"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cb851e581fdf4b3bbaff1462562a89ce\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 16 MAY 2023\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002217f35fd80c0a40f8997948c466aaefbd\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 16 MAY 2023\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229434478112cb4a3ab16682271b7d213a\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223bbb052833de40b08620efdcdf3a1105\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022c986e83a94c440da9e5f1164659e16df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c986e83a94c440da9e5f1164659e16df\u0022\u003EHon JENNY SALESA (Assistant Speaker):\u003C/span\u003E E te Atua kaha rawa, ka tuku whakamoemiti atu m\u0101tou, m\u014D ng\u0101 karakia kua waihotia mai ki runga i a m\u0101tou. Ka waiho i \u014D m\u0101tou p\u0101nga whaiaro katoa ki te taha. Ka mihi m\u0101tou ki te K\u012Bngi, me te inoi atu m\u014D te \u0101rahitanga i roto i \u014D m\u0101tou whakaaroarohanga, kia m\u014Dhio ai, kia whakaiti ai t\u0101 m\u0101tou whakahaere i ng\u0101 take o te Whare nei, m\u014D te oranga, te maung\u0101rongo, me te aroha o Aotearoa. \u0100mene.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E[Almighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the King, and pray for guidance in our deliberations, that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom and humility, for the welfare, peace and compassion of New Zealand. Amen.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a0ab6a78f95e43e7b3086f21b2c7f85d\u0022\u003EVisitors\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002207d1276407c74a6aaabb5dc9b35d1be7\u0022\u003EAustralia\u2014Australia Political Exchange\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022acc81bdbe8324dde9f760e78c842b25d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022acc81bdbe8324dde9f760e78c842b25d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sure that members would wish to welcome the Australia Political Exchange delegation, led by Senator Jana Stewart, who are present in the gallery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aa222082cf86464c92fc11c3f4384714\u0022\u003EMinisterial Statements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cf14734799f44812b9ceb33d08d31067\u0022\u003ELoafers Lodge Fire\u2014Newtown, Wellington\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed1f2957dbb24564a97db8f8d5c782ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed1f2957dbb24564a97db8f8d5c782ae\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I wish to make a ministerial statement relating to the Newtown fire.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EIt is with great sorrow that I advise the House that there have been multiple deaths in a tragic fire in a residential building on Adelaide Road, Newtown this morning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThe Prime Minister and I, and local MPs Grant Robertson, Ibrahim Omer, and Paul Eagle, have just returned from Newtown. Along with Mayor Tory Whanau, we met with some of those affected. We met first responders and witnessed the distress on their faces. We heard stories of the scene that confronted Fire and Emergency and police when they first arrived.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EAt approximately 12.25 a.m. this morning, Fire and Emergency were called to what they knew would be a significant fire in a hostel in Wellington. I\u2019m advised that the first fire truck arrived at 12.30 a.m. Crews found the fire was already well involved. The fire was quickly elevated to fifth alarm, the highest level. There were 20 fire appliances on the scene by 4 a.m. At its peak, there were 29 fire crews involved, with more than 80 firefighters from all over Wellington. Fire crews rescued five people off the roof, using a specialist aerial appliance. They helped save many, many lives. Fire and Emergency\u2019s communication centre staff, who were taking 111 calls from people trapped in the building, did an exceptional job; they, too, undoubtedly saved lives last night.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThe Prime Minister and I spoke with national commander Russell Wood and the incident controller, district manager Nick Pyatt, and firefighters at the scene this morning. The toll on our firefighters and communication centre staff is not to be underestimated. The devastation I saw on the faces of those involved was unmistakable. All I can say is thank you for your incredible service and your bravery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThank you also to police and Wellington Free Ambulance for the work they too have done overnight. Thank you especially to the staff at Wellington Hospital, literally just around the corner from the fire. Staff in the emergency department helped to triage patients and treat those most in need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EFire and Emergency have told me that their key focus now is the wellbeing of its people and investigating the fire. At this stage, the cause of the fire is unexplained, and police will be working alongside Fire and Emergency to determine the cause. Police are asking people to please come forward if they or someone they know have been staying at the property; please contact 105, referencing Operation Rose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThe Ministry of Social Development and other agencies are working closely with Wellington City Council, which is leading the welfare response. Staff are onsite at the welfare centre at Newtown Park pavilion to look after those who have been affected. The residents have literally lost everything; maybe some, just the keys to the door of their room. We thank the Wellington City Mission and the Salvation Army as well for their support on the ground. We will work hard to ensure that those affected have a roof over their head.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ENewtown is a microcosm of the Wellington region. The people who live there are a mix of working professionals, newly arrived migrants, refugees, students, young families, retired people, those living with the support of central and local government, and our community agencies, like the Salvation Army and City Mission. It is multicultural, full of character and diversity. Whether you are the Governor-General in the grandest house, or a newly arrived family fleeing a war zone overseas, there is a place for you in Newtown. The community is strong; people look after each other, and they love living there. This tragedy will hurt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EOur thoughts are with those affected, with the departed, and with their friends and family. To those who have passed, he aitu\u0101 [a calamity]. Haere e ng\u0101 mate, haere, haere, haere atu r\u0101. E mihi aroha ki ng\u0101 whanua pani. [To the departed, go on, depart, rest in peace. I greet with compassion those who are bereft.] Manuia lau malaga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022868b90e87b2e41bf9abf970c10d8b6d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022868b90e87b2e41bf9abf970c10d8b6d2\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E On behalf of the National Party, it is with the deepest sadness that I join the Minister in expressing our condolences to the families and friends of those who have lost their lives this morning in Loafers Lodge, as well as those who have been displaced and dispossessed after the fire. People being pulled from the roofs of burning buildings or escaping by jumping out of windows is not something we expect to see in New Zealand, yet today we\u2019ve seen it just down the road. The tragedy that we woke to this morning is not something we expect in 2023, and yet that is what has just unfolded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon and I have just returned from the site of the tragedy, where we met with survivors and first responders. We spoke with one man who had escaped the blaze, awoken only because he needed to go to the bathroom and saw smoke rolling down the corridor. He then had the opportunity to alert his friend in the neighbouring bedroom that they needed to escape. Tears rolled down his face as he recounted what had occurred in the night. Clearly traumatised, not only for fear of those who had lost their lives but also by what had occurred and the displacement that he will have to endure over the coming weeks as he tries to find a new home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EWe spoke also with emergency personnel who have been responding to the fire since midnight. They are the very best of us. They were so brave, so self-effacing about their efforts. But they, in many cases, said that the work has only just begun. They have ahead of them a task which none of us would wish upon anyone, as they do the hard work\u2014the gruelling work\u2014to return those lost to loved ones.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EOne of the firefighters I spoke to told me of his concern for those on the communications lines overnight, some of whom, apparently, were speaking with those trapped in the building. Some of those calls ended very abruptly. The pain on the faces of the firefighters and emergency services staff was evident. Let there be no doubt that had it not been for their response last night and their valour, many more would have died. They are heroes, and their bravery in the face of danger and devastation is simply inspirational. They ran into a blazing fire, risking their lives in order to fight for the lives of others. The toll must be enormous. We say thank you, but we also pledge to help support them with the surely ongoing trauma from their involvement in this event.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EI\u2019m sure that over the coming hours and days, we will learn more of the true scale of this tragedy. Many people remain missing, and, as we sit here this afternoon, facts are still unfolding. There will come a time for questions, and those questions will deserve answers. Today is not that day, but I respectfully ask the Government: please engage the Opposition as you form terms of reference for the investigation into this event and how it came to pass.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003ERight now, my thoughts\u2014and this Parliament\u2019s thoughts, I\u2019m sure\u2014are with the mothers, the fathers, the wives, the husbands, the brothers, the sisters, the children who have lost loved ones, and also for those sick with worry waiting for news about whether their family members are safe. Just know that we are alongside you, waiting in hope with you. We are here to support you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003EIt is difficult to comprehend the terror and chaos that confronted residents of Loafers Lodge last night, but we know that in these times of desperation, there has also been immeasurable courage. I want to echo the Minister\u2019s thanks to the paramedics at Wellington Free Ambulance and to the staff at Wellington Regional Hospital, caring for victims as we speak. I know that in this moment the Wellington community will step up to support those displaced and traumatised. We have already seen the Wellington City Mission and local churches come to the effort. These are some of our most vulnerable citizens and Wellington will stay with them. May the victims of this tragedy rest in peace. Our thoughts are with all affected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u00221f4a631de7c242c9af47e012ef91d53a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f4a631de7c242c9af47e012ef91d53a\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. On behalf of ACT\u2019s members of Parliament, I\u2019d like to join this debate in support of the words of the two earlier speakers\u2014the Hon Barbara Edmonds and Nicola Willis\u2014offering our thoughts, prayers, and sympathies to those who have perished in this dreadful disaster.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI say \u201Cdreadful\u201D because while New Zealand has its share of terrible tragedies, there are few that can bring the dread of people perishing in a fire. So our thoughts, prayers, and sympathies are with those people as deeply and sincerely as ever. That extends with our condolences for those who have lost loved ones: brothers and sisters; parents, mothers and fathers; sons and daughters; work colleagues; neighbours in the Newtown district\u2014for whom this will be a terrible shock to wake up to this morning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EWe also acknowledge\u2014as so often at times like this\u2014that the emergency services in New Zealand are a group of people who, time after time, rise to the challenge, instinctively know what to do, and save many lives even at great emotional cost and scarring to themselves often. And we should be truly grateful to live in a country where the innate character of the people who do those jobs means the best of them comes out precisely when it is needed to rise to that challenge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI reiterate what we heard from the earlier speaker. There will be questions around the right policies and whether they were followed and whether there was wrongdoing or responsibility. But the time for those questions is certainly not today: it is when the full facts and evidence have been gathered by the appropriate authorities. I ask and urge\u2014and I\u2019m sure I don\u2019t need to\u2014that all people involved in the political sphere respect the people involved in this tragedy and follow that course of events properly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EFinally, I reiterate our thoughts, our prayers, and our sympathies for those who have perished in this dreadful tragedy, those who loved and lost them, and those still dealing with the immediate aftermath of what happened in the early hours of this morning. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9c33da703fc4566bc22c10a6b26c1d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9c33da703fc4566bc22c10a6b26c1d4\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. On behalf of the Green Party of Aotearoa / New Zealand and as an MP based in Wellington Central and just personally, I do want to extend, also, our deepest sympathies and condolences to the wh\u0101nau and the friends and the colleagues of those who have lost their lives this morning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EOur thoughts are with those who have lost their lives and the residents who have lost so much as a result of the fire. It is a tragedy for those directly involved and for the Wellington community at large, and our hearts do go out to those who are affected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EI do want to acknowledge that those people who were affected by this were amongst the most vulnerable and marginalised members of our community, and they deserve our respect and our support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EI do want to acknowledge, also, the work of the firefighters and the healthcare workers who did an extraordinary job and who acted very quickly to ensure that this awful situation wasn\u2019t even worse and saved many lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EI am also very, very angry, because I do have a number of questions. And I do respect the calls of the last two speakers, but when they say that there is a time that we should be asking questions, I take a different view, as well, because the questions in my mind are: what kind of country are we that we allow this kind of thing to happen to our most vulnerable members of our community? What kind of country are we, where those people have so few options in life but to live in substandard accommodation with a reasonable chance of lethality? What kind of country are we, where we would not raise a building code because we\u2019re worried we might be accused of issuing a \u201Cwar on landlords\u201D? I think: what kind of country are we where our firefighters lack or are at risk of not showing up with the most basic of equipment to be able to fight these kinds of events?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThose questions do need to be answered, I think, in the fullness of time. But I do have some questions today for the Minister of Internal Affairs. Firstly, has she had any conversations with Cabinet colleagues about the adequacy of the fire code and how fire safety requirements are applied to existing buildings, and will there be urgent moves to improve the approach to retrofitting sprinkler systems?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022690a529598064be182e1488aba87126a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022690a529598064be182e1488aba87126a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Did the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b651584a20e44631811a91533e1fc845\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, does the Minister want to answer? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022402f34b1d6ac44bf988b9dbd4cfba564\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Hon Barbara Edmonds wish to respond?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u002257254a83db7a45e9b894ef0780a27cf9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002257254a83db7a45e9b894ef0780a27cf9\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. To the question by the leader of the Green Party, I have had numerous conversations with both our Prime Minister and other Cabinet colleagues throughout the day. I am being informed of the progress as the day progresses through Fire and Emergency New Zealand. It is too early to rule anything in or out, and, right now, our focus is on supporting Fire and Emergency New Zealand and those who have been affected by this tragedy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u0022092456f5d98b49bf8883d46a2f7212c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022092456f5d98b49bf8883d46a2f7212c9\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E My second question relates to the resourcing of those firefighters. Is she aware that only a few days ago the firefighters union had reported that Wellington\u2019s busiest fire truck was out of action for 58 hours due to a lack of staff, and, if so, what is she doing to ensure that our firefighters have the resources that they need to keep people safe in emergencies like this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u002205649a6fdcf34551a29f4735b847b252\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205649a6fdcf34551a29f4735b847b252\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I have confidence in Fire and Emergency New Zealand to make the best decisions about how, when, and where to respond. In the end, no Minister or member of Parliament should try to substitute their opinion for the decisions of expert firefighters and search and rescue responders, who have to make split-second decisions based on the information in front of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u00221c71cfbed4bb4f1f81a30815e3fa3928\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c71cfbed4bb4f1f81a30815e3fa3928\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E Finally, we have learnt today that many of the people who were living in this accommodation were in very difficult circumstances. What conversations is she having with her colleagues about what the Government is doing to address the underlying support needs of vulnerable people and, secondly, as part of this, to build enough decent, safe housing for everyone regardless of their circumstances?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022fea2674d68c042e7824b08bfb914ce18\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fea2674d68c042e7824b08bfb914ce18\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E First and foremost, I want to acknowledge the number of support agencies who are at the Newtown Park pavilion right now supporting all those who have been affected. The Ministry of Social Development and other agencies are working closely with the Wellington City Council to respond to their needs right now and obviously will be looking to the future. We will work hard to ensure all those who have been affected will have a roof over their heads.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u002235f84d44d26e4112a7c7d266ddfd57fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002235f84d44d26e4112a7c7d266ddfd57fa\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te Paati M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EE ka hua au ki te uira e kanapa r\u0101 runga Kokotaiki e\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EKo te tini o te mate ka riro atu r\u0101 ki te huinga kahurangi e\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EE hoki atu r\u0101 aku nui, aku wehi, aku whakatiketike e\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EKi te p\u014D uriuri, ki te p\u014D tangotango, ki a Hine Nui i te P\u014D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EP\u014D kia whakatauk\u012B au i konei: he tokotoru n\u0101 Hine Tama\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EKa horu te moana e\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EE ng\u0101 mate o te w\u0101, e te parekura nui kua wh\u0101wh\u0101hia nei e ng\u0101 matikara o Mahuika, haere. Kotahi noa te k\u014Drero ki a koutou: whoatu. Whoatu koutou i runga i te ara k\u014Drero kua parangia e te tini, e te mano. Koutou kua haere ki tua o Reit\u016B, ki tua o Reiao, h\u0101unga r\u0101 ng\u0101 mahi kikokiko kua rongo nei i t\u0113nei Whare, engari ko te whare nui o te P\u0101remata i te rangi e p\u014Dhiri nei i a koutou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EIn\u0101 ng\u0101 k\u014Drero ki roto i ng\u0101 Karaipiture, i roto i te Paipera: ko te ahi te whakatinanatanga o te Atua. Koia hoki t\u0101 koutou whai, koia hoki t\u0101 koutou kapo i t\u0113nei r\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira ka whakamoemiti, ka whakamoemiti te mahi me te tuku, te tuku atu i \u014D koutou wairua ki te poho o te Runga Rawa hei piringa m\u014Dna. Ko ng\u0101 whakamoemiti hoki e rongo nei koutou i te h\u0101tere, i te h\u0101wh\u0101, i te t\u0113tere. Hei aha? Hei whakapaipai m\u014D t\u014Du matenga. In\u0101 ko ng\u0101 k\u014Drero tuku i a koutou i t\u0113nei r\u0101. N\u014D reira koutou e ng\u0101 mate, haere, haere, whakangaro atu r\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u0100, ko ng\u0101 whakamoemiti an\u014D hoki ki ng\u0101 kai\u0101whina, ki ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata patu ahi, ki ng\u0101 pirihimana, ki a r\u0101tou i tuku atu, i toro atu i te ringa \u0101whina ki a koutou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira k\u0101ti ake, k\u0101re t\u0113nei i te whakat\u014D roa i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero, engari i runga i te ng\u0101kau M\u0101ori, e Peeni, e Nanaia, tika tonu kia tuku atu i te hunga nei i t\u0113nei r\u0101. N\u014D reira ka tuku kia rite ki \u014D t\u0101tou marae, me tuku atu r\u0101tou, \u0101, \u0101 t\u014Dna w\u0101 ka tarea e te kikokiko te whai i te kikokiko. Engari ko te ao wairua t\u0113nei i t\u0113nei w\u0101 tonu, n\u014D te mea kei te tatari tonu, kei te whiriwhiri tonu kei hea w\u0113tahi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira kei te mahana tonu t\u0113nei t\u016B\u0101huatanga, me waiho r\u0101tou ki a r\u0101tou, ko te mahi i t\u0113nei w\u0101 ka tuku.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira e hika m\u0101 k\u0101re t\u0113nei i te whakat\u014D roa i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero, ka mutu au i runga i ng\u0101 kupu nei:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EWaiata\u2014Te Hokinga Mai\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EKia ora t\u0101tou. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E[I call to the lightning that flashes above Kokotaiki\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EThe many deceased that have passed on to the gathering place of the nobility\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EReturn, the great ones, the inspirational ones, the lofty ones\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003ETo the dark night, to the deep night, to the Great Lady of Death\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EI proverbialise here: the three of Hine Tama\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EThe very ocean cries\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003ETo the recently departed, the great tragedy that was handled by the fingernails of Mahuika, pass on. There is only one thing to say to you: go on. Go on the proverbialised path that was blazed by the many, by the multitude. You who have gone beyond Reit\u016B, beyond Reiao, notwithstanding the physical work that we hear of here in this House, but in the great house of Parliament in the heavens that welcomes you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EThese are the statements within the Scriptures, in the Bible: fire is the embodiment of God. That is your goal, that is has caught you today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003ESo we give thanks, giving thanks is the task and to release, to release your souls to the bosom of the Most High for him to shelter. Thanks also as you hear the lute, the harp and the lightning. For what purpose? To serve as an embellishment for your passing. These indeed are the statements that release you today. So to the dearly departed, go, go, pass on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EAnd thanks also to the support personnel, to the fire service, to the police, to those who that offered, that reached out a helping hand to you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003ESo that will do, I am not merely prolonging the speech, but in the manner of a M\u0101ori heart, Peeni, Nanaia, it is appropriate that these people be sent on today. So the sending on should be the same as our marae, we should release them, and at an appropriate time the flesh can follow the flesh. But this instead is the spiritual realm at this time, because they are still waiting, they are still discussing where others might be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003ESo this phenomenon remains warm, we should now leave them to each other, the task at this time is to send them on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003ESo, my friends, I\u2019ll not merely prolong the discussion, I will conclude with the following words:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EWaiata\u2014Te Hokinga Mai\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EGreetings to us all.] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u002226d5508eed9b402c83d251749f5dad44\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226d5508eed9b402c83d251749f5dad44\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Again, I\u2019d like to thank the speakers in the House today for their words of support, and acknowledge those who have departed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThis morning, I was speaking to Major Joe Serevi from the Salvation Army in Newtown, and I just want to leave these words\u2014his words, that he said to me this morning\u2014\u201CTo everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose. A time to be born, a time to die. A time to love, and a time to hate.\u201D At this time, we wrap our support and aroha around those who are affected. There will be a time for answers, and we will respond.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229ff2c61be5f740a1add03775ca0a65dd\u0022\u003EPetitions, papers, select committee reports, and introduction of bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ae123f4fff7540db8d4227f570e6d700\u0022\u003EPetitions, papers, select committee reports, and introduction of bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002252fd657cfe004f599b281516aac5f04a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252fd657cfe004f599b281516aac5f04a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 t\u0101tou. Petitions have been delivered to the Clerk for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022da61999da4fe4371ae499fb0ce87e186\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da61999da4fe4371ae499fb0ce87e186\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EPetition of David Cumin requesting that the House does not appropriate funds that could go towards the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of John Hearnshaw requesting that the House introduce legislation to limit light pollution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002278ded8a2ac134350b2467b40e3bf9080\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002278ded8a2ac134350b2467b40e3bf9080\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those petitions are referred to the Petitions Committee. Ministers have delivered papers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea540ef5c74348189e5450e0809ed963\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea540ef5c74348189e5450e0809ed963\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ESouth Canterbury District Health Board annual report 2021-22\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EWorld Trade Organization Agreement on Fisheries Subsidies, Ministerial Decision of 17 June 2022, together with National Interest Analysis\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EMinistry for Pacific Peoples, Long-term Insights Briefing 2023, Improving Pacific data equity: Opportunities to enhance the future of Pacific wellbeing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EFire and Emergency New Zealand statement of performance expectations 2022-23, amended March 2023.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002265478164001f46709a7ffadeebf88f8c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265478164001f46709a7ffadeebf88f8c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, I present the Register of Pecuniary and Other Specified Interests of Members of Parliament: Summary of annual returns as at 31 January 2023. Those papers are published under the authority of the House. Select committee reports have been delivered for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6c2ee5d49384cdcaa071e474e6251d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6c2ee5d49384cdcaa071e474e6251d7\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReport of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee on the Fuel Industry Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Environment Committee on the petition of Todd Muller\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Primary Production Committee on the briefing to follow up on the inquiry into honey\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Regulations Review Committee on the complaint about the Lawyers and Conveyancers Act (Lawyers: Practice Rules) Regulations 2008.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022931dffbe208445139ec1b4154c6aa388\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022931dffbe208445139ec1b4154c6aa388\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is set down for second reading. The report of the Regulations Review Committee and the briefing are set down for consideration. The Clerk has been informed of the introduction of a bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00229ee32d05d608414e9a1f9e0f61f4125e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ee32d05d608414e9a1f9e0f61f4125e\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: Land Transport (Road Safety) Amendment Bill, introduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3b0049240a14659a5b028a28c54e042\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3b0049240a14659a5b028a28c54e042\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That bill is set down for first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002276ce1a87804e4a3b9e51ec1f27e890cc\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002234dd9029a76846baaf653a3e5d3d372e\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227262c82f91a549c7beb8bef3893fab5d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u00222e062b4d245941c4b9be87a303891c2b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e062b4d245941c4b9be87a303891c2b\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te Paati M\u0101ori)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Well, this is very rare we get the first question. So my question is to the Prime Minister. Does he stand by his statement that \u201CThe Government will not introduce any major tax changes like a wealth tax or CGT in this Budget\u201D; if so, what action will his Government take, if any, to shift more of the tax burden from the poor to the wealthy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00225702bf1acb43431287bf6cd277c3bc94\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225702bf1acb43431287bf6cd277c3bc94\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Can I begin by acknowledging the tragic events at Loafers Lodge in Newtown and join with other members across the House in extending our condolences to those who have lost their lives, and our complete support for our first responders who have been doing an amazing job on the scene there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI thank the member for his question. In answer to the first part of his question, yes. In answer to the second part of his question, I can confirm that the Budget will not contain measures that are designed to transfer more of the tax burden on to lower-income New Zealanders in order to provide tax cuts for those on the highest incomes, as some have been suggesting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208f2acf163cf49999ae2c6c923c57755\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the need to shift the burden of tax from the poor to the rich in response to the recent report which is showing the wealthy paid only 9.4 percent in tax while the average person in Aotearoa is paying 20.2 percent; and if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0b9c35249c3424aab1d67576d4df238\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: As I\u2019ve already indicated, there won\u2019t be significant changes in that area in this year\u2019s Budget. Parties will put forward their tax policies before the election. I can assure all members that the Labour Party will put forward its tax policy well before the next election; members will be able to make their own judgments based on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227abd7adb01e9429f93df8b2f6e985b1c\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Why will he not begin to reduce wealth inequity through common-sense changes to the tax system such as taxing capital gains and empty houses; is it because he is comfortable with the fact that the richest 2 percent own 50 percent of the wealth in this country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e515294dc0b486fab3271785ec2c470\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: This Government is absolutely committed to improving the lot of people on the lowest incomes, and I think our track record speaks to that. This year\u2019s Budget, for example, contains the funding to, among other things, increase benefits\u2014something that has already been announced and acknowledged. It contains funding to increase superannuation, something that has already been announced and acknowledged. This Government is absolutely committed to ensuring that lower-income New Zealanders are able to get ahead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a56a54556f7c45a29014f25a73203399\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Does this Budget also contain or perpetuate a tax system which is found to be deeply inequitable such that the wealthiest pay an effective tax rate of half that of the average New Zealander?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229dfb917051d45cf8c799f4fc4efe6cc\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve indicated what tax changes the Budget does not involve, such as the introduction of a capital gains tax or a wealth tax. For more detailed questions, the member only has to wait two more days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224070013a9285464da5d7bf747e45aa18\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u00224e3cd758a29148308a8dbdcc53c7fc41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e3cd758a29148308a8dbdcc53c7fc41\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER LUXON (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I also join with other speakers across the House to give my condolences and sympathies to the victims and families of the tragedy that we\u2019ve seen overnight, and just to thank the fire service and also the first responders. Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u002231003fa7585b4b0dbff2bef29a27f998\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231003fa7585b4b0dbff2bef29a27f998\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, and, in particular, this Government\u2019s work to fix the foundations of our education system after years of underfunding, overcrowding, and decay by upgrading every school in the country. We\u2019ve already funded over 2,700 new classrooms to create space for 66,000 more students. Just yesterday, the Minister of Education and I announced the construction of four new schools to add to the 16 new schools opened under this Government. This is a Government that delivers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc07361b0a254ab48f390cfec23f99bd\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: OK. Doesn\u2019t he think a Prime Minister, two days before the Budget, should know how much his Government is spending on taxpayers\u2019 behalf?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfb331cfa2194991ac0e741a4b4c6889\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and I do. That doesn\u2019t mean I\u2019ve memorised every figure in the Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4700eb329784a7d8bd6e7bf4ee35cd7\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Why, when he was asked this morning, couldn\u2019t he just say how much the Government is spending each year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c30da6860b3a4b1499c851b0e0ea4eb3\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: If the member wants to turn the election campaign into a pop quiz, I think he\u2019ll probably come up short on a number of things as well, given that he can\u2019t answer even the most basic questions about his own tax policy at this point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267ae9dba62bb4554b9c2647f13d86b9d\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t it the case that, given his comments this morning, the person who is most in need of a taxpayer\u2019s receipt is, in fact, the Prime Minister, who still doesn\u2019t know how much he\u2019s spending?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a81a0540259465aa62571dee8f597cf\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I note the member doesn\u2019t know how much he\u2019s going to spend on delivering those very tax receipts that he\u2019s promising New Zealanders. In fact, I\u2019d suggest maybe he should get someone other than AI to draft his supplementary questions for him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220066664498ba46b99d210cff5b35b1cf\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Is he aware that his Government is on track to spend $20 billion more this year than in 2020 and 2021, despite no lockdowns or no nationwide wage subsidies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be48226b2e4348608cc0fff9dd281018\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I note that the economy has been growing. I note that wages have been growing. All of those things flow through into the Government\u2019s finances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274ee908c565f4aafb478201689478775\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the Child Poverty Action Group, who said, \u201CStruggling families need much more than an inflation top-up\u201D; if so, will he commit to lifting main benefits beyond the indexation changes so families can thrive and not just survive?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c63b0d5276944ff68007469fba71bb44\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: As I have indicated and as has already been announced, the Government made the decision to switch the calculation for main benefit increases this year to ensure that those families can keep up with the increase in cost of living. In terms of what future decisions are taken on that matter, that will be the subject of future Budgets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2a68d9344ff487a83c18c7211b81a98\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: What steps, if any, is he taking to support the Sudanese community in Aotearoa calling for pathways to family reunification, the enabling of safe passage for citizens\u2019 residency and temporary visa holders, the provision of humanitarian aid, and the commitment to a special visa category akin to the Ukraine special visa as a result of the conflict in Sudan?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9eaae592e0b4dbc925af5cf5b706774\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The Government absolutely acknowledges the tragic situation that is unfolding in Sudan at the moment, and New Zealand is providing consular support to those New Zealanders currently in Sudan through our embassy in Ethiopia. We do not have an embassy presence in Sudan. In terms of our pathways for people to come to New Zealand, we manage that through our existing refugee quota for situations such as this. Of course, I acknowledge the Sudanese community in New Zealand, and there are provisions for them to support family members within our existing immigration settings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c4555a3887d4353a2702188bb226715\u0022\u003EGolriz Ghahraman\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the sentiment expressed by the Hon Phil Twyford today on Parliament\u2019s forecourt, when he said that this is a Government that supports recognition of Palestinian Statehood, and, if so, will he commit to formally recognising the State of Palestine?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9a27fadcf844f10a40722c63cc5ff18\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The New Zealand Government supports a two-State solution; inherent in that is a sentiment towards a Palestinian State. Of course, there are a whole lot of diplomatic and international processes to go through with regard to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc2969df8d514de683015fe8a70bc938\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: How is it possible that his Government is spending $5 billion more on education, even while achievement has gone backwards and kids aren\u2019t even showing up in class? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd88cfcd3c43437bba42498731bcd90e\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, of course, there are more students in this education system than there were when we became the Government, and I note that one of the biggest drivers of that increase has been teacher pay rises\u2014something they didn\u2019t get under the last National Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e3c8fc07424422d97eaa67d3e02d048\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t it true that, under his watch, spending on consultants has ballooned to $1.8 billion, despite promising in 2018 that he would reduce it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291beb8a6186945ab9278da405f2ac593\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I note that the member is not indicating which areas he would no longer have the Government working on. They just have this general policy that they\u2019re going to cut spending, but they won\u2019t say where. I\u2019m sure he\u2019s waiting for AI to tell him where the cuts are going to take place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022678091020bb74a1d88b8423555c68a6b\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t it the case that he\u2019s actually addicted to spending as much as Grant Robertson, and when will this Government stop treating taxpayers like a bottomless ATM?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220588282c13814227ba2969306e49c83b\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: That is an absolutely ridiculous question. He needs to come up with some new material rather than relying on the pre-scripted supplementary questions provided either by the research unit or by AI. It seems to produce the same outcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022023e63c77eb14ad78cb180e07b111347\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister stand by the answers he gave this morning, when he was asked five times how much money his Government spent last year: \u201CIt\u2019s not quite that simple. There are a number of different numbers I could quote, \u2026 I don\u2019t play this game.\u201D, and can he tell us now how much was core Crown expenditure by his Government last year? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237418dc0de8b487eac564a1c11dcade1\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I can\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e836ebc4fa345b8a26862d0ef0e7ee2\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: How much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d4254954adc4102907111534afc8b82\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014but; of course, it depends on which\u2014there are a variety of numbers I could\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276748730793c4ac4a6e2de1574790c80\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Core Crown\u2014core Crown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288fab764415e4a1b97207c74bc382d5f\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: If it\u2019s core Crown expenditure, it\u2019s about $129 billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3d28248d174406ebcb1c9103d9d67a8\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: If I tell the Minister\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237fb4581db3b4517ae2eea5941533ce0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! We\u2019ve got a question here, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a95a1c6098c94767956ada93c3368c08\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does he now appreciate that core Crown expenditure will be up 61 percent, or $49 billion in five years to this year, at $129 billion, and can he name one service that his Government provides that is, overall, 61 percent better and how he\u2019s measured it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b0aa0285dd442ab85b927fd1e44e382\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: There is a lot of material in the member\u2019s question, and it\u2019s a pretty wide question that, basically, means I can answer whatever I want, so I will. There are programmes that this Government has introduced such as the Food in Schools programme that\u2019s feeding 220,000 students every day. There have of course been across-the-board pay increases for our public servants like our teachers, our nurses, our firefighters, and our police that have happened under this Government. There have been a range of investments that this Government has made in the critical public services that New Zealanders rely on, such as our health system, such as upgrading the woeful state of our infrastructure that we inherited from the previous Government\u2014all of these things that have taken place under this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a225bdb91c24ebc914dcecd8bb5cf63\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Prime Minister think the impact on New Zealand\u2019s economy and society would be from the following measures being undertaken: removing the indexation of main benefits to the Consumers Price Index; abolishing the Climate Emergency Response Fund and the Clean Car Discount, abolishing fees-free, abolishing KiwiSaver subsidies, abolishing the Provincial Growth Fund, Callaghan Innovation, domestic film subsidies, international film subsidies, growth and development spending, and a large range of ministries; and halting contributions to the New Zealand Superannuation Fund?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa9ee88a66764b27a7976753c214dff1\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e743e5735c254fd7815a366544df41bc\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t think so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b079ccc1eb7841489c913f23e83cd8a1\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: What does it say that every single example in the Prime Minister\u2019s previous answer was not a measured outcome for the people, but an example of spending more money, with no mention of the outcomes whatsoever?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0f0681b36624d52b24b4badcbed2694\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member clearly wasn\u2019t listening. The very first example I gave him involved 220,000 kids receiving lunch at school every day. If the member doesn\u2019t think that that\u2019s a positive outcome, then perhaps he needs to think again. On the other hand, given he is proposing to increase taxes for the lowest-income New Zealanders so that he can give tax cuts to the highest-income New Zealanders, I\u2019m not surprised he\u2019s somewhat confounded by my answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fe70f9712664cbaaa8a6d1a5d306598\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister stand by his statement, \u201CIt\u2019s not right for households to be tightening their belts if the Government isn\u2019t also being seen to be doing the same.\u201D, and, if so, how many households wouldn\u2019t even have a rough idea of the cost of what they consume or the value of what they provide, just like this Prime Minister on his Government\u2019s expenditure and results?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212a2241d98644573897fdc89d55e8e96\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: As I indicated this morning, if any New Zealander wants to know how much tax they are paying, they can look that up right now on the myIR website, which will give them a breakdown of the tax that they are paying. If anybody wants to know what the Government is spending money on, that information is all transparently available through the Government\u2019s finances, and, of course, that\u2019s all about to be updated in two more sleeps, or, in the member\u2019s case, probably three or four more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e31413850d9d4ac9ad45f2d7f12e678e\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Prime Minister consider in its Budget a low and middle income tax credit and sharing revenue from the emissions trading scheme in a carbon tax refund that would leave lower-income New Zealanders better off, even after a change to a lower, flatter tax system\u2014as in the ACT Party\u2019s alternative Budget, which leaves every single worker better off\u2014and, if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0bda1556e254ae4909da79754e4d0fe\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I thank the member for that question. Adopting the types of policies that ACT are promoting would result in\u2014it\u2019s like reverse Robin Hood: robbing from the people who have the least in order to give more to the people who have the most. They want to cut public services\u2014they want to cut public services that New Zealanders rely on every day\u2014and have less funding available for health, for education, and for our law and order services. They want to cut funding for those things in order to provide tax cuts for the highest-income New Zealanders. The Labour Party does not support that approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002266341a9777364915bdcc8933eafda2b2\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022 data-id=\u00220619da6e57394bc9a1c4f4d5e471e2b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220619da6e57394bc9a1c4f4d5e471e2b4\u0022\u003EANGELA ROBERTS (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What recent announcements has the Government made about building more schools and classrooms?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u00229f27b2069fee4f7896ca8f5e18e8e0a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f27b2069fee4f7896ca8f5e18e8e0a7\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Yesterday, I joined the Prime Minister at Ridgway School to announce that Budget 2023 will build 300 more classrooms in new and existing schools across the country, helping to ease existing pressures while accounting for future population growth. This new targeted funding will ease pressure on our education sector, helping to further fix years of underfunding, overcrowding, and decay in schools and classrooms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245d972bcd9774ea39238c155e2fd9bed\u0022\u003EAngela Roberts\u003C/span\u003E: How will the funding be used?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268513c97d53e421e9bc101b42f14f7c6\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: Of the funding we\u2019ve announced, $300 million will provide 6,600 new student spaces. An additional $100 million will be added to the education infrastructure funding pipeline, which will enable the construction of up to four new schools and new school expansions. The first two projects are in central Auckland and P\u0101p\u0101moa, with the remaining two projects to be announced in due course. This adds to the 16 schools opened under this Government so far.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273764f6794114ac681522713c630a913\u0022\u003EAngela Roberts\u003C/span\u003E: How will these classrooms benefit students?