"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227366cea0eacf41bf999144b8672ef4c0\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 13 DECEMBER 2022\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002288afa950ac364190bf2ccfa40f365a80\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 13 DECEMBER 2022\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a0002c8f664a4f2d988a2f0f8536f184\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e57b411122614b15b56596ee0d676f82\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002278898ec777984ebeaeb71ab462ddb774\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002278898ec777984ebeaeb71ab462ddb774\u0022\u003EHon JACQUI DEAN (Assistant Speaker):\u003C/span\u003E Almighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the King and pray for guidance in our deliberations that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom, justice, mercy, and humility for the welfare and peace of New Zealand. Amen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002287a3e0863a4e4278b9fb45845e9c6dd0\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002290eed84eec184032aea19536c738cd48\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022d62d53b97a4443f595b29b0fe3ddd5e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d62d53b97a4443f595b29b0fe3ddd5e7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Petitions have been delivered to the Clerk for presentation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00228fa128d9137b40a8b3911104fedc4a81\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228fa128d9137b40a8b3911104fedc4a81\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EPetition of the Free Speech Union requesting that the House remove clause 15 from the Counter-Terrorism Acts (Designations and Control Orders) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Jake Roos on behalf of Low Carbon K\u0101piti requesting that the House urge the Minister of Energy and Resources to drop plans for a proposed biofuels obligation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe2fd151e3b94f8e93b151836917f912\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe2fd151e3b94f8e93b151836917f912\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those petitions stand referred to the Petitions Committee. Ministers have delivered papers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022017a8d309a884ca696f1e6ee6f4fb7ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022017a8d309a884ca696f1e6ee6f4fb7ba\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2021-22 annual reports for the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EClassification Office\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ECadastral Surveyors Licensing Board of New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Trade and Enterprise\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EOffice of the Children\u2019s Commissioner, and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EClimate Change Commission \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2022-26 strategic intentions for the Ministry of Health \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ENotice of declaration of inconsistency: Voting age, in the Electoral Act 1993 and the Local Electoral Act 2001.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00224514b61abfe744eda00b9d983174b551\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224514b61abfe744eda00b9d983174b551\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I present the Register of Pecuniary and Other Specified Interests of Members of Parliament: Summary of amendments to annual returns and initial returns of newly elected members, December 2022. I also present the following reports of the Controller and Auditor-General, entitled:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EObservations from our central government audits, 2021-22\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EInsights into Local Government 2021, and \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003ECoordination of all-of-Government response to the COVID-19 pandemic to 2020. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EThose papers are published under the authority of the House. Select committee reports have been delivered for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022fda39af97b9a480c8cdc7b73f29323a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fda39af97b9a480c8cdc7b73f29323a8\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReports of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee on the\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of Barnabas Fund New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Etwo petitions of Greenpeace Aotearoa\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of Nigel Woodley\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Governance and Administration Committee on the Fire and Emergency New Zealand (Levy) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Petitions Committee on the petitions of\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EDr Elizabeth Kerekere\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EAngelo Dumlao\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EJan Logie MP\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EJo Millar on behalf of Grey Power Otago Incorporated\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EMaarten Wagenaar\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EMaryam Ghadery\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EPete Young\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ERobert Forsyth\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EVince Siemer, and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EBrian Borland\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ereport of the Social Services and Community Committee on the Report of the Controller and Auditor-General Inquiry into the Ministry of Social Development\u2019s funding of private rental properties for emergency housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022408a21423c00485ca30371a24448206b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022408a21423c00485ca30371a24448206b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is set down for second reading. The report on the Report of the Controller and Auditor-General is set down for consideration. No bills have been introduced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022489b8a2f595245d08092dab93aa24cd7\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a8c9941e890e412a897f5753385ed0b0\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002265e05d9894fe4f8481a05e0ed1a78670\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u002252fcb3d01a1e4e65a8d03e97a4769fd3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252fcb3d01a1e4e65a8d03e97a4769fd3\u0022\u003EBARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports has he seen on the New Zealand economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022074e738453f24022ac3bd5f014cca56c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022074e738453f24022ac3bd5f014cca56c\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E The construction sector is continuing to grow. Statistics New Zealand reported that the volume of building activity rose 3.8 percent in the September quarter. Residential construction rose 3.1 percent, while industrial and commercial building activity increased 4.9 percent. The result was above economists\u2019 expectations, and has led them to revise upwards their forecast for GDP in the September quarter. The economy is expected to grow solidly in the September quarter, if not as strong as in the previous June period when the economy expanded 1.7 percent. We know that 2023 is going to be a difficult year for the global economy and that this will affect New Zealand\u2019s prospects, but New Zealand finds itself in a strong starting position, with unemployment near record lows, exports growing, and tourists returning in greater numbers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c54852acf3744e9eaf18557a351de653\u0022\u003EBarbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: What other reports has he seen on the economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d42fcb6fa142487293862dd5e1228f22\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Momentum in the economy is expected to continue into the December quarter, though activity has shown signs of slowing. Statistics New Zealand report that the New Zealand activity index, a composite index of activity across the economy, rose 3.1 percent in October, compared to the same period a year ago. Activity indicators were up in electronic card transaction activity, grid demand, and job advertisements, together with a reduction in job seeker numbers. Both the activity outlook and the BNZ-Business New Zealand Performance of Manufacturing Index fell.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ac9c5ca34434626a0f8738008e002e9\u0022\u003EBarbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has he seen on net migration, and how is it impacting on the economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228636a373fdda49f3a264ecc5743adf13\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Statistics New Zealand reported that there was a net gain of 3,300 people arriving in October, with an estimated 11,400 arrivals, and 8,100 departures. Our immigration reset is working and attracting the overseas workers with the skills that businesses require to rebuild the economy. Yesterday\u2019s announcement to expand the Green List will further support businesses to recruit internationally to fill the shortages we have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c938a58b42640b6990e34d0b633ca1c\u0022\u003EBarbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has he seen on the international context for the New Zealand economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a78066751ee947b4b04713dcea3f3f1b\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Global factory output fell widely in November. In the United States, its manufacturing Purchasing Managers\u2019 Index, or PMI, fell to 49, below the 50 level that marks growth in activity. In Europe, its manufacturing PMI stood at 46.4, while in the UK and China, manufacturing activity shrank for a fourth month in a row. The deteriorating global economy is affecting New Zealand\u2019s prospects as we head into next year. We\u2019ll be facing a period of high inflation, which is then forecast to be followed by a shallow recession. New Zealand does find itself well positioned to deal with what the world throws at us, with the Government\u2019s books in good shape and our debt levels among the lowest in the world. We will continue to carefully and responsibly prioritise our spending without unnecessarily adding to inflation. This is a balanced approach that gives us choices and flexibility to respond and support New Zealanders as the global environment changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022deb437527fc3417dab126c6240f66380\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u002209d99309e25042c5a6e1cde5e156ccd2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002209d99309e25042c5a6e1cde5e156ccd2\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER LUXON (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all of her Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u00229277fb3992594b8bb3d267b13dd1f5ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229277fb3992594b8bb3d267b13dd1f5ad\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, particularly this Government\u2019s continued action to support businesses to recruit new workers internationally to fill critical skills shortages. The whole world is experiencing labour shortages. We have approved over 94,000 job positions for international recruitment. We\u2019ve granted over 40,000 working holiday visas. We\u2019ve reopened the Pacific Access category and Samoa quota. We\u2019ve delivered the largest increase in a decade to the Recognised Seasonal Employer scheme, and we\u2019ve resumed the skilled migrant category and parent category, to strengthen our international offering. But there is more that we can do. That is why we have expanded the Green List settings to include more professions in our healthcare, education, and construction sectors, but, as you can see, there is a global workforce shortage. New Zealand continues to do all it can to remain competitive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232567a49787b487a951adb8bc924beb3\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Did Minister Mahuta inform her about the proposed three waters entrenchment Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) after she received advice about it in October, and, if not, why is she still a Minister? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221994e29d2e7240a992286edf66688a3c\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: As I\u2019ve said in this House and publicly many times, the SOP that was passed through the committee stage was tabled after caucus. Also, this is an issue that we ensured was fixed before the final bill passed. We\u2019ve acknowledged it was a mistake.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4bad4dce655461c92e921a7bc99e5ba\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Why is Nanaia Mahuta still a Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e30de76deaa64f54aa531ca649145b79\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Because Nanaia Mahuta is an excellent Minister, and I will stand by that Minister for the work that she does on our behalf on the world stage, for the work that she does at home, fixing infrastructure that Governments time and time again ignored we had a massive deficit in. It has been a contributing factor to the housing crisis we have. It is one of the reasons that you cannot swim in Auckland beaches right now and why we have boil water notices in towns up and down this country. Minister Mahuta finally stood up and did something about it, and I stand firm with her.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b663a565acd45a7a4307486b01567f2\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Is she honestly saying that she considers a Minister holding up a Whittaker\u2019s chocolate bar for social media to be a breach of the Cabinet Manual, but yet a Minister deliberately flouting a clear Cabinet decision on entrenchment is not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243a8dabaaa944335a828926353683324\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s last past of the question is incorrect; the Minister did not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b99e75568fd5401fb86e8afed159589f\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: How does she think Kiwis who have spent months on surgical wait-lists because of her inability to admit her mistakes are going to feel now that, seven months later, she has suddenly realised New Zealand has a nursing shortage?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227787003f2a6c4a8f882c1939fac6aa71\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: We have had 2,900 nurses come into this country during the pandemic. We have had, this year, 4,500 internationally trained nurses\u20144,500 internationally trained nurses\u2014register with the Nursing Council. We\u2019ve had 900 in November alone\u2014record numbers. The change we made yesterday is about maintaining our competitive edge and attracting health workers whilst many other countries experience a similar shortage, and I stand by that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fbca5063985435ebbf0934fb9da3ae7\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Why couldn\u2019t she just admit she got it wrong and offer nurses immediate residency seven months ago, as National and the whole health sector was calling for?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227566a6de53f74ef893c762a62e03f447\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: The member continually mischaracterises what we did in the first place, which was to fast-track nurses from the position they had under National to residency, and it demonstrates the difference it made with the record numbers that we had seeking registration with the Nursing Council. We want to stay one step ahead of a globally competitive environment, and that\u2019s why we made the changes we have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a03c254d2ff64fe2aaf038521b642346\u0022\u003EHon Michael Wood\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister agree with public comments that have been recently made that New Zealand\u2019s borders should have been fully opened in November last year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227577967433cf445280e97237d5d8eaae\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, could you just repeat the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f899b50fd1c4b3ea3c176ca04fbeeb2\u0022\u003EHon Michael Wood\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister agree with public comments recently made that the Government should have fully reopened the borders in November of last year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f3c3a3fc7174b82a22665a68e9e3a88\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I stand by every decision that we have made, including the member\u2019s decisions on bringing back in and expediting the visa processing for those where we\u2019ve had shortages. I also stand by the member\u2019s immigration rebalance work, which has meant we are recruiting for 90,000 places right now. I also stand by Minister Little\u2019s work to improve nurses\u2019 pay, because it\u2019s not just about visas; it\u2019s also about attracting people with the working conditions. I stand by this Government\u2019s work on those shortages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fe89ab4c9904632af9252c6d817388d\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, goodness. She said she\u2019s finally planning to tell her Ministers to focus and start prioritising. Does that mean that she\u2019s also now planning to U-turn on the TVNZ-RNZ merger, her farm emissions overreach, and the jobs tax?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272c8005354df46d7b0050cb822a7be8d\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I stand by that statement. I\u2019ve asked members to go away and, over summer, make sure that in 2023, we continue to focus on the economy, on supporting New Zealanders through what will be a difficult time, through an economically volatile period\u2014just in the same way that we have already reduced fuel at the pump, the cost of living payment, and the increase in the family tax credit. All of this, we know, has already made a difference to low and middle income earners; compare that with the one idea the National Party has had, which they may or may not have reversed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e1ad3fb7312442781dc17d5301ad2c3\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t it the case that she\u2019s totally lost control of her Cabinet, she cannot admit when she\u2019s wrong, and she\u2019s now just desperately cancelling her agenda in response to bad polls and bad press?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258e1eb2eccc9440faa2c5c583a15311d\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220a74a88567ac4a78941cb881833e3793\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Housing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022 data-id=\u002293192a5d3ce843c09b581093b5ba6313\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293192a5d3ce843c09b581093b5ba6313\u0022\u003ET\u0100MATI COFFEY (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing: What actions has the Government taken to achieve better housing outcomes for the people of Rotorua?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022487cd4d4770c432787e8c9b753327506\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022487cd4d4770c432787e8c9b753327506\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E On Friday, we signed the Rotorua Housing accord with Rotorua Lakes Council and Te Arawa iwi. The accord renews the commitment by all parties to work collaboratively on addressing Rotorua\u2019s chronic housing shortage and improve emergency housing. The accord builds on the significant progress already made as of November 2022, including that the number of motels used for emergency housing has fallen by 20 since November 2021, and we plan to have only three mixed-use motels left by Christmas. The number of households in emergency housing was 372 households in December 2021, and that has now fallen to 168 households as at November 2022. We\u2019ve brought on 230 public housing places since 2017, and we are seeing increasing private developments, with 390 new building consents issued in the year to October 2022, compared to 64 consents in the year to June 2014.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acc7d4813e1d44c3892a5bd60758656c\u0022\u003ET\u0101mati Coffey\u003C/span\u003E: What does the accord seek to achieve?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef64d77840964833b90a3b6781628331\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: The accord signifies the strong, ongoing commitment for central government, local government, and iwi to build a better housing future for Rotorua. Rotorua\u2019s population increased by over 9,000 people after 2013, but only 1,200 private homes were built. Rotorua also suffered a net loss of 42 public homes under the last Government. Specifically, the accord seeks to reduce the reliance on emergency housing, it seeks to provide better support and care for people in emergency housing, and, importantly, increase housing supply to ensure more Rotorua people have access to safe, dry, warm, permanent homes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4b35b9652694cfb8ff04807d845a3eb\u0022\u003ET\u0101mati Coffey\u003C/span\u003E: How does the accord complement work already under way in Rotorua?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236482afb3d92487b9363eecfd50ed284\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: In mid-2021, through the Rotorua Housing Taskforce, we established Te Pokap\u016B, the Rotorua Housing Hub. We contacted emergency accommodation for families and wh\u0101nau with children and provided additional wraparound social support services. We\u2019ve also invested in housing and infrastructure, including around 330 public and transitional homes under construction or in planning by K\u0101inga Ora community housing providers and iwi and M\u0101ori, and over $139 million for transport and water infrastructure through the Infrastructure Acceleration Fund and shovel-ready funding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce25458bb48346eebbbe4ae6f29055aa\u0022\u003ET\u0101mati Coffey\u003C/span\u003E: What feedback has she heard about the accord?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf0cf90b11ad4230bed8742383b5e018\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Rotorua mayor Tania Tapsell says the accord responds to the urgent need to end mixed-use tourism accommodation and deliver better housing solutions for those in need. Mayor Tapsell also said the accord was a huge win for us here in Rotorua and we will see visible changes within a year. Rawiri Waru, the chairman of Te Arawa working party, responding to the emergency housing, said, \u201CWe agree that housing development, which is environmentally friendly and sustainable, is desperately needed in Rotorua. \u2026 [The] accord recognises our collaborative duty to address the chronic housing crisis and tackle the many issues that have emerged from it.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b9d857694d1f4ac49bfefd928bbf5793\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u00227c5f3ea8ba9f4e4f843e5c9fb428f286\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c5f3ea8ba9f4e4f843e5c9fb428f286\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all her Government\u2019s statements and policies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022 data-id=\u00224038a1a83db9407dbf2cc3f9a32daa01\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224038a1a83db9407dbf2cc3f9a32daa01\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. I was especially delighted to see the support on the forecourt today from across the House for our world champion Black Ferns, and I stand by the support that we as a Government have provided this and other major women\u2019s sporting events\u20142023 will be a very big year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a00b76d13e0446538334765a944b9247\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: When will she show some leadership and sack Nanaia Mahuta?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022075bbd1b41c84b8387793a08bc3a09b2\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Obviously, as I\u2019ve already said in this House, I have no such intention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225aae1d932fea45e1806ef9e5244681ee\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: How will New Zealand become a more peaceful and united country from the introduction of a law that allows people to be fined or jailed for \u201CInsulting a religion\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249539da1b92848fca0fd589b08fe9ba3\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: As we have debated and discussed in this House many times before, we already have provision in our Human Rights Act to prevent incitement based on ethnicity or race. What we have simply done is add the word \u201Creligion\u201D. If the member has a fundamental issue with the human rights legislation as it stands, that\u2019s a matter for the member. Obviously, on this side of the House, we support the existing legislation but believe it should be extended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9de4cc4e9e94484b9849cc742b13c70\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: So is the Prime Minister\u2019s position that this addition of religion to the Human Rights Act will make no difference, or that it will actually allow people to be prosecuted for insulting religions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265c26f92983043ab918bdda8d6331555\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: No. My argument is not that it will make no difference; my argument is that we already have an existing framework in which the legal parameters can already be tested around issues like, for instance, race, and we have added now the additional word of \u201Creligion\u201D. That is based, of course, on the experience that we\u2019ve had in New Zealand\u2014the sad experience we\u2019ve had in New Zealand\u2014and the recommendation of the royal commission. The royal commission did make suggestion that some of those definitions, more broadly, should be altered. A consultation document was put out on that. It received a lot of feedback. Then, we\u2019ve asked the Law Commission to support wider work because our aspiration remains to get cross-party consensus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ddc8cebf4d74ced9f66c785b6cac238\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does she stand by her various statements blaming foreign factors for inflation when home-grown food just increased 10.7 percent year on year in New Zealand according to Stats New Zealand yesterday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222607c5c4a7a64b58965f22bfb88b529a\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c49acaa9867425f9bdd5c1b7aee3eaa\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does she stand by her various statements that other countries have it worse, when a net 15,000 New Zealanders chose to vote with their feet and move to other countries in the year to November?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c043eabbed114b138f12de28ba97ba04\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: The member has already heard me talk about the net positive growth we\u2019ve had when it comes to migration. I\u2019ve not for a moment diminished the experience that New Zealanders are having as a result of inflation. What I have done is put into context the fact that we are not having that experience alone, and, relative to other countries, our experience is not as significant\u2014we\u2019re in the lower half of the 38 OECD nations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220beb1d9a47d64b5a8e9e064a1cd39d37\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Prime Minister say that her immigration policy is working when more people are leaving than coming?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287400b45040d4187826dd5f80df9a8eb\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Because the member is incorrect. As I already said in the House, if you look at the data, monthly migrants arriving are higher than departures, and this has been the trend over the past few months. The member can simply look at the numbers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f31f2b6b7f3478aadd7321216a4c550\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does she realise New Zealanders having to tighten their belts in a cost of living crisis are getting increasingly angry when they see her Government increase its own expenditure by $40 billion on pre-COVID levels, even next year and the year after that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022371b0f1a6a8f45a792f177b242d158e6\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: The member, again, is incorrect. Our spending as a reflection of a percentage of GDP has decreased from 34 percent down to 31 percent, where, traditionally, you tend to see those numbers trend across different Governments. We absolutely acknowledge the times that we are in, and we are acting accordingly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229389233a9c2645c78912708ab44bea58\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: So if this Government inherited spending at around 28 percent of GDP and will soon settle at 31 percent, has this Government increased spending as a percentage of GDP or decreased it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227467b530a24544beaaff256e22e221b2\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, it brings us back broadly into line with the trends that we have seen, with, of course, the interruption\u2014not insignificant\u2014of a one-in-100-year pandemic, where most members in this House supported the additional expenditure that was put in place by this Government to support business. It\u2019s one of the reasons we have one of the lowest unemployment rates that we have seen, at 3.3 percent, and it is one of the reasons we have such low unemployment for M\u0101ori, for Pacific, and for women, and we stand by that record.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5c6e717933142edac67335a6540ab8f\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Why has her Government convicted only three parents in five years for kids not attending school, when there are thousands of unexplained absences from New Zealand schools every day?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7fd755cccf14ce3bd82022538481a08\u0022\u003EHon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. The Government doesn\u2019t convict anybody. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022476e5a9b14b04aa1810223da3e8f8199\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a fair point. The member should reword his question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ebbe7b3bca44dcfa9c66de92909de52\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Why have there been only three convictions of parents for students not attending school in the period of this Government, when there are thousands of kids absent from school unexplained every day?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e1ccd3704f24f20a682c7372ba64bfe\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: The first point I would make is my recollection of the statistics; that is roughly the rate of conviction that you will have seen over a number of years, not just under this Government. It has not been a tool that is frequently used, and that, in part, is because of its level of effectiveness. The second point I\u2019d make is that\u2014putting aside the fact that during COVID, of course, those were abnormal years\u2014I don\u2019t believe anyone in this House would think that it would make much sense to make judgments around absence when we had the highest levels of flu season and a requirement to stay home if sick in the past few years; but keeping in mind, since 2015, we have seen a trend of increasing absence. If you look at some of the survey data, one of the issues that we\u2019ve seen grow is that some New Zealand families believe that it is OK to withdraw your child for large significant occasions or family holidays. We have a job to do across the board in reminding all families how important school attendance is, to boost the funding of attendance services\u2014as we have\u2014and continue to work at a community level to bring children back into school.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cab83b61990e4441b52382e2c82fae94\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister give an example of her making a mistake, apologising for it properly, and fixing it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aa2209f1-1889-4c24-b51d-cb2aedc7aa93\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246dda7756dfc444a8061158375bf45a5\u0022\u003ERt Hon JACINDA ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s been a number of occasions where we acknowledge that we will not have perfect responses. We\u2019ve openly said that, for instance, managed isolation and quarantine was something that was very difficult at the time and that there were people affected by it and that we would do things differently if we were ever confronted with that again. But I stand by the work that we\u2019ve done as a Government over this last year and over this past term\u2014we\u2019ve always made decisions that we believe to be in the best interests of New Zealand at the time. [Prime Minister resumes seat] He\u2019s such an arrogant prick. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022019040bae0a540f8a5670abeafe82aae\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u00225f6267cb1b2949c59cf1cd30634d053e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f6267cb1b2949c59cf1cd30634d053e\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Has he been instructed by the Prime Minister to look through the things he has on his agenda to ask himself whether \u201Ceither from a spending perspective and investment perspective, or just from a focus perspective, those are things that we should be prioritising at this point in time\u201D; if so, what initiatives, if any, has he identified should no longer be prioritised? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002270bb29827fa4442da0dd1d0f41c5899b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270bb29827fa4442da0dd1d0f41c5899b\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, the Prime Minister has indeed asked that of all Ministers to consider, over the summer period, these matters. Given the beautiful Wellington day that we have today, which indicated summer has started, I have identified some areas that I won\u2019t be prioritising. I won\u2019t be prioritising selling off State houses, I won\u2019t be prioritising cutting public services or under-investing in hospitals or schools, I won\u2019t be prioritising not paying nurses and teachers what they deserve, and I won\u2019t be prioritising a tax cut for the wealthiest New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6b271adddba48aea4cf33a2559ee56d\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think the Government\u2019s planned multimillion-dollar merger of Television New Zealand and Radio New Zealand should be prioritised while Kiwis are being squeezed by a cost of living crisis? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022720c1786334a4dbebe85424302ee42ea\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: This Government is very proud of what we have done to support New Zealanders through the cost of living pressures that they\u2019re facing, such as lifting benefits in 2020, 2021, and 2022, lifting the family tax credit, lifting childcare support, and providing the cost of living payment. We are able to do those things and also invest in other things as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274ec0498f09d427f9b0dc191027d92a5\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: So can he just confirm for the House that the TVNZ-RNZ merger is on the chopping block\u2014it\u2019s gone? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279c53d4e5bc74db599408dfa2d73f4ac\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm no such thing, but what really interests me\u2014what really interests me\u2014is that members across the House somehow seem to think that we can go into the future with public broadcasting with no funding whatsoever. But, actually, come to think of it, that\u2019s what they did for Radio New Zealand when they were in office. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d1deeb38bfb4a4091e59296085db5df\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think his proposal to impose a new jobs tax on every worker to pay for a gold-plated unemployment scheme will meet the Prime Minister\u2019s new test, or is the income insurance scheme set for the chop too? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c8df555510541e898f8441541d9d652\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s characterisation of the New Zealand Income Insurance Scheme is completely, wildly inaccurate, and she might like to have a chat to Gerry Brownlee and others who were part of a Government that introduced almost exactly the same payment for people in the wake of the Canterbury earthquakes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022903aa1332c494b60a42010fe9b46a93d\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister think the jobs tax will survive the summer, or is the Prime Minister after it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ea320610bd34286bf376620a13eeaa0\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The member is talking about something that doesn\u2019t exist. The New Zealand Income Insurance Scheme\u2014[Interruption] Well, here we go. Everything\u2019s a tax over there, except the tax cut that they wanted to give to the highest-income New Zealanders. On this side of the House, we will always look for ways to support New Zealanders to get through a cost of living crisis. We actually care about what happens to New Zealanders when they lose their jobs, unlike that lot over there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4e1a3a65e914b788522474e7fc6a66d\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: When did the Prime Minister first instruct him to do a line-by-line, initiative-by-initiative review, and was it before or after Minister Wood told The AM Show last week that he had not been asked to do anything of the sort? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4030c26fa8b48c1961f34a7f4d211aa\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister issues quite a few instructions, and I have in front of me here the Budget 2021 savings initiatives and the Budget 2022 savings initiatives. We take very seriously our job as responsible fiscal managers, and every day of the week we look to see what savings and reprioritisations we can make. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022716c4c5147a24267b7c64a0c6442dc3e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u00224791633ddae64917b1522997d271ad85\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224791633ddae64917b1522997d271ad85\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What reports has he seen about numbers of people undertaking vocational education and training?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022fbd2227da4264a10973721c99d4b5db5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fbd2227da4264a10973721c99d4b5db5\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m pleased to report that more than 240,000 New Zealanders have received free vocational training through the Targeted Training and Apprenticeships Fund since it was introduced in 2020 to encourage people into vocational education and training in high-demand industries. It includes more than 106,000 apprentices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f110cbb27ec44c49f9c1d71051c6559\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: What was the purpose of the Targeted Training and Apprenticeships Fund?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bf677ce6e7d4029873919a29cb6d85f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The Targeted Training and Apprenticeships Fund, or TTAF, which finishes at the end of this month, began in July 2020 and was part of the Government\u2019s response to COVID-19. It was designed to make it easier for those who wanted to train in strategically important industries where demand was expected to grow. COVID-19 resulted in many New Zealanders looking to retrain, and at the same time employers in key sectors were calling out for more skilled people. By removing fees, the extra funding gave many people the chance and the confidence to get into vocational training, to take on life-changing skills, and to help grow our workforce in ways that will benefit the country for decades to come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b08e6b7782d94865a4948c567fdbde2e\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: What groups and skill areas have particularly benefited from TTAF?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022946edc4f6da143359889b6308fe65a46\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The biggest areas of study were construction, at 30 percent; community support, at 19 percent; and our primary industries, at 18 percent. M\u0101ori represented around 20 percent of TTAF learners, while Asian learners were at around 15 percent and Pacific people around 9 percent of the total. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c98546f174804918b12ddae40cd39612\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: What impact has he seen on apprenticeship numbers overall?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280095e4ccbd94a5b8a0fd6772c7dbdcd\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Our investment in the Targeted Training and Apprenticeships Fund, as well as the Apprenticeship Boost initiative\u2014which has been extended until the end of next year\u2014is paying off. We\u2019ve seen large increases in apprentice numbers and people of all ages from across the community engaged in vocational education. The largest group of learners are aged 25 to 39, but a quarter are aged over 40, proving that the lifelong learning message is being heard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c073f39dd84947ca8e2d2e7e31bb0544\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: What options are available for people wanting to undertake vocational training in 2023?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7391a13c38643f1b793741f0e0455c7\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Is this really a good question today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206a107d04df1465f8fafb4a20f0f498a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Whilst the Targeted Training and Apprenticeships Fund is finishing next year, Kiwi learners might still be able to get free vocational education under the Fees-free scheme in 2023, even if they have received free training under TTAF. There\u2019s hope for you yet, Mr Brownlee\u2014there\u2019s future career opportunities out there for you. I encourage everyone already in training or thinking about vocational education to check it out at feesfree.govt.nz.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002200eaad94ee7342f3a210603738bbcd3f\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Justice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2eef774dfec44b8aae7cca74aaf2cd7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2eef774dfec44b8aae7cca74aaf2cd7\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: Is she confident the Government has the correct priorities in Justice?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022 data-id=\u002224139bac2faf408e9e13acd12415d77c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224139bac2faf408e9e13acd12415d77c\u0022\u003EHon KIRITAPU ALLAN (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, which include responding to law and order issues through an evidence-based approach; improving access to justice in tackling delays; supporting victims in the stewardship of the overall justice system, which include a wide range of areas from civil law to electoral law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022645dd6997b7842cd9eedd85864f0c74c\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: How can she be confident the Government has the correct justice policies when violent crime is on track to increase by almost 40 percent since 2017?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f8f3c46d09c42c6b6834303716bfedd\u0022\u003EHon KIRITAPU ALLAN\u003C/span\u003E: We have, on this side of the House as a Government, put record levels of police on to the beach. We are tackling violent crime by giving police more powers to go after organised criminals and their assets, and increasing the consequences of their offending. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a14478ffa03e4c6aba7cc4dde697ec94\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Following the Prime Minister\u2019s instruction for Cabinet Ministers to be looking through things that are on the agenda and just asking ourselves whether or not, either from a spending perspective or an investment perspective or just from a focus perspective, those are things we should be prioritising at this point in time, is she going to jettison hate speech legislation and shift her focus on to reducing violent crime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b10c47cc157847cfb5704e23b3c74c59\u0022\u003EHon KIRITAPU ALLAN\u003C/span\u003E: As previously stated, we have a broad range of priorities and one of those was responding to the royal commission. We\u2019re progressing with a carefully considered two-stage approach with a focused law change in response to that commission, which the member is well aware of. In addition, I can confirm that we will not be cutting costs on some of those key priorities, such as investing in victims. We have doubled the amount of support for the victims assistance scheme. That\u2019s one example of the many priorities that we have under way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244087dbc70e04acda12edde91c314559\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Has she asked the Prime Minister if she still thinks the Government should be bringing forward legislation to reduce the voting age to 16, now that she wants Ministers focused and carefully prioritising their efforts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9a974d9e77b44beb9ff989ca105f774\u0022\u003EHon KIRITAPU ALLAN\u003C/span\u003E: As the member will be well aware, this Parliament is obliged to consider that issue as a consequence of the Supreme Court\u2019s ruling, and we should do so absolutely seriously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213922d2cb37a4ae297af658b04811c8f\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Does it still make sense to prioritise reducing the prison population when violent crime is rising, creating new victims with every crime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295f00aa5a7614a1bab6e22d53bffff03\u0022\u003EHon KIRITAPU ALLAN\u003C/span\u003E: Look, this is one of many priorities. It\u2019s making sure that we get the settings right for our justice system. We have a broad range of targets and the member will be aware: 126 non-financial targets that are in the annual report\u2014many of those are focused towards victims, in supporting victims; and that is indeed one of our key priorities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a30b541e1848454f81ef4efd7ffeb4b4\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Tourism\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022 data-id=\u00227b7abccadf0f48588b035e92b994474e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b7abccadf0f48588b035e92b994474e\u0022\u003ENAISI CHEN (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Tourism: What reports has he seen on New Zealand\u2019s tourism recovery?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022 data-id=\u00224ee8f3c2abba4a69b5bb631d00ce0fd3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ee8f3c2abba4a69b5bb631d00ce0fd3\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH (Minister of Tourism):\u003C/span\u003E Data released from the International Visitor Survey shows that spend from all international visitors totalled over a billion dollars in the September quarter. I\u2019ve always been confident that once New Zealand\u2019s borders reopened, international tourists would return and spend throughout our regions and boost our economy. This survey shows that the world is still drawn to our fantastic country, and international tourists are happy to pay for what New Zealand has to offer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202354b2f9edf47918aae20575ad6bcd1\u0022\u003ENaisi Chen\u003C/span\u003E: How are our regions benefiting from the return of international visitors?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ce901e1ef4b4bcb8c58e23cf97877b0\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: Tourists are coming to New Zealand, and they\u2019re coming to the regions. Tourism electronic card transaction spend in eight regions was higher than pre-COVID levels. International spend in Gisborne had the greatest increase, up by 47 percent, closely followed by Hawke\u2019s Bay, up by 45 percent\u2014go the mighty East Coast. The regions are truly driving our tourism recovery, and it\u2019s fantastic to see that tourists are getting off the beaten track, spending money, and our regional economies are benefiting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9eb0fb05c6f4b37abbbd69293c01917\u0022\u003ENaisi Chen\u003C/span\u003E: How are tourists spending compared to other international visitors?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a2177cef1ae46339a5ae6d0bcef7137\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: International tourists spent $200 million more than international visitors who had come to see friends and relatives, despite making up similar volumes of arrivals. What this data tells us is that our value proposition to international tourists remains incredibly strong. International tourists are staying longer, spending more, and enjoying all that this fantastic country has to offer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237a745a0f5374500a0bc7c00027a0200\u0022\u003ENaisi Chen\u003C/span\u003E: What recognition has New Zealand received internationally?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022503e44587cf445e987b2cca211cc980c\u0022\u003EHon STUART NASH\u003C/span\u003E: Earlier this month, New Zealand received two highly coveted international tourism awards: Best Country: Long-Haul in the National Geographic Reader Awards 2022 and Auckland as the first destination listed on the Cond\u00E9 Nast Traveler\u2019s The 23 Best Places to Go in 2023\u2014even though that probably should have been Napier. I know these accolades will be welcomed by our amazing tourism operators up and down the country as they gear up for a bumper summer season. My vision for tourism is for New Zealand to be one of the top three aspirational destinations for the world\u2019s most discerning travellers, and it\u2019s playing out better than planned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cb298ecd615c46d9b3ea724726545034\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Immigration\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022d0c4ced80ad6415cbb2d128a886d945b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d0c4ced80ad6415cbb2d128a886d945b\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Immigration: Why were nurses and midwives not placed on the straight-to-residence pathway of the Green List in May, and on what date did he first receive advice, if at all, that the retention rates of migrant nurses and midwives are no longer a concern?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u00222e0e24c96a2d4575862553af348e752b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e0e24c96a2d4575862553af348e752b\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E When we launched the green list, we had some of the most competitive settings in the world for nurses and midwives, offering both groups a pathway to residence that did not exist for many of them under the previous Government. Since May, we have seen large numbers of nurses and midwives arrive in New Zealand, building on the thousands of health workers who have arrived since the pandemic began\u2014around about 3,500 nurses over that time. But, in recent months, we\u2019ve seen countries that we compete with strengthen their offering for skilled migrants, particularly in the health sector, where there is a global labour shortage. Our targeted adjustments to the green list announced yesterday will ensure that we remain internationally competitive and attractive to these migrants. To the second part of the member\u2019s question, it is a simple fact that once someone has attained residency in New Zealand, whether that is a nurse or any other profession, for that matter, they have the ability then to work in other professions. Overall, the judgment that the Government has made, within light of those international factors, is that it is desirable to have an offer that is as attractive and as simple as possible. We\u2019re focused on tackling immediate workforce shortages, and we have a simple message for any offshore nurses and midwives: come to New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294fead0eb1014a5395ab2b0a022f9e67\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: Does he now concede that the rationale for making nurses wait two years for residence\u2014that they might suddenly decide to stop nursing\u2014never made any sense; and why didn\u2019t he, when he first became the Minister, in June, take that opportunity to U-turn on a policy that no one in the health sector supported, rather than waiting another six months?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7b3e0d93aaf4ac482cb35396e342baa\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: I reject a number of assertions in the member\u2019s question. When the Government put in place the green list policy, we gave all 13 occupational groups of nurses a clear pathway to residency that did not exist previously. We have further streamlined and simplified that now. It\u2019s not a U-turn; it\u2019s an acceleration, and I think it will assist us in respect of the offer of nurses to come to New Zealand. What I note further is that the Government has worked closely with the health sector, not just to assess the situation of nurses and midwives but also to offer a streamlined residency pathway for other clinical workers and allied health workers. So this is a bigger package of changes to help our health sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b795b13f262e4d178160c3aac0fb49fe\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister describe the difference between a U-turn and an acceleration?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7a1a0d6c91447df9441fbbf9e809d56\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: A U-turn would be having a policy to give big tax cuts to the wealthiest New Zealanders and then dropping it; an acceleration would be a policy of having a two-year pathway to residence, which was an improvement on the previous situation, and then making it straight to residency\u2014something that has been welcomed by nearly every health sector group. The only people who seem to want to politicise it are the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022730f45291e4c4202a99337a317f4c4c3\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his response, on the topic of nurses on Newstalk ZB yesterday, when asked, \u201CHere\u2019s the thing, Minister: you guys are either stupid or stubborn\u201D, when he said, \u201CHmm, well, you can hardly call us stubborn.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022804b80a4d70140d4b356e88f4feb8e23\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: I encourage anyone to listen to my interview on Newstalk ZB last night, but it wasn\u2019t the most productive of conversations. The member opposite and I have had far more productive conversations most Friday mornings. If I can respond to that question, which Heather du Plessis-Allan didn\u2019t actually allow me to answer on Newstalk ZB, what I would say is that we have consistently said over the last few months, as we\u2019ve worked through these genuine issues of workforce shortages in health, which everyone acknowledges and every country around the world is dealing with, is that we would keep an open mind, that we would look at the settings, that we would continue talking to the sector, and that what we have done as a result of that hasn\u2019t just been, as the member has spoken about in question time today, to make changes to the settings around nurses and midwives; we have made more fundamental changes, which are going to be of significant assistance to the health sector. That is the opposite of being stubborn. That is listening and working with the sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eafaefb4b0364d7c9bfb34970e051556\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Transport\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef9ade4fd1fb434c8cc0403bf3cd9d53\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef9ade4fd1fb434c8cc0403bf3cd9d53\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: What recent announcements has he made about futureproofing New Zealand\u2019s transport system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u002217c1a817bbdb4bb1832205c8f1b034bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002217c1a817bbdb4bb1832205c8f1b034bb\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Over the past few weeks, we\u2019ve made several key announcements about futureproofing our transport system. The week before last, I announced the projects that will be funded by the Transport Choices package, which will make our towns and cities more people-friendly places to live, work, and visit, by investing in public transport, walking, and cycling in 46 councils across New Zealand. Then on Friday, I confirmed the Government\u2019s investment in the Eastern Busway extension, which has been warmly welcomed by people in Auckland and the eastern suburbs. This will provide reliable, high-frequency service to those people, saving customers about 20 minutes on their bus or train trip between Botany town centre and Britomart. And on Saturday, construction began on O Mahurangi \u2013 Penlink, a vital connection for North Auckland, linking the Whangapar\u0101oa peninsula with the wider Auckland region and providing residents with safer and more sustainable transport choices. The direction of travel is clear. We\u2019re getting on with delivering projects or upgrading transport connections for Kiwis while reducing congestion and greenhouse emissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b4806d026614ae0bfcebb905e0e5243\u0022\u003EHelen White\u003C/span\u003E: What are some of the key projects being funded by the Transport Choices package?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298369c3565574e8786944d1357ed20ef\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: Transport Choices is about funding quick-win projects that will be delivered over the next two years in councils all around New Zealand. To name just three, in Taup\u014D, we\u2019re funding the district council to build separated cycleways from the town to Acacia Bay, giving more transport options across the bridge, improving outcomes for new developments in the north, and upgrading cycle connections in a number of schools in the area. In Tauranga, we\u2019re investing in the Arataki multi-modal corridor\u2014very much welcomed by the commissioner of Tauranga, the Hon Anne Tolley\u2014with improved pedestrian crossing facilities, a separated cycleway, and better links for schools in the area. And in Auckland, we\u2019re investing to vastly improve travel times by upgrading feeder routes for the Northwestern busway, which will include 45 new bus stops, up to nine kilometres of special vehicle lanes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220637b3dcbfe4616bc596e19942c4d8c\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Bus stops won\u2019t win an election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221982d2bcbf85456b9b2775fe4ab4ec98\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and up to 10 new pedestrian crossings. And the member opposite\u2019s bench mate should also be very pleased about the investments in the Waimakariri district.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221537de2b7b8b414f9fee9e4f69c08eab\u0022\u003ENaisi Chen\u003C/span\u003E: How will the Eastern Busway improve travel connections for East Aucklanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228dec8d780206487d87803213f7915ea4\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: The Government\u2019s announcement of a $200 million investment in the Eastern Busway extension, which builds on stage one, which we\u2019ve already delivered in this term of Government, will cut travel times for residents of East Auckland in places like Pakuranga and Botany for those people who need to get into the city, while reducing congestion around the Pakuranga town centre. By 2028, the busway will carry up to 14,000 passengers per day, more than four times the 3,700 bus passengers prior to COVID-19. By 2048, that is expected to increase to up to 24,000 passengers per day. This is a game-changer for the people of the eastern suburbs of Auckland and it\u2019s been warmly welcomed by them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f677db8b-66c5-4794-953c-bdf7aa425710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220349b72cd204c36b19a6c64e1e0b75e\u0022\u003EMarja Lubeck\u003C/span\u003E: What benefits will O Mahurangi \u2013 Penlink deliver for residents in North Auckland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b9facacbc854cfc8ac38a9cce34f98e\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: As more people live and work in Silverdale, Whangapar\u0101oa, and the Hibiscus Coast, this new two-lane road and shared path will provide improved travel times and choices for a growing part of Auckland. The project will not simply support the surrounding community through more lanes for cars, as a separated, shared user path means people will be able to safely walk or travel or bike or scooter, helping to support our response to climate change. The project will also support much stronger public transport connections to the successful Northern Busway. Penklink is funded by the New Zealand Upgrade Programme, which now has $3 billion worth of projects in pre-construction works, with even more major projects set to get under way next year. Our Government is getting on and delivering the projects that matter to Kiwis in the transport system, and will reduce our emissions and give more transport choices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a2fc170a29ce48bf8cb431c7b34c4ebe\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd2801a86217415ab4bc8d6065acbb54\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd2801a86217415ab4bc8d6065acbb54\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order , Mr Speaker. With great regret, I raise this matter at the earliest possible convenience that I\u2019ve been informed about it. At the end of question 4, the Prime Minister made an exceedingly unparliamentary remark, which journalists are reporting from the on-demand video. I ask that you ask her to withdraw and apologise for that remark.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022139dfa49562b49f6aa35c47a4668a3a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022139dfa49562b49f6aa35c47a4668a3a9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s well aware of the correct procedure of raising\u2014if it\u2019s not raised at the time, you know, in my position now, I\u2019d need to go back and have a look at the record and then I\u2019ll make a decision about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229deee82aa8204325ae2e4995b3cfda3c\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, just to clarify\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288466a4fc2ab4d3e97c1aa72e842f827\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A new point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a26b46406974c70ae5a56b0876e6a83\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Well\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022043fe0e62b0d4ab1969620ccb4ffe3ce\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Or are you just going to disagree with\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299908df0a2a64d91ba6abc6bbdb1251a\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4a34db4360a40f6a136689eeaf65a8a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I follow what\u2019s recorded in the Hansard, not what\u2019s reported to the House via the member from the media. You know, if you\u2019re asking me, basically, saying, \u201CTrust me; I\u2019m going to do that on behalf of the House.\u201D, well, I\u2019m not going to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263fef2b7acc242ca9018783966901184\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Mr Speaker, you\u2019re required to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225999770ea4854e6c9fb32ff85e811153\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and I\u2019ve told the House that I will look at Hansard to deal with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250fbf45e4ca94ea7b28f49872d3e3a33\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order. It\u2019s quite usual\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222891df64fdab4d45aecb7c271718aba8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve actually ruled, so you can\u2019t speak to that point of order. If you\u2019re raising a new point of order, you can do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f32f3c69f3af4cd093a1da5176326261\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m just being helpful, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m just letting you know that it\u2019s not uncommon in circumstances like this for the Speaker to ask the person accused of making the unparliamentary statement if they had in fact made that statement, and to withdraw and apologise if they had.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ea8b0839a74489583eaba9a3c9a4583\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s correct, and if the member looked across the House, you would be able to see that I am not able to ask that member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228938d5ab7bd44a48c00261b7b8adb26\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9ae9edc06c3427496a082e1fbf48ad4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228669a69c6114417bbf1ddfd59e1b5d7e\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: No, but it was an interesting response, because I didn\u2019t want to talk about the Prime Minister not being here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e60cfd294b2948d4bd527196cdb20092\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, that\u2019s the last comment that I\u2019m going to entertain. To do so would be to break the Standing Orders myself; I\u2019m not going to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223e298af9dc2f4cf9a469f29ac9ef8d7c\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Local Government\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022926fb0448d4d46c89e1e1061c60b3298\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022926fb0448d4d46c89e1e1061c60b3298\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Local Government: Did she receive advice from the Department of Internal Affairs on 25 October raising the possibility that Hon Eugenie Sage would pursue entrenchment of provisions in the Water Services Entities Bill via Supplementary Order Paper and stating the Government would need to decide whether to support it; if so, how does she reconcile that with her answer to me in oral questions on 6 December, \u201CWe were made aware of the details of the SOP at the same time as he was\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u002296fde97e536f4c63b536b41f0cd605fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296fde97e536f4c63b536b41f0cd605fa\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I received advice from Department of Internal Affairs (DIA) in response to a letter received from Hon Eugenie Sage on 20 October 2022 that covered a range of their party\u2019s concerns related to the water reforms, such as stormwater, co-governance, funding, and privatisation. I can reconcile this with my response to the member\u2019s oral question on 6 December because it was related more specifically to a matter foreshadowed in that letter and then subsequently set out at a later date and tabled in Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 285.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d7988484e4841af8800c5147072b043\u0022\u003ESimon Watts\u003C/span\u003E: Did she send advice received on SOP 285 on 22 November relating to entrenchment, to any other Ministers; if so, who?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022683ad8f4d902415682f3b417f7d70a6a\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: That SOP was tabled by Hon Eugenie Sage in the House. It was a very dynamic debate. I saw that SOP at the same time and then subsequently sought advice on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c11d6e36d7a4395b783fd8aebb93c39\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. That wasn\u2019t the question. The question was about the advice that the Minister received on that SOP and whether or not that advice was sent to other Ministers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223652f07754d24fb587482d037d6f9300\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not quite how I heard it\u2014but Simon Watts, if you could ask the question again, because I thought it was different to that, but away you go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9a732694ffd482fb207527f6e8f1246\u0022\u003ESimon Watts\u003C/span\u003E: Did she send advice received on Supplementary Order Paper 285 on 22 November relating to entrenchment, to any other Ministers; if so, who?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260f86b0d211f4189b4b0ddc528c08455\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, there was a dynamic debate that occurred in the House. I saw that SOP when it was tabled, and then subsequently sought advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1208783f79542789bc41af0884f6b44\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, I\u2019ll give the member an additional question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282511f4a20994e09b3fada43c1aa1867\u0022\u003ESimon Watts\u003C/span\u003E: Did she receive advice on Supplementary Order Paper 285 on 22 November relating to entrenchment, and did she send that advice to any other Ministers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a628b02a9334c5e92d61e8ba0c328bd\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: The advice that I sought was in relation to the discussions in relation to an entrenchment provision at a threshold of 75 percent. In that regard, we did not have a provision within the bill, as introduced, because of decisions that were made at Cabinet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220607526ed71e4c5aba8d59a6e44c7347\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. It was a very reasonable question about advice received and shared on a particular day. The advice that the Minister was referring to occurred months beforehand. How can she get out of addressing the question of, \u201CDid she receive advice on that amendment on that day; and if so, did she share it with anyone?\u201D That wasn\u2019t remotely addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8bb21f100f04c04ac05e89330130660\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Can the member ask the question once more?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c42f42d06e445c998f3682c6d05a8f7\u0022\u003ESimon Watts\u003C/span\u003E: Did she receive advice on SOP 285 on 22 November relating to entrenchment, and did she send that advice to any other Ministers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f24eafc41f54efdb6e2981b552edd3b\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: The advice that I requested and received was in relation to an entrenchment provision of 75 percent. As I say, that is the advice upon which I acted on. The fact that Standing Order 270 enables a lower threshold of entrenchment to be considered was a matter for the Clerk to determine whether or not it was in or out of scope within the context of the debate that we had. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ec90846f71f42819ea552d495acbc75\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Again, that just does not address the very direct and simple question that my colleague, Simon Watts, is asking. It just goes nowhere to address that question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022320c933f478a4208afde1b56e4d1c0f8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, having heard the answer a second time, the answer covered the information that the Minister requested, which was different to the information that the member asked about. So the member can read into that whatever he wishes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6a18869d6bb417ebe4ef87d0d075d6f\u0022\u003ESimon Watts\u003C/span\u003E: Who did she send that advice to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221919304c14ed44e582cbc0b6b9d479e4\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: I acted on the advice\u2014to the extent that I sought advice in relation to the entrenchment provision at a 75 percent threshold, and acted accordingly, and the bill was not introduced with an entrenchment provision. In relation to SOP 285, we have already had the debate\u2014a mistake was made that has been rectified; we have the water service entities law without any entrenchment provision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213fe55b6e95844308a6052b1af79da04\u0022\u003ESimon Watts\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. My question was clearly \u201Cwho\u201D did she send the advice to; I don\u2019t believe that question was answered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0deaa4a26a14b38b8d7e1f853fb7dc5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll ask the member to ask that once more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281c66ba6f98d49dfac29a5725c05e0fa\u0022\u003ESimon Watts\u003C/span\u003E: Who did she send that advice to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233254961f6fb48618261d8c72e724594\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: In relation to the advice I received regarding a 75 percent threshold of entrenchment, there was no need to forward on that advice because we\u2019d already made a decision in relation to that particular matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255f461c0135f41c8a3c3d796a6e383a6\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister for Local Government stand by her statement just now that it was a mistake to support Supplementary Order Paper 285 entrenching three waters provisions or does she stand by her statement to the committee of the whole House at the time, that members had a \u201Cmoral obligation\u201D to support it\u2014what was it, a moral obligation or a mistake?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5b914f82c8447e782b4ac91afabfd5e\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve rectified that matter. It was a mistake; it has been resolved, there is no constitutional crisis and there is no entrenchment provision in the water services entities law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220be7c99752c44098217ab54ce067ba3\u0022\u003ESimon Watts\u003C/span\u003E: Why did she seek advice if she had already made a decision?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228acdaf8c414f4bdaa7e39c489d40d7f9\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: That SOP was introduced by another member in the House; it was a very dynamic debate. It\u2019s not entirely the case that on every SOP\u2014that could be tendered by any member in this House\u2014that it wouldn\u2019t be debated or considered in a very dynamic environment. In regards to SOP 285, an admission has been made that a mistake did occur; we rectified it, the water services entities law does not include an entrenchment provision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022664e7afb5a974eb6959ee9946f8f3d74\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00226dd4bb9f98784a12ab70b6deb9d7a6cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226dd4bb9f98784a12ab70b6deb9d7a6cc\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: Does he think the wages of rural school bus drivers in Aotearoa are fair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u002221b299cd43834764a6c6427c2149b8ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221b299cd43834764a6c6427c2149b8ad\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I appreciate the valuable work that all bus drivers do to ensure children and young people are transported to and from school safely. I note that the Government\u2019s made additional funding available to support better terms and conditions, to attract and retain public transport bus drivers. I\u2019m committed to ensuring that rural communities are not disadvantaged by the additional support provided to public transport bus drivers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f2fd182732d4662af80ae0a26c2bd1e\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: Is he aware of a discrepancy in wages between rural school bus drivers and urban bus drivers, and, if so, what is this discrepancy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e26609a21894e34b4544240ecaa6399\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: As I indicated in my primary answer, yes, I am aware of the current discrepancy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c516964d3b5244018a5141c40cd8c59f\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: Is he confident that no tamariki will be left outside their farm gates at the beginning of term one next year as drivers seek better pay in other parts of the bus industry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e603e28acc648f091d6c68d27b62931\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I am confident that those who\u2019ve contracted to delivering bus services will continue to deliver them. We\u2019ve just recently gone through a contracting round for school bus services, and there was a particular emphasis, during that contracting round, on improving the employment conditions of bus drivers, including on improving their wages. Obviously, the decisions the Government has taken around public transport bus drivers postdate that recent contracting round for school bus services, and therefore we are considering how best to deal with the flow-on consequences of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022929364dae2814763b81a82a394d8e5f2\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: Does the $61 million allocated in Budget 2022 to standardise minimum base-wage rates apply to rural bus drivers, and, if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201803ed41e344ed4abd3ac5ca728694b\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: No, because they are funded through two entirely different funding sources.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206c1af7d239f4ac5a3347d41902777f1\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Ministry of Education not set a wage floor or base rate for its school transport services?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022562048117e604386a69438a136eff296\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: One of the conditions in the contract is around making sure that bus drivers are appropriately treated. It doesn\u2019t specifically have a wage floor, but it does have provisions within the contract\u2014and it was used as one of the criteria in determining who was allocated contracts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b9dd8071f474acc893a159e4d04c917\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: How will he ensure rural school bus drivers are paid fair wages without having to wait until fair pay agreements have come into force?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f6776bd6dd84a46bda2e36919fb52ac\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: As I indicated, one of the things that the Government is considering at the moment is the implication of the recent moves to increase public transport bus driver wages\u2014we\u2019re considering the flow-on implications of that to school bus drivers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228b8ad6c9ff9441398fde0ddcec09c823\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228277a1b1cc8843d4ba3ffb4f7974eba9\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u002272709e6844324a4284f8254bfbca0ebd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272709e6844324a4284f8254bfbca0ebd\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the sitting of the House today be extended into the morning of Wednesday, 14 December for the third reading of the Oranga Tamariki Amendment Bill; the first readings and referral to select committee of the Water Services Legislation Bill, the Water Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Protection Bill, the Human Rights (Incitement on Ground of Religious Belief) Amendment Bill, the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Community Participation) Amendment Bill, and the Therapeutic Products Bill; and the third reading of the Natural Hazards Insurance Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002243c6aff0e03f49ff8206ab7ca765c05f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 76\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ddeab356916248f9b348eb5c31a32a90\u0022\u003ENg\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua Claims Settlement Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f58999aadfda481d9e69a809ee305834\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u002291fe80c4313c422a900a2612a356026b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291fe80c4313c422a900a2612a356026b\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua Claims Settlement Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236ea047ab62d4c71883470d4c049ea9d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022427c5b355d4d4ebbbed3ffefc06bbc10\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua Claims Settlement Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EAt this point, I would ordinarily have welcomed members of Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua to the House. They are on their way. They travelled from T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua right through Wairarapa down to Wellington today by steam train, and, would you believe it, the steam train was late, so it took a while to arrive at Te Whanga-nui-a-Tara, and then their buses were waylaid by some activity out the front of Parliament by some people who are opposed to blood transfusions from people whose blood hasn\u2019t been cleared of vaccinations. So they are making their way to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EBut, nevertheless, it\u2019s an honour to be able to lead the third reading of this bill to the House. I want to be very clear, too, because this has been a troubled process, certainly in the last five years or so, and I\u2019ll come back to that shortly, but I want to say that the message from Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa, and, indeed, some fellow iwi across the motu, has been very clear: that it is time, Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu says, to move forward. Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu want to take back control of their destiny. The Crown is determined to be a better partner, to be a respectful Treaty partner. As I said, I\u2019ll come back to some of the issues that have been prevalent in the last few years, but I ask that while we debate this bill, we don\u2019t lose sight of those very important objectives of Treaty redress, which is the ability for iwi to take back control and determine their future and for the Crown to truly honour its obligations under Te Tiriti.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe Treaty process is not a perfect one, and it requires compromise. It often requires painful decisions and tough conversations. It does not and it cannot fully address the pain and suffering that iwi across the country have had to endure at the hands of the Crown. However, the agreements reached, once they are reached, are a step in the right direction. They provide valuable resources, and we have seen over the years how iwi have been able to grow and support their people through the benefits of Treaty redress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu negotiators in this case have done an outstanding job at holding the Crown to account and negotiating a package for their people. I\u2019d like to acknowledge their hard work and to recognise the difficult position they are put in. Navigating Crown policy while considering the expectations of their people and the weight of the mamae passed down for generations\u2014it\u2019s an extraordinarily difficult balancing act. The Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu negotiators and advisers of past and present have done an exceptional job, and in this respect I acknowledge the Hon Ron Mark, Ian Perry, Robin Potangaroa, Hayden Hape, Haami Te Whaiti, Marama Tuuta, and Rawiri Smith. Nei r\u0101 te mihi ki a koutou. I know you have high ambitions for your people, and the job has only just begun. But I hope they are able to take a moment to appreciate the fruits of their labour and, eventually, to enjoy a well-earned rest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to also acknowledge the work of Lee Grey, Wi Tako Love, Andrew Sharrock, Mike Colson, Jennifer Braithwaite, and Monique van Alphen Fyfe. I also mihi to the settlement trust trustees of past and present, who have also been putting in the hard work to get their people to this day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI want to take a moment to talk about the challenges of the last few years. Shortly after the settlement trust reached settlement, there was a remedies application by a group, the Wairarapa Moana ki Pou\u0101kani Incorporation, for resumption of land, the Pou\u0101kani land. That\u2019s the land that\u2019s in Waikato. Part of the history was that the Crown, having pushed Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu off its land and undermined its cultural rights in respect of Lake Wairarapa and Lake Onoke, then having, frankly, nicked land off Raukawa and T\u016Bwharetoa, gifted that land to Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu in some sort of compensation, then later, in the 1940s, took a chunk of that land back under the Public Works Act to build the Maraetai hydro power station. The remedies application was to get back the land that the Crown had seized under the Public Works Act and hand it back to at least somebody representing Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe tribunal in March 2020 made some preliminary findings, and those preliminary findings included that it would order resumption\u2014it would order the resumption of the Pou\u0101kani land claimed and that it would make sure that Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu in that respect was properly compensated for what had happened. But it is interesting to note these comments that the tribunal made in its extensive preliminary determination in March 2020, specifically in relation to one of the then claimants for those remedies, and that was the incorporation, the Wairarapa Moana ki Pou\u0101kani Incorporation\u2014bearing in mind that by this time the settlement trust had also replicated the claim for remedies in order to preserve its position. But in relation to the question of who should receive any land ordered back to Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu, the tribunal said this: \u201CWe do not consider we should recommend the return to them\u201D\u2014that is, the Wairarapa Moana Ki Pou\u0101kani Incorporation\u2014\u201Cof the 787 acres, however, because the value of that land and the assets located there is not proportionate to the prejudice they suffered as shareholders in 1949.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe tribunal went on to say that \u201CEven if we considered that the prejudice that the shareholders suffered from the compulsory acquisition alone might justify the return of part of the land to them, we do not favour the exercise of our discretion in that way.\u201D The tribunal goes on to talk about learning about the shareholders of Wairarapa Moana ki Pou\u0101kani Incorporation and that there was a variety of size of shareholders but that, in any event, they weren\u2019t representative. The tribunal said, for the reasons they\u2019ve outlined, \u201CWe are satisfied that the return of land to the incorporation would not be a just outcome.\u201D and went on to say, \u201CThe recipient entity of the lands they do award must be demonstrably representative of and exist for the benefit of those who suffered prejudice in respect of the well-founded claims. The incorporation is not that kind of recipient.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIt is very clear that the tribunal, when it made its extensive determination ruling, had no intention of returning the land to the incorporation. Nevertheless, the tribunal\u2019s decision was the subject of an appeal, or at least a judicial review to the High Court. The High Court focused on a question of mana whenua and whether the lack of it was a disqualifying factor for the order of resumption. The High Court ruled in favour of the Crown and Mercury Energy and Raukawa and a number of others. That decision was then appealed not to the Court of Appeal, as it ordinarily would\u2019ve been, but to the Supreme Court, and last week the Supreme Court made a decision. Interestingly, the Supreme Court said its decision would not affect the bill before the House, although that is somewhat inconsistent with later statements in the Supreme Court decision. The Supreme Court took a different view on mana whenua and also laid out its expectation about how the tribunal would consider the issue of mana whenua in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EAgainst that, I as Minister have made a judgment about proceeding with the bill, and the reason I\u2019ve made that judgment is because I, as Minister representing the Crown, have to consider a whole variety of interests, not just the interests of the incorporation, who took the appeal and about whom the tribunal said they would not order resumption, but the interests of Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu, the only mandated entity for Wairarapa, who\u2019ve gone out to their people, sought their support, had a vote, had not just one ratification vote on settlement but two, after they renegotiated their settlement, had it modified\u2014that is to say, improved\u2014and won the support to proceed. It was Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua Settlement Trust who has said, \u201CWe want to proceed because we want to face the future with certainty and with confidence, and we\u2019re confident that we can restore our relationship with the Crown.\u201D Raukawa says, \u201CWe do not want to be dragged into years and years of litigation defending our mana whenua rights anymore.\u201D, and Ng\u0101ti T\u016Bwharetoa supports the continuation of the legislation as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe bill contains a variety of redress and compensation as well\u2014$115 million of compensation along cultural revitalisation as well. The time has come to bring the benefits of comprehensive Treaty of Waitangi settlement redress to all of Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu. On that basis, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002277f1a4b5fd3848e0a4b27f4d2aa10033\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277f1a4b5fd3848e0a4b27f4d2aa10033\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3193e56344940e38a37fd3958be86ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3193e56344940e38a37fd3958be86ba\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare hurinoa i te Whare nei e mihi atu ki a koutou katoa. T\u0113nei te mihi, nau mai haere mai te iwi o Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki-nui-a-rua. N\u014D reira, mauria mai \u014D whakaako ki te kaupapa i huihui \u0101-t\u0101kata, e mihi atu ki a koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E[Greetings, Madam Speaker, and greetings to everyone in the House. Greetings and welcome to Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-rua. And so, bring your lessons to this issue in person. Greetings to you all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThank you, Madam Speaker, and, to all those who are watching, welcome. It is my role today as the National Party spokesperson on Treaty negotiations to rise and to take this call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThe Kahungunu hap\u016B and wh\u0101nau of Wairarapa and T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua have been waiting 180 years for justice, rising from the Crown\u2019s breaches of Te Tiriti o Waitangi\u2014the Treaty of Waitangi. Those breaches included the Crown taking tens of thousands of acres of their whenua. Later, their t\u012Bpuna were forced to give up tuku whenua leasehold arrangements with P\u0101keh\u0101 settlers and, instead, sell the land. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EBy 1854, the Crown had taken 1.5 million acres in exchange for very small sums. By 1900, 90 percent of their land within the Wairarapa and T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua was gone. In the 20th century, purchasing for public works took much of what remained, leaving only 1.5 percent, or 35,000 acres, of the original whenua in their hands. They were rendered virtually landless, which is the position they are in now, and which this bill seeks to address. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThe treatment of Wairarapa Moana is especially distressing\u2014a living taonga treasured by their t\u012Bpuna for its abundant supply of food and other customary resources traditionally harvested and traded for the benefit of people from nearby and from afar. Big challenges arose between the settlers and those in Wairarapa Moana, and after 30 years of fighting to protect Wairarapa Moana, their t\u012Bpuna relented and gifted it to the Crown in the spirit of rangatira ki te rangatira. This tuku rangatira was intended to end the discord between M\u0101ori, and the Crown and Europeans. The Crown was supposed to protect their interests in the lake and set aside ample reserves to ensure ongoing access to the lake as a source of food and other traditional reserves. However, it did not do so. After 20 years, the Crown gave them land at Pou\u0101kani, which was far from the Wairarapa, inaccessible by road or rail, and within another iwi\u2019s rohe, or area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThose breaches have been recognised by the Crown as having created real and lasting prejudice, undermining their economic, social, and cultural wellbeing. Through this settlement, the Crown and the trust endeavour to recognise those wrongs. It cannot right all of them, but it intends to try to put right some of those wrongs. Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu has written to members of the House, asking that this process is not prolonged and the prejudice is not continued, and saying that settling now is in the best interests of Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua as a whole, in the best interests of hap\u016B and wh\u0101nau to provide for their cultural, social, and economic welfare, and in the best interests of protecting the welfare of the environment of the rohe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThis has been 180 years in coming. In the most recent times, it represents 34 years of hard work, which has seen many kaum\u0101tua pass on before reaching this settlement today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ENg\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua have advised that this ushers in a new dawn, one that involves a productive working relationship with the Crown, offering cultural redress and financial and commercial redress, as well as a Crown apology. They say that they welcome this redress for their people, just as they welcome a strengthened Te Tiriti relationship with the Crown, local government, and many other agencies that will come with it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EA key element is the ability to purchase the Wairio and Rangedale stations and to return that land to Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu. These lands are culturally significant, and having rangatiratanga over their whenua will allow the aspirations of the t\u012Bpuna to at last be fulfilled. It also includes over 9,000 hectares of culturally significant lands being returned as cultural redress. Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua are particularly looking forward to the sense of pride that will come with having that whenua returned to them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EImportantly, there will be a Crown apology for breaches and the struggles of their ancestors. This has yet to be delivered due to COVID-19 restrictions, but it will take place in the future when it can be done kanohi ki te kanohi, or face to face, to the hap\u016B and wh\u0101nau. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThis bill has raised some significant challenges, and, in fact, the Supreme Court delivered a ruling only last week. As the Minister has said, the majority of the Supreme Court said that the decision of the court did not affect the Treaty bill currently before the House, and that was on the basis that the role of the courts was only to look at the legislation that exists at the time of the decision, not the legislation that may exist in the future, even if it\u2019s the week following the release of that decision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThis has been something we have very, very carefully considered, because the Wairarapa Moana Inc. has had application for this on foot for some time before the Waitangi Tribunal, which had been appealed by a number of parties to the High Court, and then further to the Supreme Court. The primary issue that the Supreme Court dealt with was the definition of mana whenua, and mana whenua relates to lands that are not traditionally in the rohe of the iwi. But the Supreme Court also went a little bit further than the issues that were on appeal to it and that opened the door, potentially, for a fresh application to be made by Wairarapa Moana Inc. in the Waitangi Tribunal, although the Supreme Court recognised that the Waitangi Tribunal would have to change its original determination on the appropriate recipient if a resumption order were made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThis has been something we have considered very, very carefully. We recognise the mamae that this does bring to Wairarapa Moana Inc. and those it represents, and it is something that we haven\u2019t taken lightly. We have looked very carefully at Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu and the representatives of Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua and their wish to bring these proceedings to an end and to have a final Treaty settlement that enables them to provide for their tamariki and create a new dawn for their people. I do note that the point was made that there is Haronga litigation concerning the resumption applications of the Mangatu blocks in Muriwhenua, which began in the High Court in 2009, and since that date, the matter has been heard in the Supreme Court in 2011, it went back to the Waitangi Tribunal, it was heard again in the High Court and the Court of Appeal in 2014 and 2016, it went back to the Waitangi Tribunal for further decisions following those judgments, and I understand it is working its way through the courts again. So it will be a long time before there\u2019s a final decision on that issue, and certainly one of the concerns that has been raised is the very likely prospect of ongoing litigation, with no certainty about when that litigation would come to completion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThe National Party is very keen for Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua to be able, after 180 years and 34 years in this particular journey, to get to this settlement point and be able to come to a point of completion so that they can look into that new dawn that provides for them and their people. Importantly, these settlements are ultimately not just about what has happened in the past and the present, but it\u2019s about the aspirations and the mana and the success of Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua now and into the future, and that is something that we very much wish to support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EI should also touch on one other point, which has been something we also have very carefully considered, and that is the claimant definition of Ng\u0101ti H\u0101mua and Ng\u0101ti Te Rangiwhaka-ewa. In this settlement, there has been an inability to get agreements between Rangit\u0101ne and Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu over the claimant definition, and the Crown has come to the final position that it\u2019s not its role to determine whakapapa on behalf of iwi. As a result, the claimant definition for the settlement legislation for both Rangit\u0101ne o T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua and Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua includes both hap\u016B in their claimant definitions, because that is what both Rangit\u0101ne and Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu say is correct. So that is the way that this has been addressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EIn the limited time available to me, I say that I look forward to the completion of this settlement and the new future this brings for all of Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua, and I trust that the internal challenges will be able to be resolved so that all can benefit from this bill now and into the future. Thank you, Madam Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022 data-id=\u002240c51f78d4884e439c379cd328606264\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240c51f78d4884e439c379cd328606264\u0022\u003ET\u0100MATI COFFEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EKaranga, karanga ki a Ranginui e t\u016B iho nei\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EKaranga, karanga ki a Papat\u016B\u0101nuku e takoto nei\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EHuakina atu r\u0101 te tatau o te whare k\u014Drero\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EUhia te k\u014Drero\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EUhia te whakaaro\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EUhia ki te ao m\u0101rama\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EE rongo, whakairia ki runga\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EHaumi e, hui e, taiki e.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EE te M\u0101ngai o t\u0113nei Whare, he hononga tata i waenga i a m\u0101tou o Te Arawa, ki a koutou, ki a r\u0101tou o Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa. Ko P\u016Bhaorangi te tangata kua puta ko Ohomairangi, ko Muturangi, ko Taunga, ko Atua Matua, ko Houmaitawhiti, ko Tama te Kapua, ko Kahu-mata-momoe, ko Tawaki-moe-tahanga, ko Uenuku-mai-rarotonga, \u0101, ko Rangitihi. Ka moe a Rangitihi ki a Papawharanui, ka puta ko T\u016Bhourangi. Ka moe a T\u016Bhourangi ki a Rongomai-papa, ka puta ko Uenukuk\u014Dpako, anei a Uenukuk\u014Dpaka e mihi atu nei ki a koutou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EKo Rongomai-papa te tam\u0101hine o Rongomaiwahine, te wahine tapairu o Te Tai R\u0101whiti me t\u014Dna p\u0101p\u0101, a Kahungunu, n\u014D reira ki a koutou o Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu, anei a Te Arawa e mihi atu nei ki a koutou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E[Call, summon universal space\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003ECall and summon solid matter\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EOpen the doors of the house of dialogue \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003ELay out the dialogue\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003ELay out the thought\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003ELay out to gain enlightenment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003ERongo uplift these words \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EGather \u2026 affirm!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003ETo the Speaker of the House, there is a strong link between Te Arawa and those of Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa. From P\u016Bhaorangi came Ohomairangi, Muturangi, Taunga, Atua Matua, Houmaitawhiti, Tama te Kapua, Kahu-mata-momoe, Tawaki-moe-tahanga, Uenuku-mai-rarotonga, and Rangitihi. Rangitihi married Papawharanui, and produced T\u016Bhourangi. T\u016Bhourangi married Rongomai-papa, and produced Uenukuk\u014Dpako. As a descendant of Uenukuk\u014Dpaka, I acknowledge you all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003ERongomai-papa was the daughter of the East Coast chieftainess Rongomaiwahine and her husband Kahungunu, so therefore, Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu, here stands Te Arawa to greet you.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003ECan I start by acknowledging my recent visit to Hurunui-\u014D-Rangi in the Wairarapa. My auntie died, and we made the trip down to the marae there; we got to see the beautiful papa k\u0101inga kei te kite i a koe Marama, t\u0113nei te mihi nui ki a koe me t\u014D m\u0101m\u0101. [village and we saw you, Marama. Warm greetings to you and your mother.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EWe got to meet, we got to hang out, and we got to hear a little bit about the k\u014Drero that\u2019s gone on around there. It\u2019s nothing different to what we heard during the submissions process on the select committee. There was a lot of hurt that came through in the select committee process, and I want to acknowledge that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EThis isn\u2019t a new battle; in fact, the iwi had been battling this for a long time. The journey to settlement dates back decades. The first historical Treaty claim, lodged in 1989; years later in 2004 and 2005, the claims were presented to the Waitangi Tribunal; and in 2010, the report released at Te Ore Ore marae in Masterton concluded that, overwhelmingly, they had claims that were very well founded. The historical claims date back to the 19th century. The mamae is still felt over centuries, impacting wh\u0101nau continually today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EWhile this settlement does not right the wrongs of the past, it ushers in, as my previous colleague said, a new dawn; one that involves a productive working relationship with the Crown. The redress is of importance to the iwi and to the settlement trust. The acquisition of Wairio Station and Rangedale Station as part as part of the settlement\u2014they have ownership that is going to be reinstated on their whenua, around Wairarapa Moana, which will allow the aspirations of the t\u012Bpuna to be fulfilled in a meaningful way. Included in that settlement is 9,000 hectares of culturally significant land, and Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua is looking forward to an enhanced sense of pride that comes with such important whenua being returned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EI mentioned in the second reading speech in the House here on this particular bill one of the submissions that really struck to my heart. We had a really lengthy day of submission hearings, covering all manner of issues, but I found this submission, and I want to attribute it to Paul Te Huki, who actually got up and sat there, he brought photos, and he said, \u201CI make this submission on behalf of My father Renata Paora Tuhokairangi, My older Twin brothers Raymond John Te Huki and Stephen Douglas Te Huki, My Uncle Joe Todd and Aunty Pauline Todd, Uncle Stephen Todd, Aunty Maise Harrison, Aunty Deli Wilson, Aunty Moana Te Huki, Aunty Bobby and Kani Reiri, Aunty Hine and Mike Nikora who have all passed during this [very] long journey.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EHe went on in his submission to say, \u201CThis was my immediate family who grew up on or around Whiti Te Ra marae in T\u0101maki-nui-a-Rua since the early 1940\u2019s, and\u201D\u2014in his words\u2014\u201Cnow it is up to my generation to make it happen which I find is a heavy burden to carry. \u2026 I ask that on behalf of my father who passed away on the 14th June [this year] at the [grand] age of 84 who signed an agreement with Minister Finlayson and then again with Minister Little who after signing sat down and had a meal to celebrate and his world meant the deal is done.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EHis recommendation to us, the committee, was to honour the agreements that his father had signed, to pass their settlement through Parliament ASAP before any more wh\u0101nau pass, to let them keep their mana intact and \u201Cstop making us beg for our rightful compensation for the Crowns wrong doing\u201D, and to \u201CRegain the Crowns Mana by Honouring the agreements my Dad signed.\u201D I want to thank Paul for his contribution to the committee and to everybody else that put forward their submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EI want to also take the opportunity to read a couple of the paragraphs of the apology. The apology is a big part of any Treaty settlement, and usually what iwi have to do is wait until we travel to the marae to hear a bit of that apology. But I want to read it today. I think that it is especially pertinent, and I acknowledge the long wait that their iwi have had to get to this point right now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EThe first paragraph of the apology, in English, goes like this: \u201CThe Crown pays tribute to the struggles of Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua and your ancestors in pursuit of justice for the Crown\u2019s wrongs and especially to those [of you] who have not survived to see this settlement completed. To you, the people of Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua, to your t\u012Bpuna and [to] your mokopuna, the Crown offers this apology.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u201CThe Crown unreservedly apologises for not honouring its obligations to respect te tino rangatiratanga o Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua through repeated breaches of te Tiriti o Waitangi/the Treaty of Waitangi and its principles. The Crown profoundly regrets the damage and hurt [that] these breaches have caused to the hap\u016B and wh\u0101nau of Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u201CThe Crown is deeply sorry that it began its relationship with Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua in 1845 by prejudging their guilt in a dispute with settlers and depriving Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua of tens of thousands of acres by forcing them to cede this land with threats of armed violence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u201CThe Crown profoundly regrets that it threatened to end P\u0101keh\u0101 settlement in Wairarapa and T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua unless your t\u012Bpuna sold their land to the Crown, giving up the pastoral leases they had negotiated with P\u0101keh\u0101 which had provided [the iwi]\u201D\u2014[Turns page]\u2014the rest is in the bill. I thought it was on the other side.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003ELook, I just want to say, it speaks to the position that we have as members of Parliament, here in 2022, that we have to stand here, on behalf of the Crown, apologising for injustices that were done a long time ago, but where the hurt still remains.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EI stand here today, as the chair of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, as a member of the New Zealand Labour Party, and as a member of the Labour M\u0101ori caucus, acknowledging the hurt and the pain that the Crown have caused to your iwi for a very long time. I wish you the best. I wish you all the best as you track through what the future looks like, because at some point, we have to move past this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EToday, what we\u2019re doing is we\u2019re giving that opportunity to get this out of the parliamentary system so that we can put the money in your bank and so that you can go on to determine what the oranga for your iwi looks like. If that looks like some kind of hauora or health centre in Masterton, if it looks like something else for your tamariki, mokopuna kei te heke mai [for your children and grandchildren to come], then kei a koutou te tikanga\u2014that\u2019s yours to decide. We in this House stand proudly next to you on the journey, we acknowledge the pain and the hurt from the past, but we are also aspirational and hopeful in our hearts that your future is bright and that you go on to make some really good decisions on behalf of your children, your mokopuna, and your mokomoko that are still to come, and you place them in the front and the centre when you go to make decisions after what happens here today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira, ki a koutou e te whanaunga a te wh\u0101nau wh\u0101nui o Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki-nui-a-rua, nei r\u0101 te mihi ki a koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E[So, to the relatives of the wider family of Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-rua, greetings, greetings to you all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u00228c19b134030345f9a6dcde595716a5c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c19b134030345f9a6dcde595716a5c7\u0022\u003EDr SHANE RETI (National):\u003C/span\u003E E rau rangatira m\u0101 e ng\u0101 iwi kia ora mai t\u0101tou. Ko t\u0113nei te mihi e tuku ana ki a koutou. Nau mai, haere mai ki t\u0113nei Whare, te Whare P\u0101remata m\u014D t\u0113nei mahi hirahira, n\u014D reira kia ora mai t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E[To all the chiefly authorities and the tribes, greetings one and all. This is my acknowledgment to you. Welcome to the House of Parliament for this important work, therefore be well one and all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003ENational will be supporting this bill at its third and final reading, the third reading of the Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu settlement bill known as the Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua Claims Settlement Bill. This bill has taken a long time to reach this point, and I want to thank the claimants, the negotiators, the Office of Treaty Settlements, and the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee for their work. This bill has had a complicated path, one that over the past week became more complicated with various announcements. The Government has a majority and has the ability to vote out other views, regardless of what we may think, and the Government\u2019s vote of support here today, while welcome, is clearly with the consent of their Labour M\u0101ori caucus. We too have sought a collective view from our caucus, from the National Party caucus, and presented to them a balance of views\u2014the best balance that we possibly could.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EWe note that the passage of this bill will extinguish the claims of Wairarapa Moana. We have a great sadness with that. And our team had a range of views on this very issue. We note our colleagues\u2019 proposal for a Supplementary Order Paper that would allow further debate of the Wai 85 Wairarapa Moana claim and explore its extraction and putting aside. This is not possible, with the committee of the whole House not sitting. What may have happened may have been that we would have had a more thorough debate and, possibly, we would have reached a conclusion, but that is now past this point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003ENational is supporting this bill, which we believe, on balance, provides a pathway forward. On balance was a balance of many things\u2014that initially Wairarapa Moana was determined not to be the correct claim holder; that Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu removed the contested Pou\u0101kani claim from its settlement to facilitate progress; that in this format the settlement is supported by local iwi Ng\u0101ti Raukawa and Ng\u0101ti T\u016Bwharetoa. The recent court case raised issues that could change all of these stated positions. It was determined that it was not moot that Wairarapa Moana was not an appropriate claim holder. It was determined that the description of mana whenua was not nuanced enough and that Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu may further explore mana whenua status over the claim. If these were to be pursued, support from Ng\u0101ti Raukawa and Ng\u0101ti T\u016Bwharetoa could also be compromised. The pathway to resolution would seem to be back to the Waitangi Tribunal, a pathway that would likely take many years and further hold back this settlement. These are some of the many things that National has spent much time on, and much anguish and much deliberation, and we have done our very best to balance these matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EIt is not as if recent decisions have made determinative judgments and recommended an appropriate claim holder or recommended who might have mana whenua status. What has been determined, then, is what things are not and not what they may be, and, in our view, further deliberation seems to point to a prolonged return to the Waitangi Tribunal. Ng\u0101ti Raukawa stated to us, \u201CWe\u2019re obviously disappointed that the Supreme Court decision hasn\u2019t brought any finality to this issue. Instead, it has breathed life back into it without significantly changing the position of the parties at all.\u201D On balance, we believe that a return to the Waitangi Tribunal would be unnecessarily and unreasonably onerous. We understand that there are harms with either path that we take today, and we have done our very best to weigh these up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EWe support the Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu settlement bill. We note Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu writing to us, \u201CIf this bill was not to proceed, we would be irretrievably prejudiced and consigned to a deeply uncertain future, if the Crown now does not pass our settlement legislation. You would be putting us in the worst possible position\u2014no settlement and no viable litigation option. You would have made us give up that litigation option for a promised settlement that you then did not give us. That would perpetuate yet further Te Tiriti breaches on Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua, compounding the historic breaches from which we already suffer.\u201D We support wholly the integrity of Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu\u2014that they too have balanced up many things to be here today, and that, going forward as a settled iwi, they will continue to seek a path forward that best accommodates as many of these competing interests as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, we are privileged here today to advance the legislative process that enables a settlement, an enablement that apologises, an enablement that acknowledges, an enablement that advances the hopes and aspirations of Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu, and the National Party wishes them well. Kia ora mai t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8938311aff5438e9da97ae524b97626\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8938311aff5438e9da97ae524b97626\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare. Ng\u0101 mihi nui ki a koutou katoa, ng\u0101 uri o Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa. Ng\u0101 mihi mahana ki a koutou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E[Greetings to you all, to the descendants of Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa. Warm greetings to you all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI rise to speak in support of this settlement and of this legislation, but also, as the deputy chair of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, to report back to this House on the extra work that the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee undertook to make sure that we were finding the right balance in reaching a supportive position of this legislation and taking into account the 173 submissions that the committee received on this bill since May this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EFirst, I want to congratulate the members of the settlement trust who have represented their claims with a great deal of dignity and ambition for their people, and to thank everyone here who has come to listen to the debate today and to support those members who have done this bravely and should be proud of the result that we will celebrate later this evening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EFirst, let me just canvass the hara that has occurred that the Crown has come to the table to address with the settlement trust: the forced cession of tens of thousands of acres of land at Maungaroa through threats of armed violence; the Crown\u2019s failure to obtain the consent of key rights-holders when purchasing land in the Wairarapa and T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua regions; and the purchase of more than half of Wairarapa and T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua, which virtually destroyed what was the base of Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu in that area. But not only that, it has considered, in this bill, the failure to address and provide for many of the education, health, and economic benefits which Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu had been led to expect as true payment for their land, and the failure to give suitable lakeside reserves in exchange for the tuku rangatira of Wairarapa Moana in 1896. Those are grave breaches of the expectations of the iwi and of Te Tiriti o Waitangi, and it\u2019s right that in this Treaty settlement process the Crown has come to understand the cost to the iwi of that, and what it means to right this in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ETreaty settlement bills are important because they don\u2019t just go to the issues of land, the issue of a quantum of the settlement, they also go to the future relationships. Things in this bill, like the taonga t\u016Bturu protocols, for example, are important to enact today because they create a package of rights for the iwi to claim k\u014D, and things which are discovered in land, that are taonga that should be protected by the iwi. It\u2019s important that that set of protocols, which is given effect in this Treaty settlement bill and is often not discussed in the Treaty settlement process, is put in place today so that that cultural, that artistic, history is able to be celebrated from now, and that it\u2019s not put off. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI also want to touch on the work that the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee did to understand the purpose of what was joint redress for Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa and Rangit\u0101ne in Te Rohe o Rongokako Joint Redress Bill. That was a separate bill that this Parliament has been considering, and it gives effect to specific cultural redress shared by Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua and Rangit\u0101ne o Wairarapa and Rangit\u0101ne o Tamaki nui-\u0101-Rua, and it\u2019s provided in specific deeds of settlement. That was considered separately by this House because the nature of that joint settlement is that there does need to be agreement around that, and that all through that process the committee heard from the two groups about the aspirations to work together. We worked through areas which were still under discussion, but I absolutely have faith that today and in the coming years the leadership of both iwi will be able to come together on that joint settlement redress that has an impact also on this settlement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ENow, Madam Speaker, if you\u2019ll let me talk to the two claims, Wai 85 and Wai 429, which the committee looked into really carefully. We sought further advice from our officials, we sought further comment from the parties involved, and we did really listen carefully to the oral submissions and carefully consider the written submissions of those parties. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWai 85 and Wai 429 claims are within the Waitangi Tribunal. Wai 85 is the claim about Pou\u0101kani in Southern Waikato, and it was brought on behalf of the Wairarapa Moana Incorporation. Wai 429 involves Ng\u0101umu Crown Forest land in Southern Wairarapa, sought on behalf of Ng\u0101i T\u016Bmapuhia-\u0101-Rangi, and both claims were at issue right the way through the select committee\u2019s process and have been before the courts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI raise these because I want to be really clear that the committee\u2019s extra work in these areas was about not only really understanding any rights which might be affected by this bill but also about providing an opportunity for committee members to come to a degree of consensus and a degree of shared understanding about what this legislation would have an impact on for that discussion of what rights might exist, and it was important for us to be able to go through that process. And I think that my colleagues around the committee did a very careful job at examining on behalf of the House what those rights were, and we came to a view\u2014which is within the select committee report\u2014that the most important thing for us was for the Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations to be very, very clear with Parliament about the reasons that he and his Cabinet colleagues might make a call to proceed with this sort of settlement. And that is what he has done in no uncertain terms today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo let me take you through those reasons that we heard. The Minister said today that he made that call, and the understanding of the select committee was that one of the reasons it was done was that the settlement trust made an informed decision to proceed to settlement and continued to support this settlement legislation being introduced before the hearing, and that a clear majority of the Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu claimant community who engaged in the vote on the enhanced settlement package voted in support of proceeding to settlement. Those are important considerations when we consider those who would lose out of Parliament delaying a decision around this settlement bill. Further to the point of delay, there has already been a three year delay since progress with the deed of settlement was deferred to allow the Wai 85 and Wai 429 claims to be heard by the tribunal. This was also really important to the committee when we consider both what is lost in the return of the cultural assets and in the value of the commercial redress. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EParticularly important to me and one that I had plenty of questions for submitters and counsel on was the tribunal\u2019s preliminary determination that it should not recommend the return of the land to the two claimants\u2014Wai 85 and Wai 429 claimants. Instead it preferred an iwi representative group, and further to that, there was no challenge seeking a judicial review of that determination, and the High Court expressly noted the continued relevance of the tribunal\u2019s preliminary determinations on both of those claims. My point there is to bring the House\u2019s attention to when we think of how these claims might progress in the courts in future and who might lose and who might gain from that. The tribunal already made determinations which found that it was very unlikely that resumption of the value of the assets would be returned to that one particular incorporation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI think, as well, it\u2019s useful for the House to have on record some of the committee\u2019s discussions around the process of settlement for the Crown. The Crown here needed to balance a range of often competing interests, including the prejudice that further delay would cause to the interests of the broader iwi who support the settlements, and Rangit\u0101ne and others such as Raukawa who are affected by the ongoing litigation. And I come back to the comments of Shane Reti at the last reading of the joint redress bill, which I very much support, that we are looking to reach a position where we can enjoy the peace and prosperity for this iwi that settlement would bring. I think it\u2019s really important for the Crown here to be able to step back at this point, to hand over this settlement and this process to the people who it is for. And I thank them for their leadership. And that\u2019s why I support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022 data-id=\u0022238c5d49108a418c924f04feea94d305\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022238c5d49108a418c924f04feea94d305\u0022\u003EDr ELIZABETH KEREKERE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare. T\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 koutou i raro i te mana o Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki-nui-a-rua, ng\u0101 hap\u016B, ng\u0101 wh\u0101nau, te iwi wh\u0101nui hei h\u0101pai i t\u0113nei kaupapa. K\u0101ore e kore, he huarahi roa, he huarahi uaua t\u0113nei, engari kua ea, kua tae te w\u0101 hei whakat\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003E[Greetings to you all under the authority of Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-rua, the subtribes, the families and the wider tribe who support this issue. Undoubtedly, this has been a long and difficult road, but you have succeeded, and the time has come to take some rest.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EI rise on behalf of the Green Party to support the Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua Claims Settlement Bill in its third and final reading. It gives effect to the final settlement of the historical Treaty of Waitangi claims between Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua and the Crown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EWe heard how the succession of Crown actions over nearly 180 years have left them virtually landless and impacted on every aspect of their lives and development ever since. A fulsome apology from the Crown is the absolute minimum that should be expected for everything it has done and failed to do. Unfortunately, the Crown has not stopped causing harm, and it has meant that Kahungunu has also been subject to dealing with claims within its claim.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003ENow, the Greens\u2014we have struggled with how to position ourselves here. We are always here to stand on behalf of the most marginalised in our society amongst our people. And while we have supported the need for Kahungunu to settle, we have also spoken to the issues raised by Rangit\u0101ne T\u016B Mai R\u0101, Wairarapa Moana ki Pou\u0101kani, Ng\u0101i T\u016Bm\u0101puhi-a-rangi. I know that has not made us popular in some circumstances, and if people still want to have hui and discuss those things that have been said, I am absolutely up for that, but kei te mamae m\u0101tou m\u014D ng\u0101 hohounga i whati i t\u0113nei mahi [we are hurting because of the broken connections caused by this process]. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EThe Crown has long maintained that Wai 85 had no legal pathway for its claim\u2014and that\u2019s the claim taken by Wairarapa Moana ki Pou\u0101kani. However, the Waitangi Tribunal and now the Supreme Court has begged to differ. In a different world, the Crown perhaps could have taken that section in much the same way as the Te Rohe o Rongokako Joint Redress Bill was done: to have all those parties together, including Ng\u0101ti Raukawa, and just sort that out in a way that did not affect or did not in any way slow down the passage of this bill. They could have allowed that due process and natural justice and the time required to do it properly without affecting the settlement of this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EIn that world, though, that did not happen. In this world, the Minister and the Crown have decided to extinguish the rights of Wairarapa Moana Pou\u0101kani. Not only that, it appears that he has made this bill contingent on it\u2014so that was never an option. There is such a clear conflict of interest: moving the bill forward in this way saves the Crown millions and millions of dollars. That is really worrying\u2014worrying implications for some constitutional arrangements for every other hap\u016B and iwi who has yet to settle. But that is why the Greens have abstained on this bill so far: in response to the behaviour\u2014the astounding and dangerous behaviour\u2014of the Crown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003ESo having said all of that, we are supporting this bill today because this is Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua\u2019s day. Finally, after all of this time, after over 180 years, 33 years since the first historical Treaty claim was lodged\u2014so much work; so many people lost\u2014the claim is settled. In a few short speeches, this bill will be done. The Greens have always said that we support Kahungunu settling, along with the appropriate cultural, financial, and commercial redress that is meant to come with it to enable the uri of Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua to start rebuilding and creating a better future for them and their mokopuna. And this is not to say that this is not what you are already doing. This gives you more resource, it gives you the whenua to build, perhaps, your own houses for your own people\u2014it gives you that resource to go bigger, to build things so much more long-lasting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003ESo do I believe this redress is the absolute best the negotiation team could negotiate? I have no doubt\u2014I have no doubt\u2014that those negotiators bled, as all our negotiation teams across the country have bled for our people. Is the redress appropriate? Absolutely not. It is a tiny percentage of what Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua is owed and deserves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EDuring the select committee process, the Settlement Trust spoke on how this bill will allow them to achieve many aspirations for their people. From Turakirae in the south, to Dannevirke in the North, to Cape Turnagain in the East, it will enable them to care for the taonga on their spiritually significant whenua, and protect those taonga for their tamariki, for their mokopuna, now and into the future. It will lead to that enhanced sense of pride that comes when you have your own whenua. They look forward to growing their working relationship with the Crown while always remembering the path their t\u016Bpuna forged for them. The Greens wish all of this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EKei te t\u016Bmanako ka whakatinana i \u014D moemoe\u0101 katoa m\u014D te oranga o te iwi o Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki-nui-a-rua, t\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003E[It is hoped that all your dreams will be fulfilled for the benefit of Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-rua. Greetings to you all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u002230ff18e79dcb4c91bc943b6d38e4f92a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002230ff18e79dcb4c91bc943b6d38e4f92a\u0022\u003EKAREN CHHOUR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to stand and take a short call on the Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua Claims Settlement Bill. I\u2019ve stood a few times when it comes to settlement bills and stated that these are not really my areas of expertise, and my understanding of the processes is very limited. But what I do understand is that they are a necessity to help people move forward and have a better future. So ACT is supportive of the settlement processes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EI would like to just put forward my admiration at the absolute commitment that the elders and the generations that came after have stood firm and fought for what is right, and I hope today, when this settlement is full and final, that you can stand with pride and say that we have done right by those who have passed and those who are to come. And I hope that that is a possibility after today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EThis bill addresses in good faith the repeated breaches of the Treaty by successive Governments. Governments in the 19th century failed to ensure that the core lands of the Wairarapa M\u0101ori were protected. An especially egregious breach was on property rights and the rangatiratanga guaranteed to them under article 2. Wairarapa moana, an important source of food for Wairarapa M\u0101ori, was taken from them. Wairarapa M\u0101ori fought through the courts and the political system to have the roles put right. But a deal between the Government and Wairarapa M\u0101ori for compensation of Lake Wairarapa was not honoured, and that is not good enough and that needs to be addressed. It needs to be stated here that that was not good enough, and I hope that the apologies that you\u2019re hearing today from those of us here are helpful for you to move forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EThe Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu settlement trust, or the settlement trust, and the Government began negotiations a long time ago, and I\u2019m actually quite hurt myself seeing how long this process has taken. I think I have stated a few times that when you\u2019re a victim and you\u2019ve been wronged, having to go over and over and over how you\u2019ve been wronged can actually be harmful and hurtful in itself, and each time we are re-traumatising ourselves with the stories of the past and with that hurt. I really, really want to stand here\u2014and it may not be my place\u2014and say \u201CI\u2019m sorry. I\u2019m really sorry. You should never have been put through that, and I hope that some peace can come from this.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003ENow, the settlement process started and both parties deserve credit for negotiating good faith in the beginning. And, from what I understand, a settlement deed was agreed to in 2018. A majority of the tribe agreed and voted and agreed upon that, but, unfortunately, some groups did not agree and sought their own settlements, from my understanding. But, as a result of this, a new settlement was negotiated and there was an increase from the $93 million to $115 million and an offer of a further $5 million for enhancements of the lake\u2019s environment, and this was ratified, again, by the majority of the settlement trust members who voted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003ESo, today, I would just like to say I kind of find that the courts process that has happened recently\u2014ACT finds it to be quite unhelpful, because we want to in good faith make sure that we can move forward and we can allow Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu to take ownership and control again over their futures and not have to worry about this carrying on and on and on, and re-traumatising this generation and future generations to come if it continues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003ESo I would like to just finish by saying, if this settlement has produced an apology, we must have an apology from the Crown for the breaches, cultural redress, and protocols with the local government, a return of a number of blocks of land in the Wairarapa, including the Remutaka summit and blocks of Lake Wairarapa. More than $115 million, and other redresses not in the bill\u2014and I\u2019d just like to say, hopefully the people sitting here today and listening today can agree that this was made in good faith, and I wish Wairarapa and Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu a blessed future for your next generation and generations to come. And I know that the future will be bright. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022 data-id=\u0022149dbbc73515497aae7217cdbf1d0a94\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022149dbbc73515497aae7217cdbf1d0a94\u0022\u003EPAUL EAGLE (Labour\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe te M\u0101ngai o te Whare. Ng\u0101 mihi nui ki a koutou ng\u0101 wh\u0101nau o Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-rua, e mihi atu nei, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003E[Greetings to you all, the families of Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-rua. This is my acknowledgment to you.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s an absolute pleasure to be in the House for the third reading of the Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua Claims Settlement Bill. And can I just acknowledge the Minister, the Hon Andrew Little\u2014I know, even at the last minute, our k\u014Drerorero around ensuring that today happened in an appropriate and peaceful fashion, and in the spirit of the Treaty settlement process, we can come together in the House today and ensure that this piece of legislation is passed through the final barrier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003EI\u2019m a member of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, and every settlement claim that comes to the committee has its own mamae; its own reflection of a process or a time line that, in this case, stretches decades back, and I\u2019m reminded of the mamae for this Treaty settlement. And I look back to when they first lodged their claim in 1989\u2014years later, the claim was presented to the Waitangi Tribunal, and so on and so on. I stand here today and look through and read back on some of the information about the time line and the process to where we are today, and I reflect on the other settlements that this committee and this House has been part of, and unfortunately it\u2019s all too familiar, in terms of\u2014and the previous speaker, Karen Chhour, I thought captured it well: having to go back and retell your story in the same levels of detail, to a different group of people, to a different group of decision makers, all in hope that someone, somewhere, one day is going to say, \u201CYes, we can proceed\u201D. And the good news\u2014and that\u2019s why today is a great day\u2014is there\u2019s only a few speakers to go, wh\u0101nau, and your settlement is there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223e2434e6b524f58b510ba5ab3007199\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Hurry up, I\u2019m waiting my turn!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f0bf09842de442b92fe35455e87581c\u0022\u003EPAUL EAGLE\u003C/span\u003E: I know what you mean\u2014the chief whip said 10 minutes, I\u2019m trying to cut a deal on two! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220989a299e20646329f4786945698a7d0\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Or eight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275330caac6f54bdaa298a45622863ff7\u0022\u003EPAUL EAGLE\u003C/span\u003E: Or eight. But what I want to say is, we give this the dignity of the House and acknowledge the process\u2014and I think, after all of this time, we need to take the time to acknowledge such a process. Today, the package includes the Crown apology redress, the cultural redress, and the commercial redress of some $150 million that others have talked through, and so that\u2019s the package that others have also expressed. But I want to just pick up a couple of things that have been spoken about, and that\u2019s that one of the key bits of information or one of the structures of the cultural redress that I\u2019m a real fan of, is the protocols\u2014the Crown minerals protocol and the taonga t\u016Bturu protocol, and I find that these will be the sorts of mechanisms that, in the future, Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu will be able to carry out the work, when they interact with agencies and consult on those statutory duties and functions in a way that gives this the mana that it deserves. Because I know that too often, sometimes these sorts of protocols and the way people work together\u2014which is essentially what a protocol is\u2014are quickly forgotten about, but this installs it into the settlement and ensures that the way that people interact and behave and work together in the future on addressing some of the issues that have had many years of mamae are done in a way that gives this the mana it deserves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003EThe other thing I wanted to talk about was place names. I know, in the patch of the world that I look after\u2014which includes the Chatham Islands\u2014place names are important, and I\u2019m really glad that this bill talks about 30 place names that are listed in the bill, because I think we must get that right. There are place names, and too often these come up\u2014and we\u2019ve seen it in media recently, even with street names in major New Zealand cities\u2014but I think getting place names right and using this process to recognise these is really important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003EI want to just finish now by looking at the commercial redress. I think, in terms of giving the right of first refusal to land within the area is important; I know that these mechanisms will come in handy for the post-settlement or the commercial arm or the asset holdings company of this\u2014that these mechanisms enable those transactions to take place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003EI\u2019m going to finish there and wish our wh\u0101nau all the very best as we count down\u2014literally\u2014to the final speakers, and say well done to Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua. Kia ora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u00229f9866cf7a1145cfbf7a3be49d669cd5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f9866cf7a1145cfbf7a3be49d669cd5\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te Paati M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Ka meahia taku p\u014Dtae ki runga i te t\u0113p\u016B a David Seymour kia ng\u016B ia!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003ET\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki-nui-a-rua kua whakawh\u0101iti nei ki roto i t\u0113nei Whare o t\u0101tou i t\u0113nei r\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003ETangihia \u014D t\u0101tou mate, ng\u0101 mate putuputu o te w\u0101, r\u0101tou ng\u0101 kaip\u012Bkau o t\u0113nei kaupapa i roto i ng\u0101 tau maha kua hipa ake, k\u0101ore i konei i t\u0113nei r\u0101. Kei te tangi tonu, kei te poroporoaki tonu, kei te mihi tonu. N\u014D reira ng\u0101 mate putuputu o te w\u0101, ki runga i t\u0113n\u0101 marae, ki t\u0113n\u0101 marae o t\u0101tou, haere, haere, whakangaro atu r\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EKi ng\u0101 pakeke kua tae mai nei i t\u0113nei r\u0101, t\u0113r\u0101 pea, tamariki tonu ana koutou i te w\u0101 i heip\u016B nei t\u0113nei kaupapa ki runga i a koutou, \u0101, i t\u0113nei r\u0101 kua hinahina te m\u0101hunga, kua wher\u016B ki ng\u0101 taha, kua mamae ng\u0101 waewae, engari kei te koi tonu te hinengaro ki te kite i t\u0113nei rangi m\u0101 koutou, haere mai, haere mai. \u0100, ki ng\u0101 kaiwhakahaere o t\u0113nei ker\u0113me, ki ng\u0101 rangatira o ng\u0101 hap\u016B, ng\u0101 upoko ariki kua tae mai nei i t\u0113nei r\u0101, e te wh\u0101nau e ng\u0101 hap\u016B e te iwi o Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-rua, nei r\u0101 te mihi atu ki a koutou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E[I will place my hat on David Seymour\u2019s table to keep him quiet!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EGreetings one and all. Greetings, Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-rua gathered in this House of ours today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EWe must grieve our dead, the frequent deaths of the time, those who have borne this issue over the many years that have passed and who are not here today. We grieve you still, we farewell you still, and we acknowledge you still. So, to the frequent deaths of the time on each and every marae of ours, go, go to the unseen realm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003ETo the elders who have come here today, you were possibly still children when this issue came to you, and, today your hair has greyed, your flanks are weary and your legs are aching but your mind is still sharp to see this day of yours, welcome, welcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EAnd to the people who have managed this claim, to the leaders of the subtribes, to the paramount chiefs who have come here today, to the families, the subtribes, to Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-rua, this is my greeting to you.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge the mamae that the Crown has caused throughout this process, including their steam train on their train tracks that made you late today. We know too well the divide and rule tactics of the Crown, ignoring the sidelining of wh\u0101nau and attempting to pit them against one another. There is only one party to blame for the division caused among our people, and that is the Government. Whether successive or current, how dare the Government divide our people? How dare the Government continue to create more hurt and pain on our people? How dare the Government create breaches well after 1992 and expect to get away with it? How dare the Government create division between the relationships and whakapapa of our people? Whakapapa is about connection. Hap\u016B and iwi boundaries are about connection, but this P\u0101keh\u0101 process is about division. It\u2019s absolutely racist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EKahungunu, your loss of whenua, loss of culture, and the severing of whakapapa has only been further entrenched in the Treaty settlement process. This mamae has only intensified in the last two years. Te Paati M\u0101ori will always maintain that Treaty settlements are never full and final. Your people have waited 180 years for justice, only to be repaid with further injustice that is deeply entrenched in the settlement process. This injustice rests with the Crown, and the Crown alone. They rendered your t\u012Bpuna virtually landless, leaving less than 1.5 percent. They abused your moana, and have continued to abuse your mana and that of your whanaunga who were displaced and moved to another iwi entirely, which created trauma and breaches to that iwi, as they lost iwi land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EI have likened it to the trail of tears, the genocide and displacement of the First Nations people at the hands of the United States Government, Government to Government. Even the Waitangi Tribunal were in disbelief at your treatment, stating, \u201CSo much that took place now seems barely credible, so manifestly unfair was it to tangata whenua of the region, who, by contrast, seem to have conducted themselves throughout with remarkable restraint, dignity, and honour.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003ENothing can take away the pain, the suffering, and the trauma that your people have endured and still endure today. No settlement will right the wrongs of State-sponsored terrorism at the hand of the Crown and the Government. Te Paati M\u0101ori does not accept that the settlements are full and final. Our trauma does not lie in the past, and today\u2019s settlement is a clear example of that. Inequity, poverty, and the desecration of whenua and the separation of wh\u0101nau and whakapapa is happening in the present and will continue to be our future if we continue down this track.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003ETe Tiriti o Waitangi is not for settling; it is for honouring. Full and final settlement is not what Te Tiriti is about. Te Tiriti was signed before it was breached. Our people had tino rangatiratanga before Te Tiriti o Waitangi arrived here. After 34 years, we celebrate this day with you, but there should not be winners and losers today. Instead, it is a shameful day for both major parties who have been part of this process based on intimidation and Crown-engineered Treaty exhaustion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EThe Government can solve all of these problems by adopting our mana motuhake policy. This would include establishing a M\u0101ori Parliament and implementing M\u0101tike Mai recommendations for constitutional transformation, and I acknowledge Moana Jackson today. Now, if the Government adopted our mana motuhake policy, there wouldn\u2019t be an issue today with the parties, because we would establish our own M\u0101ori Parliament. P\u0101k\u014Dwhai, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E[P\u0101k\u014Dwhai, I acknowledge you.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EImplement all M\u0101tike Mai recommendations, overhaul the Tiriti settlement process, and end the fiscal envelope. How dare we still be tied to the fiscal envelope, which was based on the fiscal numbers in 1992? This is 2022. Insert relativity causes into Te Tiriti settlements to ensure all iwi have parity with Ng\u0101i Tahu and Waikato-Tainui. We mihi to them for opening the door for us, but it should be open to all of us. Make Waitangi Tribunal recommendations binding on the Crown and implement all unaddressed Wai claims recommendations. Abolish full and final settlements and the large natural groupings approach to recognise mana whenua groups. Return conservation land to wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi. Introduce a first right of refusal policy for mana whenua when private land of historical significance comes up for sale. This would fix everything, and we invite the Government or any Government in the future to adopt that policy. This can only happen if our people stop putting their faith in P\u0101keh\u0101 parties, but put our faith in ourselves to ensure we are in a stronger position to fight these racist processes. It\u2019s time to decolonise ourselves, jump off the Endeavour, and re-indigenise ourselves back on the T\u0101kitimu, eh Auntie Frances?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003ETe Tiriti o Waitangi is not for settling; it is for honouring. Full and final, like we said, should never ever be the be-all and end-all. You get 1 percent of your total due. Our tamariki, mokopuna should be fighting for the rest of their lives for the 99 percent that we are owed. The only way this nation can work is when M\u0101ori assert their rights to self-management, self-determination, and self-governance over all of our domains. It\u2019s time to ditch the Treaty settlement process and give mana back to tangata whenua so that we can set up our own processes for getting our land back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EWe will never ever settle, like we said. Te Paati M\u0101ori will not stand in the way of our people\u2019s development today, but we sympathise with all the parties for the continued breaches the Government continued to endure on our people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003ENg\u0101ti Kahungunu, n\u0101 koutou t\u0113nei r\u0101, engari kei te aroha tonu ki te noho wehewehetanga i roto i a koutou an\u014D. Ehara n\u0101 koutou te h\u0113. N\u0101 te K\u0101wanatanga, n\u0101 te Karauna te h\u0113. Te whakawehewehe i a t\u0101tou, koin\u0101 hoki t\u0101 r\u0101tou mahi i ng\u0101 w\u0101 katoa. Kia kaha ki a koutou ki te whakawhirinaki i a koutou. Kia kaha ki a koutou ki te whakat\u014Dp\u016B i a koutou. Kia kaha ki a koutou kia t\u016B m\u0101ia i roto i t\u014D Kahungunutanga, kia m\u0101ia, kia ng\u0101wari te h\u012Bkoinga o \u0101u mokopuna ki roto i t\u0113nei ao hurihuri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E[Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu, this is your day, but I sympathise with your having been separated. This was not your fault. It was the Government\u2019s fault, it was the Crown\u2019s fault. Divide and separate\u2014that has always been their modus operandi. Be strong in your support of one another. Be strong in gathering together. Be strong in standing confidently in your Kahungunu-ness, so that your grandchildren can be confident and relaxed in their journey in this changing world.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EI acknowledge the National Party for giving us an extra five minutes. They may have regretted it after that speech, but we only get five minutes; we had 10 today. Because of the importance and the highlight and the spotlight of this particular Treaty claim, we wanted to give it some due time. So anei, like we said, you can see the House is partly empty, e hika m\u0101, but there\u2019s only one party here 100 percent in attendance today and that is Te Paati M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira, e hika m\u0101, k\u0101ore t\u0113nei e whakat\u014Droa i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero, kia kaha ki a koutou. Anei r\u0101 t\u014D mokopuna, anei r\u0101 a Kahukura Mihiata i moe i a Apanui, anei te mokopuna e t\u016B nei, e mihi nei, e tangi nei, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, kia ora t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E[And so, friends, I don\u2019t want to prolong my speech; be strong. Here stands your grandchild, here stands Kahukura Mihiata who married Apanui, here stands your grandchild acknowledging you, grieving. Greetings to you all. Be well, one and all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022870f668cf4a14249a1b82e793a5cac13\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022870f668cf4a14249a1b82e793a5cac13\u0022\u003EGINNY ANDERSEN (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te Mana Whakaw\u0101. E koa ana te ng\u0101kau e t\u016B i konei k\u014Drero ai ki te Pire Whakataunga K\u0113reme a Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-rua. Tuatahi iho, me mihi ki ng\u0101 uri o Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-rua, he mihi aroha ki a koutou i t\u0113nei r\u0101. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E[I am pleased to stand here to talk to the Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-rua Claims Settlement Bill. Firstly, I must acknowledge the descendants of Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-rua. This is my compassionate greeting to you today.] And I\u2019m real pleased that your train made it here on time today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EAs I\u2019ve learnt about your history\u2014as I\u2019ve learnt about your claim\u2014through the process of this bill proceeding through the House, through being on the select committee and hearing submissions, it has brought home sharply to me that the actions and the wrongdoings of the Crown not only harm and damage relationships with M\u0101ori and the Crown but also harm and damage relationships between M\u0101ori and M\u0101ori, and that is sad for us and our country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI would like to acknowledge the fact that we have reached this far in the House today, and I would like to acknowledge the fact that all parties in this House are voting for this bill. It\u2019s an important tradition that we have had in Treaty settlement bills that we all support, and it\u2019s really good to see that continuing today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe Treaty settlement process is imperfect. But sometimes, on afternoons like this, when the House sits and has a Treaty bill, where we have te reo M\u0101ori, where we have waiata, where we have karanga coming out, and where we speak to the gallery and not to the Speaker, it feels just a little bit more like a marae and not so much like a P\u0101keh\u0101 institution that it is. I wish that change to keep evolving and keep changing as we continue to adapt and change as a country, and we continue to reaffirm our Treaty partnership.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu settlement package will finally and comprehensively settle all remaining Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu historical Treaty of Waitangi claims. The settlement package includes a Crown apology, the redress and cultural redress, and financial and commercial redress of $115 million plus interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua legislation will settle all historical claims. The Te Rohe o Rongokako Joint Redress Act will give effect to the specific cultural redress shared between Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu and Rangit\u0101ne o Wairarapa and Rangit\u0101ne o Tamaki nui-\u0101-rua, and provide for their respective deeds of settlement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EKa hoki au ki aku k\u014Drero i te p\u0101nuitanga tuatahi m\u014D t\u0113nei pire. He roa, he k\u014Dpikopiko te huarahi ki te whakataunga, \u0101, he huhua hoki ng\u0101 tukituki i runga i t\u0113nei huarahi. E rongona tahi ana t\u0101tou i ng\u0101 nawe e whakap\u0101 tonu ana i te mamae i te kinikini i te rangi nei. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EKoia t\u0113nei ko te hiahia o te Karauna kia tohua ki te whakataunga kei te aonga o t\u0113tahi rangi hou m\u014D te whakahoanga o Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu me te Karauna. Ko te kaupapa o t\u0113nei r\u0101 ko te mihi i te onamata me te tahuri ki te anamata. He roa te haerenga, \u0101e, tae noa ki t\u0113nei r\u0101. E kore e ea i t\u0113nei mea te whakataunga ko ng\u0101 mahi h\u0113 a te Karauna ko te mamae r\u0101nei e p\u0101 ki a Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu. Engari e t\u016Bmanako ana taku ng\u0101kau ka noho te whakataunga nei hei t\u012Bmatanga m\u014D te whakahoanga pakari k\u0113 i waenga i a Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu me te Karauna, he whakahoanga e takea ana i te whakapono o t\u0113tahi ki t\u0113tahi, te mahi tahi me te whakaute i te Tiriti me \u014Dna m\u0101t\u0101pono. Ka tautoko au i t\u0113nei pire ki te Whare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira, e te iwi, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E[I return to what I said during the first reading of this bill. It has been a long and winding road to reach this settlement, and there have been many stumbling blocks along the way. Together we have heard about the grievances that still cause pain and gnaw away to this very day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe desire of the Crown is this\u2014to indicate by way of this settlement that a new day dawns with this partnership between Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu and the Crown. Today\u2019s purpose is to acknowledge the past but turn towards the future. Yes, it has been a long road to arrive at this day. This settlement will never take away the deceitful actions of the Crown or the pain felt by Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu. But it is my heartfelt hope that the settlement will stand as a beginning to this strong relationship between Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu and the Crown, a relationship stemming from trust of each other, one of collaboration and one focused on upholding the Treaty and its principles. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ETherefore, to the tribe, greetings to you. Greetings, greetings one and all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed51b213b7c84c83a49d1a1a51e1272c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed51b213b7c84c83a49d1a1a51e1272c\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a privilege to take a call on this bill. I\u2019m not going to replicate the election speech of my colleague down the front here, but I\u2019m going to congratulate him and also Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu on the importance they must have in this House because the M\u0101ori Party have full representation here this afternoon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EBut aside from that, it is a privilege to take a call on these Treaty bills. I often get to speak on Treaty bills in the House; never having sat or having the privilege of sitting on the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee. I think it\u2019s a particularly difficult issue, really, for the House to deal with. Also I think it\u2019s extraordinarily difficult for those people who, effectively, are negotiating away not their rights so much as negotiating away the challenges of almost 200 years in this case, and in many other cases, where, effectively, you\u2019re coming to an agreement on some issues that have occurred over virtually 200 years, and settling, I suppose, in the best interests of both the iwi and of New Zealand in general, because we need to find a way through this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EWhen you look around the world\u2014and there\u2019s been some reference to this in the House already this afternoon\u2014these challenges are almost universal around the world in one form or another. I think, as the Minister said earlier, there\u2019s no perfect way of getting to the end of a Treaty settlement. It\u2019ll never be perfect and we can\u2019t expect it to be perfect, but at least those people who put their energy and effort into trying to make it perfect, I think, are pretty special. They\u2019re taking quite a risk, when you think about it, because, effectively, they\u2019re committing future generations of their wh\u0101nau, their family, their iwi to, I guess, resolve a piece of history that\u2019s gone before them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI want to talk about one of those people very briefly this afternoon, because I had the privilege of sitting beside him this morning. I just want to speak about the Hon Ron Mark, who might not be the biggest man who\u2019s ever existed in this House, but none the less in many ways he\u2019s very large. And the reason I want to talk about him is because he makes quite a mark on New Zealand history, when you think about it. He\u2019s intimately involved in this agreement today. This morning we welcomed the Poseidon P-8s to \u014Ch\u0101kea, which is actually my neighbour in the Rangit\u012Bkei, and he was there. He, of course, was the Minister of Defence at the time those planes were ordered. And tomorrow morning he\u2019ll be back in the Wairarapa as the Mayor of Carterton; he\u2019s been the Mayor of Carterton before. I think that\u2019s typical of the type of people who get involved in these processes. Right throughout New Zealand, and particularly in the north of my electorate, you see many people who have a lot of influence not in political life so much as community life in New Zealand who are involved in these Treaty settlement negotiations, and I think that reflects to a large extent the importance that is placed on these negotiations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI just want to speak very briefly about some issues that Dr Reti raised earlier in his speech, and we spoke about it in a bill last week in the House related to Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu and Rangit\u0101ne in the Wairarapa, where there\u2019s some disagreement on a number of issues. There\u2019s always going to be disagreement on these in the back of these negotiations. It\u2019s inevitable because, as I said earlier, we\u2019re dealing with 200 years of history\u2014very difficult to deal with in any other manner. And so I think it\u2019s important in this instance that Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu had the right to settle this process and get it out of the way\u2014not get it out of the way from their perspective but get to a resolution in it, because I think my friend from the M\u0101ori Party mentioned earlier that every day you delay these things devalues the value of the settlement to some extent. And I think that\u2019s a challenge for us all as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI just wanted to read two things out of a media release, or a release that came out at the time of the bill coming to the House for its first reading, and it typifies almost every Treaty settlement bill that I\u2019ve been part of. It seems extraordinary to me that Governments of the past did what they did, and I think it\u2019s also extraordinary that we continue to do these things today. I suppose in 50 years\u2019 time we\u2019ll look back and think what we did today wasn\u2019t right. So you can never be right, but I just want to read this very quickly: \u201CIn 1853, the government promised Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu that it would set up a fund with the profits made from land sales. This, it said, would provide education, health and economic benefits. The fund never arrived, and neither did any benefits.