"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e316ea47a891414b82aae2541fc16cc7\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 20 JUNE 2023\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fc9d15d16732423e95ed83b0482b2a17\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 20 JUNE 2023\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229bbe785d661b46988a1991505f2e25b7\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002207c2f2e3db3f46cb833cc0351531d816\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1d11a7fb1434c8993a167dcdb7769c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1d11a7fb1434c8993a167dcdb7769c7\u0022\u003EHon JENNY SALESA (Assistant Speaker):\u003C/span\u003E E te Atua kaha rawa, ka tuku whakamoemiti atu m\u0101tou, m\u014D ng\u0101 karakia kua waihotia mai ki runga i a m\u0101tou. Ka waiho i \u014D m\u0101tou p\u0101nga whaiaro katoa ki te taha. Ka mihi m\u0101tou ki te K\u012Bngi, me te inoi atu m\u014D te \u0101rahitanga i roto i \u014D m\u0101tou whakaaroarohanga, kia m\u014Dhio ai, kia whakaiti ai t\u0101 m\u0101tou whakahaere i ng\u0101 take o te Whare nei, m\u014D te oranga, te maung\u0101rongo, me te aroha o Aotearoa. \u0100mene.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E[Almighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the King, and pray for guidance in our deliberations, that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom and humility, for the welfare, peace and compassion of New Zealand. Amen.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f971cec7baca408e913a62898584e32c\u0022\u003EPrivilege\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bd9ccbd997f248758ae65d8ec56b5703\u0022\u003EDisclosure of Select Committee Proceedings\u2014Voting on Natural and Built Environment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab295355a4524ba8b1bf32ede26f7eae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab295355a4524ba8b1bf32ede26f7eae\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, I have received a letter from the Hon Eugenie Sage raising as a matter of privilege the disclosure of committee proceedings by Simon Court on the consideration of the Natural and Built Environment Bill. A disclosure was made by way of a press release. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EThe committee has attempted to resolve this matter but has been unable to do so. Mr Court admitted making the press release informing the media of the outcome of a vote taken during the committee\u2019s consideration. However, he took the view that the proceedings could be disclosed under Standing Order 243(3)(a) because they did not relate to any business or decision still before the committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EThe onus is on the member who divulges proceedings to check whether they may do so. If there is any doubt, they should seek clarification in the committee or discuss with committee staff whether disclosure is permissible. The confidentiality attached to committee proceedings apart from public evidence was relaxed in 2003 to enable members to disclose procedural decisions such as the appointment of advisers or a decision not to initiate an inquiry. Because these procedural matters do not reflect the potential findings of a committee or indicate the direction of its consideration, there is no difficulty in divulging them before the committee reports to the House. However, discussion and voting on substantive matters before the committee remain strictly confidential until the committee reports to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EI do not consider that the matters disclosed by Mr Court are the sort of procedural decisions that the Standing Orders Committee contemplated being able to be divulged before a committee reports to the House. I have considered the degree of importance of the matter. It is essential that committees are able to consider matters freely and deliberate on them in strict confidence. They are obliged to inform the House of their findings first. Therefore, I find a question of privilege arises. The question stands referred to the Privileges Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f94716b3f13d48ae962fe88d6e3e2b7e\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223609c979d1534517a92cb72806550967\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4055b7024074df2be6128b0f5501c88\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4055b7024074df2be6128b0f5501c88\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Petitions have been delivered to the Clerk for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022e6e9c3a0f0d0489c862f23d193479bfd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e6e9c3a0f0d0489c862f23d193479bfd\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EPetition of Asia Pacific Refugee Rights Network requesting the House investigate the creation of a Rainbow subcategory within the New Zealand Refugee Quota Programme\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Greg Rzesniowiecki requesting that the House urge the Government to hold a referendum before adopting any amended International Health Regulations of the World Health Organization concerning the use of mRNA vaccines in future pandemics\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Greg Rzesniowiecki requesting that the House urge the Government to hold a referendum before signing the proposed World Health Organization pandemic treaty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022db0c2172f22b491f88426f8090accc13\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db0c2172f22b491f88426f8090accc13\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those petitions stand referred to the Petitions Committee. Ministers have delivered papers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022c774548fa4324b0591f243e2f8a843b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c774548fa4324b0591f243e2f8a843b9\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2021-22 annual report of the Hawke\u2019s Bay District Health Board\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EGovernment response to the referral of the petition of Leo Li\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2023-27 statement of intent for the Serious Fraud Office \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2023-24 statements of performance expectations for the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EAccreditation Council\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003ETransport Accident Investigation Commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00224e866c28a3cf4277a18c972571533a61\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e866c28a3cf4277a18c972571533a61\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those papers are published under the authority of the House. Select committee reports have been delivered for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00221745c7f928d04be085f1d80ff4db224f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221745c7f928d04be085f1d80ff4db224f\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReports of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee on the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of Postal Workers Union of Aotearoa\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EThomas Cawthron Trust Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Health Committee on the Therapeutic Products Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Justice Committee on the: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003E2021-22 annual reviews of the Criminal Cases Review Commission and the Privacy Commissioner\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of Bridget King\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Petitions Committee on the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of Eva Chen\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of Maggie Ross\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Epetition of Robert Osborne\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Primary Production Committee on the petition of Frances Clement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Regulations Review Committee on the inquiry into COVID-19 secondary legislation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee on the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ebriefing on reports prepared by the Auditor-General and the Infrastructure Commission for Transmission Gully\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ereports of the Ombudsman on OIA compliance and practice in Waka Kotahi NZ Transport Agency and the Ministry of Transport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3729edb4ed749f0ae4270d1db497558\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3729edb4ed749f0ae4270d1db497558\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bills are set down for second reading. The report on the reports of the Ombudsman and the report of the Regulations Review Committee are set down for consideration. The Clerk has been informed of the introduction of bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00224aa484e1e7a84bafa5b7d20d7efb443c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224aa484e1e7a84bafa5b7d20d7efb443c\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EWhakat\u014Dhea Claims Settlement Bill, introduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EWater Services Entities Amendment Bill, introduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EMcLean Institute (Trust Variation) Bill, introduction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc0206e757734e86991551803e0a404f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc0206e757734e86991551803e0a404f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those bills are set down for first reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ca8541ba7e354879a897d034f3e7d7fa\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226157276399f5463cb8a993c8b5f14a44\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000044\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f1395552af264b12a5dc54a3d4108f1e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3 to Minister, 21 June 2022\u2014Amended Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022d72a813a57a745cc8e3970a2b361086e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d72a813a57a745cc8e3970a2b361086e\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek leave to make a personal explanation to correct an answer to oral question No. 3 on 21 June 2022. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022442b6e4290d54a5fbdbd88c63ac7459d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is none. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279cdae85860f4e8b9097139bfb8ab3ef\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: In response to Ms Ngarewa-Packer\u2019s first supplementary to oral question No. 3 on 21 June 2022, I stated that the Children\u2019s Commissioner, between 2015 and 2019, had had 78 complaints that were put through them that they then put on to the Ombudsman because the Ombudsman has had the lead role with regards to addressing complaints. The Office of the Children\u2019s Commissioner has confirmed to the Ministry of Social Development that the number of complaints in my answer is correct. However, following correspondence between my office and a stakeholder, I have been made aware that the time period I referred to was not correct. The time period I referred to should have been 1 January 2015 to 28 February 2022. My office advised me of this yesterday, and I\u2019m taking this first possible opportunity to correct the record.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227fd67809206f4a28bb0ffa948b233327\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Social Development and Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022 data-id=\u002200db04d8d326459a87ea763dfcc3cac4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002200db04d8d326459a87ea763dfcc3cac4\u0022\u003EDr EMILY HENDERSON (Labour\u2014Whang\u0101rei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: What recent reports has she seen on the effects of changes to the welfare system since 2017?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u0022e76d48b4d0ab403f86ff7b0f2562bb7d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e76d48b4d0ab403f86ff7b0f2562bb7d\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Last week, Max Rashbrooke reported in The Spinoff what progress has been made by this Government\u2019s successive investments to lift incomes, pull children out of poverty, and help those in need through changes to the welfare system. He concludes in his article that income poverty has decreased overall and that 115,000 people have been brought out of poverty since we came into office. This is hard\u2014sometimes technical\u2014work, but we are making progress. We\u2019re not shying away from putting families first and focusing on what matters most to New Zealanders as we continue to deliver meaningful change in children\u2019s and families\u2019 lives through the welfare system. We remain focused on easing the pressure for our most vulnerable families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5cf296243674499bd74c04560974550\u0022\u003EDr Emily Henderson\u003C/span\u003E: What progress has been made for reducing hardship through changes to the welfare system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232afb214ce74418485a324967646b530\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Rashbrooke identified progress on three key measures, including how many children are in families that find it hard to afford the basics, whether living standards are rising over time, and how many families report being unable to afford life\u2019s basic necessities. Mr Rashbrooke concludes progress has been made on these three measures and we are heading in the right direction. Today, 13 percent of children say food runs out sometimes or often, compared with 20 percent in 2019. On\u00A02023 Government figures, 356,000 beneficiaries are estimated to be better off by, on average, $118 per week, which increases to $142 per week during the 2023 winter period. A further 109,000 beneficiaries with children are estimated to be better off by, on average, $190 per week, which increases to $222 per week during the 2023 winter period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e27c291c51a34f23a9465700edc0388b\u0022\u003EDr Emily Henderson\u003C/span\u003E: How do those who receive this support feel about their current situation following these changes to the welfare system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a6d247acdcc4061a5a622932c5d91d2\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: Max Rashbrooke spoke to a range of people. One man was Paul Clutterbuck, a 50-year-old Wellingtonian living with multiple rare health conditions. [Interruption] We take this person\u2019s situation very seriously, unlike the other side of the House. Mr Clutterbuck expressed his support for the changes this Government has made, stating, \u201CI\u2019m grateful for the improvement since Labour came into office.\u201D He noted that until the recent benefit increases made by this Government his disposable income had \u201Cstagnated terribly\u201D for several decades.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002217bfa49a-da49-4001-9466-0b4bfd70b3f3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c593d7b4c13346e78c88bc21060859da\u0022\u003EDr Emily Henderson\u003C/span\u003E: And what further changes is the Government making this year to improve outcomes for those most in need?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e303779ee0f477fbef80a802bfcae0f\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: From 1 April this year, we\u2019re rolling out further support to 1.4\u00A0million New Zealanders, including families, seniors, caregivers, students, workers, and those on main benefits. Examples include 646,000 children who will be better off through increases to Working for Families tax credits. In Budget 2023, we continued with the support, including 20 hours free early childhood education for two-year-olds, scrapping $5 prescription fees, and free public transport for under-13s, with half-price for under-25s. While these measures won\u2019t solve everything, they will help to ease some of the pressure. And right now, every bit counts when making ends meet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022202367f8ee594dcbb8bac0e94228f07f\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Corrections\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6da3ae3aa704008bcb5cce2fba0cdef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6da3ae3aa704008bcb5cce2fba0cdef\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te Paati M\u0101ori)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Corrections: What actions, if any, is he taking in response to a recent report from the independent Office of the Inspectorate which found that 29 percent of all prisoners experienced solitary confinement over a 12month period, seriously impacting on the wellbeing of people in prison and their families?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022 data-id=\u002246eeb5a52c1c49e8b2ae4d37f582a744\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246eeb5a52c1c49e8b2ae4d37f582a744\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s always my expectation that Corrections manages prisoners safely and humanely. Corrections\u2019 front-line staff work with some of the most challenging people in society, so isolation is a necessary tool in prisons to ensure both staff and prisoners\u2019 safety, especially as this investigation was conducted from October 2020 to September\u00A02021, during the COVID pandemic. Staff have obligations to public safety, the safety of their colleagues, and the welfare of prisoners. That can, at times, lead to choices with very limited options. However, I absolutely agree with the report that being isolated for longer periods of time can have a negative impact on the prisoner and their wh\u0101nau, and more needs to be done to minimise that. Corrections has accepted all seven of the report\u2019s recommendations, and I\u2019ll work to ensure that both the short- and long-term responses to the recommendations progress as quickly as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e60268ecff36486a9b835eb5f28d7116\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Does he believe that it is acceptable that a significant number of prisoners\u2014disproportionately M\u0101ori\u2014experience solitary confinement for months on end, and, in some cases, in excess of a year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f50ba271c3b54e3a81c0628f25b08211\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m always concerned about the over-representation of M\u0101ori in prison and related statistics, which is why I launched a new strategy for Corrections in 2019 with a significant focus on this issue, but this is something that requires long-term change across the justice system, and I\u2019ve made my expectations clear that Corrections manages all prisoners safely and humanely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edd02fc3f2e94627b4b6d84a63358a15\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: So what is he doing about the fact that these findings confirmed that Aotearoa is in breach of international law\u2014the Nelson Mandela Rules, which prohibit solitary confinement in excess of 15 days\u2014and is H\u014Dkai Rangi working?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209e8eec384644814a77da0b505c58f2a\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9c9d4187a1c4cdb8141a56d841a1530\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: How can he expect that prisoners will receive the necessary rehabilitation and recovery support in order to reduce reoffending and risk to communities if they are stuck in solitary confinement, which has been proven to cause depression, anxiety, panic attacks, anger, irritability, perceptual distortion, and paranoia?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c1970095a634b7db5f7cba6c9266b49\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s quite a lot in there, so I\u2019ll address one part of it. We are making progress. In terms of the M\u0101ori resentencing rate, that has decreased by 6.4\u00A0percentage points from 2014 and 2015 to 2021 and 2022, and the M\u0101ori re-imprisonment rate has dropped nearly 5 percent in the same period, while all the while, the overall M\u0101ori imprisonment rate has declined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e410a8df213341bb893b985ddeb37dd2\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: When will he be able to guarantee to this House that staff shortages in Corrections are not contributing to human rights offences in prisons, such as extended solitary confinement and refusing wh\u0101nau visitation, or does he think staff shortages are an acceptable excuse to breach basic human rights?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022802874a3-deca-48b7-9d33-9087058892f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d35067d1871543158b03c74fd76125e5\u0022\u003EHon KELVIN DAVIS\u003C/span\u003E: No, but I will say that in terms of visitation, the visitation rates are similar to when the M\u0101ori Party was in Government, and they had an Associate Minister of Corrections, but also in terms of visitation, there have been over 3,000 audiovisual link visits, which, in many cases, prisoners and their wh\u0101nau prefer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223637bc2663d44bbba34f79c2f624dd44\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Sorry, I don\u2019t think that the question has been answered. It was quite specific and asked when. We did get a good spiel about what the Minister has attempted to do, but we didn\u2019t get an answer to the \u201Cwhen\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d00098f51c14dd0ab1cf17fa6c61d25\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I ask the member to go back to the Hansard, and I think the first word answered the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228cf1f5e2fe844cceac35803e377d89c1\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u00228eee28e8a8c944b78da0e8e555182159\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228eee28e8a8c944b78da0e8e555182159\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER LUXON (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f48013fb2fcc46f2aaae4f73f33a7d31\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f48013fb2fcc46f2aaae4f73f33a7d31\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, particularly the decision to initiate a market study into personal banking services to ensure the market is working well for New Zealanders. The Commerce Commission study will be completed by the end of August 2024, with a preliminary issues paper expected in August this year. It\u2019ll examine barriers to new competitors, the introduction of innovative products and services, and consumers\u2019 ability to switch between banks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e2fc7bd9e504df0a9d88f97d48aa367\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his admission last year that \u201Cthe Government needs to do more to tackle gang crime\u201D, and has he failed when gangs are taking over State highways and shutting down schools?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8d0fb2da3674bfeb258347fc2fc8dc3\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the first part of the question, yes, I absolutely do, and I am very proud of the work that the Government did to bring a bill to the House to give police more powers to crack down on gangs. That bill, that new law, was used for the first time in \u014Cp\u014Dtiki, and the gangs are facing the consequences of their actions because of the law change that we have put through Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7b0e5a363c04338a7d2c3b1e18d31fb\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: When he said \u201Cgang convoys suck for everybody [who\u2019s] disrupted by them\u201D, why won\u2019t he give police dispersal powers so they can actually stop gangs from taking over a State highway in the middle of the day and blocking law-abiding Kiwis from going about their business?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022241f7100875f42dd82eec825215f5b1c\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: As I indicated, we went through the process of identifying what the best tools were that were going to help the police whilst also protecting the safety of police as well, and the law change that we put through the Parliament is giving them extra tools in their fight against gang crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e5ebe6cd174420cb0bf2a1fc2d2ef0d\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Why does this Government continue to allow gangs to shut down a State highway for two hours when he said last year, \u201Cgang activities have been totally unacceptable and our communities deserve [so much] better\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7a7d8ca2ca34317b63a910f1094c806\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I absolutely stand by my statement that that type of activity is totally unacceptable, and we are backing the police to do the difficult job that they have ahead of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f5b7275c0dd496b8789ddfacd0d968e\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Well then, why, despite all his talk on gangs, is violent crime up 33 percent, gang membership up 66 percent, and Kiwis don\u2019t feel safe in their own homes, their own businesses, their own communities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238ddd22efb9546ceba036249f6d24b3b\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I note, when the member talks about violent crime and Kiwis not feeling safe in their own homes, one of the biggest drivers of the increase in violent crime has been increased reporting of domestic and family violence, something the National Party pretends doesn\u2019t exist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fc6eb3e329148dc84786b3582da186f\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: What responsibility does he take for the record number of Kiwis turning to foodbanks because his Government increased spending by 80 percent, driving inflation and interest rates up through the roof, and now has driven the economy into recession?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258bc6fc246b04bbcb7fdb0a66068924b\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The question asked simply is not credible. In fact, New Zealand\u2019s rate of inflation has been below the OECD average for much of the period in question. There is an international inflationary pandemic at the moment. New Zealand is supporting people through that, including those on the lowest incomes. I note that the members opposite think we have done too much to support people on the lowest incomes through the current cost of living crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227817aa03314b4d84889cf7582e3bb5cc\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: Doesn\u2019t he understand that his spending, which has pushed up inflation and interest rates and now driven New Zealand into recession, means that Kiwis can\u2019t meet their debt payments, they\u2019re lining up at foodbanks in record numbers, and they\u2019re cancelling their kids\u2019 activities to pay their mortgages?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287d5d84e41f346dea70ea95a048b1eb4\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I do note the member\u2019s trying to rewrite history here, in the sense that, as the inflationary spike started, the National Party continued to argue for more and more Government spending. In fact, we can go through the time line, where they were saying we weren\u2019t doing enough to support New Zealand through the events of COVID-19 and we needed to spend more money. Despite the fact that the warning signs of inflation were already there, the National Party at the time didn\u2019t seem to take much notice of those and was arguing the Government should spend more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022000a8a8db3b5426c8e83355c5ba69166\u0022\u003EChristopher Luxon\u003C/span\u003E: What does he say to Kiwis actually skipping meals because they can\u2019t afford food prices that his inflationary policies have driven up?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b40810d2dc84dba9a1e351edddd6cf9\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I would remind them that the National Party hasn\u2019t supported any of the measures that this Government has put in place to support those on the lowest incomes through the current cost of living crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4b3c5b43a764ce083cc51b7830272d0\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Whakarongo mai, k\u014Drero te reo M\u0101ori. He M\u0101ori ahau m\u014D ng\u0101 kaupapa hauora. [Listen up as I speak in te reo M\u0101ori. I am a M\u0101ori for health contexts.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb899fc28e2440ca9e0e3ed216a441b9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is that a supplementary question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216e7628a37324378b5577401cbfcb179\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2461b5a02024837b67ba6cd8a7597e4\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I didn\u2019t hear a question in that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022822dcfe50b8a4b40a3b7367053ddaf44\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, neither did I\u2014that\u2019s why I asked. I heard a statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022986b19f310b74aa0a07f5b19a4fa5259\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m very happy to repeat it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3295c7270c240e89697c54ab62f1df6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If you have a supplementary, please ask it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022344344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283886a78d4864ea8a6b7b39117c3345c\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: He M\u0101ori ahau m\u014D ng\u0101 kaupapa hauora? [I am a M\u0101ori for health contexts?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227658d24ec7cb49568368c676f3edd840\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: He M\u0101ori hoki ahau engari ehara t\u0113r\u0101 i te p\u0101tai. [I am also a M\u0101ori but that is not a question.] Are there any more supplementary questions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281e08926dcbf417ca637701b70f3ab87\u0022\u003ENicole McKee\u003C/span\u003E: Is it acceptable to him that, as a M\u0101ori woman, I could be placed higher on a surgical wait-list than someone of a different ethnicity, even if our clinical need, time spent on the wait-list, location, and deprivation levels are the same?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022380530a887c8487cb366e1baa6b742f4\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The member misses the whole thrust of the debate that\u2019s been had in the last 24 hours. We are talking about people who have been on a wait-list for more than two years, where there is clear evidence that if someone is M\u0101ori, if someone is a Pacific Islander, if they are from a rural community, or if they are from a low-income background, they have been languishing for longer on the wait-lists than people who don\u2019t fit those descriptors. The fact that the health system is ensuring that those with clinical need who fit those four descriptors are not being discriminated against is surely something the member should welcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247220d27811e402ea4cec5f26aed7fd4\u0022\u003EKaren Chhour\u003C/span\u003E: Is it acceptable to him that my Cambodian husband could be placed lower on a surgical wait-list than me, even if our clinical needs are the same, our time spent on the wait-list, location, deprivation level are the same; and, if not, why is ethnicity a factor on the surgical wait-list equity adjustor?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f43b681e1a445f089bab9185accb181\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: To speak to the member\u2019s personal circumstances, I think it\u2019s wrong that that member will have previously been placed lower on the list than her husband. I don\u2019t think that\u2019s acceptable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b90488d706ae436a9466f30d44c08392\u0022\u003EHon Nanaia Mahuta\u003C/span\u003E: Is it acceptable that a New Zealander with co-morbidities, living in a rural area, will be treated differently; and is that the case under the current system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022289872461639413598b5d2d6a63c669e\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: There is clear evidence that people who are M\u0101ori, who are Pasifika, who are living in a rural community or who are from a low-income background have been disadvantaged by the health system wait-list. They have been on the wait-list for the same clinical reasons for longer than other New Zealanders who don\u2019t fit those descriptions. That is discrimination; it\u2019s not acceptable. The fact that the health system is working to remove that discrimination is a good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022423b7025dac1417cb3f49a08c9ff7225\u0022\u003EDr James McDowall\u003C/span\u003E: Is it acceptable to him that my five-year-old, half-Chinese daughter could be placed lower on a surgical wait-list than someone else with the same clinical need, time spent on the wait-list, location, and deprivation level due to her ethnicity; and if not, why is ethnicity a factor on the surgical wait-list\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ebbb399fb274ec4b352d6f2a3e9d147\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022430238abfc4a45899a838c335b07cb33\u0022\u003EDr James McDowall\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014equity adjustor? Thanks for letting me finish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258882df304ab4e9793fdbc1ebcda1485\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, I asked for your guidance back on 12\u00A0May\u00A02021, and, through you, Mr Speaker\u2014it was from David Wilson\u2014an update to all of us from the Speaker then, who talked about a ruling of people taking care, as they express themselves, to think of the wider consequences when they do. The nature of these questions are absolutely intended to raise racist opinions amongst the New Zealand public, and I ask you, Mr Speaker\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acc0239ebb01407ca97d47b28bbb8456\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5be5c2f84f04caaa2b4c7cbdf494a20\u0022\u003EDamien Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab394761899247f1b923f4f09bb84500\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, sit down. I\u2019m going to rule on this. That is a very serious accusation that the member has made. The first part of it I disagree with in this instance. To carry on to make an accusation, as you did, I\u2019m contemplating sending you out. It\u2019s a discussion that perhaps this House should have one day, but you cannot make that accusation in this House. You will stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3c33cfe029147b9b57b629222c44d3a\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: I stand, withdraw, and apologise. Point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022536c0cc78ada4dc5be87f2a40c66b957\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, do it properly. No, no, no. I\u2019ll give you one more chance. You do it properly, you can stay.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264303351a75f423da75c0fe742443b09\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229ec542194f64947b22b9b10ad69f04f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, you\u2019re going to apologise correctly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5091e65ffdb49acbc60297823a835d0\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: I stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbf4fca2fa554ceca4d40a345c043a8f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You can leave the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5d5df59668047e18b4a9d04a138b5ae\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222870c1bdb3f941d292471527eb48a776\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You will leave the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson withdrew from the Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022b95965462e954566a914535e12cc0a6d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b95965462e954566a914535e12cc0a6d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Dr McDowall, can you ask your question again?