"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022281fa039806f41fd96b0da372aa21f77\u0022\u003EWEDNESDAY, 3 MAY 2023\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022635bb4e6af9042a7b33fc439e786edce\u0022\u003EWEDNESDAY, 3 MAY 2023\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b91baf546ed94d25a4793f3c2e675520\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002226b8c9b6739b451d9aa5e9d6fdf37819\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022597180e3291a4030900db127a1f77356\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022597180e3291a4030900db127a1f77356\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: E te Atua kaha rawa, ka tuku whakamoemiti atu m\u0101tou, m\u014D ng\u0101 karakia kua waihotia mai ki runga i a m\u0101tou. Ka waiho i \u014D m\u0101tou p\u0101nga whaiaro katoa ki te taha. Ka mihi m\u0101tou ki te K\u012Bngi, me te inoi atu m\u014D te \u0101rahitanga i roto i \u014D m\u0101tou whakaaroarohanga, kia m\u014Dhio ai, kia whakaiti ai t\u0101 m\u0101tou whakahaere i ng\u0101 take o te Whare nei, m\u014D te oranga, te maung\u0101rongo, me te aroha o Aotearoa. \u0100mene.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E[Almighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the King, and pray for guidance in our deliberations, that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom and humility, for the welfare, peace and compassion of New Zealand. Amen.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223bef68de4f9f4b28b4794e526c02b1aa\u0022\u003EVisitors\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221c62c92072404f08aa91e681626f767e\u0022\u003EJapan\u2014National Diet\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00224344741599a041d1afe2e3a806a6e5f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224344741599a041d1afe2e3a806a6e5f6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sure that members would wish to welcome Mr Asao Keiichiro and Mr Ito Shintaro from the National Diet of Japan, who are present in the gallery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002215c790aebab24bfea516650627fad9a6\u0022\u003EParliamentary Membership\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226c33eebc1f6545089e0dd0322cfcfdb9\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour Party\u2014Hon Meka Whaitiri\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7a63a2b0ee54e79aeaaca25904de07b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7a63a2b0ee54e79aeaaca25904de07b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, I wish to inform you that under Standing Order 35(5) the Hon Meka Whaitiri is from today regarded as an independent member for parliamentary purposes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee9dd7a3828f4344bfae177a9bbc9f12\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee9dd7a3828f4344bfae177a9bbc9f12\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Thank you, Mr Speaker, for that advice. I raise matters with you that I think have some very important constitutional merit. This morning, at the Waipatu Marae in Hastings, the member for Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti, addressing a hui, made the following comment: \u201CThis morning, I have officially notified the Speaker that I have resigned from the New Zealand Labour Party and have joined Te Paati M\u0101ori, effective immediately.\u201D Now, as you know, under sections 55A and 55B of the Electoral Act, a member who ceases to be a parliamentary member of the political party for which the member was elected, where they cease to be a member, vacates that seat, effectively. Now, Ms Whaitiri has informed the public that she wrote to you, and, on the face of it, that would meet the terms of section 55B. If that were not the case, I wonder if you could inform the House whether a written notice wasn\u2019t received, and if it was received, what about sections 55A, 55B, and 55C were not met that meant that that vacation wasn\u2019t triggered? Thirdly, without wanting to cast any aspersions, I think this is an important constitutional matter, the like of which has not been tested since section 55 was amended in 2018. I wonder if you would consider tabling the correspondence that you received from Ms Whaitiri. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ddbf25dec19943999b6fb46b4c43fac0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ddbf25dec19943999b6fb46b4c43fac0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members will be well aware that any member can say anything they like outside of this Chamber. When it comes to, as the member has pointed out, sections 55A to 55E, then there\u2019s some very specific events that need to happen for me to declare a seat vacant. I can confirm to the House that those events have not happened, and I have therefore not done so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u00225d511afee5b143b5b3a965e383122a74\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d511afee5b143b5b3a965e383122a74\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Speaking to that point, Mr Speaker. I accept that, and I\u2019m certainly not wanting to challenge that. But I do think it is important, given that the intent of section 55A in substance was that when a member resigns from a parliamentary party and indicates to you, as she has, that she is now joining another political party in this House, that it behoves those parties to that correspondence to inform this Chamber how section 55A(2) is not invoked. I tread carefully for two reasons: one is that your decisions won\u2019t be challenged in that regard, but, secondly, this is a really, really important matter, and I\u2019m not sure that we have yet had the full disclosure of what\u2019s actually transpired here. I accept the point that you make, that what Meka Whaitiri says outside this House does not count necessarily, but you yourself have acknowledged that that correspondence was received, but seemed to indicate that it was not in the form or of the substance that was described by Ms Whaitiri after she sent it to you. And I do think we need to traverse this\u2014perhaps in more detail. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed95dcbfac494ad4a6b9bfa9d38801fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed95dcbfac494ad4a6b9bfa9d38801fe\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Speaking to the point of order. Thank you, Mr Speaker. The only point I wanted to add to from what the member just did is to make sure that we fully understand section 55A of the Electoral Act. While 55A(2), which the member alluded to, does state that the seat of the member becomes vacant under the circumstances he described, it is important to read that in the context of 53A(3), which says, \u201CFor the purposes of subsection (2), a member of Parliament ceases to be a parliamentary member of the political party for which the member of Parliament was elected only if\u2014\u201D, and then goes through. So just the impression could have been gained, from what Mr Woodhouse just said, that subsection (2) stands alone\u2014it doesn\u2019t. Subsection (3) is the determining factor of subsection (2).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u002268db52aae9bc49eea9592af446a055a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268db52aae9bc49eea9592af446a055a9\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Speaking to that point. I accept that, and I think that was implied in what I had said, because section 55A(3)(a), basically, says that that only gets triggered if the member of Parliament delivers to the Speaker a written notice that complies with section 55B. What\u2019s not clear to me\u2014or the House, I would expect\u2014is whether or not that did not happen, or whether it didn\u2019t happen in a form commensurate with the requirements of section 55B.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EI would also add this: I don\u2019t believe it was the Electoral Act\u2019s intention that the form of communication prevented the effect of the Act from being followed. So, essentially, what we may have is a situation where, because of paperwork, a person that has, in fact, resigned from a parliamentary political party and has joined another political party is nevertheless still able to maintain the seat, despite section 55A. Now, I\u2019m not quite sure whether this is the right forum to have this litigated, but I do believe that the Chamber and the public have a right to understand exactly how the Electoral Act has been interpreted in this situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002265f009d61ebc4cad815fc3af805d3f71\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265f009d61ebc4cad815fc3af805d3f71\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think it would be a dangerous situation for the Speaker of the House to start interpreting things that clearly have not been officially submitted to me. Now, as I began my ruling, members can say whatever they like outside of this House, but unless they inform me in the correct way by sending me a signed letter that that is the case, I can\u2019t act on it, and I\u2019m not prepared to do that until I get a letter signed by the member concerned that what she has said outside is her intention to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a9113d28e2c4ffbb2321659e2e3a46a\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Point or order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264a82d6699fa4a96b5b23473f5a7ab8a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is this a new one? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u002286ef978fb485446093239797ced05abd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286ef978fb485446093239797ced05abd\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah, it\u2019s a very important point, sir, because section 53B puts out three requirements. One is that it has to be signed by the member of Parliament, and you\u2019ve just stressed the word \u201Csignature\u201D or \u201Csigned\u201D a couple of times, which may be a giveaway. So could I ask you: is the issue that it was received electronically without an actual physical signature\u2014which I think would be debatable, because it\u2019s a longstanding rule now that electronic signatures are available and emails can be, essentially, received electronically?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe second point is that it has to be addressed to the Speaker. That seems like a matter of form. Is that the issue?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThen the third issue, sir, which I do think the House needs some ventilation on, is the issue of resignation from a parliamentary membership of a political party. Is it the case, sir, that something turns on the word \u201Cparliamentary\u201D? Members with long memories will remember the incident in 2002, when the Hon Jim Anderton resigned from the leadership of The Alliance Party but remained a parliamentary member of The Alliance Party for various parliamentary reasons. Are you, sir, drawing a distinction between Ms Whaitiri\u2019s membership of the Labour Party, in the incorporated society sense of membership, and membership of the Labour Party for political purposes, in a parliamentary sense? I know it sounds technical, but this is an important matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022d488add32833400eb29b732e2fb3b4d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d488add32833400eb29b732e2fb3b4d1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: To the first part, I can confirm to the House that I have not received any letter of resignation, signed or unsigned, OK? So that\u2019s the first part. What I have received\u2014[Interruption] This is important, OK? So interrupting while I\u2019m making a ruling\u2014you might find it funny, but this is a serious issue. What I have been advised by an\u2014before I say this, actually, I believe I follow the law to the letter, and so when I tell this House that I do not have a letter, I actually mean it: I don\u2019t. What I have got is an indication from the Hon Meka Whaitiri that for parliamentary purposes, she has withdrawn her vote with the Labour Party, which, under Standing Order 144 and Standing Order 145, any member can do that, and therefore she is no longer voting with the Labour Party, and she can, as any member can, give her proxy vote to whomever she likes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u00221100b7c6535c4d05b194a8f077b7ef05\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221100b7c6535c4d05b194a8f077b7ef05\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Last question, Mr Speaker, if you\u2019ll indulge me\u2014well, it\u2019s two. Was that communication in writing, and, secondly, was a letter\u2014paper or electronic\u2014sent to your office that was subsequently withdrawn?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5dafbfc5fd4429b9cb8377af8d8e059\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5dafbfc5fd4429b9cb8377af8d8e059\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have received the letter\u2014the email that I spoke about\u2014asking for her vote to be withdrawn. That was received by email.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022a679b31bc98e448da3b0095c77d57524\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a679b31bc98e448da3b0095c77d57524\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Can you, please, just clarify: do you regard Meka Whaitiri as being a member of the parliamentary Labour Party or not? Now, I apologise if you feel you\u2019ve addressed that, but I think it would be helpful for everyone to understand what your position is on that question. And, if the answer is no, then I don\u2019t really see how a vacancy cannot be created. If you could just answer that question, it would be very helpful to know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022d1bd51bda6484fddb87440edcdd04326\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d1bd51bda6484fddb87440edcdd04326\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s really not for me to determine who is in which party. For whatever reason she has made that decision to write to me to withdraw her proxy is entirely up to her. That does not mean to say that I can interpret that she has left the Labour Party, but this is for parliamentary purposes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00220b2075228a9841ddbc53efcc361821f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b2075228a9841ddbc53efcc361821f1\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Quite a lot flows from this, Mr Speaker. In the interpretation of the allocation of supplementary questions and oral questions, as part of the rota, which is done proportionally, will the Hon Meka Whaitiri be regarded as a M\u0101ori Party MP for the purposes of oral and supplementary questions, and the general debate determination?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002239e6f70653ef4f4d931103b907fbeee8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239e6f70653ef4f4d931103b907fbeee8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: She\u2019ll be regarded as an Independent member for those purposes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u00222302fc4727944772aa884e33c75d6f54\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222302fc4727944772aa884e33c75d6f54\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Speaking to that, if she\u2019s regarded as an Independent member, that can only come as an effect of her communications with you. And, if she\u2019s given you a communication that can have that effect, how can it possibly not also create a vacancy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002225a3c412d2764389978cd5361733637a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225a3c412d2764389978cd5361733637a\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Speaking to the point of order. I\u2019d just refer that member to what you did, which is Standing Orders 144 and 145. Standing Orders there are with respect to votes that are held in this House. Communications about that are not the same as communications about the Electoral Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u002210cf2b10fc4145728834976048827a82\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210cf2b10fc4145728834976048827a82\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Perhaps, actually, I should just preface my question with saying that these questions might go away if the communication was released. But my question is: given your answer\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb62a601e55041fd89b02512813f80d3\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re questioning the Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022854369f93bdd4ce98668bccf63cec9f0\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE\u003C/span\u003E: No, and I have prefaced every single comment about that with a clarification that that\u2019s absolutely not what I\u2019m doing. But, Mr Speaker, you have just said that Meka Whaitiri wishes to be recognised for parliamentary purposes as an Independent member of Parliament. And that can only happen if she has resigned from the parliamentary Labour Party, and therefore it is, I think, worth considering, whether it\u2019s here or somewhere else, whether section 55B(c)(ii) has been met and, if that was inside a communication to you and signed by the member, I think there is still an open question about whether section 55A(2) has also been triggered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8aa415517c4427e94d2801a182f895e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8aa415517c4427e94d2801a182f895e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The law as currently drafted allows no judgment at all to be exercised by the Speaker. A vacancy can only be declared if notice is given in a specific and correct way to the Speaker. That, as I have said now three times, has not happened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022160c7fc95d8243a89580ff49491c7b47\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcf85975ce9d4076a466ee0cf2f9520b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A new point of order? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022323962b120774f659d5fc3acfb864b2e\u0022\u003EHon Gerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022139822b8cc9d441b9d1d47a01f291158\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Gerry Brownlee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002220e6847aa4864a5eb1a33458ccd53bbf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220e6847aa4864a5eb1a33458ccd53bbf\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, doesn\u2019t that raise the question of why you were able to make the judgment that the member is now an Independent? The two Standing Orders that were quoted by Mr Robertson relate to persons who have given their proxy or who are part of a caucus. Once you withdraw from a caucus\u2014then if you are not able to make a judgment, why are you able to stand in the House today and declare that Ms Whaitiri will be an Independent member? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022943ad1e414734de7b56d59bd046867e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022943ad1e414734de7b56d59bd046867e6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for his question. It\u2019s entirely up to the member themselves. As I\u2019ve said already, I\u2019m not making a judgment on which party that the member is part of\u2014that\u2019s not my role. As I said in previous rulings, the Act is very clear, and until I have got a letter stating that the member has resigned under that section, then she is still a member of Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00222f30a2171a8e4e0b83e3861e10976d4e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f30a2171a8e4e0b83e3861e10976d4e\u0022\u003EHon GERRY BROWNLEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Speaking to the point of order, Mr Speaker. Thank you for that clarification, sir. Then why are you able to make a determination that the allocation of parliamentary time will be removed from the Labour Party and given to the Independent member, when that would seem to contravene all of the intentions of the two Standing Orders raised by Mr Robertson? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00226c8c570bbe90406882dab92299e5cfbc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c8c570bbe90406882dab92299e5cfbc\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Regardless of the way that the Hon Meka Whaitiri has advised both the public, the Labour Party, or anyone else about anything that she\u2019s doing, she has not notified me. So she can, as a member of this House, tell me that her proxy vote is not with the Labour Party now, as I\u2019ve said before, and, for parliamentary purposes, that she is regarded as an Independent member of Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022efa734c6246149d385c23d6e6868746d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022efa734c6246149d385c23d6e6868746d\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. Well, this is difficult, because if she is regarded by you as an Independent member, which you have said that she is, she has fulfilled and she has told\u2014like, you can\u2019t regard her as an Independent member unless she has told you something. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d50ea2eef9d242fcbdb524e5981be6f2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Only for parliamentary purposes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b3ef21a9c034ac39ad219b2fc3ea3fe\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if she is regarded as an Independent member of Parliament and you\u2019ve indicated that for the purposes of the allocation of supplementaries, etc., she will be regarded as an Independent member of Parliament, in a parliamentary sense she has fulfilled section 55B. She has notified you\u2014by definition, she must have notified you, because you\u2019ve just indicated you\u2019re regarding her as that. She has fulfilled section 55B, which therefore triggers the rest of the Act, and the seat is vacated. I\u2019m struggling to see how you can regard her as an Independent member if for voting purposes and for proportionality purposes she is not regarded as a member of the Labour Party any more, she can be an Independent member of Parliament in this House, and that not trigger the Electoral Act. Parliament explicitly changed the law back in 2018 to make it so that in those circumstances, those members of Parliament who do that, who distort the proportionality of Parliament by leaving the political party with which they were elected\u2014and leaving aside the merits of whether or not that was a good idea to do it or not, the law is the law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022eccb7d4e788b4f4fbe74d9827b513ef2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eccb7d4e788b4f4fbe74d9827b513ef2\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Speaking to the point of order, Mr Speaker. Would this whole matter not be so much simpler if you simply retracted your statement that she is an Independent member and instead said that she remains a member of the parliamentary Labour Party who has decided to have her proxy vote exercised independent of that party? Because it seems that otherwise we have a total contradiction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022093a1dfe08624caf9e01fe933eb1b31b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022093a1dfe08624caf9e01fe933eb1b31b\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Speaking to that point of order. Just on that very specific point, it is a very longstanding convention that it is members of this House that decide their vote, and members of this House, as is covered by the Standing Orders we\u2019ve been discussing before, who can indicate, at any given moment, who is casting their vote. So the way round that the member put it would not be consistent with where we are. It is up to a member of Parliament to indicate that. I\u2019m not going into the other bit, but on that piece, it would be that way round, not the other way round.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u002239d6171ec8574721a30417ce433b5165\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239d6171ec8574721a30417ce433b5165\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Co-Leader\u2014Green): \u003C/span\u003ESpeaking to the point of order, Mr Speaker. Thank you. I mean, the confusion here, I think, is that when you look at the purpose of the bill, it says that it provides for a member to vacate their seat in Parliament if they choose to give notice to the Speaker of their ceasing parliamentary membership of the party for which they were elected. So is it our understanding that she has not ceased to be a member of the parliamentary Labour Party but that she has withdrawn her vote from the parliamentary Labour Party? Is that what we\u2019re being told?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1ca71e30d6a4bcea68ee7a5d95146ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1ca71e30d6a4bcea68ee7a5d95146ca\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah; there are several different issues going on, and a lot of them are repeating or asking the same thing that I\u2019ve already answered. For parliamentary purposes, the Hon Meka Whaitiri being an Independent MP is a determination under the Standing Orders. She has not told me that she is an Independent MP, but for the purposes of Parliament, I have notified the House that she has asked me and informed me that she has withdrawn her proxy from the Labour Party and she wishes to sit somewhere else. That\u2019s it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002240d7ace506594662b71104ce2b9d1a4f\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d27b89ed35cb480f9ea037047e8ec0d8\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002223355631bfbc4d029776b1165a9d1005\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223355631bfbc4d029776b1165a9d1005\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No petitions have been delivered to the Clerk for presentation. No papers have been delivered to the Clerk for presentation. No select committee reports have been delivered to the Clerk for presentation. No bills have been introduced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b04d8a5bfeb54bfcb770088a11be83d9\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022df135f4d53a847b49b178c8208bc4945\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228bec060167e2475aa3f595d0e664ea91\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3e8e8211a8e437ebcfe80fee96653c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3e8e8211a8e437ebcfe80fee96653c5\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports has he seen on the New Zealand economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00220980239b779744dab83908712b63547c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220980239b779744dab83908712b63547c\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E The strength of the jobs market is continuing to support the New Zealand economy. Today, Statistics New Zealand reported that the unemployment rate has remained at a near-record low of 3.4 percent in the March quarter. The average hourly wage rose 7.6 percent, to $38.93, outpacing the current rate of inflation. We know that many Kiwi families are doing it tough in the face of cost of living pressures, but they do so while in paid work and with wages growing faster than inflation, easing some of the pressure that they are under.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f602f3ed8f344cf4b4cd2d41a53453c0\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: What did the report say about employment growth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228eba1761e94416486e4f4130d86343a\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: An extra 22,000 people were employed in the quarter, and 69,000 in the year. There are more women than ever in jobs. There is now a record high of 2.886 million people in work. Since 2017, 281,000 jobs have been added to the New Zealand economy. Our participation rate has risen to 72 percent, and the employment rate to 69.5 percent\u2014record highs for both since the series began. Mr Luxon loves talking the economy down; we\u2019re proud of New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f07d12b4392487780625a7521b1288e\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: What reactions has he seen to the labour market report?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208b7c451255442d6abb64f19c19cbfe8\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: ASB\u2019s economists said firms were hiring with \u201Csizable gains in employment, record labour force participation, and [with] the unemployment rate and other \u2026 measures of the labour market hovering around record lows.\u201D Kiwibank\u2019s economists said the report showed strong job gains and chunky pay rises. They noted that the solid gains in employment are a result of increased labour supply, including from migration, which is helping to fill vacancies. Westpac\u2019s economists said that what workers are receiving in hand is keeping up with the rising costs of living. The constant chipping of the Leader of the Opposition means that he doesn\u2019t like good news; I understand that, but it\u2019s good for New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f642c510747420aa54f9c70d07d5120\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister of Finance think it\u2019s appropriate to be crowing about the state of the economy on a day when the Reserve Bank has warned that more New Zealanders will be entering mortgage distress and may see their house prices spiralling downward further, and on a day when research has been released showing that hundreds of thousands more New Zealanders are waking up each day worried about their financial circumstances, with credit data showing more and more are going into debt arrears; is this a good economy under Labour?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb20f2b862d34fb1b10de53c1bc9cc0c\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: What today is is a day to celebrate the hard work of businesses and workers right across New Zealand that means that we have an unemployment rate that sits below Australia\u2019s, we have people in work, and our economy is 6 percent larger than it was before COVID. Every day in the House and outside of the House, we acknowledge that New Zealanders are doing it tough through a cost of living crisis. That\u2019s why we\u2019ve supported them to make sure that they get through that; measures that every time we put up to support New Zealanders, the National Party oppose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221626e45c21784dcd957791b5e9fd580a\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: How does New Zealand\u2019s labour market compare internationally?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8462d36d57e464caae76d930f643d94\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: On comparable measures, New Zealand\u2019s 3.4 percent unemployment rate stands favourably against 3.6 percent in Australia, 3.5 percent in the United States, 3.8 percent in the United Kingdom, and 5 percent in Canada. The OECD average is 4.8 percent. In terms of employment rates, we are third in the OECD. The Opposition might not like it, but the New Zealand economy and the hard work of businesses and workers\u2014[Interruption] I\u2019m still talking\u2014means that New Zealanders can be proud of the economy. I know the member\u2019s anxious to talk down the economy and stand up and ask a question about that. I\u2019m proud of New Zealanders; I don\u2019t think the Opposition is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d956b8fd77364bb89ae8c3d87364ec21\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: In terms of international comparisons, has the Minister of Finance seen the Bloomberg recession index, which shows recession probabilities worldwide, with New Zealand in second place for the most probable likelihood of a recession, at 70 percent, which compares with other countries such as Australia, with only 40 percent such likelihood?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b24b729159e4a92ace09498ea6298c8\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve seen many different indicators, almost all of which show that, relatively speaking, New Zealand has got through COVID in a better shape than most other countries. I know the members on the other side of the House think it\u2019s great to talk down the New Zealand economy. I\u2019m not going to do that, because I\u2019m proud of the efforts New Zealanders have made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002223ae1641ecab435b8c49c5de08480ed6\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4dafc27c2d4472090c9f7143aa184db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4dafc27c2d4472090c9f7143aa184db\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER LUXON (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by all of her Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00224f3605d0c69442f3a35e3a080e5bcd60\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f3605d0c69442f3a35e3a080e5bcd60\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Acting Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, in particular the significant financial support announced today to assist communities in the Hawke\u2019s Bay and Tai R\u0101whiti regions with the post-cyclone clean-up of sediment and debris. This Government is wholeheartedly committed to helping our communities, including our growers, farmers, whenua M\u0101ori, and others to recover from the cyclone. This is just another step, but we\u2019re going to keep working hard alongside these communities to recover and rebuild.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222770490add644ced84c1a53323a3b473\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Prime Minister lost control of the Government when one of his Ministers waits until he\u2019s airborne to announce that she\u2019s resigning and defecting to another party?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2b15eef6c9b469a8fd3ffc32ee69edf\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: That is a party matter. The person resigned from the party; clearly, as a result of that, the person is no longer able to be a Minister. But we\u2019re certainly still in control and certainly still excited to be Government with our strong 62 MPs in the House, and we look forward to continuing to serve New Zealanders, focused on what matters to New Zealand at this point in time. New Zealanders can be assured that we will continue working hard for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c93b5bf9d59e475aa45d1230d5674525\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: How can she have confidence the cyclone recovery is being well managed when the Minister responsible has apparently spent more time plotting a defection from the Labour Party than on the recovery?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229dbd159fc885490db7d570d7a02b9170\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m the Minister responsible, and that ain\u2019t the truth!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ae1961524aa497fa5a98b9fd5903687\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221172a12c64004f538fc4ad1db3ec66f7\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m really proud of the commitment that we have made to the regions that have been affected by weather. There are a number of announcements and investments we\u2019ve made to respond. We certainly recognise that this is a journey that we\u2019re on and that there is more to do. Our commitment is to working with the wh\u0101nau and the communities in those affected areas to support them through the recovery and rebuild.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f409904a00544944a18024c6869700cd\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister considered taking a roll at the start of Cabinet meetings in order to check that no more Ministers have been lost?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282d879fdbed548bfa6023544b67d5361\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Do you want to respond to that? You don\u2019t have to if you don\u2019t want to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223449ced268214f98a44411c3f220d6c0\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdbaf9a754654c05b9ba6b7e6e2195c9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242487fb626114c858144181a0128fbe0\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: How can the people of Hawke\u2019s Bay and Gisborne have confidence that the next Minister of cyclone recovery for that region will last longer than the previous two?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1c22f3379ec476695fe00f836e47b1e\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: I do want to mention that we have an amazing local MP who\u2019s not a Minister there, in Anna Lorck, and she\u2019s been working hard on the ground. It\u2019s important to acknowledge that. The person that has been put into the role as acting Minister for the cyclone recovery in Hawke\u2019s Bay is one of our most experienced with regards to this type of work. We trust that Kieran McAnulty, in his acting role, will serve that community and that region well, and we absolutely make a commitment to getting behind him with that work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4150dda0bc94462a977d4b0f43d5e95\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with Chris Hipkins, who said introducing a capital gains tax would be \u201Cfairer\u201D, and, if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fab60d56d1fe4e93842b0a83bfb4e840\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: I also agree with Chris Hipkins that that won\u2019t be introduced this term and that we don\u2019t currently have a tax policy. All political parties will have their tax policy before the next election, but it\u2019s certainly not on the table for us now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b9b33996188451ebfd5749c6b88ee79\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Does she think a capital gains tax would be fairer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b99de8bfc06647098fd83504ce3675bb\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not a matter that is on the table for discussion, and so my personal views on such matters are not a consideration for this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285d828e8e6054f7eb3255b5328e86c23\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Why won\u2019t the Government just come clean on its plans to slap Kiwis with a capital gains tax when they\u2019ve made it crystal clear that\u2019s exactly what they\u2019re working on?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d03a98c19402462ebe52faf697172ae8\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: The Opposition is continuing to act like we have some kind of secret tax plan. We\u2019ve been very clear that we don\u2019t. If it was a secret, it would be a huge one, because the Prime Minister, myself, and every other person on this front bench does not know what that Opposition Leader is talking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205204dfdce3d491896e5afe779d86543\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: How can Kiwis have confidence to invest for the future when she won\u2019t be clear whether those investments will be subject to a capital gains tax?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220de01a87b9ed4aefa0394ab5ad7593d9\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve been really clear that we\u2019re committed to ensuring that our educational services, our health services, our social services are supported by us as a Government to provide that necessary support to all New Zealanders, unlike the other side of the House, who seem to be intending on cutting taxes and therefore services to New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d37711808464d76927f1c9d61ea7332\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: How can the hundreds of thousands of small-business owners up and down this country have confidence to invest and grow their businesses if they have no idea how they\u2019ll be taxed after 14 October?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b216514a00c446294a25cf773db8bfa\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much for confirming we will be in Government after October. We absolutely have shown our support to small businesses around this country in so many different ways, including the $18 billion that we invested into wage subsidy that held up so many businesses through what could\u2019ve been a terrible, terrible time for them and ensured that we saved thousands and thousands of jobs for New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022000dccd2185648d0a76b6ce71672ea63\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00225ea34c2093ef4dc19e488a772dc77b78\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ea34c2093ef4dc19e488a772dc77b78\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Acting Prime Minister: Does she stand by all her Government\u2019s policies and statements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022b09c8e57e23c46d6b934f823162fcfde\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b09c8e57e23c46d6b934f823162fcfde\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Acting Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, including the significant efforts of the Ministry of Social Development and a range of other Government agencies that have contributed to the labour market results released today. In particular, I want to highlight the fact that more young people are engaged in employment, education, and training with a fall in the NEET rate from 11.1 percent to 10.3 percent. This reflects our focus on getting young people ready for work through such programmes as Apprenticeship Boost, Mana in Mahi, and He Poutama Rangatahi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272a7b82373644259890ac27d4f43b4e6\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister accept that many overstayers have lived in New Zealand for years and have deep roots in their communities yet are at risk of exploitation and living in fear of being raided at their homes without the rights afforded to residents?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ef3e04d69894e3e8fe0dda38197c1ee\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: I do accept that that happens sometimes. The recent event that occurred in South Auckland was unacceptable. Our Minister of Immigration has acted. We will all be watching this space because we do not accept that this should continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e107be515f44c9bb19dcecb5c62145a\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Is she concerned there\u2019s an estimated 1,000 people with an overstayer status who are under the age of 18, including some born in New Zealand, living in households at risk of exploitation and isolated from public services?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d35ef53bb524a4e944e0cac8854739c\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: Of course that is a concern. There is some thinking going on and some work being undertaken by the Minister of Immigration and we need to watch that space and see what comes of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9d58ff1573948b08131cad9c031e330\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with Princess Mele Siu\u2018ilikutapu Kalaniuvalu Fotofili from Tonga who, at the Dawn Raids apology, urged the Government to consider an amnesty for overstayers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e44a65335a9b470f95cf8fcce7b6d1aa\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: We took that away. We took her comments seriously. As we have said before, and the Minister has said, regularisation as an idea or a potential policy down the track is not off the table. However, the Minister has made it clear that there is still work going on with respect to looking at that and he is still receiving advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ead565df4d140aa81d834393bf4db70\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: So does she agree with her own Labour colleagues who recommended that the Government consider a regularisation initiative for undocumented migrants as part of a report on a research piece on Tuvaluan overstayers, and, if so, will she support an amnesty for overstayers, given recent revelations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291772a7a0df74f7b87ac1df46ebfbcba\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: I supported that research project and I support that work. And I certainly support the work that the Minister of Immigration is doing to explore this option. It\u2019s just not completed. But as I said, it\u2019s certainly not off the table. There is still work under way and he is still receiving advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220582402fc66542d792ba25fd1c16e5c6\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: Does she think it\u2019s OK that overstayers who have worked to build public housing to help fix the housing crisis were raided and subsequently deported; and, if not, would it not be better for these workers to be able to work legally in Aotearoa with decent wages and protections?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224887be038e0e4206b1be79098d8c67c1\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: I support the work that is under way by the Minister of Immigration with respect to looking at the possibility of regularisation. And the reasons I support that, I guess, were inferred in some ways in the member\u2019s question. There are lots of reasons why we should explore this as a possibility, but the work is not complete.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022830923cfc10d4ba7b84362f4f5e2e33b\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8af72465e484ea7ba188789afb3d16b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8af72465e484ea7ba188789afb3d16b\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he agree with the Prime Minister that \u201CThere will need to be adjustments to tax income thresholds\u201D, and will he prioritise those adjustments as part of the Government\u2019s 2023 Budget?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022e87aa949eee54e5fb778c0608ad6f720\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e87aa949eee54e5fb778c0608ad6f720\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E To answer both parts of the question, I agree with the Prime Minister\u2019s full quote, which was: \u201Cthere will need to be adjustments to [income tax] thresholds as the overall incomes of New Zealanders rise. I am not outlining any specific plan about that today, but I do acknowledge from time to time there does need to be adjustment \u2026 But now is not the right time to do that when we have a high inflationary environment because we know that tax changes like that, that put more money back into the economy, can also lead to any additional value that people \u2026 get through tax cuts being quickly eroded by inflation.\u201D I note that OECD analysis indicates that the tax wedge for the average single worker in New Zealand\u2014the measure of tax on labour incomes\u2014is the 36th lowest of 38 OECD countries. The Government is focused on supporting New Zealanders to increase their take-home pay through wage increases backed by a strong economy and more jobs, and this has been reaffirmed today by the Statistics New Zealand report reporting wages have risen 7.6 percent over the past year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c26901c220449a4b7bb51b4b30af22f\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think it\u2019s fair that under his Government, New Zealanders struggling through a cost of living crisis are being forced to pay higher average effective tax rates due to inflation-driven bracket creep?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268e043775b45421ba9451c66d90df8f4\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: As noted in the primary answer, the Prime Minister\u2014and, indeed, myself, in the past\u2014has indicated that there is, from time to time, justification and reason for adjusting tax rates. That has to be set in the context in which we live and the economy in which we live. We live in a situation now where we do have high inflation. We don\u2019t want to take steps that will unnecessarily exacerbate that inflation and we need to balance any decisions we make about that with what public services we can afford to provide. Tax cuts are not free; they have to be paid for, and the member will eventually have to explain how she\u2019s going to pay for them or which public services she will cut to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c913243e1f514ed58637b52abffdd8e0\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Why can he find more than $80 million to subsidise Teslas, hundreds of millions of dollars to fund more reports from highly paid consultants, and hundreds of millions of dollars to fund policy advisers, communications advisers, and the like, but he can\u2019t find money to let New Zealanders keep more of what they earn?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278302eb1c4aa4aff891a267b0a42677d\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Two answers to that question. Firstly, a further acknowledgment from the National Party that they will do nothing to help New Zealand meet its emissions reduction goals. They\u2019re happy to sign up to agreements, but they will do nothing to do that. The second answer is that the member will be well aware that when tax cuts are put in place, they\u2019re there for ever; they\u2019re costed out for ever. It\u2019s billions and billions of dollars, Ms Willis\u2014billions of dollars that either the member has to find somewhere or cut services to provide. That is the debate. That\u2019s the debate, Ms Willis: what services are you going to cut?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022295799d0c29741e0ad7dc4089fe6c78f\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Why, under Labour, is it never the time to give Kiwis tax relief, but it is always the time for the finance Minister to appropriate more of their money?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a89108fa4924db2a6cb4f41de914cb2\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: What the member is offering New Zealanders on low incomes is two bucks a week. That\u2019s what the member is offering New Zealanders on low incomes. What we\u2019ve done consistently over recent years is prioritise support for low and middle income New Zealanders so that they are hundreds of dollars a week better off than they would have been otherwise. The member might think it\u2019s fair, somehow, for someone on a low or middle income to get two bucks a week while someone on a high income like her gets a thousand dollars a year; I don\u2019t think that\u2019s fair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e196a0948c824f5d8fed32ffe4c9f504\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware of any confusing or misleading tax policy that said one thing prior to an election and delivered something completely different after?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287dcad37399c4362a54c57fd0919b666\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I certainly\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022036eff8503c144dcb5e4651997498fff\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I\u2019m just going to warn the Minister to be very careful. Patsy questions should not be used to attack Opposition parties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022000a083543f54fe6bcb1c4bf5386472f\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I can certainly say that that\u2019s not something I would do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022edb0700e90424b4b8ddbea86a5e1966c\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Children\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9b403d7d96c49149fca9af87abb5a8a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9b403d7d96c49149fca9af87abb5a8a\u0022\u003EDr LIZ CRAIG (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Children: What recent progress has he seen from the Enabling Communities work in Oranga Tamariki?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4df0988816b474399d5f852add1572a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4df0988816b474399d5f852add1572a\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS (Minister for Children): L\u003C/span\u003East week I was pleased to launch a new community- and iwi-led plan at Waipatu Marae in Hawke\u2019s Bay to transform the way tamariki and wh\u0101nau in Te Matau-a-M\u0101ui are supported. Te Ara M\u0101tua was formed in partnership between Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu, Oranga Tamariki, and local health and social wellbeing partners. The new plan will see iwi and local organisations more involved in decision making from the outset, when wh\u0101nau require intervention and support. It was so well received. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273322de4c65d4796a20fd51be93d2822\u0022\u003EDr Liz Craig\u003C/span\u003E: What does this plan mean for tamariki and wh\u0101nau in Hawke\u2019s Bay?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022343343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a5ae0bc47a044699eb49324128e3dd2\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: The plan means tamariki and wh\u0101nau in Hawke\u2019s Bay will be better supported by iwi and community. Oranga Tamariki and its predecessors have been reviewed numerous times, including five times between 2019 and 2021, following the attempted removal of a newborn p\u0113pi\u00A0M\u0101ori in Hawke\u2019s Bay. Following this event, I established the Ministerial Advisory Board, and, with their recommendations, set a new direction for Oranga Tamariki. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022343343\u0022\u003EMy direction was clear: communities and iwi should be supported to make decisions for their tamariki, and Oranga Tamariki should give them the support and resources to do so. Oranga Tamariki is supporting Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu to lead their own response to inform how the State can change the way it works with communities to deliver the best outcomes for tamariki.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e47c2a7b7c4f462a85b8bf39ccd60501\u0022\u003EDr Liz Craig\u003C/span\u003E: Why are plans like this important?