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8f433c247054bf79f226595401c8b14\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: Schools and classrooms that are modern, warm, dry, and fit for purpose make teaching easier, kids more comfortable, and help to improve attendance and achievement. We want kids to look forward to coming to school and spending time in class, and parents to know their children are safe, well, and working to unlock their full potential. This investment will do just that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cf229a9-8722-46b2-a37e-b528e075be7d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee43fdb94bd347d0bc839a69bed4f842\u0022\u003EAngela Roberts\u003C/span\u003E: How does this build on the Government\u2019s legacy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022deb306d1ca304fe5a8615a9d767f0143\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: Since 2017, we have worked to fix the foundations of our education system by upgrading every school in the country and funding over 2,700 new classrooms to create 60,000 more student places. I\u2019ve seen some of our ageing, damp, and cold classrooms up close\u2014in fact, I\u2019ve taught in them\u2014and, frankly, it\u2019s not good enough. Previous Governments may have been OK with that, but we\u2019re not. I\u2019m proud of the investment we have made to deliver warm, safe, and dry classrooms for our tamariki.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002272a9c63f74164ff2ab243b0a5bc6f4dc\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u002221b778b6f6fd4e3ab05b225936f7661f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221b778b6f6fd4e3ab05b225936f7661f\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he stand by his statement last week that \u201CI know the member wants and is obsessed by giving tax cuts in this Budget. I simply believe it\u2019s not the right time\u201D; if so, when will it be the right time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022eccf2a32d3384dffa57dfc0fdcf8d3e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eccf2a32d3384dffa57dfc0fdcf8d3e6\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E For the first part of the question, yes, and for the second part of the question, that will depend on the economic conditions that are in place. It will also depend on what is needed to ensure that we have quality health, education, housing, and other public services New Zealanders need and deserve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022703a901ba8e448b79b2aa321f8088bc9\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Why is it a good time to make inflation adjustments for seemingly every area, but for this finance Minister it is never the time to make inflation adjustments for ordinary taxpayers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7f741755e8d4e028256e267c25e7d18\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: As I\u2019ve said on a number of occasions, all Governments would want, at various points, to be able to do what the member is asking, but it does depend on the conditions that we are in at any given time. The adjustments that we have made in the case of things like main benefits or superannuation is reflective of where we are at with inflation. Equally, at the very same time that decision was made, the data came out that average wages had increased by exactly the same amount.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ec5bd608b5f4af68b94e842bfd9d05a\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Why can he find $1.8 billion for consultancy fees; tens of millions for light-rail plans, strategies, and visualisations; and tens of millions of dollars for Government advertising campaigns, but he can\u2019t find savings for the ordinary taxpayer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd40ebf9bd4247428af77ece8ecbb1a5\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Everything that we are doing in this Budget is about making sure that we can support all New Zealanders\u2014whether we describe them as ordinary taxpayers or not\u2014to be able to live their lives, to be able to have their children go to good schools, to be able to know that the health system will be there. These kinds of investments don\u2019t just happen; they happen because the Government prioritises them. We know that because, when we came into Government, we inherited from a Government that didn\u2019t prioritise public services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d64cb01daa847dd8984d0f0f3c702ab\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: If the Minister has done such a good job of spending in the health system, why is it that under his Government, people are waiting far longer for emergency care than they ever did under the last National Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d45eab1b44ab4c908d05d1927ea71154\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am extremely proud of the fact that we have put resources into the health system that mean we\u2019ve got 20 percent more nurses and about 20 percent more doctors, that we\u2019re actually beginning to pay them what they need to be able to do the work that we want them to do. The health system is a difficult and complex system. We are investing to make sure New Zealanders get the best of it. The member will well know the under-investment that happened in the health system under her Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cc7fad054e549fa9c249d7721707560\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: What is so difficult and complex about expecting the Government to deliver better results for its extra spending, rather than just crowing about the size of the cheques, which, by the way, are signed by everyday taxpayers who are doing it tough?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be1cc32922694214b418a416f9c8d26b\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: This Government is well aware of how tough it is for many New Zealanders out there. It is the very reason why we have supported them to get through COVID, why we gave the wage subsidy, why we made sure that we put more resources into the health system to get through COVID, and then, on top of that, why we have supported low and middle income New Zealanders through things like the family tax credit, through the winter energy payment. All of these things are on the chopping block in the ACT-National Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfdcbd12ff634391981eee5e7113bee7\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister of Finance slightly more au fait with the Government numbers than the Prime Minister, and, if so, can he tell us how much more tax is the Government forecast to collect this year compared to 2017?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282c75e15bc78440f9428cf5b9fdd7cd8\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: This year\u2014if the member means the 2023 year\u2014we are forecast to collect $118.1 billion in tax revenue this year. That is more than we collected in 2017. In part, that is because of inflation\u2014the member has raised that\u2014but it\u2019s also in part because more people are in work, more people are earning more money, and companies are making more profits. The member needs to understand that, yes indeed, it does take a lot to run a Government, but I know that the hard-working New Zealanders out there will be asking big questions of that member as to whether she supports stopping contributions to super, does she support stopping the winter energy payment?\u2014because, until it\u2019s ruled out, that ACT policy is National\u2019s policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acf05f92783344e4b66a665dae596e7f\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. That was a slightly more impassioned speech than we\u2019ve seen in a while, but the question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f6d66042b4549eea67c0b413935dccd\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not a point of order. That is not a way to start a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b55c8067a15844b59318a2690184fd84\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: OK. My point of order is this, Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd410749bcb94bc78cd3ddc491bf9643\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it kind of rules out whatever you\u2019ve got to say, but go ahead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcb17ed7d71341288c85d10a081e4987\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: I asked how much more tax is the Government collecting this year, compared to 2017.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0fe4800f3e846db9c8e5b9bd64ca8fc\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think just about every single one of your questions has had at least one assertion in it, and I think you might find, if you go back and have a look, that\u2019s what\u2019s been addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3a78f38b7ef4d2082c02a66f9557db0\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc5ebfb1d8c841a2825c12d8f895bcb5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A new point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf68af5bceca460ea2bd12ed3b2263a4\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: A fresh point of order. Mr Speaker, your predecessors have ruled that it\u2019s out of order for a Minister answering a question to bring a party not involved in the questioning into the debate. Now, I can understand why Mr Robertson would want to talk about ACT\u2019s brilliant alternative Budget, but he\u2019s still out of order in doing so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b76e9dd8c984e5d8f32f652178ddf64\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to go back to the time when I was asked to make sure that question time was more robust, which it is, and the member David Seymour is absolutely correct, actually. I mean, on this particular\u2014I can go back through both this question and question No. 3, and there were several other instances as well. I think it\u2019s properly noted, but I\u2019m not going to ask the member to apologise for it. Actually, that\u2019s based on\u2014you know, there\u2019s been a number of accusations, and the member himself in his supplementary questions, and I\u2019m not going to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ef7c0268107d4692b2f1b42acc05bbc6\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Transport\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u002242ca4856f99745c98048902f07fb7690\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242ca4856f99745c98048902f07fb7690\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour\u2014Northcote)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: What announcements has he made about rebuilding transport networks in cyclone-affected regions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u0022a24c496c13b64cf3a71f86574bdd3eaa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a24c496c13b64cf3a71f86574bdd3eaa\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Last Sunday, I announced the next steps in our work to repair road and rail networks across the cyclone-affected parts of the North Island. Our Government is stepping up to cover more of the costs of clearance and rebuild so that councils can progress the repair work without having to rely so much on increasing rates. We\u2019ve earmarked $275 million of additional funding for Waka Kotahi and local councils to repair affected roads, and up to $200 million to repair the rail network; this is on top of the $250 million that the Government announced immediately after Cyclone Gabrielle, which has already helped to restore vital roading connections in recent months. Collectively, this funding means that Waka Kotahi will be able to consider requests from affected regions for higher levels of direct financial support to rebuild roads, taking pressure off local communities. The steps that we\u2019ve taken will provide certainty to those communities that the Government will continue to support councils to ensure that necessary repairs can be done without them having to worry that ratepayers will be left to foot the bill alone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c99ab5e42c154b2f852869335cca083e\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: What key roads has the funding made available by the Government so far helped to reopen across cyclone-affected regions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1964ae38d3c4cf3a3685dbeb11967e7\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: I want to thank Waka Kotahi, local councils, contractors, and workers all across cyclone- and flooding-affected areas for their hard work on restoring connections. A few key examples of important connections that have been restored include State Highway 1 over the Brynderwyns, which was reopened in March, thanks in part to our emergency funding, and further work to improve drainage and stabilise slips. State Highway 5 between Napier and Taup\u014D was reopened in March as well, thanks to the tireless work of local roading crews, and work continues to restore it to normal levels of service. Just this weekend, my colleague the Associate Minister the Hon Kiri Allan marked the completion of the Waikari Bailey bridge, which means that State Highway 2 between Napier and Wairoa is now open\u2014something that was very much welcomed by the affected communities. The funding we have made available so far has helped to reopen these key State highways and has supported hundreds of local roads to reopen across cyclone- and flooding-affected regions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f256046e97234a58beb6d791e5b0416f\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: How will the new funding that has been announced help to restore rail networks?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edddb4eba434404491014a911796d88c\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: In addition to the investment in the roading network, we\u2019ve also made new funding available to repair the rail lines that were damaged during the extreme weather. Repair work is and will be focused on the North Auckland line, the Palmerston North to Gisborne line, the Auckland metropolitan network, the North Island Main Trunk, and the East Coast Main Trunk. This will get our rail network back into action by investing to repair the rail tracks, sleepers, bridges, and other structures that were damaged, and to clear debris from the tracks caused by slips and wash-outs. This is a critical part of restoring local supply chains and getting freight moving again in the affected regions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229834f2e96b8c4dd6b31a617cba3df10d\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: What other milestones can he report on efforts to rebuild cyclone-affected transport networks?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd01cf6915834523b5386c3f9ab34f3f\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: Last week, I was very pleased in Thames to confirm, alongside Mayor Len Salt, that Waka Kotahi is starting work on a bridge to reconnect State Highway 25A across the Coromandel Peninsula. This is a crucial step in restoring connectivity for communities and businesses in the Thames-Coromandel region. We know that our regions rely on a resilient roading network to connect the smaller and more isolated communities, and our Government is committed to supporting them as we rebuild from the cyclone and floods from earlier this year. We continue to provide the financial support in response to this extreme event, and we will continue to do so to support our communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ebaf031a3f344e91af988a58c780dcf6\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Justice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8eac06296b14eaca1ac033e5eb751ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8eac06296b14eaca1ac033e5eb751ed\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: Has she seen reports that 26 beds will be taken away from meth addicts if A Place to Be rehabilitation centre in \u014Ct\u0101huhu closes because funding is no longer available from the Proceeds of Crime Fund; if so, is that consistent with her statement that the Government will focus on prevention and intervention when dealing with violent crime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9960e13316046e7a33a111d8b1d18e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9960e13316046e7a33a111d8b1d18e2\u0022\u003EHon KIRITAPU ALLAN (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I am aware of the claims that have been made in the media over the weekend, and yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280e707adf0604def9a71be6c528025a2\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t it the case that community organisations like the \u014Ct\u0101huhu centre, which has helped a thousand people recover from addiction, can\u2019t access the fund because this Government has allocated most of the fund barricading retail workers in their shops because crime is out of control?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab7d78353e664e8e8cbfb8035736d3d6\u0022\u003EHon KIRITAPU ALLAN\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b898856fc0dd4b9d81943ea6da2c8a2e\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: How\u2019s it possible that this Government has spent over $2.5 billion on justice and mental health, yet vulnerable New Zealanders with addictions are missing out on vital rehabilitation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b16191532a924c0090f115f4fbdf2411\u0022\u003EHon KIRITAPU ALLAN\u003C/span\u003E: I absolutely refute the grounds and the statements made in that supplementary question. Let\u2019s be very clear about what our Government is investing in terms of specifically methamphetamine rehabilitation programmes. I\u2019m proud to be part of a Government that has invested millions of dollars to methamphetamine intervention prevention programmes up and down this country. For example, $20 million has been invested into over 17 programmes designed and targeted towards preventing and making interventions for those that have been caught up and embroiled within methamphetamine addictions. In addition, across the broad raft of areas and initiatives that the Government invests in to make interventions and preventions for those that have been using methamphetamine and the like, we have invested millions of dollars, both targeted towards younger members of society\u2014$53 million through the Better Pathways programme just announced in September last year. This is a Government that is squarely focused on making meaningful interventions and supporting preventative measures for those that are both addicted to substances and engaged in crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270d04ff250a742daa36cc6461ebc474d\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t one of the best ways to prevent repeat violent offenders from reoffending to intervene by putting them in prison, and, if so, why does her Government have a target to reduce the prison population by 30 percent, irrespective of the levels of crime in our community?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a8cab3e3-b023-4ce7-9f4b-2c4137029057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bed8f31b83e4c40a1031d2823db02a8\u0022\u003EHon KIRITAPU ALLAN\u003C/span\u003E: While I\u2019m not sure that that question is directly related to the primary question that the member put to us, I will note that this Government has been very clear about our intentions to make measured investment into interventions for those that have been embroiled in the trajectory of crime. A successful example of that was the $53 million that was announced by my colleague the Deputy Prime Minister, Carmel Sepuloni, and other Ministers at making targeted interventions for those particularly young offenders who have been caught up. We\u2019ve seen an over 50 percent reduction of crime committed by those particular young people because we are wrapping around support measures for those young people, making meaningful interventions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220b3bf6e818534bd697a858a4bda2a7ee\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Foreign Affairs\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf6a045dd3614f35ab93fc40ae0af43c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf6a045dd3614f35ab93fc40ae0af43c\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Foreign Affairs: How much, if any, of the $30 million of funding for the Pacific Community Climate Change Flagship Programme will be directed to constructing climate resilient infrastructure in the Pacific, and how much, if any, will be spent on management and programme development?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u0022717b070ba6d94bec9472aae0609fa544\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022717b070ba6d94bec9472aae0609fa544\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E To the first part of the question, the $30 million Climate Change Flagship investment will deliver capability and capacity across the region to enable 27 Pacific Island countries and territories of the SPC, the Pacific Community, to achieve their own climate change mitigation and adaptation priorities. This will help them access international climate finance. To be clear, climate resilient infrastructure is not a central part of this particular investment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd7d2631357b4ff797ce2998f692bc61\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I don\u2019t believe the Minister addressed that question, because while the Minister did make the point that the programme\u2019s not intended to invest in infrastructure\u2014sadly\u2014the second part of the question was how much will be spent on management and programme development, and I don\u2019t believe that was answered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c59db46b3fe24852abdffe50c37957d8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, but it was definitely addressed. You could ask more supplementaries about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5ee809f3d7d4fe491f636ddb37fb20c\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister explain why, according to her reply to written parliamentary question (PQ) 13298, $5.6 million of the Climate Change Flagship programme is going to project development, $3.9 million to project management, while only $760,000 is intended for direct support of Pacific nations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022659dbe3149584938ad653600f6d6613c\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: There were a number of PQs that were in response to questions asked by that member, but let me be very clear: I did clarify in written question 8330 that in relation to adaptation, $43.3 million has been spent on adaptation activities. If he cared to look at the range of adaptation activities that we support, we do help Pacific nations to devise their national infrastructure investment plans that help New Zealand to be able to target our funding towards projects within each of those Pacific nations to help their resilient infrastructure aspiration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215127035937b4f5ba55f138818ad1068\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister explain how using a \u201Chigh level \u2018programmatic\u2019 funding model\u201D helps build climate resilience in the Pacific, if at all?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d08893fce61474788e8cb18bc60028b\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: Quite simply put, there are four strategic pillars to our Pacific resilience approach and in being able to inform how climate finance can work for the Pacific. Firstly, we support the Pacific to accelerate climate change mitigation. We enable the Pacific to enhance their resilience and adaptation plans, as devised by them, to respond to direct climate change impacts. We support the Pacific through investing in regional institutions to improve access to climate finance through technical support, reducing administration to enable the backroom functions of targeted support to occur. And we also help to crowd in finance through the strategic investment of our own efforts so that the Pacific can be supported. If we did not do that, it would be very difficult for the Pacific to access international climate finance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280f44da0e45b4047b4e2715785acac7b\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: How much, if any, of this $30 million funding is going to pay the salaries of more than 54 full-time Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade (MFAT) staff working on climate change - related work, and why wasn\u2019t this money simply given to Pacific countries to directly fund climate resilient infrastructure projects, like Australia and Japan are doing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2edd509d46a47a4aedd6da36221d212\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA\u003C/span\u003E: That member misrepresents the nature of this particular funding, which goes to a regional institution, the Pacific Community. It will help the region to reduce duplication, improve coordination, create a platform to leverage additional funds to the region. It\u2019s an important investment for the Pacific. MFAT is funded through its own baselines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c889a38080614cf0a052752e557d67a8\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5e4c3539015404abc4d29678e195019\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5e4c3539015404abc4d29678e195019\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: Why has she been unable to deliver the 82 promised attendance officers in time for term 2, when she said, \u201CIt is urgent, we know that we have got an issue around attendance. We need to get the resources in front of our young people now\u201D, and can she explain her statement in relation to why just one officer had started working with schools as of 9 May that \u201CI have had constant discussions with my officials. There seems to be excuses all the time\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6d3e83121594dea9e8569545a9b1e1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6d3e83121594dea9e8569545a9b1e1f\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E We are delivering the 82 attendance officers, and it is urgent. It was never the goal to have all 82 employed by the start of term 2; that\u2019s just not feasible. The roll-out was always planned to start from term 2. To the second part of the question: at that point in time, I was frustrated by the lack of progress in hiring attendance officers. As of today, contract negotiations are under way with 76 of the 82 roles. The remaining six are set aside for services to M\u0101ori-medium schools. Nine percent of the positions are filled. That is very promising progress, but I will continue to keep a close eye on how that is tracking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222b949fe3201463cb8d4f0d93fec4204\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: Why has the average time to re-engage an unenrolled student in Auckland more than tripled since 2017, increasing from 82 days to 260 days in March this year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226034f58202c74bc7829df49b7bee9009\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: I want every student enrolled, attending, and engaged in school every day unless they are sick. These kids aren\u2019t going to start attending overnight, but that doesn\u2019t mean we have given up on them. We know that there is an issue, which is exactly why we are putting the measures in place that we are putting in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221afb23bf9f34439188f1fcc39fc36254\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: Why are the unjustified absences continuing to increase to the point now where they are the highest on record, an 80 percent increase since 2017?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022237cebb04b2e46339effd476fc25f139\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: As I have just said, we know that there is an issue. We also know that these do not turn around overnight, but we have seen pleasing progress in the term 4 data.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c026416ad59b4e9e8b08046cd2e1561b\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: When she told Cabinet in February that there is a significant gap between her target of 70 percent of students attending school regularly by next year and current attendance rates, which are just at 50 percent, did she expect to only have delivered three officers after three months?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dca6156685e40f595cc9d53f77c11b2\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: The member is wrong. We have more than three officers on the ground right now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022292f2f716b064d40b8b24ee4e61dd893\u0022\u003EErica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: Why are schools turning down her attendance officers, with one principal reported as stating that \u201CI was disappointed. It wasn\u2019t what I thought or had been led to believe these positions would be.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b3ee22261b045b2bea9b579dc91ea2d\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI\u003C/span\u003E: I met with that principal on Friday, having set the meeting much earlier in the week. I spoke about the concerns that that principal had. I\u2019ve instructed the ministry to work with her and that cluster to find solutions that work for them. I\u2019m aware she was concerned the roles wouldn\u2019t include a case management function, and I\u2019ve ensured there is flexibility for this in the job description.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229babd5e23e7d45fd9c629b97efbaa8e3\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca48fad79ba747a08a006ff69e71cd65\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca48fad79ba747a08a006ff69e71cd65\u0022\u003EDr ELIZABETH KEREKERE \u003C/span\u003Eto the Minister of Health: T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te M\u0101ngai. E tautoko ana i ng\u0101 mihi kua mihia i t\u0113nei w\u0101 p\u014Duri. Haere e ng\u0101 mate ki te puna wairua, ki te puna roimata, ki te puna tangata, haere atu r\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003E[Thank you, Mr Speaker. I support the acknowledgments made at this sad time. To our dearly departed, go on to the spiritual source, the source of tears, the source of humanity, go in peace.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003EDoes she agree with the report by BERL that the quantity of data on rare disorders is strikingly low, so it is not possible to accurately estimate their prevalence here; if so, what steps is Te Whatu Ora taking to collect such data to inform policies and improve health outcomes for people living with rare disorders in Aotearoa?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u002284ede0398b69498285e9776f25e6ac91\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284ede0398b69498285e9776f25e6ac91\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E In answer to the second part of the question, we have made great steps to improve the health outcomes and policies for people living with rare disorders in Aotearoa. Following a boost in Government funding, Pharmac has recently made available drugs used to treat rare disorders, including risdiplam and nusinersen for spinal muscular atrophy, and Trikafta for cystic fibrosis. The funding of Trikafta supports an expected outcome of 27 years\u2019 additional life expectancy. On the policy front, Manat\u016B Hauora is leading development of a rare disorders strategy. This will include looking into how to further improve health outcomes and support for people with rare disorders. In answer to the first part of the question, it\u2019s true there are thousands of rare disorders, and each may affect only a few New Zealanders. Currently, we do not have sufficient data to accurately measure how many New Zealanders are affected by rare disorders overall. As part of developing a strategy, the ministry and Te Whatu Ora, together with Rare Disorders New Zealand and other organisations, will consider how best to collect this data and also to provide digital support to help improve access to information and quality care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227ec53e32-05ab-4c6b-a080-4024e72a9099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223548591fd5e040c78ce8dcb06a892d6d\u0022\u003EDr Elizabeth Kerekere\u003C/span\u003E: What rare disorders are currently coded for in the New Zealand health system, and what options are you considering to improve this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fff5cdb013e40dd88751ad3017fe2d8\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealand currently codes hospital discharges according to the International Classification of Diseases system established and administered by the World Health Organization. This national-level data includes hospital discharges and associated diagnostic codes. There are some codes for rare disorders in there that are helpful to inform inpatient care. However, not all rare disorders are covered, or don\u2019t have a specific enough code, and they may not allow reliable identification of people who have these disorders. Improving information about rare disorders will be considered as part of the ministry\u2019s work on a strategy for rare disorders in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c7583e443f31495182a47ca4302e40b1\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022cccd626d863b48c1975ffae8d3e797e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cccd626d863b48c1975ffae8d3e797e3\u0022\u003EDr ANAE NERU LEAVASA (Labour\u2014Takanini)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: How is the Government supporting the health and wellbeing of those significantly impacted by the recent North Island weather events?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3455b4b69204f64b8bfaffcacc8dff1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3455b4b69204f64b8bfaffcacc8dff1\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E On Sunday, I announced dedicated investment into mental health and wellbeing support as part of the Government\u2019s cyclone recovery package. We know, from other disasters in New Zealand and globally, that mental health and wellbeing impacts emerge over months and years following a disaster. So, following on from our initial response, we\u2019re now setting up services to support the community for the coming years. In addition, through the Access and Choice services that are already existing, we\u2019ve been able to face this disaster with accessible services already on the ground.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231c1ca4adf43429cb05d2f0653ebc0e0\u0022\u003EDr Anae Neru Leavasa\u003C/span\u003E: What mental health initiatives will be available for the impacted communities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223838350a13634826b709c23b08830e01\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has set aside $6.3 million for locally led community-based initiatives to meet the wellbeing needs of people in the most impacted areas, with a focus on M\u0101ori, Pacific peoples, and youth. Recovery plans will be developed with local communities to identify their needs, along with proposed interventions such as initiatives for people who have lost their homes and boosting telehealth capacity. We are also providing additional funding to expand the successful Mana Ake programme to Hawke\u2019s Bay and Tair\u0101whiti to provide mental wellbeing support in primary schools and for intermediate students.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e1a9344a72648cc882497ea12c992a4\u0022\u003EDr Anae Neru Leavasa\u003C/span\u003E: How will the Government support isolated communities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205e5220e81894374b3686d631519a728\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: We also know the devastating weather events made it harder for some people to get to medical appointments or for specialists to get into affected regions to provide care. In response to this, the cyclone Budget package covers $8.9 million in funding for front-line health providers, supporting isolated communities in Northland, Tair\u0101whiti, and Hawke\u2019s Bay. This includes funding for air and road transport, helping people get to appointments, medical outreach, and other hospital services in isolated communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa46261a5d8f44bc900718a2721ce378\u0022\u003EDr Anae Neru Leavasa\u003C/span\u003E: What support will there be for primary and community care?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da3b2a38254b4eafbdb6d7442cdc1034\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve met with local GPs and community providers in the affected areas and heard about what they need. We are acting on those requests, which is why this Budget also provides $6.1 million to cover community, primary, and residential care. This funding provides workforce relief for locum GPs, pharmacy and nursing staff, an increase in funding for air ambulance for an additional six months, and improved access to online GP, community health, mental health and addiction, and registered nurse consultations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b555af27a418477dae11d66424d0de9e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Transport\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb5886f164264e5aa3266eea3142117e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb5886f164264e5aa3266eea3142117e\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN (National\u2014Pakuranga)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: Does he stand by his statement, \u201CThis over-egged story and headline are just wrong\u201D in response to reports that the door was open to delaying the delivery of some of New Zealand\u2019s most high-profile roading projects; if so, will he rule out any cuts to the NZ Upgrade Programme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022 data-id=\u0022112c03536bb1430997ab618fbb48d9f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022112c03536bb1430997ab618fbb48d9f0\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E To the first part of the question, yes. The story in question, for example, listed one significant project as potentially being subject to delays\u2014that is the Papakura to Drury State Highway 1 project, which is currently employing several hundred people and is in the middle of construction. To the second part of the question, I can rule out the prospect of any cuts to New Zealand Upgrade Programme. The Government is committed to the programme and is continuing to invest $8.7 billion to invest in critical projects up and down New Zealand, including the Ashburton rail hub, which received consent within recent weeks and is now getting on with construction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275652e905cf44ccca61c9e001324e7ad\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Minister refuse to release this table from the July New Zealand upgrade project update, and which I then had to request the Ombudsman to force the Minister to release it, because it shows that a majority of the projects have an overall health red status, and does this mean that this Government is going to delay some of these projects, or does it just show the Government is poor at delivering major transport infrastructure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218704920ed614b16b9cd735421ca1703\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the first part of the member\u2019s question, because there is a longstanding practice that free and frank advice from officials is often redacted from Official Information Act releases. In the end, I\u2019m not too worried about sweating the small stuff like the member; I\u2019d rather focus on delivering these projects that our country needs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270ffc61f27af41229605de94f3702ec0\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: So will I have to go to the Ombudsman again to get the next executive summary overall health status released, because there are more projects which have now got to red overall health status, and is this because some of these projects are going to be delayed, or is it, again, just because this Government is so poor at delivering transport projects?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279aaa8a49d48405d8335ad26e22dd21d\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: As I have confirmed in my primary answer, none of these projects will be delayed, and I can also confirm that none of them will be put, for example, into a botched public private partnership, like Transmission Gully, that we had to fix up to deliver for the people of this region after the previous Government stuffed up its implementation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a62d35ecf6984f2ca3d68d3789962b8d\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Following what he said on Twitter, \u201CI haven\u2019t said anything about delays and we don\u2019t intend to do this.\u201D, will he rule out cutting or delaying the \u014Ctaki to Levin expressway promised to be completed in 2029?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228535e09a286a439493b645837a043c62\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOOD\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I can absolutely and categorically rule that out. I don\u2019t think I would be able to go into the caucus room with the local MP Terisa Ngobi if I did anything other than that, because she\u2019s been a passionate advocate for it, and our Government\u2019s going to get it delivered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022098b8334-57f8-4062-bac6-bfbc3474e88e\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a7fdb02c186b4540b107345a7c7481fa\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Forestry\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022 data-id=\u0022b37265eca4f346e68e8778f609174222\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b37265eca4f346e68e8778f609174222\u0022\u003EANNA LORCK (Labour\u2014Tukituki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Forestry: What recent announcement has he made about the Tair\u0101whiti and Hawke\u2019s Bay regions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022831b0773618e4cca9f9115363d2b241e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022831b0773618e4cca9f9115363d2b241e\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Minister of Forestry):\u003C/span\u003E On Sunday, I announced a $10.15 million fund to clean up slash and debris throughout Hawke\u2019s Bay and Tair\u0101whiti. Debris from forestry in these regions has had a devastating impact on infrastructure, rivers, and communities, and this fund will go some way to supporting the clean-up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b92e9aa25c54d7d978e9b5d5748019e\u0022\u003EAnna Lorck\u003C/span\u003E: Can he explain how the funding will support the Tair\u0101whiti and Hawke\u2019s Bay regions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022452215b23fd143bba01c5a0f2de41bb3\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: This funding aims to remove up to 70,000 tonnes of woody debris from rivers and catchment systems, and also support the establishment of slash management traps to contain debris from entering waterways in the first instance. This $10 million fund is on top of the $1 billion flood and cyclone recovery package recently announced by my colleague the Minister of Finance. That covers the basics of rebuilding roads, rail, and schools while preparing for future events, with a big investment in flood protection measures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022659b59947e524f168573d1f6196f61b5\u0022\u003EAnna Lorck\u003C/span\u003E: How does this announcement relate to the findings of the ministerial inquiry into woody debris\u2014including forestry slash\u2014and sediment in Tair\u0101whiti and Wairoa?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f5b7da08e6e4f64a4c95cb56b4a09b6\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: The inquiry\u2019s report made it clear we need to get the woody debris out of the waterways, and I\u2019m committed to supporting the communities to do this. The Government is also continuing to focus on initiatives that help reduce the impacts of severe weather events by investing $25.2 million over the next four years to protect around 21,000 hectares of erosion-prone hill country farmland across Aotearoa New Zealand. These initiatives directly support the findings and recommendations of the inquiry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224b53c8fa-5ba4-4150-98be-dd23e49cf0bb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc61ba96de5f4491b6a40919601bd40a\u0022\u003EAnna Lorck\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister think this funding is enough?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022849042a1639c47d8b3c00c4cd5a4472f\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: This $10.15 million announcement is a start. While we\u2019re urgently looking into the findings of the report, we need to get on with the clean-up, and this funding will start that. We all have a part to play: central government, local councils, iwi, the forestry industry, and our communities. We must urgently get on with the mahi to help the Tair\u0101whiti and Hawke\u2019s Bay regions. As a Government, we are moving with urgency to provide support, as mentioned in my previous answers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00229026ddc3f7544f9dac31278c92c6ac49\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229026ddc3f7544f9dac31278c92c6ac49\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for further consideration of the Appropriation (2021/22 Confirmation and Validation) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227233fcbcd6064a99b43225d4574dceb7\u0022\u003EAnnual Review Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022073e617a39f54945bff92c08b22018e1\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000268\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 9 May on the Appropriation (2021/22 Confirmation and Validation) Bill.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4c39996187d48beb60bd01bab78103c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4c39996187d48beb60bd01bab78103c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The House is in committee for the Appropriation (2021/22 Confirmation and Validation) Bill. This is the debate on the financial position of the Government and the annual reviews of departments, Officers of Parliament, Crown entities, public organisations, and State enterprises as reported on by select committees. There are 44 minutes remaining for this debate. The time for this debate has been allocated to parties on a proportional basis. Each debate will be led off by the chairperson or another member of the select committee that considered annual reviews most closely related to the Minister\u2019s portfolios. The Minister of Agriculture is now available for the remainder of the debate to respond to members\u2019 questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002265e323ebb1f14eed963b8d07650f4aca\u0022\u003EAgriculture\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022288783df-ade6-42d2-bd21-06ffa87dedf8\u0022 data-id=\u0022592c3f748a5d4bfeadd4de80c009e038\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022288783df-ade6-42d2-bd21-06ffa87dedf8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022592c3f748a5d4bfeadd4de80c009e038\u0022\u003ESTEPH LEWIS (Chairperson of the Primary Production Committee):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. It\u2019s my pleasure as the chair of the Primary Production Committee to lead this afternoon\u2019s debate. I want to begin by thanking members of the Primary Production Committee, and our officials who responded to questions during the course of our hearings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022288783df-ade6-42d2-bd21-06ffa87dedf8\u0022\u003EAs per the previous two years, we decided to consider our report on the primary sector as a whole, rather than reporting on each separate entity. We\u2019ve had hearings from the Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI), from Land Information New Zealand, P\u0101mu Farms, and Crown Irrigation Investments. We also had written reports from Animal Control Products Ltd, AssureQuality Ltd, New Zealand Walking Access Commission, and Quotable Value.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022288783df-ade6-42d2-bd21-06ffa87dedf8\u0022\u003EI want to also acknowledge, as the officials in our hearings and the Ministers in our hearings did, the impact that both Cyclone Hale and Cyclone Gabrielle have had on our primary industries\u2014the devastation that our food producers and growers over the course of those two cyclones have experienced between Northland, all the way down as far as the Wairarapa, particularly impacted on the west coast. So I want to acknowledge all of those affected, and acknowledge as well the Ministry for Primary Industries, who, at the time of the writing of the committee\u2019s report, had provided more than $55 million worth of support to our primary producers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022288783df-ade6-42d2-bd21-06ffa87dedf8\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to comment on some of the topics that the committee canvassed with officials during the course of the hearings\u2014in particular, around the international pressure to reduce emissions. We noted that the European Union\u2019s Carbon Border Adjustment Mechanism\u2014CBAM\u2014which is a tariff on carbon-intensive goods entering the EU, such as fertiliser and cement, will take full effect by 2026. We heard from the Minister around the negotiations in the free-trade agreements and the need for us to strive to stay at the lower end of the emissions scale for our food production; provided we can do that, we will remain in a good position. We need to ensure that we are investing in emissions-reducing technologies elsewhere, just the same as our international competitors are doing. We heard as well that the Government is invested in an emissions-reduction programme, which was pleasing to hear; it includes launching the Centre for Climate Action on Agricultural Emissions, which was opened in November 2022. The centre\u2019s purpose is to accelerate research and development and the commercialisation of tools and technology to help reduce agricultural emissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022288783df-ade6-42d2-bd21-06ffa87dedf8\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s been a lot of interest in forestry as well\u2014in particular, the overseas purchase of productive New Zealand farmland and the conversion of that to forestry. We note that both the Minister of Agriculture and the Minister of Forestry said that highly productive farmland should not be converted to forestry. We had the opportunity to talk to Toit\u016B Te Whenua\u2014or Land Information New Zealand\u2014about the special forestry test, and they advised us that both the special forestry test and the benefit to New Zealand test potentially support forestry; however, the special forestry test only allows overseas investment in existing forests, and therefore it doesn\u2019t permit carbon forestry. The land must be currently forested and the test does not allow forests to be planted on land that has not been forested in the past.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022288783df-ade6-42d2-bd21-06ffa87dedf8\u0022\u003EAlso of interest to members and the wider public was an update on the actions that MPI has taken in the last 12 months to protect New Zealand against a foot-and-mouth disease outbreak, which, obviously, we saw happen in Indonesia last year; also an update on the ministry\u2019s efforts to eradicate Mycoplasma bovis, and we heard that we are making good progress to that end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022288783df-ade6-42d2-bd21-06ffa87dedf8\u0022\u003EWe also had an update on investment from the Sustainable Food and Fibre Futures fund. To date, the total investment is sitting just under $11 million. When asked for a specific example of investment there, the Minister mentioned the joint venture with the Wool Research Organisation of New Zealand. They\u2019re working to develop a pure wool particle that has export potential in cosmetics, printing, luxury goods, and personal care industries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022abb5d1c46d2e4db49aa3bfaa780aaf32\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022abb5d1c46d2e4db49aa3bfaa780aaf32\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Todd McClay\u2014but just before I start: if members take their full five minutes, I\u2019m likely to take the next call; if they do it in a question and answer, they\u2019re likely to get some continuity. It\u2019s just the way we\u2019ll do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b997e2cd79f04433a75a7a7d91d635ca\u0022\u003EHon Todd McClay\u003C/span\u003E: If I may, point of order, Mr Chair. I\u2019d just like clarification: that doesn\u2019t mean we need to take a full five; someone else can intervene and we can come back for the remainder of the time by party?