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022450450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcbc29d3f6b84380b79604caf5a64c83\u0022\u003EDr JAMES McDOWALL\u003C/span\u003E: To the Prime Minister, is it acceptable to him that my five-year-old half-Chinese daughter could be placed lower on a surgical wait-list than someone else with the same clinical need, time spent on the wait-list, location, and deprivation level due to her ethnicity; and, if not, why is ethnicity a factor on the surgical wait-list equity adjustment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1ed76b71773478cbbd27be2e89645d7\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: My answer to that question is the same as to the last one, although, I will correct that and say that, generally speaking, I have not commented on members\u2019 family situations in answers to questions, and I was wrong to do so in the last answer and I won\u2019t do so again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237e5c5e72dbd4e3182dd297a8da69efa\u0022\u003EDamien Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Is it acceptable to him that the migrant workers\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022076ab8a15cd448638ea79860f4b188fd\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I\u2019ve had this ruling before, it\u2019s really important that members ask\u2014are able to scrutinise everything that the Government does. If the Government doesn\u2019t want to be scrutinised, that\u2019s the message you are giving right now by interrupting, interjecting while questions are being asked. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e494940b39db4058a1985f5771ccabb8\u0022\u003EDAMIEN SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Is it acceptable to him that the migrant workers, without whom the health system would collapse, could be deprioritised on surgical wait-lists because they don\u2019t have a M\u0101ori or Pasifika ancestry, and, if not, why is ethnicity a factor on the surgical wait-list equity adjustor? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229290dedb542248d2b0d7417def4e263c\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I notice the member has not yet raised anyone from rural communities or low-income backgrounds and the ACT Party don\u2019t seem to be raising any examples in that regard. I think it is wrong that people from M\u0101ori backgrounds, from Pacific backgrounds, from rural backgrounds, from low-income backgrounds have been discriminated against in the wait-list system. I think it is correct that the health system ensures that segments of the population are not being discriminated against. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279018ab139b743baaf64782e01af0115\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Kia ora, thank you, e te M\u0101ngai. I refer to the House rules which prevents members conducting debates in certain ways that create disorder and lead to disorder because of racism or implied racism. It is not M\u0101ori\u2019s fault that we die seven years earlier; it is not M\u0101ori\u2019s fault that we live in systemic racism. This is a debate that is about systemic racism. It is not about the Government being held to account, and Te Paati M\u0101ori object to the way that it is going.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4af501bc97e4aa18c3ff880a826b3af\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This is not a debate; this is question time where members of this House get to ask questions of the Government and the Government has the opportunity to answer them, which it has been doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224429466756cb4e9492a81c6e9ce18dbb\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Ki a koe, he M\u0101ori ahau m\u014D ng\u0101 kaupapa hauora? [To you, in regards to health issues, am I considered as M\u0101ori?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c554286bd789428ea0d6bc84f8698e13\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: There was no translation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201946ac8f9d84b1bb181e6cc32ec5a49\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, ki taku nei m\u014Dhio, [Well, as far as I know,] this is my interpretation of what the member is saying. The members can listen to the\u2014but I\u2019m going to preside over as if the member has said to you, \u201CDo you consider me to be a M\u0101ori?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291daa186ca9b451daaf91b30f7ebfef4\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The member can make his own judgment about what ethnicity he is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022207e643301d743ed9b2b914c4553294e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022 data-id=\u0022b875d611387941108642137e3b475e04\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b875d611387941108642137e3b475e04\u0022\u003EDr ANAE NERU LEAVASA (Labour\u2014Takanini)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What recent announcement has the Government made about increasing the number of first-year medical school places?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u002288a4451c52de42d1a1f1695747a383f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288a4451c52de42d1a1f1695747a383f0\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Last week, I was proud to announce that funding for medical school enrolments will be increased by 50 places, to 589 places annually beginning in 2024. Training more medical students will help us grow our medical workforce over time, ensuring we can provide sustainable public healthcare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6560fc83d134b2a81997823ed7e3ea7\u0022\u003EDr Anae Neru Leavasa\u003C/span\u003E: Why has the Government increased the number of first-year medical school places?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1e2b14ae3d74053987dc62dc16ddff8\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: To build a sustainable workforce, we must grow and invest in our domestic doctors, especially where there is global competition for internationally trained doctors. We are growing the number of doctors trained in New Zealand to help meet the needs of our population and to ensure health equity across the country. We want to train and retain as many local health workers as possible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022889aafc608c64291989478883190d24f\u0022\u003EDr Anae Neru Leavasa\u003C/span\u003E: How will this change support the Government\u2019s priorities in health?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b29e96a82a14656b743ea5cab39228b\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: The funding for medical school enrolments is one of a range of investments the Government is making in the health workforce to ensure all New Zealanders can access the medical care they need, when and where they need it. Workforce is a key priority for the Government. We are working on long-term plans to ensure a sustainable, representative, and responsive workforce to meet the future needs of New Zealanders no matter who they are and where they live.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e5576ce-ac6e-42fa-8d46-bdec9ba3ec7c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c284f4f3a744c78874eda550a5aca84\u0022\u003EDr Anae Neru Leavasa\u003C/span\u003E: What feedback has been received about this announcement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022269de78d29d24af79f8b97002f08d178\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: This announcement has been received very positively by the sector. Professor Tim Wilkinson, Otago Medical School\u2019s Acting Dean, said it was \u201Ca significant investment\u201D, and Professor Warwick Bagg, from the University of Auckland\u2019s Faculty of Medical and Health Sciences, said that \u201Cthe funding for these extra places is a great start to strengthening our domestic workforce and responding to the health needs of all New Zealanders.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b551a22a1cf644e19538cccf1c380f6d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4d0390833b94d128761e7a6b41db873\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4d0390833b94d128761e7a6b41db873\u0022\u003ENICOLA WILLIS (Deputy Leader\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What was the change in GDP per capita in each of the past two quarters, and does he agree that, by that measure, the New Zealand economy is going backwards?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00223cdbbca6b9bc4a749b098c7f8ac3e440\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223cdbbca6b9bc4a749b098c7f8ac3e440\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E In the March 2023 quarter, real GDP per capita was down 0.7 percent from December, and in the December quarter it was down 1.1 percent from September. However, on an annual basis, Stats New Zealand reported that real GDP per capita in the March quarter was up 2.4 percent from a year ago following annual growth of 2.4 percent in the December quarter. In answer to the second part of the question, this is a tough time for many New Zealand households. New Zealand\u2019s real GDP per capita is rising on an annual basis\u2014indeed, on both quarterly and yearly measures\u2014and real GDP per capita has risen faster under this Government compared to the previous Government, but we will continue to support New Zealanders through this challenging time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244a966ade02f4621beab119e84a1a087\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Was Labour Party finance spokesperson Grant Robertson correct in 2017 when he said: \u201Cwe got the last quarter\u2019s growth, and once again GDP per capita fell\u2014two quarters in a row of GDP per capita falling. And so per person \u2026 New Zealand is going backwards\u201D, and why is it different this time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281314cf4eb8e4c33baf80edc7abf7c52\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: That handsome, young, somewhat na\u00EFve member at the time\u2014no, I recall that line of questioning very accurately and the response I got referred me to \u201Cyearly\u201D rather than \u201Cquarterly\u201D results, because quarterly results show considerable volatility. Nowadays, I bear that in mind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b825f4194f79473ca5c304884c880a83\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Well, was Labour Party finance spokesperson Grant Robertson correct in 2016 when he said that flat GDP per capita was \u201Cthe story of a complacent, out-of-touch Government\u201D; and, if so, what does it say about his Government, which just oversaw per capita GDP declining for two quarters in a row?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267df286d19094e09bf76cd7bae9d1f1c\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Look, I can help the member out\u2014if this is going to be the line of supplementary questions\u2014in that the answer to: \u201CWas Grant Robertson the Labour finance spokesperson correct?\u201D is generally \u201CYes\u201D, and if there are further questions in that line, that will be the answer. In terms of the second part of the member\u2019s question, about that particular Government at that particular time being complacent, absolutely that Government was complacent at that time. They were failing to invest properly in the skills of New Zealanders, they were failing to invest properly in research and development, they\u2019d become complacent about international trade agreements, and all the many things that make up productivity. So, absolutely, that man was correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e68dd38f6fe246b68e698807eba1c0e0\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the reflection Grant Robertson shared in Parliament in 2016 that \u201CWe only grow our share of the economic cake when GDP per capita grows, otherwise we are running hard to stay still.\u201D; and isn\u2019t it the case that with his complacent, anti-growth policies, Kiwis are running harder to stay still?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225824a80d33c34986b8556faf14ea5483\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: The member is completely incorrect. This was a Budget that increased investment in our science and innovation sector. This was a Budget that increased investment in skills. This is a Government that has signed on to important free-trade agreements with the European Union, with the United Kingdom. This is a Government that continues to support businesses and to support individuals in our community to succeed and thrive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b07b6e83d8bf4bd38a9af58bf9afd7b5\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Is he aware that New Zealand\u2019s decline in GDP per capita in the past six months was worse than in a range of European countries, including those struggling with major energy challenges following the Ukraine conflict, including Germany and the United Kingdom\u2014why is it so much worse in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273195d2fd5974fee81f09d7159eee8dc\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: This is an occasion to be able to refer to annualised figures, because different countries are at different points in their recovery from the COVID pandemic. It is right to say that New Zealand\u2019s annual GDP is up 2.9 percent, higher than the long-run average; compared to the same quarter a year ago, it is 2.2 percent larger. If we compare to those other countries on that basis, Australia is at 2.3 percent, Canada joins us at 2.2 percent, and the countries in the European area that she refers to have 1.3 percent. It is true that countries are at different stages, but when we do compare it annually, the results are a little different to what the member says.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298ff6d85a2ec4baa9cee686958ba615e\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Is he aware that New Zealand\u2019s 1.8 percent decline in GDP per capita in the past two quarters is comparable to the decline that occurred in New Zealand during the absolute peak of the global financial crisis, and does he take responsibility for delivering an economy with record inflation, rising interest rates, a record current account deficit, and declining per capita GDP?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266b945b13ca34ccda5aec73d86137a58\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: What I take responsibility for is an economy that is 6\u00A0percent larger than it was before COVID, has unemployment at 3.4 percent, and has debt at a level lower than most of the countries that we compare ourselves to. As the Prime Minister indicated in an earlier question, New Zealand\u2019s inflation rate has sat around the bottom third of the OECD over the last few years. This is a global inflation process. Many New Zealand households are doing it tough during this period. That\u2019s why I\u2019m proud that the Government has supported those households, unlike the member\u2019s party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222bf446b902046a6bccfd16c23956b0c\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does he believe it\u2019s sustainable for GDP to be supported by a $33\u00A0billion a year current account deficit, or does he admit he\u2019s putting the economy on after-pay: borrow now, pay next generation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff33e684baa7455891b4707bf671b8f7\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealand\u2019s current account deficit is a longstanding challenge. I do note in the latest statistics, it is starting to come down and it is forecast to continue in that direction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224afc0e3718194e67aa4d9d56bb3ad22d\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: How can he say with a straight face that the current account deficit is a longstanding challenge when the last three quarters under his economic management have been the worst current account deficits since records began under Sir Roger Douglas in 1988?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1d780ab73234f35aea4b5a15be8209c\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I point the member to a couple of factors. Firstly, we have faced an extraordinary challenge on the supply side of the New Zealand economy which has contributed to that, including also higher interest rates globally in addition to the hangover from COVID. Secondly, if the member wants to make those kinds of comparisons, he should look at New Zealand\u2019s international investment position, because that was the concern in the last times that we have seen the current account deficit rise in the way that it has in recent years. Actually, the advice that I\u2019ve had is that since 2009, New Zealand\u2019s international investment position has been sufficiently strong to in fact counter the impacts of the current account deficit widening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d5cc3e2acb84a668df277bfb3e70e7d\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: How can he look Kiwis in the eye and blame the current economic performance on the floods, the cyclone, COVID, Vladimir Putin, or anyone else that comes to mind when Auckland University economics professor Robert McCulloch recently said that this was blatantly untrue and that he \u201Cdoesn\u2019t know what planet Grant Robertson is on.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200b3ad1824a24dbfa105cdc872f29373\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s the same planet that Sharon Zollner, the chief economist for ANZ is inhabiting, because she said the same thing\u2014that, actually, the quarter\u2019s numbers would have been positive if it weren\u2019t for the weather events.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3b7ebcb7a8c47508031cd7323b1693e\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Why does that finance Minister persist in taking credit for positive economic indicators yet refuse all responsibility for every negative indicator, and is it in fact the case that when measured by the cost of living, per capita GDP, and interest rates, the standard of living for individual New Zealanders is declining on his watch?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cb6cf1d5a29484ca59f71f48e3e9847\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I stand proudly by the record of this Government, for taking New Zealand through the greatest economic shock since World War II in a way that has left us at the end with unemployment at 3.4 percent, with our economy 6 percent larger, with our level of debt at a level that other countries would be proud to have. There have been many decisions to have made over the last few years. None of them were costless. This was a challenge that every county had to face, and when we compare ourselves against those countries, I believe we can be proud of our record.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225a1028c839d24c8c9e2c0649fb0e91be\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Forestry\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u00222a3846ed4e4e48669792bce7b4f2d2f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a3846ed4e4e48669792bce7b4f2d2f6\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Forestry: What recent forestry announcement has the Government made regarding the New Zealand emissions trading scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f268a463cb7e4ca483e838655eae0b28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f268a463cb7e4ca483e838655eae0b28\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Minister of Forestry):\u003C/span\u003E This Government acknowledges the importance that the forestry sector plays in our economy, worth approximately $6 billion annually and provides over 40,000 jobs to this country. Yesterday, alongside the Minister for Climate Change, James Shaw\u2014we both announced that public consultation opens for the redesigning of the permanent forest category.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b374c19e6454ed1ab9638f3e9e6ae82\u0022\u003EHon Phil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: What is the importance of this announcement? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f92b96c10ce47bb802c0597f3794708\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Last year, the Government consulted on proposals to restrict permanent exotic forests in the New Zealand emissions trading scheme (ETS) in response to concerns about the impacts on the environment and rural communities from these forests. The proposals generated wide interest prompting the Government to look further into the permanent forest category. This announcement ensures that we work alongside our valued communities, iwi M\u0101ori, local government, and the forestry sector to redesign the permanent forestry category. This announcement complements the recently announced changes to the National Environmental Standards for Plantation Forestry that will give locals and communities more control over deciding which land can be used for plantation and carbon forests. The proposals being consulted on consider the overall incentives driving afforestation and aim to help ensure the right types of forests are in the right locations and for the right reasons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcb1c5a255bc493b9d03bc41ec01b68c\u0022\u003EHon Phil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: How does this announcement fit into the wider ETS announcement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca738a86d63143899d6f63e2e36b2905\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: We need to act now to tackle climate change and we need to use every single tool available to us. The NZ ETS is our main tool for meeting our domestic and international climate change obligations. There needs to be a strong role for forestry in our climate change strategy and we need to make sure that people also pollute less forests, store carbon, helping to address climate change by reducing Aotearoa New Zealand\u2019s net greenhouse emissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8d61138a7784fe9bb103a70abd0ce1d\u0022\u003EHon Phil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: What is being proposed to guide the redesign of the permanent category?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d0cc049b73c49f79c28b0e7425361e1\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: The three key design choices that guide the redesign of the permanent forest category are (1) what forests should be allowed in the permanent forest category, (2) how a transition forest should be managed to best ensure a successful transition, and (3) what rules will best maximise the benefits of permanent forests in that category. The consultation is an opportunity for New Zealanders to boost the benefits of permanent forests for the climate, environment, and landowners, while also minimising the risk of these forests in the same areas. I encourage all involved in the forestry sector and communities around the country to have their say on this very important matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ab4034f347404105bc3269750f40d331\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u00224bed71e351134677a376d78cb787dc8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224bed71e351134677a376d78cb787dc8e\u0022\u003EDr SHANE RETI (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: How much weighting will be given to the ethnicity component of the equity adjuster for surgical wait-lists, and what other parts of the health system, if any, has she looked at applying the adjuster to? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea88de0806fa420f8c02e7366d50ac10\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea88de0806fa420f8c02e7366d50ac10\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E To the first part of the question, the most influential factor in how a patient is scheduled is how severe their condition is as determined by their doctor. For a clinically high-priority procedure, the other variables will have almost no weight in the algorithm and, therefore, would not influence a person\u2019s wait time. The second most influential factor is the number of days the patient has already been waiting. After that, the equity adjuster seeks to stop some groups from languishing on the long tail of the wait-list. Ethnicity, deprivation, and being from a rural area are the other factors taken into account. As I have already said to that member, including in written questions, the weightings are dynamic, so a specific weighting for ethnicity cannot be given. The weighting of elements varies between clinical specialities to make sure that clinical priority remains the primary element. To the second part of the question, no, I have not looked at applying the equity adjuster to other parts of the health system, beyond planned care. I remind the member that this initiative was developed by northern region clinicians and managers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d661a9799ef746dc83dee097af01d1e9\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Who is correct: the Prime Minister this morning suggesting that the equity adjuster is just for Auckland and Northland, or the Minister, who stated in written answers that there would be a national roll-out? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247cc2a7f046f4654b33f6a74f0f660c4\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister has asked me to look at if the equity adjuster is working as intended, and I will do that before any national roll-out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c83012b4-3939-4753-80fc-1956a3e2bd1e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfecb5652396473e8ff68889bc686e29\u0022\u003EHon Michael Woodhouse\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. That was not in any way addressing the question Dr Reti asked. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022918b2e013c244941af37918a7b8d9545\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll ask Dr Reti to ask the question again. I think it\u2019s a close call, but\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022089b0bfc90f34ec0b800a262bb505fbe\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Who is correct: the Prime Minister this morning suggesting that the equity adjuster is just for Auckland and Northland, or the Minister, who stated in written answers that there would be a national roll-out? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf1cd9a17a874690ad67b8bc16ac2f99\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: The equity adjuster is in use in two hospitals in the northern region. The Prime Minister has asked me to look at if it is being used in the way intended, and there are no further plans for a national roll-out until I am assured of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc8976782a04490a8d16c07919e661c5\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Which two hospitals? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a16648bf2c0482f8f383d7e6b3398d9\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: Auckland City Hospital, and I am advised the other one is Middlemore. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232a59dd529ea4657a091352424c41a38\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Health New Zealand business support manager correct when he wrote to clinicians that priority on the surgical wait-list will be 200 days for M\u0101ori and 250 days for nonM\u0101ori; if not, why not? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229266261084e242b98e0b1558f6bd82e1\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: That statement doesn\u2019t really make sense, and I\u2019d need additional context to be able to help interpret it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e041a1b2c0c741a4844ebdd2ae62bea0\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: Did she say that the weighting adjuster is dynamic and will change day by day? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296731b517bda4de68bc22b3aab4d9bf1\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right, because, obviously, if you have waited for longer, it is more important that you get your procedure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba76307d1778447997f8829357838dbe\u0022\u003EDr Shane Reti\u003C/span\u003E: When does she intend to roll out the equity adjuster for first specialist appointments, as indicated in her reply to written question No. 14489, or has this now been delayed as a result of the Prime Minister\u2019s request that she assure him that the equity adjuster is not replacing one form of discrimination with another? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217cf5e3b70dd4618b844c04ad33987c3\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: As I have said, the Prime Minister has asked me to check that the equity adjuster is working in the way it\u2019s intended, and that\u2019s what I\u2019ll do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a4f55768f5b748faa7ea92669e477299\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Police\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u00225936fc9a7bda4c2bae9dd8ecb8b14217\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225936fc9a7bda4c2bae9dd8ecb8b14217\u0022\u003ENICOLE McKEE (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: Does she stand by her statement that \u201CIt is my view that New Zealanders feel safer with a Government on track to deliver 1,800 extra police\u201D; if so, why, when gangs have recruited close to twice as many members in the nearly six years it took to recruit those extra police?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u00223cb7b8a10ffb4964a05f7b5322416d81\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223cb7b8a10ffb4964a05f7b5322416d81\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E To the first part of the member\u2019s question, yes, in the context it was given. The alternative would be to not have 1,800 additional police. To the second part of the question, I\u2019ve always been clear about the challenges that both gangs and organised criminal groups present in our communities, but it is exactly the reason why this Government has enacted legislation to crack down on gangs, which, in the past week in \u014Cp\u014Dtiki, saw 26 vehicles seized, four firearms seized, 11 offensive weapons seized, and nine gang members arrested\u2014all of this under new gang conflict warrants that did not exist before April.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d06ab54aed2949229111136c8c51e73b\u0022\u003ENicole McKee\u003C/span\u003E: Does she think that New Zealanders feel safer when there is an average of two gang-related firearm offences every day this year to mid-May, and does she think that they will feel safer with the implementation of the firearms registry, knowing that gang members won\u2019t be using it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022586c898ba96c469ea0144035e7bcea35\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: I would never be so bold as to speak on behalf of all New Zealanders, but I will say that this Government is cracking down on organised crime in three main ways. The first main way is through legislation, through the Criminal Activity Intervention Legislation Bill, through introducing a firearms prohibition orders ability to put those most dangerous individuals away from weapons, and also introducing new legislation around those driving and fleeing. By introducing a firearms registry, which will go live at the end of this month, it will be able to map, for the first time, where all firearms are in New Zealand. I believe that this is a good way to find out where the guns are and make sure they are out of the hands of those organised criminal groups who are a danger to our community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0bc5f9345994a77a8296eaa20c1c3e7\u0022\u003ENicole McKee\u003C/span\u003E: Does she think that New Zealanders feel safer when youth gang membership is up 700 percent over five years to April 2023, and youth gang members have, on average, 26 offences under their belt by the time they turn 18 years old?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221231ece8042e416e8560d982d80fba37\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: I have been clear that the level of youth offending occurring in New Zealand right now is completely unacceptable, but it is for that very reason that this Government has introduced and rolled out further programmes like \u201Ccircuit breaker\u201D and Kotahi te Whakaaro. These programmes show that 72 percent of young people going through those programmes do not go on to offend. I call that success.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e14a40b0a6444088a63cfa931aba41fe\u0022\u003ENicole McKee\u003C/span\u003E: Does she think New Zealanders feel safer when the overwhelming gang presence in \u014Cp\u014Dtiki recently resulted in schools shutting down for the week?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1b6b68e58444ce590e7cb392ab42222\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: I have zero tolerance for the harm and intimidation caused by gangs in our community. The operation in \u014Cp\u014Dtiki, where police used new powers under the Criminal Activity Intervention Legislation Act meant that those communities were safe. I was pleased to see that there was not any harm done to individual people, and that is a result of those front-line police officers doing their job well and using the new powers that they had access to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bacbd380fe2546998f803aa492461c5a\u0022\u003ENicole McKee\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Mongrel Mob pay for a traffic management plan when it shut down the streets in \u014Cp\u014Dtiki, and if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022684397d697a34b5b8b6fa2b217bdbc48\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d4f09711ca4448809ce685b0464b3883\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Workplace Relations and Safety\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022f995e0e45bc9480ebdc6398804451424\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f995e0e45bc9480ebdc6398804451424\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety: What recent announcement has she made about more financial support for parents?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u0022b658d24c862c4577a6496b811f028d32\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b658d24c862c4577a6496b811f028d32\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Associate Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Our Government has a proud track record of supporting parents and families. Since we took office, we have extended paid parental leave from 18 to 26 weeks, made GP visits free for children aged 13 and under, extended 20 hours\u2019 free early childhood education to two-year-olds as well, and scrapped prescription fees. I was proud to build on that track record yesterday when I announced that the Government will be putting an extra $51 per week into the pockets of new parents. That\u2019s an additional $1,327 for those taking the full 26 weeks of parental leave, and just another example of our commitment to supporting parents and families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276f01db48ef74f9f959695d6c7c0fe54\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: How will this benefit parents and families?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5b96f0e13f3465b812702f6183fe0e8\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN\u003C/span\u003E: We know it\u2019s tough for families right now, but the Chris Hipkins Government is committed to supporting Kiwi families to have a bit more in their pocket and ease some of the pressures that they\u2019re facing. These changes will raise the parental leave payment by 7.7 percent to reflect the rise in average wage. Eligible parents will see an increase in the parental leave payment from $661.12 per week to $712.17 per week before tax. The minimum rate for self-employed parents will also increase to $227 per week, which is equal to 10 hours of the minimum wage for an adult worker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f54487e64fc347f1ac641d7e42984834\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: How many people will benefit from these changes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227346b9f004ca426d96d9dcef4797ec5e\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN\u003C/span\u003E: These increases will support a large number of families. We know, for example, that 56,200 people received paid parental leave payments in 2022. This is a Government committed to making sure that families receive the support they need with this important investment, enabling parents to focus on their newborns in their early days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca2873100baf4cdca1ed7b9952e50799\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: What other recent changes have been announced to support new parents?