadcasting. We need to make sure that that money is well invested.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c1f51c2d5dd840829bff354c18a85df6\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Police\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u002240d9958f0f2945388b498644d4e3f43e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240d9958f0f2945388b498644d4e3f43e\u0022\u003EGINNY ANDERSEN (Labour\u2014Hutt South)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: What recent announcements has he made on supporting small businesses to tackle retail crime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u002239b4dff06af249168b658be4f4d8f278\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239b4dff06af249168b658be4f4d8f278\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E Last week, the Prime Minister and I announced an extended package of measures to combat retail crime, with new initiatives to partner with small businesses and local councils. While overall youth crime is now much lower than in the past, the risks and harm from ram raids and other retail crime is concerning communities and creating victims. Shop owners and workers feel targeted, and the Government recognises that. The range of initiatives that we announced last week make the most significant direct support crime prevention financial package in recent memory, and it backs up the work that the police have been doing through supporting crime prevention measures and undertaking other measures to help business owners stay safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022296545d5076d4066839325db25de941b\u0022\u003EGinny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: What further details are available on these packages?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f4a71c3966f48039f0c448416a3087e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The measures that we announced last week include a new fog cannon subsidy scheme where the Government will provide $4,000 to small shops and dairies in New Zealand who want to have a fog cannon installed; a new $4 million fund to support local councils in Auckland, Hamilton, and the Bay of Plenty with crime prevention programmes; and extending the eligibility of the existing retail crime prevention fund.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec9e10df9b7f433292579c3e42948737\u0022\u003EGinny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: What changes will be made to the retail crime prevention fund?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022641c588e87d34dd5a240c9923df89b02\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The retail crime prevention fund was set up for small shops and dairies earlier on this year as offending shifted to ram raiding. Last week\u2019s announcement has seen the expansion of its eligibility to small businesses who experience an aggravated robbery, including those committed in the past 12 months. Police are already making good progress on the number of stores accessing the fund. More than 100 shops now have installations approved, and there are 431 security measures under way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e756414688f642e4bbbdfa1a3b44f87f\u0022\u003EGinny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: What work is the Government doing alongside of local government to help support small-business owners?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d3f83e6ebd44d5e80069828c822f3e6\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: As mentioned, the $4 million has been targeted to support local councils with local crime prevention measures. This will be made up of $2 million for the Auckland Council, $1 million for the Hamilton City Council, and $1 million for the councils in the Bay of Plenty, which will be matched on a dollar-for-dollar basis by those councils. These partnerships will be focused on crime prevention through environmental design measures in geographic areas where small retailers are commonly targeted, and that can include things like street lighting, CCTV cameras, and planter boxes. Conversations have already taken place between police and Government officials and the Auckland Council, Hamilton City Council, and the Bay of Plenty councils to identify opportunities that can get started soon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fa64091d114c481f9ef15f8e37959d7e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u002267d9ce91be304a14888c8226f0b98a5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267d9ce91be304a14888c8226f0b98a5c\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER LUXON (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by her statement about entrenching a provision of the Water Services Entities Bill that \u201Cwe accept a mistake here has been made\u201D; if so, when did she realise it was a mistake?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u0022a02574ae3023415ca0cc8c0cb9e3a067\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a02574ae3023415ca0cc8c0cb9e3a067\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I stand by my statement. In answer to the second part of the member\u2019s question, Cabinet determined it would resolve the issue at the first Cabinet meeting that was held after the committee of the whole House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223301e0ca3335472085aa4c2572f94844\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: When was she first made aware that her Government was supporting a provision to entrench parts of the three waters legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217a63ace58534428b4aa17b45c866dfc\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: As I believe I\u2019ve already referred to in the public domain, I was, obviously, made aware after the vote was taken. What I would also state is that I also stand by, however, our Government\u2019s position that the privatisation of water assets is something that we are strongly opposed to. Regardless of the debate that\u2019s currently being had about our mechanism of entrenchment provisions, I would encourage the member to give due consideration to the letter that we have issued him today seeking for the National Party\u2019s commitment to not privatise these incredibly important assets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b90ce63858dc4ad892f0493acc2d8376\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Why, as the Prime Minister and chair of Cabinet, was the embedding of an entrenchment clause in a deeply unpopular piece of legislation \u201CNot something I would necessarily be aware of.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bbba5f2a2b24034a05c36ed06f6e42c\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: The member needs to put the context around that quote\u2014I was asked whether or not I had seen the Supplementary Order Paper (SOP). I would ask the member whether or not every single amendment to every single bill that is put up by the Opposition or the Greens or by ACT is something that is routinely examined. I did not see the SOP, but nor would I expect to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270cabd40b8b74119837551901edaa76f\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Is it acceptable that neither Minister Mahuta nor any other Minister failed to tell her about the entrenchment provision before her Government passed it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022525b7ab473144435b9b04a37c2092330\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I refer to every public statement that I\u2019ve made on this matter regarding the consideration of entrenchment, and then I come back to, ultimately, the House coming back today to consider the issue. We agree it is a mistake and it will be removed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6caf4e8936e4bfea39a38d62fec4090\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Does she think it\u2019s appropriate to force through both a major confiscation of local water assets and significant changes to our constitutional conventions under urgency?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd61f367eb02457e983d9f97e563b7ed\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I totally disagree with the characterisation of that question. It is utterly factually wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef148766568a4a6581114502b47350bc\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Was her Government\u2019s attempt to entrench part of her unpopular three waters reforms a sign of incompetence or arrogance, or both?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c10fe51af3c4324bcf50da2972bcd22\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Again, I also disagree with the characterisation; the entrenchment provision related only to the privatisation of assets. On the principle of the privatisation of assets, we are totally opposed. My question is: is the National Party?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022419344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229df7cf4fb904433bb15f8f0a26a7cdc1\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Prime Minister demand the Opposition rule out privatisation, when her own Government is taking the assets off democratically elected councils who had ratepayers pay for them, and putting them into new entities that will not be fully democratically run?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243e344ccd07946e4ac6cba39c2f39b13\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: The new entities are public shareholdings of council representatives. It is being held by local communities. We have an illustration of the issue with this entire debate: the member\u2019s mischaracterisation of what is ultimately a bill to ensure public ownership and management of water entities. The member needs to be honest. The way that he is portraying this bill is wrong, dishonest, and factually incorrect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ea75e265cc54a72bbc965f338f0564d\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Mr Speaker, as you well know and the Prime Minister well knows, to call another member dishonest is unparliamentary. She knew the rules, she did it, and she should be asked to withdraw and apologise. And it includes calling another member\u2019s actions in the House dishonest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc37397c8529468a8f2c9ae9673de502\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order. Firstly, the Prime Minister said that making a statement like that would be dishonest. It wasn\u2019t a direct comment on a member, to take on Mr Seymour\u2019s point of order. My second point is that almost all\u2014I think I\u2019ll be correct\u2014of the Opposition\u2019s supplementary questions today have contained assertions, some of which arguably are outside of the Standing Orders in terms of the words that we use, let alone being outside of the Standing Orders around oral questions, in terms of the content of them\u2014Standing Orders 395, 396, 397. So, unfortunately, we are in a position where there\u2019s been, in my opinion, a response when the Prime Minister has got up today several times to say that she disagrees with the contents of a question because those questions have contained assertions. That seems to be how it goes, which way it will go both ways.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f7bdf77ee0444c3b2bda5e61e60f691\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you to the Deputy Prime Minister. That is correct. I counted three assertions in that supplementary. I listened\u2014I\u2019ve been listening very carefully to all the answers, as I thought to myself, sooner or later someone\u2019s going to complain. And today is that day. The fact of the matter is, I\u2019m quite happy\u2014as I have stated in this debating chamber at question time before\u2014to rule questions that are significantly out of order to be out of order. That one was; I could have easily ruled it out. I allowed it to be asked on the basis that the member knew and understood the likely response. Are there any further supplementaries on this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bae97ca85b25468db8d2da464a268c88\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Forestry\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u0022a68e2291675247458e2283dc44741aaa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a68e2291675247458e2283dc44741aaa\u0022\u003EJO LUXTON (Labour\u2014Rangitata)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Forestry: What announcements has he made on transforming the forestry sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u002245d62ad4ddd0483eb236e06799928048\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245d62ad4ddd0483eb236e06799928048\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH (Minister of Forestry):\u003C/span\u003E Last week at the Forestry Hub at national Fieldays, I launched the Forestry and Wood Processing Industry Transformation Plan, which provides a detailed road map to increase wood processing in New Zealand and grow a low-carbon, high-value industry. The Government has worked closely with the industry to develop the industry transformation plan that will both boost the value of our forestry sector and futureproof it to provide greater economic security for all New Zealanders through good times and bad.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224425638c5aff401494f3101a0ee5f6ce\u0022\u003EJo Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: How will increasing onshore processing boost New Zealand\u2019s economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022897732ac6c00487d8cdfc8d46ae7745e\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealand is currently the world\u2019s largest softwood log exporter. Today, roughly 60 percent of our harvest is exported as logs to a small number of markets. We want to create a future for the forestry industry that doesn\u2019t just rely on exporting logs but one that opens up domestic opportunities. More processing in New Zealand will create jobs, drive growth, and provide more wood residues to support the growing bioeconomy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df53b914b0f8472d830203055f15b15c\u0022\u003EJo Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: How will this transformation plan help drive down emissions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e60690aa7ab3498faeb7169429938fc2\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: The first goal of the industry transformation plan is to reduce carbon emissions by 6.9 million tonnes by 2030 and by 54 million tonnes by 2050. This will be achieved through, for example, using wood fibre to help decarbonise transport and process heat and using wood products to replace high-emissions materials in construction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be1a54f9582d44c79be126117efbad6a\u0022\u003EJo Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: What other investment has the Government made to support the forestry sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1035d5e1e7c467c80efb3d5fd390ee3\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: The Government supported the forestry sector with $385 million in Budget 2022 to help transform the sector. This includes support to increase woody biomass supplies, to replace coal, to develop long-term carbon sinks, and to create a resilient and diverse sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002220d06e03e9d948bcb8b6e1c37c5986a1\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u00220fdd63b8d2644b4bb7198db704d6d7a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220fdd63b8d2644b4bb7198db704d6d7a5\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he agree with the Reserve Bank that \u201Cworker shortages are holding the economy back and increasing inflation\u201D, and what steps, if any, will the Government now take to lessen the risk of economic recession next year, as outlined in the Reserve Bank\u2019s November Monetary Policy Statement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00229d8d0b59a46946ecb3cab1d338226f7e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d8d0b59a46946ecb3cab1d338226f7e\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E In answer to the first part of the question, with more New Zealanders in work now than ever before and the highest participation rate on record, I do agree that global worker shortages are contributing to worker shortages here as businesses look to hire more employees due to strong profits and the resilient economy. That\u2019s why, under the immigration rebalance, Immigration New Zealand has given approval for 90,000 positions under the accredited employer work visa as well as more than 39,000 working holidaymakers. In answer to the second part of the question, I\u2019m sure the member will be aware that immigration on its own is not the only answer to growing the economy. The Government continues to take steps to invest in our infrastructure, provide targeted support to New Zealanders on low and middle incomes, and continue to invest in quality public services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205af667352d946e18527fcab917e329d\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with economist Brad Olsen that the Reserve Bank is \u201Cquite clearly saying \u2026 that the Government is contributing to inflation, or certainly not helping the case to get it under control\u201D, and does he take any responsibility for the worsening cost of living crisis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c4728d9520c46468d6129c9c18cf241\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, when the Reserve Bank spoke last week at the release of their Monetary Policy Statement, they, among other things, indicated, as I have in this House before, that the overall direction of Government spending continues to track down and, in fact, the fiscal impulse is contractionary over the forecast period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb13a6a957d24181bc0337227aa295e5\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his commitment to starting a more comprehensive evaluation of the economic response to COVID-19, and how will the royal commission do that when its terms of reference do not include any assessment of the impact economic decision-making has had on today\u2019s cost of living crisis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022951622a6e685447cab2a29d3e58ea944\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not 100 percent sure how that relates to the primary question, but, in answer to that, the member has already heard from the Prime Minister, quoting the part of the terms of reference that includes fiscal and monetary policy responses and the overall economic policy response. The purpose is to learn the lessons of this pandemic and be able to apply them to any future one; that absolutely includes fiscal and monetary policy responses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba1afee8879741cd838a889cb12717bf\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Why was he unable to name a single example of where he has reined in Government spending, on Newshub Nation last weekend, despite being asked multiple times, and would he like to use this opportunity to give one specific example?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b248336d10554d0ba9362865d4b31f54\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s interesting because the question actually related to whether or not I agreed with all of the knee-jerk responses that the National Party had put in place. Because if, as a Government, we were being irresponsible and we hadn\u2019t planned for the fact that there would be a global economic slowdown, the member might have a point. I invite the member to think about what would have happened to the New Zealand economy had we taken her advice and her leader\u2019s advice and done tax cuts in the May Budget. If we\u2019d done that, the New Zealand economy would be in a far, far worse position than it is now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d86391e86ef34e02b452a900ea73ca54\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: How can New Zealanders have any hope for the future when his Government has totally failed to get the cost of living crisis under control and they are now staring down a recession next year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aed15cf0cf944924ac38664b8b219c5a\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve got enormous hope for the future of New Zealand, because I see New Zealanders every single day working hard, lifting their skills, innovating, exporting. The member really just does need to look at how hard New Zealanders have worked, have a bit of faith in them. On this side of the House, we do and we know New Zealanders know they\u2019ve got a Government that backs them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002261ceb89f1bbd4798afad9c8a166f08e7\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Commerce and Consumer Affairs\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022 data-id=\u00225b731a32a8ac49388d663c044d56d0db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b731a32a8ac49388d663c044d56d0db\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE (Labour\u2014Hamilton East)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs: What recent reports has he seen regarding competition for residential building supplies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022e6efff03da0344ecae2abf018bb02696\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e6efff03da0344ecae2abf018bb02696\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Today, the Minister for Building and Construction, the Hon Dr Megan Woods, and I were delighted to receive the Commerce Commission\u2019s final report on the building supplies market study. The commission\u2019s report found two key factors negatively impact competition in this crucial sector: incentives that favour familiar building products in the building regulatory system, and quantity-forcing rebates. These things mean it\u2019s harder for alternative products that offer consumers a keener price or more choice to get into, or expand in, the market. We welcome these findings, and we\u2019ll consider the recommendations to understand what changes are necessary to help increase competition and, ultimately, bring down costs to consumers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022189de88efa2a493c95e90d542b3c54c5\u0022\u003EJamie Strange\u003C/span\u003E: How will the recommendations make a difference for everyday Kiwis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6fa2c0b82e24f56a069fc1a965ea9bc\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: We know that market studies improve competition, and competition improves prices. Low levels of competition hurt everyday New Zealanders across the board\u2014at the pump and at the checkout. With building supplies, we pay higher prices because of a lack of competition. The commission has suggested changes, including to the current regulatory settings, to improve competition among building suppliers. These changes are expected to support better prices, quality, range, and innovation for New Zealanders over time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208c75454c8a74a0bb6bc8413653b5881\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Name just one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9747c9c208249f6be0b52c133812eca\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Take a question, Mr Brownlee\u2014take a question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c89e11b905a44821b13988acf518d28b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c79ddfb6ac248a4a5107f7b43ca988c\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Responding to an interjection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a01f3f0750d42e2963bdad85aa738bd\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d81e6c3b7b04476895069a1963de764\u0022\u003EJamie Strange\u003C/span\u003E: What other initiatives did the Commerce Commission highlight as a way to improve competition for building supplies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e99f66cab28748f5b9174c64f180becf\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m pleased to see the Commerce Commission noted the actions taken by the Government to alleviate the plasterboard shortage earlier this year. This includes the ministerial plasterboard taskforce, set up by the building and construction Minister, Dr Megan Woods, and guidance to the sector on how to substitute plasterboard. Taken together, these actions resulted in more plasterboard being in the market. The commission\u2019s view is that the measures could be considered for a wider range of key building supplies to better support competition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d71d1cdf54c4ca5b749aefccb11c4b4\u0022\u003EJamie Strange\u003C/span\u003E: What reaction has he seen in response to the report?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245e6823cbdb047979867d962eda2852a\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: More good news: I\u2019m pleased to see there\u2019s already been some preliminary moves to improve competition by dominant players in the building-supplies market. Winstone Wallboards announced just this morning that it will discontinue the use of quantity-forcing rebates. It\u2019s hard not to see this as a response to a key recommendation in the Commerce Commission\u2019s report. I think the House can see there is real merit in putting the spotlight on a sector through a market study process. While the Government immediately starts work to explore the recommendations, there\u2019s nothing stopping market players from making moves, right now, that will improve competition in the market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225c3ed56a5dd347fbae392068d4ade366\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022a816ec3ad59840f49091cda76a74fe3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a816ec3ad59840f49091cda76a74fe3f\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. I\u2019d like to raise a matter at the first possible instance. On question No. 6, the finance Minister took a point of order and stated that the Prime Minister had not directly accused me of dishonesty, but only proposed a hypothetical circumstance where I might be. Since then, I\u2019ve had the video transcript sent through to me, and it says that she said, \u201CThe way he is portraying this bill is wrong, dishonest, and factually incorrect.\u201D, after saying, \u201CThe member needs to be honest.\u201D The Prime Minister did accuse me of dishonesty. That is unparliamentary, and I would put it that the finance Minister misled the House when he said that she didn\u2019t. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022388a043abf594ffa94c9413d1d8644e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022388a043abf594ffa94c9413d1d8644e4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have made a ruling. The way to question the Speaker\u2019s ruling is not to take another point of order like you have just done, so that is out of order. Now\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ac4d57326aa41289a119b247d5e8190\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: No, it\u2019s not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257cd94a3461b46cc842a4d4a3549b1e3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is. I made a ruling based on what I heard, without the benefit of going back and having a look at a Hansard\u2014in real time\u2014and I made my ruling accordingly. Now, there are a number of ways you can question the Speaker\u2019s ruling. Bringing it up now is not the way to do it. There is a correct procedure to do it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022e235819df16d4714935902e39470224c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e235819df16d4714935902e39470224c\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Well, a fresh point of order, Mr Speaker. I was not questioning your ruling. I was raising a fresh point of order in relation to the finance Minister and his claim, which is now demonstrably untrue. That\u2019s the point of order I am raising now. It in no way questions your ruling. However, I would ask you to use Speaker Wall\u2019s ruling at 45/2, which says, \u201CThe offence of calling another member a liar, or implying that another member of the House is a liar,\u201D is an injustice to the whole House. It\u2019s a very serious matter that can\u2019t be brushed off by saying it was provoked. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002283705022547b4a0187ffe8fea7032363\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283705022547b4a0187ffe8fea7032363\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And, again, this is not the correct way of addressing it. You can address it by making, in writing, a matter of privilege. That is the correct way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cf19345e186247f0bd6ce60f0a5268a2\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Immigration\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022f67fd0270dc146cbb79bcadc89e492b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f67fd0270dc146cbb79bcadc89e492b8\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Immigration: Does he consider that current immigration policies are fair and equitable towards migrant families?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c035ac5e01344352872ecad6292f6a3b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c035ac5e01344352872ecad6292f6a3b\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I do, and, in particular, I\u2019m pleased recently with the progress that we have made on 2021 Resident Visa which, according to the most recent information, has provided 121,392 people with residency in New Zealand; providing much-needed certainty for those people and their families who are contributing to our country. I\u2019m also very pleased that the first draw under the parent category occurred on 14 November, and that will potentially provide a pathway for up to 600 parents to be reunited with their families through that pathway here in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9a3a94835f74f919d9e7d3ad19122d5\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: What feedback has he received from stakeholders regarding the planned removal of automatic working rights from most partners of temporary visa holders, as mentioned in his press release yesterday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a94592800714bd19912e802c553fd30\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: The proposed changes that I put a press release out about yesterday relate to the work rights for partners\u2014it is important to clarify that the Government has, at all points, proposed to retain working rights for partners, but potentially to change them from being open work rights to work rights that are obtained through the Accredited Employer Work Visa scheme. That has been an important change that was put in place in order to ensure that partners had the protection of working for an accredited employer; that we reduced instances of exploitation; and that we ensure that those people would be paid a fair rate, which is something that we can ensure through the Accredited Employer Work Visa scheme. Some of the concerns and feedback that we received related to whether that had got the balance right in terms of ensuring that partners would have the ability to independently and easily seek work on their own terms\u2014that is the feedback that I have taken on board, and that\u2019s why we\u2019re just taking a little bit more time to streamline and make sure we get that policy right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022029723c19f8e43a5a03141feea036d64\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Dhilum Nightingale\u2014a community lawyer who works with migrant survivors of domestic violence\u2014who called these changes patriarchal and said at a seminar that \u201CThis new policy is not supportive, in my view, of the realities, and once again allows an abuser to control a victim\u2019s immigration status\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254ddc08513f8453eb2f19943e9909dd8\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: No, I don\u2019t agree with that statement\u2014in the first instance, I note that in a relatively broad-brush way, it assumes who is the primary visa holder and who is the partner, and that can\u2019t always be assumed. Secondly, what I would note is that in taking a bit more time to work through this change, we are going to make sure that we do address any concerns of that nature. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022373436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022225a5478bb3c4f4cad0c68478f3bca13\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: How many, if any, front-line organisations working with migrant survivors of family violence were consulted prior to the decision to remove the automatic working rights of most partners of temporary work visa holders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210330774e0b04ed28d9a6749f354970b\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: If I can just re-affirm that the Government at no point has proposed to take away work rights for partners. There has been a proposal to change them to an Accredited Employer Work Visa pathway, which will ensure in some respects greater protections for those people. What I can confirm to the member is that I do consult widely\u2014and discuss widely with a range of groups\u2014immigration policy as it is being developed. This is a topic which has been raised with me by a number of those groups in recent weeks. For example, I\u2019ve met with the immigration reference group which has a wide variety of stakeholders\u2014including those who work with these groups and communities, and Community Law Centres Aotearoa, and I\u2019ll continue to work with those groups as I refine this policy and other settings within the immigration system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022738495c598ae41e99a62e8e70b12af5e\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: How many organisations working with migrant survivors of family violence were consulted when the immigration rebalance was being produced?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022648554e933764993b7813c14eef9a516\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a very, very specific question which the member would need to provide to me and I would be able to\u2014through checking through the records\u2014give a more accurate answer, but what I can confirm to him is that I regularly meet with immigration sector stakeholders, including those groups who work with vulnerable migrant communities, and I\u2019ve done so as I\u2019ve been considering this issue. And one of the things\u2014if the Opposition will just pause for a moment\u2014that I would like to reiterate is that one of the ways in which we do take forward immigration policy is to listen, and what we\u2019ve done this week has been to listen to some of those views that have come forward; and we\u2019ve said we\u2019ll spend a few more months taking that on board to make sure that the policy is right. I recognise that the National Party, in their supreme arrogance, can\u2019t understand that, but that\u2019s the way that we develop policy on this side of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a493e0fd32864f5a91072dd3d16e7fac\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Will he commit to extensively seeking and considering feedback from front-line advocates working with migrant survivors of family violence and unions before taking any decision to go ahead with the changes to the rights of partners of temporary visa holders; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ba3a2efafad45239b53167e50fb53cf\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: As per answers to previous questions, what I announced yesterday is that we have been listening to groups within the sector, and that is why in fact we have said we\u2019ll take a few more months to refine and streamline this policy, to make sure that those concerns are taken into account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b59a3820ae6249a1bac77fb2a509ae0e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Broadcasting and Media\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca38fd3455ec4b7ead47a55867b30fdc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca38fd3455ec4b7ead47a55867b30fdc\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Broadcasting and Media: Does he stand by all the Government\u2019s views and actions regarding Aotearoa New Zealand Public Media?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u0022cdbfb332a8c14a19b2d4a0bdd44b7ebc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cdbfb332a8c14a19b2d4a0bdd44b7ebc\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Minister for Broadcasting and Media):\u003C/span\u003E Absolutely. In particular, I would point the member to the Prime Minister\u2019s comments yesterday that the reforms are about valuing and protecting public media in New Zealand, giving it the best possible chance of thriving, and ensuring that all New Zealanders\u2014young and old\u2014can continue to access trusted news and information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e62c4a6acc15456fb0cf70be8cc254e4\u0022\u003EMelissa Lee\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Minister expect New Zealanders to have confidence he will not interfere in the editorial independence of Aotearoa New Zealand Public Media (ANZPM) when, according to Thomas Coughlan, \u201CJackson\u2019s repeated bizarre insinuations about editorial independence left viewers none the wiser on this point and raised serious questions about whether he had the capability to be the Minister of the entity he is so keen on creating.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ff2580db5c8446bb0e3543aedf7291d\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: I can\u2019t make this any clearer: editorial independence is so vital. It\u2019s protected specifically in the legislation\u2014clause 15(3). The Government\u2019s intent is that ANZPM should have extremely strong protections in relation to its editorial independence. If that member understands the importance of editorial independence, she will understand that it\u2019s all about context sometimes\u2014and I\u2019ve already said that it was a misstep in the interview, and I stand by that. Everyone makes mistakes, even Mr Luxon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b4f839160db433899c32800ab880275\u0022\u003EMelissa Lee\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister breached section 28(1)(c) of the Television New Zealand Act of 2003 that states, \u201CNo shareholding Minister \u2026 may give a direction to TVNZ \u2026 or [any] employee of TVNZ \u2026 in respect of the gathering or presentation of news or the preparation or presentation of any current affairs programme or content.\u201D in respect of his TVNZ Q\u002BA interview criticisms on 4 December 2022; and, regardless, how did the Minister\u2019s comment improve trust in ANZPM?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9123ce3216b401b8cb1c97f75ec1ca3\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1d23d0b47cd447b8c708ac72599ea0b\u0022\u003EMelissa Lee\u003C/span\u003E: Who is correct: the Prime Minister, who just told the House that TVNZ revenue is falling, or public records, which shows the TVNZ revenue has increased by \u201Crecord\u201D levels this year despite COVID restrictions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226110007fa1154a0d89236feac5aa0dc0\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister is 100 percent correct. For the sake of the member opposite, can I refer her to Television New Zealand\u2019s own statement of intent, where in their own words, they acknowledge declining revenue as a major risk. The undeniable fact is that linear advertising revenue has been declining globally for the last 10 years. Over the last decade, TVNZ\u2019s operating revenue has steadily declined. In 2008, they made over $390 million; in 2020, it was $310 million. That makes the Prime Minister, for the member, 100 percent correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257c3d7da343b41b9837e379c03c626e7\u0022\u003EMelissa Lee\u003C/span\u003E: What, if anything, does the Minister take from the fact that only 22 percent of New Zealanders are in favour of his ANZPM plans and that \u201CNew Zealanders are overwhelmingly opposed to the Government\u2019s plan to merge TVNZ and RNZ.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e0a6f8db13b46babe904ac5db2300a6\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: That was a Taxpayers\u2019 Union poll. I take comfort in the fact that there were 900 submitters and 60 to 70 percent of them support the merger.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4589d7328f243b5bf69d9b043b357fa\u0022\u003EMelissa Lee\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I seek leave to table a series of minutes of the Strong Public Media establishment board for the new public media entity ANZPM, released to my office under the Official Information Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222647d9c0bc264b19a08688b47fd2f685\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There appears to be none; it can be tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227034ff19fb10402d9944a73afa7cd810\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Local Government\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00223bb0844c6e094b9caa03f422861ca487\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223bb0844c6e094b9caa03f422861ca487\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Local Government: Does she stand by her statement on entrenching a provision of the Water Services Entities Bill, \u201CWe know that while this particular SOP may not pass the constitutional threshold, there is a moral obligation of people who believe that privatisation should not occur to support that particular SOP\u201D, and does she stand by all her statements on entrenchment provisions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u0022433e380fac26453aa800f2cba768bc53\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022433e380fac26453aa800f2cba768bc53\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. Ensuring continued public ownership of New Zealand\u2019s water services infrastructure has been a bottom line for this Government in the development of the new water services delivery system. Let me be clear: it was a mistake to use entrenchment for that purpose, and we\u2019ll fix it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c8c25331ac44b3681f79fdd99521c6f\u0022\u003ESimon Watts\u003C/span\u003E: Did she inform the Prime Minister about Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 285, in the name of the Hon Eugenie Sage, before it was voted on; if so, when?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb4792b7538d4641a5aba162c8a7ad89\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows that the SOP was tabled in the House during the committee of the whole House debate, so we were made aware of the details of the SOP at the same time he was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f36bbfaf4e4c443999b3e094d4538b3d\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. That was not the question, and the answer went no way to addressing the question. The question was: did she inform the Prime Minister, in words to that effect, and, if so, when?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5f9ec1a9eb84d3ca43dbcd35c8b914a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll ask the member to\u2014in my mind, it was very, very close to being addressed, but I\u2019ll get the member to ask it again, and I\u2019ll listen to the answer again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e217281b075a4df6b9442092e7a246ee\u0022\u003ESimon Watts\u003C/span\u003E: Did she inform the Prime Minister about Supplementary Order Paper 285, in the name of the Hon Eugenie Sage, before it was voted on; if so, when?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ea03e24fd884d0283b65c70a9f3d390\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows that the SOP was tabled in the House during the committee of the whole House debate. We were made aware of the details of the SOP at the same time as he was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dc0cef82d0446acb8fa0a08c1b0681b\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. It\u2019s the same point. It\u2019s a really, really clear, specific, and, I would say, actually important question, and the Minister is not addressing it\u2014she\u2019s not answering it and not addressing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aba3e0bb09c84e98979b2e04afb7d2f7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you can\u2019t expect to have an explicit answer to any question. Still, in my mind, it is addressed. The member has other supplementaries that he can further ask. I mean, the answer is that it was available to all members at the same time. That is addressing the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f9c99297a884d17bcf276e38f00eccf\u0022\u003ESimon Watts\u003C/span\u003E: Does she stand by the statement, given in her name by a spokesperson, that the entrenchment Supplementary Order Paper was discussed at Labour\u2019s caucus, and, if so, how does she reconcile that statement with the Prime Minister, who said it was \u201CNot something I\u2019d necessarily be aware of\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7196c14c24b4ebdbdc0afd1d76f3ec9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister doesn\u2019t have ministerial responsibilities for discussions at their caucus. I\u2019m going to give the member an opportunity to reword the question to get it in order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202cfc3eace754a0f84bfb1eba57b775b\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. The question is not about what was discussed in the caucus meeting; the question is about the statement of the Minister, in her ministerial capacity, about the Water Services Entities Bill, and the reconciliation of that statement by the Minister, in that capacity, with statements by the Prime Minister in that capacity. Surely it is in order that ministerial comments from the Prime Minister and the Minister of Local Government are in order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229425807f704348208bde24514c069fcc\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Again, the Minister doesn\u2019t have any ministerial responsibility. I\u2019m going to ask the member to reword the question to get it in order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240bb7b944355489bb0966509fa72c7c1\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286e464b8a5ab49e7b9bd90a0bc9208ce\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A new point of order or are you just relitigating this one?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022983d347243a440cdb5e829f5536b01c5\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is. The question has to be asked in respect of this: would Ms Mahuta have been asked that question had she not been the Minister of Local Government, and the answer is emphatically not. That would have been a question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f15cecf2b42d4e0a8c4c421d88ac8777\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a new point of order. You are just relitigating what I ruled. Now, the member has an opportunity whether to use it or not to use it, but he can have the question again to reword it, to get it in order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227e54edb6d1e4457a29559757b52cf3d\u0022\u003ESimon Watts\u003C/span\u003E: Is she aware of statements given in her name by a spokesperson that the entrenchment Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) was discussed at Labour\u2019s caucus and, if so, how does she reconcile that statement with the Prime Minister, who said, \u201CIt was not something I\u2019d necessarily be aware of.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bec4b13cf13497e9f81624339a2b3f7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: In so far as the Minister has responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224248218740f34c5188302b4fca0fe59a\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: While I won\u2019t disclose the specific discussions at caucus, there has been confirmed comments by the Prime Minister and myself that the matter of entrenchment was discussed more broadly. But let me be specific. I first raised the matter of entrenchment with my Cabinet colleagues in April 2022. Cabinet noted that I had written to all political parties seeking their support for entrenchment of provisions that protect against privatisation of water services infrastructure, but that Standing Order 270 will require entrenchment to be carried by a 75 percent majority when the bill reaches the committee of the whole House. This was the result of the recommendation of the Working Group on Representation, Governance and Accountability. I raised it again on 30 May 2022, prior to the introduction of the Water Services Entities Bill, when I noted that cross-party support for entrenchment of these provisions had not emerged and that the Government would not entrench privatisation provisions of that nature in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022052217daa9724053a5f0518bdf62a8b1\u0022\u003ESimon Watts\u003C/span\u003E: Did Cabinet authorise her to make a decision on any entrenchment amendment tabled on the Water Services Entity Bill; if so, when?