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd0650dde4084fb1abb6c8e039f8c21f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: If the member takes the full five, then I\u2019m likely to give the call to another member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u002253c685dff3764df09b99925ec07712ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253c685dff3764df09b99925ec07712ce\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (National\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much. Mr Chair, thank you, and I won\u2019t take my full five but there will be many questions from this side of the House. The reason for that is\u2014on behalf of farmers in New Zealand, what they want is short, sharp questions and short, sharp answers, and they want solutions. They don\u2019t want very long explanations that are actually making it harder for them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003ESo I have some direct questions to the Minister about what\u2019s happened over the last year. But going back longer than that, for the time that he has been the Minister of Agriculture, you\u2019re going to see, all up and down the country, farmers saying to anybody who is talking to them, anybody that will listen, that it is now harder than ever before to be a farmer. And it\u2019s harder because they don\u2019t get the recognition that they deserve\u2014they need\u2014from the Government, and that more and more rules and regulations are being piled upon them. So my question to the Minister is: what did he do over the last year\u2014or three or four years\u2014to stop the excessive amount of rules and regulations that have been imposed upon farmers? More than 20 changes, and counting, and more, that are piling costs on them, many of which are not actually making the changes that the Government has said that they want to. So that\u2019s a first question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003ESecond question would be: where is it that he, as a Minister, on behalf of farmers in New Zealand, is asking questions around the Cabinet table about if these rules are necessary and what is the extra cost and the extra burden? Because today the cost on farm is greater than it has ever been at any time in the history of this country\u2014it costs farmers more today to run their farms. They spend 20 to 30 percent of their time filling out paperwork to send off to this Minister and his colleagues and it\u2019s hard for them to do what we need them to do, which is actually continue to work hard in the rural communities and export for us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EAnd I want to give one example of this, and here is my third question for the Minister: when he and his Government decided that there was a blanket rule for the whole country around winter grazing for animals on slopes of greater than 10 degrees, did he decide at that time that that actually was necessary, even on parts of the country where there was no environmental harm being done? And did he ask for advice to decide that up to 10,000 resource consents that will be needed in New Zealand for farmers to be able to get on and just farm in areas they always have\u2014where there isn\u2019t any environmental risk or damage\u2014at a cost of $100 million was justified and was OK? And when we came out a short while ago and said we wanted to make changes around this to protect the environment and go on a catchment-by-catchment approach, did he actually mean to say to farmers that these farmers need to understand that all the new rules and regulations that he and his Government are imposing on them are for their own good? Did he honestly think that, actually, they need a Minister of Agriculture that tells them they don\u2019t know what they\u2019re doing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7931a95952947e090428c9e1dc4f300\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7931a95952947e090428c9e1dc4f300\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m more than happy to answer some of the questions here. The member, who\u2019s new to the portfolio and new to farming\u2014I\u2019m happy to give him some advice. What has got us to where we are now\u2014and we are one of the proudest and most innovative and efficient farming countries in the world\u2014won\u2019t be enough to get us to where we need to go. And if he hasn\u2019t noticed, and he should have as a former trade Minister, as you get out around the world, there are different requirements being imposed upon us and different expectations from consumers now than there were even five years ago, because the issues of climate change are now very acute. Be it fires and droughts around the world, or be it massive floods, people are aware that we all have to do our bit while producing food to feed the world. Aside from the fact that we waste one-third of all the food that we produce in the world, we in this country are efficient, but we are still challenged by some of those things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EHis first question was: what did I do to advocate for farming. Well, he can go back many, many years to look at my advocacy for farmers, not just now but, actually, farmers for the future, because if we don\u2019t have enough young people coming in to farming to learn the skills, to acquire the capital to take over, then the older farmers\u2014and there are quite a few of them\u2014won\u2019t be able to sell their farms on to those other farmers. I have staunchly advocated for the requirements for new sustainable farming systems and I will continue to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EHe asked another question regarding the costs on farmers. I acknowledge the war in Ukraine and global inflation has imposed, in the last 12 months, inflation on farming systems that is not sustainable. Thankfully, those prices on fertiliser and fuel in particular, are starting to come right back, and that\u2019s great because I don\u2019t think that our farming systems, no matter how good they are, could sustain those for too long. We now have talk of dairy farmers requiring an $8 per kilogram of milk solids payment to break even. Well, it\u2019s not because of\u2014and I contest his claim that farmers are having to spend hours and hours in compliance costs for the Government. Well, there are some for councils; there are some for their processing companies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThere are more requirements coming from the market back on traceability\u2014National Animal Identification and Tracing (NAIT). When we got into Government, the previous National Government had ignored the value, the importance of the NAIT system. And so when they delivered to this incoming Government not only Mycoplasma bovis as a disease and had done nothing about it\u2014nothing\u2014and delivered for us a NAIT system that was failed and broken, we had to impose upon the farmers a bit more kind of discipline around NAIT and to get on with eradicating M. bovis. Now, we\u2019ve got almost to that point, we have one farm. And I want to thank all of those farmers and thank all the people in the Ministry for Primary Industries and across this country who have committed a lot to try and eradicate M. bovis. There are more costs on farmers, there are more requirements because that\u2019s what the market consumers demand, be they people at the supermarket shelf or be they customers like Nestl\u00E9, the single biggest customer to the single biggest company in this country, Fonterra. They are demanding of Fonterra and all their suppliers a whole lot more requirements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ECan I just refer to\u2014there were claims of 10,000 consents. The kind of rhetoric and ranting that we saw when it came to what would be required for winter grazing. I think we\u2019ve got about 100 consents or 200 consents that have been applied for, a small number in reality. And even if there are other farmers that maybe need one and haven\u2019t applied, the reality is that the clear signals that we sent from this Government to farmers about those market requirements, that images of animals standing in half a metre of mud projected around the world are not good for our country and do not project the high standards that the vast majority of farmers in this country adhere to. Those farmers were saying \u201CDeal to those farmers who don\u2019t have proper winter grazing practice.\u201D Indeed we have. We\u2019ve moved on, and in fact we\u2019ve put in place some clear guidelines and so that the number of consents applied for is minuscule compared to the number that were projected by the doomsdayers, sayers, and prayers and all the rest of them out there who said the sky was going to fall. And what I have to say is: $55 billion record exports from our primary producers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to acknowledge my colleagues in the Primary Production Committee who have provided this overview. And, in fact, we hear claims of parties wanting to know where money is spent in Government. Well, I trust the Primary Production Committee\u2014members from all parties, they can ask any question they like about any area of expenditure here and they have and good on you to know where money is being spent. We don\u2019t need some kind of stupid system of receipts for every bit of each Government expenditure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ECan I also acknowledge, while I\u2019m here, my ministerial colleagues in the areas of forestry and fishing; my associates, who have done an outstanding job to guide us in a time of so much change, of so many climatic adverse events and new expectations from the markets. We are taking our primary sectors\u2014the most important part of our economy\u2014into a sustainable future, not burying our heads in the sand like the previous National Government did when it came to agriculture.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u0022119fdaa1d1aa4bdc978e7e12a134282c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022119fdaa1d1aa4bdc978e7e12a134282c\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Well, Minister, I\u2019m one of those people that actually goes home wondering why the hell I do it, to be quite frank with you. I\u2019m a dairy farmer\u2014operational dairy farmer. I don\u2019t evangelise and offer priestly sermons about how other people should run their businesses, but I can tell you: $339 million on the Centre for Climate Change Action on Agricultural Emissions\u2014what does that look like when an emissions pricing scheme is being asserted on a primary sector? Minister, can you please tell this committee today what annualised costs in terms of productivity losses we\u2019re going to see? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003ETo speak to the sheep meat sector, Minister; the wool sector\u2014one in five of those people is potentially going out of business. Can you please reconcile that statement in a Government discussion document, as proposed, that suggested one in five people are going to go out of business? Now I\u2019ve got to go home to these people and tell them it\u2019s all good\u2014that this Government actually cares. I can\u2019t reconcile that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EAnd what of methane mitigation technology, Minister? When is it going to be commercially available? Boluses into 2.5 million animal ruminants in the beef sector that happen to be 600 and 700 kilograms? What kind of malarkey are we talking here? I understand mitochondrial DNA and ruminant bacteria; I work with it every day\u2014every day. I understand what I put down my animals\u2019 necks comes by virtue of outcomes as methane. What interventions are you asserting here in this Centre for Climate Change Action which will help ameliorate those emissions and not drive people off their farms? Minister, can you please answer this House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3c390994f254f9a97447b9ca5b08836\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3c390994f254f9a97447b9ca5b08836\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d hate to think that I don\u2019t answer any of the questions, the relevant ones. Can I just, firstly, point out the ranting and rhetoric of the idea that one in five would go out of business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b2923992a864a248f9ee07060abbeca\u0022\u003EMark Cameron\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s your document.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5c09590ea3e45598cd3e84208e8f0f0\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: It is not the document. What the document says\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2f8c5a52fbc4d4a9c145f2d4d5b37ef\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: They were your numbers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b67227f64e404d5cb35782cf5522e4e1\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Can I read for the\u2014would you like to listen? Would you like to listen? The discussion document models that sheep and beef net revenue and production could drop by about 20 percent. That makes no reference at all\u2014no reference at all\u2014to the viability. Can I suggest to the member, if he is a proper farmer, that he\u2019s probably incurred that kind of drop in production through drought or through adverse events; the member\u2019s still in business. The reality\u2014and I have to acknowledge the resilience of New Zealand farmers and farming systems\u2014is that they do incur, without subsidy, some huge variations in production costs from year to year because of a whole lot of climatic conditions. They\u2019ve been able to mitigate that with some supplementary feeds at times, but through droughts and through floods and through the kinds of things that we\u2019re now seeing in Hawke\u2019s Bay, there are massive impacts, sometimes, on farmers\u2019 production. This discussion document\u2014on a model, which I personally think should be challenged, this is just modelling\u2014said that net revenue could drop. That\u2019s all it says; not that 20 percent are going to go out of business. That\u2019s the kind of irresponsible leadership from members in the House for political purposes that has, understandably, caused concern across the farming sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ECan I just go on to the $335 million\u2014yes, we did commit that to climate change initiatives, to the Global Research Alliance and the Centre for Climate Change Action on Agricultural Emissions that we have here; $170 million in partnership with progressive New Zealand agribusiness firms, and more are interested in coming on board, and there are many areas of international research. I\u2019ve just come from the biggest gathering of agriculture Ministers in the US that they\u2019ve seen, last week, talking about climate change and about how we progress these areas of science. There are boluses being worked on that can be put into the animals and reduce methane.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b77fdf3ca184b3594e411498f9f825b\u0022\u003EMark Cameron\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226919a5a7a7684feda7f8fb13313e68b6\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: There is\u2014no, it\u2019s not rubbish at all. If the member would lift his head up a little bit, there\u2019s work going on with thanitropes. There\u2019s selective breeding programmes. There\u2019s monitoring of both cattle and sheep in New Zealand to identify those that, just because they are different, emit 20 percent less methane from the sheep or the animal beside them\u2014just because of genetic difference. If we can identify those, as we have across all other areas of farming\u2014we have the Livestock Improvement Corporation arguably being one of the best genetic livestock organisations in the world. They have identified those that produce more and selectively bred from them, just as we can with lower methane emissions from ruminant livestock.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThis is one of a number of areas that is being worked on. There is Dutch technology that, if fed on a regular basis to animals, can reduce methane from those animals by up to 30 to 40 percent. We can\u2019t apply that at the moment to a pastoral farming system, but those are the areas that are being investigated by the partnership, by the Global Research Alliance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EAnd, indeed, in summary from the few days I had in Washington, none of us had the magic answers, but I suggest that we as a country have a huge opportunity to lead the world, to share the technology, and to ensure that livestock ruminant farming can produce high-quality protein and lower the emissions, satisfying the expectations of consumers and of our customers to be better producers of food for the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022435da1eafc1b487d9b0c0e86ad57d3a0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Nicola Grigg\u2014can I say that the National Party have seven minutes and 30 seconds left.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022 data-id=\u002248245a9606c04cafbd9633864d6505b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248245a9606c04cafbd9633864d6505b1\u0022\u003ENICOLA GRIGG (National\u2014Selwyn):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m pleased that the Minister has enlightened the Chamber that he\u2019s just returned from America, because I have too. In the meetings that I had with farming producers\u2014not Ministers, not people who sit in cushy offices; actual farmers\u2014they talk about the targets being imposed on some states across America, and fear a food reduction of up to 40 percent, Minister. So we\u2019ve got to get real about these things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003ECan I also ask the Minister to enlighten himself in reading a very educative document\u2014the National Party\u2019s first tranche of its agricultural policy\u2014called \u201CGetting Back to Farming\u201D, because that\u2019s what we\u2019re all here for, Minister: to represent a sector that just wants to farm; that just wants to produce food and create those $52 billion worth of exports that you have talked about and that your Government consequently taxes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EBut what I would actually like to start asking the Minister of this afternoon is farmer confidence. As the rural community spokesperson for the National Party and our associate agricultural spokesperson, it sets cold fear in my heart when I start to see surveys from farming representatives and lobby groups that are the worst we have seen in decades\u2014some might say since the 1980s crashes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EA net 81 percent of farmer respondents\u2014Federated Farmers\u2019 most recent survey\u2014expect economic conditions to deteriorate in the next 12 months. Their top three concerns, Minister, are the climate change policy and the emissions trading scheme. We are talking about 5.4 percent of respondents expecting their production to decline over the next year and that their spending will increase\u201424 percent of them\u2014over the next 12 months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003ESo while the Minister wishes away this country\u2019s inflation and blames a war in the Ukraine, the Minister needs to turn to his own Government\u2019s domestic spending and actually acknowledge that that is driving inflation in this country; that is driving the 20-odd percent of on-farm inflation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003EI asked the Minister in the Primary Production Committee recently, and I wasn\u2019t satisfied with the answer, so I ask it again: when the Prime Minister talked about his regulations bonfire and that too much, too fast has been occurring under this Labour Government, what has he looked at? What has he sought to review in the agricultural space, because the National Party has identified hundreds of double-ups across regulations that, yes, also include local government, but these are set by central government. What has he done to start to look for regulation reduction in the agricultural sector so that it does not harm on-farm productivity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca7a9bc793ce4dbbbb7a9a8ce74b3768\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca7a9bc793ce4dbbbb7a9a8ce74b3768\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll start at the beginning, where the member set off, and that was saying to \u201CGet Wellington out of farming; let farmers get on with it.\u201D That\u2019s a kind of a noble little rant, again, because when it comes to biosecurity, the first thing the farming sector needs is for us to run a really robust biosecurity system, checking on everything that\u2019s imported into the country. [Interruption] Excuse me, excuse me. So do you think the farmers themselves can do that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe second thing is food safety\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022165d53c6aa134e4b9734b924c9da1671\u0022\u003ENicola Grigg\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chair, can I ask the question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f150891dff942f2b5a4472af35d318a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: No. The Minister has the floor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247fcbf5a0ab14bc99674894386bfb12c\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014so we can produce lots of things on the farm but they need to meet a standard that meets our market requirements. So if the member wanted to deliver on her little rant, it would be, \u201CGet out of our food safety systems. Get out of our food safety systems.\u201D, because I hear that kind of rhetoric coming from people all the time: \u201CGet out of our lives.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223397c276135541cca15b679a0398f43a\u0022\u003ENicola Grigg\u003C/span\u003E: Yes!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f33f9dc0d7847deb3952e1915e28219\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Here we go again. So we\u2019ll take away all the biosecurity systems in the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002293272d4e-6912-4148-8b35-c9622e18b814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225889def00a6d48fd8f0869047aa5a56c\u0022\u003ENicola Grigg\u003C/span\u003E: I wasn\u2019t asking about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df2b4eb775044359993db59dcc54b38a\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I see. You\u2019re very selective of where you should be able to. It\u2019s all very well to be selective. And then when it comes to things like adverse events, where in the 1990s under the National Government, there was no support\u2014no support whatsoever\u2014regardless of the events that occurred through this country. It was post-1980s; no subsidies, no support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWhen we came into Government in 1999, a Labour Government said, \u201CIt\u2019s not really sustainable; people in rural areas can\u2019t handle this burden on their own.\u201D So we intervened and we continue to do that. Hundreds of millions of dollars, literally, to Hawke\u2019s Bay, Northland, and we will continue to do that because we value and understand the importance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s not getting out of our lives; that\u2019s supporting where necessary. And we will continue to do that through robust biosecurity systems, through food safety systems that maintain our reputation, because we might like to claim all the credit, but the reputation we have internationally for our food safety is because of what our ancestors did: adhering to the expectations of the markets and imposing upon themselves the self-discipline to make sure that nothing went offshore that was unsafe. That\u2019s Government providing good guidance and regulations, not getting out of our lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EIf we can go on to animal welfare, because that was kind of taken for granted\u2014we\u2019re good animal farmers. Well, the reality is with social media and the world we live in now, one example of animal abuse can be around the world in the flash of an eye. Unfortunately\u2014and we all accept there will be some odd occasions\u2014without robust regulation, without Government guiding the farming sector and every other sector of our economy, we will be judged by the lowest common denominator. And that means that as food producers to the most discerning customers in the world, we would not have a future. So we need good regulation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWhere we make mistakes, we\u2019re prepared to change them. The slope maps on the freshwater farm regulations\u2014we\u2019ve made the adjustments. We don\u2019t claim to be perfect and we will work with the industry body and organisations to make the adjustment necessary. But you cannot get Government out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ELastly, I\u2019ll finish on the one intervention that we as a Labour Government are quite proud of\u2014because the previous National Government said, \u201CWell, we\u2019re not going to get in there.\u201D\u2014which is the eradication of Mycoplasma bovis. We\u2019re proud of that intervention, we\u2019re proud of committing hundreds of millions of taxpayers\u2019 dollars to help farmers so they can run efficient farming systems, because if Mycoplasma bovis was here, go and talk to a couple of farmers who were hit with it. We are lucky to have the systems we have in place now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWe will always be prepared, as a Labour Government, to intervene where necessary. And if it\u2019s not perfect, we\u2019ll make the adjustments to regulation. But it\u2019s a partnership model, not some ideology that says, \u201CWe should get on and do what we want and get Government out of our way.\u201D That\u2019s idiocy and ideology.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca822d831a634746813b0a158ec081e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca822d831a634746813b0a158ec081e6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Teanau Tuiono\u2014you have four minutes and 16 seconds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022a36080236e3943668ce404b41bc04c56\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a36080236e3943668ce404b41bc04c56\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. First of all, I\u2019d like to acknowledge the Minister\u2019s work in terms of shepherding through the Organic Products and Production Bill. That was something that was widely celebrated around the organics community, and, in particular, from us here as the Greens as well. Yes, good things take time, like the old man in the cheese ad says, but this one finally got over the line.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EBut my questions are around just kind of dropping down in terms of that regulation space, in terms of the work that the Minister has done to support that sector around standard-setting, around education, possibly, but also around putting in that support to actually help the organics sector to realise the economic opportunities, but also stepping back from that, recognising that when you work well with the land, what that means in terms of the climate crisis that we\u2019re living in at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EOn top of that, I was wondering if the Minister could also talk to us a bit about that time period between now and when the floods hit in Hawke\u2019s Bay\u2014as someone who lives on this side of the Ruahines, I saw the tonne of water coming down\u2014and acknowledge that there needs to be a lot of work done to support farmers, to support the producers and growers as well, and the sort of work that he could be doing within that space in terms of supporting farmers to become more climate-resilient, but also looking at that mitigation space as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022e21dadb7dbd74d6caef49393163868fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e21dadb7dbd74d6caef49393163868fe\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Firstly, I\u2019ll just get up and acknowledge that, actually, agriculture\u2019s probably the least partisan of any issues across this Parliament. I acknowledge that support for the primary sectors from most MPs in this House. As I say, through the Primary Production Committee, I think there\u2019s a whole lot of really good work, and all the members have spoken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EBriefly, on a couple of the issues raised: the organic legislation that we passed was our best attempt, and it was a request from the sector to say that we need some consistency so that when we go into different markets, people trust our brand. I think it was a huge step forward. It will offer some certainty for the organic growers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EIn terms of education, two of the things that I think we are very proud of are Taratahi and Telford, two training establishments that have a long history, a proud history of bringing many people in. I heard last night that Telford had trained a number of the dairy industry winners\u2014quite proud of that. These are people who started, went through these establishments\u2014but they kind of ran amok, and, I have to say, it was the previous Government that tried to merge them and muck around with them, and they failed, and now we\u2019ve been picking them up and trying to get them up and running again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWhat is taught is different now. What needs to be taught is different, and so we\u2019re working through the reforms\u2014Te Ara Paerangi. They\u2019re working through different programmes to ensure that what we do put up in front of these young people is relevant to both their employers but also to the future needs that they may be faced with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI think that one of the things that was discussed\u2014and I accept the previous speaker\u2019s reference to, in the US, the farmers having these things imposed upon them by the states. Can I say that the reason for that is not because any legislators like to impose stuff on farmers; it\u2019s that there\u2019s a need for them. Just as it\u2019s happening in the US, and farmers are struggling to understand it, the same thing is happening here. But there was a lot of talk of regenerative agriculture. For the most part, most New Zealand farmers actually operate a regenerative system\u2014rotational, pastoral grazing, and looking after the soil and not being in such a scale as to destroy the values. That\u2019s something that is an opportunity for us if we move forward with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ECan I come back to the questions from the member there. It is through new, innovative ways of using our soil, protecting our water,  and looking after our livestock and our people that, actually, we can be quite proud of the values that drive our agricultural systems. Those are the opportunities, or they create the base of opportunities for our country into the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022d907403cf07d43e2bd3a4ee7ac58664a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d907403cf07d43e2bd3a4ee7ac58664a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Joseph Mooney\u2014just a warning that National have four minutes and 44 seconds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u00225a0879d30015485baac64eab1ac9170d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a0879d30015485baac64eab1ac9170d\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. To the Minister: our farmers produce $52 billion in export receipts. New Zealand is facing a pretty challenging 12 months ahead of us. We have the biggest balance of payment deficit in the developed world, so this country needs to sell more things to the world, because we\u2019re, frankly, spending more than we\u2019re earning. Why have we not heard more from the Minister about the critical importance of the primary sector for New Zealand? If New Zealand wants to buy cellphones, wants to buy Teslas, wants to buy fridges, etc., that are manufactured overseas and that New Zealand doesn\u2019t have the capacity for, we need to be selling things to buy those, so why have we not heard more about that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThe other thing is, I note the point earlier about sheep and beef farming, that Government proposal which did say that it would reduce sheep and beef farming by 20 percent and beef and dairy by 5 percent by 2030. Two-thirds of the reduction in emissions in New Zealand could be undone by high emissions shifting overseas through doing that. Why haven\u2019t we heard more about the fact that, for example, the sheep herd was almost 58 million in 1990, reduced to 26 million by 2020, so there\u2019s been a huge reduction in the sheep herd in New Zealand. Why haven\u2019t we heard more about the unique pastoral farming system in New Zealand, which is quite different from most other places in the world? We have a unique system in New Zealand. We have a, effectively, free-range farming system that most other places in the world can\u2019t replicate. Why aren\u2019t we telling this story more strongly to the world\u2014the unique value that we have; the unique proposition that we make?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll just note that people want food, and, yes, you need to listen to what the consumers want, but take eggs, for example. I went to the local supermarket with my youngest daughter. She wanted to make a cake for Mother\u2019s Day. You couldn\u2019t buy eggs. I mean, people want to be able to buy food. So how are we protecting our food producers, making sure that they can continue producing food for this country and for the world? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EAnd I\u2019ll just note the point that there have been more than 20 changes to legislation, regulation, and all new rules since Labour came into power in 2017. I talk to farmers regularly who have to spend at least two days a week in the home office, working on these compliance regulations that they have to do, rather than being out there farming. We need them out there farming and getting their goods out to the world. So why has there not been more focus on the integration required to bring this together so we can actually focus on good environmental regulations that can ensure our food producers can do well and get their food out to the world?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EAnd I\u2019ll just note one example, the significant natural areas (SNAs): they were so broadly defined that farmers faced the risk of being shut down. In 2021, a third of the Far North district\u2014250,000 hectares\u2014was tentatively declared an SNA, including 100 percent of some properties. I mean, we\u2019re getting all these signals coming from the Government that aren\u2019t well thought through. Why hasn\u2019t there been more thinking at the Cabinet level to actually get a good signal out to our farmers, saying, \u201CWe recognise that you\u2019re the most carbon-efficient in the world; we\u2019re going to help you meet these environmental regulation outcomes that we want to achieve and produce food for the world and food for our country.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00228bacb558d0d5460ca7ca5527bb8250e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228bacb558d0d5460ca7ca5527bb8250e9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The honourable Minister\u2014three minutes 56 remaining.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00220c8f7e553ef6417487c86fda8f3e3ae4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c8f7e553ef6417487c86fda8f3e3ae4\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Look, thank you, some very good questions in there, I\u2019ll try and whip through them. The story? Perhaps the member Joseph Mooney doesn\u2019t come to enough of my speeches\u2014and I repeat them within New Zealand and overseas. Believe me, what you were referring to is something we should be proud of and we should be shouting it from the rooftops. And I do\u2014I can promise you that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ECan I just come back to\u2014actually, Joseph Mooney\u2019s a bit too young to remember, but, actually, we had 70 million sheep in the 1980s, and it\u2019s now down to 26 million. We\u2019re producing the same amount of meat and the same amount of wool; it\u2019s just that the wool\u2019s worth nothing, which is a tragedy, but I won\u2019t go on to that for the moment. He said we have a challenging 12 months ahead. I\u2019d suggest, actually\u2014and the banks are saying as well, the economists\u2014the 12 months ahead look a lot better than the 12 months we\u2019ve just been through, because we\u2019ve been through a period of excessive global inflation. The prices on most of the core inputs into farming are actually coming back, which is great. As I said right early on, it would have been hard to sustain that. And it\u2019s not $52 billion; it\u2019s $55 billion. You know, $3 billion\u2014nothing to sneeze about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EAnd so the point about significant natural areas (SNAs) that he refers to\u2014in fact, SNAs were identified in the 1991 National Party Resource Management Act piece of legislation. And so what happened is, actually, some councils got on and identified where they were, and some didn\u2019t. In fact, now there\u2019s been an obligation to get on and identify.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWhat has been seen as one of the biggest liabilities for the sheep and beef sector, because they\u2019ll talk of about 1.4 million hectares and indigenous bush, and some of it might be k\u0101nuka and m\u0101nuka\u2014actually, that\u2019s an asset, not a liability. And the farmers\u2014and there are many of them\u2014have turned it from a liability into an asset. Where they thought they had to go on and keep clearing it, as we did in the past, they\u2019re now leaving it to grow, to create m\u0101nuka honey, and to sequester. Now, we\u2019re working through, and some\u2014depending on when it was cleared, pre- or post-1990\u2014of that is generating significant carbon credits for those farmers that are letting it grow back. And that will be the opportunities for sheep and beef farmers into the future. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u00228b454159b7334ec69ea0e02bc54e5523\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b454159b7334ec69ea0e02bc54e5523\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Minister, you and I are pretty collegial most of the time, but I\u2019m still trying to reconcile something to do with the national herd size. Go back to 2006, Minister, when you know that we had peak numbers in terms of the animals in the animal ruminant sector. Do you reconcile today, Minister, given that methane is a short-lived gas, we\u2019ve got to have an honest conversation about what role methane has in terms of our emissions profile, what its actual net warming addition is? Sir, do you agree, yes or no, today, that in 2006 we had our peak national animal ruminant herd numbers? We\u2019ve subsequently fallen since then. That\u2019s the first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EOn the basis of your answer on that, what interventions are currently commercially available today to my people in the rural sector, i.e., dairy farmers, those in the beef sector, or the sheep meat sector, that we could use as interventions that will not actually have this\u2014it\u2019s nothing more than an arbitrary tax, and you know that I\u2019m talking about He Waka Eke Noa. What interventions are commercially available, excluding the development of genetic material, which we know will take arguably six to eight years to be in the mean average herd or flock in New Zealand? Can you please, for the sake of this House and anyone listening, answer those very important questions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00226333d89d231e4c378928e7165a13cfea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226333d89d231e4c378928e7165a13cfea\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Can I say plantain has been acknowledged as reducing nitrates and nitrous oxide; EcoPond, which has been developed internationally and used by one of our major fertiliser companies to reduce the methane emissions from effluent ponds across the country; and selection\u2014CRV, and I know the Livestock Improvement Corporation, too, are identifying sires that have lower emissions. Those are three available now, and there\u2019s work going on on bolus and other issues\u2014as I say, the Dutch technology, which claims a huge reduction in methane from animals that ingest this on a regular basis, and you can do that in an internal farming system. We haven\u2019t worked out how to do it in a pastoral system; that\u2019s why there\u2019s more work needed. So there are some opportunities. They incrementally add up to and, I\u2019m sure, will contribute to the 10 percent reduction target that we have by 2030, and that\u2019s been acknowledged. In Ireland, they\u2019ve targeted a 30 percent reduction in emissions from farm systems by 2030; we\u2019ve set a 10 percent reduction in methane.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ECan I just come back to the point around peak animals and methane; you see, we had a lot more animals in 2006, and now, than we had in 1900 or 1850. Global warming hasn\u2019t happened overnight, and so what we\u2019ve seen in the Hawke\u2019s Bay, in my simple kind of physics, is that we\u2019ve had a warming of the sea and we have more moisture go up into the atmosphere, and it\u2019s coming down. Atmospheric rivers: not something I had ever, ever heard\u2014I lived by the Buller River, not an atmospheric river, but now the Buller\u2019s more threatened by atmospheric rivers than it is the Kawatiri, because of the warming and the effect that more moisture goes up and has to come down. That\u2019s the reality we face.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022 data-id=\u0022563e9650305c4b14b1fb951b62b17bd2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022563e9650305c4b14b1fb951b62b17bd2\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. To the Minister: the horticulture sector is quite disappointed about the lack of response to Cyclone Gabrielle, and the project coordination group report recently noted that between $650 million and $960 million would need to be injected around clean-up, replanting, income continuity, financing arrangements, and a whole lot of stuff. What further steps, if any, will this Government take to help those growers impacted by Cyclone Gabrielle? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022c173d3c71e2c4042a6fa084ed82120a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c173d3c71e2c4042a6fa084ed82120a2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, the Minister\u2019s time has\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223830457934c24e1eb9421dd8ac91ca4c\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: He won\u2019t let me answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022395d4835b102495990deead80c0dae9c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister needs to seek leave to answer that question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u002227ed6af95a854d6ca823020e3008afe1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227ed6af95a854d6ca823020e3008afe1\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Very quickly, Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022507a4a6390ec478ba4ad99dc69dca4a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022507a4a6390ec478ba4ad99dc69dca4a0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry, but the time for this debate has expired. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThe question is that the report of the Finance and Expenditure Committee on the annual financial statements of the Government for the 2021-22 financial year be noted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b501e1c97ad643a28742e8a78d2fb6f2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the reports of the committees on annual reviews be noted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000360\u0022\u003EReports of the committees on annual reviews noted.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022164547f13f77450f866da96ed6aedb1c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clauses 1 to 9 and Schedules 1 to 5 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 9 and Schedules 1 to 5 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000361\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000362\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00222e3e110f0ee74d9188e17725f5935688\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e3e110f0ee74d9188e17725f5935688\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, the committee has considered the Appropriation (2021/22 Confirmation and Validation) Bill and reports it without amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223ae7cf4541ba4eb98ce6a2bdbe831f29\u0022\u003EAppropriation (2021/22 Confirmation and Validation) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228906e61bd56c42cdae2fd7b7a6e76f30\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea445b1ada6d4394be46eae2731ebc75\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea445b1ada6d4394be46eae2731ebc75\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Minister of Customs)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Finance: I move, That the Appropriation (2021/22 Confirmation and Validation) Bill be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022877d123296c248eb91f095ade10b58d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022877d123296c248eb91f095ade10b58d3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022456a001fc9884563a22095658ebab4f4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Appropriation (2021/22 Confirmation and Validation) Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000370\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002270a84c73f6984e2b93dc37d309fc206e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270a84c73f6984e2b93dc37d309fc206e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Customs and Excise (Arrival Information) Amendment Bill, the Self-contained Motor Vehicles Legislation Bill, the Accident Compensation (Access Reporting and Other Matters) Amendment Bill, and the Grocery Industry Competition Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ecf215b07bf44df09dd53e8c168c7947\u0022\u003EHouse in Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ac3b3ab062bd479caddbb8e66349d6e5\u0022\u003EHouse in Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff03411b6afd44968eea9711b3e214ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff03411b6afd44968eea9711b3e214ef\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Customs and Excise (Arrival Information) Amendment Bill, the Self-contained Motor Vehicles Legislation Bill, and the Accident Compensation (Access Reporting and Other Matters) Amendment Bill, as well as the Grocery Industry Competition Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226e241662e4d64f6e9c5e55ecae1c4eae\u0022\u003ECustoms and Excise (Arrival Information) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002229b6af43bee7488e87514c2fdb6b510a\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002254c3db353412464d989d0df7feb2c45f\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments about requirement to provide information\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022cda54822d3b043c9a266958adf2f09db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cda54822d3b043c9a266958adf2f09db\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come first to the Customs and Excise (Arrival Information) Amendment Bill. We begin with debate on Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u00223db67e0e392547b0bffaf99a585df503\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223db67e0e392547b0bffaf99a585df503\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and may I, as others have done, in taking this first opportunity to speak, acknowledge the terrible loss of life here in Wellington overnight, and acknowledge, in particular, our fire crews and others for how they\u2019ve handled everything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESecondly, if I might, I acknowledge the new Minister of Customs. I\u2019ve said in the House a few times that there\u2019s nothing more exciting than a customs bill, and secondly there\u2019s nothing more exciting than a new Minister of Customs! So welcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EA couple of questions from me, because, first and foremost, as the Minister in the chair knows, National is supporting this bill. We, by and large, see this as positive. But if we\u2019re dealing with Part 1\u2014and I\u2019ve got a few questions; about three of four, if that\u2019s all right, and I\u2019ll just go through one at time. I\u2019m looking at new section 28A(2), inserted by clause 4\u2014this is the information that\u2019s going to be provided\u2014and it says here \u201Cin the way prescribed by the chief executive\u2019s rules\u201D. Your officials will know that we have debated this, discussed this, long and at length\u2014maybe add \u201Cboring\u2014in terms of what the chief executive can or cannot prescribe. I\u2019d just like the Minister here in this committee stage to give me and the committee some confidence\u2014and this is no disrespect to the chief executive of Customs or the Ministry for Primary Industries or any other agencies, but to be abundantly clear that there are, in effect, some guidelines, some boundaries around what the chief executive can or cannot ask. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThe concern, particularly for any members of the public listening, is that while we move from this paper copy arrival card\u2014we\u2019re all familiar with the little blue piece of paper we fill out; we\u2019re moving on to a digital platform\u2014there were some concerns coming out of the select committee\u2014although, again, I want to say that they were addressed\u2014that the chief executive of Customs, in particular, could put in a whole lot of other questions that we might not deem appropriate to this debate, as the Minister will know, of whether we should be prescribing this quite explicitly in the legislation. We were told clearly there was not a need for it, on the basis that the prescription by the chief executive is already within some sort of framework. So I wonder, as the first question, whether the Minister would be prepared to answer that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022255cb1bbc7ac4e1199b048ffdf3537d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022255cb1bbc7ac4e1199b048ffdf3537d6\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for all provisions to be taken as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002284686bc642494792b7109840253b5ee4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284686bc642494792b7109840253b5ee4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is no objection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228fe52aef508844fa8688b827ee668225\u0022\u003EParts 1 and 2, the Schedule, and clauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022616db90444384463a741c41728ceddd1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022616db90444384463a741c41728ceddd1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Parts 1 and 2, Schedule 1, and clauses 1 to 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022 data-id=\u00226288e70332c84b26a9a2592b131eb172\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226288e70332c84b26a9a2592b131eb172\u0022\u003EDr JAMES McDOWALL (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Just a couple of issues to begin with\u2014or questions, I should say, to the Minister. The first is around a new digitised system, which is something I spoke about at a previous reading. So if the form is filled out online in advance\u2014and I guess there\u2019s also another sub-question there: is the actual person who\u2019s travelling filling out the form, and what is the enforcement around that? But if a form is submitted and the declaration is true at that given time but then circumstances do change and the traveller is now travelling to New Zealand and suddenly they do have amendments that they wish to make, how will that be treated? So how will the enforcement, sort of, approach to that be? How much leeway can be given, or is it possible to make those changes? And how would that work, or would they just rely on a manual card at that point and have to volunteer to go down that route?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3d10bfeb5654af28f2cbfeb58ebbc87\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3d10bfeb5654af28f2cbfeb58ebbc87\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll keep listing through a few questions. Obviously, the Minister\u2019s taking a number at a time and will then respond, which is great. The second one\u2014which has somewhat been described by my colleague who\u2019s just taken his seat\u2014in effect, is: is the Minister happy that this arrival card being filled out online is going to be done at the right time? The basic premise being there that\u2014we\u2019ve got the irony; again, discussed\u2014it\u2019s an arrival card which we\u2019re filling out before we arrive. At the moment, I fill out the little blue piece of paper about an hour before I land. Strictly speaking, we could be doing this, Minister\u2014well, it would be good for you to elucidate to the committee whether it\u2019s 24 hours or 48 hours before. So it\u2019s picking up on the previous question. We\u2019re filling out an arrival card not at the moment of arrival but well before arrival, and does the bill\u2014again, I do know the answers to this, I must admit, but it\u2019s always good to have it on record in Hansard\u2014is she confident that we\u2019ll be capturing the right information? And to echo the previous person, the honourable member: how does change get effected if all of a sudden I find I am bringing stuff into the country that I was not necessarily anticipating?