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282991fc2eaec475689937d79069ff3c7\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN\u003C/span\u003E: As part of Budget 2023, the Government announced from mid-2024 new parents will also receive a 3 percent Government contribution to their KiwiSaver while on paid parental leave provided they continue their own KiwiSaver contributions. This initiative in Budget 2023 recognises that child carers can see their nest egg worse off while on parental leave and is yet another example of this Government\u2019s commitment to supporting parents and families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a5d216087d5d4500ad5c230abf8de62c\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Justice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00224c95d310900646ecb921ff70e6d828b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c95d310900646ecb921ff70e6d828b6\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: Does she stand by all her statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00223435c7b491794e2ca6202157b5b32176\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223435c7b491794e2ca6202157b5b32176\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Attorney-General):\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Justice: Yes, in their context.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b11ee1804e3c4bd48bb4bf5b1700f8fd\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Does she stand by her tweet on Sunday in response to National\u2019s gang policy \u201Clocking people up and throwing away the key is exactly what gangs want. They want NZers to pay for their university of crime.\u201D, and, if so, is she arguing that the gangs want longer prison sentences?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202c09c8a4c23492188f9ffb01dda9d70\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: In response to the second part of that question, no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022076b665d17204bcca06f54f120ae56e9\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Does she believe gangs want longer prison sentences so that they can spend more time at what she calls their \u201Cuniversity of crime\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291b83147a75b487db76723120e271178\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister was making the overall point that National\u2019s approach to law and order is ill-thought-out and lacks evidence to support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226875427c508f4ad29c2de9323a120505\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Does she understand why Kiwis who hear her saying that prison is just a university of crime, and see the Government\u2019s target of reducing the prison population regardless of the level of crime, are concluding that the Government no longer believes that serious crime should lead to serious consequences?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022948f46a4250e441aae62aece5f3e822a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Of course the Government doesn\u2019t believe that. And, indeed, the Minister of Justice has also pointed out that gang membership is already an aggravating factor in sentencing under section 9(1)(hb) of the Sentencing Act and has been applied in the likes of the King v Reihana and the King v Ormsby-Turner to increase the sentences meted out by the judiciary to gang members this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b6bd894f9fa4d4cbb62adbaaef17bae\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: So how does she reconcile her statement that making gang membership an automatic aggravating factor at sentencing infringed criminal human rights with Chris Hipkins\u2019 earlier statement, \u201CI have no issue with curbing the human rights of people who are engaged in criminal activity, because I think if they want to engage in criminal activity there\u2019s a consequence of that.\u201D, and is it the case that human rights are only an issue when National proposes something?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225996885ffa914b9cac72db0fa66f5b1d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The two statements the member referred to are not inconsistent. I further would also agree with the Minister of Police\u2019s comments at the time, in response to the National Party announcement, that National\u2019s got the policy microwave set on \u201Creheat\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b039e289af6544c68c93a2d6717da090\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Commerce and Consumer Affairs\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u00220359fe03c3364bd3800f13896d61586c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220359fe03c3364bd3800f13896d61586c\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs: What recent announcement has he made on market studies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002268193d9c3b41492fba6d3021c3fc55e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268193d9c3b41492fba6d3021c3fc55e6\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Today, at 12.30, I announced that the next market study by the Commerce Commission will be into retail banking. Banks play an important role in our economy and in every Kiwi household; New Zealanders deserve to know that they can trust their banks with their finances. Banks have consistently posted high profits over a number of years, and Kiwi consumers rightly have questions about that during tough times. There is a strong public interest in ensuring that New Zealand has a competitive banking sector, and so I have asked the Commerce Commission to undertake a market study into retail banking today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217d828a27f1b49a9a9cd4cace74355a4\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: What will the study cover?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7ab729c55f7400b93c2db5fd2943f9f\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: The Commerce Commission will have just over a year to look into any matters affecting competition for personal banking services. The study will be able to look at the full range of banking services people take up for personal or household use, but it can also narrow its spotlight and dig into certain products or areas if it needs to. It will get an understanding of competition by looking at the structure of the industry, any barriers to banks growing, or to new banks entering the sector, or any other factors affecting competition, and it will look at bank profitability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d1ac5d408a84b5f9a7ae4c33c19160a\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: What is the purpose of market studies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be661d9624f549de9b4cab71d2330b49\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Market studies are a useful tool to take an in-depth look at markets where competition might not be working well. These studies take around a year to complete and look at the long-term structural issues and barriers to competition that might be driving up prices, suppressing innovation, or keeping out a bigger range of products, services, or suppliers. The Government has focused on things that matter to Kiwis in their living costs such as fuel, groceries, and building supplies\u2014today, we add personal banking to that list. Market studies aren\u2019t a short-term fix, but they do the heavy lifting to determine how to start to address markets that aren\u2019t working well enough, and we are proud to do that work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276aea5c859eb46ff804f5ff8f63fc791\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: When will the results of the study be known?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259585d6120b44e30984129c1c8946669\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: This study will take 14 months and will report back in August 2024 with analysis and recommendations. We will have a clearer idea of the methods the Commerce Commission intends to use and preliminary issues in August this year. But we\u2019re not waiting that long to make progress: this week, we\u2019re also taking our next step in respect of open banking. A draft bill will be released for public consultation, and that will help make comparing and switching bank products easier for Kiwibank customers, because Kiwis should know that they\u2019re well served by their banks and we\u2019re doing everything we can to make sure that is the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278e027a5f4d04c2180bf6456103edf42\u0022\u003ENicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Why should New Zealanders have any confidence that this market study will be any more effective than the previous market studies into fuel, groceries, and building and construction materials, or is it his position that those studies have delivered transformational change for New Zealand consumers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022447df003a6ec4f5185cc8dc2ffc9b705\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that member may be prepared to sit on her hands and do nothing; this Government will not. Later on today, that member might want to sit in the House whilst we progress the grocery reform bills that have already seen change. We see third parties entering into the market: we see The Warehouse, we see Costco and others. So that member might want to open the paper tomorrow morning and see all of the commentators congratulating this Government on the work it\u2019s doing in improving competition across the economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002271ef08e57fff4bccaad799b106ddfffc\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u002283379dcdbac548239dcfef7596a9eb0a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283379dcdbac548239dcfef7596a9eb0a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, I have inadvertently broken the rules. I have asked the Hon Marama Davidson to return on the basis that she has question No. 12. The Standing Orders do not actually allow me to do that. The member has already returned to the House, so I am going to be guided by the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022156bc857bb5e4067876dada17058631f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022156bc857bb5e4067876dada17058631f\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. There has to be some penalty for getting kicked out\u2014I say this with some experience. Now, if she was kicked out and she can return conveniently so she can do her next question, it seems like your penalty has been almost castrated, and that wouldn\u2019t be a very good outcome. So I don\u2019t think she should be allowed to ask the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u0022d61cbb0695d54c26bcf3a00caf6ffb1a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d61cbb0695d54c26bcf3a00caf6ffb1a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That concludes oral questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227cae4f5c266b44febc33928d816ad882\u0022\u003ENg\u0101ti Hei Claims Settlement Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222a339cd3c18c476fbc1015d6f39dbfad\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022 data-id=\u0022116dd8db37f7421a91b807cb170094ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022116dd8db37f7421a91b807cb170094ac\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE (Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Ng\u0101ti Hei Claims Settlement Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275c0b36489fd4d64bc85898c2421f080\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022559bdd8b76aa48e0b2fb51a2449e888a\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Ng\u0101ti Hei Claims Settlement Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee to consider the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a5d031129a746689a8b85a516138cb6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Can I ask members leaving to do so quickly and quietly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256452c6bc7b64a4f96caff1c03ee0d7e\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW LITTLE\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0101kiri mai ana te ata ki runga o ng\u0101kau m\u0101rohirohi, k\u014Drihi ana te manu kaupapa, ka ao, ka ao, ka awatea. Tihei mauri ora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EE mihi ana ki a koutou kua tau mai nei i runga i te karanga o te kaupapa o te r\u0101, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. E mihi ana ki te hunga mate, haere, haere, haere atu r\u0101. Ki a t\u0101tou te hunga ora, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou. T\u0113nei au, t\u0113nei m\u0101tou te K\u0101wanatanga e mihi ana ki te kaupapa o te w\u0101. Ng\u0101ti Hei, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003E[Dawn breaks upon a resolute heart. The bird chorus of this issue now sings. A new dawn leads to the full light of day. Vitality and health to all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThanks and greetings to you all who have responded to the call of this issue to be here today. I acknowledge those who have passed; may you rest in peace. And to us who remain, welcome one and all. I, indeed we the Government, acknowledge the present issue. Ng\u0101ti Hei, greetings and thanks to you\u2014indeed, to us all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s my honour and privilege to be here today to speak in the first reading of the Ng\u0101ti Hei Claims Settlement Bill. I extend a warm welcome to the negotiators of Ng\u0101ti Hei, who have travelled from the beautiful Coromandel for this occasion, and I say thank you to them. It has been my privilege and pleasure to host you here today. Can I acknowledge Peter Matai Johnston and M\u0101tua Joe Davis, who I had the good fortune to host\u2014or they had the kai; I had to race off to prepare for the House. But to have some k\u014Drero as we welcome them and to hear M\u0101tua Joe\u2019s whakapapa, but also the connections to the other Hauraki whanaunga who are also very important to this bill and the associated bills that will go with this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EIt was interesting to hear from M\u0101tua Joe that the first k\u014Drero over Ng\u0101ti Hei\u2019s claims were with T\u0101 Doug Graham, back those many years ago when that formidable then justice Minister led the way in opening what we might describe now as the modern Treaty of Waitangi negotiations processes. It\u2019s great, however, that after all that time and after many Treaty bills coming to this House, that now Ng\u0101ti Hei has their bill squarely before the House, after some delay too\u2014and I\u2019ll come back to some of the reasons for that a little later.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ECan I also acknowledge and pay tribute to the generations of Ng\u0101ti Hei who have sought justice for their people, and the many members of Ng\u0101ti Hei who have passed away before they have been able to bear witness to today\u2019s milestone. In particular, in that regard, I acknowledge Ng\u0101ti Hei kaum\u0101tua Peter Tiki Johnston, who played a leading role in the settlement but, sadly, passed away in 2014. His son, Peter Matai Johnston, has assumed his father\u2019s mantle and is in the gallery today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EOn the Crown side, can I acknowledge chief Crown negotiators Michael Dreaver and the Hon Rick Barker for their hands-on leadership throughout these negotiations\u2014I might say, everybody amply supported by the team from Te Arawhiti in the gallery there. Can I acknowledge my predecessor, the Hon Chris Finlayson, as well, for his significant contribution to this Treaty settlement, and of course I thank my ministerial colleagues, Crown agencies, and the councils who have been involved in this for their support to achieve this settlement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EToday\u2019s reading marks a major milestone in the Ng\u0101ti Hei negotiations. It was back in August\u00A02017 that Ng\u0101ti Hei and the Crown signed a deed of settlement here at Parliament. I think we can all agree that six years is a long time to wait to advance the settlement to its next significant step.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe delay between signing the deed and the first reading today is due to the structure of the Hauraki negotiations. Initially, the Ng\u0101ti Hei Claims Settlement Bill was drafted as part of an omnibus bill with 13 other Hauraki settlements. However, each negotiation moves at its own pace, and so, given the varying pace and a number of other issues that had arisen, I decided in 2021 that we would move away from the omnibus approach and progress the Hauraki bills that are ready and where litigation and overlapping interest claims have been dealt with or progressed sufficiently. That, of course, included Ng\u0101ti Hei and I thank Ng\u0101ti Hei for their incredible patience during this time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003ENg\u0101ti Hei hold a unique place in New Zealand history. In November 1769, Ng\u0101ti Hei hosted the first recorded p\u014Dwhiri between M\u0101ori and P\u0101keh\u0101 when Ng\u0101ti Hei paramount chief Toawaka invited Captain Cook, no less, to the fortified p\u0101 Wharet\u0101ewa in Whitianga. Cook and his crew spent 12 days at Whanga-nui-a-Hei measuring the transit of Mercury across the sun, trading, and resupplying the ship in what was described then as a mostly amicable cultural exchange with Ng\u0101ti Hei.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EDespite these positive beginnings, even before Te Tiriti o Waitangi was signed, the negative effects of P\u0101keh\u0101 settlement were felt by Ng\u0101ti Hei. By the 1830s, Ng\u0101ti Hei had lost much of their coastal whenua due to transactions with traders. The Crown\u2019s Land Claims Commission later investigated those transactions and awarded almost 7,000 acres of land, in which Ng\u0101ti Hei had interests, to European claimants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EAfter the Treaty was signed, Crown land acquisition, and the operation and effect of the native land laws left Ng\u0101ti Hei virtually landless. The loss of land and resources reduced Ng\u0101ti Hei\u2019s ability to participate in the new economic opportunities and challenges emerging within their rohe in the 20th century.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe Crown\u2019s repression of te reo M\u0101ori, along with the fragmentation of Ng\u0101ti Hei tribal structures and the migration from ancestral lands, severely affected Ng\u0101ti Hei\u2019s ability to pass m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori on to their tamariki and mokopuna. The settlement is grounded in the Crown\u2019s acknowledgment of this history and the Crown\u2019s apology for its breaches of the Treaty of Waitangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EThe redress contained in this bill will support Ng\u0101ti Hei in realising their aspirations for their iwi and the many generations to come. The bill will give effect to the redress provided and settlement of historical Treaty of Waitangi claims, including financial and commercial redress of $8.5 million; the vesting of 15 sites of cultural significance; and overlay classification and statement of association, which acknowledges the traditional, cultural, spiritual, and historical association of Ng\u0101ti Hei with certain sites of significance, including Moehau and Te Aroha maunga. This settlement legislation will also enact a M\u0101ori Land Court order that will vest Ohinau Island in the Ng\u0101ti Hei governance entity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EFinally, relationship agreements between Ng\u0101ti Hei and Crown agencies will provide the foundation for a better future relationship between Ng\u0101ti Hei and the Crown. As I indicated earlier, this bill is one of a number of bills coming under the Pare Hauraki collective of iwi in Hauraki. There are others yet to make their progress\u2014some have already been introduced\u2014but eventually we will bring together a Hauraki collective piece of legislation as well. Bearing in mind now, with these bills and the Hauraki bills, what has been very important is to ensure that the relationships between each of those Hauraki iwi are sorted, but also the relationship between Hauraki iwi and other large national groups\u2014and I\u2019m thinking particularly of Tauranga Moana\u2014that those are settled and healthy relationships as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022106966ef-8cc3-434a-9dbe-dd76b708c2a1\u0022\u003EI sincerely hope that this settlement is the beginning of a stronger relationship between Ng\u0101ti Hei and the Crown based on mutual trust, cooperation, and respect for Te Tiriti and its principles. I propose the bill should proceed without delay to the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee. On that basis, I commend the bill to the House. N\u014D reira, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022825df36194244d72acee9d36ce1dc5ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022825df36194244d72acee9d36ce1dc5ff\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u0022d044f2c20d3e45119877d0d067cb3bc6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d044f2c20d3e45119877d0d067cb3bc6\u0022\u003ETAMA POTAKA (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E Ko wai an\u014D, ko wai an\u014D? Ko te ninihi nui o te moana, ko Te Parata nui o te moana, ko te Paikea nui o te moana. Ko wai an\u014D ng\u0101 uri o te waka Te Arawa? Repanga, a Ng\u0101toro ki tai, Hauraki ki uta, ki te whai ao, ki te ao m\u0101rama. Haumi e, hui e, t\u0101iki e.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EKei a koutou, te rangatira Joe, Hita Maitai m\u0101, ng\u0101 rangatira o Ng\u0101ti Hei ki Wharekaho, koutou ng\u0101 m\u0101reikura me ng\u0101 whatukura kua rauemi mai, kua rarau mai ki t\u0113nei Whare Miere, te ana o ng\u0101 raiona me ng\u0101 taika me ng\u0101 puma o t\u0113nei whenua, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003ET\u0113n\u0101 koutou e kawe nei i ng\u0101 moemoe\u0101 a \u014D koutou m\u0101tua t\u016Bpuna, me ng\u0101 whakatinanatanga o \u0113r\u0101 moemoe\u0101 ki roto i \u0101 koutou taiohi, rangatahi, rangatakap\u016B.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EKei taku minita, Anaru Paku, t\u0113n\u0101 koe i \u014D mahi rangatira nei, e mihi ana ki a koe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EKatoa r\u0101tou kua nunumi atu, haere atu r\u0101. Hoki mai nei ki a t\u0101tau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E[Who are they? Who are they? The vastness of the ocean, the great denizen of the sea, the great whale of the ocean. Who are the descendants of Te Arawa? Repanga, Ng\u0101toro at sea, and Hauraki inland, in the emerging world, the world of light. It coalesces. It assembles. It is bound.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003ETo you, the leader, Joe, Peter Matai, and others, the leaders of Ng\u0101ti Hei ki Wharekaho; you also, the matriarchs and patriarchs have assembled here, to have come here to this Beehive, to the lair of the lions and the tigers and the pumas of this land. Greetings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EGreetings to you who carry the aspirations of your forebears, and the realisation of those dreams in your youth, your young people, your adolescents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003ETo my Minister, Andrew Little, thank you for your noble work. I acknowledge you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThose who have passed on, rest in peace. I return now to us.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003ENg\u0101ti Hei ki Wharekaho is what we often refer to as Ng\u0101ti Hei, a well-known tribe of Hauraki, being a member of the Pare Hauraki collective, and will receive redress through the Pare Hauraki collective redress arrangements as well as this specific Ng\u0101ti Hei arrangement. The iwi marae at Whitianga, Te R\u0101 Matiti, stands as a lighthouse for tribal identity. E mihi ana ki a koutou, te ahi k\u0101. [The marae of the iwi, Whitianga, Te R\u0101 M\u0101titi, stands as a lighthouse for tribal identity. I acknowledge you, the home people that keep the home fires burning.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003ETreaty settlements like this one that were launched and set about by the great elders of the National Party, Jim Bolger, Doug Graham, Kereama R\u0101tima, and Bill Birch\u2014W\u012Bremu Birch\u2014have been carried on by successive Governments and genuinely assisted in restoring wairua through acknowledgments and apologies, through cultural redress, and usually some modest commercial redress that sometimes includes land and buildings, and in some places just p\u016Btea, just the cash. And like your relatives on the other side of T\u012Bkapa Moana, Ng\u0101i Tai ki T\u0101maki, the Ng\u0101ti Hei nation are resilient, emergent, and aspirational. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EIn fact, I wanted to take a moment just to comment on the comments of my former boss, Hemi Paraone, your whanaunga over there, Ng\u0101i Tai ki T\u0101maki, who always would refer to Matua Joe as an absolute icon of Hauraki identity. And in that little Switzerland that Ng\u0101i Tai ki T\u0101maki sometimes is\u2014T\u0101maki-makau-rau, Tainui, Hauraki, and everything else\u2014he always would pay that homage and that respect to the mahi that Matua Joe and others of Ng\u0101ti Hei have done to retain their identity, to drive their identity, and ultimately to restore and regenerate their identity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EAhakoa iti rearea, teitei kahikatea [Despite the diminutive size of the rearea bird, it can reach the top of the kahikatea tree.] Whilst the rearea is small, it can overcome the tallest kahikatea in the great forest of T\u0101ne Mahuta. And your negotiators, along with other iwi leaders, not only those that are on the paepae but also those in the k\u0101uta have brought this here to the Whare M\u012Bere. So I acknowledge all those rangatira and ringawera [leaders and kitchen staff] of the iwi. M\u0101 mua ka kitea a muri; m\u0101 muri ka ora a mua. [Through the formalities, the dining staff are seen; because of the dining staff, the formalities go well.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003ENg\u0101ti Hei\u2014descendants of tangata whenua Te Hekenga-a-rangi and Hap\u016B-oneone, as well as the great navigators and sentinels of various waka like Arawa, and Kupe\u2019s Matahourua. The deed of settlement outlines and sets out some k\u014Drero around the eponymous ancestor Hei, son of Atuamatua, brother of Houmaitawhiti and father of Waitaha, and bound to the land and seas of Toi te Huatahi ki te Waitemat\u0101 huri atu a T\u012Bkapa Moana ki roto, the Hauraki Gulf to Waitemat\u0101 and the food basket of T\u012Bkapa Moana. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThe dominions that the Ng\u0101ti Hei people have are indeed mercurial\u2014mercurial, Mr Simpson\u2014and spread north and south, and are captured in various names: Te \u014C \u0101 Hei, or Hahei, Te Whanganui a Hei, Mercury Bay, and Ng\u0101 Tokotoru a Hei out there by Aotea. E mihi ana ki a koutou. The area of interest of your iwi, located on the eastern seaboard of the Coromandel Peninsula, is in the works and the writings of my wife\u2019s great-grandfather Pei Te Hurinui Jones, who has links to you all. Moehau. He always refers to Coromandel Peninsula as Moehau, but Te Tara o te Ika a M\u0101ui through Onemana and Te Whangapoua and centred around Tairua and Mautohe known to most of us as Cathedral Cove\u2014and those citadels of Ng\u0101ti Hei include Repanga or Cuvier Island, home of various tasty fish and shark, Moehau, Ahuahu, Motutere, Tahanga, and ng\u0101 Ruam\u0101hua islands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThe Ng\u0101ti Hei massif also refers us back to our Tahitian ancestors, with places like Hiti\u0101 o te R\u0101, or Whitianga, as we refer to it here in New Zealand, and Taputapuatea\u2014what a beautiful place in Tahiti and also in Coromandel. I\u2019m sure many of the members here today\u2014actually, some of our whanaunga members, across the benches\u2014have also been to that place, both here in Aotearoa and also in Tahiti. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThe bill is one that the National Party supports to progress to the first reading. Like many wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi, Ng\u0101ti Hei were entrepreneurial peoples in the early 1800s, being involved, like other iwi, in the timber trade, with foresters, albeit with some unconscionable arrangements along the way\u2014reminds me of a few iwi through the central North Island, e taku tuakana, Shanan. [my senior, Shanan.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EOne of the more difficult experiences Ng\u0101ti Hei went through was the purchase of Ahuahu\u2014Mercury Island; what an outstanding place\u2014by the Crown from other iwi. There is no evidence that Ng\u0101ti Hei were either consulted or paid for their interest in this breathtaking island, and then, of course, the Crown entered into land transactions called purchases for over 80,000 acres of Moehau paradise. The bill gives effects to some elements of the Ng\u0101ti Hei deed of settlement, and I mihi to those former Ministers for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations, Doug Graham and Christopher Finlayson, who represented the Crown in those early high-level negotiations with Ng\u0101ti Hei. But it also reflects the acknowledgment and apology made in that deed and gives effect to some of the redress outlined in that deed. I want to thank and acknowledge our Minister, the Hon Andrew Little, Anaru Paku, and various officials for this important step in the redress process\u2014Mike Dreaver, Rick Barker, officials from the Department of Conservation, Land Information New Zealand, and other agencies who have represented the Crown. I mihi to them and hope for further innovation in future settlements as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThis package, set out in the bill, is something that the National Party absolutely applauds and supports for further consideration. The acknowledgments record that the Crown failed to take adequate steps to protect the interests of Ng\u0101ti Hei, but it sets out the industrial activities\u2014those extractive processes over the Moehau Peninsula, te Tara o te Ika; things like gold-mining, gum digging, flax milling, timber harvesting\u2014all those extractive processes that have delivered very little upside for Ng\u0101ti Hei over time and have been very distressing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThose beautiful surrounds of Moehau, Whitianga, and elsewhere is something that\u2014although there\u2019s a few roads that we need to fix up along the way, collectively, there, Mr Simpson\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022032805a428cc4020bd9a1f3fbd1fcabc\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Hear, hear!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3d7858e2db14ef9b4cb528e6956ad4f\u0022\u003ETAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: Hear, hear! It\u2019s something that we look forward to restoring. By the end of the 20th century, left virtually landless like many other iwi throughout the motu, Ng\u0101ti Hei had been marginalised, with the loss of resources, poor educational achievement, socio-economic deprivation and all those other pretty difficult statistics that you\u2019re dealing with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThe apology for the Treaty breaches and prejudice to Ng\u0101ti Hei, particularly given the impacts of Crown actions and omissions on the wellbeing of Ng\u0101ti Hei, is something that we will continue to canvass as we go through the legislative readings. The deed of settlement, which was initialled on 31\u00A0May 2017 and then ratified later in August that year, illustrates the progress that your wh\u0101nau, your hap\u016B, and your iwi have made in order to seal the deal but also to get to go. It\u2019s like going around in Monopoly, \u201CGo back to \u2018Go\u2019 and collect $200\u201D, but in this case a little bit more commercial redress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003ENow, you have many uri and descendants, and I can\u2019t believe that Census 2018 only records 600, because I know there are more out there somewhere. Ahakoa he iti, he iti m\u0101pihi pounamu. [Even though it appears small, it is of great value.] The census noted that only 44 percent of the iwi own their own home, and 27 percent of iwi members earn more than $50,000 per annum. Hopefully\u2014hopefully\u2014this redress set out in the bill and the pending legislation will give you a little bit of ballast and a little bit of kaha to carry out and improve those demographics and improve those statistics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThe kaupapa of Ng\u0101ti Hei is set out on your website: \u201CFrom our t\u016Bpuna we have inherited our moana, whenua, and cultural taonga. We will protect and enhance them to build a bright future for Ng\u0101ti Hei.\u201D E mihi ana\u2014e mihi ana ki a koutou. Those various aspects of the bill include cultural redress\u2014culturally significant sites being returned, places like Purangi, Tapu Point, and Rangihau; revitalisation funds for cultural purposes\u2014financial redress of $8.5 million with commercial redress enabling the right to purchase part of Whenuakite\u2014actually, I remember some kiwi coming over from Whenuakite Station to Motutapu. Had to give them a bit of aroha, a bit of love, all the way from Whenuakite right into the middle of T\u012Bkapa Moana. And of course, there is the separation of negotiations in the future in relation to T\u012Bkapa Moana and Te\u00A0Tai\u00A0Tam\u0101hine\u00A0/\u00A0Te Tai Tamawahine. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EIt is through these types of historic, \u201Cherstoric\u201D, and heroic Treaty settlement arrangements that we can help recognise the decades of loss and suffering, regenerate iwi, particularly rural economies like that in Ng\u0101ti Hei, and tautoko Ng\u0101ti Hei to realise your holistic aspirations with a carefully nurtured relationship reset with the Crown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EKi a koutou o Ng\u0101ti Hei, wh\u0101ia te iti kahurangi. E kore rawa koutou e tuohu ki t\u0113nei maunga teitei, \u0101kuanei ka tau atu ki te tihi o t\u0113nei maunga. Haere tonu, kawea te m\u0101nuka takoto ki t\u014Dna ake takotoranga, ki t\u014Dna \u0101ketanga. E mihi ana ki a koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, e mihi ana ki a koutou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E[To those of you of Ng\u0101ti Hei, pursue worthy endeavours. You will never bow to this lofty mountain; soon you will reach the summit of this peak. Go on, take up the challenge lying before you to its destination, to its enduring conclusion. I acknowledge you. Thanks and greetings to you; I acknowledge you.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u0022033798c0301145c4b97ff96bf3dc4ea4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022033798c0301145c4b97ff96bf3dc4ea4\u0022\u003EHon NANAIA MAHUTA (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Piki ake, kake ake taku manu ki runga o Taupiri. T\u014D piki, t\u014D haere ki te tihi o Moehau. M\u0101whiti te titiro ki te pae o Hauraki, te whenua taurikura o ng\u0101 m\u0101tua t\u016Bpuna. Tat\u016B atu te titiro ki T\u012Bkapa Moana, te k\u0101pata kai o te iwi e. T\u0113nei ka mihi atu r\u0101 ki a koutou, ka haere taku manu kei waenganui i a koutou, Ng\u0101ti Hei, tairoa te noho ki reira.