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a7b19016f8b4ea38b0e97a16853e404\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: If that member is speaking in relation to the SOP that the Green Party\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b81aae23c4ba4820b92fd3b8d60ec99e\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, any entrenchment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a21717ad0314a739d9f3c31f68368db\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: The question is: any entrenchment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdb390bc017b4895a4117241296c984e\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: Can I be clear on the question that\u2019s being asked of me? There\u2019s two members yelling out across the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fbda316ea934a43aaa7ac46eb8627b4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ll have the question again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022435ad3ca371f4f488a04cd95ee137c87\u0022\u003ESimon Watts\u003C/span\u003E: Did Cabinet authorise her to make a decision on any entrenchment amendments tabled on the Water Services Entities Bill; if so, when?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252009f4fb5d8486ca4468d9f43a94033\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. A Minister is not responsible for Supplementary Order Papers tabled by other parties. Parties vote on Supplementary Order Papers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9a8822c5b39481d91c21f4b747154f4\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order. The question is really specifically worded, which is whether Cabinet authorised her as the responsible Minister to make a decision about support, or otherwise, for Supplementary Order Papers. That\u2019s well within Cabinet\u2019s remit. It may or may not have happened in this case. That\u2019s what the question is; we want to know the answer to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022053f77166f8a4b1c8aadb2ba19ee8be3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It can be answered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282cdb2aae44848c68b471ab3daf8750f\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: The SOP that was tabled by the Greens on the day was made aware to us on the day that it was tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022426c479c196f4feca94de5705a7a85fb\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. With respect, that, again, is miles away from addressing the very specific question which relates to Cabinet authorisation for her as Minister of Local Government to support a particular amendment or SOP.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f91e494c7cc74f328267c05753f77bc4\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Speaking to that point of order, the Cabinet cannot authorise a Minister in terms of how a party votes in Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c185e8648cd4787b089fb3b79506234\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, come on. That\u2019s ridiculous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9e627b97e10464689660a6081241582\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Order! The question is in order. The member is simply asking whether or not Cabinet gave blanket authorisation to the Minister to agree or disagree to such an amendment. But there are a number of ways a Minister could answer it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022202c4216b9624cdfaadc70f02662286a\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: The Cabinet papers that I referred to in the previous question in relation to reports in April 2022 and 30 May 2022, and the context of the entrenchment conversations that we had, have been publicly released.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c7fe796ad36e4782967cdc2432cb16bb\u0022\u003EQuestions to Members\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d13a1e57ca864243a21680ad06a6a3bc\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Economic Development, Science and Innovation \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022522ee88318264da9aa69299a70b54455\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Chairperson of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee: Is the report date for the Aotearoa New Zealand Public Media Bill currently before the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee still 26 January 2023?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022 data-id=\u0022fdc9cc270e084a55b4107de6f3ede65d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fdc9cc270e084a55b4107de6f3ede65d\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE (Chairperson of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee):\u003C/span\u003E The answer is yes; the full six-month period for submissions, as instructed to the committee by this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224886ea7488a7435cbcfc7119ece9ce6d\u0022\u003EMelissa Lee\u003C/span\u003E: How many times will the chair call the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee to meet to consider the Aotearoa New Zealand Public Media Bill during the summer recess before the report-back date of 26 January 2023?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2e823af-22b7-4411-8b12-14d7b43680ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dae73a7477e04019b1ac09afbde7eefe\u0022\u003EJAMIE STRANGE\u003C/span\u003E: That is a matter for the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224203f8cc96304445809dec7c2c028e98\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Without disputing the chair\u2019s answer, actually that\u2019s not a matter for the committee. Only the chair can call a meeting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a13ffefa93db4143bb0c7c2424605280\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order: in fact, the committee may call meetings at its meeting for the next meeting and chairs can only call meetings if the committee doesn\u2019t itself call a meeting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275a0971eb6e84f3d90aa7bf03ea6e41c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Both members are correct. The committee or the chair can call a meeting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229573c200d6c6413ba84d9b6253ca6555\u0022\u003EINTRODUCTION OF BILLS\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f94d5098c96041f3b85e80b34c3e544e\u0022\u003EINTRODUCTION OF BILLS\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00229a10b46bf4fd43a2a65f4636f7366509\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a10b46bf4fd43a2a65f4636f7366509\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we missed something earlier. The Clerk has received bills for introduction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022af8848d48d7c4a07a498886ade126d64\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af8848d48d7c4a07a498886ade126d64\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ETherapeutic Products Bill, introduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EClimate Change Response (Late Payment Penalties and Industrial Allocation) Amendment Bill, introduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00221d477a3bd97f416e8c060ae4db13f59d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d477a3bd97f416e8c060ae4db13f59d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those bills are set down for first reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221fa105e50e3542868715c3f1d7ce563e\u0022\u003EVoting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227140c488d1f14018afdbe1297374b5bc\u0022\u003ECorrection\u2014Land Transport (Clean Vehicles) Amendment Bill (No 2) \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002236d28df3743343e2b746fc8acae5149f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236d28df3743343e2b746fc8acae5149f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, on 22 November, when the House was considering the Land Transport (Clean Vehicles) Amendment Bill (No 2), the result of the vote on the question that the bill be now read a third time was incorrectly recorded as Ayes 99, Noes 20. The correct result is Ayes 99, Noes 19.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220ebeb5cff2d84fb9b83bcfde8e125175\u0022\u003ETe Rohe o Rongokako Joint Redress Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222b3e60c15de94343ad40bee326064006\u0022\u003EProcedure\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022fab7269ad67241dc99c942c40544dd90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fab7269ad67241dc99c942c40544dd90\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for the Te Rohe o Rongokako Joint Redress Bill to not be considered in committee and to be set down for third reading immediately, following discussions across the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00228bc52af8b1cf46a293d03f37198dd2c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228bc52af8b1cf46a293d03f37198dd2c3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action being followed? There is none. The bill is set down for third reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220cc6fc76dec843fc90d3aebc489077f3\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c79753b2cd094c8b8ad0e9d05fb995c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c79753b2cd094c8b8ad0e9d05fb995c1\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Te Rohe o Rongokako Joint Redress Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d4d8003029244fa9966dc5c5e467c6b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022847d268cb5774c40807dc124d426dc5a\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Te Rohe o Rongokako Joint Redress Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI acknowledge the people of Rangit\u0101ne o Wairarapa, Rangit\u0101ne o Tamaki nui-\u0101-Rua, and Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua. For those who are watching, for those that are here, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThis is a joint redress bill for the benefit, principally, of iwi whose\u2014for whom I will use the shorthand Rangit\u0101ne and Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu\u2014two iwi are based in Wairarapa and including T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua, the area around Dannevirke. I am pleased to stand and to support the third reading of this bill in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThere is a history behind this joint redress bill that also links to two other pieces of legislation. One has already been enacted, in 2015; that was the legislation for Rangit\u0101ne. The other is legislation that has yet to complete its journey through the House, and that is Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu. I want to acknowledge the efforts of those of Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu and Rangit\u0101ne who have made this joint redress, this agreement possible\u2014and indeed, this legislation possible. I want to particularly acknowledge those who were involved and who have passed on, those who lead the charge to return their taonga to their people, which is what this bill does. It focuses on the Wairarapa Moana and the lake bed, as well as the Ruam\u0101hanga River and a number of other discrete areas that are also part of this joint redress\u2014redress that will be enjoyed by the people of both iwi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the efforts of the various negotiators for both iwi. For Rangit\u0101ne: John Sproat, Jason Kerehi, Mavis Mullins, Tipene Chrisp, and Richard Jones. For Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu, I want to acknowledge the Hon Ron Mark, Ian Perry, Robin Potangaroa, Hayden Hape, Haami Te Whaiti, Marama Tuuta, and Rawiri Smith. I want to thank them for their hard work; their cooperation; their dedication to their people, their whenua, and their moana. I want to acknowledge the Rangit\u0101ne T\u016B Mai R\u0101 chair, Sonya Rimene, and Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua Settlement Trust chair, Haami Te Whaiti, for their leadership and for getting things this far. I should also acknowledge\u2014because, for redress such as contained in this joint redress bill, the local government plays an important role. So I want to acknowledge the local authorities that will have a key role to play in the redress in this legislation: the Greater Wellington Regional Council, South Wairarapa District Council, Carterton District Council, Masterton District Council, and the Tararua District Council, all of whom will be involved. I also want to thank my ministerial colleagues and their agencies for making sure the redress in this bill could come together and therefore could be enacted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThis bill, as I\u2019ve said, will bring to life provisions in the respective deeds of settlement for Rangit\u0101ne and for Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu that had been signed in the last seven years. This journey started, of course, way before then\u2014it started in 1853 with the purchase by the Crown of lands surrounding Wairarapa Moana. The Wairarapa Moana plays an essential role in the life\u2014the wairua\u2014of that area, and has been a jewel in the lives of the people of Wairarapa for generations. The annual hinurangi, or flooding, historically provided kai moana which enabled iwi to trade far outside the Wairarapa region. The purchases of land surrounding Wairarapa Moana hindered the trade and led to years of dispute. Those disputes led to a commission of inquiry, and, in 1896, the lake was gifted to the Crown by iwi as tuku rangatira with the intention of ending the disputes and to, hopefully, protect the lakes. But it didn\u2019t. The lake continued to be degraded and this led to further alienation of local hap\u016B from the Moana. The various agreements reached with Rangit\u0101ne and Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu have included, in the Crown apology, recognition, and acknowledgment of the harm that has been done to the Moana, and it\u2019s hoped that this bill and the redress in it will facilitate a long-overdue return of the Crown-owned lake bed to its rightful kaitiaki.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI think what has been important, too, in the negotiation and the engagement between the Crown and iwi, is an acknowledgment and an understanding of the intergenerational suffering that treatment of the lake has inflicted upon Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu and Rangit\u0101ne\u2014not only for the treatment of the Moana and the awa but also the fact that previous agreements haven\u2019t been properly honoured. So both iwi have entered into negotiations on that basis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI now want to turn to some issues that relate to the relationship between Rangit\u0101ne and Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu. The House is entitled to know that, even as recently as in the last 10 days, there have been engagements between the Crown and Rangit\u0101ne, the Crown and Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu, to address an issue that Rangit\u0101ne has raised right from the outset, when engagement first started over redress in 2013, and has not\u2014in their view\u2014been satisfactorily resolved. That relates to the reference in each of the settlements for Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu and Rangit\u0101ne, particularly, to two Wairarapa hap\u016B: Ng\u0101ti Hamua and Ng\u0101ti Rangiwhakaewa. In Rangit\u0101ne\u2019s view, those hap\u016B are exclusively hap\u016B of Rangit\u0101ne. It was first raised when terms of negotiation were being agreed between the Crown and each iwi, and an agreement between those two iwi called the Treaty settlement engagement policy process document. It\u2019s important to note that, when that agreement was reached in 2013, signed by both iwi on 15 March 2013, a particular acknowledgment was made that, and I quote: \u201CRangit\u0101ne and Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu have different narratives about their respective rohe and relationships with various hap\u016B. This is the normal nature of tribal histories. Given that, both Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua and the Rangit\u0101ne Settlements Negotiation Trust believe it is unhelpful and unreasonable to seek to construct a single global narrative that can be agreed by all Rangit\u0101ne and Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu people in the rohe. This is because iwi affiliation is a personal wh\u0101nau matter based on deeply held beliefs.\u201D And, on the basis of that, negotiations were entered into between the Crown and between each iwi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIf we just follow through\u2014and I\u2019ll go as quickly as I can\u2014these aspects. An Agreement in Principle was signed with Rangit\u0101ne in March 2014, although Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu continued to raise its concerns about the possible inclusion of these two hap\u016B in the agreement with Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu. In any event, in June 2015 Rangit\u0101ne, in communication with the Crown, noted that they exclusively claimed Ng\u0101ti Hamua and Ng\u0101ti Rangiwhakaewa. There were further discussions and workshops ongoing between the parties, but on 9 November, the then Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations, the Hon Chris Finlayson, wrote to Rangit\u0101ne advising of his final decisions on overlapping interests and also referred to the hap\u016B issue and had appointed, as a p\u016Bkenga, T\u0101mati Kruger to deal with the two iwi to try and achieve a resolution. On 1 December 2015, Mr Kruger provided his findings in a report and said the Crown was misplaced as a default arbiter in regard to claimant definition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EOn 9 December, the then Minister, the Hon Chris Finlayson, wrote to Rangit\u0101ne and said, and I quote: \u201CIn view of Crown policy and advice from Mr Kruger, the Crown considers it appropriate to allow both groups to include hap\u016B, where there is evidence of whakapapa and reasonable evidence of affiliation over time.\u201D He went on to say, \u201CI do not propose to enter into discussions with you on the Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu claimant definition, nor will I enter into discussions with Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu on your claimant definition.\u201D He pointed out that the claimant definition in a Treaty settlement is not determinative of whakapapa; it is describing who benefits from a Treaty settlement. The upshot is that Rangit\u0101ne signed their deed of settlement, and so did Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu, on the basis that both understood that those two hap\u016B would be included in their respective statements, as well as in this joint settlement as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002252961e64e4bb45b88442cb53b3f464ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252961e64e4bb45b88442cb53b3f464ed\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u00220efc3a573b98443d9f4ae201b1dab276\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220efc3a573b98443d9f4ae201b1dab276\u0022\u003EDr SHANE RETI (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to speak to this bill, the Te Rohe o Rongokako Joint Redress Bill, and I thank the Minister for providing some of that background. National will be supporting this redress bill through its further stages. This bill provides for a settlement, as per the deed of settlement, which was signed many years ago, actually, between Ng\u0101ti Rangit\u0101ne and Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EWhat we understand from the deed of settlement is that there\u2019ll be several provisions here. First of all, the first part to the bill talks about primarily administrative actions that you would find normally in a settlement bill. The second part looks to address cultural redress. It particularly points out a provision for an overlapping classification over Castlepoint Scenic Reserve, and a provision for the making of regulations for the management of customary fishing in Wairarapa Moana and the Ruamahanga River catchment. It also provides for vesting in fee simple of three cultural redress properties\u2014either jointly in the joint redress trustees or in a tupuna\u2014to be jointly managed by a joint management board. Part 3 of the bill talks more specifically to the Wairarapa Moana framework, including provision for the establishment of the statutory board\u2014the Wairarapa Moana Statutory Board\u2014giving it certain powers and functions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EIn 2010, the Waitangi Tribunal report Wairarapa ki Tararua identified 28 claims and boiled them down into three particular grievances shared by Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu and Rangit\u0101ne. These included the Crown\u2019s acquisition of vast areas of land and its failure to ensure that adequate reserves were protected in their ownership; the Crown\u2019s failure to provide ample reserves near Lake Wairarapa, as it had agreed to under the tuku rangatira of the lakes; and the Crown\u2019s failure to protect the iwi from virtual landlessness and from the erosion of their tribal structures\u2014the social deprivation that resulted in the loss of te reo M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge, here, the select committee who has progressed this bill\u2014the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee\u2014and done a lot of work in this regard; the negotiators; and the key stakeholders, which the Minister mentioned in his offering, for the work that has brought it to this point. Now, yes, there have been some challenges in these past few days, but, in fact, if we look back, the issue that\u2019s been particularly challenging was first raised as far back as 2016, if not further. That is more specifically the whakapapa for these two hap\u016B and whether they sit with Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu or with Ng\u0101ti Rangit\u0101ne or with both. And, you know, that\u2019s been a point of disagreement from many decades ago, and it sits as a point of disagreement here today. And there are some things in Treaty settlement bills that are just unable to be resolved. They progress, and the iwi progress, which is what we all want, but these particular items are never resolved. On one level, they are somewhat unresolvable. And we find ourselves in this position today with Ng\u0101ti Rangit\u0101ne being desirous of these two hap\u016B to maintain their whakapapa relationships to them rather than Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003ETo put this in context, let\u2019s remember that Ng\u0101ti Rangit\u0101ne has completed their Treaty settlement and that slowing down the progress of this redress bill also slows down the progress of settlement for Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu. So this is a stepping stone in progress. It may well be that, even at the completion of this bill and a deed of Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu\u2019s settlement, both parties will still disagree on this point. Let this not be the barrier. Certainly it\u2019s not for us to debate and reach a final point on whakapapa\u2014that is for them to decide; that is for iwi to decide. But I think what we all have unanimity on is the desire for iwi to benefit from the sort of Treaty settlement legislation that we\u2019re progressing here today. And so what I\u2019m saying here is we acknowledge this difference in opinion. It has been long held, and it was not able to be resolved through select committee. I note that Ng\u0101ti Rangit\u0101ne, who feel the most aggrieved, did complete their deed of settlement, which does come with some responsibilities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EIn the documentation provided to my colleague Joseph Mooney, who helps us lead this role, one of the key issues of contention was around advisory provisions from Te Arawhiti that Ng\u0101ti Rangit\u0101ne had agreed that the hap\u016B could be jointly shared, if you like\u2014if you can do that\u2014between them. And they have grievous concerns around that advice, and they have put as much in writing to us. My understanding is that, as that was reported back to the departmental report, it was incorrect. And we are acknowledging\u2014and certainly I and we on this side of the House are acknowledging\u2014that this has been a point of contention that was unresolved decades ago when it was raised, that was unresolved through the select committee, and that will be unresolved as we pass through this bill here today. Our hope is that we can find a position of peace and progress with that unresolved issue, that does not hinder these iwi from getting the enablement and facilitation that these Treaty settlements will bring. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003ESo we acknowledge this difference in opinion and acknowledge the letter that we received, and would seek to redress it here in this third reading by acknowledging that, in our view, the report back from Te Arawhiti and its documentation in the departmental report was incorrect and did not accurately spell out the position of Ng\u0101ti Rangit\u0101ne in its entirety. And for that, I will certainly apologise if I\u2019m in a position to have that mandate to say, \u201CI\u2019m sorry; that that was wrong\u2014in my view and in our view\u2014to Ng\u0101ti Rangit\u0101ne.\u201D And then, hopefully, that provides some peace and addresses one of the key issues, if not the major issue, that came to us in the past 24 hours. So we want to see progress for Ng\u0101ti Rangit\u0101ne. We certainly want to see progress for Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu. Ng\u0101ti Rangit\u0101ne already has their settlement. This contributes to it, and we hope that Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu can then move forward and progress the benefits that we all want them to have, and that on one level there may be some finding of peace around this issue over time. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022 data-id=\u0022fda39846e9844789b3258e6edd76594a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fda39846e9844789b3258e6edd76594a\u0022\u003ERINO TIRIKATENE (Labour\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou \u014Dku rangatira. Rangit\u0101ne o Wairarapa, Rangit\u0101ne o T\u0101maki-nui-a-Rua, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou. Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki-nui-a-Rua, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, kei te mihi, kei te mihi, nau mai, whakatau mai. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003ENau mai whakatau mai ki te Whare P\u0101remata. E takat\u016B nei, he h\u014Dnore nui t\u0113nei ki te t\u016B ki te tautoko i t\u0113nei pire. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou i te mahi tahi, te mahi tahi kei roto i t\u0113nei pire. Ng\u0101 mate huhua o te w\u0101, haere, haere, haere atu koutou. Ko t\u0101tou te kanohi ora e pae nei, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003E[Greetings, Mr Speaker. Greetings to my esteemed colleagues. To Rangit\u0101ne o Wairarapa, Rangit\u0101ne o T\u0101maki-nui-a-Rua, I acknowledge you. To Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki-nui-a-Rua, I acknowledge you, greetings and welcome. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EWelcome to the House of Parliament. I am prepared and it is an honour for me to stand in support of this bill. I acknowledge the collaboration, the collaborative work that we see in this bill. To the many dead of the time, may you rest in peace. To us here today, the representatives of the living, greetings, greetings one and all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EIndeed, it\u2019s an honour to speak in support of this bill, the Te Rohe o Rongokako Joint Redress Bill. Usually this esteemed position in the debate is taken by the chair of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, and I\u2019m pleased, as a former chair of the committee\u2014whilst I haven\u2019t actually examined this bill or had the honour of being able to hear the submitters and to go into great detail on all the provisions of this bill\u2014I want to acknowledge the work of the committee that has done that work. I have the easy part to just rise to tautoko the good work of the committee and everyone that has been involved in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EAs with all Treaty settlement bills, this is a very significant day. I do want to again just extend my welcome to our manuhiri, who have travelled to be here for this third reading, and I want to acknowledge everyone, as has been outlined by the Minister and Dr Reti, who has been involved. These Treaty settlements span decades in terms of the work that\u2019s undertaken, whether it\u2019s on both sides\u2014on the iwi side, on the negotiators\u2014and the actual work that the Crown conducts through Te Arawhiti and their officials. So I want to commend Minister Little and his officials and everyone that\u2019s been involved in working through these issues. They are not easy issues to work through, when we are dealing with Treaty settlements, but I want to commend the innovation, really, that is encompassed in this bill, being a joint redress bill. I\u2019ve been here a few terms but this is the first of its kind, I believe, where we\u2019ve got a separate bill which actually combines joint redress and deals with joint redress issues from different iwi. So I want to commend just the foresight and the mahi that is encapsulated within this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EI know that there are some controversial aspects, but I want to actually just focus on what this bill actually does, which is all about joint cultural redress\u2014\u201Cjoint\u201D being the two iwi or the three iwi, Rangit\u0101ne with Kahungunu\u2014over some significant taonga within their takiw\u0101. I think being able to have those connections to that taonga is so vitally important and that\u2019s what this bill does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003ESo, when we talk about taonga such as Wairarapa Moana, taonga such as the awa\u2014these are areas of, I guess, mahinga kai, great abundance, great historical settlements, traverses, I guess, of the many hap\u016B, the many tribes of these great iwi. And to be able to have both of the iwi\u2014all of the iwi\u2014jointly recognised in this redress, I think, is a testament to the work of everyone that\u2019s taken part in these negotiations and, finally, in this settlement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EThere are two separate deeds of settlement\u2014one with Rangit\u0101ne and one with Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu\u2014and both of those deeds refer to the creation of this joint redress. This is what this bill does in terms of being able to complete that aspect of this important part of both of those deeds. It also ushers in the way for the completion of the Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu settlement as well, which is also coming through this House. So it\u2019s really important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EI was just doing a read of it, and it\u2019s a pleasure to see a statutory board being created over the Wairarapa Moana, the return of the Crown land parts to be vested, and separate boards to be created with iwi representatives and those among local authorities and other appointees. So I guess that\u2019s all about progress, as Dr Reti mentioned; it\u2019s all about moving forward. And I know these are really important markers in the ground for the iwi, the mana whenua of the beautiful areas of the Wairarapa and up into the Hawke\u2019s Bay. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003ESo this is very significant legislation. It is innovative and I\u2019m pleased that the parties have been able to follow through and be able to create the provisions in this bill which actually give effect to the return of those taonga, or the ability to have overlay classifications and recognition of the mana of the iwi within the area and across those very special taonga\u2014waterbodies, wetlands, and other very special whenua for all the iwi of the takiw\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EFinally, I note from the bill that there is recognition around customary fisheries in relation to Wairarapa Moana and, I believe, also the awa. I commend the work that all of the iwi of the Hawke\u2019s Bay and the Wairarapa are doing in the customary fisheries area. I know, in relation to the coastal fisheries, there is a very active and well-organised iwi forum\u2014the Mai Paritu tae atu ki Turakirae Fisheries Forum\u2014and that actual group actually now includes Ng\u0101i T\u0101manuhiri up on the East Coast and it goes all the way down through M\u0101hia, through the Hawke\u2019s Bay, and all the way down to the Wairarapa and to Cape Palliser. And, within that takiw\u0101, are Rangit\u0101ne and Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu, and there is a great deal of cooperation and working together in a marine fisheries sense on their rohe take, on their rohe moana, and on looking after the customary fisheries which are so important to these people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003EI commend the work that they are doing at an iwi forum fisheries level. That goes all the way down to their individual marae and to their individual wh\u0101nau. They have a very forward-looking plan of being able to upskill and being able to play their role as kaitiaki, which is so very important. And that also extends through this bill\u2014the elements of kaitiaki, of upholding customary fisheries, also complying with the law, whether it be fisheries legislation or conservation legislation\u2014but having those bodies in place which can regulate those very special customary rights, which our people hold so dearly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002281825190-fd5d-4ed0-bb80-f12f3c93e653\u0022\u003ESo, with that, I once again want to just acknowledge the manuhiri who\u2019ve come to witness this occasion, and it has indeed been an honour to be able to tautoko this bill. I\u2019ve done many a Treaty settlement bill and, again, they are all just hugely significant, and especially this, which captures the cultural redress aspects which are held so dearly by all of these iwi. I do want to acknowledge the tupuna from both Rangit\u0101ne and from Kahungunu, who is vested in the taonga that is vested from this bill. I think that\u2019s hugely significant that that shared tupuna is acknowledged in that way. And with that, I congratulate everyone involved and I commend this bill to the House. Kia ora mai t\u0101tau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022fefdf2a164a042d690387ac14110c093\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fefdf2a164a042d690387ac14110c093\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Papakura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I take a short call on this matter. This is unusual for a settlements bill, because there is obviously an ongoing dispute essentially relating to whakapapa between Rangit\u0101ne and Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu, and I take whakapapa very seriously, having had my own disrespect in this House, including my surname\u2014my family name. I find it deeply offensive when people don\u2019t take that seriously, so I understand that this is an ongoing and disturbing issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI note also, though, that the deed of settlement was signed between Rangit\u0101ne and the Crown on 6 August 2016 and that the deed of settlement signed between Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu and the Crown was signed on 29 October 2021. Sometimes it is important to move on. It is important to be able to help people to be able to make the most of what there is, and then to sort out the dispute that is still existing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI see that the Crown has worked long and hard to try and come to some sort of settlement between both parties. I think that it is actually a good thing that the Crown has tried very hard to do that, and I know that the select committee has heard submissions for quite some time on this matter. It is, however, important that this matter is addressed, and I\u2019m sure that once the settlement bill goes through, it will be easier for those who are concerned about some of the aspects to be able to deal with those whakapapa issues between themselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t think it is possible for the Crown to adjudicate with the judgment of Solomon on these issues. It is simply not possible. I think it would be lovely if that was possible, but I just know that the Crown will be accused of getting it wrong, and I understand why they might not want to do so. It is simply too important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ESome of the cultural redress provided to Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu and Rangit\u0101ne includes provision of an overlay classification over Castlepoint Scenic Reserve and provision for the making of regulations for the management of customary fishing in Wairarapa Moana and the river catchment, and it is important that these matters be addressed. I think it\u2019s time for some of these big settlements to be completed, it\u2019s time for people to be able to know where they stand, and it\u2019s time for the iwi to be able to get on with their job of providing not only for their people of today but the people of tomorrow, for family and for grandchildren. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EAs to the issue itself, as I said, it\u2019s unusual for this matter to come to the House. The National Party had some approaches from Rangit\u0101ne about this, and I know that some of our colleagues met with the Minister earlier today to address and to raise some of those issues. The decision was, essentially, that there was no way that we could bring this matter to a better conclusion than to ask both parties to be able to sort it out. It is simply not going to happen, and so I think that\u2019s really the best that we can do. I think the fact that one settlement deed was signed under a National-led Government and the second was signed under a Labour Government probably tends to indicate that this has been taking quite a long time and, before that, no doubt, decades of grievance, and it\u2019s time for us to be able to draw a line in the sand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00220c41dcbcd98c4acf9ae68be322d4ca28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c41dcbcd98c4acf9ae68be322d4ca28\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker, and ng\u0101 mihi ki a Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki-nui-a-Rua me Rangit\u0101ne o Wairarapa me Rangit\u0101ne o T\u0101maki-nui-a-Rua. It\u2019s a pleasure to take a call as the deputy chair of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, which heard these submissions, and I want to also acknowledge the hard work of the chair of the committee, T\u0101mati Coffey, for leading what has been, I think, a very constructive and very discursive and in-depth process that the committee has gone through to examine the submissions on this bill and to really understand the history of the settlement to date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI also want to acknowledge the negotiators of Rangit\u0101ne and Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu, and particularly for their work for the people they represent now but also for future generations, and for always having that in mind. The negotiators who come to the table on this represent so much\u2014not only the hopes of the people now but also the weight of the expectations and the hopes of our t\u016Bpuna, and they have done that with dignity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThis bill, as the Minister said, brings to life agreements made in those rooms, in those discussions between rangatira of the iwi and the Crown. It\u2019s a real privilege to sit on the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, which comes to see the very end point of the Treaty negotiations process and all of the work that has gone into that, not just from the Crown side but from the iwi themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI will take us through some of the detail of what this bill does, as someone who\u2019s had the privilege of examining it at the committee stage, but first, let me tell you about my favourite memory of sitting for this issue. It was on 12 May that the select committee went to P\u0101p\u0101wai Marae in Greytown, and we were invited there to hear from the 21 submitters who wanted to be heard in person at P\u0101p\u0101wai Marae. It\u2019s a really important site for many iwi, not just the two iwi that we are talking about here today. It was the site of what was once a M\u0101ori Parliament. It has been a site of debate and discussion in Te Ao M\u0101ori for many generations, and it was really special to be there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI remember standing at the mahau as the very light rain began\u2014the marangai\u2014and a rainbow emerged from outside. You know, in Te Ao M\u0101ori, that is a sign that these discussions are important, and I felt the weight of that. When we heard the mamae within the wharenui expressed in such personal terms\u2014you know, these were people telling us their stories not only of their own deep feelings about the names of their t\u016Bpuna but also about the stories that they had learnt as children from their grandparents in that very whare that we were sitting in. It was very special, but also it\u2019s not like another select committee where you hear from submitters and experts and then you\u2019re able to weigh a sort of linear narrative about what is factually correct. This was asking us to make very careful judgment calls about how we expressed the select committee\u2019s position on behalf of Parliament and reported back, and we took that job really seriously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EBut it wasn\u2019t actually in that wharenui that was the most important discussion. For me, it was in the wharekai over morning tea with\u2014the hau k\u0101inga had put on an incredible spread, and I got around the room and I got to sit with nannies and uncles and aunties and their cousins, and some nieces and nephews\u2014some only 20 years old\u2014who were presenting to the committee later in the day. And I just got to see\u2014whether they were from what one might see as the Kahungunu side of the dispute or what one might see as Te Rangiwhakaewa side of the dispute or whatever it was\u2014I saw them talking to each other about their hopes and what they wanted to see from this settlement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIn this space that was the wharekai, it really hit me how these relationships are so deeply felt and so important, and the Crown\u2019s got really nothing to do with that. It\u2019s really incumbent upon us as parliamentarians to appreciate just how irrelevant we are to the strength of those relationships which exist between the hap\u016B, between the iwi, and between the inter-iwi relationships that go along with these settlements, and that it is for the leaders of these iwi to set a strong signal of leadership when these settlements go through and then for the people to keep them accountable and to make sure that they are working for our people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m pleased that at this third reading we will be passing this bill, and then we can step back from that role. We still owe a duty as the Crown to make sure that the commitments are honoured, and we will honour those into the future, but for these relationships that hinge on whakapapa and the right way to acknowledge whakapapa, those are not for us. I thank the member Judith Collins for what she said: the Crown cannot adjudicate on those matters. I heard, also, Dr Shane Reti when he said we want to leave this in a position of peace and progress. That is what we hope in this House. It is not a political position; that is the right thing to do, and I support those comments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ENow, let me just talk a little bit about this joint redress bill. It recognises that, while Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu and Rangit\u0101ne are very separate and claim lineage from different ancestors, they are closely interconnected in the way that I spoke about and saw with my own eyes at P\u0101p\u0101wai. They share whakapapa throughout the Wairarapa and T\u0101maki-nui-a-Rua regions, and that is why having a separate piece of legislation like this, which deals with their joint redress, lets them\u2014the iwi\u2014have their own separate settlements that are for them to do with what they please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIt doesn\u2019t mean that all of their joint redress is included in this bill, because, of course, both of their individual settlements will be for the benefit of many individuals who claim lineage to both Rangit\u0101ne and Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu. It\u2019s important for us to bear in mind that, while we heard from individuals who claim that settlement of a certain piece of land or settlement of certain assets should be to one individually, many of the individuals that we would have heard from can claim the benefit of both individual settlements and the joint redress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe thing to know about the joint redress is that, as my colleague Rino Tirikatene has said, the joint redress deals with much of the cultural property. Cultural property in Treaty settlements is things like statutory recognition of the importance of a particular landmark or site\u2014in this case, for instance, the Wairarapa Moana\u2014that has been taken for the Crown wrongly and it will be recognised, going further, as significant to that iwi. It affects things like taonga t\u016Bturu protocols, which I\u2019m really keen on. Those are things like when a taonga is discovered on private or public land\u2014those are protocols that the Ministry of Culture and Heritage has to decide who might put up their hand and say, \u201CWe would like to care for that; we are the kaitiaki of that thing which our t\u016Bpuna used and is a taonga to us.