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThe third question from myself relates to section 28B\u2014in clause 4\u2014which deal with offences. Does the Minister believe that $1,000 is the appropriate level, and\u2014probably a question, through her, to her officials\u2014does this align with other fines that we have? From vague memory\u2014not that I\u2019ve attempted to bring oranges, apples, and bananas into the country\u2014I think we get hit with $400 or something. Do the fines align? And I\u2019d prefer that we just hear that rather than I have to go and experiment and find myself paying a lot of money that I can\u2019t justify to my wife. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EThen we\u2019re moving across to more general questions around memorandums of understanding. So we\u2019ve talked about filling out the cards, and we\u2019ve talked about whether or not the chief executive can\u2014well, how much leeway she or he has to write questions. It\u2019s also whether she feels that this law assures that the data is going to be sufficiently protected. We know there\u2019s a number of memorandums of understanding between the likes of Customs and other departments\u2014IRD being a good case in point. Is she confident that this bill will not impact on those memoranda and, secondly, that, yeah, it\u2019s not going to impact on the use of those? And I think that\u2019s where I\u2019ll leave it for now, if I might.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u0022c3b8af54d6744160b8f123d575dfa51a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c3b8af54d6744160b8f123d575dfa51a\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Minister of Customs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the members for your questions. Firstly, the in terms of the question raised by Mr O\u2019Connor around the chief executive rules, I am confident in those rules. They are secondary legislation, which means that they are subject to parliamentary scrutiny and can be disallowed, and they do allow for a more timely manner for things to be changed. For example, if we have a sudden product that is disallowed or becomes an illegal substance, he or she has the ability to make those changes necessary through a means that is quite scrutinised. It can be done in a more timely manner than should it be taken as legislation through the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EPeople who change their information or want to bring more additional things into the country than they anticipated when they filled out their online form before leaving the country they are leaving from do have the ability to make changes when they arrive in the country, and as long as they do so, they will be fine. The $1,000 and $400 penalties align with other legislation, and so there is no issue there. And\u2014can you remind me of the customs question that you had sorry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u00223af42498fd214dd8b395f1c4a865e894\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223af42498fd214dd8b395f1c4a865e894\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E Sorry, I\u2019m not sure if it\u2019s appropriate protocol if I jump back up?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6b60023751b4409b76c77c84ba26be6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: I call on Simon O\u2019Connor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc197f294a6a4398b8532173e92ded31\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: It was more, is the Minister confident that this amendment bill is not going to affect the memorandum of understanding that Customs has with the likes of IRD and the Ministry of Social Development?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u00227fdc70fa6dcf462dbcc905e7791aa65e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227fdc70fa6dcf462dbcc905e7791aa65e\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Minister of Customs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. That is correct and I am confident in that. Customs, as the member knows, has memorandums of understanding that other agencies can obtain information from Customs. It\u2019s not a free-for-all; Customs cannot widely just go and share information about people. It must be requested of Customs in order to be shared.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022305ba698885c4eba817b2574a3c78364\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022305ba698885c4eba817b2574a3c78364\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Just a brief question from me, if I may, following up on the line of discussion between the Minister and my colleague and friend Simon O\u2019Connor. First, though, I begin by congratulating the Minister on her elevation to the ministry. She was already part of the executive, of course, being a Parliamentary Under-Secretary, but she\u2019s been elevated to her new role and I congratulate her for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIn relation to the data sharing, I think it\u2019s helpful that we\u2019ve got on record the Minister\u2019s intention, as aligned, I think, pretty well with the select committee report understanding about those data-sharing agreements not being compromised or affected in any kind of way. But my question is in relation to how long that data would need to be held, and it might be that you\u2019re not able to answer the question now. I say that not to put you on the spot, but if I can just express a hope\u2014and the Minister may wish to respond\u2014that data isn\u2019t held for this purpose any longer than is necessary, because, of course, the purpose of the exercise is to make it easier to collect data, easier to hold data, and easier to share data. There are good reasons for that, and it sounds to me as though members across the committee are on board with the idea that we want to make life easier for those agencies, particularly the New Zealand Customs Service. But the flipside, of course, is that the easier it is to hold and share information, the more easily it can be hacked or otherwise obtained by those who have no right to it and might have malicious intent either in the way they would use the data or by way of holding the New Zealand Government or the individuals to ransom. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo I seek the assurance, I suppose, if anything, that the Minister would agree that the data should not only be collected for the right purpose and shared for the right purpose but also held as long as necessary but for no longer. I think, you know, if we\u2019re going to require by force of law that people provide information\u2014as, to be fair, was already the case, I\u2019m not saying that\u2019s a new element of the law; it\u2019s just we\u2019re doing it in a different way\u2014then I think we owe those citizens and visitors the responsibility to retain that only to the extent that we actually need for these purposes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u002230c5330b6c01488e97e8621883adf9e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002230c5330b6c01488e97e8621883adf9e9\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Minister of Customs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the question. The information can only be held for as long as the lawful purpose remains, and the Act, however, only permits biometric information to be held for three years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3efdda54beb4da293b027662ed9ad03\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3efdda54beb4da293b027662ed9ad03\u0022\u003EDr JAMES McDOWALL (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just a few more questions following on from the same line of questioning. It\u2019s regarding Simon O\u2019Connor\u2019s query around $1,000 and whether that\u2019s appropriate and will work as intended. If we recall, as a House, we discussed a member\u2019s bill from the Hon Jacqui Dean not so long ago where the advice from officials was that historically, when the fines were increased, it didn\u2019t actually dissuade people\u2014that the impact of that was not so meaningful. So I just want some clarity here, because it kind of feels like we\u2019ve gone from, in the case of the Hon Jacqui Dean\u2019s bill, saying that that increase in fine wouldn\u2019t result in better outcomes and we shouldn\u2019t do it to suddenly, in this bill, saying that, actually, that\u2019s the right thing to do. So it\u2019s just a little bit of a contradiction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003EIn addition to that, it\u2019s obviously not a bad thing with the digitisation that changes can be made in a more timely manner, in the words of the Minister\u2014perfectly sensible\u2014but I wonder if the Minister\u2019s received any advice as to how often requirements or the questions on the form may actually change, like the rules around alcohol and other regulations, because we\u2019re kind of moving from a very slow, prolonged process now to, suddenly, things can be done kind of on the fly\u2014for perfectly legitimate reasons, I\u2019m sure. But going from one mode of slowness to suddenly very agile\u2014has there been any advice about how often we actually might get changes? That could be quite confusing for travellers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022 data-id=\u0022e75e648a0d7146c2ad4787c1120d63b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e75e648a0d7146c2ad4787c1120d63b8\u0022\u003ESIMON O\u2019CONNOR (National\u2014T\u0101maki):\u003C/span\u003E My last question, just to help signal that. It\u2019s to do with new Part 6 being inserted into Schedule 1. The Minister will know, long and short, those vessels\u2014sorry, ships; I better get that right\u2014that are under the control of our defence forces, and ships operated by the international cruise business are being pushed out to October, which is a different start date to everyone else. That\u2019s my understanding\u2014if we can quickly check that. It\u2019s really asking, again\u2014yeah that\u2019s right. So the Act itself is coming into force on 21 June, which is one of the reasons why we\u2019re moving at speed. But we\u2019re pushing out until the end of October this legislation applying to His Majesty\u2019s ships in the Royal New Zealand Navy and also those ships on international cruise business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003EOnce again, for the sake of the committee, I think I know\u2014I do know\u2014the answer, but I think it\u2019s useful to have it on record. So if the Minister could explain why there is a little bit of delay in what her expectations are, particularly with international cruise ships or cruise business, how this is going to manifest, particularly for those who have not filled out that cards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s the second question. First, why delay by a couple of months, and, second, are we expecting, effectively, mobile computers, laptops, or machines to be at cruise terminals for those people who have not, for whatever reason, filled out their declarations while in transit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3577b385af5449da40e30d359578da5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3577b385af5449da40e30d359578da5\u0022\u003EDr JAMES McDOWALL (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Last one, I promise! I just wondered about the concern\u2014and thank you for your answer, Minister\u2014around people who have changing circumstances; so they filled out their thing previously and now they\u2019re, presumably, on the plane or at the airport. Is the Minister anticipating teething issues, in the sense that you come to the airport, you\u2019ve got your goods to declare or no goods to declare\u2014you know, are we suddenly going to have a third queue of people who are saying, \u201CWell, now I do. I\u2019ve changed my mind or changed my circumstances.\u201D? Do we anticipate this to be, kind of, a bit of a rush of confusion? And will there be a sort of allowance, an introductory period, where enforcement might be on the more gentle side?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u0022aef8b2410f20414fa2c5384e224d7ff7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aef8b2410f20414fa2c5384e224d7ff7\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Minister of Customs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. In response to that member\u2019s questions, you\u2019ll be aware that there have been trials that have been carried out and they\u2019ve been very successful, so I don\u2019t anticipate teething issues at this stage. There are more trials planned as well, though, to ensure that any teething issues that may crop up are ironed out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EAs far as the cruise ships and what have you, the question from the Hon Simon O\u2019Connor, he will be aware that there is just a bit more time needed to work with cruise ships and the Defence Force on the implementation of the arrival card at this stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EParts 1 and 2, the Schedule, and clauses 1 to 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225565e1cf843c426fa06af5170d09d4f5\u0022\u003ESelf-contained Motor Vehicles Legislation Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022897789f08771453eb5e86a06ad055aea\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002208076cc81ce54aec8e175abcff049ef0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208076cc81ce54aec8e175abcff049ef0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to the Self-contained Motor Vehicles Legislation Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u0022a157105bd63743ba9c48dcc23e1ecc52\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a157105bd63743ba9c48dcc23e1ecc52\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Chair. I seek leave for all provisions to be taken as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed41e4bc1ce14b188796511df0573e1d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed41e4bc1ce14b188796511df0573e1d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is no objection. The question is that Parts 1 to 3, the Schedule, and clauses 1 and 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d727153f20f944a48a4cb858db787f8d\u0022\u003EParts 1 to 3, the Schedule, and clauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u002224e381a0703d432781c131464c4637a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224e381a0703d432781c131464c4637a1\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Minister of Tourism):\u003C/span\u003E Just a slight recap, and also to speak to a Supplementary Order Paper that will be delivered in my name. Freedom camping is important to Aotearoa New Zealand, both for our people and our manuhiri. However, change is needed, and it\u2019s become loud and clear from communities that the freedom camping system is no longer sustainable. We must practise kaitiakitanga by taking better care of our people and our whenua. A particular concern is those who freedom camp in vehicles that do not contain fixed toilets and are disposing of human waste inappropriately. This pollutes our environment and angers our communities. The cost to clean this up after irresponsible freedom campers has, historically, fallen on the environment and our communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ELocal ratepayers, taxpayers, and councils have asked for change and the Government has responded. The Government reforms address concerns by requiring fixed toilets in certified self-contained vehicles, ensuring that vehicle certification is consistent and high quality, and by giving local government more tools to address issues in their region. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EPart 1 deals with the new national rule requiring that vehicle-based freedom campers use a certified self-contained vehicle when they stay on council land, unless the council designates the site as suitable for non - self-contained vehicles. The new rule is key in enabling local authorities to better manage freedom camping in their area and reduce pressure on public infrastructure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe bill extends the Freedom Camping Act 2011 to include land managed by Waka Kotahi and Land Information New Zealand (LINZ), as freedom camping issues have occurred on both LINZ and Waka Kotahi land. Extending the Act in this way will provide Waka Kotahi and LINZ with additional management tools through the ability to prescribe restrictions on freedom camping as well as access to the offences and penalties regime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe bill introduces a broader range of infringement offences to deter poor behaviour such as freedom camping in breach of the new national rule, not displaying a warrant card, or displaying an altered or fraudulent warrant card. It also enables infringement notices to be emailed to individuals who have committed an offence, to speed up the process and increase collection rates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe bill provides for a two-year transition process to enable the gradual implementation of the regulatory regime. The transition period is essential for enabling new certification authorities to get approval from the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Board (PGDB) and develop their services; vehicle inspections and certification to be staggered to minimise wait times for the public, and the public to be educated and informed about the new rules and requirements. I have also introduced a Supplementary Order Paper that introduces the ability to extend the transition period by up to 24 months by Order in Council if necessary. This amendment will enable some flexibility if there is insufficient capacity in the system during the original two-year transition period, while still enabling the reforms to be progressed if there is adequate capacity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe policy objective of the bill is for those experiencing homelessness not to be penalised\u2014and I want to repeat: not to be penalised\u2014under the freedom camping rules. The Supplementary Order Paper adds a legislative exemption to protect those experiencing homelessness from receiving infringement for freedom camping offences. The proposed exemption will cover people residing in New Zealand who are staying in a motor vehicle or tent because they are unable to live in appropriate residential accommodation. This will encompass the broad range of circumstances that may lead to someone experiencing homelessness. This exemption will protect the interests and welfare of this vulnerable group, and the bill will also mandate a review of the impact of the reforms on those experiencing homelessness. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EPart 2 of the bill amends the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Act 2006 to establish the PGBD as a new regulator for the certification of self-contained vehicles. The primary purpose of the system is to ensure the sanitary plumbing requirements have been met for people to be self-contained when camping in a vehicle. The bill will require vehicles to have a fixed toilet to be certified as self-contained. This will build public confidence that if the vehicle is certified, it is equipped with a toilet that is more likely to be used than a portable toilet, and that the toilet has not been removed from the vehicle. This will contribute to reducing the costs borne by communities and the environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EIn my engagement with both councils and communities, as I\u2019ve travelled the country, it\u2019s become quite clear that we want to take our responsibilities of kaitiakitanga seriously, and what we also want to do is make sure that those who do visit pristine sites in this country, like lakesides, beachsides, and important significant sites around this country can do so without seeing the kind of human waste that we\u2019re seeing in places like rest stops and on beaches and by lakes. I look forward to the engagement on this bill in the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae6ed3f5fc504417a9613ff3cd86357d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae6ed3f5fc504417a9613ff3cd86357d\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Thank you for this opportunity to ask the Minister of Tourism some questions about this bill. So, Minister, the issue was raised previously, and again in the first reading, that the requirement to have a fixed toilet will, effectively, punish the 70,000 responsible Kiwis who have suitable portable toilets in their vehicles and use them, leading to the somewhat odd situation of a camper with a fixed toilet, who doesn\u2019t use it, not breaking the law, but a camper who has a non-fixed toilet and uses it will be fined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EI have had a look through Supplementary Order Paper 351, and I cannot see anything that addresses that issue. I wonder why that has not been addressed by the Minister, because I cannot see a rational reason for punishing 70,000 responsible Kiwis who have suitable portable toilets and use them. Obviously, we want to focus on those who don\u2019t use them, and stop them from littering our roadsides or laybys, etc. But I can\u2019t see any good reason for punishing 70,000 Kiwis who do use their portable toilets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EJust a corollary to that, I wonder whether the Minister has taken any advice on how many travellers are expected for the FIFA Women\u2019s World Cup coming up on 20 July to 20 August, jointly hosted by Australia and New Zealand. I note that last time we had a major event in New Zealand, we did have some changes around these laws to reflect the fact that we had probably a lot more travellers and visitors to our country, which is a great thing, I would suggest, and I\u2019m sure the Minister would agree with that, and we want them to have a great experience here in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThere is a third point which I might just touch on here, just looking at this Supplementary Order Paper. I see the intention not to penalise people who are freedom camping because they cannot find appropriate residential accommodation. The way this definition is phrased, it says \u201Ca person is not freedom camping if the person\u2014(a) is a person other than a person who is in New Zealand on the basis of a visitor visa (within the meaning of the immigration instructions)\u201D. Is this intended to apply only to New Zealand residents and citizens who are unable to find appropriate residential accommodation, or does it include people who are on working visas in New Zealand who are unable to find appropriate residential accommodation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u00226ed5f39b543249feafd9ea3be0f4e632\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ed5f39b543249feafd9ea3be0f4e632\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Minister of Tourism):\u003C/span\u003E Can I thank the member for his questions, and I\u2019ll start with the final question. The reason why we\u2019ve made it rather specific\u2014and that member will know that, for example, in places like Queenstown, in his own electorate, there are many on working visas\u2014is that it was considered that the bill in its old state would continue to punish those people who are struggling to find accommodation, and we want to make sure that this bill clearly is designed, along with its policy intent, to make sure that it does not discriminate against or penalise those who, for one reason or other, or multiple reasons\u2014and they\u2019re often complex reasons, as many of the MPs in this Chamber will know as they work with those who find themselves homeless\u2014find themselves in the situations that they find themselves in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EIt also, of course, makes it clearer to the council, because it\u2019s a requirement of the council to make sure that they\u2019re able to administer this particular bill, this particular legislation, so the impetus is put on them, and there\u2019s also an area there for discretion for them so that they are able to make sure that, once again, those who do find themselves homeless for whatever reason aren\u2019t penalised unnecessarily.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ETo the second part, with respect to the member\u2019s comments about FIFA, yes, I\u2019m sure the entire country is looking forward to welcoming visitors here to this country. Of course, the encouragement from all of us is to get around and to get to as many games as possible, but just to make sure that our visitors have a good visit here to New Zealand. While the focus is on the games, we know many of them are going to travel around the country. We know that they\u2019re going to visit key places and significant sites around the country. This, in particular, is intended to make sure that we can have a regime that will continue to support the way that visitors come into this country. But I will note, though\u2014and the member will know this\u2014that once the legislation is passed, there will be a regime afterwards to make sure that those who do actually responsibly have self-contained vehicles will be able to go through the registration process in order to be able to use their vehicle and go travel the country as they see fit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ESo that brings me to the first question that the member asked. He quoted a number of numbers about those who were talking about using a portable toilet. Requiring a fixed toilet will continue to encourage increased usage and help reduce the improper disposal of waste. What we mean by that is: with a portable toilet, it undermines a system, and any place around the country, it can be taken out and disposed of\u2014that\u2019s as good as doing the act right there, which is the kind of behaviour that we\u2019re trying to dispel. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWhat I also want to say, though, is an acknowledgment to all of those who are embracing these changes, who are making sure that their current vehicles that do have fixed toilets will come under the regime to be certified, to make sure that they are the right vehicles to be going places, but also an acknowledgment of those like the councils, the Department of Conservation, who acknowledge that camping in this country is still one of those things that our families and our young people and our travellers look forward to. So there are numerous sites, hundreds of sites around the entire country where people can still go along, still pitch a tent, and still do it within the parameters of this particular piece of legislation. That\u2019s important to remind ourselves, because, as I said, it\u2019s one of those almost rites of passage for Kiwi families, in particular, but also for visitors who come here, who like to pitch a tent, but we want to make sure that they do it in places that have the proper facilities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI\u2019m going to retell a story. Just recently, I went to Rotorua to speak on my other portfolio of forestry, and on the way back I stopped at the many rest areas along the way that look over Lake Karapiro , which is a beautiful view, if anybody\u2019s interested. I saw two fixed-toilet campervans there and got to speak to the people there. They didn\u2019t have a problem with what we were proposing. As I returned to my car, I noticed human faeces and toilet paper at the rest stop. It\u2019s this kind of behaviour that I\u2019m sure every Kiwi in the country will look to expelling out of what we see on our roads, around our beautiful, serene nature places around this country, to make sure that not only as an international visitor but those domestic who decide to go and visit other parts of the country can do so without seeing the kind of human waste that I noticed on the side of the road at a rest stop at one of the most beautiful places in the country, overlooking Lake Karapiro.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf20c53214c143e5aae61c38efde6322\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf20c53214c143e5aae61c38efde6322\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (National\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you. Minister, thank you for that. And I want to debate that and to talk more about that, and I thank you for engaging on it. I must say, your approach when you became Minister for this portfolio has been refreshing because, indeed, the last Minister of Tourism actually really got to the point where he was saying to submitters and others that they were wrong and his officials were right and he wasn\u2019t willing to engage in this anymore. And he could well be correct in that, but the job of this House and the committee here, during the committee stage, is to exhaustively look at these issues so at the very least members of the public who will be affected by this legislation\u2014have costs placed upon them or their ability to do things that previously were lawful are no longer\u2014at least understands why Parliament is making that decision. So I want to thank the Minister for constructively engaging.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003ESome of the things that he said, I agree with completely, but, Minister, I\u2019m not sure the legislation will make the changes that you intend or hope to. So the example you gave near Rotorua where somebody has defecated in public, of course that should not happen, but the problem with this legislation is it doesn\u2019t actually stop that because the people that you mentioned that had a fixed facility in their campervan, in camping there under the new regime where certified, they are meeting the requirement of the law, but the law does not say they have to use that. So they could climb over their campervan and they could defecate, actually, on the side of the campervan and they\u2019re still certified because it\u2019s fixed\u2014that toilet in their campervan\u2014but the law doesn\u2019t say they have to use it; it just says it has to be fixed. Conversely, someone else could drive up and park beside you, Minister, in a campervan with a portable toilet, and they couldn\u2019t be certified, and they use that portable toilet inside their campervan, and ultimately they are breaking the law. And that is where the challenge or the problem is with the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThe intent is something that we accept. We have no problem with the intent. But I\u2019ve got to say that some of the examples that were given to us\u2014they weren\u2019t the officials\u2019 examples but the things the officials were being given to present to the committee, so the officials were doing a good job\u2014actually didn\u2019t lead us to the point of believing that, actually, all the solutions that were needed had been found or explored or put into legislation to ensure that people are responsible when they camp and they freedom camp and that, actually, imposing restrictions upon some Kiwis who have acted responsibly and continued to would be made illegal and it would impact upon the things that they were doing. You gave the example of how for New Zealanders all over the country, it\u2019s a rite of passage and they go and camp in their tents. Well, of course, the legislation allows them to camp in a tent and not to have a toilet and, I suppose, do whatever they want with their business anywhere, so it doesn\u2019t impact upon somebody who has a tent if they are travelling around the country, hitchhiking, and so on. It doesn\u2019t deal with that because you can\u2019t certify a tent. I suppose you couldn\u2019t have a fixed toilet in the tent but you could have a portable one. The point is it doesn\u2019t deal with any of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EOur spokesman has brought forward a submission, and in the committee we made the case because, probably, of all the issues that were raised, the one that was the most contentious and raised the most concern from submitters\u2014law-abiding Kiwis who just want to go and camp and they want to meet their obligations, they don\u2019t want to ruin the environment, they\u2019re responsible people\u2014was the great cost and imposition placed upon them if they had to have a fixed toilet. So there\u2019s a Supplementary Order Paper that\u2019s been tabled that actually will deal with this. It says, actually, that you can use a non-fixed toilet, but it has to be described in regulation. The previous Minister said, \u201CWell, people using buckets with lids\u2014nobody believes that is a portable toilet.\u201D But, actually, it should be around changing behaviour. And for the officials to say they\u2019ve done research that merely says if somebody has a fixed toilet, they\u2019re more likely to use it than if it\u2019s a non-fixed toilet, actually I\u2019m not convinced by it, because it means we probably just haven\u2019t got those regulations right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EWe also didn\u2019t hear clearly from any submitter or any evidence or anything that says that people are less likely to take the responsibility to dispose of effluent that\u2019s stored in a portable toilet less seriously than somebody with a fixed toilet. I guess there will be examples of that where people don\u2019t do what they should\u2014they\u2019re not responsible. We should penalise and criminalise that, not criminalise somebody who has a portable toilet in their campervan, they use it, they dispose of it in a place that is identified for its disposal, but they\u2019re breaking the law if they freedom camp because they can\u2019t be certified. It\u2019s a very small change that says, actually, if you are responsible and you have a portable toilet and you use it, you will be allowed to be certified and freedom camp. If you don\u2019t use it, you would break the law, just as if you\u2019re not using a fixed one you would break the law. It would mean tens of thousands of Kiwis are not inconvenienced and we could continue to focus on where the problem is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022 data-id=\u00225d285c331f1a4bf5b66e58504ab0ce99\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d285c331f1a4bf5b66e58504ab0ce99\u0022\u003EDr JAMES McDOWALL (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just in reference to the Supplementary Order Paper, which is fairly significant, and I\u2019m thinking about the backdrop to this issue, and very commonly we saw in the media issues of tourists behaving badly. Remember the French tourists who were a good case study. In addition to the media coverage, we had the previous Minister, Stuart Nash, talk a lot about this, particularly these immigration changes in section 5(2A)(a), in clause 6, which now clarify that a person is not freedom camping if they\u2019re on a visitor visa. I think it\u2019s not quite in those words, but I think that\u2019s what it\u2019s trying to say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003EIf we sort of take a step back, doesn\u2019t this kind of undermine one of the big reasons for this bill in the first place? Because it does seem like a pretty reasonable carve out. And similar, or connected to that, a slightly different question: can the Minister then confirm that this does not apply to Australian visitors to New Zealand\u2014tourists who come here, because they don\u2019t get visitor visas; they get residency upon arrival. So there\u2019s a bit of discrepancy there. I\u2019d like to hear the Minister\u2019s feedback on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u002273f72c65c1264655813f8830039b4960\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273f72c65c1264655813f8830039b4960\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Minister of Tourism):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and can I thank the members for their questions. I acknowledge the work that the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee did in hearing a large number of submissions, and also those who submitted to me directly via email and other means to bring their particular matters to the fore. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThere are a couple of things here that I would like to highlight to the committee, and it is about the way that we try with this particular bill to deter bad behaviour. Members of the Opposition in particular will know that when it comes to something like this, if you want to deter them and if you want to deter bad behaviour, we want to make sure that there\u2019s a punishment that will deter that behaviour. What we\u2019ve done here is we\u2019ve looked towards making sure that there\u2019s a fit punishment for those who are caught breaking rules\u2014those who are caught doing the kinds of deeds that were described and already accepted in this House as rather deplorable and disgusting\u2014to make sure that that is the disincentive for people to do those kinds of things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI want to note too that what we know is that when it comes to camping, for example, I\u2019ve already mentioned that you can camp on campsites and you can camp at a number of Department of Conservation sites that are available to the public. As the bill makes clear, when it comes to private land, you can also go there and you can still feel free to camp there, as long as you\u2019ve got the permission, or if you own the land, then that\u2019s all fair and well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI myself, for example, when I head up to the Far North, to where my mother\u2019s family come from, we literally camp there, despite there being a house there. But there are facilities there. There are actual toilet and shower facilities, but we enjoy having our own space of a tent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe research shows that tent-based freedom camping makes up only 4 percent of freedom camping in this country, so we want to just make sure that some of the facts are out there. What we also know too is that in this country, 85 percent of the domestic vehicles have fixed or fitted toilets already, and I want to acknowledge those who do do these things responsibly, who do make sure that they act in a way that the community can continue to support tourism activities within their community, and that\u2019s absolutely fantastic. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EA couple of questions from the members continue to focus on portable toilet matter. What\u2019s clear is that fixed toilets are twice as likely to be used than a portable toilet. So if we\u2019re trying to change behaviour here, it is my opinion and the opinion of this Government that this particular bill will do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf4f76ccec6d421694aa15e3155bd19e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf4f76ccec6d421694aa15e3155bd19e\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (National\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E If the Minister was able to show us very, very clearly that people with portable toilets and campervans were the ones causing the problems, it would be easy; he would have unanimity in the Chamber, but I\u2019m sorry, Minister, I\u2019m not sure it\u2019s as straightforward as that. You gave the example, I suppose, of, you know, a case where people were camped near a house and there were facilities. There were other areas where people camp and somebody will bring in a portable toilet, a stand-up one\u2014you open the door and you go into it\u2014and they\u2019ll use that as well. Of course, in the case that it was a freedom camping area and somebody had put it there, the person that had a certified campervan with a fixed toilet in it would be allowed to camp there. If there was a portable toilet brought, a tall one that you rent from, you know, Kiwi Hire or whatever it\u2019s called\u2014it\u2019s put there\u2014somebody who had a campervan with a portable toilet inside it would be breaking the law if they were in there. So I agree with you, Minister\u2014if they were then camping there and using this other portable toilet. I agree with you that we should focus on the problem and penalise that problem. Nobody wants the waste that we see in places.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EBut the other problem we have with the legislation is it doesn\u2019t deal with this, because it doesn\u2019t say to somebody who has a certified campervan that they must use that toilet; they can do whatever they want with their business, and therein lies the problem. The issue is people not using facilities, portable or a fixed toilet, and where they don\u2019t use those, they are the ones causing harm to the environment and to our tourist areas, and they should be stopped. They should be found, they should be fined, they should be made to pay those fines, and so on, but that\u2019s not what this legislation does. What this legislation does punitively is focus on New Zealanders, whether there is a large percentage or a small percentage of them, who have campervans with portable toilets who are responsible. What it does is say to them, \u201CYou can no longer do this, even though you are not causing any harm.\u201D, and I think that\u2019s the bit that we need to focus on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003ENow, the last Minister was correct: you do have people driving around in smaller than\u2014they\u2019re not really campervans; they\u2019re in cars or station wagons, sleeping in the back, and they have a bucket in it and call it a toilet. Well, of course, that\u2019s not what we\u2019re talking about, but, actually, if we look at the great amount of regulation that this bill is going to create, a huge amount of regulation, it\u2019s surely not too much for us to ask for plumbers or gasfitters or somebody else to do some work and come up with a clear definition of what a portable toilet is, the standards that are required\u2014just as the standards that will be required for a fixed toilet will also be decided\u2014and that it must be used, and where it is used, you are able to freedom camp. It may not be a large group of New Zealanders, it may not be hundreds of thousands of New Zealanders, but it probably is 10 or 20,000 Kiwis who are responsible. They do this often: they go camping, they have a portable toilet. Sometimes they\u2019re in a campground with facilities; other times they\u2019re not. They are in areas they\u2019re allowed to camp, but under this legislation, under law, they won\u2019t be able to, even though they\u2019re being responsible and they\u2019re using a portable toilet properly, responsibly\u2014well, it\u2019ll be breaking the laws and they will be up for a fine, and I think that is the largest part of the problem with this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003ETo many, it may not seem like a big deal\u2014well, they can go somewhere else\u2014but what we are doing is saying that we are going to restrict their freedoms because some other people pollute and are not responsible, and there\u2019s not many of you so it doesn\u2019t matter. Well, I don\u2019t think that is the responsible thing for this House to do. Actually, it\u2019s a very, very large Supplementary Order Paper; there are lots of regulations that will come as a result of it. To get the officials to get it right, not us in this House but other experts can come up with a clear definition of what a portable toilet is, actually to a standard that\u2019s acceptable, that will be used as much as a fixed one, and that if they are not used, that\u2019s the penalty, not the penalty or the fine in using a portable toilet in a vehicle that\u2019s not certified, then we would be doing a better job. It may only be 20 or 30,000 Kiwis, but these are hard-working people that are responsible New Zealanders that don\u2019t deserve to be lumbered in with those who are not meeting their responsibility and defecating all over the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022de210124784a41ce9e3028009b6e57b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de210124784a41ce9e3028009b6e57b6\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Minister of Tourism):\u003C/span\u003E If I can go back to one of the questions asked by the ACT Party member, Aussie residents are not here on visitor visas, so they would have entitlement of exemption, as they are given a resident\u2019s visa for the time they\u2019re visiting here. Hopefully, that addresses the member\u2019s question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EComing back to the Hon Todd McClay\u2019s contribution, the Government has been quite clear, over a number of years, that we have supported local councils and local government to be able to invest in more facilities that can cater for visitor numbers, and building infrastructure for example. I myself visited Mount Ruapehu some time ago to open one such area that had proper facilities. It also had Wi-Fi, and it also had a very clear area where people were able to use the facilities but also stay there for the night. We\u2019re quite clear in supporting local councils to build their infrastructure through matters like the Tourism Infrastructure Fund. This creates more opportunities for people to do the right thing. It creates spaces where people can go along and can continue to have trust that the facilities they are using clearly do not break the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWhat we do know is that the inappropriate disposal of waste is an offence anyway. So what we\u2019re trying to do is support councils not only to stamp out this bad behaviour but also to invest in those spaces, so that people can continue to enjoy the freedom of travelling around this country, can continue to go to those key tourism destinations that our many international visitors enjoy, and our domestic tourism market can as well. The bill makes it quite clear that the penalties for committing this offence have increased from $200 to $400, just to send the right message, to change the behaviour that we\u2019re talking about\u2014the bad behaviour that we\u2019re referring to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EAlso, Cabinet agreed to a tiered infringement fee regime. That\u2019s important as we look towards the way that we support councils in implementing this particular piece of legislation\u2014the way that they enforce it and the way that we can continue to make sure that we stamp out this behaviour. It\u2019s going to take some time, and we\u2019ve made it clear, in order to get the right messaging out\u2014whether you\u2019re a domestic traveller or whether you\u2019re an international visitor, those messages are clear to our people\u2014in order to stop the behaviour that we\u2019re seeing and, sadly, is being cleaned up by local authorities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u0022d51ca464aa91467c92b1ebe8a96373ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d51ca464aa91467c92b1ebe8a96373ab\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (National\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you. Minister, I see that you had a note and you mentioned that it\u2019s already an offence to not dispose of waste correctly, but that wasn\u2019t the point that I was making. My point is\u2014it\u2019s a very clear question, I guess, and this will clear it up, to see whether the legislation or the Supplementary Order Paper that\u2019s been put in by you, Minister, or by the Government, actually has fixed the problem or not. Is it against the law for somebody with a certified campervan who has a fixed toilet in it to not use that toilet and to go out and to defecate on the grass beside them? And is it lawful for somebody with a campervan that has a fixed toilet, who uses it, to freedom camp?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9e6bad0ba3c4b24a49f37a239611f9f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9e6bad0ba3c4b24a49f37a239611f9f\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Minister of Tourism):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Is it the responsibility of the health system to treat somebody\u2019s sunburn when the person owned a hat or owned sunscreen? The kind of question that the member is posing\u2014it just seems irrational that somebody would own a vehicle with a fixed toilet and continue to do their business outside. That just doesn\u2019t make sense to me. And what we\u2019re trying to do here, as I\u2019ve continued to reiterate to the committee in this session, is to make sure that we can stamp out this behaviour. We do it through utilising our councils in a regime that will make sure that these vehicles are certified, and we\u2019ve given time for that certification process to happen and for the regulatory framework to be built here. I\u2019ve also mentioned that we have a very clear plan to make sure that the messages are being clearly explained to visitors and to people who travel the country to make sure that they aren\u2019t unwittingly caught by this particular legislation, to make sure that we continue to stamp out the behaviour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u002266b8870b526d4d8ab3cc9156f9f71648\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266b8870b526d4d8ab3cc9156f9f71648\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Look, I\u2019m happy to take a call on this. I just want to give the Minister one quick example on his previous point about the irrational comment\u2014or his perception that the comment or view was irrational\u2014that Mr McClay made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s quite plausible that there could be a scenario where someone would have a campervan with a fixed toilet in it, but not want to use that fixed toilet\u2014for example, if they were hiring it and it had an additional cleaning charge to use that facility, and so then they may indeed wish to avoid that cleaning charge by not using the particular fixed toilet in that vehicle. So I think that\u2019s quite a realistic example that Mr McClay was referring to that could indeed see someone not using that and looking to go in the bushes, as it were.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EBut, look, that aside, I\u2019m interested to ask the Minister a couple of questions around this self-containment certification authority and the process for getting that certification for a particular vehicle\u2014in particular, the initial process, once this legislation comes into play. So I\u2019d like the Minister to give us some insight into exactly how many certifications he believes will be needed and how long he thinks it will take for all of those certifications to be given or made and then how many self-containment certification authorities would be needed to ensure that those self-contained certifications can be issued by those authorities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ESo a few questions there: how many self-certifying authorities will be needed? How many vehicles are going to need to be given these certifications? What\u2019s the time frame for that? Is he confident that could be met\u2014once the legislation comes into play, that there will not be a significant lag where we therefore have thousands of vehicles that have been unable to secure the certification through no fault of their own, simply through the fault of a lack of processing capacity within the system that he is setting up? And does he have an expectation around a time frame that would be appropriate, both in the initial phase, and then further down the track for the certification process to take place on any given vehicle? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u00221e7acaa64bb242e494eefefd942fef24\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e7acaa64bb242e494eefefd942fef24\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Minister, I was just interested in your response before where you said that it would be illogical for someone to have a fixed toilet and not use it. My question is: wouldn\u2019t it also be illogical for someone to have a portable toilet and not use it, and why the difference? Because if someone has a portable toilet, it makes, I would suggest, just as much sense for them to use that as it would a fixed toilet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EObviously there needs to be the right regulatory framework to make sure that people aren\u2019t taking the mickey and, you know, having a bucket or something as a portable toilet\u2014it needs make sure that it\u2019s of a good standard. But my question is: why hasn\u2019t this bill addressed that point?