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira kei ng\u0101 m\u0101tua t\u016Bpuna, i t\u0113nei w\u0101, e kawea nei e koutou, e Matua Joe, ki roto ki t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 whare, e mihi ana ki a r\u0101tou ng\u0101 tini mate o te tau, o te marama, o nanahi, o te rangi nei, \u0101, haere, haere, haere atu r\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003ETat\u016B atu r\u0101 ki a koutou, t\u0101tou e huihui mai nei i t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 whare m\u014D t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 kaupapa e kawea nei e koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E[My bird ascends; it climbs Mount Taupiri\u2014your ascent, your travels to the summit of Moehau. My gaze crosses to the ranges of Hauraki, the luscious land of our forebears. My gaze meets the Hauraki Gulf, the pantry of the people. I greet you all. My bird of welcome goes among you, Ng\u0101ti Hei, spending time there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003ESo to our forebears, at this time, that are brought here by you, by Mr Joe, into this of our houses, I acknowledge our many dearly departed of the year, the month, yesterday, and this very day. Rest in peace.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EI come now to you, indeed us, gathered here in this of our houses for this of our initiatives that you have brought here. Thank you all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EIt gives me great pleasure to be able to offer some brief remarks to the Ng\u0101ti Hei Claims Settlement Bill. We are at the first reading, and much of the substance of this bill will be heard by the select committee in fullness, but I wanted to make a few comments and echo the sentiments of our Treaty settlement Minister, the Hon Andrew Little, to pay homage to those who have gone before and carried the mantle, and have left it with those who are here with us now. In particular, Joe Davis and Peter Johnston, you represent, I think, many years of toil and aspiration and hope that we would get to this point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EIn saying that, it\u2019s not an easy thing to go down the pathway of Treaty settlements. There is always the hope and aspiration that justice can be achieved, but the Treaty settlement process is a difficult and fragile one. For those who have the fortitude to pursue a Treaty settlement, they know exactly\u2014exactly\u2014some of the trade-offs and sacrifices that have been made within the Treaty settlement context, and I want to acknowledge that in particular with Ng\u0101ti Hei. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EFor the time that I\u2019ve been a member of Parliament, Matua Joe, there are some things that you\u2019ve brought to the Hauraki sentiment, I guess, or character that really impress upon me what are the things that are held dear, and that is the environment\u2014the taiao. We only need look back over the way in which Ng\u0101ti Hei have advocated in favour of the environment, in favour of r\u0101hui\u2014to restore fisheries\u2014and in favour of the right protocols for when we get tohor\u0101 that wash up on your shores, or ihe, or whatever, and Ng\u0101ti Hei has always been at the forefront of protecting the aspirations of kaitiakitanga in a very real and practical way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThe other element of Ng\u0101ti Hei that I\u2019ve observed during my time as a member of Parliament has been the way in which Ng\u0101ti Hei has worked constructively within their community. When I\u2019ve been in Opposition, that has been the case, and when we\u2019ve been in Government, that is the case, and I am assured that when that time comes and we may be on different sides of this House, Ng\u0101ti Hei\u2019s approach to their community will be absolutely consistent. That is why it gives me great pleasure to speak to this particular settlement, because of the consistency of the way in which Ng\u0101ti Hei\u2019s leadership can be relied upon: in favour of the environment, in favour of their community\u2014in favour of every member of their community\u2014and in favour of trying to make their small part of Hauraki a fantastic place to not only live but thrive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThere are elements in this settlement that I think will be looked upon and perhaps even considered: \u201CWell, where are the opportunities?\u201D I know that M\u0101ori Affairs Committee members will be looking forward to your presentation as negotiators to identify where those associated opportunities are, because Ng\u0101ti Hei\u2019s settlement sits within the context of some collective redress but also some critical relationships that exist across Hauraki which other members in this House are very well aware of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EThe component parts of this settlement, especially in relation to overlay classifications and statutory acknowledgments, I think give you a sense. You only need to look at the map of the area of association that Ng\u0101ti Hei relates to, but it does give you a sense of the whakapapa connections, the relational connections with other iwi across Hauraki that Ng\u0101ti Hei have that have been long standing\u2014long standing\u2014and some of those relationships even extend beyond its own area. For the most part, I\u2019m hopeful that we can progress in a considered way, with respect, acknowledging much of the aspiration that is intended to arise from this settlement, and that the select committee process enables some of the perhaps challenging features or views held about this settlement to be explored and aired, and then we progress on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003EHe iti, he pounamu t\u0113nei k\u014Drero kia t\u0101piri atu ki te hiahia o Ng\u0101ti Hei kia whakanikoniko i te t\u0101huhu o t\u0101 r\u0101tou nei whare kia noho taua whare hei \u0101huru m\u014Dwai m\u014D ng\u0101 uri whakatupu. N\u014D reira koutou, kei Ng\u0101ti Hei, t\u0101tou katoa e huihui mai nei, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou.\u00A0\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E[This statement, though small, is valued, to add to the desire of Ng\u0101ti Hei to embellish the apex ridge of their house, in order for that house to be a safe haven for the coming generations. So to you, Ng\u0101ti Hei, to all of us assembled here, greetings to us all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00221bda80c2b6494a1c8a52be714c7cb302\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221bda80c2b6494a1c8a52be714c7cb302\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker, and I wish to join with others from around the debating chamber this afternoon in offering a warm parliamentary welcome to our visitors and our guests from Ng\u0101ti Hei, who have travelled a distance that I travel regularly. But it\u2019s a long way and we appreciate you coming again to this place, again to advance a settlement that has been so long in the making\u2014so long in the making\u2014and your patience and your diligence and your forthright, resolute stickability to this process is something that I think we can all be very proud of, but I acknowledge that it has taken too long, far too long. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EA little bit of personal history: my wh\u0101nau arrived at K\u016Baotunu in the rohe of Ng\u0101ti Hei in 1884, my great grandparents, and proceeded to embark upon a lifestyle and raise a family\u2014large families in those days\u2014and quickly started to interact with Ng\u0101ti Hei, I\u2019d like to think over the years, over the generations, positively and constructively, but interact they did. And at Wharekaho, a beach sometimes referred to as \u201CSimpson\u2019s beach\u201D, the relationship has been strong and there are still members of my extended family who farm in that area today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EIt was only a few weeks ago that I had the opportunity and the privilege to visit the beautiful marae villa site at Wharekaho to discuss matters of issue with Ng\u0101ti Hei and others about fishing, about the marine environment and the space and the accessibility, or over-accessibility, of people who want to come and spend time in the beautiful Coromandel, in the rohe of Ng\u0101ti Hei, who want to come and spend time there, as they have done for millennia because of the beautiful environment, because of the lovely safe harbours, the beautiful marine environment, and the welcoming of the people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EAnd so back in\u2014I think it was\u2014August 2017, when the deed of settlement was finally signed here at the Parliament, I had an opportunity to participate in that ceremony with my then colleague, the negotiating Minister Chris Finlayson. That was a moment of great personal pride, but it was pride really for the progress that Ng\u0101ti Hei and the people of Ng\u0101ti Hei have brought to this longstanding issue over such a challenging period of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI want to endorse what others have said about how this negotiation process has been concluded or how it has progressed. And I want to also acknowledge those that have gone before, because many of them who started along this way are no longer with us. And we as descendants of those people have the privilege and honour of attempting to conclude a matter that has taken far too long to get where it is. So to Peter Matai Johnston, welcome to Parliament; to Joe Davis and the rest of the team, welcome. It\u2019s great to have you here on this auspicious occasion, but this is just another step along the way. We\u2019re not quite there yet. We are about to send this piece of special legislation to a select committee where the details of the settlement will be examined closely and where the grievances and issues that have led to the settlement will also be acknowledged and considered again. That will be part of the process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI can well remember a time when I was a very new MP and the Hon Christopher Finlayson was the Treaty negotiations Minister and visiting again at Wharekaho. And I can\u2019t remember exactly why, but the Minister had for some reason walked on grass or across pasture that was wet and his socks had got wet. It was a winter\u2019s day and the fire was roaring in the wood burner in the whare. And the Minister decided, as was his wont, to dry his socks and he placed his socks on the wrong part of the fireplace and he left the whare with burnt socks but I think a good understanding and a good open relationship. I know that that relationship has endured and I know that he would be very pleased to be participating in this debate if he was here still in this Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI know that that relationship is firm and strong, but that relationship\u2019s been carried on by his successors and we find ourselves where we are today. And again, because this is such an important part of the wider Treaty settlement negotiations process for the Hauraki area, I\u2019m pleased that we have got past the idea of trying to settle the omnibus process involving the 13 iwi, because that was fraught and it was difficult and it was challenging. So let\u2019s get on with the groups that are ready, the iwi that are ready, and Ng\u0101ti Hei are ready to go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThat, I think, is a good thing, because back in 2011, when I was first elected to Parliament, I can remember someone saying to me, \u201CGet ready, Scott; get ready. The Treaty settlement is about to come. You\u2019ve got to get ready.\u201D And then they said, \u201CWell, it\u2019ll be six months.\u201D And then the six months came and they said, \u201COh, it\u2019ll be another six months. Just be ready. It\u2019ll be another six months and it\u2019ll be all done\u2014another six months.\u201D And here we are, nearly 12 years on and maybe six months\u2014maybe six months more\u2014we\u2019ll be at least a little bit closer with Ng\u0101ti Hei. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo I want to join with others. I\u2019m very much looking forward to this bill progressing through to select committee, where I know it\u2019s going to be scrutinised carefully, where I know the dignity and the mana and the perseverance of Ng\u0101ti Hei will be acknowledged and maintained, and then we\u2019ll bring it back for a second reading and then finally a third reading and the legislation will be passed. And I hope that I have the honour and privilege of still being in this House when that occurs, as I know that there will be other members of the Chamber wanting to do exactly the same. Kia kaha! We look forward to progressing this legislation. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u00226783eeacb6b640e6967300a617a1890a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226783eeacb6b640e6967300a617a1890a\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare, otir\u0101 t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa kei roto i t\u0113nei Whare o t\u0101tou i t\u0113nei ahiahi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EHe tino h\u014Dnore t\u0113nei m\u014Dku, te t\u016B ki te tautoko o te p\u0101nuitanga tuatahi o t\u0113nei pire m\u014D te whakataunga ker\u0113me a Ng\u0101ti Hei. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou ng\u0101 uri o Ng\u0101ti Hei kei konei, kei roto i te Whare i t\u0113nei ahiahi. Otir\u0101 t\u0113n\u0101 pea ki a koutou o Ng\u0101ti Hei e whakarongo mai ana i t\u0113nei ahiahi i runga i te reo irirangi, te pouaka whakaata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ETuatahi m\u0101ku, e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare, e tautoko ana ahau i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero a te Minita m\u014D ng\u0101 whakataunga ker\u0113me, ki te Minita hoki, a Nanaia Mahuta, te mema P\u0101remata o t\u0113r\u0101 takiw\u0101, o te Hauraki Waikato. E tautoko ana ahau i \u0101 r\u0101tou mihi ki a koutou kei roto i te Whare i t\u0113nei ahiahi, n\u0101 koutou i whakapau \u014D koutou kaha ki te kawe i ng\u0101 take Tiriti m\u014D t\u014D koutou iwi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EE tautoko ana hoki ahau i ng\u0101 mihi ki ng\u0101 kaimahi a te Karauna i mahi ng\u0101tahi ki a koutou o te iwi kia whakatau i \u0113nei ker\u0113me, \u0113nei take. N\u014D reira e mihi ana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E[Thank you to the Speaker\u2014indeed, greetings to all of us in this House of ours this afternoon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EThis is a real honour for me, to stand and support the first reading of this bill for the settlement claim of Ng\u0101ti Hei. Greetings to the descendants of Ng\u0101ti Hei that are here in the House this afternoon. Indeed to those of Ng\u0101ti Hei who may be listening this afternoon on the radio or television.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EFirstly for me, I support the statements of the Minister for settlement claims, and also to the Minister, Nanaia Mahuta, member of Parliament of that electorate, of Hauraki Waikato. I support their acknowledgments of those of you who are in the House this afternoon, those of you who expended your energy to bring these Treaty matters for your people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI also support the acknowledgments made to the staff of the Crown who worked together with you of the iwi to settle these claims and these matters. So I thank you.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s my absolute honour and privilege to speak in the House this afternoon on the first reading of the Ng\u0101ti Hei Claims Settlement Bill. In my mihi, I just wanted to acknowledge all of those descendants of Ng\u0101ti Hei who are here today but also those that may be tuning in, may be listening online as well, to this really important part of the process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EThis is a milestone getting to the first reading of the settlement legislation. I wanted to acknowledge Minister Little and Minister Mahuta, who both spoke before me, and all of the acknowledgments that they made to those who were both on the iwi side and on the Crown side who have been involved in this mahi; just to repeat to the negotiators from Ng\u0101ti Hei, to Peter and to Joe, and also those Crown negotiators, Michael Dreaver and Rick Barker; and I want to acknowledge the former Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations as well, Minister Finlayson. As the member Scott Simpson was just reciting the story, I could just imagine Minister Finlayson trying to dry his socks on the fire, and Ginny and I were laughing over here on this side, having had some experience with Minister Finlayson myself before coming into Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI was reflecting on Minister Little\u2019s speech about the length of time that this has taken and some of the reasons for that, but also the ability to make progress when departing from that omnibus approach and being able to get it to where it is today. I just want to acknowledge that it was first signed in 2017 and here we are in 2023, finally having its first reading in the House. \u201CManawaroa\u201D is the word that we use in Te Tai Tokerau for perseverance and patience, and that has very much been the case here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge those that will be on the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee who are going to be receiving this bill and hearing submissions about it and the mahi that they will do. I have had the privilege of sitting on that committee in the past, and I know that they put a lot of effort into hearing the submissions, often visiting the rohe these settlements relate to. So I know that they will do a very good job on behalf of us all here in Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI believe that other members have already outlined the main parts of the redress that are in the settlement. There is the apology. There is the financial redress and commercial redress as well as cultural redress, which has been traversed by other members, so I won\u2019t repeat that for you this afternoon. And, given that it\u2019s been since 2017, I won\u2019t prolong it any further either and add to that delay. So with that, Mr Speaker, e tautoko ana ahau i t\u0113nei pire pau te kaha. [I support this bill with all my strength.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u002283969a43f78d489e96a90fc4c19f196e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283969a43f78d489e96a90fc4c19f196e\u0022\u003EKAREN CHHOUR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to stand on behalf of ACT and support the Ng\u0101ti Hei Claims Settlement Bill for the first reading. It\u2019s a real honour to be standing here and speaking to this. I don\u2019t know much about Treaty settlements in detail and the processes that get us to this place, but what I do know is that it\u2019s taken far too long. And what I do hear is that there is a lot of pain and anguish when some of these settlements, from beginning to end\u2014we\u2019ve lost people during that time frame, and I\u2019d like to acknowledge those who have passed before these settlements have come into play because I think that\u2019s really important. We\u2019ve got descendants from Ng\u0101ti Hei that may be here or may be watching today, and I\u2019d just like to acknowledge those who have passed and who will not see this come into fruition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EThat saddens me, that this process takes so long to get where we are today, and so I\u2019m grateful that we\u2019ve got here today, and I\u2019m grateful that some of the wrongs of the past are being addressed in this House. I think it\u2019s important that we do address wrongs of the past, and that we do make sure that an apology does happen for those wrongs, but also some kind of compensation for those wrongs of the past as well. So as part of this, as people have mentioned before, there will be properties of cultural significance that will be dealt with. This is a collective agreement and there\u2019s more to come. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003ESo I take my hat off to the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, because it can\u2019t be easy listening to some of the Ng\u0101ti Hei and other iwis\u2019 stories about what it\u2019s taken to get to this place. So thank you to those who sit on the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee for taking this on and making sure that this is done appropriately and properly for all those involved. ACT supports this through to the select committee process, and we hope to see it back before the House and passed as quickly as we possibly can. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00220df374d998454458a208afb5495c117e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220df374d998454458a208afb5495c117e\u0022\u003ETEANAU TUIONO (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka. E t\u016B ake t\u0113nei hei mema m\u014D ng\u0101 K\u0101k\u0101riki ki te whakaatu i \u014D m\u0101tou whakaaro ki t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 pire.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EHeoi ko taku mihi tuatahi ki a koutou, Ng\u0101ti Hei, koutou i tae \u0101-tinana mai, otir\u0101 ki a koutou e whakarongo ana ki runga i ng\u0101 reo irirangi, te pouaka whakaata r\u0101nei, t\u0113nei ka mihi atu.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EKo au an\u014D t\u0113tahi o ng\u0101 mema o te Komiti Whiringa Take M\u0101ori, n\u014D reira kei te haere mai t\u0113nei pire ki a m\u0101tou ki te w\u0101nanga, ki te wetewete i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EE te P\u012Bka, i \u0113tahi w\u0101 he tino waim\u0101rie m\u0101tou ki te haere ki te marae ki te whakarongo ki te hau k\u0101inga. Heoi i mua i te taenga atu ko te mea nui me rangahau he aha ng\u0101 t\u0101tai whakapapa, he aha ng\u0101 kaupapa i reira i te mea k\u0101ore an\u014D ahau kia tae atu ki waenganui i a Ng\u0101ti Hei, ki roto i \u014D r\u0101tou nei marae n\u014D reira i \u0101ta w\u0101nangahia \u0113tahi o ng\u0101 whakaaro.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira e mihi ana t\u0113nei ki \u014D r\u0101tou nei hononga ki t\u0113r\u0101 tipuna o t\u0101tou, ki a P\u016Bkenga, n\u0101 \u0101na mahi i tau te ingoa ki runga i te Whitianga a Kupe, n\u014D reira me mihi atu au ki t\u0113r\u0101 o ng\u0101 tino t\u012Bpuna o t\u0101tou, otir\u0101 ki \u014D r\u0101tou nei hononga ki a Te Arawa waka.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EE ai ki te k\u014Drero i tau te waka ki \u0113tahi w\u0101hi kei Moehau, ka whakaingoatia \u0113tahi w\u0101hi tae atu ki te maunga o Moehau. Ko t\u014Dna ingoa wh\u0101nui ko Te\u00A0MoengahauoTamatekapua. E ai ki ng\u0101 k\u014Drero ko Hei, ko ia te matua k\u0113k\u0113 o Tamatekapua, t\u0101ku nei i p\u0101nuihia ki runga i Te Ara, the online encyclopaedia. N\u014D reira ka mihi atu ki t\u0113r\u0101 tipuna o koutou, i puta mai t\u0113r\u0101 ingoa ko Te Whanga-a-Hei.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EE te P\u012Bka, i a au e p\u0101nui ana i te taunakitanga o t\u0113nei pire, i kite i te nui o ng\u0101 raru i tukuna e te Karauna ki a Ng\u0101ti Hei. I puta mai \u0113tahi o ng\u0101 matapaki k\u014Drero, ng\u0101 horopaki o ng\u0101 kamupene poro r\u0101kau i haere atu ki t\u014D r\u0101tou nei w\u0101hi, \u0101-r\u012Bhi nei. \u0112tahi w\u0101hi i haere mai an\u014D te Karauna, i r\u016Bkahu atu ki te tangata whenua, k\u0101tahi ka riro atu te whenua.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EE te P\u012Bka, kua roa tonu te noho a te \u016Bmanga tangotango rawa i te rohe o Ng\u0101ti Hei, mai i te poro r\u0101kau, te kerikeri k\u0101pia, te mira harakeke, te keri koura me te mahi hiika an\u014D hoki. Pakupaku noa iho ng\u0101 painga w\u0101 roa i riro i a Ng\u0101ti Hei mai i \u0113nei \u016Bmanga, \u0101, e p\u0101ngia tonutia ana r\u0101tou ki te mamae m\u014D te t\u016Bkinotanga o te taiao o t\u014D r\u0101tou nei rohe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EKoinei ng\u0101 w\u0101nanga k\u014Drero ka haramai, ki \u014Dku nei whakaaro, ki te Komiti Whiringa Take M\u0101ori kia areare m\u0101tou ng\u0101 taringa kia tino rangona he aha te aha, he aha ng\u0101 h\u012Btori, ng\u0101 k\u014Drero tuku iho o Ng\u0101ti Hei, ki a m\u0101tou o te komiti.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EHei tauira i kite au ki roto i te pire, i te mea he maha ng\u0101 tauira engari ko t\u0113tahi i tino h\u0101ngai \u014Dku nei karu, i te tau 1885 ka uru ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata o Ng\u0101ti Hei n\u014D r\u0101tou a K\u016Baotunu, ki roto i t\u0113tahi whakaritenga \u0101-r\u012Bhi me t\u0113tahi kamupene poro r\u0101kau, he kaupapa i rangona e au ki roto i taku p\u0101nuitanga i te pire. Ki t\u0101 te hunga n\u014D r\u0101tou te whenua, i tuku te r\u012Bhi i te mana poro r\u0101kau anahe, heoi an\u014D hei t\u0101 r\u0101tou an\u014D hoki, i \u0101ta mahi tinihanga te kamupene ki a r\u0101tou m\u014D ng\u0101 whakaritenga o ng\u0101 rihi. Tae atu ki te k\u014Dti, ahakoa k\u0101ore t\u0113nei r\u012Bhi i tino \u0101mene mai te ture, i haramai te Karauna ki te hoko i te whenua engari he raru an\u014D t\u0113r\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EI kite ki roto i t\u0101ku nei p\u0101nuitanga o t\u0113nei pire ki a Ng\u0101ti Hei, otir\u0101 ng\u0101 whakatau ker\u0113me i tae mai ki mua i te aroaro o te Komiti Whiringa Take M\u0101ori, i p\u0113r\u0101 an\u014D ng\u0101 k\u014Drero me ng\u0101 raru, ng\u0101 t\u016Bkinotanga o te Public Works Act. N\u014D reira me mihi au ki t\u014D koutou nei tipuna, te tipuna i p\u0101nui au ki roto i ng\u0101 tuhinga o te pire, i a Ng\u0101whira Tainui. E ai ki te k\u014Drero i te tau 1923 i tuhi reta ia ki te Karauna m\u014D t\u0113tahi ruritanga ki te motu o Ahuahu, kia \u0101hei a ia ki te whakatakoto ker\u0113me \u0101-taitara ki te K\u014Dti Whenua M\u0101ori. Heoi an\u014D n\u0101 te takaroa o te Karauna, i t\u0101hae i raro i te Ture Hangahanga T\u016Bmatanui, ar\u0101 te Public Works Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EAnei an\u014D t\u0113r\u0101 k\u014Drero i rangona e ng\u0101 taringa o te M\u0101ori, ng\u0101 t\u016Bkino a te Public Works Act ki wiw\u012B, ki waw\u0101, puta noa i te motu, n\u0101 t\u0113r\u0101 taputapu i t\u0101hae ng\u0101 whenua. N\u014D reira n\u014Dku an\u014D te aroha ki a Ng\u0101ti Hei i tae t\u0113nei t\u016Bkinotanga ki runga i a koutou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EI p\u0113r\u0101 \u0101n\u014D ng\u0101 h\u0113 i tae atu ki Ahuahu. I kite au kua hokona e te Karauna, e ai ki \u014Dna whakatau, e ai ki \u014Dna whakapae, i Ahuahu engari k\u0101ore i te k\u014Drero ki a Ng\u0101ti Hei. N\u014D reira kua kore t\u014D r\u0101tou nei mau ki t\u014D r\u0101tou nei whenua ki Ahuahu.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EHeoi kei roto i te pire \u0113r\u0101 atu o ng\u0101 tauira e p\u0101 ana ki te raupatutanga \u0101-ture nei e p\u0101 ana ki a r\u0101tou o Ng\u0101ti Hei. N\u014D reira ko m\u0101tou ng\u0101 taringa areare ki t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 k\u014Drero.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EHeoi ko ng\u0101 whakaaro o m\u0101tou, ng\u0101 K\u0101k\u0101riki, ko te taha o te oranga ka taea e te iwi te tuku iho ng\u0101 k\u014Drero, kia tuhia ng\u0101 h\u012Btori hei wh\u0101ngai atu ki \u0101 r\u0101tou tamariki, \u0101 r\u0101tou nei mokopuna. Ko t\u0113tahi o ng\u0101 k\u014Drero i kite au ki roto i t\u0113nei pire e p\u0101 ana ki te ngarohanga o te m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori, te ngarohanga o te reo M\u0101ori, te ngarohanga o ng\u0101 ahurea o te M\u0101ori. Me te m\u014Dhio an\u014D ko t\u0113nei mea te m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori ko t\u0113tahi w\u0101hanga an\u014D kia p\u0113hea t\u0101tou e h\u0101pai ana i a t\u0101tou ki roto i te horopaki o ng\u0101 p\u014Draru o te \u0101huarangi. Ko m\u0101tou an\u014D ng\u0101 K\u0101k\u0101riki i kite i te oranga o te painga o t\u0113r\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira me mihi atu ki ng\u0101 kaiwhakarite o t\u0113nei pire kia kuhu \u0113r\u0101 kupu ki roto i te mea me hoki an\u014D t\u0101tou ki \u0113r\u0101 o ng\u0101 whakaaro o \u014D t\u0101tou nei m\u0101tua t\u012Bpuna; te piringa o te tangata ki te whenua, t\u0113r\u0101 te take i mea atu he \u201Ctangata whenua\u201D t\u0101tou. Kia m\u014Dhio mai t\u0101tou m\u0113n\u0101 ka hoki an\u014D t\u0101tou ki ng\u0101 whakaaro o ng\u0101 m\u0101tua t\u012Bpuna, k\u0101ore t\u0113r\u0101 raru o te taiao e p\u0101 ki a t\u0101tou, ar\u0101 ng\u0101 p\u014Draru o te \u0101huarangi, te matemate haere o te koiora ki roto i te moana. N\u014D reira, Ng\u0101ti Hei, ka mihi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EKo te mea an\u014D, ki t\u014D m\u0101tou nei whakaaro, o ng\u0101 K\u0101k\u0101riki, ko t\u0113nei mea te Tiriti o Waitangi ehara i te kirimana noa, ehara i te kirimana noa m\u014D te tauhokohoko rawa, tauhokohoko whenua; he kawenata. He kawenata me h\u0101pai atu i a t\u0101tou hei t\u016B\u0101papa m\u014D t\u0101tou katoa e noho ana ki Aotearoa nei. N\u014D reira me m\u0101tua m\u014Dhio mai t\u0101tou ki t\u0113r\u0101 o ng\u0101 whakaaro. M\u0101 runga i t\u0113r\u0101 ka taea e t\u0101tou te koke, te koke ki mua i runga i te Tiriti o Waitangi hei t\u016B\u0101papa m\u014D t\u014D t\u0101tou nei Whare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EMe mihi atu ki ng\u0101 m\u0101tua, ki ng\u0101 pakeke i whakapau werawera ki runga i te ara, ki runga i te haerenga kia tae t\u0113nei pire ki t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 w\u0101hi. I rongo au i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero a ng\u0101 mema puta noa i te Whare, me te mea atu kua roa te w\u0101 e h\u0101ereere ana t\u0113nei pire ki t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 w\u0101hi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira e mihi ana ki a r\u0101tou m\u0101 kua wehe atu, mihi atu ki ng\u0101 ringa raup\u0101 e h\u0101pai tonu ana i ng\u0101 mahi. Heoi kei te mihi atu an\u014D hoki ki te hunga i kaha ki te whakamahi i te mahi tae noa ki t\u014Dna tino otinga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira ko \u0113nei whakatau ker\u0113me he w\u0101hi an\u014D kia k\u014Drero i te k\u014Drero, kia whai w\u0101hi an\u014D t\u0101tou ki a t\u0101tou, me te m\u014Dhio an\u014D ko t\u0113nei mea ng\u0101 tukanga o te whakatau ker\u0113me ehara i te m\u0101m\u0101, he uaua. I au e kite ki roto i \u0113nei momo pire e haramai ki te Komiti Whiringa Take M\u0101ori, \u0113tahi w\u0101 i taupatupatu te tuakana me te teina, te m\u0101m\u0101 me te tuahine me te t\u016Bng\u0101ne. Heoi ko te mea nui me hoki an\u014D t\u0101tou ki te aroha o te tangata ki t\u014Dna whenua, otir\u0101 ki t\u014Dna hap\u016Btanga, ki t\u014Dna iwitanga, ki t\u014Dna takiw\u0101 an\u014D hoki.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira e te P\u012Bka, heoi an\u014D t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 p\u0101ti, te Paati K\u0101k\u0101riki, e mihi ana ki a koutou Ng\u0101ti Hei, e whakarongo ana \u0101-pouaka whakaata nei, \u0101-reo irirangi nei, \u0101-tinana nei ki t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 Whare. T\u0113n\u0101 koe, otir\u0101 t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E[Thank you, Mr Speaker. I stand as a member for the Greens to express our opinions on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EHowever my first greeting is to you, Ng\u0101ti Hei, those of you who arrived here in person, indeed those of you who are listening on the radio or on television, I acknowledge you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EI am one of the members of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, so this bill is coming to us to consider, and to analyse the statements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EMr Speaker, sometimes we are very lucky to go to the marae to listen to the home people. However, before we get there, the most important thing is to research what the genealogical links are, what are the initiatives happening there because I haven\u2019t yet been among Ng\u0101ti Hei, within their marae, so I really studied some of the concepts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003ESo I acknowledge their connections to that one of our ancestors, to P\u016Bkenga, it was because of his actions that the name Whitianga a Kupe was given, so I acknowledge that one of our illustrious ancestors, indeed to their connections to the Te Arawa confederation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EAccording to the history, the canoe landed at some of the places around Moehau, and names some of those places including the mountain, Moehau. Its full name is Te\u00A0Moengahau-o-Tamatekapua. According to the histories, it was Hei, he is an uncle to Tamatekapua, according to what I read on Te Ara, the online encyclopaedia. So I acknowledge that ancestor of yours, whose name was given to Te Whanga-a-Hei.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EMr Speaker, as I was reading the evidence of this bill, I perceived a lot of issues that the Crown caused Ng\u0101ti Hei. Some of the discussion, the context of the forestry companies that went into their place on a lease. Some of those places the Crown also came, and lied to the people of the land, and then the land was lost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EMr Speaker, the resource exploitation sector has long been present in the traditional lands of Ng\u0101ti Hei, from forestry to gum digging, flax milling, gold mining and also fisheries activities. The long-term benefits for Ng\u0101ti Hei that come from these companies have been minimal, and they are still being afflicted by the anguish of the mistreatment of the environment of their area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EThis is one of the discussions that will come, I believe, to the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee where our ears will be wide open to really hear what is what, what are the histories, the traditional knowledge of Ng\u0101ti Hei, to those of us on the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EFor example I saw in the bill, because there are many examples but one of them that really caught my eye, in 1885 the people of Ng\u0101ti Hei who owned K\u016Baotunu entered into a lease agreement with a forestry company, an initiative I heard about in my reading of the bill. According to the people who own the land, the lease gave the authority for forestry activities only, but according to them, the company truly deceived them with respect to the arrangements of the lease. It got to court, even though this lease wasn\u2019t really supported the legislation, the Crown came and bought the land but that is another issue altogether.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EI saw in my reading of this bill that Ng\u0101ti Hei, indeed the claims settlement came before the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, and they were the same stories and the same problems, the abuses of the Public Works Act. So I acknowledge your ancestor, the ancestor I read about in the documentation of this bill, Ng\u0101whira Tainui. According to the history, in 1923, he wrote a letter to the Crown about the surveying of the island of Ahuahu, so that he would be able to submit a title claim to the M\u0101ori Land Court. However, because of the Crown\u2019s delays, it was stolen under the Public Works Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EThis is again the statement that was heard by the ears of the M\u0101ori, the abuses of the Public Works Act here, there and everywhere, all around the country, it was that tool that misappropriated the lands. So I again have compassion for Ng\u0101ti Hei that these abuses were visited upon you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EThe harm that happened on Great Mercury Island was similar. I saw that Ahuahu was purchased by the Crown, according to its decisions and its assertions, but they did not discuss it with Ng\u0101ti Hei. So they weren\u2019t able to hold onto their lands at Great Mercury Island.