\u201D They\u2019re important for things like signs and things like who gets input into the naming of certain sites. They seem small, but they\u2019re actually really important about the way that we conceptualise the land around us. So that\u2019s why these are particularly important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s useful for the House to look at how Subpart 1 in Part 2 of this bill provides for the overlay classification of Castlepoint. That was a piece of land that the committee heard a lot about. It\u2019s significant for both Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu and Rangit\u0101ne, through their traditional cultural and spiritual and historical stories for that piece of land. We heard from submitters\u2014and many submitters, in fact\u2014that it was significant for both iwi, and so this is why it\u2019s in the joint redress bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIt also deals in Subpart 2 of Part 2 with the management of customary fishing in Wairarapa Moana, and later in the bill it deals with the land associated with Wairarapa Moana. This is something the committee considered really carefully, about how those arrangements will work in future, particularly around the penalties for people who break the rules around them, because this is something that the Crown and the iwi will be responsible for, going forward, around the management of that land. We delved closely into that because it is a common provision which officials gave us some really useful advice about, and, I think, we\u2019ve got it right for the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThere were also a lot of submissions around the M\u0101kirikiri property, and I want to put on record for the House that we carefully considered the evidence provided to us regarding the vesting of M\u0101kirikiri reserve in the tupuna Te Rangi Rangiwhakaewa. We sought advice from officials on the circumstances leading to the ratification of that M\u0101kirikiri property. Some of the discussion has come back to that issue of whakapapa, and, again, I\u2019m really supportive of where we have landed with this and believe in the leadership of both iwi to continue to work with that property and the rest of this joint settlement. That\u2019s why I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3a50336d5a74c91af07cd34e6d5126d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3a50336d5a74c91af07cd34e6d5126d\u0022\u003EDr ELIZABETH KEREKERE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te Whare. I rise on behalf of the Green Party in the third reading of Te Rohe o Rongokako Joint Redress Bill. I acknowledge the chair of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, T\u0101mati Coffey, and my colleagues on the committee who joined for this and the companion bill. I mihi to the Minister and all of the officials because we know that these are difficult to get through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EThis bill gives effect to specific cultural redress shared between Rangit\u0101ne o Tamaki nui-\u0101-Rua, Rangit\u0101ne o Wairarapa, and Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua, as provided for in their respective deeds of settlement. Me tuku mihi, ki a koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EThe redress includes sites to be jointly vested, including the M\u0101kirikiri reserves, the Mataikona property, the bed of Lake Wairarapa\u2014which forms part of Wairarapa Moana\u2014a wetland of international significance, and an overlay classification of the Castlepoint Scenic Reserve, which enables Rangit\u0101ne o Tamaki nui-\u0101-Rua and Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua to identify protection principles and value statements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EDuring the hearings for this bill at P\u0101p\u0101wai Marae, we heard from many of the wh\u0101nau, including the settlement trusts of all of these iwi. We heard from all parties about how this has been a long, long time coming, especially since the Rangit\u0101ne T\u016B Mai R\u0101 (Wairarapa Tamaki nui-\u0101-Rua) Claims Settlement Bill came into effect way back in 2017. We acknowledge all of the negotiators whose work led to this bill and its companion bill, the Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua Claims Settlement Bill, which is coming up for its third reading next week. We note the massive amount of research done by the parties involved and the depth of matauranga and whakapapa that they shared with us, and, of course, only a tiny, tiny bit of that could we hear in the hearings and the submissions we received.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EThese Treaty bills are quite different from other legislation we have, because they\u2019re based on deeds of settlement which have already been signed, and that means, once it\u2019s been drafted and it comes to us, there are not going to be many changes. It\u2019s not going to be much changed from that point, but that means that the issues that are raised in the submissions at the hearings are unlikely to be resolved through the rest of this process. So our job on the select committee is to hear those things. For many of us on the select committee, it means we get sent letters and we get many phone calls. I haven\u2019t had any subsequent meetings with any of the members since the hearings, but that\u2019s part of our job to hear those things, and even though we know that it doesn\u2019t mean that we\u2019re going to be able to resolve them, part of our job is then to give a voice to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003ESome of those issues needed to be sorted out beforehand, and I know, and we have heard, how hard Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu has worked to try and resolve those issues and have hui with other complainants to resolve those issues beforehand, and they could not. We believe it was a responsibility of the Crown to do that mediation so that Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu wasn\u2019t having to bear that burden, and, of course, we have heard only a little bit, again, of the distress and trauma that the wh\u0101nau are still experiencing because they disagree. Matters of whakapapa are very, very personal and we have no doubt that both Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu and Rangit\u0101ne are absolutely correct in their own understandings of their own whakapapa. That is, again, not ever for us to have a say on. Of course, the key issue, then, is where they disagree, and particularly for the hap\u016B of Ng\u0101ti H\u0101mua and\u2014the pronunciation according to Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa o T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua\u2014Ng\u0101ti Te Rangiwhakaewa, and, according to Rangit\u0101ne, Ng\u0101ti Te Rangiwhakaewa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve stated in the House that not only is it not our job to determine whakapapa, we still end up colluding with the fact that that\u2019s what\u2019s happening, and that\u2019s a very uncomfortable position to be in as a M\u0101ori in this Whare. Nobody wins\u2014nobody wins in that circumstance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EWe supported this bill at the last reading and we had, right up until yesterday, intended to support it today, because we understood that even though the concerns were raised about those particular hap\u016B in the submissions, we understood that both parties had agreed right from the beginning that they would appear in both bills. We thought \u201COh well, that decision\u2019s been made. That\u2019s already happened.\u201D, and that agreement was made even if maybe one party was thinking subsequently that maybe they\u2019d like to change it. We have now learnt\u2014and the Minister has confirmed today\u2014that the select committee was given incorrect advice and that Rangit\u0101ne has never supported the inclusion of both hap\u016B in both bills, and, of course, that impacts on this one, which is their joint redress. Yesterday, we received a letter from Rangit\u0101ne T\u016B Mai R\u0101 Trust saying that they were pulling out of this process and that they did not support this bill. This is their own redress. This is the finalisation of all of these issues being dragged through Parliament, and a chance for everybody to take a sigh of relief and to be able to celebrate, and my heart goes out to everybody involved, because this is awful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EWe asked in our office, and no one in the Greens\u2019 office has any experience of this happening before. I\u2019m happy to be corrected. We were shocked by this, and to be clear, the Crown owes all of these iwi significant amends. So much harm has been caused, so much loss has occurred, and today this bill will go through. It absolutely will go through. For us, we don\u2019t understand how a joint redress bill can be durable if one party refuses to agree to it. So, sadly, on that basis alone\u2014and not because we think it shouldn\u2019t happen\u2014the Greens will be abstaining on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u002229ea26a833334baf9a5b01018d342a18\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002229ea26a833334baf9a5b01018d342a18\u0022\u003EKAREN CHHOUR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to stand here today and have a short call on this joint redress bill. Lots has been said today around concerns where the two parties have not come to an agreement in regards to this, but I still would like to say how proud I am to stand here and be part of a process like this\u2014even if it\u2019s just a small process; even if it\u2019s just the small bit of me standing here and saying we need to right the wrongs of the past. Unless we right the wrongs of the past as well as we can, we can\u2019t move forward together, in this country, to create the beautiful country that we want to see. I think that we can\u2019t fully right the wrongs of the past, but we can do the best we can and hope it goes some way to healing the pain and helping us move forward as a country. So we, the ACT Party, will be supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EThis is a story about two iwi that have their own journeys and stories about losing their assets, losing their connections with their land, and losing so much that they held dear to themselves\u2014to the point that many, I\u2019m sure, have already passed, before this has come before the House. Many have heard stories that have been handed down from generation to generation, and many will still feel the pain of their great-great-grandparents. I think it\u2019s important that we acknowledge that, that we acknowledge the history, which has been handed down from generation to generation, so that we don\u2019t repeat the wrongs of the past. These conversations need to be had. And I\u2019m really proud that, as a parliament, we can come together\u2014the whole House together\u2014and agree that what happened was wrong, and we can agree that we need to acknowledge this and we need to acknowledge the pain of generations passed and generations today that have fought to right those wrongs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003ESo I want to acknowledge the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, because it can\u2019t be easy not being able to help when you really want to, not being able to acknowledge issues that are outside of the scope of the bill, although you understand the pain that these submitters are going through in trying to address an issue on which, quite frankly, the select committee had their hands tied and weren\u2019t able to. So I just want to acknowledge the select committee in how it must have felt to not be able to address those issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EI understand whakapapa and how important it is because I\u2019ve spent most of my life not knowing my whakapapa\u2014and that hurts. So, when you\u2019re finally feeling like you\u2019re fighting for that right to feel belonging, or fighting for that right to have your whakapapa acknowledged, I can understand how painful that might be\u2014not feeling like you have a sense of belonging and not knowing where you belong. So I feel that and I understand that, and I\u2019m sorry that that has not been able to be addressed. I hope that the two iwi can come together and sort this between themselves in the future so that those who feel they don\u2019t belong can have a sense of belonging sometime in the future. So ACT will be supporting this bill and, hopefully, this brings a little bit of closure to that pain.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022 data-id=\u0022d72b43bf8a044d819af4a8596fdb79b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d72b43bf8a044d819af4a8596fdb79b9\u0022\u003ESORAYA PEKE-MASON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te Mana Whakaw\u0101. Whakamoemiti ki a koe e Ihoa o ng\u0101 mano, ko te Matua, Tama, Wairua Tapu, me ng\u0101 Anahera Pono me te M\u0101ngai \u0101ianei, \u0101ke nei, \u0101e. E mihi ana ki te hunga mate o Aotearoa i t\u0113nei w\u0101, haere, haere, oki wairua. Ki a t\u0101tou te hunga ora, te Mana Whakaw\u0101 an\u014D t\u0113n\u0101 koe. T\u0113na koutou ng\u0101 kaum\u0101tua, nga kuia, ng\u0101 rangatira, ng\u0101 pakeke, ng\u0101 uri o Rangit\u0101ne me Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003E[Greetings, Mr Speaker. I give thanks to the Lord God of the countless multitudes, to the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, the Faithful Angels, and The Mouthpiece, now and forevermore. I acknowledge the dead at this time in Aotearoa, may you rest in peace.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003ETo us, the living, to you again, Mr Speaker, greetings. Greetings to the elders, the chiefs, and the adults and the descendants of Rangit\u0101ne and Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003EIt is with humility I take this call. Humility because all the hard work has been done. It\u2019s been done and carried out as a result of me only just recently coming into the House. I want to acknowledge everyone that\u2019s been involved with this, both settlements\u2014and this bill, in particular\u2014each and every one of you all, and in particular Ng\u0101 Iwi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the passing of time on this bill, and all the claims involved here. It is said by the old people\u2014which is a term of endearment\u2014\u201CThere is no such thing as time; it takes the time it needs.\u201D Rangit\u0101ne me Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu, this is your time. This claim dates back to the early 1840s, but, as we hear today, there is still more work to do\u2014a lot of work, mamae to be worked through. But what\u2019s important is that we find a way today\u2014and this is a way\u2014to be able to try and make those little steps forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge\u2014in saying that and acknowledging the 1840s\u2014those who have passed behind the veil. It is because of them that we are here today; it is because of their sacrifices; it is because of their hard work that we are able to stand here today to work with tangata whenua, Te Ao M\u0101ori, Aotearoa New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge my three-year-old mokopuna, Caesar Te Ariki Paewae-Meihana, uri o Rangit\u0101ne and Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu; the next generations\u2014his generation and others to come\u2014who deserve and have the right to move through life in a way that upholds their mana motuhake, their tino rangatiratanga, that was handed down to them by their t\u012Bpuna.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003EI want to touch very briefly, but in a simple way, on what this all means\u2014this bill, the redress\u2014in a simple, plain English way. I\u2019m no lawyer; I come here because others thought I should be here. But I always think, when I attend these meetings and I\u2019m learning about being in Parliament, how easy it would be if we can do things in a simple, plain English language way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003EI just want to talk about the cultural redress. You\u2019ve got overlay classification over Castlepoint Scenic Reserve and Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu and Rangit\u0101ne. What I see here: it\u2019s a place where you can build that relationship, where you can work together. Our mokopuna, they have no boundaries. We all whakapapa to our boundaries. Most of us do; that\u2019s the way whakapapa works. But here we are today: we are in a colonial mainstream construct and this is what we\u2019ve got to work with today. This is a way that we can look at, to continue to try and find steps that progressively move us forward. They don\u2019t have to be big steps; they can be little steps. Nevertheless, for our mokopuna, let\u2019s look at them as being a step forward no matter how big or small. So that\u2019s how I think about the boundaries when it comes to Treaty settlement\u2014not the easiest for anyone by no means, for any iwi to navigate through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003ECustomary fishing makes me think of growing up as a little girl when\u2014might be showing my age here, but hey\u2014my p\u0101p\u0101 used to go fishing over there at \u014Cpunake and come home with kai moana; there was plenty of kai for us. It was cool. We didn\u2019t know back then, actually, how rich and how valuable that was to us. But what I see here in terms of the customary fishing\u2014because we\u2019re in a world today that\u2019s changed dramatically since then; some good, some not so good. But nevertheless, this is a chance for us to be able to hold on to that which is dear to us, our kai moana; to be able to go and fish and to feed our wh\u0101nau. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003EThe next one is the cultural redress of properties. I think we\u2019ve all been involved in the redress of our properties, our whenua. We\u2019ve all been involved in it somehow, shape, or form with regards to land utilisation of what we\u2019ve got left\u2014albeit a lot of it\u2019s landlocked, a lot of it\u2019s unproductive, underutilised for whatever reasons. But I see the opportunity here for you to work together, to be able to do something with this land, whatever that might be; whatever you decide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003ELastly, a framework. It sounds very business-like\u2014that\u2019s the world we live in today\u2014but what I like about these frameworks, from my experience, is that they actually bring people to account. It brings the Crown to account; it brings stakeholders, it brings councils to account around what\u2019s being proposed here. They have responsibilities; it\u2019s up to us to hold them to account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003EI\u2019m reminded of a kupu o T W Ratana back in 1918, when he tirelessly worked to unite Te Ao M\u0101ori and restore Te Tiriti o Waitangi to its rightful place as the founding document of this nation. It was a time when he brought our people out of the darkness and into the light. And here we are today, finding a way how we can continue to do that as a people, as a nation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m humbled, in many ways, to be here, to be able to share with you all and to speak to this really important redress on behalf of us all, and, more importantly, those that have done the hard work before me. I commend Te Rohe o Rongokako Joint Redress Bill to the House. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00220be959ebd1f7446794aa803ed3e8a8ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220be959ebd1f7446794aa803ed3e8a8ba\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Chris Penk\u2014a five-minute call shared with the M\u0101ori Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00224f009cebcff04ab8863e62cdc4876654\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f009cebcff04ab8863e62cdc4876654\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, sir. It\u2019s always an honour as well as a pleasure to rise to speak on settlement and redress bills. And I feel as though it\u2019s also appropriate to acknowledge a sense of responsibility. I think we\u2019ve heard this afternoon that sense of responsibility is felt by all colleagues across the House as we have explored the path that has been trod to this place, at this, the third reading of Te Rohe o Rongokako Joint Redress Bill. We\u2019ve heard in relation to Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu and Rangit\u0101ne the cultural redress that\u2019s clearly important from a historical perspective, but also acknowledging, in the present, the issues that have formed the background to these discussions. And when we talk about the issues in the present, it\u2019s worth acknowledging that it\u2019s as recently as the last couple of days that further substantive discussion about these has taken place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIf I can just step back briefly from reflections on what\u2019s at stake in the particular bill, I think it\u2019s worth remembering that Parliament is called on to approve the actions of the Government of the day, acting as the Crown. Parliament\u2019s not a rubber stamp but it is called upon, effectively, to ratify the decisions of the Minister on behalf of the Crown. For that reason, Opposition members can be, I suppose, at somewhat of a disadvantage in the sense that we are not so actively involved in that direct discussion and negotiation. But where good engagement takes place between the Minister and members of the Opposition\u2014as has taken place in this case, I understand, through discussion with my good friend and colleague Joseph Mooney\u2014then we can have a greater degree of confidence that we are collectively doing the right thing in this space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EOthers have referred to challenging aspects of the passage of the legislation. And another colleague and friend Dr Shane Reti has made, I think, some, if I may say, very intelligent remarks in that space, as have others across the House, actually, including even the party that has determined, ultimately, that it can\u2019t support the bill at its third reading. And the fact that Parliament cannot resolve these issues, can\u2019t determine whakapapa, I think, is part of the point, and the rest of the point is that it should not attempt to do so. It shouldn\u2019t purport to be able to make those decisions, even if that were possible. Even if we had the competence, it shouldn\u2019t be something that we feel is within our jurisdiction. Of course, we do need to turn our mind to these issues to the extent that we need to understand what the legislation says about recognising different groupings and the same groups, in some cases, that have been affected by the historical wrongs of the past.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo others have spoken, therefore, about the settlement process and the need for progress. And, at the risk of stating the matter too bluntly, I think it\u2019s always worth us bearing in mind the desire, I think, of the whole nation. Now, I don\u2019t purport to speak on behalf of the nation, but I think those with goodwill, including those in the House who want to assist as many as possible in as timely a fashion as possible, do need to acknowledge that, whereas points of contention\u2014again, to borrow the phrase of my colleague and friend Dr Reti\u2014will arise, nevertheless it\u2019s worth us working through and understanding as best as we can where this has been based on misunderstandings or conceived advice and so forth, and to provide if not finality, then as much certainty as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI will take no more of the House\u2019s time. I haven\u2019t been intimately connected with the discussions at select committee level but I acknowledge those who have. I acknowledge those who have contacted members of Parliament, Government and otherwise, to make their feelings and thoughts on the matter clear. And if I can presume to finish on a note that I suppose is more reflective than informative, but it seems to me that the pain of the past that we sometimes feel as a nation inevitably means that the present is complex, but it\u2019s only by grappling with that past and that present that we can hope to have a future that is better. So I join others from around the House today who ultimately, at this, the third reading of the bill, commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u0022b39b11d7ea49498cb33e8daadcf2a3a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b39b11d7ea49498cb33e8daadcf2a3a7\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te Paati M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Ka tangohia taku p\u014Dtae. Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki-nui-a-Rua, Rangit\u0101ne o Wairarapa, me Rangit\u0101ne o T\u0101maki-nui-a-Rua, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou i runga i te \u0101huatanga o \u014D t\u0101tou mate, ng\u0101 mate putuputu o te w\u0101, ng\u0101 mate o te hunga n\u0101 r\u0101tou i kawe, p\u012Bkau ng\u0101 mamaetanga o ng\u0101 iwi e rua i roto i tau maha kua hipa ake. Kei te tangi tonu, kei te mihi tonu, kei te poroaki tonu, r\u0101tou ki a r\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EWhakahaerengia t\u0113nei kaupapa ki runga i a P\u0101p\u0101wai. Ka mihi r\u0101 ki te tipuna a Te M\u0101nihera Te Rangitakaiwaho, ki a H\u0101muera Tamahou Mahupuku, me te \u0101huatanga o Te Kotahitanga o ng\u0101 iwi i raro i te maru o Ihoa o ng\u0101 mano, t\u0113nei r\u0101 ka mihi atu nei ki a koutou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E[I will doff my hat. Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki-nui-a-Rua, Rangit\u0101ne o Wairarapa, and Rangit\u0101ne o T\u0101maki-nui-a-Rua, greetings. I greet you and acknowledge our dead, the frequent deaths of the time, the dead of those who have carried the burden of pain of the two tribes in the past many years. We grieve you still, we acknowledge you still, and we farewell you still, let the dead be with the dead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EThe work on this issue was done at P\u0101p\u0101wai. I acknowledge the ancestors Te M\u0101nihera Te Rangitakaiwaho and H\u0101muera Tamahou Mahupuku, as well as the aspects of unification of tribes under the safeguard of the Lord God of the countless multitudes, I stand here and acknowledge you.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EJoint redress should not be determined by Government, but by iwi, and not the Crown, who has inflicted and forced process that has been designed to divide and conquer our people. Whakapapa is about connection. Boundaries are about connection, and not separation. This House cannot preach peace and prosperity for any iwi when this House has sponsored State terrorism on our people. It continues to do so today. It all feels like empty words to us: you can\u2019t cry about whakapapa when you are part of parties that continue to denigrate the mana or the whakapapa of tangata whenua through race-baiting policies. I want to acknowledge the mamae that the Crown has caused throughout this process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003ETe whakawehewehe i ng\u0101 iwi. I mua noa atu i te h\u0113 kau ng\u0101 whakahaere o t\u0113nei K\u0101wanatanga i ng\u0101 ker\u0113me Tiriti k\u0101ore t\u0113nei t\u016B\u0101huatanga i heip\u016B ki waenganui i a t\u0101tou. N\u0101 Te Karauna t\u0113nei mahi, n\u0101 Te K\u0101wanatanga t\u0113nei mahi, me \u014Dna kaupapa whakahaere katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E[The separation of tribes. This Government has long erred in its management of Treaty claims, and this situation didn\u2019t merely come about by chance amongst us. But, rather, it is a result of the Crown, with all its attendant administration.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EThis mamae has only intensified in the last two years\u2019 decisions made by the judiciary. Our Government flaunts itself as a beacon for indigenous rights on the international stage, while exploiting the generosity of tangata whenua at home. Crown negotiation policies such as large natural groupings and the fiscal envelope have determined this, engineering further division, further harm, and further breaches of Te Tiriti itself. That is why the M\u0101ori Party does not accept the settlements are full or final. The Crown may give us 1 percent of our land back, but our mokopuna must fight for the other 99 percent. I would also like to remind the Crown that the Treaty was never about tangata whenua. We had mana motuhake long before the Dutch cartographer conferred the name Nova Zeelandia or the Latin equivalent of the Dutch New Zealand\u2014the name of one of the last ports that transferred African slaves to America. The Treaty is what gives the Crown the right to be here, and so I\u2019m not sure why they\u2019re in such a rush to settle this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EBut we have the answers; Te Paati M\u0101ori have always had the answers to our mana motuhake policy. Te Paati M\u0101ori would transform the negotiation process, ending Crown-imposed policies such as the full and final or large natural groupings. Instead, we will affirm the right to all hap\u016B and iwi to continue the struggle for the recognition of their rights and interests, and for the return of their land; overhaul Te Tiriti settlement process and end the fiscal envelope; insert relativity clauses into all Te Tiriti settlements to ensure all iwi have parity with Ng\u0101i Tahu and Waikato-Tainui who have paved the way; make Waitangi Tribunal recommendations binding on the Crown and implement all unaddressed Wai claims and recommendations; abolish full and final settlements, like I\u2019ve said, and large natural groupings; return conservation land to wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, iwi, and M\u0101ori; introduce a first right of refusal policy for mana whenua when private land or historical significant lands come up for sale, just like Ihum\u0101tao. W\u0113r\u0101 \u0101huatanga katoa ka kitea i te oranga o ng\u0101i t\u0101tou. E kore te rino e piri ki te keret\u016B, koin\u0101 hoki t\u0113tahi k\u014Drero.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E[All those approaches lead to the benefit of all. There is another saying, clay and iron will not stick.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EThe clay and iron will not stick. And this is the reason why we are here. There\u2019s another saying that we used at Te Wh\u0101nau-\u0101-Apanui: it is like Rangi trying to fit her foot into Cinderella\u2019s slipper. N\u014D reira, e hika m\u0101, ng\u0101 mihi nui ki a koutou, Joe, koutou Rangit\u0101ne, Kahungunu, ng\u0101 mihi nui ki a koutou. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, kia ora t\u0101tou katoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E[Therefore, friends, many thanks to you all, Joe, Rangit\u0101ne, Kahungunu, many thanks. Greetings to you all, be well one and all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022b015876e13ca4b0e9f497e4d83a5c889\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b015876e13ca4b0e9f497e4d83a5c889\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise and take a fairly brief call in support on this side for Te Rohe o Rongokako Joint Redress Bill, and, in doing so, I want to acknowledge the work that colleagues around the House on the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee have done in terms of progressing this bill up to this point. Colleagues that have spoken before me have touched on some of the issues that were raised, and certainly the process and the experience\u2014and the opportunity\u2014that that particular part of the process did provide for them as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EBills of this nature, generally, in this Chamber are moments of significance: moments of significance for our country, for our community, for iwi, and for our sense of identity. And so this particular bill, which will, as a mechanism, give effect to, essentially, all cultural redress that\u2019s shared between Rangit\u0101ne o Wairarapa and Rangit\u0101ne o T\u0101maki-nui-\u0101-Rua, and also Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki-nui-\u0101-Rua\u2014that\u2019s contained within the relative deeds of settlement; some that have been signed more recently than others. I do, however, want to acknowledge all of those that have played an active role to get this piece of legislation to this particular point in time, before the Parliament. I\u2019ve said that my contribution will be brief because it means that there will be no further waiting in terms of being able to pass this piece of legislation through the Parliament, and, on that basis, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5850ccb04d34b779ab9bdaa1906d398\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5850ccb04d34b779ab9bdaa1906d398\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, I\u2019ll straighten myself out, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b8cb2a9a78b4c85b155b1bda34a1a05\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: We haven\u2019t got that long, Mr McKelvie! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca04f829711a4390ab056362c7160a8a\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve participated in, I think, all three readings of this particular piece of legislation without having been any part of the discussions around the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, but I have listened carefully, however, to what\u2019s gone on in this House. I also have great respect for both Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu and the Rangit\u0101ne, and I think my role really here is to try and put a bit of perspective on this from my point of view. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI just want to say a couple of other things first, though. I thought that the Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations did a pretty good job of explaining the situation with respect to this joint redress bill. I think he also made another point which I want to emphasise, and that is that the redress in this bill can only be put into place with the goodwill of the councils involved, and I hope those councils enter into the spirit of this bill in the manner in which the bill has been agreed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EHowever, I said that I wanted to put my perspective on this, and I want to speak about the concerns raised by the Rangit\u0101ne T\u016B Mai R\u0101 Trust, and they were explained well, I believe, by the Minister, as I\u2019ve said. However, I come from a family that\u2019s been around New Zealand for quite a few generations now, probably eight or so\u2014maybe more if you count the females in the beginning of it\u2014and I can understand very well the trepidation with which iwi and M\u0101ori enter into these Treaty settlements, because, effectively, what they\u2019re trying to do is settle something that happened in the 1850s and 1860s. I know full well that in my own situation\u2014and I\u2019m the oldest survivor in my family now, which shows I\u2019ve been around a while\u2014it would be extraordinarily difficult to commit my family to a settlement of something that had happened in the 1850s and 1860s. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019ve the greatest admiration for all of those who participate in these Treaty settlement claims, because it\u2019s an extraordinarily difficult thing to go back 150 years and think that we\u2019re going to get some agreement on what happened 150 years ago. Whilst in a family like mine, we might get some agreement on it, we\u2019d never document it, because the moment you document it, it\u2019s fact, and you can absolutely see the trepidation with which these Treaty settlements are entered into. I think that for iwi or for all sorts of entities to enter into these agreements and document stuff that happened 150 and 160 years ago\u2014and that then becomes a perpetual settlement\u2014it would be extremely terrifying for those people involved, and I\u2019ve seen that, I guess, in my time. I\u2019ve spoken on a lot of Treaty settlement bills in this House and been a participant in a lot of the discussion around some of my local Treaty settlement bills, and I think that it\u2019s extraordinarily brave. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003ESo what I\u2019m really saying is that I think that, whilst there\u2019s some disagreement on the terms that might sit behind these two Treaty settlement bills, at the end of the day, the two Treaty settlement bills have been entered into in good faith by both Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu and Rangit\u0101ne, and they\u2019re going to have to sort the issues out. I wouldn\u2019t want the Crown interfering in my family affairs, and I don\u2019t think anyone else should have the Crown interfering in theirs, either. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003ESo I think that, from the perspective of this Parliament, the select committee has done as good a job as they could possibly do in what are extremely difficult circumstances, and I also think the participants in these bills do an admirable job of trying to resolve something that\u2019s bugged this country for nearly 200 years. I think that great credit goes to those people who are involved in this, and I say that from Parliament\u2019s perspective; this is the best effort we can make. I think that that\u2019s where we need to get to as a country, and I have great admiration, as I said, for those people involved in this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EAll I want to say is that I think we\u2019ve done our best with it, the Parliament has done its best with it, and I think the two parties concerned have done their best with it. They are going to have to get on and resolve the issues that are outstanding from here on. With that, I support the bill fully. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u002271309065e5b24c23a8154921798ce755\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271309065e5b24c23a8154921798ce755\u0022\u003EWILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai o te Whare, t\u0113n\u0101 koe, otir\u0101 t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa e noho nei i roto i t\u014D t\u0101tou Whare i te ahiahi nei. He h\u014Dnore t\u0113nei m\u014Dku t\u016B hei kaik\u014Drero whakamutunga m\u014D te p\u0101nuitanga tuatoru o t\u0113nei pire i t\u0113nei ahiahi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EKo taku mihi tuatahi ki ng\u0101 iwi o Rangit\u0101ne o Wairarapa, o Rangit\u0101ne o T\u0101maki-nui-a-Rua, o Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki-nui-a-Rua. N\u014D koutou t\u0113nei r\u0101. Ko koutou te kaupapa i t\u0113nei r\u0101 m\u014D t\u0113nei pire kei mua i te aroaro o te Whare i t\u0113nei ahiahi, n\u014D reira, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou. Ki a koutou i roto i te Whare i t\u0113nei ahiahi, ki a koutou t\u0113n\u0101 pea e whakarongo mai ana mai i te k\u0101inga, mai i ng\u0101 t\u014Dpito o te motu, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E[Greetings, Mr Speaker, and greetings to all of you here in the House this afternoon. I am honoured to stand as the final speaker for the third reading of this bill this afternoon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EFirstly, I wish to greet the tribes of Rangit\u0101ne o Wairarapa, Rangit\u0101ne o T\u0101maki-nui-a-Rua and Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki-nui-a-Rua. This is your day. You are the focus of the day regarding this bill in front of the House this afternoon, therefore I acknowledge you. To you, who are in the House this afternoon and to you, who are perhaps listening at home right around the country, greetings one and all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EIt is an honour and a privilege to be the final speaker on the third reading of Te Rohe o Rongokako Joint Redress Bill. Like the speaker prior to me, Ian McKelvie, I think I have spoken on this at the various stages, but I have not been intimately involved with this particular redress bill. I have subbed in and out of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee at times, but I just really want to acknowledge those members across the House who sit on the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, who have followed this bill through its various stages from first reading to the select committee process, second reading\u2014we didn\u2019t have the committee stage\u2014and the third reading this afternoon. I know I was listening to the contributions of the member Arena Williams, where she spoke about actually attending a hearing of the submissions at the marae, and it was lovely to hear her recount the most memorable parts of that visit and those submissions from\u2014I think it was about 21 submitters that she referred to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ELike others, I want to acknowledge the Minister, the Hon Andrew Little, who has now left, although he was here earlier for much of the debate. I want to acknowledge the Minister for the work that he has done. But also I want to acknowledge the contribution made by the Hon Judith Collins\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254f72faf6d3d418fb7faea9bf21b0dbc\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, don\u2019t worry about me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229122364b09ed49608d939821c662fdde\u0022\u003EWILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, well, she actually mentioned that this whole settlement has been through the previous Government, as well as this one, and I think the point that she was making is about the length of time that this has taken to get to this point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EWhat this bill does is it is giving effect to the joint redress that is in the various deeds of settlement that have been signed by the iwi. It is noted here that the deed of settlement signed between Rangit\u0101ne and the Crown was on 6 August 2016, and the deed of settlement signed between Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu and the Crown on 29 October 2021. And it has been noted in the contributions to the debate this afternoon that we have the Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu settlement bill third reading shortly, so it is important that we pass this bill, and then we are then able to pass that one. That will then conclude the settlements for all of the iwi involved in this particular one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI know that previous contributions have outlined some of the nature of the redress. This is to give effect to the cultural redress in particular, which is the overlay classifications, customary fishing\u2014I heard the contribution of Rino Tirikatene regarding that\u2014and also the vesting of cultural redress properties, and the Wairarapa Moana framework.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EThis will be a short contribution because I\u2019m the final speaker and we\u2019ve got everybody here in the gallery to witness the passing of this. So, once again, I just want to acknowledge the Minister; the officials; the negotiators; the iwi who, over a long period of time, have been negotiating this settlement; and that, with the passage of this legislation, we\u2019ll be able to give effect to the joint redress, and then we will have the final deed of settlement pass through legislation when the Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu bill passes its third reading. So, with that, e tautoko ana ahau i t\u0113nei pire pau te kaha [I wholeheartedly support this bill].\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ee9f880b097847d598fe035c102672f1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Te Rohe o Rongokako Joint Redress Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 109\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; New Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAbstentions 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\t\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000373\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000374\u0022\u003EWaiata\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224dbed7898eb94c89b8508505e094f7ea\u0022\u003EWater Services Entities Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221e06a1d4676f4b0fa98bc27eecd1f26a\u0022\u003ERecommittal\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u0022cfadc959523441f99fc75661ad2caa1b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cfadc959523441f99fc75661ad2caa1b\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the order of the day for the third reading of the Water Services Entities Bill be discharged and the bill be recommitted to the committee of the whole House to consider Supplementary Order Paper 310 in my name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022c49c1398e04a4c6e9c319b09e3c54bf3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c49c1398e04a4c6e9c319b09e3c54bf3\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for consideration of Supplementary Order Paper 310.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cabe0846e80941d5aebbfa33e0f445ac\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022276c0c26af5649d4943c567190642707\u0022\u003EDeletion of Subpart 4A of Part 6\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022052aaa76445a4f8db7d1451445f08dc0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022052aaa76445a4f8db7d1451445f08dc0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House has resolved to recommit the Water Services Entities Bill to the committee of the whole House to consider the Minister\u2019s amendment deleting subpart 4A of Part 6, set out on Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 310. Members, this is a limited debate, and all contributions must be relevant to the question of deleting that provision. The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment deleting subpart 4A of Part 6, set out on SOP 310, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00228d6adea47db54f488d73332e5a59daad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d6adea47db54f488d73332e5a59daad\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise to speak on Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 310. And isn\u2019t it ironic that we\u2019re back here in the House when only a few\u2014or literally last week, or the week before, we were in here under urgency undertaking a debate in the committee of the whole House stage lasting nearly 10 hours and a debate that went well into the night and bright and early in the next morning. But the fact is, we\u2019re here today because of, basically, a significant mistake that was made on that evening. And there should be lessons that are taken from what occurred at that point from the Government, in terms of the decisions that were made and the impact of that decision, in terms of the controversial nature of it\u2014and also, I think, what was a dangerous precedent in terms of our democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe Government has, apparently by accident or by mistake, defied a constitutional precedent that is a result of where we are today, now on an embarrassing backtrack. And so let\u2019s go back on some of the time line in terms of what led us to where we are. In December of last year, the concept of entrenchment was first raised by the parties of the House from a letter from the Minister. And on that basis\u2014as has been clearly made\u2014National did not support the Water Services Entities legislation, in general, and we did not support the entrenchment aspect, and therefore we opposed Labour\u2019s first proposal around this model.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EBut during this time\u2014and as we saw in the debate that occurred last week, in the committee stage, when the Hon Eugenie Sage tabled her Supplementary Order Paper 285 to entrench the privatisation provisions within this bill. But the challenge with that Supplementary Order Paper is that it reduced the usual percentage of 75 percent majority within this House down to 60 percent, and that was quite simply because it was known that National\u2014and, I\u2019m sure, other members of the Opposition\u2014would not support that Supplementary Order Paper or that entrenchment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EBut irrespective of that point, and irrespective of the public impression and the pressure around this, the Government used its majority to ram through this change. And I think there\u2019s a perception out there, potentially, by some members of the public, that this was slipped in under the radar. Well, I can be very clear\u2014and for those that were members in the Chamber and in here when that occurred\u2014that is absolutely false. In truth, the senior Labour Ministers and the PM missed this, because it was debated extensively in this House, and during that debate that evening, the Minister herself admitted, under questioning, that the Attorney-General had submitted advice against the entrenchment provisions. She said it in as many words, and I quote, \u201CWe know that while this particular SOP may not pass the constitutional threshold, there is a moral obligation of people who believe that privatisation should not occur to support that particular SOP\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EAnd during that call I made on the topic, I said, and I quote, \u201Cit\u2019s quite interesting where, in effect, against the recommendations of the Attorney-General, we\u2019re going to now imply this new trigger point, which is our moral obligation! Who cares what everyone else thinks; we\u2019re just going to come up with a new position! \u2026 [and] that\u2019s a real disappointment, but that is what is going on here\u2014and against the advice of other players. They know that it is not practical mechanism\u2014that, even an eventuality which would never occur, this would [not] be effective.