\u201D And the second thing I want to read is: \u201CIn 1896, to protect and preserve Wairarapa Moana, Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu gifted the lake to the Crown on the promise that it would create a reserve surrounding it. But this promise was also never fulfilled.\u201D Of course, that was part of last week\u2019s discussion and the bill we dealt with last week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003ESo I think that it\u2019s a pretty special day in any of these Treaty settlement processes when we get to the third reading. And I want to congratulate Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu and their negotiators and the people involved with them on getting to this point. I think, as I\u2019ve said, you go into these things with significant trepidation, and that\u2019s where we get to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI just want to very briefly mention one other point of these settlement bills, which I think are quite special and have a lot of opportunity, and I\u2019ll quote a little opportunity out of the Rangit\u012Bkei in a minute. But I noticed that part of this settlement are two Landcorp farms: one is Range View, which my own family farm very close to. And that farm is now in trees. I\u2019m sort of hoping that Range View won\u2019t end up all in pine trees one day too, because it\u2019s some beautiful farmland on Range View, and I would hope that that doesn\u2019t happen to it, as has happened to some of that country in that part of New Zealand. The reason I quoted that is because in my very own electorate Flock House, which also was part of my family historically, is now called Te Hou and is a beautifully farmed farm. And it was part of a Treaty settlement process\u2014came out of AgResearch, actually. The Hon Chris Finlayson negotiated that with Ng\u0101ti Apa. But the reason I use that example is because it shows the advantage that can be gained from these Treaty settlements if suitable land is made available through them. And Range View, in my view, is the one I know a little bit about, and I think that\u2019s certainly suitable land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003ESo I just want to commend the way that this negotiation has taken place. Despite what some members of the House have said, I hope that at least it provides some resolution to Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu and I have no problem commending this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022 data-id=\u002268025110c2ea45b1a0c56297a75c4847\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268025110c2ea45b1a0c56297a75c4847\u0022\u003EHon MEKA WHAITIRI (Minister of Customs):\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003ETuku whakarererere \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003ENg\u0101 roimata i aku kamo \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003ERite tonu ki te rere \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EO te awa o Ngaruroro \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EKore rawa e mutu \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003ETe \u0101roharoha i a au \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EHaere r\u0101 ai e ng\u0101 mate \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u0100roharoha nui\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EAnei r\u0101 te wh\u0101nau \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EA Hineahuone \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EE mihi tangi atu nei\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EKi a koutou e te iwi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003ET\u0101nenui\u0101rangi \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003ETe Whare T\u016Bpuna \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EAnei r\u0101 ng\u0101 mokopuna \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E\u0100roharoha nui\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EE ng\u0101 mana, \u014Dku rau rangatira m\u0101, e kui m\u0101, e koro m\u0101, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou i runga i te kaupapa whakahirahira i te ahiahi nei. Anei ng\u0101 aroha ki a koutou katoa, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E[Just like the flow \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EOf the Ngaruroro River\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003ESo flow the tears\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EFrom my eyes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EMy sadness\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EIs never ending\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EAs I farewell my dead,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EWith deep sadness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EHere stand the family\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EOf Hineahuone\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EGrieving and weeping\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EFor your tribe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003ET\u0101nenui\u0101rangi\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EIs the meeting house\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EHere stand his descendants,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EWith deep sadness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003E To all authorities, to all chiefly peoples, to the elders, I acknowledge you. Greetings, greetings and welcome to these important discussions this afternoon. I greet you all with compassion and love.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EThe significance of that waiata was that it was penned by my great-grandfather Ihakara Rapana\u2014or, to the P\u0101keh\u0101\u2014Ike Robin. He wrote that lament because he lost his younger son, my grandfather, at the age of 42, and it talks about losing his son. He was proudly Kahungunu, from Wairoa but raised on the banks of the Ngaruroro River, at Kohup\u0101tiki marae. I share that because my cousin, his mokopuna, Hayden Hape is one of the negotiators who has been acknowledged in this. So I mihi to my cousin and to my Hape wh\u0101nau of T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua. The second part of that song was penned by my grandmother Ruruhira Robin, who was the daughter-in-law of Ihakara Robin, and I frame that because she is also one of many large shareholders in Wairarapa Moana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003ESo I stand here proudly in acknowledging this significant day. It has been a hard road, it has been a complex road, but we are here today, and I want to honour all those who have come to pay witness to this third and final reading; to all those who are no longer here with us, who know that we are doing the right thing. So I want to acknowledge not only my cousin Hayden but also Ron Mark. I want to acknowledge Uncle Haami Te Whaiti, Robin Potangaroa, Marama Tuuta, Ra Smith, and, of course, Ian Perry and all those who have guided our people over these trying years of final settlement. It is not an easy road. As a former negotiator, you get knives in the front of you, you get knives in the back of you, you get knives on all sorts, but you\u2019ve got to trust that, at some point, we as a people have to move, and in celebrating and acknowledging the third and final reading I am being quite honest that it is not a fair deal\u2014it is not; it is fraught with a whole lot of challenges\u2014but it is something the iwi themselves want to proceed with. And who are we in this House to stand in opposition to that desire, knowing that we have our own whanaunga taking claims to prevent this progression. I want to acknowledge that, and I said that because my grandmother is a shareholder and I have been asked to help and try and stop the claim, and I did actually say to this one person who asked me to stop the claim, \u201CIt\u2019s a brave person that tries to get in the middle of a Treaty settlement.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003ESo I want to make sure that those here in the House acknowledging this third reading know it wasn\u2019t an easy undertaking, and I want to acknowledge my colleague the Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations, the Hon Andrew Little. He has been steadfast in supporting the process of this Treaty settlement bill despite, like we all, getting letters from\u2014I\u2019m being very careful in choosing my language. You have major players, and then you have side players, and it\u2019s amazing how, in Treaty settlements, all the side players all determine that they need to be major players when, really, when you strip it back, in Treaty settlements, there are major players\u2014they are the affected iwi and the Crown. Those are the major players, and in this settlement it was very clear that the iwi was represented by Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua. That was the iwi, and they were mandated to go to negotiate with the Crown. And of course you get others, and of course it wasn\u2019t their doing that the Crown gave them whenua in Pou\u0101kani. It wasn\u2019t their fault; it was the Crown\u2019s. And so it was the Crown\u2019s obligation to rectify it. So with the blessing of the iwi, who wanted to proceed with this third and final reading, despite all the challenges, despite all the hiccoughs, I actually think it\u2019s the right thing to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003ESo to all the parties in this House, who have unanimously stood up in support of the third and final reading of the Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua Claims Settlement Bill, it gives me great honour as the local MP for this electorate, for the final Kahungunu settlement bill\u2014because we\u2019ve got six; we\u2019ve got six, proudly six\u2014that this is the last of a suite of the Kahungunu large natural groupings that cover the Wairarapa into T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua. And it gives me real pleasure to stand and say a few words in support of the people in the public gallery, those watching at home, those who are no longer here with us, on the significance of this final chapter and the exciting journey that I know they\u2019re already embarking on. This legitimises who they are\u2014who they are in Wairarapa and who they are in T\u0101maki nui-a-Rua\u2014to continue the good work that I know those negotiators have laid the platform, and the leaderships that are yet to come through, to ensure that the settlement today is not only for the living now but for our future yet to come, and it is an exciting time to stand in support 100 percent with this settlement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003ESo, Madam Speaker, with those few words, can I say thank you to all those that have been involved, thank you for the perseverance, thank you for the sacrifice, because it isn\u2019t everything that got taken from us. I want to pay tribute to our wh\u0101nau in Pou\u0101kani. I want to pay particular acknowledgment to our wh\u0101nau in Pou\u0101kani that we have not forgotten them, and we will continue to embrace them as we go forward, because they are us and we are them. And despite us being apart, many, many kilometres away, through no fault of our own, it is incumbent on us, as we pass this final bill, that we extend that arm of aroha to the many Kahungunu wh\u0101nau that still live in Pou\u0101kani. They are Kahungunu and we are Kahungunu, and with this passing of the bill, I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022073496a0-73b7-426f-97f8-916bd542b0fa\u0022\u003EWaiata\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224cc079d442a44e0ca8b0dbc2b970c87e\u0022\u003ESmokefree Environments and Regulated Products (Smoked Tobacco) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dd4dac5296d941a3b8e8b350cbbb23c0\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb312bf85f13471cbc4d81753bb5e49a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb312bf85f13471cbc4d81753bb5e49a\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products (Smoked Tobacco) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224998b904802b4245810c6d14d4694855\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bc51c3cde3146e6886cad34c15779c6\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products (Smoked Tobacco) Amendment Bill be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI want to start this speech, not in the words of my own, but in the words of 12-year-old P\u014Dtatau, who submitted to the Health Committee\u2019s hearing in T\u0101maki-maka-rau, and this is what he said. He said, \u201CWhy do you, the Government, support businesses that sell tobacco that kills M\u0101ori, that makes us very sick? That is wrong. You can make it right and make businesses stop selling tobacco.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EMy message to P\u014Dtatau is this: you\u2019re right. There is no good reason to allow a product to be sold that kills half the people that use it. I can tell you that we will end this in future as we pass this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EThis bill will create generational change, and it will leave a legacy of better health for our youth. It will allow New Zealanders to enjoy more quality years with their wh\u0101nau and friends. They will have healthier pregnancies. Babies will be born at term and stay in their mother\u2019s arms rather than be snatched away to neonatal intensive care. It will reduce hospitalisations and reduce the burden of smoking-related illness. It will save thousands of lives and billions for the future health system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003ESadly, most people have a story about someone they know who has been harmed by tobacco, and that is reflected in the many stories submitted to the Health Committee. One submitter spoke of being a teenager and witnessing smoking-related illness and death in their wh\u0101nau. A nurse described her distress at caring for people with chronic lung disease. Another submitter said, \u201CA lot of my wh\u0101nau and very close friends have passed away through cancer and because of smoking. Eighty percent of the people in our urupa died of cancer.\u201D And one, who saw \u201Cthe three most important people to me, the pillars of my whanaunga, the matriarchs of our wh\u0101nau, all died of lung cancer, smoking, health issues. I cared for most of them in their dying days, and it was hard to see, hard to witness\u201D. So she wants a better future for her daughter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EThese stories ring true to me because they are the sort of stories that I heard day in and day out as a doctor in our health system. I met people coming back into the emergency department, week after week, as a result of their chronic lung conditions; struggling for breath, knowing that they couldn\u2019t give up smoking, even while they knew that it was killing them. I met people whose gangrene I tried to treat, but when I couldn\u2019t, they had to go to a surgeon for amputations. I sat with people while I told them about their lung cancer diagnosis, and then again, later, as they died.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003ETobacco causes so much harm for our community. By voting for this bill, we are saying we\u2019re not prepared to let our people be sacrificed for vested interests like the tobacco industry. We\u2019re saying no to the tobacco industry loading up their product with nicotine to keep people hooked. We\u2019re getting tobacco out of communities, particularly low-income communities, where retail outlets cluster.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EThis legislation accelerates our progress towards a smoke-free future, and it is a future that is close, within reach; our smoking rate is 8 percent. We know that P\u0101keh\u0101 New Zealanders are well on the way to reaching that target of 5 percent smoking, but we have to do the measures in this bill to create an equitable outcome, to make sure that M\u0101ori and Pasifika also reach that goal and share in that better future with us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EWhile thinking about the future, it is also important to reflect on how we have come to this point and how we are able to make this decision today. Over 30 years, Aotearoa has made history as one of the first countries to take bold action to save its people from the harms of tobacco. I want to acknowledge the work of Helen Clark, who was health Minister at the time and brought in the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Act 1990. It was a historic measure. Today, we can celebrate another historic moment again, with the passing of this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EIt has been 12 years since the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee inquiry presented its recommendations for the Government. In fact, it was that inquiry that set a target of the smoke-free goal that was adopted by the Government, and it\u2019s that goal that is a foundation of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EWe are 70 years now from when cigarettes were first identified as one of the leading causes of cancer. Aotearoa New Zealand, today passing this legislation, is saying that we are going to stop the harm that tobacco causes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI want to note that smoke-free has previously attracted bipartisan support in this House. Initially, the National Party was supporting this bill. Well, what has changed? Are there new political opportunities open to the National Party, and are they prepared to let thousands of New Zealanders die to pursue those opportunities? Dr Reti, I know you know better; you have the opportunity to put yourself and your party on the right side of history, and I say to you\u2014I say to you again\u2014vote for this bill or renounce your oath.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EOne of the key outcomes of this bill is to reduce the disparities that continue to be so keenly experienced because of the deadly stubborn habit that is smoked tobacco. Let\u2019s be clear: the modelling shows that for M\u0101ori women, the life expectancy gap between them and P\u0101keh\u0101 will be reduced by a quarter; what other vote will you take in your life that could make such an important difference to the health of M\u0101ori? I find it very hard to think of one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EThis is a singular issue, and parties who believe in caring for the health of their people need to vote for this bill. By doing so, we will reach a vision that one submitter described as \u201Cbetter health, cleaner air for our wh\u0101nau, to live and work and to have recreation in a smoke-free environment. We will break the cycle of harm caused by tobacco.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge colleagues in the House. I want to express my gratitude to Tangi Utikere and the members of the Health Committee, whose deliberations improved the shape of this bill\u2014and yes, I include my colleague from the Green Party Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick in that gratitude.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI want to also thank the officials from the Ministry of Health, led by Sally Stewart, who gave excellent advice on this topic; the Parliamentary Counsel Office; submitters as well. I want to thank the many advocates and researchers and others in the tobacco control sector who have kept this issue going even when they didn\u2019t find support in Government. Their passion, their determination, and their collective efforts have brought us to this day, after so many petitions, submissions, and research.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI want to thank the health workers and community health promotion experts at the grassroots level. They have stood alongside smokers and communities through thick and thin, when they received support from Government and also when they didn\u2019t, helping people to make the change to be smoke-free. I can\u2019t name them all, but the ones that I have recently had engagement with, like The Hashtags of Wainuiomata campaigning for smoke-free cars; K\u0101ute Pasifika in Hamilton, de-normalising smoking; H\u0101pai te Hauora with their health promotion; the Cancer Society, particularly in South Canterbury, where they\u2019re lobbying councils for more smoke-free environments; the work done by the Northland community to address retail outlets in their community\u2014I say to those community activists and health promoters that our work is not done. We need to continue to support our people towards our smoke-free goal, as they have done for years\u2014but also after the passage of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EFinally, I wanted to share a plea from one submitter, who said, \u201CA lot of my family members have passed away from tobacco. So if you really want your family members to be here with you today and tomorrow, make sure you support this bill.\u201D I can\u2019t think of a better sentiment to take into the Christmas holidays, knowing that we\u2019re voting for a bill that will keep New Zealanders alive for longer, which will make more families have more time together. It is with great pleasure that I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7907bf2b27843c399038346cbe731e8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7907bf2b27843c399038346cbe731e8\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u00222d6da6f5d4a443dca0f13f81688977e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d6da6f5d4a443dca0f13f81688977e7\u0022\u003EDr SHANE RETI (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. National has never disagreed with the end point of nicotine reduction\u2014never have, and we don\u2019t here today\u2014but we do disagree with the process that purportedly is going to get there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s remember, we offered a bipartisan view. We offered an alternative and the Government said, \u201CNo.\u201D So before they point the finger and say, \u201CYou don\u2019t want to play\u201D, that is not what happened. National supports nicotine reduction. National supports the smoke-free goals. In 2011, the National Government announced the smoke-free 2025 goals\u2014let\u2019s remember it was goals in our hands. And this arose from the 2010 M\u0101ori Affairs Committee recommendations that by 2025 we would be smoke-free. Is that going to be true? Are we going to be smoke-free by 2025? That\u2019s not possible, and I\u2019ll tell you why it\u2019s not possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EIn 2018, interim targets were set. In the baseline in 2011\u2014when the National Government started down this mission\u2014the smoking rate for all adults was 16.3 percent, so interim target rates were set. That interim target rate was, in 2018, 10 percent. And what happened when we got there? When we got there, it was 13.1 percent. So in 2018, we\u2019d already failed the target. And this Government\u2019s presuming that what they\u2019re doing here today\u2014that all this hurry and rush at the expense, as I\u2019ll talk to later, of retailers\u2014is because they want to hit the 2025 goal. It will not happen. It is not possible. You don\u2019t actually start retail reduction until 2024. You don\u2019t start denicotinisation until 2025. It is not possible that this Government will reach the 2025 goal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003ESo given that is a statement of fact, what is the hurry to get rid of small retailers and cast aside others in their ambitious rush for the sound bite and for the virtue signalling? What is the hurry? This Government will not reach the 2025 goals and they knew it in the very beginning. Yet they\u2019ve used the argument of urgency and a need to get to this goal to justify their poor processes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EOur positioning on this bill has been to achieve nicotine reduction with the least collateral damage possible. Sounds reasonable, doesn\u2019t it? Labour\u2019s position is to achieve nicotine reduction regardless of the collateral damage. Under Labour, who is the most affected? Who is the most damaged? The same hard-working retailers who are currently being damaged by their ram raids and their burglaries\u2014our corner dairies who open all day to provide the convenience that we want. How ironic, then, it is the same convenience on behalf of the Government that will close their corner dairies for the sake of their virtue-signalling experimental initiatives. It is convenient to sacrifice small retailers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThis didn\u2019t need to happen. There was an alternative pathway that could still achieve large amounts\u2014take the better pathway towards a 2025 goal, actually, than what\u2019s being put on the table here today\u2014but Labour didn\u2019t want to hear about it. All they saw was the sound bite arising from, \u201CWe\u2019ll do a smoke-free generation.\u201D Remind me, who\u2019s implementing that? How\u2019s that gone? Or do retail reduction? Remind me, who\u2019s implementing that? How\u2019s that gone? We\u2019ll denicotinise\u2014now, that does have some weight to it: it\u2019s being deployed in Colorado as we speak. It actually does have a pathway that is successful, but they didn\u2019t want to know. Remember, go and look at the Facebook page. We offered to collaborate and they didn\u2019t want to know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThis Government has chosen to do retail reduction first and reduce dairy selling tobacco products from 6,000 to 600 retailers. It is the milk and bread and other products that people also purchase that generates their living, not the low-margin tobacco. But no, retailers were\u2014as the Minister said to us\u2014easy to implement. What she also said was retail reduction has much uncertainty. We know that already; that\u2019s why it\u2019s a foolish thing to be starting with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThis was unnecessary. The National Party proposed denicotinisation first and then retail reduction if needed. The Government wanted the easy hits\u2014the sacrificial lamb on the altar of virtue signalling. We could have had both.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EWhen the local dairy is closed and you have to drive further, consuming more petrol, emitting more fumes, thank a Labour Government who didn\u2019t protect these people and didn\u2019t protect their livelihoods. They were expendable for the sound bite. Corner dairies: you are expendable for the sound bite, the Labour sound bite.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThe first sound bite came out last year when it was announced around about December, the smoke-free generation and the retail reduction. There is no epiphany to this. This is no original thinking from Labour; it\u2019s been on the cards for years. No one deployed, it for several reasons; (1) no one was sure it was going to work; and (2) the risks and the collateral damage were too great. So no new thinking here. Both here or internationally, this has been discussed for decades.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EI think there\u2019s also a point to make to people who are saying reducing smoking will reduce ram raids. Well, that\u2019s kind of circuitous logic, because what we also know is that the ram raids also attract attention towards alcohol and towards vaping products. I think that\u2019s a circuitous logic to say reducing the number of retailers is going to reduce the ram raids. I don\u2019t believe that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EWe also put on the table, which wasn\u2019t mentioned here today in the Minister\u2019s speech\u2014which, for the very first time, actually occupied her full 10 minutes. So unconvincing is this bill that in her first reading it was eight minutes and 27 seconds; in the second reading, seven minutes and 13 seconds. We\u2019d sat down before we had to get up again to answer her\u2014that\u2019s how unconvincing she was and is on her own bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EWe put forward, at the committee of the whole House, a number of Supplementary Order Papers (SOPs). The first SOP proposed the change in scheduling that I\u2019m enunciating here. The second talked to vaping; the second to the Local Government New Zealand remit that said, \u201CCan we do something about the proximity of new specialist vaping retailers when they go for their application?\u201D We thought, \u201CYou know, that kind of make sense.\u201D And they gave the example of Dargaville, and I won\u2019t reiterate that\u2014we did that in the committee of the whole House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003ESo we put forward a very reasonable proposal, supported by Local Government New Zealand, saying, \u201CCould the Director-General of Health please take into account the proximity of other specialist vape retailers when they issue new licences?\u201D The Labour Government didn\u2019t want to hear it. They didn\u2019t want to hear that community voice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EWe also put forward an SOP that talked to doing a better job with underage vaping. I honestly believe that across the House, we probably are all concerned with underage vaping, which has tripled, roughly, from 3 percent to 9 percent is some of the figures that I\u2019m hearing. Yes, it has achieved the goal that we wanted to achieve with adults\u2014and I believe it will continue to do so, and that is a good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EBut we always had that concern that it would be a gateway. It looks like it may well be\u2014not quite as much as we thought, but still a gateway. We also had that concern that it would start to disrupt social networks, and that even the small amount of nicotine that\u2019s in vaping could be dangerous to a developing teenage brain. These concerns remain. These concerns have been brought to us, and I believe brought to every single person in this House. I defy anyone here to say they haven\u2019t received an email from parents, schools, and principals saying, \u201CWe have a problem with underage vaping.\u201D As the newspaper headlines said, \u201CAn epidemic of underage vaping.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003ESo this was a gentle SOP proposing that maybe we should be applying more resources, maybe we should be particularly indicating that we are concerned for underage vaping, and the mechanism to do that was to step up the compliance monitoring around underage vaping.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EParts of the bill attended to this\u2014looking at online self-identification, making sure that they truly were over 18 years\u2014but there was more that could be done. We could have sent that signal to communities, to schools, and to principals that \u201CYes, we\u2019ve heard. Yes, we believe. Yes, we agree. And so we\u2019re going to encourage the director-general to particularly have emphasis on under-age vaping\u201D\u2014and have emphasis on the two-minute bell that hasn\u2019t rung.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EBut what we\u2019re also saying here: this was a very important SOP that was gentle, it didn\u2019t ask much of anyone. It didn\u2019t cost much at all to say, \u201CCan we please apply ourselves to underage vaping?\u201D Schools, principals, the community are saying they\u2019re concerned, but this Government didn\u2019t want to know. It was way too much of a distraction from the sound bites that they want, from the virtue signalling that they want. They didn\u2019t want to do the real work. They didn\u2019t want to listen to schools and communities, and so they\u2019d marched off into this fanciful horizon that will not deliver a 2025 smoke-free goal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019re going to stand here today and, of course, we\u2019re going to oppose this. We\u2019re going to oppose it not because we disagree with the end points. I\u2019ve seen as much clinical harm from smoking as anyone in this House, but we do disagree with the pathway and the process, and we will not tolerate collateral damage when those goals could have been achieved with a different mechanism\u2014in fact, this Government\u2019s own mechanism. All we asked for was a change in schedule, and they said, \u201CNo.\u201D They can answer to small retailers. They can answer to communities when small retailers leave. This will be part of your collateral damage that you will answer for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThis bill is flawed; this bill will not achieve the 2025 goal. We believe in that goal; we want to get there. This is not the pathway to get there. We have an alternative proposal; we have a plan. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00222213ca6cb7f643e98a06f9c13f71e922\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222213ca6cb7f643e98a06f9c13f71e922\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E M\u0101l\u014D e lelei, Madam Speaker. I rise to take a very brief call in support of this legislation. Can I acknowledge Associate Minister Verrall for her leadership in this space. Can I acknowledge colleagues on the Health Committee\u2014which was able to scrutinise this piece of legislation\u2014along with the advice of officials. Can I also acknowledge the many, many, countless submitters that participated in this process\u2014individuals and collectives who care about the wellbeing and future of their wh\u0101nau and of generations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve made contributions previously, so the only changes are tweaks through the committee of the whole House stage, in terms of what the bill looks like before the House today. But this piece of legislation will take steps to prevent deaths, which are\u2014let\u2019s be honest\u2014largely and hugely inequitable for our M\u0101ori and Pasifika communities, and so this is a great step forward. I am very proud to commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u002292f7862d2e4c4781903e6ba6ab0ee411\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292f7862d2e4c4781903e6ba6ab0ee411\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY (National\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, look\u2014took me by surprise, a Government MP couldn\u2019t even speak for the full 10 minutes on his own bill. And I\u2019m not surprised. Isn\u2019t it\u2014getting near the end of the year\u2014just an absolute shambles as this Government crawls towards the end of the year? But there was one quote I noticed today: I quote, \u201CI feel I am better suited for government than opposition\u201D\u2014Jamie Strange, Labour MP from Hamilton East. Because he\u2019s been at the front line of the political war for the last six weeks, and he knows how the tide is turning. \u201CI feel I am better suited for government than opposition \u2026\u201D\u2014it says it all, really. Good on him for standing up and being honest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a lot of crossover, in that honest statement today from Jamie Strange, to the bill we\u2019re discussing today. A bill that is filled of missed opportunities; a bill that speaks to an arrogant Government that knows best. Full of sound bites and virtue signalling, but when you look deep into the public policy aspect of this bill it is hugely lacking. The flaws that my learned colleague Dr Shane Reti spoke about in the first reading clearly outline why National will oppose this bill in its third reading. And here we go, another example of Dr Shane Reti, who, on his own, has put a compelling argument forward and a credible alternative, and gifted it to the Government, who turned it down. Shades of months ago, when the Government was scrambling and struggling to put legislation together for the medicinal cannabis bill, and Dr Shane Reti put his own framework together that was widely acclaimed by the health community. Here we have, again, another issue with this Government that just won\u2019t listen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EAs Dr Reti clearly outlined, the National Party agrees with the end goals. In fact, to a point, we actually even agree with the three policy levers of reducing retail shops, denicotisation, and making it illegal for a certain cohort of New Zealanders born after 2009 to buy cigarettes. But where we differ on this side of the House is the order of those three levers. Why are we sending the sacrificial lambs\u2014our small-business owners\u2014in first? Ones that have been under the pump for several months due to the soft-on-crime Government who are facing the voracity of the increased crime in New Zealand. And now, through the sound bites and the virtue signalling, they are put up first to lose their livelihoods. Under this bill, potentially 6,000 small retailers will be reduced to 600. All we\u2019re saying is, \u201CYep, that\u2019s a lever you can use, but why not pause? Why not use one of your other policy options first?\u201D\u2014denicotisation. Because if reducing the nicotine in cigarettes gives us the ability of reaching the smoke-free goal of 2025, of less than 5 percent of New Zealanders smoking, then why would we not try that first? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EWe still haven\u2019t had one compelling reason from this Government. One of the reasons we don\u2019t have any compelling reasons is because they get up and do 90-second speeches. Welcome to being a Government backbencher in an unpopular Government, where the whip just says, \u201CI\u2019m not worried you\u2019ve been up all night preparing your 10-minute speech\u2014we want to rush this bill through. It\u2019s not the best; we\u2019ll just get it through. Ninety seconds\u2014just go for it.\u201D And to think that these MPs, two years ago, were in the electorates, you know, saying to their constituents, \u201CI\u2019ll work hard for you.\u201D you know? And what they call that is a lion in their electorate, but a lamb in Wellington. Because they won\u2019t stand up for their electorates and they won\u2019t do the right thing. So I look forward to the Government MPs going back to their small-business owners, going back to their dairy owners, who are under a lot of pressure at the moment to say, \u201CYep, there was another policy lever open to us: denicotisation. We could have done that first, but we chose not to.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EAnd you can\u2019t say the science stacks up, because what was very interesting in the first reading of this bill was how much international coverage this bill got. And fair enough, too. I mean, it\u2019s quite experimental. I don\u2019t have any problem with New Zealand leading the way and I think we\u2019ve got to try things. We\u2019ve got to be flexible, we\u2019ve got to be responsive, and we\u2019ve got to be reflective, but it just doesn\u2019t make sense, when you sequence those three policy levers, why the current Government is so stubborn about closing down our small-business retailers first. Why would you not try denicotisation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EThen there is the other issue around the gaps we\u2019ve now got in this bill, because there was a real opportunity to address some of the issues about vaping we have in New Zealand. I personally think for those who smoke and have the ability to transition to vape, it\u2019s a fantastic solution for them. It\u2019s great, and for many it\u2019s been the only solution that has worked when they\u2019ve tried several mechanisms for getting off tobacco smoking. The problem we do have in New Zealand, though, is there are a number of young people who haven\u2019t smoked\u2014traditionally, tobacco first\u2014going straight on to vaping. I\u2019ll challenge any MP in this House that hasn\u2019t heard of, or been approached by, a parent who\u2019s really concerned why underage kids are getting access to vapes at the vape stores in our towns and in our cities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EAnd this was an opportunity to put in\u2014again, Dr Shane Reti wrote it all out for the Government. These guys have got thousands of officials, and one astute doctor writes better policy than their thousands of officials. Because he knows what\u2019s right, and that\u2019s why he did it. So why did we not tighten that up for young kids who are getting access to vapes? I\u2019ve tried to address it in the small town I live in, and the police just basically said, \u201CToo many bigger priorities at the moment, Matt. We\u2019re not going to be able to focus on that.\u201D This bill could have gone part of the way to do that, as well as enabling, through legislation, a view on proximity by the director-general for future vape shops? And you might ask, \u201CWell, has a Minister tried to muddy the waters through the committee of the whole House stage?\u201D Well, the similarities between proximity of vape shops and reducing from 6,000 to 600 for tobacco shops\u2014very different. It\u2019s not retrospective; proximity for vape shops was growth for the future. We had an opportunity\u2014we\u2019ve had several opportunities through the course of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EWe have a hard-working future health Minister. And boy, I\u2019ll tell you what, the state our health system\u2019s in at the moment, especially for those people who go into our emergency departments, wait longer than six hours than they did under a National Government, and then leave because they can\u2019t get seen\u2014they can\u2019t wait till Dr Shane Reti\u2019s the health Minister, to bring back targets into our health system, and to bring back a health system that actually delivers. When you listen to Dr Shane Reti, it\u2019s very clear from his speech that he\u2019s focused on the outcomes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s very clear that if we\u2019re going to reach Smokefree 2025, the three policy levers we are debating in the third reading this afternoon are ones we\u2019re happy to support. It was how you would deploy those three policy levers and what we\u2019re doing now is setting up our small-business owners, our dairy owners, our retailers\u2014all members of our local communities\u2014and they\u2019re going to have to front it. They\u2019re going to have to front it with their families and do the heavy lifting when denicotisation could have been the lever\u2014it could have been the one that drove it down. As Dr Shane Reti clearly pointed out, we could have reviewed it and gone from there. But another example of a Government that\u2019s stubborn, has missed opportunities, and is arrogant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u00226fe8073bc9ee4fc399af2fac7529b676\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226fe8073bc9ee4fc399af2fac7529b676\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Every year, 4.5 thousand people die from smoking, so we can continue to talk about it ad nauseam\u2014as my colleague Matt Doocey has just ably demonstrated\u2014or we could actually do something about it. Ten years ago, the Government set a goal that by 2025, fewer than 5 percent of New Zealanders would be smokers, and this bill is the bill that intends to achieve that goal and improve the health and the health outcomes of New Zealanders. And it\u2019s really disappointing that National aren\u2019t supporting this bill\u2014they say that they support the concept of smoke-free; they\u2019re just not willing to do anything about it, and that sounds familiar, doesn\u2019t it? But on this side of the House, Labour knows that this is the right thing to do; it is a bold piece of legislation, it is world-leading\u2014the three elements of this bill work together in a way that will see it be successful, and on that basis, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u002217020b0bbbac42ff80d7849d60ab08cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002217020b0bbbac42ff80d7849d60ab08cb\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. I used to think before I came to this place that this is where we would debate issues and their substance with evidence and really thrash it out, and when it comes to drug policy\u2014all drug policy\u2014I\u2019ve been really let down by that hope. I actually want to allude to some of the first reading speeches that we heard from National Party MPs. Matt Doocey was one of them. He got up and said, \u201CThe National Party back evidence-based approaches to drug harm reduction.\u201D I said at that point in time, and it was recorded in Hansard, that I will be raising that with the National Party every opportunity that I get, because what we have here in this proposed legislation, which will go through its third reading tonight, is a response to a substance which can cause harm. So, substances, whether they be alcohol or cannabis or tobacco, we can recognise them from a health approach and say, \u201CWell, this substance obviously, when ingested by the consumer, has X, Y, Z impacts.\u201D When it comes to tobacco, we\u2019re seeing approximately 13 New Zealanders die every single day from smoking or from second-hand smoking. So we have to say that substance very obviously can cause harm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EWe then have to ask the question, well, how do we go about reducing that harm with a legislative framework that incorporates public health\u2014not just the health-based approach but the public health approach, which contemplates the communities that people are living in, the resources that they have access to to wean off of their addiction, and all of those other really critical surrounding circumstances that are necessary to deal with that issue. I think as all of us in this place can probably acknowledge, criminal prohibition of substances has never got rid of those substances, which is why it is so important that we have those alternatives, like, for example in this legislation, the likes of vaping, which others have acknowledged doesn\u2019t come without its own harms, and we\u2019re starting to see a proliferation of those harms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo I just really wanted to address that point and also to speak to those Supplementary Order Papers and those ostensible solutions that were waved around by Dr Shane Reti. I\u2019ve got a lot of respect for and have collaborated with Dr Shane Reti on a number of things, including the likes of the medicinal cannabis legislation which went through this House a few years ago now, but as we\u2019ve very thoroughly canvassed in the committee of the whole House stage\u2014and it\u2019s available out there for anybody who\u2019s listening along at home who does want to go and look at this stuff\u2014those proposals, those Supplementary Order Papers, largely were unworkable and they did not do what they said on the tin.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ce2a4d9d6ca4d42bcd2482545682684\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Sorry to interrupt the member, but we are in the third reading, and any matters dealt with in the committee are now in the past. So I\u2019ll ask the member to address what is in the bill post committee of the whole House stage at its third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204f0b13feec8496693ea69834a9299a3\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK\u003C/span\u003E: All right, OK. So, yeah, moving forward, then, we had throughout the process of this legislation, obviously, as reflected throughout the debate that others have raised with regard to the contributions of Dr Reti, that, actually, within the director-general requirements in this legislation there is the opportunity to do precisely those things that he was speaking to, around, for example, consideration of proximity of vaping shops and the concentration of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EBut let\u2019s come back to the core point, the core issue, the kaupapa, that it is that we are debating tonight, that is, of course, the third reading of this legislation, which does contain a range of novel measures to try and tackle that really hard core, that final, kind of, part of New Zealand that is still struggling with getting off of their addiction to tobacco, because as we heard from the many submitters at the Health Committee, tobacco, perhaps unlike most other drugs\u2014alcohol, for example\u2014is a substance that most of its users want to stop using, quite actively. What we know is that there are obviously measures, which it\u2019s interesting to hear, and I\u2019m glad to hear, the likes of the National Party agree with as well\u2014that denicotinisation will go a long way towards reducing the attractiveness and the addictiveness and, basically, not satiating that addiction that people have to tobacco and therefore helping them to get off of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EI also just wanted to note, as I haven\u2019t been able to say so fulsomely at other points throughout this debate at each reading, that we really do need to shout out to the officials here, because they were phenomenal. I noted at the end of the committee of the whole House stage\u2014not alluding to that, Madam Speaker, but at the end of that stage, we were left with some presentations from other members in this House that the officials hadn\u2019t done their job. The officials did their job very diligently, and they were phenomenal for the members who did turn up and did engage in that process. So I want to thank the Minister and the Health Committee, very diligently chaired by Dr Tangi Utikere, because throughout that process of collaboration, both with the Minister prior to the legislation coming to the House and through the Health Committee, some really core things that were critical to the Greens were progressed in this legislation and reflected throughout it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThe most important thing is that we didn\u2019t end up picking up on, particularly, those really problematic kind of consequences of a criminal prohibition approach to substances, like we\u2019ve seen, for example, under the Misuse of Drugs Act. This legislation does not create a new criminal framework; it creates a new kind of course of civil fines that are available for people. I think, as we actually discussed quite robustly inside of my caucus, it is really important to note that in certain circumstances where we do see that people, you know, at the more structurally marginalised end of our communities who receive these fines, they can end up escalating, effectively, into criminal charges if they are not paid. But importantly, again, this legislation and the new regime does not target those users; it is very much targeted on sale and supply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EImportantly, as well, we do have the containment of\u2014and this is something which we achieved through the select committee\u2014a review, a review that will be really important for reviewing the efficacy of some of these particularly novel measures. There is, of course, also the capacity inside of this legislation for the likes of growing your own, if somebody does want to go out of their way to go through the process of growing and processing their own tobacco, for some reason.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThe thing that excites me the most personally in having really gone through the weeds of this legislation is the testing regime and the licensing regime around, kind of, approved products and approved retailers, particularly the testing regime for vaping. We know that there are a number of products out there that are not what they say they are, so that approved process for products is going to be really important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EBut just in my final few minutes, I did want to note that there is, of course, more to do, which I think all of us in this House have also noted. To that effect, back on the hobby horse of the cigarette filters, cigarette filters, as reflected in the Health Committee report, they do not reduce the harm of smoking tobacco. They are a faux harm cessation device, and all they have basically done is serve to make people think that the product that they\u2019re consuming is safer, but all they do in reality is make the product more palatable, in turn being littered all across our cities and flowing out into our moana. I was out, actually, with Sustainable Coastlines just yesterday and we were picking up just for 20 minutes some litter around the Wynyard Quarter area in Auckland Central, and in that 20 minutes we found dozens and dozens of these cigarette filters, which are terrible for the fishies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThe other thing is, of course, vaping. All of us have said we want to do more on vaping, so what does that actually look like, because, again, as we\u2019ve noted, there is in the regulatory powers for the Director-General of Health the ability to set, for example, the likes of, as Matt Doocey was putting forward, proximity requirements, or, rather, not having dense proximity of vaping outlets. But I think it sounded like we had some form of consensus in the House to look towards perhaps phasing out disposable vapes, because disposable vapes tend to be cheaper, they tend to be a lot easier for our young people to get hold of as a result of also being cheaper, but they also tend to fool people into thinking that they\u2019re not starting an addiction, and they also tend to explode in our rubbish tips and landfills\u2014so, once again, a massive environmental hobby horse for us in the Greens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EI also think, and I\u2019ve said as much to the Minister, that it is really critical that we\u2019re not just seeing this legislation pass as it is but also, again, as canvassed in other readings, that there is some serious resourcing that is given to particularly the cessation programmes that are already doing phenomenal mahi out there in our communities, particularly, as we heard at select committee, for our M\u0101ori and particularly our Pasifika organisations who are doing this work on the ground.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EJust finally, I want to thank all of the submitters and all of the advocates, and Tiger and her mum. We read out Tiger\u2019s contribution to the Health Committee in the House, obviously, during the second reading of this bill, and what we had at Health Committee was some incredible young people, some incredible tamariki and rangatahi, the likes of the HashTags as well, who are making the case for a healthier future. Our young people want this, the people who are currently addicted want this, our communities want this, and we have the opportunity to achieve it, albeit with some novel measures that are going to require constant updating, reviewing, and resourcing. All we in the Greens ask for is some logical consistency when it comes to drug harm reduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8bea3f117e34c30bb37c1b85c1651cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8bea3f117e34c30bb37c1b85c1651cf\u0022\u003EBROOKE VAN VELDEN (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on behalf of the ACT Party and my caucus colleagues in opposition to the third reading of the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products (Smoked Tobacco) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EWe stand opposed to this bill because it\u2019s a bad bill and it\u2019s bad policy\u2014it\u2019s that straightforward and simple. There won\u2019t be better outcomes for New Zealand; there will be worse outcomes for New Zealanders, because we need to look at what the effects\u2014the true effects\u2014of this law will be on our communities and our people within our communities. That\u2019s because when you create a law, you need to look at the costs and the benefits, and you also need to ask the question of \u201CWell, what will happen next from us passing this law; what will be the flow-on effect of this law?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003ENow, this law says that it has the goal of reducing smoking in New Zealand. That\u2019s a nice goal and it sounds nice in theory, but the devil is in the details. Nobody wants to see people smoke\u2014I don\u2019t want to see people smoke\u2014but we live in reality and we know that it happens, and some people will smoke. This bill, rather than helping our communities, is simply nanny-State prohibition that will cause more problems in our society because, in reality, the effect is it will create a large black market, it will kill off our community dairies, and it will increase illegal activity and harm in our communities. So the ACT Party believes that it\u2019s a poorly thought-out, feel-good policy that sounds nice in theory, but it comes with huge downsides, and I want to go over a few of those in detail with the time that I have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EThis bill has three policies within it to bring about the goal of reducing smoking in New Zealand. So starting with the first goal to significantly reduce retail availability by restricting sales of smoked tobacco products to retail outlets approved by the Director-General of Health. There are around 6,000 community retailers that currently have the ability to sell cigarettes, amongst all of the other types of goods that they sell. This bill will reduce the number of retailers that can sell cigarettes and smoked tobacco products to 600. That is a huge reduction. It\u2019s estimated that around 80 percent of these retail businesses will go out of business\u2014they will close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003ELet me tell you a little bit about some of these retailers, because I\u2019ve had a lot to do with them in recent months. Some of our retailers in our communities have faced the hardest time in New Zealand. They are constantly being attacked, they\u2019re constantly being robbed, they\u2019re at threat of ram raids, they have a threat of being attacked, working in their own shops, and it\u2019s not good that in our community we have anybody going to work who feels like they might get attacked just for doing their jobs in the local community. That\u2019s not OK. But we have a lot of retailers who get up, they work hard, and they\u2019re just trying to do their best to serve their local community, and that\u2019s really tough to see.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EBut, on top of all of that, on top of all of the crime that they have, the Government is now coming along and saying, \u201CForget about all that hardship that you already faced; we want to put you out of business. We want the ability to pick and choose which one of you will be able to survive into the future.\u201D It\u2019s not fair. It\u2019s not the Kiwi way. We have community retailers who won\u2019t be picked and they will find it really hard because this bill is anti-competitive. You know, if they\u2019re not able to sell cigarettes or smoked tobacco products, that\u2019s not just that cigarette or smoked tobacco product that they\u2019re not able to sell; it means that that customer, who would have come in to buy that good, now won\u2019t come in to buy the bread or the milk or the water bottle or even the newspaper that might have come alongside it\u2014all of that business now goes to their competitor. So it\u2019s not just the effect of not being able to sell the cigarettes; it\u2019s not being able to sell all of those other goods that people buy when they\u2019re in the shop as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003ESo I believe that\u2019s disrespectful. It\u2019s disrespectful for the way that we go about doing business in New Zealand, and it\u2019s disrespectful for the hard-working Kiwis who want to serve their local communities. It is wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EBut the second part of this policy is that, even worse, on top of all the crime, it puts a bigger target on some of those retailers, who have been affected by crime and who have been affected by ram-raiders, because now there\u2019s a smaller pool of them to be targeted. I think that is going to be a terrible consequence of this bill. It also means that it will lead to a larger black market because, you see, a lot of people like accessibility. They like to know that they can pop down to their local shop and they can get what they need when they need it. Now, if you\u2019re moving a store further and further away from someone, they either have the ability to drive further, take a bus even further, or walk further, or they can go to their local gang member and get it from there. They can get it around the corner. And that is what will happen. Illegal activity will increase. Because you know who\u2019s smart? Criminals. They know that this is wanted in their communities and they will be there, arms wide open, providing illegal cigarettes on the black market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EThe second point that I want to talk to is reducing the appeal and addictiveness of smoked tobacco products by setting a limit on the quantity of nicotine and enabling limits or prohibitions to be set on other constituents. This creates a radical reduction in the amount of nicotine content within each cigarette, and I think there are people in our communities who are addicted to cigarettes. The effect will be that those who smoke and are addicted, and who can least afford it, will spend more on their habit because instead of having one cigarette to get their hit, they\u2019ll have two\u2014they will increase how much they\u2019re smoking. The effect of that is that if they\u2019re smoking more cigarettes to get the same hit, they\u2019re going to be increasing their tar intake, which is actually worse for their health. This will affect families who can least afford it the most because more of that money will be going to an increase in buying cigarettes for a habit rather than going to other costs of living that that family need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EThe second part is the alternative\u2014they don\u2019t smoke more cigarettes for their habit, they once again go to the black market to find exactly what they were looking for originally. I hope that Customs and our police are ready for the increase in illegal activity that will happen. We are going to see more illegal cigarettes come through the borders, through customs, and through containers than we\u2019ve ever seen, because people will want these products and the gangs will be there to give it to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003ENumber three is preventing young people and future generations from ever taking up smoking by prohibiting the sale of smoked tobacco products to anyone born on or after 1 January 2009. Now, if we know anything from history, it\u2019s that prohibition does not work\u2014it absolutely does not work\u2014because a great example is drug law in New Zealand. You know, we have a lot of illegal substances in our communities and we say we don\u2019t want young people using pills at festivals. We know it happens, and we know people supply it to them. This is the same thing. Prohibition doesn\u2019t mean that the problem goes away; it just shifts to the black market. It\u2019s really that simple. A ban on a problem does not make it disappear; it will increase criminal activity in our communities and make us less safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003ESo who are the losers out of this policy? Well, it\u2019s the dairies and the people in our community who want to serve our local communities; it\u2019s businesses, knowing that the Government thinks it\u2019s acceptable to pick and choose winners and to have bureaucrats sitting in Wellington decide who the winners of a business environment should be, rather than the local community; and it\u2019s all New Zealanders. New Zealanders are worse off, knowing that the Government restrict business activity in New Zealand\u2014they cannot see the flow-on effects of the policy, which will increase harm in our communities, yet they create feel-good laws that actually make us worse off. The winners of this policy are the crims and the gangs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022edf99c071356440999a012fbdee24800\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022edf99c071356440999a012fbdee24800\u0022\u003EDr ANAE NERU LEAVASA (Labour\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. To that last speaker, Brooke van Velden, my son would say to me, \u201CWhat a bunch of baloney\u201D. That was so hard to listen to, and the outcomes that she was speaking to, I would say, as a clinician still working in South Auckland at our medical clinics\u2014the outcomes we would see with this bill is less patients coming in with less respiratory conditions, less cardiac conditions; it is long-term conditions that result from smoking. M\u0101ori and Pacific and vulnerable populations that have long-term effects from the smoking\u2014this bill would make a huge difference for our communities. So I\u2019d say to the last speaker that is just totally incorrect what that speaker was saying. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EI just want to acknowledge the Minister, the select committee, and the submitters: the M\u0101ori and Pacific organisations that came through, ProCare, the primary health organisations, the medical, the paramedics. They came through and said their bit about this bill that would make a huge difference to our vulnerable communities. And I want to say a huge mihi to our organisations that are up there: thank you so much for your advocacy, your research, your mahi in this space, to help push this bill through and draft it to where it is today. Malo le tautua, malo le tauivi. And on that note, I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f608fc15caf84eada6522eefc590d9be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f608fc15caf84eada6522eefc590d9be\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Penny Simmonds\u2014five-minute call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u0022684dae6813b242699f848ebabefeea26\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022684dae6813b242699f848ebabefeea26\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to start by saying what a disgraceful and disrespectful display it was from the Minister in her opening speech with her personal attack on National\u2019s health spokesperson, Dr Shane Reti\u2014Dr Reti, who has such credibility as a medical practitioner, such credibility as a medical researcher, and such commitment to the health of M\u0101ori and all New Zealanders. For this Minister to have spent her time personally attacking him for trying to work in a bipartisan way to make this bill much better and much more effective was arrogant and shame on her. It reflects very badly on her.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ENational, I want to reiterate [Interruption]\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022830313b3bab0491f85e69178f9d34518\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Tone it down\u2014bring it down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c6c6eea1d704eadb2a34637345be50a\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: I want to reiterate that National absolutely supports a smoke-free agenda and we are proud to have established the 2025 smoke-free target. But this bill will not get to that target. It won\u2019t get there because it doesn\u2019t follow the science and it doesn\u2019t follow the international research. The Minister even confirmed that when she said that the first initiative of reducing the number of outlets had much uncertainty to it, but it was the easiest one to do. It was the easiest one for this Government to do to virtue signal and to make an announcement, but don\u2019t worry too much about whether it\u2019s going to work or not. And that is this Government to a tee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ESo Dr Shane Reti tried to do the work to make this bill more effective to try and get to those targets. One of the earlier Government speakers said National wouldn\u2019t do anything. Well, how they could accuse National of not being prepared to do anything when Dr Shane Reti came up with the Supplementary Order Papers that would have given this bill a chance of being effective\u2014he picked up on the international research that was going to be the most effective part of it. He urged this Government to pick up on putting the schedule away and relooking at the ways in which it might have been more effective and cause less harm. But the thanks he got was a personal attack from a Minister on somebody who has such integrity\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f21d2f3d7e6d4447b9f92a47f3c02167\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Does he?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022014e342c479846a88daa4c15dc059f3c\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and it will come back to haunt her. Well, that\u2019s a very big call for the Minister to be doubting another member of Parliament\u2019s integrity. So it\u2019s disingenuous of this Minister to have been so scathing of Dr Reti, when he sought to improve this bill, he sought to make it more effective, he sought to give it a chance of meeting the targets that we agree with, but she turned her back on any sort of bipartisan work on this bill, and she chose instead to mock him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ESo we have in full flight the arrogance of this Government: the fact that they know best, that they were prepared to ignore Local Government New Zealand and the laws that they had passed trying to regulate the sale of vaping products. They told the local authorities that they didn\u2019t know what they were doing. This Minister knows best, she knows all. The local government, councils, can just take a running jump. She will do what she likes in their community. She told the community dairies and small businesses that, again, she doesn\u2019t care what happens to them. She cares much more about her virtue-signalling announcement that will give her a bit of airtime in the media. She doesn\u2019t care how much she kicks those small business owners when they are down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00225c9c28f7df9b492c8660f9e598a57a1d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c9c28f7df9b492c8660f9e598a57a1d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4b7ee07effc4c478d02584598f7d186\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou e te Whare. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022610b2cbbf53146fbbeab15d32d406d16\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccec279a6e124219848e8ef427b6e62c\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a very, very loud Whare this evening. I rise on behalf of Te Paati M\u0101ori to speak to the third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea2c08c2b01c4311be5fabe7477a4742\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Debbie Ngarewa-Packer\u2014five-minute call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u0022144766f4ee834159958fa77a9d90c2de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022144766f4ee834159958fa77a9d90c2de\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te Paati M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou e te Whare. It\u2019s a very, very loud Whare this evening. I rise on behalf of Te Paati M\u0101ori to speak\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223e8049a504245559a099108269ddd05\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Debbie Ngarewa-Packer\u2014five-minute call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d60833465714ab9a29e356d5f819988\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you; I\u2019d already started.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200f18ac6b81a4f8ead3e0cb77a1e2824\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: I know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022535050f74fa940b4ac8fe2d53d96f963\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER\u003C/span\u003E: I appreciate that. I was getting a bit worried I\u2019d missed my turn!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003ESo, just to re-emphasise, I rise to speak to the third reading of the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products (Smoked Tobacco) Amendment Bill. We support this bill, so I\u2019ll get that out of the way in the first sentence. [Cheers across the House] Thank you. We acknowledge the Government for continuing the work of Tariana Turia and Hone Harawira and the kaupapa M\u0101ori health advocates across the country. Te Paati M\u0101ori are extremely proud of our founders who paved this way, and I guess it\u2019s also something that we\u2019ve been fighting for, for decades: to reduce tobacco in Aotearoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EIt must be acknowledged just how successful it\u2019s been. In the year 2000, the daily smoking rate for rangatahi was 31 percent; today, it\u2019s only 5 percent\u2014I shouldn\u2019t say only, but it lowered down to 5 percent. It\u2019s easy to forget just how far we\u2019ve come in the last 20 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EYet we recognise we\u2019re still in a dangerous position as a people. More than 22 percent of M\u0101ori adults are daily smokers, well over double the general rate of the adult population. We know the harm that tobacco, alongside other drugs, continues to cause. That is why we support this bill and the vision to end drug abuse in our communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EIn particular, Te Paati M\u0101ori strongly support reducing retail availability, appeal, and attractiveness of smoked tobacco products for young people. The research is clear: these measures will go a long way to achieving continued decreases in smoking over the coming years. As I said in our first reading k\u014Drero, we need to look at this issue holistically and acknowledge that the drivers of drug abuse are poverty and marginalisation. We can never truly end drug harm in this country unless we eliminate poverty, unless we end homelessness, unless we put a stop to domestic and sexual violence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EThat is why we remain concerned with the Smokefree generation policy, which would prohibit the sale of tobacco products to anyone born after 1 January 2009\u2014in short, meaning anyone 13 years or younger will never legally be able to buy smoked tobacco products in their lifetime. Our concern is that this could promote the rise of a black market for tobacco products, leading to associated issues with crime, safety, and control of products for younger people. We acknowledge that the bill doesn\u2019t contain possession offences, but possession offences aren\u2019t the only charges that can cause harm for innocent people and undermine M\u0101ori communities. So supply charges could be used against older siblings or wh\u0101nau members who also look to share tobacco with younger wh\u0101nau members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EWe are confused with the decision to ban smoked tobacco products but to continue to allow nicotine vaping products. By allowing vaping products, Government is acknowledging that it would be irresponsible to completely ban tobacco products, as banning drugs simply doesn\u2019t work; yet, there is far too little research on the risks of vaping, and we believe it\u2019s irresponsible to codify vaping in legislation as a safe alternative to smoking when there\u2019s not enough evidence to conclusively say that it\u2019s safer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EOne of our key goals is reducing the attractiveness of tobacco products, as we said earlier. It\u2019s also important that Te Paati M\u0101ori place these concerns on record as everyone knows it is tangata whenua who will disproportionately suffer the health and social harms associated with the prohibition of drugs. We believe a review of the legislation will be needed to ascertain if these concerns come to pass. However, we acknowledge the balance that this bill strikes and the strong mitigating factors that help reduce the chances of the black market taking hold in our wh\u0101nau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EWe recognise the extraordinary leadership of our hauora champions and thank them for engaging with us on this kaupapa\u2014extremely engaging. We are confident in the Smokefree action plan and are grateful for the roadmap it lays down to eliminate tobacco harm, but, at the end of the day, this issue will be won or lost in the hearts and minds of our people. They have the power, and as we have seen over the last 20 years, they are using it. It is our role in this House to advance kaupapa that creates a social and legal environment that enables our wh\u0101nau to live happy and healthy lives so that drug abuse isn\u2019t even a feature of our reality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003ESo we, the members of Parliament in this place, have the power to do that, and we\u2019re quite happy to support that. We get on and let\u2019s use it. Kia ora r\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022689837db39f145c08e379d4fa344aa74\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022689837db39f145c08e379d4fa344aa74\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to be able to take a call on the third reading of this important piece of legislation. We\u2019ve heard calls from the other side that we need to do a cost-benefit analysis and we shouldn\u2019t pass this bill. And I would ask the question: what is more important than saving the lives of our children from the harms of tobacco smoking?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve had two people close to me die of lung cancer. They weren\u2019t smokers, but they lived lives surrounded by the harms of second-hand smoke. I don\u2019t want that future for my children, and I think that we deserve to give them the benefit of the doubt and use the science that we have and the evidence that we have to try and imagine a new world, a new New Zealand where second-hand smoke and smoking does not affect our most marginalised communities, make our people sick, and lead to preventable deaths. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI commend the Minister for bringing this important bill to the House and having the courage to imagine a better future for New Zealand without tobacco smoking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00223c01e4d89c7e44859959aaf1b8bb75c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c01e4d89c7e44859959aaf1b8bb75c0\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you very much, Madam Speaker, for the opportunity to speak on the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products (Smoked Tobacco) Amendment Bill in its third reading. I want to start off by acknowledging my personal experience in regards to the impacts of smoking on individuals. As a registered paramedic and a volunteer with St John who still actively operates on the front line, I\u2019ve attended many a call of patients who are in severe respiratory distress in regards to emphysema and also around chronic bronchitis. And that chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and the implications of that disease on our population\u2014particularly the elderly population for whom, I think, in those days smoking was commonplace\u2014is a significant consequence and a very distressing way in which an individual will die because, of course, that damage to the lung is irreversible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI want to also reflect on the fact that actually my grandfather, when I was a young child at the age of eight, I watched him die with emphysema as well. So those implications of watching the implications of smoking on people of which you may or may not know and the implications of that have led me personally to have never smoked in my life. And I reflect on that in terms of where we are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe reality, though, in regards to where we are today and looking forward, is different to where we were 20 years ago looking forward. And the implications in terms of those that are smoking today and looking forward to future generations are significantly\u2014day and night\u2014less than what they were in the past. I think a lot of the narrative this evening has been around this is going to save lives of our children and all of that type of stuff, and that\u2019s absolutely rubbish. The vast majority of children or young people that are smoking nowadays are vaping, and they\u2019re using vaping products; they\u2019re not using traditional tobacco smoked cigarettes. And those products are products that are absolutely and unequivocally linked to the lung disease implications which I\u2019ve just referred to. So this whole narrative around the fact that our young people and children are going to get caught up in this to the degree in which it was in the past is simply a fallacy. It is not the reality, and I think it\u2019s quite ingenious for those on the other side to be referring to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EWe also heard comments from one of the other members who has a medical background in regards to his experience in hospitals or in primary care in South Auckland. And absolutely I\u2019ve seen those implications as well in South Auckland in terms of a front-line aspect of that, but this is a generation that have smoked, for many of them, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years\u2014all their life\u2014in regards to that. That\u2019s not what we\u2019re looking at going forward from where we are today in terms of dealing with the final percentage of the people in a very small percentage that are smoking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti, our health spokesperson, is a general practitioner by training. He operates and works in Whang\u0101rei. Northland is an area which has both wide geographical variation, but also high levels of disparity and deprivation. And I think anyone in terms of that experience, having worked and operated in that part of New Zealand, would understand both the challenges of dealing with health challenges such as smoking, but more broadly the implications of that. So to hear the Minister on the other side in the opening elements of the opening speech in this bill undertaking personal attacks on a member who has such high standing in regards to his capability and competence in the health space is an absolute disgrace. But what it actually gives you an insight into\u2014and for those watching, just so they can get a bit of a feel of what\u2019s going on inside the Labour Party caucus at the moment, there is an absolutely \u201Clet\u2019s play the person, not the ball\u201D, right? They play the person, not the ball. And that is the degree of arrogance on that side, because this bill is a bill that at its heart is not going to improve and not going to achieve the outcome of that final mile of reduction in smoking for individuals that need that support. We\u2019re not talking about our young people in our schools that are currently vaping. This is about those that are dealing with the tobacco products.