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EHowever, there are other examples in the bill with respect to statutory confiscation that affected them, Ng\u0101ti Hei. So we are the ones with open ears to these particular statements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EHowever, our opinion, the Greens, with respect to wellbeing, the iwi is able to pass on their narratives, to write the histories to teach to their children and to their grandchildren. Some of the narratives that I saw within this bill were about the loss of traditional M\u0101ori knowledge, the loss of the M\u0101ori language, the loss of the culture of the M\u0101ori people. And we are cognisant that this thing, m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori, is one part of how we can uplift ourselves within the context of climate issues. It is us again, the Greens, that saw wellbeing in the benefits of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003ESo the drafters of this bill should be acknowledged, for including those words because we should return to those concepts of our forebears; the relationship of humanity with the land, that\u2019s the reason we are called \u201Cpeople of the land\u201D. We must be aware that if we return to the concepts of the forebears, that particular environmental issue will not affect us, ie climate issues, the demise of biodiversity within the ocean. So, Ng\u0101ti Hei, I acknowledge you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EAnother thing, in our opinion, the Greens, is that this thing, the Treaty of Waitangi, is not merely a contract, it is not merely a contract for the trade of resources, the purchase of land; it is a covenant. It is a covenant we should uphold as a basis for all of us that live here in Aotearoa. So we must first be aware of that particular idea. It is via that that we will be able to progress, to advance on the back of the Treaty of Waitangi as a foundation for our House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EThe parents and elders should be acknowledged for the sweat they expended on the path, on the journey to get this bill to this place. I heard the statements of the members all across the House, and they said that this bill has been going through this place for a long time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003ESo I acknowledge those who have passed on, I acknowledge those who worked hard to support all the work. However, I also acknowledge those who worked hard to bring all the work to its final conclusion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003ESo these claims settlements are another place to make the statements, for us to be together, and also to understand that the processes of the claims settlements are not easy, they are difficult. As I saw these types of bill coming to the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, sometimes older siblings are fighting with younger ones, mothers with sisters and brothers. However the most important thing is that we come back to compassion of humanity to its land, indeed to its sub-tribal and tribal associations, and to their regions too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003ESo Mr Speaker, this one of the parties, the Green Party, acknowledge you Ng\u0101ti Hei, who are listening on television, on the radio, and in person to this House of ours. Thank you, indeed thank all of you.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022 data-id=\u00227a5d3b65c1dd41419bd42128ba64ec75\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a5d3b65c1dd41419bd42128ba64ec75\u0022\u003ET\u0100MATI COFFEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Whakataka te hau ki te uru, whakataka te hau ki te tonga. Kia m\u0101kinakina ki uta, kia m\u0101taratara ki tai. E h \u012B ake ana te atakura. He tio, he huka, he hauh\u016B. Tihei Mauri Ora!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EE ng\u0101 whanaunga o te Arawa waka, anei t\u0113tahi o ng\u0101 uri o te waka e mihi atu nei ki a koutou, kotou ng\u0101 kaitiaki o t\u014D t\u0101tou nei t\u016Bpuna a Tamatekapua i roto i te maunga Moehau. Waiaua ki te R\u0101whiti e mihi atu nei ki a koutou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E[Cease oh winds of the west and of the south. Let the bracing breezes flow, over the land and the sea. Let the red-tipped dawn come with a sharpened edge, a touch of frost, a promise of a glorious day!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EOur kin from the Arawa canoe, here is a descendant of the canoe acknowledging you all, you all the guardians of our ancestor Tamatekapua at the sacred Moehau mountain. Waiaua to the east, greetings to you all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EThis is a big day, as we\u2019ve heard from previous speakers. A big day for Ng\u0101ti Hei, who started this journey quite some time ago. This is their time to shine, and I want to, if anything, just relay the sentiment that it has been a long journey. To Ng\u0101ti Hei that are in the room, to Ng\u0101ti Hei that are listening from afar, we acknowledge you and we acknowledge the journey that it\u2019s taken to get you here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EFor me, as a geek of New Zealand history\u2014a self-professed geek, as well\u2014I want to take this opportunity to be able to tell the historical story of Ng\u0101ti Hei. This is something that sits within their deed, but it\u2019s actually something that takes a lot of detail\u2014to be able to get your historians into the same room, your kuia, your kaum\u0101tua, to be able to get those stories down on paper is a really big thing. So I want to take an opportunity to read some of that historical account so that people out there that are listening, trying to sympathise with the plight of Ng\u0101ti Hei, to actually truly understand the hard journey that it\u2019s taken to even still be alive today. To be able to sit here in this House and talk about their Treaty settlement is a feat of nature unto itself. At the last census they identified that only 650 identified as Ng\u0101ti Hei. That means that the actions of the Crown which have sought to marginalise Ng\u0101ti Hei and wipe them off the face of this planet nearly happened\u2014it actually nearly happened. So I want to start in the historical account and I want the House to know that as this goes through the House, I hope that we continue to tell their story, their account, their acknowledgments, and, eventually, that sweetness of being able to hear the Crown apology back home, back on their whenua. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EIn 1836 and 1837, a timber trader made agreements with Ng\u0101ti Hei rangatira over lands on either side of the Ounuora River. In 1839, another trader negotiated a land transaction for an area around Tairua. Both claims were investigated by the Land Claims Commission. There were anomalies in the evidence presented to the commissions. The boundaries of the transactions and the goods given in payment to M\u0101ori were sometimes unclear. After accepting the commissioners\u2019 recommendations, the Crown awarded almost 7,000 acres of land in which Ng\u0101ti Hei had interests to European claimants. As a result, Ng\u0101ti Hei lost much of their coastal whenua. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EBetween 1858 and 1865, the Crown purchased Ahuahu, otherwise known as Great Mercury Island, from other Hauraki iwi. That\u2019s right, not Ng\u0101ti Hei\u2014other Hauraki iwi. There is no evidence that Ng\u0101ti Hei were consulted about this purchase or that they received payment for their customary interests in this land. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EBetween 1859 and 1865, the Crown bought over 20,000 acres of land in the Ng\u0101ti Hei rohe. The Crown did not provide reserves for Ng\u0101ti Hei, nor did it require any assessment as to whether Ng\u0101ti Hei retained adequate land for their needs. Between 1870 and 1890, 15 large blocks with 1,000 acres or more, totalling over 93,000 acres, were permanently alienated from Ng\u0101ti Hei. The Crown purchased 12 of those blocks, which amounted to over 81,000 acres in total. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EIn 1885, the Ng\u0101ti Hei owners of K\u016Baotunu 3 entered into a lease arrangement with a timber felling company. The owners considered that the lease gave the company only the right to harvest timber. The owners claimed that the company had deliberately misled them over the contents of this lease, which included rights to land. The timber company took its case to the Validation Court in 1895. Ng\u0101ti Hei incurred considerable costs attending the court hearing in Auckland. The court rejected the timber company\u2019s case. At the same time, the Crown was in the process of purchasing interests in K\u016Baotunu 3. The Crown refused to give Ng\u0101ti Hei a reserve at Te Whauwhau, partly on the basis that there had been no reserve granted in the lease, despite the lease having no legal standing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EThere has been a history of extractive industry in the Ng\u0101ti Hei rohe, including kauri logging, kauri gum digging, flax milling, gold mining, and fishing. Ng\u0101ti Hei have derived little long-term benefit from these industries and the damage done to the environment in their rohe is a source of grievance for them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EIn 1923, Ngawhira Tanui of Ng\u0101ti Hei wrote to the Crown to ask for a survey of Ohinau Island for the purpose of taking her claims for ownership to the Native Land Court. The Crown reacted by delaying the Native Land Court hearings while it surveyed the island and then took it under the Public Works Act of 1908. Although the Crown needed only a small part of that land for a lighthouse, it acquired the whole 72-acre island. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EBy the end of the 20th century, Ng\u0101ti Hei were virtually landless. The resulting marginalisation of Ng\u0101ti Hei, including loss of te reo M\u0101ori, educational underachievement, sickness, and socio-economic deprivation, caused the iwi much suffering. The Crown\u2019s discouragement of te reo M\u0101ori, along with the fragmentation of Ng\u0101ti Hei tribal structures and the migration from ancestral lands, severely impacted Ng\u0101ti Hei\u2019s ability to pass m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori on to their mokopuna.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EThat there is the summary of the historical account. I hope that people here in this House, fellow colleagues, parliamentarians, but also those people that are listening to this and will continue to listen to this into the future, I hope they understand the depth of this historical account. I hope that they understand that when you alienate a people from their land, as the Crown has done over a very long time now, it serves to displace the people that originally inhabited those lands. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EI look forward to progressing this through to the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee in what little time we\u2019ve got left of this Parliament. I look forward to Ng\u0101ti Hei being able to tell their story in their own authentic way. I look forward to hearing from other iwi who believe that they may be impacted by this settlement. I look forward to that whole process. This is the moment where we pull the bandage off and we have a look at the hakihaki underneath and we try and chart a pathway forward. It\u2019s going to be maybe a bit triggering for some of the remaining members of Ng\u0101ti Hei to be able to hear these stories, but it needs to be done for them to be able to get to the point where they hear a Government apology out of the mouth of our Minister Andrew Little, the current Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations\u2014I acknowledge him for bringing this to the House\u2014but also for them to be able to move forward and seize the future opportunities. And while it might sound good to those people that look at what the redress looks like, we in this House know that it will never ever account for the injustice that happened through structures that this Parliament, this Crown, put in place to absolutely marginalise and wipe out these people. It will never ever compensate for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EBut I acknowledge, again, Ng\u0101ti Hei for their perseverance in going through this process that the Crown marginalised them out of in the first place and that the Crown\u2019s trying to do and trying to fix it up so that we can move forward together with opportunities. And can I say that there are some opportunities in there, co-governance opportunities, as well, for the iwi to have to work with local councils back home in the Coromandel, and that may be very triggering and very scary for some members of the community out there. But I\u2019m a firm believer that when you have historical grievance like this, the only way forward is together, and I acknowledge Ng\u0101ti Hei for even wanting to continue to go on this journey with the Crown, who were the ones that actually perpetrated the injustice in the first place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EI acknowledge you. I wish you well on your journey going forward. I wish you well on conversations around what co-governance looks like. You are truly heroes in this equation, in this kaupapa. And I acknowledge all of those that have passed on in recent years, because they haven\u2019t been able to be here today to be part of this journey. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira huri huri noa i t\u0113nei Whare, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou. Mauri ora ki a t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226590faa0-f76b-4386-84f3-9b06296cc772\u0022\u003E[And so, to all four corners of this House, thank you once, thank you twice. And may the force be with us all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022e423afa6fe80420a8b37bcf2edabbe01\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e423afa6fe80420a8b37bcf2edabbe01\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Kia ora. Our next call is a split call. I call on Sam Uffindell for five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022 data-id=\u0022da02d2de22904724bde94aafb6f8c5f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da02d2de22904724bde94aafb6f8c5f7\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I just want to acknowledge everyone from Ng\u0101ti Hei up in the audience today; welcome here to our Parliament. It\u2019s fantastic to have you here in attendance for what I\u2019m sure is an incredibly historic day for you as you progress here, so well done, and thank you very much for being here. I won\u2019t speak with the eloquence of T\u0101mati, who is just leaving the Chamber, but I recognise what he has said, and I saw a lot of nodding when he was speaking, so I\u2019m sure a lot of what he said meant a lot to you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EThe purpose of this is the final settlement of the historic Treaty claims of Ng\u0101ti Hei, resulting from acts or omissions by the Crown prior to 21 September 1992. It includes an agreed historical account, Crown acknowledgments, apology, cultural redress, and financial and commercial redress as well. And I know the part of the country where you hail from\u2014your rohe\u2014I spent a lot of time up there as a child, and it is absolutely spectacular, so you\u2019re very fortunate to be able to call that your home; it is a beautiful, beautiful part of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EI note here that as we move forward, there is a fair bit of redress and it may not compensate for what was taken from you back in the 19th century, but I hope through the settlement process that there is a chance for everyone to move forward. And I also hope that through the lands that you receive or the minerals that are contained in them, there is the opportunity there for you to create significant economic benefits for yourself, for your children, for your families and wh\u0101nau, because it is a beautiful and rich area of New Zealand and there is indeed enormous opportunities in there. So I\u2019m sure you will take them up with both hands and do a fantastic job for future generations. The National Party supports this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u00222e010a7a76724571b00ed300562c38a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e010a7a76724571b00ed300562c38a2\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Te Paati M\u0101ori\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou e te Whare. Otir\u0101 t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, e hika m\u0101. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou kua haramai \u0101-tinana nei ki t\u0113nei Whare i runga i te \u0101huatanga o t\u0113nei kaupapa. Ka roa nei koutou e whawhai nei. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003ENg\u0101 uri o Hei, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou. Karanga mai ki t\u0113nei uri o Houmaitawhiti, o Tamatekapua, heke iho, heke iho, heke iho. He uri an\u014D hoki t\u0113nei n\u014D Paikea Ariki i \u016B r\u0101 ki Ahuahu, ka moea a Te \u0100huru-moa-i-raka, ar\u0101 koia an\u014D hoki he honohonotanga i waenga i a t\u0101tou. Ng\u0101 mihi nui an\u014D hoki, ka tangi tonu ki a r\u0101tou k\u0101re i konei i t\u0113nei w\u0101: ng\u0101 pakeke, \u014D koutou t\u012Bpuna ka roa nei i roto i te \u0101huatanga o Ng\u0101ti Hei e whawhai nei m\u014D \u014D koutou whenua, m\u014D t\u014D koutou mana motuhake, m\u014D t\u014D koutou rangatiratanga. Nei r\u0101 Te Paati M\u0101ori e mihi nei ki a koutou i t\u0113nei r\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E[Greetings to us all, greetings to us all, to the House. Indeed greetings to you, my friends. Thanks to you who have come here in person to this House under the auspices of this initiative. You have been fighting for a long time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EThe descendants of Hei, greetings. Call in, welcome, to this descendant of Houmaitawhiti, of Tamatekapua, and on down through the generations. I am also a descendant of Paikea Ariki who landed at Great Mercury Island and married Te \u0100huru-moa-i-raka, and that again is another connection between us.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003ENg\u0101ti Hei has a profound history. On 12 November 1769, the first written account of a p\u014D\u2019hiri between M\u0101ori and P\u0101keh\u0101 occurred when Captain Cook was invited to Wharetaewa P\u0101 at Wharekaho in Whitianga. He spent 12 days at Te Whanganui a Hei, measuring the transit of Mercury across the sun, trading, and resupplying his ship. But within 50 years of his arrival, Ng\u0101ti Hei numbers would be decimated to less than 100. Ng\u0101ti Hei would lose their land, their language, their culture. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003ETe Paati M\u0101ori does not accept that settlements are full and final; we\u2019ve said that in the past and we say that today. Our trauma does not lie in the past. Inequality, poverty, the desecration of Papat\u016B\u0101nuku, and the separation of wh\u0101nau and whakapapa is happening in the present and will continue to be our future if we continue down this track. We also know, too well, the divide and conquer tactics of the Crown, the ignoring and sidelining of wh\u0101nau, and attempting to pit each other against each other. That is not our tikanga. Ehara n\u0101 t\u0101tou t\u0113r\u0101 t\u016B \u0101huatanga. [That phenomenon is not ours.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EThat comes from a Crown process that we have to try and navigate our way through. It\u2019s difficult; it\u2019s difficult for this claim and it\u2019s difficult for other claims. Divisions that are engineered by the Crown negotiation policies like large natural groupings and the fiscal envelope that was based on the monetary stipulations in 1991\u2014it\u2019s now 2023, but they continue to use the same fiscal envelope that was in 1991-1992. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EThe settlement, as others have also done, includes a particular insulting practice of vesting properties\u2014just give it all back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EKoina te k\u014Drero: whakahokia atu. I riro whenua atu; hoki whenua mai. Me p\u0113r\u0101 pea taku k\u014Drero.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E[That\u2019s the assertion: return it. Land was taken; land returned. Perhaps that should be my statement.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003ENever mind all this other rubbish. I can\u2019t wait to go to the select committee and have that discussion, because it is unjust, it is dishonourable, and that is what this Crown is\u2014always has been, always will be. These types of practices\u2014the honouring of the Tiriti o Waitangi say, \u201CTe Tiriti o Waitangi is not for settling\u201D. \u0100e, it is not for settling; it\u2019s for honouring. Koina te mahi. [That\u2019s the job.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EHonour Te Tiriti, not settle Te Tiriti. And that\u2019s a message to everybody in this House: we didn\u2019t sign that Treaty for you to settle it, we signed that Treaty for you to honour it. So it\u2019s now time to honour it, and ensure that we don\u2019t just get 1 percent of our due. Where\u2019s the 99 percent? So full and final settlement must never ever be something that we settle for, because our mokopuna must be around to fight for the other 99 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EKoinei te k\u014Drero ki a t\u0101tou, e hika m\u0101; koinei te t\u016B a Te Paati M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E[This is what I have to say to us all, my friends; this is the position of Te Paati M\u0101ori.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EOur mana motuhake policy ensures that the Treaty settlement process is not full and final; ensures that everybody gets relativity as Ng\u0101i Tahu and Waikato did, because it\u2019s about mana \u014Drite; ensures that we don\u2019t just get 1 percent, and that our mokopuna are there to fight for the other 99 percent. These are the roadblocks that the Crown puts in front of us; these are the injustices. I can\u2019t wait to have this argument within the select committee because I have the honour of sitting on that committee to ensure that our voice is heard on that particular space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EE Ng\u0101ti Hei, kua pau te waho ki a au, engari nei r\u0101 te mihi atu ki a koutou, ki a koutou ka roa nei e whawhai nei ki t\u0113nei kaupapa. Anei r\u0101, i runga i te ara whanaunga, e mihi nei, e tangi nei, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E[Ng\u0101ti Hei, my time has run out, but I\u2019d like to acknowledge you, you who have been fighting this fight for a long time. Here, on the path of kinship, I acknowledge you, I grieve with you, thanks to you all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u00229f364bcc50fe416e86a73d56671e5db5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f364bcc50fe416e86a73d56671e5db5\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E E mihi ana ki a koutou kua tau mai nei i runga i te karanga o te kaupapa o te ra, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E[Greetings to you all who have arrived here today for the purpose of this matter, thank you once, thank you twice, and thank you thrice.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EIt is moments like these that I do see hope in this House. I also see the challenge and hear the frustration from my colleague across the floor, Rawiri Waititi, who just spoke. Who am I to speak on this? And I do often question myself. Take my words lightly; take them on or let them go, because they are mere words today in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge Ng\u0101ti Hei, to acknowledge the ancestors of Ng\u0101ti Hei, who have gone before you, both long before, recently, and even today. For those of you who are here in this place or are here at this time, I acknowledge you and the work\u2014the mahi\u2014you have done to get us here today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EAs has been mentioned, I want to acknowledge the previous Minister, the Hon Chris Finlayson, and the current Minister, the Hon Andrew Little, who comes from a place that I come from, from Taranaki. I am an MP who now lives in a region that has gone through this process, and all eight iwi have come to a place of settlement. But I hope that this is a place of hope in a future, and I do hold those words \u201Cfull and final\u201D lightly, because I see it as being about a place of launching to what the future can be\u2014the past that shouldn\u2019t have been, but a future that is to be\u2014and it is one that is prosperous, it is one that is inclusive, and it is one that will see future generations grow and thrive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003ESo I want to acknowledge those who are to come from Ng\u0101ti Hei; to acknowledge your tamariki, your rangatahi, your p\u0113p\u0113; to acknowledge those who won\u2019t be born for generations but who, I hope, when they are born on to this whenua, on to your whenua, in generations to come, will see this day not as the process into a full and final settlement but as a process around reclaiming the mana of your people\u2014a time of re-empowering, of enabling, of enlivening your story, your whakapapa, your ancestors, and those to come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI hope that your generations who are to come will look back at this time and will learn from what has been. We talk about the wrongs of the past, and we talk about the historic nature of hundreds of years that have gone on and what pain we in this building have caused, but that is still something that exists today and something that we as a Government, that we as a House of Representatives, need to lean into to ensure that, yes, we have done wrong, but there are still things going on today that we must address, that I must address as P\u0101keh\u0101, as someone who has had the privilege of living on your whenua.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EThis is about breaches of Te Tiriti o Waitangi, but this is about the future and how we can move forward together. And, no, we can\u2019t right what has been wronged, but we need to acknowledge it, and my people and I need to learn and to step on to that bridge, and cross that bridge that is around partnership, that is around friendship, that is around honouring something that we signed, that my people signed more than 180 years ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003EI support this and I acknowledge the people of Ng\u0101ti Hei and I commend this to the House. N\u014D reira, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022 data-id=\u00228f90d6cb5b7044a2a2ca8f58fd9ea94b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f90d6cb5b7044a2a2ca8f58fd9ea94b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID BENNETT (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. First, my acknowledgment to Ng\u0101ti Hei and your negotiators that have come here today and the work that you\u2019ve gone through on behalf of your people over many years. It takes a lot to get to that stage where people agree to have that negotiation and it takes a lot to get to the stage where you actually get to a negotiated settlement. So we pay tribute to you for your leadership, for your wh\u0101nau going forward, and also to the negotiators from the Crown for the work that they did as well. So thank you and it\u2019s an honour for us in this House to be here with you today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EAs you can hear, there are some people that have a great understanding of the history and the communities involved, and there are some people that have less of an understanding but a willingness to see a solution that is enduring going forward. There are many points of view, whether it is an enduring solution or there\u2019s more work to be done, and those things will not be sorted in this room here today. They are things that will develop over time, I\u2019m sure, as this country develops in the future. But then, in total, you have the support of this House for this settlement and for the start that it gives and the redress and the apology that it starts the process of healing around.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard a couple of speakers that have gone through the deed of settlement and talked about some of the history around that land. As a farmer, your family\u2019s first, but farming the land\u2019s second. You just can\u2019t fathom the pain that would be involved in some of the actions that have been taken, the losses that have been incurred, not only for your iwi but around the country. It is actually something that is amazing to see that we actually get to this stage after what\u2019s actually happened. But in saying that, we\u2019ve got to move on and this is part of that process. To see the settlement there gives a starting point, I guess, for Ng\u0101ti Hei going forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003EWhen we look at the area, I can\u2019t say I have too much relationship with the eastern Coromandel. It\u2019s a long way away from Hamilton in some ways, even though many Hamiltonians spend more time there than I do. But it is a wonderful part of our country, and no redress can ever give back for what that land and those communities and the physical attributes of that area actually mean to Ng\u0101ti Hei. The compensation in here of $8.5 million is really broken down into a share of a station, effectively, and that is a starting point, I guess, to enable greater development there. A house in that area can sell for $8.5 million\u2014that\u2019s the reality of what has actually happened in that area over that period of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaf79431-1033-44f1-a633-22633da52c0d\u0022\u003ESo it will never compensate, I\u2019m sure. And there\u2019s another settlement\u2014the Hauraki settlement\u2014that you will be part of that may be part of that agenda as well. But I guess when Tama Potaka told about the 600 people and many not having their own home, many on low incomes, there\u2019s a lot of work to be done there to build that community up to a position where there is that independence. And that, I guess, is what everybody in this room wishes to see for all our people is to be able to run and live independent lives where they are able to make their own future. So in no way will this ever compensate for what has been lost, but we acknowledge the spirit of Ng\u0101ti Hei, the way you\u2019ve come and made this starting process, and we look forward to the progress that you will make in the future as future generations continue to build and work on what your legacy is that you\u2019ve set today. It is not finished\u2014the job is not finished for you. It will continue, but I\u2019m sure that over time you will get the benefits of that, and we thank you for the ability for us to be part of that journey for you. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022 data-id=\u00229115b041500340598f54c0b18864d0cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229115b041500340598f54c0b18864d0cd\u0022\u003ESORAYA PEKE-MASON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Whakaw\u0101. Whai kor\u014Dria, hareruia ki a Ihowa o ng\u0101 mano, te Matua, Tama, Wairua Tapu me ng\u0101 anahera pono me te M\u0101ngai. Tat\u016B ki ng\u0101 t\u016B\u0101kana wairua, \u0100repa, \u014Cmeka, Piriwiritua, Hamuera, ko te M\u0101ngai kei roto \u0101ke, \u0101ke tonu atu.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003ENg\u0101 mihi nui ki a koutou ng\u0101 uri o Ng\u0101ti Hei. Mihi ki ng\u0101 t\u016Bpuna me ng\u0101 mate kei runga i a koutou kua tae mai ki t\u0113nei r\u0101, kia mihia, kia tangi\u2019ia i roto i t\u0113nei r\u0101. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003ET\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa e ng\u0101 kaum\u0101tua, kuia, pakeke, rangatahi, tamariki me ng\u0101 mokopuna. Kei te harikoa au kua tae mai koutou ki te rongo ki te p\u0101nuitanga tuatahi o t\u014D koutou whakaaetanga, whakataunga i roto i t\u0113nei Whare e t\u016B nei.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003EOtir\u0101 t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003E[Thank you, Madam Speaker. Glory, halleluiah to Jehovah of the multitudes, Father, Son, Holy Spirit and the true angels and the Mouthpiece. To the spiritual seniors, Alpha, Omega, Willie who persevered, Samuel, with the Mouthpiece in forever and ever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003EMany thanks to you the descendants of Ng\u0101ti Hei. Greetings to the ancestors and the dearly departed upon you who have arrived here today, so that they may be acknowledged and grieved for on this day. Thanks and greetings to all of you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003EGreetings to all of you, the patriarchs, matriarchs, elders, young people, children and grandchildren. I am happy that you have arrived to listen to the first reading of your agreement, settlement in this House that stands here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003EIndeed, greetings and thanks to all of you.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003EIt is with peaceful and happy spirits that I acknowledge uri o Ng\u0101ti Hei\u2014those who have passed, those today, and those yet to come\u2014and speak on this first reading of your claim.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003EThe vision of Ng\u0101ti Hei is aspirational. That is to preserve and enhance what has been handed down to them and for those yet to come. They wish to preserve and share Ng\u0101ti Hei\u2019s unique\u2014and it is very unique\u2014history, to retain the lands and their cultural taonga inherited from their t\u016Bpuna. This includes holding on to and building up their people\u2019s knowledge of te reo M\u0101ori and tikanga. \u201CWhakapapa binds us together.\u201D\u2014that is what I have found on the website of Ng\u0101ti Hei.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003EI acknowledge my own whakapapa. My father died when I was three years old. I was raised by my mother on Te Awa Tupua o Whanganui, of which I place here today a mauri k\u014Dhatu given to me by my wh\u0101nau of the awa to guide, to nurture, to manaaki this journey as I share with you, uri Ng\u0101ti Hei. Sadly, I know little about my Papa, Joseph Peke, and Nana Sophie. But what I do know and acknowledge is my whakapapa to Ng\u0101ti Tamater\u0101 and his whenua. I acknowledge that toto that flows in your veins, in our veins. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003EThe summary of history, the background, dates back to 1836 and to 1923. It\u2019s a very, very long, long time. The settlement is grounded in the Crown\u2019s acknowledgment of this history, and, as mentioned by colleagues earlier on, it has taken far too long. The settlement entails Crown acknowledgments and apology, cultural redress, and significant relationships. It includes a collective redress and a financial commercial redress. Within that is the transfer of shares of Whenuakite Station, jointly, with Ng\u0101ti Tamater\u0101. I acknowledge the negotiators, in particular the late Peter Tiki Johnston and his son today, Peter Matai Johnston, and Joe Davis. It\u2019s a challenging task for any iwi to negotiate, at the best of times, this construct, this system of colonialism that we have to endure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003EHaving experience on a post-settlement governance entity (PSGE) of one of my tribes, I want to acknowledge the trustees of the Ng\u0101ti Hei PSGE. I know how much sacrifice, how much determination, how much perseverance, and how much courage it takes to fill those roles\u2014t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. Thank you to the Crown negotiators and all those involved. I look forward to the settlement making its way through the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee and through the Whare, and bringing hope and the fulfilment of Ng\u0101ti Hei\u2019s aspirations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira ng\u0101 manaakitanga me te aroha ki a koutou ng\u0101 uri me ng\u0101 whanaunga. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003E[So care and compassion to you, the descendants and family members. Greetings and thanks to all of us.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003EI commend this to the House, kia ora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ed9f7e2a-8a0b-4bd9-a526-13450770b2db\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b44cb6a93df743da9fb5cd984e984391\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the Ng\u0101ti Hei Claims Settlement Bill be considered by the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EBill referred to the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002248d5ec6422cd4db583417a62d688cd33\u0022\u003EAmended Answers to Oral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226ad6b73a24634c488cbe198b1ab979b6\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6 to Minister, 8 June\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022ffa9e3dff5b7466fb47da99cdb22c8a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ffa9e3dff5b7466fb47da99cdb22c8a3\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Associate Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. I seek leave to correct an answer given on Thursday, 8 June.