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EAnd on that point, there\u2019s a Supplementary Order Paper which is on the Table, and I\u2019d ask that the Minister has a look at it\u2014Supplementary Order Paper 356, which has addressed this issue. It\u2019s been placed there under my name, a proposed amendment which would replace clause 44 and make it clear that a vehicle is equipped with a toilet that is either \u201Cpermanently fixed to the vehicle and usable within the vehicle; or is portable and otherwise meets the requirements set out in regulations\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ESo I would suggest that the Minister adopt this Supplementary Order Paper, which would clarify this point and make it clear that some vehicles\u2019 non-fixed toilets can be certified as \u201Cself-contained\u201D, and that would be a sensible way, I would suggest, Minister, of addressing this particular issue and making it clear that we want people to be using their toilets and their vehicles, but also making it clear that there\u2019s no true distinction between a proper portable toilet and a fixed toilet. If people are reminded and responsible to use either, they will use those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThere is one other point I\u2019ll just briefly touch on. I want to make sure these decisions that we\u2019re making in this committee are based on evidence and not just based on an incidental observation here and there. The observation the Minister made of stopping and seeing some waste close to the road\u2014well, I understood the Minister\u2019s comment, and the question is whether that was done by someone staying overnight or whether that was someone who was stopping, trying to find somewhere where there was no public toilet available and using it and then carrying on in their vehicle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ESo we need to be making sure we address legislation towards an identified problem that\u2019s based on sufficient and adequate evidence. And I would ask the Minister: are we making decisions, in this Chamber this afternoon, on that basis, or on the basis of an incidental observation without any evidence to really supplement or underpin the decisions that are made?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u00224d4aa52518e147d7bcc182f9c82ff4fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d4aa52518e147d7bcc182f9c82ff4fc\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Minister of Tourism):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you to the members for their questions, and I\u2019m going to try and address some of them in my contribution here. Independent research commissioned by the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment found that around 76 percent of New Zealanders thought that freedom camping has negative impacts on the local environment. If we\u2019re looking towards clear research and evidence to make sure that the moves we are making here with this particular bill address these matters, it was through this particular research that it made it clear to us, as well as our engagement with local councils and local authorities, that something had to be done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EAround 55 percent of New Zealand residents would like to see more restrictions placed on freedom camping, and certainly in my engagements as well, once again with local authorities and local government in some of the most beautiful places, they talk about this ongoing challenge of cleaning up these areas because of the acts of irresponsible people. And so making sure that we can continue to support them with an evidence base and a research base with this particular bill has always been at the forefront of what we\u2019re trying to achieve here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe member Tim van de Molen asked about the time frames and about the length of time and also the numbers involved. So the transition is a two-year transition period\u2014and that\u2019s always been quite clear\u2014at which point we expect all self-contained vehicles to be certified under the new system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI did mention earlier, in my first contribution, that the Supplementary Order Paper introduces the ability to extend that transition period by up to two years if necessary\u2014and there could be a number of complex factors as to why it might need that extension and to do it by Order in Council. But when working with the regulator here, we\u2019re making sure that we\u2019ve given enough time frame to be able to cater for any of those delays if they occur.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWhat it also does is it sets out quite clearly the job that we all have to do to make sure that we educate and inform visitors through that period\u2014for those who are wishing to certify their vehicle, those who are looking towards doing so, but also those of the general public who need to understand these to make sure that we can continue to report bad behaviour, to make sure that we can continue to allow people who visit this country\u2014and also domestic tourism markets\u2014to travel more freely around this country and do so within the rules, whereby they\u2019re respecting the environment, the place that they visit, and also the social licence that is gained and offered by community to places that are frequently visited by large numbers of people throughout the year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u002275c6eb02641c49ac80bfaa2d4ff13fbd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275c6eb02641c49ac80bfaa2d4ff13fbd\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. That helps with one part of it, but I did really want to get a gauge on how long he feels it will take and whether, therefore, it\u2019s likely to need that two-year extension or not, but, more specifically, how many of these self-contained certification authorities he believes will be needed to meet that requirement and whether he has confidence that many of those can indeed be certified.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EBecause we\u2019re talking here about setting up a new system and therefore having to find a whole group of people who can act as self-containment certification authorities. And I\u2019m interested in whether he has confidence that there are enough people to fill those roles, how many of those roles he thinks needs to be filled, and not just for the initial period but also ongoing\u2014obviously, initially getting through that bulk load of vehicles will be a higher demand load, but also to the point around the time frame for certification after the initial period. So renewals or for new vehicles down the track, how long will they have to be certified, and does he have confidence that the number of certification authorities will be sufficient for that purpose? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022252de5a79a3b4090be4e7998ba0c480a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022252de5a79a3b4090be4e7998ba0c480a\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Minister of Tourism):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for his questions and I want to continue to reiterate that the register is a crucial part of the new system, and it\u2019s that system that enables the enforcement officers and the public to determine whether a vehicle is self-contained or not. It talks about the displaying of a warrant to make sure that it is certified. I do have confidence in working with the regulator that we can, within the two-year period, probably do a really good job at making sure we can register and certify as many of these vehicles as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EBut, as I mentioned, we do reserve the ability to extend that for whatever reason and, you know, this country has seen those kinds of left-field situations\u2014that were unexpected\u2014impact on this country. We talk about severe weather events, and the last time I checked Nostradamus wasn\u2019t in the National Party. So we can\u2019t predict weather events. We can\u2019t predict global pandemics. We can\u2019t predict many of the challenges that have impacted on global supply chains. And some of those matters were already canvassed in the submissions that were made to the committee, which is why we\u2019ve made it quite clear that we want to have the two-year transition period, and, of course, we reserve the right to be able to extend that for a further two years if need be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EBut overall, in response to that member: yes, I do have confidence that we can have the workforce and that we have the capacity to be able to deliver this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u0022af6ea5c7d22647aab3bcd627d09b4ebc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af6ea5c7d22647aab3bcd627d09b4ebc\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (National\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you very much. Just on the point that the Minister was making around the certification time of October, or other, but I see the member Anna Lorck was shaking her head a moment ago. I\u2019m not sure whether it\u2019s because she doesn\u2019t understand the legislation, or she\u2019s seen a poll in her electorate and knows she\u2019s in trouble and has only five months left here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EBut\u2014coming more closely to this point\u2014to the Minister; one of the concerns that was raised with this new regulatory regime being set up by the plumbers and gasfitters, was that people will have to be employed and they will have to work all of the things out, and it would help with the certification. No question about working out the rules around certification or the regulations and so on, but particularly around them once that\u2019s in place, who gets to certify? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EWe know that up and down the country, if you have a motorhome of over 3.5 tonnes and you need to go and have, not the warrant of fitness but the certificate of fitness, I think it\u2019s called\u2014just as for many people getting a warrant of fitness, there can be quite long delays, and they are waiting for many hours, or, in some cases, half a day to get through the process. Having established this new system to certify a campervan, as this legislation is suggesting, as having a fixed toilet, or, as we would prefer, we would say a non-fixed toilet, Minister\u2014whether or not the plumbers and gaslayers are the best people, or the only people, that should be then doing the certification, or whether the New Zealand Motor Caravan Association could also do it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThey already have a regime in place under the existing legislation where they are doing certification. I think that we all accept that that legislation doesn\u2019t meet the requirements that the House would have in making sure that freedom camping is controlled well. Our issues over the types of campervans that are used aside, and whether or not we can decide that the New Zealand Motor Caravan Association\u2014a majority of people who have motor homes, I think, are probably their members. We would ask whether they too should play a role and whether we should recognise that they are a certifying body. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, it\u2019s not to say that they decide what the conditions are to be certified or what are the regulations or rules, but, actually, just as a garage gets to go out and issue a warrant of fitness where the Ministry of Transport has decided what standards a car should meet to get that warrant of fitness, in this case the plumbers and gaslayers would be the certifying authority but the New Zealand Motor Caravan Association would also be that. My colleague Joseph Mooney has a Supplementary Order Paper in this area which would merely say that they can also certify under the conditions set by the legislation and set by the plumbers and gaslayers council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u002257d0e990afdb4749b5f0c903e8aef0e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002257d0e990afdb4749b5f0c903e8aef0e2\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Minister of Tourism):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s the opinion of this Government that we have catered for that within the legislation. I expect, as the member pointed out, that the New Zealand Motor Caravan Association is likely to apply to be a certificating authority on the matter simply because of the points and the facts that the member has raised here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EBut I want to highlight a particular matter that is important when we look towards setting up a regulatory regime here, and that is the independence factor, which is why we are still of the firm belief that the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Board is still the right regulatory authority that we\u2019ll be working with to establish the framework. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u0022d856d6ce0da647f48349eb55ec208231\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d856d6ce0da647f48349eb55ec208231\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Minister, thank you for engaging in these questions that have been raised. There\u2019s one point that I\u2019m not still not entirely clear on\u2014the Supplementary Order Paper around the definition of \u201Cpersons not freedom camping\u201D. As it\u2019s framed\u2014I\u2019ll just read it out, it says \u201Cis a person other than a person who is in New Zealand on the basis of a visitor visa\u201D. Does that mean a person who is on a visitor visa in New Zealand and freedom camps but can\u2019t find appropriate residential accommodation will be subject to the restrictions in this bill, and a person who is on a visa that\u2019s not a visitor visa won\u2019t be if they are unable to find appropriate residential accommodation? So that\u2019s a point that, as I read it, it seems to me to say that a person will be subject to the restrictions in this bill if they are on a visitor visa in New Zealand, but if they are on, say, a work visa, for example, they won\u2019t be if they are a person who falls in this exception that they are unable to live in appropriate residential accommodation. I\u2019d appreciate it if you could just make that clear, Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EI can continue, while the Minister\u2019s looking at that. I would ask if the Minister would take on board Supplementary Order Paper 356 in my name, which does change the definition from a vehicle that\u2019s equipped with a toilet that is permanently fixed to the vehicle and usable within the vehicle, or is portable and otherwise meets the requirements set out in regulations. So I would ask if the Minister would make it clear if that is being rejected by the Minister or whether the Minister is minded to accept that and take that on board. I would suggest that would be a sensible amendment to make to take into account the fact that there are people who are quite responsible and do use vehicles that have portable toilets in them. So I can take a seat now if the Minister is in a position to answer that question or I can continue. Continue? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f661fe5b9b7491db5ceb944ce07ab67\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: Tell us a joke.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022faafc26728564f1485ef64a1033201de\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY\u003C/span\u003E: Mr van de Molen says I should say a joke. The only ones I can think of, that spring to mind, are probably not appropriate right now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EBut, look, the other point I would ask some questions around is just around this change, the definition of \u201Cfreedom camping\u201D being amended to provide that a person who\u2019s living in a tent or a motor vehicle because they aren\u2019t able to live in appropriate residential accommodations are not freedom camping. I note that there is a new clause 38A which requires the Minister, no later than two years after the commencement date, to review and report to the House of Representatives on the effect of the bill on homelessness. And I would ask why the Government, or why the Minister, has settled on a date no later than two years rather than making that, say, a little bit shorter\u2014for example, one year\u2014to give some relatively rapid feedback to the House, but taking into account some time to elapse for the effect of this bill to become clear. Why is it two years as opposed to one year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6e55ac56e9640d890ed7636f9894021\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6e55ac56e9640d890ed7636f9894021\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Minister of Tourism):\u003C/span\u003E In answer to one of the member\u2019s questions, the homelessness exemption is based on the Stats New Zealand definition of homelessness. And to be clear to the member and others who have asked this question, travellers are usually excluded from the Stats New Zealand definition of homelessness, hence why it won\u2019t apply to those on a visitor visa. I hope that clears the matter up for the member. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWith respect to the member\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) that he mentioned and whether or not I\u2019d be supporting that, much to my dismay I won\u2019t be supporting the member\u2019s SOP but I thank the member for his engagement with this particular bill from its genesis to now. He\u2019s been an active member in continuing to promote his view, which is why I want to thank that member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWith respect to the time frame around reporting back to this House, in particular to Cabinet, around matters with respect to homelessness, it is because it is our expectation\u2014that\u2019s why we set the two-year parameters for the regulatory framework to be set up to give operators time to be able to make sure that they can certify their vehicles and make sure that they can, if needed, put work into their vehicles to fix the toilet in their vehicles. And I think it\u2019s only fair that it\u2019s that time we also take to make sure that we monitor the matter with respect to homelessness. I think it was a good point\u2014and it was raised by the Green Party\u2014about making sure that those who do find themselves homeless aren\u2019t negatively impacted by this bill. And we can come back after a good length of time to see the way that this particular regulatory framework will look towards administering the bill to make sure we\u2019re clear on matters of homelessness. But I want to be clear to the committee that, you know, homelessness matters don\u2019t just reside under this portfolio; we take a view across our entire work portfolio to make sure that we can continue to monitor homelessness, but, more importantly, look towards solving it for the many people who find themselves there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u00221eb268dd504f4b67820e53cbafb06200\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221eb268dd504f4b67820e53cbafb06200\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. And thank you, Minister, again, for engaging in this. Just on that point of requiring the Minister no later than 2 years after the commencement date to review and report to the House of Representatives on the effect of the bill on homelessness\u2014and, look, I support the intention of that, and I think it\u2019s useful to have a requirement for the relevant Minister to report on the effect of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EJust in that vein, Minister, I have another Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) in my name\u2014SOP 355\u2014and I would ask if the Minister would consider taking this on board, which would just expand that intent, and take it from just focusing on homelessness to also focusing on a few other matters which I think would be helpful both for the Minister and for the ministry and for the House. And this Supplementary Order Paper, Minister, says, \u201C(1) The Department and the Department of Internal Affairs must, within 1 year of the end of the transitional period,\u2014(a) review the operation of the Amendment Act, since the date of its commencement, in so far as it relates to its effect on\u2014(i) costs to people freedom camping; and (ii) the usage of permitted freedom camping areas; and (iii) waste, generated while freedom camping, being deposited in and on permitted freedom camping areas (other than into an appropriate waste receptacle); and (iv) the proportion of people freedom camping using self-contained motor vehicles.\u201D And then the department to \u201C(b) prepare a report on the review for the Minister of Tourism.\u201D And the requirement that \u201C(2) The review must include recommendations to the Minister of Tourism on whether any amendments to the Act are necessary or desirable.\u201D And finally: \u201C(3) As soon as practicable after receiving the report, the Minister of Tourism must present a copy of that report to the House of Representatives.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EI would suggest, Minister, that those are, in the scheme of things, fairly apolitical things that would be quite useful for the department, firstly; and, secondly, for the Minister of Tourism to have that information; and, thirdly, for the House to have that information. And I suggest that that would be a nice addition to the intention here on reviewing and reporting to the House of Representatives on the effect of the bill on homelessness, and to add this as a requirement would make sure that we had a good piece of law that is being reviewed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EAnd, if not, the points that we have raised and our concerns that we have with this bill could be addressed by requiring this information to be collated and reported back to the House. Because, as my colleague the Hon Todd McClay said, we support the broad intention of this, but we are of the view that, unfortunately, the Government has got it slightly wrong in just focusing on fixed toilets as opposed to those that are not fixed but, in our view, can be up to standard, and really focusing the issue on those who are not using toilets in these areas and resulting their waste. So I would ask that the Minister would incorporate this into the review and report back to the House of Representatives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u00226ec20302748a4e4081f862efd59b07d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ec20302748a4e4081f862efd59b07d9\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Minister of Tourism):\u003C/span\u003E Once again I apologise to the member. We won\u2019t be supporting Supplementary Order Paper 355 that he\u2019s referred to. And there are a number of matters here that I want to just touch on. It\u2019s that the review that the member is mentioning, to my perspective, is rather broad and potentially rather costly. And what we don\u2019t want to be doing is heaping more cost on to local authorities. As we look towards the matters that the member raised, we do and will continue to monitor the implementation of this particular bill after it becomes legislation. But also I want to be clear to the member that there\u2019s nothing to stop a more targeted review in the future if issues or opportunities eventuate, but it is the opinion of myself and the Government that that doesn\u2019t need to be mandated as the member described in this particular bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022 data-id=\u00223286bee5ac7e488390cdfdc5b3a9febe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223286bee5ac7e488390cdfdc5b3a9febe\u0022\u003EDr JAMES McDOWALL (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. So if I can just get the Minister to confirm that, under this law, this legislation, given the Supplementary Order Paper, visitors, tourists from Australia, will be treated differently\u2014very differently\u2014to tourists coming from, say, the United Kingdom. Immigration rules aside, I\u2019d just like to know the justification behind that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b933d0b9f68248c19914832d9b9e555c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b933d0b9f68248c19914832d9b9e555c\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Minister of Tourism):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you again. Look, I\u2019m prepared to work with the member to clarify more of this particular matter with him. What became clear as we looked towards the impact on those who visit was the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. What we tried to do was make sure we\u2019ve got balance here, but if the member will indulge me, I\u2019ll be more than happy to come back to him with a very specific way that the intention with this Supplementary Order Paper is looking towards those who visit the country from Australia and other places around the world. But I note the member\u2019s concern and question, and I\u2019ll come back to him in the near future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u002289c3fbdc891b45c7b9395eb691ace483\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289c3fbdc891b45c7b9395eb691ace483\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to ask the Minister about clause 49 in the Supplementary Order Paper, which does insert a new section enabling regulations to be made that prescribe levies to be paid by owners of motor vehicles with self-contained certificates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s amended to ensure that, in the first year, the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Board sets levies and it can include in those levies any initial set-up costs incurred after the bill is enacted but before the amendments to the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Act 2006 come into force.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m just asking: are there any limitations to that regulatory power for the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Board to set levies that include any initial set-up costs? Because I would imagine that there is the prospect that those potentially could be quite high.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EHas the Minister set in place any limitations to ensure that any initial set-up costs aren\u2019t prohibitive; that the Plumbers, Gasfitters, and Drainlayers Board can set a set-up that is prohibitive for those who have to comply with this and have to set this up? Because there is potentially a concern here that that could be quite significant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EI would ask if the Minister has addressed that issue or has tuned his mind to it and what, if any, advice has been given to the Minister on this particular point. If the Minister is able to address that point, it\u2019d be helpful. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u00223e11f1a561f84ffe86f5edab4aa9c2ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e11f1a561f84ffe86f5edab4aa9c2ab\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Minister of Tourism):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for his question. The expected cost is to be approximately $120 for the certification process. But I note the member\u2019s concern here, and it\u2019s clear as we implement this particular framework, that we\u2019ll continue to work with the regulator as those costs become very clear to us. But I want to be clear to the member that as we look towards this particular fee, we don\u2019t want to be pricing our people out of paradise either.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u0022e94b521b58f4426e88ce727ca2047b25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e94b521b58f4426e88ce727ca2047b25\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00225a5a49ff3dde4a25bdc6954aeaecff60\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a5a49ff3dde4a25bdc6954aeaecff60\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022acaaba283a8f4d9cafbb91bdcd70aad3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022acaaba283a8f4d9cafbb91bdcd70aad3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 351 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022993e93f2cb134d078215cb1a36c5db93\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b887d743e3294e48a080396164026e1c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b887d743e3294e48a080396164026e1c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Joseph Mooney\u2019s amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 354 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e8318bc2b9ae482b8445af8301d80deb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5e9929ca42e45e8b058ed7720ea2384\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5e9929ca42e45e8b058ed7720ea2384\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Joseph Mooney\u2019s amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 356 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223332fc52c5074fb0a6d4fdf2bed3cb0f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022853e445291c04076a146c5714326ff88\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022853e445291c04076a146c5714326ff88\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Joseph Mooney\u2019s amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 355 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a4636ebbf0af445caa3f55be7dcf74a8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 72\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225258ebaaede34251b33d8c6957539c9d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Parts 1 to 3, Schedules 1 to 3, and clauses 1 and 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EParts 1 to 3, Schedules 1 to 3, and clauses 1 and 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000515\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002233b3a1b00b4546d5b22088bd581c4bb2\u0022\u003EAccident Compensation (Access Reporting and Other Matters) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229ea69dae110d4603887a7e3876e25f0a\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022880da264860b4e11a3af8c181583be93\u0022\u003EPart 1 and 2, the Schedule, and clauses 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022858bb04a76d54a818e495d2ac9a34da9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022858bb04a76d54a818e495d2ac9a34da9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to the Accident Compensation (Access Reporting and Other Matters) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u0022b829bb818e7e46a4a5581e30ec954c17\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b829bb818e7e46a4a5581e30ec954c17\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for all provisions to be taken as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002271393491ef194cf59b4ab44dff0f3984\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271393491ef194cf59b4ab44dff0f3984\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is none. Members\u2014oh, I\u2019m just going to find it. The question is that Parts 1 and 2, the Schedule, and clauses 1 to 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed16829eeb2547b3bcde0ff46db72f5e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed16829eeb2547b3bcde0ff46db72f5e\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E Can I begin by acknowledging the Education and Workforce Committee for its diligent and thorough consideration of this bill. I also want to acknowledge everyone who has submitted on the bill during the select committee stage. I understand that the committee considered submissions from a range of organisations and representatives. Their input has been proven to be invaluable in this process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe Accident Compensation (Access Reporting and Other Matters) Amendment Bill makes three changes to the Accident Compensation Act, all broadly focused on improving equity of access to the accident compensation scheme. The bill delivers on two of our 2020 election manifesto commitments. The first, which Part 1 deals with, is to return the Accident Compensation Corporation to its original purpose of assisting all New Zealanders who have had an injury. The second commitment we are delivering on, included in Part 2, is to address the changes that National made when last in office, which unfairly disadvantaged tens of thousands of New Zealand workers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EPart 1 of the bill sets up the new duty for ACC to report on access to the scheme by M\u0101ori and identified population groups. It also makes changes to the purpose of the Act and adds a corresponding function for ACC. These changes reaffirm ACC\u2019s focus on all people with eligible injuries, rather than only on those who have made a claim. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe new access reports will focus on how many population groups experiencing barriers are accessing ACC, including women, disabled people, Pacific people, and M\u0101ori. M\u0101ori are specifically named for inclusion in the access reports to acknowledge their status as tangata whenua and Treaty partners to the Crown. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe new reporting duty will improve transparency around access to the scheme, and the reports will not only provide data on how the scheme is being used but will go a few steps further to understand why people are or are not accessing ACC when they are entitled to. We know that some groups are accessing and benefiting less from ACC than others, but we do not have a good insight into why, or the drivers of these disparities. If we are to remove barriers to ACC, this is where we need to start. As a Minister for ACC, I want to know what is causing any disparities so that we can begin to fix them. I want to know if it\u2019s about how and where we are offering treatment or the cost of transport or a lack of trust or something else. These reports go further than anything we currently do or have previously done to understand access to the accident compensation scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EPart 2 of the bill brings forward eligibility for the minimum rate of weekly compensation from the sixth to the second week of a claimant\u2019s incapacity to work, reversing a change from 2010. This means people will get access to a top-up to their weekly compensation earlier, supporting them in their recovery, a change that ACC estimates will help approximately 10,000 people. It also inserts a new Part 4 into Schedule 1AA of the Act. These provisions outline the requirements for the first and second access reports. The first two access reports have different staggered requirements to allow ACC to phase in its capability to understand what the data is showing and what are the causes of disparities in access to the scheme, and to produce the reports over three years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EOther changes to Schedule 1 of the Act state that the change to the timing of eligibility for the minimum rate of weekly compensation applies to claimants who first become entitled to weekly compensation on or after the date that the change comes into effect, and to claimants who were already entitled to weekly compensation and continue to be entitled to it when the change comes into effect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ELastly, I want to acknowledge the differing views from parties across the House, as presented in the select committee\u2019s report, and the Green Party\u2019s additional views. I look forward to a robust debate on these particular issues, and I look forward to questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u002229173ff4da954077ac073046eaccec6d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002229173ff4da954077ac073046eaccec6d\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m quite happy to remind the Minister of my questions, and indeed I thought it was quite interesting through his contribution that he talks about wanting to improve access for New Zealanders, and indeed we absolutely support that. This legislation talks about improving access for M\u0101ori, but improving access for all New Zealanders is a fantastic and admirable goal that we indeed support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ENow, the Minister also misconstrued my comments in relation to being able to ask for this information of ACC currently. I didn\u2019t suggest that the information is readily available; I suggested indeed that the Minister should be able to pick up the phone and ask the CEO of ACC to compile a report exactly in the nature of what this legislation proposes. There is nothing currently that stops him from doing that. The information may not be available right now, but he can instruct the CEO of ACC to conduct a report to find out whether or not people are fairly accessing the scheme, and all the aspects mentioned under this legislation. That can be done right now. It does not need legislation to tell an agency to do a report. Goodness me, what are we coming to when we have to legislate for that sort of basic information? If the Minister disagrees with that, I\u2019d be interested if he could point us to where in the legislation he is prevented from asking the CEO to deliver that sort of information to him right now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ENow, one of the questions I had was about the focus here on improving delivery of service and whether or not that restricted his ability to change access for any group that may ultimately be discovered to be receiving access over and above other groups; they may be getting an unfair advantage in terms of accessing the ACC scheme, for whatever reason. But this legislation outlines that the Minister now is only able to identify how to improve delivery of service and not to change or hold or maintain a level of service for any particular population groups. I am interested in whether he has any concerns around whether or not that will be fit for purpose. And, again, this highlights the clunky nature of putting a basic request like this into legislation. We just do not have the flexibility to alter or adapt your requirements over time. Indeed, the Minister would have to come back to the House with a new piece of legislation to change that if it was found that one particular population group was getting access over and above others and therefore needed a different focus. So I\u2019m interested in that particular piece.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EAnd also then to the other point around the access\u2014the causes, factors, distributions contributing to the disparities and barriers\u2014whether indeed there are some that he has seen right now in relation to M\u0101ori or to another population group that he may have on his mind. And also then, under new Part 4, section 14, around not requiring the reporting to be done in the second year. And this just seems like an interesting carve-out\u2014is it then indeed happening in the first year or the third year or all subsequent years; simply not the second year? And that refers to the factors contributing to those disparities and barriers as identified by the corporation. So that\u2019s 278B(2)(d), which in that section 4 then is specifically required not to be reported on. Surely that defeats the purpose of conducting the report. And if they don\u2019t have the capacity to conduct the report, then why are we asking for it in the first place?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003ESo I think it\u2019s quite clear that we are talking here about a piece of legislation that is simply not fit for purpose and takes away the ability of the Minister to be flexible, takes away the ability of ACC to adapt to changing circumstances. Indeed, if we look back in history, actually under the Clark Government, there was this sort of information being provided. They got rid of it back in 2006, I believe it was\u2014and Mr Woodhouse might have a better handle or memory on some of that information\u2014but at the time, the Minister of the day was able to get exactly this sort of information and make decisions off the back of it. We do not need legislation for this and I would encourage the Minister to be practical, to get rid of that, to keep the last part about accessing the time frame, bringing it down from six to two, but I certainly appreciate his comments on those questions I\u2019ve raised. Again, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u00226dd8aaa785d34776ad6cf1e7a48f3d92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226dd8aaa785d34776ad6cf1e7a48f3d92\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E The Crown Entities Act is quite clear in the way that Crown entities engage with Ministers. Simply, a Minister picking up a phone and calling the chief executive to give an imperative towards this particular work that we\u2019re discussing in this bill actually isn\u2019t correct. Legislation does that, however. It gives an impetus to ACC, and to counter one of the points that the member makes, actually, it gives it more tools. It also gives the Minister more tools in order to make sure that the ACC scheme is more equitable into the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI also would like to point out that with respect to those who might\u2014I can\u2019t quite remember, recall the words of the member in his question\u2014over-receive, or those who might receive more than what they are entitled to, there are already provisions within the Act to make sure that there is no fraudulent activity for those who do look towards, and I can\u2019t remember the words of the member, over-receiving, or, certainly \u201Cripping the system off\u201D, I think is the word that better describes it. There are already provisions in the Act that make it clear that that is an offence. You cannot do that. So with respect to those who might over-receive, we make sure that in a professional manner, ACC continues to deliver a scheme that meets the needs of New Zealanders. For those who might over-receive\u2014one might call that \u201Cripping the system off\u201D\u2014there are already provisions here to make sure we can look after that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWhat isn\u2019t clear, though, is the size of the disparity for those who don\u2019t access the scheme, and the member asked me to point towards areas where we might notice this, and I myself have already mentioned with my other hat on, as associate health Minister: one need only look towards Wai 2575, the Waitangi Tribunal claim, where a number of factors were raised in that particular tribunal hearing about the under-access, or the inability for particular groups\u2014in particular, M\u0101ori and rural\u2014to access the ACC scheme. What we\u2019re saying in this particular bill is \u201CLet\u2019s make it an impetus for the ACC scheme to make sure that they can serve New Zealanders better.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EAnd with respect to the member\u2019s question around time and the time frames that we\u2019ve put around the reporting on this particular matter, it\u2019s important that we undertake this work in order for us to find where those disparities are. Those disparities don\u2019t necessarily show themselves overnight, and if they did, that tells me that that member makes the assumption that that information already exists. I\u2019m telling the committee right now that it does not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2a9a165a75b43fbbb174b8446c47639\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Then how does he know there\u2019s a problem?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d1f254800004149b08e2f3fe8f06e45\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s in a very transactional manner. And if Mr Woodhouse wants me to send him the link to Wai 2575, it shows clearly that M\u0101ori, in particular, don\u2019t access the ACC scheme; they don\u2019t access healthcare the way that other New Zealanders do. And there\u2019s a myriad of matters, complex matters, which mean that they don\u2019t. There\u2019s matters of trust, there\u2019s matters of lack of funding, there\u2019s a whole heap of matters here, and that information isn\u2019t found in the transactional nature of the reporting that ACC can do right now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u00220a513c72d3194b8db4994c9151965bc6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a513c72d3194b8db4994c9151965bc6\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Now, again, the Minister has misconstrued my comments. I wonder if it\u2019s becoming an intentional effort to try and cover for a terrible piece of legislation. There was no comment whatsoever from me about suggesting that people were \u201Cripping off the system\u201D, as the Minister put it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EIndeed, my comment was around the level of access, as is required under this new piece of legislation\u2014what happens in a scenario where they may be considering access for one particular group they\u2019ve identified, only to find out that that group, indeed, has access over and above what other groups may already have. This legislation specifically says they can only look to \u201Cfurther improve\u201D access for those groups. So why would it be appropriate to improve access for a group that may already have access at a level above what other groups have? Surely the intent, as the Minister, indeed, mentioned in his opening contribution, is to improve access for all New Zealanders. So why would we want to distort that by having a scenario where one group who may already have improved access is only able to have that further enhanced under this legislation? It simply doesn\u2019t make sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc74593e25c240d285d1d447835d297d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc74593e25c240d285d1d447835d297d\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb8c8083735f4a7aab7062e3cb70b27a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb8c8083735f4a7aab7062e3cb70b27a\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Well, we have got a long way to go, Mr Halbert. If that\u2019s the extent of the debate that he thinks we get in the committee of the whole House\u2014when we combine parts and titles and commencement, with the National Party\u2019s agreement\u2014that we should then spend five minutes on this, I think he\u2019s in for a bit of a surprise after dinner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ENow, I want to just touch on a couple of things that the Minister for ACC has said. Now, in his rebuke of Mr van de Molen\u2019s comments about \u201Cpicking up the phone\u201D, he said, \u201CWell, look, we can\u2019t just pick up the phone as Ministers. They\u2019re independent Crown entities, and they can\u2019t work like that.\u201D Well, actually, I consider the euphemism of \u201Cpicking up the phone\u201D to be met by the Minister\u2019s annual letter of expectations. The Minister\u2019s predecessor actually wrote in her letter of expectations for ACC in December 2021, I think it was, that she expected that ACC continue to commission work and that the scheme settings that are \u201Cunderserving women, M\u0101ori, Pacific peoples, disabled peoples, and ethnic communities\u201D be addressed. \u201CI look forward to continuing to work with you on these and other strategic developments in the year ahead.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ENow, whatever the answer to the questions of whether the case for inequities has been made\u2014and I want to ask the Minister questions about that\u2014this bill, as I said in my second reading, is a well-meaning waste of time. The letter of expectations did everything that this bill did, and more. So you could say pick up the phone, write a letter\u2014it\u2019s very clear that the Minister has the degree of influence over ACC\u2019s performance that he stated that he didn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EBut I do want to come to what I think were pretty loaded statements by the Minister about under-reporting of injury by M\u0101ori and disparities and that the data does not exist. He talks about Wai 2575, and we\u2019ll get to that after dinner. He then said it\u2019s clear that there are holes in the data. \u201CWe found that M\u0101ori were underserved by the ACC scheme\u201D; those were the Minister\u2019s words in his response to Mr van de Molen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ESo my question for the Minister, which he can have an hour to think about and come back, is: where is the case for change? He\u2019s asking this committee to accept proof of a negative\u2014proof that there is no data. So if there\u2019s no data, what\u2019s the case for change? Statistics New Zealand and ACC themselves have plenty of data on M\u0101ori injury, serious harm, and death rates compared with the population. It\u2019s an unfortunate reality that the Minister needs to address that, actually, M\u0101ori are overrepresented in too many of those statistics, particularly young M\u0101ori men.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ESo I think\u2014regardless of whether or not we need this bill\u2014we need to have the case for these disparities established, because a Minister for ACC that wants to serve M\u0101ori should be looking for fewer claims by M\u0101ori because they are harmed at a lower rate than they currently are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022710d1499def54ea8a9cde198d3f897ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022710d1499def54ea8a9cde198d3f897ff\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for me to leave the Chair for the dinner break. The House will resume at 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022b108b1fa3bcb44c4a706d4d2519662f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b108b1fa3bcb44c4a706d4d2519662f2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The committee is resumed on the Accident Compensation (Access Reporting and Other Matters) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0f645fff2d7466f97052fb51fef0621\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0f645fff2d7466f97052fb51fef0621\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Just in response to a number of the matters that were raised before the dinner break, the reason for the legislation\u2014and the Hon Michael Woodhouse pointed to the letters of expectation. Yes, that is true; we write letters of expectation. He also pointed out that those letters of expectation\u2014the ones he referred to\u2014were in, I think he dated them, 2021 and 2022, if I recall correctly. In order for us to have an enduring capability, or ability here to be able to meet those expectations, we believe that putting it into legislation, to hold all those in the system accountable to what we\u2019re trying to achieve here, is the best mechanism to do it. We need certainty in order to build a proper time series in the data and to be able to have the analytical capability to make sure that we are addressing those matters of inequities and disparities that I\u2019ve already highlighted in my contributions to this particular matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe data that shows those disparities, as I\u2019ve already mentioned, does exist. It exists not necessarily all at ACC but across different parts of the system, and we\u2019ve already had some discussion around my role as an associate health Minister. But we need to dig and dive a little bit deeper into these particular bits of data. I want to use a particular example: what we know through the ACC data is that Pacific people tend to return to work quicker. Now, the challenge we have is that we can only guess why they do that, but we can\u2019t be exactly sure. There could be a positive or a negative reason for why they return to work quicker. What the data suggests, though, more importantly, is that it may be because 80 percent of them are on a low income, and that means they\u2019ve got to return to work sooner in order to be able to service their bills and their families. That\u2019s why they might be going back to work sooner, and we want to make sure that we understand those matters. At the moment, the data isn\u2019t there to inform those particular points, which is why we need a richer set of data\u2014greater analytics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EMore importantly, though, we need it to be enduring. Ministers come and go. Letters of expectation can continue to evolve and change. This piece of work is an evolution of the letters of expectation sent by my predecessor, and it is my opinion that this particular mechanism, by putting it into legislation, gives it an enduring aspect to allow us all to continue to hold ourselves and the system to account in making sure that communities in this country aren\u2019t underserved by the ACC scheme. That\u2019s a key driver for why we\u2019re doing this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u0022490987e004da4fa0896c01a0733c725f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022490987e004da4fa0896c01a0733c725f\u0022\u003EPENNY SIMMONDS (National\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I am supporting my colleagues in this, in that it does seem a slightly bizarre thing to be putting into legislation what has been able to be accommodated in letters of expectation. I\u2019ve heard what the Minister for ACC said, that this makes it more enduring, but it also, I would have thought, takes the responsibility away from the Minister actually delving into that information and requiring ACC to provide that as required, as specific matters of concern come to the Minister\u2019s attention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EThe other thing\u2014I\u2019m slightly perplexed by it\u2014is that missing mail thing. We don\u2019t know if our mail is missing, if we weren\u2019t expecting the mail. So how does the Minister know that there\u2019s missing data? How does the Minister know that there are disparities? And what information is the Minister going to expect the department to use? Because, as he said, the reports were transactional. People had to have applied to ACC to be able to then formulate reports. So how do reports get derived on what hasn\u2019t been reported? I\u2019d like the Minister to explain to us just how ACC is going to be able to collect information that isn\u2019t there. It does seem a bit of an odd one, for us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003EAlso, I suppose the other area that I was concerned about was the other communities and just who the other communities are. Is it women? Is it disabled? Just how is the Minister going to decide what other communities to target getting the information, which hasn\u2019t come in on these communities? It just sounds very confusing about how we do get the information when, as the Minister is saying, he believes that these communities are not applying. And so, therefore, how will that information be gathered?