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230c8d1b10d33498099d9484093e97fa0\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is committed to seeing through the change needed in Oranga Tamariki. Iwi and communities are essential to this change, and co-designed programmes will deliver the change. We have committed $37 million to enabling communities to prototype M\u0101ori and community-led models across the country. The launch of Te Ara M\u0101tua is a product of this programme, and marks a shift towards enabling and empowering communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223c5917bd-9c2f-4bdf-af2f-b13cd1a2c8bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223751addd5c774f0f957e20d200f1ebbb\u0022\u003EDr Liz Craig\u003C/span\u003E: How does this approach benefit tamariki?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242eef82f2b994293a3fda54b3ed7ab8c\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: The changes are making a difference. For example, since 2018, uplifts are down 73 percent and there are 1,600 fewer children in care. Oranga Tamariki has been focusing on working with communities and iwi to make sure children are at the centre of everything they do. Te Ara M\u0101tua was born from the flax-roots and it centres the voices of wh\u0101nau. The feedback I received from iwi leaders and local wh\u0101nau was positive. They are now ready to get on with their mahi to get better outcomes for their wh\u0101nau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002228600527f516436b98c16b1d44bbd336\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Housing (Homelessness)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00223877781d62b64fc791da8d5c4c0fc5c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223877781d62b64fc791da8d5c4c0fc5c9\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Housing (Homelessness): How much of the $75 million she announced in Budget 2022 for delivering the Government\u2019s vision of an Aotearoa where homelessness is prevented, wherever possible, has been spent to date, if any, and what are the metrics, if any, for how each of the initiatives funded through the investment will be measured?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022 data-id=\u002231b9c53241974fcc9974924c5aaede97\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231b9c53241974fcc9974924c5aaede97\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON (Associate Minister of Housing (Homelessness)):\u003C/span\u003E This is funding that I fought hard for and signals a new way of working. We are delivering long-term solutions to homelessness in authentic partnership with the community, and we must not be drawn into the same old short-term thinking. Let me be clear; we are on track. Budget 2022 funded four initiatives, three of which are brand spanking new: supported housing for rangatahi, kaupapa M\u0101ori solutions to homelessness, and new funding for outreach programmes. All four initiatives are going to plan exactly as we set out in the original Budget documents, and are either already delivering or will have funding allocated by July 2023 as we planned. Almost $17.5 million of the funding has been contracted with providers for rangatahi transitional housing; this includes nearly $1.8 million already spent with providers who are housing youth in new places across Christchurch, Hamilton, and Auckland. Developing measures of success for initiatives is part of developing these new services themselves. New initiatives, which are community-led\u2014thank you\u2014take time to design, and I am committed to getting them right and delivering real change for our people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022143732cd9fde47c4ace2bfc16f433000\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Why has just over 1 percent of the $75 million announced last year been spent, when 24,000 families are on the housing register and nearly 3,500 households live in emergency housing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf1c3decebcf42ea94eea5e408ba0718\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: It is absolutely unacceptable that even one person is experiencing housing insecurity. We are very clear that Aotearoa should be a place where everyone has warm, affordable, secure housing where they can put down roots, and I want to be clear that the Budget 2022 funding is only one aspect of this Government\u2019s response to homelessness. Delivery of the Homelessness Action Plan has been ongoing and crucial. There are a range of drivers which contribute to the housing insecurity, and work is under way across Government to address the range of issues, including housing affordability and supply; poverty; access to and availability of social support services and health services\u2014and we know there is definitely still more work to be done. My role in the Homelessness Action Plan has been absolutely crucial to focus the Government\u2019s efforts on preventing and interrupting homelessness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294b2ceb51944429b95c3781164603a58\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That was a lot of information, but it didn\u2019t actually address the basic part of the question. Mr Bishop, do you want another question, or do you want to ask that one again?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e10d2d4751c475a8eb74891a57cd1dd\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I\u2019ll ask that one again, if that\u2019s all right\u2014it is very simple: why is only just over 1 percent of the money announced in Budget 2022 in relation to homelessness services being spent a year later?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5831d78dd4442d1abae2da935f43a07\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: All of those initiatives are working exactly to plan, and by July 2023\u2014which is what we said they would do\u2014those initiatives will be ready. These are a new way of working; Mr Bishop should move away from the old way of working that simply counted numbers out the door, as opposed to an enduring solution that the communities are authentically helping us to lead, and that absolutely does require the time to get these initiatives right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c3506f25aee423199f6d78109ee168e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That still doesn\u2019t answer the question. I\u2019m going to give the member an additional question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be1a403a9a2246308076d36007823b08\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: When she says that these programmes are working exactly as planned, is she telling the House that it was a design feature of the announcement that no or very little money would have gone out the door a year later and the metrics for success, as to analysing the effectiveness of that money, will only be developed once the money starts being spent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236de4f716e6345e4a3827a2cab8258ec\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: This is four-year funding. It was very clear that working in an authentic relationship with communities was always going to require a different and new way of thinking and approaching this work. New rangatahi-supported housing, kaupapa M\u0101ori responses to homelessness, and outreach in the community with homelessness all require the planning to be done and led by community and they can never scale up this work overnight. Never ever is that going to be an expectation on a four-year funding proposal, and I encourage Mr Bishop to continue with new ways of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfee73c86ea24ea2ab09f83da7c14339\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister has now addressed it, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229144568633b24cf18b6ca60fdc583a67\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Why didn\u2019t the Minister adopt the revolutionary idea of allocating money to pre-existing programmes and groups that are on the ground doing the work, who could actually deliver services to those in need right now in the midst of a housing crisis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022432aeb4109da410eb209ff933006d3c2\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: These initiatives are exactly experienced providers who know their communities better than our agencies do. This is where, traditionally, services have not gotten to the people that need it the most. All of these three new initiatives have exactly been allocated and worked with, with the community providers with that experience. That is exactly what these initiatives are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022486bef218acb4641a46ee363ed781a33\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if these initiatives are ones that already exist and they\u2019re delivered by experienced programme providers, why after a year has only just over a million\u2014[Interruption] I\u2019m still asking the question. Why, after a year, has just over 1 percent of the money been actually delivered into the communities when 465 families live in cars?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228558d789f9d844239048803bb41e5a25\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: Firstly, the member needs to listen to my answers. The providers are all experienced providers. The initiatives are new. The three initiatives are new. The existing services in the rangatahi and transitional housing have nearly all been allocated, because it is the very existing service that the member is referring to. There are a broad range of other ministerial responsibilities that I work closely with that are also responsible for providing that emergency support to people who need it, and that does not fall inside my ministerial delegation but I work with my colleagues to do that. We are also very clear that more work needs to be done and that is the work that we continue to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022152f76295e0a4fd9ae09e3e35fc7d498\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Will any of the four initiatives funded in Budget 2022 target the 200 16- and 17-year-old independent young people currently living in emergency housing motels, and does she have a target for the number of 16- and 17-year-old independent young people who will no longer be in motels as a result of these initiatives?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227410acf16ec44a6f8191ab76c562f725\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: As we have already seen through the Homelessness Action Plan, it is the very work under that plan that has seen, for example, more than 138 rangatahi-focused transitional housing places, an additional 3,000 extra transitional housing places delivered under the Homelessness Action Plan, 1,737 households turned into a house through Housing First, $10 million allocated through the Local Innovation Partnership Fund for brand-new solutions\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc5b9a0d9816490f92b71a36887f0a8f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abbc44420e7641e4af0feccb22b9fc2c\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: Hang on\u2014wait. There\u2019s some more good stuff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e08a14a194a8448a8e32c96b4b62dc99\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I\u2019m sure there is, but I\u2019m on my feet and I\u2019m about to make a ruling. Just simply reading out a long list of expenditure doesn\u2019t actually address the question that\u2019s being asked. The question was very clear around young people and transitional homes. I\u2019m almost afraid to ask the member to say more, but I\u2019ll leave it to Mr Bishop, if he wants to ask that question again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0638b3b4e4d4ac78d00c2b7a4138bf6\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m happy to ask it again because it\u2019s an important point and just\u2014I might get it slightly wrong. But the question was: will any or all of the four initiatives funded in Budget 2022 in relation to homelessness target the 200 16- and 17-year-old independent young people currently living in emergency housing and motels, and, if so, what is the Minister\u2019s target for the number of 16- and 17-year-olds who\u2019ve been moved out of emergency housing motels as a result of these initiatives?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbe7c46e9c92425aae05676aa41a94a8\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, as I was explaining, the examples of exactly where the funding has been going and will continue to go includes for rangatahi like the 138 rangatahi-focused\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022242a8b3366c44b1b8b05d124cbf7ecd0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Given the amount of time that you spent before, I think you\u2019ve addressed it now, so thank you. Are there any more supplementaries? No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aeec59a9b32c4699871f033489d8867e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Transport\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022 data-id=\u00229531158fc73c4c6f9269110ca2c924d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229531158fc73c4c6f9269110ca2c924d3\u0022\u003ETERISA NGOBI (Labour\u2014\u014Ctaki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: What recent announcements has he made about investments in passenger rail?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7553764bfb24b808729ead68d68d191\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7553764bfb24b808729ead68d68d191\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Last week, along with the Minister of Finance, I announced that the Government would co-fund a fleet of 18 new hybrid four-car trains for the lower North Island region, along with the Greater Wellington Regional Council. This investment will strengthen public transport links for those travelling in and out of Wellington from Palmerston North, \u014Ctaki, the K\u0101piti Coast, and the Wairarapa. We will also support growth along these rail corridors that will deliver huge productivity benefits for the regions and the country. We know that the Manawat\u016B and Wairarapa lines will have exceeded capacity by 2030 and that there is untapped demand for getting more people on to these lines. That\u2019s why we\u2019ve invested in building up the rail lines in recent years. That\u2019s why we\u2019re currently refurbishing carriages for the Capital Connection, and that\u2019s why we\u2019re now putting our penny down to transform passenger rail services for the region, and futureproof for growth in the years ahead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224322311a12504920a3320e1017f3ccda\u0022\u003ETerisa Ngobi\u003C/span\u003E: What benefits will the investment in the lower North Island rail programme deliver for rail users?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269d6b911736b410784a80f6272cd9f9e\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the new trains will replace the current fleet from the 1970s and will at least double the peak service capacity along both lines, enabling around 1.5 million additional trips per year. This will provide significant time savings of commuters of up to 15 minutes on both the Manawat\u016B and the Wairarapa lines. The new trains will operate using a combination of electric wires, batteries, and fuel, lowering our carbon emissions by around half a million tonnes, making us less reliable on volatile international energy markets. The investment for the network needed to enable the new trains will also build in much more resilience for both passenger and freight services, and stations will be revitalised to meet modern accessibility and amenity standards to improve the experience for passengers. I thank the member, Terisa Ngobi, for advocating for these services on behalf of the community of \u014Ctaki. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b5c371c18bb44a8b1a0c6bbe8a0ffcc\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: What reactions has he seen to the announcement of the Government\u2019s investment in new trains for the lower North Island region? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209e8f0394dc647328f0c7713ec64c97b\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I have seen a range of very positive reports about the investment. Greater Wellington Regional Council chair Daran Ponter said, \u201CThe new trains will revolutionise life for commuters in the Wairarapa, Hutt Valley, Manawat\u016B, Horowhenua, and K\u0101piti who need access to Wellington, Porirua, and Palmerston North. Horizons Regional Council chairwoman Rachel Keedwell said that we know our communities will be really excited by this prospect. And, finally, Save Our Trains campaigner Paul Callister said, \u201CThis is a huge win and there are considerable benefits. These new trains will connect people, promote economic development, and help reduce our carbon emissions.\u201D I want to thank the councils and campaigners who we\u2019ve worked with constructively in recent years to make this investment a reality for the people of the Wellington region, including the good folks of Palmerston North.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b83c66618884e03b5d5f1ad1328435a\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: What other work is the Government doing to improve passenger rail services?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288981166d3844d8fb77c5e06c10ac828\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: Since 2017, our Government has invested $8.6 billion to reverse a long period of managed decline and build a resilient and reliable network for the people and the freight of New Zealand. This investment has gone into the bread and butter work of replacing tracks, installing new culverts and bridges, and upgrading turnouts, all of which are needed for a safe and effective network. I\u2019m proud of our investment across New Zealand\u2019s great rail network. It\u2019s one of the most carbon-efficient regional development building investments that we can make, and it\u2019s great to see this investment in the Wellington region.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dccac461125f46db975aee85ca7b90d5\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Justice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u00229a0e32c6306440f28a2f648401814573\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a0e32c6306440f28a2f648401814573\u0022\u003ENICOLE McKEE (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: Why was only $3.73 million of the $22 million approved funding for round 5 of the Proceeds of Crime Fund spent in 2022, and when the Ministry of Justice\u2019s website states \u201CRound 6 closed on 14 February 2022. The round is currently paused\u201D, does this accurately reflect the status of the fund?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022 data-id=\u00227cfe2a47ec3d4713af0b1e0797895c8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227cfe2a47ec3d4713af0b1e0797895c8e\u0022\u003EHon KIRITAPU ALLAN (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Yes; that statement is an accurate reflection. Round six is currently paused due to a significant portion of the fund having been allocated to priority projects, including the $6 million allocated in May 2022 to the Retail Crime Prevention Programme to assist small retailers implementing crime prevention measures, including physical barriers such as bollards, fog cannons, and roller doors, some of which my colleague the Minister of Police will update the House on today, I am sure. The $22 million of approved funding from round five of the Proceeds of Crime Fund has been allocated to successful applicants. The $3.73 million figure referred to by the member only represents expenditure from 1 July 2022 to 30 December 2022 by the applicants themselves, and figures are aggregated on a six-month basis, with further figures expected after June this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfe448e230c34d278729d3b561841e29\u0022\u003ENicole McKee\u003C/span\u003E: Why have almost half of the initiatives that had their funding approved in 2022, such as Te Whare Hauora, which provides a safe place for victims of domestic violence, not received a single cent of that funding?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b914a850a4d40daa0b1283cf9b7bd54\u0022\u003EHon KIRITAPU ALLAN\u003C/span\u003E: As I just described to the member in this House, round five has been fully allocated and distributed to those successful applicants. Round six has been paused. I think it is probably useful, just to put it into some context for the House, though\u2014some other large allocations have been made that have stopped our ability to be able to accept new applications to the fund. For example, in round six, a large-scale fraud was committed in an international jurisdiction, with the proceeds being laundered through New Zealand, and a multinational agreement and asset-sharing arrangement was negotiated, with the proceeds then shared proportionately with other jurisdictions. For law enforcement reasons, I can\u2019t go into the details of that fraud today, but I use that as an example of the types of events and initiatives that those funds are being spent on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c13bb26d01ee418399d4ba4f5aef239c\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Has she seen reports that lifetime Mongrel Mob member Harry Tam\u2019s company, which received $2.75 million from the Proceeds of Crime Fund to run a meth rehab programme, has managed to spend more than $100,000 of it hiring one van; and, if so, is this how she thinks the fund should be spent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022324c4616204744e08dd8f4b158c70618\u0022\u003EHon KIRITAPU ALLAN\u003C/span\u003E: I haven\u2019t seen those reports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ed7460d043f4adf8ba9f2b08133dbfe\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise to Nicole McKee. Sorry, I should have given you that supplementary. I mistakenly thought you had already asked two, so my apologies. Nicole McKee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022576aa87423de4e80a6988fd2d3d0f13e\u0022\u003ENicole McKee\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Any bonuses would be gratefully received. Ha, ha! To the Minister, does she think that she\u2019s taking a victim-centric approach when more money has been spent helping the perpetrators of crime-related harm through things like cultural reports than on the victims of crime-related harm?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022783a4536a21a4616beffe7641cd696e8\u0022\u003EHon KIRITAPU ALLAN\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t accept that characterisation. I think that victims have squarely been a core focus for our Government. This is embodied in the announcements that we made just last week\u2014a three-part approach taken to the way that we look at dealing with victims who have been poorly served by multiple Governments over many years. We are looking at legislative reforms that strengthen and enhance the ability of victims to participate in the system. We are looking at trials that we are running, and, of course, we are increasing funding for both Victim Support\u2014we\u2019ve doubled their funding since taking office\u2014and we\u2019ve tripled the amount of funding that\u2019s been available through the Victim Assistance Scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c2fac79251e49daa36caec662615454\u0022\u003ENicole McKee\u003C/span\u003E: Is she aware that there are organisations that have been forced to close down due to the proceeds of crime funding round being closed, with no certainty being given on when it will reopen again; and what does she say to the owners of the retreat who offered residential programmes for people suffering from drug and alcohol addictions, who recently had to announce the closure of their \u014Ct\u0101huhu facility due to the Proceeds of Crime Fund being closed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d362912880c94375b75c8f00a7496bbb\u0022\u003EHon KIRITAPU ALLAN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the first thing I\u2019d say is just to acknowledge the roles that many people have, I guess, worked really hard on across a broad range of schemes in our community to look after those that have suffered, whether it\u2019s from drug or alcohol addiction, but many of the schemes that have been provided in the community by the community. Of course, we can\u2019t fund all of them. We\u2019ve had to make some decisions to really focus in on some of our priorities. They have included the response to retail crime, for example, and there are many other initiatives that the Government often has to invest in. But I do want to acknowledge and thank those that constantly give their energy and their work to support those in our community that need support from people like those you\u2019ve clearly mentioned in \u014Ct\u0101huhu.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ab3a6e73aef042f5b440e7897db2dc3d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Health (M\u0101ori Health)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022 data-id=\u0022493fc179577e48cdb0aeb6c026123b6e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022493fc179577e48cdb0aeb6c026123b6e\u0022\u003EPAUL EAGLE (Labour\u2014Rongotai)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Health (M\u0101ori Health): What recent announcement has he made on health equity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022040f338d7217422cbf3c6b36e690ee3a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022040f338d7217422cbf3c6b36e690ee3a\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Associate Minister of Health (M\u0101ori Health)):\u003C/span\u003E Last Thursday, I announced, alongside the Minister of Health, $44 million of funding for primary healthcare providers to deliver high-quality services focused on benefiting M\u0101ori and Pacific populations. The funding is for two years to support wh\u0101nau with the highest needs in New Zealand. This announcement rises to the challenge this Government accepted to have an equitable health system for all. I\u2019m also pleased to advise the House that the first payment for this funding will be paid by Te Whatu Ora later this month.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f033978ba9884b1fac912d625601f59f\u0022\u003EPaul Eagle\u003C/span\u003E: How will this funding support better access to healthcare?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a89c09c70adc4f6b9f3ad32b23e09573\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: This $44 million fund will enable our primary care providers to stand up comprehensive care teams such as kai\u0101whina, physiotherapists, pharmacists, care coordinators, and, in some of our rural areas, they will need paramedics. Our providers have said to us that they need more of these roles so that they can provide more comprehensive support and access to wh\u0101nau. With winter looming, we are also supporting these providers to access more front-line clinical teams to focus on early intervention, faster treatment, and better support over all. In addition to the funding I just mentioned, we are also providing an extra $30 million of primary care funding over the next two years to general practices based on their enrolled high-needs populations. This will cover shortfall funding in the current formula, which does not factor in ethnicity, socio-economic status, and age. I am proud of this Government for highlighting equity in a desirable health system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223224a22f82c545e7851eab640c6c9732\u0022\u003EPaul Eagle\u003C/span\u003E: What is the significance of this funding?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e688ce624574bf2a655f92f76689860\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: This announcement is significant for our communities and health providers. Better access to local care will go a long way to improving early intervention rates and help patients avoid hospital care, improving the hauora of those who need it the most. As I have travelled across the motu, the feedback I am hearing is overwhelmingly positive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022217f4585-f6ef-408d-9318-8a6b8506920b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e472807b7b28404a986829c83d04fff5\u0022\u003EPaul Eagle\u003C/span\u003E: How does this announcement support M\u0101ori health equity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e491a0789bad478685bc8f9725b43891\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: For M\u0101ori wh\u0101nau, this announcement is a response to the Wai 2575 report, which criticised the capitation funding system in New Zealand for not considering important factors such as ethnicity, socio-economic status, and age when distributing funds to primary healthcare providers. We know that our hauora M\u0101ori providers tend to have a higher proportion of patients with complex health needs and higher rates of chronic illnesses, and as such the existing one-size-fits-all funding formula is neither adequate nor fair. Both funds will see 78 M\u0101ori provider practices receive an equity adjuster of approximately $80 per person enrolled. Seventy-five other practices with more than 50 percent of their enrolled population being M\u0101ori or Pacific will receive a further $40 per person enrolled. For some practices, this may mean being able to continue to operate; for others, it might mean that they can employ more staff and expand their services. And, for others, they may choose to remove co-payments for some of their enrolled populations. There are no silver bullets for these challenges in front of us, but the support for this particular initiative is overwhelmingly positive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224c51d1983a3d4a749e6edb90a4c543b5\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Police\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022 data-id=\u0022127829e1ecbe46478ad69bc4398cb181\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022127829e1ecbe46478ad69bc4398cb181\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour\u2014Upper Harbour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: What recent announcements has the Government made about supporting the victims of retail crime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u002202cb388006a14105893d3b7ccd73d8f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202cb388006a14105893d3b7ccd73d8f6\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E I was pleased to recently announce that the Government is continuing to help retailers get support for the security and safety measures by more than doubling the funding available through the Retail Crime Prevention Programme. While the spike in ram raids continues to trend down, it is vital, as a Government, that we continue to support retailers through crime prevention, and that is exactly what we are doing. The additional $9 million for the fund comes in addition to the initial commitment of $6 million, bringing the Government\u2019s total contribution to $15 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5ace4f8628145f792a0aa689707e5c4\u0022\u003EVanushi Walters\u003C/span\u003E: How many businesses have benefited from the Retail Crime Prevention Programme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e0d933e81f14ba9be36654577e30b78\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: Over 500 businesses have had installations either approved or commissioned through the Retail Crime Prevention Programme, representing a total of 2,406 security interventions. Of those, 238 stores have had 1,107 security interventions installed and completed. That represents a complete fit-out of 240 fog cannons, 212 alarms, 195 security sirens, 110 roller doors, 84 sets of bollards, and 56 other interventions to improve store security. This, in addition to the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment\u2019s complementary fog cannon subsidy scheme, has approved 892 installations of fog cannons completed to date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ef3b951ed32494fbd4d67a21981839d\u0022\u003EVanushi Walters\u003C/span\u003E: What feedback has the Minister seen regarding the Retail Crime Prevention Programme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0e5b61ba54c4e7fb35df7a3ff68762b\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: Police have received a significant amount of positive feedback from dairies, shops, and other small retailers, who appreciate that this Government is backing them and their business. I\u2019m advised an assessor recently visited a chemist in Hamilton post installation, who expressed how grateful he and his wife were at the installation, particularly when his wife was working in the store alone. Another Northland store owner recently told an assessor, \u201CIn no form could we even contemplate the cost or afford this install the New Zealand Police has offered\u2014and, again, we are speechless with thankyous.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6e089c0bf1146eea627dbacd7ca219e\u0022\u003EVanushi Walters\u003C/span\u003E: What other work is the Government doing to reduce youth offending?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cd89f93f8cf42b38afe6c91b57678ff\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: Alongside our work to better protect the victims of retail crime, the Government is also funding programmes to hold young people who are committing these crimes accountable while working to get them back on track. Programmes such as Kotahi te Whakaaro are seen as a good success so far, with around 82 percent of young people referred to the programme not reoffending. The circuit-breaker programme also intervenes within a short 24 to 48 hours, if a young person was a recidivist offender, to stop them committing further crime. That programme has dealt with 84 children so far, and 67 of those have not reoffended. As the Minister of Police, I believe it is crucial that we are tackling the problem of retail crime at both ends.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228a48f1ad45ea4d67933df97eb5b1c5fc\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Revenue\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2f2e7e4c8af4b3ba14b4bef986caaab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2f2e7e4c8af4b3ba14b4bef986caaab\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Revenue: Does he stand by his statement that arguments against using unrealised gains for calculating effective tax rates are \u201Cbankrupt and rubbish\u201D, and will he rule out introducing legislation for a capital gains tax this year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea5047f189894b20ba2d8a6771aa2535\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea5047f189894b20ba2d8a6771aa2535\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I do stand by my full statement, which further said that the idea that you would exclude all unrealised capital gains in an assessment of the super-rich is absurd. It is widely accepted by New Zealand and international tax experts, including the OECD, that unrealised gains are economic income. In response to the second part of the question: as the Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance have made clear, the Government has made a series of commitments on what we would do and would not do on tax this term, and we have honoured those commitments. New Zealanders will know Labour Party tax policy for the next term before the next election, as they will for all parties contesting the election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2707821f1b24cb8aa3a4b499f3bd1d3\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Will he rule out taxing unrealised gains on assets such as New Zealanders\u2019 KiwiSaver accounts, their bach, or their small business, and, if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cfb3585b4d845fe8863d4b77b42927f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve got no plans to tax those. I would note what I said in the answer to the primary question. I would further note that the group that is in the study has, on average, $276 million of net assets, and structure their affairs so that the vast majority of their income is earned as capital income. The National Party, of course, is on the side of capital. The Labour Party notes that people who work for a living pay tax on every dollar they earn in their wages and salaries, every dollar they earn from a salary increase, every dollar they earn from overtime. It is the National Party and the ACT Party that think people who earn virtually all their income from returns on capital should pay tax at less than half the rate of people who earn their living through salary and wages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f7d78a8cd5443609383c749c2b0515e\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Is he aware that there\u2019s no other developed country that taxes unrealised capital gains, and, if so, why would the introduction of such a policy be good for Kiwis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214c28141bffc4a7498a3e68281ddc26e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not suggesting that all unrealised capital gains should ever be taxed. But if you want to find a country that does tax some unrealised capital gains, why don\u2019t you count Switzerland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022119d3d1bca3547f29b5b4bc8a3430fc2\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Did he express his view to the Prime Minister that arguments against a tax on unrealised capital gains were \u201Cbankrupt and rubbish\u201D, when the Prime Minister explicitly ruled out a capital gains tax, after the release of the IRD report?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf336bb96d21453ea778c4ae6fe7ef94\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve addressed some of those issues in the primary answer. I would also note I don\u2019t discuss what is discussed in Cabinet. But I can say that discussions in the Labour Party on taxation are much more economically literate than they are from the other side, who would tax labour at twice the rate of capital income.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255ec7c345ecd46fc9cecd6a69401f367\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Does he support the introduction of a capital gains tax?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022071aafe4ef4f4de2bf3a2e566ffd1388\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I stand by the Labour Party policy, which is that we keep our promises to the electorate. We have kept our promise this term. Our tax policy for the next term will be known before the election, and I would note that it wasn\u2019t the Labour Party who promised not to increase GST and then did it in Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a9a2a664bc3f4c2fa2ef3d1a93fcd9cf\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002285b8b3eb3eaa42e5a240ce1e062299ec\u0022\u003EGeneral Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002231b72ffc338d46d68e21160b0c05a7c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231b72ffc338d46d68e21160b0c05a7c6\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of miscellaneous business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EToday, we saw the strength of the New Zealand economy. Today, we saw that the unemployment rate in New Zealand has reached a near-record low again, of 3.4 percent. But more than that, we saw the benefits of having a Government with an economic plan so that the average hourly wage rose 7.6 percent. Members opposite seem to believe that the only way we can increase incomes is to cut taxes, but, actually, the way to increase incomes is to see wages lift, and I am proud of the fact that we have done that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI\u2019m equally proud that we now have 2.886 million people in work. Since 2017, 281,000 jobs have been created in the New Zealand economy. That\u2019s what happens when Kiwi businesses work hard and when they are supported by a Government that gets alongside them, takes them through the hard times like COVID, makes sure that they\u2019ve got skilled workforce, and makes sure that apprentices are there, and we are seeing the NEET rates coming down within this and we\u2019re making sure that we compare ourselves well with the rest of the world. So it is a good day for the workers of New Zealand to see their wages rise and to see more people in work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIt is equally a good week for the New Zealanders who receive the winter energy payment. Just over a million New Zealanders know that they will be looked after during the winter period: an extra $31.82 a week for a couple, and $20.46 a week for a single person. That\u2019s looking after New Zealanders when they\u2019re doing it tough, and be crystal clear that if there is a National-ACT Government after October, the winter energy payment is gone\u2014it\u2019s gone. ACT don\u2019t want it, and National don\u2019t have the backbone to stand up to ACT and make sure that it\u2019s there. So for every pensioner in New Zealand and for every person in receipt of a main income benefit, the winter energy payment is gone if National and ACT find themselves in Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EBut that policy of National and ACT shows you just how out of touch they are, and we\u2019ve seen a few examples of that over the course of the last couple of weeks, including Chris Bishop deciding that it was time to bring back no-cause evictions. Now, that policy is fundamentally wrong, but then Mr Bishop said that it was a tenant-friendly policy to get rid of no-cause evictions. In the same way that Dracula is a great friend of the blood service, Chris Bishop is telling tenants all across New Zealand that \u201CIt\u2019s OK to be kicked out for no reason, because we are your friends.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThen we heard from Nicola Grigg that National was bringing back live exports\u2014National was going to bring it back. It was actually an extremely bizarre interview, if you ever get the chance to watch it. It included a statement where Nicola Grigg said that she\u2019d been on a live export ship but gave no good reason why she got off it. On this side of the House, we value animal welfare and we value making sure that we look after New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThen there is the latest resident of the National Party \u201CBermuda Fiscal Triangle\u201D: Shane Reti. I know that I can speak on behalf of members on this side of the House when I say, \u201CShane on you!\u201D\u2014\u201CShane on you!\u201D\u2014because we know that it\u2019s important to get the numbers right. I know that Dr Ayesha Verrall, the Minister of Health, has worked hard to make sure that Mr Reti is informed, but yet he continues to go out there and misinform New Zealanders about what is happening in our health service, and I say again, \u201CShane on you!\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EBut all of this comes from the top in the National Party. It comes from a leader in Christopher Luxon who has consistently run New Zealand down. This is a person who went to a right-wing thinktank in the UK and said that New Zealand businesses didn\u2019t work hard enough. This is the person who decided that he wanted to get rid of a public holiday, and who didn\u2019t understand the difference between the Clean Car Standard and the Clean Car Discount. But, worst of all, he singled out a group of New Zealanders on low and middle incomes as bottom feeders. This is a leader who is out of touch, who is leading a political party that is out of touch, and who is running down the New Zealand economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis is a day when we have seen a record number of New Zealanders in work and an unemployment rate of 3.4 percent. That is what having a Labour Government gives, and I\u2019m proud of that work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u002293cc472b310d43d0ade2b7626fbd6e68\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293cc472b310d43d0ade2b7626fbd6e68\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealanders are in the trenches. They are battling a prolonged cost of living crisis, waking up each day worried about money, and what does the Minister of Finance have to say to them? What does he have to say? He says, \u201CHey, look, the economy is going great. Don\u2019t complain. You have me to thank for having a job.\u201D That is what the Minister of Finance did today, on this very day when we have been warned by the Reserve Bank Governor that more and more New Zealanders are failing to make their mortgage payments; that we risk a self-reinforcing negative feedback cycle as a result.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EOn a day when we have learnt that around half of New Zealanders are now worrying about money on a daily and weekly basis, when we have learnt that more than 400,000 New Zealanders are now in debt arrears, we have a Minister of Finance who thinks it\u2019s a good time to crow about the economy. I say that, right when New Zealanders need a Government focused on them and fixing the cost of living, instead we have a Government that is falling apart, beset by distractions and division and internal fighting, right when New Zealanders need leadership and strength. We have nurses leaving in droves. We have violent crime increasing. We have more children truant from school. And, instead of dealing with all of this, Labour are preoccupied with stopping their own party from falling apart.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s have a look at the distractions we\u2019ve had these past few days. We\u2019ve had the \u201CMinister for More Tax\u201D David Parker out there with his academic, theoretical Piketty project\u2014his little fantasy about all the new ways he could tax people if only he was allowed. He\u2019s there and he\u2019s thinking up these cunning new taxes and how he might slip them through. Never mind that talented entrepreneurial people are already leaving this country in droves! Never mind we have the biggest current account deficit in decades! Never mind we actually need more investment, not less! No, David Parker is doing everything in his power to scare them off. And I\u2019ll tell you who he\u2019s scaring off at the same time: every New Zealander with a KiwiSaver account. Every New Zealander who has worked hard in their life to build a small business, to invest in their hairdressing salon, to make sure that their mechanic business could expand; every New Zealander who thought, \u201CI\u2019m going to do the right thing and create a nest egg. I\u2019m going to build a rental property.\u201D\u2014David Parker is out to get them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EAnd what does Chris Hipkins do about it? He says, \u201COh, look, yeah, the economy is pretty fragile. It\u2019s absolutely turning into trouble, but don\u2019t worry; I\u2019ll just leave the door wide open for more taxes.\u201D \u201CI\u2019m not prepared to rule a single one out.\u201D, he says. Well, I think that is irresponsible and creates uncertainty at a time when New Zealanders need confidence. It is wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EThen we have Grant Robertson, not only crowing about the economy today but yet again telling us there\u2019s not enough money for New Zealanders to get the tax reduction they deserve. Yet this is the same week we learn he has happily given Michael Wood more than $80 million to subsidise Teslas. This is at the very time he\u2019s happily signed off on more than a billion dollars being spent on highly paid consultancy reports for Government departments. This is the same Minister of Finance who has found tens of millions of dollars for more communications advisers, policy advisers, working groups, but he won\u2019t let New Zealanders keep more of their own money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EAnd then we have Meka Whaitiri. We have the people in Hawke\u2019s Bay still digging up silt from their homes and businesses. First they had to deal with the indignity of the Stuart Nash scandal, and now they learn that the Minister put in charge of recovery in their area has so little faith in this Labour Government that she\u2019s quit it altogether. Well, I say to the people of Hawke\u2019s Bay: National has got your back; you know which way to vote this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EAnd then we have Ayesha Verrall. While nurses are leaving in their droves, she wants to have a petty debate about just how many, instead of confronting the problems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ELabour has sprayed the money hose around; they\u2019ve created a mess. It\u2019s time for a new Government to come in and clean it up. That is what we will be elected to do. We will stop the Government eating your lunch. We will get New Zealanders back on track.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u002233e756739daf4e728703c30e15f9c360\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002233e756739daf4e728703c30e15f9c360\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. Ka tangi apakura t\u0113nei ki ng\u0101 hunga kua riro atu ki te p\u014D ki roto i ng\u0101 wiki kua pahure ake nei. An\u0101 ko te kaiako rongonui, a Taini Jamison, kua riro atu ki roto i ng\u0101 rangi kua taha ake nei. Me t\u014Dku tuakana a JB Heperi Smith, kua riro atu ki te p\u014D. Ki a r\u0101tou katoa kua riro atu, t\u0113nei ka tangi atu, t\u0113nei ka mihi atu, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EKa whakahokia mai ng\u0101 r\u0101rangi k\u014Drero ki a t\u0101tou. T\u0113n\u0101 koe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E[I grieve for those who have been lost to the night in recent weeks. In particular, the famous coach Taini Jamison, who has passed on in recent days. And my senior JB Heperi Smith, who has also passed into the night. To all of them who have passed away, I grieve, I acknowledge them, I acknowledge you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI now return the lines of discourse to us. Thank you.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EAs I quite often do, I acknowledge those who have passed on. I acknowledge the great leadership of Taini Jamison, who broke glass ceilings in her time to lead the Silver Ferns, to carve out a distinguished career in her community and in netball, and I want to acknowledge her passing. She was a true leader, a true wahine toa of the M\u0101ori people and, indeed, of this nation. Also, to my tuakana JB Heperi-Smith: his people continue to mourn his untimely passing in Ng\u0101ti Kahungunu and beyond. I wish them all farewell, and then I come back to the living.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019ve heard from the other side is what we know from a National Party, and that is the status quo, because that side of the House continues to promise tax cuts to the wealthy and will not come clean to this country about what services they\u2019re going to cut. Well, let me tell the voters out there what they\u2019re going to cut. They\u2019re going to stick with the status quo in health and they\u2019re going to cut the initiatives to get equity into a health system that has failed this country for far too long.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThis side of the House was dedicated to the health reforms. We\u2019ve established Te Aka Whai Ora - M\u0101ori Health Authority. What that side of the House is telling the voters out there is that they were satisfied with the status quo, they were satisfied with the huge gap on life expectancy between M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori. They\u2019re telling the public out there that it was OK that M\u0101ori tamariki in communities around the country do not have access to a fair and equitable health system that will help them while they\u2019re young and serve them into the future. That\u2019s what they\u2019re telling voters out there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWe want to be very clear that on this side of the House, we are committed to making sure that, one, the health sector is equitable. We know there are challenges in the health sector. Those are challenges that have been there for many decades, ignored in the past and in my time in this House sitting in Opposition, listening to a National-led Government continue to ignore the health system at the peril of this country. We tackled that particular challenge to say we in this country deserve an equitable health system that\u2019ll continue to serve our people, and that\u2019s exactly what we\u2019re delivering.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWhat that side of the House don\u2019t want to hear, too, are the good, positive numbers for employment that we\u2019ve seen under the leadership of the Hon Grant Robertson and this Government. Record low M\u0101ori unemployment\u2014let me say that again: record low M\u0101ori unemployment. On that side of the House, they might moan about those on the bottom, they might moan about those who continue to rely on the State, but what we\u2019re saying on this side is we\u2019re celebrating the fact that M\u0101ori unemployment is the lowest it\u2019s ever been on record, saying that more of our people are working hard, more of our people are contributing to the wellbeing of their family by getting out there and earning a fair day\u2019s wage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI\u2019m proud of the leadership in the economic space that this Government is giving this country during the hard times. COVID-19: this Government stepped up, and when we were helping businesses, that side of the House were telling the rest of the country, \u201CNo, they\u2019re not doing enough.\u201D Now that we\u2019re continuing to help businesses, they\u2019re saying, \u201COh, well, maybe we\u2019re just spraying money around, we\u2019re wasting it. We\u2019re frivolous with the way that we spend our money.\u201D That\u2019s not true. You listen to the businesses out in the community, and they tell you: under the leadership of this Government through COVID-19, we supported them, we stood alongside them, and I\u2019m proud of that fact. And we continue to do it today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThere are sad sights and scenes across Te Tair\u0101whiti, Hawke\u2019s Bay, Thames-Coromandel, T\u0101maki-makau-rau, and Te Tai Tokerau. This Government stood up quickly to support businesses, stood up quickly to support families. We acknowledge that there\u2019s more work to be done. Ministers on this side of the House have already made it clear we\u2019re committed to continuing that support. We\u2019ve already started much of the work, and I myself have been to both those regions and seen the positive investment this Government has made to make sure that those communities are strong now and into the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThis Government won\u2019t back down from hard challenges. We know there are lots of challenges in this community, but we\u2019re up for the challenge, we\u2019re up for the fight, and we need the rest of this country to know that the Government that is leading them right now is the best Government for them after the election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb52fa82d30848f682034cab80936c82\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb52fa82d30848f682034cab80936c82\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I heard the Prime Minister say something I agreed with the other day. It\u2019s something I agreed with so much, ACT has been saying it for a long time. The Prime Minister of New Zealand, Chris Hipkins from the Labour Party, said it\u2019s not right for families to have to tighten their belt up and down New Zealand if the Government isn\u2019t doing it too, and I thought, \u201CAmen to that.