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa83a76db7b94154b2febb6bbea938df\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276aa63e7611d450f8f1da51cbeb45f72\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: In reply to question No. 6 on Thursday, 8 June, I inadvertently gave incorrect information. I stated that the healthy homes standards do not apply to boarding houses. In fact, the healthy homes standards do apply to boarding-house tenancies. The regulation for healthy homes standards made under the Residential Tenancies Act took effect in boarding-house tenancies from 1\u00A0July\u00A02021. They will take effect for K\u0101inga Ora tenancies and community housing tenancies from 1 July 2024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221290b9c18ad44696863f0d38b9e8c3ee\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u002280006a3134da4eb299cc38da6b66a144\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280006a3134da4eb299cc38da6b66a144\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order\u2014Madam Speaker, point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271d5a217c68e4d69b3b76d416c5cc7dd\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Oh! Point of order, the Hon Ginny Andersen\u2014just in time!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c97660af3704b4b94880364baa592cc\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to make a personal explanation to correct an oral answer from question No. 8 today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aae4cbfcc9cc481ebf8367b88bae7e99\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220958ce7269ee4f03a7fa9b3b3e248405\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: In response to Nicole McKee\u2019s primary question today, I stated that 26 vehicles were seized under the Government\u2019s new legislation. I should have said that 26 vehicles were, in fact, searched.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002254d8ae838f6e40b18980bc7776db652e\u0022\u003EHouse in Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fc23c4b55ed04d52bea2ed7d7828f07b\u0022\u003EHouse in Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022624deadeea0c4d5380da8f792aa0a6f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022624deadeea0c4d5380da8f792aa0a6f6\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Grocery Industry Competition Bill, the Charities Amendment Bill, the Worker Protection (Migrant and Other Employees) Bill, and the Business Payment Practices Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224454c59c87ee474cbbee01e31df017ca\u0022\u003EGrocery Industry Competition Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b8b33503d38148bdacc28c9eed669512\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000461\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 16 May.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a92ebbfb8db3400ba9831a83aef8a192\u0022\u003EPart 5  Miscellaneous (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022bdc2cea7b6044996ab265d7eea5785b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bdc2cea7b6044996ab265d7eea5785b5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Grocery Industry Competition Bill. When we were last considering this bill, we were debating the question that Part 5 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00220c1697da4e6e45168cd8d841e8bff63f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c1697da4e6e45168cd8d841e8bff63f\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E I just wanted to confirm that we can talk about Supplementary Order Paper 353?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225eef41a393e249aebf3a65063bacb18d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, we can, at this part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a61009db0625425b92b37f44523bec4e\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: We can. OK. Obviously, a number of changes have been proposed in the Supplementary Order Paper 353. There\u2019s two issues I just want to pick up on: most of this is pretty self-explanatory, but I just want to refer to clause 64\u2014there\u2019s a new term put in here under 64(1)(a), which refers to \u201Cand \u2026 ancillary services\u201D. I\u2019d be quite keen if the Minister could take the opportunity just to explain exactly what the intent of that is; and then there\u2019s obviously quite significant changes to subclause (4)\u2014hopefully the Minister can just give us a bit of the insight into those specific changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022800c62102337456c9cd4abd06ba97aa0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: So the advice that I have, Andrew Bayly, is that clause 64 is part of Part 3, not Part 5. So I\u2019ll give you another call to talk about another part\u2014within Part 5, please. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00228c863981c2424e1bbe7aa096725e010f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c863981c2424e1bbe7aa096725e010f\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E OK, I\u2019m just picking up on this new Supplementary Order Paper (SOP). Maybe the other aspect I was just keen to talk about is actually clause 163, which is in Part 5. So there\u2019s been a change under this SOP as well, which introduced the concept that whilst it\u2019s intended that there will be a Grocery Commissioner, in many respects that person will operate alone. Under the SOP change, there\u2019s now the introduction of two or more members of the commission and it then sets out when that takes place. I\u2019d just like to hear from the Minister: is that at the discretion of the commissioner, who in some cases can either request it and it\u2019s got to be agreed to by the commissioner? And I\u2019m talking about the overall commerce commissioner, not the Grocery Commissioner. But just what is the arrangement for when two or more commissioners may be asked to undertake specific roles as set out in clause 163(2) specifically?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3b285c275dd4dbdade1dfb18ea98e7b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3b285c275dd4dbdade1dfb18ea98e7b\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. The powers of the commission have been pretty well traversed last time we were in committee, but clause 163(2) makes it relatively clear that this is at the request of the Grocery Commissioner, and I wouldn\u2019t want to, in this House, fetter any discretion that the commissioner might have in making the decision of when that\u2019s necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8d2e6f03c8547858e2b0692f4167d6e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8d2e6f03c8547858e2b0692f4167d6e\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Just to be clear, I think if I just take\u2014reinterpreting what the Minister said: is it correct, my understanding, that if the Grocery Commissioner requests two or more, then the two additional commissioners need to, or have to, be appointed? Or is it also subject to the Commerce Commission commissioner\u2019s approval as well? How is that mechanism triggered?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00229e87513dda4945eea6dcfe4d3d669df4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e87513dda4945eea6dcfe4d3d669df4\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s self-explanatory in clause 163(1)(b). They are two or more other members of the commission. They\u2019re, of course, going to be existing members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022da6f65a0ba7a443f8cda9b2ec689a643\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da6f65a0ba7a443f8cda9b2ec689a643\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I\u2019m struggling with that. I\u2019m not quite sure that was my question\u2014I know there\u2019s two or more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ELook, we have traversed this, and I\u2019d like to ask the question again, but I don\u2019t think the Minister is going to answer the question. Maybe he doesn\u2019t know the answer, but the final thing\u2014obviously, we debated this bill substantially the last time it was before the House. My final question around this grocery bill\u2014and it was the one I wanted to ask right at the end of the last session\u2014is what assurance can the Minister give the committee that the Grocery Commissioner, who\u2019s in the process of being recruited, will have the requisite skills of really understanding the grocery trade, and we don\u2019t necessarily end up with getting people who, particularly, have a legal background or who may have an economics background, but we actually end up with someone who has a real, in-depth understanding of the grocery trade? Because we\u2019ve made it clear, in our support of this bill, that one of the most critical aspects of this bill is to have the appointment of an appropriate person with the appropriate skills and experience of the grocery trade to make this role meaningful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EWe are concerned that we may end up with someone who has a general understanding of the grocery trade and may have specific skills either legally or economically. But, actually, that\u2019s not what our support was predicated on, because we believe that for this role to be effective over time, it requires someone with very detailed working knowledge of the grocery trade. What assurance can the Minister give to the committee that that type of person will be recruited by the Commerce Commission? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022028a829f542c433c8857f8edc41b040b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022028a829f542c433c8857f8edc41b040b\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m very happy to answer these questions. Obviously clause 163, in terms of the powers of the Grocery Commissioner, makes it clear that the Grocery Commissioner may appoint an additional two commissioners, but, of course, \u201Cmust\u201D if the powers in subclause (2) are being exercised\u2014and they\u2019re set out for Mr Bayly to read. In terms of his advice to me on the appointment of the commissioner, all I can say is that those are things that I\u2019m holding very much in the forefront of my mind and that the appointments process is well progressed, and I can assure him he need have no concerns that the appointment won\u2019t be of a person well-equipped for the role. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022 data-id=\u0022d11f518b12864190baf1a5654a78dd6a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d11f518b12864190baf1a5654a78dd6a\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m just looking at clause 167, \u201CCommission must have regard to economic policies of Government\u201D, and wanting to be quite careful that we don\u2019t end up politicising a Public Service role by putting them through. It notes there that \u201Cthe commission must have regard to any economic policies of the Government\u201D, so I am just hoping to hear from the Minister around what this may entail and what advice he has sought and received around how that would look. If you could give a couple of practical examples, that would be appreciated. Thank you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022878922c857e04ca9935cc81938728c54\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022878922c857e04ca9935cc81938728c54\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m happy to answer that. It\u2019s not unusual for the Government to make expectations clear to independent entities, and this clause 167 makes it clear exactly how that should happen. For example, it\u2019s a clear Government priority, in the current environment, to have a lowcarbon, highly productive economy, and those kinds of directions could quite easily be given to the Grocery Commissioner to outline the Government\u2019s economic priorities and to make sure that any actions taken by the commissioner are consistent with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022 data-id=\u00228ad2beb8b94a422d95d56069c66eb1c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ad2beb8b94a422d95d56069c66eb1c0\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E I asked for a couple of examples there, Madam Chair, and the Minister came back and said, \u201COh, you know, high-level, lowcarbon economy\u201D sort of feedback on that. But I\u2019m wondering how that applies to what this is actually about here, which is making sure that the grocery prices that these big supermarkets can charge\u2014and what the New Zealand taxpayer or the New Zealand consumer pays\u2014how that is addressed through that. Because from what I understand, that is what we are trying to address here, right? So to say that the commission will have regard for a low-carbon economy, I\u2019m not really sure that that\u2019s actually addressing what we are trying to address here, which is making sure that New Zealand families aren\u2019t getting fleeced when they go to the supermarket. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u002244727ed3a9384f4ea94801df17e1d0e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244727ed3a9384f4ea94801df17e1d0e5\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I\u2019m so glad the Minister actually tried to address my questions because it became illuminating. So from what I understand\u2014I think I\u2019m correct in my interpretation\u2014the Minister just stated that the Grocery Commissioner, which is a warranted position, is able to appoint two additional commissioners. So my question then becomes, because I\u2019ve perhaps had an assumption that he or she\u2014the Grocery Commissioner\u2014may rely on existing commissioners within the Commerce Commission, because there are a number of commissioners. Is it the Minister\u2019s view\u2014and it\u2019s a genuine question\u2014are we talking about the appointment of further commissioners who are not currently existing commissioners of the Commerce Commission, and, if so, is that a new warranted position? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022c53865752e5346009f6434402859c6f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c53865752e5346009f6434402859c6f1\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ve already answered that question quite clearly; I\u2019d invite Mr Bayly to read the Hansard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00227187b01981e94ee7bcf3b86bbe5a7e13\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227187b01981e94ee7bcf3b86bbe5a7e13\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E OK. Well, thank you very much for that short and unhelpful reply. I hope, in the spirit of trying to get a good bill\u2014I think the Minister\u2019s showing a great deal of insensitivity and poor order\u2014my next question to the Minister: is he able to provide the committee with some indication of when the Grocery Commissioner might be appointed? Hopefully, the Minister will move and resist the temptation to be rude and insulting to the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9f65c01a59043e49dba46cb33bfeded\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9f65c01a59043e49dba46cb33bfeded\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m still waiting for an adequate response back from the Minister on clause 167 and what some tangible examples would be; I didn\u2019t receive any last time. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00225c67423a417c40858dcfd5c07d004ddf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c67423a417c40858dcfd5c07d004ddf\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E To Mr Uffindell: I did give him a tangible example of the Government policy, but I won\u2019t presuppose what it will be in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ETo Mr Bayly: as I said, the appointment of the Grocery Commissioner is well progressed. It, of course, won\u2019t happen before this legislation\u2019s passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022 data-id=\u002229f5a23039ec45a9823c8062e8e5620c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002229f5a23039ec45a9823c8062e8e5620c\u0022\u003EDAMIEN SMITH (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. To the Minister: just the way the bill is written, would I be right in saying that the designation should apply to cooperatives only\u2014not, for example, Gilmours, who is a wholesaler\u2014that the supplier obligations would fall on all cooperatives only, not the bits that make it up?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00228d3f60ab6315400bb1285cb30c4fe02c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d3f60ab6315400bb1285cb30c4fe02c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: I wonder if the member can state his question again. I couldn\u2019t really hear what he was asking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022 data-id=\u0022bbb76ff74c7c4aba97506e9b7e14c2f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bbb76ff74c7c4aba97506e9b7e14c2f9\u0022\u003EDAMIEN SMITH (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s just for the Commerce Commission direction. The way the bill is written at the moment, the supplier designation should only apply to cooperatives, and not someone like Gilmours, who\u2019s a wholesaler food service. But the supplier vocations, if correct, should fall on all the cooperatives only, not all the individual bits that make up the supply chain.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022ecd3fcb525b1458db77a23b37f8080c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ecd3fcb525b1458db77a23b37f8080c2\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E My understanding here is that the bill is intended to capture grocery retailers. Gilmours is a wholesaler, and so the main object of this bill is to generate competition in the retail grocery market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022 data-id=\u0022705bed482a4d46a383e5f0ae9b6d6214\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a97e1705-20b1-4844-8140-1090426c1397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022705bed482a4d46a383e5f0ae9b6d6214\u0022\u003EDAMIEN SMITH (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E How does the Government believe that a regulator can set and enforce regulated prices across thousands of individual grocery products, many of which will be perishable and of varying quality?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022e99173dd23934311bac64652854863fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e99173dd23934311bac64652854863fa\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Smith raised this point on a number of occasions in the last sitting of the committee, and there is no proposed price-setting, price-fixing here. There is a regulatory backstop that will be a last resort; it\u2019s highly unlikely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00227e006c0057014366a08958e45a4dbbcb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e006c0057014366a08958e45a4dbbcb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment to Supplementary Order Paper 353 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 359 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229deebe42e9df445f813ca5a5e8ee6797\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 105\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; New Zealand National 33; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00221677b05c0618422497b1a0777c554f74\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221677b05c0618422497b1a0777c554f74\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 5 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 353 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c918117ad0624cbf91d2d5639b41ed40\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 105\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; New Zealand National 33; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Kerekere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 10\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227be93c41bae94acd8e565983121b55dc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 5 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228ed9c2153f96490db4e0161c76348a15\u0022\u003EPart 6  Amendments to other legislation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4dae4c4015f47cc8a1cb66694aa550d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4dae4c4015f47cc8a1cb66694aa550d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 6. This is the debate on clauses 190A to 204 and Schedule 3, \u201CAmendments to other legislation\u201D. The question is that Part 6 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EThe question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment to Part 6 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 353 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022049601bcf8494fb3b3877903e30f6e6a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Part 6 as amended stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EPart 6 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002252cdd029755b4f1592475b37f7b8f1da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252cdd029755b4f1592475b37f7b8f1da\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Schedule 1 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 353 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022fdd48eb819ad43b48a30b2dc5c2fe09e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fdd48eb819ad43b48a30b2dc5c2fe09e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Schedule 1 as amended stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002240f2cbe334da4cdfa4a162a3daa0a303\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240f2cbe334da4cdfa4a162a3daa0a303\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendment to Schedule 2 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 353 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002208b977b7739f4b72b3f4a48e86ad8907\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208b977b7739f4b72b3f4a48e86ad8907\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Schedule 2 as amended stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u00220c37d34d8915400d958d136b953922a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c37d34d8915400d958d136b953922a4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Schedule 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003ESchedule 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f7515951be6f4cc49156485f07f8d230\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022144e57ba43ac41fdb3ce64dd37e5f9a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022144e57ba43ac41fdb3ce64dd37e5f9a5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to the debate on clauses 1 and 2. Clauses 1 and 2 is the debate on the title and commencement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022479dce518ec94348af8bec19c9477af6\u0022\u003ECharities Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223c6e480006bd473d94ee3d77baf7e614\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000517\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 31 May.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c24d621dc03c4403b59967fb3a457134\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Charities Act 2005 (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5560d578ddf43a4bde9fcc814cf7561\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5560d578ddf43a4bde9fcc814cf7561\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jenny Salesa)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to further consideration of the Charities Amendment Bill. When we were last debating this bill, we were debating Part 1. Part 1 is the debate on clauses 3 to 30 and the Schedule: \u201CAmendments to Charities Act 2005\u201D. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc73e4ddb178410c845cd80324d0cc61\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc73e4ddb178410c845cd80324d0cc61\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just wanting to ask the Minister in the chair about clause 13A and specifically what was envisaged in terms of the information that could be prevented or restricted from being released, just so that there is clarity around what was intended from the inclusion of this clause, please? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003ESo I would like further clarity of that section, and perhaps\u2014to allow the Minister time to consider that, if I can just bring to the committee some of the issues that have been raised in this process and why there is some significant frustration with the charity sector with this legislation. Of course, I do want to put on record that it is National Volunteer Week, and it is predominantly volunteers who are involved with the charitable sector that will be on the receiving end of this somewhat disappointing piece of legislation. And volunteers\u201421 percent of New Zealanders volunteer in some way, shape, or form, and they really add to the richness of the communities that we live in. So I do want to specifically just put on record from Sue Barker Charities Law, who is a specialist in this field, and the view that there is a very large disconnect between how the Department of Internal Affairs views the Charities Act and how the vast bulk of the sector actually views it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThe submissions\u2014and we heard from many organisations\u2014made it very clear that the fundamentals of the Act are not sound, and that the definition of \u201Ccharitable purpose\u201D is not working well, and that was why when the Labour Party announced a first-principles review, or promised it, in 2017\u2014it was welcomed by the sector, and their view was that the first-principles review is very much needed if the intent was to support charities to continue their vital contribution to community wellbeing. The National Party definitely wants to put on record that we want to ensure that charitable organisations are able to focus on their charitable works as opposed to another regulatory burden; an oversight that it is unclear whether it will add any value.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003ESo the question that Sue Barker Charities Law put in her submission, which is perhaps the question I can ask the Minister in the chair, is: how can we determine whether the Act is fit for purpose when we do not have agreement on what that purpose is? And that\u2019s fair to say, so it would be good to have a view from the Minister in the chair about that, as well as my earlier question, very specifically about 13A and about the intention of that particular inclusion: what was envisaged, what problem was going to be solved, and is there any appeal if information should be disclosed that is not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u00226e4437d7361343af9c54738f68e9e8d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e4437d7361343af9c54738f68e9e8d1\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Minister for the Community and Voluntary Sector):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Firstly, I\u2019ll just say very quickly\u2014I totally agree with the member\u2019s sentiment around the amount of valuable work the volunteers do and that it is National Volunteer Week. In fact, it\u2019s over 50 percent of New Zealanders who volunteer, and I\u2019ll just say a very huge thankyou to them all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EThe point that the member raised\u2014or the clarification that was sought\u2014was around clause 13A, which amends section 25 of the Act. That gives the chief executive (CE) discretion to remove information from the register if the CE considers there would be, for example, safety implications therein. So if it is considered to be in the public interest that information is either prevented or restricted, the CE has the ability to do so, and that\u2019s what clause 13A is about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u00224a4c8d83965043738755a99e3202f477\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a4c8d83965043738755a99e3202f477\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like a response to the very clear comments from Sue Barker Charities Law. Of any of the submissions, I think hers was the most substantial\u2014and also the time and energy that went into making recommendations and drafting to assist officials and to assist the Government alternative options. So I would ask the Minister in the chair: how is it that we can determine whether the Act is fit for purpose when there\u2019s no agreement on what that purpose is?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u002269952b0ebb2f4d33bd163dc82a7b9d1a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269952b0ebb2f4d33bd163dc82a7b9d1a\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Minister for the Community and Voluntary Sector):\u003C/span\u003E I have said this previously, as part of this committee of the whole House stage\u2014that we are here to debate clauses of the bill and not to re-litigate the review that was done some years back. I will state that there is considerable support from many within the sector for what we\u2019re trying to do here through this bill, which is to support small charities to do their work\u2014to reduce, for example, the compliance burden\u2014but to strike a balance between that and ensuring the public continues to have trust and confidence in the sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u00222042fc5d8967419bb65c2f9a280bccb4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222042fc5d8967419bb65c2f9a280bccb4\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s not really answering the question, but there we go. I want to now turn to new section 42G inserted by clause 20, which is the \u201CDuty to review governance procedures\u201D. And again, rather than just use my voice, I want to bring some of the submitters\u2014and some of them are well-known organisations and they do exist with lots of volunteers. In terms of the two different statistics that have been quoted in the House, for those who are wondering, the 21 percent is kind of registered, if you like, or quantifiable volunteering, whereas the 50 percent is much broader than that. And that\u2019s why there\u2019s a difference of figures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EOK, coming to Age Concern, for example, their view on the annual review of governance rules and procedures\u2014and this is why I made the comment about none of us really wanting charitable organisations to be bound up with further rules and regulations that prevent their ability to do the job. And several of them really questioned whether or not the annual review of governance procedures was necessary, because it would be onerous and place an additional burden on charities. I know this was amended to at least three years, but there did seem to be in the submissions a view that perhaps these charitable organisations and the governance didn\u2019t really understand what their role was. And I think, with the tone of some of these submissions, it was that they weren\u2019t trusted to govern their organisations well or to know what they needed to do to meet the terms of its rules and purpose of their trust. And I refer in this instance to the Breast Cancer Foundation of New Zealand and whether or not the intention is, as proposed by the Breast Cancer Foundation, to support the development of a best-practice guide that could include a governance framework for charities, as opposed to adding yet another duty or responsibility on to the charitable sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022 data-id=\u002273be9f2a1b0243fc8ef02c36ec765bbe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273be9f2a1b0243fc8ef02c36ec765bbe\u0022\u003EJAN LOGIE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s the struggle of a Green MP to have to juggle between different committees, being here and on Standing Orders. I just want to quickly have an intervention and ask about the appeals rights. Because what we\u2019ve heard is that part of the selling point of this bill is that it enables charities to be able to have an appeal process for decisions of the commission. And yet my understanding, and what came through in submissions, was that actually there have been three previous attempts to prescribe appeal rights. And in every single instance, this Parliament has rejected attempts to prescribe appeal rights. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to quote from the select committee that considered this previously, which noted, \u201CIt should be possible to appeal all decisions of the commission that adversely impact on a particular entity. So, in fact, it is the view of many submitters that the prescription in this bill, while being presented as an extension, is actually a limitation on appeal rights.\u201D And I\u2019d really like to hear the Minister\u2019s response to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002269dfdffa-4227-42b6-875a-fc8033bc25cc\u0022\u003EI understand again that when the commission was disestablished in 2012, the Department of Internal Affairs tried to limit appeal rights and failed at that point in time to do that again, and again in 2016 there was another attempt that this Parliament rejected. And I understand that the feedback from the sector was almost unanimous that all decisions by charity services should continue to be subject to appeal and that comparable regulatory regimes allow an appeal against all decisions. So I would really like to understand how, in the name of building better relationships and trust, this Government would present a bill, and a provision in the bill that\u2019s been rejected by this Parliament three times, that actually limits appeal rights rather than extends them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u00225ae46b12e4ba4019a178c43900f4a3ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ae46b12e4ba4019a178c43900f4a3ee\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E While we wait for the Minister to address the concerns, and I am sorry that my colleague also is waiting for an answer on her questions\u2014the Green Party, the ACT Party, and the National Party have worked closely in the select committee to try and get some improvements on this bill, and we will continue trying. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003ESo I now turn to the Queen Elizabeth the Second National Trust, another favourite community organisation or charitable organisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d940174c5a548209c89e30e03e3238e\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Love those trees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220640f6d8f05d4a9a81021c48d376abd5\u0022\u003ELOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely love those trees, and I love those protected areas and the landowners that then put their land into the Queen Elizabeth the Second National Trust for future generations are incredibly generous in their gift to the nation. So with that generosity, how does the Government repay them? By expecting that they undertake a review of their governance on a regular basis, which, in the words of the Queen Elizabeth the Second National Trust, \u201Ccreate[s] an unnecessarily heavy administrative burden.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, what happens when legislation has changed, the two winners are the lawyers and the accountants\u2014and that\u2019s not to have any negative say about lawyers and accountants; there are sufficient in my extended family to embrace them with loving kindness. But I do think when we are talking about National Volunteer Week and all of the amazing work that our volunteer organisations and our charitable sector do, it is a bit rough to then, in their words, \u201Cto create an unnecessarily heavy administrative burden.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EAnd the other point that they made very carefully, and I\u2019m interested in the Minister\u2019s answer to this, is when there is another legislative framework that governs an organisation such as this one, which legislation takes the priority? Which one is the superior legislation? Because the Queen Elizabeth the Second National Trust say, \u201CA further layer of regulatory requirement has the potential to duplicate or conflict with our existing legislative requirements.