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003ESo if the Minister could give us more information on how that\u2019s all going to occur, that would be useful. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u00225f0dc9f918b14881931231b636f0c6f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f0dc9f918b14881931231b636f0c6f8\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for her questions. I mentioned earlier about this legislation giving impetus for ACC to be able to make sure that they collect the right data, that they\u2019re able to address the disparities that, as I\u2019ve already mentioned, Wai 2575\u2014ACC has already presented evidence at that particular tribunal claim. I also know across my other portfolios that M\u0101ori are traditionally underserved by Government systems, of which the ACC is one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ESo if there doesn\u2019t seem to be an apparent problem identified by my colleagues in the Opposition, then what are we scared of? If, indeed, the analysis and the data gathering and the impetus we\u2019re providing through this legislation gives the opportunity to show those disparities, which I\u2019m going to suggest are there\u2014and I suggest that because of the data sets that are quite clear in other spaces, and the Hon Michael Woodhouse did mention that there are data sets in health, there are data sets in other places. Well, guess what we did with health in the reform! We passed the Pae Ora legislation, put specifically in there a Tiriti o Waitangi clause to make sure that we do address those disparities, that we do collect the data to ensure that M\u0101ori receive equitable health outcomes. That\u2019s a clear drive by this Government, which is what we\u2019re doing with this particular bill, making sure that that impetus is there in order for ACC to look into these matters. And it\u2019s the same to be said with other population groups which the member has asked about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWhat we do know, for example, and I\u2019ve said it on a number of occasions recently as we look towards updating Schedule 2 of the Act, is that women have been long underserved. The reason we know that is because when Schedule 2 was set, it was set in a time where there were fewer women in the workforce, where it only took predominantly the occupational diseases that were found in predominantly factory work and in areas dominated by male workers. What we now know, though, is the workforce has changed, the nature of work has changed, and it will continue to evolve into the future, which is why we need to make sure that the system that we\u2019ve set up in order to support workers around the country who are injured, who need the support from the ACC scheme, continues to serve them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022 data-id=\u002278dd7167f2aa4a7c82c03a96d795d588\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002278dd7167f2aa4a7c82c03a96d795d588\u0022\u003EHon MICHAEL WOODHOUSE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and I thank the Minister for providing what he could, by way of explanation, to my questions before dinner. But the answers, I fear, actually underscore the confusion that we have here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ENobody is questioning the value of good data and good information; what the National Party is saying is that this isn\u2019t going to change things. We heard, firstly, a very good description of Pasifika people returning to work earlier than the average, and the Minister himself saying, \u201CWell, we don\u2019t know if that\u2019s a good thing or a bad thing.\u201D Well, I would be interested to know what data he is going to collect\u2014if indeed they are one of the groups that might be focused on\u2014how they\u2019re going to work that through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ESecondly, he said, \u201CWe know there are disparities in M\u0101ori health.\u201D Well then, if we are that confident, why are we wasting the House\u2019s time on this? Now, Wai 2575 made it very clear that there were health inequities, certainly in outcomes. But in the 286 pages of the Wai 2575 report, ACC is\u2014and the word \u201Caccident\u201D is mentioned just four times and it makes no reference, actually, to a judgment in that claim that those inequities are actually around injuries and accidents. So I would like the Minister to just explain further why he\u2019s so convinced that this is necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EWhat we do know, sadly, is that M\u0101ori are disproportionately represented in a number of harm statistics: serious injury and fatal injuries in a number of areas at work, because M\u0101ori are disproportionately represented in some of our highest-risk industries. They may make up, I think\u2014the Minister can correct me\u2014about 15 percent of the population, but they\u2019re 34 percent of the forestry workforce. That is, as I understand it, still our most risky industry\u2014construction is another one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EAlso, Stats NZ tells us that M\u0101ori are more likely to be in temporary and precarious work and there\u2019s a high correlation between that and injury rates. We know they\u2019re more likely to be injured in a car accident, particularly young M\u0101ori males at about a one-third greater rate. We know that they\u2019re more likely\u2014three times more likely\u2014to be victims of assault, and certainly they\u2019re about 20-odd percent more likely to die in the workplace.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EBut we know all of that. The question isn\u2019t, \u201CHow much more data can we gather?\u201D The question is\u2014and I would like the Minister to answer this\u2014how does this contribute to the work that needs to happen to make sure M\u0101ori are less represented in these injury statistics? Because that, after all, has to be the goal. We want M\u0101ori to be injured less in motor vehicle accidents at work and by assaults.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s well-meaning; nobody\u2019s arguing the case for better equity\u2014albeit that equity could mean lower rates, not higher rates of claims with ACC. But it seems to me\u2014and this is the answer to the questions that I would like the Minister to address in defending the need for this bill. There are, I think, three questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EOne is: are M\u0101ori at greater or lesser risk of injury caused by an accident? Secondly, if they are injured, are they more or less likely to seek medical treatment, and, if they are less likely, what is the evidence for that? Because the Minister has already sort of said, as a matter of fact, that there are disparities, but I can\u2019t see any data that would suggest that. Now, the Minister says, \u201CWell, we\u2019re going to collect the data.\u201D What is that data; what\u2019s missing? The third is: having been injured and claim accepted and being referred to health services, is there evidence that in engaging with the health and rehabilitation system they are then somehow discriminated against or treated differently from other population groups?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003EAgain, the research from the University of Otago\u2014the Ng\u0101i Tahu M\u0101ori Research Unit there\u2014said that, actually, that wasn\u2019t the case; that, actually, M\u0101ori are being treated in the same way and at the same rate as non-M\u0101ori. So there are serious questions about the case for this even being necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d305ece30c574f60ae168c865c00ee2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d305ece30c574f60ae168c865c00ee2e\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E Just in response to the member\u2019s contribution, as the Minister of Forestry, I can say that, yes, it is a predominantly M\u0101ori workforce with, yes, a high rate of injury, while I can also, sadly, acknowledge a high rate of death amongst M\u0101ori in that particular industry. It is a tough industry, and even before my time as the Minister of Forestry, I was a trustee of a M\u0101ori land forestry block in the Far North, and the reporting to us on the numbers of injuries and serious injuries\u2014which was, of course, graded on a scale\u2014was actually quite mind-blowing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWhat we know is\u2014and the member referred to it in Wai 2575. I\u2019m glad he did a bit of research over the dinner break, because what we know is that for those who access ACC, it\u2019s predominantly through a medical referral. So, if we are to use the basis of the discussion that the member is referring to there, then already, clearly, the evidence made in the health sector is quite clear that those referrals that are made through the health sector generally don\u2019t mean better outcomes for M\u0101ori. We\u2019ve got to explore why that is, whether it\u2019s accessibility, or whether it\u2019s the inability in places like remote areas to even receive the kinds of rehabilitation services that they might need. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ENow, all I can sense in the member\u2019s contribution is a fear of doing what\u2019s right, and why I say that is because what the member is offering is the status quo: letters of expectation\u2014making sure that we can continue to gather the same data. Well, ACC have made it clear that in order for us to understand these issues moving forward, we must have a greater set of data. What this bill does is make it enduring across a period of time in order to get quality data and to allow that expert analysis of that data to make sure that the accident compensation (AC) scheme serves the people of New Zealand, and that\u2019s one of the other matters that we\u2019re doing in this particular amendment. It is making sure and making it clear that we want the AC scheme to serve the people of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022c82c2c36973e478db54197fa82590dfb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c82c2c36973e478db54197fa82590dfb\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Chief Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00222edebba862e44463af8c29239e6fb18f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222edebba862e44463af8c29239e6fb18f\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. Is it annoying when politicians ask themselves questions and then answer them? Yes. Is it something I usually do? No. But am I going to do it tonight? Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a short contribution, but I think it\u2019s worth teasing out what it is that we\u2019re actually doing here tonight. First, we ask ourselves \u201CIs ACC a good system?\u201D Yes. Is it a perfect system? No. Are decisions that inform policy important to ensure that the system is improved going forward? Again, yes. Is data important to inform those policy decisions? Yes. Are population groups part of the picture of understanding how the ACC system can be more responsive to New Zealanders\u2019 needs? Yes, at least some of the time. But is it also possible that there are other ways that we can understand what\u2019s needed for ACC to be a more responsive system? Yes. Is this question and answer format getting really annoying? It is, so I\u2019ll desist at this point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EExcept to say, finally, the question that we should ask ourselves is: is this actually necessary to do the things that the Minister for ACC is saying? The things that he is saying are good\u2014because, of course, ACC should serve all New Zealanders, and, yes, including M\u0101ori populations and other population groups. But, actually, you don\u2019t need to have in primary legislation a thing that should be the result of basic leadership, culture, and decision making in the corporation\u2014and, dare I say it, by the ACC Minister. I mean, are we seriously to understand that there are things that it would be good for the corporation to do that are not specified exactly in legislation\u2014that we\u2019re going to have a new bill every time there\u2019s one of those? It just seems extraordinary to me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EBy way of example\u2014and I know that this will mean something to the Minister because he was recently also defence Minister\u2014soldiers have been complaining for many years about repetitive-type injuries, whether it\u2019s knees or backs, carrying heavy loads\u2014the Minister is aware of the issue, and I thank him for acknowledging that\u2014or hearing from discharging firearms, ears, themselves, obviously. These are questions that I think the ACC system should really respond to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EFirefighters are another classic case. Of course it would be remiss if I didn\u2019t acknowledge the courage and the dedication of those fine members of New Zealand society, particularly on today, following the horrific tragedy across town in Wellington.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo there are groups who wouldn\u2019t necessarily be described as population groups but who, nevertheless, by reason of their occupational activity, are particularly vulnerable. As far as I can tell, additional research into those groups\u2014firefighters, soldiers, or other high-risk occupations\u2014is not included in this legislation. But I really hope that\u2019s not the case, and the Minister can confirm that there\u2019s nothing to stop such research taking place, by reason of the fact that it\u2019s not in this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo my colleague and friend Penny Simmonds has expressed this more eloquently than I did the other day; I used the example of elephants hiding in cherry trees, and explained it according to that old joke that you don\u2019t know that they\u2019re there and therefore they\u2019ve either got a great disguise or they\u2019re not there in the first place. Although, when Ms Simmonds said there was a problem with the missing mail, I didn\u2019t know that she meant m-a-i-l, and I wondered if a missing male might be what she describes as what happens when you ask someone to do a chore around the house! But anyway, that\u2019s obviously not what she meant, so I will exercise my privilege against self-incrimination; I won\u2019t go any further. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo, anyway, just to that basic point, and I know it\u2019s been made before but just, really, to sort of emphasise that there are vulnerable groups who would actually benefit from research, who aren\u2019t necessarily defined as population groups, M\u0101ori or otherwise, in this bill. I really hope it\u2019s the case that they\u2019re not going to be precluded from the possibility that ACC be improved for their benefit as well, simply because it\u2019s not in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b5bce9eed27b4b828438f19b94688b8d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b5bce9eed27b4b828438f19b94688b8d\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member and I do want to acknowledge the example he uses. As the former Minister of Defence, he\u2019s right: I\u2019ve spoken to a number of soldiers who continue to carry injuries or have been rehabilitated through injury in order to serve our country, and I want to acknowledge that. And the answer to his question, in short, is no it doesn\u2019t exclude them. I think the opportunity here\u2014and I made clear in the session before dinner\u2014for M\u0101ori is because we as a Government feel there\u2019s an obligation for us to do that because of Te Tiriti o Waitangi. With respect to the classification of \u201Cother\u201D in this, it will be up to ACC to continue to explore that as data comes in or submissions. As the member has rightly pointed out, it might become more apparent that, actually, it does need to start looking into these factors a bit more deeper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022665e1a5f16a34a0eb38cfae2edc16916\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022665e1a5f16a34a0eb38cfae2edc16916\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Chief Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00226f65ba5e410e4383a45bf9dde59fb356\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f65ba5e410e4383a45bf9dde59fb356\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Parts 1 and 2, the Schedule, and clauses 1 to 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224e4b9df320fb43858b2c3abe2258704e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Parts 1 and 2, the Schedule, and clauses 1 to 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EParts 1 and 2, the Schedule, and clauses 1 to 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000587\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u002298df1dd579a04712bc6c534a269e2eae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298df1dd579a04712bc6c534a269e2eae\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Mr Chair, I believe we were only putting that the question be put. Mr Utikere moved that the question be put, so you then move the motion that the question is that the question be now put, so that\u2019s what we\u2019re voting on, rather than the actual bill itself\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00227ab6b45d50e64833af7f7744274adb84\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ab6b45d50e64833af7f7744274adb84\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: No, you are correct. I was getting ahead of myself there. So I didn\u2019t actually put the question that the question be put, so I actually do need to\u2014I did call that the question, that Parts 1 and 2 and the Schedule, be actually\u2014so no, sorry, I correct my self-correction. I did actually get that right. But thank you for putting me to that test there, Mr van de Molen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002250a01fc38d924a0c947e879395dd8497\u0022\u003EGrocery Industry Competition Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a0c6a61eddb14e8fb4225a3109c52859\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224e3cc2e19a324d5caa04c26f41b32ca7\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary Provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00226e347a6d11ca425cbf4c2ef08d7d49d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e347a6d11ca425cbf4c2ef08d7d49d9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to the Grocery Industry Competition Bill. We come first to Part 1. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022ddb8e80afd274b36833d9a570f005349\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ddb8e80afd274b36833d9a570f005349\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Chief Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for all provisions to be taken as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00221394c35d5b19438cb827e6bdd4ecc154\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221394c35d5b19438cb827e6bdd4ecc154\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002215aac5dbaa2c4a2f88500d1ded37c039\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215aac5dbaa2c4a2f88500d1ded37c039\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. It\u2019s with great pleasure that I stand here today in this committee for the Grocery Industry Competition Bill. I must say, this is an important bill for the whole of New Zealand and for this Government at this time when the cost of living is front of mind. And I do want to thank the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee for considering the bill, and everyone who made a submission on the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThis bill is really about benefiting consumers at the checkout by improving competition in the grocery industry. Everyday New Zealanders are paying more for their normal weekly shop, and are being squeezed in the wallet as the largest expenses\u2014things like housing and transport\u2014are also rising significantly. Consumers have moved beyond skipping luxuries at the checkout and are straining just to buy the necessaries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThis Government is committed to making a grocery sector where grocery retailers have to give a fair deal both to consumers and to suppliers. We want a grocery industry that\u2019s innovative and provides consumers with clever ways of shopping that save time and effort. And we want a grocery industry where suppliers have more grocery retailers that are interested in stocking their products and selling them to consumers. Thanks to the changes this Government has already made, and signalled it will make, we\u2019re already seeing confidence in other players like The Warehouse investing in the grocery range and providing different offerings, and other newer internet providers trying to do things a little bit differently. I encourage new entrants to the market and encourage innovation; just different offerings so that families have choices and can help their families eat well and properly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThis bill addresses the outstanding recommendations\u2014they are outstanding recommendations\u2014made by the Commerce Commission\u2019s 2022 study. Overall, the Grocery Industry Competition Bill will regulate the grocery industry to benefit consumers by providing a platform for retailers to enter and expand in the grocery industry and to compete directly with the existing duopoly. The bill will create a grocery commissioner to monitor and regulate the industry and keep the New Zealand public informed of what is happening. The bill will impose new requirements on the duopoly to facilitate commercial agreements for wholesale supply of groceries to other grocery retailers on the same advantageous terms they give their own supermarkets. And the bill will provide a flexible tool kit as a grocery supply backstop to allow the commission or the Government to impose additional regulation if improvement is needed. The bill will provide new protections to suppliers, such as a grocery supply code, to limit the ability of the duopoly to pressure suppliers into accepting contracts that are wholly one-sided. The bill also paves the way for a dispute resolution scheme to provide timely and cost-effective resolution of any issues for suppliers and wholesale customers of Foodstuffs or Woolworths. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe select committee unanimously reported this bill back to the House; that\u2019s very gratifying. It recommended some amendments which this House accepts. The committee made some excellent adjustments\u2014improvements to the bill\u2014especially in the wholesale supplier space and in the supplier space with a grocery supply code. These have balanced the views of the suppliers, Foodstuffs, Woolworths, and prospective wholesale customers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll speak later about the Supplementary Order Paper that I have introduced. The Supplementary Order Paper makes four main changes to the bill as well as some editorial changes. These four changes relate to the grocery supply code, the dispute resolution scheme, the commission\u2019s monitoring function, and the treatment of what are called \u201Cancillary services\u201D in the wholesale supply regime. Generally, my changes are consistent with the select committee\u2019s intent, and in some places I needed to give effect to that intent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI\u2019m pleased to put the bill over to this committee of the whole House for wider discussion. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5d68906c8954b4a84ab1203230e4a2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5d68906c8954b4a84ab1203230e4a2e\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just acknowledge the Minister\u2019s comments. I just think it\u2019s worthwhile\u2014this is obviously a very important bill, because getting better outcomes for New Zealanders when they go to buy their food and grocery items from the supermarket is really important. That\u2019s why there is agreement across the House to make changes to this bill, with a view to trying to improve it, although there are some elements of the bill that there\u2019s not absolute unanimous support on. None the less, I think what\u2019s been achieved with the bill will go some way to trying to address some of the deficiencies that have been occurring in the industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI think one of the things I\u2019m just quite keen to get the Minister\u2019s view on is particularly around the commission\u2019s functions in this Act\u2014well, it will become an Act once the bill\u2019s passed, of course, but particularly with regard to clause 4(2), which is a whole stack of new arrangements or functions, objectives, that were put for the commission: \u201Cunderstanding the current and emerging (or likely future) trends or issues in \u2026 the grocery industry \u2026 promoting transparency \u2026 supporting participants to understand and comply with [industry] regulation \u2026 contributing to a trading environment in which businesses compete effectively and consumers and businesses participate confidently \u2026 [and] improving awareness\u201D. So just nice to hear what the overarching view of the Minister is around those particular ones, whether he thought there were others that we should be dealing with, and where he perceives there might be deficiencies in the bill that may need to be addressed in time, or, in fact, further improvements of the Act once it comes into play.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u00228aee4fa3205440caa249486c8d4196a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228aee4fa3205440caa249486c8d4196a3\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I actually echo my colleague Andrew Bayly\u2019s thanks to the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs for laying out his vision. My question to the Minister is, I guess, in clause 3, in the purpose statement: \u201CThe purpose of this Act is to promote competition and efficiency in the grocery industry for the long-term benefit of consumers in New Zealand.\u201D I mean, that is a lofty goal and I think it\u2019s something that we should all aim for. But when you consider the fact that this basically gives powers to the Commerce Commission to monitor competition and efficiency in the grocery industry, how quickly he actually believes this will have an impact for the benefit of the consumers, considering the fact that there is a cost of living crisis at the moment. Every day when our families go to the supermarket and try and fill their trolleys\u2014well, actually, they can\u2019t fill their trolleys because it is so expensive and grocery costs have gone extraordinarily high. Food prices, even when you stick to food that is in season\u2014for example, the vegetables and fruit, you buy it in season\u2014it\u2019s supposed to be cheaper, but the cost of grocery shopping is astronomically high. I often hear from constituents how expensive it is, and how quickly does the Minister think that this bill will have an impact on the cost of doing our groceries and shopping to promote the so-called competition? How quickly will that have an impact on daily shopping?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00229644c5d8005d424db1983dc3c0fef99a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229644c5d8005d424db1983dc3c0fef99a\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Oh good\u2014I\u2019m just waiting for the Minister the Hon Dr Duncan Webb to gather his thoughts. But, related to what my colleague Melissa Lee has just been talking about, I suppose the overriding concern from market participants\u2014and, ultimately, consumers\u2014is what certainty or assurance the Minister can give that the Commerce Commission will have the proper skills and expertise to actually do the number of express purposes set out in clause 4, and more generally in clause 3, to ensure that best market behaviours are put in place and that adverse market behaviours do not occur and are stopped if they occur.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo my question is about the resourcing and the appointment of a commissioner. What assurance can the Minister provide as to making sure that the commission appoints the right commissioner\u2014and, obviously, the supporting staff that will underpin that function? We know that function is estimated to cost between $10 million and $12 million a year, and so, without a proper and well-experienced commissioner, a lot of these reforms will be academic in nature\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00229ed0178b1711445680491aeefe5718c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ed0178b1711445680491aeefe5718c9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I\u2019m just going to pull the member back a bit. I\u2019ve just been having a quick look at the bill, and the appointment of a grocery commissioner, in my reading, comes under Part 5. I\u2019m very happy for the member to reference the Grocery Commissioner, but the member has Part 5 to be more fulsome around the Grocery Commissioner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022 data-id=\u0022e04d9f331c014ae58bf00cd16174813b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e04d9f331c014ae58bf00cd16174813b\u0022\u003EDAMIEN SMITH (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. To the Minister, just around Part 1, clause 3, \u201CPurpose\u201D, which has the definition of promoting \u201Ccompetition and efficiency in the grocery industry for the long-term benefit of the consumers in New Zealand.\u201D, how does he see the day when this market is operating well, and what are the criteria around the purpose of this bill to actually guarantee that the market is fully functional and is being competitive? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00224ff6d50a8aed48da8a663cb7f3927a5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ff6d50a8aed48da8a663cb7f3927a5c\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. In respect of Mr Bayly\u2019s first comment relating to clause 4(2), the monitoring and reporting function of the commission is actually a critical part of this bill because we know that information really is power in this kind of situation. We absolutely want to make sure that that information is properly gathered and that it is gathered in a fulsome way, and then, of course, important to that is its analysis and provision to the public so that there is transparency around exactly what\u2019s going on in the market, what profits are being made, and where they\u2019re being made. So I think that\u2019s a really important part of those objectives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EEqually, in supporting participants to comply with and understand industry regulation, that\u2019s also of course an important function of the commission. This bill does contain civil penalties, but by far and away the best way to get compliance is to encourage people to understand the regime and understand its detail of how to comply, and then what you\u2019ll get is a much better-functioning market. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThen, of course, we will get a functional market where people can compete effectively and can have confidence when they compete with each other that they\u2019re doing it on an even playing field. The member Melissa Lee asked how quickly. Good news: now. The fact that this bill is imminent and this legislation is going through the House has clearly influenced the market. We\u2019ve already seen the major grocery retailers open up their wholesale network to others. We\u2019ve seen competitors enter the market in anticipation of it becoming more competitive\u2014like Costco, Circle K, and, of course, The Warehouse is having a dabble around the edges as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EMr Bayly referred to the Grocery Commissioner, and when we get to the relevant part, I\u2019ll address those questions, unless, of course, the member would like to take the whole bill as one part. In terms of Mr Damien Smith\u2019s question, essentially I think the question from Mr Smith was how we will know when we see success. That is why we have the Commerce Commission, because the grocery sector is complex. We need a high degree of expertise to measure the market and determine whether it is acting competitively, and that doesn\u2019t just mean price competition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s great to see prices going down, and if you shop around, Melissa Lee\u2014and when you\u2019re filling your supermarket trolley, do shop around because that\u2019s the best way to effect competition. But it\u2019s also seeing good innovation, a good range of services, and a good range of products, and seeing them delivered to the consumer in a different way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, when that happens, that\u2019s when the Commerce Commission will be able to look and report, using those functions in clause 4 to come back to us and say, \u201CWe think we\u2019ve improved competition.\u201D But can I also add this: competition is something we will always be striving for, and it\u2019s an ongoing struggle to make sure markets remain competitive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022630a024d3b794d10a95a62717b760e79\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022630a024d3b794d10a95a62717b760e79\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for the response. I suppose the overarching consideration: can the Minister just give us assurance that the monitoring powers and the recommendation powers that are laid out in these early sections are similar to, or if not enhanced, when compared to other functions that the Commerce Commission currently undertakes, such as in respect of airports, fuel, and other such activities? So is this the functions and powers of being able to undertake inquiries\u2014there\u2019s a list of them here, reports, etc.\u2014are they exactly the same as the Commerce Commission has in other jurisdictions? That would be useful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe other thing is just moving on slightly around the issue of designated regulator grocery retailers. The issue around that, which relates back to all this, is how do we know when you\u2019re applying these powers that we have the right jurisdiction around who\u2019s to be covered by these aspects as they relate to the grocery trade going forward? Because one of the things about making sure, when you\u2019re looking at these powers, about understanding the current and emerging trends, you have to have regard to where future competition\u2019s going to come into play. So that just comes back to my reference around particularly clause 4(2)(a). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb04aef540b446ddaf68c661ccc7335a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb04aef540b446ddaf68c661ccc7335a\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I thank the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs for suggesting that things will actually start to get cheaper from now. But it is ironic that the examples that he actually gave, in terms of Costco and other competitors coming in, they actually began before this bill has come into force, so I think the competition has already begun before this bill. So I think using this bill as an example of actually creating more competition is rather an empty answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EI wonder if the Minister could look at the role of the Commerce Commission in Part 1, clause 4(2)(d), I think, it was. It, basically, talks about the Commerce \u201CCommission\u2019s objective in performing its monitoring and reporting functions under this Act is to promote the purpose of this Act, including by \u2026 (d) contributing to a trading environment in which businesses compete effectively and consumers and businesses participate confidentially\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThe Minister talked about the best way for someone to actually try and get cheaper groceries is, potentially, looking around. Having said that, I think everyone does nowadays, considering how expensive it is\u2014whether it\u2019s Countdown, New World, Pak \u2019N Save, Costco, or even the local markets in our communities. But it is so very expensive. So the question that I actually ask is: how will this promote that? I\u2019m not so sure if the Minister actually answered that. Providing wholesale supply to other competitors is one way, but I\u2019m not quite sure that it has immediate effect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThe question that I would like to ask is in terms of the trading environment and promoting competition effectively, in terms of the Commerce Commission being triggered when there actually is a complaint about a bad activity. Before someone complains about it, how will those bad behaviours be brought in line? So it\u2019s based on somebody complaining. So whatever we\u2019re doing here, yes, that\u2019s usually the case, but immediately it has no impact or effect on consumers who are literally crying out for cheaper products at our supermarkets. I\u2019m not so sure if it is actually quite the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2e1aef607bd460db32d081d76af8fc2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2e1aef607bd460db32d081d76af8fc2\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. This is a debate on the preliminary provisions at the moment, so it\u2019s not appropriate for me to get into the detail of the substantive matters raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIn terms of clause 4(2), which both members identified, they\u2019re the objectives of the commission. The further provisions are how those are achieved, and it\u2019s appropriate to debate those when we examine them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIn terms of designation, which was Mr Bayly\u2019s other point, that isn\u2019t in Part 1 either.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIt clearly is appropriate for the commission to have the objective, as Melissa Lee identified, to contribute to a trading environment in which businesses compete effectively, and consumers and businesses participate confidently. If the member wants to debate whether that\u2019s a good objective or not, I\u2019m happy to do so, but I would be surprised if she thought otherwise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESimilarly, Mr Bayly referred to, I think it was, clause 4(2)(b) \u201Cpromoting transparency\u201D, that also is an excellent objective. I\u2019d be surprised if he were to debate that that wasn\u2019t the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EBut the time for debating the substance of the issues is when we get to the substantive parts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u002247b9f5e8388f48659ff0c806ac4fca9f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247b9f5e8388f48659ff0c806ac4fca9f\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair\u2014only a short contribution from me. I was just interested in the Minister\u2019s statutory interpretation skills. I know that\u2019s something he\u2019ll be interested in engaging with me on. The definition of \u201Cgroceries\u201D, within clause 5 of Part 1, lists among other product categories \u201Cnon-alcoholic drinks\u201D. I wonder if the Minister can just confirm that alcoholic drinks are deliberately and specifically excluded, and I wonder if, given the misleading name, the item known as Pub Mix from Costco would be included or not, noticing that it seems alcohol isn\u2019t included in that. And the other one\u2014while I\u2019m on my feet\u2014I notice, also within the definition of groceries product categories, there\u2019s \u201Cmeat, seafood, or meat-substitutes\u201D, and I just wonder if seafood substitutes would be included as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1c8aad5f12e471f8c4e04b81ee0b375\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1c8aad5f12e471f8c4e04b81ee0b375\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m not familiar with the products sold by Costco, so I can\u2019t address that, but alcohol is explicitly excluded. One of the things this Government certainly does not want\u2014and I hope other members will agree\u2014is to have price competition around alcohol and have a drive for people to find where they can get their cheapest drink. So that was explicitly excluded. It is, however, noted that if alcohol is being used in an anti-competitive way, perhaps to draw consumers in, it can be captured as part of the information study done by the Commerce Commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022 data-id=\u0022497555b89c4047a781524d12d890758f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022497555b89c4047a781524d12d890758f\u0022\u003EDAMIEN SMITH (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I\u2019d like to invite the Minister to Costco with me and we can have a look around. Just on Part 1, clause 4(2)(d), which he mentioned, which I think is very appropriate contributing to trading environments, it seems to be that the current strategy is to just get existing box shops to add on extensions of their business models. But does the Minister believe that this function of the commission actually looks at innovation and allows new entrants to bring new business models to New Zealand, which is packaged up with overseas investment sanction and local regulatory fast-track approvals? So I guess the question is, if they are comparing to a trading environment, if we want to bring in a Lidl here and they want to have two big stores and everything\u2019s ordered over the internet and it drops off at your house and it\u2019s all in different boxes, does that get covered in that clause?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9ca1c3548ed4be996852d507e719d01\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9ca1c3548ed4be996852d507e719d01\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to turn to clause 4(1)(f). I know the Commerce Commission had a view that it shouldn\u2019t be involved in making or providing advice on policy, and that\u2019s why the word \u201Cpolicies\u201D has been struck out twice in that subclause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ENone the less, I just want to get to the Minister\u2019s understanding of what might happen. Because in practice, what\u2019s going to happen is, hopefully, we\u2019ll end up with a very experienced Grocery Commissioner who understands what current practices and trends are, and that that may be an evolving process over time. But as a result of that, obviously there\u2019ll be a lot of learnt experience that the commissioner will hold as a result of that experience.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EWhat I\u2019m seeking from the Minister is: what might be his understanding, whilst we obviously don\u2019t want the Commerce Commission to be determining policy\u2014to what extent would the Minister engage with the Commerce Commission when considering new policies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBecause otherwise it might run the risk of coming up with policies that are divorced from reality\u2014and current reality or likely reality\u2014and I think my question is: does he see a role of the Commerce Commission providing some input on policy, albeit not being the primary driver of that development of new policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00222b0cd2ae934e4c87b37fa634292e0a15\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b0cd2ae934e4c87b37fa634292e0a15\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m very happy to go shopping with Damien Smith; I think that would be a fun outing. In terms of what I think was the thrust of his question, which is: what about overseas investment coming into New Zealand\u2014what barriers there are. My view is\u2014and it\u2019s certainly the intention of this legislation to make it a more attractive place. What we can say is that for the past long time, there have not been overseas entrants into the grocery sector. So this change will be a change for the better there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIn terms of any amendment to the Overseas Investment Act, that wasn\u2019t considered necessary. There is a balance to be struck. Supermarkets are important parts of our infrastructure, as recent disasters in the East Coast have shown us, and making sure that we have a responsible owner of a supermarket chain would be an important question. So that\u2019s why the Overseas Investment Act still remains important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIn terms of Mr Bayly\u2019s point, which relates to the function of the commission and keeping the law in practice under review, clearly there is a relationship that any Minister in a role like I\u2019m currently holding has in engaging with the commission. And the commission has a huge amount of expertise in terms of how law hits the ground, so to speak, and what effects it has and whether it\u2019s effective. It also has a huge amount of expertise in the practice of competition and in implementing competition policy overseas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EObviously those things inform the policy discussion because whether something can or can\u2019t be effectively implemented is an important part of that discussion, and they will have expertise in that. But clearly the question of policy is a question for the Government of the day, and that\u2019s why that really doesn\u2019t appear in that situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022 data-id=\u00227e2a691c1d38477e9ca4344bfd9c4bfa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e2a691c1d38477e9ca4344bfd9c4bfa\u0022\u003EDAMIEN SMITH (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Just back to clause 4(2)(d), one of the things that we found out is that one of the levers for actually reducing prices is to put some pressure on the big brands that are in stores, which are stocked reasonably lazily by the duopoly to actually offer the customer better value. One of the things that is missing, I think, from this is the duopolies also searching for product development and new products to provide price competition. Has the Minister thought about how\u2014I\u2019ll use soap powder as an example\u2014if a New Zealand manufacturer wants to get involved with that game, that there\u2019s a free and open market to do that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b5b7d16d01e945f9a75a628790e4df11\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b5b7d16d01e945f9a75a628790e4df11\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 1 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 353 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223748f71ddb134e6abae42444f47b2eae\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 106\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; New Zealand National 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000641\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222e9c903700ac438e9ab40952829f62be\u0022\u003EPart 2  Grocery supply code\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022562f7a21094a4b9a9d7c4f9712f2b73b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022562f7a21094a4b9a9d7c4f9712f2b73b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 2. This is the debate on clauses 8 to 16, which is the grocery supply code. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd56685226d046659262b236741868b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd56685226d046659262b236741868b3\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Obviously this part contains quite important elements. I suppose the first thing, when you read through the different elements, particularly clause 10, and then you go into the grocery supply code, it always requires the Minister to have final sign-off. And I suppose the question is: why did the Government go down the route of politicising the operation of this bill, or this Act as it will be, by involving the Minister extensively in some of the decision making, particularly, for instance, when you come to things like determining whether or not a company should be designated a regulated grocery retailer? Why was it felt necessary that that type of decision should come to a Minister as opposed to leaving it to the Commerce Commission, who are not only experts in the sense of monitoring and overseeing that but obviously are used to making those types of decisions? And it\u2019s sort of a fundamental call because there\u2019s a lot of ministerial oversight and involvement in this bill, and I just want to understand why the Government thought that was the best approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022bfea238f35624c09b27388c8ca4572a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bfea238f35624c09b27388c8ca4572a1\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I will quickly answer that. Look, there is a role for parliamentary oversight in such matters. Designation is a significant step. It\u2019s drawing a supermarket into the regulatory net or a grocery retailer into the regulatory net. And obviously the position of the Commerce Commission is of the utmost importance in that as the expert. And a Minister who chose not to follow that advice would have to have very good reasons for doing so and be prepared to defend that in a public forum such as this House. However, it is, effectively, an extension of the legislation, and I think ministerial responsibility for such an extension is constitutionally appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022987d09d836b54af09dcd68638eb40c87\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022987d09d836b54af09dcd68638eb40c87\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Minister. I think that sort of partially answered the question, but I suppose my nuance is that there are times when ministerial oversight should be involved in these types of decisions, and there are also other times when it shouldn\u2019t be. For instance, the Overseas Investment Office decision-making around investment coming into New Zealand has been a vexed issue in terms of whether, in fact, it\u2019s best undertaken by politicians\u2014Ministers\u2014or whether, in fact, it should lie with officials. So I suppose my question is more that there will be times when it should come to Ministers, but, in this case, this particular bill requires a lot of ministerial oversight and approval, and that was the question that I was aiming at. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe second thing I just wanted to move on to is this definition in clause 11(3) about when a business should be designated a regulated grocery retailer. Clearly, there\u2019s one test, which is the turnover test\u2014an absolute test\u2014which says that if in a financial period the turnover of that business is more than $750 million, then automatically a grocery operator would become regulated. But then there are these other ones, in clause 11(3)(b)(ii): \u201Cthe designation of A as a regulated grocery retailer would be likely to promote competitive neutrality\u201D. So I\u2019d quite like to hear what the Minister understands \u201Cpromote competitive neutrality\u201D to be. It does use the term \u201Ca level playing field\u201D in the bill, but what does that mean? Does that mean, actually, now that you have a level playing field by the mere threat of, for instance, Costco coming in? Would it promote competitive neutrality? It doesn\u2019t actually achieve it yet and it may not, but what is that term and when is competitive neutrality achieved\u2014at what point does that occur? It goes on to say \u201Cotherwise promote competition\u201D, but I\u2019ll let the Minister just deal with that one, and then I\u2019ve got a couple more on that same point. But what do you mean by that, Minister? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022e220f43eea0248b484809cb041281358\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e220f43eea0248b484809cb041281358\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Obviously, it\u2019s important, and I imagine that the brightline of $750 million in turnover would be far and away the most likely way in which a grocery retailer would be designated. However, there is a scenario in which someone is operating in a way which is undermining competition, even though they might not hit that threshold, and whilst we may not immediately be able to imagine what that is, the possibility is there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe idea of competitive neutrality, as I understand it, is simply that if you try to avoid the kind of pure economics of perfect competition\u2014because we know that that\u2019s an impossibility in a real market\u2014competitive neutrality is where we approach that in the real world and where there\u2019s no particular intervention which will improve competition. So where we have equal players, players of roughly equal force, competing equally, we\u2019re going to have a competitively neutral\u2014it\u2019s not an anti-competitive market; it\u2019s neutrally competitive. Any step\u2014and this is the whole thesis of this bill\u2014is to move towards a situation where we have a market where no one has particular market power over another party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1201e04db884105a79e35dac675eaa7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1201e04db884105a79e35dac675eaa7\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Minister. I\u2019m not quite persuaded by what you\u2019ve just said there. I look at the three subparagraphs of clause 11(3)(b)\u2014at one end of the spectrum, you\u2019ve got an absolute test that says, if you hit $750 million, you\u2019re automatically in the regulator conditions. The third subparagraph of that subclause (3)(b) says that if you are acting in a way that has \u201Cthe purpose, effect, or likely effect of unduly hindering or obstructing suppliers from participating\u201D, that is obviously a way to bring them into regulation. I understand why you might want to do that, because we don\u2019t want people who are acting adversely and affecting the market and leading to higher prices potentially. So that\u2019s why you\u2019d want to capture the two ends of the spectrum. One is size; one is bad behaviour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBut the middle bit\u2014subparagraph (ii)\u2014is about promoting competitive neutrality. I saw it the other way, actually. It\u2019s interesting how the Minister spoke of it in a negative sense. I saw it as: if they were promoting and achieving or were likely to achieve competitive neutrality, then, under this subparagraph (ii), that was a potential for that entity to be regulated. So I just want to get clarity around that. What side of the coin is that subparagraph (ii)? And I\u2019d just say to the Minister that it\u2019s not necessarily that a business may disrupt the market because of size. For instance, there is a company currently operating an online platform, right? And disruptive market forces have a major impact, and can have a major impact. If that were to occur, would you see this as, under subparagraph (ii), being a reason why they might be regulated? If they were a major disruptive cause to the market, even if it brought beneficial benefits to consumers, would that subclause mean that they potentially could be regulated?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u00220a4614494fb34c05ab992d8b1b08a58c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a4614494fb34c05ab992d8b1b08a58c\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Hopefully I\u2019m not throwing the Minister out of sequence in the way that he actually has to think about answers, but I wanted to go to clause 14A, \u201CGrocery supply code may extend to related parties of regulated grocery retailers\u201D. My thinking is that, often, grocery retailers\u2014whether it\u2019s actually Countdown or New World\u2014have suppliers who supply them goods, and they have specific, let\u2019s say, vegetable growers who have a particular contract with one particular supplier. They may not wish for their produce to be shared with other grocery retailers\u2014and I can\u2019t remember if we dealt with that specifically in the select committee. If that actually occurs, are they in fact going to be pinged according to this? That is something that has been playing in my head. And I think, when growers and retailers actually have an agreement to sell their produce at, you know, whatever, are we actually imposing on the contract they already have with the grower, in order to achieve the outcome of this bill? That\u2019s the question that I have for the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00228ea9b9911a624f80b579cf92c652a5e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ea9b9911a624f80b579cf92c652a5e3\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. The concept of related party is set out in the Act, and in clause 14A(4) there you\u2019ll see it\u2019s an associated person, which is in turn defined in subclause (2) of the interpretation clause and wouldn\u2019t capture your supplier. Then you\u2019ve got paragraph (b) in subclause (4) there: \u201Ca person over whose business the regulated grocery retailer has material influence.\u201D Obviously, that\u2019s not a brightline rule, but I\u2019d be very surprised if you would say that the regulated grocery retailer has material influence over a supplier in the way intended there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIn terms of Mr Bayly\u2019s sort of second crack at competitive neutrality\u2014and he talked of a disrupter\u2014I\u2019d be very surprised whether a disrupter was subject to designation when its behaviour was in fact improving the competitiveness. I guess one of the level playing field points is that it could conceivably be the situation where you have a company with a turnover in groceries of less than $750 million but they are in fact making profits which are super-profits because they\u2019re not subject to designation, and so their perhaps larger competitors might almost justifiably complain that the smaller entrant to the market has in fact got a benefit by falling just outside of the regulatory regime. That would in fact be anti-competitive, because that party, because of their non-designation, could be doing things differently from someone just a little bit bigger than them. So it gives that ability to look not only at this brightline threshold but also at the market in real time as it is being conducted and saying, \u201CWell, if we\u2019re going to make it competitive, we need to draw that particular player in to make sure all participants are being treated equally and fairly.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee84f4e96a1c401f9a3efbb3157969b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee84f4e96a1c401f9a3efbb3157969b3\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I\u2019d like to move to clause 16, \u201CCommission must review and report on grocery supply code\u201D, I think there is broad acknowledgment\u2014including submissions to the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee\u2014of the support for the role of the Commerce Commission. This specific clause refers to the reviews that the commission must undertake in order to provide back to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EMy questions for the Minister are as follows: clause 16(1)(a) refers to a period of two years. So the first review that the commissioner undertakes is after a two-year period, and I\u2019d like the Minister to provide some context around how that specific period was determined, taking into account the fact that this is quite a significant change to the nature of change and the speed of change of this industry, and whether two years is potentially too long in the context of being able to get some initial feedback in order for potential remediation from that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EAnd, subsequent to that, if you look at clause 16(2A), the ongoing interval for reviews is then set at five years. I guess, again, the conversation\u2014and while the commissioner is going to have responsibility and obligations in terms of taking actions and remedial actions\u2014and the integration with the viewpoint of the Minister; every five years\u2014and, again, in an industry where, well, you just think about the technology changes that occur over that period. Again, what is the rationale around that period of time? And is the Minister confident that reporting on that level of cycle is going to provide the frequency of review that will enable sensible changes to be reflected back, in regards to that grocery supply code?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u002208974ba285514ce4848a205e6e8b3924\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208974ba285514ce4848a205e6e8b3924\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E I was just giving pause to see whether the Minister was going to respond, but OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263ec0d112b8d4632b677cc188c02543d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: You either want the call or you want the call, right?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267a8f65c465c48e19543c2a68c9eaf0a\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: I was just offering the opportunity for the Minister to respond; no doubt, he will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI suppose the very good comment from my colleague Mr Watts very much related to that: how does he envisage the grocery supply code to operate? Is it a living document? Or does he expect that what the Commerce Commission will present, ultimately, is a document that deals more at a principle level as opposed to trying to deal with specific market practices? If it\u2019s the former, then how does the commission react to changing market practices, such as whether a duty is placed on supply arrangements that a supermarket might impose on a supplier, or how they price their arrangements in the supermarket, whether it\u2019s at the top of the shelf or at the bottom of the shelf, or whether it might be a marketing fee. How does the Minister expect the Commerce Commission to reflect those ongoing changes in market behaviour as they occur? Is that outside the code or is it going to be part of the code? So I\u2019m just going to stop there, and, hopefully, the Minister might take the opportunity to talk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002271309ad1a38d4f9e8222470f179410d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271309ad1a38d4f9e8222470f179410d3\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. In respect of Mr Watts\u2019 question, obviously the market study, which precipitated this legislation, itself took some time, and then, of course, it\u2019s taken some time to get to this point. So two years seems to be a reasonable period of time to gather data, analyse it, and provide a review of the grocery supply code. Similarly, five years is a very common legislative cycle. I do note that clause 16 does provide that the commission may review the code at any time. So I think that\u2019s important as well, that if information comes to hand, or markets behave in a particular way which need some kind of addressing, that can be done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIn respect of Mr Bayly and the code, I think it is important to note that it will be the Government that issues the first code, so that will set the tone. However, it\u2019s really important to recognise, I think, that it is a living document\u2014to use your words, Mr Bayly\u2014and that if behaviours emerge, perhaps in response to the regime that\u2019s imposed, that need addressing, they can, essentially, be addressed by the Commerce Commission, who will have custodianship of this code, making determinations through its own process as set out in the legislation. Whether it\u2019s a high-level code or a down-in-the-weeds regulation, my hope is that it starts out as a high-level code, and my hope is that it stays there because it gives the guidance necessary. But I would expect that if that doesn\u2019t work, the Commerce Commission will do the work to make rules of a more detailed nature if needed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8d1f0330a794fb9b7fb120e1e04620d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8d1f0330a794fb9b7fb120e1e04620d\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for that. First of all, I\u2019d just like you to, Minister, let me know specifically where it provides for the code to be updated at an earlier date other than the two and five years specified in clause 14\u2014that would be useful. Sorry, I\u2019m just missing that reference. So that\u2019s the first point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI suppose the related point is: if the Commerce Commission does decide to update it, because it is a living document, what would be the trigger for the commission to do that? Does it just come to a view and then it makes a recommendation to the Minister that it needs to be updated? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe third point is\u2014and this was an earlier point I made about ministerial oversight\u2014that I find it slightly strange that the Minister has to sign off on a grocery supply code. Most commerce Ministers wouldn\u2019t know much about grocery specifics, and, particularly, a supply code. Again, my point\u2014and this is my earlier point\u2014is that there seems to be a lot of ministerial oversight in that. So those are three points there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI want to go back to clause 12, \u201CPower to make grocery supply code\u201D. Can the Minister confirm that the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) is preparing the first draft code? When he talked about how it is a Government code\u2014I think those were the words he just used\u2014is it MBIE doing the first draft and then the Commerce Commission doing subsequent drafts, or is it the Commerce Commission doing the initial draft? I\u2019ll leave it there\u2014that\u2019s enough\u2014and then I\u2019ll come back. I\u2019ve got some more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2c4719129ff44ee8b9886fa0df73b43\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2c4719129ff44ee8b9886fa0df73b43\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I did hear Mr Bayly say, \u201CThat\u2019s enough.\u201D; I tend to agree with him! This is about the code. The last question first: yes; it\u2019s by Order in Council, and that will be done by the responsible Minister, and the responsible department is the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment. So that\u2019s the answer there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIn respect of amendments, the review and the code amendments are two entirely separate things. So the review has its own special and separate cycle, and that\u2019s important\u2014that a thorough-going review occurs at the relevant intervals. But if a market behaviour emerges which clearly needs addressing, then the commission may make a determination to amend the code. The process for amending the code is set out in clause 12A of the bill there that talks about a draft determination and consultation and the relevant steps to be taken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u002253f0bb36076d41e6a9c9918ac36c11ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253f0bb36076d41e6a9c9918ac36c11ba\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. So I\u2019m just looking at\u2014I presume you were referencing clause 12(2)(a), is that correct, Minister? I presume that\u2019s what you\u2019re referring to, where the commission can change the code, as you just referenced (a)\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256a5a9ef6d414f35aa49272224d8b96a\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: 12A.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c830cc099a024617a071fa7fdb4cf337\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: 12? Clause 12(2)(a)?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f993edd763e4edf9f362951d2d75ec7\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: I was referring to clause 12A\u2014large \u201CA\u201D\u2014of the Supplementary Order Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224985d300cafa4b5cbe4e5515a1e04a9a\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, it was the Supplementary Order Paper; sorry. OK, fine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EJust on clause 12(4), which states, \u201CThe grocery supply code may apply to, and impose duties on,\u201D I presume that duty is not a financial duty but actually an obligation to change practices\u2014just to check that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EJust coming back to clause 13\u2014and my colleague Melissa Lee raised this point earlier\u2014one of the big things about the supply code is making sure that there\u2019s adequate arrangements in place to be fair and equitable between suppliers and the grocery retailers. And one of the big issues is transparency around pricing. I think it comes under the supply code, but one of the issues\u2014and Melissa Lee spoke about greengrocers, you know, vegetable crops, etc., and traditionally there\u2019s been a market for them in places like the fresh food markets in Auckland\u2014for instance, at Mount Wellington\u2014that operated for many, many years. And there\u2019ll be other parts around the country that operated, so there was always a very transparent pricing arrangement so people knew what the demand was and what the supply was and, ultimately, what the price was on particular days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EWith the move progressively towards suppliers being required to bid to supply supermarkets and the pricing and the lack of transparency around the volume being offered and the pricing that was ultimately accepted and bid by the suppliers, the only groups that have access to that information are the operators of that bidding framework, which is the regulated grocery retailers at the moment. Does the Minister expect that the supply code will deal with the issue about making sure there\u2019s greater transparency around when suppliers have to bid to supply the regulated grocery retailers, that there is transparency around the amount of volume bid and the final price and the price offered? So that\u2019s a very, very important point because if the grocery supply code doesn\u2019t deal with that, then the lack of transparency is a remaining issue in the industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002273ea9f36016d403ebdc9298392985b59\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273ea9f36016d403ebdc9298392985b59\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. The content of the supply code, other than its broadest of outlines, as already mentioned, isn\u2019t really an appropriate topic here. It\u2019s still being worked through. But if Mr Bayly has views on what the content of that code might be, I\u2019d be very happy to hear them in another forum.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022090f0f1d47ed4cbf99128c0d936b8027\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022090f0f1d47ed4cbf99128c0d936b8027\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 2 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 353 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022830804a054eb4df594aa73e54708768d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 106\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; New Zealand National 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000680\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d7433e6fc764411285a39129ec8b2f8e\u0022\u003EPart 3  Wholesale supply of groceries\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e802d29e7bf54ecb809d7331cf45b029\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e802d29e7bf54ecb809d7331cf45b029\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 3, and this is the debate on clauses 17 to 112, \u201CWholesale supply of groceries\u201D. The question is that Part 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u002255d8c59d53784c7c878a7f0398905b7e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255d8c59d53784c7c878a7f0398905b7e\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Earlier, when I was talking about the growers, whether it\u2019s actually green- or brown-potato growers\u2014I think this section probably is where it fits, because it is actually about the wholesale supply. I think that when my colleague Andrew Bayly talked about that particular\u2014actually, I think we were thinking similar things in that we actually want equitable ways that our suppliers could have their view and their produce marketed. As Andrew Bayly said\u2014I think it was Turners and Growers that you were actually thinking about a long time ago\u2014I remember going to Turners and Growers and actually putting hands up early in the morning to bid for those vegetables. They even had flowers there as well. But in terms of wholesale supply of groceries, I think what we want to see is a framework that provides transparency, and it actually says that in clause 18(2)(b)(i). We just want to make sure that the retailers will make decisions about price range, quantity, and frequency, in terms of conditions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThe question I actually had for the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs was that concerns were raised with me that sometimes growers don\u2019t necessarily want their produce to be sold at a particular retailer for whatever the reason. If they actually supply to an entity\u2014some of these grocery retailers are also wholesalers as well, and when they actually supply, they currently only wholesale to their own market. But if they\u2019re actually opened up so that they have to supply wholesale to other retailers, then they would have a problem with that. I think the question that I actually had earlier for the Minister fits into this section and I wonder if he could potentially address the concern of some of these growers who actually are brought into this scheme. But if they don\u2019t actually open up\u2014if their goods are not actually opened up to other people who are actually purchasing through the wholesale entity that they had a deal with, initially, to only supply to a particular market\u2014they could actually be in trouble.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022 data-id=\u0022429fa5bad25b499191b068c7a058ac8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022429fa5bad25b499191b068c7a058ac8e\u0022\u003EDAMIEN SMITH (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Minister, do you believe that forcing supermarkets to act as wholesale suppliers to their competitors\u2014would it discourage international food retailers from entering New Zealand, and, if not, why not? Is the Minister concerned that requiring supermarkets to act as wholesale suppliers to their competitors would encourage existing New Zealand retailers to raise their prices to cover losses they may incur as a result? Finally, in any socialist or capitalist country in the world, has the Minister or his advisers identified anything that shows that compulsory Government pricing is an effective tool of increasing competition?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002285f92c8fb1d94a818be75b8ce89a8fc6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002285f92c8fb1d94a818be75b8ce89a8fc6\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E To the Hon Melissa Lee, it is an interesting point as to whether a supplier can require that their products, whatever they be, should be permitted to only have been sold through particular outlets. If it\u2019s, you know, Nike or Lululemon, there\u2019s probably not too much concern, but when you have a duopoly for food, such\u2014I think they used to be called soulless agreements\u2014sole supply agreements are problematic because they tie up the market. So, in fact, the fact that a supplier, if they want to sell into Foodstuffs, might also find themselves appearing in The Warehouse might not be a perfect outcome for that supplier, but I think we need to hold front and centre that this is about having fair agreements both at the supplier end but, more importantly, at the consumer end. If that means that that\u2019s the outcome so that we get cheaper prices at the checkout, then that\u2019s what will happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EMr Damien Smith: will it discourage international investment? Well, I\u2019ll tell you what discourages international investment: the vertically integrated duopoly we\u2019ve got now. It\u2019s an absolutely impregnable market, and up until this Government commissioned this Commerce Commission market study, there was no movement whatsoever, and now we are seeing movement. What this does is it facilitates entry, so anyone can come to New Zealand or start up in New Zealand and, without having to have the barrier of standing up an entire supply chain, can be competitive. That\u2019s because of the strength of their market position through the vertical integration of logistics, supply chain, and retailing. In terms of compulsion, on prices, there\u2019s no compulsion in this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022 data-id=\u0022f40736c83c474ea99216122100d7b5ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f40736c83c474ea99216122100d7b5ef\u0022\u003EDAMIEN SMITH (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you. I know the Minister only shops at Moore Wilson\u2019s, and I do look forward to taking him to Costco. Actually, I\u2019ve courted Moore Wilson\u2019s as well, just assessing the competition myself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003EBut he didn\u2019t answer my question about whether the advisers and himself can show anywhere in the world where compulsory Government pricing is an effective tool in increasing competition\u2014the question of the night.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u00224e681c7d8a9f49e0ba3f68e81027d799\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e681c7d8a9f49e0ba3f68e81027d799\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s a very quick one in relation to the answer that the Minister gave. I\u2019m wondering if that changes if the supplier had a specific reason, like for religious purposes, that perhaps it was a halal issue or a cultural issue that they oppose a particular wholesaler to supply to other people for those particular reasons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022034a19755cea4fb7aa9940d8ebe37237\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022034a19755cea4fb7aa9940d8ebe37237\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I appreciate there\u2019s a little bit of competition on this side of the House this evening, isn\u2019t there? What a good sign. I do want to just compliment my colleague Melissa Lee for her last contribution. But, Minister, I\u2019m going to move to a different clause, if I may.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EYou\u2019ve just mentioned a number of aspects around your keenness to see more competition in the grocery market and more international players coming in from overseas to compete in this market. I\u2019m interested in your observations that one of the players within the duopoly\u2014Foodstuffs\u2014is 100 percent New Zealand - owned, owned by Kiwis, employs Kiwis, and, potentially, your policy of promoting overseas players that are going to come in from Europe and send their profits back overseas and not stay in New Zealand, for some, may be a slight issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI\u2019m interested in your balancing act around the fact of whether you think, actually, nope, that\u2019s all fair and dandy; as long as people get the lowest price at the checkout, then you\u2019re not really that bothered around what happens and what are those organisations that are participating in the market. So that\u2019s the first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe second question is in regards to clause 18(2)(a), which is in regards to \u201Cthe Commission may hold an inquiry \u2026 into whether the wholesale supply of groceries should be subject to additional regulation\u201D. Gilmours, I understand, is the wholesale entity under the Foodstuffs group. I guess what is being proposed here, and I\u2019m just wanting to get the Minister to articulate the practicality of what\u2019s being proposed, is that, in effect, Gilmours may be subject to a review and may be subject to additional regulation if they potentially, for some reason, don\u2019t supply one of these international grocery providers that comes into the market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EOne of the challenges, obviously, in the context of competition and low prices is that scale is a considerable factor, and, particularly in the New Zealand market, it is a small market. The reality is that subscale entities are going to potentially be more expensive. So the potential reality of trying to slice that up even more may actually lead to higher prices at the checkout, which doesn\u2019t necessarily correlate with the Minister\u2019s intent around what he is hopeful this will achieve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo I think there\u2019s two key questions there. [Interruption] Sorry, Simon O\u2019Connor\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225b6b1d74-9e5e-42ba-a922-85b0ea7f5ab6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4df13b594e044dda5592993e32c73e3\u0022\u003ESimon O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m just saying it\u2019s like the tenancy changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9fb41746fe4442b8070d008da231bbb\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: Tenancy changes? No, good point. I didn\u2019t take it from that perspective, but thanks for raising\u2014maybe another bill will cover that point. Those two questions, Minister, if I may.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00225c490d37e53f44ca87f01f1625e48f87\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c490d37e53f44ca87f01f1625e48f87\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Firstly, just a clarification in respect of Ms Lee\u2019s earlier question around the suppliers having to sell their products. It\u2019s just important to note, of course, that there is no compulsion for a supplier to sell into any particular grocery supplier. Obviously we want suppliers to do their part to improve competition, including taking up the opportunities to sell their products into new grocery retailers, either through an established wholesaler regime or directly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThis feeds into Mr Watts\u2019 question, because if suppliers don\u2019t and that was having an anti-competitive effect\u2014and that is to say, it is lessening competition\u2014then there is a backstop framework. This is the point that Mr Watts was referring, clause 18(2), that it\u2019s possible to have backstop regulation which could conceivably pull suppliers in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, that\u2019s not going to be some small supplier who\u2019s got a few lettuces or cabbages or some niche goods, but if some large manufacturer starts acting in a way, essentially throttling the supply chain, that would be problematic. So it\u2019s not prohibiting exclusive supply agreements under the regime to facilitate wholesale agreements suppliers may choose to opt-in there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIn terms of overseas investments, profits going overseas, it\u2019s interesting to hear the National Party being\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c402600c083455da0f2dd5b70f66cdf\u0022\u003ESimon Watts\u003C/span\u003E: Oh! Looking after your rich mates!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f01f78b3ce747a39a61d906ef6e8c64\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014protectionist. I just have a little chuckle to myself in respect of that. The Labour Party and this Government are very happy to be an international player, to be promoting free trade, and to have appropriate and well-managed overseas investment. And if that\u2019s an overseas player coming into New Zealand, whether in partnership with New Zealanders or otherwise to improve competition, to improve our market, and to lower prices, then that is a good thing. And, Mr Smith, there is no compulsory Government pricing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00222822233a63b9432e89121abf9730c616\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222822233a63b9432e89121abf9730c616\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Well, this part is probably the most contentious part of the bill, because what this part does is it legitimises and, in fact, encourages the regulated grocery retailers to move into wholesaling. And if this works well and it allows third parties to come into the market, that would be a great outcome. But the reason why this has probably got the most concern, and certainly some of National\u2019s concerns about this part, is if it\u2019s wrong and we don\u2019t end up getting a better outcome, then what we\u2019ve done is enabled the supermarkets, the large supermarkets, to increase their bandwidth from retailing right back into the wholesale chain. So there\u2019s an underlying assumption the Government has adopted in this bill that by regulating this, you will get a better outcome, and the jury\u2019s obviously out until we see that occur. That\u2019s the first point. I\u2019d just be interested to get the Minister\u2019s reflections on why he believes this will be effective. It\u2019s the difference from what is sought to be obtained, which is making products more available to a wider great group of competitors, but what assurance can the Minister give us that this will actually occur and we\u2019re not here in five years\u2019 time looking at this and saying, \u201CWell, that didn\u2019t work.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe second thing: the Minister made a comment about Costco and other competitors coming into New Zealand. One of the things I think I understand is that Costco actually hasn\u2019t had to rely on these wholesale provisions to get established. And clearly they\u2019ve got an operation in West Auckland and, hopefully, they\u2019re going to roll out more operations across New Zealand. But I think that Costco, if my understanding is correct, has shown that, actually, a large competitor\u2014Costco has always been mentioned; ALDI is another one\u2014can actually enter the current market, contrary to the Minister\u2019s assertion that it\u2019s really difficult, by actually just entering into direct relationships with suppliers because they\u2019re of a scale that suppliers want to offer them goods and services. So I just want to remind the Minister that that is the situation and so his assertion before, that this would encourage that\u2014what I\u2019d suggest to him is it\u2019s already occurred without the effects of this bill coming into play.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EJust a related question is what is the Minister\u2019s view around the logistics and supply arrangements that come with this natural extension back into wholesaling? Does the Minister believe that the commerce role will extend to making sure that their logistical and wholesaling warehousing arrangements are also subject to oversight by the Commerce Commission, or is that not part of the remit of the Commerce Commission because you cannot talk about wholesale supply without actually also talking about the logistics and the warehousing of those products, because obviously they\u2019re bought bulk and then distributed, and we\u2019re trying to set up an arrangement around that. So I\u2019ve got some more questions, but I just want to leave those three points there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022f907833e194a4b18a3aab64df86e0ebc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f907833e194a4b18a3aab64df86e0ebc\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. In respect to the suggestion of a wholesale duopoly, this bill does anticipate that possibility and lays it off. In particular, this bill will encourage commercial wholesale by Foodstuffs and Woolworths, but it also includes several safeguards to stop a wholesale duopoly which include protections for the ability of suppliers and wholesale customers forming trading relationships and also, of course, probably most importantly, monitoring by the Grocery Commissioner to see if that looks like it\u2019s emerging. And of course the backstop: the fact that the commission can impose regulations, appropriate regulations to address that, should it be seen as emerging.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI\u2019m not quite sure, really, what the point is around Costco and the fact that it\u2019s entered, and I think the suggestion was that this wasn\u2019t related to the grocery reforms, the market study, the removal of land covenants, and the fact that this Government has at last created an environment where competition is on the horizon and people like Costco are happy to come in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIn terms of those other logistics and supply chain questions, one of the things in the Supplementary Order Paper that is scattered throughout it is the inclusion of ancillary services, which would capture things like cold storage or trucking services that an operator might use to gain advantage when they can\u2019t price the goods themselves in any particular way. So they are drawn in for pretty much exactly that reason.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002296c6021dae0f467284de7b28dc362ae2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296c6021dae0f467284de7b28dc362ae2\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s always a pleasure when the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs articulates that the Government are proponents of a free market and more competition and all of those aspects\u2014if only that was the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EBut let\u2019s take a look at clause 18(2)(b)(i). This is in regards to the overview of regulation of wholesale supply of groceries. It articulates the requirement of one or more of these regulated entities to have what is referred to as a framework, which provides transparency about how these retailers will make decisions about prices, range, quantity, frequency, terms, and conditions\u2014all regulated aspects. In regards to that\u2014gosh, that sounds like a blast from the past, if you go into Eastern Europe, in terms of the Government dictating the frequency of how many cauliflowers you can sell in \u014Crewa. The Hon Mark Mitchell\u2014good to have you here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EBut the question, really, for the Minister, in regards to that framework, is that in reality, how does the Minister see that is going to work in practice? Is it genuinely going to be able to get to that degree of minutiae around the range of\u2014well, let\u2019s talk about some products you can buy at the local supermarket. Maybe eggs\u2014free-range eggs, of course; we\u2019re not into caged eggs. Free range. But there\u2019s a huge variation in terms of the range of the size of the eggs, and all other factors around it. But is it going to get into that degree of detail? And I know that because I do the weekly shop on a Sunday, just for the record. Damien Smith\u2019s looking at me, going, \u201CAre you sure?\u201D But no, I do do the weekly shop. And is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3f435ac01db48149c6de62f31e3a7eb\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, does he?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240037f3022fe41aebfcd8b1e01ae1c02\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: What was that, Mr Bayly?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253ff7bf17eb2411d89198668dddcb65c\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: I just wondered whether you did do the weekly shop.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b92940eac3014e829f45e893f93bdc5a\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just clarify that that\u2019s not a question for the Minister, but he can answer it if he wants. In regards to that framework, how is it going to work in practice?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe other point around this is in regards to the compliance costs on these wholesale entities in regards to meeting these obligations. Who will bear the cost in regards to the obligations around meeting those wholesale frameworks and the frameworks that I\u2019ve referred to? What is the estimated cost that the industry as a whole will bear as a result of this increased regulation? And has there been any consideration or assessment in regards to the additional cost burden that may be placed upon the industry and what that will result in, in terms of price increases for that carton of a dozen eggs that you pay at the counter when you come up? [Interruption] Sorry, what was that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e80e27db2f84424b99aa4316a5bf5511\u0022\u003ESam Uffindell\u003C/span\u003E: If you can find them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228dda9156e3d247a7a334ca4c43239db0\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: If you can find them\u2014and that may be an issue in some parts of the country, I acknowledge that. Thank you to the member for Tauranga there, articulating some good challenges of what is faced by many communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EBut interested in context around the cost that is imposed and whether any assessment or analysis will be done in terms of flow-through to the consumer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022b319fe4ef1734e33a0753460b9c2ab7a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b319fe4ef1734e33a0753460b9c2ab7a\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks, Madam Chair. Those were very good comments from my colleague Simon Watts there; I\u2019m looking forward to the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs\u2019 answers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe big question, apart from the issue of whether or not these regulations are going to work for wholesaling, is the vexed question of whether, in fact, the wholesaling arrangement should apply to the grocery retailers\u2019 own brands. The bill states that it doesn\u2019t. There\u2019s an exclusion, as I understand it. Of course, the reality in the market is that when you go to a supermarket, there will be a lot of products in the name of the supplier and there will be significant numbers of products under the category of home brand. If you look at trends going forward in places like Europe, home brands now account for two-thirds of many of the product offerings, as I understand it. So they\u2019ve increasingly over time become very significant. The interesting thing is that many of those home brands are exactly the same product that had been produced by the supplier but are just produced in a different carton and delivered to the supermarket.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo the issue is: why did the Minister believe that own-brand pricing arrangements for wholesale arrangements should be excluded? Again, there\u2019s many people concerned that the supermarkets can leverage their scale to drive down the cost of home-brand products, but new competition, such as Costco or ALDI or whoever we envisage might be going to come in, can\u2019t access those; they can only access the wholesale price that the supplier receives, not what it receives from the own brand product. So I\u2019d be interested to understand from the Minister why the home-brand pricing arrangements, that are often cheaper, are not included in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4f1d2689f904a819428ec049f2e3c24\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4f1d2689f904a819428ec049f2e3c24\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Mr Bayly. I understand that, in fact, the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee did address that problem, and recognised it in that there\u2019s no material differentiation between own brand or home brand\u2014whatever you want to call it\u2014and other products in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIn respect of Mr Watts, I want to make it clear that the regulations he\u2019s referring to are backstop regulations. They are regulations which will only be put in place where there is, essentially, market misbehaviour. You can have a read. You referred me to clause 18; if you\u2019d read the whole section, you\u2019d see that. So when you talk about, \u201CWill it go down and get down into the minutia?\u201D, it\u2019s highly unlikely that that will be necessary, because the fact that that backstop is there will, in fact, create market discipline. But if there is market behaviour, I would expect the Commerce Commission to use it as a confident and responsible enforcer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIn respect of the cost, do you know what the cost is? The cost is between $350 million and $500 million a year, and the people who are bearing it at the moment are the consumer. That\u2019s the real cost of not doing this before. So, yes, this does impose some costs on the retail duopoly, and that cost can be drawn from the super-profits that they\u2019ve been making to date because they\u2019ve been taking out of the pockets of ordinary New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00227b6872179bec4ada85a7f46efd08a3f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b6872179bec4ada85a7f46efd08a3f7\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah, thank you, Madam Chair. I think I\u2019ll leave my good colleague to respond to the other bit, but the Minister has not addressed the issue around own-brand pricing, and the assertion that own-brand pricing has little difference in the price paid to the supplier. I just want to clarify that that\u2019s what the Minister believes, because if that is the case, I think the Minister perhaps needs to get out and talk to a few more people because that is not the situation. So there\u2019s been a deliberate reason why own brands were excluded, and I\u2019m very keen to understand from the Minister why he, as the Minister, thought that there should be a differentiation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022d1a39d02a568445b9b79f50a93c7b10b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d1a39d02a568445b9b79f50a93c7b10b\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019d be helpful if Mr Bayly could show me where in the Supplementary Order Paper version of the bill own brands are referred to as excluded, because the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee addressed this matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00228f9c3cbf63b345688bbe34833309127e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f9c3cbf63b345688bbe34833309127e\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I wanted to come back to the responses from the Minister in regards to my questions in clause 18(2)(b)(i). The response given referred to the concept of the reasons for these reforms being because of the super-profits that these grocery entities are making, and referred to numbers, I believe, around $1.5 million or so. My question is quite simple: does the Minister believe that the policy decisions by this Government in order to restrict people to only shop at the supermarkets during the lockdowns in Auckland and not allow consumers to shop at butchers, greengrocers, and small retail outlets led to an inflation of the revenue and the profitability of the entities of which the Minister has just articulated in his response to my question: the reason for this reform is because of those super-profits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EMy challenge to the Minister is: actually, the reason why these entities in the period which is under review have made significant profits is because of Government policies that have led to a cost of living crisis in this country, and the Government policies that led to a restriction of consumers only being able to shop at these supermarket entities. So I don\u2019t think it\u2019s unreasonable to see that there is a little bit of a problem here in regards to the basis for the reforms actually being the result of this Government\u2019s policies. And I\u2019m interested in whether the Minister accepts that, or, if not, what factor, if any, did those policy responses make in regards to the profitability of these entities? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u00223667f1d58d994672b7253c7e0d53ca03\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223667f1d58d994672b7253c7e0d53ca03\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d like the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs to look at Part 3, clause 38, \u201CRegulated grocery retailer must ensure transparent pricing under wholesale agreement\u201D. The issue that I\u2019d like to bring to the Minister is whether he actually believes that the practice that I\u2019m going to sort of iterate for him is, in fact, transparent or fair, and should that continue, and how would that be made fairer or more transparent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EOne of the things that actually happens with the big multimillion-dollar - making supermarkets who also own the supply wholesale business is that they spread their costs by\u2014for example, they have Countdown or New World all over the country, and they may, from their own warehouse, supply to those supermarkets up and down the country, which are trucked to those places. But instead of charging different pricing for each truck that gets delivered to, let\u2019s say, Invercargill or to Hamilton or Waipukurau, they spread the cost evenly so that the cost is sunk and the business shares the costing, so that it\u2019s sort of not unfair for those more remote places to pay a higher transport cost. For example, when cyclones happen and bad weather hits, they often helicopter groceries to those remote places, and that cost is shared right across the business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003ESo in order to actually insist on their wholesale methods being more transparent in how they are calculated, is it really fair to say, that well, it\u2019s spread right across their business. Now that new entrants come in\u2014let\u2019s say Costco wants to be part of the business that buys wholesale food\u2014should Costco benefit in that sharing of that spread for transport costs, for example? Do you think there is a better way to make that cost more transparent and fair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00221b1697588915464fad732f620c919c4e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b1697588915464fad732f620c919c4e\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E In respect of Mr Watts\u2019 contribution, the commentary around lockdown policies isn\u2019t relevant to this debate, and didn\u2019t feature in the Commerce Commission market study.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIn respect of the honourable Melissa Lee\u2019s contribution, it\u2019s not for me to say what transparency is; that\u2019s the role of the Commerce Commission when those decisions are made. I won\u2019t venture into a specialist area tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022733cee5a3a0241759026ff371723f60e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022733cee5a3a0241759026ff371723f60e\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I\u2019d like to move to clause 48 in Part 3, which is in regard to the commission\u2019s inquiries, a new area that we haven\u2019t traversed so far this evening. But I must acknowledge the Minister for his responses to the questions that we are asking and for doing so in a diligent manner, even though some of the responses don\u2019t necessarily meet the threshold. But anyway, we are engaging in some form of to and fro, which is appreciated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EMy question in regards to clause 48(1), in particular, is around how the commission\u2019s inquiry is initiated, and the consideration and criteria around that. I would appreciate it if the Minister could provide some context in terms of how he envisages what the threshold is around the triggering of that inquiry and what are some of the considerations that would be considered. It says there \u201Cif required to do so by the Minister\u201D\u2014so giving us some context around at what point would the Minister consider it, taking into account the significance of such an exercise and the impact of that, both in terms of the entities under review but also the other parties. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe second aspect in regard to that inquiry is to look at clause 48(2) around the duration. So I\u2019m interested to hear from the Minister in terms of providing context around how long the Minister would envisage such an inquiry taking. Are we talking about it being a year long or two years or three years, or more sort of short and sharp? Just a bit of context around that, taking into account the burden of such processes, and, actually, as a result of those inquiries in regards to potential recommendations, what the Minister\u2019s expectations would be around how the translation of the recommendations\u2014including those reports\u2014will actually translate into action that will actually derive changes that the consumer may or may not see as a result of that piece of work. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00223a38f716c9a445e4b2e811a6b1325c1b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a38f716c9a445e4b2e811a6b1325c1b\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just two things\u2014the first one is about the regulatory backstop that the Minister referred to earlier. Can the Minister lay out what his expectations are of the possibilities of the regulatory backstop? There\u2019s an assumption that it will require more legislation, more regulation. And, of course, having been through this bill, there is a significant amount of legislation already provided for. What further regulation would he envisage to take place if there was a regulatory backstop imposed? And does that go to the extent of requiring operations to be divested\u2014so that\u2019s one option; separation of operational arrangements between wholesale and retailing operations, both at a profit or company structure, or whatever that might be; or is it just, in his mind, tightening up regulations even further, and, if so, what potential areas? I\u2019m just very keen that the Minister lay out for everyone what a backstop means.