\u201D, because I hear it every day\u2014or, actually, not quite every day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EYou see, people don\u2019t talk about the cost of living crisis, because they\u2019re often a bit embarrassed. People who are honest, who work hard, and who do the right thing day in, day out, find themselves through those days at the end of the week a bit short and can\u2019t make ends meet. They don\u2019t understand why that is. They don\u2019t understand why people who do the right thing should actually not get the dignity of being able to pay their bills on time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI hear people say, \u201CWhen my tyres fail a warrant, well, it\u2019s at least $200 a quarter, I have to juggle for week after week, pay day after pay day, to get back on an even keel.\u201D I talk to business owners\u2014I won\u2019t say who\u2014who tell me, \u201CI\u2019m aware of employees that I have to give a petrol voucher to or else they can\u2019t afford to actually drive to work and keep earning money.\u201D So it goes on. People are having to tighten their belts up and down this country, and the Prime Minister says that\u2019s not right if the Government\u2019s not tightening its belt. But take a look at what this Government has been up to: it has an insatiable appetite for your and my tax money, and the way it spends it doesn\u2019t do justice to the money it\u2019s taking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EJust think for a moment about education. Over the past five years under this Labour Government, we\u2019ve gone from spending about $13.6 billion to $18.7 billion\u2014in five years. That is a 38 percent increase in spending on education. But are more kids going to school? Are they learning more? Do they feel that they\u2019re being prepared to be skilled and talented citizens able to navigate the 21st century? Is there a place in every community where a kid can go\u2014whether they\u2019re boy or girl, rich or poor, M\u0101ori or P\u0101keh\u0101\u2014where a knowledgeable adult will transfer them valuable academic knowledge that they want to go to, that they regularly go to? No; we\u2019ve got a hundred thousand kids regularly not attending school, and, as we found out from Newstalk ZB last week, 10,000 that aren\u2019t even enrolled in the system. That\u2019s with a 38 percent increase in taxpayer money into education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EWhat about health? Well, in 2018, this Government inherited a health budget of $17 billion; in 2023-24, it will be $28.8 billion. They say it\u2019s all because of COVID. I predict if this Labour Government is re-elected with its M\u0101ori Party and Green Party crutches\u2014heaven forbid\u2014they\u2019ll be blaming COVID through to the next decade. But the truth is that the pandemic\u2019s over. We\u2019ve got an extra $10 billion in education expenditure; 68 percent increase in education spending by the end of COVID, in spite of only 20 percent inflation generally\u2014and that\u2019s high. For 68 percent, are people getting their operations faster, can they get into their GP quicker, can they get their medication, and are people really looked after better with a 68 percent increase in expenditure? No, they are not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EWhat does this Government do? It comes up with bogus studies suggesting that some people who pay the most tax aren\u2019t paying enough, and goes on a witch hunt\u2014or should that be a rich hunt?\u2014suggesting, if only the Government had more money, then it could solve all our problems. Well, how\u2019s that working out? Things are not good in the New Zealand economy, they are not good in New Zealand under labour. Real change is required, and that means careful use of Government finances to get practical results for the people who pay the bills, and real tax relief for those taxpayers so that they can keep more of the hard-earned money that they earned in order to fight the price rises that they already see at the checkout and the pump, making it harder for them to get by week to week in dignity. That is the real change and the real solution a party vote for ACT will give you this October. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u002291c5a0ffa03b4e3397fe97dd0d957f26\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291c5a0ffa03b4e3397fe97dd0d957f26\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E Some parties in this House just whinge and moan, and others just get on with the job of looking after Kiwis, and taking care of bread and butter issues. One of those issues is making sure that our communities stay safe. The best way of doing that is to make sure our police service is well resourced. That is exactly what this Government is doing. By June this year, we will reach the target of 1,800 additional police officers. And that\u2019s what we are doing right now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EWhen I\u2019ve been travelling around the districts and meeting with front-line officers, it\u2019s been really good to see where those resources are being used, and the differences that they are making in our communities. It\u2019s important that we give our police officers not only the tools but also the resources to keep our communities safe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s do some sums\u2014in terms of where we are in ratios\u2014if we want to talk about some comparisons. So in 2008, when the Labour Government left, back then, it was one police officer for 515 New Zealanders; by the end of 2017, when National left office, we\u2019re at one police officer for 548, gone up that much; and now, in 2023, one police officer for 486. A huge drop there in terms of being able to provide better-quality policing services and keeping our communities safer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI remember, as a non-sworn employee of New Zealand Police, when there was a policy on sinking lids for the non-sworn staff. Each day, when you would come to work, there\u2019d be an empty desk that would not be re-employed. It got to the point where the person who was the executive assistant\u2014doing the emails for the district commander\u2014was a senior sergeant. In my view, the job of a senior sergeant is in charge of their section out in the community, not doing the emails of a district commander.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E Of those 1,800 additional police officers, 700 are specifically devoted to organised crime. When I visited Rotorua and met with police officers up there, it was great to see that they had used those resources specifically for gang harm reduction within the communities, by having established connections and by using their intel, it is assisting to resolve homicides quicker, particularly in those ones that are tough to resolve in gang communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to talk, also, a little bit about another police operation that\u2019s been going on for a while now, which is Cobalt. Cobalt is able to run successfully due to the fact that we\u2019ve got 700 additional police officers. So since 13 June 2022 to 21 March of this year, the searches that have been completed under Operation Cobalt are 1,586\u2014963 of those were warranted. That has resulted in over 30,000 charges targeted at gangs and organised crime. The number of firearms seized as a result of that work is 358 seized. That is important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EBut not only is it important that we make sure our front line are resourced, it\u2019s just as important that they are safe. That is why this Government has invested in the Tactical Response Model, keeping front lines safe, combining equipment and capability with intel. So they are deploying to demand and making sure that they have the resources in place, and even doubling the number of dog teams when they go out\u2014instead of just one\u2014and double the amount of tactical training, providing additional services in that space, and being able to respond to crime quicker. It\u2019s been interesting. I keep a close eye on retail crime, and it has been good to see\u2014in every instance I\u2019ve watched recently\u2014that those offenders have been quickly brought to account and police have acted quickly. Part of that, I believe, is the fact that that\u2019s the resourcing in place to enable our police service to do their job well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIn terms of retail crime, it\u2019s also important that we make sure our small businesses are looked after. That\u2019s why the retail crime prevention scheme has been operating well, to not only give additional safety features to those businesses but also advice to know how to use that equipment, how to keep oneself safe, and what to do in instances when you are a victim of a crime. The Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment fog cannon scheme: also working well, which is good to see. We\u2019re seeing that when those fog cannons are deployed, they stop the crime from proceeding. They are an effective tool that small-business owners are pleased to be receiving. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to finish up by saying and acknowledging the good work that our community has been doing to reduce youth offending; an 82 percent reduction in successful programmes like Kotahi te Whakaaro. This is a tough job, to try and resolve these issues. But by working together, resourcing our community well, and working together, we will do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u00224c88abc46f0e4e30bbba5c1a4c4a8d35\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c88abc46f0e4e30bbba5c1a4c4a8d35\u0022\u003EDr SHANE RETI (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. The health system is in crisis, and the only two people who don\u2019t know it are Andrew Little and Ayesha Verrall. It\u2019s just six letters, but they don\u2019t want to say it; they don\u2019t want the crisis on their watch. And, you know, if we look at some of the numbers, some of the data around first specialist assessments and those on surgical waiting lists, and emergency department times, it really is a travesty how bad those numbers are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EAnd while we\u2019re talking about numbers, let\u2019s talk to the numbers that Grant Robertson just put up\u2014\u201COCR Grant Robertson\u201D; \u201Cofficial cash rate Grant Robertson\u201D? No, \u201Copen cheque book Grant Robertson\u201D. Let\u2019s talk about those numbers he just put up and contest them for a moment, because I\u2019ll tell you something for nothing, I\u2019m not going to be taken to task by a health Minister who, several months ago, said that the emergency department (ED) wait time to target in Northland was 99.4 percent\u2014that is, no wait time\u2014at the same time, they\u2019re trying to call in the army. Highly unlikely I\u2019m going to accept her data or any messages from her. Furthermore, she then put up the data; that terrible performance data that she took down, she eventually reposted. We said to her, \u201CWas the original data accurate? Were resourcing decisions made on the original data that you put up?\u201D and she said yes, it was accurate. She reposts the data that she has relooked at about six weeks later, and surprise, surprise, it\u2019s all different\u2014to which she says, \u201COh no, there\u2019s just administrative differences, that\u2019s what administrative data does.\u201D Well, you know, 4,500 extra people\u2014and I think it was Middlemore ED: that\u2019s not administrative, that\u2019s an error; that\u2019s a mistake, that is wrong. I do, however\u2014when we\u2019re talking about the data that\u2019s been in contention this week\u2014I do want to thank the Minister. We\u2019ve had a great media run on this announcement; they have been able to stretch it through further, and more people are looking at this big number than we would have quite anticipated. So I thank them very much for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003ELook, we announced a policy to address the beginning of the nursing pipeline, and we understand that of course it needs more experienced nurses. But what we\u2019re saying with our nursing announcement is that we value nursing students and we want to retain them. The policy that we announced\u2014that we would give student loan relief to students in their five years post-graduate\u2014was a policy of $4,500 per year, bonded to the system every year for five years, or $22,500. And what we\u2019ve heard is several things, but let me come back\u2014certainly, it\u2019s been well received, but let\u2019s look at where the impact was. The impact was at the front end; that is, we\u2019re hoping to make nursing more attractive. Secondly, for those nursing students who are finding it tough with cost of living, who haven\u2019t maximised the amount of the student loan that they can attribute to cost of living\u2014which is about $300 a week\u2014we\u2019re hoping that seeing some remedy when they graduate will encourage them to maybe take that up further if they need it. Thirdly, we\u2019re wanting to retain nurses for those five years when they graduate. And this has been very well received; if we look at the commentary from the Aged Care Association (ACA), and let\u2019s remember, they\u2019ve got probably the second-biggest amount of nursing shortages across the sector. Hospitals, around 300\u2014aged residential care, at least 1,000, probably 1,200. ACA chief executive Simon Wallace says the policy is well targeted and will support the aged-care sector to recruit the nurses it desperately needs: \u201CWe are pleased that National \u2026 has taken time to understand the issues and developed [the] policy\u201D. Very pleased with this policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EAs we stand here today, what a mess this Government is in. More in-fighting in the Labour caucus; the timing is unbelievable\u2014as soon as the PM leaves, no one in the Labour caucus knows anything about it. I do want to say to Meka: I wish you well on your next journey, and wherever you may land, I hope that goes well for you. You know, as I was leaving Parliament last night, I heard some soulful music coming from the direction of Meka\u2019s office, and, when I listened, it was the Engelbert Humperdinck song \u201CRelease Me\u201D is what I was hearing. And if you recall the lyrics: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u201CPlease release me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003ELet me go, because I don\u2019t love you any more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003ETo waste our lives would be a sin. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003ESo please release me and let me love again.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003ESo to the Labour Party, from Meka Whaitiri\u2019s office, please release Meka Whaitiri from the shackles of incompetence. Please release Meka Whaitri from the addiction to spending. Please release Meka Whaitiri from the bonds of socialism. And to the Labour Party, please release Meka Whaitiri, and let her love again. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022740c67059dc344be8982e7c212dd99bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022740c67059dc344be8982e7c212dd99bb\u0022\u003EDr ANAE NERU LEAVASA (Labour\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E Fa\u2018afetai lava, Mr Speaker. It is a pleasure to rise as the MP for Takanini in this general debate, and, first of all, I just want to acknowledge the three Labour Ministers who have spoken before me: the Minister Grant Robertson and the work in terms of funding the policy of 1.4 million - plus people who have received a benefit in terms of the 1 April changes, and I thank him for that. In my community of Takanini in South Auckland, that has been greatly received and I thank the Minister for that. I also want to acknowledge Minister Peeni Henare for the work that he\u2019s done, and also the announcement of the equity funding in terms of the capitation formula that will help our primary-care providers in terms of funding and assisting our communities where it\u2019s needed. I also want to acknowledge Minister Ginny Andersen and the police numbers. As we see today, in June 2023 seeing the numbers increase to 1,800 will be a huge benefit for our community in Takanini.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EJust coming off from the recess, it\u2019s been a great recess: three weeks back home and doing the mahi back in the electorate. I know other MPs have worked hard. There\u2019s been a lot of engagement there, activities, and I just want to highlight some of those activities and also the changes and announcements from this Government that will definitely help our communities back in our own home electorates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003ERecently, we celebrated Vaisakhi celebrations in terms of the spring harvest from our Sikh community and other faiths, and I just want to acknowledge\u2014because Takanini has the largest Sikh temple in Aotearoa New Zealand, and I just want to acknowledge the activities that happened in our electorate back home. I also want to acknowledge Minister Michael Wood, who came to one of those events held at the Takanini Sikh temple sports complex, where we got to watch kabaddi and the activities there. I don\u2019t know if you know that kabaddi is a wrestling/tackling match, that I thoroughly enjoy, being a rugby player as well, and I know there\u2019s going to be a lot of wrestling leading up to elections as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EOne of the announcements that was greatly received, as well, within our community is the immigration-setting changes where we will see an assistance where 32 new health sector roles have been added to the straight to residence pathway green list. We need to support our health sector, as many of our colleagues have mentioned, and in that way, changing the immigration settings\u2014not only for nurses and doctors but this is across the board in the different specialties to uphold the health system. So thank you to our Takanini Sikh leaders who had that discussion with our Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EOn top of that, the nurse pay equity changes\u2014and we\u2019ve seen some of the interim equity payments being paid across Aotearoa New Zealand. Yes, my wife is a registered nurse (RN) and I acknowledge her and her colleagues back in South Auckland who are doing the hard mahi, so we value\u2014definitely value\u2014our nurses, and this will help in terms of making sure that we acknowledge the work and pay them appropriately. Some of this base pay goes up to 14 percent, so some of these RNs are getting a $12,000 boost to their pay package.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EI recently got to go and visit Manurewa East School, which is in my electorate, in terms of their Bikes in School programme. I want to acknowledge the Ministry of Education and the Minister and where they support our kids in accessing some of these bikes in order to improve health and wellbeing. I just want to acknowledge the principal there and the work that they\u2019re doing and the project-managing that we\u2019ll keep on supporting, and I just want to make sure that I just say thanks to the ministry for doing their work as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve seen the 1 April changes come about, and I want to also acknowledge the winter energy payments that our elderly folk and those who are eligible to access this funding to help during the winter months that are coming ahead, and this is the overall health and wellbeing of our community. We recently sent out letters to make sure that they were aware of these 1 April changes and also the winter energy payment, and we have received much correspondence from our communities saying thank you for the policies that help our community during these tough times\u2014cost of living and also other events that have affected our South Auckland communities, such as the flooding as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003EI also acknowledge the boost to the Working for Families package as well as the students that are receiving a boost to their allowance and student loan living costs. I hold a Takanini youth council where we have the ages of 14 to 24, we have students from AUT\u2014Auckland University of Technology\u2014and this will greatly help them in supporting them during this time. I commend this Government\u2019s work to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022676cfe21df88479d8f00f46fc463448c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022676cfe21df88479d8f00f46fc463448c\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. This afternoon, I want to speak about the wellbeing of our children and young people, our tamariki and rangatahi. You know, many of them can\u2019t vote. They definitely don\u2019t get the same degree of access to this place as others. And it\u2019s really important for us in the Greens that to try and balance that, we do our bit to make sure that we\u2019re keeping them front of mind in our work in this House. And, you know, they\u2019re going to live the longest with the impact of the decisions that are being made here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003ESo I want to speak to a couple of reports that have come out recently that are relevant to our young ones; the recent release of the 2021/22 Child and Youth Wellbeing Strategy Annual Report, and some of the information in that. It\u2019s showing a gradual improvement for our young people in access to food and a reduction in poverty. Though, it\u2019s got to be said that even that gradual process is deeply, deeply uneven, that we\u2019re seeing glaring inequities. Pacific children are four times more likely to experience food insecurity than other children\u2014that\u2019s really significant for all of us\u2014and that there are much higher levels of poverty and material hardship for tamariki M\u0101ori, Pasifika, and disabled. Disabled children are twice as likely to be experiencing material hardship compared to other children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003ESo our policies are not delivering to all of our children and we\u2019re going to have to fix that. And this was reinforced on another level by research that came out yesterday\u2014Mako Mama - Mangopare\u2014that showed 45 percent of sole parents on low incomes found it difficult to access healthy food for their wh\u0101nau; 30 percent of our sole parent families are struggling to be able to get into healthy homes. Other research shows that one in five single parents don\u2019t have enough to meet basic everyday needs. And our young people are feeling this. This is not just figures. In the wellbeing report, they had a couple of quotes I want to pull out. So one from a young person saying, \u201CMy parents and family are stressed because of everything they have to pay for and things just get harder. I don\u2019t want to be [an] extra stress.\u201D And another kid says, \u201CI\u2019m 16 and working four jobs just to help my family get by\u2026 it\u2019s like I became an adult too early.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EThis is the part of the report that was the good news, alongside\u2014I have to acknowledge\u2014the reduction in preventable hospitalisations. But this was the good news part of the report, because then we go into the fact that our young people are in, I think, an unprecedented crisis where a quarter of them had experienced discrimination in the last year; 37 percent of 12- to 18-year-olds had been bullied in the previous year. And that has resulted in\u2014and I just want people to get their heads around this\u2014over one in 10 of our 12- to 18-year-olds, our children, had attempted suicide in the 12 months before that survey; over one in 10. And that one in four disabled children between the ages of 12 and 18, and rainbow children in the same age group, had attempted suicide. They are saying they cannot cope, and that is on us. And I just can\u2019t get past that, that being the realities for that many kids and all of their families, trying to keep them tethered to this earth to be able to have the opportunities and the life that they deserve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EAnd I\u2019m not trying to pretend there\u2019s a simple answer to this or that it\u2019s actually a fault of any one Government. It\u2019s actually a call to action for every single one of us in this House to feel that responsibility, to think about what we say and our actions, and are we building connection? Are we eradicating poverty? Are we taking climate action? Are we doing what our children and our young people need us to do, for them to have a sense of hope? And I\u2019m here to say that the Green Party will do what we can, because our young people deserve it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022 data-id=\u002244b0bf07e3df4be9bbd25dd66e9014cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244b0bf07e3df4be9bbd25dd66e9014cc\u0022\u003ETERISA NGOBI (Labour\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. And there are so many great initiatives\u2014as the member of Parliament for the \u014Ctaki electorate\u2014that I could speak about today, but today I\u2019m going to use my time to talk about infrastructure; the amazing amount of investment that this Labour Government has put into the infrastructure in the \u014Ctaki electorate\u2014I\u2019m not sure I\u2019m going to be able to get through it in just five minutes; that\u2019s how much there is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003EI have lived in the \u014Ctaki electorate for over 40 years, so I know what it looks like to travel to Wellington and back every day. I used to get stuck in the traffic jams, but no more, because we managed to finish TG\u2014or what we now call Transmission Gully. And I know, Mr Speaker, you were also there at the opening. A great piece of infrastructure, beautiful work, and I\u2019m hearing all the time of people being able to get home a little bit earlier and spend that time with their family. I hear from people outside of our electorate saying, \u201CHey, we can go and visit mum and dad or go and visit the K\u0101piti beach or Paraparaumu Beach because it\u2019s just not too far down the road now. There\u2019s not that big, long waiting queue.\u201D So a fantastic piece of infrastructure thanks to this Labour Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003EBut that\u2019s not all; wait, there\u2019s more. So what this Government\u2019s also done is made sure that we invested in PP2\u014C\u2014or Peka Peka to \u014Ctaki. Again, having travelled that road, and sometimes that\u2019s where the bottleneck is, we\u2019ve managed to build another piece of fantastic infrastructure, and, again, you shave off about another 10 minutes. So we\u2019ve got TG saving some time, PP2\u014C saving some time, you\u2019d think that\u2019s enough, surely to God; no, but wait, there\u2019s more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003ENot only have we done TG, not only have we done PP2\u014C, but now we\u2019ve also made sure that we\u2019ve committed to \u014C2NL\u2014or \u014Ctaki to north of Levin. Now, I know the Opposition quite often say, \u201COh, but they\u2019ve cancelled it so many times.\u201D That\u2019s not quite true. Or they\u2019ll say, \u201COh, is it really going to happen?\u201D Yes it is. So we are building \u014C2NL, we\u2019re building \u014Ctaki to Levin. We\u2019ve already started purchasing 60 percent of the land. It\u2019s fantastic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206f90b4c0e0a451991e7b9932e48c8ba\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: When is it going to happen?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222743420d551243a9b26ec02cea166092\u0022\u003ETERISA NGOBI\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, wait till you see it, Mr Bayly. You\u2019re going to have a great time coming through because it\u2019ll shave off even more time. I\u2019ve lived there all my life, 40-odd years, and I can tell you the excitement in the \u014Ctaki electorate, especially in the Horowhenua part, when we heard that this Government, this Labour Government, had committed to paying for\u2014and we\u2019ve committed the budget, $1.5 billion, you heard the Minister yesterday\u2014and made sure that we are committed to making sure we build Transmission Gully\u2014sorry, sorry, \u014C2NL; oh, sorry, PP2\u014C\u2014yes, all of them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003EBut also, wait, there\u2019s more. Yes, the most exciting news: this Government\u2019s just announced, under our amazing Minister of Transport, Michael Wood, that we are getting a train. That\u2019s right\u2014that\u2019s right. The \u014Ctaki electorate, again, having lived there for 40-odd years, we know that the last people to get the train to Waikanae was a Labour Government. Darren Hughes was his name\u2014fantastic guy. I went to church with him and school\u2014amazing MP. But guess what! We are now going to be able to extend that from Waikanae to \u014Ctaki to Levin and right through to the equally beautiful Palmerston North.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003ESo what does that mean for the people in the \u014Ctaki electorate? I\u2019ll tell you what that means. That means accessibility. That means equality. That means that people who might not have a car, can no longer drive, or might not be able to afford to run their car will be able to take the train. That means they\u2019ll have the same access and equality to things like further training and study, to healthcare, to be able to work outside for employment but come back to the beautiful \u014Ctaki electorate where they want to live. Sometimes it\u2019s a village with their whole families. Isn\u2019t that amazing, because we know that while we say infrastructure, infrastructure also means equality, it also means access, and it means what this Labour Government stands for: looking after people. That\u2019s right. That\u2019s what this Government\u2019s doing through its transport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003EBut not only that: I have a nephew, Rawiri. He\u2019s a beautiful young man. He\u2019s in a wheelchair and he\u2019s with my auntie, so he\u2019s a \u201Cgrandparent raising grandkids\u201D child. He\u2019s an amazing young man\u2014super-swimmer, really proud of him\u2014but, actually, it\u2019s going to be really tough for him to get to and from study. But not any more\u2014not under this Labour Government. We\u2019ve made sure that we\u2019ve got trains for him to independently go to the Levin train station, jump on a train, and go to Palmerston North if he wants to study, or go to Wellington if he wants to study independently. That\u2019s right. We are changing lives, on this side of the House\u2014that\u2019s what it\u2019s about. So it\u2019s not just infrastructure, it\u2019s not just TG, it\u2019s not just PP2\u014C, it\u2019s not just \u014C2NL, it\u2019s not just a train; it\u2019s changing lives. It\u2019s looking after all New Zealanders. It\u2019s making sure that everyone has access to equality, and everyone has access to be able to go out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve heard from some of our elderly people who would love to just be able to jump on a train with their gold card\u2014because it\u2019s free or cheap\u2014and go into Wellington, grab a cup of coffee, do a bit of shopping, and go back to the beautiful \u014Ctaki electorate. Why shouldn\u2019t we make sure that that\u2019s a thing that they can do? This Labour Government\u2019s doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00223f4a4be1439f48318653d07c7c9aec00\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f4a4be1439f48318653d07c7c9aec00\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Well, here we are today with a Government that is literally falling apart before our eyes at a time when we need focus. So what have we got? We have the mad professor David Parker thinking that we need to tax unrealised capital gains; we\u2019ve had Stuart Nash doing whatever he did\u2014I can\u2019t remember; we\u2019ve got Kiri Allan, who brought this new approach to transparency, which is to say you declare your perceived conflict of interests after you\u2019ve been caught, and that\u2019s her approach; and now we\u2019ve got Meka Whaitiri deciding to join the M\u0101ori Party. And so they\u2019ve lost three votes already, and the question is whether they\u2019re going to make it to election time with 60 votes intact and a clear majority\u2014I\u2019m not sure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo \u201CWho\u2019s next?\u201D is the question that we\u2019re all asking. Who\u2019s next? Who\u2019s going to go? I mean, I suppose, on the law of averages, you would have to say it would be the Minister of Police, Ginny Andersen, because the record has been that a police Minister in this Government hasn\u2019t lasted very long, so it could be her. But if you thought about it from a sense of merit, it surely would have had to have been Chris Hipkins for five years as a Minister of Education, and after five years the kids aren\u2019t going to school, and performance is going backwards\u2014on any measure he should go. And then Kiri Allan is in charge of justice at a time when violent crime has gone up 30 percent, and the number of people in prison have gone down more than 20 percent, following Government direction. Surely that deserves having to go as well, but who knows? Who knows who\u2019s going to be next?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EBut what we do know is, right here, right now, New Zealand is facing massive challenges. It needs a Government that is focused, that\u2019s united, that\u2019s strong, that\u2019s coherent, and that is on the ball, and we\u2019re not seeing that from this Government. We\u2019ve got two big challenges. First, we\u2019re in a war for talent. Anybody who reads the news knows that the Aussies are on to it. They\u2019re out there. They\u2019re going hard. They want to attract our most talented and skilled workers over there to help Australia. If the Government\u2019s response, if the Labour Party\u2019s response only, is to tax those most talented and most mobile more\u2014well, I don\u2019t think that\u2019s a very good approach. I think that\u2019s not a good approach and it\u2019s not going to get us very far. A single measure of progress for a country is: are we losing people to Australia or are we gaining people? We\u2019re usually losing people to Australia, but, under the Key National Government, we managed to turn that around so that they were coming to New Zealand on a net outflow of people coming to New Zealand. But that\u2019s gone back into reverse under this Government and it\u2019s only getting worse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe other real issue we have is a growth problem in this country. Where do we get the money in order to sustain the standard of living that we\u2019ve enjoyed? How do we pay for the extra nurses that we want? How do we get the teachers that we want? How do we have higher salaries? Well, we have to have a growth plan in this country. One of the key elements of how you grow an economy is through investment\u2014somebody, somewhere, deciding to put extra money into growing a business, starting a new business, either from offshore or from New Zealand, people investing. And, again, if the Government\u2019s only approach is to tax investment more\u2014which is what David Parker wants to do\u2014that seems like a dumb idea as well. That\u2019s not going to grow the economy any faster. You need to have good quality infrastructure. You need to have low taxes. You need to have a welcoming platform for investment. You need to have a skilled workforce\u2014you\u2019re not going to get a skilled workforce when the kids aren\u2019t at school. All those things are what you need to grow the economy, and that\u2019s why National has a clear growth plan. But from this Government, we\u2019re not seeing anything along those lines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe third challenge we have is a sense of disorder on our streets. Here we have, right now, a Government that has perfected the culture of excuses when it comes to disorder and crime, and particularly youth crime. If there\u2019s a crime going on, if there\u2019s a massive increase in ram raids, if people who work in retail and in dairies around the country no longer feel safe in their working environment, \u201COh well, it\u2019s not the kids\u2019 fault; it\u2019s somebody else\u2019s fault.\u201D is the response of somebody, somewhere down the line. And you go off, you have a meeting, you have your head patted, and away you go and we\u2019ll see you next weekend doing the same thing. That culture of excuses and soft on crime approach has led us to where we are right now. And the only\u2014the only\u2014target this Government has in the justice sector is to reduce the prison population by 30 percent, regardless of what\u2019s going on in our community, regardless of the level of crime, regardless of the fact that every night we hear the chopper over our heads in Auckland. That is the approach that has to change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo we need to win the war of talent with Australia, we need to grow the economy, and we need to restore law and order. That is what will be happening in this country in a few months\u2019 time when National returns to Government. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022903bb5e876e446b98da2dbb54e7ae437\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022903bb5e876e446b98da2dbb54e7ae437\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Gosh, that was so negative, and I didn\u2019t hear a single solution\u2014a whole lot of problems, no solutions. Now, I also heard a lot of negativity from the finance spokesperson opposite, Nicola Willis, who talked about \u201Cself-reinforcing negative feedback loops\u201D. Well, the only self-reinforcing negative feedback loop I heard was Nicola Willis, because this Labour Government is good for women, and Nicola Willis knows it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThe National proposition is bad for women, and here\u2019s why\u2014and, actually, when I say \u201Cwomen\u201D, I mean all women, including trans women. My heart goes out to the communities today that were out on the front lawn protesting. That is the last thing that our rainbow and trans communities need: to be debating their identity when there is a lot of struggle going on in New Zealand. This Government is here to help New Zealanders through these tough times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThe way that we are helping women is through the cost of living\u2014the targeted support through the cost of living\u2014but also the wages and the fair pay that the economic management is producing for women. The first two fair pay agreements around supermarket workers and hospo\u2014those are clearly sectors where women are overrepresented. That is very good news for women in those sectors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWe have reversed a freeze on income indexation for childcare. Let\u2019s remember, that was an indexation that the National Government introduced in 2010. Now 54 percent of families with children can access the changed system. I\u2019m really proud of that, and it is making a real difference, not only to women but to the children they support. We\u2019ve also increased the Best Start payment to $69 a week, as of 1 April.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EBut the other great news came today that the unemployment figures for women are at record lows. That is really, really good. There are 22,000 new jobs in New Zealand in the first three months. The average wage is going up 7.6 percent, and that is ahead of inflation at 6.7 percent. Why does that affect women? Well, we know that women are in the lower tiers of working, because more women tend to have fewer hours of work, tend to be at home looking after kids. So these differences in wages make a real difference for women.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWhat is the National Party doing? Well, one thing they\u2019re not doing is getting the numbers right, with the numbers of nurses leaving New Zealand. Whether it was misinformation or just bad calculation, I\u2019m not sure, but we haven\u2019t heard the National Party say that they\u2019re going to do anything to increases nurses\u2019 pay. Nursing is clearly a sector which there is a lot of women in. What this Government has done has increased the baseline pay by 38 percent and the top pay by 43 percent. So for the registered nurses who are on the highest amount, that has gone up since the Labour-led Government came in from about $66,000 a year to $95,000; that is a significant pay jump for a lot of people\u2014particularly good for women in my electorate. We have the Dunedin Hospital, we have lots of people in the tertiary and health sectors who are women, and those pay changes make a huge difference. We have not heard National say they will do anything to increase the pay for women.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWhat else have we done? We\u2019ve, of course, got the winter energy payment, which has just started this week. We\u2019ve got paid parental leave, which we\u2019ve increased from 18 weeks to 26 weeks. There\u2019s the expansion of bereavement leave to include those who have had miscarriages; something that I\u2019m really proud of and was an initiative that was started by my predecessor, the Hon Clare Curran.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EMeanwhile, National, if they get in, what will they do for women? Well, they\u2019ll freeze benefits; they\u2019ll cancel the winter energy payment; they\u2019ll raise the age of eligibility for super, and we know that super affects more women, because women tend to live longer; they will give tax breaks to the wealthiest people who, by and large, are mainly men; and they will reserve the option to use dawn raids if they think that\u2019s necessary\u2014that was an open statement by the Leader of the Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI am shocked that Nicola Willis would be so negative about the progress made by this Government, and talk about negative feedback loops when, clearly, for the women out there who want to see good government, this is a Government that is delivering for you. National are not doing anything; they\u2019re grizzling and complaining. They\u2019re not helping the feminised sectors. They\u2019re not helping women workers. They\u2019re not helping mothers. They\u2019re not helping the children that mothers are looking after. Voters have got a clear choice coming this October, and they need to vote Labour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u002221e6cd59e27a4d6292219d191c5b8358\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221e6cd59e27a4d6292219d191c5b8358\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Some time ago, we were all witness to the dreadful weather events that started with the Auckland Anniversary floods on 27 January, and then of course the Cyclone Gabrielle event. I need not remind everyone in this House but especially those that were affected in Northland, Auckland, Coromandel, Hawke\u2019s Bay, and Tair\u0101whiti of the effects of those events. But I do want to remind the House that these crippling events actually occurred many weeks ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EIn my own electorate I\u2019ve had over a hundred people out of houses, and I\u2019ve seen and visited many farmers; three of whom I know for sure have incurred losses of more than $500,000 each. And when I\u2019ve gone to the Minister for primary industries and asked, \u201CIs there going to be any more money for these people, because in many cases they\u2019ve only received $10,000?\u201D, I have been given no certainty that indeed there will be. And so I\u2019ve had to say to these farmers, \u201CDon\u2019t bank on any more money.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EAnd, of course, in Auckland, we had many businesses affected. And I know there\u2019s about 5,600 applied for applications, of which approximately half have had about $3,000 each. But when you think about those business owners in Auckland, many of them have had their homes affected and then they\u2019ve had to go to their businesses, they\u2019ve had to rip Gib off the wall, they\u2019ve had to comfort their staff, they\u2019ve had to deal with customer inquiries, and they\u2019ve had to go about all the pressures and the risks and issues that have arisen as a result of those events. And, unfortunately, the result and the support from the Government has been tardy. Those people are hurting. They\u2019re really hurting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBut more recently, during the recess, I was increasingly getting calls and emails from people in the Hawke\u2019s Bay who reached out to me because they weren\u2019t getting the help they deserved. I went down there, and I\u2019ve got to say that it was a sobering visit. Areas like the Esk Valley, P\u0101kowhai, and Puketapu are obviously the areas most affected. But one of the things I found intriguing was that we met up with the Chamber of Commerce, who are responsible for dispensing the funds to many of the affected businesses, and what transpired is that they found out their responsibility, after the announcement of the Government, which was that they were going to hand out money and, in fact, they were going to be the lead agency. That was outrageous. It was outrageous that they did not know about it and it showed an absolute lack of planning from the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBut then, in the afternoon, I met several groups of families with our excellent candidate from Napier, Katie Nimon, and it was harrowing. I\u2019ve got to say to you that one family\u2014and I can name them, Maik and Marianne Beekman\u2014they own a citrus orchard in Esk Valley. They grow avocados and other such\u2014mandarins and oranges. They explained their situation. They had come to New Zealand in 2009. They\u2019d moved to Hawke\u2019s Bay in 2014, and they\u2019ve had a successful business, but the floods have caused absolute devastation. There was only one tree left on their property that would remotely stand as an orchard tree that they could use in future. The rest of the property was covered in a metre and a half of silt. They\u2019ve lost all but one of their pets. This is a family that is hurting. And they\u2019ve now got to the stage where they cannot live on their property, they cannot live on their orchard, and they\u2019ve moved into Napier, and Mr Beekman has moved back to being a computer expert, trying to get a living\u2014he\u2019s living in rented accommodation with the family, trying to make enough money to recover the $100,000 in mortgage payments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThis is an area that is absolutely devastated. These people are really hurting. They are people without a home or a business. They\u2019ve got children that are crying at night. These are the people that need our help. Give them certainty. Give them hope. And I say this to the Government because these are New Zealanders that need our help: stand up and help them, Government, because they\u2019re asking for it every day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022039395b99ece43b0bb3fe4b708856fc2\u0022\u003EAppointments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224d3c792d4bdd40db91be3298410feb90\u0022\u003EDeputy Judicial Conduct Commissioner\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022263d1d60d5844ced92f90f05db6fea4e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022263d1d60d5844ced92f90f05db6fea4e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Attorney-General):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That, under sections 7 and 8A of the Judicial Conduct Commissioner and Judicial Conduct Panel Act 2004, this House recommend Her Excellency the Governor-General appoint Mary Elizabeth Ollivier as Deputy Judicial Conduct Commissioner for a term of four years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002288d659770e264875bc4cefdae404dd56\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288d659770e264875bc4cefdae404dd56\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for further consideration of the Appropriation (2021/22 Confirmation and Validation) Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e83bd565660145c5a3ebefa98463f864\u0022\u003EAnnual Review Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dbf00bfe2b214d67a9385ca98f6c3f2f\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000314\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 2 May on the Appropriation (2021/22 Confirmation and Validation) Bill.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022685b73bde98641108fd6a57ef3381541\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022685b73bde98641108fd6a57ef3381541\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Appropriation (2021/22 Confirmation and Validation) Bill. This is the debate on the financial position of the Government and the annual reviews of departments, Offices of Parliament, Crown entities, public organisations, and State enterprises as reported on by select committees. There are seven hours, 30 minutes remaining for this debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EStanding Orders 356(2) and (3) have been set aside, so there will be no sector-specific debates. Instead, specific Ministers will be available each day to respond to specific portfolios. The Government has indicated that the Minister for the Environment, the Minister of Local Government, the Minister of Immigration, the Minister of Police, the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries, and the Minister of Housing will be available today to respond to the members\u2019 questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ETime for this debate has been allocated to parties on a proportional basis. Each debate will be led off by the chairperson or another member of the committee that considered annual reviews most closely related to the Minister\u2019s portfolios. The Minister for the Environment is now available for 30 minutes to respond to members\u2019 questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fea5ad155e0e40b385586f38fa97960c\u0022\u003EEnvironment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u00226297fb1fdcb34ea7ae9b62272b3b4434\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226297fb1fdcb34ea7ae9b62272b3b4434\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Chairperson of the Environment Committee):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. So the Environment Committee reviewed seven agencies in the environment sector, and I will give a very brief overview of some of those agencies. I am very aware that the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, in a landmark report last year entitled Environmental reporting, research and investment: Do we know if we\u2019re making a difference?, highlighted the need for more information so that this Parliament could do its job better on reviewing expenditure and looking at the allocation of expenditure across the Government as a whole, in terms of environmental issues, rather than just on an agency-by-agency basis, and if we had better environmental reporting information, we would be better able to determine whether the money being spent on the environment\u2014over $3 billion in the 2022-23 year\u2014was actually making a difference in terms of supporting the health and resilience of the environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo we do need that better information, but the committee did examine agencies one by one, and one of them, of course, was the Climate Change Commission. The commission has been incredibly useful to the Environment Committee in terms of its briefings to us on how the emissions trading scheme operates and on things like biogenic methane, but, more importantly, it\u2019s been critical in terms of the advice that it is providing the Government in its second year of operation as a trusted independent adviser on how we get our emissions down, and also in relation to adaptation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe commission is a small entity. It\u2019s only in its second year of operation. It\u2019s been working over the 2021-22 year to build up its core capabilities, systems, and processes. It\u2019s got a small budget of $12.5 million and only 58 full-time staff, but it does seek to provide that really high-quality advice. It has provided advice to the Government on amending the emissions trading scheme and the price control settings, two reports during the year on agricultural pricing, and some clear advice on how we should not rely too heavily on forestry as a cheap abatement measure. Cabinet hasn\u2019t always accepted that advice, but it does provide a huge amount of transparency and accountability in the system through the advice being released. Of course, a significant achievement in the year was the release and the Government\u2019s publication of our first national adaptation plan in August last year, and the commission will assess and evaluate that report and look at how those actions are being implemented.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EAlso, obviously, we looked at the Ministry for the Environment. Since 2018-19, the Ministry for the Environment\u2019s expenditure and its staff have grown significantly\u2014more than doubling\u2014to $170 million in 2021-22, with over 820 staff. That\u2019s because it\u2019s been engaged in five major reform programmes, and the select committee did make some quite strong questioning of the chief executive and senior managers there. The committee knows some of that reform well, because we\u2019re dealing with the Natural and Built Environment Bill and the Spatial Planning Bill. That\u2019s one of the major reform programmes, as well as climate change, improving regulatory systems, and sustainable land and freshwater use, and we heard from the ministry that its focus is very much now not just on being a policy agency but also on implementation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EOne of the new entities that the committee looked at was the interdepartmental Climate Change Chief Executives Board and how, in terms of the national emissions reduction plan, that board is seeking to get greater collaboration across the public sector for the different areas that agencies are responsible for in terms of reducing their emissions. A similar initiative is the Strategic Planning Reform Board, which, again, is seeking to get collaboration across the greater spatial planning that is required under the resource management reform. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EOne of the areas we focused on was the Jobs for Nature \u2013 Mahi m\u014D te Taiao, the $1.2 billion, four-year project which was established as part of Budget 2020, as part of the COVID-19 recovery programme. We separately examined that. The major projects that are under way from the Kaipara Harbour, seeking to improve the health of the harbour\u2014landholders, farmers, iwi working together to reduce sediment\u2014and the real change-making nature of Jobs for Nature. Some of us on the select committee were concerned about what happens when the funding ends in June next year. Obviously, organisations knew when they were applying for funding that it was for a four-year term, but that was one of the many projects\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022aba457e8513749edba25828e5ac2dcc5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aba457e8513749edba25828e5ac2dcc5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has come to a conclusion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u002201afee19dff6416faf3de3227fca0f50\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201afee19dff6416faf3de3227fca0f50\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to, in my opening comments, thank the Environment Committee chair, the Hon Eugenie Sage, for her, I think, very comprehensive overview of the financial review hearing that we had in relation to the Ministry for the Environment and other agencies. I\u2019ve got a series of questions, and I\u2019ll go through them in sort of short bursts, if I might, and, hopefully, get responses from the Minister in the chair as we go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI want to pick up on a comment that the select committee chair made in reference to staff numbers and the percentage of the ministry\u2019s budget that is allocated to staff. It came very close to a hundred million dollars\u2014nearly 60 percent of the ministry\u2019s total funding allocation, went on staff; it was $99.9 million. So that\u2019s a serious lump of money in anyone\u2019s books. But for that, we\u2019ve seen a doubling\u2014in fact, more than a doubling\u2014of staff numbers within the ministry in the last four years. It has gone in excess of 800 staff members. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThe question I really have for the Minister is: notwithstanding the work that the ministry is undertaking from a policy development point of view, I really want to know whether the Minister feels that they\u2019ve been able to produce any tangible outcomes in a way that has meaningfully benefited our environment. There\u2019s been a lot of work, a lot of talk, a lot of meetings, a lot of consultations, a lot of planning, a lot of staff hours, and an awful lot of select committee time, I have to say, but, actually, very little in tangible output.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m keen to know from the Minister whether he feels that the current staff numbers are going to increase any further. When are we going to start getting some tangible results from the significant investment of public money on a department that was actually much smaller previously? And when does he think that we\u2019re going to start seeing some benefit from that investment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd3e7234430341fcacbf3af01c3591ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd3e7234430341fcacbf3af01c3591ff\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Can I thank the chair of the Environment Committee, the Hon Eugenie Sage, for her introduction, and the Hon Scott Simpson, who just took his seat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EJob numbers at the Ministry for the Environment peak later this year or next year, and they thereafter decline after we have gone through the peak of the big reform projects that we have got under way, the largest of which is resource management reform. Resource management legislation is, of course, cornerstone legislation for the country. Decades of concern that the resource management system hasn\u2019t worked properly\u2014concerns have been both that it hasn\u2019t adequately protected the environment, as evidenced by the very significant decline in water quality in recent decades, increasing climate change and emissions, and other environmental problems, and, on the development side, house prices that have gone through the roof, in part because overly restrictive land markets have decreased the number of building opportunities for people to build a new home. That\u2019s driven up effective house prices, not just for the new house that\u2019s built but for all of the second-hand houses sold in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThere were reviews by the Waitangi Tribunal, the Productivity Commission, and a trio, being the Northern Environmental Management Agency\u2014it was actually four\u2014the Property Council, Infrastructure New Zealand, and the Environmental Defence Society. They did a report, then some other reports, then a report from the Randerson panel, contributions from Local Government New Zealand\u2014everyone agreed that the Resource Management Act was past its use by date and that further tinkering wasn\u2019t going to fix it. A big reform project\u2014the select committee is in the middle of the consideration of that legislation. Indeed, they\u2019ve done most of the work already, and I thank them for that. Enormous hours have been put in hearing submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EOn the development side, the cost of consenting infrastructure in New Zealand has been 5.5 percent of project cost compared with benchmarked comparisons in Europe, done by the Infrastructure Commission Te Waihanga, where the cost there ranges between 0.5 and 5 percent of project cost. So New Zealand costs have been outside the most extreme of the range in Europe, and we\u2019re addressing all of those issues. It is a big project, and there will be hundreds of millions of dollars saved by users of the resource management system in the future, as well as better outcomes that will save New Zealanders, over time, billions and billions of dollars in unnecessary housing costs. We\u2019re going to save hundreds of millions of dollars on infrastructure consenting costs, and we\u2019re also going to have better environmental outcomes as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EI won\u2019t speak any longer at the moment, because I know the member has got other questions, but the other big projects include Jobs for Nature, where, for example, Ministry for the Environment projects have already seen 869,000 hours of work planting riparian margins and doing other good work that supports the efforts to improve water quality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u002242ef3f2094b54011a7f4cc679062619c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242ef3f2094b54011a7f4cc679062619c\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Minister. I wanted to ask just by way of a supplementary whether at some further point in this debate he might give us some confidence or not as to whether he thinks that his landmark resource management reforms will actually pass during the term of this current Parliament or not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EBut I want to turn now to issues relating to waste and, in particular, the waste levy increase. At select committee during financial review, we heard that the waste levy revenue is going to significantly increase, and that\u2019s obvious by the changes that this Government has made. But what we also heard was that the ministry said that they had been preparing to invest the increased revenue from the levy effectively. So what I\u2019d like to know from the Minister is, what is his plan from a policy point of view about the increased levy? Where are the dollars going to go; does he have any plan to change the distribution formula for the waste levy, which is currently a 50:50 split with territorial authorities; and if he doesn\u2019t have any plans to change that, why not? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EIn particular, I\u2019m keen to know, in response to the comment that the ministry officials made at select committee\u2014and I quote from the report. It says that it can be a challenge to decide where to invest the ministry\u2019s efforts in regards to waste. I\u2019m interested to know what initiatives and plans he has to invest that new revenue, and whether it will conflict or not with initiatives already taking place in the private sector\u2014potentially taken up by territorial authorities that may see that they want to use some of that funding to embark upon their own missions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00229cc891b6ff004ad1a5c8ccd24c9f1c90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229cc891b6ff004ad1a5c8ccd24c9f1c90\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E In respect of resource management reform, it remains our intention to pass the legislation before the election and to make substantial progress on the first version of the national planning framework, which is the next layer of instrument. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the waste levy, we\u2019re not proposing to change the 50:50 split between councils and central government. That would be very counter-productive, and you would find the consensus that we have around waste issues currently in the country would be put at risk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the investment plan that we have for the Government\u2019s share of that revenue that is published, some of the enabling infrastructure investments that are made possible by the increased waste levy include very sophisticated equipment. I was recently at the opening of a private sector investment that had been supported by the Waste Minimisation Fund which takes a very large quantity of the computer screens and TV screens that go to waste every year and literally puts them through a machine that chops them into little pieces 2 or 3 centimetres long. Optical sorters take those waste streams on a conveyor belt, using air and sorting them into the different grades of plastic and glass, and separating those different plastics into valuable waste streams that can then be recycled. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThat piece of kit, I think from memory, was around a million dollars. We\u2019ve only got one in the country, and we wouldn\u2019t have it but for the Waste Minimisation Fund. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00221e5bd9c5b9ea4ac29255a4822089209e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e5bd9c5b9ea4ac29255a4822089209e\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks very much, Madam Chair; thanks to the Minister for the Environment for his engagement. I wonder if he could reflect on the comments of the Chief Justice in relation to the Natural and Built Environment Bill and the Spatial Planning Bill; that the judiciary is prepared for extensive litigation following the passage of the bills, and if the Government\u2019s concerned about that, what extra resources they\u2019re planning in order to cope with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00222cabb279cdba4069b49cb348144cf4a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222cabb279cdba4069b49cb348144cf4a3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E There will always be some litigation following a change in legislation. It\u2019s actually inevitable unless you don\u2019t change the system, and everyone agreed the system needed to be changed; we are changing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWe are endeavouring to minimise some unnecessary change. For example, it took many decades for the country to agree that the Resource Management Act should work through a hierarchy of the Act, then national direction, then provisions of plans, which collectively reduce uncertainty if drafted well and leave less uncertainty at the consent decision-making point. That principle is carried forward. I know that the Environment Committee is engaged on that issue, in particular, because it\u2019s a very important issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe main point of the submission from the Chief Justice was actually a concern that, as drafted, in the form of the bill that went to select committee, it implied that the Environment Court has, itself, Treaty obligations, as opposed to the obligation to implement legislation that includes a Treaty clause. That\u2019s something that probably should have been picked up in the Resource Management Act as well, because the Resource Management Act, as with the new legislation, is the legislation that constitutes the Environment Court. So that\u2019s an issue that the select committee is paying attention to, as am I, because we don\u2019t want to be improperly conferring Treaty obligations upon the courts as opposed to the courts having the duty to apply legislation which includes scrutiny of whether the people who are making decisions under that, like councils, are giving effect to the legal provisions in that, relating to Treaty issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022f39f3db1860545ad90ecb32e8b33d058\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f39f3db1860545ad90ecb32e8b33d058\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, I just want to canvass some of the problems that have been identified to the Environment Committee when it comes to the resource management reforms and Natural and Built Environment Bill and the Spatial Planning Bill. We\u2019ve heard from submitters\u2014including major industries, property developers, and asset owners\u2014that they\u2019re concerned about the cost of having to participate not just in this legislation if it\u2019s passed but in all of the consultation, all of the legal work they\u2019ve had to do to understand their obligations. They\u2019re concerned about the time it\u2019s taking to actually undertake reform of the Resource Management Act. How much time has been lost and wasted? The Infrastructure Commission said it could cost over a billion dollars a year just in consenting alone, which is still being wasted as we go through this reform process. They\u2019re concerned about how complex the resource management reforms that this Government has proposed are and the uncertainty they introduced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EI attended a forum recently of resource management law practitioners. One of the panellists I sat with asked them, \u201CAren\u2019t you overjoyed that Minister Parker\u2019s reform is going to deliver you 10 years of litigation. You\u2019ll all be able to buy a new beach house or a private jet with all the cashing-in you\u2019re going to do while you work out what these new terms and definitions mean.\u201D And they said, \u201CNo, we\u2019re horrified. This is the last thing we want. We\u2019ve spent 30 years litigating what terms mean, understanding how to operate under the Resource Management Act. We\u2019d rather have that terrible Act, as it is now, than Minister Parker\u2019s reforms.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, are you aware that the Ministry for the Environment (MFE)\u2014and this has become clear through a number of pieces of legislation, including resource management reforms and most recently the Long-term Insights Briefing from MFE, which was developed last year and published in February\u2014appears to have been taken over by people who are obsessed with spiritual animist beliefs. I want to quote you from the Long-term Insights Briefing: \u201CDamage to the environment means\u201D\u2014and no, we\u2019re not going to be talking chemistry or engineering or floods or storms or slips\u2014\u201Ca loss of mauri\u2014the energy or spark of life that permeates all living and non-living things.\u201D How is it possible, Minister, that these beliefs have become so entrained, so normalised, in a department which is supposed to be solving some of our most difficult environmental problems, that their long-term insights policy attempts to craft public policy through the lens of spiritual and animist beliefs instead of seeking science and engineering solutions to our most common problems?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, do you believe, like the Hon Eugenie Sage once said, that modern landfills are good landfills, or should we instead be seeking technology\u2014like waste to energy, for example\u2014to reduce the 3.5 million tonnes of waste that New Zealand buries in landfills every year, consigning future generations for thousands of years to deal with those problems? Do you think that looking at those problems through the lenses of a spiritual and animist belief system is going to help us solve those critical problems, or is it science and engineering, Minister? The ministry that you\u2019re responsible for, Minister, appears to have lost its way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWhat I want to offer instead, Minister, is\u2014for your comment on\u2014an alternative focus to that of dividing New Zealanders up into those who are tangata tiriti and tangata whenua, and allocating decision-making rights on planning bodies to those based on their ethnicity. Should we not instead focus on property rights, on valuing all New Zealanders\u2019 taonga equally, on upholding the Treaty by actually acknowledging that it guaranteed the Crown\u2019s sovereignty and decision making, that it respected the property rights of New Zealanders who were here at the time and those who come after, and that we\u2019re all equal before the court? It doesn\u2019t appear to be the case with the resource management reform.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, have you considered whether some of the common sense and practical approaches set out in ACT\u2019s alternative solutions for building New Zealand and conserving nature would instead be a more appropriate way to reform the Resource Management Act and deliver more affordable homes with better infrastructure for Kiwis? Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a6d3c56137c4effa1594c1f47d4dd2c\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chair. This is an annual review debate, and it\u2019s very specific in its purpose. Considering that last contribution, I just ask you, please, if you could explain whether you feel that was consistent with Speaker\u2019s ruling 138/3?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210e6d6b3ae92423da90ea7f3b2c337e5\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: I referenced exclusively, throughout my questions to the Minister\u2014as context\u2014work undertaken by the Ministry for the Environment in the last year\u2014work which the Minister, in his capacity, is responsible for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022d563e545c33e4a6e8d9c6d066cc27c81\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d563e545c33e4a6e8d9c6d066cc27c81\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the Speakers\u2019 ruling number that you\u2014just in terms of a ruling to the member, it\u2019s about the period of expenditure under review and the work that the member actually referred to. I\u2019ll just leave it to the Minister to actually answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022b17a005663e842f88b32350ce4b87981\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b17a005663e842f88b32350ce4b87981\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. In respect of the point as to the importance of biophysical, as opposed to metaphysical, issues, I agree with the member that the priority for the Ministry for the Environment is to deal with physical environmental effects. Indeed, the Resource Management Act (RMA) reform puts weight upon that, amongst other things, by stripping out from the high parts of the existing RMA the excessive reference to amenity, which went to matters of taste, and the focus on physical outcomes. Which is not to say that different people don\u2019t have different spiritual viewpoints\u2014I\u2019m personally an atheist. I respect other people\u2019s rights to have views that are religious, and my atheism can be no more proven than their faith, whether it is Christian or other religions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EBut in respect of the other question the member raised about M\u0101ori participation in these issues, I would note that one of the complexities that we have to deal with in the reform of the resource management system is caused by existing Treaty settlements that have been negotiated by successive Governments. Some of the most complex, in respect of the management of resource management issues, were negotiated by the ACT \u2013 National Party \u2013 M\u0101ori Party Government, during the last Government, when they introduced the likes of the Waikato River Authority and the planning committee for the Hawke\u2019s Bay region. We are, as any responsible Government would do, upholding those Treaty settlements, which were part of the full and final settlements that should not be reopened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the assertion the member makes that this is going to cost more money, the cost-benefit analysis actually shows quite the contrary. One of the reasons why so many people support this is that they recognise that going down from over 100 RMA plans to 15 is desirable. Actually, many, many of the submissions do support it. Well, that\u2019s probably enough at this stage because other members will have other questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022de3afcd0be68488cbf671915b19c5eea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de3afcd0be68488cbf671915b19c5eea\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the next member, I would just like to let everyone know that we have five more minutes left on this environment debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022d055b75836494b6ebc3ba752c1cdaaa6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d055b75836494b6ebc3ba752c1cdaaa6\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Two questions for the Minister. The first is in relation to the housing supply Act, medium density residential zone law, which the Minister has written to the Auckland Council about, giving the council an extra year to comply with the law. My question is why did he not consult with other political parties in relation to that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EMy second question is in relation the Resource Management Act bills that he\u2019s just been talking about. Is he concerned about the submissions from groups like Contact Energy, Wind Energy Association\u2014in fact, all of the major electricity generators, who have made the point, to varying degrees of intensity, that it will make it harder to build the new renewable generation that we need in this country to achieve our decarbonisation goals?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f358d2bcbb5044a599dd4ad166135ad6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f358d2bcbb5044a599dd4ad166135ad6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E In respect of the first point, I\u2019m sorry if offence was taken that we didn\u2019t consult with the National Party before agreeing a one-year extension for some of the intensity work in Auckland. From our point of view, that was a justified request on the part of the council post the Cyclone Gabrielle events, which disclosed a need for some more hazard planning in Auckland, which we thought was proper to allow them time to do, particularly because they are actually dealing with those issues as we speak, but perhaps I should have contacted the member before I did that. To be honest, I didn\u2019t think of doing so. I didn\u2019t think to do so and then dismiss the idea; I actually didn\u2019t think of doing so, so I apologise to the member for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIn respect of the second issue\u2014just remind me with a word.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285376c8810f64d1ebd9d295b1a674548\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Contact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fe26db2ca8c4e5f8e6784a783b2d31d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, Contact Energy. Yes, well, we\u2019re updating the national guidance in respect of the consenting of new generation at the moment under the Resource Management Act. That will make it easier to consent community-scale wind. It will also make it easier to avoid accusations that everything\u2019s outstanding in an area from a landscape point of view and therefore windfarms should be in another region when everyone needs to do their bit. That will improve things, and that will transition into the National Planning Framework in the new system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe other criticism that was made by generators was that we were making it clear that you could get a long-term renewal of an existing hydro consent for the five main big schemes, which accounts for 80 percent of New Zealand\u2019s hydroelectricity in the country, but we weren\u2019t doing the same for smaller schemes. That criticism is being considered by the select committee and may be fair, but I\u2019ll wait to see the select committee recommendation on that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff2efb4d349d40ed80f71385d9721154\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff2efb4d349d40ed80f71385d9721154\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. In terms of the report of the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment about it being difficult to see the big picture with environmental spending, the planning is fractured, the spending is hard to account for\u2014has the Minister made any suggestions to the Ministry for the Environment about how they could improve transparency, or to Treasury in his associate finance Minister role, so that we can get a better picture and better scrutinise whether Government investment in the environment is delivering really good outcomes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00225294c6407cf14c02a77aaee4d8ac9e6e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225294c6407cf14c02a77aaee4d8ac9e6e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E The Government will be responding to the parliamentary commissioner\u2019s recommendations, as we do to all of his reports, and that is in process. In respect of the fact that you do separately have policy and on-the-ground work done by more than one ministry\u2014like the Ministry for Primary Industries, which is very important in some of this stuff\u2014there will always be some separation, but it\u2019s always desirable that we report these things together as we have done through Jobs for Nature.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002279d58dfb22f44a1b91f88535ae8a41e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279d58dfb22f44a1b91f88535ae8a41e6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: We have less than a minute left. I call on the Hon Scott Simpson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00226e1ffc7ec9554c9392c976d12a9f5022\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e1ffc7ec9554c9392c976d12a9f5022\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Is the Minister going to better resource the Environmental Protection Agency to ensure that they can do chemical assessments and reassessments far more quickly than they are, given that we were told that they can only do one or two major ones every 18 months?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022755f86eb82984a73b083a2a801ccbc86\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022755f86eb82984a73b083a2a801ccbc86\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E We have changed the law to enable them to have regard to information and decisions from trusted overseas regulators, which will assist in that process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002266a49e7c0e3e41f4a4ac1472794c1519\u0022\u003ELocal Government\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022f89b085d529a45dc8af19b579cb68a50\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f89b085d529a45dc8af19b579cb68a50\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, our time now with the Minister for the Environment has ended. We now have the Minister of Local Government who is available for 45 minutes to respond to Minister\u2019s questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022a45583d7c1f047b48626e1a1435478f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a45583d7c1f047b48626e1a1435478f2\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE (Chairperson of the Governance and Administration Committee):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you. It\u2019s a pleasure to take a short call as the chairman of the Governance and Administration Committee, which, of course, deals with local government and almost all of the Minister\u2019s other interests as well, including his racing interests\u2014and there are, of course, races in the Far North today!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d0689467bb94d0ab614da2abc8658aa\u0022\u003ET\u0101mati Coffey\u003C/span\u003E: Who\u2019s your pick?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3fcbddce02f43e3bc0afebf32db6daf\u0022\u003EIAN McKELVIE\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s all over\u2014it\u2019s all over.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EBut I just want to very briefly talk about local government. Of course, in my 20 years in local government and central government, the relationship between Parliament and local government is somewhat fraught at times and somewhat tense. When you see the workload that local government\u2019s under at the moment, and the reports that we have received as a select committee on some of these issues, it\u2019s very significant. Of course, we\u2019ve got the three waters programme going at the moment, and the Minister\u2019s budgeted, I think, some $200 million - odd in this respect, but, interestingly, the budget that\u2019s been allocated to some of the projects that are applicable to local government is well in excess of $2 billion. So it\u2019s a very large funding area for the Government of the day this one, right across the spectrum because there\u2019s also a whole lot of work going on in the post-structural reform. One of the interesting things for the select committee was the very large amounts of money spent on promoting some of these spends, including the three waters programme, and, I guess, trying to ensure people understood the potential for alteration in the local government area and the changes of the structure, I suppose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003ESo one of the things that interested us with respect to the service performance around the three waters programme was the establishment of the new water regulator in Taumata Arowai, and, of course, that was an essential part of the whole structure of the three waters programme\u2014or what\u2019s now whatever; it\u2019s got a new name now, doesn\u2019t it? I guess we\u2019ll get another one before it\u2019s finished. But the interesting thing about that was that the regulator is a really solid\u2014we agree with the formal regulator and I think it\u2019s very positive for the water management in New Zealand, and certainly, in the days before the regulator, the Ministry of Health handled this, and it certainly wasn\u2019t particularly well handled. So I think that\u2019s really interesting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI talked very briefly about the better-off support funding\u2014$2.5 billion which has been allocated, effectively, to local government\u2014I was going to say to do with likes, but not quite\u2014to manage its way through the programme with respect to the three waters implementation. It will be interesting to see where that gets to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve talked very briefly about the review into the future of local government. There have been reviews going into the future of local government for all of my life, and I suppose there will be for many years to come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EThe other issue that we\u2019ve dealt with as well\u2014at least with two bills\u2014is improving M\u0101ori representation in local government. I think we worked our way through some interesting issues in that respect. I think it\u2019s resolved itself reasonably satisfactorily.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003EThe other issue I just, very briefly, want to raise with respect to the Minister, of course, is that we\u2019ve done a lot of work with respect to the cyclone recovery programme, and two bills have gone through recently. I realise I\u2019m not part of this\u2014but recently those two bills have gone through at select committee with respect to that, and, of course, the Minister now has responsibility for that as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6c42c44-3622-4c9c-98b8-793fb5ec15cc\u0022\u003ESo, I think, from the Governance and Administration Committee, we had a really interesting time. I\u2019m going to leave the rest of our comments to my spokesperson. But that\u2019s about all I need to say on this topic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc6371b3260c4693920b554af702e11c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc6371b3260c4693920b554af702e11c\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you very much, Madam Chair. I acknowledge the Minister in the chair. I also acknowledge the work that the Minister of Local Government has undertaken in regards to supporting our communities, as a result of the disasters that we have faced since the beginning of this year, and I know that that work has been considered. I also acknowledge the promotion to acting Hawke\u2019s Bay lead Minister for Cyclone Recovery, following the exit stage right\u2014or maybe stage left\u2014of Meka Whaitiri today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EMinister, I want to talk around three waters, firstly, because I think that is, as you know, probably one of the most significant reform aspects that your portfolio has been covering of date. My questions are as following\u2014and I\u2019ve got a number of series of questions; I\u2019ll just fire those through, and I appreciate if we can engage in some back and forth in terms of those questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EMy first question is in regards to the time line and expectations by you around when you expect that that legislation that will be required in order to enact your reset of three waters will be tabled in the House. You\u2019ve previously stated that the law will be in place before the election, and, obviously, that\u2019s less than six months away. So what I am seeking your confirmation on is: is that actually that that bill won\u2019t receive the full six-month select committee consideration? If that is the case, I\u2019m, then, seeking your overview in terms of how you justify that that reduced period of select committee consideration is appropriate, considering what is, fair to say, a critical opportunity for the public to have that say in regards to changing that legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI think what\u2019s also relevant in regards to that process around the new legislation is that we know the debacle that we went through in regards to the process of trying to ram through the three waters legislation previously, and the public pressure and the constitutional crisis around the enactment provisions. So, again, the use of urgency for such legislation passing would be useful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe second element of questioning is in regards to the councils\u2019 support for your new reset three waters proposal. I\u2019d be interested to know if you\u2019ve got any councils that now support the proposal that previously opposed it. Quite simply, if you could just name one single council, that would be appreciated, and, if not, any reasons on why you don\u2019t believe that has changed the view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u002202c24e7a82594293ade1657506ddbf9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202c24e7a82594293ade1657506ddbf9a\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much. We stand by the commitment that we made to complete this by the election. However, the specific details that the member\u2019s asking for is yet to be decided by Cabinet. So I can reiterate our commitment to get it done by the election, but I can\u2019t actually answer those questions yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIn regards to councils that have previously not supported the reform as proposed, but subsequent to changes have now supported, you can count the Hawke\u2019s Bay region and Tair\u0101whiti region as examples, and there are many others around the country, also.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00220a2f64d266e04bd3bdc12fedc76e830e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a2f64d266e04bd3bdc12fedc76e830e\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m interested in what\u2019s happening with three waters. We\u2019ve heard that, instead of four water services entities, there are going to be 10, but the bills that are currently before the Finance and Expenditure Committee, we\u2019ve been told, are not likely to be amended; there will have to be more legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EMinister, we\u2019ve heard time and again from this Government\u2014from your predecessor, the Hon Nanaia Mahuta\u2014that three waters reform is absolutely vital because people\u2019s health depends on it, the health of the environment depends on it, and yet, Minister, you\u2019ve announced a delay of potentially two years at least, and a whole lot more cost and a whole lot more wheelspinning before local government\u2019s assets will be transferred to one of the entities, before those entities will have a good look under the hood and actually get on with the business of programming, designing, and delivering infrastructure upgrades to their communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EIn those additional two years, between the initial implementation date of 2024 and 2026, what\u2019s going to happen in places like Te Atat\u016B, in Auckland, where I live, where tens of thousands of people have moved into new homes as a result of intensification, and the waste-water system is regularly blowing raw sewage into Te Wai o Pareira Henderson Creek right next to the boat ramp where the Waka Ama club, the multisport club, the rowing club, and the sailing club all launch from\u2014a new pontoon, new clubrooms, and sewage overflowing on a regular basis, maybe 20 or 30 times in the last year? So, Minister, how is delaying the reform programme going to help solve that problem? Or would it be more practical to adopt a much simpler approach, to say, look, put three waters aside? Maybe just park the legislation in the bottom drawer of your desk and actually give councils the mandate, a carrot and a stick, to get on with meeting their infrastructure requirements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThe problem that keeps coming up is the funding. We\u2019ve heard that, in order to get more money for three waters, these entities are going to need to achieve balance sheet separation. Is the Minister aware there are other ways to achieve balance sheet separation from councils\u2019 books, such as standing up a special purpose vehicle under the Infrastructure Funding and Financing Act? That\u2019s a proposal to upgrade the Moa Point sewage treatment plant in Wellington, which is off the books\u2014doesn\u2019t affect the council\u2019s balance sheet. Is the Minister aware of the concept called a \u201Crevenue bond\u201D, where, for example, if stormwater needs to be upgraded, like in Auckland, a special rate can be applied to properties and the revenue raised from that rate can be used to fund a piece of infrastructure and repay the debt associated with that infrastructure over time? There are many ways to achieve balance sheet separation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ESo I just want to ask the Minister a specific question: in response to a written question, the Minister has replied that there are other factors that would allow councils to achieve balance sheet separation, in addition to having 50:50 mana whenua co-governance on the three water services entities\u2019 regional representative groups. Minister, would you tell the committee what those other factors are that would allow for balance sheet separation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00225d2d6a9275084327a44d3aacafab4433\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d2d6a9275084327a44d3aacafab4433\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I disagree with the member Simon Court\u2019s assessment as to those two proposals meeting balance sheet separation, because there\u2019s one critical element to this: in both of those proposals, the councils would retain direct control of water services. And at the essence of this is that, as long as direct control is maintained, balance sheet separation cannot be achieved. We\u2019ve seen examples of council-controlled organisations, we\u2019ve seen examples of shared services, and neither of those has achieved balance sheet separation. The two examples that the member has provided will not achieve balance sheet separation, nor will they be able to achieve the scale of borrowing that is required. I recognise that the ACT Party, in fairness to them, have a policy on this. Their policy is to share the GST with those councils. That\u2019s expected to raise $1 billion a year. This is a $185 billion problem. It\u2019s going to take a long time to pay the bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIn specific reference to the query around the two-year delay, that was as a response to feedback from the sector for some councils that needed more time to be prepared to move into an entity; however, what we\u2019ve made clear is that, if entities are ready to go, they can do so earlier. There is no barrier to stop them doing so. Entity A, which the member referenced, is an example of one that may be able to go earlier because, despite the changes in the reform, their proposed entity remains the same.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIn regards to the other factors that allow for balance sheet separation, it is a case of ensuring that there is no direct control from one particular council within the entity, and that\u2019s where the make-up of the regional representative group comes in. The feedback that we got from the rating agencies was that, in making it clear that it wasn\u2019t just local government that were having a say in this, we were able to achieve balance sheet separation. This is particularly the case for the smaller entities like the top of the South and Taranaki.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002284fe748a126741208ef03b115a57fbc3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284fe748a126741208ef03b115a57fbc3\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Minister, you\u2019ve quoted a number of total estimated savings in regards to what you believe will be delivered under your reset of three waters, and my question is in regards to the underlying supporting models, assumptions\u2014and also copies of the peer review analysis that you cited has been undertaken on those savings. My question is: will you be willing to table that underlying information that substantiates the savings numbers that you have spoken about in the public domain right now, and if not, why not? Because the challenge that I have in regards to this is when this question has been asked, in regards to the release of this information, to date, that has been blocked. And so why I believe that that is an issue\u2014and why I\u2019m seeking the opportunity to be able to table that information right now\u2014is, you know, what is the basis for withholding the information that, in effect, substantiates the significant savings that you talk about in the public domain in regards to your reform? What is the basis on why that information is being withheld to date, and does the Minister have concerns in regards to those new numbers, or if not, what is the justification around why that information hasn\u2019t been released?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn regards to that specific modelling information, I\u2019d also like the Minister to clarify\u2014and it\u2019s pretty fundamental in regards to the overall debt position\u2014the Minister just quoted a number of $185 billion. You know, we\u2019re not going to get into the tit-for-tat politics around whether that number is mythical or real\u2014I have a clear position on one aspect of that. But in regards to the way in which the modelling of the savings that the Minister has used in the public domain to date, has the Minister calculated the repayment of principal of the debt that these new 10 entities are going to borrow, or simply just the interest-only component on that debt? Because that is quite a significant difference in regards to the element that would be repaid; it has quite a significant difference in regards to the modelling of the savings that has been put out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe other aspect in regards to the savings is that the Scottish water analysis; the Water Industry Commission of Scotland analysis used to sell the four-entity model by his predecessor. The Minister, before the reset, said that some communities\u2014including Napier and Nelson\u2014would be worse off versus the status quo than under an eight- or a 12-entity model. And on that basis, then, you know, the 10-entity model would indicate that those communities, Nelson and Napier in particular, would be worse off. I\u2019d be interested in the Minister\u2019s perspective around whether that is the case\u2014or, if not, what his position is in regards to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00227883e417d6bb45a79be088ddcaf18ad7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227883e417d6bb45a79be088ddcaf18ad7\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E No, that is not the case; that is incorrect. Every single ratepayer that accesses council-provided water services will save money as a result of our reforms. The modelling is already available on the website, so too is the peer-reviewed report. There is updated modelling which will be released shortly. That is the right thing to do, particularly when you are considering something so fundamental as significant costs facing ratepayers. I invite the member to do the same for his policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9c8cb2c128a4c1d842c4ce1279f712e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9c8cb2c128a4c1d842c4ce1279f712e\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Is the Minister aware that PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC) states that special purpose vehicles are intended to hold assets off the balance sheet of an entity\u2014balance sheet separation\u2014and that existing legislation, the Infrastructure Funding and Financing Act, already allows for special purpose vehicles to hold assets, to raise the funds to establish a financing model, which includes a revenue model which could be sending people a water bill or, with their local council, establishing a bylaw to apply targeted rates on property, say, to pay for stormwater infrastructure upgrades like they do in Auckland, and that these are all off-balance-sheet facilities? And does the Minister accept it\u2019s possible to achieve balance sheet separation to access debt at reasonable rates, to increase the pool of funds available for infrastructure without having to go through all of the machinations and subject New Zealand to the most complex form of governance involving 50:50 mana whenua allocation of seats on regional representative groups, creating two levels of governance. None of this is necessary, Minister. Do you accept what PwC say\u2014a special purpose vehicle creates an off-balance-sheet way of funding and financing infrastructure, and that none of this is necessary, Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc63129eefcc461f9a35831403ebf880\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc63129eefcc461f9a35831403ebf880\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. A special purpose vehicle will still be seen as part of the council\u2019s balance sheet. It may be separate to the council, just like a council-controlled organisation (CCO), but it\u2019s still attached to the council\u2019s balance sheet. And the issue here is that ratepayers cannot afford to pay for the work that is required if they do so through each individual council. They can\u2019t afford to do it if councils band together with a CCO; we\u2019ve seen that in the Wellington region already. And they can\u2019t do it if they share services because the scale of the costs that is required to be covered cannot be met alone. There are many creative ways in which you can raise funds for this, but it comes down to the cost, and, individually, in the status quo, we have 67 councils who are either at their debt cap already, or if they are not their community can\u2019t afford to pay higher rates. Whether they raise the funds on their current balance sheet or through a separate mechanism, if they\u2019re doing it by themselves or doing it without achieving overall balance sheet separation, it will be unaffordable for ratepayers. We\u2019re fronting up to this. That is a fact. We can\u2019t get around it. A voluntary CCO proposal will not work; nor will a special purpose vehicle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002218de6c286cee42daa32f96a1c7a785f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218de6c286cee42daa32f96a1c7a785f7\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Minister, I want to get into some of the details. You\u2019ve just talked about costs, and I won\u2019t disagree with you that there are considerable costs in regards to the reform programme that you\u2019ve undertaken. But in particular, the one area that is of interest is in regards to the information services technology (IST) or technology costs in the background in terms of reforming the IT systems across the network into the new entities, and you\u2019ll be familiar that I\u2019ve asked you on a number of occasions through written parliamentary questions, and I\u2019ve also requested information from the Department of Internal Affairs over the IST costs for the three waters programme through Official Information Act requests. All access to information has been blocked to date in regards to requests for transparency of that information and the scale of information, and my question is quite simple: how much has the Government spent on IST transitioning for three waters? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIf you\u2019re not willing to articulate how much, then I want to understand what is the reason for withholding this information, because it was nearly a year ago when officials indicated that the quantum of that expenditure could be in the region of half a billion dollars, proceeding up to exceed over a billion dollars. This is significant taxpayer money that potentially is being spent or incurred, and no one\u2014you know, we\u2019re not arguing around the justification, but actually the transparency around the scale of expenditure is significant and is of public interest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI\u2019m also interested in regards to whether the contract for the new IST systems that will support the new 10 entities has been given yet, and whether the Minister will confirm to the committee that any contracts in this space will be subject to an appropriate open and transparent tendering and procurement process. That assurance is important because of the scale of potential spend in this area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4436ad4363e491ba54be391e306e844\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4436ad4363e491ba54be391e306e844\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I thank the member for the question. It\u2019s my intention to proactively release that information once commercial negotiations are complete. So as soon as that\u2019s done, we\u2019ll be getting that out. To the member\u2019s previous question\u2014which I didn\u2019t answer before because we were looking for the details\u2014yes, we have calculated principal and interest, and it does not change our results. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022255d13974947442e9831ba544d6865a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022255d13974947442e9831ba544d6865a6\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Minister, for coming back on those questions. I want to turn to the aspect within the legislation of the Water Services Entities Act, and particularly around the Te Mana o te Wai statements, which are prescribed in the legislation in Part 4 of that Act. My question is in regards to, in particular, the Te Mana o te Wai statements and what, if any, changes will be made as a result of the announced reset of this legislation. I think it would be fair to say that many New Zealanders out there probably don\u2019t necessarily understand much about what these Te Mana o te Wai statements do, or ignore the scope of these services. But in simple effect, these statements, basically, apply to all aspects of land, and, as it\u2019s currently drafted within that legislation, the only party that can have input into that statement is M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EAnd you will recall in the committee of the whole stage of that bill that I actually put a Supplementary Order Paper up in regards to broadening out the people or the individuals that could input into those statements, because they affect aspects of all land, including private property, that they should not be simply restricted to one group. So the question is: what are the changes in regards to that? Will you assure and commit to New Zealanders that all relevant stakeholders, including private property owners and industry users, can submit on these statements? And what will you do to ensure that there is no disproportionate influences due to the Te Mana o te Wai statements? Because it is fair to say that there is a degree of concern out there in regards to the way in which these are currently drafted in regards to constitutional arrangements. The fact that only M\u0101ori are able to write Te Mana o te Wai statements is not even co-governance\u2014it is beyond that. So that assurance in regards to those statements would be appreciated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab902dfc508c485d947a8ab5616ed64c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab902dfc508c485d947a8ab5616ed64c\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. So I\u2019ve already made an assurance publicly that we\u2019re going to make some changes. And to sit alongside Te Mana o te Wai statements will be priority statements from recognised users within a catchment. They might be a rural catchment group, for example. It\u2019s really important that their priorities go to the regional representative group so that the broader strategy, the broader priorities of the regions within the entities, take it into consideration when the independently operational decisions are made by the board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00224f4007779bfa4924b532ec6f821a268f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f4007779bfa4924b532ec6f821a268f\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Does the Minister agree with the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development, which states on its website, \u201CThe Infrastructure Funding and Financing Act enables infrastructure projects to be delivered free of local authorities\u2019 financing constraints or from charging high upfront costs to developers.