\u201D So I\u2019d like the Minister in the chair to answer the question: if there is another piece of legislation that governs the charitable organisation, does that take precedence over the Charities Amendment Bill or not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u002285c26c11a6954033a1de5eaa798a450f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002285c26c11a6954033a1de5eaa798a450f\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Minister for the Community and Voluntary Sector):\u003C/span\u003E There have been a few questions or comments that have been made that I will clarify. Firstly, to the final point made by Louise Upston, the changes that are being made here only pertain as far as the decisions or the issues under the Charities Act. So that\u2019s one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003ESecondly, the member\u2019s question around new section 42G inserted by clause 20 and the requirement: there was, of course, an amendment that was made from annual to at least within a three-year window. And I think the member did acknowledge that that was a select committee recommendation and a change that we made subsequently. It basically goes to the point that I made already in this Chamber, which is around the need to ensure that the public continue to have trust and confidence in the sector. Part of that is also supporting organisations, particularly small charities, in terms of continuing with their good governance journey and improving capability there. And so new section 42G creates a duty for the charitable entity to review its governance procedure at least every three years. I don\u2019t consider that that will be particularly onerous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EWhen conducting that review, the entity must consider whether its governance procedures are fit for purpose. So it\u2019s really about the fact that good governance in the charitable sector is important, as I\u2019ve mentioned, in terms of the public interest in charities and public accountability as well. Governance capability, we know\u2014and I know, coming from the sector myself, that sometimes it can be limited, particularly with small volunteer-run charities. And that\u2019s why the change was made to at least within a three-year window. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EFinally, on the point made by the member Jan Logie around appeals, we have expanded the decisions that can be appealed. Previously it was\u2014under the current legislation, it\u2019s decisions made by the Charities Registration Board. That has now been expanded to include some decisions made by the chief executive as well. It would not be efficient to allow all decisions to be appealed, because charity services, for example, will need some decisions to enable them to carry out their compliance and enforcement function, particularly when they need to commence an investigation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u0022f549ddfd9f1c4a719a9643cb08b6a2e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f549ddfd9f1c4a719a9643cb08b6a2e0\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s my first opportunity to take part, and I would signal that I haven\u2019t been part of the select committee process. But, having actually looked at the bill, I have a question, starting from new section 12A, inserted by clause 6 in Part 1, where the bill says, \u201CChief executive to consult on significant guidelines or recommendations\u201D. In the amended version, I\u2019m actually wanting to find out from the Minister whether \u201CThe chief executive must consult persons or representatives of persons that the chief executive considers reasonable to consult\u201D\u2014how different that will actually impact on the charities, compared to the previous version, where it says, \u201CThe chief executive must consult persons or organisation that the chief executive considers to be representative of the interests of charitable entities\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThe reason I ask that is, when a chief executive of a charitable trust will be working to make sure that the work that they deliver to the entity is of benefit to the charitable trust, they would consult people who would actually help the chief executive. But I\u2019m trying to find out who this person may be that the Minister thinks is actually reasonable for the chief executive to consult. Could it be the cleaner? Could it be the priest at the local church? Could it be the cab driver or any other person that could potentially benefit the charitable trust? I would have hoped that the person that the chief executive consults is somebody that has expertise, who would actually benefit the charitable activity of that charity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u00225c87de20dc77468d980912a22646a08d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c87de20dc77468d980912a22646a08d\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It is somewhat frustrating not to have an answer to that question that was asked by my colleague Melissa Lee. So we will keep going. I want to ask the question of the Minister, still on this vein of what was an annual, now three-yearly, review of governance procedures, to understand, if she sees the intended purpose of the bill or objective of the bill being to remove unnecessary red tape for charities, why then, on the other hand, additional red tape for charities is introduced by this legislation; and whether or not\u2014I think there are 114,000 registered charities\u2014the one-size-fits-all, prescriptive approach that has been taken by this legislation actually enables or supports charitable activity or not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5a5cf6973444729bb611c5fbc02a630\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5a5cf6973444729bb611c5fbc02a630\u0022\u003ETAMA POTAKA (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, for giving me this call. I spent a bit of time with the Waikato-Tainui charitable cobweb, or charity web, for many years, so it was pleasing to see their submission. One of the points that they raised was why this bill has not addressed the issue of charities being able to advocate for their charitable purpose without fear of losing their charitable status\u2014for example, Waikato-Tainui advocating for the resolution of outstanding claims and Treaty claims and Treaty redress. So that\u2019s a specific question I\u2019d like to ask the Minister. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u00222a83a63d049948dcb9314c054a33e578\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a83a63d049948dcb9314c054a33e578\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Minister for the Community and Voluntary Sector):\u003C/span\u003E On new section 12A, inserted by clause 6, and the point around consultation that Melissa Lee raised, it\u2019s pretty obvious that consultation should be driven by those who will be impacted by the guidelines, and that\u2019s what the chief executive will do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00220b2ee7d332b549a58396981bc9c3e2e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b2ee7d332b549a58396981bc9c3e2e9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Louise Upston. If members want to take a call\u2014I\u2019m just on the brink of shutting down the debate and moving on. So if members want to call\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c4f83f0fd7949d1977907a9b0dea496\u0022\u003EHon Louise Upston\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re just waiting patiently in the expectation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b0ff6847137467facc8504ec0055c52\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, no, we don\u2019t argue. The Hon Louise Upston. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022 data-id=\u0022f29c18804f6f4d2a906aae527bbe8d43\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f29c18804f6f4d2a906aae527bbe8d43\u0022\u003EMATT DOOCEY (National\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Chair. The committee of the whole House, with the new Standing Orders, was to allow for a conversation between the Minister and the member. I think when the Opposition members are making pithy questions to engage that discussion and the Minister doesn\u2019t stand up, that creates a silence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00225fb04d575b4347488945fdc4d908d064\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225fb04d575b4347488945fdc4d908d064\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, thank you. I get the gist of what the member is trying to say, or wanting to say. It is indeed the case that the committees are now being run as more of an inquisitorial forwards and backwards Q and A. It is, however, entirely up to the Minister in the chair as to when and whether they stand to answer a question, and that is my problem: that it is the will of the House whether the debate keeps going, but into a silence I can only conclude that the House is finished, and that is why I am trying to suggest to members that the most helpful\u2014if members still have questions, don\u2019t wait; go ahead and bid. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022eeaac4bede124b7db04188c2336f19d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eeaac4bede124b7db04188c2336f19d6\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. So I think instead, I\u2019ll just make a speech, because that might be more useful, if the Minister is not going to answer the questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EI do think, because of the timing\u2014and I don\u2019t know if it was by accident or deliberate that the committee of the whole House stage is being debated in National Volunteer Week. I went and met with a number of volunteer organisations yesterday, and let me see if I can name them. Project Tongariro, Greening Taup\u014D, Red Cross, St John\u2019s, the Tokoroa Fire Brigade, trustees from a couple of my local schools, Breast Cancer Awareness, Bellyful, Plunket, assistance dogs, hearing disability dogs\u2014who also represent the only dogs assisting in emergency management scenarios\u2014these are organisations that are wide and varied in the service they provide to our community. There are also the hospice and Care NZ, which is predominantly a cat rescue. Those two alone, the hospice and Care, in Taup\u014D, have 370 volunteers\u2014370 volunteers\u2014whose time and energy that I would like to see the Government support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t want the hospice shop in Taup\u014D to be worried about raising another $20,000 to pay an accountant to ensure that their governance\u2014let me get the words\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e10b6684f6b4e5ba4120305bdc011da\u0022\u003ETama Potaka\u003C/span\u003E: Sausage sizzles for accountants. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a785ea261f94bcca854c2c45ce64b4a\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely! That\u2019s a great expression\u2014\u201Csausage sizzles for accountants\u201D\u2014because what is pretty clear from the submitters, which is why I have consistently gone back to put the voice of the submitters in this committee of the whole House stage, is that they\u2019re quite bewildered in terms of whether or not the Government values their work in terms of defining the problem. Originally, the problem was that the charities bill wasn\u2019t fit for purpose, and that\u2019s why there was a first-principles review that the Labour Party had promised in their election in 2017. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003ESo then the submitters are somewhat puzzled by what the problem is now, because if the bill is fit for purpose, why would you then just lay on more red tape for charities and treat them all as one size and type, knowing that some are incredibly complex and others are not? Others have governing legislation\u2014like, as I mentioned before, the Queen Elizabeth the Second National Trust\u2014and others don\u2019t. Waikato-Tainui is a very wideranging charitable organisation who do phenomenal work in the community, and it might actually be that they\u2019ve got accountants that can support their work, but I\u2019d be very surprised if some of the smaller charities do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003ESo the Government wants those organisations to raise money through sausage sizzles to pay for that, and that\u2019s why I\u2019m going to ask another question. Is that the intention, that funding that has been raised for charitable purposes will now be spent on accountants and lawyers to ensure that the governance review that is required on a three-yearly basis\u2014and I\u2019d like to know if there\u2019s been an estimate of what that will cost the charitable organisations. Yes, I accept that in the select committee it was changed to push it to three years, but what is the estimated cost, Minister, of the duty to review governance procedures every three years for every charitable entity? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4ff1e50e051476c93b63c519cd796b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4ff1e50e051476c93b63c519cd796b9\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Minister for the Community and Voluntary Sector):\u003C/span\u003E I find it incredibly interesting that that member waxes lyrical about the cost that is imposed on charities when it was that member\u2019s party in Government that brought in a change in 2015 that meant that very small charities had to hire accountants because they then suddenly needed to report against the External Reporting Board standard. That is one of the changes that we are proposing through this bill because so many small charities were unable to afford that cost. So it\u2019s a little bit rich, coming from that member. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003ESo what are the changes, the member asks\u2014are we just increasing red tape through this bill? No. So small charities will have their reporting requirements reduced if they fit into specific criteria\u2014which is very small charities\u2014such that they just provide a narrative report and don\u2019t have to report against an onerous standard. That is one of the changes that will be made, which has gone down very well, might I add, with small charities. That\u2019s one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003ESecondly, the rules document in new section 42G, inserted by clause 20\u2014again, I\u2019ve already addressed this issue. It\u2019s not a compliance burden. Charitable organisations already have a rules document. This is a point I\u2019ll make because this is an issue that\u2019s been brought up again and again, and I suspect there\u2019s a lack of clarity around the fact that the current Act already requires charities to have a rules document. The only change here is the fact that many have rules documents that are out of date because there hasn\u2019t been a requirement to keep them updated. This goes towards driving better governance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EAll this bill does is to ensure that there is a requirement that regularly, charities will continue to comply with what they\u2019re meant to be doing, and it gives them an opportunity to be able to do so. Initially, we thought that perhaps annually would be a good fit, along with reporting requirements, but given the submissions to the select committee, we decided that perhaps we\u2019ll change that to a three-yearly requirement, so there\u2019s a threeyear window for charities to be able to do that within. It\u2019s already there, so there shouldn\u2019t be an additional cost at all or an increase in compliance burden there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EIn terms of advocacy, the point that was raised about charitable organisations being able to be involved in advocacy\u2014now, that is out of scope of the bill. But what I will say is that there have been rulings through the Supreme Court on that. Family First comes to mind in terms of the ruling around advocacy, and I\u2019ll leave that there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EI will also address, for the final time, the issue around first principles, because that has come up time and again by members from the Opposition. That is out of scope for this bill. We are here to discuss the clauses that are in this legislation, and not re-litigate a review that took place in 2019 where the consensus then was that the foundations of the legislation were sound, and what we would do was to make tangible changes that would actually benefit the charitable sector while also striking a balance to ensure that the public have trust and confidence in the sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00226f947c7e19d64470b42a78499a487b7a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f947c7e19d64470b42a78499a487b7a\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I\u2019m going to acknowledge my colleague Jan Logie has been the one doing the brunt of the work on this bill; I\u2019m going to do my best to channel her in my contribution and questions. So just touching on new section 42G, inserted by clause 20, regarding the \u201CDuty to review governance procedures\u201D, and following the Minister\u2019s comments, we\u2019re interested in getting a clearer understanding on how does the Minister expect that the charities will be able to demonstrate these reviews have been met when it comes to governance. And then also getting a better understanding of what does the Minister expect to happen if these duties are not fulfilled and are breached. Those two things, I guess, are things that have been fed to me in terms of concerns that exist, and are priorities. So if there\u2019s any comments from the Minister around this that would be helpful, thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u0022e46c1a561328489ea74cf1ef1986f8c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e46c1a561328489ea74cf1ef1986f8c1\u0022\u003ETAMA POTAKA (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E One of the more exciting dynamics of my last three months here in Parliament is listening to all the impressive expectations in legislation\u2014new legislation around Treaty compliance and M\u0101ori compliance. And what I thought to ask the Minister was what specific assessment has the Government done to quantify the extra costs and/or voluntary hours for the many M\u0101ori organisations who are going to have to comply for this new regime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022991e4076c7404de9b1ec991ac2013185\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022991e4076c7404de9b1ec991ac2013185\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I would like to continue along that vein, because we all know in this House the benefits that voluntary organisations provide to our communities. So my question is following up on my colleague Tama Potaka and my earlier question: what is the anticipated cost to each charity of these changes? And if the cost per charity hasn\u2019t been worked out, or is not provided today, what is the cost for the duty to review the governance procedures? And, again, bringing the words of the submitters\u2014so when the Minister, quite disparagingly, commented about the Opposition\u2019s contributions, I would just remind the Minister that I am reading from submitters\u2019 concerns, and it is the submitters who were concerned about the lack of the first-principles review. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThis one, though\u2014coming back to what the costs are, because there is a real interest in what those costs are\u2014from Community Housing Aotearoa is very similar to the earlier one which, in terms of the review of procedures, says: \u201CRather than regulate,\u201D wouldn\u2019t it be more beneficial to have \u201Can educational approach\u201D, or a best-practices approach? Because, as this organisation identifies, \u201CIt is already very challenging and timeconsuming to meet the present and ongoing requirements of many legislative reforms. Legislating to enforce this review is excessive.\u201D So those are the words of Community Housing Aotearoa; they are not my words. I am speaking them on their behalf because it is really important that submitters know that their submissions are taken seriously, and although they may not have been in the select committee process, the committee of the whole House is another opportunity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003ESo I am asking the Minister for the costs, because, obviously, a cost-benefit analysis has been undertaken otherwise this wouldn\u2019t have got through the gate to have even been put before the House. So what are the costs anticipated, on average, for a charity? And if that answer isn\u2019t forthcoming then at least what is the estimated cost to review the governance procedures? And is there a post-implementation review of these costs to identify whether or not they line up with what was anticipated in the original cost-benefit analysis? And if those costs are seen to be excessive, then with any contract the Government has with a charitable organisation, will they cover those costs? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u00227d9f634c5d7e4ef380f8a0ed85d4b441\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d9f634c5d7e4ef380f8a0ed85d4b441\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Associate Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E I will say firstly that I do take submitters\u2019 views into consideration, and seriously. I will also say that there are over 100,000 charities in New Zealand, and 28,000 registered charities as well. To the question around cost as a result of clause 20 that inserts new section 42G, I have already addressed this today in the House. I will say again, for the member\u2019s benefit, that there is no anticipated additional cost as a result of this, because the rules document already exists and charitable organisations already have to meet annually and this is not expected to be onerous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003ETo the point that was made, or the question that was raised earlier in terms of the penalty if organisations don\u2019t comply, I would expect the charities services would work from an educational point of view with charities who require that, and that is something they already do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u00229829c45666ab4223bb25327226ecbc49\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229829c45666ab4223bb25327226ecbc49\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d like to thank the Minister for her answers, and I hope that she will bear with me, considering the fact that I\u2019ve actually initially said, right at the beginning, that I wasn\u2019t part of the select committee and so I\u2019m going with it quite fresh.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EThe thing that really intrigues me, and the Minister actually said we\u2019re not re-litigating the review, but I just wanted to ask the Minister\u2019s opinion: considering the fact that the review was led by the Department of Internal Affairs (DIA)\u2014so, effectively, the review was reviewing itself\u2014when this legislation is looking to create transparency in the charitable sector, is it right that this legislation, this work, is actually based on a review that was done by DIA on its own self, instead of an independent review? Does that actually speak to transparency that this Government is actually talking about?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019d like to seek the Minister\u2019s opinion on that, considering the fact that there is actually a huge charitable sector, and my colleague Louise Upston actually listed some of them. But I know that even within the ethnic communities, there are many charitable organisations, too, who do amazing work, particularly during the COVID era, where they were the ones who were providing people faced with difficulties because they couldn\u2019t actually get to do grocery shopping or whatever; they were actually feeding the communities and providing the lifeline that they actually required.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019d like to ask the Minister: could she possibly answer whether this actually provides the transparency, especially when the review was done by DIA on itself?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f741fd0492d44b47a908d26324440c8b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 1, set out on Supplementary Order Paper 357, and tabled amendment to clause 15, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 62\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c450a25ebcc94998ac7c573be16817ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c450a25ebcc94998ac7c573be16817ac\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Simon O\u2019Connor\u2019s tabled amendment to Part\u00A01 is out of order as being outside the scope of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222e6fd5edefca4f8f9a541b5e81d08072\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 62\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b3dc164b3b50407a80e5e480f607d023\u0022\u003EPart 2  Consequential amendments to other Acts\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002229af7118ed574212a435c5b5dfc44744\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002229af7118ed574212a435c5b5dfc44744\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to the debate on Part\u00A02. But before I get into this part, I just want to remind the committee and all of those in the committee that the question of relevance in the debate is determined by the Speaker. So relevance is determined in a committee stage by\u2014I will always accept matters that relate to the substance of the bill. If it is a particularly broad-ranging bill and more general in nature, then so is the committee stage debate\u2014just bringing in other aspects which are relevant. It doesn\u2019t mean that the debate will go off on topic. It always has to relate to the bill. Members are used to me bringing them back, but I just want to make it clear that the sole judge of relevance belongs with the Speaker, whoever it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ESo members, again, we come now to the debate on Part 2. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022154f5c1c859e4a85a63c9abbd83e1fa2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022154f5c1c859e4a85a63c9abbd83e1fa2\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for that clarification; that is helpful. So Part 2, I want to ask some questions specifically around the appeals process. As I\u2019ve mentioned in the earlier part, I think this is the bit that concerns the lawyers. I don\u2019t know the last time you got a lawyer\u2019s bill\u2014there\u2019s usually a few fat zeros on the end. So let\u2019s climb into appeals. I want to specifically ask questions\u2014so some of the submitters were happy with the proposal for charities to be able to go to the Taxation Review Authority, but the piece that I want to specifically ask about is the evidence about charities being litigious. I am specifically referring to the Community Networks Aotearoa submission here. There was a statement that the Charities Services\u2014which, for those just tuning in, is part of the Department of Internal Affairs\u2014was concerned about many charities being litigious. And I would like the Minister to address, where is the evidence for that and what is the number of cases that have been taken since the charities commission was first set up? Are there more; are there less? What is the evidence to support that statement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EAnd the comment also about a fair appeals process being likely to reduce costs due to better structural accountability and therefore trust. And there were quite lengthy discussions in the select committee around the whole right of appeal, so I\u2019d like to start with that first piece around what is the evidence that many charities are litigious. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u0022c78b20268b304f9a803a3dacc9019d18\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c78b20268b304f9a803a3dacc9019d18\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much. I\u2019d like to ask the Minister in relation to new Part 2A, section 58E, in relation to the \u201CGrounds of appeal and burden of proof\u201D. It talks about \u201C(1) In an appeal,\u2014(a) the appellant is limited to the grounds stated in the notice of appeal; and (aa) the respondent is limited to the grounds stated in the decision appealed against;\u201D. And that looks perfectly reasonable, that you can only talk about or discuss and debate a specific area where the application is actually made. But in relation to section 58E(2), it says \u201CDespite subsection (1), the Authority may, either on the application of the appellant or of its own motion, amend the grounds stated in the notice of appeal.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EI\u2019m not a lawyer; I don\u2019t have a law degree. Maybe the Minister could potentially explain to me why I read into this that it is, in fact, the authority that could potentially shift the goalpost, making it difficult. It\u2019s like changing the rules. It certainly reads that way. So perhaps the Minister could actually explain that to me. So what does that actually mean in practice, that an appellant actually makes notice of an appeal and they have a rule as to what they may discuss and actually apply to the authority to discuss\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229aad03d7b3084528b8c85426998289a7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! As the member is debating, she\u2019s referring to matters in Part 1. Could the member now move on to Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c2225bda9c0410789ef49df4b15efff\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s 2A, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f04386562bc46799f6a30f5c3f78095\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: So, I\u2019m advised that Part 2A is inserted into the principal Act, which is in Part 1 of that Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba63deed8cc24e528ceee207528e356f\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Chair. Obviously, I read that wrong. If that\u2019s the case, does that mean that the Minister doesn\u2019t have to actually answer the question that I just gave her?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022059023ff42f149b5bc386837521a4b6d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: So Part 2, being the consequential amendments to the Taxation Review Authorities Act\u2014so that\u2019s Part 2 of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u00229d0e7af223bb4c99b24abe72df6c8984\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d0e7af223bb4c99b24abe72df6c8984\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E Speaking to questions around the Taxation Review Authority, I come back to my comment earlier about what costs are involved for charities, because I think it is really critical that we don\u2019t, through unintended consequences, lay more costs on to charitable organisations. So I would appreciate if the Minister could answer a question, specifically in Part 2, around the Taxation Review Authority and the changes in this part as to what costs may fall on charitable organisations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf284d76ef47437583d6fcd246aa98c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf284d76ef47437583d6fcd246aa98c5\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Minister for the Community and Voluntary Sector):\u003C/span\u003E Part 2 makes amendments to the Taxation Review Authorities Act 1994. It is actually quite specific. It\u2019s just an amendment to the legislation to allow cases under the Charities Act to be heard. Very quickly what I will say in terms of cost is that the cost currently under the status quo is onerous, can be onerous for many charities, particularly smaller charities because the only record they have is to take their appeals to the High Court. What this change does is add another level of appeal which then means the charities can go to the Taxation Review Authority. It is much cheaper for charities to do that because they can then represent themselves, as opposed to having to hire a lawyer to go before the High Court. So the costs will be reduced, and that\u2019s actually the reason that we\u2019re doing this. It also expands justice to a wider cross-section of charities, particularly smaller ones.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022f09b1167cde440e991fd764bb45f55d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f09b1167cde440e991fd764bb45f55d9\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to come back to the Sue Barker Charities Law submissions and just tease further out this issue of whether or not the appeal should be to the Taxation Review Authority or the High Court, and whether or not proposed new section 58X, in new Part 2A, would allow the Taxation Review Authority to refer a case to the High Court on a question of law or on whether the appeal should be heard by the High Court in the first instance. And does that mean\u2014and this is a question I would like answered, please\u2014that, potentially, a charity is having to pursue action in two different courts concurrently, which of course would add to the costs. And I\u2019m specifically referring to a specialist in charities law who was asking the question as to whether or not two proceedings would be required to be filed in two different courts, so the judicial review proceedings in the High Court, and appealing the proceedings in the Taxation Review Authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003ESo I would appreciate clarification of that. If that is the case, then clearly that would work against the stated objective of the Charities Amendment Bill\u2014which is to improve access to justice\u2014by limiting choices and adding cost and complexity into the appeal process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd013c2668c14ff1b20d379eb01fbae1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd013c2668c14ff1b20d379eb01fbae1\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u00224e6362284d0944fab0e5789caf7a312e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e6362284d0944fab0e5789caf7a312e\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I do think this particular issue is an important one. The last thing any of us would want to do\u2014well, I\u2019m making a fairly general assumption there\u2014particularly in National Volunteer Week would be to make it even more onerous. So the specific question, again, is: is it intended that charities would have to file proceedings in two different courts concurrently? Because if appeals are restricted to the Taxation Review Authority (TRA), it actually restricts the charities\u2019 ability to access the highest court in the land, and I wondered if that was the intention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThe subsequent comment here is, I think, an important one, and it\u2019s asking the question about whether or not, in drafting this part, charities aren\u2019t trusted to make the decision for themselves as to whether they commence proceedings in the High Court or in the TRA.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u00224e3bc7f3631d40a3b3bcaac2ec49822a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e3bc7f3631d40a3b3bcaac2ec49822a\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Minister for the Community and Voluntary Sector):\u003C/span\u003E I will say, once again, as I said before in response to the member\u2019s question, that Part 2 is very narrow. It actually just makes an amendment to the Taxation Review Authorities Act 1994 to allow the Taxation Review Authority to hear cases under the Charities Act. So that\u2019s literally all this part does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EBut to the member\u2019s question around cost, I\u2019ll say that High Court appeals generally cost around $1,200, and appeals to the Taxation Review Authority around $500, so it is much cheaper for charities, and the evidentiary threshold is lower.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EIn terms of the question that the member asked, there have only been 25 appeals since the Charities Act came into force, and out of that, only two have had a judicial review, so it\u2019s very uncommon to have both.