\u201D It was very clear that despite the points made by the Minister that there was a moral obligation for the Minister to support this, they clearly did not communicate to the other members within their own party that this amendment was going to be voted for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo my question for the House today is: how did we get to this place\u2014how did we get to this place? I asked oral questions today to the Minister, in the hopes of an answer, and I wasn\u2019t satisfied in terms of that. So my questions are as follows. When did the Minister become aware of the amendment to push for a 60 percent entrenchment\u2014in particular, what correspondence did the Minister have before the Supplementary Order Paper was tabled? When were the Prime Minister and other members, senior members within the Labour Party, made aware of this Supplementary Order Paper? And what correspondence was entered into before making the decision of what occurred in the House that has led us to where we are today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EWe then saw an extended process of back and forward, and as played out further today between Ministers and other members of the Labour Party in terms of basically saying that they were not aware of what occurred on that evening. So what exactly occurred to lead to this screw-up? With all the talk of referrals to the Business Committee that occurred over the weekend\u2014and on Sunday, the Government finally admitted that it got it wrong. And I have a question about that: why was it that the Minister did not recognise that this was a mistake, even when Opposition members in this House raised it in the debate before the Supplementary Order Paper was voted upon, and Opposition parties voted against the Supplementary Order Paper\u2014and, when the Minister knew that the Attorney-General and other senior legal academics had raised it, why did they wait until as late as Sunday to be able to say that this was a mistake? Or was it only when they saw that the public outcry, in regards to this mistake, was clear\u2014they knew there was no way back? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThis has obviously raised a number of issues in regards to the outrage of Kiwis across this country, and it\u2019s worth noting why. The New Zealand Parliament can only change some of its statutes simply by amending these statutes, usually by a simple majority of the House of Representatives, and it can therefore amend the New Zealand Constitution. To prevent abuse of this amending power, a very small number\u2014only six statutory provisions are entrenched, and these provisions can only be changed by a 75 percent majority of the House of Representatives, or by more than 50 percent at referendum. All but one of these provisions are contained in the Electoral Act 1993, and one in the Constitution Act 1986. These are all constitutional provisions that protect us and our democracy from dictatorships and long parliaments; all are absolutely fundamental to our democratic rights. It is utterly inappropriate to attempt to entrench a particular policy outcome regardless of the support that it enjoys at a particular time. What is equally inappropriate\u2014indeed, it is cynical\u2014is to attempt to reduce the entrenchment threshold to a level that is lower than what has been used before at 75 percent, simply because it was inevitable that this would not be passed if it remained at 75 percent. All these facts were known leading in to that evening and that decision when that was voted upon, and opposed by National and also ACT at the committee of the whole House stage, when the Minister first raised it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo I go back to my questions to the Minister: how did we get to where we are today? This is not a new concept. Never in the history of this country have we seen an ability or an action by a Government to try and institute entrenchment around such public policy. This was well understood. So what does that say about this Government and their ability to make decisions and to lead this country into the future? Whether this mistake was deliberate, or simply one where Government of the day here did not care\u2014irrespective; it doesn\u2019t matter. The reality is the decision was made, the vote was taken, and we are now dealing with a colossal mess of having to reverse that change and that is completely inappropriate in a democracy such as ours in this country\u2014one of the earliest and longest-lasting democracies\u2014to have that occur.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u002284d094ed37d8408d9af0eb66b2efffde\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284d094ed37d8408d9af0eb66b2efffde\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E Today we have the grovelling back-down, but the stain on our democracy, the damage to our constitution, will remain. And that must sit on the conscience of the members opposite, who sought, under urgency, in the dark of the night, to entrench a policy position against all constitutional norms, against all democratic norms. Not content with confiscating community-owned water assets, not content with introducing a Byzantine co-governance structure without the support of the people, not content with riding roughshod over the hundreds of thousands of New Zealanders who have spoken out against three waters reform, of the councils up and down the country who have begged to maintain ownership and control of their assets, this Government thought it would push its votes even further. And it took the extraordinary, unprecedented, non-constitutional step of entrenching a matter of public policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225edf4d58eec4404db501c80e09c33829\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not non-constitutional, otherwise it wouldn\u2019t have passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261d30f4eee254014a0fe79100bcc435d\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: And these are not my words, Minister Hipkins. These are the words of the New Zealand Law Society, who said that it was undemocratic, constitutionally objectionable, and inappropriate. And be that on the conscience of the members opposite, that when given the opportunity that is how they sought to abuse their seats in Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022535ebcdcc86547b28b78a22c35039a54\u0022\u003ERachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Then why are we here?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022725db5c7cf9743a19e7177bf7a3c6aeb\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: And it\u2019s fine for Rachel Brooking to shake her head, but she should answer this question: who was it that directed that the whip vote in support of this measure? Because there\u2019s been a lot of ducking and diving on that one, hasn\u2019t there? First we had the Prime Minister trying to blame Minister Mahuta. Then we had Minister Mahuta let the media know that, in fact, this had been discussed by the caucus. Now we learn that, actually, it was the responsibility of the Labour members on the Finance and Expenditure Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ENow, I think my colleague Simon Watts has been charitable. He\u2019s accepted that this was a grand and incompetent mistake. I\u2019m inclined to see something a little darker going on here, which is that the members opposite thought they could get away with it\u2014they thought they could get away with it. That is the arrogance that has set in to this Government\u2014that they are prepared to thumb their noses at basic principles of our democracy if they think they can get away with it. Well, they got caught this time. They tried doing it under urgency, they tried doing it at night, and they got caught. And I say thank you to the constitutional experts and lawyers across the country who raised the red flag and said, \u201CNo, not in our New Zealand.\u201D, because we can too easily take for granted the principles that have underpinned the continuous democracy that we have in this country, the unwritten constitution which has been respected by blue Governments, red Governments, and all the bits in between. But it took a Labour-led Government with its majority to abuse those principles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EAnd today in the House, they attempt to turn back the clock. Well, New Zealand will not forget, because those who are prepared to act in an anti-democratic way when they think people aren\u2019t watching, they are people that can\u2019t be trusted. And this is not the first step. First they came for one person, one vote with the Rotorua bill. Then they decided to push on with three waters without public mandate or council consent. Then they went for entrenchment. New Zealanders will remember. And when you\u2019ve woken up and decided who you\u2019re going to blame, they\u2019ll be listening and they will remember that the only people to blame are the Labour Party, its leadership, and every member opposite.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u002256b4e370a4844d4a81d5c361bc93854d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002256b4e370a4844d4a81d5c361bc93854d\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. National obviously has privatisation on its mind. Some of the first things that Mr Watts said were that this Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) in my name attempted to entrench the privatisation provision. It did not; it sought to embody and embed in the legislation a commitment to public ownership of key public assets. I would like to note that this was about entrenching one clause in the bill, not the whole bill, as some people writing to me seem to think. It was one clause, and it reinforces the Green Party\u2019s commitment to public ownership of key three waters assets: the provision of drinking water, waste water, and stormwater. Water is essential to life. We could not vote without having water, so the Greens believe that this is of such importance, constitutionally, that the public ownership of three waters assets deserves entrenchment. It\u2019s certainly not the 75 percent supermajority that you have for matters in the Electoral Act, but it is the 60 percent majority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWe would have preferred that is wasn\u2019t debated under urgency, but, as members of the National Party well know, the committee stage is the only stage when you can table and have amendments voted on. And National Party members should also know that the Standing Orders indeed provide for entrenchment, provided the same majority in the House pass the provision the SOP was seeking to entrench. That happened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe Green Party has a long history of supporting assets being managed and operated in public ownership. As a first-term MP back in 2012, I and hundreds of others stood and gathered signatures on the citizens initiated referendum to keep our assets. Hundreds of people all around the motu signed that petition\u2014as many as a thousand people in a day. More than 300,000 people signed the petition. We got a citizens initiated referendum; 67 percent of people voting in that referendum\u2014more than 1 million New Zealanders\u2014voted to keep our energy companies, to keep Air New Zealand, and to keep Solid Energy in public ownership. What did the John Key National Government do? It totally ignored the result.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f44eb38ca42046819d2cd65882266aea\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Order! The member is getting too wide of the mark. The debate today on this SOP relates to the provisions contained in this SOP in the bill, and I\u2019d ask the member to confine her comments to that\u2014and anyone else in the Chamber who wants to make a contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5d6ace599314e078fe184a04864e4bc\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. In terms of the context, though, it was because, feeling as an MP, what was I doing in a Parliament where a simple majority of the Parliament could move to reject the views of such a substantial number of New Zealanders, hence the commitment to maintain public ownership of these assets. That\u2019s why the SOP\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a826f388c312497db8b27b9e441cbf80\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: No. I\u2019ve asked the member to confine her comments to the SOP. Now, I\u2019m also letting the committee know that that will apply to any other contribution today. So, again, I\u2019m going to ask the Hon Eugenie Sage\u2014have you stopped the clock? Yup\u2014to confine her comments to this SOP on the Water Services Entities Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224720f94b288f43199361a91a1a80498c\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Chair. It was just that previous speakers have spoken at length about the Electoral Act\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244c99faff7784ceb995550686f70deaf\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. The member won\u2019t dispute my ruling, but I do want to be fair to the member. The member has one minute and seven seconds to go. Again, I\u2019m going to ask the member to stick to the bill at hand and to the SOP that is being addressed by way of this SOP.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9bf6ac3fa274e47b402d19fac91edf7\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE\u003C/span\u003E: The Green Party won\u2019t be supporting the SOP, because a key way to guarantee a water-secure future for our children is to reduce emissions, is to protect the climate, and is to keep our three waters infrastructure in public ownership. This SOP removes that protection of entrenchment in the bill. It removes the entrenched provision, which would require any future Government wanting to amend the Water Services Entities Bill to get a 60 percent majority of the Parliament. The SOP would mean that a Government could just change that obligation, in clause 116, to maintain water services to not divest water services by a simple majority. For the Green Party, the public ownership and operation of three water services is essential to the way in which we operate as communities and to good environmental outcomes to ensure that our waste water is well managed, that discharges are of a high quality, and that we protect the sources of our drinking water and ensure that everybody has access to it. In our view, entrenching\u2014[Time expired]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u002221e41470cc6741fcafbbf2dad27493e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221e41470cc6741fcafbbf2dad27493e0\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister Mahuta appears to feel no contrition at all for being the first Minister in 168 years of Parliament to try and entrench her own Government\u2019s policies, creating a constitutional crisis in the process. For a moment, it was also the greatest win the Green Party had ever had in this Parliament, having failed to achieve anything else practical around transport or the environment, but it turns out that it was just another pyrrhic victory\u2014like declaring a climate emergency. In 168 years, with all that has happened in New Zealand politics, no Government has been arrogant enough to think that its own politics, its own policies, are so important that they should survive and endure longer than the next Parliament, which has the right to change the laws of New Zealand. Even if it\u2019s true that the Minister says that she was not aware or she didn\u2019t realise what would be the consequences of this particular amendment to the bill\u2014it was tabled during the committee stage\u2014the Minister should still take responsibility for what has been a constitutional disaster, which New Zealand had avoided for 168 years, until Labour and the Greens teamed up to deliver this outrage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, as ACT said in our reply to the letter that the Minister sent to ACT, this is a shallow political stunt, Minister, this entrenchment provision and this claim that it was only intended to protect these water assets from privatisation. ACT\u2019s been clear throughout the entire three waters process that our position is to return the assets to local government control. It\u2019s the Government that is transferring assets out of local democratic control into new statutory corporations that it is allocating governance\u201450 percent of the governance\u2014to unelected, appointed iwi M\u0101ori elites who will have the ability\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224849417e5734dbdb5ee7bb96e813fc8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Order! Order! Order! Order! I\u2019m going to say it again: the member is straying into matters provided for in other parts of the Water Services Entities Bill. I\u2019m going to ask him to confine his comments to the Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) which is in front of him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e25aeb8347284dfb9fa418217003d2f3\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. So for 168 years, every Parliament has been sovereign, which means that New Zealanders can vote out the Government which doesn\u2019t deliver, and replace the members in the House with new members and a new Government which will deliver for them. ACT fully intends to be part of that new Government. But I just want to come back to the provisions, which most likely will be repealed at the end of this committee stage, which are around the entrenchment of provisions against privatisation in the Act. So the section that\u2019s being repealed requires an obligation to maintain ownership and control of water services and significant assets, and it goes on to say that the reserved provision cannot be repealed or amended unless the proposal is passed by a majority of 60 percent of all of the members of the House of Representatives, or under a referendum.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, I do have a question for the Minister: what does the Minister understand privatisation to mean? Is this the partial sale, Minister, of a share in assets or a sale of assets, such as the Government\u2019s enabling legislation which will allow Kiwibank to be floated\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afc3611e89b34710866a153fb1de2b54\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: No. No. No. Sorry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f9a9699376f4ef382b604c652fdc7bb\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e268cf4c2a64da8822c4b7f22df3a3d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: No. No. The member is to confine himself to the very narrow question of what is contained in the SOP, and I\u2019m speaking to the whole committee again, and I\u2019m warning the member that he has strayed several times now. This is a very, very targeted and confined debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ea5b2bdf5f84545a9d68896198c4c68\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Just to be clear, I will confine myself to discussion of the clauses which are to be amended and the purpose of this proposed amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo if we look at Subpart 4A, the \u201CReserved provision\u201D, 206AA, the restrictions on amendment or repeal of certain provisions as they relate to ownership and control of water services and significant assets. The Minister will be aware that when I come to the House to ask questions, it is not in the pursuit of some flippant political objective. As a civil and environmental engineer, I speak for many people around New Zealand who are really genuinely interested in reforming the way water services are delivered so that we have better outcomes. So I wanted to ask the Minister: what does the Minister understand privatisation to mean? And I just wanted to give the Minister\u2014with your grace, Madam Chair\u2014a couple of examples around the mixed-ownership model, such as Air New Zealand or the big power generators like Genesis, which have 50 percent or less Government shareholding in what are otherwise\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f754929f3754b4b97d6fe6350c921e0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: No. No. Sorry. Again. Again, the member still has six seconds left, which I will preserve for him, but I\u2019ve already ruled that another member may not stray as far as that member is attempting to stray. So, in his remaining six seconds, I invite Simon Court to stick to the SOP in front of him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bea6f03c9fe461caa50937c1e289a43\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: The ACT Party will support this amendment on the basis that it restores constitutional\u2014[Time expired]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00225b0a329d90424bd3b50cedf2484f58b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b0a329d90424bd3b50cedf2484f58b5\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E Every now and then, New Zealand seems to go through a constitutional crisis\u2014call it a crisis, call it an inflection point. We had one in 1976 when Rob Muldoon turned up after the 1975 election and purported to suspend the provisions of the New Zealand Superannuation Act and said to public servants, \u201CNo need to pay anymore\u2014I\u2019ve decreed it.\u201D The High Court sorted that out in Fitzgerald v Muldoon and I\u2019m proud to say I have a copy of the judgment in my office. After the 1984 election, again, Mr Muldoon had to be sorted out by the National Party caucus, and that led, of course, to the Constitution Act 1986. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ENow we have a similar crisis where either through conspiracy or a cock-up\u2014and I\u2019m one that tends towards the conspiracy element of this\u2014the Government has sought to entrench a matter of public policy into New Zealand law. It was a constitutional collusion, a collaboration between the Green Party and the Labour Party\u2014and, frankly, I thought better of the Greens. I will tell you something for free: Rod Donald and Jeanette Fitzsimons would not have gone along with this constitutional chicanery. Here\u2019s the test: if the National Party had got up and said, \u201CThree strikes is fundamentally important to the National Government and the public policy of this country, and we\u2019re going to collaborate with ACT and put into law that the three strikes sentencing regime is so fundamental, so critical, to the confidence that people have in the judicial system\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa4c36c6c8d44f4aaa4587a1cb21bcd3\u0022\u003EHon Eugenie Sage\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Other speakers in the debate have been reminded to stay on the Supplementary Order Paper (SOP).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226141182893904033b979c9847a3adc52\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Can the member bring it back to the entrenchment in this SOP.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022134ff0f71d30481daf9e46db18ee4993\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: If the National Government of the time or a future National Government had done this, the Greens would be up in arms\u2014and I\u2019m responding specifically to what Eugenie Sage raised in her speech. They would be up in arms, and rightly so, because entrenching a matter of contentious public policy in law and making it more difficult for a future Government or future Parliament to repeal, is wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo my question for the Minister is a really simple one: what on earth were you thinking? What on earth possessed the Government to think that this was appropriate or constitutional? We have three particular concerns about this that I want the Minister to address. The first is the process point\u2014it was done under urgency, and a long stretch of urgency. It\u2019s not correct that the Government was trying to pass 24 bills, but they certainly were trying to get the House to deal with around 24 or maybe 25 bills at the time. And quite rightly it was a long stretch and there were people in the House for that long stretch, and it\u2019s not appropriate that something so constitutionally significant should be dealt with in a long stretch of urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe second point is the point I made around precedent. What precedent does entrenching a provision like this set into law? I made reference to other things that other Governments might consider to be important, and the constitutional scholars have rightly made that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThen the third point is the undesirability of having non-constitutional provisions entrenched into law, because there are just five or six parts of our constitution that are entrenched, and that\u2019s at a 75 percent majority\u2014nothing else, other than one provision of the Constitution Act 1986 and the Electoral Act 1993. It is undesirable, as the Law Society and various other public law commentators pointed out, to entrench non-constitutional provisions in legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI have a further question for the Minister. How did this come about? What we have at the moment is like that Spider-Man cartoon\u2014everyone in the Government is pointing at everyone else and saying, \u201CThey\u2019re to blame.\u201D Jacinda Ardern says this is Nanaia Mahuta\u2019s fault. Nanaia Mahuta says, \u201CIt\u2019s nothing to do with me. I\u2019m blaming the Finance and Expenditure Committee.\u201D David Parker says, \u201CI\u2019ve always been opposed to entrenchment.\u201D, and then everybody just wants to hang it on the Greens, and, ultimately, it was their SOP in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00223c12f59fc6124ea5aa0919118ab890d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c12f59fc6124ea5aa0919118ab890d5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Attorney-General):\u003C/span\u003E I want to, for a start, agree with some of the comments that have been made by the Opposition\u2014that I agree, and the Government agrees, that the entrenchment of the anti-privatisation clause is an inappropriate use of the entrenchment tool, which is why we have brought the amendment to the House today in order to fix what the Prime Minister has called and what the Minister in the chair has agreed was a mistake.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI want to deal with some of the exaggeration that we\u2019ve had from the other side. This bill didn\u2019t proceed through any more stages in urgency than it would have in ordinary business\u2014the second reading was done previously, the third reading wasn\u2019t done in urgency. It\u2019s actually a good example of why we should be\u2014in respect of contentious legislation\u2014slow to put a big bill like this through all stages of urgency. And because we didn\u2019t, it is easier to fix the mistake that was made in respect of this particular clause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe other comparison that was made by Chris Bishop was to say this was comparable to Fitzgerald v Muldoon: no, it\u2019s not. On that occasion, what happened was that the Prime Minister of the day broke the law. There\u2019s no law being broken here. Neither is it the same as the refusal of the Rt Hon Robert Muldoon to, effectively, let the Treasury cooperate with the incoming Lange Government in the face of a run on the currency which cost the country hundreds of millions\u2014if not billions\u2014of dollars. Arguably, you can say there would have been a serious constitutional mistake made if this Act was passed with this provision in place, but it is not going to be, because, a week after the mistake was made, we are fixing it. Now, that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd2b9d47de074be281fa1c0f680ea5ec\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: Only after significant pressure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220629bbb21c7b4b09b947c92d59909cef\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, actually, the Cabinet minute, which the media have referred to and the Minister herself referred to at question time today, records that Cabinet agreed that the bill should not entrench privatisation provisions in bills. So there is a mistake that has been made here. I can understand why the Greens promoted this idea and I can understand why even some members of the Labour Party were attracted to the idea, because we don\u2019t like privatisation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6eea6a0fc354b9d88f854cdf3cece1f\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: You were too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbaeb6da61b742e0bbd125ea26f18b84\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I wasn\u2019t ever attracted\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218ed39fc0b374adfbf8b1845e9354294\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you voted for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe93f531dc274242937bd6e4876f869e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I was never attracted to this idea and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022917191c1000c4be4adea4039ad481a03\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! I did not vote for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223afda9bf30274dc985890e03771a90b1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014I have stood against using entrenchment clauses for policy purposes throughout this process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENow, as Chris Bishop has said, there is very limited use of our entrenchment provisions in respect of constitutional norms that are long settled. It\u2019s very important that we keep it that narrow for a number of reasons. There are two main reasons: one is that this Parliament cannot bind a subsequent Parliament, that\u2019s how democracy works in respect of policy choices. If we get kicked out and someone else gets elected on a different platform, it is the right of the new Parliament to change the law. Whether it\u2019s important to us on privatisation of water issues or on tax rates or on labour relations laws, it\u2019s really the same, and there are only very limited exceptions in respect of constitutional matters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI also want to say why it\u2019s so important to guard that boundary around constitutional matters, because it\u2019s always been a moot point as to whether those constitutional entrenchments in respect of Electoral Act provisions or the Constitution Act work at law. You know, they have been upheld by convention now for 50 years or so, and it\u2019s fantastic that this Parliament has upheld that convention so that convention has not been abused for that lengthy period of time, but it remains a moot point as to whether those entrenched provisions could themselves be repealed by a simple majority of the Parliament repealing either the section that includes the entrenchment or the Act which includes the entrenchment. Now, that\u2019s not a legal issue that we ever want to approach in this House, and one of the ways we don\u2019t approach that, and the way we protect the entrenchment provisions that importantly sit in our constitutional legislation, is to not use them for policy processes, which, if we started to, you would find that a subsequent Government that couldn\u2019t get to the 60 percent majority would just come here and they would repeal the section by simple majority of 50 percent plus one. They could come to a future Parliament and repeal the entrenchment provision by a majority of plus one and it would probably be effective against a challenge through the courts because I can\u2019t see the courts wanting to intervene in respect of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe issue of whether the courts, after this long period of entrenchment of the constitutional provisions, would see it as something that is a convention that can be overridden by a future Parliament by simple majority overriding the 75 percent entrenchment provisions in the Electoral Act or the Constitutional Act is a debate that I hope never to see. I hope that we maintain the strength of that convention by not undermining it, and I leave open the moot point as to if a future Parliament did try and override those voting provisions by simple majority, I think there would be a contest before the courts and it would be a very, very interesting constitutional question for the courts to grapple with then. On the one side, you would have the people that would say that the legal effect of those clauses is not to bind a future Parliament, that they have political, maybe moral force in support of a convention not to abuse those provisions and always change them either by way of 75 majority or a referendum. And the referendum route was what was used to change these provisions, most recently, in respect of the MMP change to how you cast a vote in an election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s one view, that it just has a moral or political force that causes Parliament to always honour it; the other is that it does actually have some legal effect that can be given force before the courts. I hope in my lifetime that we never have to explore that boundary, and that\u2019s why I am grateful to the Minister for bringing this amendment before Parliament. Even though I understand the will of other people to want to guard against privatisation, from my perspective it is wrong in principle to entrench\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f245372dde74447fa03954712745f672\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: She spoke in favour of the Supplementary Order Paper (SOP). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022537989b4b2c8415da244fd576617e657\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve spoken in favour of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0852abd28654abfb9a748b81d66013c\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: She spoke in favour of the SOP.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233889076a1e04279bbaee0728d52efdf\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am speaking in favour of this SOP, which the Minister has rightly\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229506eeb16b9e43869b938f75ab40d9c2\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: The original SOP\u2014the Minister spoke in favour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e240af4b08346e7ab167c6f4a11d7ae\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, actually, the Minister wasn\u2019t in the chair when the SOP was put to the House, and that is perhaps a fair criticism in respect of the effective urgency, because we do sit longer hours and the Minister can\u2019t always be in the chair. So, you know, I put that on the record as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo, for those reasons, I\u2019m pleased that this mistake is being fixed. There is no constitutional crisis, this bill is being fixed before the third reading. It is not yet law. It is the debates that we have in this place, and, because of good work by members of the Opposition and members of the Government and members of academia, we are fixing the mistake that was made and protecting that convention properly in respect of constitution\u2014in respect of which there are provisions in the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act that ought to be entrenched.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022146b565693a049d0af18bb143746c1c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022146b565693a049d0af18bb143746c1c9\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. That was a very interesting speech from the Attorney-General. I suppose the fundamental question I have in relation to Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 285 is: is this SOP to fix a mistake or does it represent a change in policy? That is the question that I want the Minister ultimately to answer, because we heard from the Attorney-General that he didn\u2019t believe in entrenchment provisions. But it\u2019s my understanding that the Labour caucus did agree to entrenching at 75 percent and then they wrote to other parties trying to achieve that, and we declined. Then, it\u2019s my understanding that this SOP that we\u2019re trying to overturn occurred because having failed at 75 percent\u2014the clear rule of Parliament is that no party can entrench anything without the same percentage voting for it\u2014of Parliament to agree to entrench at 75, the next step was to get 60 percent of Parliament, which Labour and the Greens combined represent; they could do that and they did do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo the question I have for the chair is: was there a policy on the part of the Government coming in here to entrench at 60 percent or not? Or was it a genuine mistake? Or was that the policy? That is not clear and it\u2019s very fuzzy to hear the Attorney-General saying that he is not in favour of entrenchment, but it was clearly the policy of his party to entrench at 75 percent, if not at 60 percent. And so that\u2019s what\u2019s not clear there. What\u2019s happened is that the Labour Party and the Government voted for the entrenchment at 60 percent. Now, what\u2019s not clear is again whether that was a clerical mistake\u2014that they didn\u2019t mean to vote for it\u2014or not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba153f15fb1e4c97b77c90ed771a77be\u0022\u003EHon Dr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Chair. The member seems to be broadening the debate somewhat to previous debates rather than focusing on the SOP that is before the committee now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290f7bde30f494339a893ad57ab864138\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: I will ask the Hon Paul Goldsmith to come back to the SOP.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a77f2796583b4c7b9714de342be35f8f\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, well, my understanding is that it\u2019s quite legitimate to be talking about why the vote was cast and the series of events leading up to and post the vote and that\u2019s what I\u2019m talking about. So that\u2019s what I\u2019m trying to understand and unravel: was this a technical mistake of standing up and saying \u201CWe vote for it.\u201D or not, or was it a political mistake that they voted for it and then found out that, actually, everybody disagreed with them and then they went back on it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EBecause the reality is that if it wasn\u2019t for the constitutional experts putting up their hand and us recognising the importance of it, this would have been enacted. And there is a strong argument to say that the Government indeed intended this to happen and they were hoping that they were going to get away with it and they were keeping their heads down and everything was all quiet for a couple of days and they thought they might have got away with it and they were quite happy with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe alternative that they\u2019re expecting us to believe is that this went through and nobody in the Government noticed it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c9889f176ad4709bc642c12deae5e53\u0022\u003EHon Dr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Chair. The Chair prior to you, and I think you have also, reinforced that this is a narrow debate on the SOP in front of us now. The member continues to expand into a broader debate about the previous debate that was had in the committee and the merits of it. I would ask, respectfully, that he is brought back to the order of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cad9c47c45d143c5b6840c77d62668c2\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order\u2014thank you, Madam Chair. We\u2019ve had a few instances now where members from the Government and from the party that put the original SOP in have tried to close this debate down, and you will be well aware that it\u2019s your role only to decide on what is or is not within scope, and points of order, such as we\u2019ve seen taken by those members, are actually out of order and bring the House into disrepute by impacting or reflecting on your ability to rule the committee stage appropriately, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289ab60d016fc4aa98a9b69d9cbfe354e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m well aware that it is within my ambit to actually rule, and the advice that the Clerk had just given me was talking about the mistake or how we got here to this mistake that we\u2019re trying to fix today is actually within\u2014well, it\u2019s in order. So keep it limited. Don\u2019t stray too far. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225219ada17ec04ff0b8e02d3f150c79c6\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m trying to get to the bottom of the mistake. Was it a mistake? Was it a technical mistake or a political mistake or was it a change in policy? And that\u2019s what I want to hear from the Minister on. I want her to explain that, because, as I outlined, it seemed that the Government was keen on 75 percent entrenchment and couldn\u2019t get that over the line and therefore did vote for 60 percent entrenchment. Was it the case that they were hoping to get away with it and failed and then, once it blew up, they realised that, actually, New Zealanders didn\u2019t want these sorts of constitutional experimentations and they didn\u2019t want to move away from conventions that are well understood and they have back pedalled? They\u2019re quite different things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not clear at all from everything that\u2019s been said from the Attorney-General, from the Prime Minister, and from the Minister herself, as to what actually transpired, and I think it\u2019s a reasonable thing for the committee to get a better understanding of. So what was the intention? Did she, the Minister, believe when this was voted for originally\u2014the previous SOP\u2014that she had the support of her party to vote for it? It\u2019s a very basic question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u00227a6f8fb7961c4c1ba66db8fe2fb5c331\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a6f8fb7961c4c1ba66db8fe2fb5c331\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E For those listening to this debate, we are still in the committee stage of the Water Services Entities Bill. And, all the way along, the Government has been very clear that we want to protect the public ownership of water infrastructure assets as we move towards improving the services that people get to assure themselves that they\u2019ll have safe drinking water, better environmental outcomes, and more sustainable ways of financing infrastructure, recognising that households are facing a cost of living crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EBut let me come back to the specific Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) and what we want to ensure. Through this parliamentary process, we want to ensure that we are fixing a mistake, because, as the debate has transpired and I have made through the committee stages of the House, we have been unable to get cross-parliamentary support for a 75 percent entrenchment of privatisation, and we accept that that is why the Government did not put forward an entrenchment clause in the bill as introduced, as debated in the House. However, Standing Order 270 creates the opening which the Green Party utilised to be able to offer another threshold, 60 percent, to be able to re-put the consideration of an entrenchment threshold. At this point, I want to reflect on the Leader of the House\u2019s indication that, actually, perhaps the Standing Orders Committee needs to consider the basis on which entrenchment clauses should be used to give guidance to lawmakers for matters other than constitutional issues, of which the convention is a 75 percent threshold, and I think that is worthy of consideration. I hope other members in this House do too, because we do want to ensure that we are making good laws.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003ESo the mistake that is being fixed is that it is inappropriate as far as we can see to take a piecemeal approach to using an entrenchment clause for this particular purpose. So, once we ensure that the SOP can be supported across the House, we will, effectively, not use an entrenchment provision in this particular way without further consideration by the Standing Orders Committee to provide proper guidelines in the way that matters, other than those constitutional in nature could be considered. I hope that all parties will see fit to support the SOP.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u002222580242afe74944ac9140fb45638ec2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002222580242afe74944ac9140fb45638ec2\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. So I think we have got some clarity from the Minister that this was not a technical mistake\u2014they didn\u2019t accidentally vote for it\u2014but it was a political mistake that they voted for it. They wanted to have that Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 285 passed, bringing in a 60 percent entrenchment. They voted for it, but when the cat got out of the bag and people saw it for what it is, they realised that it was a political mistake, and they have reversed it after a week and a half of growing tensions across the country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWhy should people be concerned about these things? Why has it touched such a chord in the New Zealand voting public and New Zealanders as a whole? Well, I think we can offer some suggestions. This Government, frankly, has been quite experimental in its approach to the constitution. We\u2019ve heard the Attorney-General talk about electoral law being something that has elements of it that have been entrenched as part of our conventions, but this is a Government that has actually moved away from some fundamental things such as equal voting rights at local government without any support, and so people are rightly suspicious of the constitutional appropriateness of how this Government operates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EMost people would think that something as fundamental to how our democracy operates as equal voting rights would be something that wouldn\u2019t be changed without widespread support, but the Government has done that, so the people\u2019s antennae are up to what the Government is doing on constitutional matters. Then, in this broader three waters context, there have been very widespread demonstrations against it, so it\u2019s by no means a policy that\u2019s universally agreed to or admired across the country, and yet it has been pushed through regardless. Again, it has involved taking away properties that have been owned by councils and moving them into a central operation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EAgain, suspicions or nervousness or doubt has been widespread about the intentions of the Government in this operation, and so that, I think, is why New Zealanders have been concerned and why cooler heads\u2014and there does seem to be very marked division within the Government on these matters, because we\u2019ve just heard the Attorney-General saying that he is opposed to such entrenchments for policy matters. But, clearly, the Government decided to do it. They voted for it, and so he was obviously outvoted in that internal debate which led to the passing of the SOP that we are now trying to un-pass by Government actions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo there\u2019s clearly a division within the Government about how to handle these matters, but the political heads such as Mr Hipkins over there decided that the Government couldn\u2019t get away with carrying on\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4b49040f0c94005a1b21005e01e54b1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! The member will come back to this SOP. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230c66e301398487294be5df10caf2ac6\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Madam Chair. The only point I was making was that I was talking about the constitutional implications of this series of events that has led us to this very unusual situation, as\u2014I\u2019m sure we all know\u2014it\u2019s pretty rare that you find a piece of legislation introduced to the House, it goes through the first reading; it goes through the second reading; it goes through the committee stage of the House, where we go through a bill line by line\u2014and it took about 10 hours of debate. It concludes that debate, and then the next and final step is the third reading, and it\u2019s very unusual to have a bill brought back and pushed back to the committee stage to undo something. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThis is an unusual situation and one of constitutional meaning and understanding. So what we\u2019re trying to understand is how this happened, why it happened, and whether this is the sort of thing that we can expect to happen again and again under this Government. Do they push a little bit here and see if anybody reacts, and if they do\u2014if they\u2019re caught red-handed\u2014then they\u2019ll pull back and say it was a mistake, and will they try that again somewhere else? It\u2019s a fair question for all of us to be asking, and it is part of the reason why I think there is widespread distrust about the motives of this Government when it comes to how it operates at a constitutional level. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019ve raised those many questions. Was it a technical mistake or a political mistake? My assertion is that it was a political mistake, and they\u2019ve realised that and they\u2019ve sought to undo it, but I\u2019d be very interested to understand the Minister\u2019s impressions on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00222ab77414a96541439a32fc06591f3883\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ab77414a96541439a32fc06591f3883\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It doesn\u2019t happen very often, but there are moments when you realise that there are events that happened that are shameful. And I think this is one such event.