\u201D The new model\u2014which this Labour Government passed into law\u2014enables special purpose vehicles to fund infrastructure projects that support housing and urban development that are free of local government funding constraints. Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00220c50d58b13d5467d9623d71a0ee551b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c50d58b13d5467d9623d71a0ee551b5\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. And I appreciate the Minister\u2014I don\u2019t think the Minister answered my question. It was quite simple and I\u2019ll ask him to clarify. Are the changes that are proposed in regards to the changes that are on the table, will that mean that all relevant stakeholders, including private property owners and industry users, can submit an input into the Te Mana o te Wai statements? Because what the Minister said in response to the question was that there was going to be another process. So I want clear assurance that actually all stakeholders will be able to write Te Mana o te Wai statements, because if that is not the case, then it is the fact that only M\u0101ori will be able to write these statements, and these statements impact all aspects of land and water across this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00227747d3f1e8b44cde984e9156b4283e79\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227747d3f1e8b44cde984e9156b4283e79\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. And thank you to the member\u2014it\u2019s a fair enough question. I was being really deliberate with my language because this is a decision for Cabinet. So I\u2019ve indicated that it\u2019s my intention for other users to be able to submit their priorities, in terms of water services, to the regional representative group, but I don\u2019t want to go beyond that. So I want to make sure that users within each district\u2014within each entity\u2014are able to submit their priorities for the consideration of the regional representative group. That\u2019s all I can say at the moment, I\u2019m afraid.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIn regard to Simon Court\u2019s comments: yes, I\u2019m aware that special purpose vehicles have a role to play, but that wasn\u2019t the question that I addressed. The question was around balance sheet separation, which I did indeed answer. The member is incorrect, in my view, that a special purpose vehicle will solve the issue of up to $185 billion facing this country, which, without full overall balance sheet separation, would fall to ratepayers at a cost that they simply couldn\u2019t afford. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc127895697c4d33b66bc3266fb17433\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc127895697c4d33b66bc3266fb17433\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Minister, for clarifying that point. I want to move over to talk about consultancy expenditure with regards to the three waters transition programme. When I questioned you on this in the House before the recess, you noted in one of your answers that you had written to the Department of Internal Affairs (DIA) about consultant spending. Given the expenditure since, would it be fair to say that the DIA Minister has ignored that letter that you have sent to them? Or, if not, what is your view in regards to that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ECan you also outline what is the total year-to-date expenditure on the three waters transition programme, and how much of that money or expenditure has been spent on consultants? In regards to the consultancy spend, the previous questions that I\u2019ve asked you were in regards to concerns around the type of consultants that were being paid for by taxpayer money as part of this programme. I want to understand whether you\u2019ve got any update in regards to how much of that consultancy spend is spent on day-to-day positions. What I mean by that is non-technical positions; roles that could and should, by any reasonable person, be appointed and recruited within the public sector and not through the use of consultants\u2014executive assistants, personal assistants, analysts, junior roles such as that, that should and could be funded by our Public Service, which has the capability and competence and are the appropriate ones to undertake that task.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI also want to get an understanding in terms of what the costs are or whether the Minister is aware of what the costs are of actually undertaking this reset of the three waters programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u002240e6357781bd40dfb3cd29c551d08dba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240e6357781bd40dfb3cd29c551d08dba\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019ve tried to be as forthcoming as possible with the wide range in questions. However, when it comes to finances and expenditure in an annual review debate, I prepared for the period which the annual review has covered, so I don\u2019t have those figures. I can give you the figures for the relevant period to this debate, 2021-22, and that is total departmental expenditure of $34 million, of which $3.3 million were for contractors. But in terms of the other questions, I didn\u2019t prepare for that, because, in my view, that\u2019s out of the scope of the focus of the review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002220c6a046c4334e32b3b4aecf1a9cb4e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220c6a046c4334e32b3b4aecf1a9cb4e4\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Look, I acknowledge that, Minister, in terms of the review under period. But I think it wouldn\u2019t be unreasonable for you to be able to articulate, in terms of what are your expectations around the expenditure of consultancy spent and whether you deem it appropriate that taxpayer money is being spent on high-priced consultants undertaking tasks which should\u2014could\u2014be undertaken by our public servants and not undertaken by high-priced consultants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022e15b153bf8974f3bac07416b605e2f21\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e15b153bf8974f3bac07416b605e2f21\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Before the Minister answers, I do want to say that the annual review looks backwards at the last financial year. The kinds of questions that you would like more details on is what we will do soon, which is the Estimates hearing. But I will hand over to the Minister the Hon Kieran McAnulty for any comments he might like to add.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00222879822ddb7845d081d82f72cabd4858\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222879822ddb7845d081d82f72cabd4858\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Don\u2019t want to open up the scope too much, Madam Chair, I might comment about all sorts of things! Specifically, in general, I agree, of course. Generally speaking, where people should be employed with permanent jobs with good conditions and good wages\u2014absolutely; that should always be the preference. But when you\u2019re talking about reforms that require specific skills, then sometimes you\u2019re going to have to rely on the expertise and contributions of consultants. This is not new. The previous National Government did exactly the same thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00227ef4d637984c4cb283fead8349d05f0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ef4d637984c4cb283fead8349d05f0d\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Minister. I was recently in Westport on the West Coast, only last week, and I know that the Minister has visited that location. I\u2019m wanting the Minister to outline, in terms of any update or progress in regards to providing certainty to that community. As you\u2019ll be aware, it was over a year ago when significant flooding impacted that part of the world, and the implications of that flooding have placed considerable uncertainty on that community. Can you give us any indication, in terms of time line, of when you believe you are going to be able to provide certainty in regards to that community, so that they can move forward in what they do in regards to potential relocation of some of the homes within that flood plain and any other aspects in regards to that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EMy other question is in regards to the future of local government review. As the Minister will be aware, we\u2019ve seen one report out during the period under review. I\u2019d be interested in what action or anything the Minister foresees will be undertaken in regards to that review. What can we expect in regards to subsequent outcomes from that review, and does the Minister have intent in regards to implementing any of the draft recommendations that we\u2019ve seen to date?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022b32346a812994455be67e674ba2491ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b32346a812994455be67e674ba2491ce\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E In regards to Buller, I\u2019ll just repeat the statements that we\u2019ve made publicly. This is a matter that\u2019s included as part of the Budget process, so this is a message that I\u2019ve shared with local elected representatives in that area, ably served by their mayor and their member of Parliament, Damien O\u2019Connor. They know that we can\u2019t confirm either way until the Budget process finishes, and they accept that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIn regards to the future of local government review, there\u2019s no doubt that this review is timely and was actually requested by the sector. Now it\u2019s just a matter of timing. So the draft report came out, and there was a real emphasis on it being a draft report. They indicated that the final report would be coming out shortly, and I understand that it is on track to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EBut then we have a period where there isn\u2019t much time between the report coming out and the election. So the Government will acknowledge the report and welcome the feedback from the sector, but unless there is something that is straightforward and non-controversial and would have the support of other parties, I don\u2019t anticipate that anything would be pursued between now and the election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022cdde59aafb4b4c6eb6c148af11ae732e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cdde59aafb4b4c6eb6c148af11ae732e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I make the next call, I just wanted to let all members in the Chamber know, in case you want to ask the Minister of Local Government any questions, we have about seven minutes, if there is anyone else other than the two members who have been asking most questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00226fbc547c2b834cdf862020974fe26cac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226fbc547c2b834cdf862020974fe26cac\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I appreciate the Minister\u2019s indulgence, in regards to these questions. My question relates now in regards to workforce. As the Minister will be aware, one of the most significant issues that local government across this country is facing is the constraints around the ability to get workforce to undertake the tasks which are critical to our communities. The fact that a number of their workforce through the period under review have left or resigned and moved to other aspects of the government sector\u2014in particular, central government. What plans, if any, does the Minister have to address what is probably one of the most significant aspects impacting local government, over and above funding and financing, which is the ability to retain and enhance the workforce that support our local government sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe sector, obviously, is under significant pressure due to the scale of reform and change that\u2019s under way, but also, as we\u2019re all acutely aware, from the implications of and the role in which they play in regards to civil defence and disaster response within their communities. The capability of some of these roles that are impacted as a result of uncertainty in regards to reform and other pressures that are out there does mean that when faced with the significant challenges that many of our communities have faced, not having that workforce in place does put significant burden on the others within those teams. Many of those teams are highly skilled, but they are dispersed in terms of the geographical location. So I\u2019m interested, in terms of the Minister\u2019s perspective, in what action he is taking in regards to that significant issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce00214fced94552830b8af8a7aba8ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce00214fced94552830b8af8a7aba8ba\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I actually acknowledge the concerns that the member\u2019s raised, because I share them. I used to work in the local government sector before I came to Parliament, and I know full well how committed and hard-working they all are. I also know the strain that the sector is under because they simply can\u2019t match the wages and conditions that are on offer elsewhere. Why? Because they are constrained by their level of revenue. At the moment, for the majority of councils, all they get is rates, and that can only go so far. So it is a massive issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI am reluctant, however, to share my thoughts, because it\u2019s already been indicated that the future of local government review is going to look at this. It\u2019s an independent review, and right throughout my tour of all the councils and engagement with sector groups and regional groups, I\u2019ve always said this when asked about it: I don\u2019t ever want to be accused of trying to steer the review in a particular way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI can assure the member that there isn\u2019t any work under way in this regard, because we\u2019re waiting for the outcomes. My views, at the moment, will stay with me until we get the review\u2019s recommendations, and then we can have a conversation. What I am willing to do is acknowledge that this is a major issue. It is driven in part because of the level of reform, but it\u2019s mainly because of the constraints that councils find themselves under when they are limited, on the whole, solely to rates for their revenue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbe7d732a3f64944b387010fccba1adf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbe7d732a3f64944b387010fccba1adf\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Look, I acknowledge that response. The Minister will be aware, as I am, that one of the significant drivers of demand for these resources is actually central government. Central government agencies are actually\u2014and this is what councils tell me across the country\u2014poaching local government staff and paying them, in some cases, 30 or 40 percent more in regards to salaries than what they are receiving through the local government sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo my question is quite simple. I acknowledge there is a review. But the challenge for our councils and our communities is a challenge that they face today. For many of them, they don\u2019t have time to be able to wait for a review which may or may not provide recommendations, of which the Government then may or may not implement. The challenge exists today, and the challenge, in part; not all\u2014I acknowledge that not all of that is driven by central government, but the feedback that I am getting is that a large portion of it is driven by some of the biggest central government entities based here in Wellington.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll give you an example. I was talking to some staff in Invercargill. They had lost one of their staff members, a technical skillset, by a large Government agency here in Wellington; a 30 percent pay rise, and the central government agency here in Wellington\u2014very close, maybe within a couple of hundred metres of where I\u2019m standing right now, so I won\u2019t give you any more clues\u2014said, guess what, you can work from home as well. So you can work from home from Invercargill, and we\u2019re going to pay you 40 percent more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo what is the Minister doing in regards to correspondence with his colleagues in regards to dealing with what is a real issue impacting our local government sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u002256cc27e88f3d4d8296c7c6fa5e7b7046\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002256cc27e88f3d4d8296c7c6fa5e7b7046\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I acknowledge that this is an issue for the sector, but I think that we really need to be careful with our language. Workers are not commodities. They\u2019re not being stolen. Workers are making the choice to go to another employer because that employer is offering better wages and conditions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThe point is that councils can\u2019t compete, because they are constrained by rates. It\u2019s not that other employers are stealing them, because the converse of that argument is that if we constrain wage rises, that will solve the problem. That\u2019s not the solution. The solution is finding a long-term sustainable funding stream for councils so that they can compete with better wages and better conditions and attract their staff that way, rather than trying to constrain higher wages elsewhere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba80c9bb876d4c3e8d26fb02db3b6f5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba80c9bb876d4c3e8d26fb02db3b6f5c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: We have half a minute left. I call on Simon Watts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00223c8b842f92a54d2d8511750772ade82b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c8b842f92a54d2d8511750772ade82b\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Does the Minister actually acknowledge that there is a problem, that central government agencies are offering on like-for-like roles significantly more than what those individuals are receiving in local government, and that is creating a significant imbalance within our local government and central government sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u002210226ebfb85f4302b610b03de818999d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210226ebfb85f4302b610b03de818999d\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E This is the third time that I\u2019ve acknowledged this is an issue facing the sector. I think it\u2019s politics at play saying that this is central government, because it\u2019s the private sector that are attracting these workers as well. The point of the matter is that the councils as a sector can\u2019t compete, because they\u2019re constrained by wages. Central government is competing with the private sector, with wages to retain and attract staff. We want to be able to make sure the local government sector can compete on the same playing field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002203bb0a2240d24d588ae88e2986c886b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002203bb0a2240d24d588ae88e2986c886b9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, our time with the Minister of Local Government has come to an end. We now have the Minister of Immigration who is available for 45 minutes to respond to members\u2019 questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229453b069d8b24519af5cd9320659c971\u0022\u003EImmigration\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022 data-id=\u002278edc0a6be9e49ccb5a04f924a52c080\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002278edc0a6be9e49ccb5a04f924a52c080\u0022\u003EIBRAHIM OMER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m here as the deputy chairperson of the Education and Workforce Committee, in the absence of our chair, Camilla Belich, who is away on a work trip. I am here to talk about the briefing on the 2021-22 performance and the current operations of Immigration New Zealand. I\u2019d like to start with thanking the staff and clerks who put in endless amounts of hours preparing this report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EThe Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee conducts an annual review of the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE); however, the Education and Workforce Committee is responsible for immigration subject matter. We believe that Immigration New Zealand\u2019s work is sufficiently important that it merits specific scrutiny, so we initiated this briefing and conducted this briefing as if it were an annual review. We received advice from the Office of the Auditor-General, held the hearing, and sent the questions for written response. We also heard from the Minister of Immigration himself, the Hon Michael Wood; MBIE\u2019s chief executive; the Deputy Secretary of Immigration; and the General Manager of Employment, Skills, and Immigration Policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EThe primary focus in the major team of the Minister and MBIE over the period in question is supporting the New Zealand\u2019s reconnection with the world after years of border closure and disconnection. We asked the Minister and MBIE about the following: amnesty for overstayers, standards of health, visa wait times, pathways to residency, refugee resettlement, case review on asylum seekers, and the 2022 Special Ukraine Policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e419a18-df21-483e-9650-2aaee4e06211\u0022\u003EThe Minister noted the extension and the opening of visa types, and he acknowledged the challenges of transitioning from closed to open borders. One significant challenge seen in the report are wait times. An example: the skilled migrant category wait time is four years and two months, on average. MBIE acknowledged that this wait time reflected those applications that have been lodged before the closure in April 2020 due to the pandemic and our closed borders. The Minister also acknowledged that wait times have been a big focus for him and MBIE. More staff and streamlined processes has seen more visas being approved in late 2022 and early 2023, compared with late 2019 and early 2020. Roughly 140,000 people have gained residency through the 2021 Resident Visa, whereas 30,000 to 40,000 people gained residency in most of the previous years. The Minister has acknowledged that there are now more pathways for people to gain residency than previously, including the reopened skilled migrant category visa and the expanded Green List. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8ca88a502a644fdb1fc263341a71c90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8ca88a502a644fdb1fc263341a71c90\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, I know that late last year you were under an extraordinary amount of pressure because we needed workers in the country and the main way to get into the country under a work visa or The Accredited Employer Work Visa wasn\u2019t opened until mid-year, and then there was a very, very slow start to that while businesses become accredited and job checks got under way. At the very start, things were very, very slow. And I know that you were under an extreme amount of pressure to get things sped up and that seems to have happened, but my question to you today is have we gone from the sublime to the ridiculous?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EI want to ask you, firstly, a series of questions around the job check. Firstly, the first question is what is your understanding, Minister, of what happens in a job check\u2014what should happen for a job check in terms of Immigration New Zealand and what they do when they receive a job check? And my second question is how are they able to do all of that\u2014what your understanding is\u2014in three hours? Because that is the amount of time that many immigration agents and lawyers are saying that a job check can be approved in. So those two questions to start with. I don\u2019t want to give you too many to go on. If you could answer those straight away then I\u2019ll carry on with another one. If not, I\u2019ll keep going. No? All right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EGreat. It looks like the Minister\u2019s going to back up a number. With those job checks, Minister, I want to read you out an email that I got from an immigration agent, who says, \u201CThe labour market tests, are they being submitted and uploaded to Immigration New Zealand with job check applications? Is there a requirement to do this?\u201D She said to me, \u201Cbecause an example is, as to how we are working\u201D\u2014this is the immigration agent\u2014\u201Cto a higher standard than Immigration New Zealand for that labour market test, we ask our employers to complete a spreadsheet that gives us a breakdown of candidates for the jobs, insights into follow-ups, as well as reasons why no suitable Kiwis were available for that job. We do this for our integrity of the process, but we are never asked to upload it by Immigration New Zealand.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003ESo Immigration New Zealand are not uploading data as to how many Kiwis were available to do the job, whether or not there were any. They are just taking it on face value that the company is just doing that themselves and that they are checking that there were no Kiwis. It is a very, very high-trust model. Is that what the immigration Minister expects? Because what it used to be in the old days is that you would have to prove that there were no Kiwis available to do the job and you had to upload all the details of who applied and why they weren\u2019t suitable. Is it the Minister\u2019s expectation that that is still happening, or does he agree and understand that it\u2019s not happening? And, if that\u2019s the case, is he happy that that\u2019s not happening?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb4f40844c3b483fba6fd3352a69261e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb4f40844c3b483fba6fd3352a69261e\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E Can I acknowledge Ibrahim Omer, who presented the Education and Workforce Committee\u2019s report; the member Erica Stanford, who\u2019s just resumed her seat; and other members of the Education and Workforce Committee, who have completed the report that we are considering and whom I\u2019ve had a number of interactions with over the course of the year in question, with that being the 2021-22 year. I\u2019d just like to start with a few opening comments, and then I\u2019m happy to respond to a couple of the questions from the member. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThe 2021-22 year that is under consideration in this report was an utterly unprecedented year for the immigration system. This was, of course, the year in which we moved from having an immigration system in which our borders were primarily closed to a system in which our borders were progressively opened from about February-March of that year, and were finally opening in July, just at the very conclusion of the year in question. So it was a very challenging one for any immigration system to manage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EDespite the fact that for nearly\u2014or for all of that year, in fact, borders were either partially or completely closed, Immigration New Zealand (INZ) continued to carry a very significant workload and processed close to 100,000 border exemptions for critical roles that did need to come into New Zealand. So I want to acknowledge that for Immigration New Zealand, even though borders were closed, it wasn\u2019t as if the work stopped; in fact, in many respects things became more complicated for the organisation. But it was also in the back end of that 2021-22 year that preparations were being made for the reconnection\u2014that is, the reopening of the border\u2014there was the establishment of new processes, and, of course, they were also getting ready for the Government\u2019s immigration rebalance and the implementation of those settings. I know that for many people who have been engaged in the system, it has felt like there has been an awful lot of change over that period, and they are right in that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EI just wanted, for the benefit of the committee, to run through some of the key pieces of work that were worked through in this period under consideration of the 2021-22 year and then implemented more latterly. There was the establishment of the Accredited Employer Work Visa (AEWV) system, which is an entirely new main gateway for migrant workers to access temporary work visas in New Zealand, and the establishment of the Green List, a new simple and streamlined residency pathway to attract those people who are most in demand for skilled professions in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EWe got ready for and opened the skilled migrant category. It had been closed for the period of border closures. We established a number of sector agreements to enable particular sectors where there were skilled needs and particular needs in terms of requirements to get workers in here, and sometimes there were challenges to get the median wage requirement set up and then to move into action. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EWe reopened the parent category. It had been closed way back in 2016, and it had been one of the major requests of our migrant communities settled in New Zealand to enable there to be a process for families to reconnect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EWe made significant changes to a range of visa types, including the working holiday visa, where extensions were made during that period of border closures to enable people to stay on longer. Further extensions were made post - border opening, and also the capped schemes for particular countries were doubled for this period. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThe Resident Visa 2021 (RV21) pathway was established in this year of 2021-22. It has been an extraordinarily successful and vast operation. As we stand here today, approximately 180,000 people have been approved for residency under RV21 in about 15 months. In our system normally, it takes about five years for that number of residency applications to be approved, so it has provided significant certainty and stability for those people, their families, and, very often, their employers as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EWe reopened the Pacific and Samoan quotas, and, in fact, increased them to make up for some of the time that was lost during the period of border closures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EWe agreed to and are now implementing for the first time an increase to our annual refugee quota to 1,500 people, which has been a really outstanding outcome. We are proud of the contribution that our immigration policy makes to our humanitarian contributions to the global community, and that has been an important step forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EAt the same time, we\u2019ve doubled the number of places from 300 to 600 available for family reunification; we\u2019ve established the Ukraine temporary shelter policy, which has provided a pathway for around about 1,300 people to be approved to seek shelter in New Zealand; we\u2019ve established the significant Afghan evacuees category\u2014and I acknowledge the Hon Phil Twyford in the Chamber, who played a very significant role in the establishment of that policy\u2014we came to an arrangement with Australia to finally implement the Nauru arrangement, which is now coming into effect, with New Zealand being able to settle people from that very difficult set of circumstances; and it was in this 2021-22 year that the Government agreed to bring in new measures to support our ongoing efforts to stamp out migrant worker exploitation, with a number of those measures coming into effect from 1 July 2022. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003ESo it has been a huge year for the system, and really what I\u2019m conveying to the committee is that even as the borders were closing, there was a massive amount of work that was being done in the system to prepare for reconnection and to modernise our settings. There is much work ahead as well, and I\u2019m sure we\u2019ll cover some of that in the course of discussion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EI thank and acknowledge the member Erica Stanford for her acknowledgment that we have got to a point now where the processing of visas has significantly improved. That was something that we had always anticipated. It required work and it required additional resourcing, but we always anticipated that it would take a little bit of time for settings to bed in for both immigration officers and clients using the immigration system to get used to them, and, of course, for migrant workers to sort of get into the swing of applying, engaging, and then being prepared to come to New Zealand. But we are seeing a significantly improved processing time now. I thank the staff at INZ for their work on that, and I acknowledge the member for her acknowledgment of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThe member asked for an overview of what is expected at the job check stage of the Accredited Employer Work Visa. I\u2019ll take her through the four key steps here. Firstly, Immigration New Zealand will check evidence of advertising and confirm that sector employment agreements are in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003ESecondly, employers are required to make declarations that the roles that are being recruited for were made available to New Zealanders. That is an important step, and perhaps this goes to part of what the member was getting at. The AEWV is a system that does put a reasonable amount of trust on employers, but it is on them, and because it is a system that is based on accreditation\u2014that is a step before job check\u2014ultimately, if employers do not fulfil the obligations that are within it, they potentially lose the right and the ability to recruit migrant workers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThirdly, skill requirements for an AEWV, which are generally led by the employer, are assessed. Job checks ensure that a worker has a qualification and work experience, skills, and other specifications as listed by the employer as the minimum requirements for the job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EFourthly, the main areas of immigration risk being looked at at this stage include migrant exploitation, role and salary information, as well as whether there have been non-genuine job offers or advertising. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThese are the steps that we expect to be worked through by the immigration officer. I can\u2019t speak to every individual case, and we have instructed officers to take a positive and facilitative approach in working this through with employers, but we expect at this stage good standards to be upheld. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022b529cc3429c64769846251385399af98\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b529cc3429c64769846251385399af98\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. So I just wanted to traverse, I guess, the use of dawn raids and visits to people\u2019s homes, as advised by the Speaker to use this debate. So I wanted to get an understanding and comment from the Minister about the proportion of people from Asian countries that are being deported, because from the information we received, there seems to be\u2014from 2017 figures, the majority of overstayers seem to be from the Pacific, yet the majority of recent deportations actually are coming from mostly China and India. So I acknowledge that there was an apology for the Dawn Raids that seem to be a targeting of Pasifika communities. But it feels right now, if we look at the figures, that if we look at the proportion of overstayers and deportations, that there is a bit of a sort of greater ratio of people from India and China being deported, so I wanted to understand what was behind that ratio. Secondly, from figures provided, it\u2019s estimated there was around 1,000 under-age overstayers; around 100 of those are from the ages of zero to four. I guess I wanted to understand whether the Minister had received any advice, or whether he\u2019s got any comments around the welfare of those overstayers who are under-age, and what he thinks the impact that may be to have people who perhaps have no connections to their parents\u2019 homelands facing deportation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EMoving on to another topic, in the few minutes that I have left, I wanted to get an understanding of with, you know, in light of today\u2019s announcement on the boosting response to the Ukraine, whether he\u2019s receiving feedback from the Ukrainian community around the need to have pathways to residency; and, with the special policy for Ukrainians, yet having devastating conflict elsewhere in the world, whether he has considered implementing similar schemes for other countries as well during this time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EFinally, I wanted to get an understanding as to whether he had at any point actually sought advice around the number of people who may have missed out on the Resident Visa 2021 scheme. Particularly, I\u2019m thinking of those who went back to study and who now, under the new scheme, may face actually many years without potentially having a pathway to residency. So I wanted to get a sense of those people. And, actually, just while I\u2019ve still got a few seconds\u2014on the opportunity that he gave to post-study work visa holders to come back to the country, I wanted to get a sense of whether the Minister had also considered other types of visas that would have expired during the border closure, and to offer those people a chance to come back who may not necessarily have a straightforward path to come back on to other schemes? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f9bc8c9ba274bd1bd8d454a67496d99\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the Minister will come back after dinner. He has 25 more minutes, but the time has come for me to leave the Chair for the dinner break. We will resume the committee at 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u00220d533e98281e4feb802e040965f55fc7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d533e98281e4feb802e040965f55fc7\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E I thought I would just take the opportunity to quickly respond to a few of the questions asked by Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March just before the dinner break interrupted us. Specifically, he asked about some of the events of the last week, where it has been widely reported that an immigration operation arrived at a person\u2019s house pretty early in the morning to find that person and to proceed with a deportation process due to their status as being illegally within New Zealand. I won\u2019t go into the details of that particular case, as it is still being worked through and is subject to a request for intervention to the Associate Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EI just want to address the issues that the member raised. This remains a practice\u2014that is, out-of-hours visits to people who might be liable for deportation\u2014that is exercised on a very small number of occasions. A total of 3 percent of visits occur at what is called \u201Coutside of hours\u201D, at a time either earlier or later than, effectively, non-business hours. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003ESince this event and in recognition, in particular, of the Dawn Raids apology, I have written directly to Immigration New Zealand to set out my expectations and the Government\u2019s expectations, firstly that events such as this should only occur on extremely rare occasions where there is a strongly justified case based on, for example, it being the only safe way of conducting an operation. It is the job of Immigration New Zealand to enforce the law, and sometimes that does mean to find people and to start deportation proceedings. It is not a nice part of Immigration New Zealand\u2019s job, but it is a part of enforcing immigration laws that they are charged with. We want them to exercise that as reasonably and as proportionately as possibly, and, in this particular case, to give particular consideration to the traumatic history of the Dawn Raids for our Pacific communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003ESpecifically, as well, in order to give effect to that, I have acquired a deputy secretary, who is the head of Immigration New Zealand, effectively, as the person who will have to sign off any out-of-hours operations. So the Government has taken steps to make sure that, as I said before, the spirit and the intent of the Dawn Raids policy is given effect in respect of how Immigration New Zealand proceeds in this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThe member asked a question which is, effectively, to the extent of: is there a disproportionate focus on some communities when it comes to deportation operations? Based on the information that I have seen, that is not the case. Deportation activity occurs, broadly speaking, in proportion to the number of people from particular source countries who are illegally within New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThe member also asked about potential future residency pathways for people who have taken advantage of the Special Ukraine Policy, for which we have approved around about 1,300 people to arrive in New Zealand; around about 600 or so have arrived in New Zealand so far. We have undertaken, within the next period, probably the next few months, to commence work into what the future of that policy should be, given that, sadly, the conflict in Ukraine does continue due to Russia\u2019s brutal and unjustified invasion. I do believe it will be necessary to give consideration to future next steps, but we will just work through that process and we will consult with the effected communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EFinally, the member had a question around the Government\u2019s decision around the granting of an additional special one-year visa for people who lost their post-study work rights because they were, effectively, overseas at the time that the borders closed. The member, really, was asking: is the Government considering a similar provision for other people who might have been offshore at that time? The answer to that is no, and we have communicated that clearly to communities. We believe that there was a special place in respect of post-study work rights in that people had, effectively, come to New Zealand, had studied, and had\u2014to use a loose term\u2014earned the right to then have work rights at the end of that study, and it was particularly unfair that due to border closures, those people lost that opportunity. That distinguishes that category a little bit from other areas. I do note that in other areas, particularly when it comes to temporary work visas, all of our systems are now opening. There is a need for labour in New Zealand. I encourage people in those situations to consider applying under existing pathways.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4ebf4deae2b4949b77d1c703e02c29e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4ebf4deae2b4949b77d1c703e02c29e\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, I want to go back to the processing times. You noted that they had improved, and I guess the question is: at what cost? Because if you can get accredited in 90 minutes from putting your application in, what on earth are Immigration New Zealand doing in 90 minutes to check that you are a good enough character to be an accredited business? And what on earth are they doing in the three hours that it takes on occasion to approve a job check?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EMinister, I want to put it to you that this\u2014and I put it to you at the select committee as well when we had the briefing around the fact that this is now being exploited, because it very quickly has got around the world that we are a soft touch, and that there are migrants who know that they can buy their way into New Zealand, lie and cheat their way into New Zealand, because nobody at Immigration New Zealand is verifying their work history or their qualifications. That\u2019s why we get, yesterday, an article in Stuff that says it\u2019s easy to lie and cheat your way into New Zealand. And this is accurate, because this is what all of the immigration agents and immigration lawyers are now feeding back to us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EAnd I want to share with you, Minister\u2014because I want to ask you a question at the end of this\u2014an email that I got sent from an immigration officer after our exchange at the briefing. There are close to no checks being completed on these Accredited Employer Work Visa applications for the sake of numbers. There\u2019s constant talk of fraud where migrants are successfully getting visas with no work experience and then getting a variation of conditions to switch to another employer onshore. He said about the ESWV days\u2014the essential skills work visa days\u2014it was never this light touch despite what the officials said. We have one hand tied behind our backs and we can\u2019t do the checks that we need. That is from Immigration New Zealand. These articles are from case officers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EWe are getting ourselves into a situation, Minister, where an employer can put out a job advert for any job with no qualifications and no skill required, even if it is a skilled job, and no one at Immigration New Zealand is picking that up. There\u2019s no verification that\u2019s required, so when the migrant turns up, there\u2019s nothing to verify. And then they\u2019re getting a variation of conditions and entering New Zealand and switching job. We are setting ourselves up for a big problem down the track. Now, Minister, you talk very much about not wanting migrant exploitation. This is going to lead to more migrant exploitation with low-skilled people who are lying and cheating their way into the country because we are a soft touch, because no one at immigration is doing the right checks. There has to be a balance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EMinister, and I want to ask you this question: how do you think that a business that is accredited in 90 minutes is having correct and proper checks done on them? I have seen businesses with no website and no phone number being accredited. They are then able to employ people with no skills and no qualifications and no verification required. And, Minister, you have just put off their re-accreditation for another year. They now have two years before they have to become re-accredited. Guess what? Set up a shell company, bring in a whole lot of unskilled migrants, disappear, and set up another one. We are setting ourselves up for a massive problem down the track. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EMinister, I want you to tell me how we can properly accredit businesses in 90 minutes, how we can do proper job checks in three hours, and where is the balance, and are you concerned about articles like this and\u2014I forget the name\u2014Anu Kaloti, who heads up the migration group, saying that they are seeing more and more workers and visitors turn up in this country who are asking them for jobs and asking them for accommodation, and are we setting ourselves up for a massive problem down the track? Are you concerned about it? Are you worried about it? Because more and more people are talking about it. It\u2019s now in the media. And is there a better balance between what I think the Minister has done and just gone, \u201COh, we\u2019ll just trust businesses and not have any checks at immigration at all.\u201D, and allow people to do zero, zero\u2014no qualification and no skill\u2014applications? And nobody checks that. Is there more of a balance to be struck? Is he considering what that balance is? Where does it lie? And is he concerned about these articles that are now starting to pop up day after day about the fact that we are a soft touch, because the Minister was under so much pressure to get these applications done quickly?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u00225cadacd147664eb687b112acaa2615ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225cadacd147664eb687b112acaa2615ea\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E The member Erica Stanford has a talent for turning on a dime that is perhaps unparalleled in this House. The unrelenting criticism from that member up until a few weeks ago was that the immigration system was too slow and no amount of reasoned discussion about the things that Immigration New Zealand has to do within its processes would satisfy her, and now we have switched entirely and she is asking for exactly the opposite.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003ENow, I will address the member\u2019s questions. She is right that there is a balance to be struck here. She throws out some individual examples, and, as I indicated to her at the select committee, please forward those on and if those things are happening, they will be reviewed. The facts are that at the different stages of the Accredited Employer Work Visa, the median time for processing an employer accreditation is seven weekdays; the median time for processing a job check is four days. There may be some particularly good reasons why some take a shorter period of time. There may be some examples of practice that is not as good as it needs to be. Across a large system, that will sometimes occur. We need to know about it and deal with it, and we will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThe member points out examples of fraud and abuse of the system. We do not tolerate that, but the member shouldn\u2019t be wide-eyed about the fact that since Adam was a boy, people try on fraud and abuse of the system with our immigration systems\u2014they always have, and, regrettably, they always will. The purpose of our system is to make sure that doesn\u2019t happen. The key thing within the system, in addition to the checks that I outlined in my previous answers, is that the accreditation system means that when employers are checked, if there has been those abuses of the system that occur there, there is now a clear mechanism in place that they lose their accreditation, which means they lose the ability to be able to employ migrant workers\u2014and they should, if they have been abusing the system. That process is under way, with a particular focus on some of the higher-risk sectors, including franchisee and triangular employers. So we\u2019ll work diligently on that\u2014Immigration New Zealand will\u2014to make sure that standards are being upheld.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EThese risks have always been and will always be apparent across our immigration system and others. We have a system set up to put the onus on employers, as, frankly, this side of the House has asked us to do, to actually have some trust in employers, to work with them, but then to hold them accountable if there are breaches.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc0353ed748b4113b90b412ce1334deb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc0353ed748b4113b90b412ce1334deb\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just very briefly, one of the questions that I asked that wasn\u2019t addressed was around the estimates of under-age overstayers and whether the Minister would, for example, expect deportation of the estimated 100 overstayers aged zero to four, or whether he\u2019s received any advice or feedback around the welfare of those community members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe other one that I wanted to get some comments on was regarding the Special Ukraine Visa. As I\u2019ve expressed before, obviously our preference is that there are residency pathways, but I was also interested as to whether similar schemes have been thought of as part of a response to where there may be conflict elsewhere in the world. We\u2019ve got conflict in Sudan, for example, right now and the community is asking for some response. So I\u2019m just interested to understand whether at any point he\u2019s sought advice around other conflicts around the world where the community may be needing reunification pathways.