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EAnd we\u2019ve spoken, and Dr Shane Reti has put on the table to the Minister in a bipartisan manner, a mechanism and a pathway in which he believes, and is supported by the National Party caucus\u2014that we believe will achieve that outcome. We\u2019re not in this game to do virtue-seeking policy; there is no point in that. We are in the game in order to improve outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0a7a07ec6b642299462396bc4f3090c\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s your drug policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264825d45068b42309d6e3fa60ab95161\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: You can hear some of the comments from the other side. You see, you can hear some of the comments from the other side. And it\u2019s interesting, because in their contributions\u2014and for those that have been watching\u2014you\u2019ll see how long they actually took their contributions this evening, and most of them didn\u2019t even make 60 seconds. But yet they\u2019re quite happy when we stand up on this side of the House to articulate the narrative and rationale around why this bill will not deliver, to mock it, to make personal attacks across the House in regards to that. But, again, it simply reinforces a narrative that this is a Government that\u2019s on the ropes, this is a caucus that are ill disciplined, and they are struggling internally at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo back to this bill. The implications which we have particular issues with are in regards to the recommendation around the impact on retailers who are selling tobacco products. The reality is for these smokers who smoke\u2014and anyone who is addicted to nicotine knows if the shop at the end of the street doesn\u2019t sell it, that\u2019s not going to stop them from smoking; they\u2019re just going to find the product through any mechanism and any means. An addiction drives a desire to achieve that product over anything else, and that also includes going into the black market to achieve and obtain that product. They will stop at nothing in order to obtain that product. And simply the conversation around reduction from 6,000 retailers to 600 is absolutely not going to have any consequential impact in regards to reducing the availability and access of cigarettes to the people who are in most need of reducing their consumption. If anything, the only implication of that decision is going to impact on those hard-working retailers who are already under significant pressure and stress as a result of this Government\u2019s soft on crime approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe impact also in regards to the black market cannot be underestimated. We already know that significant quantities of illegal tobacco come in over our borders, through our ports predominantly, in a ratio of which we\u2019re probably only picking up one container out of seven containers of illegal cigarettes. That is the reality today in regards to the degree and scale of counterfeit tobacco products coming into this market on the black market. And most of that, the gangs will actually sell into the system and, as a result, those products are flowing through. So simply cutting out these retailers is simply creating another market\u2014an illegal market\u2014that will be ruthless in regards to taking advantage of those individuals that require that product at any cost, and they don\u2019t and will not conform to the regulations, and any of the compliance requirements around that, including the quality of the product or what\u2019s included within the product as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s what\u2019s at stake here. I think the element around reducing the nicotine in the cigarettes is the pathway in which we support in believing that that will actually make the material impact in order to deal with that last mile of smokers. That\u2019s evidence-based and supported in terms of that, and that is the implication and that is the action that will result in the outcome that we need as a country. So it simply bewilders me why the Minister is not willing to engage. I mean, take our political hats off. Good policy should be adopted by any party, and sensible policy that achieves outcome should be adopted by any party. And maybe I\u2019m just being naive with two years in this House, but the reality is that this Government are failing to listen to a pathway which will actually deal with the outcome that\u2019s in front of us, without putting in place the significant implications and negative consequences on business owners across this country that will absolutely be\u2014as I think Dr Reti noted previously\u2014the collateral damage in this conversation. And I feel sorry for those entities, particularly when it is going to have no significant impact in regards to the reduction of nicotine and tobacco consumption, which is the whole purpose of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo National will not be supporting this bill. We have put on the table an alternative policy of when we\u2019re in Government in 2023, then that\u2019s what we will adopt, and in the interim period, we will watch how this goes. This Government will use their majority today to ram this through at any cost, they\u2019ll tick the box, the Minister will do the virtue-signalling victory lap, but the reality is it\u2019s not going to deal with the underlying issues, so we do not support this bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022 data-id=\u002204050e33bcad49d199d5e27e0b524844\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204050e33bcad49d199d5e27e0b524844\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise to take a short call and to be the final speaker in the third reading of the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products (Smoked Tobacco) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EI heard speakers from across the House. This bill is not a \u201Cfeel good\u201D; it is a must do. It is a must do as we work towards the 2025 goal, specifically to reduce the retailers that are making this product available. We heard on the Health Committee, as members, the number of submitters in South Auckland who represented many of the community groups who are running the cessation programme, who are vulnerable community members and doing a lot of work in the motu. Tobacco is no good. This bill will help to bring forth healthier and better outcomes for our generations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EI want to, on that note, thank the submitters, thank the members of the Health Committee, and thank the community organisations that came forth and spoke with courage and bravery around why tobacco is no good. And on that note I also want to thank the Minister for her bold and courageous move. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b5ec86755772474c897e94ee37ed0a14\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products (Smoked Tobacco) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 76\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000565\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000566\u0022\u003E[Applause]\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00222b39c8fb7f004e899e9cb062cf9a4773\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b39c8fb7f004e899e9cb062cf9a4773\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! No, apologies to the gallery, but they must not be part of this debate, enthusiastic as they are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c0aae912f3fb4b1f8a4ca171879a6846\u0022\u003EElectoral Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228e6f7e330c3047248ccb58a8afbf493a\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022 data-id=\u00225feb9e775f2647a79daf3cdab5474295\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225feb9e775f2647a79daf3cdab5474295\u0022\u003EHon KIRITAPU ALLAN (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Electoral Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209eb9282edf7460ab78024ef0dec0dcc\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b36a8f9d81fd46a1a5c8d749257a9213\u0022\u003EHon KIRITAPU ALLAN\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Electoral Amendment Bill be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EThis bill adds an important building block to the foundations of our democracy by providing greater transparency and public disclosures of public donations, loans, and parties\u2019 annual financial statements. This is a much-needed and vital amendment to enhance public trust and confidence in our electoral system as we head into next year\u2019s general election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EThose in this House may have heard me say before that it is important for the public to know who butters our bread, and may wonder exactly what I mean by that. First and foremost, the public must trust that their elected representatives act in their best interests at all times, not in our own interests or in the interests of those who have provided funding for our political activities but in the interests of the New Zealand public that we represent, the public we are meant to serve first and foremost. We know that public trust is low right now. I\u2019ve mentioned a few times the recent Victoria University of Wellington survey which showed this lack of public trust. Many submissions to the select committee also indicated this lack of trust. This makes it clear that we cannot continue as we have before. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EOne of the best ways to strengthen public trust in our democracy is to provide New Zealanders with greater transparency about how well political parties and candidates are funded, and this bill does exactly that. It lowers the threshold for disclosing the identity of party donors from $15,000 to $5,000. It requires the identities of anyone who donates over $20,000 to a party during an election year to be disclosed within 10 working days. It also requires candidates to disclose some of the loans they receive for the very first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EAnother crucial improvement this bill introduces is the requirement for all registered parties to disclose their annual financial statements. This will provide greater transparency about all income sources for parties and acknowledges the crucial role political parties play in our democratic system. Making parties provide annual financial statements is important to ensure the public are equipped with the information they need to scrutinise how well parties are performing their role. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EThis bill clarifies that party donations include any donation made to a person or group of people if there are reasonable grounds to believe that such a donation was intended for the benefit of a party. The bill additionally now creates an offence for anyone who receives a donation and fails without reasonable excuse to transmit it to the intended recipient, being either a candidate or party secretary, within 10 working days, as the Electoral Act currently requires. These amendments address the risks identified in the recent High Court case relating to the New Zealand First Foundation. I want to thank the other parties in this House for the support that they have expressed for making these amendments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EFinally, this bill extends the eligibility of overseas voters to enrol to vote in the 2023 general election. The right to vote is one of our most fundamental rights, so it is hugely important to enfranchise New Zealand citizens and permanent residents overseas who have been affected by the impact of COVID-19 travel restrictions. I want to acknowledge those members of the Justice Committee who have diligently turned their hands, turned their eyes, and turned their ears to being custodians of this bill through the legislative process. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00224457474d10d04398ba1cf09e495fd46e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224457474d10d04398ba1cf09e495fd46e\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for me to leave the Chair for the dinner break and the House will resume at 7 p.m. this evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6.02 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224857e6f4c8c8468591c2348d57e8534c\u0022\u003EAmended Answers to Oral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b5f01453c293443d86db7988039939ec\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u002285b780ecc1b64de892c4a26ce4bd1edf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002285b780ecc1b64de892c4a26ce4bd1edf\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Speaker. I seek leave to make a personal explanation to correct an answer to a supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf4716be6bf540fa9f8cee1f298d124d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that action. Are there any objections?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa8da6aa27b644e4bb3535f7ac230898\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: In relation to question No. 11 from Simon Watts earlier this afternoon, regarding advice I received from officials on 22 November after Supplementary Order Paper 285 had been tabled in the House, to be clear on the scope of the advice\u2014which was: clauses should be included in the Supplementary Order Paper if entrenchment were to occur\u2014the advice noted that if entrenchment was to be effective, both clause 116 and Schedule 4 needed to be entrenched because clause 116 states that a divestment proposal may only proceed in accordance with Schedule 4. The advice was technical and I did not forward it on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dd078cf5e3074fc39b9d5c427db59611\u0022\u003EElectoral Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227b384fa16016472f844ff422874d3aba\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000589\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00225452472390714517b9540bfcafbda59b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225452472390714517b9540bfcafbda59b\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s not my pleasure, it\u2019s my duty, to speak on the Electoral Amendment Bill third reading, introduced by this Labour Government that has run out of ideas, it\u2019s tired, and it\u2019s heading towards the denouement with which it deserves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EFunnily enough, we heard earlier this week from the Prime Minister that she had come to the point where she was advising her Ministers that they needed to prioritise and they needed to go back over there\u2014what they\u2019re doing, their programmes\u2014and ask themselves if what they\u2019re doing, all the things that they\u2019re doing: are they actually helpful? And should they be prioritised? What are their priorities, and maybe they should just focus on it. That was her message to Ministers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWhen we think of the justice area, and we think of this as a bill coming from Kiri Allan indicating that this Electoral Amendment Bill\u2014which is focused on changing the rules with which parties are funded for campaigns\u2014is one of her priorities. Then we look at the justice sector broadly, and we think of the 500 percent increase in ram raids, we think of the chaos on our street, we think of youth crime out of control, we look at the 40 percent increase in violent crime in our communities, and the increased numbers of victims of crime, and we think of the long delays to justice and the courts system, and we think of those things that most normal people would think would be a priority for this Government in justice. Then we come to this bill, and it ranks alongside the hate speech and it ranks alongside the decision that the Government\u2019s going to introduce a bill to reduce the voting age to 16\u2014which nobody much agrees with\u2014and this one is around changing the electoral financing regime, so the rules of the games for how parties are funded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThey\u2019ve brought this to the House and they\u2019re trying to ram this through, against the opposition of the National Party and the whole Opposition, in fact. We\u2019ve had quite a few lectures about the importance of some kind of bipartisan support for electoral bills\u2014and, on this one, they\u2019ve chosen to ignore that and try and ram through a piece of legislation that skews the system, frankly, in the favour of Labour and the Greens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ENow, how does it do that? Well, it does that by fundamentally making it more difficult for parties to raise funds. Now, why is that a problem? It\u2019s because in a democracy, political parties need to campaign and that doesn\u2019t happen for free. You might have noticed, if you were living in Hamilton West recently, if you were driving around, you will find billboards stuck to people\u2019s fences and you\u2019ll find flashing billboards on intersections, and you\u2019ll see people walking around with T-shirts and they\u2019re handing out pamphlets\u2014and all those sorts of things cost money. So the question is: well, how do you fund that? There\u2019s a simple choice between, at one end, allowing people voluntarily to give money to parties that they support in order to fund them; or at the other end of the spectrum is what I think this Government wants\u2014and certainly what the Greens want\u2014which is that taxpayers fund political parties and they give them to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThey\u2019ve cloaked this in the argument that that will mean that people with money will have less influence. But what it means, fundamentally, is that incumbent parties will be protected from new players coming in and causing difficulties, because if it\u2019s a taxpayer-funded regime, it\u2019s much more difficult for new people to come in and disrupt things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s why we\u2019re fundamentally opposed to this legislation: because at the bottom, it\u2019s about making it more difficult for political parties to raise funds. Now, how does it do that? The main mechanism that it does that through is by reducing the threshold in which people are obliged to be publicly named as a donor to a party. Currently\u2014for the last 15 or so years, since the previous Labour Government\u2014the threshold has been $15,000 for a party donation. So if somebody were to donate $14,500 in New Zealand for the last 15 years, they don\u2019t have to put their name up in lights; they can do that anonymously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EIf you think in the context of a political party\u2019s fund-raising efforts, a major party that\u2019s going to stand in all the seats is allowed to spend about $3 million, or a bit more than $3 million, in a campaign-regulated period, three months before an election. So a donation of $14,000 would represent less than one-half of 1 percent of the amount that a party could spend. So the rationale that was brought forward by the previous Labour Government, under Helen Clark and others, was that they would have thought that\u2019s a reasonable threshold because it would be reasonably unlikely that a party would be completely overthrown and persuaded to follow a policy path by somebody that had donated less than one-half of 1 percent of what they were raising for the period of the election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s where it\u2019s been: $15,000. The world hasn\u2019t come to an end. There\u2019s been a few issues around political fund-raising over the last couple of years, not related to the threshold but related to people trying to cheat the system in theory\u2014or the allegation was that people were splitting up donations to donate a much larger sum by dividing that up between a number of people. So a total irrelevance to what\u2019s been discussed in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWhat this bill does is reduce that $15,000 to $5,000. There\u2019s been nothing put forward by the Government to say that this will make any particular difference. There\u2019s no rationale put behind it, other than to say that it will make it more difficult for political parties that raise their funds from people voluntarily giving them money\u2014because there is a large number of people who are happy to donate to a party but they don\u2019t want their names up in lights.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWhy would they not want their names made public? Well, I can think of a whole host of reasons. The most obvious one would be that they\u2019d be worried, if they happen to have contracts with Governments, that they might be discriminated against in some way or form\u2014that\u2019s a perfectly legitimate concern. They might also be worried that they might be targeted for complaints or criticism publicly. There\u2019s a whole host of reasons why people don\u2019t particularly want to have their names up in lights when they donate to political parties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo this bill reduces that threshold from $15,000 to $5,000. Surprise, surprise: most of the people who donate money in those groups are people who donate not to the Labour Party or to the Green Party. But it still leaves the fundamental issue: well, if you\u2019re going to make it more difficult for parties to raise funds through voluntary donations, how are they going to get their money? What the Greens are openly campaigning for\u2014and what the Labour Government is more sneakily campaigning for\u2014is a shift of the system away from donations from individuals voluntarily to fund parties, moving towards taxpayer funding of political parties. They don\u2019t admit it, but that\u2019s where this bill is taking the country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s why we oppose it. And most New Zealanders oppose it too, because they don\u2019t want to have their taxes seized off them to go to fund backroom staffers in the Labour and Green parties campaigning a way to continue in a Government that has promised so much and delivered so little and that\u2019s why they want to see change in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThat is why, ultimately, the last resort of a Government that is going down the gurgler is to start fiddling around with electoral laws, and that\u2019s what we\u2019ve seen over the last year or two: a Government that has lost its way, has demonstrated its inability to deliver anything that it\u2019s promised, and now what is it doing? Well, it\u2019s turning to fiddling around with the electoral laws to try and skew the system a little bit in its favour, to give itself a little bit of a push.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s why we oppose it. We don\u2019t agree with it, we\u2019re not going to support it, we don\u2019t support it, and we\u2019re not going to vote for it. Thank you, Madam Speaker. And, on that basis, I won\u2019t commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa83e5ad8d7340659e990890c3324c3b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa83e5ad8d7340659e990890c3324c3b\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E Democracy is one of the most faith- or trust-fuelled activities that there is, and because of that, we have an obligation to protect the accountability mechanisms and the transparency mechanisms around it. What we know from research from Victoria University and from the Ministry of Justice consultations is that there has been a decrease in the trust in that system, which is what this bill addresses, and it is really concerning that the Opposition don\u2019t appear to be prioritising these fundamentals of democracy. It\u2019s also really concerning that my colleague the Hon Paul Goldsmith doesn\u2019t seem to remember the number of submissions that we received and pored through at the Justice Committee, including a submission from the Privacy Commissioner, who, I will note, didn\u2019t talk about issues concerning privacy when it came to lowering the threshold, although he did address other issues. The Opposition speaker then talked about a taxpayer-funded system, which this bill does not address. This is a bill that is about actual unlawful influence and ensuring that there is public trust in our system. It is a good bill, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00220a4d76c60c4b4771941358fa9ca3cd44\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a4d76c60c4b4771941358fa9ca3cd44\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Like my colleague and friend the Hon Paul Goldsmith, I rise not with pleasure but with a sense of duty to speak about\u2014and, indeed, against\u2014the Electoral Amendment Bill. Paul Goldsmith has made tolerably clear our position on the bill at previous readings and again today, which is to say that we oppose it, and we oppose it for a number of reasons that I will outline and maybe expand upon a bit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EFirst of all, if we can just take a step back and consider what it is that we are doing here, we are talking about electoral law; we\u2019re talking about the rules of the game by which people in this House are elected, have been elected, and, we all hope and expect, in our respective cases, will be elected. These are the rules of the game that we play. We have a conflict of interest\u2014and it\u2019s inevitable, of course, that these things should be in the law of the land. They should be made by legislation; so it\u2019s inevitable that Parliament has to make the rules, so that we can manage the conflict of interest. But the way that we do that is by saying, \u201CWell, we can even out the particular interests that any given party or member has by saying, \u2018Well, as long as we can agree as nearly as possible on the rules of the game, at least there is an evening out of any particular prejudices\u201D\u2014and I don\u2019t mean that in the ugly sense, but particular inclinations\u2014\u201Cthat any of us might have.\u2019 \u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s why oftentimes\u2014actually, it used to be invariably the case that\u2014electoral law was regarded as a matter for bipartisan, or non-partisan, concern and agreement, failing which changes shouldn\u2019t be made. And, of course, we\u2019re seeing the opposite of that in relation to this bill. We\u2019ve seen, too, this bill being pushed through in time for the end of this calendar year, and therefore to be ready for election year, and to have particular rules in place from 1 January onwards. And, of course, that\u2019s by contrast with the electoral law review that the Government has commissioned in relation to lots of other aspects of electoral law and the interconnectedness of the issues that relate to electoral law\u2014for example, thinking about donations and ways that people can contribute to resourcing a political party. It\u2019s not in isolation, I would suggest, that we should review such matters when you think, well, you can also donate labour and other resources, and to treat that entirely distinctly from the subject of giving money\u2014which is, of course, the donations element as contained in this bill\u2014seems to be incoherent at best. These things should be considered as a whole. The whole electoral review should be able to take place as a coherent whole at one time. But, of course, this is being pushed through in time for the Government to be able to have an election conducted on terms that it considers best.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI will actually say, though, I do feel obliged to point out that one positive aspect of the considerations at the select committee\u2014and on which the Minister has also engaged well\u2014has been the fact that it is not intended to be, and it won\u2019t be, a retrospective law. So whereas initially there was a lack of clarity, in my view\u2014and certainly we sought that certainty to say, whatever the rules made in this law, they wouldn\u2019t apply to anything that was done before 31 December this year; so notwithstanding that a financial year for any given party might be a 12-month period going before 1 January of next year. But, nevertheless, we got that clarification, and that came out at the select committee. That was agreed and that change was made. So, actually, I do think it\u2019s fair to acknowledge that positive interaction, initially with the Minister, through my office via the written parliamentary questions process, but then also with the select committee. I know there were colleagues on the Justice Committee, permanent members no less, whom I was pleased to interact with on that point. And, of course, the officials provided good advice in that space, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EBack to the bill itself, and actually just acknowledging the submissions process\u2014and I didn\u2019t hear all the submissions, I\u2019ll be honest, and I didn\u2019t read all of them, but the ones that I did rightly acknowledged the balance that needs to be made between privacy, on the one hand, and transparency, on the other. I didn\u2019t actually see the submission by the Privacy Commissioner. I was quite interested to learn, in the contribution made by our colleague, just prior to mine, Vanushi Walters, that the Privacy Commissioner didn\u2019t raise any privacy issues in relation to the compulsory disclosure of political donations. I would have thought that would be a thing that any Privacy Commissioner should take very seriously and should at least raise, even if they were to say, \u201CWell, these concerns can be mitigated.\u201D To not raise privacy issues, if you\u2019re the Privacy Commissioner\u2014that seems to me a classic case of having one job and needing to do that well. But maybe there\u2019s a sort of joint effort across the Public Service, in relation to the Reserve Bank not doing its one job, either\u2014anyway, I digress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019ve heard, also, throughout this process, that the initial justification for bringing this legislation was the court cases that have now concluded, and they related to three political parties that are both inside this House now and outside this House. The argument was made, \u201COh well, the existence of this litigation, the investigation into whether the law has been followed or not, indicates that there is a problem.\u201D But, actually, of course, it\u2019s entirely possible to argue that the reverse is true, which is to say that the fact we\u2019ve got court cases means that, where the law isn\u2019t being followed, these matters are able to be brought to light. And, of course, you can\u2019t say with certainty one way or t\u2019other whether there are things that are out there that haven\u2019t been brought to light. That\u2019s in the nature of an uncertainty, and the difficulty of proving a negative is obvious, but, suffice it to say, I don\u2019t think there\u2019s enough justification for bringing forward this law on the basis simply that laws that were previously in place may or may not have been followed correctly. Of course, this is why we have a system where we can judge these things. And when I say \u201Cwe\u201D, of course it\u2019s not the people in this place who judge them, and of course that\u2019s as it should be. We have the rule of law, whereby we set the laws in a transparent way, those are applied, and to the extent that they\u2019re not followed, we have a judiciary that can speak to those, and so they have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s actually also worth taking a step back and just thinking about the starting point for this discussion. The presumption should be, ordinarily, that if a private citizen has property\u2014and, actually, I should say \u201Cperson\u201D, because that way we\u2019re not just talking about a natural person or a citizen; it might also be some manner of corporation. And, yes, that could be an evil big business, in the fevered left-wing imagination that forms part of the vast right-wing conspiracy! Or it might be a union or some other body corporate, but, in any case, a legal person that has resources should be able to do, roughly speaking, whatever they like with those. Of course, there are limits, and I think it\u2019s reasonable to have some transparency limits, some sort of disclosure regime, but it would be a red herring to suggest that we should have such a system\u2014and therefore that this bill needs to be introduced\u2014because, of course, we already have one. We\u2019ve got rules in place already. We\u2019ve got a line in the sand that the parties previously, most of the parties\u2014perhaps all of the parties; I\u2019m not quite sure, but certainly a super majority of the House, let\u2019s just say\u2014and I don\u2019t want to go down an entrenchment rabbit hole; I genuinely don\u2019t. But it\u2019s roughly been the case\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d2a774f55744f7eba96a5b943bb52ef\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, c\u2019mon!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b88f48abb6d548c996d71798dbc469b7\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014don\u2019t encourage me!\u2014that parties have agreed on where the lines should be drawn, the rules of the game. We all have to follow them. When we don\u2019t, there\u2019s a consequence. And so, with that presumption that we can do what we like\u2014except that there should be some limits, yes\u2014but there are limits, I think that\u2019s really the overall kind of backdrop that we need to consider with doing this, before we leap ahead to sort of arguing about where the lines should be, and so on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EBut, if we do want to get detailed, we can say, \u201CWell, the costs and the money involved is relatively little.\u201D And, with all due respect to our friends in the Green Party, I know very well what the member who will make a contribution for the Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand will say that it\u2019s big money, and it\u2019s US-style corruption and influence, and all that kind of thing. We have a completely different jurisdiction. We have completely different rules already. We don\u2019t have the same commitment to freedom of expression, and freedom more generally, as they do in accordance with the rules set, in their case, by the US Constitution, enforceable as that is. So, really, it\u2019s not an apple-with-apples comparison. The money involved in New Zealand is trifling. I think I\u2019m right in saying that the amount that an electoral candidate can spend in any given constituency is something like $26,200. I can never remember whether it\u2019s with or without GST; I should look that up some time in the next 12 months! But, in any case, if you think about the number of households in an electorate and if you were to send a letter to each one of them, or some sort of propaganda\u2014I mean, collateral\u2014through the post, at more than $1 or whatever the cost to send something by post now, that\u2019s your whole campaign.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI mean, we\u2019re talking very modest amounts, and, really and truly, this is not a matter of going down some sort of slippery slope to end up in Washington DC. Certainly, it\u2019s not a reason or an excuse to alter the fundamentals of our democracy, which is that transparency is important but so too is privacy, so too is individual freedom, property rights of all persons in this country. We\u2019ve got electoral law that should be applied to all, should be made by all, and should be for the benefit of all, and I don\u2019t mean political parties; I mean the people of New Zealand, to whom we are accountable. And, to echo the words of my friend Paul Goldsmith, public funding of political parties should not go ahead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022956cbd9e01e144db9f278676e1eb4c2d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022956cbd9e01e144db9f278676e1eb4c2d\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker, and thank you for the opportunity to give a quick call on what is a simple bill. It is a good bill, and that\u2019s why I support it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EBut I want to push back on one particular idea which members of the National Party have brought consistently through these readings, and it\u2019s that somehow the Labour Government is trying to change the way that we treat the comparison between donors and volunteers. Volunteers, who rock up to support their political party, whether that\u2019s on election day or whether it\u2019s in January to deliver some flyers\u2014those people, by their very nature, are not anonymous. This is legislation which evens up the rules and makes sure that people who don\u2019t choose to volunteer but do choose to make donations also do so with their names published, just like volunteers do. Their faces are out there and their names are out there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIf your way to participate in your democracy is with your labour and to get on the doors or phones, like I did when I was 15, you\u2019re doing that with your name on the public record, and I think it\u2019s appropriate that donors donating over a certain amount also publish their names. That\u2019s why I support this, and I would ask anyone doing this\u2014we\u2019ve heard on that side of the House that they don\u2019t want volunteers to be able to have that power. I say, fill a shift. Tell them that you\u2019re going to use your labour to volunteer for the political party of your choice. Get in touch with your field organiser and make a difference. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022 data-id=\u002241f6d1c16e304fb48aa406300434b5d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002241f6d1c16e304fb48aa406300434b5d4\u0022\u003EGOLRIZ GHAHRAMAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I feel like I was given a little intro by my friend cross the aisle there, but I will begin in speaking on this bill, as I always have at every reading, by saying that democracy is a fundamental human right, and it is, in many ways, the one right that underpins them all, because it\u2019s the right to have a say in decisions ranging from our education and health system to our justice system to our immigration system and the ways that those laws, the decisions in this House, so intimately impact on all of our other fundamental rights. So to get it right is important. To make it fair and inclusive and accessible is one of the most important things that we will do as a Parliament, and each Government successively gets to do if we pay attention. A modern, functioning democracy has to be responsive to changes in society. And, in this way, I think successive Governments have actually let New Zealand down. We have a privilege. We have the machinery of parliamentary political parties behind us in this House, and I think sometimes it\u2019s easy to forget that the rules weigh in our favour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard over and over again that political donations in New Zealand aren\u2019t a big problem. Well, to anyone who does say that, I say: let\u2019s step outside of what we think as standing politicians, as members of this House, and look at the independent reports and what the independent entities entrusted with speaking to electoral reform have told us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EThe Electoral Commission itself came to the Justice Committee, in its review of the last general election, and said that it\u2019s actually pretty hard to investigate donations breaches, because the limits are so high. So, yes, some cases end up in court. Yes, three out of the five parliamentary political parties last term did end up in some kind of trouble. But what we don\u2019t know is the other stuff, the stuff that goes under the radar, the stuff that\u2019s hard to investigate because the thresholds have been so high for so long in terms of anonymity, in terms of limits. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003ESo this bill brings down the anonymity threshold to $5,000 and the reporting requirements of donations to $20,000. My strengthening democracy bill suggested much lower thresholds of $1,000 and of $15,000. Now we have\u2014leaving aside the plea from the Electoral Commission itself\u2014the latest comprehensive study into donations schemes in New Zealand by Max Rashbrooke and Lisa Marriott. Independent academics who spoke to members of all of our political parties, our general secretaries, and our donors spent a year looking into this. And I would hope that members in this House go and look at that report, because it is a little bit chilling. We are unprotected. There are expectations by donors of access. Whether or not that\u2019s being delivered, there is an expectation that big money will get you political access in New Zealand, and, in many ways, it has. It\u2019s all detailed in there. Everybody\u2019s being open in their interviews and to the extent that they have been, even that is a little bit chilling. Their recommendation was $1,500 and $15,000. So this bill is pretty conservative in terms of the political landscape when it comes to donations in New Zealand. By the way, that\u2019s at doughnation.nz\u2014the full report\u2014spelt like \u201Cdoughnut\u201D. Money for Something is a report on political funding in Aotearoa New Zealand; an independent comprehensive report. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EI didn\u2019t hear Paul Goldsmith\u2019s contribution this time, unfortunately, but the last time he spoke on this, I think his contribution really encapsulated the fears and confirmed them. When I last spoke to the Minister of Justice on introducing an overall limit to political donations, which is not contained in this bill, she said, \u201CShow me where there might be a problem.\u201D And, of course, the donation report does show that. It firmly recommends a limit be placed on it. But I think Paul Goldsmith\u2019s contribution\u2014and I think maybe people should look that up\u2014where he went on and on at some length about how taking donations, or the ability of people to give donations, large donations, and anonymous donations, is about creating accountability for us as politicians\u2014he thought he was saying something about democracy being functional and working appropriately. But accountability to donors is not equality in our democracy. We have a one vote per person democracy, and some people can\u2019t afford to give big anonymous donations to hold politicians accountable for what they want and need. That\u2019s not cool. It\u2019s not a good argument for keeping donation levels high or keeping the anonymity threshold high. It\u2019s an admission. And I won\u2019t say what that might be an admission of, because it may be unparliamentary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EBut I\u2019ll correct one thing that Paul Goldsmith does also throw around, which is that it\u2019s Green Party policy to introduce public funding for political parties rather than donations. My very detailed bill that covered every electoral wish the Green Party had didn\u2019t have public funding as a policy in it. So I\u2019ll just let him know who spearheaded that campaign in Aotearoa New Zealand: it was the Rt Hon Jim Bolger a couple of years ago. He came out and said that, actually, we need to have public funding for political parties, because our donations laws are too loose and they leave us at risk. To say that we are not vulnerable to an American-style political system is to be naive. We know globally that cigarette companies, for years, held off having warnings on packets. We know globally that oil companies held off climate action. We know that we\u2019re in the midst of a biodiversity crisis and we\u2019ve barely got to a point of putting cameras on fishing boats because of a scandal related to political donations last term. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003ESo we know that this is a problem. We know that we\u2019re vulnerable. We have the Electoral Commission asking for this change. We have independent studies telling us we should go much, much further, and we have this bill. All I would say is that given we know we are vulnerable and that we need to go further and that a proper limit on political donations is what has been recommended over and over again by independent entities and experts, I would ask that the Government and this Minister include political donations in the electoral review that\u2019s going to be under way shortly. This issue is not done, and New Zealanders want to have a say in the way that our political system runs in terms of being independent from big money, and in terms of being inclusive and equal. So I commend this bill as a starting point to that reform.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u00220c8ef1065e1945129ffca245b87729ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c8ef1065e1945129ffca245b87729ca\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on behalf of ACT in opposition to this Electoral Amendment Bill. I want to speak tonight especially to the members of the Labour Party about the heritage and history and values of their party, a party whose constitution says that political power should be withheld or managed by regular free and fair elections, with universal suffrage. I want those Labour members to think about the likes of Savage and Fraser, Nash and Kirk and Rowling, Lange, Palmer, Moore, and Clark\u2014men and women who were committed to something bigger than them. They were committed to the idea of a liberal democracy in the South Pacific, and that put certain constraints on what they were prepared to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003ENone of those former Labour Governments would ever have dreamt of the arrogance of trying to entrench their own policies alongside our most basic democratic rights to vote, but this one did. I don\u2019t think any of those previous Labour administrations would have unilaterally rushed through laws that changed the rules of the game for the next election just in time to advantage themselves before they go to the polls again. This is a low point for this Labour Party. They are doing something that is against their own heritage, against the values of the men and women who have stood for Labour, who actually stood for liberal democracy, and wouldn\u2019t have dreamed of doing what this bill does today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EWhat does this bill do? Well, let\u2019s just deal with some of the better things that this bill does, because it does a few things, and they\u2019re not all bad. This bill requires that if somebody receives a donation to transmit to a political party then they must actually give the money to a political party that was nominated by the original donor; that\u2019s important. Why is that important? Well, people might like to ask a slightly less salubrious party without the same values and history of Labour\u2014that is, New Zealand First\u2014just why they had a foundation in which they put three-quarters of a million dollars of their money, and some of it may or may not have actually got to New Zealand First. People need to ask themselves why you\u2019d have a New Zealand First Foundation. This law means that if some other entity receives the money, they must actually give it to the intended political party, not exploit some loophole. ACT supports closing that loophole.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThis law also allows those New Zealanders trapped offshore due to COVID to come and have their vote without having been in the country in the last three years, and we welcome that. And people listening offshore, Kiwis stuck overseas who couldn\u2019t visit their country, who may not be able to vote because they couldn\u2019t come here under Labour\u2019s two-year border closure, well, when the time comes around to vote, you know what to do, and this bill means that you\u2019ll be able to give your party vote to ACT.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003ESo those are the good parts of this legislation, but there is another part, and here it is: it reduces the amount that a New Zealand citizen or a permanent resident who lives here can give to a political party without being publicly named. Right now, that amount is $15,000. Under this law, it will go down to $5,000. Why would the Labour Party do that\u2014unilaterally, by themselves; not with agreement about what the electoral rules should be by all concerned, for a free and fair election, like their party constitution demands? Actually, they\u2019re doing it by themselves, and they\u2019re rushing it through. They want to make sure that it gets done in time, that those rules are in place for the 2023 calendar year, which, as we all know, is an election year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EWhy are they doing this? Well, they tell us\u2014Minister Kiritapu Allan got up, Arena Williams got up, and they talked about trust. They talked about democracy. They say that they\u2019re going to build trust in democracy by unilaterally changing the rules of the game right before an election year. I don\u2019t think so. But what problem are they trying to solve? Well, it\u2019s actually a difficult one; I\u2019ll give them some credit. It is difficult because if the threshold is too low, then there will be few people who will give money, and political parties will find it hard to be funded\u2014they\u2019ll find it hard to get their message across. People upset with the direction of the country will find it hard to contribute and help people of like-minded views share their values and communicate to their fellow New Zealanders and win an election\u2014something we call democracy. So if it\u2019s too low, we\u2019ll know who all the donors are, but there won\u2019t be much democracy going on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EHere\u2019s the alternative. If it\u2019s too high, then it\u2019s true, you could have people giving significant amounts of money, enough to change the course of a political party or an election, and no one would know who it was. It is difficult to choose what that number should be. But nowhere in this debate or in any of the documentation has this Labour Party explained why the law should be $5,000 instead of $15,000. What they should have done is shown examples of people that gave between $5,000 and $15,000 who, was it known who they were, we would have greater trust in democracy. They haven\u2019t stood up and given one example, because there is not one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EWhy wouldn\u2019t someone want to be named? Well, I happen to have been the chief fundraiser for the ACT Party for the last eight years, and I\u2019ve raised quite a lot of money, and the people on the Labour benches would love to know how much. Actually, if they read, they could find out. But I can tell them that when I talk to people, a lot of people give just under the public disclosure limit. Is it because they are nefarious people that want to secretly influence me? Can you get the ACT Party to bend from its principles for $14,999? No, you can\u2019t. They are people that have contracts with Government departments. They are people who like their privacy. They are people who have seen other political donors being publicly attacked for their political views. They\u2019re people whose friends or family might politically disagree with them. They want to participate and help like-minded New Zealanders communicate their views by advertising and campaigning to others, but they don\u2019t want to blow their cover for a whole variety of perfectly reasonable reasons, and I think that\u2019s okay.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EBut what\u2019s the other thing that this change will make? Well, it\u2019s not going to somehow increase trust or transparency, because nobody is seriously arguing that $5,000 is a better number than $15,000. Nobody is seriously arguing that there is undue influence on political parties for $15,000. But what they are arguing and what they know but will not say is that if people decide to give only $5,000 instead of $15,000 to remove public reporting, here\u2019s what that will mean for the parties: altogether, there would be $1.2 million less donated to democracy, that\u2019s compared with 2020 figures. Which parties would get less money? Well, the Green Party, after the speech we just heard, you can understand, they don\u2019t raise much. Not many people give money to the Green Party, and you can understand why. They would have lost $67,000. And the Labour Party, you only get a 30-second speech from them, so not many people donate to them either. They would have raised $147,000 less in 2020. Now, the National Party\u2014not all donors are wise\u2014they would have raised $600,000 less, obviously not based on the quality of speeches, in this instance. The ACT Party would have raised $300,000 less.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003ESo this Labour Party that used to believe in democracy, it\u2019s bringing in a bill, unilaterally, rushed through with a shortened process to be in place in time for next year when there\u2019s an election. And why? It\u2019s because it is going to rip off their opponents by $900,000, and it\u2019s going to rip them off by about $200,000. This is a Labour Party that cannot make the argument there\u2019ll be more transparency. They can\u2019t explain why $5,000 is a better number than $15,000, but they know that they are screwing the scrum, kneecapping their opponents, undermining their opponents\u2019 fundraising ability, and all they are doing is eroding trust in democracy. They are eroding trust in them. They\u2019re eroding their adherence to their own constitutional principles. But I\u2019ve got some good news for the Labour Party: people who want a change of Government are smart and they know that the law changes on 31 December. I can tell the people in the Labour Party, they aren\u2019t holding back from filling up ACT\u2019s coffers before the law changes. With that, for this totally treasonous, undemocratic Act, next year we will bury you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u0022244370034072489dbcc75a2876fe8f9c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022244370034072489dbcc75a2876fe8f9c\u0022\u003EWILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai e te Whare, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. Thank you for this opportunity to take a brief call. For the listeners listening in tonight to the debate, I think they should pay close attention to how fiercely some parties are opposing this legislation that we\u2019re going to pass tonight. Evidence\u2014I\u2019ll give you some evidence. A survey undertaken by Victoria University in 2021 found that almost 70 percent of respondents indicated that they do not have a reasonable amount of trust in party funding\u2014oh, he\u2019s walking out. He can\u2019t even hear the rest of my evidence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EWhat then happened was that the Ministry of Justice undertook consultation. They consulted on reducing it from $30,000 down to $1,500, and where they actually landed\u2014and what we heard in the submissions process\u2014was $5,000. So that is actually a compromise on what was initially taken out for consultation, and the majority of the feedback that they received was actually in support of that. So, unfortunately, he didn\u2019t hang around to hear the evidence that supports why we are introducing these proposals. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u0022634df6e3f3764b34809047286d5fa273\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022634df6e3f3764b34809047286d5fa273\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise to speak on the Electoral Amendment Bill at its third reading. This is a sad day, it is a Labour Government that is using the power that it has been given by the New Zealand public to screw the scrum in its own favour rather than playing by the rules of the game that had been agreed on a bipartisan basis. And that is a very important part of our democratic framework. We have an agreement, a constitution of conventions, in this country that when we do things that affect the democratic arrangement\u2014the way that people choose their Governments\u2014we only change those rules on a bipartisan basis. However, Labour is changing the rules on its own accord without bipartisan agreement from the other parties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EI have not heard a good reason for why reducing the public disclosure threshold for donations and contributions to political parties from $15,000 to $5,000 is going to make any difference. Let\u2019s keep in mind that New Zealand is one of the oldest continuous democracies on the planet. It is one of only 21 full democracies in the world at this stage. We have a unique place on this planet, one of the only full democracies in this world, and we need to make sure we only change rules which affect the way we choose who governs us, very, very carefully, and we do so on a bipartisan basis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EI do recall Labour did something similar back in 2008 when it brought in the Electoral Finance Act\u2014again trying to screw the scrum in its benefit so it could have what it thought was a more beneficial system to give them a better chance of winning the election. I note the somewhat cynical view of this is that Labour is bringing this in for 2023, which just happens to be an election year. That is indicative of a Labour Government that does not have respect for the constitutional conventions that have made us one of the only 21 full democracies on this planet, and one of the longest-standing continuous democracies in the world. I\u2019m very disappointed that Labour has not respected that, and is bringing in laws like this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThe reality is that many people and businesses wish to remain anonymous\u2014either because they value their privacy, and they have good reasons for that, which I\u2019ll touch on, or because they fear retaliation from the other party in power at the time. That is the reality. We are a relatively small country with just over 5 million people. A lot of people do business with the Government and they don\u2019t want the Government to be aware that they don\u2019t necessarily agree with their ideology and would prefer to have a different party in power. That is their right to do so. Will reducing this threshold from $15,000 to $5,000 make any difference on that? Fundamentally, no, it will not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThe other point is: valuing privacy. We live, unfortunately, in an era where people are facing trial by social media. So if people don\u2019t wish to be seen as being affiliated to any particular party, they will be a lot more cautious about providing donations because, unfortunately, there is an increasing tendency, not just in New Zealand but, certainly, in New Zealand as well, where people are picking others who don\u2019t have the same belief system as them and attacking them by any means possible and using online mobs, effectively, to do so. That is something that we should be very, very cautious about because it is incredibly important that people feel they can express their views and that they can support the political parties of their choice to reflect the values that they think are important and should be reflected in the way they are governed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EIn the time available to me, I\u2019ll touch a little, as well, on an article from back in 21 July 2022, by Bryce Edwards, which said that although National had publicly released their submission, it was unclear from the Ministry of Justice why submissions were kept secret for other political parties. It also said that Labour did not provide a formal written submission. Instead, the party\u2019s general secretary gave an oral representation to the ministry, and it appears the records of that meeting are being withheld\u2014the irony of a Government that is reforming rules around secret political donations in a very secretive way. That, again, is not healthy for a democracy, and it begs the question why Labour is doing this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThis is an unfortunate attempt to screw the scrum in its own favour rather than playing by an agreed set of rules and playing a fair game, a fierce game, and letting the best person win. This will become law tonight, but this is a mistake by the Labour Party, and the National Party strongly opposes it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1e7fcd1919845398993519449e36c97\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1e7fcd1919845398993519449e36c97\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: I call on Helen White for five minutes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u00220a8b434e27cd4b8caa5d991984e53206\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a8b434e27cd4b8caa5d991984e53206\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I want to respond to that particular speech because it concerns me. We are in a democracy, it\u2019s true, and I would stand by that member Joseph Mooney in saying that we actually live in a very good democracy; we are one of the great democracies of the world. When I look at where we came from, from England, I worry about the level of democracy there because of the pressure on the MPs through lobbying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve done several things, as we\u2019ve evolved, to really combat that. One thing we do is we pay MPs quite well; that actually stops people from being subject to lobbying. Another thing that we do is we disclose donations. And, yes, we have to evolve, because we don\u2019t want to end up in a situation where those kinds of donations are putting pressure on people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESunlight is an incredibly good idea in this situation. It is very important that we adjust the rules every now and then. There is nothing about this that is screwing the scrum; in fact, I\u2019d say that\u2019s getting close to crazy-making language. This is exactly the opposite; this is bringing transparency to the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EActually, the National Party, as well as the Labour Party, will look back at this day and thank God we did it, because we do not want to end up in the camp of democracies that are so fragile and so eroded by the actual pressure of money and donations on them. I would remind the public to look at something like the United States and think that we are doing well. Let\u2019s keep doing well; let\u2019s make these changes. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022 data-id=\u00228765378c87b744de8ee3126230aaeacb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228765378c87b744de8ee3126230aaeacb\u0022\u003EDr EMILY HENDERSON (Labour\u2014Whang\u0101rei):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare. I\u2019m reminded always, when I listen to the Opposition in this particular debate, of my mother\u2019s comment: if you can\u2019t do something and tell people what you\u2019ve done, then you should probably be worrying about why you\u2019re doing it. But perhaps I am speaking a little unfairly, because I am someone who ran an election largely on the sale of jars of fudge made by my campaign manager, Julie Rigger, and the sale of $10 beanies, also made by my campaign manager, Julie, and other volunteers. So perhaps I underestimate the delicate sensibilities of those who do receive these large donations, and the even more delicate sensibilities, apparently, of those who give them but are too ashamed to do what they do out in the sunlight in public\u2014again, a very strange concept. I come from a small town, a small city, and, in that city, I meet many of the larger firms who are doing work for Government, in construction and other matters. I\u2019ve never found any of them who had any difficulty whatsoever in telling me what they thought of my political opinions or which side they support, and yet they still continue to talk to me and to deal with the Government. Strangely, they still continue to get contracts. So, again, a little concerned about the other side of the House and what they do in the shadows.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EBut the fact is, over on this side of the House, we understand what the public feels about what is done in the shadows. We do understand that over 70 percent of the community in a survey recently were deeply concerned about the lack of transparency of political donations, and they wanted to know what was being bought. And 85 percent of that same community survey found they wanted the reforms that are in this bill. People fear that large donors in the shadows may be buying preferential treatment or, indeed, policy. Let us show them that that is not so. Let us protect the incredibly fragile and important creature that is democracy. There is nothing more important that we do in this House to safeguard democracy, and that is why we commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u0022c963b55296fc43d4a05273de2081dccf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c963b55296fc43d4a05273de2081dccf\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Whangapar\u0101oa):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s my pleasure\u2014well, actually, it\u2019s not my pleasure\u2014to stand and take a call on this bill. We are opposing it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI couldn\u2019t believe it when Vanushi Walters\u2014who I have a lot of respect for, and I sit on the Justice Committee with her\u2014got up and in her opening statement and said, \u201CWe must do everything to protect our democracy. We must do everything to acknowledge our democracy in New Zealand.\u201D She had to come to the House with a straight face after they\u2019ve just got caught out trying to put an entrenchment clause into a bill, which was a massive insult. If you looked at all our constitutional academics and lawyers, they all came out and said that that\u2019s a massive attack on our democracy. So how do you get to stand in the House and say, \u201CThis is us protecting our democracy.\u201D when the week before, they were conducting one of the greatest attacks on our democracy? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d61e1feb6dda4e8690c4599eda284a0c\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232531261390a4a749a993469697dffdd\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: So\u2014well, they\u2019re laughing about it. You got caught out. That\u2019s funny, isn\u2019t it? My colleague Joseph Mooney was saying that this is screwing the scrum\u2014absolutely, it\u2019s screwing the scrum. It\u2019s a desperate attempt by the Labour Party, who know that they\u2019re in trouble, to introduce legislation that is going to work in their favour. Mr McAnulty, let\u2019s look at the proposal that was put up recently for lowering the voting age to 16. Everyone rushed out from the Labour Party and they said, \u201CLet\u2019s do it. This is a great idea.\u201D Mr McAnulty\u2014he put up the most compelling\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2c1b82e16bd4d05ac46c46316c7f279\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! The member will come back to this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264380288fc25479eb8ee24a9698bbcb7\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, Madam Speaker, I\u2019m responding to comments that were made in earlier\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf42ecdad07f4bba9515a86364d74d18\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. You can actually debate the third reading of this particular bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b9e5045b4af4753b18feaafbde399ea\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s a pleasure to talk to this bill. Let\u2019s talk about influence, because influence keeps getting raised on the other side of the House. I was trying to rack my brain, thinking, \u201CHave we had any really good examples in this House where there have been allegations of influence?\u201D, and I\u2019ve thought of one where there was a very wealthy Chinese businessman that made a large donation to the Labour Party and, for whatever reason, ended up with a citizenship ceremony in a Minister\u2019s office, or in a parliamentary office. Everyone thought, \u201CWell, that\u2019s wrong\u2014that\u2019s inherently wrong. That\u2019s money for access and that\u2019s money for influence.\u201D But the Labour Party came out and they were very clear and they were very firm about it, and they said, \u201CNo, that\u2019s not the case\u2014that\u2019s not the case. That donation had nothing to do with expediting a citizenship ceremony or hosting it here in Parliament.\u201D We have to take them on their word. Is that true? Is that true that the donations had no influence and that those donations had no\u2014it is. So we have to accept you on your word. So what is the problem? What is the problem that you\u2019re trying to fix? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EWhat is the real problem that you\u2019re trying to fix, or is it quite simply this\u2014and David Seymour raised it, and it was a very good point. Is it quite simply this: that you want to try and impact and affect the chances that your political opponents have got in raising money, because it has a disproportionate impact\u2014doesn\u2019t it?\u2014on the National Party and on the ACT Party, and we\u2019ve heard that. We\u2019ve heard the numbers. I disagree with them. I think that $200,000 is actually going to be very important to the Labour Party next year, when they\u2019re trying to raise money to actually campaign\u2014because that\u2019s what we should do. We should rely on donors that want to support us and want to get behind us to allow us to go out there and campaign and make our case to the country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI think that it\u2019s vile and I completely reject the premise of what these guys want to do, and that is to go to public funding. That quite simply means that taxpayers now will be funding political parties\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acda444c4083478e91ca60181c02dee4\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f487b96257804ec68528d9df487ae4c0\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and they\u2019ll have no choice at all. \u201CIt\u2019s not in the bill.\u201D, says \u201CMr 16-Year-Old Voter\u201D. He actually said, \u201CI think 16- and 17-year-olds are smarter than a lot of us.\u201D He makes the most compelling case for change, actually, when you think about it, and I assumed that he was talking about the Labour caucus. I assumed that he was talking about his own Labour caucus members\u2014very true. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019re not going to support this bill. Joseph Mooney is absolutely right, and, by the way, most of the public\u2014most Kiwis\u2014can see what\u2019s going on here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThe last speaker, Dr Emily Henderson, spoke about transparency\u2014transparency! They tried to suppress the submissions on this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f5d3f9a261a418d87118e2700d1bb53\u0022\u003EAngela Roberts\u003C/span\u003E: What?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c99bc6047ee40ab9494e7bca6b4cc4e\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: What is transparent around that\u2014what? Are you not aware? Whoever is speaking to the bill, take a call on it. Are you not aware that the submissions on this bill were suppressed? It took a long time to get them prised out for members of the public, for the press gallery, for the academics, for the political commentators\u2014for members of the public to actually have visibility on it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ESo when we stand on this side of the House and we say that this is a screwing of the scrum, it\u2019s because it is. The thing is that the public now are deeply suspicious of the machinations that are going on on the other side of the House in terms of what they\u2019re trying to do to use their power in Government to screw the scrum to make changes that normally would never happen. There is no bipartisan support for this to actually\u2014very clearly articulated\u2014give them an advantage next year, when we go into a general election. The people of New Zealand can judge and make up their own decision on that. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u00227257de6308fb4dbf9fff63b0e67be22f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227257de6308fb4dbf9fff63b0e67be22f\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to take a call on this bill. Just four points I wanted to make, quickly, in relation to some of the statements made in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThere is no public funding proposal in this bill. I also wanted to talk about transparency quickly. This bill lowers the threshold for reporting the donor to political parties from $15,000 to $5,000. That increases transparency; that means that there will be more confidence within our democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EAnother thing I wanted to mention was there\u2019s been some criticisms that this is being done before an election year. As everyone in this House will know, New Zealand has three-yearly election cycles and I don\u2019t doubt, if we pass this bill in an election year, there would be criticisms that we were doing it in an election year and that was also inappropriate. That leaves one year that we could make electoral law change. And as legislators whose party has been legislators in the past\u2014and sometimes supports legislation\u2014that is an impractical proposal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ELast thing I just wanted to mention was that this does increase franchise from the people who have been overseas unable to get home from COVID. More of these people will be able to vote. Therefore, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227032e381dd884f9a8d8064934a853cf7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Electoral Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 74\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000674\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002290bce664b1a4443ca7608ceef8c25acc\u0022\u003EOranga Tamariki Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fb0a2ffb537a4768a61e46cc12fb4cbc\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u00229daa510623994cdd8ffcc6f4c32429f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229daa510623994cdd8ffcc6f4c32429f1\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Oranga Tamariki Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274ab6fb1c1ca41b1b84b67d83ad36a4e\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213e660829e9241e9b4df6c13ea0e699b\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Oranga Tamariki Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EI want to take this opportunity to reflect on the journey that this bill has taken to get to its third reading here today, with a particular focus on the partial repeal of the subsequent child provisions. The journey began in 2019 when the former Minister for Children, the Hon Tracey Martin, initiated a first principles review of the subsequent child provisions. That review found they were not promoting the best interests of the children; rather, the provisions were actually causing harm. In particular, the provisions were causing harm to both the child and their older sibling who had already been removed from the parent\u2019s care, because they would be pulled into additional and potentially traumatic court proceedings to confirm that the older child had no realistic probability of being returned to the care of their parents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EThe provisions also impacted on M\u0101ori. Of the 19 declarations made under the provisions, 11 related to tamariki M\u0101ori, two related to children with both M\u0101ori and Pacific descent, and one to a child of Pacific descent. It\u2019s not surprising, then, that the provisions are viewed with distrust by M\u0101ori, or that the Waitangi Tribunal found that the provisions caused prejudice to M\u0101ori and that until the Crown had completed the partial repeal, it was \u201Cin continuing breach of the duty to act in good faith, central to the partnership principle, and to actively promote M\u0101ori rangatiratanga over their k\u0101inga.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EThe partial repeal of the subsequent child provisions is therefore necessary to rebuild the faith, trust, and confidence that families, wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, iwi, and communities need to have when dealing with Oranga Tamariki. Rebuilding that trust is also an important step in enabling the future direction of Oranga Tamariki. How can wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, iwi, and communities trust Oranga Tamariki to work with them in partnership while such provisions are still in the legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EAlso, importantly, the subsequent child provisions impacted on social workers and their ability to use their skills and expertise. The provisions also created conditions for hostility with parents, family, and wh\u0101nau and undermined the ability of social workers to work in relational ways with wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, iwi, and communities. Our social workers do their best to support our vulnerable children and families every day. To do that, they need to be able to use their skills, experience, and professional knowledge, particularly in areas of work that require significant sensitivity and skill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EThis bill is not just about the partial repeal of the subsequent child provisions. It also makes a number of other changes to the Oranga Tamariki Act 1989. This includes the repeal of a data set provision that is no longer required given that alternative safeguards and protections now exist. These alternative mechanisms are less administratively burdensome while still allowing for safe sharing of information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EFinally, the bill makes a number of other minor and technical changes to the Act, all of which are aimed at tidying up an Act that is over 30 years old and has been subject to a number of significant legislative amendments. This includes the change introduced at the committee of the whole House stage to amend section 198 to address the unintended consequences of a prior legislative change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EThis bill is an important step in improving outcomes for children and young people. It is important to continue the journey of change of Oranga Tamariki. I would like once again to acknowledge the Hon Tracey Martin for her work on subsequent children and for starting the process to review the subsequent child provisions during her time as Minister for Children. I also want to thank the Social Services and Community Committee for its thoughtful consideration of the bill and their recommendations, which have improved the clarity of some of the technical amendments of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003EI also want to thank members of the public who helped the committee to consider the bill, through written and oral submissions. I know that many, like me, are ready and eager for change at Oranga Tamariki. Small steps, such as the partial repeal, are important to support that change to occur. I commend the Oranga Tamariki Amendment Bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002223715cf4d4694774b9520208ead28b4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223715cf4d4694774b9520208ead28b4f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00228525b84052284b70931933587e5f4903\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228525b84052284b70931933587e5f4903\u0022\u003EMAUREEN PUGH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I stand on behalf of the National Party in opposition to this bill, the Oranga Tamariki Amendment Bill, in its third and final reading tonight. This bill did not attract a huge amount of submissions during the select committee process. The Minister has just said that he thanks those submitters, but, unfortunately, many of them were distracted by the change to the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System Bill. So having two bills happening at very similar times meant that we probably didn\u2019t get the number of submissions that we would have liked. But that has not meant that the select committee did not scrutinise this bill in its entirety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EBut there are a couple of main provisions in this amendment bill, and I\u2019ll start with probably the smaller impact, which was the section 66D dataset provision, which is repealing that provision out of the existing Act. This provision only really came into effect in July 2019, so it really hasn\u2019t had a lot of time to become embedded. But, as we found out, there were\u2014so just as a matter of explanation, this is about information-sharing provisions and creating datasets and publicising where those datasets came from so that the public was made aware of them. But it turns out that this hadn\u2019t been enacted or implemented, so we now find ourselves changing the law because it hasn\u2019t been implemented. The excuse is that there have been no reports of these data sets, when, in actual fact, if we looked at implementation rather than the inaction that we\u2019ve seen with this provision, it would seem logical to ensure that OT\u2014Oranga Tamariki\u2014was actually using that provision, rather than changing the law to cover up the inaction. So it just seems a little bit odd that we are even considering that, rather than using it for the purpose it was intended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EBut the main part of this bill that has seen the Opposition oppose this bill is as it relates to the subsequent child provision. So I just note that the purpose of this is to enable women and families who have had a child who has been previously removed and there is no likelihood\u2014not \u201Cpossible likelihood\u201D but \u201Cno likelihood\u201D\u2014realistically possible that that child or young person will be returned to that person\u2019s care. That seems, on the face of it, quite innocuous, but what we find is that by virtue of the fact that this bill is removing the provision for an automatic response to the family to remove that child until there is clear proof that that child is going to be safe and will not be subject to the types of harm that the previous child had been exposed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003ESo this is where we part our ways in terms of our view of this bill, because if we look at the main provision of new section 18B in the bill, it\u2019s that Oranga Tamariki can continue to inquire into the safety of any subsequent children and provide supports for that child and their wh\u0101nau and hold a family group conference. But we have heard throughout other readings on this bill that it is streamlining the process. We know that mums and dads, in some cases, do require absolute intense wraparound support to enable them to provide a home and security for subsequent children, but, in the meantime, there is still a risk that some children face. And that is why we think, on this side of the House, that the main purpose is to protect our children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003ENow, the bill talks about the safety and wellbeing of these children, but, sadly, there is no definition of \u201Csafety\u201D or \u201Cwellbeing\u201D in this bill. So we also have a lot of concern from the people that did find concerns with this bill that there is no oversight then from Oranga Tamariki around safety and wellbeing and then support. So without confined definitions, Oranga Tamariki and the social workers become very subjective\u2014and we don\u2019t want subjectivity when it comes to the protection of our children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003ESo, unfortunately, if this provision goes through and this bill will be enacted tonight, it means that if Oranga Tamariki receives a report of concern about a child or young person and that child or young person\u2019s care and protection needs to be assessed, sadly this is already after the fact, which means that we already have a report of concern which is, as we\u2019ve seen with some of the children that have been subject to abuse in their family, already too late. And the reason the subsequent child provision was put in place in the first place was because of the potential risk\u2014and it may not be real, but it may be potential risk. When we put children at the heart of legislation, it means that we are making sure that there is no risk to these children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003ENow, the reason it\u2019s called a partial repeal is because there is one part of that clause that is staying in there, and that is if there has been a murder, infanticide, or manslaughter\u2014which is quite realistic and we support that. But, unfortunately, it does not extend into other forms of abuse that children can be subject to, which are serious physical abuses that leaves a child with permanent injuries or disabilities. We know how vulnerable they are to beating, broken bones, even the psychological damage, and that is now not taken into consideration. So, unfortunately, the partial repeal only applies to those who have killed children; not to those who have permanently disabled or harmed children in a psychological or physical way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003ESo I think before the Government passes this legislation they need to give some thought to those children that we are talking about. Look, there is less than 20 times this provision has been used\u2014this subsequent child provision\u2014in this country since it came in. That tells you that it is not commonplace to have used it, but in those cases where there is extreme concern for the safety of subsequent children, it has been used.