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThis has been a shamble and it has been a shameful episode in this Parliament. I think, having coming back today to debate this, after many of us spent hours in here going through on this bill with much opposition not only across this House but from the general public, and to be able to have to deal with this issue today, I think just shows how\u2014what a shambles, really.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe issue with this is that we\u2019ve heard smoothing words from the Attorney-General, talking about how he opposes entrenchment. And yet, as my good colleague the Hon Paul Goldsmith\u2019s been saying, the Labour caucus clearly agreed to entrenching this in this legislation prior to this coming to the House. It just makes you wonder, how could Mr Parker, as the Attorney-General, have lost the debate in caucus when he\u2019s made it so clear just a few moments ago that he is opposed to and always has been opposed to entrenchment, where he is the Minister responsible for these matters in the House and to have lost that debate in caucus. And yet, this Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) was passed by the same Labour Government. It just doesn\u2019t make sense, and it just makes you wonder what in the dickens went on in that caucus, and it also may draw you to the conclusions that the comments from Mr Parker must\u2014or could\u2014be construed as being a snow job, because the comments do not reconcile with what\u2019s actually gone on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ENow, I also want to just turn to this issue. The Minister, in her contribution\u2014and I thank her for standing up and I hope she\u2019s going to stand up again\u2014is saying the reason why Labour\u2019s supported this SOP of the Greens was to protect the ownership of these assets. I just want to say that I believe that the Greens have been scaremongering this whole issue and just show how out of touch they are with their whole issue about privatisation and wanting to make sure that there were further provisions in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI think the first thing I would say here\u2014many people have sort of forgotten about this\u2014but in the bill, the provisions that this relate to are set out in Schedule 4. And what people don\u2019t realise is that first thing, if there is even the concept of talking about privatising the assets, it requires a 75 percent majority of the regional representative group who must, prior to coming to that view or that vote, have talked about and talked to all of the territorial local authority owners of the water services, mana whenua, and also the Minister, before they can decide\u2014and then they must decide with 75 percent approval.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe second thing is: the proposal to go out to the general public on it requires 100 percent approval\u2014or unanimous approval\u2014by all of the territorial authorities. So, many of these water companies will have so-called owners or territorial councils of up to 20, 22 councils. It requires unanimous agreement by all of those councils before you can even put a poll to the general public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EAnd having got through those two hurdles, it then requires the general public to approve by 75 percent. So the thought of privatising these assets is absolutely just about virtually impossible under this legislation. We\u2019ve heard the Greens, we\u2019ve heard Labour going on in these spurious arguments about \u201CNational wanting to privatise this asset\u201D. You can\u2019t even contemplate how it could possibly occur under the current bill that has been passed through and rammed through by the Labour Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThis bill\u2014this SOP\u2014is a shocker, should never have occurred, and here now we\u2019re seeing Labour backtracking. And I\u2019ll tell you why it\u2019s backtracking\u2014nothing to do with David Parker, or whatever, thinking it\u2019s the wrong thing\u2014it\u2019s because the general public and the media have suddenly said, \u201CThis is wrong\u201D and it\u2019s a political back-down. It\u2019s shameful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022bfd0fde5d73041d38d6be8b881e4c1a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bfd0fde5d73041d38d6be8b881e4c1a4\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, for the opportunity to take a call on this Supplementary Order Paper. I think the words need to be said: never again. Never again should we be in this House doing what this Government has done to our constitution and to its constitutional provisions around entrenchment. I\u2019ve heard the rhetoric from members on the other side where they\u2019re trying to call this a mistake. They\u2019re trying to say it was a mistake that this even got into the bill in the first place. It was a mistake that they voted on it, it was a mistake that it was there, and \u201CWe\u2019re just cleaning up a mistake.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EWell, I ask the Minister: where did this mistake begin and when did they know it was a mistake, if it actually was one? Are they thinking that New Zealanders are so foolish to think that this Government just operates on a whim? They just go, \u201COh well, this Supplementary Order Paper, we\u2019ll see how we\u2019ll vote on this one today, shall we? We\u2019ll just vote\u2014we might vote Yes on this one from the Green Party, we might vote No for that one from the National Party.\u201D No, this is not how this Government operates. They are deliberate, they are intentional, and they know what they are doing. The Minister knew full well what she was doing when she authorised the Labour Party to support the Supplementary Order Paper from the Greens. And so I call out the language which we are hearing from the Government, from the Prime Minister, from the Minister, from others, saying this was just a mistake because mistakes like this\u2014one, they shouldn\u2019t happen; and secondly, they don\u2019t just happen, particularly when it comes to such important provisions around entrenchment in our legislation. We\u2019ve seen the commentary from the constitutional lawyers, the Law Society, and others who have called out this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe speech from the Hon David Parker\u2014he almost sounded like a true believer. It almost sounded like he was the guy actually speaking against the Supplementary Order Paper that was installed in the first place, when he actually voted for it to be put in the bill. He voted for that Supplementary Order Paper to go through. And there he is with all of the arrogance of this Labour Government to say \u201CActually, no, I disagree with that approach and it shouldn\u2019t happen.\u201D, and to give us a lecture\u2014a lecture\u2014as to why this shouldn\u2019t happen again. Well, shame on this Government for putting this country through this. They say, \u201CWell, it didn\u2019t happen.\u201D Well, it didn\u2019t happen, because they were caught out. They were caught out by the public of New Zealand, the constitutional watchdogs, the media, and the National and ACT parties who stood up against this constitutional outrage and said, \u201CThis is enough, this is not right, and it should stop because it sets an incredibly bad precedent.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EI say never again, because never again should be what all members of this Parliament are saying. But I note that the Green Party, in their righteousness\u2014superiority, should I say, their righteous superiority are still intending to support this Supplementary Order Paper because they think it\u2019s the right thing to do. Well, what National Party policy should be entrenched that you don\u2019t like, Green Party? Because that\u2019s the kind of question that the Green Party needs to think about in supporting this Supplementary Order Paper, because there will be a range of policies that you don\u2019t agree with from across this House, which, if those parties entrenched those political views, the Green Party would be calling out a constitutional outrage, and rightly so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EBut where\u2019s the consistency? The Green Party used to stand up in this Parliament, and they used to be the conscience of democracy. They used to stand against urgency being used, they used to stand against the constitutional outrage that we\u2019re seeing here. But they\u2019ve lost all of their principles, and this vote that they\u2019re about to push tonight just shows they had none in the first place. And so I call out the Green Party for their moral superiority which has completely, completely gone tonight. I call out the Government for saying that this was just a mistake, because it clearly wasn\u2019t. I ask the Minister to take a call and explain to the House and answer the questions that my colleague the Hon Paul Goldsmith has very articulately placed on the Chamber, to say: when did the Government make these decisions? Was it a political mistake? Was it a legal mistake? Was it just simply an error in terms of how they decided to vote? And when were those decisions actually made?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EI think my colleague Simon Watts had a question which was not answered in question time today, which was: did Cabinet authorise the Minister to make those decisions, and, if so, when? The Minister needs to answer those questions and put the actual facts out there for the public because they\u2019ve had enough. They\u2019ve said, \u201CNever again.\u201D I hope we never see this happening again in this Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u0022843eede0ccf4443982481b98b1d55ab5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022843eede0ccf4443982481b98b1d55ab5\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I think it\u2019s really unfortunate that the National Party is just trying to score political points. They\u2019re not engaging with the substance of the issue. The Minister has noted that the Standing Orders Committee is going to consider the whole issue of entrenchment and whether there should be public policies which merit entrenchment\u2014whether we could review the 160 years that we\u2019ve gone without entrenching anything else except electoral law. But from the contributions from the Opposition, they won\u2019t engage with that substantively at all. All they\u2019re interested in doing is trying to score political points about process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EAnd the other thing that\u2019s really disappointing: thank you, Mr Bayly, for pointing out the detail of clause 116 and the process in Schedule 4 and, yes, that does provide some protection at the regional representative group against any proposals for divestment\u2014it ensures that there is thorough consideration of that. But the whole point of my Supplementary Order Paper (SOP), which the Minister\u2019s SOP will repeal, was to entrench that provision so that a simple majority in a future Parliament couldn\u2019t pull that provision and just not require the regional representative group to go through that 75 percent support for divestment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo National is not engaging with the substance of what their views are about the future of three waters assets. They have said that, heaven forbid, if they get into Government, they would repeal the legislation, but what do they want for the future of three waters? Because again and again they\u2019ve just focused on process and not the substance of what the original SOP was about, which was to ensure that it is not easy for a future Government to sell off our water assets to the highest bidder, that it is not easy for a Government to ram through provisions which would reduce the consideration by the regional representative group and the requirement for a referendum. Our water assets are too precious to risk, and the original SOP made sure that any decision about their future management carried the support of a large number of New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo National has signalled that it\u2019s not going to engage in any genuine way with discussions about what issues of public policy could be protected by entrenchment, and nor, as it seems, is it going to respond in any positive way to a letter from the Government which suggests that their attitude to three waters is, again, to not be at all worried about future privatisation. That\u2019s why the Green Party won\u2019t be supporting this SOP, because we think that this issue of three waters assets is of critical public importance and reaches that threshold.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022545b4362d9514ba2a5ecbe5df186f22a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022545b4362d9514ba2a5ecbe5df186f22a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the next member, I\u2019d like to warn everyone that this debate is beginning to be repetitive. I\u2019m not hearing any new points being raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022f104d99b064f4893847d9182bd3ee690\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f104d99b064f4893847d9182bd3ee690\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Well, look, you make a great point, Madam Chair, that it\u2019s important that we focus on those aspects which the Supplementary Order Paper proposes to repeal, and that is the entrenchment provisions, section 206AA the reserved provision, Subpart 4A, which relates to the obligation on the Water Services Entities Minister to maintain ownership and control of water services and significant assets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo, Minister Mahuta, I\u2019d like you to respond to a couple of specific questions. Through ownership or control, you\u2019ve stated a number of times that the water services entities will not be in control of the assets and that local councils will retain control, but they can\u2019t sell them, they can\u2019t leverage any debt against them, they can\u2019t generate revenue from the assets. So the challenge, Minister, is to understand whether these provisions, which apparently prevent privatisation, and which the Minister has tabled an amendment seeking to repeal, are actually to stop the water services entities from returning assets to councils, from which they will be taken. So, Minister, could you please give us a response to that in a moment? After this Supplementary Order Paper has been passed, will that allow the water services entities to return water assets to councils, if they wish to in the future, even if this legislation is passed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EAnd, Minister, I want to ask for your understanding of this concept of privatisation, which this Supplementary Order Paper relates to, because, Minister, you\u2019ve written to the ACT Party today\u2014and, I understand, to other parties\u2014asking will these parties support a motion or the concept that these assets should not be privatised. So, Minister, I want to clarify what \u201Cprivatisation\u201D means to you. Does it mean a public-private partnership (PPP) where, say, KiwiSaver, ACC, and other institutions invest shareholders\u2019 or investors\u2019 funds in public assets? And that could be schools, such as seven schools and two corrections facilities established as public-private partnerships, including Auckland prison; the schools PPP bundle; Hobsonville School; Auckland South Corrections Facility, Wiri Prison\u2014all established with private capital. So, Minister, did you intend that private capital\u2014investors\u2019 funds, people who wanted to invest in infrastructure\u2014would be excluded from doing so by the provisions of this entrenchment which prevents ownership and control of water services and significant assets?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo, now, Minister, do you support, by repealing this entrenchment clause, here in this SOP, the inclusion of private capital and institutional\u2014like ACC and super funds, my KiwiSaver fund, for example\u2014investing in water infrastructure? All kinds of organisations want to be able to invest in infrastructure, it has fantastic long-term guaranteed rates of return for investors and it also provides the additional capital that\u2019s needed where the taxpayer or the ratepayer doesn\u2019t have any more capital to contribute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, you\u2019ve made the point a number of times that the reforms, which relate to this reserved position and this proposed amendment, actually would allow water services entities to achieve balance sheet separation. Minister, I\u2019m assuming that that allows for the inclusion of private capital investments in water service entities. So, Minister, will you confirm that the Government and the Minister are open to private capital being invested in water service entities and water services infrastructure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002219150beeeb5a40c88eaaf2d0d634a328\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219150beeeb5a40c88eaaf2d0d634a328\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I want to get back to the point around why this vote was cast and the events leading up to that point. I reflect back on that evening in terms of when the vote was actually cast on Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 285, and the Hon Kieran McAnulty was actually the Minister in the chair at that point of the evening because, as the Hon David Parker noted, the Minister here was not in the chair. The Chair of the committee was Greg O\u2019Connor and the whip on the Labour side was Duncan Webb. So it is no\u2014I mean, I think, to rule out in terms of who was in the room at that point when this was passed through, and when this was voted upon, those were the individuals that were in the chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI want to go back to Hansard from the Hon Nanaia Mahuta, Minister, when we were questioned about this exact Supplementary Order Paper, and I quote: \u201CWe accepted the advice of the Attorney-General, which says that there is a high constitutional threshold, and that came from the Crown Law Office. Select committee members will be well aware of that advice.\u201D So the Minister articulated on the evening when we were talking about this Supplementary Order Paper that she was fully aware of the fact that the Attorney-General had provided advice in regards to the constitutional threshold of the entrenchment provision that\u2019s on the table. It was also acknowledged that that advice had come through from Crown Law and that the select committee members were aware of that advice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe Finance and Expenditure Committee, as part of their deliberations, pushed back strongly around the entrenchment of 75 percent. I go on and quote: \u201CThere is a high constitutional threshold to be reached in order to put such a threshold within legislation.\u201D The Minister was fully aware on the evening when the Supplementary Order Paper was tabled that this constitutional matter that was in front of us was something that is absolutely breaching a normal constitutional threshold. And I go on and quote: \u201Cand often it\u2019s on constitutional matters, of which this bill is not.\u201D The Minister knew that the Water Services Entities Bill was not a bill in which entrenchment measures would be appropriate. And I go on and quote: \u201Cand it would be a novel approach to include an entrenchment clause.\u201D The Minister was aware of the fact that while the entrenchment clauses did not meet constitutional thresholds, there was a clear\u2014and I would go as far as saying premeditated, i.e., the issue had been thought about in advance, it had been considered, and when the Minister made the comment that it would be a novel approach to insert this entrenchment order, the Minister knew exactly what was going on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe definition of a mistake\u2014and this is the language that has been used by the Government around this issue\u2014is \u201CAn act or a judgment that was misguided.\u201D What does misguided mean? It is a decision that is based on faulty judgment. I have just categorically quoted from the Hansard that occurred on that evening\u2014before that Supplementary Order Paper was voted on by the Minister, the Hon Kieran McAnulty, who was a Minister in the chair\u2014that the issues and regards that were noted by the Attorney-General on this evening were all known. All of these points were known.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn taking a simple definition of what is a mistake and not a mistake: this was not a mistake. This decision\u2014in the Minister\u2019s words, \u201Cand it would be a novel approach to include an entrenchment clause.\u201D, I go on: \u201CWe know that while this particular SOP may not pass the constitutional thresholds, there is a moral obligation of people who believe that privatisation should not occur to support that particular SOP.\u201D The Minister was using the opportunity to put in play a new provision in regards to our constitution, one that completely conflicted with the history of this country, our constitution, and our democracy. The Minister, as I have quoted, knew what was going on. There are other members of the caucus that were fully aware in terms of what was and when the vote was taken. This was not a mistake. And so that is in Hansard, that is recorded, and we are now here looking to try and reverse a decision that they knew was wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u00224fdd0c054d03405d9b37321a5589bb4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224fdd0c054d03405d9b37321a5589bb4f\u0022\u003EWILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002277fa250fbd2a4449b45ca70a1b404d0a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277fa250fbd2a4449b45ca70a1b404d0a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment deleting Subpart 4A of Part 6 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 310 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e20a6a602c164f4b8dd78c6f9fb5c139\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 104\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; New Zealand National 30; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000507\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000508\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3d33781f17345f88867eff08c0f443a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3d33781f17345f88867eff08c0f443a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Water Services Entities Bill and reports it with amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b56b13387ade479aa91c9bd660333b6d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b56b13387ade479aa91c9bd660333b6d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, it\u2019s time for me to leave the Chair for the dinner break. The House will resume at 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002211d1f227ee2a4eccb30cbac0b6800f9c\u0022\u003EElectoral Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002254db3438aca74b2bb1a35da29435037e\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022 data-id=\u0022aef76f063b794b848ffed1c1c55765de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aef76f063b794b848ffed1c1c55765de\u0022\u003EHon KIRITAPU ALLAN (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Electoral Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022162ca265a5f040408c451c1202d22d05\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a3bb0d20c324faa9b6c9c4363b0a667\u0022\u003EHon KIRITAPU ALLAN\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Electoral Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EMr Speaker\u2014Madam Speaker; aroha mai\u2014this bill makes a number of changes to the Electoral Act 1993.These changes will increase public trust in the transparency of the rules around political donations and loans and extend the eligibility of overseas voters to enrol to vote in the 2023 general election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EAs I stated when I introduced this bill, it is clear New Zealanders want greater transparency about how our political parties and candidates are funded. Seventy percent of respondents to a recent Victoria University of Wellington survey indicated that they did not trust the current political funding framework. In simple terms, voters want to know, and have a right to know, how we as politicians butter our bread.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EThe changes in this bill will increase public disclosure about party funding by providing more information about the sources of political funding. This bill will increase transparency and therefore trust in our democracy. It is my hope that when Victoria University of Wellington next conducts its survey of public attitudes on our public funding framework, the levels of public trust will have increased, due in some small part to the provisions in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EThese provisions include the crucial step of lowering the threshold for disclosing the identity of party donors from $15,000 to $5,000. The new $5,000 threshold represents a careful balance between transparency, privacy, the compliance burden placed on parties, the right to freedom of expression, and sufficient donation revenue for parties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EOther changes in this bill include disclosure of a donor\u2019s identity within 10 working days when their donations to a party exceed $20,000 during election years, and disclosure of the proportion of total party donations that are in kind\u2014non-monetary donations. This bill also requires additional information to be disclosed for the very first time. Under the bill, the number and total value of non-anonymous donations under $1,500 will need to be disclosed, meaning that for the first time New Zealanders will be able to see a complete picture of all donations received by political parties. In addition, candidates will be required to disclose loans received from unregistered lenders for the first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003ECoupled with these changes to political donations and loan settings, the bill also requires all registered parties to disclose their annual financial statements. This important step towards greater transparency about the financial affairs of parties was supported by over 85 percent of respondents to the same Victoria University of Wellington survey from last year. This will allow the general public to view the full income, expenditure, and asset base of parties for the very first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EThe bill also addresses risks identified in the High Court\u2019s judgment in the New Zealand First Foundation case. These risks pose a threat to the integrity of our electoral system and public trust in that system. This bill addresses those risks before we head into election year in 2023.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EThe bill as reported back from select committee incorporates the Supplementary Order Paper I introduced to address those risks into the bill. The bill now clarifies that party donations include any donation made to a person or group of people if there are reasonable grounds to believe such a donation was intended for the benefit of a political party. The bill also creates an offence for anyone who receives a donation and fails without reasonable excuse to transmit it to the intended recipient, being either a candidate or a party secretary, within 10 working days, as the Electoral Act currently requires.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to acknowledge Ginny Andersen, the chair of the Justice Committee, and the members of that committee for both scrutinising the proposals in the Supplementary Order Paper and their sensible approach in agreeing to incorporate the Supplementary Order Paper into the bill as reported back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EAdditionally, the bill extends the overseas voting eligibility periods for the 2023 general election from three years to six years for New Zealand citizens and 12 months to four years for permanent residents\u2014the amendment in response to the COVID-19 travel restrictions that prevented New Zealand citizens and permanent residents living overseas returning to New Zealand with the required time frames to be eligible to enrol to vote. This extension, of course, only applies for the 2023 general election to address those anomalies. The independent review of electoral law can consider permanent arrangements for overseas voters, and we look forward to their findings in due course towards the end of next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EAgain, I want to acknowledge the Justice Committee for its careful consideration of the bill, and, of course, all of those members of the public who made submissions. The committee received 42 submissions. The majority of submitters were supportive of the bill\u2019s objective to support the delivery of and participation in elections to maintain public trust and confidence in our electoral system. Submitters in support of the bill observed that increased transparency will force politicians and donors to reflect on how the public would view their financial relationships and noted that it is likely to be more difficult to work around the rules designed to protect the system. I believe that this can only be considered a good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EThe committee recommended some changes to the bill to improve its operations. Specifically, the committee has recommended that all provisions in the bill, excluding those relating to overseas voters, would commence on 1 January 2023. The committee has also recommended inserting a transitional provision into the bill to specify that returns for party donations for the 2022 calendar year should be completed according to the requirements in the Act as at 31 December 2022. These amendments clarify that all reporting requirements in the bill relating to political donations and loans only apply from the start of the 2023 calendar year and do not have retrospective effect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EThe committee also recommended amending clause 27 of the bill so the requirements for registered parties relating to annual financial statements apply only to annual financial statements for financial years beginning on or after 1 January 2023. This amendment also ensures these requirements do not have any retrospective effect and means that parties will have time to prepare their annual financial statements for public consumption from 2024 onwards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EI look forward to working with the members of other parties during the remaining parliamentary stages for this bill. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002207225532654e4991ba0da1c68a3d16ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207225532654e4991ba0da1c68a3d16ef\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f984e1af35bc412786829e906e3bbdb3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f984e1af35bc412786829e906e3bbdb3\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker, and it\u2019s my pleasure to speak on this, the Electoral Amendment Bill, although National is opposing this bill, and we\u2019re sad that the Government has chosen to bring about changes to the rules of the game when it comes to the election of parties and the way that democracy operates in New Zealand. They\u2019re changing the electoral rules without any notion of bipartisan support when it comes to financing of political parties. They\u2019ve just decided to use the bare majority that they have available to them and they\u2019re changing the rules, fundamentally, to suit them, and we don\u2019t think that\u2019s a good approach to electoral reform and we don\u2019t support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo what, fundamentally, are they doing? The biggest change in this legislation is to reduce the public disclosure threshold for donations for New Zealanders who freely decide to give political parties money\u2014they\u2019re free to give as much as they like, but over particular thresholds, their identity needs to be made public. It has for the last 15 or so years been set for party donations\u2014so people donating to the Labour Party or the National Party or the Greens\u2014at $15,000 for more than a decade. So over time the value of that money has eroded. And for electorate contests, such as in this by-election in Hamilton, or in Epsom where I\u2019m based, or wherever, it\u2019s set at $1,500. That is because candidates are only allowed to spend $30,000 in their electorates, so $1,500 is a significant portion of that\u20145 percent. But the $15,000, of course, is the proportion of the total amount of money that a party can spend, which, if you stand in all the seats, like the National Party does, can be over $3 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo the proposition is somehow that there is something dangerous about somebody donating, say, $14,000 anonymously to a party as part of a $3 million fund-raising exercise, and that is supposed to be a problem. So they haven\u2019t really identified what the issue is. What they have identified is that they want to make it fundamentally more difficult for parties to raise funds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ENow, I don\u2019t like to upset anybody with stating the obvious, but the reality is that political parties need money in order to campaign\u2014it\u2019s not a free exercise. You have to buy hoardings, you have to get radio broadcasts, you need to send letters, you need to do a whole bunch of things, and it\u2019s expensive. I don\u2019t know if you people have noticed, driving around you\u2019ll see hoardings up\u2014they\u2019re not cheap. And so it costs a lot of money to campaign\u2014nothing like it costs in the United States of America, where they spend hundreds of millions and billions of dollars on campaigns. Here they\u2019re relatively cheap, but it does cost money. So that money has to come from somewhere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ENow, there\u2019s a couple of basic choices. Either New Zealanders can volunteer to give money to parties that they support, or the alternative proposition is that the State seizes that money and gives it to political parties in order for them to campaign. And the fundamental direction of this bill and the Government policy is to move more and more of the funding of political parties away from voluntary donations to compulsory acquisition by the State of money to give to political parties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ENow, no system is perfect, and I\u2019m not going to stand here and say that the current system is perfect. Of course there are problems in any way that you arrange the funding, but the only point I\u2019d make is if you make it a State-funded political parties operation, such as the trend and the direction of this legislation, well, that creates its own problems. Most notably it\u2019s great for incumbent parties that have been around and they\u2019ve got numbers and they get the money. It\u2019s much more difficult for newcomers to crack into the system, notwithstanding the fact that it actually ultimately makes politicians less accountable, because actually persuading somebody to vote for you is quite hard but persuading somebody to give you some money is even harder. And it means you actually have to listen to people and engage with people and to listen to what they have to say and go out, meet people, have functions, fund-raise, all those sorts of things, which gets very tiring. It\u2019s much easier\u2014as the Greens would no doubt argue\u2014just to get the State to pay for it, and to get taxpayers to pay for it, and then you don\u2019t have to be nice to anybody; you can just do whatever you want. And that seems to be the approach taken by the Greens. But that\u2019s by the by\u2014we\u2019ll let them explain their policy and we\u2019ll get to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo the only point we\u2019re making is\u2014and this has been a day of great, I suppose, constitutional moment, where we\u2019ve had the Government come in and try and entrench a piece of legislation. And they\u2019ve had to backtrack on that and we\u2019ve had a bit of a debate about that, and hackles were raised about their movement away from constitutional norms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e9fa8d90a404090aaf1461ef059fbb9\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Come back to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f282434ef154758a8a88625669c4c39\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m just creating the context, and the context is one where people are quite rightly suspicious of the way this Government operates when it comes to electoral law and constitutional matters. They\u2019ve moved away from such principles as equal voting rights, they\u2019ve been fiddling around with the entrenchment. They got caught out and they\u2019ve backtracked very fast. Here, when it comes to the financing of electoral parties and running elections and campaigning, they\u2019ve been brazen. They\u2019ve just said, \u201CWell, we\u2019re going to change the rules to suit us.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ENow, the other way, of course, that political parties can operate\u2014yes, they can raise funds from voluntary people handing over their cash or they can seize it from taxpayers and use it for campaigning. The third option, of course, is to get people to work for you for free. And that is, I suppose, the approach that most of the Labour Party takes. They get their union friends to campaign for them, and that\u2019s fine, nothing wrong with that. But it all needs to be associated with how campaigns are funded and accounted for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EAnd so the rules that we have in place should be agreed by everybody and they should be followed, because of course it\u2019s very important that everybody should have trust and confidence in the political system that we operate. I totally agree with the Minister when she said that it\u2019s important that New Zealanders should have confidence in the conduct of the political system and the electoral rules. That\u2019s why we have rules and that\u2019s why we on this side stick to the rules and why transparency is important and we should have thresholds. And we have thresholds. We\u2019ve got thresholds exactly where they should be, perfectly legitimate political debates, and this Government has made no good case for substantially reducing those thresholds. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo people listening in might say, \u201CWell, what\u2019s all the fuss about? Why do people worry about being named as donators to particular political parties?\u201D Well, I can come up with a couple of good reasons. One is that quite a lot of people operate businesses and quite a lot of those businesses make a living by doing contracts, sometimes with Government departments. And they fear if they were to give money to the National Party, for example, and the Labour Party happens to be in Government at the time, they might get in trouble or there might be blowback or they may fail to get the contracts. Now, the Government, of course, will deny this, but people are worried about that, and they\u2019re quite rightly worried about it. So they\u2019d prefer not to have it publicised that they\u2019re giving money to the National Party, because they fear that the people on the other side might not be pleased and there might be repercussions for them. That is one of the reasons why\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022575300e024cd4ee88cbb5c1a0908749c\u0022\u003EDr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. The member is making allegations about the conduct of the Government and Labour Party that suggest an improper motive for their actions, which is clearly unparliamentary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edcf3d09a68a4008b12ec29be413edf6\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll ask Paul Goldsmith to stick to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b865bcbede5247f3998fb5a11c2d561f\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. And that was complete nonsense from the opposite member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff4a8e8dad364fbb989af0f54540577b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: OK, all right. The member will continue without reflecting on the ruling from the Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022234a67e9fc2e4297bfc7c5ac4f0f7a32\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I accept your ruling, Madam Speaker, entirely. The only point I was making was that there were some stories that came from the Gaurav Sharma episode which showed that member\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223dd498b0f4f04129a925ce8b8b608923\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, no. Just as well I\u2019m in a good humour, so the member will continue his speech, focusing on the Electoral Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219d1d3b707b244f69d152e1f8ca23179\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. So, rounding up, in summarising, what we have here is a piece of legislation that the Government has introduced. It\u2019s about the rules that cover the conduct of how we fund-raise for political parties. We do need to fund-raise. The only question is whether that is done on a voluntary basis by politicians and their parties\u2014particularly the parties\u2014persuading people to support them voluntarily, or whether we make it more and more difficult for that to happen. Inevitably, the alternative is taxpayers being forced to fund political parties. Now, neither is perfect, and at the moment we have a bit of a hybrid. There is State funding for political parties for broadcasting, but primarily it\u2019s fund-raised. The Greens want it all publicly funded, Labour seems to be halfway, and we\u2019re standing up for parties actually not being funded by taxpayers. We haven\u2019t seen any good arguments put forward, particularly as the Government has set up an independent panel to review all matters relating to electoral reform and they haven\u2019t waited for the report from that group. They\u2019ve just gone out and rushed through legislation that, as I say, we believe is designed to skew the system in favour of the Government. And, of course, when we come back to the point that the Minister was making at the start, it\u2019s all about trying to improve credibility and public confidence in the system, and my point is that this doesn\u2019t help.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022662721e4c06a46b196a29a36f0c1fd2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022662721e4c06a46b196a29a36f0c1fd2e\u0022\u003EGINNY ANDERSEN (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity of taking a call on the Electoral Amendment Bill. Look, I was really confused by that member\u2019s contribution. I really did not know where that was coming from. I felt like I was transported to another time warp or something. I felt that it\u2019s important that if there are any people listening at home, they\u2019re made quite clear about what\u2019s happening. I think the best way to convey what this bill aims to achieve\u2014which was clearly missed by the member the Hon Paul Goldsmith, who\u2019s just resumed his seat\u2014was when the Minister of Justice came before the Justice Committee. And under the new Speakers\u2019 rulings, there\u2019s a requirement there that, if wanted, the Minister responsible for a bill can actually come to the committee and speak to the bill at an early stage. This is a new process that Minister Allan has taken up, and it was great to hear from her and to understand her views on what the importance of this bill is at this point in time. And she made it plain and clear to the committee that it\u2019s important that New Zealanders know where their bread is buttered when it comes to political donations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EAnd that\u2019s exactly what this bill does. If people are donating to a political party, the general public deserve to have the trust and confidence in their democratic system to know where that money is coming from. And who would want to hide that? So that\u2019s a question that Paul Goldsmith was unable to answer in his 10 minutes that he contributed to the House just earlier. So this bill addresses the risks and the issues that are highlighted by not having a greater amount of transparency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe bill does three main things, and those are all important things that I think are good to outline. Firstly, it makes changes to the political donations and loans settings, which I\u2019ll speak to a bit further; secondly, it requires registered parties to disclose their annual financial statements, which is also important; and, thirdly, it temporarily extends the overseas voter eligibility for the 2023 general election\u2014clearly something that Mr Bishop\u2019s cottoned on to because he shot off overseas to try and round some up. And let\u2019s hope that there\u2019s some parliamentary purpose in that if anyone ever takes a look at it. So in relation to the donations and loans\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbccba5c1b2c4760aae7b89787d0758b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! I\u2019m going to be very even-handed in this debate, and a point of order was raised about impugning motives to a political party. And I\u2019m going to apply the same encouragement, as I did previously to the member, to stick to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293db5ba3aae740b3b0ff4774a3f9b20f\u0022\u003EGINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. In relation to the donations and loans framework, the bill\u2019s main changes include lowering the public disclosure threshold for donations and contributions to registered political parties from $15,000 to $5,000, amending the reporting requirements for donations to registered parties received from the same donor exceeding $30,000 by reducing the threshold to $20,000, but only requiring disclosure of such donations within 10 working days in a general election year. It also requires registered parties to report the sum total value of donations separately as monetary and in-kind donations in their annual returns. It requires registered parties to report the number and total volume of donations under $1,500 that are not made anonymously, it removes the requirement for audited party donations and loan returns for registered parties who receive total donations of $50,000 or less annually and who have no loans, and, finally, it requires candidates to publicly report on loans received to support their campaign. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIn the consideration and the submissions received in the Justice Committee, we also received a Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) that has been included in this bill. It clarifies the definition of \u201Cparty donation\u201D in section 207(2) of the Electoral Act to ensure a donation made for the benefit of a party is considered a party donation. This bill addresses the risks that have been identified in the High Court\u2019s judgment in the New Zealand First Foundation case. These risks pose a threat to the integrity of our electoral system and public trust in that system, and this bill addresses those risks before we head into election year in 2023. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EFor this bill, we received a number of submissions in the case of that, and it was good to hear all those people as they came forward. Over two separate periods, the committee received a total of 42 submissions\u201441 on the bill and one submission on the SOP. And we heard some really good oral submissions from different parts of our community who wanted to have their say in this bill. The majority of submitters were in support of the bill\u2019s main objective, to support the delivery of, and participation in, elections, to maintain public trust and confidence in our electoral system. It\u2019s really important that we stress the fact that people need to know what\u2019s in and behind an election to have confidence in it. We have a great system in New Zealand where we have high levels of participation in our democracy. In order to maintain that and continue that, it\u2019s important we have a good level of transparency. I\u2019m really proud of a bill that has increased the level of transparency that we currently have around submissions, and it\u2019s looking to strengthen our democratic system here in New Zealand, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022 data-id=\u00222b115db72ef34799bd498ef87ef819ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b115db72ef34799bd498ef87ef819ab\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. As is known, the National Party is opposing this bill. The member who\u2019s just addressed the House, Ginny Andersen, indicated in the earlier stages of her speech \u201Cif there\u2019s anybody watching this debate\u201D. I acknowledge a kaum\u0101tua I met at \u014Chinemutu in Rotorua on the weekend\u2014at the posthumous medal ceremony awards for the 28th M\u0101ori Battalion wh\u0101nau\u2014Pita Anaru, who does watch Parliament TV. Ng\u0101 mihi ki a koe e kaum\u0101tua. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003ETurning to the bill, I acknowledge the kaum\u0101tua, because there are many of our elderly who value, along with the rest of New Zealand and New Zealanders, the importance of democracy, and democracy is about New Zealanders\u2019 rights and the protection of those rights. The concern that the National Party has about this bill is that it\u2019s well known that the amendment is to make a number of changes to the Electoral Act 1993 but it\u2019s also well known that the Labour Government has initiated a review panel, and that review panel is to report back next year, looking at the wider issues of electoral reform.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003ESo there\u2019s concern as to why\u2019s there\u2019s such earnest and haste again from this Labour Government to rush through this legislation when there is a review panel, in the same way that there\u2019s been the royal commission of inquiry into abuse in care and that the Government chose to rush through in haste legislation by dismissing and dispensing with the wider public opinion and view. That is the concern that the National Party has. This Government talks big about transparency, this Government talks big about valuing the rights of New Zealanders, and again here we have another piece of law that\u2019s being rushed through, dispensing with the fact that this Government has engaged a review panel to report back and is going to ignore that and the value of that work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EParliamentary colleagues in the House who have sat on the Justice Committee have addressed in detail this bill. I was not a member. My colleagues Paul Goldsmith, Mark Mitchell, and Simon O\u2019Connor did sit on the Justice Committee and as a result scrutinised with the other 41 submitters to this bill, with nine oral submissions heard, the detail of the bill. And as a result, the New Zealand National Party has in that Justice Committee report, which has been reported back to the House, a differing view and opinion, and the concern is, effectively, again highlighting the fact that we are far better to wait for the review and to do the electoral law reform all together\u2014all substantively rather than piecemeal, and this is a piecemeal approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EIt seems that the primary purpose of this bill is to make it harder for parties to raise funds. We\u2019ve heard in the House tonight my colleague Paul Goldsmith mention that those donors who willingly donate do not wish to have their privacy breached and have it disclosed\u2014who it\u2019s from, how much it is\u2014and the threshold has been lowered in terms of the amounts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EThe detail of the bill, this being the second reading, will go to the committee of the whole House. Understandably, there are likely to be anticipated Supplementary Order Papers, which, for the benefit of the public listening in, means an amendment to amendments that have been proposed at select committee and reported back to the House this evening, being spoken to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003ESo the detail\u2014in the six minutes that I have left\u2014is that it\u2019s proposed in this bill to change the donations and loans framework, which includes lowering, reducing, the public disclosure threshold of donations and contributions to political parties from $15,000 to $5,000. It\u2019s quite a significant threshold reduction. Also, it amends the reporting requirements for donations received from the same donor in excess of $30,000, either in one lump sum or in total over the preceding year by reducing the threshold to $20,000 but requiring disclosure within 10 working days\u2014within 10 working days; under the pump\u2014only in a general election year. So perhaps that\u2019s a redeeming factor; perhaps not, bearing in mind there is a review panel to report back next year before the general election. Go figure! Also, the bill requires the annual return of party donations to separately state the total amount of monetary and in-kind donations received. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EWhat I picked up, which is of some interest\u2014again, because this has some bearing in terms of my family situation\u2014is that, at present, New Zealand citizens who are living overseas must have been in New Zealand within the last three years to be registered as an elector. I have an adult son living overseas, who hasn\u2019t been home\u2014he tried to get home during COVID. But part of the reason for an amendment within this bill is recognising the fact that so many New Zealanders were locked out during the COVID times and not allowed back. So provision is made and there\u2019s an extension in terms of their having to have been back to New Zealand within the last three years\u2014that period is extended out. So that would be a benefit for the purposes of many hundreds of thousands of New Zealanders, my son being one of those. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EThat amendment acknowledges the effects of the COVID-19 pandemic on international travel and therefore would apply only to the 2023 general election. Now, we know that the COVID-19 impact is going to be long term. This is a long game, and here we are. We\u2019ve got a Government that for some reason sees that there\u2019s urgency and is in haste, despite a review panel being set up by this Government to look at the wider implications of electoral law reform, and is going to rush this bill through. It does not have the support of the National Party, and that is an anticipation of not having the support of many hundreds of thousands of New Zealanders. I do not commend the bill to the House, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022 data-id=\u0022453f92ab0ff745cca55e2243399b84d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022453f92ab0ff745cca55e2243399b84d9\u0022\u003EDr EMILY HENDERSON (Labour\u2014Whang\u0101rei):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Speaker. I rise to take a brief call on this bill, but first to perhaps bring a little transparency to my respected colleague across the House as to the nature of the way in which this bill has progressed, because I am a member of the Justice Committee and was lucky enough to get to work on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EThere has been nothing in haste about this bill. It has proceeded in the normal way, and the reason it\u2019s proceeded in the normal way is actually for the benefit of precisely the sort of people that Ms Harete Hipango was talking about: people like her son.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EIf we do not pass this bill in respect of the timeframes that people are able to be out of New Zealand and still cast a vote, then people like her son will miss out on that opportunity next year. If we wait to go through the wider and deeper matters that are being traversed in the review, then people like her son will miss out on the important\u2014and, in fact, vital\u2014act of contributing to our democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EAnd if there is one thing that we have learnt in the last couple of years over COVID\u2014over watching what has happened overseas\u2014it is that democracy deserves every act of protection and strengthening we can give it. Because while we may regard it as inviolable and forever and everlasting, it is, in fact, fragile. We need to give serious consideration at all times to how each and every next election coming up can be better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EWe want this bill in place because we are concerned that numbers of people\u2014especially over the last couple of years\u2014have begun to lose faith in democracy. We are aware of surveys\u2014for example, in 2021 by Victoria University of Wellington, as the Minister said\u2014which show that 70 percent of the population do not trust the way in which parties are funded. They feel that the people paying for us may also be paying us to do their bidding. We know that that is not so, but the thought that they could consider that that is a possibility: we have to act. We need to make sure that there is absolute clarity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EMy mother always said that if you find yourself too embarrassed to tell someone what you have done, then perhaps it is an indication that you\u2019re doing the wrong thing. Just a little thought for those who are scared to announce that they are funding certain political parties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003ENothing wrong with transparency; very important for democracy; very important for our next election. Let\u2019s pass the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022 data-id=\u0022e18d426a6b6f40be93aa7ec3fc76a1f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e18d426a6b6f40be93aa7ec3fc76a1f9\u0022\u003EGOLRIZ GHAHRAMAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Democracy is a human right, and it is in lots and lots of ways the one right that underpins them all. Taking account of the rights of those whose rights haven\u2019t always been central to the workings of this Parliament is what that one vote per person democracy that we hold so dear is all about. This bill is about ensuring that that \u201Cone vote per person, everybody\u2019s voice counts\u201D model of democracy is at least some way close to being real, and it\u2019s not necessarily all that close to being real if it\u2019s all about the donors, that big money\u2014I\u2019ll say corruption\u2014that people out there do fear when they think about the way that money operates in politics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EWe had, I think, a moment just a couple of speeches ago that was, to quote the Hon Paul Goldsmith\u2014because he says this a lot\u2014a chilling moment for democracy, but I don\u2019t think he realises that we was actually the cause of it. He said, in articulating why it\u2019s important for members of this House and politicians out there in New Zealand to receive big money, secret big money, that it\u2019s about being accountable\u2014accountable to big, secret money; not voters but donors who donate secretly with no limit. That was the policy being championed through the auspices of accountability. That isn\u2019t the type of democracy that most New Zealanders think we have. That\u2019s not the kind of democracy that would ever really deliver for, for example, beneficiaries, or, as we know if we look overseas, for climate action, for labels on cigarette packets for health, for the type of mining and deep sea drilling that we want to ban in this nation, for the environment, or for marginalised communities like migrant workers. We want a democracy that delivers for all of those groups. We want the decisions being made in this House to be strong, not the kind of accountability that prioritises big, secret money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EThe way that this bill came about is because, some might remember, I had a member\u2019s bill ambitiously named the Strengthening Democracy Amendment Bill that did suggest limits to donations and in particular limits to secret donations. That didn\u2019t proceed through its first reading, but this bill is related to that work, because last term when first I raised the issue of donations reform and was told repeatedly by various Ministers that it wasn\u2019t a priority because it wasn\u2019t an issue, something happened. Three of the five political parties in this Parliament got into some form of trouble around donations. It became clear that New Zealanders needed assurance that we are not beholden to big money, that we are not beholden to secret, big money, that the rules are clear and transparent, and that our democracy is functional. It was through that work that this bill came through. We heard from the public, and just last month we had the first, in the living MMP democracy, piece of comprehensive research delivered by Lisa Marriott and Max Rashbrooke into political donations in New Zealand. They spent a year interviewing the general secretaries of all of our political parties, big donors, members of Parliament past and present, and they came out with recommendations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EOne of the findings that is in line with the accidental admission that Paul Goldsmith made earlier, is that the big donors did feel entitled to influence as a result of their donations. They said that in their interviews with the researchers. They said that they gained special access, through successive Governments, to Ministers, to leaders of the Opposition, and that it was expected that that would result in influence on policy. It\u2019s on the record.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba3e37557fa04b22af35eb7c0f613de3\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The member is skating very close to contravening a number of Standing Orders and Speakers\u2019 rulings relating to imputing impropriety in the House. I just want the member to be very mindful of not making any allegations of impropriety within the context of this House and the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6f867f908d74899a6bb74e8fef4430d\u0022\u003EGOLRIZ GHAHRAMAN\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022630ecd80ee09423090ce443733c458d0\u0022\u003EMaureen Pugh\u003C/span\u003E: Including corruption.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d44a976e96d8464d8de83af73bc65159\u0022\u003EGOLRIZ GHAHRAMAN\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not about what anyone in here did\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5508d51477043b5bbf1e6489ff8809a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. Yes, the member is right; the word is \u201Ccorruption\u201D, but also the imputation of impropriety. I\u2019m very happy to have a yarn with her later.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b957e097dde3434fa4dc5cf301c427a7\u0022\u003EGOLRIZ GHAHRAMAN\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. So I come back to the bill, a bill that aims to ensure that New Zealanders have trust in our system and that we know who is taking a stake in our democracy, and that if there is influence we at least know who they are. It is about transparency. But I will come back to that piece of research because it did recommend limits to secret donations\u2014and the limit they proposed was in line with my bill; it was $1,500, not as high as this bill proposes so we\u2019re not quite there yet\u2014and it also suggested that we need limits on donations altogether. Actually, to say that we have this sort of gentlemen\u2019s agreement where New Zealand doesn\u2019t have that kind of political interference is one thing, but to leave us vulnerable to the kind of politics that has come about elsewhere in the world, like in the United States, because there has been no limit, means that that culture change is very much on the table here. It could happen here, and it may or not have in different ways, but we are vulnerable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EThis bill is a good bill in that it at least acknowledges the problem. It acknowledges some of the research and acknowledges that the Electoral Commission came to the Justice Committee in the general election review and said that it\u2019s really hard to investigate whether there have been donation breaches because the limit in terms of transparency is so high that people can slip donations and they just don\u2019t know and can\u2019t do it properly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EThis bill makes it easier to enforce the law. It makes it easier for New Zealanders to know what\u2019s in fact happening in terms of political donations, but it doesn\u2019t go far enough in terms of what the research shows. One of the things that is left out is an actual limitation to donations. So we don\u2019t have a limit. I don\u2019t think most New Zealanders would expect that that would be the law. I hope that through the select committee process we hear from some of the researchers, some of the people who were involved in giving evidence to researchers, and some of the groups that came forward, and that that finding, that New Zealand\u2019s democracy is still vulnerable, becomes more clear and we can engage more meaningfully with what those limits need to look like, not only in terms of transparency but in terms of getting big money out of our democracy altogether and coming back to the kind of accountability that democracy should be about. And that is accountability to voters, to communities whether or not they can afford $5,000, or $15,000, or $35,000, and whether they want to be on the record or not, it\u2019s about those conversations. It\u2019s about saying that actually beneficiaries, solo mums on the benefit, migrant workers, and the disability community all deserve the same level of influence in our politics as those big corporate donors that want to remain nameless and want a limitless stake in our democracy. I do commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u00225f4452da9378401cb32a9b1c178bf18b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f4452da9378401cb32a9b1c178bf18b\u0022\u003ENICOLE McKEE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on behalf of the ACT Party to oppose this bill, the Electoral Amendment Bill. Before I get stuck in, so to speak, I\u2019d just like to start off with something a bit more positive than what I\u2019m going to end with, and that is to acknowledge the work of the Justice Committee, and also of the Minister who attended our select committee to answer questions, especially around the Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) and other aspects of this bill. It was great to be able to have a Minister within the select committee available to answer our questions and our queries. I also would like to acknowledge the 42 submitters on this bill: 41 of them were for the bill itself, and, once the SOP came in, we actually had to go back out for submissions for which we received one. Out of those submissions we had nine people that appeared and gave us oral submissions as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EBut I have listened to some of the debate here this evening, and I do have to fight back, I guess, on some aspects of it. One member from the Labour Party said that this bill has proceeded in a normal way. I disagree that it\u2019s proceeded in a normal way. In fact, I believe that it\u2019s been rushed, because we are going through a process before a review has even been completed. We\u2019re going through this process before we\u2019re finishing the year off so it can be implemented before the next election. This is rushing law, but I guess when law is being rushed the way that it is recently, maybe it doesn\u2019t feel like it if we give it an extra few days as opposed to trying to do it all in a week. It\u2019s wrong that one party, having won in an election, is going about changing the electoral laws without the consensus of other parties, especially when we\u2019re talking about electoral laws\u2014changing it so that it advantages themselves but nobody else within the House. So I think that this is nothing more than a grudge bill. I mean, why else would you put this legislation through in such a shortened time, especially with that review that is due next year. I mean, what\u2019s the hurry? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a07a44109ab4594be3aeebf1471b2d9\u0022\u003EHarete Hipango\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s become par for the course. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206154a8941d04ec88be5f4aed23aecda\u0022\u003ENICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that\u2019s right. It has become par for the course; under this Government it certainly has. But the hurry that we know is upon us is the 2023 election, and we can see why they\u2019re trying to rush it through, because the writing is on the wall. Labour looks like they\u2019re going to be out next year. The numbers are falling, they\u2019re on their way. Perhaps they wondered, \u201CHow could we make electioneering difficult for the Opposition parties? I know, let\u2019s say that people who do donate more than $5,000 to a political party only do it for political gain, and they need to be outed. We need to name them.\u201D No doubt cancel them in the left woke wayward way that Labour chardonnay socialists like to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThe current public disclosure threshold is $15,000. What political influence can be bought for $15,000? I\u2019ve heard a member from the Green Party actually say that there is no accountability for anything over that, when there is. There always has been. She mentioned the word \u201Ccorruption\u201D. I just can\u2019t see how any political party in New Zealand can be made corrupt by a $15,000 donation. And if Labour are worried about that figure\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022452e8c52f1044d54a15fc0d5dfcede07\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Just stick to the bill. There are some certain phrases which are unparliamentary and shouldn\u2019t be said in this House, because that could well lead to disorder. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229eaf2bf7c5c6482ea0e4cb851423192e\u0022\u003ENICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. If one would be worried about a figure of $15,000 one should ask why\u2014is this something of concern that a particular party may be alluding to? Perhaps they can\u2019t raise $15,000 themselves in donations, and maybe the thought is that other parties should be restricted in that ability as well. But the way that this Government wants to, perhaps, out some of the donors is to name them. And the thing is, as well, if you\u2019re raising funds within an electorate the figure now goes down to only $1,500 dollars. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s nothing that anyone is trying to hide in the Opposition parties. We want donors to be able to donate, to be able to do so lawfully, and also to be able to keep in confidence what they give to other political parties. Some may be donating to more than one party. Some may be donating a bit more to one party over another. They should not be outed over that. There\u2019s nothing for anyone to hide here. We expect that private and confidential information should remain just that, because they are private people, because they don\u2019t want to be stigmatised for their political support, because they don\u2019t want to be closed, cancelled, or suffer potential retribution for the financial support that they offer, and because they have every right to their autonomy without fear of cancellation or retribution for who they wish to support in politics. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EPerhaps they said, \u201CLet\u2019s make it harder for the volunteers that work in these Opposition parties; let\u2019s make them report a whole lot more, because there is no real purpose for it, but let\u2019s make it difficult for Opposition in 2023.\u201D This bill touts that it\u2019s all about transparency and improving it for the voters\u2014for whom, and for what purpose? Is it for just two political parties that are currently sitting on the other side of the House who get the least amount of financial support to know and then potentially target funders of opposing parties? This bill means that people either won\u2019t financially support or will not support the party of their choice because their rights to autonomy are eroded by this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThis bill restricts freedom of expression and party funding. Everyone loses here. I thought that the Government wanted more people to be involved and to participate in elections. If that\u2019s the case, why are there restrictions being placed on them? Why delve into where and how people spend their hard-earned cash, the money they have in their pockets after the Government has taken their share of it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EPeople donate because they are free to do so here in New Zealand. It\u2019s called democracy. Democracy has freedom of expression attached to it. Now this Government are wanting to put conditions on it, and when Minister Jackson told us democracy has changed, maybe this is what he was talking about. I\u2019ll call it what it is; it\u2019s a bill to try and defund the current Opposition parties from raising funds for the upcoming election. It\u2019s been pushed through quickly so it\u2019s in place for the 2023 election, and I believe it\u2019s because Labour are very worried about their position. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EWriting legislation so that the people\u2019s choice can be corrected before the next election is wrong. If that\u2019s not what the Government are doing, then support my SOP to amend the start date for reporting to 31 December 2023. I\u2019ll bring it to the Table on Thursday. Think of the volunteers and the unnecessary work that is being placed on them heading into an election year. Prove and show to New Zealanders that this isn\u2019t a bill about stopping the freedom of expression to play politics into the Government\u2019s own hands, but a genuine attempt at transparency. They won\u2019t because it\u2019s not. It\u2019s about damage control now that Labour know that they\u2019re on their way out. It\u2019s about damage control because Labour knows that the Opposition parties are better at fundraising than them and they want to try to reduce the flow of funding that will be advocating to get this Government out. Government interfering in people\u2019s lives, interfering in their decisions\u2014you used to stop at the front gate, now you\u2019re going through the front door. The Government is going through the front door and not stopping at the gate. They are going into private homes. There is no adequate policy justification for this bill and there is no consensus across Parliament. Big Brother needs to get back out the gate and stay there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u002232ab48ae851b46898024f5ce5cc546e8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002232ab48ae851b46898024f5ce5cc546e8\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Look, it\u2019s been a bit of funny business in this debate, and I will take us through what this bill actually does, because I feel a bit sorry for the punters at home who are a bit confused. But first, I want to offer the House some reflections. I\u2019m a relatively new member, and I really enjoyed working in the Justice Committee and on this piece of legislation with Nicole McKee, who\u2019s just spoken. I wanted to reflect upon this idea that she\u2019s spoken about, about there not being consensus on this bill. Nicole McKee and I are people who try to find consensus; we love to get to get our heads together in select committee and think about the people out there who we are here to serve as parliamentarians, and to think about the good ideas that we can do, and the things that are holding people back and that we can take away. There\u2019s nothing I love more than having those discussions with Nicole McKee, and finding consensus on that basis\u2014this isn\u2019t what this is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EOur emotions are high tonight because this is actually not about the people out there, is it? It\u2019s about us. We are trying to have a discussion about consensus around this House, on something which affects us very personally. You know, if we tried to find consensus around this House on things that just affected us, we might get together and put our pay up; we might get together and give ourselves a really nice retirement package, or extend our benefits. Consensus around the House is about the people out there and the expectations of New Zealanders, on us, to serve them. It\u2019s not about what suits us in an election year, and so I\u2019m comfortable with the fact that this bill serves the interests of people out there. It gives them more confidence in our electoral system. It makes us stop and think about who is involved in politics in New Zealand, and those are good things. These are things that a brave Government advances, and I\u2019m really happy to be able to commend this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ENow, my first point is something that the Hon Paul Goldsmith raised, which might be confusing everyone. He said New Zealanders can volunteer to give money or the Government seizes that money to give to political parties\u2014that\u2019s not what this bill is, is it? That\u2019s not actually what we\u2019re discussing in Parliament tonight. The Government is not seizing anyone\u2019s money to give to political parties, and we\u2019re not stopping people from volunteering anything. All this bill does is that it lowers the public disclosure threshold for donations and contributions to political parties from $15,000 to $5,000, which means that somebody giving over $5,000 simply needs to give their name, and we need to know who they are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI heard one argument only advanced by the Hon Paul Goldsmith about why this would be a bad thing\u2014why simply naming someone was so egregious. It was because of this idea that people don\u2019t want their names published because the Government will take retribution. Now, in relation to corporate donors, I actually think it\u2019s a good thing, and I think most New Zealanders do think it\u2019s a good thing that around the board table everyone stops and says, \u201COh, will this be a good look for us? Will it be a good look that we\u2019re putting more than $5,000, more than $10,000, maybe more than $100,000, into a particular political party with a particular political persuasion and point of view? Will people like that; will our customers like that; will the people we serve like that? Will this do our brand any good?\u201D That\u2019s probably a conversation that I want them to have, and I think members on the other side have shown themselves who they are for when they come to this House and say, \u201CActually, no, we don\u2019t want those conversations to happen. We should be able to have lots of money going into political parties which has no name attached to it.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI think the ideas here are quite simple\u2014that people deserve to know who is involved. In the Labour Party, that means that when we get door knockers along to volunteer for us\u2014when they put up their signs\u2014their names, their faces: they\u2019re all known. You cannot volunteer for a political party in that way without putting yourself out there, putting your credibility on the line, and thinking to yourself, \u201CIs this a good look that I\u2019m involved with this party? Do I want people in my community; my neighbourhood, my neighbours to know that I\u2019m aligned with this political party?\u201D You have to make those calls. There\u2019s no way that you can do that anonymously, and there\u2019s no way that you can give more of your labour than 40 hours a week. But in a situation where we have people giving large amounts of money without their names attached to it, they have a huge advantage over those people who put themselves out there with their names and their faces. I think that should be evened up for the good of transparency and people knowing who\u2019s involved in politics. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI want us to find consensus on these issues. I do think it\u2019s important that we agree on really important principles like this. But I am comfortable with us setting a very sensible threshold of $5,000 for this kind of disclosure, and that\u2019s why I commend this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00221d78c97b05e44568af37cf56f0009106\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d78c97b05e44568af37cf56f0009106\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: I call Simon Watts\u2014five minutes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00223bb095b0393b40fe8c28669de73cdd20\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223bb095b0393b40fe8c28669de73cdd20\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I tell you what: listening to that speech from a fellow classmate of the class of 2020, Arena Williams\u2014who is, I\u2019m sure, a well-meaning MP for the electorate of Manurewa and does a lot of good work in that electorate\u2014definitely reinforced that they\u2019ve been drinking the cordial. They\u2019ve been drinking the cordial on that side of the House in terms of why this bill is such an amazing bill. I\u2019ll be honest, I haven\u2019t touched that cordial, but I can tell you that when I\u2019m looking at this bill, it\u2019s very clear that this is just another one of these bills that is looking for a problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe articulation from the prior member in regards to what this bill is trying to do in trying to make sure that people are making donations that are fully disclosed\u2014well, there is a threshold. Any donation over $15,000 is publicly disclosed, right? So we\u2019re not talking about people being able to make political donations in this country that aren\u2019t disclosed; we\u2019ve simply got a Labour Party electoral amendment bill that is looking to move this threshold down from 15 grand to five grand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EWe can navel-gaze a lot around whether that is appropriate or not, and around disclosure and transparency and all of that, but, as the Minister articulated in the opening statements around this bill, the purpose of this bill\u2014the purpose\u2014is to improve trust and confidence in Government. Well, oh well, I tell you what, for anyone who\u2019s been watching Parliament TV in the last four hours, you might have seen a few other bills that have come through this House which pretty much appease and epitomise that contrast around why this Government cannot be trusted in regards to protecting our democracy. So I just simply do not buy it that the true intent of this bill is to try and increase trust in the population of hard-working Kiwis in our democracy\u2014what a load of rubbish. A load of rubbish\u2014absolute rubbish\u2014and it\u2019s pretty clear when you look at this that that is the case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe other thing is some of the amendments\u2014which is another element of the bill\u2014around the reporting requirements for donations exceeding $30,000, and they\u2019re wanting to reduce that to $20,000. Again, this isn\u2019t going to make any material impact in regards to disclosure. I think there was a degree of consensus in the Justice Committee around the time period in which disclosure of information should be made\u2014absolutely. There is agreement. Getting disclosure into the public arena at pace is something that I understand all parties at the select committee agreed on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EBut moving these thresholds is, in our view, not going to fix a problem which we face in this country, and, heck, don\u2019t we have a lot of problems in this country today, right? I don\u2019t know if anyone at home is thinking, \u201CYou know what? In terms of the top three issues that are on the West Coast, or the top three issues on the North Shore or in Invercargill\u201D\u2014[Interruption] Is the Electoral Amendment Bill, Penny Simmonds, among the top three issues in Invercargill? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223dbeeb9f5bad477b9ba7b7b38374c9e9\u0022\u003EPenny Simmonds\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not featuring. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d65984dc7c1c45508745520c0d9d71c0\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: No, it\u2019s not featuring at all, because it\u2019s not, is it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EArena Williams and I\u2014we\u2019re going to get consensus and agreement. Surely, we can agree that this isn\u2019t a top three issue or top five issue, and it\u2019s not going to improve trust and confidence in Government. The actions that a Government takes are the things that build trust. The reality is that Kiwis across this country will make an assessment around trust in this Government, as they do every three years in this democracy, and that will be wholeheartedly based on what this Government has delivered, not on whether they have implemented the Electoral Amendment Bill and changed the threshold for public donations from 15 grand to five grand. I\u2019m chuckling under my breath, but it is a reality that this is actually something that we\u2019re seriously pushing through off the back of the significant issues that our country faces. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo National opposes this bill. It\u2019s a waste of time. We don\u2019t think it\u2019s going to make any impact, and I don\u2019t think we can do much more categorically on that. I\u2019m looking forward to the next speaker on our behalf\u2014Simon O\u2019Connor\u2014who will no doubt bring a lot more comprehension to this because he\u2019s on the select committee. But at that, we do not commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022948de06b90f4446b89f7d1fb31381bb4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022948de06b90f4446b89f7d1fb31381bb4\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Duncan Webb\u2014five minutes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022addbafd269734a1cb25a102abf7ef530\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022addbafd269734a1cb25a102abf7ef530\u0022\u003EDr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s always good to take a call unexpectedly when the M\u0101ori Party choose not to speak on a matter, which I must say I find unusual given the importance of this. This is a simple bill, and the crux of it is that there are two kinds of donations: there are open donations that everyone knows about, and there are secret donations, and we want to shift the needle away from secret donations and towards open and transparent donations. Given the noise that comes from the other side of the House on transparency, I\u2019m surprised that they\u2019re so vociferously opposed to this bill\u2014draw your own conclusions. We support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0d240d40b2b41d79eba8c020c604ade\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0d240d40b2b41d79eba8c020c604ade\u0022\u003EWILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I too will just take a short call on this. I have been listening to the contributions in the House this evening, and it is really concerning me, actually, that there\u2019s such, I think\u2014as the previous speaker just said\u2014vociferous opposition to this. So what is it that they are worried about? I think, as the member that just sat down said, you can draw your own conclusions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI want to just highlight, you know, one of the reasons for doing this was the public support that there is for making these changes. One of the earlier contributions was that this is hardly the most important issue on people\u2019s radars right now\u2014and that is true, there are much bigger issues out there facing our country and we are dealing with those too. But there is public support for what is proposed in this bill and I just want to highlight that a survey undertaken by Victoria University of Wellington in 2021 found that almost 70 percent of respondents indicated they did not have a reasonable amount of trust in party funding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EThe Ministry of Justice undertook public and targeted consultations from 3 December 2021 to 21 January 2022, and the feedback from the consultation generally supported the changes to the Electoral Act to increase transparency. And the committee received 42 submissions, the majority of which were supportive of the bill\u2019s objective to support the delivery of, and participation in, elections to maintain public trust and confidence in our electoral system. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u00222cd301b117364423bd9f88edae688ac4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222cd301b117364423bd9f88edae688ac4\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E The left wing, once again, are trying to screw the electoral scrum. If you want to take only one lesson away from me tonight, it\u2019s that the left wing are so quaking in their boots that they are ramming, once again, through Parliament a piece of law to try and assure that they can win the election next year. And the thing is, the lefties on the other side\u2014looking all a bit confused, that\u2019s normal, too. They\u2019ve got form in this space because old Helen Clark\u2014sorry, that was not meant to be an age-related thing, it was just a phrase\u2014tried this with electoral finance eight years ago. In fact, it was the first protest I was ever involved with. The Labour Party and its Green mates have form when it comes to screwing the electoral scrum. So what\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228dd97344511549b2aaddc097e0b2f27d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! The member is skating close to impugning or suggesting improper motive. Equally, a couple of members across this side of the House have done the same thing. I won\u2019t take any more of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5460bd5b59e4fe5a8786d369e0db03b\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: So the left wing don\u2019t want New Zealanders to exercise one of their most fundamental rights, which is the right to privacy. The thing about the right to privacy is one should be able to donate to the political parties of their choice without harassment. I\u2019m going to put out the suggestion, which, hopefully, is not an imputation, but there\u2019s form again on the left wing to harass, cancel, deplatform, and discourage those they disagree with. By lowering these thresholds to an arbitrary number, I might suggest, an arbitrary number, they are more than happy to try and dissuade New Zealanders from donating to any parties of their choice other than, of course, the Labour or the Green Party. They\u2019re very, very happy with that. They have very good friends in the union movement, which, obviously, can provide financial but often non-financial incentives. I personally think, again, without impugning my left-wing colleagues, they would be very happy for us to be moving towards complete State funding\u2014complete State funding\u2014once again, removing an ability of democratic society to actually contribute to the extent they wish to the political parties of their choice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ENow, let me be really, really clear. I do not want to see a system that we see in the likes of the United States or other countries where you can donate enormous amounts of money with basically no oversight. I\u2019m actually relatively comfortable with current New Zealand law. Personally, I think dropping the thresholds from $15,000 to $5,000 is not going to achieve any greater transparency or trust. As I said earlier, I think it\u2019s arbitrary. I\u2019ve heard other speeches from the other side, \u201COh, well, it\u2019s not too bad.\u201D But why not make it $1? Why not flush out every single New Zealander who dares\u2014who dares\u2014to give money to a political party other than the Labour or the Green Party? Why not a dollar? In fact, could I make the suggestion, because we\u2019re now looking at $5,000\u2014I might be making a bit of a mockery of the $1 thing, but of course with current inflation, $5,000 ain\u2019t going to be worth that much in a few months\u2019 time. It just doesn\u2019t make sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThe other element, and actually two elements I might touch on is around this whole trust and transparency side of things. If you look at our current electoral laws, particularly around donations, it\u2019s actually working. It\u2019s actually working. The parties know the system, the individuals donating know the system. In fact, you would argue\u2014I would, certainly\u2014the courts are working. They are rightly hauling up, catching those people involved. That\u2019s a positive thing. In fact, if I wanted to make a suggestion to Government and future Governments, it\u2019s actually begin to look at foreign funds which get funnelled into this country in different ways, not the Kiwis trying to donate a little bit of money to the political party of their choice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EBut trust and transparency would start, one might suggest, if actually\u2014I actually don\u2019t know the answer to this question, but I know when this whole process started, and, by the way, as context even to the second reading, the Government went out to consult around electoral law changes. They went out to consult and then they slipped this bill in before the consultation. They\u2019re trying to tweak the bill before the consultation properly finished. I\u2019m not sure how that fits \u201Ctrust and transparency\u201D. The answer to my wider question too is I believe the Labour Party and maybe the Greens, maybe other parties, refused to release their submissions to the Ministry of Justice. Now, they may have done so now\u2014I suspect not because of the silence and the head bows\u2014but just because so many members have talked about trust and transparency, let\u2019s put it really clearly on the record: the Labour Party refused to release its submission to the Ministry of Justice on this bill, which they wax lyrical about being trust and transparent. And then, if we want to keep belabouring that point, which may be a terrible pun, to belabour the point, we just had a constitutional outrage in this House, a constitutional outrage which cuts to the heart of the trust and transparency of this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EBut of course, this is more about money and also voting age, as the Speaker has rightly pointed out. Fundamentally, the right to privacy means, in my view and I think the National Party view, that New Zealanders have that right to be able to donate a certain degree of money without fear of any harassment or anything else\u2014anything else. We can certainly debate where that line is and I think fundamentally, fundamentally, that\u2019s where I see this debate tonight. I have not heard anyone in this House, and certainly not myself, arguing for open slather. But to drop it so low, so low, is very much, as I suggested, a means to bring about an end which is not healthy to the democracy of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EFundamentally, too, I suspect we will see further changes in the future if a left-wing Government maintains its power in this country, God forbid. However, despite having been so heavy and negative, there is one bouquet to give to the Government, and that is the aspect of this law which addresses overseas voting. Citizens now can be away for six years\u2014please come home, we desperately need you; we have a crisis everywhere and we need you back in this country. People on permanent residence up to four years\u2014same message to you as permanent residents: we desperately need you in our hospitals, prisons, you name it; come back home. Wages are terrible, inflation terrible, but we\u2019re still nice people\u2014and National is going to win the 2023 election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EBut that is a positive that we\u2019re doing the overseas voting. That is a positive. It\u2019s something actually that this side of the House has called for for quite a lot of time. In fact, I think a number of parties across the House have called for it\u2014including, I think, the Green Party as well. So it\u2019s good to see that this is finally here. But for those at home, do not be caught out by those on the left and those in Government talking to you about this bill and how wonderful it is because of overseas voting. It\u2019s an attempt, somewhat, to pull the wool over one\u2019s eyes, because fundamentally this is an attempt to undermine the ability of New Zealanders to easily and freely donate to a certain degree, to a certain degree, the moneys they wish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EFinally, and fundamentally, I don\u2019t think this is going to really make, at one level, a lick of difference to trust and transparency, which again seems to be the supposed fundamental driver to this. I don\u2019t see how New Zealanders are going to feel things are more trusted and transparent around this. I think they\u2019re just going to find their ability to participate in the democratic systems that we have even harder. I do want to finish by stressing that\u2014even harder. Because things which have happened in this country over the last, arguably, five years, but certainly 2.5 years, have done enormous damage to our democracy. I\u2019m not going to go through them, as that would not be appropriate on the second reading. But our democracy has been damaged in many, many ways by this Government, and this bill is just one more dangerous little nail. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u00221f558469306048f3979539c0e74751c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f558469306048f3979539c0e74751c1\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a pleasure to take the last call on this matter. I wasn\u2019t on the Justice Committee, and I\u2019ve listened to these speeches, really, with very fresh eyes, and I\u2019m really disappointed in what I\u2019ve heard from the Opposition. What I\u2019ve heard is accusations of things like a lack of freedom of expression because you can\u2019t put your cash on the table at $15,000 without putting your name on it. I\u2019ve heard accusations of wokeness, and I\u2019ve heard accusations of left-wingness, which apparently is some sort of crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThis isn\u2019t a communist plot; this is something that cuts both ways. This is all about democracy and transparency. This is something that everybody should be supporting in this House today, because $5,000 is a lot of money. And, quite frankly, if I was a person sitting out listening to this, I\u2019d be thinking, \u201CDo I want to know that my politician is being supported by, perhaps, Shell Oil, or they\u2019re supported by the National Rifle Association, or they are supported by, perhaps, even the unions? I want to know those things because they\u2019re the context.\u201D And, yes, there is an attempt here to prevent some of the soft lobbying that can happen. It\u2019s a very insidious thing when somebody gives you $5,000. It\u2019s actually quite a thing, and we want to know. Actually, our voters want to know that kind of thing. And, yes, it\u2019s a pain in the neck writing out all that information for people when we are bringing down the amount, but it\u2019s very, very important because our democracy is actually quite delicate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThat is something that struck me over many years\u2014that we often think that we are safer than we are in our democracy. It\u2019s this sort of thing, this sort of adjustment, that makes the difference. It is something we can get complacent about. I, for one, don\u2019t want to be complacent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI like this piece of law because it\u2019s sensible. I don\u2019t believe that privacy is something that we should be so concerned about when people are actually donating $5,000 or $10,000 or $15,000 or $20,000 or $30,000\u2014I\u2019d want to know that if I was a voter. I\u2019m glad we\u2019re going to know that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI\u2019m glad we\u2019re including the people from overseas who\u2019ve been outside of the country but have a very real stake in it. I\u2019m glad we\u2019re doing that before the election. I\u2019m glad we\u2019re doing this. And I hope that this kind of thing, which has got nothing to do with being left-wing or right-wing\u2014it\u2019s got to do with being democratic and aware that we\u2019re in a world where people trust each other less and less when it comes to this sort of thing. It\u2019s got to do with being democratic. This is an important, fundamental step, and I\u2019m proud to support this bill. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022535048e3b7e54d6f9738ec8dbdc03771\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Electoral Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 74\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 40\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 30; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000636\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022360f7ddf5b794dd0921c8442a86a33f2\u0022\u003ESmokefree Environments and Regulated Products (Smoked Tobacco) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220fc34f877806473883da6ad1b1512e29\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7dac23ef6af4f48bab19cf8e6815430\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7dac23ef6af4f48bab19cf8e6815430\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Associate Minister of Health): \u003C/span\u003EI present a legislative statement on the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products (Smoked Tobacco) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0aa925b2d2843d5b8df5b4d1c6b437b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1a89aaf039148c4b51fd5d70c8ca230\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products (Smoked Tobacco) Amendment Bill be now read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI want to address my thanks to the members of the Health Committee, chaired by my colleague Tangi Utikere, and to all those involved in this process, which included almost 2,000 written submissions from the public, including 84 submitters who made an oral submission to the committee. I want to acknowledge that the committee did not significantly change the bill. In the final report, the committee recommended that the bill proceed with a limited number of amendments, including setting the number of retail outlets allowed to sell tobacco and including the nicotine concentration in the primary legislation. In addition to those amendments, I am also proposing minor amendments based on advice from the Ministry of Health for further clarity, transparency, and consistency of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EIt is not every day that members get to vote on legislation that is as lifesaving, as life extending, and as life changing as this bill. This legislation will help us save thousands of lives a year. There are 4,500 people who die of tobacco in New Zealand each year. It is our leading preventable cause of death. That is not even overselling what a difference it will make for people. We have the chance once and for all to take control of a product so deadly that it kills half the people that use it. Even COVID or the 1918 influenza pandemic cannot compete with the death toll that tobacco exacts on our people. There are many families who have lost an aunt, an uncle, a grandma, a grandfather, a brother, a sister, or parents to smoking. Many wh\u0101nau are missing members who never got to live to old age and who died earlier than they should have. Tobacco has done no good whatsoever, and we have the chance to get rid of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EToday, all MPs in this House have the chance to stand on the right side of history, but time and time again parties in this House have slowed, voted against, halted, and blocked action to tackle tobacco, and this has been going on for decades. In this House in 1990, Opposition health spokesperson at the time Don McKinnon claimed that New Zealand\u2019s first piece of smoke-free legislation, the Smoke-free Environments Act of 1990, was an assault on freedoms, it was anti-employer, anti-worker, and it might destroy jobs. He said that a National Government would ensure that the bill did not survive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EThe bill did survive, and so did many New Zealanders whose lives were prolonged as a result. The National Party have been making the same tired old arguments for decades. They claimed back then that legislation to stop smoking would destroy New Zealand hospitality businesses. Well, what\u2019s changed in hospitality? It\u2019s going from strength to strength\u2014you just come home from a night out without your clothes smelling of smoke. That doesn\u2019t stop them from making these repetitive arguments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003ENow, we move to control the number of retail settings in which tobacco can be sold. Independent studies\u2014and I\u2019m not talking about those published by Imperial Tobacco in our media lately\u2014show that only a tiny percentage of sellers\u2019 profits, less than 5 percent, comes from tobacco. That\u2019s why around the country many retailers are leading the way by ditching tobacco and going smoke-free, like in Northland where 25 retailers have taken the step to stop selling tobacco. Most of them recommend other retailers follow their lead. The vast majority of tobacco-free retailers, 88 percent, experienced a neutral or positive financial impact from ditching tobacco.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI believe that it is our duty as legislators to pass laws and take actions that save the lives of New Zealanders, and I know it is my duty as a doctor and a member of this House to bring proposals here that will save lives. Dr Reti, now is not the time for arguing about the evidence or delaying these proposals\u2014lives are on the line. Vote for this bill or renounce your oath. This legislation will reduce the burden on our health system. It will reduce numerous types of cancer, heart attacks, strokes, and amputations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003ECigarettes are products that the tobacco industry has engineered to be so addictive that it overwhelms the will of people who know they are dying from them, and they can\u2019t give up the very product that is about to cut their life short. This is what addiction does to people; there is so much human misery caused by it. If I reflect on the people I have met who have been trapped by tobacco: unable to walk to their letterbox because their lungs were so damaged, people who have lost their limbs because of tobacco, mothers who have been unable to hold their babies in their arms because tobacco smoking meant that their child had to be taken to neonatal intensive care, people who have had cancers, who have had repeated surgeries. There is absolutely no good that comes from this product.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI hope members of this House fulfil their duty to the people of New Zealand to serve in their best interest and vote for the good of our health system and the good health of our people. In 1990, the Smoke-free Environments Act was world leading. Today, the smoked tobacco amendment bill is again world leading. Everyone in this House has the opportunity to free the next generation and everyone that comes after from the burden of disease and premature death that comes from smoked tobacco. I am proud to be a part of that, and so is this Government. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00227163f6e743f348b49eaf7901845e3d66\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227163f6e743f348b49eaf7901845e3d66\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u00221e965fad654e456eb4aa4b91c770737f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e965fad654e456eb4aa4b91c770737f\u0022\u003EDr SHANE RETI (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I certainly enjoyed the virtue signalling from that member, the Hon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u2014\u201CNow, let\u2019s get pragmatic. Now, let\u2019s talk about what can be deployed.\u201D How interesting it is that what she\u2019ll actually find out is that, of the three operative actions in the bill, we\u2019re actually supporting them all\u2014just changing the timing. So it\u2019s kind of ironic to say that we\u2019re not in favour of what\u2019s being put on the table here. It\u2019s just the timing and what\u2019s actually going to work\u2014amongst other things. Let\u2019s remember, National supports nicotine reduction. We support these smoke-free goals\u2014we created them, for goodness\u2019 sake!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EBefore we get to the crux of this bill, here\u2019s some context because this is a second reading and we should reflect back on what happened in select committee. The Health Committee received 1,965 written submissions\u20141,194 of them, the majority, were from small business and community retailers. There were 84 oral submissions. The select committee went to Wellington and to Auckland to hear them. I want to thank everyone who submitted. But here for the first time in the Health Committee\u2019s hands, we see the heavy hand of the health reforms centralising everything to Wellington. Because, I ask you, where are the local public health unit submissions? Go back and look over previous vaping and smoking legislation and look at the submissions f         rom the public health units, those local units that represent the view and the experience of the small communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EIn fact, it\u2019s kind of ironic to hear the member before me talk about the Northland example, considering they weren\u2019t allowed to submit. Why weren\u2019t they allowed to submit? Because, now, under these health reforms, all advocacy for legislation of this type has to go through Health New Zealand. Oh, and while we\u2019re talking about it, look back at the second-hand smoking in cars. Where did that come from? Well, that actually came from Northland school children through the Northland Cancer Society and through the Northland public health unit. There\u2019s no voice for them here in this bill, because under these health reforms, advocacy on bills like this now all has to go through Health New Zealand. So what did they end up doing? What did the public health unit advocate and\u2014at what was previously the Northland District Health Board\u2014end up doing? Putting the bill in her personal name\u2014how disgraceful is that? Representing the community and to avoid the sanitisation, if you like, from Health New Zealand to this bill, she had to put it forward in her personal name. Here is the heavy hand of the health reforms and centralisation showing itself to the Health Committee. Those voices are now lost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003ENational will not be supporting this bill as we have concerns that, of the three initiatives, many are untried and some of them are indeed, in our view, just virtue signalling. We are also very concerned that small community retailers are the sacrifice for this virtue signalling. Let\u2019s break it down then and look at the three smoke-free initiatives. The smoke-free generation: effectively, untried and not widely deployed. Denicotinisation: now, this we do support; it is modelled, and it is modelled on implementing the greatest impact. Studies have shown up to 70 percent product acceptance and, at 20 weeks, 50 percent reduction in cigarettes per day. I think this is something\u2014certainly as the modelling shows\u2014that could do the heavy lifting towards the objectives that we\u2019re talking about. I\u2019ll come back to this, and I am aware that there have been differences in opinion around the effects or the benefits, particularly, of denicotinisation, and I have weighed them up in this submission and in the proposals that we will make. Retail reduction: this is where the rubber really hits the tarmac, because this is who pays the price for this virtue signalling. Retailers, small businesses, and community dairies pay the price for Labour\u2019s virtue signalling. The price they pay is a reduction from 6,000 to 600 retailers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EWhere did that number come from, this magic 600? Well, it\u2019s clearly 10 percent. What is the science behind the 10 percent if anyone can tell me? No one could bring it to select committee. How was that 10 percent selected? They just put a finger in the air and took a guess. And who pays for that guess? It\u2019s the small community retailers. There was no science\u2014there is no science\u2014around that reduction number. And at a time when small retailers are hurting\u2014desperately hurting\u2014and marching in the streets because they\u2019re being ram-raided and because they have burglaries, this Government puts the knife in, this Government says, \u201CWe will now reduce your ability to earn a livelihood; we will cut your ability to retail cigarettes and smoking products from 6,000 retailers down to 600.\u201D They\u2019re already on their knees, and now this Government pushes them down on to their face with very little thought for their own ethereal virtue-signalling that this is a good thing to do. In fact, if we want to look at what the Minister actually said about this, she said when she spoke to the Health Committee on 28 September that compared to denicotinisation, retail reduction \u201Chas much uncertainty about it.\u201D\u2014much uncertainty. And yet this Government will proceed with retail reduction first off in 2024 on numbers that cannot be scientifically evidenced. In fact, in that presentation to the Health Committee, the Minister alluded that retail reduction was simply easier to do, and that\u2019s why it was being implemented first. Well, good luck telling retailers who will lose their livelihood that they\u2019re kicking off first because it was easier to do. That is not a rational scientific argument at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EDuring the select committee stage, we raised the question of snus and why that wasn\u2019t being considered, because we needed to explain to New Zealanders that we\u2019d thought of all the tools in the tool box. And if you look at the Scandinavian experience, it has been a significant contributor. We were told, no, it\u2019s currently illegal. Well, that\u2019s an observation, not persuasive reasoning. The unanswered question is: why was this apparently effective treatment not considered further? It\u2019s been determined it\u2019s illegal. We can likewise determine it is not illegal. We think this should have been considered further and is a missed opportunity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThe black market received much discussion through the select committee, with a range of views. I think everyone would agree that there will be, from all of these three initiatives, some impact on the black market, on the illegal market, for cigarettes. And that range varied significantly, but I think everyone does agree that there will be an impact on that. It\u2019s also been raised with me that we should be paying attention to the recently changing volumes of loose tobacco and what that might say about the impact of this bill and the impact of the illegal market. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EAs we said when the Minister challenged us to be a part of this, we\u2019re not actually going to oppose, at this point, the three operative initiatives in this bill\u2014which are retail reduction, which are denicotinisation, and the smoke-free generation\u2014but we do disagree with the timing of them. We disagree significantly with the timing of them, and that\u2019s why we\u2019re going to vote against this, because they\u2019re going to sacrifice retailers, first of all, when there is much uncertainty, much unknown. The first out of the breach are the retailers. They\u2019re the ones who are going to pay the price for this virtue signalling. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003ESo we have an alternative plan, one that we actually put to the Minister in a bipartisan approach. We said, \u201CMinister, would you entertain,\u201C\u2014go back and look at the transcript\u2014\u201Cthat maybe we denicotinise first.\u201D And she said, \u201COh, the member wants to go hard and fast.\u201D I\u2019m happy to be ambitious for this. I\u2019m happy to go hard and fast. And speaking with manufacturers, I do believe that we can denicotinise first and just maybe we reach the goal just with that. The modelling suggests 85 percent of the heavy lifting will be done with denicotinisation. So why are we throwing retailers under the bus first off? Maybe what we should actually be doing is doing that first, deploying it, and then watching and seeing if it has the effect that we\u2019re expecting it would and if it actually meets the modelling. Why don\u2019t we do that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EAnd then if you recall, to select committee, retailers said, \u201CIf this was going to happen, we would need two years to actually do a transition period where we could maybe move to new business models.\u201D\u2014some of the things that the member has talked about. Well, why don\u2019t we give them that opportunity? Why don\u2019t we denicotinise and, over that two-year period, give retailers the chance to change their business model? And at the same time, let\u2019s see if denicotinisation has done everything that was promised. This is the suggestion, and this is why we\u2019re opposing this at this reading, because we put this to the Minister and she wasn\u2019t interested. We were prepared to collaborate with a bipartisan approach. In fact, we were prepared to say that if denicotinisation fails after an observation period, then maybe we would have to look at retail reduction and then maybe the smoke-free generation, even though the modelling shows they do a very small part. Again, all the heavy lifting is done with denicotinisation. We proposed this, and the Minister wasn\u2019t interested, so we brought collaboration to the table.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThe other thing that I want to talk about is vaping. Vaping is tightened up in this bill, and this is a good thing, recognising that vaping is having the hoped-for impact on adult smokers, particularly with recently encouraging figures. I think that\u2019s a good thing. We do, however, recognise the concern that parents, schools, and communities are expressing around underage vaping and the helplessness that they feel. Vaping in young people has tripled, and while some have said, \u201CDon\u2019t worry; there\u2019s minimal harm, but look at the benefit it is doing for their parents.\u201D I think the National Party shares the concerns of parents and communities, and we\u2019ll propose Supplementary Order Papers that require the proximity of other specialist vape retailers to be taken into account when new licences are issued, and increased monitoring and compliance of underage use and access. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003ENational supports nicotine reduction. We have an alternative plan that will not savage, cannibalise, and run retailers into the ground. We put it to the Minister. We were prepared to collaborate. She wasn\u2019t interested. We have a plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022412a64a903f544c2ba3524660c7135f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022412a64a903f544c2ba3524660c7135f5\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise as the chair of the Parliament\u2019s Health Committee to speak in support of the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products (Smoked Tobacco) Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ECan I acknowledge the leadership of Minister Dr Ayesha Verrall in this particular space, who is prepared to save lives rather than put an additional life at risk. So I want to place on the record the acknowledgment of the Minister\u2019s leadership in this space. Can I also thank colleagues on the Health Committee, committee staff, the officials from the Ministry of Health who provided a huge level of support for us, the team at Parliamentary Counsel Office, and also the submitters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ENearly 2,000 submitters throughout New Zealand took the opportunity to share their views, their perspectives with the select committee. We did hear some evidence in oral form from 84 submitters and we also had two subcommittees that were set up to hear those, and I want to acknowledge the deputy chair of the committee, Dr Tracey McLellan, who also assisted in chairing one of those subcommittees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWhen we started this process, we heard from a number of individuals such as Hone Harawira, and also Tau Henare, who encouraged the select committee to go out into the communities and hear directly from the people for whom this will make a huge difference. So we did. We went to South Auckland and we sat down for the better part of a day and we heard from the community there. Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick, who\u2019s been part of this process, gave her apologies for that\u2014couldn\u2019t be in two places at once\u2014but when other Labour members of that subcommittee turned up, not a single National member of Parliament fronted to that community in South Auckland to hear the submissions that those people wanted to make. Not a single member of the National Party turned up to listen to communities. They did not even bother to turn up. I think that is absolutely appalling\u2014absolutely appalling. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESo I just think that the suggestion that the National Party will support three of the mechanisms or vehicles is nothing but a low shot and an easy opt-out. When members of this House are not prepared to listen to community members and organisations\u2014people like Catherine Manning, who I see is in the gallery, who has taken time to submit to this process\u2014it is absolutely an indictment on how the National Party view this particular bill and piece of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI want to just touch on some of the changes that were made as a result of this bill going through the Health Committee. One was a limit to the number of retail premises, and that\u2019s contained in new section 20M in clause 13. Now, initially the advice was a suggestion that the number could actually be set by way of secondary legislation in regulations. We heard overwhelmingly from those oral submissions that they would far prefer to have an element of certainty and that the number or limit should be specified in legislation. That\u2019s one change that the select committee is recommending. That responds to the views that were expressed by submitters and also provides that certainty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe committee also made some changes in terms of specifying the level that would assist with denicotisation, and that level, based on advice, is 0.8 micrograms per gram in an individual smoked tobacco product. You\u2019ll find that at new section 57H in clause 31.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe issue of enforcement and responsibility for non-compliance is something, and where we landed, in terms of the committee\u2019s report, was at a place which was consistent with other pieces of legislation, including within this space, and also the requirement for the burden of proof of reasonable excuse resting with the defendant and no one else. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EOne other addition that the select committee turned its mind to was one of reviewing the provisions within this piece of legislation. And so the select committee has recommended inserting new Subpart 7, in clause 52, which would, effectively, require the Ministry of Health to undertake a review of aspects of this piece of legislation to ensure that it\u2019s working as is intended, and there would be a requirement for it to be reported back to the Parliament via the relevant Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll conclude by saying that this is a piece of legislation that will save lives, and I am just dumbfounded that members opposite are not willing to step up and do something in that space. We heard from a submitter from Te R\u014Dpu Tupeka Kore\u2014and I\u2019ll conclude with this. The submitter said that p\u0101ua shells are a whakapapa species; they\u2019re not ashtrays, and isn\u2019t it sad that we currently have a community for whom the whakapapa species is known as ashtrays? It\u2019s time that we did something about this, because it is hurting our M\u0101ori and our Pasifika communities. This bill will address that. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022839727408c764915ae12600f6e06ec3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022839727408c764915ae12600f6e06ec3f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the next speaker, can I just reflect to all the members in this House that the reference to members not being in this particular House also refers to when members do not attend select committee. I call on Harete Hipango.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022 data-id=\u002231d72702eb6d4950b8362ab6a6aafd64\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231d72702eb6d4950b8362ab6a6aafd64\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. The debate in the House has been rather enlightening this evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t intend it to be any pun, but with the lighting up of this discussion, it\u2019s certainly triggered a lot of memories. My parents were smokers; my mother died of lung cancer. During the course of mum\u2019s lifetime, she attempted to give up smoking, and she did. And she made the conscientious decision to do so without any medical intervention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003ENow, I am saying that that was her experience. My father, who was M\u0101ori, was a smoker also for most of his lifetime. Intermittent periods of giving up smoking without medicinal, medical support. It was mind over matter for them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EWhat was the driving factor for them to finally terminate a lifelong commitment to smoking was for them to be around a lot longer for their mokopuna. So what I\u2019m saying is the motivating driving factor for everybody is different.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003ETo stand in this House and speak after sitting and listening to members across the House criticise my colleague Dr Shane Reti\u2014who has been a medical practitioner of a number of decades, dedicated to saving lives\u2014and suggesting for a moment that he doesn\u2019t prioritise the importance of saving lives and also to suggest that the National Party is of that same standing and mind, is, quite frankly, galling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EAlso to hear the suggestion that the National Party members did not front to a public meeting. To put it in context, two of my colleagues\u2014only two of 11\u2014sit on the Health Committee. So the expectation that two members can be everywhere when necessary is not an indication.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276bce312d16340b696f04d5fb56d5878\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: If I could just remind the member: before I called her, I did actually say there was a Speaker\u2019s ruling about referring to members of select committee and their absences. Can we please move on. Make a different point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7fff14996494290b7e3245de2aac3d5\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, noted. In saying that, the committee process\u2014I was not a member of the Health Committee\u2014this bill, which is the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products (Smoked Tobacco) Amendment Bill, was referred to the committee on 26 July, 2022. There were some 1,927\u2014although my colleague Dr Reti indicated 1,965, and if that\u2019s the case, the record needs to be amended in terms of what\u2019s been submitted back to the House\u2014made submissions, and there was oral evidence heard from 84 submitters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003ENow, the National Party has filed a minority view, which Dr Reti has spoken to at some detail. Not having been privy to the detail of that select committee, but I am privy and do know that the champion for Smokefree Aotearoa 2025 is a relation of mine, Dame Tariana Turia. And driving this campaign with her at the time\u2014back in, I believe the bill passed its first reading back in December 2010\u2014were champions and continue to be champions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EBut I am also aware that there comes a time, too, when: how much does the Government take responsibility for driving these health matters? How much more investment does the Government put into people\u2019s lives in driving and determining what is best for them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EI started this speech by referring to my parents both as smokers. They made a determination, they made a choice\u2014without Government intervention\u2014to decide what was the most compelling factor for them during their lifetime, and it was their grandchildren.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EI won\u2019t talk further to this bill. My colleague has outlined in the minority view the differing view, and there will be colleagues who did sit on that select committee talk further to it. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022119c0bb8081f4e35948441606a9782be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022119c0bb8081f4e35948441606a9782be\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker, and thank you for the opportunity to also make a contribution on the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products (Smoked Tobacco) Amendment Bill tonight at this second reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ELike colleagues previously, I would like to very sincerely and warmly commend the Associate Minister of Health, the Hon Dr Ayesha Verrall, for being the person who has been bold enough and had the foresight to tackle what is, essentially, a wicked problem. I\u2019d also like to acknowledge the members of the Health Committee, a committee that I\u2019m very proud and pleased to be on, and I thank all of the submitters who took the time to make submissions. Most of the submissions were really informative. There was a wide range of submissions. There were submissions from all over the world. There were submissions from academics who had dedicated their life to looking at smoking cessation and addiction, who were up in the middle of the night to do their five or 10 minutes on Zoom so that they could be part of what they described as a truly innovative and bold piece of legislation, going through our Parliament in a world-first context.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EWhen I think about smoking and the relationship that I\u2019ve had with smoking for almost as long as I can remember, one of my earliest memories is coming home, opening the back door to the cloud of smoke that would fill the family home, stealing cigarettes to the shed and at primary school, and practising smoking because we thought that was just something that everybody aspired to. If you were going to do it, you may as well do it properly and learn how to do that drawback as quickly as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ETo one of my early working experiences, working at Telecom in the 1980s\u2014it wasn\u2019t the 1950s or the 1960s; it was the 1980s\u2014there was a black ashtray on all of the desks. It was around about that time that at least you had to go to a separate room to have your cigarette break. To flying to Australia when I was 18, my first time going overseas, and the smoking section was roughly in the middle of the plane so that it distributed toxins evenly to everybody throughout that travel. I suppose that the point I\u2019m trying to make is that the world being any different, smoking being any different, to what it was in front of me seemed like an impossibility. It seemed like it would be something that would always be part of our everyday life.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EI remember working in a bar when the law was changed so that people couldn\u2019t smoke at bars and we literally had strategic plans in place for how we were going to deal with the downturn, which never happened\u2014absolutely never happened. There\u2019s always going to be those arguments put in front of us to say why we shouldn\u2019t do something that\u2019s bold and innovative, but when we weigh up those arguments against the sheer numbers of lives that are saved and the sheer number of people whose quality of life would be improved, then there simply is no contest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EWhen we\u2019re dealing with complex behaviours, which we always are when we\u2019re looking at something in relation to addiction, there must be a multi-prong response, and that\u2019s why there\u2019s three pieces to this legislation\u2014three legs, so to speak. Cues and reasons why people do things aren\u2019t the same for everybody.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ESo the fact that there will be a smoke-free generation, which, again, is revolutionary, the fact that we will be reducing the number of outlets and the supply, all of which provides visual clues for people\u2014and it\u2019s no coincidence that a lot of those outlets are clustered in lower socio-economic areas as well\u2014and the ability to reduce the nicotine in cigarettes all adds up to a cocktail, so to speak, of remedies for tackling what is an atrocious situation in this country, in terms of smoking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019d like to, again, say that this bill represents an opportunity for us, in this House, to do something that\u2019s actually profound. It\u2019s not always often that we get to do something that\u2019s profound. It\u2019s world-leading; it\u2019s something we should be proud of. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u0022fafb1b51a8234c5bb326db71fe452d90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fafb1b51a8234c5bb326db71fe452d90\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. It\u2019s a pleasure to stand on behalf of the Green Party on the second reading of this legislation tonight, and I just want to acknowledge, as others have, the Minister for bringing this legislation before the House. I also want to acknowledge the Health Committee, for indulging me; and also the officials, who were incredible; an impeccable display of\u2014again, indulging many questions from members\u2019 scattergun approach of just canvassing every single thing that came out of submitters and submissions, effectively to ensure that we were getting the most robust and most tested version of legislation possible. And there have been a number of changes that have been made to this legislation throughout that select committee process, and I\u2019ll get to those in a minute, because that select committee process was\u2014as others have alluded to\u2014quite profound. It was incredibly profound to hear from community members who have been directly impacted by losing loved ones as a result of this product of tobacco, but also to hear from many public health experts and advocates, and those who work in cessation treatment\u2014and I want to acknowledge the many who are in the gallery tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EBut I also really want to acknowledge one of the many tamariki who came in front of our committee\u2014the committee that I was subbed in to\u2014to express her aspirations for the future of Aotearoa. And I promised her that I would read this in the second reading, so here it is, from a few months ago. This is Tiger who came with her mum to submit to us at select committee. And she said, and I read from her declaration to our Health Committee, \u201CT\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. My name is Tiger. I really want tobacco to get out of Aotearoa because it is bad for our wh\u0101nau. It is bad for their lungs and their heart. My nanny died from smoking tobacco. I miss her so much. That\u2019s why I want them out of the shops and out of Aotearoa. No reira, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa.\u201D That\u2019s kind of the point; that\u2019s why we\u2019re doing this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EAnd I also want to acknowledge some of the good-faith interactions that I think have been demonstrated by some members of the Opposition. However, I would like to see them extend that same logic that they throw out around evidence-based approaches and concerns about the black market to other substances that they\u2019re very happy to hand control over to the unregulated black market. Because when we\u2019re talking about substances, whether they be cannabis or alcohol or tobacco, you\u2019re, effectively, provided with a spectrum of different regulatory opportunities which we in this House have the opportunity to legislate for. On one end, you have a complete commercial free market, and, on the other end, you have complete criminal prohibition. And at both ends of that extreme, without interventions for harm reduction and recognising the fact that we aren\u2019t going to completely eradicate some of these substances from planet Earth\u2014because by God, we\u2019ve been trying for the past few decades and ratcheting up penalties as a result of that trying, throwing more and more people in prison and not getting any better outcomes. At both ends of that spectrum, what you see is the maximisation of harm. That can really be whittled down to an equivalence of\u2014whether it is in the complete, free legal market or under complete criminal prohibition, you have entities, whether they are commercial entities or criminal entities, who are operating from an incentive to exploit vulnerable communities in order to make a quick buck. How do we draw back from those extremes? Through regulation, through sensible regulation of supply and dealing also with the reality of that demand and no meaningful regulation to reduce that harm is going to be able to not grapple with either side of that equation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo to speak to some of the things which we did end up chewing through in that select committee process\u2014and I\u2019d here refer members to my first reading speech, where I also spoke about a sense of unease with some of the untested provisions in this legislation. We really did kick them around and pull them apart, and it\u2019s why I feel particularly stoked about the introduction of the review clause\u2014which the chair, doctor Tangi Utikere, has mentioned\u2014because that review clause was really important to us in the Greens to make sure that we ended up with ultimately looking at whether these novel measures were having the efficacy that they were promised to with regard to reducing smoking rates and getting us towards that goal of Smokefree 2025. So too, it was really important for us to look at penalties, because we did not want to see those structurally marginalised communities\u2014who happen to be the exact same communities who are suffering the brunt of harm as a result of tobacco\u2014to be those who end up criminally prosecuted or penalised or in trouble or experiencing even further harm as a result of our criminal justice system with the introduction of new penalties. So I think it\u2019s really important for people to know that there are no new criminal penalties in this legislation; there are civil fines. And that, again, is a really important mechanism when it comes to drug harm reduction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EHowever, still outstanding as others have canvassed in their speech\u2014and I think it\u2019s actually acknowledged in the select committee report and I think many members of the Health Committee, even on the Government side, will be completely upfront about the fact that there\u2019s still so much more work to do on vaping. You know, it wasn\u2019t until last term when we finally introduced, Madam Chair, with some of your leadership\u2014some controls around vaping. I don\u2019t think most New Zealanders recognise or understand or know that, until that point of that legislation last term it was entirely self-regulated. That\u2019s why we had the proliferation of advertising in YouTube advertising and storefronts and billboards and everything else. It is a really hard process to bring things back under control after that genie is out of the bottle. But again, there is still more work to do. There\u2019s some important provisions in this legislation for testing vaping products, and that may go some way, particularly for making sure that consumers know what they are getting. But again, there\u2019s still more work to do there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s also more work to do in the space of education and cessation support, and this is a point made particularly by M\u0101ori and Pasifika advocacy organisations. My understanding, and what was put to us in the select committee, is that while we\u2019ve seen across demographics a reduction in smoking rates for pretty much all groups, we haven\u2019t seen that same reduction in smoking rates amongst Pasifika. There is a real need to ensure that we are supporting those at the coalface, at the grassroots who are doing that work to support people and understand their experiences and how to get them out of that trap of addiction\u2014again, that\u2019s a basic tenet of drug harm reduction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EFinally, this is just a funny one that I think I picked up on as a Green, which is cigarette filters. I did not know that cigarette filters are pretend drug harm reduction. Cigarette filters do not make cigarettes safer; all they do is make cigarettes more palatable for the people who are consuming them. They are a faux drug harm reduction device, which tends to make consumers think that smoking is safer when in fact it is not, but makes the product nicer and easier to consume and therefore something that is all the more addictive\u2014and then they end up in the ocean, eaten by the fishies. So, obviously, as a Green, interested in evidence-based policy and also wanting to save the fishies\u2014acknowledging my colleague the Hon Eugenie Sage\u2014we need to be acting on this. It\u2019s daft single-use plastic which is being taken by consumers to be making their product safer when it\u2019s not; it\u2019s just making cigarettes nicer to smoke. And, frankly, that\u2019s daft. We shouldn\u2019t be enabling that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo, finally, I just think it\u2019s also really important for us to reflect on the pace of progress and how both structural and cultural norms\u2014structural being kind of the laws that all of us in this place debate, the framework or the blueprint of how we\u2019re supposed to run our society, but culture really being the thing that validates those laws but also kind of brings them to life. It was only in 2015, seven years ago\u2014it was only in 2015\u2014when smoking was no longer allowed on the forecourt and the lawn of this Parliament; it was only 2015. And as other members have spoken to, I remember, growing up, going to restaurants and to cafes with my family and particularly in restaurants, experiencing being in those smoke-filled rooms. And obviously as the research continued to develop; obscured really intentionally by the industry\u2014and once again, that points to the real challenges and the problems when it comes to drug harm reduction: being that profit and that commercialisation. But that change has happened inside of my lifetime, and it\u2019s happened inside of all of our lifetimes. And, obviously, as all of us have spoken to, the reason that we\u2019re doing this is for future generations, and is for our tamariki, who will grow to be our rangatahi who will grow to be our rangatira, who will grow to be the leaders of this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo I just want to acknowledge Tiger once again in my closing remarks, her mum, who obviously inspired her to be in that place and to give that submission to the Health Committee. And I want to commend the House and commend the select committee for really, really pulling this bill apart and seeing the best that we could possibly do with it, because while there are novel and untested measures in this, the fact that there is a review and there will be the opportunity for reflection is important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s so much more to do, but the Greens, on balance, have come to the conclusion that this is a really important first step for continual tobacco harm reduction in this country, so I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u0022e43d40e242824be5a8edbcda0a51d673\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e43d40e242824be5a8edbcda0a51d673\u0022\u003EBROOKE VAN VELDEN (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to be here on behalf of the ACT Party tonight in opposition to this piece of legislation. The ACT Party is standing opposed to the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products (Smoked Tobacco) Amendment Bill. I firstly want to acknowledge the hard work that was put in by my colleague Toni Severin who was sitting in on the Health Committee while this bill was being taken through select committee. I know it took an awful lot of work from the committee staff, and I also want to acknowledge Toni\u2019s role in the ACT Party on this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EBut I want to start by getting out of the way many things that I believe that Government MPs and other people across the public may wish to say about the ACT Party not supporting this piece of legislation. So I want to make some statements to make it perfectly clear that personally I don\u2019t smoke. That is not our reason for not supporting this. In fact, I\u2019ve never had a cigarette. And secondly, I don\u2019t condone smoking. I don\u2019t take a huge step in either direction; it\u2019s not our reason for opposing this bill. But what is really important is that we\u2019re bringing laws to this Parliament that are actually good public policy and they\u2019re based on principles and they\u2019re based on putting in place legislation that will actually see better outcomes. When I look at this piece of legislation I don\u2019t see better outcomes. There are many actions that people take in life that I wouldn\u2019t personally do myself. I take another example, here: I think about a year ago I stood in this Parliament saying that I would support the drug pill testing legislation. You know, personally I\u2019ve never had one of those either. But that doesn\u2019t mean that we should be putting in place legislation to ban those types of drugs. And I take Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u2019s point before\u2014and I\u2019ll come back to it later in this speech\u2014that it\u2019s good public policy that should define the laws that we make in this House. So when we look at this law, the ACT Party cannot support it because it\u2019s bad public policy, plain and simple. Whether it\u2019s tobacco law or drug law, we need to be based on principle and we need to make sure they will make New Zealand better off, and this does not do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s go into it a little bit further in detail. So the Government has a goal of reducing smoking in New Zealand. Well, what else do we already have to reduce smoking in New Zealand? Well, we already know that we have public information campaigns to promote the risks associated with smoking; we know that we already collect taxes from smokers to help pay for the added burden that smoking can have on the health system; we also know that we have cessation treatment supports and smoke-free environments. But after all of these measures\u2014after all of these measures\u2014some people still smoke or they choose to smoke. And the Government, here, is deciding that even though there are some people that can know the risks and willingly take them, and some people who are willing to pay the extra costs to pay for their own burden to the healthcare system, they have to be stopped at any cost by the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003ESo what is the Government doing on top of all of the other measures to stop smoking in New Zealand? Number one, they say that they\u2019re going to \u201Creduce retail availability by significantly limiting the number of retailers able to sell smoked tobacco products\u201D; two, \u201Creduce the appeal and addictiveness of smoked tobacco products by enabling limits or prohibitions to be set on the quantity of nicotine and other constituents\u201D; and three, \u201Cprevent young people, and future generations, from ever taking up smoking by prohibiting the sale of smoked tobacco products to anyone born on or after 1 January 2009.