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022 data-id=\u0022f87f7ff789c74dc2b1f73829d8cb9640\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f87f7ff789c74dc2b1f73829d8cb9640\u0022\u003EDr JAMES McDOWALL (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019ll just turn to the topic of visitor visas. It\u2019s obviously a good thing that we\u2019re at a point where numbers are on the rise, but I think we\u2019re also seeing the beginnings of a bit of a backlog in the processing of visitor visas. We\u2019ve long been aware that visitor visas will be ramping up. If we look at numbers still being processed, those on hand\u2014you know, starting with 775 in January\u2014the latest figure I have was a partial month for April, which is almost 8,000, so perhaps the beginnings, and we\u2019ve got 182 staff involved in processing visitor visa applications. In March alone, there were more than 42,000, so roughly about 230 per staff member, and we expect that to rise. That\u2019s a good thing; we want people to come to New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003EHowever, I\u2019d like to just get the focus on the 2023 FIFA Women\u2019s World Cup. I\u2019d like to ask the Minister: is he aware that over a third of the teams in the 2023 FIFA Women\u2019s World Cup represent non - visa waiver countries? And with 54 work days to go until the start of the competition, have would-be visitors, many of whom will require national security checks, now left it too late to apply, as could be interpreted on Immigration New Zealand\u2019s website where it suggested the end of April? And further to that, how can he be confident that Immigration New Zealand can stay on top of visitor visa applications in the lead up to this event, given that from January to March this year there has been, as one country example, a 176 percent increase in applications from Chinese nationals, who will require initial security checks? I\u2019d like an answer from the Minister on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022f431e32060ca4f0b8eeab244a87a3b41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f431e32060ca4f0b8eeab244a87a3b41\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Just while we\u2019re talking about visitor visas, I thought I\u2019ll throw in my questions as well. Last year it was reported, because of the 40,000 backlog in visitor visas, that Immigration New Zealand decided\u2014it was a leaked document that showed that they were to have a much more light touch when it comes to risk, reducing those risk factors, having a quick scan of documents. My question to the Minister is is this instruction still in place? Have we gone back to the old monitoring of risk when it comes to visitors, or are we still working under that instruction that came out late last year\u2014that leaked document that said that it will just be a light touch?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThe second question is has he seen\u2014well, the Minister at the time in the media said that he didn\u2019t think that our borders would be compromised because of that lowering of the risk factors. And I want to ask the Minister: has he seen any evidence of the fact that our borders have been compromised? If he has, what is that evidence and what is the prevalence of it? And just reminding him my first question is is that instruction still in place around reducing the risk factors and having a quick scan of documents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u0022de7c6dc5ce80467389e8e039b226fc6d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de7c6dc5ce80467389e8e039b226fc6d\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, I thank the members for their questions. Mr Men\u00E9ndez March\u2014his question around under age overstayers. Immigration New Zealand doesn\u2019t hold age data on hand about the age of people who might be overstaying and in New Zealand illegally. I do have concerns for the welfare and wellbeing of many of those people, particularly including children and young people. I do note that children are still able to attend school regardless of the regularity of their immigration status. As we have discussed previously, the Government is considering whether a regularisation initiative in this area is appropriate. That is something we are giving careful consideration to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EIn respect of his question about whether the Government is considering something like the Special Ukraine Visa for people in other conflict zones and areas of difficulty around the world, we\u2019re not currently considering any specific proposals. We have established a number of those in recent years, including for Ukraine and for Afghanistan, as quite bespoke processes dealing with particular situations in those places. We do continue to rely on our United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees quota as the main pathway for humanitarian resettlement in New Zealand, but we do give consideration, as I say on a bespoke basis, as to whether there are other cases. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EMr McDowall asked about visitor visas and the extent to which there might be a backlog building there again. I wouldn\u2019t characterise it that way. There has been an increase in numbers over about the last two months. That has been particularly linked, effectively, to the opening of borders in China, and a significant inflow of interest in visitor visas from people in China. And on-hand numbers have built up again to around about 30,000. I\u2019ve been monitoring that very closely. My main concern is that that does not result in a decrease in processing performance. Ultimately, even if your on-hand numbers are a bit higher, but you still have a good output in terms of getting decisions made, that is less of a concern. I\u2019m well satisfied at the moment in that respect. Our processing times are as fast as they have been since reconnection\u201477 percent are processed within 20 days, and the average is eight working days. We do expect to see the numbers begin to recede, probably from later this month. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EIn respect of FIFA, Immigration New Zealand does work very closely with FIFA to facilitate a smooth event in that space, and we do encourage people to apply in a timely fashion themselves. There is always a responsibility on people to apply, taking account of how long it will reasonably take to process a visa, but we do have an added process there to make sure that event goes well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EIn respect of Erica Stanford\u2019s question around the processing of visitor visas and the risk rules\u2014on a point of terminology, she used, not maliciously at all or inaccurately but, the term instructions I\u2019ll just be very clear, because the word \u201Cinstructions\u201D has a particular meaning in the world of immigration, that we are not referring here to instructions that are issued by the Minister, but operational rules that are set and can be altered by the department itself. And what they did in the latter part of 2022 was to have sort of a common-sense review of the rules that were put in place to make sure there wasn\u2019t anything in there that was unnecessary, that was creating additional slowness in the system but not really helping us to manage risk in a meaningful way. So there was a bit of a sweep through those rules; a number were removed. As I understand it, that remains the same and I am satisfied that those rules are appropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EShe asked if any further risks have been manifested; I have not seen evidence of that. We have had a small increase in the number of asylum seekers in recent months\u2014month on month\u2014but it\u2019s too early to establish whether there is really a pattern there. Although I do note it is consistent with what compatriots in other like countries are experiencing at the moment, and I think it is, therefore, just more likely linked to the fact that we are living in very turbulent times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd98dc3342494ae0a4a7507e209ad161\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd98dc3342494ae0a4a7507e209ad161\u0022\u003EDr JAMES McDOWALL (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just one very quick question on the parent category this time: I just wanted to get the Minister\u2019s thoughts and reaction around the fairness of the parent category at present\u2014just referring to the latest circular today that, from August 2023, expressions of interest submitted on or after 12 October 2022 will be included alongside those submitted before that date. It\u2019s probably fair to say that the backlog won\u2019t be worked through at that point in time. So I\u2019m just wondering what he thinks about whether that is fair or not on those who actually submitted those applications a long time ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u00224e9f2cc5dd8e49e7821da370382cb958\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e9f2cc5dd8e49e7821da370382cb958\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E I want to move to partnership. Minister, this Government said that they would review partnership, with a view to fixing it. Nothing has been done. The culturally arranged marriage visa has around about a 90 percent decline rate. It\u2019s not fit for purpose. I want to know whether or not, in the last little while, the Minister has had a review of the culturally arranged marriage visa, with a view of updating it to fit what the actual view of a modern culturally arranged marriage is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThe main part of my question is around the living together requirement. We sent nurses offshore during the pandemic to live with their partners for three months in some weird exercise, even though they were married and they were in a genuine relationship but just couldn\u2019t meet that living together requirement. Is that being reviewed? Has it been reviewed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EAnd my next question is: why is it, then, in the last little while, there have been a whole lot of declines of visitor visas for partners to come here, to prove their relationship, even though Immigration New Zealand have said, \u201CWe know you\u2019re in a genuine and stable relationship, we can see that you\u2019re married, we can see all the evidence you\u2019ve given us, but you can\u2019t fulfil the living together requirement, but we are now not going to give you a visitor visa to come here to New Zealand to prove that living together requirement.\u201D? That has always been the backstop sort of workaround that Immigration New Zealand has done. I\u2019m really concerned now that they\u2019re not doing that. Where does that leave partners who can\u2019t prove they\u2019re living together? Minister, this was, I think, something, potentially, the Government said at the last election that they would fix. I forget the timing, but they certainly said that they would. It doesn\u2019t seem to have been fixed, and now we\u2019re in a situation where partners aren\u2019t even able to come in on a visitor visa, because they\u2019re being declined. I don\u2019t know if that\u2019s just a lot of anecdotal stuff or there\u2019s something going on in the background that\u2019s been decided that that\u2019s not allowed any more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003ESo I want to know when the review and fixing up of the partnership is going to happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u0022412c7fd3d581413585c2290b2da5e6b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022412c7fd3d581413585c2290b2da5e6b9\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E In respect of partnership settings, firstly, I will just correct a comment the member Erica Stanford made about\u2014I think she said a 90 percent decline rate for culturally arranged marriages. I do have the figures with me: the approval rate in the 2021-22 year that we are considering here was in fact 45 percent, and that has in fact increased to 63 percent this year. The numbers are higher than they have ever been, and I think that is largely because Immigration New Zealand has been doing some quite grassroots work with communities to understand particular cultural practices and to make sure that they are assessing them in a relevant and accurate way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EIn respect of broader partnership settings, the member is right that the Government did say that we wanted to get on to a review of those. That is in the context of a broader review of family and partnership settings. As the member will know, there are a number of component parts of family and partnership settings, and we\u2019re basically going to work through those one at a time. The area that we have determined we will start with is a review of the settings around family violence settings that builds on the work from earlier this year when we extended the family violence setting to those people who are partners of temporary visa holders. I do expect that we will after that then be able to advance on to broader partnership setting issues, including that complex area of culturally arranged marriages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EIn respect of the later part of the member\u2019s question about recent declines of people in those situations, I have not received any information of that. I\u2019m not aware of any changes of practice or rules that Immigration New Zealand has. It might just be that there are some cases which have arisen that have particular characteristics. I\u2019m happy to talk to Immigration New Zealand and the member about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003EMr McDowall asked about the parent category. We\u2019re very pleased that our Government made the decision and has got that category open after it was closed in 2016. That has been welcomed. We are, effectively, dealing with a big backlog and we are giving precedence to the processing of those first, but the first draw for new expressions of interest (EOIs) will take place in July of this year. People who have an old and existing EOI and it might take a bit of time to work through are not disadvantaged. They do still have the ability, if they wish, to also put an EOI for the new draw in the ballot.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7102aa38e2840e994d42bbbb6929efb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7102aa38e2840e994d42bbbb6929efb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, our time with the Minister of Immigration has ended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228e387f99e3d34d328300505f8ed81a71\u0022\u003EPolice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00228d6cd693c056415bb3be8b0e4c1c45be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d6cd693c056415bb3be8b0e4c1c45be\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister of Police is now available for 45 minutes to respond to members\u2019 questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022 data-id=\u00224106e057c8cf4d82bc349b7dede0fc48\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224106e057c8cf4d82bc349b7dede0fc48\u0022\u003EHon VANUSHI WALTERS (Chairperson of the Justice Committee):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s a pleasure to begin the annual review debate on the New Zealand Police for the 2021-22 year. I\u2019d just begin by thanking the Justice Committee for its professional work on the review\u2014thanking our clerks as well\u2014but also thanking the New Zealand Police. We, as a committee, expressed our appreciation for all the work that the New Zealand Police do, but particularly the front-line staff in terms of keeping us safe over the last year. We\u2019d also express our appreciation to the Police Commissioner, Andrew Coster; deputy commissioners; and the Police leadership.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EWe tabled this report with the House on 30 March but the hearing was conducted on 15 December, and what we learnt was that, as of 30 June 2022, the Police employed 10,342 constabulary staff, 4,292 non-constabulary staff, and 265 recruits. We heard from the Police that the work of the New Zealand Police focuses on three goals: safe homes, safe roads, and safe communities. The work includes keeping the peace, maintaining public safety, enforcing the law, and preventing crime, but the Police also participate in policing activities out of New Zealand. They also participate in emergency management and national security.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThe Police, in our discussion, acknowledged a growing demand for their services and particularly for family harm and mental health responses. They explained that prioritising some responses over others is an established necessity. They noted that demand for services has always exceeded their available resources. They provided statistics from the Ministry of Justice\u2019s crime and victims survey, which showed that nearly 80 percent of people believe the police effectively respond to serious crime, and they told us that while there is a low average reporting rate, there has been an increased reporting rate on family violence incidents, and this really does demonstrate an increase in the trust in the police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EWe heard about the six Te Pae Oranga panels targeted at preventing youth offending, and we asked what influence Te Pae Oranga panels could have in combatting the underlying factors driving youth crime. The Police told us that Te Pae Oranga panels have the ability to take a holistic approach to a youth offender, and these panels will often address the wider influences on a youth offender that may have driven them to commit a crime. They told us that experience shows that young offenders are often more intimidated by being held to account by their community than by the traditional youth justice response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EWe noted that many retail businesses throughout New Zealand have been struggling with ram raids, and the Police told us that offending levels for ram raids appear to be trending downwards from an August 2022 peak. They also told us they had brought 333 prosecutions and made 133 youth referrals from the 487 ram raids between January and October 2022. They said they are confident they are apprehending most of the offenders, noting that an individual will often be involved in multiple offences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThey told us about Operation Tauwhiro, a nationwide operation aiming to disrupt and prevent firearms-related violence by criminal gangs and organised crime groups, and it operates in conjunction with Operation Cobalt, which aims to target unlawful behaviour and intimidation by gang members that threaten the community\u2019s sense of safety. Some members asked the Police\u2014or they expressed a concern\u2014about the scope of Operation Tauwhiro and asked the Police how many staff were assigned to it. The Police responded that Operation Tauwhiro is a whole-of-police operation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003ESo we covered a lot of ground in the review, and I would just like to end by thanking again the select committee for its robust and professional work. I look forward to the debate in the committee this evening and once again thank the Police for their work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u0022e08247bde72245ce913b7971b81d4840\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e08247bde72245ce913b7971b81d4840\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Whangapar\u0101oa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Firstly, can I just take the opportunity to congratulate the incoming Minister of Police, Ginny Andersen, in her new role. It is the fourth police Minister that has come into the role since I\u2019ve had my role, and I hope that it\u2019s the last because, when you\u2019re talking about pressure on police, a briefing to incoming Ministers can be exhausting for those that have to put it together and brief a new Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI just want to come back to the comments that were just made by the chair of the Justice Committee, Vanushi Walters, and acknowledge them. We try to work in a bipartisan way on that committee as much as we can. But she talked about ram raids, and we\u2019ve seen a 551 percent increase in ram raids since 2018 through to 2022. We\u2019ve heard quite a bit of talk recently in the media, and from the Minister herself, that we\u2019re seeing a decline in ram raids. There were two figures that were used. One was in August of 2022, which was at a peak, and the next was February of 2023, which was at a low, and that was used as an example of percentage reduction in ram raids.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EBut I\u2019d ask the Minister\u2014and I\u2019m sure that she\u2019s keeping herself abreast of the Police website in terms of ram raids. In February there were 41 ram raids. We\u2019re now in March, with the latest data, where there\u2019s been 51. That\u2019s an increase of 25 percent. So can the Minister just stand and square for this committee why she\u2019s talking about a reduction in ram raids? Of the offenders, 82 percent have been rehabilitated, which means that there\u2019s only 18 percent out there offending, and yet we\u2019re seeing ram raids and aggravated robberies appear, reported in the media every day, and that is only the tip of the iceberg in terms of what our front-line police are having to deal with. So could the Minister explain to me how she\u2019s telling the country that there\u2019s a reduction in ram raids when it\u2019s very clear that there\u2019s been a 25 percent increase since February, which is the last number that she used, through to the end of March, which is the latest number that we have?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022003665c39fce43ac959a1aada79e0c1c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022003665c39fce43ac959a1aada79e0c1c\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much. Well, thank you to the member for that question. Look, I do acknowledge that both ram raids and the correlating youth offending has been a significant issue for New Zealand, and particularly for retail owners who are directly impacted. My view would be that we did\u2014from looking at the statistics to date\u2014in August of last year, we reached a peak of 116 ram raids for one month. And while the member is quite correct that February saw 41 and March is sitting at another 10 over that time, I still see that as a decrease from the 116 which peaked in August of last year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229813f7c88b044f428bce91d467e62395\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: Is there not a 25 percent increase?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d93d2196b75046f9b3701cc2ce22e7eb\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: I mean, we can debate about the semantics of it. I do think that the measures that have been taken by police\u2014which is through the retail crime prevention scheme and installing security measures\u2014are proving to be a good way of deterring crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to note that I\u2019m aware of a recent spate of ram raids in Christchurch. And in two of those instances, the security features in one dairy\u2014which was the bollards and the security features at the front of the store\u2014prevented goods from being stolen. And in a different instance\u2014and I know that, as far as I\u2019m aware, it was a jeweller that had a fog canon installed. I don\u2019t think that was part of the Government scheme. However, the activation of the fog canon in that recent instance also resulted in there being no goods taken from that store. I\u2019d like to note that there\u2019s still significant damage to those businesses which result in insurance claims and ongoing problems for those businesses, but I think that the combination of the Ministry for Business, Innovation and Employment fog canon scheme and also the retail crime prevention scheme are important to note.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI will point out to the member: look, I think it\u2019s important we have a robust debate about these things. We are actually looking for the financial year that ended in June last year. So debating about the numbers of ram raids that have occurred over the past couple of months\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0e7b02891954b5496bc53d2ec167c9f\u0022\u003EMatt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, sorry, I thought that was the chair\u2019s role.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222b804b83ce744c7825303ed37417f78\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m still happy to answer those questions, but if we are actually referring to the select committee report, which is 2021 to 2022, the point that he does make, even though I\u2019ve provided an answer, is outside the term that we\u2019re referring to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u0022aca99abf65bd4a8281cb03e40dc9a9b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aca99abf65bd4a8281cb03e40dc9a9b9\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Whangapar\u0101oa):\u003C/span\u003E Could the Minister explain to me, in the last review period, in the document that was provided to us, under \u201COur People. How we ensure our staff are well and safe\u201D, it says, \u201CWe are committed to ensuring the wellness and safety of our people to enable them to remain fit for work and fit for life and are deployable, through a prevention, advisory, and responsive service delivery model. We are creating and building on a culture where safety and wellness are part of every employee\u2019s DNA and intrinsic in everything we do, and where they are valued and feel valued. Our priority of Be first then do is about focusing on our own people\u2019s wellbeing and their safety in order for them to be [able to do] their very best in their roles.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EHow does that square, Minister, with the fact that on 9 February, there was a meeting between the commissioner; the Attorney-General, David Parker; the MP for Wellington, Grant Robertson\u2014and I\u2019d like to hear your comments on this one, why an MP is meeting with our Commissioner of Police\u2014and the Speaker of the House, Trevor Mallard, and that that meeting, as reported by the commissioner, was uncomfortable. The police staff that were on site the following day, their operations order was quite simply to continue to do what they had been doing, and that was provide security, perimeter security, and observation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EAt 10 o\u2019clock that night, after that meeting with the Speaker, the Attorney-General, and the MP for Wellington, those operation orders were changed, and those officers were put out on a skirmish line, without, according to the Independent Police Conduct Authority report, a proper plan, without the proper training, and, actually, without the proper equipment. Just about every single one of those officers that were deployed felt very strongly that the decision around that and the timing related directly to political pressure that was brought to bear on the commissioner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E My question to the Minister is this: why were staff deployed into a situation that police already knew was dangerous for them? Because there had been two incidents prior to that, where parliamentary security staff had gone out into the crowd and had had to withdraw because of the aggression and the violence shown towards them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThere was a second incident where police staff were deployed into the crowd, and had to do a tactical withdrawal because there was aggression shown towards them. They knew that there was an aggressive element of the protests. There were a lot of good people there. There were some people there that were looking for a confrontation with police officers, without a doubt. Why were they deployed without the proper protective gear, and why were they deployed into a skirmish line when that\u2019s not what the plan was for them on the 10th? How did those changes come about, and why was there not investment made\u2014in the year 2021-22\u2014to ensure that there was enough protective equipment, and that our staff was given it? Because everything that happened that day on the 10th flies in the face of this annual review in terms of what the police are saying around valuing their people and making sure that they\u2019re put in a situation where they are safe and they can return home to their families after they\u2019ve finished their role.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022 data-id=\u00226dc55f5c03e4489e9d6087853a48a5a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226dc55f5c03e4489e9d6087853a48a5a6\u0022\u003EDr EMILY HENDERSON (Labour\u2014Whang\u0101rei):\u003C/span\u003E Minister, the previous speaker, the Hon Mark Mitchell, previously referred to the subject of youth crime and the ram raids, and I really appreciate your comments on that. One of the interesting points that the Police made to us in the hearings was that they see the best focus for turning our young people away from crime as being to focus on the fundamental causes of offending. I would like to hear from you what initiatives the Government has introduced to get our young offenders back on the right track, some who, of course, have never been on the right track, and I would like to hear from you what impact these are having, in a bit more detail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EI\u2019m really interested also in the Te Pae Oranga panels; I believe there are six and they\u2019re up and running, and they seem to be having some quite marked impacts on the way in which young people are dropping the recidivism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022 data-id=\u002289de0fca431b459cb4d515f7fa491111\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289de0fca431b459cb4d515f7fa491111\u0022\u003ECHRIS BAILLIE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, Minister Andersen. I\u2019m sure you\u2019re familiar with Sir Robert Peel, the father of modern policing. One of the core ideas was that an effective police department doesn\u2019t have high arrest stats; its community has low crime rates. It\u2019s great to hear so many extra arrests are going on, but I just wonder whether that core idea has been lost a bit. And I wonder\u2014if we combine that with a statement from Chris Cahill, president of the Police Association, who said, \u201CAll police officers know that the crime the community witnesses is only the tip of the iceberg. I am consistently surprised when a reporter expresses shock at a high profile incident when I know there are many similar events that just don\u2019t make it into the media.\u201D I just wonder how confident you are with the statistics that you\u2019re receiving and whether they\u2019re being addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u00229a4e319be8dc49da85b9110fb529f9f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a4e319be8dc49da85b9110fb529f9f0\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I will do them in order, if that\u2019s all right. So in relation to Mr Mitchell\u2019s questions in relation to the protest outside Parliament and actions taken in and around that, I am not responsible for operational decisions that are made, but I think it is important to refer to what is a very thorough investigation by the Independent Police Conduct Authority (IPCA). The IPCA has confirmed\u2014and I was pleased to see that\u2014that police did a good job in tough and unprecedented circumstances. I\u2019m pleased to see that their work has now been independently recognised. I\u2019m particularly assured by that report, Mr Mitchell, that the police generally acted with remarkable restraint and professionalism and that all the tactics they used to defend themselves and others were justified in the circumstances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIt is clear, however, that the response wasn\u2019t perfect. The report highlights important lessons that will assist police in managing future public-order events. Police has already begun such work, and that\u2019s been recommended by the report by the IPCA, and I will continue to work with the commissioner to see that that work is progressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe IPCA also made a recommendation that the Government undertake a multi-agency review of the laws specifically governing public-order events, given the deficiencies highlighted through their investigation. The Government has sought advice on what a multi-agency review would look like, but we acknowledge that the outcomes of any such review would require careful consideration to ensure that that fundamental democratic right to assemble and protest is not impeded. I guess I would like to conclude by saying that the IPCA made it incredibly clear that there was no suggestion of interference from Ministers or members of Parliament, and specifically at paragraph 284 of the report, the IPCA stated: \u201Cwe reiterate that our investigation did not uncover any undue political influence at any stage of the occupation. In fact, what we did find was explicit recognition of the need to respect the constitutional divide between politics and Police operations.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to move on briefly to the point that Ms Henderson made in relation to some of the work that\u2019s going on specifically to address youth offenders\u2014I think that was the question. I\u2019ve been really heartened to see those programmes that are operating in both Counties Manukau and in Waitakere in the west of Auckland. I\u2019ve met with our police officers who are working in that space. I appreciate that there has been some frustration in the fact that a family group conference can take some time, particularly to deal with those repeat youth offenders. These programmes have proven to be a really useful circuit-breaker to identify those underlying drivers that are causing a 12- or 13-year-old to be out late and conducting these types of crimes. Because more often than not, there is family violence, there is sexual abuse, there is mental health, and there are ongoing issues within that particular wh\u0101nau that will not only be impacting upon that young person but quite often their siblings. The heartening statistics I\u2019ve seen is that these programmes are also looking at the other children within that family unit. That\u2019s where the real prevention opportunity lies, because while it\u2019s a sad state that these young people are out committing these crimes, let\u2019s use that as an opportunity to understand what is going on within that family unit to make sure that other children in the same family do not end up in the same position. And that\u2019s what I\u2019m really keen in driving. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EAnd the other member\u2019s question was, I think: do I believe statistics? The answer would be I do. Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u002290efcc3f0a6f45e7ac927755a6059df4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290efcc3f0a6f45e7ac927755a6059df4\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Whangapar\u0101oa):\u003C/span\u003E What evidence does the Minister have, as the incoming Minister who has made several public statements\u2014and I\u2019m assuming that she\u2019s relying on both the briefing to the incoming Minister and the annual review. I can\u2019t find anything in the annual review to support her comments when she says that because the Government has almost delivered 1,800 more police officers, New Zealanders feel safer. What is she basing those comments on? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u002256d9a61f299f491b9a9ba746a8ea48e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002256d9a61f299f491b9a9ba746a8ea48e2\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m really pleased with the fact that we are going to be reaching our target of 1,800 extra police. And it is my view that the best way to increase community safety in New Zealand is to make sure our police service is equipped to be able to respond. As I\u2019ve already noted, with ram raids, the particular issue at the moment that has been causing concern, the ability for police to be resourced and have front line available to be deployed as quickly as possible has resulted in most of the cases I\u2019ve seen recently, in the offender being apprehended, sometimes within hours of the offence. I believe the fact that an offender is rapidly apprehended and held to account to be a significant contributor to increasing community safety. The fact that we have additional police to do their work, the fact that we have a tactical response model, the fact that we\u2019ve invested in extra abilities for our police to be able to respond rapidly, to assess risk and to know how and when to act, and to receive that additional training that\u2019s delivered now through the tactical response model\u2014I believe all of those factors contribute to being able to respond to crime and safety within our communities, and those things increase community safety within New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u0022dae25e5902944b05b11af3e307937111\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dae25e5902944b05b11af3e307937111\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Whangapar\u0101oa):\u003C/span\u003E So just to confirm, Minister, are you saying that when you made statements that New Zealanders feel safer, that\u2019s more you going off your own vibe and what you think rather than actually any evidence or information or stats either contained in a briefing to the incoming Minister or in an annual review to say that Kiwis feel safe? Or is it just the Minister\u2019s vibe?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022 data-id=\u00228833d19283e04ac694fb28e3a7e20979\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223e43c957-a2f1-43cf-baf7-5b77358e038b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228833d19283e04ac694fb28e3a7e20979\u0022\u003ECHRIS BAILLIE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks, Madam Chair. The last three years, Minister, of my police career I spent in youth aid, and New Zealand has a world-leading youth aid service. However, it\u2019s not going to work if the other agencies surrounding it don\u2019t work themselves\u2014Oranga Tamariki or the mental health issues and all of those other agencies that are involved. Family group conferences get a lot of flak, but they work if they\u2019re done properly. Are you confident that the other agencies involved in those conferences and the wellbeing of the young offenders, are up to it? I know the police are\u2014are you confident that those other agencies are up to it as well?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022 data-id=\u0022b23de9a31f084e71ac229f2710d46006\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b23de9a31f084e71ac229f2710d46006\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m just reflecting on some of the other contributions. I know the Ministry of Justice\u2019s New Zealand Crime and Victims Survey showed that nearly 80 percent of people believe the police effectively respond to serious crime, and that\u2019s something that did come out in the discussions that the Justice Committee had, and, indeed, in our report as well, but I wonder if the Minister could specifically speak to Operation Tauwhiro and Operation Cobalt and the disrupting effect that they\u2019ve had in terms of firearms-related crime and dampening down gang activity in particular, and perhaps give us an update in that area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022404800dd319f4874b036d544f090b87b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022404800dd319f4874b036d544f090b87b\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Right, I will respond to those in order. When I became the Minister of Police, Mr Mitchell, I was asked what my aspiration, as the Minister of Police, is for New Zealand. I stand strongly by my answer\u2014it is to make New Zealanders feel safe. I stand by that. That is still my aspiration as the Minister of Police. I was asked about the three main ways by which I intend to do that\u2014I stand by those three main ways, which I will continue to work on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe first way is by backing our police by making sure that they are resourced, by ensuring that we do have 1,800 additional police officers working in New Zealand by the end of June, and, specifically, that 700 of those additional police officers will be specifically dedicated to tackling organised crime and gangs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe second is by tackling retail crime by ensuring that our retail crime prevention team is appropriately resourced. It has now had a second tranche of funding, totalling $15 million to provide security, prevention, and advice to those small-business owners that have been victims of an aggravated robbery; and also, with my other hat on, as the Minister for Small Business, by enabling quicker access to security features such as fog cannons, to be done online.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe third area that I\u2019ve really wanted to do, to deliver to make New Zealanders feel safer, is to deal with the issue of youth crime. I know this goes to the heart of people feeling that New Zealand needs to be safer. The fact that young people are out after hours, committing aggravated robberies in stolen vehicles is simply not acceptable. It is a symptom of something that is not going well, and we need to look within that family unit and provide wraparound services to ensure the care and protection of those young people are put first and foremost in order to reduce the offending that we are seeing within our community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe point that Mr Bayly raised in relation to other services that work alongside police\u2014this is a really fair point to make. One of the opportunities that has come through the spike of ram raids that we\u2019ve seen is that we are seeing Police and Oranga Tamariki working more closely together than we have ever seen before, and particularly in those 24 to 48 hours\u2014when it\u2019s that circuit-breaker, or the Kotahi te Whakaaro. It\u2019s those high end, high-need individuals that police are getting far greater engagement with Oranga Tamariki in a short period of time, and I see that working really well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EOne area that I would always want to see improvements in is mental health. I know far too many hours of front-line time is being dedicated to areas that police are not trained in delivering. Mental health continues to be problematic. There\u2019ve been some good pilots going on in parts, where we\u2019re seeing people with trained medical expertise in mental health sitting alongside police officers\u2014this is well outside the review, but I\u2019m keen on seeing more of that happen. I think it holds great benefits to be able to get those people who are in distress the medical attention they need, but also to free up police officers so that they can be doing those things that they need the most\u2014to be out in street, doing their job, essentially.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EFinally, Operation Cobalt has been a great success. The number that I\u2019ve just actually heard tonight is the total number of charges now exceeds 35,000 across different crime types\u201435,000 charges laid by police, specific to organised crime. That is a significant amount of activity that we are seeing in that space. It\u2019s the extension of work that goes right across police, but I would like to point out that having, by the end of June, those additional roles specifically dedicated to target organised crime has had a significant impact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EFor the public, they have been able to see increased visibility of policing in and around events that do involve larger numbers of gang members in public places. That has, I believe, contributed to managing some of those events we\u2019d seen in the past that were really concerning the community in terms of their safety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EOperation Cobalt is a nationally coordinated operation with all districts, right across New Zealand. It specifically addresses unlawful behaviour and intimidation by gang members that affects the community\u2019s sense of safety both in our communities and on our roads. So I see that particular operation as being hugely successful, and I\u2019m pleased to see it continuing to deliver results.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022fbd89f15f8ae4bf1a7e08855b718532f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fbd89f15f8ae4bf1a7e08855b718532f\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY (National\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I just want to thank the Minister the Hon Ginny Andersen for her contribution. I slightly disagreed when she said mental health is not in the annual review, because, of course, it was clearly in the Police annual report. I do want to focus on what the Minister said about the Co-Response Teams, because the history of the Co-Response Teams\u2014which were announced for $8 million in the last National Government\u2014is that in 2017 this Government came in and cancelled and reprioritised that funding. Here we are five years later and the Co-Response Teams that the Minister referenced in the committee just now are being funded\u2014well, the one in Wellington was $700,000 of baseline Vote Health funding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister is: does she think the cancelling of the Co-Response funding in 2018 was a good decision when she now knows that police are reporting 50 percent of their time as non-core business, attending mental health call outs? Fifty percent of mental health call outs in New Zealand are unattended by the police. Will she commit funding through the police budget or the proceeds of crime budget to resource the Co-Response Teams so that they don\u2019t have to draw funding out of the already stretched previous district health board baseline funding?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022 data-id=\u002259fa9cb387884caca5d9678edefc28ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259fa9cb387884caca5d9678edefc28ee\u0022\u003EDr EMILY HENDERSON (Labour\u2014Whang\u0101rei):\u003C/span\u003E Just following on the topic of call outs, you know, one of the things that the select committee did hear in the report, and we reported back on, as we also reported back on the findings of the victim survey, is that 80 percent of people are in fact satisfied with police response, much as you yourself, Minister, had said earlier. We heard that demand for police services has always exceeded the ability of police to fund that. And there has been an increased confidence in the police, of course, and particularly we\u2019re seeing that in the increased numbers of family violence reports\u2014police were reporting that they feel that that is a real sign that they have the community\u2019s trust. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003ESo what I\u2019d like to know from you, Minister, as you\u2019re going forward in this work, is: what progress has been made on the Government\u2019s promise from 2017 that you touched on earlier\u2014so I\u2019d like more specifics\u2014to deliver the 1,800 extra front-line officers, if you could, Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u00224b86f26eb0d74d7d97191e3fdd5b8a7e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b86f26eb0d74d7d97191e3fdd5b8a7e\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Whangapar\u0101oa):\u003C/span\u003E I want to make one thing very clear: there\u2019s no criticism of our front-line police officers coming from this side of the House. There\u2019s only deep admiration and pride for the way that they just keep performing and picking up and having to deal with a 33 percent increase in violent crime, a 41 percent increase in victimisations, an over 500 percent increase in ram raids, a 60 percent increase in mental health call-outs, and a massive increase in domestic violence incidents. They are outstanding. And in spite of the fact that even at their parliamentary protest, they weren\u2019t always supported by the best decisions made from their leadership, the leaders on the ground and the police officers out there doing the job made most Kiwis proud of the police service that we have and the front line that we have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EI\u2019m glad that the Minister has clarified the fact that she got a bit mixed up and what she meant to say was she wants to make New Zealand safer, rather than coming out and saying New Zealanders feel safer. Those are two very different things. The one thing that I would like the Minister to speak to and she still hasn\u2019t\u2014she said it\u2019s semantics\u2014is that she\u2019s pinning her performance on ram raids, and whether they\u2019re reduced, and the rehabilitation around offenders, which we all want and we all need. And we\u2019ve made announcements on this side. Obviously there\u2019s a different approach taken on the other side. There has been an increase of 25 percent in ram raids since February this year, which was the last data point that the Minister herself has used. When we take the latest police data in March, there\u2019s been a\u2014I don\u2019t know why she thinks it\u2019s semantics. It\u2019s very clear when you go from 41 to 51 that that\u2019s a 25 percent increase whichever way you cut it. How does the Minister explain that when she\u2019s been telling the country that we\u2019ve got 82 percent of these offenders, it\u2019s a small cohort, so we\u2019ve reduced it to 18 percent? How does she marry that up with the fact that we\u2019ve had a 25 percent increase in ram raids in the last month? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u002247dd9a40ed78469aa3a626fe6a24a2ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247dd9a40ed78469aa3a626fe6a24a2ff\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. In relation to the points around mental health, the member raised\u2014I think he was referring to the Wellington Co-Response Team (CRT), and that is, I will say, a successful example of a multi-agency response, which involves co-located police, ambulance, and mental health services being jointly deployed to emergency mental health calls. Wellington CRT operates as a face-to-face service for individuals in mental health crisis, and, as a remote resource, provides situation-specific advice to those front-line officers. The CRT evaluation did find that a multi-agency approach did reduce police use of powers to detain people and increase referrals to pathways outside of transport to police custody units or into, even, emergency departments. There is strong support from police, Te Whatu Ora, and also Te Aka Whai Ora for the extension of multi-agency responses, including elements of the CRT model. So that\u2019s important to note.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI can\u2019t remember exactly what she said, but there was a question around reaching 1,800. I can comment that in terms of that aim, we are on track to deliver by 30 June. Over the last 12 months, we\u2019ve seen some attrition; attrition sits around 4.5 but we\u2019re still on target for the end of June. I guess I would add, in relation to that, that I\u2019ve been really heartened in the graduations I\u2019ve seen to date with the increasing levels of diversity that we are seeing come into the police, and that it\u2019s great to have a police service that reflects the population which they serve. I think police are doing a great job at being able to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EBack to the member\u2019s question around how you cut the numbers in terms of whether there\u2019s been an increase or a decrease in terms of ram raids. It\u2019s true that they were a somewhat new event. We first saw ram raids occurring about a year or so ago. It was a new event. We hadn\u2019t seen those happening in the past. I think it\u2019s important to note that they are a complex matter that police alone cannot solve. But, saying that, police actively investigate every single ram raid, and it\u2019s been good to see those outcomes happening. I still go back to the point that when we saw those increases happening, which was back, say, from the beginning of 2022, we saw those numbers each month climb up. So from January, 52; February, 53; March, 60; April, 77; May, 83; June, 62; July, 77; August, 116; and then from that point in August of last year, we\u2019ve continued to see a decrease, and those decreases have gone 85, 76, 72, 73, 57, 40, and then a slight jump from last month, up another 10. So I still maintain that the 50 we\u2019ve seen this month is substantially lower than the peak that we saw in August of 2022.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u00220311100fc7654f079745ffe6b93fcfb7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220311100fc7654f079745ffe6b93fcfb7\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Whangapar\u0101oa):\u003C/span\u003E On a lighter note, I\u2019ve had my good friend and colleague Penny Simmonds inform me that we have some VIPs in the House tonight, from Stewart Island. I was going to ask a question to the Minister of Police, and say: how important is the police officer on Stewart Island, and does she remain committed to making sure that they are fully funded and supported?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022fec7a2c3b52b45f0ba0717fc6382aa9f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fec7a2c3b52b45f0ba0717fc6382aa9f\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Full respect\u2014I don\u2019t know the name of the officer on Stewart Island, but I would like to say a big thank you for the service you provide in Stewart Island and all the great work you do. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0f126fba6654af98c0c8e58eeaf94c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0f126fba6654af98c0c8e58eeaf94c3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we still have a few minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u00223c12cb2125d241dca17fc90276073602\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c12cb2125d241dca17fc90276073602\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Whangapar\u0101oa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister Andersen, I would like to clarify something with you, and it\u2019s in terms of the international relationships that the New Zealand Police have. They\u2019ve got many partners and law enforcement agencies that they work with around the world, and they do that because they\u2019re focused on keeping our country safe, they\u2019re focused on shutting down supply chains, and they\u2019re focused on sharing intelligence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ERecently, you came out very publicly and criticised them for having met with the Hong Kong police, who there has been a longstanding relationship and exchange with. I recognise the fact and the sensitivity around interference in Hong Kong and the way that there was violence involved with the protests there, but I would like some direction from her in terms of how much involvement does the Minister and the foreign affairs Minister intend to take in terms of decisions that our police make around law enforcement and the safety and security of our country. And was the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade involved or consulted at all around the decision that was made in terms of the visit and the interaction with the Hong Kong police?