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00226d2feb952f0c459cba53a83a088454bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d2feb952f0c459cba53a83a088454bd\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Those two themes are, in fact, quite closely related, because they\u2019re both asking about the exercise of ministerial discretion. In respect of the inquiry question and time, I think the really important point is that that depends entirely on what the inquiry is into. It could be a short, discreet matter\u2014that could be a matter of weeks\u2014or it could be a very complex and deep matter, which may be many months or possibly more. So it\u2019s entirely impossible to say what that would be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIn respect of what would be the relevant considerations or when would further backstop regulation be triggered, or when would the inquiry be launched, I\u2019m very aware that the words spoken in this Chamber sometimes are used as guidance in making those decisions, and one thing I certainly would not want to do is fetter that discretion. We know that any decision along those lines is reviewable. The basis upon which those decisions are made must be rational, using relevant considerations, and bear a rational connection to the outcome sought. But, other than that, it\u2019s not for me to place fetters on a future Minister, whether from this side of the House or the other side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022426c3015f37f4c37a2997d505b3b6734\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022426c3015f37f4c37a2997d505b3b6734\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and I thank the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs for his responses in regards to questions around clause 48.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI want to move now to clause 51; this takes us on to the actual preparation of the report. And a little bit more context would have been appreciated around the answer that the Minister proposed, which is \u201CWell, it sort of depends, really, around what we\u2019re going to do.\u201D And I acknowledge there is a bit of variation, but that is pretty wide-ranging. But clause 51(2) provides a number of areas in which the commission may include other recommendations that it thinks fit, including recommendations, and it outlines, from (a) to (e), a number of those. I particularly want to look at clause 51(2)(b)\u2014this is what the commission can recommend\u2014\u201Cchanges to the policies or practices of central or local government:\u201D. You know, that\u2019s sort of buried on page 40 of the legislation, but I think it\u2019s\u2014the context around the commission actually being able to have carte blanche ability to make recommendations around changes of policies and practices of central or local government pretty much means that it can make recommendations about anything in regards to Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m interested around why that is such a broad-ranging aspect around recommendations, and is the intent of that, particularly around local government, that the commission is actually able to, you know, get into details such as the Resource Management Act, consenting, or zoning, or whether a food safety certificate is applied within a certain duration by a council\u2014what is actually the expectation of what you would expect to see? What\u2019s an example of one of the changes in policies around local government and the other aspect, around central government? Well, that includes all of central government, so, pretty much, you know, I can imagine\u2014well, I don\u2019t know if the commissioner is paid by the hour, but, I tell you what, if you were paid by the hour, jeez, you could come up with a lot of recommendations, couldn\u2019t you, if that was the scope of your ability? I guess one has to be considerate around whether that\u2019s actually going to add value or not. So some context around that subpoint would be interesting to hear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI also\u201451(2)(e): \u201Cpersons within the grocery industry changing their behaviour.\u201D An interesting clause in itself in that now the commissioner has the remit to make recommendations around the behaviours of individuals, of persons, working within the sector and where they need to change their behaviour. And it sort of reminds me of the good old days of the school teachers sort of, you know, saying\u2014I\u2019m sure it wasn\u2019t the case, the Hon Mark Mitchell, because you were always well behaved at school; we know that hypothetically\u2014hypothetically\u2014you were, maybe, on one day misbehaving, and a teacher had a little chat and said\u2014well, saying \u201Cthe Hon Mark Mitchell\u201D for the purpose of this conversation\u2014\u201CYou need to change your behaviour.\u201D But, you know, what, realistically, are we talking about here? Because there\u2019s a heck of a lot of people that work within the grocery sector, and this is right down to \u201Cpersons within the grocery industry\u201D\u2014actually, it\u2019s bigger than just that. You know, realistically, what are we talking about here in practice? Is the expectation that, actually, everybody is in scope, and what would be an example of the recommendation? Because it says that the commissioner, if they think fit\u2014so, basically, if they feel like it\u2014they can make a recommendation. Realistically, what\u2019s going to happen? I appreciate context on clause 51 please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022c96cc4ab3b104469a6072cc4b1ac7747\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c96cc4ab3b104469a6072cc4b1ac7747\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah, thank you. I just refer back to the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs\u2019 earlier response where he said, basically, he was very reluctant that any utterances in this Chamber might be used as a guiding principle if there were a court case or whatever\u2014I think that was the implication\u2014and therefore that\u2019s why he wasn\u2019t prepared to say what might be the process for implementing or initiating the regulatory backstop. But I did ask about what would be the range of measures that the Government and he, as the Minister, might contemplate in a regulatory backstop situation, because, I think, it\u2019s very important. I would hasten to say that the former Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs has made comments around the possibility or not of requiring sale divestment of operations. But I gave three examples: operational separation or management separation, through to sales, through to just more regulation. So I think it would be useful for the Minister to be clearer about what might be ruled to be acceptable and, perhaps, what would be ruled not to be acceptable as an option that could be pursued under the regulatory backstop.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ERelated to that, under clause 79, I note that the bill provides that the Minister\u2014the way that I read it\u2014may propose, contrary to the recommendation of the commission, to make a recommendation of Order in Council\u2014obviously, subject to the commission giving written advice. But this means we\u2019ve got a new Minister who suddenly determines, yes, they do want to require the supermarkets to sell off a whole lot of their chains\u2014would that be possible under clause 79? Is that what clause 79 provides for? So, again, I think the question that I asked earlier, in the context of what clause 79 lays out\u2014what is the Minister\u2019s expectation and even sort of the boundaries of which he might contemplate if he did go down the situation of imposing a regulatory backstop?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022af65baee14b34c8081ee07fe98f9f93e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af65baee14b34c8081ee07fe98f9f93e\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. In respect of Mr Watts\u2019 contribution, once again, I don\u2019t think it\u2019s really for me to speculate on a hypothetical of what might happen in the future, in respect of an inquiry and what responses a commission, which is an independent entity\u2014what suggestions to changes and policies local government or central government they might make. So that\u2019s entirely speculative, and I won\u2019t engage in that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIn respect of Mr Bayly, I think Mr Bayly\u2019s real question, down to the nuts and bolts of it, is: would this bill enable some enforced structural change, such as divestment? This bill is about regulating the industry, not about breaking it up. So I don\u2019t think that this bill equips the commission or the Minister through the second power, which Mr Bayly referred to, to require the divestment of any particular assets or any other fundamental structural change to the market itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002291b0672b38b549809967a20409ae5a45\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291b0672b38b549809967a20409ae5a45\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Look, I must say, I thought my questions in regards to clause 51(2)(b) and (e) were pretty reasonable in terms of just asking for one example that the Minister would foresee around those examples, taking into account the scope of those points are so wide ranging. But a sort of flippant far away comment that, you know, \u201CI\u2019m not going to get into the detail because it\u2019s up to the commissioner\u201D is, I don\u2019t think, a satisfactory answer. But I\u2019ll maybe give the Minister a little bit more time to think around a little bit more of a satisfactory answer, because I think that\u2019s a reasonable question to ask.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll move on to clause 52, which is below that and which is in regards to the consultation of the draft report, and I do ask the Minister to provide a response which is not just, you know, a throwaway comment. But the point of this clause 52(1) is that before the report or the inquiry report is finalised, not only should a draft report be published but, more importantly\u2014and that point around my question\u2014is that there is reasonable time allowed for comments on the draft.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EAnd my question for the Minister in regards to 52(1)(b) is: does the Minister foresee that that process in the public forum would be that there would be a mechanism in terms of consultation that would be similar to, say, consultation that local government does around specific projects\u2014i.e., there is a mechanism in which the public can provide submissions and there\u2019s a mechanism for those submissions to be considered and heard and, potentially, feedback given back? What does the consultation of the draft report consider? Because I acknowledge that, as the Minister noted before, the scale of the inquiries may be big or small. I guess I\u2019m particularly interested in when the inquiry is dealing with a large-scale issue which is meeting the threshold where it would be reasonable to expect that there is a public interest in regards to that. So can you give us some context in regards to how that consultation process would look. What would the Minister consider is a reasonable time? Are we thinking a reasonable time as in the context of what we would use in this House for a select committee process? And what are the mechanisms in which the public can engage in such a process to reduce the barriers of people being able to participate in such a feedback process, particularly where the scale of the inquiry is a degree of scale that has public interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI then want to move on to clause 54, if I can, and, just in the interest of time, this is where the Minister then gets back that report after that consultation and the report is finalised. This is clause 54, \u201CThe Minister must, within 1 month after receiving the final report, present the report back to the House of Representatives.\u201D It\u2019s interesting that that is such a prescriptive number\u2014and Andrew Bayly is looking at me going, \u201CYou\u2019re right, I didn\u2019t pick up on that\u201D, and I know he did because he was very diligently looking at this bill through the select committee process which we both were part of. And, you know, well, some may think a month is a long time. It\u2019s a long time in politics, isn\u2019t it, when you think about the last month in politics. Crikey, won\u2019t get into that because it\u2019s not part of the bill. But, geez, what a last month it has been for some parties in this House. The one month in terms of the scale, you know, how do we get to that; is it appropriate? We\u2019re talking a large-scale review. Is that genuinely going to be enough time for the Minister to be able to take the recommendations, which, as I outlined in clause 51(2)(b) and (e), could be significant and wide ranging and of scale and be able to then provide that feedback back around the final report in order to then table it in the House. Some context around whether the Minister is comfortable that that is appropriate around what is required would be very helpful in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u002277e6ba006f604713819326ce8d4ddd9f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277e6ba006f604713819326ce8d4ddd9f\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022 data-id=\u00225fce29b3a0c74f7d835f75f705c7a85a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225fce29b3a0c74f7d835f75f705c7a85a\u0022\u003EDAMIEN SMITH (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just on the principle of clause 19, ACT normally is against any level of excessive bureaucracy, but I am beginning to think that you may have to become the \u201CMinister of Groceries\u201D full time, Mr Webb, to actually just see how the relationship between, under \u201Cwholesale offerings to wholesale customers\u201D, the Minister and the commission will actually work. If you look at the clauses on pricing; range, quantity, and frequency; quality; and commercial relationships, there\u2019s a lot of stuff there. In principle, how dynamic would that be, and how would the players in the market interact with the commissioner and yourself on that aspect? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00222cce387431774330ac97e1aadeb5242e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222cce387431774330ac97e1aadeb5242e\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E This is an exciting and probably the most important part of the bill, so it\u2019s well worth spending a bit of time on it. I want to return to clause 82 \u201CWhen suppliers may opt out\u201D. Obviously this lays out, essentially, four options for suppliers. And I just wanted to understand what the Minister\u2019s view was around this, because I think there\u2019s some anecdotal evidence already starting to occur or become available that larger suppliers are choosing to opt out of the wholesale arrangements. Of course, this bill provides for it. Many of those companies are very large and, in many cases, global, international-based companies who supply a range of food products to the New Zealand market. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EAnd I suppose the question really is: is the Minister concerned that those very large, significant suppliers are choosing to opt out and many increasingly choose to opt out, which means this bill only really captures the smaller suppliers, and therefore does it undermine the concept that the whole raison d\u2019\u00EAtre of putting in place a wholesale arrangement was that if you were a new competitor to the market, you could easily go in and replicate those wholesale arrangements across all the range very quickly, and therefore be able to get up and running on equivalent competitive terms? So the big question is: is he concerned that there might be a trend that we see many of those very large suppliers not actually participating in this market, and therefore undermining the whole purpose of this part of the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002277c0081fff3f4c81b3609ef0a984d5f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277c0081fff3f4c81b3609ef0a984d5f7\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I thought I should just round off some of those questions while we\u2019re winding up here. Look, Mr Watts, in respect of some of your questions, you asked me to look forward to a future, and it\u2019s really not appropriate, on a hypothetical, for me to speculate about what the commission might do. Then you talked about what is a reasonable time\u2014in respect of, I think it was, clause 52. Once again, it\u2019s entirely circumstantial in terms of the time for a draft to be out there for responses. It\u2019s not a consultation; it\u2019s a draft being published and then people submitting. If it\u2019s a short document, not very long; if it\u2019s a long document, a long time. And, in respect of clause 54, which was the presentation, you need to do your time on the Regulations Review Committee, because presentation is a very formal thing, where it\u2019s simply the provision of the document to the Clerk of this House, and there\u2019s not really much involved in it at all, other than that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIn respect of Mr Smith\u2019s comments around the wholesale market and dynamic competition, I think it\u2019s a really good point that dynamic competition is what we want to see\u2014competition that doesn\u2019t stand still; a market which is rapidly changing\u2014and I think you\u2019re right that we do need to absolutely keep an eye on it. That\u2019s one of the reasons why the commission will have a role to play in, essentially, maintaining the code and keeping it up. In terms of large suppliers, obviously that\u2019s something that was before the select committee, and that\u2019s why the commission does have a power, essentially, to carve out those large suppliers from the arrangements, so that those very large suppliers could exert market dominance. The commission can carve those out to ensure that that dominance isn\u2019t affected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u00227515f1a02593480ca119965d767964ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227515f1a02593480ca119965d767964ed\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00222169605872ab47738b7dd2d752f72cde\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222169605872ab47738b7dd2d752f72cde\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022168b44f67ad84b9da1ed190347c71934\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022168b44f67ad84b9da1ed190347c71934\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Chair. Well, (a) you can\u2019t make two closure motions, and, secondly, you can\u2019t preface it with \u201CMadam Chair\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fad7b41c0e74798a07b7ca5272eccbf\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fee9197cf25481f908032d5be6a9f26\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Just in relation to that closure motion on this particular part of the bill. My understanding is that (a) a person can\u2019t make two closure motions, particularly following one another, and the second thing is you can\u2019t preface the closure motion by saying, \u201CMadam Chair\u201D; you stand up and say \u201CI move that this motion\u201D whatever. But the member who chose to make that closure motion didn\u2019t do it in an appropriate manner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c04cfca813314af88871b66ae701a44a\u0022\u003EDr Tracey McLellan\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order. I believe, Madam Chair, that I said \u201CMadam Chair\u201D to get the call, and said nothing else after taking the call, apart from the correct words of the closure motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fdfe4c811bb4887851ab9766c2ce972\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right. She did call out. There was no one else that actually took a call within those few seconds, and she was the one who first called out \u201CMadam Chair\u201D, so she was getting my attention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243eb1cb530134da5804ae4ac01a72ecb\u0022\u003ESimon Watts\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022033c0654b98b468f93e3d6f9e4c031f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022033c0654b98b468f93e3d6f9e4c031f3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Are you taking a point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225cc3264a9ac84bd6ab322dff791c29e5\u0022\u003ESimon Watts\u003C/span\u003E: No; just a call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa1bec30fcbd484db00cc8a45800e046\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve accepted the closure motion, though. So the question is: is someone asking for a vote to be called?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022946d4bd975a545a4aeb49e1d7d09c1bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022946d4bd975a545a4aeb49e1d7d09c1bc\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. I\u2019m not sure how you can accept a closure motion which wasn\u2019t put to you correctly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4bed41477fc402890f79ecbee6fac5e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: She did actually put the point of order to me correctly. She called out \u201CMadam Chair\u201D, which\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ef7cdc72ec048b4810857b3a5207907\u0022\u003ESIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: The process is \u201CPoint of order. I move, That the question be now put.\u201D, not \u201CPoint of order, Madam Speaker\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297b99dfbe18b430cbc5bbba0382e4b30\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order. Madam Chair, you will be aware, as all members of this House will, that often when we\u2019re seeking the call, we need to make the call to the Chair or the Speaker on multiple occasion, and this is indeed what happened in this instance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00225a0545665310458e9f4b0ac7e09d7e48\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a0545665310458e9f4b0ac7e09d7e48\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The Speaker\u2019s ruling is that she is allowed, actually, to call out my name before she seeks the closure motion, but it can actually be asked for again\u2014the closure motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u00224a46fa6fe5624bc7aac2c9f029e85455\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a46fa6fe5624bc7aac2c9f029e85455\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002217f2dadb8ba04874907b4d1fad9071c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002217f2dadb8ba04874907b4d1fad9071c8\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I\u2019d like to move to clause 53 of the bill in regards to Part 3, a clause that we haven\u2019t touched on yet. I\u2019d be interested in the Minister\u2019s comments in regards to where the \u201CCommission must give report to the Minister and publish it\u201D. This clause, in particular, outlines that the final report, which I questioned before in regards to clauses 52 and 54, which the Minister provided some response but not necessarily one that provided adequacy\u2014refers to the fact that the final report on the inquiry to the Minister, which must be submitted \u201Cas soon as practicable after completing it\u201D, which obviously makes sense, but my question is in regards to this point. It refers to 53(1)(b), which is \u201Cat least 10 working days later, publish the final report.\u201D I\u2019m interested in whether\u2014well, that one looks to be a potential conflict in regards to those two specific clauses. How does point (b) in regards to the 10 working days later of publication of the report actually work in regards to that clause?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe second clause I want to get into is clause 56, another clause that we haven\u2019t touched on yet this evening, which is in regards to the Minister publishing the Government\u2019s response to this, and as we\u2019ve articulated earlier this evening around some of these reports, which may be of scale and substance in dealing with issues in the public interest. In terms of what the Minister foresees in regards to what is a reasonable time after receiving the report that this final report is actually published, are we talking weeks or months or years? Sometimes, when we on this side of the House consider what is reasonable in terms of the provision of information which is in the public interest, that information is not readily available. So some context around what the Minister expects in regards to 56(1)(a) would be appreciated, and we\u2019ll leave it at that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u002221799a538571422394ebb9d576fccb8f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221799a538571422394ebb9d576fccb8f\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c9df69d0071746e5af4b17bd073ad407\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 109\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; New Zealand National 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000782\u0022\u003EThe result corrected after originally being announced as Ayes 111, Noes 10.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00225c31a6a221e14dcab52c52ea21b04d05\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c31a6a221e14dcab52c52ea21b04d05\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 3 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 353 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224bf414db9f2a4ff295d9604e4b07637e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 109\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; New Zealand National 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000784\u0022\u003EPart 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ded729c0c93940bcafb90eb87814fc39\u0022\u003EPart 4  Enforcement and dispute resolution\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00224927d6b109a34bdf8a641e23b4d309c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224927d6b109a34bdf8a641e23b4d309c2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: We come now to Part 4, which is the debate on clauses 113 to 159 and Schedule 2, \u201CEnforcement and dispute resolution\u201D. The question is that Part 4 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00226846506e74e14908b86a7aa3792d4d44\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226846506e74e14908b86a7aa3792d4d44\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah, thank you, Madam Chair. I think there\u2019s sort of two crucial elements in this part, but the one I want to just turn to first\u2014it\u2019s probably of lesser importance, but important to understand\u2014is the issue around maximum penalty, which is referred to in clause 122. There\u2019s obviously different tiered penalties\u2014clauses 123 and then 124 and 125. But I just want to refer to clause 122. The maximum amount of this\u2014and this is subclause (3)\u2014is a pecuniary penalty of $500,000 for a contravention, an attempted contravention, or an involvement in a contravention by an individual. So that makes sense that it relates to an individual, and I know the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee was very keen and actually ensured that the level of penalty was similar to other pieces of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe bit I just want to ask the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs about is \u201C(b) in any other case, the greater of\u2014(i) $10 million; and (ii) either the amount referred to in subsection (4)(a)\u201D and (b). Now, subclause (4)(a) and (b) have two options\u2014and, remember, this is the \u201Cgreater of\u201D. The first one is under (a): if it can be readily ascertained and if the court is satisfied that contravention has occurred, then three times the value of the commercial gain. So that one, obviously, is a judgment call around what is the level of commercial gain that the grocery retailers achieved, and to put a three times multiple on it. Or (b): greater of 10 percent of the turnover the person that is liable to pay the penalty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ENow, it might be useful just for the Minister to talk about, because if we\u2019re talking about the two existing players, the turnover of those\u2014and he might have those figures to hand, and I\u2019m hoping he does\u2014what would be the turnover of those two companies currently, and what does 10 percent represent? Because if you follow through on the maths, I would imagine that 10 percent is a very large figure, and the way this is drafted means that you end up at the greater figure. And so I\u2019m just really keen to understand what the Minister believes that potentially that greater figure could actually be, based on the current turnover of the two existing\u2014well, will be, shortly\u2014regulated grocery retailers. Hopefully, he\u2019s got an answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00225b6bb589d78d4f63b2a1a210a5931389\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b6bb589d78d4f63b2a1a210a5931389\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E While the Minister\u2019s thinking of a response to that good question from my colleague Andrew Bayly, I\u2019d like to refer to Subpart 5, which is in regards to dispute resolution provisions within Part 4 of this bill\u2014in particular, clauses 147(1), (2), and (3). Clause 147(3)(a) outlines the scale of disputes that may be referred to the scheme. And it refers to disputes less than $5 million are within scope of this, and then goes on to outline the other considerations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister is in regards to disputes that exceed $5 million: what is the expectation and the process and mechanism in order to deal with disputes of that scale? I think, when one considers the cost of food and other goods that flow through the grocery industry, the context around $5 million may seem a lot in this House, but the reality is for some of our large suppliers that may only represent a day\u2019s worth of stock, potentially, depending on the scale and volume if you think about some of our large production entities. So how will we deal with entities and disputes in regards to exceeding that amount?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe other aspect is in regards to dispute resolution in terms of how the Minister envisages this process working in terms of getting the parties around the table and whether there has been any consideration in the drafting of this clause in relation to other dispute resolution clauses that lie within other aspects of legislation\u2014obviously outside of the grocery industry but any other industry aspects that have a similar context. So those are the two points in regards to clause 147 that I\u2019d appreciate some context from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00229368f86512f347a69216aa7ed204cc9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229368f86512f347a69216aa7ed204cc9e\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m just pausing because I want to give the Minister an opportunity to respond, and I\u2019m just looking at him. OK, I\u2019ll move on, and my good colleague here Simon Watts has just been referring to clause 147. I just want to refer specifically to clause 149, and this is the referral to a dispute resolution scheme. This was a change that the select committee put in place, which enables the supplier or wholesale customer to refer matters to a dispute tribunal process, provided, as Mr Watts has just said, it does not exceed $5 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe first question I\u2019ve got for the Minister is: how do you define the $5 million? If you have a contractual supply\u2014and that might be for a long-term supply over the course of a number of years\u2014would that preclude that arrangement if the total value of that long-term supply was more than $5 million? Or is the dispute figure what triggers the $5 million? And how do you define that? If you\u2019re talking about a particular supply arrangement and there is a dispute around marketing fees, is the cost of the marketing fees the dispute\u2014and therefore that\u2019s what\u2019s captured by the $5 million\u2014or is it, as Mr Watts was trying to indicate, if you are supplying and the total value of the goods that you supplied for that week was less than $5 million, you\u2019re OK? So the first thing: a bit of definition around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe second one is about the three elements where the dispute can be referred, and it rises from the performance or non-performance of the grocery supply code. The second element is in relation to the wholesale supply of groceries code, or \u201Cfalls within \u2026 [the] eligible disputes prescribed by regulations\u201D. Now, that always gives MPs who have been in the House for a while the screaming heebie-jeebies, because that means no one in this House knows what the regulations might be, and only the Minister, who\u2019s sitting in the chair, will know what those will be and publish them. Because, of course, regulations don\u2019t need to come back before the House, nor in fact do they have to go back before the select committee. So I think it\u2019s probably important\u2014the second question is: what might the regulation envisage, and what might it preclude?\u2014so we can get some sort of indication from the Minister about how that regulation framework would be drafted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022489f5c4ed62441228438dacd2152ae8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022489f5c4ed62441228438dacd2152ae8e\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. In respect to Mr Bayly\u2019s original question, I just note that the \u201C3 times the value\u201D or the \u201C10 percent of turnover\u201D in clause 122 are alternatives. So it\u2019s not the higher of those two; the question is, whether we can determine three times the value of the wrong, in which case it\u2019s that\u2014or it\u2019s 10 percent of the turnover.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIn respect of the fact that 10 percent of the turnover\u2014or indeed $10 million\u2014is a very large number, it\u2019s really important to recognise firstly that that is the upper limit. So think of the worst possible conduct and the largest financial consequence of that conduct. So this might be a situation where, by deception, one of the players has stripped profits from the New Zealand public to the tune of billions of dollars, right? Then obviously we have to have a significant disincentive, and we know in these areas that if there\u2019s one wrong that\u2019s been detected, there may often be other wrongs undetected, so we need to have a proportionate disincentive. So those are high penalties at the upper limit, but rightly so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIn terms of Mr Watts\u2019 question relating to clause 147, I think he was asking about the $5 million limit and why it\u2019s there. There are, of course, other ways to resolve a dispute\u2014if it falls outside of it, whether that be through an arbitration in a private sense or using the High Court. So this scheme is very much tailored to ensuring a highly efficient and effective dispute resolution scheme that means that there\u2019s not some grinding process where the market power of the main retailers can, in fact, be used to grind down the people who have a dispute. And that $5 million limit was thought to be appropriate there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIn terms of\u2014Mr Bayly again touched on that\u2014the section itself, it is relatively clear. He sort of said, \u201CIs it the amount of goods that\u2019s in question? Or does it include marketing costs?\u201D Well, the question is, how much is in dispute? I think the words are, \u201CWhat is the claim; the amount of the claim?\u201D So that\u2019s the short answer to that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIn terms of eligible dispute, obviously, any regulations have to be consistent with the purpose of the Act. They are subject to the scrutiny of the Regulations Review Committee, and rightly so. But in terms of what else might crop up, we\u2019ve talked about things like the use of logistics and supply chain as a lever to get excess profits. It could be anything along those lines. But, again, not for me to speculate what that might be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00225ead300ba56446689223b46dd5a610b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ead300ba56446689223b46dd5a610b9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, before I call on the next member to take a call, I need to correct the result of the vote on the question of the closure on Part 3. The result was announced as Ayes 111 and Noes 10; the correct result is Ayes 109 and Noes 10. The record will be corrected accordingly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u002268a1456cc7ed4af38ff40baa1697486e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268a1456cc7ed4af38ff40baa1697486e\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Well, I\u2019m slightly disappointed that the Minister didn\u2019t actually sit down and work out the figures. A quick Google search revealed\u2014while he was talking, because I thought he was going to come up with some numbers, but he didn\u2019t. The revenue, based on what\u2019s in Google, of Foodstuff\u2019s North Island group in a 52-week period\u2014i.e., a year\u2014was $6.7 billion. So I\u2019m sure the Minister is very good\u2014I know he\u2019s an excellent lawyer, but he\u2019s also an excellent mathematician, I\u2019m sure! But 10 percent of 6.7 billion is a big sum. And so does he still think, potentially\u2014true, that was just one example; Countdown and the Woolworths Group New Zealand obviously will have a very large turnover as well. So is 10 percent, in his view, an appropriate figure? Because that is a significant sum that potentially\u2014and I take his point: that\u2019s a maximum cap, but, none the less, the maximum cap dwarfs the $10 million figure. So, again, I\u2019d just like the Minister to just think about the actual numbers and whether that figure is actually appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe second thing\u2014I\u2019m going to sit down and, hopefully, the Minister is going to take the opportunity to respond to that because I want to ask some further questions. Obviously, he\u2019s not. Hopefully, if you need to calculate, I can give him a calculator if that\u2019s useful. Maybe someone on the Labour Party has got a calculator, because you know, there\u2019s a Budget coming up this week and I know they\u2019re good at spending money, but maybe not calculating them. So moving along, hopefully the Minister\u2019s got his phone on him because he can go 6.7 \u00D7 0.1 and he might get an answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI want to just turn back to clause 149. The issue here is that the supplier or wholesaler customer may refer certain disputes to a dispute resolution scheme. One of the questions that was considered by the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee, and I\u2019m interested to hear what the Minister has to say, is whether in fact the regulated grocery retailers should in fact be able to refer matters of dispute to the arbitration process. And the argument for that, of course, was in the essence of trying to get speedy resolution and therefore dealing with disputes quickly, promptly, and equitably, and using a scheme that was cheap\u2014relatively cheap compared to a court case\u2014why the Government thought it was not appropriate that regulated grocery retailers should be able to refer matters to dispute provided they, for instance, were less than $5 million etc., etc. Why did they think that it was appropriate, and why does the Minister believe it\u2019s appropriate, that the supermarkets shouldn\u2019t be able to refer matters and therefore their only approach was either through negotiation, which would be unlikely to go through some arbitration dispute process, which is not compulsory, or, and more the reality, is to take those matters to court. Why was the differential approach adopted in the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022495d66c04996406eba20feaac16edce8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022495d66c04996406eba20feaac16edce8\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you for that, Mr Bayly. In fact, you know, I can do this in my head, OK\u2014which might not be as big as yours, but it\u2019ll do! Look, I wasn\u2019t going to respond on the revenue point, because I think I covered it pretty adequately before. But I\u2019ve been given some information which is, firstly, that it is really important when I said that is the highest level for the most egregious conduct. And, even then, if we go to the 10 percent figure, the court always has discretion in the size of those penalties, and if it was disproportionate, you know, I\u2019m very happy for our skilled judiciary to address that. It is interesting that that is also used in the Commerce Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIn terms of the $5 million figure and why it\u2019s the threshold, a lot of this, you know, has been drawn from the Australian framework, and that\u2019s a similar threshold over there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIn terms of why can\u2019t retailers access the dispute resolution scheme, to be perfectly honest, I haven\u2019t yet heard them screaming \u201CBully-boy\u201D because they\u2019re being pushed around by some fruit and vegetable operator demanding more for their lettuces. This is about redressing a power imbalance and making sure that\u2014because the main obligations in the supply code are of course placed on the retailers, on the grocery suppliers, and that\u2019s where the rubber really hits the road. So that\u2019s why it\u2019s needed to redress that imbalance there. It\u2019s simply not needed and they can easily have redress through other dispute resolution channels.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022c934a6b2770d4dab8022c8ecfeab921a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c934a6b2770d4dab8022c8ecfeab921a\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ea57c2c5d0494642a1b9e09d101f140a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 109\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; New Zealand National 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00228cb6ef3dbb26483bb621cd9ffccd59ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228cb6ef3dbb26483bb621cd9ffccd59ba\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 4 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 353 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d978513b8c8949d1932c2e04aea1b0bb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 109\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; New Zealand National 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000811\u0022\u003EPart 4 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a23c7a66f2254fbeaff89b10cc8877af\u0022\u003EPart 5  Miscellaneous\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002294fabec2b139497fab86eb100c5cccdc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294fabec2b139497fab86eb100c5cccdc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 5. This is the debate on clauses 160 to 190 and the miscellaneous provisions. The question is that Part 5 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00224ace6d9c87c448c19c8fe55c0901d579\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ace6d9c87c448c19c8fe55c0901d579\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s been an exciting night, hasn\u2019t it? I referred to this clause 160 before, at the start of the debate\u2014I actually referenced it back to the functions, but I\u2019ll take it up again: the appointment of a grocery commissioner. One of the things about this: you can write wonderful legislation with all the best intent, but the reality is, like all industries, the grocery trade is a dynamic industry that will be changing, evolving, hopefully for the better but sometimes it may be for the worse\u2014we don\u2019t know. But whatever the case is, to be effective this legislation relies on having a grocery commissioner with the requisite skills to do the job. In my personal view, and it\u2019s something that National\u2019s made very clear, without a commissioner with the requisite skills and ability to robustly go and do his or her job, then all of this good work in this bill is unlikely to result in substantial change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo my central point to the Minister in the chair, Duncan Webb, is: what assurance can he give the committee that the appointment of the commissioner will be to ensure that that person has an in-depth, relevant market knowledge of the grocery sector? I don\u2019t intend it to be an offence or anything, but to not make sure that that person gets appointed with other skills, such as because they might be a very good lawyer or whatever\u2014because I think the importance of this role particularly is to have the understanding of the sector and the way it operates, and it is a large, complex sector. So can the Minister give assurance to the committee that in appointing the commissioner\u2014and it will be for him to make the recommendation\u2014such a person will be appointed and we don\u2019t end up with someone who doesn\u2019t have those requisite skills?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb39169c598b4845862c23a8312b025c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb39169c598b4845862c23a8312b025c\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00222b0c2d4e57b84cb99f78a00b1545dca1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b0c2d4e57b84cb99f78a00b1545dca1\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I don\u2019t think that was a very satisfactory answer in regards to the assurances around the point, because clause 161(2) actually articulates\u2014as my colleague Andrew Bayly referred to\u2014the type of experiences that this individual will have. And it says quite clearly in this clause that \u201Cby virtue of that person\u2019s knowledge of, or experience in, the grocery industry\u201D\u2014which I don\u2019t think anyone would argue, and I think that was your point, Mr Andrew Bayly, that that would be appropriate. But it then goes on \u201Cor\u201D\u2014and the old \u201Cor\u201D word is always the \u201Cget out of jail\u201D word, isn\u2019t it: \u201Cor any other industry\u201D. So there you go, Andrew. That doesn\u2019t sound like the grocery industry, does it, because it says \u201Cor any other\u201D. So you could be a jack of all trades but no expert in grocery and get this wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIt goes on: \u201Ccommerce, economics, law\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288a64ee74026454c84790ef67e46f6e0\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f06ad11238314cc4b1827ff4e2a18f3e\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014law\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0cc75f3cfc14059a8a0ecabcc02cd96\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Accountancy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247d54e07366a4dc781feac92a906d59c\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014\u201Caccountancy, public administration, or consumer affairs.\u201D So I think it\u2019s reasonable to ask the Minister to articulate with a little bit more than a single word the assurance around why that clause in particular is going to ensure that the individual undertaking this\u2014which is, as we\u2019ve been through this evening and traversed the elements, a complex aspect of legislation. There is a huge number of areas and responsibilities that will be placed on this. They will be dealing with three significant entities of scale. So capability and competence in terms of being able to undertake the role with a degree of efficiency and effectiveness will be paramount.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo the risk, which I don\u2019t think is unduly underestimated by this side of the House, is that it\u2019s a lovely bill but the individual may not have the capability and competence based on the criteria articulated at clause 161(2) to actually be able to fulfil the scope of the role in a way in which will provide confidence (1) particularly to the Minister, other than the individual Minister\u2019s opinion, but (2) to the broader public, of which this commissioner\u2019s role is going to provide a public service in terms of building trust and confidence that we do have the appropriate level of competition within this important industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00222f2e66163a0a4fdf803bd0b5b76aa368\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f2e66163a0a4fdf803bd0b5b76aa368\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E To expand: absolutely yes. But, look, no, it\u2019s a fair point. The Grocery Commissioner is a critical part of the infrastructure of this bill. This is a role which, obviously, will exist for a while. And it is important that we find someone who brings both the courage and determination as well as the right set of skills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, I think the extensive list that Mr Watts referred to is there for a reason, and that is because we don\u2019t want to constrain ourselves. We absolutely want the best person for this job; whether it be an accountant, even, or someone else who\u2019s well versed in the area of grocery reforms. It\u2019s important to recognise that the key requirement is that they are equipped to discharge their functions and powers and assist in achieving the purposes of this bill. The purposes of this bill are to enhance consumer outcomes or, to put it basically in simple terms, put money back in ordinary New Zealanders\u2019 pockets so they can get a better deal at the checkout. That\u2019s why we are here tonight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo this Grocery Commissioner is absolutely a critical part of the infrastructure who needs to be both responsible in exercising the powers that are given to him or her, but also to be courageous and brave and exercise them where necessary, because what we\u2019ve seen to date is that the system is broken, that we have monopoly profits\u2014profits which are fundamentally taken from consumers and put into the pockets of big business, and that\u2019s not right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo the search for this Grocery Commissioner\u2014as I\u2019m sure Mr Bayly knows\u2014is under way, because when this bill passes, we want to see it up and running as soon as possible. I\u2019m confident that we will be able to recruit someone who\u2019s not only got the technical skills but also the passion for doing what\u2019s right by New Zealanders, because that\u2019s what this bill is actually about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo in terms of the skills necessary and Mr Watt\u2019s point\u2014exactly what those might be of that list or what mix, I don\u2019t know. But this person will be a commerce commissioner, and that\u2019s really important. They sit alongside in an organisation, with a set of skills so that they can have the peers to understand the competition and learn from them and be supported by them as well. So that is also a really important part of it. And sitting in the Commerce Commission, which has, of course, generated this market study where this came from, is a really important point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo in terms of the point: are we going to get a good Grocery Commissioner? I\u2019m absolutely confident that we will because that is the very critical foundation upon which the implementation of this\u2014and should further regulations or tweaks to the grocery supply code be necessary, that will be an important part of that as well. But, fundamentally, this person will be implementing a policy of fairer prices at the supermarkets, and that\u2019s the most important thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00228dc90ecfb05847a699c112dc63c9426b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228dc90ecfb05847a699c112dc63c9426b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for me to report progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EProgress to be reported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a95797603e434385a2fa5e9545039407\u0022\u003EReport of Committee of the Whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ad247fe75d0940329a7f4e68c9eb7747\u0022\u003EReport of Committee of the Whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022d02eba4e48d74fe8982cfe1b44821b8a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d02eba4e48d74fe8982cfe1b44821b8a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, the committee has considered the Customs and Excise (Arrival Information) Amendment Bill and reports it without amendment. The committee has also considered the Self-contained Motor Vehicles Legislation Bill and reports it with amendment. The committee has also considered the Accident Compensation (Access Reporting and Other Matters) Amendment Bill and reports it without amendment. The committee has also considered the Grocery Industry Competition Bill and reports progress. I move, That the report be adopted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202305161cee5d108a2840ea8941146380944af5000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 9.56 p.m. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"