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll go through these bit by bit because I believe all three of these will make New Zealand worse off. Number one: reducing the retail availability. It\u2019s a bad policy because it\u2019s anti-competitive. Essentially, what we\u2019re putting in place is allowing one person in New Zealand, the Director-General of Health, the ability to pick and choose retail businesses and decide which ones will survive and which ones will completely fail. And, you know, I\u2019ve spoken to so many small retail businesses up and down New Zealand, people who have come out to ACT Party meetings, people that we\u2019ve met in the community who are really, really struggling. They\u2019ve been struggling with ram raids, they\u2019ve been struggling with robberies, they\u2019ve been struggling feeling safe even going into their facilities. And on top of all of the hard work that they do to be a cornerstone to our local communities, the Government is now, on top of that, saying that if you are not the retailer that the Director-General of Health will pick as the winner in your neighbourhood, you could potentially go under. Forget all of the hard work that you do, all of the work that you try to do to support the community, the Government will intentionally be anti-competitive and stop you being able to trade. You know, people don\u2019t just go in to a dairy to get cigarettes. They go in to buy their bread, their milk, their butter, all of their small convenience goods alongside it. So a lot of retailers will take a huge hit. The committee is proposing that of the 6,000 retailers, only around 10 percent of them will be allowed to stock and supply tobacco products. So that\u2019s around 600 retailers that would be allowed to continue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EI would question whether it\u2019s acceptable that a Government would create policy that is so blatantly able to hurt and be anti-competitive to small businesses. I don\u2019t believe that is acceptable, and we really feel for the small retailers who will be harmed, on top of the robberies and the ram raids and the cost of living that people are going through, but now with the Government being anti-competitive. But on top of all of that, this in some ways will make a bigger target for the dairy owners who will still supply tobacco. Because, you see, now we have robberies, we have ram raids, we have people in our community harming dairy owners, but there\u2019ll be fewer of them and they\u2019ll be easily picked off by criminals and those cigarettes will end up on the black market as a result of this law. And so I really feel for the target that will be on the back of those small retailers who will, in fact, be allowed to survive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003ENumber two: the limits on the quantity of nicotine. This bill will limit the amount of nicotine to 0.8 milligrams per gram to reduce the appeal and addictiveness of cigarettes. I believe this will have two consequences. Number one, people who are addicted will simply smoke more cigarettes to get the same hit that they would have originally. Number two, they will find they will find the quality of the cigarettes that they\u2019re wanting on the black market. I sincerely hope that Customs is ready for the huge amount of illicit tobacco that will come through the border on containers, in imports, because people know that they want these products and they will get them. But they won\u2019t get them in the retailers; they\u2019ll get them in the criminal economy. This legislation will only help the gangs and fuel criminal activity and illegal activity in our communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003ENumber three: prohibiting the sale to anyone born after January 2009. Now, if there\u2019s one thing that we know from the drug prohibition laws, it\u2019s that not allowing young people drugs doesn\u2019t mean they won\u2019t get them. Young people still will want the ability and the choice for these types of products. Just trying to ban them and saying anybody under a certain age can\u2019t have one legally does not mean that people won\u2019t get them illegally. So I believe that this will once again go to increasing the illegal trade of tobacco in our communities. It will see criminal activity increase; we\u2019ll see more ram raids, we\u2019ll see more robberies, we\u2019ll see more people taking nicotine illegally from shops. But importantly, we will see a huge increase in the amount illegally coming through the border into the black market, into the criminal economy, into the hands of young people. So we oppose the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022736a77c877c74ecb9f40319fb6eff276\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022736a77c877c74ecb9f40319fb6eff276\u0022\u003EDr ANAE NERU LEAVASA (Labour\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E M\u0101l\u014D \u2018aupito, Madam Speaker. I rise as the MP for Takanini in support of the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products (Smoked Tobacco) Amendment Bill at its second reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EI totally disagree with the last member\u2019s assertions that it won\u2019t make a difference. It will make a huge difference, and I would invite that member Brooke van Velden to come to South Auckland and hear the submissions that we heard from the people on the ground that are exposed big time to the amount of outlets and retailers that sell tobacco in our neighbourhoods. I was also cringing when Dr Shane Reti was saying that he opposes this bill, because he\u2019s my medical colleague. To have the Hon Dr Ayesha Verrall here as well, it was very upsetting, I guess, to hear a clinical colleague say that they would oppose this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EThis bill will make a huge difference for our people: 4,500 people are dying per year in New Zealand because of smoke-related harms or second-hand smoking. That is 12 deaths per day\u201412 deaths per day\u2014that this bill will make a huge difference in reducing that, and who gets affected? It is our M\u0101ori, Pasifika, and vulnerable populations\u2014our communities. So it is about helping our community members to stop smoking and helping to provide an environment where it is easier to do so. This is about their health, their wellbeing, and also their wh\u0101nau. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EI also want to acknowledge the submitters who have presented to us in the last few months. Again, reiterating that there were almost 2,000 interested groups and individuals, and we heard about 84 submitters at hearings in Auckland and Wellington, and also over videoconference. It was so important to hear our community members say their bit regarding this bill and how much it affects their wh\u0101nau as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EWhat this bill does\u2014and I want to reiterate why it is so important. Smoking is the leading cause of preventable deaths in Aotearoa. Yes, we can say that smoking rates are continuing to drop by 8 percent for the general population, but it is our M\u0101ori and Pasifika families that still have high smoking rates, and eliminating smoking would definitely make a huge difference for them in addressing the inequities in health as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EI was so glad, with one of the venues being in South Auckland, to have our submissions and submitters heard there in the beautiful Fale o Samoa in M\u0101ngere\u2014the land of the 6-Bs, as Minister Aupito William Sio would say. I would say that it\u2019s the land of Toa Samoa, as they recently came second place in the Rugby World League Cup. It was a huge honour to see all our Samoan flags running around in M\u0101ngere. But it was so great because we had our community members. We had our M\u0101ori and Pasifika organisations come through and submit to the three Labour members who were there, and no other members that were there\u2014but I won\u2019t say too much, Madam Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecc58ec502fa4b0da59f5d3bcc0a36b5\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205a0772119524f11a4c5872a781e9bb5\u0022\u003EDr ANAE NERU LEAVASA\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014I\u2019ve already heard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c41f8563bcb94c69bb43ff255f1e15a0\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Yes, I\u2019ve already\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022540ca3a70b0e4849a30a41a2fc500513\u0022\u003EDr ANAE NERU LEAVASA\u003C/span\u003E: But I want to acknowledge organisations such as Health Coalition Aotearoa, Tala Pasifika, H\u0101pai Te Houora, and also I want to especially acknowledge this member of the community who comes from M\u0101ngere, who sees the burden of disease there: Leitu Tufuga. She was so involved that she presented under different organisations, but also presented herself on what she saw in her community. She said that there is three to four times more exposure in South Auckland, in M\u0101ngere, because of the amount of retailers in that neighbourhood, compared to our leafy areas in Auckland as well. She spoke about the burden that she sees in her own wh\u0101nau. She spoke about the youth getting involved\u2014and, yes, we did speak about vaping as well. That was one of the issues that was brought up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EBut to hear our Pasifika members of the community say their bit was huge for us. We were getting real-life stories, and to hear other members here say that it won\u2019t make a difference, that is simply rubbish. This will make a huge difference, and I want to say that M\u0101ori are three times more likely to be daily smokers, but, not only that: lung cancer\u2014lung cancer being the leading cause for our M\u0101ori women and the second leading cause for our M\u0101ori men. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EI want to make a special mention of our Hashtags crew\u2014our youth. Our youth, who came and spoke about what it means for them to be in a smoke-free generation. They also spoke about having a nicotine-free generation as well. Just to see them, their leadership, and their boldness to speak in front of us and to have that leadership at such a young age\u2014I give it up to The Hashtags. Well done, and it\u2019s awesome. They\u2019re current leaders now, and they\u2019re going to be our future leaders of Aotearoa as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EThis bill\u2014I\u2019m so happy that it\u2019s going to be passed tonight in terms of the second reading. I hope that other members take note because all our submissions and all the modelling that has been done show that it will make a difference for our communities. I commend this bill to the House. Fa\u2019afetai. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8799a30f3544980acae0404fa4bca52\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8799a30f3544980acae0404fa4bca52\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The next call is a split call. I call Maureen Pugh\u2014five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002281fc95682cd34a629dcb06f8a0ecb8e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281fc95682cd34a629dcb06f8a0ecb8e4\u0022\u003EMAUREEN PUGH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I stand to make a short contribution to the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products (Smoked Tobacco) Amendment Bill tonight, in its second reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EI haven\u2019t been a member of the select committee that has looked at this legislation, but I think most of us have had some form of experience in our lifetime with smokers. I grew up in a house where both of my parents smoked, and I clearly remember the family trips in the car. For those who don\u2019t know, sometimes it rains a bit on the West Coast, and when you go on a drive you\u2019ve got the windows up, and so driving around in the car with two smokers\u2014it still makes my eyes water. I can also remember spending quite a lot of time with my grandparents when I was much younger, and they too were very heavy smokers. Sometimes it was almost difficult to see across the room because of the amount of tobacco smoke. So I think that cured me of ever wanting to be a cigarette smoker myself. I\u2019ve never had one. I did try it once as a teenager, but I can\u2019t understand how people push through that first inhale. I certainly couldn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EBut this legislation impacts on two pieces of legislation. One is the Customs and Excise Act 2018, and the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Act 1990. As other speakers have pointed out, there are three main pillars to the legislation: that is around limiting the number of retailers in any particular area\u2014so that is going from 6,000 retailers nationwide down to 600. As my friend and colleague Dr Shane Reti pointed out, there was no rationale put forward for where that number came from or what was the information or the science or the advice that informed that decision to reach 600.The next part of this bill looks to control the amount of nicotine within cigarettes and other components of cigarettes. I understand that that will be limiting it to 0.8 of a gram per cigarette. And the third pillar is around preventing young people from taking up smoking by prohibiting the sale of cigarettes to anyone born after 1 January 2009. So if you are 13 years old or younger now, you will be unable to purchase or use smoked tobacco products.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EBut I do go back to the contribution that was made by the Green member over there, and just the irony of it did amuse me, so enthusiastic about this piece of legislation because it reduced the drug harm from tobacco. And I thought the irony that this member, who is the same member driven in the legalise cannabis debate\u2014what a double standard that turned out to be. It\u2019s OK to be really enthusiastic about banning this drug over here, but then we turn over here and let\u2019s legalise cannabis on the other side of the debate. That\u2019s great\u2014what a great double standard! Fantastic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EI want to come back to the point about the number of dairy owners, because even as a person that worked in a gas station, you know that there\u2019s very little money made out of pumping gas and selling gas. But then we have\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3dea9bf63cf4b5d872f0cba904db331\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Go ahead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d7459346dab4e2e844cd843516171fd\u0022\u003EMAUREEN PUGH\u003C/span\u003E: So in those retail outlets, it\u2019s not the fuel that the retailer makes his money from, it\u2019s all the other incidentals: it\u2019s the candy bar and the ice cream and it\u2019s the packet of cigarettes. So those dairy owners and those gas stations that have all of those other products that they sell, that\u2019s how they actually make a living. And then the dairy owners, it\u2019s the same\u2014people go in there to buy a packet of cigarettes, but that\u2019s what brings them in. It\u2019s the incidentals that they buy as well is where they make their profit. So what we are doing is a sinking-lid policy on the number of retail outlets, but also a sinking lid on the revenue that they can earn. So, the National Party does not support\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258f0a051721d4ca4af8fbae51c36915f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Order, Order. The member\u2019s time is up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022aff2efeef8c04001ae30c434e7da00f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aff2efeef8c04001ae30c434e7da00f3\u0022\u003EBARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Fa\u2019afetai tele lava, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a privilege to be able to take a call on the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products (Smoked Tobacco) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EI\u2019m not on the Health Committee, but\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228721787d3c134c73ad64e637735b5c98\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Great committee!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc52b93b215740fc8814544dbec009f5\u0022\u003EBARBARA EDMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: A great committee, I understand. But I do want to bring you into this debate very shortly, Madam Speaker, because actually you set a lot of the standard that is within the current Act around making sure that cars and children in cars are smoke-free. So I acknowledge your contribution for that work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThe reason why I\u2019m standing to take a call is because I am a mother of eight children who are all under the ages of 18. I\u2019ve just come back from the New Zealand Tag Football Incorporated Junior Tag Nationals\u201445,000 people walked through the grounds of Bruce Pulman Park in Papakura this weekend. I also managed to see the Condor 7s, which was held\u2014the National Secondary School Rugby Sevens competition that was held at King\u2019s College in Auckland as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ERight throughout these two heavily attended events\u2014which was littered with children under the age of 18\u2014there were really strong messages around, \u201CThis is a smoke-free environment. Tobacco and vaping is not welcome within these grounds. If you want to participate in that, you have to leave the grounds.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EAnd to be fair, I didn\u2019t really see many people outside of the grounds smoking or vaping, because they were missing out on their children\u2019s activities and were not wanting to leave the fields or the grounds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ENow, I want to acknowledge, as part of this bill, The Hashtags. Some of The Hashtags are actually within Wainui\u014Dmata. They are a group of w\u0101hine toa who play for Ng\u0101 Hau e Wh\u0101, which is a rugby league team based in Wainui\u014Dmata. In September, I was due to accept their petition on strengthening the vaping regulations\u2014on the vaping amendments. I was due to receive their petition but I was unwell with the flu at the time, so I acknowledge Ginny Andersen, who did accept that petition. What they were asking Parliament for was to strengthen the vaping regulations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo it is such great news for me to be able to pick up the bill off the table today, to flick through to get through the back of the bill, in Part 1B, clause 20M, that those regulation-making powers are now within this bill. That\u2019s exactly what The Hashtags asked for; that\u2019s exactly what a number of young people, even throughout Porirua, have asked for. So I commend the Minister for putting that future-proofing, regulation-making power within this bill. That is what will strengthen this for future generations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThe failure to support this bill from the other side of the House is disappointing, because what it fails to recognise is that the generation coming through wants these changes. They want to strengthen the vaping laws; they want to be a smoke-free generation. I\u2019m so proud of the side of the House and the members from the Green Party who are also commending this bill to the House, and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022 data-id=\u00221f8089c10dca4ccf95a45761aa7565da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f8089c10dca4ccf95a45761aa7565da\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a real pleasure to be able to rise and take a call on this bill. It\u2019s the second reading of the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products (Smoked Tobacco) Amendment Bill. As a member of the Health Committee, I do want to acknowledge Minister Ayesha Verrall, but also the members of the Health Committee and those who had to sub in and out of our committee at the time of our meetings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EThe bill, as we have heard from a number of other speakers, has three arms and in particular the reduction of retailers. I have heard a speaker on the other side of the House mention that she\u2019s not aware of how it has arrived at just 10 percent of the retailers, in terms of the proposals. That is a bold move, but it is required because smoking has become a normalised behaviour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard our speakers on this side of the House who are really concerned with the goals that we are leaving our future rangatahi, our future tamariki, and certainly we want a smoke-free environment. In fact, when you go out to the service industry, many of the retailers, many of the businesses now have smoke-free environments, which are healthier. We\u2019ve heard our colleague Barbara Edmonds talk about the sporting arenas where smoking behaviour is not acceptable. So when I hear other members of this House, I want to challenge them that as parliamentarians we want to give good bills and legislation that help preserve the health of Kiwis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019ve heard other speakers talk about their concern for retailers. We have to decide as parliamentarians: is it the economic wellbeing or is it the health and wellbeing of our rangatahi and tamariki and our current generations? And I want to acknowledge all of the members from this side that are really promoting and providing the summary as to why we are supporting this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EWe understand from the evidence that smoking rates for M\u0101ori are now at 19 percent, down from 22.3 percent just a year ago, 18 months ago, and that\u2019s got to be a good thing. And one of the drivers of this success has been about the co-design of the Quit programmes and the amount of people, 56,000, that are no longer smoking and adhering to that because they\u2019re getting the right supports. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EI also was one of the members who attended the hearings in South Auckland and I do want to acknowledge whaea Catherine Manning, who\u2019s up there and has been for a long time a strong advocate for our community with M\u0101ori and also strongly supporting Pasifika. I want to acknowledge all of the submitters that came along that day. We\u2019ve heard that we had nearly 2,000 written submissions, over 80 oral submissions. They ranged from the elderly, the people who have families, and it was really gut-wrenching when you heard the tamariki talk about their previous m\u0101m\u0101, their previous uncle, their previous p\u0101p\u0101, who no longer had the quality of life, and the effects of tobacco. We have the goal of becoming free of the devastating harm caused by tobacco and this bill is a step closer to smoke-free environments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EI do want to acknowledge, like my other colleagues have acknowledged, The Hashtags. You know, when we had the young people who came to M\u0101ngere, and you\u2019ve heard my colleague, who\u2019s a very proud member of M\u0101ngere, even though he\u2019s the member of Parliament for Takanini\u2014we heard really loud and clear from those young people, the 6-Bs, as we\u2019ve heard from Minister Aupito. They were bold and they were brown and they were brainy and they had a very clear message that it\u2019s got to be about smoke-free environments, because M\u0101ori and Pasifika communities, we suffer. We see that suffering week in, week out when we go back to our homes and we see those who are absolutely addicted to tobacco. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EI also want to commend the Minister. Tobacco is no good for our communities. Smoke-free is actually a really good thing, because many of our people who do not have that voice are trapped by tobacco harms. And on that note, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u002266e9d8ee438b4954a4c4aeb160e2cb2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266e9d8ee438b4954a4c4aeb160e2cb2e\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise to speak on the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products (Smoked Tobacco) Amendment Bill. I am not on the Health Committee any longer but I am pleased that my previous colleagues, who are on there now still, spent considerable time listening to and reading a number of the submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EI also listened with some amusement to Maureen Pugh talking about her days driving along in a car full of smoke. My father also smoked, and, I can assure her, it was worse when the window could be opened and you were sitting in the backseat and the ash and the smoke just came directly to you. So, I think, either way, being in a car with smokers was not much fun to young kids.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ENational absolutely supports a smoke-free agenda, and I think it is really important that we are really clear on that, and we are proud to have established the 2025 smoke-free targets. However, we don\u2019t support the bill because of the timing and the prioritisation of the initiatives within the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ENow, the significant parts of the bill are the limiting of the number of retailers able to sell smoked tobacco products, and that being the first initiative that is implemented. This poses considerable risks to retailers, both from a safety perspective and a viability perspective, and I\u2019ll speak a little more about that later. It also aims to prevent young people from taking up smoking by prohibiting the sale of smoked tobacco products to anyone born on or after 1 January 2009. Of course, Dr Shane Reti showed that there were some limitations to that approach and wanted a little bit of caution to that approach because, in other jurisdictions where it had been implemented, it wasn\u2019t showing high success rates. The bill also aims to make smoked tobacco products less appealing and less addictive. Again, Dr Reti has done a lot of the work around this, and we particularly agree with this initiative.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ESo the National Party certainly agrees with the intent, it agrees with the 2025 targets and the initiatives, just not the timing and the prioritisation of the initiatives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ESo reducing the retail availability by limiting the number of retailers down from 6,000 to 600\u2014it has been spoken about earlier that there is no science to this. It is a figure that has just been plucked out of the air. There are some real concerns around what will happen and the unintended consequences of making this the first initiative. In making this the first initiative, there are concerns that a number of dairy owners will go out of business, and that the safety of those that are within the 600 will be compromised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019ve spent some time talking to dairy owners about this. Just last week, I asked one of the dairy owners that I visited to outline for me what she felt she would have to do in terms of security if she was one of the 600 that would be able to sell tobacco or sell cigarettes, and the cost and the safety aspects of this were considerable. We know that the dairy owners have said they are not opposed to this long term; they\u2019ve just said if they could have a two-year window in which to turn their operating models around, they would find it acceptable. And given that these dairy owners are the people that have been suffering most under the current situation of ram raids and blatant thefts\u2014and, in fact, that was one of the reasons I was visiting a dairy owner at the end of last week when she was talking about the blatant theft that goes on now with the soft-on-crime approach that Labour has had and the emboldenment of those that come in and just will take goods from her dairy. So there are issues around the viability of these dairies and the safety of the dairy owners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EI also spent some time talking with the Cancer Society when I was collecting for the Cancer Society earlier this year. Obviously, they are very, very positive about changes to the legislation, but I was trying to explain that, while we agreed with the intent, it was the order in which it was going to occur that we were concerned about. Talking to a number of smokers\u2014and, yes, I do still have some friends and family members who are smokers\u2014I think we have to be very, very careful that we don\u2019t get too smug and self-righteous about this. For a variety of reasons, people are carrying on smoking, and so we have to be very, very careful that we are not demonising them, that we are showing a degree of compassion to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ESo I was concerned at the way in which the Minister spoke disrespectfully of Dr Shane Reti and his approach to this legislation. I think it was disingenuous of the Minister to have been so scathing of the National position when the National position has been very much that we agree with the intent, we agree with the targets, and, therefore, Dr Shane Reti had taken a bipartisan approach and wanted to progress a much more scientific driven model, a model which had picked up on what has been successful in other jurisdictions. So I felt it was incredibly disrespectful that the Government were not prepared to consider what he was putting forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s very regrettable that they were not prepared to consider just a change of the timing of the initiatives so that dairy owners would not bear the impact of the initiative which was considered to have the greatest weight of evidence, being the denicotinisation, being by far and away the most effective. And we were certainly very, very supportive of that being rolled out first, and we felt that might well have done 80 percent of the heavy lifting of the reduction that we wanted to see, particularly when the Minister herself had said there was much uncertainty to the initiative around reducing the number of retail outlets and, really, it was being picked as the easiest one to do. That does not seem to me like a very good reason to have put people\u2019s whole dairies and livelihoods at risk, when the change in prioritisation could have made a great difference and could have brought in the support of the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ESo there has been, I believe, considerable virtue-signalling, as this Government is wont to do, around the timing of what they are wanting to bring in first out of the three main initiatives in this. Had they gone with the evidence, had they gone with what had been most successful in other jurisdictions, had they taken the time to consider, perhaps, the least harm to those dairy owners who are doing it incredibly hard at this time because of their soft-on-crime approach, this could have been a much more generally supported piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EI just reiterate that National absolutely supports a smoke-free agenda. We support the 2025 targets. We just do not support this legislation because of the unwillingness to try and be flexible with the prioritisation and the timing. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022 data-id=\u00225bfec28090224237bd7c64405e635aa3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225bfec28090224237bd7c64405e635aa3\u0022\u003ESARAH PALLETT (Labour\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you so much, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s with enormous pleasure that I rise to speak in favour of the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products (Smoked Tobacco) Amendment Bill at the second reading. I want to join some of my colleagues in sharing praise for our chair, Tangi Utikere, and, of course, to our enormously courageous Minister, the Hon Dr Ayesha Verrall, who has brought this legislation into the House, which is going to be an extraordinary move that will be a world-first in reducing smoke harm. I also need to thank the clerks and officials, who worked so incredibly hard, and, of course, my colleagues on the Health Committee, a very hard-working committee, as we\u2019ve heard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003EIn part, I\u2019d like to begin by acknowledging the 1,956 written submissions that we received. We heard 84 of those as oral submissions. They broadly fell into two categories, both of which I actually have a great deal of sympathy for. The first, primarily, were submitters that spoke extraordinarily bravely about loved ones they had lost to smoke-related harm, whether through direct cigarette smoking or second-hand smoke exposure. Extraordinarily moving\u2014we heard submitters who brought members of the committee to tears\u2014and they brought home to us the realities of what we are, in fact, talking about here today. To quote Professor Hoek, \u201CTobacco is the only product that kills people when it is used as intended.\u201D It kills 12 people every single day in Aotearoa New Zealand. So you\u2019ll forgive me if I agree with the position of the Minister, the Hon Dr Ayesha Verrall, that we need to do something and do it swiftly. Twelve people\u2019s lives are hanging on this decision. The second category of submitters were people whose businesses would be significantly impacted by this legislation. We heard nine submissions from the tobacco industry, who, unsurprisingly, expressed a negative view of the bill, except for the manufacturer of low-nicotine products, who supported it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e7bab061-0905-44a1-a4ec-cf89b58a1baf\u0022\u003ENow, submissions of evidence presented to support arguments are, in fact, an exercise for us in assessing credible research. One of the most important factors, when we\u2019re considering whether research presented to us is credible or not, is bias. You always have to ask yourself who stands to benefit\u2014who stands to benefit? Minister Verrall stands not for corporate profits but for the 12 people every day who die from entirely preventable causes. The bottom line is that you can come back, you can reframe a business model that relies on a product that kills 50 percent of its users\u2014it is no small thing; it is not a small ask; it is challenging and difficult and we acknowledge that, but it can be done\u2014but there is no coming back from the dead. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6c262ae366b4f8a84ecdfa8fa0088b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6c262ae366b4f8a84ecdfa8fa0088b7\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the amendments recommended by the Health Committee by majority be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002295941d8291704286ac4a0f236396f1ba\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 74\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 41\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 31; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002271ad84bb45c3415ab8c44498bf49c1cf\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products (Smoked Tobacco) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 74\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 41\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 31; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000768\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00220e451bd53c914ba392bf8e2e94fd2fd6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e451bd53c914ba392bf8e2e94fd2fd6\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Natural Hazards Insurance Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022308dc501aab64f3492b4e63e68d94011\u0022\u003ENatural Hazards Insurance Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022112c2e7286a54a7ea41a496f17f84d8b\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022580ca071d9714da79acad13cf3baf533\u0022\u003EParts 1 to 6, Schedules 1 to 3, and clauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00229d0f690831bf4655bfeaa11eb8a0dd30\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d0f690831bf4655bfeaa11eb8a0dd30\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to the Natural Hazards Insurance Bill. Members, we come now to Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u00229632255d0b874b74ae79a0bc66f7e16b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229632255d0b874b74ae79a0bc66f7e16b\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chair. I seek leave for all provisions to be taken as one debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00227a38b7ea062540ffafc6cc72a2ebbe12\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a38b7ea062540ffafc6cc72a2ebbe12\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to the motion? No objections. We will take it as one debate. The question is that Part 1 to Part 6, Schedules 1 to 3, and clauses 1 and 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u00226e121b501fb64c1ca1b4e75870455902\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e121b501fb64c1ca1b4e75870455902\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister responsible for the Earthquake Commission):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to open proceedings on the Natural Hazards Insurance Bill. Before taking questions on the bill, I\u2019d like to make a few remarks about why the bill is needed. In response to the experience of homeowners during the Canterbury earthquakes and the Kaik\u014Dura earthquake in 2016, a public inquiry into the Earthquake Commission (EQC) was established. It was led by Dame Silvia Cartwright, and the inquiry made 70 recommendations. They identified legislative, operational, and systemic areas requiring improvement in the design and administration of the EQC scheme and event response and recovery. Many of the inquiry\u2019s recommendations are being progressed through to connect key initiatives. One is, through this legislation, the modernisation of the EQC Act through the Natural Hazards Insurance Bill and, secondly, through fundamental changes to the commission\u2019s operating model through the development of the natural disaster response model. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe changes in the bill draw on lessons learnt, essentially, since the inception of the EQC Act. It replaces the Act and has three overarching objectives: the first is to enable better community recovery from natural hazards; the second is to clarify the role of the commission and the cover provided by the bill; and the third is to enhance the durability flexibility inherent in the legislation. It\u2019s a modernisation\u2014if I can characterise it that way\u2014of the EQC Act 1993 rather than a first-principles review. And that means it retains the current EQC insurance scheme. It changes the name of the Earthquake Commission to Toka T\u016B Ake\u2014Natural Hazards Commission to better reflect the role of the commission, the job that it is tasked with doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EI want to introduce six policy measures contained in the bill, which are aimed at clarity, and some of which address shortcomings in the existing Act. And really that goes to the issue I\u2019ve raised about being a clarification of the existing Act and lessons learnt, as well as adopting those changes from Dame Silvia Cartwright.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe first is the provision of role clarity for the commission itself. It\u2019s got a new purpose statement for the commission and for natural-hazard cover. The commission has also been provided with revised functions and new operational objectives that define the commission\u2019s operating boundaries. The second key policy covered off in this new bill is the requiring of a code of insured persons\u2019 rights. That\u2019s something that will need to be published on Toka T\u016B Ake\u2019s website and that has a complaints procedure set up, relating to it. The third policy area is the requiring of Toka T\u016B Ake to participate in an approved dispute resolution scheme. The fourth is clearer and fairer accountability for mixed-use buildings. The existing rules have been the subject of disputes along the way. That clarity makes it clearer and easier and extends the scheme as well to provide more equitable cover for residential owners who are in mixed-use buildings. The fifth area that\u2019s covered off is the \u201Cclear and fair\u201D cover for retaining walls, bridges, and culverts. And that makes clear the limits, the caps, that are covered by the Natural Hazards Commission for retaining walls. That\u2019s a cap of $50,000 per dwelling for retaining walls and $25,000 per dwelling for bridges and culverts. That means that private insurers can be really clear about what the top-up cover they are providing is, because those limits are set much more clearly. And that enables people to make better decisions, basically. The sixth area, before I make some closing comments, is the provision of a regular review of funding for the scheme, including the insurance caps and levy. It confirms the $300,000 plus GST EQC cap, which regulations brought into effect in October this year already, but it confirms it in legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EAnd a Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) has also been lodged\u2014which is the final thing I want to say before other members speak\u2014which makes a number of minor and technical adjustments which were identified by officials during the select committee process but would not be able to be progressed in the time frame necessary. But it\u2019s good to be transparent with the House about those changes, so members can read them for themselves. The SOP preserves the current practice, which is that claims for exacerbated damage which occur after an initial event\u2014for example, a house cracking after it settles\u2014are treated as part of the initial claim. That\u2019s one of the things covered off in the SOP. It also allows exceptions to the shared-property provisions for related parties to be specified in regulations, and a number of other small changes I won\u2019t speak to now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EI would invite comments from the committee. It\u2019s good to see that there\u2019s been general agreement around the bill, and I want to thank the Finance and Expenditure Committee for the constructive way that it engaged in this debate and refined the bill on the way through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022d0ffaeae56734ed1b2b0b7d33d49ed90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d0ffaeae56734ed1b2b0b7d33d49ed90\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you Madam Chair, and thank you, Minister. It is a good bill, the Natural Hazards Insurance Bill, and the National Party certainly supports it. One of the areas in which I had a concern\u2014which you\u2019ll be aware of, Minister\u2014is that the insurance companies would get 18 months clear to introduce their new pricing and systems to comply with the new bill. My first question would be: will this be able to be achieved? So would we need the third reading by the end of the sitting year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u00221ca9321b3d6b487db389bdf4a53ff9c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ca9321b3d6b487db389bdf4a53ff9c2\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister responsible for the Earthquake Commission):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for the question, which is a very good one. It is going to be the will of the House as to whether we get that far through. But I do want to thank members for allowing this to be taken as one debate, which I think will enhance greatly our chances of getting that through. I think all of us in this House do want as much time for the implementation of this scheme as possible, so that the adjustments to IT systems and other things\u2014which is a concern I know the National Party raised in committee\u2014can be taken account of as this legislation is progressed and then implemented. So it\u2019s my sincere hope that it will get through this year, but, again, it will be the will of the House. And I want to thank members for their cooperation in at least setting up that possibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2bd2c6bc43642ba95caf83486e4bc59\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2bd2c6bc43642ba95caf83486e4bc59\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, I must report progress on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00228ccf511a88db45ac9c2f91ca83c794ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ccf511a88db45ac9c2f91ca83c794ab\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Natural Hazards Insurance Bill and reports progress. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00226dd267b22b3e44b6b67a3fe01b18cb05\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226dd267b22b3e44b6b67a3fe01b18cb05\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The Natural Hazards Insurance Bill is set down for further consideration in committee next sitting day. Members, the House stands adjourned until 2 p.m. tomorrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2022120616169ed5193f4c6697c29a4c4c064084000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 9.57 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"