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u00228a0e3b9379824c95a492374612077ec6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a0e3b9379824c95a492374612077ec6\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E I spoke recently at the transnational organised crime conference, and at that conference, which New Zealand Police hosted here in Wellington, it was really encouraging to see all of those international partners come together. They ranged from a wide range of countries. I know that those relationships, not just Five Eyes but further afield, provide police here in New Zealand with valuable intel that have led to significant operations\u2014where we\u2019ve seen encoded apps that are really difficult, from a New Zealand technology point of view, to be able to understand and get warrants to look at what is going on. That wider cooperation with our transnational organised crime-fighting partners has facilitated quite significant terminations of warrants here in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EWho police meet with, who they talk to, and how they share information on how to counter transnational organised crime: that is a matter for police, in order to get those relationships in place and to make sure\u2014and organise in conferences such as the one I\u2019ve referred to\u2014how important it is to keep those relationships warm. So at the time when they are called upon to collaborate\u2014because we are seeing transnational organised criminal groups far more further afield into different countries\u2014it is critical that police have that operational ability to share information and act unilaterally to make sure we shut down those organised criminal groups.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f16d9f3a95944cf0bef04a9671d60aef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f16d9f3a95944cf0bef04a9671d60aef\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I call the next member, I just alert the committee that we have four minutes left.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u0022586cbf834a6b4b13b1b5872b17fbfcc5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022586cbf834a6b4b13b1b5872b17fbfcc5\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Look, to follow up the Minister in the chair, Ginny Andersen\u2014and I\u2019m all for how we combat transnational crime, but does she feel as a Minister that it\u2019s appropriate that the New Zealand Police are engaging now with a police force who were actively and deliberately involved alongside Chinese police forces who violently suppressed democracy, crushed democracy, in Hong Kong, continue to deny the rights, the basic rights, which we take for granted? Does she feel it\u2019s appropriate that New Zealand Police had anything to do with the Hong Kong police forces as they are today, with the behaviour which they demonstrated against loyal, good citizens? She can sense I\u2019m a little bit angry, and I will acknowledge that here, but I find it reprehensible that New Zealand Police would engage with the Hong Kong police forces after all that they\u2019ve done to crush the democratic aspirations of the people of Hong Kong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5f4b273ab584ce0969cc71b468545ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5f4b273ab584ce0969cc71b468545ae\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ve addressed the question. I understand that New Zealand Police meets with a range of partners who are international partners with the primary purpose of reducing the harm and destruction that organised criminal networks have within our country, whether that be through drug trafficking, human trafficking, or whether it be through undermining our international reputation. There are a number of significant risks that transnational organised crime presents to New Zealand, and it is important that our police service can work alongside other international partners to not only share information but to cooperate to dismantle organised criminal networks that bring harm to our communities, peddle drugs to our communities, and profit from that harm. So the more that we can work with international partners to reduce the harms that organised criminal networks have in the world, then that is, I believe, fulfilling the purpose of keeping New Zealanders safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aeadad58b569401287c06119179a7763\u0022\u003EOceans and Fisheries\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002285f98ac24cb941bcb26cc57d7e067527\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002285f98ac24cb941bcb26cc57d7e067527\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, time with the Minister of Police has ended. Thank you to the Minister. The Minister for Oceans and Fisheries is now available for 30 minutes to respond to members\u2019 questions. I\u2019ll wait for just a moment until we have the Minister in the chair, and I will take the first call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022 data-id=\u0022728b4f37f50f4e75800c17af20c2470b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022728b4f37f50f4e75800c17af20c2470b\u0022\u003EANGELA ROBERTS (Deputy Chairperson of the Primary Production Committee):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I rise as deputy chair of the Primary Production Committee to lead the debate on the Appropriation bill for fisheries. I just want to acknowledge the two previous fisheries Ministers who cover this period, the Hon David Parker and the Hon Stuart Nash, who came and spoke to the select committee about the review. And, of course congratulations to, and I wish to acknowledge, our new Minister for Oceans and Fisheries, the Hon Rachel Brooking. It feels good to see you there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EFisheries is, of course, covered by the Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI), and their mahi is a true reflection\u2014it\u2019s reflected in its complexity of demands and opportunities in the sector. During the review, we heard how MPI have worked to ensure our fisheries are managed well and that we have sustainable and healthy fish stocks, aquaculture, and a wider marine environment. Fisheries is an incredibly diverse and complex sector concerned with the sustainability and the development of our commercial fisheries, including aquaculture and, of course, our recreational fisheries. Our fisheries, our oceans, are such a vital part of our identity as individuals, as wh\u0101nau, and as a nation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EIt is not just about culture; it is about economics. Seafood exports, we were told, were up 8 percent in 2021-22, to a total of $1.9 billion, almost back to the pre-COVID levels. A significant focus for fisheries has been, over the last year, the development in aquaculture. They have released the Accelerate the Aquaculture Strategy: Investment Roadmap, and this strategy has been led by MPI and is ambitious and aims to grow the industry to $3 billion per annum by 2035\u2014five times its current value. In order to make that real, what they have done is have significant collaboration, such as with councils, around the development of open-ocean aquaculture guidelines, and with iwi to improve settlement allocation mechanisms, and they\u2019ve also investigated the carbon footprint of shellfish. This is part of their exploration of how we lean into the way that we futureproof this massive global industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EThey told us about the Provincial Growth Fund and other funds that have enabled a number of projects aimed at building our aquaculture industry and making sure that it is world leading. Shellfish: we heard about the potential because New Zealand farmed shellfish have a lower carbon footprint than any other globally produced animal protein. So there is some significant potential there, and MPI is really ambitious about supporting our aquaculture industry at staying at the forefront of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EThere are challenges, of course, with regards to conservation, restoration, and sustainability. They are real and complex and constantly changing. We heard about the projects including work to protect Hector\u2019s dolphins, the Hauraki Gulf, and the work internationally around fisheries and exploitation, and of course our beloved scallops.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003EAnother really important aspect of making sure that we have sustainable fisheries is the significant work that has gone into monitoring, and I guess one of the most obvious projects that they\u2019ve been involved in is the process of financially supporting the roll-out of the on-board cameras that were enabled by the Fisheries Amendment Act 2022. Approximately 300 boats are in the process of receiving cameras, which will mean that we can monitor about 85 percent of the total catch. That monitoring isn\u2019t just about compliance; it is about ensuring that those who are doing the right thing are shown to be doing the right thing, and to protect and enhance our international reputation economically, as well as making sure we can do the best we can do to protect our fisheries for our future generations. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00224098661a69f44e1cb208578ed0adbcc1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224098661a69f44e1cb208578ed0adbcc1\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I thought it would be useful for me to start with a brief introduction, as a new Minister and very new to this portfolio. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224df278accff24ef8aa4457f2e1133cc3\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Congratulations! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9cbd68c933e416787b1855d7c7664e2\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for the congratulations. Thank you to the deputy chair of the Primary Production Committee for that. I\u2019ve been very fortunate that right as I\u2019ve started as the Minister, I was able to launch the draft Fisheries Industry Transformation Plan. That launch was last week and it had industry people there, iwi, environmental groups, scientists, and also some mental health people as well. So my approach to coming into this portfolio as a new person to oceans and fisheries is really to meet as many people as I can and ask questions and learn about this. So the industry transformation plan relates to the $1.45 billion of wild caught fish, and that\u2019s obviously a very significant part of our economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThere are some key issues that I\u2019ve observed as I\u2019ve been the Minister, and one of those is, of course, the importance of this new roll-out of cameras on boats. That\u2019s really because the better information we have about what is happening on the water, then this means the more we can do in terms of sustainability for everyone. And that\u2019s $68 million over four years of Government spend, rolling out cameras on up to 300 commercial fishing vessels, and this is in addition to the GPS technology that we already have. There\u2019s been the proof of concept of these cameras on boats, and the focus on the cameras that are already on boats has really been around protected species. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAlso, in recent times, we\u2019ve had the legislation on discard rules, and this links to those cameras on boats. This recent legislation, it\u2019s been explained to me, is to encourage the wrong fish not being caught in the first place. So that legislation means that all catch must be reported regardless of whether it\u2019s quota, and almost all fish must be landed unless an exception has been issued. So the idea here is that improving the level of monitoring and verification of catch with on-board cameras reduces the ability of fishers to dispose of unwanted catch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAlso, of course, we\u2019ve had COVID and that had a significant impact on the industry. This is an industry of $2 billion in export revenue in 2022. And a thing I learnt when visiting some industry people recently was that 70 percent of fish sales goes to restaurants. People don\u2019t seem to like cooking fish at home. So, obviously, when you have the COVID lockdown and the restaurants are closed, that was a challenging time and they were well supported by Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EObviously there\u2019s a lot of other issues as well that we\u2019ll discuss during this debate, and I\u2019ll sit down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u0022a90a3c006569486786637e49faefeea5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a90a3c006569486786637e49faefeea5\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. My congratulations to the Minister on her promotion. I wonder if the Minister would tell us, with her southern roots, what focus does she have on the fisheries around Stewart Island / Rakiura, and, in particular, the world-famous Bluff oyster beds, because I know there are a number of young people in the gallery tonight who would be interested to briefly hear her comments on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u002215ee271a8edb47498c9b83f8815d962e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215ee271a8edb47498c9b83f8815d962e\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, Minister, for taking the opportunity to have a quick conversation about all things cameras on boats. Congratulations on your new role. Minister, $68 million over four years\u2014I\u2019m cognisant of the fact that there were about 35 cameras installed of the 300 thus far, from proof of concept in 2019. We\u2019re now 2023, Minister. I\u2019ve questioned the Hon David Parker in this House, and he said there were delays, so I think this House would like to know why there are delays. We\u2019re now three years in, Minister, and that is $68 million over four years. So how are we going to get the 300 cameras rolled out in quick succession to meet the 2024 cut-off date?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EAnd can the Minister please allude to and give some insights to this House how the coastal commercial fishing fleet, which is going to be the lion\u2019s share of the fleet affected by the camera roll-out reality, what technologies she sees that industry adopting on the back of the facilitation of these cameras, in regards to alleviating the 50 more or less bycatch which will see them fall into a prosecutorial reality, which is quite substantial?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EThe third question I have for the Minister\u2014and maybe, as she acclimates to the role, she may not yet be aware of it\u2014but what does a licensed fish receiver for unwanted bycatch look like, when the average fish for unwanted bycatch by the kilogram for the costing to the individual commercial fishermen is about 30c in the kilo, when those that are inside the quota management system by return are about a dollar? Can she ascertain what current technology would look like to alleviate that, and what these licensed receivers are, as a reality? If she could speak to that. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022faea8fdf89c64c2f99589ef8602c1530\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022faea8fdf89c64c2f99589ef8602c1530\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to join with others in congratulating the Minister on her new role and her good luck at being able to roll out the discussion document so early during her term of office. But I want to just follow up a little bit on the previous question relating to cameras. At select committee, the Minister\u2019s predecessor said, and I quote from the select committee\u2019s report, \u201CThe company responsible for delivering the cameras has encountered technical problems. The company had intended to deliver in March 2023, but the date has been pushed back to November 2023.\u201D So I\u2019m keen to know what progress has been made on meeting that new belated deadline, and what the Minister\u2019s intending to do, from her point of view, to hurry that along.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EAnother question, maybe, Madam Chair, or do you want to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002289fb5de0707e4e63b115626c234c3898\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289fb5de0707e4e63b115626c234c3898\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if the member wants the call\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ea01b1d961642db894714de9b9bc9fa\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think the Minister is making her mind up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022a55cfb211cd5475eb19ea731f918c86a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a55cfb211cd5475eb19ea731f918c86a\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Well, I\u2019ll answer some of those questions on the cameras on boats. So Hon Scott Simpson, thank you for acknowledging my good luck there. But you are asking about the arrangements with the fixed-price contract that Fisheries has with Spark. There has been a delay and there continues to be a delay, so that is work that the ministry is working on extensively at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffaee675c190403a946d14cba6267d1c\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Well, what\u2019s the Minister going to do about it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f5e8a3744af49f5ae1c2241d17de76f\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: So what\u2019s the Minister going to do about it? We\u2019re working very hard with Spark to deal with those issues. The issues relate to some of the technology required for those cameras, and Fisheries is doing a lot of the work that you can do that doesn\u2019t require that specific technology in the meantime. So if you\u2019re on a boat, for instance, and you\u2019re putting cameras in, then you need a whole lot of kit to help that isn\u2019t the camera and isn\u2019t the technology\u2014that\u2019s the issue. So that work is continuing to happen at pace so that all of the cameras, when they are installed and with all the relevant technology, will be as close to the proposed times as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThe southern member, Penny Simmonds, alluded to some people in the House being from the beautiful Stewart Island / Rakiura, if I\u2019m correct. A couple of things I\u2019d say in terms of Bluff oysters: obviously, it\u2019s iconic fishery, and it\u2019s surveyed regularly, but it is dredge fishing, so it does have some environmental impacts, but those are closely monitored. In terms of the area as well, the wider fisheries around the island, there is obviously some very important aquaculture there as well, and some moves for further out to have some open ocean aquaculture as well. So it\u2019s a great place for, hopefully, both the fish and the fishing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u002226f5095ea34f4611893acce77c8868a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226f5095ea34f4611893acce77c8868a0\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I congratulate the Minister on getting the portfolio, which she\u2019ll do a very good job in, I\u2019m sure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EJono Ridler has just come ashore on Campbells Bay, having swum for over 100 kilometres from Aotea Great Barrier because of his concern about the health of the Hauraki Gulf \u2013 T\u012Bkapa Moana. It\u2019s an awe-inspiring swim, huge endurance, swimming continuously for 33 hours, and he\u2019s done that because he knows, like so many others, that the health of the Hauraki Gulf is declining. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EFisheries New Zealand has put out a Hauraki Gulf fisheries management plan, so that has a number of actions that it goes through. There have been hundreds of people calling for an end to bottom trawling in the gulf. That fisheries plan talks about excluding bottom trawling and Danish seining except for defined areas or corridors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003ESo my question is: what does the Minister say to Jono Ridler after this epic swim to celebrate the gulf and to call for action? Is she open to excluding bottom trawling and Danish seining from all the gulf because of the heavy impacts on the seabed, in recognition of repeated state of the environment reports which have charted the decline of the gulf, and doing something concrete to actually act towards restoring it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022beb3323e178f4550a6e1f79d81c27354\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022beb3323e178f4550a6e1f79d81c27354\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I would also like to acknowledge Jono Ridler. Being able to swim 100 kilometres is a phenomenal feat, and obviously he is very passionate about that beautiful part of our country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EMy understanding is that the fishery plan discusses these corridors and that the details around those corridors of where they might go and how wide they will be is being investigated by a technical advice group at the moment, and so we\u2019re awaiting the advice from that group about the environmental impacts of any trawling and where it is\u2014remembering, of course, that there is a large area in the gulf that is free from bottom trawling already. I\u2019m very interested in obtaining all the details about where some bottom trawling might be needed and why it\u2019s needed but also the environmental effects that that bottom trawling would have. So I am waiting for that advice and it is a matter that I\u2019m very interested in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00222ae8b53f4da144fbafa990b6f168eca2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ae8b53f4da144fbafa990b6f168eca2\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Following on that note, the Hauraki Gulf is the nation\u2019s most intensely recreated piece of marine space, and all the indicators\u2014in terms of its health\u2014are heading south; none of them are improving particularly. I\u2019m interested to know what she intends to do, as the new Minister, to make up for the failing of her predecessors in terms of implementing the Sea Change plan that has been literally sitting gathering dust for the entire term of this Government\u2019s administration?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002206c5890712724012a138b963ac1b9345\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206c5890712724012a138b963ac1b9345\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to assure the member that I am also very keen for the implementation of the Sea Change plan and the work on the Hauraki Gulf, and I\u2019ve been talking with officials\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fee10eab77734549a0333843ca7d994a\u0022\u003EHon Eugenie Sage\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4c5296a398c4f4288635db3a8eda7a3\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014about that work, and work has been progressing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbabbe73954841c1b4a153309c429d4b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Eugenie Sage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8d47cf4d11e4deebdd7936f7626a01c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8d47cf4d11e4deebdd7936f7626a01c\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E My apologies to the Minister. So there are proposals that came out of the Sea Change plan in revitalising the Gulf\u2014which the Labour Government announced in 2021\u2014for 19 marine protected areas. Is it likely that there will be special legislation introduced before the House rises at the end of August to help establish those marine protected areas? And what progress has been made in the year under review, 2021-22, on establishing marine protected areas elsewhere in Aotearoa New Zealand? This graphic, thanks to James Frankham of New Zealand Geographic, shows Aotearoa New Zealand\u2019s dismal position in terms of marine protection. The areas of grey are countries\u2019 Exclusive Economic Zones (EEZ). The areas of blue are the areas that are protected. The United States, on the right of the diagram, has an EEZ larger than New Zealand\u2019s and 26 percent of its national waters are protected. The United Kingdom on the right: 39 percent of its EEZ is protected. Aotearoa New Zealand, at the very bottom with a pin-hole size of blue: less than 1 percent\u2014in fact 0.4 percent of our EEZ is protected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe Minister is very aware of proposals for the south-east Otago network of marine protected areas, which the former Ministers of Conservation and Fisheries committed to progressing in May 2019. Those proposals started in 2014. Is the Minister confident that there will be any progress before the election? And what, if anything, has Fisheries New Zealand, working with the Department of Conservation, done or is going to do to reform the Marine Reserves Act, which is long overdue for review?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002245dfe1c0c5114db9a12072a29eb4e474\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245dfe1c0c5114db9a12072a29eb4e474\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. As the member knows, there has been a lot of work over the past five years that the member has been involved with as well, and that work continues, and I\u2019m very interested in it and how it progresses, and want it to progress as fast as it can. There are some complications to these areas, which is why it hasn\u2019t been done, but, as I say, I think there will be work in this space before the term is out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u002274eac9fdfb9348b5aec1a401909af805\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274eac9fdfb9348b5aec1a401909af805\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Given the opportunities that exist in our marine space for further advancement of aquaculture, but also the risks that come with that from arrival from foreign vessels and biosecurity issues and things of that nature: in the year under review, officials told the select committee that no fishing vessels had been turned away and that there had been two cruise ships that had been directed to leave and another five were subject to restricted itineraries. That strikes me as not being a particularly large number. I\u2019m interested to know what the Minister is doing in relation with the Ministry for Primary Industries officials about better monitoring biosecurity issues relating to our marine space, particularly as it poses a threat to our burgeoning aquaculture sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EAnd then following on while the Minister is receiving advice, I\u2019m also keen to have the Minister\u2019s view in relation to the closure of the Coromandel scallop beds: what is her view on that, how long does she anticipate that that will need to remain closed, and is she anticipating any other shellfish closed areas, particularly around the Coromandel but in other parts of the country as well? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00223eb4c7f5517e4eacaaaa5dacdecec441\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223eb4c7f5517e4eacaaaa5dacdecec441\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. On the biosecurity issue, I\u2019ll note that I\u2019m not the Minister for Biosecurity, but certainly there is work being done. And, absolutely, the biosecurity risk to aquaculture is huge, and there\u2019s a lot of work going into that and also there\u2019s work into being able to turn around more of the boats. On the scallop beds, I haven\u2019t been briefed at the moment on whether that\u2019s likely to change soon. So I don\u2019t have anything else to say on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022 data-id=\u0022429f3b2f198842929935474309ae88dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022429f3b2f198842929935474309ae88dd\u0022\u003EHon EUGENIE SAGE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. On the topic of aquaculture, in the Primary Production Committee\u2019s report, it notes that the former Minister had a goal which was set in the aquaculture strategy for aquaculture to earn $3 billion for New Zealand by 2035. So there\u2019s a huge effort that the Government is putting into promoting aquaculture, expanding aquaculture. The Minister is very familiar with spatial planning on land, so what effort is being undertaken by Fisheries New Zealand to promote spatial planning for the marine space so that we don\u2019t just see aquaculture use and development of the coastal marine area proceeding apace without also ensuring that there is marine protection progressing at a similar rate, given that we haven\u2019t seen one new marine protected area created in the last five years? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e122e0e6-61c6-4d17-9a79-6ad2ac7d127e\u0022\u003EThe Government is pushing ahead with aquaculture and there\u2019s a lot being done to promote its expansion, but we really do need to see the sort of spatial planning that happened in the Sea Change exercise about identifying areas for protection at the same time as areas are identified for aquaculture. Is she confident that the M\u014Dt\u012Bt\u012B decision, which enabled regional councils to identify areas which should be protected from the impacts of fishing, is a sound one and should form a basis for the work of regional councils under the Resource Management Act reform?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8128f743ba4446b8ce7447a69152038\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8128f743ba4446b8ce7447a69152038\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Although the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries doesn\u2019t have responsibility for immigration matters, I\u2019m interested to hear her views around capacity issues within the commercial fishing sector, particularly around the inability of quota holders to employ people from other countries to work fishing boats, and that are not able to fulfil their quota allocations, simply because they can\u2019t get staff. I\u2019m interested to know whether the Minister will engage with the Minister of Immigration for alleviate that issue, and, if so, when?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u0022595cc912ca7d4bca936e9cd808c23e42\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022595cc912ca7d4bca936e9cd808c23e42\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Minister, very quickly, of the $68 million that was appropriated for the four years, can you tell this committee tonight, if you can, how much of that money has so far been spent? And when will the cameras\u2014the 300 that were due to be installed\u2014be completed and installed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee819ecac23149f1ad62af577845c330\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee819ecac23149f1ad62af577845c330\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Going through some of those topics\u2014thank you to the Hon Eugenie Sage for pointing out the ambitious goal of $3 billion in aquaculture by 2035. That\u2019s something that I support, as well. I note the plea there for good spatial planning to both marry up the new aquaculture, and particularly if it\u2019s\u2014I\u2019m assuming from the question\u2014open ocean, and to see if there\u2019s any protected space as consequence, when you plan those things together. So I know Fisheries New Zealand is, of course, interested in the spatial planning, as the member mentioned, that has been done in the Hauraki Gulf and that\u2019s seen as best practice that should continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EIn terms of the M\u014Dt\u012Bt\u012B case law, I have not heard anything to the contrary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThe Hon Scott Simpson was asking about the capacity of the workforce, and Fisheries New Zealand has been working with industry, which is part, also, of the industry transformation plan. But there has been work as well with immigration officials, and that will, no doubt, continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThe issue of the cameras and how much has been spent: the $68 million is a fixed price with Spark, so I won\u2019t comment on exactly how much has been spent at the moment, but it is a fixed-price contract. In terms of the dates, Fisheries New Zealand and I do want that to be as soon as it can be done. But at the moment, we have a technical issue that Spark is addressing as quickly as they can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0f32ce2921d4f368783599822af37d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0f32ce2921d4f368783599822af37d5\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. The responsibility for bringing the Kermadec Ocean Sanctuary Bill back to this House rests with the Minister for the Environment, but I\u2019m keen to know, wearing the hat that she does as oceans and fisheries Minister, what advocacy she will bring to her Government to ensure that that legislation is passed before the end of this Government\u2019s term in office.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022cdf7bc9453fd472fab6380695fa7bab4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cdf7bc9453fd472fab6380695fa7bab4\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E I am happy to confirm to the member that I will work with the Minister for the Environment and the Minister of Conservation on progressing that longstanding issue, but, as the member knows, it\u2019s a complicated issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022dbdf10db3b1549d4bce116696dc19af3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dbdf10db3b1549d4bce116696dc19af3\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E The issues relating to bottom trawling are ever-present in any discussion and debate around oceans and marine space. There has been little activity from the current Government in terms of progressing issues relating to bottom trawling, and the Minister gave a bit of an indication about some views in the Hauraki Gulf\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec6dcc7518134ec7bd38b53b3eafc018\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec6dcc7518134ec7bd38b53b3eafc018\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry, but, members, our time with the Minister for Oceans and Fisheries has ended. Thank you, Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dc54d6f1e76c494bbfba82df7505ab92\u0022\u003EHousing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00226bb31c99af59405e8d3f984056b76ace\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226bb31c99af59405e8d3f984056b76ace\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister of Housing is now available for 30 minutes to respond to members\u2019 questions. I\u2019ll just take a moment for the Minister to take the seat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022 data-id=\u00229a81d299601845d7b6f8a9290d357c1e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a81d299601845d7b6f8a9290d357c1e\u0022\u003EANGIE WARREN-CLARK (Chairperson of the Social Services and Community Committee):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Chair, thank you. It\u2019s a pleasure to lead off the debate for the annual review 2021 for housing and urban development as the chair of the Social Services and Community Committee. I\u2019d like to thank the clerks, the officials, and the select committee members for their professional and comprehensive efforts during the annual review period. I also want to thank the Minister of Housing for appearing before us and making herself available in the sessions that we held.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EDuring this annual review session, we heard from K\u0101inga Ora, the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development\u2014HUD, from now on\u2014and T\u0101maki Redevelopment Company Ltd. The Auditor-General gave K\u0101inga Ora a \u201Cgood\u201D rating on its controls and systems. The committee heard that they had achieved 61 percent of its measurable performance indicators. It met all of its targets for urban regeneration, development, general housing supply, and supporting first-home ownership.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EThe Public Housing Plan 2021-2024 has set a goal of having approximately 81,000 public housing places and approximately 6,500 transitional housing places. We heard that, currently, there are around 77,500 public houses and 5,000 transitional places, and we heard that K\u0101inga Ora delivered 1,815 newly built homes in 2021-22.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EWe heard about Project Velocity. This project aims to reduce building times. We heard how K\u0101inga Ora looked at a multitude of factors that contribute to building a home. They concluded that construction systems should be reviewed as a whole-of-system process. Consequently, we heard that they have reduced the pre-construction phase from 18 months to 33 days for projects that include up to 16 homes. This includes the resource consent process. The project has also reduced billable hours from 1,100 to 450 hours. K\u0101inga Ora declared that building times have also reduced from 100 to 67 days. They intend to use this model for projects over the next two to three years, with a goal of constructing 4,000 homes annually.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EThe Auditor-General rated HUD as \u201Cgood\u201D in all three areas, and we note the work that HUD have done to make good progress on its performance measures and reporting. We heard about a number of HUD programmes, one being the place-based approach that is being used in some areas. This approach looks at a variety of factors to help planners make the best decision for the area. HUD advised that for a thriving, sustainable housing system, they need to start with people and community, and work backwards. They advised the committee how they trialled this approach in Hastings. We learnt six months ago, 150 families were in emergency housing, and now there are 50 families. The place-based approach is now being progressed around the country. We heard other examples as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EMAIHI Ka Ora\u2014housing for M\u0101ori\u2014is the National M\u0101ori Housing Strategy, which the Minister spoke on. She mentioned how the committed and targeted funding will see an improvement in housing outcomes for M\u0101ori. The ministry told us how they have prototypes in four regions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EWe also took the opportunity to talk to the ministry about healthy homes standards. They advised us that, from their annual survey, 85 percent of landlords are now either fully compliant or had started the process of work to be compliant. HUD also let us know that by working with Te Whatu Ora, they identify eligible families and help them to make their homes warmer and safer. They noted that this work is showing benefits such as reduced hospitalisation and less illness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EAlso, we heard from Tamaki Redevelopment Company\u2014TRC. The Auditor-General rated them \u201Cvery good\u201D in all areas. They spoke to the committee on a number of items, particularly about supporting people into work. They operate the T\u0101maki Jobs and Skills Hub in partnership with the Auckland Business Chamber. TRC advised us about providing warm, dry, healthy homes with 85 percent compliance, and 25 percent to be completed by the 1 June 2023 deadline.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e60c1237-5e2d-4d0a-9678-ab10db67d1b7\u0022\u003EThe Social Services and Community Committee, therefore, recommends that the annual review report for housing 2021 be accepted. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u00227ade603da72e41e0b0aa74f0da49eb0f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ade603da72e41e0b0aa74f0da49eb0f\u0022\u003ETAMA POTAKA (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E Ng\u0101 mihi matakoakoa o te p\u014D roa nei.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E[Pleasant greetings on this long night.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EAnd I always acknowledge my brother in arms from Hamilton East, Jamie Strange. Kia ora, chiefs. The right to adequate housing is well articulated in a number of international rights documents: the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, and of course the Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. As a country, we\u2019re failing to facilitate conditions where those rights can be fully expressed by all New Zealanders. Tragic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThe housing system is broken, particularly for the most vulnerable Kiwis. I can refer to all the stats that can move hearts and minds in this regard: over 3,000 households in emergency housing arrangements and 25,000 or so households, wh\u0101nau, waiting for social housing\u2014a lot of whom actually live in the Waikato and Hamilton West. Now, various agencies continue to deliver results, especially under programmes started by Nick Smith and others of our great National Party like the Land for Housing programme\u2014kei te mihi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EHowever, my observations over years of being actually involved at the pounamu-face of housing in tribal and private enterprise are instructive. The numbers, particularly with M\u0101ori and Pasifika and young people, are absolutely disturbing. The appropriations for housing have led to some unusual results\u2014unusual accountabilities. Now, Ihum\u0101tao in South Auckland is a great example of that. A significant protest and $30 million appropriated, ultimately for the Land for Housing programme, and since then\u2014over two years ago\u2014we have not heard of or seen any major planning to take place to actually deliver housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003ESo one thing that I want to find out a bit more about tonight is: when do we expect housing being actually (\u0101) planned at Ihum\u0101tao, and (\u0113) built there to help address the broken housing system that we all see?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022c016eb66a50f48788888d595ad655cc3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c016eb66a50f48788888d595ad655cc3\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m very happy to be joined tonight by two of the fantastic housing team in Willie Jackson and Marama Davidson, and we will share some of the responses to questions that are here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EBut it was refreshing to hear a member from the National Party acknowledge the housing crisis we have and ask to talk about the statistics that led to this. I\u2019d just like to throw some out here for this debate that we\u2019re going to have on Estimates, and one of those is that one-in-seven of the public houses that we have in New Zealand have been built by our Government since 2017. An extraordinary statistic when we consider that we have been building State houses in this country since the first Labour Government in the 1930s.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI think this speaks to the fact that there has been a deficit of commitment in certainly the decade preceding our Government coming to power. I am proud to say that since we\u2019ve come into Government, 11,830 public housing places have been added to the stock. I\u2019ll put that against the 1,500 fewer houses across both community housing providers and Housing New Zealand that the National Party finished up Government in 2017 with. They came into Government in 2008 and there were 1,500 fewer when they went out of Government in 2017. They did not add public housing. It wasn\u2019t just the loss of those 1,500 houses; it was the failure to build or add to the stock for nearly a decade that is the cause of our housing crisis that we are facing today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EBut we are seeing the green shoots of change. We are seeing that we are finally repairing the damage of a decade of extracting dividend from Housing New Zealand\u2014$500,000,000 by the National Party\u2014rather than building houses for the most vulnerable New Zealanders. We are a Government that has turned that around. We are starting to see the green shoots of change, and I\u2019m incredibly proud of our sector and what they are achieving and what we are achieving together. But I\u2019ll ask Minister Jackson to address some of the other questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u00226993a5683ffc49ad921d53558152f27b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226993a5683ffc49ad921d53558152f27b\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Associate Minister of Housing (M\u0101ori Housing)):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m just responding to that member, Tama Potaka. That member should know better, because this is a unique situation in Ihum\u0101tao and I know most of the members over there wouldn\u2019t have a clue in terms of by M\u0101ori, for M\u0101ori solutions. The member Tama Potaka should, actually, know a lot better, having been involved with many of those people in Ihum\u0101tao. Just because Tama Potaka and his National Party want houses built straight away doesn\u2019t mean that it\u2019s going to happen. It\u2019s a five-year agreement\u2014a five-year agreement. For the first year, when you have different mana whenua groups working with the K\u012Bngitanga, it\u2019s not easy. You\u2019ve got Makaurau Marae; we\u2019ve got some of Minister Davidson\u2019s best friends down there, all Greenpeace and protesters. Let\u2019s be clear about this. You know this, Tama Potaka: none of them want to build a house. Let\u2019s be clear: none of them want to build a house. So you put them with Tainui and you put them with Tukoroirangi Morgan\u2014someone who worked very closely with Tama Potaka\u2014and K\u012Bngitanga want to build houses. This is not an easy mix, no matter whether it is us or the National Party. You\u2019re trying to bring them together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s why we came up with a brilliant solution\u2014brilliant, I might say\u2014probably worked up by Minister Woods and our Minister of Finance. We\u2019ll give our people five years\u2014five years\u2014and they\u2019ll work it through; not on Tama Potaka\u2019s time line or the National Party\u2019s time line but on a M\u0101ori time line that Tama Potaka should respect more, given that he came from that area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EHis shocking comments on M\u0101ori TV about mana whenua getting their act together\u2014who does Tama Potaka think he is? All of a sudden he\u2019s telling mana whenua, his uncles, what the story should be. Shame on Tama Potaka, I say. We\u2019ve got a strategy. Ihum\u0101tao is on track. Twelve months\u2014yes, they haven\u2019t built any houses, but they will over the next four years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u002267c556a04f514083a9943eef7638b401\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267c556a04f514083a9943eef7638b401\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I\u2019d like to question the Minister in the chair, Megan Woods, about urban land supply, because, ultimately, what we\u2019re talking about here is making housing more affordable\u2014and I just want to leave aside the Minister\u2019s highly political comments about social housing supply. Actually, we need houses across the continuum. We need more rentals, we need more social houses, we need more community houses, we need more market houses, and, actually, I think we need to focus on that as the solution, because that is the ultimate answer to everything when it comes to housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to direct the Minister to a recent report of the Infrastructure Commission which finds that restrictions on urban land supply at the edges of our cities significantly raise the cost of housing. This is a very recent report from the Infrastructure Commission. They found that urban boundaries add over $600,000 to the cost of sections at Auckland\u2019s fringes and around $250,000 at the edge of Wellington. This is allied with work done by Treasury last year as part of the housing affordability work that they\u2019ve been doing. I think it was October last year in which Treasury released a report that finds that, actually, the big driver of the house price growth in New Zealand over the last 20 to 30 years is very restrictive urban land supply\u2014allied with other things, but the big thing is land supply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ETo be fair to this Government, Phil Twyford, her predecessor in this portfolio, kicked off a series of work around urban land supply, urban development programme, but I think it\u2019d be fair to say\u2014and this would be including the period of time we\u2019re talking about\u2014that work has, I think, fizzled out a bit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI\u2019m not trying to be too pejorative, but we don\u2019t hear Ministers and the Government talking much about freeing up land. We\u2019ve done some stuff on density\u2014that\u2019s great, and we\u2019ve done a cross-party arrangement around that\u2014but I would put it to the House that we need to go up in our cities but we also need to go out. Because once you go out, you get competitive urban land markets and the price of land goes down and the price of housing is more affordable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo I wonder if the Minister could elucidate for the House what the Government\u2019s doing around creating competitive urban land markets and what the work programme is from here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022185fbc47d4314984b296872d5f27ec48\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022185fbc47d4314984b296872d5f27ec48\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m happy to give a brief response to that. In terms of the work that the Government has been doing, it\u2019s been actually addressing the issue of how we have truly competitive land markets, and that\u2019s about having build-ready land at the fringes. It\u2019s not sufficient to just say that you\u2019ve got land that can be zoned; if that land lacks in the infrastructure in order to build on it, then it is not actually adding to a competitive land market on the urban fringe. That\u2019s exactly why the Infrastructure Acceleration Fund, along with some of the shovel-ready projects that we\u2019ve done, have been around just that, in terms of creating build-ready land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI think that\u2019s one of the problems that we\u2019ve had in New Zealand: we\u2019ve concentrated too much about measuring how much land is there that\u2019s zoned and, actually, if that land is not build-ready, then it isn\u2019t doing anything to increase housing supply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u00221dfce3e131e644d69eb5382c6a9a9678\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221dfce3e131e644d69eb5382c6a9a9678\u0022\u003EBROOKE VAN VELDEN (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. You know, when I go around New Zealand, I\u2019m talking to many, many people who are asking, \u201CWhy is it that the Government is spending more and more of our money, and yet we don\u2019t feel like we\u2019re actually getting any benefits from it?\u201D We\u2019ve got more and more money being spent, taken from hard-working taxpayers, and yet they don\u2019t feel like there is added benefit for where that money is going.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EI wanted to ask the Minister of Housing about K\u0101inga Ora\u2019s number of people that it employs. Since 2019, the number of staff at K\u0101inga Ora has increased to 3,235 fulltime-equivalent staff now. That\u2019s an increase of 1,400 people in a space of three years. Of that, there\u2019s 400 managers, and the managers are on an average of $175,000 each. Yet we\u2019re not actually clear what benefit this is. There\u2019s been a 74 percent increase in the number of staff at K\u0101inga Ora, and yet the number of homes that K\u0101inga Ora manages has only increased by 7 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EHow is it acceptable that there\u2019s so much blowout in bureaucracy and how much money we\u2019re spending on staff at K\u0101inga Ora, when the number of homes is only going up by 7 percent and the number of staff is going up by 74 percent? Where is the added benefit for all of that money to New Zealand Kiwi taxpayers? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u002275e3f7be37714ce58d2de8f9adce4b0f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275e3f7be37714ce58d2de8f9adce4b0f\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E Just a very quick answer to that. The added benefit to New Zealanders is the largest build of public housing since the 1970s\u2014the biggest investment in public housing in a generation. This is not simply about an agency that manages a rental portfolio; this is an agency that is building the houses. It is an agency that is helping us solve a housing crisis. So the member is quite correct: it\u2019s not the sales unit that it was under the previous National-ACT Government; it\u2019s not an agency just set up to sell off an asset and asset-strip. It\u2019s an agency that\u2019s set up to build houses and to make sure that we\u2019ve got a Government that is doing its bit to solve a housing crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u0022362b1d9f9c734b9b9cfe717d45b01a1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022362b1d9f9c734b9b9cfe717d45b01a1f\u0022\u003ETAMA POTAKA (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E In the building of houses, the acquisition of land, and the implementation of civil works and infrastructure, one of my observations over the last three or four years is that K\u0101inga Ora gets into competition with iwi, with tribes, with M\u0101ori organisations, and with private developers to actually acquire land, rather than help facilitate those entities to build and deliver housing for the community. I\u2019m interested in the Minister responding to the following question: when will K\u0101inga Ora stop buying land, driving up land values\u2014particularly in the middle of towns like Kerikeri\u2014and sometimes competing with iwi and others, making it the biggest buyer in the country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u0022cddc3e55b81846b197b85be4ae780ffb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cddc3e55b81846b197b85be4ae780ffb\u0022\u003EBROOKE VAN VELDEN (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. At the same time that we have a Government housing agency asking for $3 billion to compete with the private sector, the Government housing agency has not been doing its actual job. I\u2019ve been looking through the rent arrears at K\u0101inga Ora over the past three years. The amount of money owed in rent arrears has gone from $2 million to $17 million in uncollected rent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003ENow, the Government thinks it\u2019s kind by not asking people to pay their rent. But that money has to come from somewhere and somebody else is forking out for that\u2014and that\u2019s hard-working Kiwi taxpayers. How is it acceptable that this Government is spending so much money focusing on competing with private developers to build homes\u2014bidding up the price of land and making things more unaffordable for Kiwi taxpayers\u2014and, at the same time, it is not doing its job to collect rent that\u2019s actually owed under K\u0101inga Ora? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8c9fa26af404ebc89f3d87918c99f3c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225a797c9e-cc29-454e-b348-6a415e930295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8c9fa26af404ebc89f3d87918c99f3c\u0022\u003ETERISA NGOBI (Labour\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Can I just say thank you to the Minister for reminding us about the massive house build, and thank you for the thousand houses in \u014Ctaki. But I\u2019d like to ask the Minister to talk about what\u2019s happening in terms of the support and what\u2019s been rolled out with iwi M\u0101ori to support by M\u0101ori, for M\u0101ori approaches.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2eac30363f5460fbd926a67ef5308f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2eac30363f5460fbd926a67ef5308f8\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Associate Minister of Housing (M\u0101ori Housing)):\u003C/span\u003E A fantastic time for M\u0101ori. We\u2019ve had more investment in M\u0101ori in the last couple of years than the Opposition put in\u2014in terms of M\u0101ori\u2014over their previous nine years. You know, we understand in terms of the solutions that are needed. It\u2019s not just about a house; it\u2019s about the flow on and what\u2019s happening with the wh\u0101nau. So we\u2019re able to apply our other kaupapa initiatives along with some of the housing projects like Wh\u0101nau Ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EWhen you look at Whai K\u0101inga Whai Oranga, we\u2019re talking about a $730 million investment. This Government was very innovative. It pulled together the two agencies, our mainstream agency and Te Puni K\u014Dkiri, and we set ambitious goals: 1,000 houses, to undertake repairs and maintenance to 700 homes, and to provide infrastructure support also for 2,700 homes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EOn top of that, we\u2019ve put an investment into providers, and I want to compliment our Minister for the way she has worked with iwi. She\u2019s been a real role model in terms of how Ministers can embrace iwi. We\u2019ve seen some wonderful set-ups, particularly our first prototype\u2014which was in Taranaki, with Jamie Tuuta in Ka Uruora\u2014which received $55 million to provide for up to 172 homes and 203 infrastructure sites for wh\u0101nau in Taranaki and across the motu.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EThen we went down the East Coast with Willie Te Aho and Toit\u016B Tair\u0101whiti, which received $55 million to deliver 150 new homes for wh\u0101nau and 150 infrastructure sites across Te Tai R\u0101whiti. I again compliment the Minister. You know, Willie Te Aho is not the easiest person to deal with\u2014can be a bit volatile, my cousin, but we love him and he gets things done. He gets things done and we mihi to him for that. He, alongside the people of the coast, are really turning things out\u2014got a neat woman with him, I think. That\u2019s probably his saving grace, with Annette down there supporting him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ENg\u0101ti Kahungunu\u2014they\u2019ve received $45.3 million to deliver up to 131 homes. And we\u2019ve got the chairman, Bayden Barber, down there. In the Tai Tokerau\u2014and we mihi to Ben Dalton for his wonderful work in facilitating what we\u2019re doing up there\u2014$55 million in terms of a prototype that will deliver 80 to 100 new builds. So you just have to compliment this Government for the way we\u2019ve looked after Te Ao M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u002233219d4400ed4097837d226dbb6bbccd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002233219d4400ed4097837d226dbb6bbccd\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks very much, Mr Chair. One of the things that\u2019s happened in the review period we\u2019re talking about is the interest deductibility changes that the Government made have started to bite. Of course, 1 April just gone, they started to bite even more for many landlords out there. Of course, interest rates have risen very steeply in the last 12 to 18 months as well. So the twin combination of the phased removal of the ability for landlords to deduct interest as an expense, allied with very steep rises in interest rates, have put a real crunch on a lot of people. The material that the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development survey in terms of the rental market does show, actually, that that is a real pain point for landlords.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019d just ask the Minister whether or not the Government has given any consideration to an alleviation of those interest deductibility changes, because I think it\u2019s now fairly clear that that removal of interest as a legitimate expense for rental property owners is putting upward pressure on rents, and at a time when we have a real cost of living crisis, that is really hitting families hard. We\u2019re at 50 percent now; next year, it\u2019s 25 percent; the year after, it\u2019s zero. So I just ask the Minister: is any relief on the way for mum and dad landlords who can no longer deduct interest as an expense?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00226fb87fa7a31148a3950d34a430b0d876\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226fb87fa7a31148a3950d34a430b0d876\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m happy to give just a very quick response to that. Has consideration been given to bringing back interest deductibility for landlords? The answer is that there is interest deductibility for landlords, of course; there is interest deductibility for landlords that want to help us solve the housing crisis, that want to add to the housing stock. So new builds have a 20-year exemption and are eligible for interest deductibility. We haven\u2019t seen the over 200,000 building consents that we\u2019ve seen during our time in Government happen by accident; it\u2019s because there\u2019s a programme of intentional policies around ensuring that we are, for the first time in a generation, putting all the efforts into increasing supply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIn terms of it driving up rents, unfortunately the facts just don\u2019t match the member\u2019s arguments. If we have a look at the year-on-year rental increases, it\u2019s either 2.3 or 2.7 percent\u2014I don\u2019t have the statistics sitting right in front of me; 2.7, my officials are telling me, thank you\u2014for the 12 months to March 2023. You put this against wage growth for the same period, which is in the 7 percents. So what we can see is that rents are\u2014and that is new rents; I think that\u2019s a really important point to note\u2014actually rising at a much lower rate than wages are. So the arguments don\u2019t stack up there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWe also see the number of rental properties entering the market continues to grow. There was around a 3.1 percent increase of rentals available in the market over that year. So the narrative that the member is trying to run\u2014that we\u2019ve got fewer rentals and rents are escalating at a rate that we haven\u2019t seen before\u2014simply is not correct. The evidence shows that not to be the case, and, in fact, if we stack that up against previous periods when the National Government was in power, we see much higher rates of rental growth and actually far fewer rental properties, as a proportion, entering the market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u0022064ca963149d4fa28cc47cf4706b165d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022064ca963149d4fa28cc47cf4706b165d\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. As I speak to the Aucklanders in the room, I know that many of us were impacted by recent floods in January. I just wondered if the Minister could talk to how K\u0101inga Ora\u2019s large-scale projects fared in this year\u2019s flood events.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4d57578163f4cd1befaad847bc248c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4d57578163f4cd1befaad847bc248c2\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E What good news we have out of some of the large-scale projects (LSPs). The member will be particularly familiar with some of the works that were carried out in Northcote. In terms of some of the work that\u2019s been done is that new development, where, previously, that was an area that, without the flood mitigation work that we put in the town centre, the local area, the other properties in that neighbourhood probably would have the flooded in something like the Auckland Anniversary flood event.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat we saw was, actually, the whole neighbourhood drained in 15 hours; we didn\u2019t see neighbouring properties flooded. That is because K\u0101inga Ora, through its LSPs, is putting the investment into those neighbourhoods. We saw that in Northcote, we saw that in Roskill, we saw that in M\u0101ngere. We can see that this is not just about building houses; this is about strengthening and building more resilient neighbourhoods and communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u0022723a4acd239b4ec8945f439ddbb301c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022723a4acd239b4ec8945f439ddbb301c4\u0022\u003EBROOKE VAN VELDEN (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to come back to the wasteful spending of this Government and the fact that so many Kiwis are asking where their money is going, and what do they get for it. We\u2019ve seen the number of staff at K\u0101inga Ora increase, but that\u2019s not the only cost. Is it acceptable that the recruitment spend on advertising since 2019, when it was $100,000, has gone up in three years to around $500,000? What an increase. This Government finds ways to tax and spend and waste our money. That\u2019s an incredible recruitment spend. Is it worth it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb3171cc780e4c0bada69cbd98b78cb7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb3171cc780e4c0bada69cbd98b78cb7\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I understand that concludes our time that we have allocated this evening for the Housing annual review debate. I move, That the committee report progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EProgress to be reported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002240ac2d3dafd545aa8ec3b917fa32210a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240ac2d3dafd545aa8ec3b917fa32210a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Appropriation (2021/22 Confirmation and Validation) Bill and reports progress. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EReported adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226d1430bfb35a45109920d4813f059d12\u0022\u003ECounter-Terrorism Acts (Designations and Control Orders) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aaa0797242494d94bd86603caca5f430\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u0022d0e8bb59f376497bb73941978f68e809\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d0e8bb59f376497bb73941978f68e809\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Minister of Conservation)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Justice: I present a legislative statement on the Counter-Terrorism Acts (Designations and Control Orders) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bc1e433426a41aeae1b78b43bc2b008\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215ff90682cd440e6833f723d4365b002\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Counter-Terrorism Acts (Designations and Control Orders) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EIn recent years, we have seen the evolving nature of terrorism become a serious threat on our shores. Four years on from the terror attack on the Christchurch masjidain and two years since the LynnMall supermarket attack, I want to acknowledge the enduring harm of terror attacks on victims and the wider community; we owe it to them to do everything we can to protect our communities from terrorism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EWe are continuing to assess and update our counter-terrorism legislation to ensure it is fit for purpose; this bill is a step towards that objective. The Government is committed to continuing to respond to the royal commission of inquiry into the Christchurch terror attack, who recommended reviewing all of our counter-terrorism legislation. There has been significant ongoing work by the Government, since the March 15 attacks, to make New Zealand safer and more inclusive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ESome recommendations to the royal commission\u2019s report have been addressed in the short term, while others have taken more consideration. This includes the initial ban of all military style semi-automatic weapons and assault rifles and the establishment of a dedicated firearms unit within police, to take over firearms regulatory activities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EIt also includes the establishment of the Christchurch Call; the Ministry for Ethnic Communities; the Ethnic Communities Graduate Programme; He Whenua Taurika, New Zealand\u2019s Centre of Research Excellence for Preventing and Countering Violent Extremism; He Whenua Taurika\u2019s annual hui; and He Whenua Taurika scholarships, as well as delivering ongoing support and establishment of the Collective Impact Board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EAlso under way is the development of a response outcome framework to monitor the ongoing response to the royal commission of inquiry. This will include identifying goals, ways to measure our success, and the sorts of data we need to monitor to ensure we are on track. Significant assistance has been provided to the most affected, including the families who were living in New Zealand at the time of the attack.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EToday\u2019s bill makes amendments to two counter-terrorism measures: the designation scheme and the control orders regime. These amendments will ensure operational agencies have the right tools to better prevent and respond to terror attacks to individuals who present a risk of committing such attacks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EDesignation: I will start by discussing the changes we are making to the designations regime. The Prime Minister has the power to designate entities and individuals as terrorists, which freezes their assets and makes it a criminal offence to support them. Normally, these expire every three years, after which the Prime Minister would need to review the designation again to see if the entity still poses a terrorist threat. But if a terrorist is already in prison, how can we determine if they still pose a threat? This presents difficulties, as being in prison puts many restrictions on an individual that make it hard to determine whether they still pose a terrorist threat. This bill will address that issue. By pausing the expiry of the terrorist designation when an individual is in prison, we can ensure that the designation will not be revoked while an individual continues to pose a risk. This will prevent imprisoned terrorists from using their funds to support and finance terrorism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EWhile paused, the designation will still be reviewed every three years to ensure it is removed if it is no longer necessary. These amendments to the designation regime will ensure our legislative settings are clear, while also protecting the rights and freedoms of designated individuals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EControl orders: I now turn to the second part of the bill, which makes targeted changes to strengthen and improve the control orders regime. Control orders are civil orders made in the High Court on application by the Commissioner of Police. A control order imposes restrictions on high-risk individuals in the community to prevent them from engaging in further terrorism-related activities. As I have mentioned, the nature of terrorism is evolving. The bill, therefore, makes several targeted changes to reflect this, as well as incorporating some of the lessons learnt from the making of New Zealand\u2019s first control orders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EThe bill broadens the range of precursor offences with a link to terrorism that would make someone eligible for a control order. This responds to concerns about individuals who are coming to the attention of the police, presenting a wide range of concerning behaviour. The bill also extends the eligibility threshold for a control order to include people sentenced to home detention or a community-based sentence for a specified offence, and it enables the concurrence of control orders and post-sentence conditions. The bill also ensures that control order conditions can account for the specific circumstances of each individual by giving judges greater discretion when setting these requirements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ETo balance the need to protect an individual\u2019s privacy while allowing for public reassurance that appropriate action is being taken in respect of individuals who present a terrorism risk, the bill adjusts the current automatic name suppression requirement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ELastly, the bill clarifies the protocols for the management of electronic monitoring requirements to ensure that individuals subject to electronic monitoring as part of a control order condition will be appropriately and effectively managed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EIt is important to note here that while the eligibility criteria is being expanded to a wider range of high-risk individuals, there are several safeguards in the legislation to ensure a control order can only be granted when necessary and where the limitation on the individual is proportionate to the public safety risk. I acknowledge that this bill will not end the debate about the way we define and approach terrorism in Aotearoa. Ultimately, this Government believes that these amendments are necessary to ensure operational agencies are equipped with the most appropriate tools to respond to the changing nature of terrorism. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I\u2019d like to once again thank my colleagues for their support on these important amendments. I appreciate the collaborative approach this House takes to matters of national security and public safety. I would also like to thank the Justice Committee and all those who submitted on the bill. You have ensured that the bill we will pass today strikes the right balance between protecting individual rights and keeping Aotearoa safe from terrorism. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae342faf1072434c826753449b150c0f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae342faf1072434c826753449b150c0f\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1e0f0a4199b4118adc10e5cbd5bfce4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1e0f0a4199b4118adc10e5cbd5bfce4\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (National\u2014Whangapar\u0101oa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Look, firstly, can I acknowledge the Minister that just stood and took the call, Willow-Jean Prime. This is a really important piece of legislation, and when it comes to national security, it should be a priority for any Government. And, of course, the Opposition has taken the position that we must support the Government and work with them. But I\u2019m disappointed that the justice Minister, who has been very good and we\u2019ve dealt with throughout this bill, didn\u2019t get here in time to take the call herself. But I want to acknowledge the member that did take the call, and she did well. So, well done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EIt is a really important piece of legislation. We have worked closely together in the select committee. The Minister also involved us early on in terms of reviewing and having a look at what was being put forward. And we\u2019ve worked well together to make the changes that now the House is happy with, and putting the bill forward. Can I acknowledge the chair of the Justice Committee, who is in the House, Vanushi Walters, who does an excellent job of chairing the committee, and has done a very good job herself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s one issue, and the Minister raised this, and I do want to speak to that. And it is around the royal commission of inquiry into the Christchurch attacks. I think that when I spoke on this through the committee stage, I did highlight the fact that it\u2019s two years since we had that terrible tragedy at LynnMall. But right now I think there\u2019s no greater need to be hyper vigilant around the fact that we have massive confidence and faith in our security agencies, our police\u2014the agencies that are responsible for keeping us safe. But we are in a difficult situation at the moment where vulnerable people are becoming more vulnerable. We know that we\u2019re struggling in dealing with mental health issues, and we know that terrorists look for and recruit those that are most vulnerable. So I think that there needs to be even more of a tighter focus around looking at what\u2019s happening inside our country at the moment around national security. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EIf I can come back to the royal commission of inquiry\u2014this is really important. There are actually only one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight\u2014there\u2019s only been eight recommendations that have actually been completed. The rest are under way. If I go through them: recommendations 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 27, 30, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 38, 39, 40, 41, and 42 are still under way, and that is not acceptable. There has to be some urgency shown towards this. These recommendations have to be implemented. There has been enough time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003EThe three recommendations that we really want to focus on, and just highlight tonight, is recommendation 1: appoint a Minister to lead and coordinate counter-terrorism efforts\u2014we think that\u2019s very important\u2014recommendation 2: establish a new national intelligence and security agency to be able to handle that intelligence and to be able to coordinate across our security services and in law enforcement agencies; and recommendation 4: develop and implement a public-facing counter-terrorism and countering violent extremism strategy. This is critical because at the moment in this country, we have got all sorts of issues and terms we are grappling with: division, freedom of speech issues, protests; people have become polarised. And so, actually, we need to have a mechanism to be able to deal with anything that may flare up and morph into something that, of course, all of us as a country would reject.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003ESo I just encourage the Government to please stay focused, treat this with urgency. It is important. It is serious. Like I said, I would have preferred to have seen the justice Minister here in the House actually taking the call, but we do\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214585a0fdfdc45dd8ac21c8f868a00b2\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and I\u2019d prefer you to now start talking about the bill, Mr Mitchell. You\u2019ve had a good four minutes now, so on the bill, please. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac6acc5ebb59491c872c28cc7814bbf2\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, so I was just responding to the comments that were made by the Minister. But we do support the bill, and we do think that it\u2019s important, and we commend the bill to the House. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022 data-id=\u00226dbee5570fa84a01b23fcdd9021e9fdc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226dbee5570fa84a01b23fcdd9021e9fdc\u0022\u003EVANUSHI WALTERS (Labour\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to take a call at the third reading of this bill, Mr Speaker. I\u2019d like to begin also by recognising Minister Allan, who\u2019s done an exceptional job ushering this bill through the House\u2014and it is a complex area of law\u2014and also by acknowledging Minister Prime, who\u2019s spoken to the bill this evening. I\u2019d like to acknowledge the Justice Committee. We do work very collegially across the House on these important bills, and I think the conversation at committee stage last night reflected some of the tensions that we did have to deal with. So acknowledging my colleagues from the National Party and the ACT Party, as well as Labour, who worked very well. I almost think that we worked in a best-practice way on this bill: we took advice from officials, we then heard from submitters, and then we went back to officials for further advice and clarification.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EThis is a complex area of law, because it requires us to strike a balance between rights and community safety and make some really difficult balance calls. But I think everyone in this House will acknowledge that we\u2019re in complex times and we need to make those difficult calls.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EBut I also do think that there are areas of law that we need to either keep under review or ensure that our eye is persistently on, and I think this is one of those areas, for a number of reasons. The first is the complexity around definitions. A while back, there was a UN Security Council Resolution 2178, which asked States specifically to take action around terrorism and foreign returned fighters, but it quite conspicuously didn\u2019t set out a definition for terrorism. I think what we\u2019re seeing internationally is the domestication of international law, but we\u2019re all starting to grapple with these difficult terms around who is a foreign fighter, who is a returned fighter, what are the boundaries of terrorism. This is a complex space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EI think the other challenge for this area of law is that there\u2019s a certain hybridity to control orders, in that technically they sit in the civil space, but there\u2019s a conceptual flavour about them that gives them a criminal lean, and so the natural questions to ask are what are the proper procedural oversights, etc. In this case, I think we landed on recognising that while section 25 of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act\u2014on criminal charges procedure, isn\u2019t triggered\u2014section 27, which embodies common law principles of natural justice, is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EFinally, I think it\u2019s complex because it\u2019s preventative in its nature. Some of our submitters did dwell on that. But this isn\u2019t the first time that laws have been preventative\u2014they often are. Catherine Hensen points out in her thesis that we find the germ of this concept quite early in justice legal theory. In fact, it\u2019s present in Hobbes\u2019 and Locke\u2019s conception of a social contract, where citizens have to sacrifice some degree of their personal autonomy in exchange for the security provided by the State. This is a difficult area of law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002283dca3a7-93a6-4a78-a313-6fce42ebe49e\u0022\u003EBut I do want to assure everyone in the room and those who are watching that the select committee very diligently went through looking at what the appropriate balance was. The Minister, in the House yesterday, spoke to the gates that you had to step through to be able to be subject to a control order. There are three, the first being that the person must be a relevant person. The fact that that gate had been expanded, but also the fact that the second two gates stood as is\u2014that there needs to be a real risk of engaging in a terrorism-related activity and, finally, that the judge needs to make the call on those particular circumstances. So I\u2019m assured that there are suitable protections in place in this regard. This is a complex area of law, but it is very much needed now. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u00223a30aa4777544437a0ae6fabd6b8e5fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a30aa4777544437a0ae6fabd6b8e5fc\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s always excellent to have the likes of Hobbes and Locke being quoted in this House, and the member who\u2019s just resumed her seat, Vanushi Walters, will know just how excited I am about that. Fortunately for this House\u2014and for you, Mr Speaker\u2014I will not be engaging in that. I\u2019m going to stick to the bill, the Counter-Terrorism Acts (Designations and Control Orders) Amendment Bill. The member who has resumed her seat has outlined, I think, very well\u2014as she said, this is a very complex area of law. It\u2019s one of those classic cases where we are balancing various rights. At one degree, this is trying to balance the rights of the group, of the community\u2014the safety, particularly, of the community\u2014with the particular freedoms of an individual, and those, in particular, that we call terrorists. And it\u2019s quite a balance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EI think it really is important to acknowledge that the Justice Committee\u2014and again, other speakers, not only in this reading but in others, have talked about it\u2014has worked incredibly hard, importantly alongside officials, advisers, the public, the Parliamentary Counsel Office, and others, to tease out areas which did trouble us. I want to make it clear to the House that it wasn\u2019t that anything was felt to be particularly bad in the legislation; it was just trying to think through how this might manifest in different scenarios, because ultimately we are giving enormous powers in this counter-terrorism Act. And I want to make the next comment clear: it\u2019s not about any particular individual, but we\u2019re giving enormous powers to the Prime Minister, and that in itself, at one level, is not a wrong thing. And again I want to stress that it\u2019s not about whoever is the Prime Minister at the time, but, ultimately, one person gets quite a lot of powers; naturally with a caveat\u2014there are lots of conditions within the bill; there\u2019s lots of advice and so forth. But it\u2019s quite substantial power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EI suppose I\u2019m wanting to say, for those who are listening at home\u2014or, of course, the Hansard into the future\u2014that the select committee spent a lot of time, we as the House have spent a lot of time considering this, and I think we\u2019ve landed in the right place. You might hear the slight hesitation in my voice. That\u2019s not because I have any particular issues or problems\u2014I think we have landed in a good space\u2014but I\u2019m always nervous when you\u2019re dealing with something this substantial; that we may have missed something or overcooked or undercooked something. Who knows? But, to quote another philosopher\u2014Voltaire\u2014\u201Cthe enemy is the perfect of the good.\u201D So let\u2019s give it a crack\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e8b14640d534277b04b8d13290e97e9\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CThe perfect is the enemy of the good.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a390ab5eb7b14ea5b4baa8fd0528bcd9\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CThe perfect is the enemy of the good\u201D\u2014sorry. OK, I\u2019m being well corrected here, which is possibly illustrating the point between perfection and good! But anyway\u2014[Interruption] Oh, Lord! OK, we were doing so well until that point. As has been traversed\u2014I\u2019m not going to go too long into it now, because I\u2019m getting concerned\u2014there are two sorts of pillars to this: one is around designations; one is around control orders. I\u2019ll start with the latter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EControl orders are, effectively, those measures, those controls, which can be put around those people who are deemed to be terrorists. One of the elements\u2014I raised it yesterday in the committee of the whole House\u2014was particularly around the nature of objectionable materials. There were concerns put forward by the likes of the Free Speech Union and others that this bill would see the notion of terrorism\u2014or those objects, those points of media which we deem at this time to be objectionable, could now be seen as terroristic. That, understandably, is a problem. I certainly sit on the side that, first and foremost, doesn\u2019t want more violence. I don\u2019t like it. I don\u2019t like a lot of these video games and other things which are out there glorifying violence. But I am also someone who is quite nervous about expanding who gets to decide what is and isn\u2019t appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EHowever, those objections, valid as they were, fault, if you will, or don\u2019t fully understand what this law is doing. In effect, for a control order to be in place, you\u2019ve got to be already identified to be a terrorist, having been involved in terrorist activities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EAs a consequence of that, this piece of legislation is expanding\u2014well, it\u2019s expanding what the State can do, but it is limiting what access an individual can have to, in this case, objectionable material. I struggled with it yesterday, trying to articulate it, which in itself is an indication that I haven\u2019t fully grasped it in my head. But, ultimately, we are not restricting the rights of ordinary New Zealanders to various materials\u2014objectionable, offensive, extreme as they may be. What we are saying is that if you are the subject of a control order, then that can be more widely interpreted now, and I think that is appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThe second is around designations, and that, again, falls to the prerogative of the Prime Minister, on advice, to make sure that they are able to designate entities and individuals as terrorists. By the way, this is an amendment bill, so, again, for those at home, this is not new; we\u2019re amending an existing piece of legislation. But we\u2019re just ensuring that those designations can remain. Put really, really simply, we\u2019d found, unfortunately through experience, that someone being in prison for terrorist activities was finding that the designation could expire. So just one example of what this amendment bill does is ensure that that designation does not expire while they\u2019re in prison, and there\u2019s a whole lot of other elements with that as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESo, as we\u2019re saying, overall, it\u2019s a good bill. Again, I\u2019ll just put on the record, I\u2019ve just got a slight nervousness, not for any particular reason, and I suppose it\u2019s just a reflection of something that is so substantial. But I will make one last little plea, because that\u2019s what I do, because designations, of course, as it says here, the scheme will allow the Prime Minister to designate terrorist entities, be they individuals or groups. I\u2019ve spoken about it in the House before, but I do call on the Prime Minister and this Government, or any future Governments, that the likes of Iran\u2019s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps should be, in this country, designated a terrorist organisation, and also\u2014and it won\u2019t surprise some members of the House\u2014I see the likes of Hezbollah and Hamas; they should also be designated terrorist organisations. I just want to make that call here today, but in particular with all that\u2019s happening at the moment, particularly with the movement around Mahsa Amini, around women, life, and freedom, it is well beyond time that this Government, this Parliament, makes sure that Iran\u2019s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps is aptly made a terrorist entity in this country. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022 data-id=\u0022855dc91dcf164735b6f6900206274a50\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022855dc91dcf164735b6f6900206274a50\u0022\u003EDr EMILY HENDERSON (Labour\u2014Whang\u0101rei):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare. I stand to take a call on this bill, the Counter-Terrorism Acts (Designations and Control Orders) Amendment Bill, and I do so first to acknowledge the Minister, Minister Allan, who, as my wonderful chair Ms Walters earlier mentioned, has taken a really difficult area of law, and she has shepherded this bill through, and it is greatly to her credit as to the thoughtful and collegial way in which she did that. I want to thank Minister Prime for bringing the final ministerial statement on the matter through. Minister Prime, in her previous incarnation as a mere MP, was in fact a member of the Justice Committee and, I believe, sat on the early stages of this bill, so it\u2019s nice to see her here tonight to bring it to a final conclusion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EI also want to mention our Opposition members. Well, no, I want to then go back to our chair, because, actually, I think you\u2019ve seen tonight why it is such a joy and a privilege to work on this particular committee. To work with someone of such knowledge and thoughtfulness as Ms Walters is a real joy. To work also with members such as Mr Mitchell, Mr Penk, and Mr O\u2019Connor has also been a real pleasure on this occasion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EAnd I do just want to diverge slightly and say I recently was listening to my favourite podcast, The Rest Is Politics, a discussion between Alastair Campbell and Rory Stewart, which is the number one podcast in the UK, I believe. It\u2019s about UK political life. And Rory Stewart was reflecting on his time as a senior ambassador in Afghanistan, and he mentioned that it was a wonderful police officer by the name of Mark Mitchell who got him out of an extremely dangerous situation where they were surrounded and under serious fire. And he praised Mr Mitchell\u2019s calm and collected demeanour. It made me slightly nervous to realise that I was serving on a committee with someone with quite that familiarity with violence, but on the other hand, he does give excellent advice on dog control.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003EBut returning to this bill, I do want to reiterate just how seriously it was taken, because this bill is something that does seriously impair the liberty of those who are either designated or subject to control orders. We took the responsibility extremely seriously. My colleagues have amply and ably gone over the detail of this matter, so I will not strain this House\u2019s attention span any longer other than simply to reiterate that this is a serious piece of legislation. It does serious things to the liberty of those who will be subject to it and who, in fact, in the one case are subject to it. I assure this House that we treated this matter with the seriousness it demands, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022 data-id=\u00226cd782fa42c94d87bda7c7adfb6b11a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226cd782fa42c94d87bda7c7adfb6b11a9\u0022\u003EGOLRIZ GHAHRAMAN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I do want to begin by acknowledging, in the context of this particular law change, that we\u2019re a nation now who has, in very real terms and very close memory, experienced an act of terrorism that resulted in 51 deaths on New Zealand soil, which was on March 15th in 2019.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003ESo, in the past, when we\u2019ve taken the Acts on counter-terrorism through this House, they\u2019ve been as part of a remote movement in terms of the war on terror, for example, led by some of our ye olde allies, and we\u2019ve been followers. But now it is something that we need to take even more seriously in our own, very real context. We\u2019ve had a royal commission report, even, into not only our legal frameworks but also the ways that those frameworks interact with the institutions that we\u2019ve entrusted with doing the work of counter-terrorism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EThe control orders regime, it\u2019s also really important to notice, is not a regime that applies to those who have been convicted, necessarily, of terrorism offending. It\u2019s a much broader regime, and it implies a sort of ability, on the part of our institutions, to know ahead of time when someone might be a risk, when certain types of publications may be a risk, certain types of activity, travel\u2014funding actions even can be seen as being part of that person\u2019s risk in terms of terrorism. Whenever we deal with things as amorphous as that, we have to take account of the inherent prejudices in our systems and in the operation of our institutions. I think, now that we have a royal commission report, more than ever we know those prejudices to be real.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003ESo in the past, when we\u2019ve been part of that remote war on terror, we\u2019ve gotten counter-terrorism law very wrong. We\u2019ve detained an asylum seeker without charge or trial for two years, and that was Ahmed Zaoui. Our courts had to tell us, at every step, that we need to have a mind to a human rights - based process, and that we weren\u2019t in fact acting in terms of counter-terrorism if we were giving away powers, giving away the rule of law and our own standards of human rights in order to look tough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003ESo the Green Party did support this bill to the Justice Committee because we wanted to see how that work would go. But our hesitation in part, which stands again and still, is in the ad hoc approach in terms of bringing this law back to tweak it, so to speak, but, in fact, including much more than what would be just cursory tweaks without waiting for that broad, systemic review that\u2019s in the works. So we already had hesitations because this was an ad hoc approach to a review of counter-terrorism law, but we wanted to see what the select committee would do. We stand, as we did at second reading, unsatisfied that our concerns in terms of the rule of law and in terms of that rights-based approach and in terms of the safety mechanisms that we want to see in lawmaking, even when it comes to counter-terrorism, are there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EThe committee heard from the likes of Amnesty International that this law includes unacceptable application of retrospectivity. So, again, that\u2019s the rule of law being undermined\u2014so sanctioning someone for an activity that, at the time they did it, was not unlawful. In a very real way, because the control powers within this regime are pretty restrictive, they go well beyond the Bail Act, and the Bail Act\u2019s applying to people where there\u2019s been a crime actually alleged, and this isn\u2019t about that in all cases. So that\u2019s pretty serious. And Amnesty International, I should say, also shared the Green Party\u2019s problem with this kind of ad hoc approach to bringing back bits of counter-terrorism law and changing that without waiting for the broader, proper systemic review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EWe heard from the Law Commission that there\u2019d been no M\u0101ori consultation, which is also quite galling in the context of the way that we saw counter-terrorism law weaponised against M\u0101ori activists, and what we saw in the royal commission report that said that our institutions at the time of the royal commission report\u2014and we\u2019re yet to see any kind of meaningful reform since then\u2014were focused on the wrong groups, which included the Muslim community itself and M\u0101ori. So to say that there was no consultation with those groups, and no Te Tiriti - based partner consultation, is quite stunning at this point in our experience of what counter-terrorism law can miss, what our institutions can miss, and how much those powers can be misused, not to keep us safe from terrorism. So that\u2019s pretty concerning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003EThis bill doesn\u2019t represent a new way of doing things in terms of having a global systemic vision of what counter-terrorism in the modern world, in Aotearoa\u2019s context, should look like. It represents a repeat of what we\u2019ve seen for decades, which is just doing little bits here and there without proper consultation, without taking account of current contexts, without taking account of the ways that power is misused in this space against communities and groups who are not, in fact, the threats to our society, and how to better balance those powers as against the right and, in fact, the very valid threat of modern terrorism. So, unfortunately, we can\u2019t commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u002273323fe1a220450dbeb5afd9d5ec40fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273323fe1a220450dbeb5afd9d5ec40fd\u0022\u003ENICOLE McKEE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I stand on behalf of the ACT Party for this, the third reading of the Counter-Terrorism Acts (Designation and Control Orders) Amendment Bill in support, as we have been throughout the different hearings of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EMr Speaker, I\u2019m going to divert a little bit away from the bill, if you would just give me this moment, to reflect on a trip that I\u2019ve just made with the Pacific Mission 2023. One of the countries we went to was Fiji, which is experiencing its very first coalition Government ever. In speaking with one of the select committees there, one of their members asked the question, \u201CHow do you work in a bipartisan way within your Government, because we\u2019ve never had to experience that ourselves before?\u201D, and my answer to him was that when we can look for the betterment of the people of New Zealand, we can come to conclusions, usually, where we can be mostly all in agreement. I think that this is one of those bills where it has been complex and it has been hard to understand, and yet the officials were fantastic in giving us the information that allowed us to all come together and actually be able to support counter-terrorism controls and designations within our country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThere are two parts to this bill. The first part changes the provisions that are held in the Terrorism Suppression Act 2002, and the second addresses changes to the Terrorism Suppression (Control Orders) Act 2019. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003ESince 2002, when we had the Terrorism Suppression Act, the Prime Minister of the day was able to designate only entities rather than individuals, and what we have found is that we\u2019ve now got a lot of lone actors within the world, let alone New Zealand, that are going off and creating terrorist attacks based on their own ideology, rather than that of an entity. They may follow an entity, but it\u2019s not the entity itself that is committing this attack, or even directing it; it is the lone individual. So we\u2019re making changes that an individual can actually have a designation placed upon them, rather than an entire entity like ISIS or the Taliban, for example. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThe Christchurch terrorist is a great example of where we should use this legislation, and, in fact, the royal commission inquiry had made a recommendation that make these changes because of him. Tarrant has been convicted of murder, of attempted murder, and of terrorism. Our courts have determined that he carried out the terrorist act on our soil, and this amendment means that he can be declared as a terrorist entity in his own right. He doesn\u2019t have to belong to a group; his actions and subsequent convictions are enough for any Prime Minister of the day to make that declaration as to his status. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EBy this designation being made, it also means that no third party can provide any material support to him. He cannot be supported by property being made available to him, and if he had had any property here in New Zealand, no third party could deal with it on his behalf. It actually cuts potential supply and support from others towards a designated lone actor determined to be a terrorist in his own right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EOur changes also include that when a person is designated as a terrorist and is then incarcerated, a hold will be placed on their designation while they are incarcerated. Currently, they can actually apply for the designation to be revoked after a mere three years, and they can apply for this based on the fact that they are entitled to a three-year review, and they\u2019re incarcerated so they cannot be a terror to the public. By being in jail, they can\u2019t be cavorting with a terrorist entity, and this means that the terrorist could no longer meet the requirements needed for the designation. Our changes will mean that the incarcerated terrorist designation can be placed on hold for that time that they are incarcerated under His Majesty\u2019s roof\u2014that is, the requirement for continuing the designation is able to be placed on hold for the duration of that incarceration\u2014and it saves the Prime Minister of the day having to reflect on whether or not that person still meets those requirements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThis brings me to the second part of the legislative changes, and this is about how we deal with designated terrorist entities once they leave prison. Being able to place a control order on to a person who is thought to pose a real threat to society will now be able to occur. We all recall the New Lynn supermarket horror attack of 2021, where a person injured six people, three of them critically, in his frenzied attack. That individual was a lone actor who was inspired by ISIS. Our legislation prevented him from being retained in a prison environment. Because we could not impose stricter control orders upon him, he ended up under heavy surveillance, and, thankfully, that surveillance enabled lives to be saved on that horrific day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EBut we have to be smarter about how we deal with these individuals. That is why ACT is supporting these changes. Having police watching individuals 24 hours a day, seven days a week, because there\u2019s no other option available to them needed to change. With that, I\u2019d like to acknowledge the police and the work that they did not only in identifying that this person was a risk but actually being on his shoulder and able to stop that attack from being any worse than it already was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EWe hope that by changing the legislation and by creating new protocols for managing electronic monitoring and allowing each order to be constructed for and unique to an individual in their circumstances\u2014we expect that will greatly assist New Zealand Police. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to thank the Minister, who, in the committee of the whole House last night, clarified clause 15 within the bill, which relates to the objectionable material additions that we have placed into this bill. We did have a lot of concern from members who submitted to us that it would create possible terrorist entities for having possession of certain elements that they were deemed to be prohibited. The clarification from the Minister last night detailed that it\u2019s actually not being in possession of objectionable material alone but rather as well as, meeting other criteria, to be a designated entity. Importing objectionable material alone will not designate a terrorist; rather, it will assist in the determination after other factors have been identified.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003ESo, in summary, the changes to the Terrorism Suppression Act 2002 will, effectively, mean that an individual can be named as a designated entity, the expiry of a designation is paused if the person is in jail, the three-yearly review is retained but the grounds for that have been amended, and the designated entity will still have the ability to challenge the designation and its ongoing status, but this will be done through a review process rather than a revocation one. The changes to the control orders will add some new definitions which will include and allow control orders on community-based sentences and electronic monitoring, as well as post-detention conditions and residential requirements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EIn March 2019, we lost our innocence as a country. Our police expect us to help them protect our people, and this is a step that we can assist them with once an individual has been designated as a terrorist threat. At least one part of the recommendations from the royal commission inquiry is focusing on the terrorist and their activities, rather than the good citizens of this country\u2014that, we can and will support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00223bcdf3f25a3e46abaa35a32ef4de3807\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223bcdf3f25a3e46abaa35a32ef4de3807\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This debate is interrupted and is set down for resumption next sitting day. The House stands adjourned until 2 p.m. tomorrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 9.55 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023050385aa8e60c72c473db3690343995fd89a000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"