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019d like to end my contribution by reminding the Government members of the children that we have heard about that have been publicly on display for the harm that has come to them and to pay tribute and remember them: James Whakaruru, the Kahui twins, Nia Glassie, Tahani Mahomed, Duwayne Pailegutu, and most recently Malachi Subecz. These children needed the support of the State to protect them. We have now exposed some very vulnerable children to some serious consequences, and I\u2019m really disappointed that we\u2019ve come to this, because if the Government was serious about putting children at the heart of their legislation, thinking of them first without thinking about streamlining a process, maybe using another Family Court hearing to assess the suitability of parents to continue to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00228cb0f3f8faa74f39b34ac480d0efa335\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228cb0f3f8faa74f39b34ac480d0efa335\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member\u2019s time is up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022 data-id=\u0022fafdd4e4d7cd48389c69284b71de2b97\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fafdd4e4d7cd48389c69284b71de2b97\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It is a great pleasure to rise for the partial repeal of some of this legislation, the Oranga Tamariki Amendment Bill. The reason I\u2019m delighted to be standing today is because the onus or burden of proof was reversed for parents who had lost a child to the State. That onus or burden of proof became once a subsequent child was born they had to prove that they would be a good and fit parent. It could be 20, 30 years later that they were that parent. They had to prove it. Without the resources that the State has, without the supports that the State can put in place, they had to prove this. And those children who were first removed, the first child that came before the subsequent child, those children had to attend court and they had to talk about why they were unable to ever be returned to their parents. I think that this was a repugnant piece of legislation that sat and was used in a way that took away the hope for families. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EI hear what the member across the aisle said. The potential risk is what the member was talking about. But we\u2019re not talking about potential risk in a small matter; we\u2019re talking about the removal of a child from their family without any proven evidence that that child would be harmed. There is no subsequent evidence that that child would be harmed. And that is what I\u2019m delighted about us having changed tonight. The removal of children from their families is harmful and should only occur in very exceptional circumstances\u2014not automatically, not immediately when a further child is born to a family that has had an uplift. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EI am absolutely pleased that this piece of legislation is changing, and I\u2019m pleased about that because the oversight will still occur. Our communities will still be vigilant. Oranga Tamariki will still be vigilant. But the onus and burden of proof will be shifted back to the State to prove the child will be harmed. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u0022835a6407949540eaa3962d5c85649edd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022835a6407949540eaa3962d5c85649edd\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise to speak in opposition to the Oranga Tamariki Amendment Bill in this, its third reading. As we\u2019ve heard, the bill amends the Oranga Tamariki Act 1989 by partially repealing the subsequent child provisions. It has other matters of repealing the information-sharing provision and amending the technical errors and ambiguities, but I speak mainly to the partial repeal of the subsequent child provisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EThey were introduced back in 2014 by the National Party and came into effect in 2016. The subsequent child provisions only apply when Oranga Tamariki receives a report of concern about a child, and the parent has previously had a child permanently removed from their care or has a conviction for the death of a child in their care. The provisions are intended to introduce an automatic mandatory response to ensure greater oversight over the safety of the subsequent child.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ENational continues to oppose this bill. We stand by our policy of the legislation that we bought in back in 2014. We stand by the policy because we believe that it does provide that automatic, that mandatory response to ensure greater oversight of the safety of subsequent children. We are concerned that the partial repeal of the provisions will increase subsequent children\u2019s likelihood of being exposed to neglect and abuse by a parent. Sometimes people do change; there is absolutely no doubt about that. People turn their lives around. The previous speaker, Angie Warren-Clark, talked about the onus being on the parent to have to prove that they are a good parent. Well, they should have to. If they have seriously harmed a child, they should have to prove that they are a good and fit parent for their subsequent child. I don\u2019t think we should be making excuses or saying that\u2019s a bad thing. So sometimes people do turn themselves around, their lives around, but the benefit of doubt must always be with the child. It may disadvantage a parent; that\u2019s quite right. It may, but we must always balance the risk to the child rather than the disadvantage to the parent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s be really clear: the subsequent child provision applies when Oranga Tamariki receives a report of concern and when the parent has already previously had a child permanently removed from their care and that child has no likelihood at all of returning to that parent. It\u2019s entirely possible that the 19 times that this has been used since it was introduced has saved 19 children from serious harm, or, worse, from being killed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EI regularly have a young boy coming to visit us with his caregiver. He was shaken as a baby and was taken from his mother. He now lives his life in a wheelchair, non-verbal, and unable to eat by mouth. I wish that young child had been taken from his mother earlier. I wish the intervention had been earlier, because that dear little boy doesn\u2019t get a second chance to prove himself. So our feeling is that the benefit of doubt must always, always, always be with the child, because there are no second chances for them. There is no opportunity for them to prove themselves. They have been the victims. The National Party prioritises, and I hope that all New Zealanders would prioritise, protecting children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EWe have a shameful record of not protecting children from serious harm and being killed. It is a national shame to us all. We must concentrate on protecting children, their welfare and wellbeing, and enhancing families, wh\u0101nau, and communities to care for and protect our children. Of course that is what we want to happen, but we must, first and foremost, protect those children. We must do everything possible to make our young children and our babies safer. If we don\u2019t protect them, if we are constantly looking for ways to make it easier for the parent to retain the care of those children, then we put them at risk. I don\u2019t know how anyone in this Parliament could live with putting children at greater risk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EFor some reason, we have strayed into the thinking that the parent has to always be given the benefit of doubt. We have strayed into thinking we\u2019ve got to be constantly looking for second chances. But so often we have let babies and young children down. As I keep saying, they don\u2019t get a second chance. Every time I look at that young boy who visits us in a wheelchair, non-verbal, not able to eat\u2014he didn\u2019t get a second chance. So I\u2019m not sure that this legislation giving the benefit of the doubt back to the parent, taking away the onus on the parent to prove that they are a fit and responsible person to have the care of that young child, I don\u2019t consider it is the right direction for us to be moving to. We are not talking about insignificant matters. We are talking about serious harm to our babies and young children. Because of that, we certainly oppose this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022 data-id=\u002231cc1be97c8b4e3496374e0e5279c956\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231cc1be97c8b4e3496374e0e5279c956\u0022\u003EDr EMILY HENDERSON (Labour\u2014Whang\u0101rei):\u003C/span\u003E I have spent most of my adult life in and out of the Family Court as a lawyer and a researcher. So when I hear the member opposite speak about the need to keep children out of the hands of parents who are truly terrible, yeah, I understand, absolutely, what she\u2019s saying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EBut the reality is really, really complicated. And we\u2019re not talking about that very top tier of parents; we\u2019re talking about the tier down. One of the things that I do just want to briefly say about this bill is that because it puts that judgment role so strongly on social workers, what it also did was completely destroy the social workers\u2019 ability to work with the wh\u0101nau. It destroyed trust and it destroyed the ability of parents who had slipped but had the opportunity and the ability to come back from that, from doing so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EFor example, I remember a woman we worked with for many years, had a baby very young and the danger to that child was not her\u2014it was her violent partner and the dad. The child was taken from her. She split with dad; she stayed away from dad. But every time she had a baby, that baby was at risk of being removed and she had to fight that same system. It wasn\u2019t fair, it wasn\u2019t appropriate, it destroyed the relationships she could have had with the social workers. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022fdb00b3e158448b28d66595f08bdd710\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fdb00b3e158448b28d66595f08bdd710\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s with pleasure I rise to offer the Green Party\u2019s support for this bill, though we would have gone further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EBut I want to start my contribution with picking up from a submission from Morgan Tupaea to the Social Services and Community Committee from Morgan\u2019s Master\u2019s thesis around the lived experience of removals, because I want to ground this in experience of people in our country. The quote that comes later is from a mother who\u2019s had her first baby removed from her care due to her experiences as a family-violence victim.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThe point that the previous speaker, Emily Henderson, made is that an experience that is very common to anybody who has worked in domestic violence in this country is where survivors of abuse are punished twice for the abuse of their partner, and their children lose the attachment to the protective parent because our system does not recognise adequately the dynamics of family violence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EAnd in the case of this quote I\u2019m about to read, the victim\u2019s victimisation was seen as a reason to sever the relationship between her and her baby. Despite removing herself from that context of domestic violence and working with kaum\u0101tua and community groups to make positive changes in her life, her history of victimisation\u2014this is from the submission\u2014was weaponised against her by the State a second time. In this instance, she was subjected to the uplift of her second child within 24 hours of her birth. This is the quote in the submission: \u201CShe got to the door of the hospital room. She screamed, and she was running, and I got up, because I\u2019ve got my walking stick, and I\u2019m running and we get outside and \u2026 as soon as I got to the door, all I saw was police cars. They had a police van across the hospital gate. They had five police cars and were carrying [a] baby out. And we ran, and she was screaming, and I was trying to catch up to her, a cop ran past me. [And] I don\u2019t know if he tackled her or what, but anyway, I\u2019m hoping not, I couldn\u2019t see \u2018cause I was down on the ground, and they brought her back.\u201D And this was from a kaum\u0101tua watching the removal of a child from a victim of family violence because of a policy like this, which we are about to remove, and it\u2019s long overdue for it to be removed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s discussion of harm\u2014and I completely get that we want to care for our kids. If we hold our children centre, as I\u2019ve heard coming from National Party members tonight, we have to think about this holistically. Removing the ability to attach to a safe parent has lifelong consequences. This is not removing the requirement for there to be an assessment of safety, but it just means that it\u2019s up to the State to prove that there is not safety in that family. That is important when the State has such a fundamentally problematic history where the State has, again and again and again, got this wrong, where children and families have been destroyed because of our lack of understanding of this. This is something that I\u2014you might be able to tell\u2014feel kind of passionately about. I think that our wh\u0101nau and our kids deserve for us to think about this in all of its complexity, and not in the simplicity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI also do just want to note that this legislation and the review that was initiated by Minister Martin last term was in the wake of the Hastings uplift, where, as a country\u2014I suspect for the first time\u2014we got to witness the uplift of a tamaiti M\u0101ori, and it shook us, as a country, that this myth of a benign State caring for children, was exposed as a myth. The absolute violence of the State, and the intrusion into wh\u0101nau\u2014and the right, as recognised by the Waitangi Tribunal, of tino rangatiratanga over k\u0101inga was just destroyed. We all got to see something that had, up until that point, been experienced by wh\u0101nau again and again and again, but hidden\u2014because these are secretive processes out of consideration of privacy. But, in that instance, they were exposed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI believe we need to come back to that in this debate. Remember, for those members who saw that video\u2014and I hope everybody did\u2014what their reaction was to that, because it should have been shock. This is important to put in the context of colonisation and the fact that M\u0101ori children make up 25 percent of children in this country and yet they make up 68 percent of children in care. As the Waitangi Tribunal has recognised, and I will quote from the tribunal ruling around Oranga Tamariki: \u201CThe urgent issue before us concerns the long-term and significant disparity between the number of Tamariki M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori children being taken into State care. The disparity has arisen and persists in part due to the effects of alienation and dispossession, but also because of a failure by the Crown to honour the guarantee to M\u0101ori of the right of cultural continuity embodied in the guarantee of Tino Rangatiratanga over their k\u0101inga. It is more than just a failure to honour or uphold, it is also a breach born of hostility to the promise itself.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003ENow, anybody hearing that, reading that judgment, who is going to quibble and oppose the first piece of legislation that makes any step towards addressing that has a problem, to my mind. This is the first piece of legislation, and it is a tiny step. I do want to bring in the calls from submitters, including the Children\u2019s Commissioner, and I will, because we\u2019ve heard a lot from this side of the House, including myself, about the importance of the voice of the Children\u2019s Commissioner and how we should be strengthening that voice and not undermining it. Then, in the next opportunity, when we hear from the commissioner and they are saying, \u201CActually, this bill should go further, this needs to happen.\u201D They never said vote against this. They said, \u201CDo it. But, actually, you should repeal the entire provision.\u201D It\u2019s a real shame to hear that that is not being listened to on this side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThe reason they were calling for that is an acknowledgment that while this provision has not often been used in that specificity, it has had a profound impact, as already acknowledged by the Minister for Children, on the trust of wh\u0101nau in social workers. It has completely undermined the ability for them to build relationships and to be able to work through any issues that the wh\u0101nau may have. It has undermined good social work practice and meant that social workers have increasingly been making poor decisions in a broader sense. And it has undermined, specifically, tino rangatiratanga over k\u0101inga. So they are three very significant points that, I believe, are incredibly important to listen to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003ESo the Greens would have repealed this entire provision and we would have wanted to see legislation that went much further. We\u2019ve had so many reports telling us that the system is failing. I acknowledge the Minister\u2019s commitment to transformation, and that\u2019s being done through internal work. My concern is that without legislation to bolster that, it\u2019s very easy for initiatives to go into place and for changes to start happening, but when attention goes off, things go back to the default of how they were. Our children deserve and need better than that. But this is still a step forward because this provision is harmful. If we have a choice of acting to prevent harm, then we need to do that in this House. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u0022927062eaa29c4dc8852d65bec271937a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022927062eaa29c4dc8852d65bec271937a\u0022\u003EKAREN CHHOUR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity to speak on the Oranga Tamariki Amendment Bill. This has been a weird process from the very beginning, starting from the select committee process in the way of we did not get many submissions when it came to this bill, because it ran alongside another bill that was quite contentious and it kind of was hidden in the shadows behind that contentious bill, which was the Oranga Tamariki oversight bill. So there was not much feedback on this amendment bill and thoughts on what kinds of unintended consequences may come about by what this bill is intending to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003ESo what this bill is proposing to do is to partially repeal the subsequent child provisions which came into effect on 30 June 2016. By repealing that, it will mean that only children who have died at the hands of an adult whose care they were in\u2014whether it be through manslaughter, murder, or infanticide\u2014will come under the provision of an automatic mandatory report being made and making sure that an assessment is done to make sure that any other children that are born to that person is in a safe home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EWhilst I kind of feel for the Government and understand where they were coming from, I think we\u2019ve raised the bar a bit too high when it comes to what a parent or a caregiver can actually do before we think \u201CWow, maybe we should make sure that the next child isn\u2019t put at any risk of this happening to them.\u201D Personally, I have seen the damage of children who have come after children who have been abused and neglected in their home, and then another child has come along and suffered sometimes a worse fate than what the first child suffered. I feel that a safety net is needed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s why in the committee of the whole House I did put forward an alternative and a Supplementary Order Paper in my name, requesting that we add in another provision\u2014apart from murder, manslaughter, or infanticide\u2014that would also include a person who was convicted under sections 188 to 204 of the Crimes Act 1961 of an offence involving the assault or injury of a child or a young person who is in the person\u2019s care or custody at the time of the offence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003ENow, these aren\u2019t small, minor issues. These are issues that could be\u2014I\u2019ll list a few: wounding with intent, injuring with intent, strangulation or suffocation, aggravated wounding or injury, aggravated assault, assault with intent to injure, assault on a child, ill treatment or neglect of a child, disabling, discharging a firearm in their presence, poisoning, infecting with a disease, or assault with a weapon. So I\u2019m not talking about small minor issues within a home. I\u2019m talking about major issues where someone would be convicted with at least three months of prison time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EI feel it\u2019s up to us to be the protection for the young people who cannot protect themselves. And we have seen this Government, previous Governments, and Governments before\u2014for a long time\u2014who have, with best of intentions, tried to have our children living in safe environments, but have failed. Just recently, over the last few years, we\u2019ve seen report after report after report into Oranga Tamariki, and whatever it was called before it was called Oranga Tamariki, stating that they are not doing their job. They are not actually protecting our children and children are slipping through the cracks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EI mentioned the Oranga Tamariki Oversight Bill at the very beginning, because the select committee process ran side by side. Part of me is concerned that by changing this and getting rid of the safety net here for subsequent children, my concern is around the oversight process when things go wrong. So now we\u2019ve got two bills that I feel are going to let our children down. It\u2019s a scary thought. I have every belief that those within the select committee process that were sitting across the table from me are trying to do the right thing, but the unintended consequences are just far too damaging to ignore. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019ve heard that social workers will still have the ability to act if a report of concern is made. I think I heard it mentioned on this side of the House previously that that\u2019s after the fact. It\u2019s after the fact that somebody has seen something that they feel they need to report. And from experience, it takes a lot for somebody to report. It\u2019s not just somebody thinking, \u201COh, maybe something\u2019s wrong.\u201D It takes a lot for somebody to put in a report of concern. Then once you put in the report of concern, what is the process after that? Recent reports have shown us that even if someone has put in a report of concern, there\u2019s no guarantee that that report of concern is going to be followed up. There\u2019s no guarantee that that report of concern is going to be taken seriously. Whereas if we have an automatic mandatory check, it\u2019s there, it\u2019s in place, and it has to be done and we know it will be done. And we\u2019re not relying on an after the fact report of concern when we may be too late. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003ECan we afford not to have this safety net? Whether or not it\u2019s an inconvenience to parents, hap\u016B, iwi, and children that have come before, is that inconvenience worth saving a life for? In my mind, it is. Because a child can never get their life back if they pass away. We can say sorry as much as we like, but that\u2019s not going to bring back a child that loses their life or ends up with a lifetime of disability because a safety net that may be a bit inconvenient for our system is taken away. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EI have huge concerns about the potential risk we are putting these children in. Through best of intentions, I hear that we\u2019ve got to rebuild the faith and trust of families, iwi, and hap\u016B. Surely, it\u2019s the other way round. Surely they should rebuild their trust in the State to show that they are capable of looking after these children. There should be some kind of accountability for bad behaviour and terrible behaviour when it comes to our children. We are losing too many children and we\u2019re making too many excuses for the bad behaviour of these parents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EI hear that a lot of parents that have ended up in these situations have been victims of abuse themselves. I\u2019m sorry about that; that should never have happened. But it is also not an excuse to let people get away with creating more victims. Because when does this cycle break? When do we break the cycle of abuse and harm to our children? When do we say it\u2019s not OK and we\u2019re going to make sure that this doesn\u2019t happen to another child? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EThis bill does not do that. It actually puts our children at more risk. So we oppose this bill and hope that the Government can come forward with some better legislation in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022 data-id=\u00227151b5d73a2647cfb2a751c8cfc30624\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227151b5d73a2647cfb2a751c8cfc30624\u0022\u003EDr LIZ CRAIG (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a real pleasure to stand and speak in support of this bill, because what this bill does by repealing the subsequent child provisions\u2014partially repealing them\u2014is it basically means that social workers can get on and do what they do best, and that is use their skills and expertise to walk alongside families and children, and also to support those parents who\u2019ve decided that they\u2019re going to turn the situation around and do the best by their subsequent child. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EI think we\u2019ve heard in the House tonight about the really negative impacts that these provisions have had on parents\u2019 ability to bond with their subsequent children, but also social workers to be able to work with wh\u0101nau to ensure the best outcomes for children. But this bill also has safeguards, and I think it\u2019s basic social work practice\u2014walking alongside families is one aspect, but, also, making sure that we retain the subsequent child provision for parents or caregivers who\u2019ve been convicted of the death of a child in their care. So making sure that we get that balance right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s an important bill, and it\u2019ll make a difference to a small number of children, but a very important group of children, in our country. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022 data-id=\u0022858bb625c4764f2a8a882094fc55dc63\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022858bb625c4764f2a8a882094fc55dc63\u0022\u003EHARETE HIPANGO (National):\u003C/span\u003E Every child\u2019s life matters. That\u2019s where my focus and attention is for this debate, and has been right throughout the series of debates on the Oranga Tamariki Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EI have no pleasure or delight in taking this call, because what I\u2019ve heard consistently coming from the other side, the Government who is charged responsibility, the Minister for Children, charged responsibility, for the welfare, the best interests, the wellbeing, the paramountcy of our New Zealand children\u2019s lives has not been the priority in this debate. What I\u2019m hearing, what New Zealanders are hearing, is that the subsequent child provision is being amended to satisfy and suit social work practice and parental rights. The whole point and focus of this debate has been charged and focused wrongly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EPrior to coming into public service here in this House since 2017, like one of my colleagues across the House I\u2019ve dedicated my professional life in service to child welfare\u2014a child specialist lawyer. The subsequent child provision partial repeal of this law, which is the controversial and contentious point of the amendments, some 40 amendments, now 41 with the Supplementary Order Paper supported by the Minister for Children going through, not one of those focuses primarily on protecting the child. The subsequent children\u2019s provision was specifically about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EI have heard\u2014this is highly charged, and there has been emotional debate and contribution. I\u2019m speaking with clarity and experience of the law. I know that the subsequent child provision has been controversial, but the whole point of it is to be proactive, not react to a child who has been seriously harmed or abused. And I have repeatedly reiterated in this House the number of reviews, the number of reports, the number of recommendations, most recently from Dame Karen Poutasi stating, as a result of review and findings of Malachi Subecz\u2019s life\u2014death. That child is dead because there was not the blanket of protection provided by the State. There were notifications of his abuse and there was no reaction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EThis subsequent child provision is about being proactive, not having to react to harm already caused. I\u2019ve heard that it\u2019s repugnant, it is repugnant that the onus of proof is on the parent or is reversed. Actually, look and read the law. The assessment requirement is on the State welfare agency to do its job properly. I have heard repeatedly in this House, and I acknowledge social workers have a very difficult job and they know it going into it, but they have a high burden of responsibility, and that burden of responsibility under the subsequent child provision, section 18A through to C\u2014and this is a partial repeal about who satisfies and is a parent that meets the subsequent provision of their child taken into care and what should happen. What hasn\u2019t happened, and it\u2019s been mentioned that only 19 cases have been activated under this provision. Part of that is because of social work policy and practice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022868f3a11-6a23-474f-a25e-6bc1d4c6e93f\u0022\u003EThe provision under the law quite clearly states the onus\u2014we talk about the reverse onus, and it\u2019s been reiterated and repeated and stated that that burden is on the parent, actually, in part, but it\u2019s on the social worker. Section 18A(2): \u201CIf the chief executive believes on reasonable grounds that a person is a person to whom this section applies,\u201D that is, the person described as a parent of a child who has been previously taken into care and permanent placement\u2014the subsequent child, the burden, the onus, is on Oranga Tamariki to do the checks and the assessments. Not on the parent. There has been so much misinformation. I do not commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u002271b758dc4e364bc581650b55ae241030\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271b758dc4e364bc581650b55ae241030\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana. Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise in support of the Oranga Tamariki Amendment Bill and want to acknowledge Minister Davis for his leadership in this space, but also colleagues who have had direct experience as practitioners in this space as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThis bill will effectively lead to a partial repeal of what other colleagues have referred to in what is colloquially known as the \u201Csubsequent child provisions\u201D. And when one reflects on the potential removal of trauma, of distress, for children within a court setting, then that means that this is a good move.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EMuch has been said in this House this evening about the role of social workers, and I want to commend the work that social workers do in this Family Court jurisdiction space, alongside lawyers as well. Where the status quo effectively places those practitioners in a difficult position, that is not a good move. So this change is a positive move. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2ce135da64a47d9b82cfb1e19f3c1c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2ce135da64a47d9b82cfb1e19f3c1c9\u0022\u003ETERISA NGOBI (Labour\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Having worked at Oranga Tamariki, having worked in the social services sector for over a decade, having worked in the volunteer and community sector for over a decade, and being a member of the Social Services and Community Committee who heard the submitters on this bill, one thing that is really clear and one thing I think everyone can agree to is that the Oranga Tamariki system needs change. They need change to make sure that we are protecting our most vulnerable, our tamariki, our wh\u0101nau, and also making sure that our social workers can do the job they need to do. That is what this bill does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003EOn this side of the House, we are very clear: this is about making sure that we make real change for our people of New Zealand. It\u2019s not about putting plasters on, not about filling holes; this is making sure that the real change is going to support children, support their family, and support social workers to do the job they want to do, and that is work meaningfully\u2014meaningfully\u2014without being restricted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003EThat is what the partial repeal of the subsequent child does. That repeal will make sure that social workers can do the job that they trained to do, that they want to do, and that is care for our children, help and support our families, make sure they do right by children. That is what this Labour Government is trying to do: make sure that we remove those barriers so social workers can do their job, less kids go into care, that families can stay together. That is what this bill does, and that is why we support it. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u00228b108b93cc864b7c8b7c254adc33bf81\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b108b93cc864b7c8b7c254adc33bf81\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E That member, Terisa Ngobi, just made the point; that is exactly what the Oranga Tamariki Amendment Bill is about. It should be about protecting children. But no, this is an ideological piece of legislation, because Labour has decided they want fewer children in State care. Well, no apologies from this side: I want fewer New Zealand children harmed. When we live in a country where one child is killed every five weeks, actually their interests should come first. And who is accountable? The Minister for Children. So, yep, social workers do incredible work, but the accountability sits with the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EI want to draw your attention to the comment that talked about a first principles review of the provisions, in 2019, that found they were not operating in a way that promoted the best interests of children, nor as originally intended. That\u2019s not a fault with the law; that\u2019s a fault in how it\u2019s being implemented. And, fundamentally, when this legislation was introduced, it was the vulnerable children\u2019s legislation. It was aimed and targeted at vulnerable children, and it was all about the prevention of harm. So why on earth\u2014why on earth\u2014if it wasn\u2019t for an ideological reason, would Labour change it? Because, on this side of the House, we do not want to sit back and watch yet another child be harmed or killed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s face facts. It\u2019s not a pleasant reality, but the reality is that for a parent who has had a child removed, or a parent who has been responsible for the manslaughter or murder of a child of theirs or of a child in their care, unfortunately, that past behaviour is an indicator of future behaviour. So we are very clear on this side: we are not willing to risk additional harm to that child, and we absolutely must ensure that they are protected, first and foremost. \u201COh, no, no. We\u2019ll give it a go.\u201D, says Labour. \u201CWe\u2019ll let the parents have the subsequent child, and we\u2019ll keep an eye on them.\u201D Really? No matter how hard a social worker works to support that family, there is a risk. And it is naive to suggest, to think, or to ideologically think it\u2019s anything other than that. So the child should be the first, the second, the third, and every other priority in this legislation. But, unfortunately, they are not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EI want to put on record that National believes in the ability of families, no matter how broken, no matter how dysfunctional, no matter what has happened in the past, to get back up, to heal, to improve, and to learn and develop and grow. So we are not saying we are writing those parents off. We\u2019re just saying: do not put a child at risk of harm. So, absolutely, work intensively with that family, get them to a place where they can have children in their care, but do not\u2014do not\u2014place that child in a place of harm or risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003ENational has a very clear social investment approach, and Nicola Willis gave a fantastic speech recently about \u201Cdoing good better\u201D. One of the elements of social investment is early identification\u2014actually making sure that we are targeting our investment in areas that get the best results. I firmly believe\u2014I firmly believe\u2014that many of the families that these children belong to can rebuild and can have children returned, but the first priority must be keeping those children safe, and then allowing, over time, a safe, managed return.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThis is about reversing this onus of proof. I don\u2019t think it\u2019s too onerous for a parent who\u2019s had a child permanently removed from their care, a child that has been murdered or has died through manslaughter or infanticide\u2014that any subsequent children, their priority and their safety is put first. I don\u2019t think that is too onerous. I would have thought that makes complete and utter sense. And, to this side, that\u2019s what we believe\u2014we firmly believe. And, actually, I\u2019m still staggered as we debate this in the final reading that others in this House don\u2019t think that the child\u2019s rights and safety are paramount. I accept, like many in this debate, that Oranga Tamariki has a lot of work to do, but don\u2019t just keep changing the law; help them with their practice, ensure they are complying with the law. And I don\u2019t want to labour the point with Karen Poutasi\u2019s report, but it was heartbreaking to read that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EYou know, we have a law; they\u2019re well designed for a reason. There is a risk to a child, based on their parent\u2019s previous behaviour, that it\u2019s likely to be repeated. If it\u2019s not repeated, that\u2019s great; that\u2019s a bonus. But can we not put an innocent child as the kind of experiment: \u201CWell, let\u2019s just see, shall we? Shall we just see if those parents have reformed? We\u2019ll just put the child in their care even though we know there have been some horrendous things that have happened in the past. Oh, no, no, no, we\u2019ll just leave the next child there. We\u2019re sure it\u2019ll be all good.\u201D Well, unfortunately, history tells us that it\u2019s not. That\u2019s why this provision was put into the bill in the first place, in 2014. That\u2019s why it was put into what was then the vulnerable children\u2019s legislation\u2014\u201Cvulnerable\u201D. They are vulnerable\u2014that\u2019s why they need protection\u2014and this bill strips away fundamental protections and the ability to prevent harm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EI\u2019m proud to be part of a party that focuses on children and reducing harm, not one that is just talking about the numbers of children in State care\u2014as if that\u2019s the measure that counts. No, because when I come to work, I want to know that the work we do in this House not only improves the lives of vulnerable New Zealanders but protects them. And who are the most vulnerable? These children. We\u2019ve seen, with other pieces of legislation that we have been involved with, that Labour\u2019s not listening. As Karen Chhour, the ACT member, quite rightly said, this bill didn\u2019t get the attention it needed, because there was such a furore on the oversight of Oranga Tamariki legislation that I don\u2019t think enough submitters paid attention to this. They know how important it is that we get this right\u2014that a lot of the work still to occur is with Oranga Tamariki and their systems and processes and care practices; it\u2019s not with the law. It is with the oversight to ensure that they are doing what they\u2019re meant to be doing and that they\u2019re doing it in the best way possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EWe want to see, through prevention and early intervention, through a social investment approach, that we can do good better, because our children\u2014every single one of them\u2014deserve it. So it is with no pleasure that I stand in this House to debate this piece of legislation, because I know it will go through. I find it disgusting. I find it disgusting that members in this House are willing to put vulnerable children in the firing line, in the line of harm. National vehemently opposes this legislation to put subsequent children of parents, adults who have killed their children\u2014it\u2019s just simply not right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3cc75330dd74b48a39666954dfbb6dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3cc75330dd74b48a39666954dfbb6dd\u0022\u003EANGELA ROBERTS (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m humbled to rise and take a final call on the Oranga Tamariki Amendment Bill. As I\u2019ve listened to all of the debates, I know that one thing is clear: that everybody stands in this House doing their best to protect our young people, our children, our most vulnerable\u2014but that is where agreement ceases, I understand. I know we\u2019ve had some really gnarly issues being bravely addressed by this bill. I\u2019ve listened to the experts, to the voices that I trust, those people who have worked in the Family Court system, like Dr Henderson, but also from those who have lived through it and given us their advice, as brought to us by Jan Logie today\u2014those voices of intergenerational trauma. We know the law hasn\u2019t been working, and when we talk about damage being done to young people, we know that the way this legislation plays out increases trauma and distress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EI want to just take a moment to thank all of the officials and the Hon Kelvin Davis for doing this difficult mahi and making some real change that will allow everybody that needs to to step in to protect our children and our young people, wrap around them and make sure that their lives aren\u2019t just a matter of survival but that they thrive into the future. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221765d9420570464c80fa4b59b43497a9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Oranga Tamariki Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 76\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000760\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225afa90b2f3304368866c0332f1a9c92d\u0022\u003EWater Services Legislation Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aff33e2d96a64df8b8c683e87c8bff05\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u0022f33d85bc3f7540359c0aa11cf64d6186\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f33d85bc3f7540359c0aa11cf64d6186\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Water Services Legislation Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223b1475be722499cb93b155dcc1145a4\u0022\u003ETEMPORARY SPEAKER (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226023db8fb32c477ab8f9ce7fc7081e6b\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Water Services Legislation Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Finance and Expenditure Committee to consider the bill. At the appropriate time, I intend to move that the bill be reported to the House by 25 May 2023. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EI\u2019m pleased to read this bill for the first time. It\u2019s the next step to ensure that New Zealanders and our communities are better prepared to sustainably finance our water network for better health and environmental outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EI want to start by recognising that there have been years of research and comparative analysis using local and international expertise and extensive consultation with communities, local government, mana whenua, iwi, and industry. Decades of under-investment in our water network have increased its fragility. The tragic Havelock North drinking-water contamination event in 2016 changed the way that we view water infrastructure. It resulted in an inquiry which highlighted systemic failings in our water system. That was not isolated to the Havelock North area and was evidenced by boiled water and no-swim notices that we continue to see to this very day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EWater services are an essential building block for communities. It\u2019s time to stop kicking the can down the road. This bill enables us to take action and establish the roles and functions of our new water services system. When we passed the Water Services Entities Bill this month, we progressed the publicly owned four-entity solution to deal with the significant infrastructure challenges facing drinking water, waste water, and stormwater.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThis is a cost of living issue. The investment needed over the next 30 to 40 years to maintain and upgrade New Zealand\u2019s water infrastructure to the standard required is unaffordable for most communities under current arrangements. Detailed analysis indicates that $120 billion to $185 billion is required to fund our water network over the next 30 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EWe are now at the next milestone with this second bill. It sets out detailed functions and powers of the new water services entities, what they are required to do, the tools they need for their work, and arrangements for the transition to the new system. As a Government, we want to ensure that, come 1 July 2024, the entities will be able to deliver improved water services for communities across the country, big and small. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EI now want to briefly touch on some of the important components of the bill before us. But before I do, I want to remind the House of our four bottom-lines when progressing this reform. They are: ensuring water assets remain in public ownership, ensuring balance sheet separation, ensuring that we give effect to Te Tiriti o Waitangi and te mana o te wai, and ensuring good governance is established in these new entities. Throughout this programme, we\u2019ve continued to listen and make adjustments to the solution that is before us, and we have put the community in the forefront of our thinking through working groups, engaging directly with local government, iwi, M\u0101ori, industry bodies, and submitters. Everyone who has contributed in some shape or form has strengthened our reform. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003ERural water supplies that are owned by local government and provide both drinking water and water for farming-related purposes will be transferred to the water services entities. However, we have recognised that mixed-use rural water supplies are different to those in urban networks and some exceptions may be needed. Based on the recommendation of the Rural Supplies Technical Working Group, some users will be able to seek ownership of their water supplies. I\u2019m grateful to the experts that sat on this group, whose insight helped us with these provisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s no doubt that as a nation we need to spend a lot more on the pipes and other infrastructure that supplies our water services to make up for decades of under-investment to meet future challenges. With better financing, we can achieve these goals more affordably and effectively for all New Zealand families. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThe bill establishes pricing and charging mechanisms to provide fair, transparent, and affordable charges to households and businesses for their water services. Not only will the entities be provided with the legislative authority to charge for their services but an economic regulation and consumer protection regime will be established in a separate bill led by the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThe Rates Rebate Scheme is also being extended to include bills from the entities, facilitated by the requirement of both territorial authorities and water services entities to share specific billing information. For the entities, the information shared is where the bill recipient has applied for a rates rebate, allowing a streamlined application process for beneficiaries of the scheme. For territorial authorities, the information shared will be the rateable value of the property to enable water services entities to charge for stormwater services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EAs we secure an affordable and robust water network, we need to also keep environmental outcomes front of mind. Last year it was reported that at least 270 companies had breached trade-waste consents in 2020. Frankly, this isn\u2019t good enough. Councils, communities, and environmental groups have all said that trade-waste powers needed to be strengthened, and we agree. This bill will enable entities to create the rules they need to manage their water network and control what is discharged back to the environment. There are provisions for compliance, monitoring, and an enforcement regime. Each water services entity will appoint a Director of Compliance and Enforcement and the boards of water services entities must issue compliance and enforcement strategy. Compliance officers will be given the necessary authority to monitor, investigate compliance, and take appropriate steps to enforce where breaches occur, and it will be consistent. These officers will have the powers of entry, search, and seizure, subject to detailed safeguards. There are special arrangements for homes, marae, and other types of M\u0101ori land, where warrantless entry can only occur by consent. This is consistent with other legislative provisions that enable similar things. Under the bill, an infringement regime will be established that allows water services entities to issue fines for minor offences. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EMany of the provisions in the bill reflect powers under the Local Government Act 2002 that have been attempted to align with the powers of other utilities. This includes arrangements for accessing infrastructure on private land, including M\u0101ori land. However, these existing powers are being modified to enhance protections for M\u0101ori land. These regulations can only be made following engagement with the council and mana whenua, who are the subject of the arrangements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EAlongside the Water Service Entities Act, this bill sets out a detailed framework for water reform developed by decades of discussion and more than two years of concentrated work by the Government, local government, mana whenua, and industry partners. It\u2019s our second significant milestone on our journey to improve water services delivery across the whole of Aotearoa New Zealand\u2014communities big and small. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EI stand proud as a part of a Government that tackles overdue issues, instead of putting them in the too-hard basket. It\u2019s true\u2014this issue isn\u2019t easy, nor is it popular. But fixing a problem that has been around for far too long is necessary, and New Zealanders need us to come up with long-life solutions that will help the challenge ahead of them, especially as climate change continues to demonstrate how vulnerable our water network is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EEnough is enough when, just yesterday, one-third of Auckland beaches had no-swim notices due to bacterial contamination from waste-water overflow. We say enough is enough. We say public ownership of our assets and safeguarding against privatisation is a priority\u2014we\u2019ll guarantee that. And we say affordable, robust solutions that will provide effective water services for generations to come so all of our children have the ability to swim in their local stream, lake, river, or beach\u2014it is actually not a luxury but a necessity to the quality of life we will guarantee them if we are brave enough to ensure that tackling the hard solutions is something we\u2019re all committed to. It\u2019s our responsibility to do that, and I commend the bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002257826a39f0ad4e5c800de841e8b36fd2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002257826a39f0ad4e5c800de841e8b36fd2\u0022\u003ETEMPORARY SPEAKER (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00220b0d120df29c4dd89e5b96c8f05134eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b0d120df29c4dd89e5b96c8f05134eb\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise on the Water Services Legislation Bill first reading. This bill is \u201CThree Waters: Part 2\u201D, and this evening I\u2019ll provide an overview in terms of the National Party\u2019s position on this bill and the key areas in which we want to provide comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ENational opposes this bill, and that should not come as any surprise to anyone who is watching this evening. It is our intent that we will repeal and replace this, if elected in 2023. The legislation that we are reviewing this evening was tabled only hours after the Water Services Entities Bill was passed last Thursday morning. This bill that we are talking about this evening significantly expands on the legislation that was passed only last week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIt, in effect, doubles the length of the original bill that was only passed three hours earlier to when this bill was tabled, and it provides a number of provisions and clauses which, in our belief, are ones in which the Government did not want to talk about through the select committee process that nearly 88,000 people made submissions on. What we are going to, in terms of the overview\u2014in terms of the key challenges with this bill\u2014is outline what we see as the issues and then it will go on to select committee, where it\u2019ll go through a thorough process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe key principle in regards to water assets\u2014and the Minister\u2019s articulated in terms of a future state\u2014and no major party within this Parliament does not believe that improvement of water infrastructure is required in this country. The conversation, and the difference, between this side of the House and that is in terms of \u201CHow do we achieve that outcome?\u201D And we still absolutely, categorically do not believe that a four-entity, co-governed, mega-entity model is the model which will deliver the sustainable health outcomes in regards to water infrastructure for this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EWe believe that other alternative models exist which can achieve the requirements about capital expenditure while also managing the constraints around funding and financing, and pressure on consumers in regards to their water bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe other element, of course, is that we still remain committed to the water regulator, Taumata Arowai, and it is our belief that that regulator will play a significant role in terms of dealing with the water-quality aspects which the Minister has articulated has underlying problems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EBut it is very clear that the bill on the table this evening is not going to assist and enable us to get to that future state. There is a number of issues in regards to it, and we have already articulated one of the key aspects in terms of the simple timing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s work our way through some of those components. The first aspect within the bill is in regards to provisions around the charging for water. It\u2019s interesting that a lot of the narrative to date by the Government has been \u201CDon\u2019t worry, your rates aren\u2019t going to go up under this new model. Everything\u2019s going to be fine.\u201D But what they fail to recognise is what\u2019s in this bill is actually water pricing and water charging will actually be undertaken by the new water service entities. So while your rates may not be impacted, you\u2019re going to get another bill in the mail from the water services entity, which will be charging you for that water infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo I think Kiwis can see through the fact that, actually, this is not a zero-sum game. And the reality is that consumers are going to be faced with having to pay the price for the significant bureaucracy and complexity that will be within these water services entities. And we\u2019ve already seen the rampant expenditure in regards to consultants and contractors in those entities, and this bill brings the provisions to actually on-charge those costs to hard-working Kiwis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe second element within the bill that raises a number of concerns that I expect the select committee will get into details into regards the penalties regime. Clause 414, for example, provides a fine of up to $20,000 for an individual who breaks water restrictions. While it\u2019s pretty difficult to get locked up if you do a ram raid, if you leave your sprinkler on, Ian McKelvie, then you might be out for $20,000. You know, we\u2019re talking about years of due diligence reviewing this bill before it came to the House, but some of these things\u2014look, and that\u2019s fair enough; it was only one clause. But let\u2019s move on to new section 407, set out in clause 22, which is undertaking works if you\u2019re next to a stormwater network asset, of which parks and reserves and the majority of parks and reserves are in scope. So if you dig a hole in your backyard, Matt Doocey, and you don\u2019t notify the mega-entity before you dig your hole, then you could get a bill for up to $100,000 per individual. I\u2019m not making this up. Have a look at new section 407\u2014and I know it\u2019s Christmas, but I\u2019m not going to go on on any more of those clauses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ENew section 372, set out in clause 22, also provides provisions for entry to premises without a warrant\u2014and I see the Hon Mark Mitchell\u2019s just walked into the House\u2014for checking water meters and stuff like that. I mean, I think I\u2019ve covered enough in terms of the penalties regime within this bill that are going to be pretty much open to quite a significant element of review within that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EWe talked about the ownership of water assets, and the key differential between this side of the House and the Government is that we believe that water assets should be controlled and owned by local communities and local councils, not in bureaucratic, non-democratic mega-entities. These reforms, reinforced through the asset transfer mechanisms that are within this bill, are that these assets will not remain under the control of local communities, and that is a significant issue. This lack of ownership is particularly concerning for those communities that have funded these assets over generations and generations. This bill will see the usual rights and responsibilities of ownership transferred across to those mega-entities, and the territorial authorities will not have the power over those. This will just simply increase that degree of tension that the community have raised through the submission process on the Water Services Entities Bill, and it definitely will not make it better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EChanges in regards to stormwater are interesting. The Government have taken the decision to remove transport stormwater systems from the stormwater networks. So if you live in rural\u2014particularly in Northland, potentially, you think about all of the stormwater networks up there, pretty much 70 percent, 80 percent of stormwater in Northland would be on the side of the road, so all of those corridors are now excluded from this bill. So what\u2019s that going to mean for your roads up in Northland? Well, I can tell you what. I can pretty much guess where the maintenance in that is going to go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe issue around that brings more complexity and confusion to a bill in regards to\u2014in effect, I sort of worked out that it was three waters, and then it got two more waters added, so it\u2019s five waters. We\u2019re now taking half the stormwater out, so it\u2019s four and a half waters now, I think is where I\u2019m at, but I\u2019m sure by the end of the select committee process it\u2019ll be at a different number. But that sort of shows the mockery in regards to, you know, all of these years of planning, and we\u2019re still making significant changes in regards to the scope of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI want to get into the changes around the Treaty provisions and Te Mana o te Wai statements, because the Government have not missed the opportunity to strengthen the provisions that were in a bill passed only three hours earlier. They\u2019ve now doubled down and increased the provisions in regards to that. Te Mana o te Wai statements\u2014this bill significantly expands those provisions that were set out in the original bill, and that\u2019s in clause 16. The water services entities now must respond and action these statements that are submitted exclusively by mana whenua. It\u2019s also got the provision that the CEO of these water entities, for every report that\u2019s provided to the CEO of the water entity, they must do another report\u2014so we\u2019re into a lot of reports\u2014in terms of how that affects or how that gives effect to the Treaty, for every single report. That\u2019s now in this bill as well, under clause 13. So much for doubling down, but that\u2019s basically what we have seen in regards to this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe other elements in regards to this bill is it also allows the water services entities to set up subsidiary organisations. So we sort of talked about the concept of privatisation and all that stuff. Well, now these entities can go off and create subsidiary organisations underneath them, so I\u2019m not sure why that\u2019s necessary or why that\u2019s required, but again, the select committee are going to need to get into this very thoroughly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EMadam Speaker, I\u2019d love another 10 minutes, but I know you\u2019re not going to give it to me\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e22117ab25e446e0a3145a01366004b2\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019m not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2c3e3090f704dfdb2101cf3f6575ae8\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: But in context, I really am looking forward to a thorough assessment by the Finance and Expenditure Committee. This bill is a dog. It is an absolute dog. It is absolutely \u201CThree Waters: Part Two\u201D. This is a trilogy that has got a sad ending. But for those at home, the ending is coming soon, so I do not commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u00226b2bf58aa76d47edab8b172c8e8f1561\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b2bf58aa76d47edab8b172c8e8f1561\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E This bill is a technical one. It\u2019s nuts and bolts, basically to sort the pipes, and that is about getting clean, safe drinking water, stormwater, waste water for all New Zealanders. It\u2019s a technical bill. It basically allows fairness of pricing. It allows the transfer of assets and liabilities to happen in a timely way by 1 July 2024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWithout reforms, all New Zealanders will face significant hikes. Now, we didn\u2019t say that they wouldn\u2019t face hikes, but the hikes will be significant\u2014including in Auckland, the projected hikes without the reforms would be doubled over the next 10 years to 2031.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EIn Kaka Point, in my own electorate, they were recently\u2014in fact, they may still be\u2014on boiled water notices because of broken pipes. This is the nuts-and-bolts bill that gets us through the next phase of three waters. I proudly commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00220cfa1a661693420a86cf0a9e18f210d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220cfa1a661693420a86cf0a9e18f210d6\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I was waiting for the explanation of this\u2014how many pages is this bill? I\u2019m just waiting\u2014217-page bill. I thought that the Labour member might have just spent a little bit of time going through it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ee1337bd78c42b4aa22de334e09366a\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: Sixty seconds. Gone in 60 seconds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b889ebd1e17a42a4a96644134ec85891\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014but gee, 60 seconds was it? Sixty-seven seconds. And nuts and bolts: why don\u2019t you just miss out the bolts bit and start off with nuts, because that\u2019s what this bill is. As my good colleague Simon Watts highlighted, yes, this is stage 2, but wait for it. Do not disappear, because after this one we\u2019ve got stage 3 coming up, which, hopefully\u2014oh, I don\u2019t know whether we\u2019re going to get to that tonight. But if you\u2019re listening at home, tune in at about 9 o\u2019clock tomorrow morning, because we\u2019ll be into the third instalment of this beautiful cascade of water bills!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ENow, I just don\u2019t think my colleagues are taking this seriously enough, because what I see in this bill is quite serious, actually. But I do find it amazing, as my good colleague mentioned, this bill has added 275\u2014I\u2019ll just repeat that, 275\u2014new clauses that were introduced immediately following the passage of the last bill. And here we are; we\u2019re back in the debating chamber\u2014and I\u2019ve just worked it out; I got my phone out\u2014131 hours after we debated the last bill to go through this and look at how we address the first bill. That is outrageous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8e37f13666c4a24bfbf0aa56b128e0f\u0022\u003ENicola Grigg\u003C/span\u003E: Shoddy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3ea0b65f90c49d8bc0511c708a24aae\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: That is shoddy workmanship, not only by the Minister but I think also by many of the officials, I\u2019ve got to say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThis is the type of detail that in the select committee\u2014and I look across the House at members of the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2014we have been seeking this advice so we had a context for the first bill. And without it, it was pretty hard to understand how it was all going to work. But this bill\u2014131 hours later, here we are in the House, we\u2019re going to have a chat. And I do find all the issues around compliance absolutely staggering. I was just checking, and there are five or six pages all about compliance. So as my good colleague highlighted, if you dig a hole\u2014and I think the Government is digging a really big hole\u2014that\u2019s $100,000, if you happen to put it in the wrong spot near a stormwater asset; $20,000 for breaking a sprinkler water ban. But the other things are\u2014there\u2019s just pages of them; honestly, there are pages of them. I\u2019ve been looking at them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ECompliance starts at clause 380. And if you just roll over to clause 397(1) \u201CA person commits an offence if the person negligently engages in conduct relating to a wastewater network that causes a specified serious risk.\u201D Well, I\u2019m not quite sure\u2014I don\u2019t think specified serious risk is defined. But if you do, I don\u2019t know who determines that, but you are also up for a fine of $100,000; and for a body corporate, $600,000. Discharging trade waste, up to $500,000 and $3 million. And I heard the Minister talking about I think it was 275 trade waste claims or allegations. And I\u2019ve just got a note that there was 535,000 small businesses in New Zealand, about 350,000 operating. So as a percentage, it\u2019s a pretty low percentage, but gee don\u2019t get caught out. And Mr McKelvie, on your farm, for God\u2019s sake, don\u2019t do something wrong, because you\u2019ll be up for, as an individual, well, it\u2019s hard to determine, but it might be personally\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1b9fefe146f4af7a1f67c3a1a743996\u0022\u003EIan McKelvie\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m very worried that a cow might break a trough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d702714f843e4dc9affaefaffbc933a6\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, a cow does break a trough. But, look, this bill has some significant issues around compliance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe other thing is the ownership that this bill clearly sets out. One of the big things is around the so-called perception that the councils still own these water assets even though the assets and liabilities have been transferred to a new Crown entity of some sort. I\u2019ve got to say to you this is a legal point, and for some reason it\u2019s never really been debated properly. But it is clear that the councils, first of all, will have no right to appoint the directors. They can only do it through a regional representative group, and that group is the one charged with ultimately appointing the board. So there\u2019s no direct right to appoint a director, and that\u2019s normally the first thing\u2014the first thing\u2014in terms of determining ownership.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe second one is that there is no right for councils to exercise a direct vote. So that\u2019s the second point about ownership. The third thing is there is no right for a council to receive a dividend, and that is the third element of ownership. The fourth issue is there\u2019s no right of the council, or the owners\u2014so-called owners\u2014to provide financing to the water companies. They\u2019re precluded under the legislation. That is the fourth element of ownership. And the fifth one: there\u2019s no right to set the direction of the business. Normally, owners set the direction of the business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo, on five counts, the councils will have no direct ability to influence it, appoint the directors, vote, provide funding, or, in fact, receive a dividend. My view all along is that whilst the Minister and the Labour Government have claimed that the councils will continue to own the shares of these assets, in legal terms that cannot be the case, because the councils simply do not have the specific rights of ownership that are understood well in law. I think this is one of the big misnomers about this whole thing, that there\u2019s going to be continued ownership by councils.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBut the final point I\u2019m going to raise is around the question of rates and the so-called minimisation of costs, and, of course, against the backdrop of the $180 billion that was assessed by the Scottish adviser that was required. Of course, there is a huge amount of dispute about it, including from reputable economic commentators or analysts like Castalia, who are well known for standing up in the courts of the High Court and Supreme Court and debating economic issues, which was written off within a matter of minutes by both the Government and the advisers as being discreditable advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe issue about this is if you are taking the assets away from the councils, which is clearly going to happen, the funding for that will disappear out of councils but it will end up in the new entities, but already we\u2019ve seen some of the increased cost coming through with the new head office announced in Auckland, the ripple effect of that going through, the cost of delivery of water to New Zealand consumers. Mums and dads living in places like Eket\u0101huna, Kait\u0101ia, and Pukekohe will all be in a situation where, over time, their cost of water delivery will go up, their cost for waste-water delivery and services will go up, and, ultimately, we will see some substantial decrease in what it means for the rights of consumers to be able to influence how these water entities operate, because, simply, they will be unaccountable. They\u2019ll be four head offices, and they will not be accountable to the general public of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThat is why these reforms are so flawed and the reason why National stands and opposes these reforms, as we will be doing shortly with the third element of this triumvirate number of bills that we\u2019re debating on this issue. This is a bad piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u002261d0442837744905b3c2059713c4fac3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261d0442837744905b3c2059713c4fac3\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s wonderful to speak on the Water Services Legislation Bill the second, and then we\u2019ll get to the third\u2014I\u2019m not sure which one Andrew Bayly was speaking to\u2014water services legislation bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s very clear: on 12 December, the New Zealand Herald printed, headlined, \u201CAuckland\u2019s beaches impacted by high levels of faecal bacteria after rainfall\u201D. That follows a number of media articles: \u201CMore than 50 Auckland beaches declared no-swim zones\u201D; \u201CFaecal warning at Auckland\u2019s beaches following downpour\u201D; December 2020, \u201CSix Auckland beaches have swimming alerts at the start of summer\u201D. The list goes on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve got through the first phase, the Water Services Bill. Here we are; we\u2019re moving through to implementation. We have to ask ourselves, what are we really up for\u2014we\u2019ve said time and time again, we all agree that reform is required. Yet, the response from the other side continues to be \u201Cwe will repeal three waters.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EBut the reality is, you haven\u2019t put an alternative. I continue to challenge the Opposition to tell us what you will do, because Aucklanders\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022351351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cca379e8d3346d782a7eeb7deba7460\u0022\u003ETEMPORARY SPEAKER (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t bring the Speaker into the debate, Mr Halbert.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224753f914e68e49288239d9c8d543e866\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: Apologies, Madam Speaker\u2014because Aucklanders demand that we have clean beaches. We need to take action, and this particular bills moves us through an implementation. I look forward to the Finance and Expenditure Committee receiving it, and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u0022250fd37143914823b1534c2b2da5f775\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022250fd37143914823b1534c2b2da5f775\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare. I\u2019m pleased to take a call on the Water Services Legislation Bill. So we know that four water services entities are going to take over responsibility for service delivery and infrastructure for three waters from local authorities on 1 July 2024. Those four entities will provide three waters services to 85 percent of the population: around 4.3 million New Zealanders. The remainder of the population have got their own supplies or are on small community or private schemes. The Parliament passed the Water Services Entities Bill last Thursday that established the governance, accountability, and reporting arrangements for the entities, and included some of the transitional arrangements and the Department of Internal Affairs oversight powers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo this bill is the third in a package of four bills. The first one, the Taumata Arowai bill, establishing Taumata Arowai as a regulatory agency, we supported. The Greens opposed the Water Services Entities Bill at its third reading last week, and that was largely because of the failure to secure the protections against privatisation of the new corporate entities because we favoured a council-controlled organisation model such as Watercare, where it was very clear\u2014point of order, Mr Speaker. The members in front of me are talking quite loudly. Would it be possible for them to be quiet?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296a69115bef04d3ebf137a81e746195c\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, we accept that heckling is allowed, but as long as\u2014I understand\u2014it\u2019s witty and infrequent. If the Speaker could just clarify.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242d309fc7f16428fbd6b55d1e597822e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I certainly will, thank you very much. The reality is that members on the cross benches\u2014and there are Speakers\u2019 rulings; I haven\u2019t got them in front of me right now\u2014need to be mindful, need to adjust the volume so that the member can be heard. Every member has the right to be heard in the debate. And so the Hon Eugenie Sage has felt the need to express that, and so I just want to let members know on the cross benches they should be not so loud as to interfere with the giving of the speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fa24726ecf14446808f4164bdbd543d\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. So because we favoured the council-controlled entity model; because we favour seven not four entities, because we think seven entities would better reflect regional boundaries, catchment boundaries; because we wanted stormwater to stay with councils, we won\u2019t be supporting this bill because it provides the mechanics of how the entities will actually operate. It provides the details of how the assets and liabilities which local authorities currently hold will be transferred to the entities. It provides a lot of detail on the functions and powers of the entities that they will have in place of our local authorities, and the regulatory functions and powers so that the entities can make the rules to provide for three waters and also engage in compliance and enforcement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EIt would have been very helpful if the Minister had talked about subsidiaries, which the bill enables, because it was very clear that the entities are not-for-profit Crown agencies\u2014they don\u2019t pay a dividend, as the previous speaker noted. But this bill provides for the establishment of subsidiaries which are able to pay dividends and there\u2019s quite a lot of detail in Schedule 5 about that but it\u2019s unclear as to whether these subsidiaries are to enable public-private partnerships or exactly what they are for. So the Greens have got some concerns about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EIn terms of the regulatory powers and functions that the bill provides for, it means that the entities can establish controlled drinking-water catchment areas such as Watercare operates in the Hunua Ranges and the Waitakere Ranges. We think this provision should have more power because the entities cannot make any rules about what happens in that land area unless they have the permission of the landowner. And if it\u2019s good enough under the replacement for the Resource Management Act to be able to have designations for renewable drinking water, the Greens think we need to be able to give much more attention to protecting our water sources, which is what controlled drinking water catchments should be all about, and controlling the activities that occur in those catchments. And while the Government is saying that the entities will mean that in a generation or so we will get swimmable rivers, I would like to point out that, yes, some of our rivers are polluted because of waste-water discharges, but it is generally the land uses in catchments\u2014particularly, intensive agriculture\u2014that has led to the pollution of rivers, not always three waters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe bill also includes pricing and charging arrangements for water services, and it signals a move away from these being paid by rates to an approach which involves direct billing of homeowners. Currently, households pay an average of about $1,300 annually for three waters, and it is $1,400 annually in Auckland. It\u2019s much lower in smaller councils where those councils haven\u2019t been investing adequately and aren\u2019t covering depreciation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe Department of Internal Affairs says that this regime will be more affordable, and I think the jury is obviously out on that. The charges will be paid by property owners, regardless of whether they are in residence or not, and they\u2019ll be passed on by landlords to renters. I understand that Internal Affairs considered direct charges on tenants and residents, but decided that that regime would be too complex. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EBut here the Greens have some concerns, because access to drinking water is a basic human right. We want to see more clarity around what basic allocations of water will be provided to households. What are the guard rails around the entity\u2019s ability to restrict water supply as a compliance measure, and what are the guard rails around the penalties on unpaid water charges? We want much more certainty around what a minimum sufficient water supply is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EWhile the bill doesn\u2019t provide for a free base allocation of water, it does set some pricing principles. But we note that entities such as\u2014well, Watercare has got very clear policy in this area about when restrictions on supply can be imposed, and a clear policy that if it\u2019s in doubt about the situation of a household and whether it\u2019s got people who are elderly or with medical or health concerns, it does not restrict supply. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo there are certainly some mechanisms in the bill to protect vulnerable citizens with this concept of geographic average pricing to smooth out and share costs across communities, but there are also provisions for volumetric pricing. That\u2019s certainly a mechanism for encouraging water conservation, and in places like Christchurch, where the city council has installed water meters but doesn\u2019t use them, it is now concerned about the inadequate attention to water conservation. But volumetric pricing can also potentially penalise large households, which may use a certain volume per person which would be smaller than a small household, but they end up paying more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo there is a power for the Minister to set regulations to limit the proportion of the entity\u2019s charges which are volumetric. We\u2019d like to see a bit more detail around that. We\u2019re pleased that there\u2019s an ability to include water charges as part of a claim for a rates rebate, but we do want to see a few more of these guard rails to protect vulnerable communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EOne of the other reasons we are opposing the bill is the provision around rural water supplies, which the Minister outlined. That means that rural water supplies, which are currently operated by local authorities for the provision of drinking water and also to provide water for irrigation for agriculture and horticulture\u2014they go across to the entities. But then if the entities get approached by an alternative supplier, they can make that decision after a referendum that the water supply be transferred across, because\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a698c5a873564c23a5a02f068bcedcde\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Nonsense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232c8d53c94b6407683ff97183490ccf8\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the ACT member is saying, \u201CNonsense.\u201D The ACT member should actually read the bill. So this provision to allow for transfer, we see as the privatisation of valuable water, which agribusiness will benefit from, because we have got these mixed-use rural supplies in areas like Canterbury, where the council has subsidised the taking of water from rivers like the Hakatere / Ashburton to provide for drinking water but also for stock water and irrigation. If those schemes are privatised, it means that the rivers continue to suffer and the farmers get the benefit of all that investment and subsidies from the past communities. The ACT members are objecting to this, but that is just typical. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo that privatisation of these rural water supply schemes is another reason that we are opposing the bill going to select committee. Nevertheless, we\u2014unlike some members of the Opposition\u2014will be working hard to improve the bill. We will be reading submissions closely and will take a constructive approach. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00227e283ae320f14d85b6b0f33cedf924b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e283ae320f14d85b6b0f33cedf924b3\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. ACT agrees there is a need for reform in the way three waters infrastructure is funded, delivered, and maintained. I read with disappointment about the waste-water overflows in Auckland and that beaches are closed for swimming. Where I launch my kayak in Henderson Creek, Te Wai o Pereira, there\u2019s a very large waste-water network pipe that brings sewage and waste water from all the suburbs of the north-west in Auckland past the boat ramp where our waka ama club, where our multi-sport club, and where our rowing club launch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019ve met with Auckland Council\u2019s own Watercare and they told me that the fix will cost a billion dollars and take about 10 years. Now, that\u2019s the same as the cost to fix the central interceptor in Auckland which is going to have the result of cleaning up all the beaches in central Auckland so people can swim. Now, Watercare said to me it\u2019s not the money that\u2019s missing. It\u2019s not that the money isn\u2019t there to invest; it\u2019s the system that central government has given local government to work in that\u2019s broken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThis problem\u2019s developed over generations and the fault lies firmly with central government and the architecture they\u2019ve given local government. And despite the best efforts of councils to provide three waters infrastructure, to save and fund its depreciation like \u014Cp\u014Dtiki District Council, which has a fund of $10 million, they told the select committee recently\u2014saved up to build three waters infrastructure\u2014it\u2019s actually central government that\u2019s provided this flawed architecture.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThey collect most of the tax in New Zealand and local government is dependent on handouts\u2014the system can be changed and ACT has a plan to change it. But it seems almost unbelievable that Parliament is here again, at almost 10 o\u2019clock at night, debating\u2014and tomorrow under extended sitting conditions\u2014more of this terrible three waters legislation. Labour keeps forcing this legislation through, but the ACT Party says don\u2019t bother; stop now, save your effort, because there\u2019s going to be a change of Government next year and ACT\u2019s going to repeal it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c161788ef174a81a751655791b55e30\u0022\u003EMatt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right\u2014listen to Jamie Strange.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c1766e8f0854261b9fb2d8ccc2edc04\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Now, this Water Services Legislation Bill\u2014that\u2019s right, Mr Doocey. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e22556d4949f40f28db8e4809291bebd\u0022\u003EMatt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: Jamie knows.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c80ddb260dc44a92a655169c39e5881d\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Jamie knows. The Water Services Legislation Bill gives these new entities the powers to take local control away\u2014[Interruption]\u2014Anna Lorck\u2014from Hawke\u2019s Bay councils, for example, and centralise it. Now, ACT\u2019s going to vote against this bill. We\u2019ve proposed an alternative water infrastructure plan which I\u2019m happy to share with the House, with listeners on 882AM, and with those at home watching Parliament TV. Here\u2019s ACT\u2019s water infrastructure plan. Firstly, ACT supported standing up the water quality regulator Taumata Arowai. We need a water quality regulator, but we\u2019ve got one. Taumata Arowai starts their work very soon to regulate water quality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ELabour\u2019s wasted millions on taxpayer funded propaganda ad campaigns to try to convince people this legislation\u2019s necessary. They\u2019ve tried to bribe councils with \u201Cno worse off, better off\u201D funding to try to get them on board, but $2.5 million in debt\u2019s going to be dumped into these new water entities on day one; it\u2019s completely unnecessary. But when none of this worked, Labour\u2019s pushing ahead anyway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, this current system\u2019s not up to scratch but these reforms are not going to cut it. Taking control of council\u2019s assets away from communities is wrong. Moving assets from one Government department to another is wrong\u2014[Interruption]\u2014Anna Lorck. Rural water users and communities will be captured by these new water corporations who will have an ability to manage their entire catchment and to tell water users how much water they get and who gets it. New Zealanders think this responsibility should, in fact, lie with democratically elected local councils which represent the needs of their communities, not appointed entities benefiting from the work that Nanaia Mahuta and her cohort have done to take the assets off councils and allocate them to unelected co-governed bodies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266f2e44ed808444fb1e9b4ef5f1cc9eb\u0022\u003EDamien Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Undemocratic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f751ae853d4c4f498d829e94a017dd76\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Undemocratic. And the worse aspect of this reform is divisive co-government. It\u2019s totally inappropriate to give iwi M\u0101ori organisations a seat at the table just because of who their ancestors were. All New Zealanders want safe and clean drinking water. The requirement to give effect to these vague Te Mana o te Wai statements will simply wrap these water entities up in red tape, and is a recipe for endless litigation and political mischief.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBecause there\u2019s no show without Punch, this bill adds to the usual Te Tiriti boilerplate and vague Te Mana o te Wai stuff by requiring the chief executives of these water entities to report on how the entity is giving effect to the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi and Te Mana o te Wai.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, goodness me, I\u2019m a civil engineer. When I became a civil engineer, no one said, \u201CIf you ever get to be the chief executive of a water corporation, your job will be to give effect to the principles of the Treaty.\u201D I thought it\u2019d be to build pipes and to deliver services to communities so we can build affordable homes. Who knew?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo Labour and their dwindling group of cheerleaders ask, \u201CWhat would ACT do?\u201D What would ACT do, Anna Lorck? What a good question, Anna. Our purpose is, \u201CBetter public policy which benefits New Zealanders.\u201D Better public policy. Policy that protects property rights, promotes the benefits that more private sector brings to the delivery of basic services like water. That\u2019s a purpose that more and more New Zealanders are getting behind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EHere\u2019s a practical example of what that would mean for the delivery of water services: infrastructure and service land for housing. ACT\u2019s water infrastructure plan would provide for councils to enter voluntary shared services arrangements. Actually, Hawke\u2019s Bay councils came to select committee and told those on the Finance and Expenditure Committee that they were already doing that and they didn\u2019t need this legislation. So I\u2019m surprised that the member for Tukituki, Anna Lorck, didn\u2019t let her friends in the Labour Party know that problem\u2019s resolved. It gives the benefits of scale while retaining local control.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWe would establish long-term central government and local government partnerships\u2014partnership agreements which would plan water infrastructure upgrades tailored to specific regions and local needs. We would establish public-private partnerships.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022070a9deb372e4979aed47489ce4b7943\u0022\u003EHelen White\u003C/span\u003E: Privatisation coming through, thick and strong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022109e6c3cb00c4598ad97edbad36c9bc2\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right. To attract investment from financial entities such as KiwiSaver funds, ACC, iwi, investment funds\u2014your KiwiSaver even, Helen White.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EExpand the exemption, we would, for domestic suppliers from single dwellings to include all those small water schemes servicing rural communities of up to 30 users\u2014mostly rural users. And ACT would let councils keep half the GST on new builds because that\u2019s an incentive to sign off more consents, get more homes built, and actually provides a cash flow of around $2 billion per annum based on the current rate of house construction which councils can use to finance debt and to fund new and upgrade existing infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWe can improve the current system, but we don\u2019t need to do it through State-mandated centralisation and allowing some people to have more influence than others based on their ethnicity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ELabour doesn\u2019t care about the awful sense of division that their obsession with co-governance and the Treaty of Waitangi is having on New Zealand. They don\u2019t care about the awful sense of division, discord, and disconnection that\u2019s caused in our communities. It\u2019s wrong. The ACT Party says it\u2019s wrong to do this to New Zealand. It\u2019s wrong to pretend to use our drinking water and our beach water quality to push this co-governance agenda through on New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EACT believes it\u2019s time to get this country out of the ditch this Labour Government\u2019s driven us into. We believe, now more than ever, it falls to the ACT Party to do something; to restore that sense of inclusion that I felt as a Kiwi growing up in New Zealand. ACT will respect the communities who\u2019ve spoken out against three waters reform, and we will repeal it if we have the privilege\u2014if New Zealanders give us the privilege\u2014of being part of the future Government. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022b66988899f95439fbbdbd9700975e12c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b66988899f95439fbbdbd9700975e12c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is suspended, and I will resume the Chair at 9 a.m. tomorrow for the extended sitting. P\u014D m\u0101rie.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213c173a7ba230c4859b96d91f5c9efd048000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 10.01 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Wednesday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002260626875f3ac4d5e971a719a4dc5b8ad\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 13 DECEMBER 2022\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a2f38da670094b099d986a3889f6d0e9\u0022\u003E(continued on Wednesday, 14 December 2022)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f6e3bec0e3a44c13a8838b56dec6c4b9\u0022\u003EWater Services Legislation Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e720e3ad15c34fa98810a11eb6ff3502\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00221e9fb4e1f59946e09bd1ca199f5c45da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e9fb4e1f59946e09bd1ca199f5c45da\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The House is resumed. Members, when the House rose for the evening, we were considering the first reading of the Water Services Legislation Bill. I call\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u002238adc371d76b41c19e9be72e7f2fa6a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002238adc371d76b41c19e9be72e7f2fa6a7\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Helen White.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022237237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c99e92bf5ce455f95217db7f10fce1d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: No, no; you just say\u2014you just seek the call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3649d18a172472d8b9d76c515cd34f1\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022941ced04584c40d2aa5ec5593b42e6fc\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: I call Helen White.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238a7a52b36e64547901c4c94be0c48c4\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: I thought you had forgotten my name. Ha, ha! Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m going to take a very short call on this matter, because this is a second bill in a series of bills, and what it is doing is really putting the infrastructure behind an infrastructure plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThere is a $31 billion deficit in infrastructure every year, according to the Infrastructure Commission. There has been legislation brought in to really make sure that our water pipes and the infrastructure that supply water to all our communities is actually up to scratch. It hasn\u2019t been up to scratch for a very long time and we\u2019ve had some tragedy as a result of that, and we never want to see that repeated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWe also have a situation in Auckland where we can\u2019t swim at a lot of our most beautiful beaches, and that\u2019s because it rained in the weekend, and so we just couldn\u2019t swim in those beaches any more. That\u2019s utterly unacceptable in a city as beautiful as Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo this piece of legislation just focuses on what my friends called \u201Cthe nuts and bolts\u201D last night. It\u2019s all the things that really just make things tick. It\u2019s about things like compliance. It\u2019s about infringement. It\u2019s about being able to go on site and actually check the water meters. It\u2019s about pricing and charging structures. It\u2019s about asset management plans, infrastructure plans, and pricing plans. That\u2019s a very necessary part of what we need to do in this to make it work and function. Our committee will be looking at the detail and making sure that it\u2019s fit for purpose. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022 data-id=\u0022c088d667aab240f386d52bdd72367c5f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c088d667aab240f386d52bdd72367c5f\u0022\u003ENICOLA GRIGG (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise in absolute opposition to this Water Services Legislation Bill, and I was struck by a thought this morning as the whole Chamber gathered to listen to President Zelenskyy\u2019s address. I thought, here is an example of a leader that is relentlessly focused on the issues that really matter to his people, in stark contrast to a Government we have here focused on ideological, nonsensical, irrelevant projects that will do nothing to enable the lives of the people of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EThis just feels like a terrible, terrible recurring dream. Just last week, the House passed the Water Services Act\u2014it\u2019s now in law; it\u2019s an Act\u2014and three hours later they drop a 200-page effective amendment bill to it. They\u2019ve been beavering away in their back offices. They didn\u2019t have the guts to bring this to Parliament in the first place, in the first piece of legislation. There are 275 amendments, in this bill, to the original Act that has already been passed. It is a gutless attempt to hide something from the New Zealand public on this, the last day that Parliament is sitting for the year. So they hope to sweep it under the carpet and hope that nobody will notice it\u2019s occurring. I see the press gallery is empty. No one\u2019s here to even report on this stuff, so it\u2019s up to us on this side of the House to actually educate the people of New Zealand as to what this Government is trying to sneak through while everyone goes away on their summer holidays.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EThis bill more than doubles the length of the Water Services Act. It takes it from six parts to 12. It is an absolute insult to those 88,000 New Zealanders that made submissions on the first bill. They have been roundly ignored. Every party in this House, except Labour, objected to that earlier bill. They know it is wrong, and they are once again objecting to this bill and we stand strongly in condemnation to it as well. This bill makes for some shocking reading. It\u2019s an underhanded attempt from Labour to make changes to its own legislation, and the big thing it didn\u2019t want to talk about in the first bill is what is contained in here\u2014it is the pricing of water. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EIt is so cynical from Labour to be bringing this up on the last day of Parliament. But it\u2019s not just the pricing; you go through this stuff and see just the layers and layers and layers of bureaucracy and complexity and plans and compliance, and it is entirely convoluted. I just had a look at the regulatory functions in the section on regulatory functions. There\u2019s a list of plans and bureaucracy. We\u2019ve got drinking-water management plans, stormwater management plans, stormwater network rules, service agreements with bill payers, network connections, requirements of network protection rules, notification requirements, and so on and so on and so on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EBut the best part, I think, is the enforceable restrictions on drinking water for the use of water conservation. That means \u201Cfines\u201D. The enforceable restriction on drinking water\u2014the New Zealand public can read that as \u201Cfines\u201D. It is a revenue-gathering vehicle for this Government that was too gutless to bring it out in the first piece of legislation. It goes on to say it is now going to foist upon councils the responsibility of taking on the on-charges of the on-payments because they couldn\u2019t get themselves sorted to do it themselves. Let\u2019s be very clear: Labour has deliberately avoided talking about these technicalities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EI think, however, though, in the short time I\u2019ve got left, the most gobsmacking section in this is the punitive language around compliance and enforcement. This bill creates a director of compliance and enforcement for each of the entities, it decrees that each board will create a compliance and enforcement strategy, it\u2019s going to have compliance officers with what I read as stronger powers than the New Zealand Police. In their comprehensive offence and infringement regime, it\u2019s going to issue them with issues for directions of compliance orders, remedial action, and ways to recover costs. Can you imagine if the New Zealand Police were given these sorts of compliance tools? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EThis bill is a complete mockery to the 88,000 New Zealanders who made a submission on the first bill. It\u2019s already been set in law. The National Party has said we will repeal it in Government, just like we will the first piece of abominable legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022 data-id=\u0022b63dfeb5d5ae4d7f9d160f2de8871618\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b63dfeb5d5ae4d7f9d160f2de8871618\u0022\u003EANNA LORCK (Labour\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. This is a serious piece of legislation that we are going to be going through, and I speak to it because what is gobsmacking is that the National Party has not even bothered to look at what\u2019s coming through in this bill. If they took the time to actually look at it, there\u2019s a very, very important piece coming through in here about subsidiaries, and that is something that I think the councils, as shareholders in this public entity\u2014the four entities\u2014will be very interested in. It\u2019s this type of information, important information, in here that we need to get to select committee, and that\u2019s why I\u2019m looking forward to seeing this through to the select committee. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00222563d6d0a21846a59b379ae51c9f4d03\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222563d6d0a21846a59b379ae51c9f4d03\u0022\u003ERACHEL BROOKING (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. As we\u2019ve heard in this House, this bill follows the Water Services Entities Bill that we passed last week. It was well signalled that there was going to be a succession of bills, and we\u2019re going to be talking about another one shortly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThat last bill set up the four entities, and this bill really colours in what it is that those entities can and can\u2019t do. Of course, a lot of the powers and responsibilities referenced in other speeches already exist in some form or other in local government legislation, so I think that is going to be really useful for the select committee to get good advice on how the powers in the Local Government Act 2002 and the Local Government Act 1974 and rating powers all interact with this piece of legislation. It\u2019s going to be a good job for the select committee to do. I\u2019m hope I\u2019m able to be a part of it. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022222e7d2ab5c44d938ae43e67df394d36\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022222e7d2ab5c44d938ae43e67df394d36\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY (National\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m looking forward to taking my 10 minutes this morning, I\u2019m just trying to work out where I might start\u2014there\u2019s a plethora of issues to prosecute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003ELook, you know, it\u2019s always good to start in a speech, maybe, with some wise words or learned words from wise people. I\u2019ll start with a gentleman, one Jamie Strange, the Labour Hamilton East MP, who announced his retirement, and who said yesterday, \u201CI feel I am better suited for Government than Opposition.\u201D\u2014\u201CI feel I am better suited for Government than Opposition.\u201D Of course, Mr Strange announced his retirement because he didn\u2019t want to go into Opposition. And, see, the Government backbenchers sit there and they wonder why their colleagues are leaving, ahead of going into Opposition, when they stand up and offer 90 seconds to a bill that no one wants\u2014one of the most unpopular bills that I think I\u2019ve seen come before the House in the eight years I\u2019ve been here. And, then, you\u2019ve got Labour MPs openly saying they\u2019re retiring because they don\u2019t want to be in Opposition next year. And they scratch their heads and say, \u201CWhy are the polls tanking?\u201D Well, I\u2019ll tell you what, the polls are tanking because the public does not trust you anymore. You\u2019ll spend more time standing next to sports professionals, getting photos, than you will standing up in this House and defending your own bill. That\u2019s what you\u2019re doing at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022760b0fd39da0488682f999265077ac0b\u0022\u003EHon Dr David Clark\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I don\u2019t think it\u2019s appropriate that the member says that you cannot be trusted, Madam Speaker; I think you can. Both you and I are retiring at the next election. I wish you well, and I think you\u2019re done a disservice with that comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7312cd0045e4b9b8ab259e4ccb29da5\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022327432af040544d1b69eea027ff63d18\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, no, thank you. I just want to do this right, so I\u2019m just going to take a bit of advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ELook, thank you for that point of order. And, yes, it is the last day of school and it\u2019s a contentious bill, and it\u2019s getting a bit willing. I\u2019d like the House to reflect, first of all, on not bringing the Speaker into the debate. But also let\u2019s not just skate too close to that line of causing offence in the House. I don\u2019t think we\u2019re there in this instance, but I\u2019d like us to play between the posts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022458636e848574a6498342732a62c9349\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. In my view, I do not believe the public trust this Government when they do things like they\u2019ve done with this bill. People will be looking at this speech and wondering whether it\u2019s live or on demand. And, I must say, my on-demand speech from last week, I thought, was pretty good, so I\u2019m not surprised they\u2019re watching it again. But, in fact, we\u2019re actually live because we are debating another bill that was tabled three hours after they rammed through the Water Services Entities Bill last week. Three hours afterwards, they drop a 200-page bill that amends the legislation we passed this week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EAnd then they wonder why the public is trusting them less and less, because how is the public to trust this Government when they play games like this\u2014a bill that\u2019s in fact an omnibus bill that\u2019s going to amend 25 Acts. It inserts 275 new clauses. It amends a bill we only passed last week. And I remember speaking in this House with the first sequencing of all these water bills, using the analogy that we were flying a plane while we were building it, and now you can see why that actually was happening\u2014because the Government did not want us to see the design of the plane in advance or its destination. That\u2019s why this has been drip-fed through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EBut what I can say to the people listening today is make sure you make a submission on this bill. Some 88,000 people made a submission on the Water Services Entities Bill, and, as we know, only 227 were heard. They only went round the country for five days. My plea to the Government is to make sure you hear a lot more submitters for this bill, because, mark my words, you are going to get tens of thousands of submissions. The reason why: people don\u2019t want this bill, and that\u2019s why you\u2019re going to receive a lot of submissions on it. We get lectured by the Government MPs who get up and say for their 90 seconds, \u201CWell, if the Opposition had taken time to look at this bill\u201D\u2014\u201Ctaken time to look at this bill\u201D. What part does the Government play in actually not putting the bill through last week? Why did you split the bill up? Still haven\u2019t had one Government MP\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229991a2e659ca4f3cb294d5165c58f23c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Please don\u2019t bring the Speaker into the debate. This is a very willing debate, and the Speaker does not wish to be included.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223232aa390e21453f99198fe85ddcfce5\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY\u003C/span\u003E: Apologies, Madam Speaker. But we would like to hear from the Government callers today, if they could just squeeze it in to their 90 seconds: why is this bill before us on the last day of Parliament? A submission process over the summer break. Answer that. And what I want to know is: how are we now in a position where we had three waters and now we\u2019ve got five waters, and now it\u2019s five waters and some parks? Look at the headlines in the Christchurch Press this week: \u201CThree Waters entity expected to take control of swathe of Christchurch red zone\u201D. The water entity is going to take ownership of ratepayer-owned land and they, the ratepayers, will now have no control over it. This is going to be interesting isn\u2019t it, because, up and down the country, parks of New Zealanders are going to be taken over by the water entities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003EI think this bill starts opening up some serious questions about the detail of this bill. It\u2019s no surprise now why they won\u2019t speak to it and why it was held back from last week, and they slip it in this week as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003ELook at the stuff that\u2019s coming through around water charging\u2014that is going to be interesting. I\u2019m looking forward to the select committee process to interrogate\u2014in fact, what are the intentions of the Government around water charging? Because they\u2019re quick to say, \u201CWell, maybe no further increase to rates.\u201D But how is that going to be charged? And look at the compliance and enforcement: obtaining information, including entry to places without a warrant. That will be interesting. There\u2019s a raft of detail in here that, in fact, the Government MPs have challenged us, \u201CIf they only read the bill.\u201D Well, that\u2019s an interesting comment. So maybe the Government MPs could stand up in their 90 seconds, or even beg the whip that they can do two minutes, and actually explain some of that detail for the Opposition MPs\u2014or maybe for the public listening, it is a debate. Maybe we could hear in detail around the water charges, around the compliance\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273a74a63415a4cae8c3b3c4e1ce2f1f2\u0022\u003EBarbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Do your own work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022166d32479cdf45e1b57c88cb823930fe\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CDo your own work.\u201D, I heard. Ha, ha! All right, it\u2019s up to me now to fill in the blanks from the Government, of course. It\u2019s not for them to go out and sell their own bill. Of course not! Because they\u2019re a one-party State. They don\u2019t need anyone else. They don\u2019t need a mandate from the public. No. It\u2019s up to everyone else to fill in the blanks, because, of course, they\u2019re right. They don\u2019t need to defend themselves because they\u2019re right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbbfd0c7502c4fe8bd513141e39deed5\u0022\u003EHon Nanaia Mahuta\u003C/span\u003E: You know it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c2358104e494300b08e2334ea5d9437\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY\u003C/span\u003E: Here we go. And this is it, isn\u2019t it? This is the arrogance we\u2019re hearing more and more from this Government. So it\u2019ll be very interesting to hear the details around that from the Government MPs. Because I\u2019ll tell you what, there\u2019s a lot of people really concerned with what\u2019s happening with this bill at the moment. And as we know, there\u2019s another a bill ahead of us, after this one is passed as well, which will even implement more detail and more reach under three waters. So I would encourage the Government MPs in their call today to actually explain to New Zealanders some of the things that you will be passing today. Because you\u2019ve put down a challenge to me about reading the bill, I\u2019ll put a challenge down to you: have you read the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b3a3661753c45a6aa132f4a2ff9482b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: To me? OK, this is the third time I have got to my feet to ask the speaker not to bring the Speaker into the debate. The member has 45 seconds left, and wouldn\u2019t it be a good thing if the member didn\u2019t bring the Speaker into the debate during that short time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e2743784c7b4be8b4b3abe7d411b761\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY\u003C/span\u003E: Apologies, Madam Speaker. So in closing, this is a good example of an arrogant Government who chose not to put this bill through last week. They didn\u2019t want to reveal the detail on purpose, and then they wonder why the public, in my view, is trusting this Government less and less. And that\u2019s reflected in the polls at the moment as they crawl to the end of the parliamentary year, becoming more and more unpopular as their colleagues leave because they don\u2019t want to be in Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022915421bb60a94c5db2483a7169ae0d91\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022915421bb60a94c5db2483a7169ae0d91\u0022\u003EBARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. \u201CIdeological, not significant, trivial, not important\u201D\u2014all wrapped up in disinformation. If the member even bothered to open up page 2 of this bill; it\u2019s only page 2, you only need to read the first and the second page\u2014sorry, that member needs to read the first and the second page, he would see: \u201CWater services are an essential building block for communities. Public health and well-being, better environmental outcomes, economic growth and job creation, housing and urban development, climate change, resilience to natural hazards, and the rights and interests of iwi and M\u0101ori all depend on better outcomes for those services.\u201D That is why this bill is important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThose members on the other side of the House who believe it\u2019s \u201Cideological, not significant, trivial, and not important\u201D: take the time over the summer to do some homework. Read the bill, read the regulatory impact statement, come to the Finance and Expenditure Committee, and debate and make this bill workable. In the absence of an actual constructive Opposition, it will be left again to this Government to make those hard decisions to make this bill work for the communities that we stand for. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222f51c2e7f6134298be6d0d29734c2639\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Water Services Legislation Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000046\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022639b252f1fca4fae9266170c8c4b00fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022639b252f1fca4fae9266170c8c4b00fe\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the Water Services Legislation Bill be considered by the Finance and Expenditure Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Finance and Expenditure Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226f1578d707a24c81aadec2beb310151c\u0022\u003EInstruction to Finance and Expenditure Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u00227a3f76fb80d24d859207d51b6e431025\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a3f76fb80d24d859207d51b6e431025\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Water Services Legislation Bill be reported to the House by 25 May 2023.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002236a05b98fd854f19bc1c1177b011d392\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 74\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022659b7a593d964e05bfea2dcd71539d68\u0022\u003EWater Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Protection Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022416c7dbc40734be0870c0216bafc7fd1\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8240e07a83643008949516eb59c0267\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8240e07a83643008949516eb59c0267\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Water Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Protection Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225de5ecdb0d7d4dfa8f059cbf5beffdf5\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298e713adbd2845a89b386c0afe472ec4\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Water Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Protection Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Finance and Expenditure Committee to consider the bill. At the appropriate time I intend to move that the bill be reported to the House by 25 May 2023.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EBy protecting the health and wellbeing of our water, we protect the health and wellbeing of our people and our environment. Sixty-seven different councils own and operate most drinking-water, waste-water, and stormwater services across New Zealand. These councils are facing significant challenges in the form of ageing infrastructure, historical under-investment, and source water contamination. A report by the Water Industry Commission for Scotland estimated that New Zealand will need to invest between $120 billion and $185 billion in water infrastructure over the next 30 years to catch up on that historic under-investment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EWithout reform, these costs will be shared unevenly between New Zealand households, and cost increases could be up to 13 times higher for rural households and seven times higher for many metropolitan households. For this reason, from July 2024, New Zealand\u2019s three waters services will be provided by four multiregional, publicly owned water services entities. These entities will have the scale, expertise, operational efficiencies, and financial flexibility to invest in safe, high-quality water services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ETo ensure that these new entities provide high-quality water services at efficient prices, this bill establishes an economic regulator and a consumer protection regime for the water sector. The bill complements Minister Mahuta\u2019s Water Services Entities Bill. The bill introduces economic regulation and consumer protection to ensure that services are delivered efficiently, effectively, and responsibly. This is the same sort of regulation used in other industries in New Zealand, including for the international airports in Auckland, Wellington, and Christchurch; electricity lines businesses; and natural gas pipelines businesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe Commerce Commission will be the agency responsible for implementing and enforcing economic regulation and consumer protection for the water sector. The commission is a high-performing regulator that does great work in helping markets to function well. It is well equipped to regulate the three waters sector, especially given its experience regulating other utility sectors and ensuring that consumers are fairly treated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EHowever, to further reflect the unique nature of the water sector and the importance of Te Mana o te Wai, the vital importance of water, the position of Water Services Commissioner will be established on the commission\u2019s board. The Water Services Commissioner will be responsible for leading the roles and functions of the commission. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe new entities will be subject to economic regulation from 1 July 2027 in the form of information disclosure and quality-only regulation. There is presumption that price-quality regulation will apply to the entities from 1 July 2030 and there is flexibility to adapt regulation for different entities and services or to bring these dates forward. Information disclosure regulation will promote transparency and accountability by shining a light on the entities\u2019 performance and expenditure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EAs I\u2019ve mentioned, it\u2019s a similar regulation that the commission uses for airports and it has proven to be an effective way of using reputational incentives to influence the profit, investment, pricing, and service levels of these businesses and to encourage better performance. Members of this House would be familiar, indeed, with those examples.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EQuality-only regulation will ensure the entities meet minimum quality standards, especially relating to resilience and reliability, and will complement the oversight provided by Taumata Arowai, the water services regulator. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EPrice-quality regulation will further influence the behaviour of the entities by limiting what they can charge consumers. The entities will be constrained either by the maximum average prices they can charge, or the total revenue they can recover from consumers. This is the same regulation that the commission uses for electricity businesses and is an effective way of encouraging businesses to be efficient.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EIf businesses do not comply with regulation, the commission can take a range of enforcement steps, including pecuniary penalty orders, compensatory orders, and injunctions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EEconomic efficiency is a key piece to these reforms but is not the only factor at play. There is a clear power imbalance between consumers and monopoly businesses in the utility sector, and consumers often struggle to have their voices heard and, indeed, to engage with the technical issues involved. Therefore, the bill introduces consumer protection measures that aim to ensure consumers\u2019 needs are met and that entities provide the high-quality services we would expect them to provide. These protections will focus on the quality of water services and be distinct from Taumata Arowai\u2019s role in regulating the quality of drinking water itself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe bill introduces a service quality code and sets minimum requirements that entities must meet. This complements the standard customer agreements provided for in Minister Mahuta\u2019s Water Services Entities Bill, and covers standards relating to outages and faults, minimum flow, pressure rates, billing practices, consumer rights, and customer services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003EThe bill also establishes a comprehensive, independent consumer disputes resolution scheme so consumers can easily escalate complaints that they cannot resolve with the entities themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003ESo, in conclusion, New Zealanders expect and deserve safe drinking water, sewage infrastructure, and stormwater systems. The economic-regulation and consumer protection regime established by this bill will help achieve this and will help safeguard and enhance critical water infrastructure and services for generations to come. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd3e7987a32942a7b042e007b3c1e005\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd3e7987a32942a7b042e007b3c1e005\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022276500e8244f4b2e82bc9623cae2915b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022276500e8244f4b2e82bc9623cae2915b\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to be talking on the Water Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Protection Bill first reading, and this is the trilogy of this disaster that we are all just watching unfold before us. We\u2019ve heard the speeches just before on the previous bill\u2014that 275 changes were made and incorporated in the last bill, a mere 131 hours after the first bill was passed last week. So I now calculate that it\u2019s 143 hours since we passed the first bill, and we\u2019re on to the third bit; here we go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThis is all about economic regulation\u2014hey, but don\u2019t worry, we\u2019ve got a new Minister this time! It\u2019s not the Hon Nanaia Mahuta; it\u2019s the Hon Dr David Clark, so I think we\u2019re going to be saved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo I suppose it\u2019s important, first of all, to maybe have a quick canter through what this bill does. It\u2019s an interesting part, but the first major aspect of it is it requires a Water Services Commission to be established under the auspices of the Commerce Commission, and, of course, that gives rise to why that particular structure\u2014because in overseas jurisdictions, normally, it is outside of the commerce or monopoly\u2019s entity; it\u2019s normally a stand-alone. But it\u2019s probably not an issue\u2014it would be an issue we\u2019ll be interested in at the select committee, but it is an interesting choice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe second thing is: what this bill does is that it requires extensive information disclosure requirements on the new entities, and, of course, there\u2019s not going to be four entities if Mr Simon Watts is going to have his way, because we want to make sure that all the water companies\u2014in what form they may be, hopefully at the end of next year\u2014meet information disclosure requirements. These include financial statements, asset values, pricing, contracts, asset management plans\u2014commonly referred to as AMPs\u2014and quality performance measures, and so we don\u2019t necessarily have an issue with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe second thing is that we\u2019ll require service quality statements, and that is something that, again, we don\u2019t have a problem with: service quality code, which will need to be in place by 1 July 2027. Who\u2019s going to do that? Not the water entities, which is an interesting one, but, of course, the commerce commissioner, the Water Services Commissioner\u2014which, again, seems a slightly odd way of going about it. Normally, it would be interactive, but, in this case, it\u2019s going to be that the commission does it: talking about outages and faults, minimum flow pressures, billing practices, blah-blah-blah. Again, that\u2019s nothing out of the ordinary, and one would expect that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThen there\u2019s the issue of price-quality regulation that may involve setting maximum prices and providing transparency across the capital valuation of the assets and cost allocations. This is an issue I\u2019m going to return to shortly, but the interesting thing\u2014it allows the commissioner to set price paths, so now we\u2019re talking about a very heavy-duty set of regulations under this regime. Four entities under our proposal will be more than that, with local ownership. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe fifth thing is that the ability of the code-of-conduct reviews to confirm if the entities are complying with regulations\u2014as Matt Doocey talked about before, the compliance officers have a great deal of power under the previous bill, and, I presume, under this bill, there will be a great deal of powers for the commissioner to request information, but certainly, as it\u2019s noted, as a minimum, funding and pricing plans are subject to review. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe next element is a mandatory dispute resolution scheme, and, again, we would expect that and don\u2019t have a problem with that. Then there\u2019s the issue of imposition of levies on the water companies to fund the commissioner\u2014hopefully that\u2019s going to be reasonable. And then the final one is the commissioner has wider general powers to issue warnings, reports, and guidelines, and undertake monitoring, compliance, and take appropriate actions in respect of persons. Whew! Let\u2019s go. So some of this, we don\u2019t necessarily have a problem with\u2014particularly around requiring businesses to disclose certain information and the businesses to be subject to consumer protection measures, which the code will have to be in place by 1 July 2027, and setting up the formal independent consumer disputes resolution service. Those are all good things, but the interesting thing is, in terms of the cut-and-paste around the price regulations that involve setting maximum prices, providing transparency of cost of capital, valuation of assets, and cost allocations, and allows the commissioner to set price paths. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo I think it raises two issues: what are we trying to require of, or what\u2019s the purpose of the economic regulation we need? And if you look at jurisdictions around the world, where you have private entities or publicly-listed companies operating in a particular sector, the level of economic regulation in those particular areas is often of a much higher and exacting nature, and, in those cases, gives the commissioner\u2014or whoever it might be: an officer, or regulator-general, or the Ofwat as they\u2019re normally called overseas\u2014the ability to impose and undertake a lot of economic analysis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EHowever, if you accept the Government\u2019s argument that these water companies are acting for the best interest of their consumers\u2014and I look at the original Water Services Entities Bill, clause 10, which then says, under clause 11(e), to \u201Cact in the best interest of present and future consumers and communities\u201D. The issue is: are these entities in the game of deriving a profit? And I think one of the issues with this form of regulation is that I don\u2019t think for a moment that the Minister ever intended that these entities are there to derive a profit. And what I think we\u2019ve ended up with is that we\u2019ve got a form of regulation\u2014and I noted the Minister\u2019s reference to the existing economic regime in Part 4 of the Commerce Act, and it specifically talks about the Telecommunication Act, the electricity lines services, gas pipeline services, specified airport services, and fibre fixed line access services. All of those involve private sector entities, and that\u2019s why you have a higher level of economic regulation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI\u2019d suggest to you that\u2014we\u2019ve had officials cut and paste regulation from what would normally require quite heavy regulation, and shoved it into this bill without thinking for a moment that, actually, the nature of these entities is quite different, if we are to accept the Government\u2019s proposition that these entities are essentially for the public good, and not there to derive a profit. So the only issue around\u2014the second bit is the Commerce Commission\u2014the Water Services Commissioner may be able to set a price path. And I\u2019d have to ask the Minister\u2014and certainly we\u2019ll be covering it in the select committee\u2014why would the Commerce Commission be required to set a price path? Because I think if we accept, again, the Government\u2019s proposition\u2014and again, the Minister quoted it earlier; it\u2019s a deficit of infrastructure spending of between $120 billion and $185 billion, which is obviously subject to a lot of dispute, particularly by councils\u2014are we expecting the Commerce Commission to say that the entities are not spending enough money, not investing enough and therefore being over-aggressive in their pricing regime, or are we requiring the Water Commissioner to review every asset management plan and funding plan, and use of equity and debt, to come up with an optimised structure and then reflect that into a price path? This seems an extraordinary level of overcomplication in terms of economic monitoring of these four water companies as proposed in this bill, and, as I said earlier, I think what we\u2019ve seen is officials cut and paste provisions from other Acts, put it into here\u2014of course, we haven\u2019t had a Minister of inquiring mind to say \u201CWhy in the Dickens have you done that, why have you put this into this bill?\u201D, because it\u2019s inappropriate, and it\u2019s certainly something we\u2019ll be looking forward to canvassing in the select committee. But here we go again, the third of the trilogy\u2014wow. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u002283141b89aa6e46d6b15a8611a7292161\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283141b89aa6e46d6b15a8611a7292161\u0022\u003EBARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise to take a call as the chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, who will be happy to receive the Water Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Protection Bill. I just want to acknowledge the comments made by the speaker on the opposite side of the House who just sat down, Andrew Bayly. Thank you for your considered speech. A number of the policy issues that you raised in your comments are actually issues which this select committee needs to pay attention to, and that is the purpose of the select committee: to actually make the bill workable, or to make a bill more workable. You know who actually told me that comment? It was David Seymour. It was David Seymour during a select committee process for the Water Services Entities Bill. As we were sitting on a select committee in Auckland on the Water Services Entities Bill, David Seymour actually said to me that the purpose of the select committee is to make a bill more workable, and I absolutely agree with that statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EAs we know, this bill is around bringing in some economic regulations. When you have a market that is rare and is usually for an infrastructure such as gas, airports, and other measures such as fibre, what you do is you bring in some economic regulation, because it is such a unique market. So it\u2019s going to be really great to be able to receive some submissions, hopefully from other markets such as airports and gas and fibre, as to how it works in their industry, in their market, so that we can take those learnings, like the previous speaker who just sat down, and customise this bill for water services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EI just want to pay attention to two parts of this particular bill which I\u2019m hoping we will get submissions on. In Part 2, Subpart 3, \u201CInput methodologies\u201D: input methodologies are rules, requirements, and processes that underpin regulations which will regulate these particular water services. I\u2019m hoping to see that we can get some more information around what are the types of frameworking regulations; what are, sort of, the boundaries we need to set in order to make these regulations work better for this market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThe second part of the bill I will touch on briefly is in Schedule 2, which is the \u201CConsumer dispute resolution service\u201D\u2014again, another type of framework, type of schedule, within this bill. It is something that we need to look at as to whether we need to customise it for water services entities. So the rules which are set out in Schedule 2, clause 3, the \u201CRules of approved service\u201D\u2014there is a whole list within this bill of areas that we\u2019re hoping we will get submissions on. Does this work? Do the local authorities who do have shares in water service entities\u2014would this work for them if they had to get into a position where they needed to dispute a particular part of the water services infrastructure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo, as the chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, I\u2019m looking forward to having really constructive debates within our committee, and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022effb1bf5bf7a431e82872748ddd49276\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022effb1bf5bf7a431e82872748ddd49276\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to rise as a member of the National Party and as a member of Parliament for North Shore, on the Water Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Protection Bill. As my colleague Andrew Bayly outlined in his opening address, this is the bill which looks to introduce the concept of economic regulation and consumer protection in regards to the four co-governed mega-entities that the Government are going to be establishing in order to manage the three waters infrastructure across this country. National will be repealing that bill when we are in Government in the future, and as such we will also be opposing this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll outline, this morning, in regards to some of the context, but I think it is important, firstly, to outline that the National Party do support the concept of sound economic and commercial regulation, including economic and consumer protection in regards to water infrastructure. But the challenge here is that this legislation is applying that regulation to a four-entity co-governed model which we do not believe is the appropriate model in order to achieve the outcomes that we require in order to produce a safe, a reliable, and a sustainable water infrastructure model in this country. And so, on that basis, we will be opposing it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThere are a number of issues within this bill that will be canvassed through the select committee process, but what is clear is that the regulatory impact statement notes, and I quote, \u201COver time, it may become evident that scope or form of economic regulation is not in the best interests of water consumers.\u201D It is clear that this is a complex area, and if we look at the challenges that the Government are facing at present, the headwinds in which they are sailing into\u2014into 2023\u2014they have a huge agenda, wide-ranging reform that is currently under way, and the Prime Minister has indicated that that scope of the reform agenda and policy positions that the party are undertaking will be narrowed. But the concept of economic and consumer protection regulation, in itself, is a complex burden that will be placed upon the sector, and why that is the case is because this does not currently exist today. And so the reality for us moving into a new model is going to create significant burden on top of all the other aspects of reform. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EDon\u2019t forget they are going to, at the same time, transition all the assets and liabilities out of 67 councils around the country into one of these four mega-entities. That in itself, as we\u2019ve seen play out in the conversations over the last 141 hours since the bill was passed on Thursday, articulates the complexity and challenge that the Government is still trying to work through\u2014i.e., what is even in scope in terms of those assets and transfers that will move into these new entities? And this bill is going to, therefore, have the regulation elements around that. The other aspect that we hear, as the Minister outlined in his opening comments in regards to this bill, is in terms of the basis or the case for change for this legislation. And, as I\u2019ve said continually, no major party in this House believes that our water infrastructure in this country does not need to be improved. It does. The question is: how do we achieve that future state, which will be a future state which is sustainable and achieve the outcomes that we require? The difference between the National Party\u2019s position and that of the Labour Government\u2014and only the Labour Government, because it is important to recognise that no other party within this Parliament, other than Labour, are supporting the current reform agenda on the table. And I think that is something, as well, across to New Zealanders watching, that this isn\u2019t a bipartisan reform programme for one of the most fundamental aspects of human life, which is the provision of water to our country. And so that is what it is. But I think that also sends a signal in terms of the fact that this reform agenda is not going to last very long. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe element around the case for change is based upon the Scottish water model, as the Minister said in his opening statements, and the comments in regards to\u2014the Minister quoted $180 billion of capital expenditure required in regards to that reform. I mean, the assessment by the Scottish water authority has been reviewed continuously through the Water Services Entities Bill process, and has, on multiple occasions, been found to be based on inaccurate assumptions. It is not comparable in terms of the New Zealand context, and the concept or the comments in regards to the capital savings that are available in terms of achievable have also been assessed as they\u2019re not available in the New Zealand context. So the case for change is a house built upon sand. It is well known that when the Government stands up and uses these numbers, they are simply unsubstantiated and not evidenced by independent assessment, and that, in effect, just puts the whole case for change, you know, where it should be, which is one that is not substantiated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe other element that you hear from the Government, and the Minister articulated as well, is the cost implications in regards to costs on consumers. He noted a 13-factor increase of water bills for rural consumers and a seven-factor increase for urban households. This is simply, again, in my view, scaremongering the New Zealand consumer in regards to trying to create a case for change for a reform programme that has been destined to failure right from the start. An independent assessment undertaken in a number of councils across this country in regards to exactly this point, you know: will the alternative models that have been put on the table by councils deliver the implication and the savings\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285fc05cae2ce4e399acfdfb5ec8fad04\u0022\u003EHon Stuart Nash\u003C/span\u003E: But nothing by National.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f157b07257e43d48553792a238de2d2\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014in regards to water charges? And you can hear the Minister on the other side\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246bcadbff72d441699c7919c74cfe0fd\u0022\u003EAnna Lorck\u003C/span\u003E: Where\u2019s your plan?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255032cce24d544d3a5f739508d39c699\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014adding a little bit of comment and stuff like that, and it\u2019s interesting because in the time that we\u2019ve heard\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b05e169485f46cca47cac31bd552aee\u0022\u003EHon Stuart Nash\u003C/span\u003E: Where\u2019s your plan?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220650683566cb410fb3c3d9fbd6b997b7\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: And you can hear the Minister, you can hear them all saying\u2014we\u2019ve got the member from Tukituki there commenting in the background, but they\u2019re only taking 60-second calls. Isn\u2019t it ironic on the day before this Parliament\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bbded2ec-ac25-4a73-a380-3f4d87693084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f536185b6ba4ebdbab58975831eab19\u0022\u003EHon Stuart Nash\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve got a plan, and you\u2019ve spoken for eight minutes and provided no solution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd0de33e48d44d33801d839df76a536c\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: And I can hear the Minister again\u2014Minister Nash is commenting again and he is outlining\u2014but he hasn\u2019t taken a call, because this Government, this Labour Government, on the day before this Parliament breaks, is ramming through another piece of legislation, taking the opportunity to undertake only 60-second calls while they ram through legislation which is strongly opposed by Kiwis across this country. This is a Government that is under pressure. This is a Government that is struggling in order to get any cut-through, and this is another example of legislation which, at a conceptual level, has benefits, but, in terms of detail, is significant overreach. And, as I said, it isn\u2019t going to last beyond next Christmas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe outline in regards to further implications, in regards to the asset management considerations in regards to this bill\u2014the councils have already submitted through the select committee process that they believe that what they\u2019ve been told by Government and the numbers within the Government plans do not correlate with what the councils on the ground have seen. And we had submissions on the prior bills in regards to the capital expenditure required in order to undertake what is the future capital expenditure required in councils around this country. And the numbers that the Minister articulated, around $180 billion, simply don\u2019t correlate to where the councils believe the capital investment is required in order to improve their systems. And this bill, in terms of the asset management plans that will be incorporated, will, in effect, substantiate what that actual number is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EAnd it\u2019s interesting that so far through this process the Government still does not know what exact assets will actually transfer to these new entities. Isn\u2019t that remarkable? After four to five years of planning, they still do not know what assets will transfer from local councils into these four mega-entities. And that is testament to a fact that the complexity that this Government came into this was completely underestimated, and also the fact that the bottom lines that the Government had in regards to the structuring of the reform solution for water infrastructure were based on a four-entity co-governed mega-entity model that had no basis\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299c0880767364d969f4437d1639e781c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u00224c09c1c9bb624a7e927bc861ef1dac9f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c09c1c9bb624a7e927bc861ef1dac9f\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E When it comes to the water infrastructure reforms, this particular bill is about ensuring that there\u2019s value for money for all New Zealanders so that New Zealanders can get clean, safe, and affordable water. What this bill does is it creates a water services commissioner to ensure that the market is competitive but also fair, that there\u2019s monitoring of services, and that there are consumer protections. The Mayor of Clutha, Bryan Cadogan, advocated very hard to get consumer voice fairly into the mix, and I think that this piece of legislation is a good reflection of that consumer voice that will ensure value for money for New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve got similar types of regulations in the electricity sector, with airports, with natural gas, and currently in my electorate there is still a boil-water notice in place. Although the infrastructure has now been fixed, I am told, a week ago, this week the boil-water notice is still in place as the water flushes through, which means people need to boil water in order to drink, in order to cook, and so on. That\u2019s exactly what we\u2019re trying to fix, and this is the legislation that will ensure that when we do so there will be value for money, that it will be done in a fair and regulated way. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c780e8f618f14b14afdfd8cc751c3f75\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c780e8f618f14b14afdfd8cc751c3f75\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare. I\u2019m pleased to take a call on the Water Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Protection Bill. The Green Party will be supporting this bill. Obviously, we need an economic regulator and we need some consumer protection mechanisms, because these four new entities\u2014given that Labour has the majority to get the legislation through\u2014will each service between 800,000 and 1.7 million customers. They\u2019ll be big organisations, and big organisations are not always the most efficient. They can have quite cumbersome bureaucracies, they can have additional layers of management, and they can have inflated overheads. And when you\u2019re a big entity and when you\u2019re in a natural monopoly, there won\u2019t be the same incentive to be innovative, to maintain and operate assets cost-effectively, and you won\u2019t have the ability that citizens have at the moment when they have an issue with their three-water services to raise it with their elected representatives, whether that\u2019s a member of a local board or a city councillor. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EAnd, certainly in \u014Ctautahi Christchurch, the city council has an enormously effective snap, send, solve system where if you see a problem with leaking water pipes, you take a photograph, you email it through, and usually a short time later it gets fixed. So where you\u2019ve got this natural monopoly, no alternative suppliers, the entities would be able to charge unjustifiably high prices or provide a level of service which is below what citizens expect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EAnd if I can just quote from the regulatory impact statement (RIS), which really summarises the need for the bill, \u201CWithout a fit-for-purpose economic regulation and consumer protection regime, the potential consumer outcomes (in terms of factors such as price, service quality, infrastructure resilience and network reliability) could be worse than under the current system. This would undermine the outcomes that the reforms are intended to achieve, particularly given the loss of existing accountability through elected territorial [representatives].\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo if these changes are going to happen, then we really do need this bill because we need to protect citizens when they are operating as water consumers. And there\u2019s an emphasis in the bill in terms of transparency and accountability through using the Commerce Commission, with its experience in regulating other sectors, through having a water commissioner on the board or the commission to actually have a greater focus on water services, and the bill does build on some consultation that was done in 2020.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s also important because there is, as the RIS notes, a lack of robust information about the current state of three waters assets, though I think that there\u2019s been more information being provided by councils to the Department of Internal Affairs recently. But just, for citizens, knowing the state of their pipes and knowing the investment that is needed is important\u2014as it is for the equity markets, because the whole premise of the reform is that these entities will be able to borrow quite substantially, and in the absence of economic regulation, the credit rating agencies and the debt markets aren\u2019t going to have clear information about the risk associated with the entities. They will need that information for the entities to be able to obtain finance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo both elements of this bill\u2014the economic regulation and the consumer protection\u2014are critical. The consumer dispute resolution service is something the Green Party supports, because while you can go to councils at the moment, you won\u2019t be able to under the new regime. And while the Taumata Arowai\u2014when it was established, there was a backstop consumer complaints service there. If people have got concerns about drinking-water quality, the quality of their supply, they can go to Taumata Arowai as the drinking-water regulator, but Taumata Arowai can\u2019t deal with issues like billing and just the continuation of the supply. So that\u2019s why we need this consumer disputes resolution service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThere are a number of issues that the Finance and Expenditure Committee should look at closely. One of the issues, I think, was one that Mr Bayly raised in terms of whether the entities are investing enough, because we\u2019ve had the Office of the Auditor-General, as an Officer of Parliament, warning local authorities over a number of years that they weren\u2019t investing adequately in three waters infrastructure, they weren\u2019t providing adequately for depreciation of that, so whether the economic regulator has a role in that space is an interesting issue for the committee to consider. So I look forward to the bill being improved, as Barbara Edmonds noted, through the select committee process and to submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022 data-id=\u0022b636bf38ff9b4ecb9343fa41a2cffecb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b636bf38ff9b4ecb9343fa41a2cffecb\u0022\u003EDAMIEN SMITH (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. What a mess this Government has got us into on three waters. What a mess has been made by stripping democratic control from our own water system. When the councils were responsible, if they made decisions that people didn\u2019t support, they could simply have been voted out. Instead, the Labour Government has stripped away water and councils. They\u2019ve created a State-established monopoly in these mega-entities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242135d993a0c400d92061b5b74110885\u0022\u003ESoraya Peke-Mason\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s your plan?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260c7f6f70baf4d79aa3ce6d9b0228aba\u0022\u003EDAMIEN SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I have the plan. ACT cannot be accused of not having a plan\u2014and that\u2019s why we\u2019re the fastest-growing party in the country, because people are hearing what we\u2019re saying\u2014and it is infrastructure-based. We\u2019re allowed to have an alternative opinion, so let me purport it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003ENow, they want to create yet another regulatory body to rein them in. They\u2019ve created a monster. Now, they need to keep it under control and leash it up through economic regulation and pricing that I would say that even Mr Clark knows doesn\u2019t make sense, and it\u2019s heading towards another Credit Contracts and Consumer Finance Act moment. It all sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a risk that without sufficient independent scrutiny, the entities will act inefficiently, this Government says. The Labour Party\u2019s philosophy is\u2014guess what!\u2014what better way to improve efficiency than another hefty bureaucracy? But I think Kiwis see through this, and I think the time has come for the public to have their say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EKiwis want the Government to show a bit of sense with their spending and to make sure that money gets to the right places, where it\u2019s needed most. But this Government is determined to spend on middle-managers and top-heavy bureaucracies. The Government has talked at length about the three waters reform keeping prices down. They even said that without the reforms, our rates would rise by $9,000 per year. And then, later, it came out in the wash that these numbers simply didn\u2019t reflect reality. Now, even with the reforms, officials are warning that water bills could increase significantly without regulation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003ESo do we need yet another regulatory body in the Commerce Commission? How many new regulatory bodies has this Government crammed into the Commerce Commission? We\u2019ve got the Grocery Commissioner, we\u2019ve got the petrol regulator, we\u2019ve got the new Fonterra regulator, and now we\u2019ve got a new water regulator. But wait, there\u2019s more. I feel like I\u2019m getting d\u00E9j\u00E0 vu here\u2014hasn\u2019t this Government already set up a water regulator? Taumata Arowai was established as a water regulator last year as part of these reforms. This Government has set up so many regulators and commissioners that I feel like I\u2019m singing The 12 Days of Christmas just listing them: the fuel regulator, the grocery commission, the airports, the lines companies, the gas companies, the Fonterra regulator, the electricity regulator, and two water regulators\u2014two water regulators.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EThe Commerce Commission has gone from a corrector of market inefficiencies to the strong arm of the Government\u2019s market interference, which I\u2019m sure Mr Clark would appreciate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b016662bd854bfc8b68e74c5aa2cb76\u0022\u003EDr James McDowall\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s all gone wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220affcb1ff50c4187a4518d832d69a41f\u0022\u003EDAMIEN SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Perhaps this is where it\u2019s gone wrong. Under this Government, it would be more accurate to call it the \u201CCommunism Commission\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EBut back to the bill at hand. I\u2019m afraid to say that ACT can\u2019t support this bill. ACT rejects the three waters reforms as a whole and is committed to repealing them. The reforms are an exercise in forced centralisation and a Treaty settlement by stealth. These reforms are stripping power away from local communities and putting it in the hands of mega-entities, which are now being sought to be reined in by this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard that 31 councils representing 1.2 million people have signed up in opposition to these reforms as proposed. That is incredible and it\u2019s no wonder as to why. Surely it\u2019s a sign of bad relations and bad reforms that before the reforms are even completed, the bodies they\u2019ve set up need to be reined in. If you look at the law and if it\u2019s passed, it will allow the Commerce Commission to regulate the rate of price increases and even impose short-term revenue caps to mitigate the risk of price shocks in entities that are established. The regulator is trying to avoid the sharp and embarrassing price-hike scenario in the first few years of the reform system. So, basically, this isn\u2019t pure regulation or pure pricing management; this is to stop any embarrassing pricing decisions inside the entities which could make the Government look bad. That is not economic and regulatory policy that we should be buying into in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EThe economic regulation of the new three waters would look into pricing practice for consumers, and officials would have water charges, which would affect new corporations. Water services entities are unaccountable, non-democratic organisations. They have little or no competition, and little or no likelihood of a substantial increase in competition. This is a step backwards. In the Finance and Expenditure Committee, we need to really look at the dynamics of that situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a nebulous principle, also, that the commissioner and the Government Minister have to look at the principles of the Treaty and take into account climate change at the same time when setting the price around water.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EI said that these Government approaches to regulation and the three-water reforms are like The 12 days of Christmas. We now have four mega-entities, three hefty bills, two new water regulators, one determined Minister, 50 percent iwi appointees in regional representative groups, 31 councils representing 1.2 million people opposed, and a partridge in a pear tree.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EACT opposes this bill, its excessive regulation, its non-democratic leashing of the four water companies, and its nebulous approach to leveraging the principles of the Treaty around economics. That is not suitable. Price fixing is in the hands of those entities. At the moment, I don\u2019t think there\u2019s any experience in setting regulatory opinions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003ESo ACT has an alternative infrastructure plan which would allow the community control of water assets and to improve the necessary infrastructure to ensure safety and efficiency on water allocation. We would provide for councils to enter voluntary assured-service agreements, gaining the benefits of scale while retaining local ownership and control, and to establish long-term 30-year central government \u2013 local government payment systems and partnerships to put water infrastructure upgrades, tailored to specify, in any area and in any local authority. We would also put in plan rateable charges that the community can assess and ensure are commensurate with the infrastructure that they require.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s really kind of Barbara Edmonds to say that David Seymour said that the making the bill good is something that is the job of the select committee, but David has always told us as well that sometimes you just walk to the shredder and stick it in there and start again. All ACT wants for next Christmas is a new local government Minister and to repeal these three waters reforms which have the nation offside with the Labour Party\u2014Jamie Strange obviously knows how that feels. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc8338954b50404b9203140b5f866e68\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc8338954b50404b9203140b5f866e68\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Hello. It\u2019s a lovely thing to be able to talk on the second bill today which is going to fill out our response to water. It\u2019s always a pleasure to go after the ACT Party in these debates, because there is quite a stark contrast. There was a list just read of the things that Labour has done to reform what are actually areas that really affect New Zealanders. Things like electricity and water are essential to actually having a good life. Our world is changing, and we actually do need to respond to those things maturely. We can\u2019t just throw stones into the arena; we have to get in there, get stuck in, and fix them in a modern world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EAnd what we have are these big entities that are actually coming into our world, which can actually control and skew things, and we need to make sure that we are actually controlling that space for people so that we have decent utilities. Minister Clark talked about the power imbalance in those areas of utilities. They are really very serious. If we don\u2019t actually put in consumer protection, if we don\u2019t put in things like a regulator, then we end up with a bloody mess, and it is very much a mess. That\u2019s what we have at the moment: we have rivers we can\u2019t swim in, we have beaches in Auckland we can\u2019t swim in, and we have had people die because they drank the water. That\u2019s not good enough for New Zealand, and we need that response to actually consider all infrastructure. And that\u2019s what it does. So, yes, there is no apology for our actual response to things like our need to regulate in areas of fuel and electricity and, yes, pipes and infrastructure and water, because every New Zealander needs to be safe when they use those facilities. Every New Zealander has that right. That\u2019s the real difference between one side of the House and the other: one throws stones; one fixes problems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI am very pleased to be on the select committee, the Finance and Expenditure Committee, that will look at this bill. I\u2019d like to finally thank the Minister responsible for this bill, which is Minister Clark. I\u2019ve learnt a lot from Minister Clark because he is looking at the entire picture, and I will be sorry to lose him from our Government, and I wish him well, but I thank him for the work he\u2019s done in this area, which is informed by all those other areas that are important. All those utilities that we rely on in New Zealand need to stay working for the public, not the multinationals, not for interest groups, but for us all. I am satisfied that we will work on this bill and make it absolutely the right response to this situation. Thank you. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00225293f21918c2499f96e12f337d3fae13\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225293f21918c2499f96e12f337d3fae13\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This is a split call. I call Sam Uffindell\u2014five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd7e728e10844eb9b0ae135f541cb9de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd7e728e10844eb9b0ae135f541cb9de\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a real privilege to be able to stand here on the last sitting day of the House and talk on this matter. We\u2019re talking a lot about throwing stones and other people fixing it. I think this Government has been throwing a few stones, but they\u2019ve mostly been going straight up in the air and landing on top of New Zealand, and, by the way, it\u2019s looking as though it will be the National Party that will have to come in and fix everything up. But we are ready\u2014we are ready to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EThis bill is something that we will have to fix as well, and we will do that by repealing and replacing three waters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254ee28a8ad4d4201a6222c7ffc84fba7\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: What with? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af07e6065e214b239daa3dff4ab074dd\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s good to have the future local government Minister in the House, so let me talk through what we are looking at in this. We definitely see this bill as something that we will get rid of, because what this does is it builds on the three waters legislation that went through the House unceremoniously a couple of weeks ago. This will look to create an Auckland-style Watercare bill. There is huge transitional uncertainty in the way it will work. We expect this to create more costs and, ultimately, the mega-entities are going to charge those to ratepayers. We know that this is going to result in some of those costs being passed on through higher rents, and that is going exacerbate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258ab8fb4bd5d4e538484ff4c1efc5b0f\u0022\u003EAnna Lorck\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s going to keep costs down\u2014keep costs down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f846abbe98e4b82bf1a257427c89fed\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014what we already have in New Zealand, which is a higher cost of living crisis here, Anna Lorck. This bill is only going to increase it\u2014and you\u2019ll be happy that I\u2019ve got your name into Hansard again today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003ENow, we see here that this is just a\u2014and we\u2019ve seen it right through this bill. There\u2019s been a complete lack of transparency from this Labour Government. We\u2019ve seen the bill come in a couple of weeks ago\u2014Kiri Allan is looking at me, quite unamused, at the moment, but that\u2019s all right. We have seen a lack of transparency, and the two bills that have come in in the last week have been really rushed through. Numerous more clauses have been brought in, and we\u2019ve seen it\u2014I\u2019m not sure what\u2019s going on to my right here. I\u2019m glad my colleague has found her notes. But this bill is another slap in the face to democracy from an increasingly, frankly, out-of-touch and arrogant Labour Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EWe had 88,000 submissions on this bill and most of them were disregarded, and I expect that my five minutes of talking away here will be as well. But we are very strong that we are against this. Everyone on that side of the House is talking about a lot of fear\u2014you know: \u201CWe have water that is completely unusable.\u201D Well, frankly, in my electorate of Tauranga, we have excellent water because we have invested heavily in it over the years. We don\u2019t have a council at the moment, unfortunately. That hasn\u2019t helped, and we\u2019d like to get them back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b5958c9820c4398b58e629f42bab48c\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223eb62ae06b07401bb517105f929d2cae\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL\u003C/span\u003E: So, Mr McAnulty, perhaps when you\u2019re the new Minister next year, you can help expedite local body elections in Tauranga. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EBut we have done a really good job with our water, and to have that taken away from us and put into four mega-entities in Wellington is not going to help us. It\u2019s not what we want. I was just on a call before I rushed down to speak on this bill, and it\u2019s certainly not what the people I was talking to in the South Island wanted, either. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EI\u2019m really concerned about where we\u2019re heading with this, because you\u2019ve got mega-entities trying to get in touch with what is happening on the ground. We talked earlier a little bit around what the investment would have to be to ensure that our water infrastructure stays up to date, and I do acknowledge that that is, ultimately, what you guys are trying to achieve on that side of the House. I don\u2019t think that what you\u2019re doing through this is really going to get that feedback mechanism from local and regional New Zealand into the mega-entities, and I think there will be opportunities in investment missed there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EBut I think that a lot of this has been run on fear, and I think that the Government has run a strong fear campaign, as they did\u2014and they\u2019ve really seen it work for them over the last three years, but I think New Zealanders are slowly waking up. But that\u2019s pretty much the only trick that they\u2019ve got, because it\u2019s certainly not on delivery, it\u2019s certainly not on working for New Zealand, and it\u2019s certainly not on working for lower and middle class New Zealanders, who are getting increasingly hit by a cost of living crisis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EThey are going to get further hit when more costs are passed on to them by people who now are being billed by the mega-entities. Are they still going to get billed by their local councils for water services? We don\u2019t know around that one. Are they going to be double-dipping on that? There are going to be significant costs there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EThere is a lack of transparency around that and there is significant uncertainty, and I am very happy to be able to stand up here and say that I condemn three waters and that we will repeal it. Mr Speaker, thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00226549be8d3225480fa5e51325c9e52952\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226549be8d3225480fa5e51325c9e52952\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Shanan Halbert\u2014five minutes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u00223b78fc2ab6384d26a13eb6843e9477f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b78fc2ab6384d26a13eb6843e9477f1\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E Meri Kirihimete ki a koe, and happy holidays to all of my colleagues across the House. It\u2019s my privilege to speak on this Water Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Protection Bill. Last night, I spoke openly about the contaminated waters across T\u0101maki-makau-rau Auckland, and my shared concern for my constituents that they suffer swimming in our local beaches with human waste. That\u2019s not good enough, in my view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003ESecondly, today, under this bill, the importance of acknowledging the water rates that Aucklanders have experienced in the last year; a 7 percent increase\u20147 percent increase\u2014Aucklanders have had to pay for their water. So that\u2019s why it\u2019s important that, under this Government, we\u2019ve got on and taken action on the things that really matter. If we look at the issue and the problem that we\u2019re actually trying to solve with water reform that we actually all agree on, then those are the things that we need to work on and the action that we need to take.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003ESo this particular bill: the Commerce Commission will become the economic regulator of water infrastructure services. That is important, in my view, because we do need to have some eyes across the way that water operates, the costs that are incurred to every constituent in this country. It\u2019s important that collectively we do take action, and I look forward to, after this first reading, being a part of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, that New Zealanders are able to come and have their say once again. I know and feel confident that they will be looking at the cost of living and ensuring that we keep our water prices down. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022 data-id=\u0022bafa215391e0406f939c61be24ea1b49\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bafa215391e0406f939c61be24ea1b49\u0022\u003EANNA LORCK (Labour\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. The whole purpose of the water entities bill is to keep rates lower. We are facing a between $125 billion and $185 billion bill to fix our water infrastructure across this country. Of any piece of legislation that is coming through, this is the one\u2014this bill is what ratepayers want to know about. It is about making sure that what we are paying for our water infrastructure is fair\u2014is fair. If we don\u2019t keep it fair, prices are going to go through the roof. We have seen rates going through the roof over and over and over again, up and up and up. Rates are going up across this country. This bill will make sure that the cost of fixing our water infrastructure is fair to all. This is about making sure that we have transparency, regulation, and protection for consumers and for ratepayers so that when they open their rates bill, they can see exactly what they are going to pay for water and what they\u2019re going to have to pay in the future, because without this type of legislation and protection we can\u2019t make sure that it\u2019s fair for all. That is why I commend this bill to the House. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022170ce73f1a984e90b254543ae4cb09f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022170ce73f1a984e90b254543ae4cb09f4\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Sometimes I wonder why I bother preparing speech notes, particularly when I\u2019m on call 11 in a debate, because I diligently beaver away at what I want to say and then spend most of the 10 minutes refuting the nonsense that comes from the other side of the House. I\u2019ll be doing a little bit of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EBut, before I do, Mr Speaker, I trust you\u2019ll indulge me as this is the first time I have spoken since the announcement by the sponsor of this bill of his intention not to stand in the 2023 election. Dr Clark and I go back a wee way\u2014over 10 years now and it\u2019ll be\u2014well, 11 years now, isn\u2019t it? How has he been here? About eleven years? We certainly don\u2019t see eye to eye on all things, but I want to wish him and his family all the best for his future. He has been a diligent worker for the city that we both love, and I wish him all the best.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ENow, that\u2019s probably where the love fest ends, because this bill establishes an economic regulation and, according to the explanatory note, a consumer protection regime. But let me be really, really clear: the protection the water users of this country need most is from this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThe irony is extreme: that we are considering a bill at first reading here to control the prices that water users will pay\u2014so to prevent them from being too high\u2014only a week after this Government passed a bill that took away the assets at bargain basement prices because the Government wasn\u2019t prepared to pay for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThose assets were taken away at nearly no cost. Where was the protection of the owners of those assets when they needed it? It certainly did not come from the Government. I\u2019ve said it before, I\u2019ll keep saying it: this is the largest State-sponsored theft of assets since Treaty breaches in the 19th century. It is unconscionable and there\u2019s no way to polish that up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022532f8d8c18e949618f7706be86ecb841\u0022\u003ERachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, goodness gracious!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f87a6b5a60da4a97b79845c9e20feaca\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, here they go. Yeah. Oh. See, when they don\u2019t have a good argument, they just attack the arguer. And here\u2019s a remarkable admission: remember that the case for water services entities is that the prices that users will pay are going to be lower than they otherwise would be had the 67 councils continued to rate their ratepayers for water as they have. If that\u2019s the case, why do we need to regulate to control the overcharging by water services entities? I\u2019ve got a reason why. My theory is this and it\u2019s a pretty strong one, I think: there is no way in hell that those four water services entities can deliver the cost reductions in capital and operating costs that were purported by the Water Services Entities Bill. It\u2019s just not possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s another admission in here, and that is that the consumers need protection\u2014the protection that was taken away from them in the ability to vote out councils they don\u2019t agree with when they\u2019re not doing the right thing on water. So, on the one hand, we take away the very strong powers that consumers have if they don\u2019t like what their councils do, and then provide a legislative protection from the very council that took those protections away. It\u2019s a complete oxymoron.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ENow, we\u2019ve heard from both Shanan Halbert and Anna Lorck\u2014ad nauseam, as the Labour members have done\u2014that our water quality is poor. Now, Auckland had extreme weather events over the weekend. I was actually there on Monday and it was beautiful, 27 degrees, hardly a cloud in the sky, not a breath of wind. Aucklanders were breathing a big sigh of relief because they had had significant downpours that had led to the faecal counts in stormwater going into Auckland harbour to be unacceptably high. That\u2019s not good enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EWhat they don\u2019t say is that that problem is being fixed by one of the largest infrastructure projects in Auckland\u2019s history\u2014the Central Interceptor, I think it\u2019s called. Andrew Bayly and I visited it, didn\u2019t we, when they put the Tunnel Boring Machine\u2014I\u2019m not sure if it had a fancy name like the City Rail Link, but it was heading underground and going under Manukau Harbour; a massive water tunnel that will more clearly separate our storm and foul water and prevent the sorts of unacceptable discharges into the areas like Simon O\u2019Connor\u2019s electorate\u2014the beautiful area of T\u0101maki\u2014and on the North Shore, as Shanan Halbert said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EBut the point is: we didn\u2019t need legislation for Watercare Auckland to do what it needed to do. It had sensible rates, and it has gone ahead and fixed it. Even in Anna Lorck\u2019s electorate, which was the so-called genesis of this State centralisation project, they\u2019ve already fixed their water-quality issues, a $35 million project by the Hastings District Council. That has not needed State intervention, it shouldn\u2019t have happened in the first place; it was fixed. It didn\u2019t need a State intervention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EBut the most ironic thing is trying to reconcile Ms Lorck\u2019s comments with the Minister\u2019s. Because the very case for a fees regime is that larger metropolitan areas like Auckland are going to subsidise smaller metropolitan areas like, I don\u2019t know, Waipukurau or Havelock. Because, as he said, if this didn\u2019t happen, then the water rate increases on those smaller councils would be disproportionately higher than Auckland\u2019s. So Aucklanders are going to be paying more for their water\u2014or rather, more for water\u2014and it\u2019s going to be going to other parts of the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019m not sure what I think about that. There are many reasons to live in smaller areas, and sometimes that comes at a cost. So the lower house prices, lower land prices, the ease of getting around, the quality of schools, and the opportunities for jobs in the regional sector\u2014all good reasons for living in smaller cities and towns around New Zealand, but one of the costs of living in those areas is sometimes a slightly higher rate on things like water. Now, that is being taken away and the 1.5 million Aucklanders are going to have to pay more than they otherwise would, because of this arrangement. Labour\u2019s own Phil Goff opposed that very, very strongly when this regime came out, and not surprising.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EThe other very interesting part of this bill is the nexus between price and quality that the regulator is going to be required to enforce. Which begs the question, really: what the water-quality regulator\u2014which was set up with the support of the National Party last year\u2014is actually there to do. It is the principal water-quality regulator. Why is a branch of the Commerce Commission then going to make arbitrary judgments about the nexus between price and quality? Because if it does have to regulate on price, it\u2019s probably going to have to say to a water services entity, \u201CIn order to control the prices that you charge to your users, there needs to be some compromise on quality.\u201D Otherwise, I\u2019m not sure why this bill actually even mentions that. So I want the Finance and Expenditure Committee to have a very close look at how this is going to play out and how it reconciles with the water regulator that\u2019s been established by last year\u2019s regulation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ll oppose this because we oppose the State-sponsored theft of assets. We oppose the candy-coating of the benefits, the catastrophising of water quality right now, and the demonising of councils. And we will reverse this legislation at the first opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002264a806b6b2c64f56bda1f595dd34ec90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264a806b6b2c64f56bda1f595dd34ec90\u0022\u003ERACHEL BROOKING (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker, for this opportunity to speak as the last speaker on this fourth bill that\u2019s part of the package of reforming our three waters\u2014being stormwater, waste water, and drinking water.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ENow, Simon Watts, in his contribution, said that the case for change for this package of reform has been built on sand. I refute that totally and say that it\u2019s built on under-funded pipes and treatment stations, and the need for more of these things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWe see here that this bill establishes an economic regulator and consumer protections by using the existing Commerce Commission and adding in a new water services commissioner. I recommend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221f20f89ba0ee46f38b10a11ba3a240e1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Water Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Protection Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 74\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 45\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000174\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000175\u0022\u003EThe result corrected after originally being announced as Ayes 74, Noes 43.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b0907ac4d3c549989652fdb952554ecb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EWater Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Protection Bill be considered by the Finance and Expenditure Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 74\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022bbc7cff9666343568698ab2491a38c29\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bbc7cff9666343568698ab2491a38c29\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Finance and Expenditure Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aec60e4304f64b87badb6179c05b44bf\u0022\u003EInstruction to Finance and Expenditure Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022fbd0f9ea500a443cb3cbf617326af0e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fbd0f9ea500a443cb3cbf617326af0e3\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Water Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Protection Bill be reported to the House by 25 May 2023.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f4efdc66aa1d449ca5b1ea66d45fe8cf\u0022\u003EVoting\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002239a1a81863724970a92de35cb1c41d1b\u0022\u003ECorrection\u2014Water Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Protection Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u0022a57c3d77de0d422aa421c7ca4fe24e3a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a57c3d77de0d422aa421c7ca4fe24e3a\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. My apologies. I should have cast two votes against the bill for Te Paati M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad1d65c1bc4f45c59f67bab9f4e0712f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: OK. That\u2019s what I thought I was asking. Can you seek leave that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d01b492c74d6457c8613a9a08cf9852f\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE\u003C/span\u003E: May I seek the leave of the House to correct the voting record on the Water Services Economic Efficiency and Consumer Protection Bill and cast two votes against the bill, on behalf of Te Paati M\u0101ori?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002285ef8bb1c0df470e97eaf26c1a47dda8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002285ef8bb1c0df470e97eaf26c1a47dda8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is none. We\u2019ll just get that updated. Therefore, the record will be altered to say that the Ayes are 74 and the Noes are 45. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002215eeef4312c148c0aa673587c3a4f54f\u0022\u003EHuman Rights (Incitement on Ground of Religious Belief) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022be2540df7b764d8cb9e29feb3337d238\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022 data-id=\u00228ee31c4ae05a47e7b4633d8b93a2e344\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ee31c4ae05a47e7b4633d8b93a2e344\u0022\u003EHon KIRITAPU ALLAN (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Human Rights (Incitement on Ground of Religious Belief) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd3467744fd44b14be9b6ab941ff4cce\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295e06474d0ee4203b44660ed1e382cde\u0022\u003EHon KIRITAPU ALLAN\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Human Rights (Incitement on Ground of Religious Belief) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Justice Committee to consider the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EThis bill gives effect to a key Government priority to respond to the recommendations of the royal commission of inquiry into the terrorist attack on Christchurch masjidain on 15 March 2019. The key change that this bill makes relates to the parts of the Human Rights Act which prohibit speech that excites hostility against or brings into contempt people based on their colour, race, ethnicity, or nationality. We\u2019re expanding these provisions so that they will now also protect groups based on the grounds of religious belief.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EThis change responds to a part of recommendation 40 of the royal commission. A key part of this recommendation was to add religion to the list of protected characteristics under the law which prohibits speech which incites hatred. The commission considers that religious beliefs should be added for a number of reasons, including, and most significantly, in order to reflect the current realities of Islamophobia and the association between hate speech and terrorism. In addition, the commission noted that the change aligns the incitement provisions with comparable jurisdictions, brings New Zealand into compliance with the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, and removes the current discrepancy where Jews and Sikhs are protected under provisions as ethnic groups but followers of Islam and Christianity are not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EThis work also meets part of the Labour 2020 election manifesto commitment to strengthen protections for groups under the Human Rights Act from speech that is likely to incite others to feel hostility or contempt towards another group. This type of speech is about influencing how people see a population group and causing hateful views about people in that group. Speech that incites hostility or contempt causes significant harm to both those specific groups and to society as a whole, seeking to divide communities and hinder our social inclusion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EAt the extreme end, there is evidence of the spread of this type of speech, alongside other circumstances, being a precursor to violence. Victims can experience the loss of their right to feel safe, freedom of movement and expression, and, at the right extreme end of the spectrum, the right to life, if someone is killed as a result of incitement or hostility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EThe royal commission found hate speech to be on the same spectrum of harmful behaviour as terrorism and that there is a link between hate speech and hate-motivated crimes. They saw value in seeking to reduce hate speech, not only to prevent the direct harm it causes but also to limit escalation of such speech to hate-motivated crimes. Today\u2019s online world of communications creates particular challenges, adding to the potential harm and highlighting the need for solid laws to protect vulnerable individuals and communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EEvidence and analysis has shown that faith-based groups are vulnerable to extreme forms of harmful speech, in addition to those groups already covered by these provisions. For example, Netsafe\u2019s 2018 survey on the impact of online harmful speech found that religion was the most frequent perceived reason of being personally targeted with online harmful speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EThe current incitement provisions consist of both civil and criminal provisions\u2014sections 61 and 131 of the Human Rights Act, respectively. The bill adds religious belief to the existing grounds of national and ethnic origins, race, and colour to provide more protections for faith-based communities. Our engagement last year on proposals to strengthen the incitement and discrimination provisions in the Human Rights Act generated extensive public debate. Face-to-face feedback from affected communities largely showed support, including for the protection from incitement on the basis of religious belief.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EThe Government has carefully considered what next steps should be taken, considering this response as well as the need to respond to the significant harm caused by speech that incites hostility or contempt, and to hate crime. We\u2019ve decided to take a staged approach to tackling hate-motivated offending. This bill is the first part of this approach and will immediately provide better protections from speech that incites hostility towards groups based on their religious belief.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EThe second part of our approach is to have the Law Commission carry out a comprehensive review of incitement, discrimination, and hate crime laws. Other proposals in last year\u2019s discussion document on incitement laws such as harsher penalties and different thresholds, and for explicit protections against discrimination for other communities, will be also considered by the Law Commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EBy taking action on our incitement laws, the Government intends to enhance the ability of all New Zealanders to enjoy their rights and freedoms free from harm. The Government remains committed to implementing the recommendations of the royal commission as a key priority. This change will implement an important part of recommendation 40 of the commission. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002207f61be8cdf54dcd83870e5077881534\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207f61be8cdf54dcd83870e5077881534\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00222e1a1362b3344973a758b635beb0fda5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e1a1362b3344973a758b635beb0fda5\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Thank you for the opportunity to speak on this Human Rights (Incitement on Ground of Religious Belief) Amendment Bill. It\u2019s an important proposal that\u2019s been made by the Government and we should place it in the context of the work that they say they\u2019re doing in relation to the matter more generally. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI do want to comment on the way that this particular piece of legislation interacts with the Human Rights Act as a whole, and other aspects of our statutory regime. So, within my time share, I\u2019d like to concentrate on that, under the heading of \u201Cregime\u201D; also another \u201CR\u201D, \u201Creligious belief\u201D, and the particular reasons that it\u2019s actually quite dangerous, I think, for us as a Parliament to seek to legislate, certainly in a criminal way, against freedom of expression in relation to religious beliefs; and the other \u201CR\u201D is \u201Cresponse\u201D, the response that we should instinctively look towards in answering the question: how do we as a Parliament and as a society and as a democracy want to respond to language that we might regard as untrue, unfair, or unreasonable?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo, first of all, in relation to the regime\u2014actually, I should start, in case it\u2019s not been obvious from my introductory remarks, by stating National\u2019s position on this. We have made it clear through public comments, but I state for the record now clearly that we don\u2019t support this bill. We think that while it may be well motivated in the sense of looking to protect certain sections of society, we don\u2019t think it will be effective to do that, and, at the same time, it will also risk major unintended consequences in terms of the chilling effects on free speech and all that that implies for our democratic and, largely, free society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo taking the first of those \u201CRs\u201D: the regime. I want to talk about the fact that the Human Rights Act already prohibits discrimination on certain grounds\u2014essentially, protecting, therefore, certain groups, under section 21. Of those, some, but not all, are currently protected against what has loosely been described as an incitement provision. With all due respect, we need to examine what the provision actually says, because it\u2019s quite loose merely to talk about incitement, as though that were something along the lines of inciting violence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EBut if we look at those various groups in section 21, and we say, \u201CWell, it\u2019s anomalist that they\u2019re not all included.\u201D\u2014at the moment, we\u2019ve got, I think, colour, race, and ethnic or national origins. So that\u2019s not the full list. So why don\u2019t we have the full list? Well, that\u2019s a good question. We could add, as has been proposed here, religious belief. But why then will we not add the other grounds in section 21? Why don\u2019t we add other basis for communities forming together, having a shared identity? These are questions being asked by those who would say that the Government should go further. So they\u2019re pleasing no one. I don\u2019t think it\u2019s one of those situations in which political analysts can say, \u201CWell, there\u2019s dissatisfaction in one direction and also the other.\u201D\u2014let\u2019s say right, left, or liberal or conservative, or whatever, and say, \u201CWell, they\u2019ve probably got it about right in the middle.\u201D In fact, they will please no one, because this is an incoherent approach to lawmaking. They haven\u2019t added all the rest of the section 21 grounds. They haven\u2019t even said, in more general terms\u2014as probably they should, if they\u2019ve determined to restrict speech in this way\u2014that any group defined by its identity should be captured by whatever we decide the offence is and whatever those elements are. So that\u2019s the first thing, is to say, \u201CWell, who\u2019s actually going to be protected or captured by this kind of a law?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThen we ask where the line is drawn. So we can say, on the one hand, inciting violence against such people should be illegal\u2014the good news: it already is\u2014on the other hand, we could say that merely speaking ill of a group or offending their sensibilities would be the other option. Somewhere in between, you could have, for example, doing or saying a thing that could lead another person to discriminate against or harm, or whatever. So we have a choice on where we draw the line.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EWhere the line is currently drawn in section 131, which the Government is looking to introduce in relation to religious belief, as well, is the publication or distribution of words that are threatening, abusive, or insulting. There\u2019s a huge range there. I mean, to threaten someone is a very serious thing, but merely to insult them, I would say is very much different. Then, we have the result being either to excite hostility or ill will against or bring into contempt or ridicule. Well, again, these are quite different things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo while those who proposed this bill might say that it\u2019s important that we don\u2019t allow the incitement of violence\u2014again, to which we say, \u201CWe agree.\u201D, and which is already on the statute book\u2014but if you take the low watermark of those elements and we say that it should be a criminal offence merely to insult in a way that would incite ill will or bring into ridicule, we have a very dangerous position in which we have not only an incoherent law but one that is taking us down a very dangerous path in restricting freedom of expression, particularly when we then ask the question of who gets to decide this and how this thing is decided. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EOf course, it\u2019s the lack of clarity in such laws that we should always be very wary of because the person or persons, whether it\u2019s the judges or the Attorney-General who\u2019s asked to provide consent to prosecution, naturally have their own prejudices, their own perspectives\u2014and I say that not to cast any dispersions on any such decision makers or any of those who would aspire to those roles; it is human nature and the fact of the matter that we all have either a religious belief or a lack of a religious belief or, in many cases, people have some sort of combination of ethical or moral or religious perspective. These things are complicated and they can\u2019t be distilled easily into a provision in a piece of law in a way that would be proposed or suggested to be black and white and provide protection. So, so much for the regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EMy next \u201CR\u201D was \u201Creligious belief\u201D. It\u2019s my submission that, in the 21st century, it\u2019s inappropriate for this Parliament to be making laws that protect merely the sensibilities of those who have a religious belief or, again, a lack of religious belief. It wasn\u2019t that long ago\u2014in fact, it was the previous term of Parliament\u2014in which this institution repealed the crime\u2014yes, the crime\u2014of blasphemous liable. We said, at that time, collectively and, I think, unanimously, that it wasn\u2019t appropriate merely to protect the feelings, in essence, of those who have particular views or beliefs, given that we live in a pluralistic society and, also, I would say, at least as importantly, because the free exchange of expression of ideas is such that when a thing is proposed, a thing can be opposed, and it\u2019s, of course, in that market place of ideas, that to and fro, that we have the best opportunity as a society, as a democracy, of arriving at the truth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s also the case that, when it comes to political or policy debates and discussions among us more generally as human beings, those who have a religious belief might put forward a certain perspective\u2014that\u2019s their right, even their responsibility. Well, that\u2019s fine and that\u2019s good and that\u2019s as it should be, but to allow such people the protection against criticism back the other way\u2014or a counter-proposal, in policy terms\u2014would seem to privilege one group against another. Therefore, I don\u2019t think it would be helpful to them or the cause of democracy, freedom, and the pursuit of truth more generally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EOf course, it\u2019s in the nature of faith or belief of a religious nature that these things can\u2019t be proved or disproved\u2014that\u2019s almost by definition. So if we say that certain beliefs are beyond challenge in a way that might risk bringing into contempt or ridicule, then we are in a very dangerous situation again, as I would suggest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe third and final \u201CR\u201D, having covered the regime and the nature of religious belief, is the response. So what is our response more generally to the idea that things can be said that might be untrue or unfair or unreasonable? The answer, of course, should be that things that are true, fair, and reasonable, respectively, are the best counters to those. This is obviously not a new idea\u2014it\u2019s certainly not original to me or this discussion or this debate\u2014but I think it\u2019s an idea that\u2019s worth recanvasing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIf we consider ourselves an enlightened society\u2014and I use that term in the context of having gone through an enlightenment and believing that there is such a thing as an ideal of a pursuit of truth that can be gained in a democratic\u2014as opposed to a theocratic or an autocratic\u2014way, then we should be very careful, indeed, about the possibility of restricting that flow, that exchange of information and ideas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand Bill of Rights Act discussion on the matter, which was provided by the advisers, as opposed to the Attorney-General himself, concluded, actually, after a really good discussion about the importance of freedom of expression, the breadth of that right and the possibility of chilling effect of such legislation, we heard ultimately that this was a justifiable limitation. I respectively cannot come close to agreeing with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo, for all these reasons, National says, with all due respect and understanding the good motivations that might underlie the introduction of such legislation, we cannot support it. It is a dangerous place for our democracy to head to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa03338dcb6d4deb84ae07e8b7e11f35\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa03338dcb6d4deb84ae07e8b7e11f35\u0022\u003EGINNY ANDERSEN (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora. Kia ora, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to take a brief call on the Human Rights (Incitement on Ground of Religious Belief) Amendment Bill. Currently, under the Human Rights Act 1993, it is illegal to publish or distribute threatening, abusive, or insulting words likely to excite hostility against or bring into contempt any group on the grounds of race, colour, ethnic, or national origins. Those grounds, under this legislation, will now be extended in both the civil and the criminal provisions to cover religious belief. The changes being undertaken are part of this Government\u2019s response to the recommendations of the royal commission of inquiry into the terrorist attack in Christchurch on March 15th. This change will protect more groups from harm and strengthen social cohesion in Aotearoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe Government has carefully taken consideration in this space as to what next steps should be taken. We\u2019ve decided to take a staged approach to tackle hate-motivated offending. This bill is the first part of an approach that will immediately provide better protections for people from speech that incites hostility towards groups based on their religious belief. The second part of our approach is to have the Law Commission carry out a comprehensive review of incitement, discrimination, and hate laws. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThis is a good piece of legislation. I look forward to the select committee process and receiving submissions from across New Zealand on how we can strengthen our laws in this space. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf93437b7c5b46879afc78f3b182b994\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf93437b7c5b46879afc78f3b182b994\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E You wouldn\u2019t believe that 2\u00BD years ago, this Parliament reversed blasphemy laws in New Zealand. Now, I better be clear: that in itself was not unbelievable. I personally think reversing our blasphemy laws at that time was a good and appropriate activity. As some with wit put to me, the big guy upstairs isn\u2019t easily offended and nor is he going to turn up in the court room.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EBut what is unbelievable is that 2\u00BD years later, the left wing and the Labour Party are reintroducing, in effect, a blasphemy law into New Zealand. It is here to entrench a very particular view on hate speech. And let\u2019s be very clear, as I have been in the House before: this piece of legislation has very little, if anything, to do with hateful speech, but speech which the left, in particular, hate. It\u2019s a very, very dangerous bill. There is no need for it in general, and there is absolutely no need for it around this ground of religious belief, and I want to tease a little bit of that out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EFirst and foremost, this is another attack, another affront, on one of the most core and basic elements of a democracy: free speech. It is being eroded. It\u2019s already been eroded. This Government has form when it comes to undermining and dividing this country. It doesn\u2019t matter if it\u2019s the notion of co-governance, which, as I\u2019ve written recently, is absolutely mutually exclusive to democracy. We\u2019ve had a Government that\u2019s passed laws which restrict where people can stand and protest. They\u2019ve passed laws which even restrict the speech that parents and professionals can have with their children and other people. This is a Government that already has form when it comes to eroding and undermining our democratic principles. And here we are today, on this morning, debating how, from the left, they can undermine freedom of speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EWe must, as a House, push back against this. There is no need for it. Free speech is what enables us to get along, and the irony in free speech, at times, is that those conversations, those speeches freely had, can be confronting, challenging, critical\u2014you name it. That\u2019s the very nature of democracy. What is being suggested here is the social cohesion theory, which is bouncing around at the moment, that, somehow, as human beings, we can all just be wonderful and civilised, and we\u2019re just all going to agree, and it\u2019s all going to be nice. Well, that\u2019s not how it works. The only regimes in history where everyone agrees are called totalitarians regime, and everyone is monological.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ENow, let\u2019s be really clear: I don\u2019t like argument, as such. I don\u2019t like angry, aggressive, nasty, critical speech. However, we\u2019re human beings; we have different views, different viewpoints, different things we are passionate about, different moral views, different ethical views\u2014this cuts and undermines the heart of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EAnd we already see\u2014we already see\u2014those barrelling in behind this law, who think it\u2019s a wonderful law. These are the people, already, who tried to exercise the thug\u2019s veto across the society. They\u2019re the very people who stopped women talking about women\u2019s rights at the Auckland University of Technology earlier this year. They are the same people who tried to ban others turning up to university to talk about such topics as, I don\u2019t know, the Treaty of Waitangi. These are people who protest the ability of others to speak a different viewpoint. They\u2019re the ones who have all the isms and all the phobias that are thrown about in labelling people to condemn and stop them. They are the ones enthusiastically behind this bill, because, as I said at the start, their interest is not really around hate speech\u2014what even that is, by the way? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThe media and others throw the word \u201Chate\u201D around like lollies these days. What does it even mean? How is it even defined? Who gets to define it? My previous speaker and colleague Chris Penk put it forward: how does one define \u201Charm\u201D and \u201Chate\u201D? Do I get to define it or does someone else get to define it? It\u2019s indefinable, and that is quite deliberate here, because this is ultimately about power and control, which is what this left-wing Government is wanting to exercise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EAnd be under no illusion, this is a stalking-horse piece of legislation. The Minister confirmed it at the start\u2014this is just the first tranche. They think this is an easy win, to bring in religious belief as a grounds to limit speech. Be under no illusion: those who suffer from PVS\u2014or what I call \u201Cperpetual victim syndrome\u201D\u2014are already lining up to add themselves in here, that they must be protected. Their views on life are so fragile\u2014so fragile\u2014they need laws to protect them from, as they would call it, harm. We do not need this legislation. We actually do not need to protect many, if any, groups for hate speech, per se. We should all be free to critique and challenge, and this is deeply, deeply inappropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EI want to turn to the religious side. There is, as I say, no need for this, for at least two reasons. First and foremost, I am proudly a religious man, unapologetically Roman Catholic. I do not want this. I don\u2019t need protection. I get challenged every day for my views. If I wanted to use this piece of law, I could say it\u2019s all hateful and harmful to me. \u201CSomeone challenged my belief system.\u201D Well, la-di-da, I can accept it. That\u2019s the nature of religion. Religion, by its definition, is arrogant. It really is, and I say that as someone who\u2019s well theologically trained. The thing about religion is it makes massive moral claims. I\u2019m Catholic because I don\u2019t agree with views on other religions, and other religions are not Catholic because they don\u2019t agree with me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t need a piece of law to stop those people having conversations. What we do is we talk more. We talk, we challenge. It\u2019s called ecumenism. You talk. This attempt at law is to shut that down. It says that if you say something that might insult my religion, ridicule my religion, insult or be contemptuous, it could now be hate speech. That is going to shut down discussion in something which is, by its nature\u2014by its very nature; religion, as I say, is bold, it\u2019s beautiful, but there is an arrogance to it. It believes it\u2019s right\u2014it believes it\u2019s right\u2014and that\u2019s going to be stopped, effectively, by this law. And I say again, as someone with a religious belief, there is absolutely no need for this. In fact, if we\u2019re going to confront the challenges, if you will, within religious belief, we need more conversation, not shutting it down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EI mean, what on earth is this going to look like where different groups and religious groups say, \u201CWell, I don\u2019t like you challenging my belief about the big guy in the sky. You\u2019ve insulted me.\u201D What\u2019s this going to mean for various cultish groups in society who claim that now they are being incited on the grounds of their religious belief? The Minister mentioned Islam, predictably. That\u2019s fine. We\u2019ve got Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Pastafarianism\u2014where\u2019s it going to end?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022648fd0c560fc461cbf06f512a129c23c\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Jedis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226047e59b2a2c4c36aeb03cb8e85ff684\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Jedis, of course. God help us if anyone decides to say, you know, Star Trek\u2019s better than Star Wars\u2014that\u2019s probably ridiculing. This is all about belief and this is why it is such a dangerous piece of legislation. There is absolutely no need for it. And I want to put on the record again, as someone who supported the removal of blasphemy laws and unapologetically has religious belief: we do not need this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EAnd I want to finish by suggesting to people who are listening at home of what to do, and it\u2019s twofold. First and foremost, submit to the select committee. Say that you believe in democracy, that you believe in free speech, and that you are against this increasingly left-wing Government which is attacking and undermining the core foundations of our democracy. Explain your reasons why you believe free speech matters, why it so critically matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EAnd, as I said at the start, those supporting this bill are already the ones who try to exercise the thug\u2019s veto. They write copiously into media that everything that, you know, affects their argument harms them. They\u2019re the people who throw around those isms and phobias. These are the people who never\u2014well, actually, anything they disagree with now is disinformation or misinformation. Of course, often it\u2019s not the case; it\u2019s just, simply, that which is misinformation is what\u2019s put forward by someone who\u2019s not left wing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EAnd the last point\u2014the last point\u2014and it\u2019s somewhat tongue in cheek, but if this law, unfortunately, passes in the House, it\u2019s certainly my encouragement to New Zealanders: use it. Overwhelm the system. Any time a person feels that their religious belief has been attacked, write and call the Human Rights Commission, call the police, go to the courts. In recent weeks, we\u2019ve had people attacking the likes of Bethlehem College, that they have a certain view on marriage and on religion. Well, this is going to be great for them, because you know what? That\u2019s now an incitement on the ground of religious belief. Take those people to the Human Rights Commission. Drag them before the courts. Overwhelm the system and show the absolute absurdity of this law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ENow, let me be really, really clear in my final seconds: I actually don\u2019t want this bill. I don\u2019t want this to be happening, but if this Government\u2019s going to pass such a stupid law, show them how absurd it is and overwhelm the system any time your belief is challenged, and show up those activists and others what this really means, and just how dangerous this is for democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022 data-id=\u00227dc221f7a1944f068435cf71d304bf25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227dc221f7a1944f068435cf71d304bf25\u0022\u003ESORAYA PEKE-MASON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m pleased to stand and take a call on the Human Rights (Incitement on Ground of Religious Belief) Amendment Bill. I hope that what happened in Christchurch masjidain in 2019 never ever, ever happens again in Aotearoa. Regardless of what your religious beliefs are, to do nothing is not an option. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003ESection 21 does not cut it. I\u2019m pleased to see these extensions in both the civil section 61 and criminal section 131 provisions in this amendment bill. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022 data-id=\u002208803700e8114cf88c5d596a69f13fe4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208803700e8114cf88c5d596a69f13fe4\u0022\u003EGOLRIZ GHAHRAMAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I want to begin by acknowledging the shuhada of the masjidain terror attack on March 15th, 2019, when our collective hearts were broken. As the shockwaves of that attack rippled through our nation, we heard from Aotearoa that we had never thought something like that could happen here. We heard that we stand for inclusion, we stand for equality. But the other thing that we did hear\u2014and it\u2019s important to acknowledge that\u2014is that we heard from our most marginalised communities about all the ways that that hate, that extremism, that, to some extent, formed our experience, was known. We heard from M\u0101ori who lifted the voices of the Muslim community. We can\u2019t shed our skin or our disabilities or change who we love. One of the heartbreaking lessons of March 15th was that the Muslim community had been reporting an absolute increase in incitement, in threats of violence, in hate against their communities. They had travelled around New Zealand to meet with different police chiefs in different police stations, and our systems and our institutions had no way of recording or responding to what that community was trying to alert us of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003ESo when the Opposition says that this law is about banning debate, I want them to also answer this question: how, then\u2014how\u2014can we change our systems and our laws to become responsive to incitement, that those marginalised communities are experiencing and, in many cases, are reporting? How do we prevent the next real-life act of atrocity from happening? I want to say, as someone who has spent years of my life working in atrocity crime courts and having to read thousands of pages of witness evidence and looking at the history of those atrocities, that they begin with hate. They begin with dehumanising a particular group based on its inherent characteristics. Those groups are race groups, they are gender minorities, they are the rainbow community, disabilities groups, and they are faith communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003ESo we know that the faith communities do need those protections. In that respect, this is a good change. It is one that is overdue by many years. We know that this work began with a comprehensive review conducted by the Human Rights Commission in 2016, and that that review more or less shadows what we found in the royal commission report on Christchurch, that our hate speech laws and our hate crime laws are not fit for purpose. They don\u2019t reflect what modern extremism looks like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003ENow, it\u2019s important to hold that we do limit speech in many, many ways already in our laws to protect individuals. We do outlaw incitement. We even outlaw defamation, which is damaging someone\u2019s reputation. But all the ways that we recognise that harm through speech is possible and not acceptable in our laws only apply to protect individuals, never groups. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EBut we know, and we have learnt first-hand in, now, modern memory, that atrocities are begotten of harmful speech\u2014not debate; incitement, harm. All modern human rights - based democracies recognise this and acknowledge it with strong hate speech laws, so it\u2019s well defined and it exists among jurisdictions that we normally compare ourselves to. It exists even in the United States, that bastion of free speech; in the European Union; in Canada; and the UK. They recognise that hate speech is harmful, that it leads to real-life violence, but also that it is, in fact, a threat to free speech itself, that it silences groups, silences marginalised communities from debate, from public life. Every woman in this House knows a little bit of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EThe Holocaust and Antisemitism Foundation, the Islamic Women\u2019s Council, and the Human Rights Commission support this law change. To write all of those groups off as woke or leftist is absurd. What we owe and what this Government owes is to listen. One of the responses to the recommendations of the royal commission report that came quickly\u2014and this one did not come quickly, so this law is still overdue, and I hate that we\u2019ll be debating it in an election year where we will hear from all of the traditional groups that have something to gain from marginalising groups further. But one of the things that the Government did respond to quickly was to commit to holding annual hui on extremism nationwide, to include all the groups that are affected by extremism, by hate, by terror, and bring them together with experts, with Government agencies, and talk about what the threat looks like now, to be forward-looking. That\u2019s what the royal commission recommended. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EThis year, I sat through every session of that hui, and, in Auckland, we heard over and over again on what threats are on the rise. We saw the charts. Yes, faith communities are still at risk, race communities are still at risk. But the one that everyone was screaming about in terms of their research and experience was violent misogyny. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003ESo I want to talk about what this bill does not include and the U-turn that the Government did from its initial released draft. It does not include gender, the disabilities community, or our rainbow communities; that is a failure. From a month or so ago when this bill was first announced, we heard from the communities that are being left out. They were forced to campaign, to make themselves visible to those traditional threateners of their peace, of their safety, in order to campaign for inclusion. While we have a Centre of Research Excellence for Preventing and Countering Violent Extremism, an annual hui being held as a response to a royal commission report that has told us that violent misogyny, that the threat against rainbow communities, and, in the wake of COVID, the threat against disabilities communities is what is, in fact, on the rise in New Zealand. It breaks my heart that those communities now have to make themselves visible and vulnerable in order to retell their trauma, to reprove their vulnerability, for lack of a better word. They are strong, but they are also vulnerable, in order for us to act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003ESo this bill, whilst it does a little bit of what we need in order to make our nation truly inclusive, truly equal, is also a failure in courage for standing with the communities and responding to what real extremism looks like in Aotearoa today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EI want to go back to those days following the Christchurch terror attack. I want to remember that our nation came together with courage and with love, that we gathered together across this beautiful country in all our public places. We wrapped our arms around our Muslim community. We held our little ones a little bit tighter as we cried, and we committed to making that safe, inclusive, equal place a reality. The city of Dunedin ran out of flowers because they were all at the mosque. Those people out there are watching. They expect us to show courage. They expect us to shine a light in all of the dark little places where hate, where extremism, where those threats do exist among our otherwise loving society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003ESo we, the Green Party, will continue to fight. We will continue to stand in solidarity with the communities that are now being exposed, having to publicly campaign again for a responsive, progressive, human rights - based law change. We will stand with you and we will ensure that you are protected. Come to select committee, tell your stories, and we will stand with you and lift your voices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EKia hora te marino\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EKia whakapapa pounamu te moana\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EAroha atu, aroha mai\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003ET\u0101tou i a t\u0101tou katoa\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003E[May peace be widespread\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EMay the ocean become like pounamu\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EGive well, receive well\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003ELet us show respect for one another]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u002284994514cc0945dd9cd1a74c939aeae8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284994514cc0945dd9cd1a74c939aeae8\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on behalf of ACT in opposition to this Human Rights (Incitement on Ground of Religious Belief) Amendment Bill, this narrowed-down hate speech law Labour has finally brought to the House. And I start by saying what a back-down, what a massive back-down by this Government, and what an enormous victory for free speech in New Zealand. To put this in perspective, here\u2019s the letter that I received from Kris Faafoi, the Minister\u2019s predecessor, on 9 December 2020. And the proposal was to redefine the criminal offence, shifting the criminal offence from the Human Rights Act into the Crimes Act, increasing the penalty for the criminal offence, extending incitement provisions to protect all groups listed under the \u201CProhibited grounds of discrimination\u201D section in the Human Rights Act, and extending the civil provisions in line with international obligations by including prohibition of incitement to discrimination against a group and amending the prohibited grounds of discrimination to explicitly protect transgender, diverse, and intersex people. That\u2019s what Kris Faafoi was promising on 9 December, two years and one week ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EAnd, today, we have the Minister coming to the House with this enormous back-down bill, where they are going to add one grounds of discrimination\u2014with the same penalties\u2014to the existing bill, staying in the Human Rights Act. And, people might ask why the Government has backed down so much. Well, actually, we could have told them. They could have found out for themselves if they\u2019d just taken the time to read the royal commission report that they say they\u2019re following the recommendations from. It says, \u201CThe difference between legitimately criminalised hate speech and a vigorous exercise of the right to express opinions is not easy to capture\u2014at least with any precision\u2014in legislative language.\u201D Well, that\u2019s what the Government\u2019s found. It goes on to say as well, \u201CThe more far reaching law creating hate speech offences, the greater the potential for inconsistency with the right to freedom of expression.\u201D That\u2019s what the Labour Party\u2019s discovered in the last two years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EAnd so what have they done? Well, they\u2019ve backed down in a victory for free speech. And it\u2019s a victory, for example, for the over 40,000 people who signed ACT\u2019s free speech petition over those two years\u2014those people who value the liberal traditions of this country and the right to freedom of expression enshrined in our Bill of Rights Act. And what this back-down bill really says is that they are going to extend a law that the Minister openly admits will never lead to a prosecution. That\u2019s why, previously, they wanted to change the nature of the criminal offence. They\u2019ve dropped that. And I asked the Prime Minister in the House yesterday: is she saying that this law is going to do nothing, or is she saying that people are going to be prosecuted for criticising religion? She can\u2019t have it both ways, and she couldn\u2019t say which one it was either. And that seemed to frustrate her, leading to some hate speech of her own, but we won\u2019t go into that now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019ve got is a victory for free speech, but the remnants of this particular law are still wrong. This law still chills and curtails free speech on the most unusual candidate there could possibly be, and that is religion. You see, I can understand wanting to protect people against being attacked for unchangeable aspects of their identity\u2014particularly your ethnic identity\u2014but I can never understand why, if the Labour Government was going to ban debate about any issue, it would be religion, because the only way that movements like the labour movement, a liberal-left movement that has done a lot of good in its time, were possible was because of an enlightenment where people who insisted that you could not have valid views unless they were with the current church of the time were challenged, and it was made possible for people to express their views regardless. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EAnd then we come back to what the Human Rights Commission said about it being difficult to capture the nature of hate speech, in legislation, with any precision. Well, that\u2019s the other big problem. Apart from the fact that the law probably won\u2019t do anything, apart from the fact that religion is a very odd thing to ban debate on or to try and restrict debate on, there\u2019s also this fundamental problem of consistency with the rule of law, and it goes back 800 years to Magna Carta\u2014the simple idea that I live in a free society and I can\u2019t be imprisoned or in any way sanctioned by the State without the right to defend myself against objective laws that apply the same to anyone. But the great difficulty with this law is that it\u2019s so subjective. You take something like burglary set out in the Crimes Act: did you enter the premises? Were you legally allowed to enter the premise? Did you commit another crime like theft? Someone accused of burglary can go to court and defend themselves based on facts and evidence, defend their rights against the Crown\u2014something that we have fought long and hard to win and maintain in our liberal society. But hate speech laws\u2014to the extent that they do anything\u2014take away that certainty and our basic liberal right. What they do is they mean you don\u2019t know if you\u2019re guilty to the point of prosecution, because, as the Human Rights Commission has said, the difference between legitimately criminalised hate speech and vigorous exercise of the right to express opinions is not easy to capture. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EAnd I should correct myself; that was the royal commission on Christchurch\u2014we don\u2019t hear such wise things from the Human Rights Commission, which should be gone. We are not only abandoning free speech; we are abandoning the rule of law for something that will not actually deliver any benefit, and, if it did, it would be restricting the ability to debate religion, which is what brought about the Reformation and the Enlightenment that made a Parliament like this in a democracy like New Zealand possible. That\u2019s how stupid this law is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EBut let me also give you a glimpse into what this means for our future. You see, I heard from somebody recently about the climate of debate and discussion in Western societies at the moment, and they said something that has really resonated with me. They said, \u201CThis is supposed to be an age of enlightenment, but you have to walk on eggshells with everything you say.\u201D A lot of people feel like that. They feel that if they say the wrong thing, they\u2019ll be cancelled, possibly face consequences at work, be beaten up or piled on or doxed, or any other number of modern social media phenomena. This is a time when we need to be encouraging free and open debate, not siding with the thugs and bullies who thought the only response to Salman Rushdie was to stab him in the neck because they didn\u2019t like his opinion. We should be standing up for freedom of expression and making it easier to share your views. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EBut let\u2019s give a glimpse into the future. We just heard from a Green member. This is the University of Auckland Greens on Campus on 10 October: \u201CThe University of Auckland Greens have chosen to abstain\u201D\u2014that\u2019s a big word for 17-year-olds\u2014\u201Cfrom attending this year\u2019s baby back-benchers debates and any future debates.\u201D And then they give a list of seven demands: one of them is that at this debate, they want the instituting of trained equity officers for the event, who are responsible for maintaining safety provisions and enforcement protocols; anyone in breach of the rules should be immediately removed. This is my alma mater. This is the University of Auckland, a top 100 university in the world, where young people who engage in politics boycott a debate until enforcers are installed at the debate to immediately remove people if they don\u2019t like what they say or if they think that something being said makes them feel unsafe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThis is a culture in a climate where the right to free expression\u2014hard fought, hard won, and hard maintained over centuries in our society\u2014is endangered in a very real way. And one thing that doesn\u2019t help\u2014even though it\u2019s a massive back-down; even though it probably won\u2019t do anything\u2014is this House and this Government introducing more laws to chill freedom of expression. Well, I could tell you, one party in this Parliament is always committed to upholding our traditions of free speech, and that is the ACT Party, and I can tell you that if you want to uphold free speech and have this law and other chilling hate speech laws reversed, then the best bet to achieve it is a party vote for ACT. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u002278be1e9ad0574ec6a72f0e0f0248a498\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002278be1e9ad0574ec6a72f0e0f0248a498\u0022\u003EWILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, thank you. This will be a very brief call. This is to remind everybody in the House that the introduction of this piece of law is in response to the royal commission\u2019s recommendations after the Christchurch terrorist attack. This is our new normal, and this is our response to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EIt is important to understand for those that are listening today that this is a two-stage process, as the Minister has said in her introductory remarks. The first is this piece of legislation, and, second, the Law Commission will carry out a comprehensive review of incitement discrimination and hate crime law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EAs a member of the Justice Committee, I look forward to receiving submissions on this bill and to carefully considering them. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022 data-id=\u0022d716cc005cd5494a8f8bc1690d7f8151\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d716cc005cd5494a8f8bc1690d7f8151\u0022\u003ENICOLA GRIGG (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, look, Madam Speaker, I\u2019ve just, I think, got a split call on this, the Human Rights (Incitement on Ground of Religious Belief) Amendment Bill. As has been made clear, the National Party is going to oppose this bill, but it\u2019s not because we don\u2019t agree with the intent\u2014in fact, the intent is laudable\u2014but, as is so typical of this Government, this proposed legislation demonstrates a real lack of intelligent academic scrutiny. It is a complex and convoluted area, and I do think that we do need to start from the beginning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EAs a previous speaker has alluded to, this has come about why way of one of the recommendations of the royal commission on the Christchurch terrorist attacks, which the National Party does take very seriously. Nobody in this room, or, indeed, in this country, would condone the acts of atrocity that took place on 15 March 2019. I myself see the ramifications almost daily in my own electorate, I have a number of widows and families impacted by that attack living in region. However, this proposed amendment bill is not going to impact the very crux of the issue that caused that attack to come about. I think Golriz Ghahraman, when she made comments about how atrocities begin with hateful speech\u2014that is true. It\u2019s true. I agree with her. But it the societal condemnation of that hateful speech that is the solution; it\u2019s not passing once-over-lightly bills like this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EThe legislation proposes, as has been discussed, that it will be a crime to bring into contempt or ridicule upon any group due to their \u201Creligious belief\u201D, which risks criminalising speech that is a part and parcel of public discourse. We ask, on this side of the House: how on earth will that be policed and how will it be enacted, let alone how will it be proven?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003ENational firmly supports building greater social cohesion and inclusion, and we value diversity above many, many other aspects of society, but to achieve this safety for these kinds of groups, we need to be able to ask questions, we need to be able to discuss, and we need to be able to debate. For example, I think a right-thinking society should be able to challenge a fundamentalist organisation that murders homosexual people on the grounds of its own religion; we should be able to call them persecutors and terrorists.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to ask the question: will there be impacts on the survivors and critics of religious communities like Gloriavale? We\u2019ve seen many, many examples of evidence go in front of the courts recently, where girls and women are sexually assaulted, where they are raped, and where they are forced into marriages on the grounds of religion. Surely, we as a society have a place and, indeed, have a right to criticise that. That, by the definition of this bill, will make us in breach of this law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EWe do not support adding religious belief to criminal hate speech laws, it is going to significantly narrow the scope of free speech and expression in this country. Many people may not enjoy having their religious beliefs insulted, ridiculed, held in contempt, or questioned, but, as many speakers in this Chamber this morning have discussed, that is a fundamental right of the freedom of expression and speech in our society. This is a Draconian bill with a Draconian penalty regime that is only going to impact one of the fundamental tenants of a liberal democratic country. More speech, not less speech, and more debate, not less debate, is the best response to speech that people disagree with\u2014not bans and police investigations. We oppose this bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022c458b532c50a42b2b12a711b13e8882f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c458b532c50a42b2b12a711b13e8882f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: I call on Naisi Chen for five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022 data-id=\u002257796c8c30934adaa8e801123c7ef902\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002257796c8c30934adaa8e801123c7ef902\u0022\u003ENAISI CHEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. As I\u2019ve listened very carefully to the debate going around in this House, I do think that, often, including some of the speakers that have participated in this speech\u2014have lacked the views of a migrant. And when we talk about religion, obviously, a lot of times it does come in together with different ethnicities as well, and often these groups are not able to defend themselves in these spaces of public debate. And so that\u2019s why this bill will fundamentally help them in protecting their human rights. And so that\u2019s why I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022d23f63b1ea9a45509db786ba27489171\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d23f63b1ea9a45509db786ba27489171\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E M\u0101l\u014D e lelei, Madam Speaker. As previous speakers have said, the Government has given very careful consideration about how to respond to the inquiry conducted by the royal commission, and that\u2019s the reason why I support this bill. Members have also referred to the fact that it is a staged approach, and while this is step one, it will seek to tackle hate-motivated offending and to tackle that offending head-on. This will go to select committee, and no doubt the members of the Justice Committee will hear from submitters, and I\u2019m sure that many people will have much to say. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9406a38cbb24d5b862bde78f7dc2a38\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9406a38cbb24d5b862bde78f7dc2a38\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Well, I consider Kris Faafoi a friend, but it is fair to say that he left a series of landmines across Government that have now blown up in the Government\u2019s face, whether it\u2019s immigration; the justice portfolio more generally; or the TVNZ-RNZ merger, which seems to be coming apart at the seams; and then, of course, we get to hate speech, which poor old Kiri Allan\u2014again, someone I consider a mate\u2014has inherited from Kris Faafoi and has been asked by the Prime Minister to fix. But in the process of doing so, in the introduction of this bill, it has managed to please absolutely nobody, because this bill is being attacked from the right by the National Party and the ACT Party, and, of course, it\u2019s being attacked by the left as well. So we\u2019re in this bizarre position, or the Minister is in an invidious position, where nobody\u2014nobody\u2014basically, likes what she is proposing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EFrankly, this bill should be consigned to the dustbin of political history, and it shows, I think, a Government all at sea with its priorities in justice, because I do not believe and the National Party does not believe that this is the priority in the justice portfolio. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIn response to Tangi Utikere\u2019s point before about how this is the Government\u2019s considered response to the royal commission, there is nothing considered about this process. The royal commission reported three years ago and the Government said that they would do a bunch of things, and this bill is about the most minute response ever and everything else has been kicked off to the Law Commission, again. So it\u2019s the Government kicking this issue off into the long grass, and, no doubt, the Law Commission will do its very important work, it will come back in the life of the next Parliament, and we may well go round again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EBut I want to make the point and defend free speech, because I don\u2019t think the Government has made the case for why this is a justified limit\u2014the addition of religious belief\u2014to the Human Rights Act, or why this bill is a justified limit on section 14 of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, because, fundamentally, that\u2019s what this issue is all about. Section 14 of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act protects freedom of speech in all its forms, and freedom of expression in all its forms\u2014all communication. That\u2019s the starting point, and that\u2019s a quasi-constitutional statute. It\u2019s of fundamental importance, and I don\u2019t think the Government has made the case for why this is a justified limit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI want to make the case in my speech for free speech, because, as the Chief Justice of Canada, Beverley McLachlin, has said, free speech is \u201Cthe indispensable condition of nearly every other freedom\u201D. It is of paramount importance in a free and democratic society, and I think that it is a right worth guarding jealously and protecting fiercely. Millions of people have died for free speech, and I worry that we betray their legacy too much. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ENow, as David Seymour points out, free speech is a fundamental Enlightenment value, and the left used to be the party of the Enlightenment. The left used to be the party that protected Enlightenment values, and how things have changed. Now, the left tries to shut down speech that they don\u2019t like. We\u2019ve got the rise of cancel culture on universities. There was that absurd debacle four years ago, when the vice-chancellor of the University of Massey banned the mild-mannered Don Brash from speaking on campus in case some people were offended by what Don Brash said about whatever he was going to talk about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EBut I want to start with the simple proposition that free speech is integral to what makes us human. Free speech is important in and of itself. It allows individuals to articulate their own conception of the good life and to develop and realise their potential, and it protects everything\u2014that\u2019s the point about free speech. It protects the offensive T-shirts people wear, provocative art, challenging novels, the speech in this place, the finest parliamentary oration\u2014this is not a fine parliamentary oration, but I\u2019m sure we can all think of speeches in the past\u2014and the most boring Civil Service documents that we all consider on a daily basis. It undergirds our liberal, democratic society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EYou can\u2019t separate our democracy from free speech, and there\u2019s a reason why authoritarians from time immemorial have sought to control the press and not allow the free and democratic expression of the polity in the public domain. A Government that can hear its citizens and their demands is responsive to them. Freedom of speech protects good governance, and, of course, the classical liberal conception of free speech, I think, is important\u2014the market place of ideas. Unrestricted public debate allows the truth to prevail. The best ideas win out over the bad ones. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EAs Oliver Wendell Holmes put it in the Supreme Court in Abrams v United States, \u201Cthe best test of truth is the power of the thought to get itself accepted in the competition of the market\u201D. Think about the best changes of the last 40 years: the market economy; the destruction of \u201CFortress New Zealand\u201D; homosexual law reform; marriage equality; gay conversion therapy, in the last two or three years; or the Treaty of Waitangi settlements process, to take another example. Those big public policy debates that we\u2019ve had in the Parliament and in wider society over the last 30 or 40 years, all of them\u2014all of those debates\u2014have depended upon free speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe ability for people of good faith and conscience to make the case for or against made those changes sustainable and endurable in the long term, and, of course, free speech is a social safety valve. Speech that is suppressed doesn\u2019t cease to exist. Shutting down the mocking of religion, as this bill seeks to do, doesn\u2019t make those thoughts or make the speech go away. It just makes it more difficult to criticise in the market place of ideas, and it means that conspiracy rather than truth is likely to triumph. So I\u2019d rather have dumb, offensive ideas out there in the public domain for the debate and for mocking, rather than have them suppressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe whole point is that freedom of speech protects everyone and everything. It protects speech that\u2019s crazy, it protects speech that\u2019s rational, it protects speech that\u2019s unpopular at any given moment, and it protects offensive speech, humorous speech, and even ridiculous speech. As Chomsky said a few years ago, \u201CGoebbels was in favour of free speech for views that he liked. So was Stalin.\u201D If you\u2019re really in favour of free speech, then you\u2019re in favour of freedom of speech for precisely the views that you despise. Otherwise, you\u2019re not really in favour of free speech, and, of course, this bill is an impingement on free speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIt sounds mild\u2014\u201COh, I\u2019d just add religious belief. Who could be opposed to that?\u201D But, of course, religion is a choice. It\u2019s not like ethnicity or race. You can\u2019t choose how you were born, but you can choose what religion you are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo of course this bill raises significant concerns, because we want, in a free and democratic society, to be able to mock and excite hostility and condemn and criticise religion. Of course we want to be able to do that, and I have every respect for people of faith\u2014of all different faiths\u2014but the simple reality is that this bill will have an impact on people who want to criticise religious communities like Gloriavale. The Book of Mormon musical, for example, which is artistic expression, will raise serious concerns under this bill, and, of course, there is religious opposition to things like vaccination, for example. I, for one, think that those views are wrong, and I don\u2019t want to get in trouble for standing up and saying that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EActually, I have freedom of speech in this Parliament, but that right should be extended beyond that, and, of course, we should be able to mock a quasi-religion like Scientology. They believe in absurd things. Not everyone would say that, but I, for one, think that. So the ability to be able to mock and ridicule and excite hostility towards a religion like Scientology, Heaven\u2019s Gate, or any other religion that someone might choose to talk about is important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo this bill looks mild, but it isn\u2019t, because it ties into this culture of shutting down speech that we don\u2019t like, and it is reflective of a Government with the wrong priorities in justice. We oppose it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u002281883950db1d448282ca60ad947a1903\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281883950db1d448282ca60ad947a1903\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E This bill is pretty mild. It\u2019s a simple change that people can understand and appreciate, that makes speech that is likely to incite hostility unlawful. It should be read as part of the Government\u2019s staged approach to the royal commission of inquiry into the terrorist attack in Christchurch in March in 2019 that recommended these changes and others which the Government is making. This is a sensible bill. I look forward to interrogating it in select committee and having these fun debates that Chris Bishop enjoys, and I hope he comes along. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022317bf22764364d879696c93ed6e6bb4e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Human Rights (Incitement on Ground of Religious Belief) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 76\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000297\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00226ce93be5978f43aabb377860c0ade4c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ce93be5978f43aabb377860c0ade4c2\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the Human Rights (Incitement on Ground of Religious Belief) Amendment Bill be considered by the Justice Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Justice Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d1245152adc14c988fd7a4cc99cf7332\u0022\u003EInstruction to Justice Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022 data-id=\u0022a63f5ce7eb44468490b3f6ace1938eb4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a63f5ce7eb44468490b3f6ace1938eb4\u0022\u003EHon KIRITAPU ALLAN (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Human Rights (Incitement on Ground of Religious Belief) Amendment Bill be reported back to the House by 25 May 2023.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022d42c4091616645a8945171c013dcf798\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d42c4091616645a8945171c013dcf798\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Are there any objections to that motion?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221c5f05cc017a49538d7fbc26f07d8db3\u0022\u003ESale and Supply of Alcohol (Community Participation) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225c3e94312de141dd8a9618a0d5817978\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb47432ba9254db9a792a2f37ff3da2c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb47432ba9254db9a792a2f37ff3da2c\u0022\u003EHon KIRITAPU ALLAN (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Community Participation) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022093496a372f7428bae7889d0bdba5801\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c3d595a40a94f9d980e7659b8765705\u0022\u003EHon KIRITAPU ALLAN\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Community Participation) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Justice Committee to consider the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EThis bill responds to persistent issues with the Sale and Supply of Alcohol Act 2012 that have been identified across communities across New Zealand. When the Act was introduced it aimed to ensure the safe and responsible sale and consumption of alcohol. It also aimed to minimise alcohol-related harm. It is clear that the Act isn\u2019t working and it hasn\u2019t been effective to reduce harm. It has not given communities the voice that was envisaged when the Act came into force nearly 10 years ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EThe bill makes targeted changes to the licensing process set out in the Act, addressing three key issues. Firstly, the bill makes changes to how local alcohol policies, or LAPs, are adopted and applied. It removes the ability for parties to appeal provisional LAPs to the Alcohol Regulatory and Licensing Authority whilst retaining the avenues for judicial review. It also enables district licensing committees to decline a licence renewal application if it would be inconsistent with the policies set out in the relevant LAP. And there are a few clear reasons for making these changes. When the Act was passed in 2012, councils were given the ability to develop their own LAPs in consultation with the communities that they represent so that the alcohol regulation would reflect the unique character and circumstances of their local area. For years now, many LAPs have been held up in the appeals process, costing ratepayers millions of dollars while delaying and sometimes preventing councils from adopting LAPs at all. As of May this year, 86 percent of provisional LAPs have been appealed by supermarkets and 73 percent by bottle stores. Meanwhile, nearly two-thirds of New Zealand\u2019s population live in a council area that has not yet adopted an LAP. And so it is very clear to us that this balance needs to change. These changes to how LAPs are adopted and applied will minimise the barriers to adopting LAPs and ensure that they are more effective once they are in force, better serving as a tool for communities to reduce alcohol harm in their area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003ESecondly, the bill will remove existing barriers to community participation in alcohol licensing decisions. It will allow anyone to object to a licence or renewal application. This will also make the process more accessible. To support this we are also making changes to ensure licensing committees and the licensing authority have a range of measures available to effectively manage objections and appearances at licensing hearings. The current law allows people to object if they have greater interest than the public generally. However, only a small number of those who want to object to an application actually get the chance to do so because the law has been constructed and interpreted so narrowly. For instance, those who want to object on behalf of organisations or groups that have an interest in alcohol harm reduction may only be able to object in their personal capacity, if at all. I\u2019ve heard of school principals, addiction clinicians, and iwi that have not been able to object to applications on behalf of the communities that they serve. Only a fraction of applications for alcohol licences are refused. This demonstrates that communities are struggling to impact these local alcohol licensing decisions. In the last five years across our three largest cities nearly 7,000 alcohol licence applications were granted, with only 22 being declined. By allowing anyone to object, whether as an individual or representing a group or an organisation, the bill removes another barrier that stands in the way of community engagement and involvement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EThirdly, the bill will change how district licensing committee hearings are conducted so that they are more accessible\u2014they are fairer for participants. I\u2019ve heard that these hearings are often legalistic and adversarial. The current process is incredibly formal, with some participants saying they felt intimidated and harassed while under cross-examination by incredibly experienced lawyers representing the interests of well-resourced parties. This bill will require licensing committees to set up procedures so that hearings are run without any unnecessary formality. The bill removes cross-examination and does not permit those who appear at hearings to question other parties or witnesses of other parties. We will also make changes that enable licensing committees to hold hearings remotely, increasing the accessibility for participants who will now be able to join proceedings by phone, video link, or other remote-access facilities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EIt was always envisaged that people would have the opportunity to be heard when it came to how alcohol is sold locally. I\u2019ve heard loud and clear that this part of the Act just simply is not working. By making these targeted and much-needed changes, this bill addresses three key issues that have been identified across Aotearoa, particularly those that are battling the devastating effects of alcohol-related harm. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003EOur intention with this reform is to correct the balance of opportunity in the alcohol licensing process. This bill will enable communities to better participate in licensing decision-making in ways that they know work best for them. It will boost their influence to reduce alcohol harm in their local areas, and it\u2019s the first step in bringing power back to the people, where it belongs. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u00220c15d798162e4c818e8fc98fec16fb19\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c15d798162e4c818e8fc98fec16fb19\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. The Sale and Supply of Alcohol Act 2012 was a notoriously difficult piece of legislation to get through this House. It came out of the Law Commission\u2019s 2009 report, Alcohol in our Lives, and its supplementary report Curbing the Harm, which came out in April 2010, with over 150 recommendations for changes to our alcohol laws. And most of those recommendations, the National Government supported\u2014some it supported in part, and others it did not support because it didn\u2019t believe that it would actually reduce harm and improve our regulatory framework for the sale and supply of alcohol. Now, I think Ministers Power and Collins did an outstanding job in navigating through all of those recommendations and coming up with what was a very good piece of legislation. Despite the many criticisms that came of the previous Government, most of those criticisms were that it didn\u2019t go far enough or fast enough. But it\u2019s worth keeping in mind that that 2012 Act was the first material constraining of alcohol regulation for nearly 80 years, and there\u2019s no doubt that it had a positive impact\u2014the degree to which it has is open to a bit of debate, and certainly our alcohol use and misuse is quite lumpy, as was indicated in the supplementary analysis report, which I\u2019ll come to in a minute\u2014but it did certainly reduce the per capita consumption of alcohol in this country\u2014that was probably happening a bit anyway. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EWhat\u2019s also happened over the years is that while we may be drinking less overall, there are pockets of our community that do drink hazardously and harmfully, and for some of them\u2014particularly our young\u2014that hasn\u2019t been perhaps as effective as we would\u2019ve liked. Page 7 of that supplementary analysis highlights that lumpiness: around 20 percent of New Zealanders drink hazardously; that rate remains stable over six years; males are twice as likely to drink hazardously than females; 18- to 24-year-olds; and M\u0101ori and Pacific people\u2014Pacific people are less likely to drink, but if they do, they\u2019re more likely to drink hazardously, so it really is a complicated picture. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ENow, one of the number one principles that underpinned that legislation was the idea that communities would have more control of the nature, number, and location of alcohol outlets through these local alcohol policies. And I strongly supported that, even though I wasn\u2019t convinced that it was going to work. Paragraph 11 of that supplementary analysis says that alcohol-related harms fall disproportionately on New Zealanders living in the poorest neighbourhoods, who are 1.3 times more likely to report drinking hazardously than those living in the wealthiest. Now, that implies that the nature and location of liquor outlets is actually driving that harmful drinking, and I wasn\u2019t convinced by that in 2011 when we were considering the base bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EBut in actual fact, we had a small number of live laboratories around the country to test that theory\u2014Invercargill was one of them. Invercargill has been under alcohol licensing for generations, so the licensing trust in Invercargill does just that: it controls the nature, number, and location of alcohol outlets. One cannot go and buy a bottle of wine at a supermarket in Invercargill; there are liquor stores, but they are controlled as to where they are\u2014and, of course, the profits from those liquor stores actually are poured back into the community, and a lot of the sporting and cultural assets in Invercargill are funded by that trust. It\u2019s a very good system, I think. But one would think that if there was control of alcohol outlets, that harm in Invercargill would be lower than the national average. Now, I haven\u2019t looked at it recently, but I do remember in 2012 when considering this, that actually the opposite was the case. Hazardous drinking, alcohol harm, alcohol-related road accidents, and violent crime was higher than the national average. So it does not follow that by simply controlling the location of liquor outlets, harm will necessarily reduce.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EAll of that said, I\u2019m a strong supporter of communities being able to choose whether or not they have a certain number or type of alcohol outlets; that\u2019s an important principle, I think. I should say from the outset that National\u2019s opposition to this bill\u2014and we will oppose it at first reading\u2014is not an indication that the local alcohol policies framework is not in need of improvement\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022726313f2b3a345d3a0236e5a3dde9d45\u0022\u003EAnna Lorck\u003C/span\u003E: All you\u2019re doing is opposing\u2014the whole time, all you do is oppose, oppose, oppose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c6e61728ded47fcbc6359b25c003df6\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: Pipe down, Ms Lorck, and maybe we\u2019ll have an interesting and sensible conversation, for once, about bills we debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226aa83f7aae9544a2b4bc2b03d36d152e\u0022\u003EAnna Lorck\u003C/span\u003E: You just never\u2014you just oppose, the whole time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221270e14d6ec3400987ce68a351da71e3\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s why they call them debates, Anna Lorck! People have different views; it\u2019s called free speech\u2014although we\u2019ve just had a bit of a conversation about that as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ESo the fact that we\u2019re not going to support this bill at first reading is not an indication that the local alcohol policy (LAP) framework is not in need of improvement; it\u2019s an indication that this is not the solution. This is not the way we should go, and essentially what this bill is doing is picking favourable and unfavourable submitters on a local alcohol policy, and I don\u2019t think that\u2019s right. Actually, in the explanatory note of the bill, on page 2 it says\u2014and this is really interesting\u2014\u201CDLCs\u201D (district licensing committees) and the \u201CARLA\u201D (Alcohol Regulatory and Licensing Authority)\u2014under this bill\u2014\u201C[will] have [the] provisions available to manage the volume of objections and appearances before licensing hearings\u201D. That\u2019s picking winners, but that\u2019s consistent with a Government that, when the number of submissions on bills and things gets a bit unwieldy for them, they just ignore them\u2014they try and control the ability of people to submit. Now, I accept, without question, that competitors have overly slowed down the process of getting LAPs through, but the solution is not to prevent that; the solution is to expedite it in a more timely fashion, and we have a considerable problem in this country with civil delay, and it\u2019s gotten worse in the last five years. The solution to civil delay is not to curtail people\u2019s democratic right to make a submission on a bill or a policy; it\u2019s to streamline that process and make those voices heard but not get bogged down in it. So we understand the problem\u2014we don\u2019t believe this is the right solution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ENow, there are many good elements, I think, in this bill, and I look forward to the select committee process actually fleshing them out, and it may well be that there is a place we can get to where National can support this bill\u2014but curtailing people\u2019s ability to contribute is not the answer. Now, the Minister in her first reading speech actually made a comment that I wanted to touch on in my conclusion, and that is the number of councils that haven\u2019t actually adopted a local alcohol policy. That concerns me greatly, because what we\u2019re trying to solve is a problem where the policies are being usurped, but, actually, councils have it within their power to work with their communities to create the local alcohol policies that are appropriate to them, and that has not happened in many cases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdfd0290d61049e7835cb3617654d780\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: No, they\u2019re being repealed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228188288d1c2c4a0dad248515fdaa5f6e\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: Perhaps\u2014well, no, that\u2019s not what the Minister said. That is happening, that\u2019s true, but there was a separate comment which they hadn\u2019t even got going in the first place, and I think it behoves those councils to work harder. In my own home city of Dunedin, we had the opposite problem, where the alcohol policy\u2014according to the mayor of the time, the late Sir Dave Cull\u2014was not sufficiently robust to stop a liquor outlet going in on the corner of Princes Street and Moray Place, right in the heart of where hazardous drinking occurs, particularly by our young; and he threw his hands up and said, \u201COh, well, we couldn\u2019t do anything about it\u201D. That is wrong\u2014he had the power, through the local alcohol policy, for him and his council and the licensing authorities to do something different. So I think we need to make sure that the councils use the powers that they do have, and then support them with a more expeditious process for finalising that does not involve curtailing the right of people to have a say on those policies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00229d4a5e3eb6c34efc966966f40a140714\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d4a5e3eb6c34efc966966f40a140714\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u002229259784acbd4ee1894502e52d895ed8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002229259784acbd4ee1894502e52d895ed8\u0022\u003EGINNY ANDERSEN (Labour\u2014Hutt South):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Well, in my days when I worked in Parliament, I was taught a really important lesson: you shouldn\u2019t go to a Minister with a problem unless you had a solution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe National Party, at points of time like this, resembles a children\u2019s birthday party, where they chase each other around without actually knowing what the outcome is going to be. So I weep for the National Party today, for simply bleating about community issues that cause pain and suffering, without having any tangible outcomes or solutions. That is the epitome of the National Party to me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ECommunities are battling with the effects of alcohol-related harm, which was introduced by National in 2012 and contributed to the silencing of our communities\u2019 voices and favoured the interests of those in the alcohol industry, who made money at the expense of the wellbeing of our people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI commend this bill to the House. It is a current appeal process that is failing and is costing our councils and ratepayers millions in legal fees, as alcohol companies and supermarkets thwarted the effects of local councils to limit the sale and the harm that puts upon our people. I\u2019m proud to be part of a Government that is strongly taking a stance to make this work better, and I\u2019m ashamed of those opposite who can\u2019t stand up and back an outcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00225fd99fe64fd644dbab88f08e6f939d63\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225fd99fe64fd644dbab88f08e6f939d63\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I appreciate the chance to have a contribution to this, the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Community Participation) Amendment Bill. As the Hon Michael Woodhouse has already said on behalf of the National Party, we don\u2019t support the bill in its current form; therefore, we won\u2019t be supporting it at the first reading. But we do look forward to a discussion and a debate at the select committee process. We\u2019ll hear from submitters, no doubt, on various different sides of the issue, and we\u2019ll see if there\u2019s a shape that the bill can be worked into that will make it worth supporting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EOf course, the starting point is that we acknowledge that alcohol is a dangerous drug\u2014or at least it\u2019s a drug that\u2019s used dangerously by some in our society; of course, it\u2019s capable of being used in a way that\u2019s not dangerous, it\u2019s capable of being consumed\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f15e5915dd6840b4bf3f292319e70769\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: For hand sanitiser, for example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222691d6672e9848f4b50f833a92a39353\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014in moderation. Our colleague and friend from the ACT Party points out that hand sanitiser contains alcohol.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EBut if we\u2019re talking about sale and supply and, actually, I\u2019d add \u201Cconsumption\u201D of alcohol\u2014that\u2019s word\u2019s not in the title of the legislation\u2014we can distinguish this from some other drugs that are not capable of being consumed in moderation. So that\u2019s the starting point: an acknowledgment that there is harm caused in our community by the way that some of our fellow Kiwis consume alcohol. If you doubt that, there\u2019s the press gallery party tonight, and anyone who wishes to head along and gain any content for their submissions at the select committee process\u2014you know, if they\u2019ve received an invite\u2014would be able to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EBut, actually, this isn\u2019t really a bill about alcohol; this is a bill about civil procedure. This is a bill about processes that currently allow participation by various different groups, community and otherwise, in terms of the way that local area plans are made by territorial authorities\u2014aka, councils\u2014in relation to local ways of allowing outlets to operate, and so forth. It\u2019s actually really important, lest anyone should think that this is merely a bureaucratic or a technocratic matter to ensure that there is a robust process by which these plans are made, because, if an enduring solution is to be reached that will provide, for the long term, a community with a plan and a set of processes\u2014for example, as to the location of liquor outlets\u2014then, actually, there needs to be a process that is respected and respectable in terms of the way that is made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ENow, it might be the case\u2014indeed, I don\u2019t dispute that it is the case\u2014that, at the moment, the process is capable of abuse by those who have a vested interest of a commercial nature. But the solution, as the Hon Michael Woodhouse has pointed out, is actually to enable and facilitate, indeed provide a process that people can have their say much more quickly and effectively than is currently the case so that communities can have in place plans that are appropriate for them, rather than to say, \u201CWell, the way that we achieve such a process is by saying that half the evidence won\u2019t be brought out.\u201D If we doubt the basic nature of what\u2019s happening here, we should look at all the other judicial and quasi-judicial bodies in this country also beset by delays, heartbreak, and, frankly, the ruin of many lives, as across the Family Court, the District Court, the High Court, the Supreme Court, the coroner\u2019s court, various authorities and tribunals\u2014absolutely disgraceful delays.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EYes, there are some longstanding fundamental problems, but, yes, they have got worse in the last five years. Yes, they have been exacerbated by the COVID-19 response. But, no, there hasn\u2019t been enough imagination, there hasn\u2019t been enough technological ingenuity, even to the point of providing a reasonable level of facilities of audiovisual links, for example. And so there\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b39651876bf484bb63b1b5df5e635ee\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t blame the courts. These appeals are brought to delay the courts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fecc9e44dc6410c9651d82a8ff11bbd\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we hear that it shouldn\u2019t be the court that should be blamed. I\u2019m not blaming the court; I\u2019m blaming the Government that presides over a system that doesn\u2019t provide the leadership and\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f293d848542d4450bb83c55612c3718f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Go ahead, Chris Penk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a7df346965e4256b52dde7b835ffb4b\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014thank you, Madam Speaker\u2014a forum in which voices can be heard. How ironic that the other side of the House is shouting down these points that are being made. We have a major problem with access to justice in this country. Justice delayed is justice denied, and we have, in this case, the notion that the communities are denied justice in the sense of having the plans put in place that they need to have because of the systems being overly slow, legalistic, we\u2019ve heard\u2014well, it\u2019s a legal environment. I mean, we do need to have an environment where we have a robust process where everyone can be heard and then an enduring solution can be reached.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo, if we look, for example, at what exactly is proposed\u2014and, as I say, I look forward genuinely to hearing the ways in which this is going to operate, at select committee\u2014we hear that there\u2019ll be the removal of ability to appeal provisions, provisional local alcohol policies\u2014LAPs, so called\u2014and requirements to consult on discontinued ones. Well, the requirement to consult is probably a good one. But the removal of the ability to appeal: well, unless that\u2019s an abuse of process\u2014and I accept, actually, the point that my colleague and friend across the House makes, sometimes it can be an abuse of process, and appeals can be made merely to delay, and that\u2019s, again, a problem in the justice system more generally. It\u2019s often been said that an incompetent lawyer can delay a trial for weeks, but a good one can delay it for months or years. These are things to which we should be aware and alive, but to say, then, that there shouldn\u2019t be a right of appeal, and if we\u2019re interested in evidence-based policy, then to preclude the evidence from the process whereby the community and those affected by these plans\u2014if we\u2019re precluding those voices and precluding that evidence, then, actually, as a House, we\u2019re not interested in evidence-based policy, and that\u2019s exactly what we should be looking to and allowing, and with the result that will apply in each individual community going forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo we hear, then, that the bill will have procedures that avoid unnecessary formality. Well, that\u2019s a good thing in itself. I\u2019ve given that a little tick, for what that\u2019s worth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EBut I put a question mark next to the next two bullet points: \u201Cdo not permit those who appear at hearings to question any party or witness\u201D. So it will be possible to put forward a view or an opinion or a feeling or a vibe or a prejudice that may or may not be backed up by evidence. Without the ability to ask questions and say, \u201CActually, where did that come from?\u201D, and actually to test that and not to permit cross-examination, which is the next bullet point, which is a related point, but to not allow the discussion to be tested by either side actually asking questions of the other, such that the impartial decision-maker can come to a conclusion, it just seems absolutely extraordinary to me. I mean, they\u2019re going about it in the wrong way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EWithin my remaining time, I will simply point out the obvious, which is that that there are many good ways of reducing alcohol harm\u2014\u201Cminimising harm\u201D, as the phrase goes. One of these, the alcohol and other drug treatment court, for example, was established by National, it\u2019s been extended by the current Government to various places\u2014that\u2019s a positive thing. There are lots of things that we can do in the communities, and it might be that there\u2019s a better process that can be put in place\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022383f0ef06de64ec59684de056a3d72d4\u0022\u003EAnna Lorck\u003C/span\u003E: There is; it\u2019s in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0119e35d0754142ae637544aca6dcee\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014for the local alcohol plans. The other side say, \u201Cit\u2019s in the bill.\u201D, and that\u2019s fine; we can have that discussion and that debate. But in the meantime, there\u2019s no evidence\u2014and we\u2019re interested in evidence in this law\u2014that this is going to be a better process that actually enables enduring solutions to be reached. It doesn\u2019t appear to us that\u2019s the case. That\u2019s why we do not support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022f96abbf98a7d40ec9ef7c0c6576c8664\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f96abbf98a7d40ec9ef7c0c6576c8664\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to speak on what is a great bill. This is an exciting day for South Auckland. I\u2019m really proud as the member of Manurewa to stand here and say that the community of Manurewa, that has been calling for a stop to the proliferation of bottle stores, is getting that because this Minister of Justice is brave and this Government is delivering for South Aucklanders. It is a good day. It\u2019s doing that because the continual appeals of the Auckland local alcohol policy have resulted in very light-touch regulation for the country\u2019s most dangerous drug, that is available to everyone on every street corner in South Auckland. The neighbours don\u2019t want it. The mums of Manurewa Playcentre don\u2019t want it. The church leaders, the principals, the iwi leaders, the M\u0101ori wardens\u2014they don\u2019t want those alcohol shops, and this Government is giving them a voice. It\u2019s giving them a voice like the Government tried to do in 2012 and failed because councils weren\u2019t able to put in the local alcohol policies that they want. Councillors around the table have been asking Governments to do this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re doing the hard thing. We\u2019re making it possible for those local alcohol policies to be put in place. We\u2019re making it possible, for when submitters go along to these hearings, that they\u2019re not put under cross-examination by well-paid lawyers who are set to make it so uncomfortable for them that they won\u2019t try again. And we\u2019re making it possible to have a procedure within the room that is respectful of everyone. This is a great bill. I hope in select committee that we can bring our colleagues on the other side on side with it, because this is something that we should all be able to support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4e992f4c3cb4f61b7031f33ab363e19\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4e992f4c3cb4f61b7031f33ab363e19\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m pleased to take a call on the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Community Participation) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe Green Party strongly supports this bill. It gives power back to councils and it gives power back to communities to avoid harm from alcohol. I really acknowledge the work of my colleague Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick, who would like to be here today. As our drug reform spokesperson, she has been working alongside M\u0101ori health organisations, Alcohol Healthwatch, H\u0101pai Hauora, and councils around the motu to advance the need to change the law. It was her bill that was pulled from the members\u2019 bill ballot earlier this year, the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Harm Minimisation) Amendment Bill, which has helped inspire Government to put this bill in place because it responds to the concerns of councils around the country. In \u014Ctautahi, Christchurch, the Christchurch City Council has spent a million dollars and seven years seeking to develop a local alcohol policy only to abandon it in 2017 because of the aggressive work of the industry in seeking to stymie it through the appeals process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo this bill is a good bill because it means that organisations and individuals can no longer appeal provisional provisions in those local alcohol policies, which the councils have been trying to develop to the Alcohol Regulatory and Licensing Authority. Those appeals were fundamentally by supermarkets and bottle stores and the alcohol industry seeking to prevent councils expressing the wishes of their communities to control the proliferation of bottle stores and the proliferation of alcohol. So we also support the widening of the discretion to the district licensing committee so that they can more easily decline applications for licences\u2014they can decline them if they\u2019re inconsistent with the local alcohol policy. Previously, that discretion was quite restrictive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe justice Minister commented on the intention to widen the scope for individuals and organisations to participate in the licensing process because, at the moment, the law refers to people with a greater interest than the public generally being able to make submissions, and that that had been structured and interpreted narrowly. I was really interested in that because that same phraseology, with a greater interest than the public generally, is in the Natural and Built Environment Bill. If in the alcohol area it\u2019s been used to restrict public participation, then there\u2019s a very real risk that if it\u2019s similarly interpreted by the courts, it could be used to restrict participation on natural environment issues. So I hope that that and the experience with this bill is something that the Environment Committee will look at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EMr Woodhouse, I think, was objecting to issues around trade competition and the inability to appeal on those grounds, but that has also been a key part of the Resource Management Act for a long time: supermarkets cannot object on the basis of trade competition. Despite that, we\u2019ve still seen the supermarket laws, so the provisions in the bill which put constraints around supermarkets, bottle stores, and others objecting solely on the grounds of trade competition are useful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EAlcohol harm, like all drug harm, isn\u2019t inevitable, but we are experiencing it on an enormous scale in Aotearoa. When we\u2019ve got evidence-based regulation, that can make a difference. This bill is responding to the evidence about the difficulties that councils have had in expressing the wishes of their communities through local alcohol policies, removing some of the barriers to councils getting those local alcohol policies completed, enabling greater participation, and enabling a much less legalistic, less adversarial process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ENow, Mr Penk objected to the restraints on cross-examination in those hearings. If individuals are being cross-examined by lawyers in suits representing big companies, that is extremely intimidating. I\u2019m hopeful that the panels, the licensing committees, will be asking questions using more of a mode of inquiry so that all of the information can be surfaced, but it does prevent the community being harassed by well-paid lawyers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo we support this bill. We would strongly encourage the Government to pursue the commitment the Minister has made to looking at marketing, sponsorship, and pricing, because the second part of Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u2019s harm minimisation bill is about winding down alcohol advertising and its sponsorship of sports in the broadcast industry to reduce the harm that alcohol does. This bill is a good first step. We encourage the Government to take that second step in this term. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u00228af46daf3d82460cbceea40e1230a7ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228af46daf3d82460cbceea40e1230a7ee\u0022\u003ENICOLE McKEE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I stand on behalf of the ACT Party to oppose the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Community Participation) Amendment Bill in its first reading. It\u2019s been quite a robust debate across the House\u2014I think mainly because Labour on the other side are not taking their 10-minute calls but rather doing 30-second ones, so perhaps that\u2019s why there\u2019s so much yelling across the way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EI think when you actually take the time to listen to some of the debates that are coming about from the Opposition, you might understand the concern. Because while the Government believes that they are fixing a problem with this piece of legislation, there are concerns about what the legislation actually does. That\u2019s why Opposition parties are opposing it, not actually potentially opposing the entire concept of the bill but aspects of the bill. And that\u2019s why we have debates in the House in a robust way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003ESo if we start off by looking at what these changes will actually achieve\u2014because it\u2019s going to amend the Sale and Supply of Alcohol Act 2012 and we\u2019re told it\u2019s going to improve the community\u2019s ability to be able to influence alcohol regulation\u2014the Government says that the reason why they\u2019re putting this bill through is because what we currently have is not working. Aspects that members have highlighted include going into court and having people in suits going up against individuals because the individual is trying to come against big business and they can\u2019t afford to be able to get lawyers in to debate their cause as well. So this is seen as being unfair and something that is needed to be amended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EI point out, though, this is not the only piece of legislation where individuals find themselves in that situation. The coroner\u2019s court is a really good example of where individuals who appear before the court end up having industries or lawyers for Government agencies actually fighting against what the individual has to say. They also find that intimidating.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EIt doesn\u2019t mean that we can introduce a law that takes away certain rights for people to be able to have robust debate, but it also means that we do have to introduce some laws where we make sure that there is fairness, that the individual that comes along has a fair hearing without feeling like they\u2019re being intimidated by a bunch of lawyers in suits representing big business. We just don\u2019t agree with the way that this law is going to go about achieving that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EWe acknowledge that there is potential harm in alcohol abuse. We see it, especially when we look at young kids with foetal alcohol syndrome, kids being born to alcoholic mothers. This is a problem that this bill isn\u2019t going to fix. We need to have a look at how we can address some of the issues from alcohol abuse, but this may not necessarily do it. However, we are looking forward to that robust discussion and debate\u2014and, of course, submissions that come in from all sides\u2014because that\u2019s the fair process and the fair way to ensure that we come out with good legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThe problem that we have\u2014and I hope I get this correct\u2014is we have territorial authorities who draft local alcohol policies (LAPs), and they go through a special consultation process. The Government keeps saying, \u201CWell, this isn\u2019t working because that consultation process is being held up with debates and with reviews and it\u2019s causing delays and, as a result, we\u2019re not getting those local alcohol policies actually going through the system. So we have some councils that don\u2019t even have any because they\u2019re getting tied up with the debates and the reviews around them.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s preventing the territorial authorities from introducing what the communities want as part of their local alcohol policies. The district licensing committees approve those LAPs and they also approve the new and renewed licence applications.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207b8ce9f18f046eba40eec6b36d7fd6d\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Nude or renewed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211c983a925804c8dabde971e21b46696\u0022\u003ENICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: Both. The new and renewed alcohol licence applications. But the district licensing committee process cannot account for any inconsistencies in the local alcohol policies if they have not yet been approved. So there\u2019s a bit of a conflict going on there. You\u2019ve got this intent to ensure that the process is aligning with what the community wants, but the community voice isn\u2019t being heard because they can\u2019t get through the process because of all the hold-ups. So we do have to look at how we can make sure that everybody gets a fair hearing, the processes go through quickly, and the community is heard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThe problem, though, is that the bill that\u2019s introduced here removes a particular voice, and that\u2019s the voice of the business owner. So when the business owner then has a conflict with what a policy may introduce\u2014wants to have an argument, I guess, or a debate about what the community perceives\u2014they\u2019re being restricted in their ability to do it because they are being blamed for holding up the process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003ESo while we say, \u201CLet\u2019s have a look at the process, then, to make sure it moves a bit quicker,\u201D actually denying somebody the voice\u2014especially when it comes down to their business\u2014I don\u2019t think, and neither does ACT, that that is the way to work through a situation where we have such major conflict.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThe other party, the Labour Party across the way, are being very vocal about this. We get that; we do understand that. But there\u2019s this other side, the other influence on this bill. And that means those people that are going to be affected, and that is the people who own businesses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EHow can they know from year to year whether or not they\u2019re going to have a viable business every time they go to renew their licence? They don\u2019t. So what does that mean for the staff that work for them? What does it mean for the families of those that work in the industry? What does it mean? It means that they don\u2019t have any certainty around employment. In this day and age, where we have a cost of living crisis, we need to make sure that they do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003ESo ensuring this also means looking at the evidence, and it was really hard for me to try and garner what the evidence was because there was so much of it missing. When we look at policy framework and whether or not we\u2019re going to make sure that pieces of legislation are able to be implemented and implemented well, we have to make sure the ducks are all in a row.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThe regulatory impact statement for this bill has not been prepared in time, and the reason why is because it\u2019s been done under urgency. How can we make sure good laws go through when it\u2019s done under urgency? In the departmental disclosure statement on page 4 in the sub note, it actually says it was done under urgency\u2014page 4, paragraph 2.3: it was done urgency and then we don\u2019t have the regulatory impact statement. A Supplementary Analysis Report was produced to go to Cabinet because they could not do the regulatory impact statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EWhen you look at some of the stats as well, we\u2019re seeing that we\u2019re actually reducing our alcohol intake in New Zealand. Stats New Zealand tells us this. They tell us how much people drink every year; they measure the alcohol consumption. For example, a 150-millilitre glass of wine at 12 percent alcohol by volume is 18 millilitres of alcohol. A 330-millilitre bottle of beer at 5 percent is 16.5 millilitres of alcohol. It\u2019s in the Stats New Zealand evidence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EIn 1986, the average Kiwi aged over 18 years old drank 12.2 litres of alcohol per annum\u2014that\u2019s about 1.85 drinks per day. The figure today is 9.2 litres per annum, which is 1.4 drinks per day. So the alcohol consumption in New Zealand is falling. We can do better with this, but it is falling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EWhat we also need to look at is whether or not we are going to allow businesses such as our bottle stores to continue to offer low- or no-alcohol products, which is also on the rise. Not everybody is drinking, but everyone should have the ability to make the choice. And everyone should have the ability to be able to conduct their business, or at least debate the reason why their business has been taken away from them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003ESo in this first instance, we will oppose this bill and hope we can sort out a resolution through select committee stage. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022 data-id=\u00225cddbb1717dc4436ba481575fea49b32\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225cddbb1717dc4436ba481575fea49b32\u0022\u003EANNA LORCK (Labour\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I have never heard so much nonsense from the National Party and the ACT Party as I\u2019ve heard now. National says it wants to back councils. This bill backs councils. Councils want to be able to have a say on the liquor stores that are built and run in their communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003EI speak on behalf of Henare O\u2019Keefe, who has fought tooth and nail in Flaxmere against a proliferation of alcohol stores. He wasn\u2019t able to get anywhere. This bill\u2014this bill\u2014puts the power in communities\u2019 hands to have a say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003ENational has no local in them. Everything they\u2019re opposing is just for politics. But this time, National has got it so, so wrong. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00228ca15609c39b4142b2730d0a9106fc24\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ca15609c39b4142b2730d0a9106fc24\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This is a split call. I call Simon Watts\u2014five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022e238e06a7b6c45b387d821210d047fbf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e238e06a7b6c45b387d821210d047fbf\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Eleven days to Christmas and my true love gave to me the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Community Participation) Amendment Bill. Well\u2014eleven days to go. And after listening to the contribution from the member for Tukituki, you can understand why this Government is looking forward to Christmas and getting out of this place. This is another bill in a trilogy, in a litany, in a long, long line of bills that are not going to deliver better outcomes for hard-working Kiwis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re getting a lot of jib from the other side, a lot of comment coming across, and I\u2019m going to use the opportunity to say\u2014I can tell you what, I can see who\u2019s driving a lot of people to drink in this country at the moment, and that is this Government. The way in which they are making such dismal decisions no doubt is driving a lot of people to despair and a lot of people to drink, and that is, obviously, not appropriate, but I can give hope to those people that next year things will change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThis bill is not based on any evidence, and if only this was the only bill that I could say that about. But we know, time and time again, bills come to this House, on to this Order Paper, rammed through under urgency by a Government that\u2019s using its majority, that are not based on evidence. The regulatory impact statement, as I heard from one of my colleagues before, hasn\u2019t even been done, and so, irrespective of where we are, this is rushed legislation that is not going to deliver the outcomes for hard-working Kiwis. That is a great shame, but it is reflective of a desperate Government that is on the ropes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ENational absolutely acknowledges the impact that alcohol and misuse has and the serious harms that alcohol has within our communities, but we also believe in the premise around personal responsibility. We need to ensure that we empower those elements within our community, particularly our business areas and our local government, to be able to play their role in regards to the implementation of laws in this space. This law takes away an appeals process, which, in effect, precludes the ability for parties that are impacted by this decision to provide evidence in regard to the decision. If this was the only bill that\u2019s taking away rights and responsibilities from hard-working Kiwis\u2014but, again, this adds to a long line of legislation that is following this ideological bent by this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThis appeal process and mechanisms to ensure that councils have the ability to implement or play a part in that conversation are being taken out. That\u2019s inconsistent with how this type of process operates in other areas, and it also, I think, as outlined by a colleague and friend, Chris Penk, really goes to the heart of weakening an overall process to ensure that appropriate debate is had on what are important conversations within our neighbourhoods and our communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ENational absolutely support the practical harm reduction initiatives that work alongside those within our community institutions, and, really, the answer to these solutions is very much at a neighbourhood and community level. My role as a volunteer ambulance officer and registered paramedic\u2014I see the impacts face-on in terms of alcohol and drugs, and what impact that has on individuals and family. And in those instances, the challenge, really, is ensuring that we have the appropriate support at both a family and wh\u0101nau level to support those individuals which have an underlying general addiction to alcohol. The restriction in terms of this process will not deal with the underlying aspects, which will actually provide solutions for those individuals, and that\u2019s a great shame.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ENational will be opposing this legislation. We will be following its progress through to the select committee process, but I really do wish that the members on the other side of the House use the opportunity over the summer break to reflect on what has occurred this year, and come back in the new year with a little bit more ambition and positivity. Thank you, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022 data-id=\u0022d46ff13d148d425694b3da16da17c714\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d46ff13d148d425694b3da16da17c714\u0022\u003ENAISI CHEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019ve never heard such controversy in one single speech. From the other side of the House, we heard that they were \u201Cfor harm minimisation from alcohol\u201D, then we heard that they \u201Csupported local communities\u201D, but what does their deed actually say? They\u2019re against all of that, they don\u2019t listen to their local communities, they don\u2019t actually go out on the streets to the communities that are the most affected by alcohol to hear what will actually help them. This bill is one that was driven through our grassroots organisations. That\u2019s why I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b23151a2edef4041a904c015c854b3f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b23151a2edef4041a904c015c854b3f1\u0022\u003EBARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. In my maiden speech, I stood in this House and I said the community knows what the community needs. This bill absolutely acknowledges what the community needs. Case in point, Dr Grant Hewison, who is representing Communities Against Alcohol Harm, spent 10 years in South Auckland\u201410 years in South Auckland\u2014advocating for such a bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ENow, Porirua is one of the few communities that has a local alcohol policy. It took them five years to get to the point where they could actually have a ratified local alcohol policy, and what that has meant is that advocates like Aiga Caroline Mareko and Sose Annandale, from Porirua East, and Liz Kelly, the CEO of the Porirua Wh\u0101nau Centre, they were able to support their community and use the local alcohol policy plus the current framework to be able to stand there and stop alcohol stores opening across the road from their local school. That is why this bill is in the House, because the community has asked us for it, the advocates like Dr Grant Hewison have asked us to do this, and I\u2019m proud to stand on this side of the House and commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022d0f55c1480a142489cfee03c8073aa31\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d0f55c1480a142489cfee03c8073aa31\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei):\u003C/span\u003E We have heard some great speeches from the Government, haven\u2019t we, but in all they\u2019ve lasted for 10 minutes of the last hour and a half. They must be absolutely convinced that this is the right way to go about it or they\u2019d have spoken for longer. Anyway, sorry, Madam Speaker, I\u2019ll get back to the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EAnyone would imagine, having been involved in local government, local alcohol plans, applications for licence, and applying for licence to dispense or sell alcohol, or having watched every second vacant store in their community turn up as a bottle store\u2014one could imagine that you\u2019d want to change the law and you\u2019d want to do something about it. And I dispute the comments from the other side of the House that the National Party are opposed to local communities making decisions for local communities. We\u2019re absolutely not. What we\u2019re opposed to is the manner in which they\u2019re going about it in this bill, and I\u2019ll explain myself as we go along. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EHaving been a part of this process myself for quite a bit of my life, far too much of my life actually, and having seen the challenges that communities have with every plan that council makes\u2014and you\u2019ve got to remember that every plan that council makes originates in this place here. We cause all these plans to be made; the councils don\u2019t. We cause the costs on ratepayers; the councils don\u2019t. All of this stuff comes and originates in the Parliament, and so the problem that they\u2019re trying to resolve in this bill doesn\u2019t solely relate to alcohol; it relates to every single piece of planning that a council does. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EWith every piece of planning a council does, you end up, to quote Eugenie Sage\u2014and fortunately for us, not all lawyers wear suits; there are other sorts of lawyers as well, but she doesn\u2019t seem to think so. There are always going to be lawyers involved in legal discussions in the planning that councils do, irrespective of where it comes from and how it works. So the challenge for communities and for us is to find a more equitable way for councils to arrange all of their planning activities, because in almost every aspect you find, whether it\u2019s property development or whether it\u2019s poker machines\u2014and I\u2019ll get on to that in a minute\u2014but whatever it is, the difficulty is always with the community because the community are always the volunteers who are leading discussion on behalf of their community against some form of business interest or professional interest or even local interest who are better funded than they are. That\u2019s just inevitably going to happen. So the problem here isn\u2019t fixing the alcohol law or the Sale and Supply of Alcohol Act 2012; the problem here is to find a way that councils can equitably put plans in place and involve their community in making those decisions without the community having to spend an inordinate amount of money getting there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI want to just touch on the challenges that we found, for example, with the licensing of poker machines in local communities. What effectively happens is you have advocates for and against the poker machine locations\u2014and this is exactly what we\u2019re trying to do with the alcohol bill here. You then have a whole lot of poker machine operators, and they could well be the alcohol store operators, who are advocating on their behalf in retaining the number of poker machines. So when a council puts a cap on the number of poker machines, they, effectively, create cartels because, effectively, you\u2019ve got a group of people who have got control of those poker machines, and the tighter you make it, the more money those people make. Simple as that. The point I\u2019m going to make is that making legislation and regulation to drop consumption and use of things doesn\u2019t work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll go to the cigarette industry right now to quote that. When I was young, you could buy a pack of cigarettes for 50c; they now cost $37 for the same packet of cigarettes. And do you know who buys them? The people who can\u2019t afford them generally, not the people who can. The people who can\u2019t afford them are the people who buy cigarettes. And so we\u2019re doing the same in that industry: we restrict the number of outlets for cigarettes; it doesn\u2019t make any difference to the people who buy them because they\u2019ll still go to the outlet that sells them. The difference is that they\u2019ll have to travel to get them. So my point is that the only thing that I think has created a huge opportunity in respect of the tobacco industry is education and the fact that we\u2019re now able to, I guess, quantify the harm they do, as well as stop people from smoking. My argument is the same thing would apply to alcohol.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EHaving said all that, I just want to go back to a point that was raised earlier in respect of the way this legislation is structured. Because if you have a local alcohol plan, and if you change the law in the manner this bill is proposing to do so, you\u2019ll end up with the potential for a perfectly legitimate business\u2014you could look at something like the Hokowhitu Village wines and spirits, who have been there for probably 50-odd years or 45 years in Hokowhitu Village in Palmerston North. They could easily find that, as part of the local alcohol plan, they suddenly are not a legitimate part of that plan. That business that\u2019s operated for years and years could suddenly find that, the next time they reapply for their licence, they\u2019ve lost their licence simply because the local alcohol plan contains content that precludes them from operating in that manner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI want to just go to something else that was raised in the course of this, and I\u2019m reading it quite modern now. [Member reads from mobile phone] I\u2019ve never done this in the House before, but I want to read a little piece out of a district alcohol plan, and it\u2019s talking\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5953b056f1648a988efc0132822ead2\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re a quite techno grandfather.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bcbb5dea478454caa0e4d745d0b9ccb\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I know. It talks about who can object to an application for an alcohol licence: \u201CA person may object to the grant of a licence only if he or she has a greater interest in the application [for it] than the public generally. You would be considered to have a greater interest if you lived close to the proposed premises, operated a business or organisation close to the premises, or had some other close connection with the proposed premises.\u201D When you read that, it\u2019s quite clear that the current licensing system allows an equitable group of people to contest that licence. I don\u2019t see any reason why someone who lives in Taumarunui, for example, should be able to oppose a licence for someone who lives in \u014Ch\u0101kune, which is 100 kilometres away. So this this bill, in my view, is just replicating what is already legitimate in the law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI go back to the point I raised earlier about the fact that almost all council plans, from the annual plan to whatever plan we\u2019ve got, have inequity in them that the Government are trying to fix. And this particular bill in respect of alcohol, which they\u2019ve also tried to fix in recent days in respect of other issues\u2014it needs to be generally reviewed and the whole collective way we go about these plans and giving communities voices in them needs to be changed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003ESo having said all that, we basically oppose the bill for some of the reasons I\u2019ve outlined. I think it was said earlier by one of the Government members that they hope they can put it in order so that we might support it at the second reading. Well, I hope they can, too, but they certainly won\u2019t be able to if it\u2019s got the content that\u2019s in it at the moment. Thank you, Madam Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022 data-id=\u002282427733ac424d63ae6020116393726b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282427733ac424d63ae6020116393726b\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. As the final speaker on this side of the House, I want to say some very short, quick comments. I thank all the members, specifically the members on this side of the House, who are very clear, in terms of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EThis bill will deliver to the people of our community, specifically to have community participation; there is a lot of evidence in the community\u2014Madam Speaker, just if you could indulge me just for a couple of seconds. I came from the community where we had a very difficult time in trying to go through the process that the legislation enacted by the previous Government said that we had the tools to challenge in the proceedings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EI just want to acknowledge our colleague Grant Hewison who is up there in gallery. For a number of years, we worked very, very hard in the community. For the community, as you\u2019ve heard, the speakers in Porirua, in Lower Hutt, in Flaxmere, in Howick in Auckland\u2014the community and Auckland Council across T\u0101maki-makau-rau, we had a very difficult time to challenge the district licensing panels.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EThis bill, the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Community Participation) Amendment Bill, will deliver the outcomes. I invite our members across the other side to come to South Auckland, come to my garage, I\u2019ll show you that evidence, loud and clear. It will show you that community participation to challenge in the process of district licensing is required.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EOn that note, we will get the consistency through this bill, through the process, when it goes to select committee. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c9bec76b7bc445e4aee0c75c3f8efa9b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Community Participation) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 76\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 64; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 10; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000413\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002259854e8960124118b2e5e4679644f06c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThat the Sale and Supply of Alcohol (Community Participation) Amendment Bill be considered by the Justice Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec9b214c116d43c1a0fa4a99b23cdeff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec9b214c116d43c1a0fa4a99b23cdeff\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Justice Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229f1cc83b09314e29b6862efeeb661a05\u0022\u003ETherapeutic Products Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226cf53af271814819bf6f2ed8bc559200\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u002266359f5be24a48eab77a055e5257f9e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266359f5be24a48eab77a055e5257f9e2\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Therapeutic Products Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e4155675d074d999a5c1bd049cd9975\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db86b893e5b34714bf4e0dd6e82f4d59\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Therapeutic Products Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Health Committee to consider the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EToday is a somewhat historic step forward towards a more modern, comprehensive, and risk-proportionate regulatory regime for therapeutic products in Aotearoa New Zealand. Bluntly, this bill is overdue. It\u2019s been more than 40 years since the introduction of the Medicines Act 1981, which this bill will replace. The Medicines Act does not cover all of the products used in modern healthcare delivery, and it simply hasn\u2019t kept pace with technological change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ENatural health products, which will be now covered by this bill, contribute $2.3 billion to our GDP. Goods exports are worth $642 million per annum, but the development of a natural health products industry and its potential to create jobs has been stymied by piecemeal regulatory responsibilities spread across multiple Government entities. The regulatory regime for natural health products has been hard-coded into antique legislation\u2014specifically, the Dietary Supplements Regulations from 1985, which is mandated, mysteriously, by the Food Act of 2014.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI haven\u2019t been in this House for very long, which is why I\u2019m very pleased to have the opportunity, hopefully, to continue, but when I was first elected in 2011, the very first piece of legislation that I dealt with before a select committee was the Natural Health Products Bill. That bill never passed, and the issues that it sought to address have now no legislation or proposed legislation to cover them. The Therapeutic Products Bill, which we\u2019re considering today, has been literally decades in the making, and, finally now we have an opportunity to move forward, notwithstanding the work of Todd Muller and his sunscreen products legislation that were put in place temporarily to cover this. The work of Todd Muller will now be covered by this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EFollowing the passing of the Pae Ora (Healthy Futures) Act, the Therapeutic Products Bill is one of the two foundational modernisations we must make to the law governing our public health system if we are to achieve healthy futures for all New Zealanders. The other is the mental health Act, and that work is well under way right now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe Therapeutic Products Bill will provide for the timely, comprehensive, risk-proportionate regulation of medicines, medical devices, active pharmaceutical ingredients, and natural health products, and it will also include cell, gene, and tissue therapies. The bill will regulate how products are manufactured, tested, imported, promoted, supplied, and exported. The new system will align with international best practice and will be futureproofed with flexibility to ensure effective control over new technologies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EGovernment intervention in and regulation of this sector is fundamental because of the potential for serious harm from the use and misuse of therapeutic products. Given the bill\u2019s significant impact on our future health and disability system, it\u2019s crucial that we get it right. After more than a decade of debate, I believe we have a strong bill for the Health Committee to now have a look at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI\u2019m conscious also that the bill draws lessons from our COVID experience. A key lesson was that we needed to make safe and effective therapeutic products available quickly during emergencies like that. It\u2019s my view that deficiencies in the current Medicines Act contributed to the rise of disinformation about the safe COVID-19 vaccine at the very time we needed our law to perform at its best. Conspiracy theories around how the vaccine was approved had their genesis in the present prescript requirements around emergency approval. In reality, that was the only mechanism for making an advance purchase order; indeed, it was the only mainstream mechanism, but it was never approval to administer the vaccine in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThis bill will finally provide a modern, comprehensive, and flexible regulatory regime for natural health products. This is a significant part of the bill and it will bring New Zealand in line with our international counterparts in export markets. Natural health products are categorised as therapeutic products because they are intended to have a therapeutic purpose. However, they will be regulated as a separate category to medicines and medical devices. The bill is designed to ensure there\u2019s a clear distinction between natural health products, medicines, foods, and cosmetics. The regulations applying to natural health products will reflect that they are generally lower-risk than medicines and medical devices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI want to talk a little bit about rongo\u0101 and Te Tiriti. Rongo\u0101 are spiritual practices and taonga. Rongo\u0101 is not medicine by the Western definition. The kawa and tikanga on the safe preparation, practice, and application of rongo\u0101 is diverse across iwi and hap\u016B. I\u2019ve seen commentary that rongo\u0101 is not presently regulated under the current law, but that\u2019s incorrect. Goods supplied with therapeutic claims are already captured under many parts of regulation. What has been missing has been appropriate and respectful protection of rongo\u0101. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ETe Tiriti o Waitangi principles are woven throughout this bill, reflecting how this is a fundamental component of it. However, rongo\u0101 is not mentioned or referred to in the bill. It\u2019s important that our overall regulatory settings support the traditional practice of rongo\u0101 while balancing this objective against the need to provide assurances for patient safety and export market access for rongo\u0101 practitioners. The Associate Minister of Health Peeni Henare and I have commissioned a stream of work to consider how these objectives might be achieved. This work will be led by Te Aka Whai Ora and Manat\u016B Hauora\u2014the Ministry of Health\u2014and guided by rongo\u0101 practitioners and M\u0101ori. I acknowledge Te K\u0101hui Rongo\u0101, who have met with us and will be engaged in that work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ETurning to one of the bill\u2019s key aspects, there is a requirement that therapeutic products receive a market authorisation before they can be lawfully imported into and exported from or supplied in New Zealand. Market authorisation for medicines and medical devices will be granted following an evaluation by the regulator of a product\u2019s safety, quality, and efficacy or performance. Natural health products will need to demonstrate that they are safe, that they are made to appropriate quality standards, and that health benefit claims are substantiated by either scientific or traditional evidence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe bill empowers secondary legislation for risk-proportionate approval pathways and determination of product standards. Reflecting their generally lower risk, natural health products will be able to apply for market authorisation through a self-assessment and declaration pathway. Some provisions in the bill will allow for the importation and supply of products without a market authorisation under tight controls.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe bill provides for regulation of controlled activities, including manufacturing, wholesale and non-wholesale supply, exporting, and conducting a clinical trial with medicines and medical devices. The bill authorises a number of practitioners to undertake controlled activities with therapeutic products. For example, health practitioners will be able to prescribe and dispense prescription medicines, and pharmacists will be able to compound medicines for customers. Likewise, natural health practitioners will be able to manufacture natural health products for their clients as part of a consultation. Other individuals seeking to undertake a controlled activity with a therapeutic product will need to apply to the regulator for a licence or a permit. The bill provides for a broad regulation-making power to allow other classes of individuals to engage in controlled activities\u2014for example, surgeons to retrieve a whole organ for immediate transplantation. This provides flexibility to allow the regulatory regime to develop and evolve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EWhile Medsafe has operated as an effective regulator, providing trusted and quality advice, including during the COVID-19 pandemic, the Medicines Act does not provide it with the modern regulatory tools needed to ensure timely and safe access to therapeutic products. The bill will establish a new therapeutic product regulator and give it the tools it needs to implement and oversee an effective, trusted regulatory regime. This will be a significant undertaking and will form a key part of our future health and disability system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe new regulator will be a branded business within the Ministry of Health, with an independent statutory officer appointed to head the unit. Although it will exercise functions independently, the regulator will not work in isolation. It will be an integral part of our wider health and disability system and will contribute to achieving a vision of pae ora\u2014healthy futures\u2014for all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge two matters where I expect submissions and where I will be looking forward to the considered recommendations from the Health Committee. These are direct consumer advertising of prescription medicines and pharmacy ownership. I just point out that the bill does not change current policy settings on either of those issues, but I\u2019m keen to see what submitters say, because I know that these are somewhat controversial areas in some quarters. But I record for the record that I am open to change on both those matters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThis is a historic and comprehensive bill. It is complex and technical. Along with our recent structural reforms in health, the Therapeutic Products Bill will contribute to pae ora, or healthy futures, for Kiwis. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c72b0fab2c324721863cc2e9e103885c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c72b0fab2c324721863cc2e9e103885c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House stands adjourned until 2 p.m. this afternoon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20221213fe0c562d78be4f57855bd56edfaacbbf000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 1.01 p.m. (Wednesday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"