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022dfc8a3ef1d8543c09725a4046db21393\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dfc8a3ef1d8543c09725a4046db21393\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (National\u2014Taup\u014D):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I do think it is important, though, to clarify whether or not the suggestion that I have outlined, in terms of parallel proceedings in two different courts, can actually happen, as with this change to the Taxation Review Authority. If the Minister\u2019s shaking her head and saying no, I think it would be great for that to be clarified for the record, because, as we know, what happens is when there are issues down the track, organisations or lawyers actually look back at the Hansard to determine what Parliament\u2019s intention was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u0022188081ee652e46f89e850d01848f8303\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022188081ee652e46f89e850d01848f8303\u0022\u003ETAMA POTAKA (National\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, now as a reformed lawyer\u2014reform lawyer\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022175e4c5d3335405b87b7ba7b19eb4207\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! You\u2019re never reformed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e58dbc73d2c1401c811fbc453538b7b1\u0022\u003ETAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and just checking through the materials in Part 2, the Taxation Review Authority, there was a comment made by Te Whakakitenga o Waikato Incorporated Society\u2014which is the incorporated society for the whole Waikato-Tainui charity web\u2014around the registration board, but the Taxation Review Authority requiring a bit of investment of resource and Government funding to fulfil the new roles under this bill. So there were two questions that emerged out of that for me. One of them was: has there been an assessment of the additional funding that\u2019s going to be required to skill these people up? And, particularly in the case of Waikato-Tainui, the observation that there\u2019s been a dearth of legal training around tikanga M\u0101ori and other M\u0101ori dynamics that associate with thousands of M\u0101ori charities out there\u2014whether or not there\u2019s been consideration given for the Taxation Review Authority to be experienced or upskilled or acknowledged in that space. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u00227665eba072de438b8a07785e4ba971ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227665eba072de438b8a07785e4ba971ba\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002220ee45aa71db4b54ae6c7083bdc96d1c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 62\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000606\u0022\u003ESchedule agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220dfff5425e9b4a1186d19aa92e2cc9b3\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022aa7b19019a0c4546a498ca94f4d2e5f8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 62\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00220d7050898d174fb4adccd2a748b0357f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d7050898d174fb4adccd2a748b0357f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to clause 2, set out on Supplementary Order Papers 357 and 362, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022194cb3d9734e41ab8eb6fe87a2fbeda2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 62\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022665ced1765784f428ab76d2bed1bb5b6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 62\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000609\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022750058cdd84f484dbe6d68514f63a8d7\u0022\u003EWorker Protection (Migrant and Other Employees) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228abcef4ef6e74ba5b708f53c0037fcfc\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227a761dd26012465bb7846c2b11aa12e2\u0022\u003EParts 1 to 3, Schedules 1 to 3, and clauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002297b15050d1b64da8addcf3bc8cef83d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002297b15050d1b64da8addcf3bc8cef83d4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to the Worker Protection (Migrant and Other Employees) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u0022cad70854d77b4b27a3a0a0be6eb22331\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cad70854d77b4b27a3a0a0be6eb22331\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Chair. I seek leave for all provisions to be taken as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022084efc8611904306a5a1cd7c20b65d0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022084efc8611904306a5a1cd7c20b65d0d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that course of action. Is there any objection? There is none. The question is that Parts 1 to 3, Schedules 1 to 3, and clauses 1 and 2 stand part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u002284656ce601424d579369abdd244f19ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284656ce601424d579369abdd244f19ec\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d like to start down the back end of the bill, with the infringement offences and the publication of names and information in respect of immigration offences. I\u2019d like to ask the Minister, in relation to new section 383A(1), inserted by clause 10: \u201Cthe chief executive may, in order to promote the [objectives] of this Act, publish the information specified in subsection (2)\u201D. My first question is to the Minister, if she is able to let us know under what circumstances the chief executive may or may not do this? What is the framework that they\u2019ll be working to as to when they would make a decision to publish and when they wouldn\u2019t?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u002285dfd573074e490da599413e1a446076\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002285dfd573074e490da599413e1a446076\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Associate Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to begin with some introductory remarks to this bill, and it\u2019s great to be here at the committee stage of the Worker Protection (Migrant and Other Employees) Bill. I know that the second reading of this bill provided for a fair bit of robust debate that canvassed the general principles of the bill and allowed members to describe, in general terms, their views about the bill. I just also want to thank the select committee for their consideration of the bill, and submitters who took their time to provide their views as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EI also want to introduce a Supplementary Order Paper that has been tabled. It makes two small but important amendments to the bill. Both changes relate to the document production power\u2014that\u2019s clause 4 in the bill. The first change confirms the narrow scope of the document production power\u2014I know there was a fair bit of debate about this at select committee as well\u2014and the change there is that it can only be used to require documents relating to the remuneration and employment conditions of migrant workers whose visas an employer has supported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EThe second change ensures that information obtained can\u2019t be used to the detriment of migrant workers in an immigration context. These changes, I believe, strengthen the intent of the document production power to ensure, really, the compliance of employers who support a migrant\u2019s visa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EI do also just want to take a moment to acknowledge the member Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March from the Green Party. It was his suggestion, in a conversation with me, to strengthen the document production power to the benefit of migrant workers that has really led to us teasing out and introducing this amendment as well. So can I just thank all members for their continued work and advocacy on behalf of migrant workers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4f3f2913a7e4369a91dd14d09dc0ab3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4f3f2913a7e4369a91dd14d09dc0ab3\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I will repeat my question. In relation to new section 383A, inserted by clause 10, \u201CPublication of names and information in respect of immigration offences\u201D, \u201C(1) The chief executive may, in order to promote the objects\u201D\u2014I think it\u2019s supposed to say \u201Cobjectives\u201D\u2014\u201Cof this Act, publish the information specified in subsection (2)\u201D. So my question to the Minister is: what is the framework that the chief executive will be working to, and in what circumstances may they, or may they not, publish this information? I guess the question to the Minister is: is there a seriousness angle to this? Is there some sort of scope as to when they would and wouldn\u2019t? Are there any guidelines? And if she could give some examples of potentially in what cases the chief executive may or may not do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EMy second question is in relation to that same new section 383A: where would this be published? The first question is: they may publish it, but under what circumstances would they or wouldn\u2019t they, and what guidelines are there? And, secondly, where would they publish it? And my third question, keeping with new section 383A: there is a list of things under new section 383A that the chief executive will do when they publish it. This is under subsection (2). The information that may be published is the following: the name of the employer, the employer\u2019s trading name, and a few other things. One of the things that\u2019s missing from there, and I\u2019m wondering if it\u2019s done on purpose\u2014and if it is, why that is\u2014is a description of the infringement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThere are three types of things you might be pulled up on under replacement section 359A(1) inserted by clause 7. The employer \u201Cmust not (a) allow a person who is not entitled under this Act to work in [their employment]\u201D. Secondly, they must work in a manner that\u2019s consistent with their visa\u2014that\u2019s the second type of infringement. And then the third type is failure to produce the documents. So, in new section 383A(2), there is no requirement in there, as far as I can tell, to explain what type of offence the infringement is. So I\u2019m just wanting to know from the Minister if that was an oversight or why that has been omitted, because, at the moment, you can have your name published to say, \u201CYou are an employer, here\u2019s your name, you\u2019ve been issued with an infringement notice\u201D, but it may well be that you just took 11 days rather than 10, or it could be that you allowed someone to work for you who wasn\u2019t supposed to be working for you. They\u2019re quite different offences under the infringement offence, but that detail is not required to be published. So I\u2019m just wondering why that is. So there are those three questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EI\u2019m going to stay on new section 383A because, if I feel like, if I keep going, the Minister won\u2019t potentially hear what I have to say on the next part of the bill. So, in summary of new section 383A, we\u2019ve got three questions: where would they publish the data? Under what circumstances would they publish the data? Because the word \u201Cmay\u201D has been included in the bill. And I\u2019d like to know under what circumstances\u2014if there is a severity. And I elaborate on this point because, as with my earlier point, there are different offences that you can do to get an infringement notice. I\u2019m interested in whether or not the chief executive may choose to publish some and not others, depending on the seriousness of those offences. That was the second question. And then the third one: the description of the infringement isn\u2019t required to be published, and they are quite different offences. So I\u2019m keen to know whether that\u2019s been left out on purpose. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u0022c36408ef60f540c78a9cebf87bd4ef38\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c36408ef60f540c78a9cebf87bd4ef38\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Associate Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E New section 383A, inserted by clause 10, that the member Erica Stanford has mentioned, will, basically, enable the chief executive to publish the names, as mentioned, and certain other details of employers who are convicted of offences against the Act or issued with infringement notices in respect of the specific infringement notices in this Act. The whole point of this is really to ensure that we align the frameworks between the Immigration Act and the Employment Relations Act. The point is not to name the conviction or the infringement, but the point is actually the consequences of that and to be able to see that. That is what this particular section allows for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022b54f1ba9f08d460d88e11991a1b22541\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b54f1ba9f08d460d88e11991a1b22541\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Well, that leaves my first two questions. The very first question I asked was around \u201Cthe chief executive may\u201D, and I would like to know under what circumstances the chief executive may or may not. So when he\u2019s deciding\u2014or she, whoever it is\u2014to publish the fact that there has been an infringement notice that has been produced to an offender, under what circumstance would the chief executive make that decision whether or not they would publish or not? Is it to do with the seriousness of the offending? What\u2019s it to do with? The word \u201Cmay\u201D is, obviously, giving him\u2014or her\u2014some leeway, and I just wanted to know what that leeway was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022 data-id=\u0022b03a5c3dda0c487895ad0b48707cbb72\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b03a5c3dda0c487895ad0b48707cbb72\u0022\u003EDr JAMES McDOWALL (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d just like to talk very briefly about Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 360 that the Government has put forward. I appreciate that this SOP seeks to address one of our concerns with this bill, and, obviously, a great deal of inspiration for that SOP came from my colleague in the Green Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003ESo regarding this, it says a new subsection is inserted to ensure that information obtained from an employer under this section cannot be used by the immigration officer or the department to take \u201Cadverse action\u201D. So my first question is just around that concept: to take adverse action as opposed to just \u201Caction\u201D. I wonder if that\u2019s potentially open to misinterpretation, where an immigration officer may say, \u201CWell, no, I swear, when I was looking at this information, I decided to take action. I didn\u2019t think it would have negative consequences.\u201D Therefore, it\u2019s some sort of loophole. So is that something that the Minister would like to comment on? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003EAnd just lastly, despite this added safeguard, covered by this SOP, given action will be, nevertheless, taken against the employer\u2014it clearly spells out that that can happen\u2014how can we be then certain that there won\u2019t be unavoidable consequences against the employee regardless? Because, you know, immigration officers and compliance officers are humans, after all. It\u2019s not like they can forget that they saw something, and it might motivate them to actually investigate somebody directly. So I guess what I\u2019m saying is I\u2019m worried that this SOP in this bill is missing some sort of safeguard to ensure that that doesn\u2019t happen, to ensure that the intent of this SOP actually comes into fruition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d556148eb3584ac6a23bff0fa4ac75f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d556148eb3584ac6a23bff0fa4ac75f2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for me to leave the Chair for the dinner break, and the House will resume at 7:30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002233162e9c9c3e4767a40d9d006b0de92d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002233162e9c9c3e4767a40d9d006b0de92d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u00222cabbd5c656a46188615df309ff7fc1c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222cabbd5c656a46188615df309ff7fc1c\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Associate Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019ll just respond to a couple of comments and questions that were raised before the dinner break. There was a question about why it\u2019s \u201Cmay\u201D in new section 383A, inserted by clause 10\u2014why the chief executive may publish the names in the names on a stand-down list\u2014and it\u2019s really to give the chief executive discretion on a case by case basis to publish or not publish. I mean, essentially, if there is a conviction or an infringement offence issued, then it gives the chief executive authority to publish names on a stand-down list. That is the point of that particular section, but it is also to acknowledge that there could be a requirement to do that on a case by case basis so that there aren\u2019t any inadvertent issues that come out of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EThe other question was around the wording that was used in the Supplementary Order Paper around \u201Cadverse action\u201D rather than just \u201Cany action\u201D. The point of that is to prevent anything bad happening to migrants if information is disclosed inadvertently but not to prevent immigration officers from extending support to them if required. For example, if they do require a Migrant Exploitation Protection Work Visa, then if the wording was \u201Cany action\u201D, it would preclude immigration officers from being able to offer that support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022 data-id=\u00221d286e60c69d437f926a36e0766b5233\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d286e60c69d437f926a36e0766b5233\u0022\u003EDr JAMES McDOWALL (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, and I appreciate the Minister\u2019s response to that. I guess I\u2019ll add that one of the reasons for looking into this and questioning this is that intentions in the immigration space often don\u2019t quite play out in reality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003EImmigration officers are well known, from time to time, to get a bit carried away, and I think a good example of this, a good issue to raise, is that I\u2019m sure we all remember back in August 2021, the Government\u2014and we joined in on that\u2014apologised for the Dawn Raids. Now, in that time since that apology, there have been 29 dawn raids, and it\u2019s also important to note that there has not been a single application to the national manager of compliance declined for one of those out-of-hours compliance visits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003ESo the Government will say one thing; will claim one thing\u2014and Parliament as a whole, in this case\u2014that certain things in immigration are unacceptable. What I was referring to before is the Supplementary Order Paper\u2014the law\u2014may say one thing, but actually what immigration officers do may differ. The Government says one thing; Immigration New Zealand could, in theory, do the opposite. So just like with the Dawn Raids, what\u2019s to stop the same thing happening here and migrants getting burnt by this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022a03b491796d04e33948de623a93155eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a03b491796d04e33948de623a93155eb\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. This is going to sound like a weird patsy, but I was hoping to get the Minister to explain again her Supplementary Order Paper. I know that she did it at the beginning, but I was just hoping she could do it again. Not so much around the new subsection (6), but the other part, changing \u201Cmay work\u201D with \u201Cmay only work\u201D. Could the Minister just go over that again?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u0022429663fca5af4fa6bb94dc76dae221b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022429663fca5af4fa6bb94dc76dae221b4\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Associate Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Sure. So I\u2019m very happy to do that. As the member mentioned, this Supplementary Order Paper makes two minor changes, both to do with the scope. So the first change that I believe the member is asking about narrows the scope of the document production power. So, initially, the way that the wording was, was such that it could have accidentally inadvertently captured employees who were, for example, on an open work visa and not specifically linked to the employer who\u2019s supporting their visa. The change narrows that so that the document production powers would only apply to the employer that is supporting or named to be supporting that particular migrant worker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f2d332c69d94368b52edac14759aec2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Just for members, while questions and answers are short I\u2019ll try and stick with one member and then move on to another rather than flit around the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u00222791c13b10d84a7ea7541784ff9ec2cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222791c13b10d84a7ea7541784ff9ec2cf\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Thanks for that explanation, and that\u2019s what I thought the Minister would say, so I\u2019m on the right track. I\u2019ve got an issue with that Supplementary Order Paper in relation to the employment infringement offences. So under replacement section 359A(1), inserted by clause 7, \u201CAn employer must not\u201D and they\u2019ve got (a), (b), and (c); (b) is if you work in an inconsistent manner with your visa, so you work an extra shift when you shouldn\u2019t, for example; (c) is around not complying with the documentation request; and (a) is problematic now, because (a) says \u201Callow a person who is not entitled under this Act to work in the employer\u2019s service to do that work\u201D. Now, that potential breach will never be able to be found out because the desk-based officer is only allowed to ask for documentation between an employer and an employee who must only work for them. So I was expecting that if a desk-based officer found out that\u2014I\u2019ll give you an example: the employer is McDonald\u2019s. The employee, their documentation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4f038b39814439a8c3684189b8b13a5\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Good company.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d6c2c01536d44e184846f5ecf35c19b\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: They were in tonight, that\u2019s why I mentioned them. Their employee, his or her employment conditions say \u201CMay only work for KFC\u201D, but is working for McDonald\u2019s. Now, that would be a breach of section 359A(1). However, with this change, the desk-based officer would only be able to ask for documentation between McDonald\u2019s and a person whose visa said \u201CYou must only work for McDonald\u2019s\u201D. So the KFC worker who\u2019s working for McDonald\u2019s\u2014in breach of his visa\u2014and McDonald\u2019s may know that; \u201CHey, we\u2019ve got a KFC worker working for us, great.\u201D Will never be picked up. So my question is around section 359A(1)(a): when would that be triggered? Because it kind of looks like it would never be triggered. So I will just give the Minister some time there. And it looks like this was actually always the intention, because I note in the original bill it actually said in new section 275A(5)(b), inserted by clause 4, \u201Cthey must work for that employer\u201D. We changed it. It looks like it\u2019s been changed in committee to \u201Cmay\u201D, now being changed to \u201Cmay only\u201D. So it looks like we\u2019re going back to what the original intent was. But my question is around when will new section 359A(1) be triggered if a desk-based officer can\u2019t ask for those employment documents?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EWhile we just give the Minister some time, because I\u2019d like to go back to an answer she just gave to my first question, before the break, around the publication\u2014the chief executive \u201Cmay\u201D publish names and information. Now, the Minister has just explained that the chief executive may\u2014he may do it if he wants to, he or she. But my question was around, what is the framework, what is the guidelines for that chief executive to do it or not to do it? We are leaving it completely up to their decision whether or not they publish, but my question is, why is there no framework or guidelines? Surely it would be around, I guess, seriousness, and if it is around seriousness, why is that not included in the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u00227fc7252cd56848908b3185a2ce782860\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227fc7252cd56848908b3185a2ce782860\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Associate Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E As I\u2019ve said before in the House, I feel I have explained the question around \u201Cmay\u201D in new section 383A, inserted by clause 10, but I will say it again. Two things to that, two points that I\u2019d like to make; firstly, the one that I\u2019ve already made, which is that it gives the chief executive a level of discretion. So it is quite clear in the Act that the person who is named must either have been convicted or have been issued an infringement offence. So it\u2019s not leaving it completely up to the discretion of the chief executive at all. It is defined in what cases people can be named on the stand-down list, but it does allow the chief executive to go through it on a case by case basis, in case there\u2019s some reason why a person shouldn\u2019t be named. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EThe second point that I\u2019ll make is that it is a term that aligns with the term that is used in the Employment Relations Act as well. The second question that the member asked, which was around the power\u2014the \u201Cmay only\u201D bit that the member mentioned. That is correct. But this bill doesn\u2019t aim to solve all problems. There are other pieces of legislation and other parts of the legislation that will deal with the problem that the member mentioned. So section 277, for example, would already be able to achieve that aim.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u00224bbbb6e8ad6c474f900d8b9b7694f9f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224bbbb6e8ad6c474f900d8b9b7694f9f1\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Can the Minister, in that case, confirm that replacement section 359A(1)(a), inserted by clause 7\u2014which is the infringement notice that can be given if a person is not entitled to work for that employer\u2014can definitely be triggered by other clauses and in the bill, and under what circumstances? So can she give us an example of how that would be triggered in that case?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022647746019b464c72979bf08dd795c9f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022647746019b464c72979bf08dd795c9f0\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I\u2019d like to raise a different matter. I didn\u2019t sit on the Education and Workforce Committee, so I\u2019m presuming that this matter that I\u2019m to raise was traversed in select committee, and some kind of satisfactory situation evolved from that. I\u2019m particularly referring to replacement section 365B, inserted by clause 9, and this is in relation to how infringement notices may be served. Now, I know from previous pieces of litigation, when an infringement regime has been imposed, normally officials advise that \u201Coh, they\u2019re very difficult to administer\u201D, that \u201Cthe servicing of infringement notices is hard, it\u2019s difficult\u2014you can\u2019t find the people; you can\u2019t identify them. You don\u2019t know where they live; they haven\u2019t got an accurate email address, all those sorts of things\u201D. But here, in this legislation, apparently, miraculously, it\u2019s going to be OK. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m keen to know from the Minister in the chair in relation to section 365B(2)(b), that \u201Cleaving it for [a] person at the person\u2019s last known place of residence with another person who appears to be of or over the age of 14 years\u201D\u2014now, that just strikes me as being ludicrous, absolutely ludicrous, and completely beyond the realms of plausibility. But it gets worse, because section 365B(2)(c) says \u201Cleaving it for the person at the person\u2019s place of business or work\u201D\u2014with another person again. So someone just comes into a workplace\u2014say, the parliamentary precinct\u2014leaves it with the security guy and says, \u201CPlease pass this to, oh, I don\u2019t know, Michael Wood, the previous Minister of Transport\u2014he used to be in that job, we don\u2019t know that he\u2019s here anymore. He\u2019s gone away and done something else completely different\u201D. Who\u2019s going to do it?\u2014actually, you probably have to deliver it to him 12 times before it might get through. So I\u2019m interested to know about that clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EAnd then, here, it goes on again: section 365(2)(d) says \u201Csending it to the person by prepaid post addressed to the person\u2019s last known place of residence or place of business or work\u201D. This is just a lottery. Postal services are notoriously slow and ineffective. We\u2019re not dealing these days with a snail mail regime that is in any way purposeful. But it just strikes me that to be leaving the provision of infringement notices being served to this kind of random pot-luck status is just asking for trouble. So I\u2019m keen to know what the Minister has to say on those matters, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022 data-id=\u0022886873dc497443769246b36bb4e9f6ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022886873dc497443769246b36bb4e9f6ca\u0022\u003EDr JAMES McDOWALL (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair? Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d47f33e6dd254c93be7b80a6f9072aba\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Dr James McDowall.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022045de7dda57745baa6b1439b9355f57b\u0022\u003EDr JAMES McDOWALL\u003C/span\u003E: Apologies, Mr Chair, for misgendering you just then. So just to follow up on the previous discussion between my colleague Erica Stanford and the Minister\u2014just to seek some further clarity there. So the Supplementary Order Paper 360 states that\u2014in the wording as we\u2019ve canvassed it, \u201Cunless the worker\u2019s visa allows them to work only for that particular employer\u201D. So is the Minister saying then, effectively, that if an employer hires migrant employees unlawfully and say those employees have an Accredited Employer Work Visa for a different employer, and they haven\u2019t done variation of conditions, etc.,\u2014does this wording mean that, in theory, Immigration New Zealand can\u2019t access the documentation for those employees? Because that would seem rather strange and counter-intuitive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u00223e8ed400405d425eb5b23f6309db20e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e8ed400405d425eb5b23f6309db20e5\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Associate Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E I will clarify, for both members\u2019 benefit, what this particular section is aiming to do. In the example that was provided around McDonald\u2019s\u2014basically what this bill is aiming to do is to ensure that we have the tools to be able to nip lowerlevel offending in the bud, because currently all that immigration officers have is prosecution, which is a very high threshold; it\u2019s severe offending. We have evidence that shows that nipping lower-level offending in the bud prevents it then, potentially, from becoming severe offending, and so largely, this is what this bill aims to do, to ensure that we have the tools to be able to do this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003ESo in this case, if, for example\u2014the example that Erica Stanford provided\u2014McDonald\u2019s is hiring a migrant worker, they\u2019re meant to have, under the law currently, documents showing the contractual obligations there, then what this means is that deskbased immigration officers would have the powers to then ask the employer to show them the specific documentation for the specific migrants that they are hiring to make sure that they are compliant with the law. That\u2019s pretty much what it does. If, for example, they then have reason to suspect that there\u2019s potential other exploitation going on that isn\u2019t captured in the changes made to this bill, then there are other powers within legislation for them to be able to search, for example. So the section 277 power is a search power which would allow immigration officers to actually go into the premises and figure out what\u2019s going on in terms of compliance or non-compliance. So to both members\u2019 questions, that\u2019s the aim of this section. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EIn terms of the serving of infringement notices, I mean, officers won\u2019t be able to magic up specific ways to ensure that infringement notices are served, and so the list here that the member read out has different ways in which, you know, officers who are serving or issuing that notice can try and get the infringement notice to the person it\u2019s being issued to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022130071a6fe05453d9629a0ae6e134c86\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022130071a6fe05453d9629a0ae6e134c86\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Well, it was interesting listening to the Minister\u2019s explanation there, because, well, she basically said that once a desk-based officer had asked for documentation and looked at that documentation and suspected something else was going on\u2014well, I guess the point is they wouldn\u2019t suspect something else was going on because they wouldn\u2019t know because they weren\u2019t able to have access to any documentation. So, yes, while I understand they can then go and visit the business, as we all know, that doesn\u2019t happen very often at all\u2014we know that from the statistics. So, if the Minister was trying to create a bill that gave her powers to be able to identify where people were not abiding by the conditions of their visa, well, this bill doesn\u2019t do that. I guess the question for the Minister is: how would the desk-based officers have any hunch that something else was going on if they weren\u2019t able to ask for that documentation? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EBut I\u2019ll move on, and the Minister can answer that later on. I\u2019ll move on to a different point. I guess the question for the Minister is: is she aware of an existing power that Immigration New Zealand already have, to ask for wage, time, and contracts from employers? Does she know that that\u2019s something that Immigration are already able to do, and, under what circumstances could they do that, is the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9b2248f46a24057949eadd446254b63\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9b2248f46a24057949eadd446254b63\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I\u2019d like to go back to this question of how an infringement notice is going to be served on an employer, because I don\u2019t think the Minister\u2019s answer was remotely satisfactory. Just providing, in the statute, a list of potential options might be well and good but the question surely should be: are those options going to be effective? Is the infringement notice actually going to get to the person that it\u2019s intended to give effect to? I\u2019m not remotely convinced that any of these options so far that I\u2019ve mentioned will provide the kind of certainty or surety that a court would look to, when potentially prosecuting under this legislation, because I think a court\u2019s going to say, \u201CWell, look, you know, just turning up to the parliamentary precinct and handing over a document to the security guy and asking him\u2014he or she\u2014to deliver that to somebody else, that\u2019s pretty random.\u201D But it gets better. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo I went through four or three of the options that the statute\u2019s going to provide, but replacement section 365B(2)(e), in clause 9, says, simply, \u201Csending it to an electronic address of the person in any case where the person does not have a known place of residence or business in New Zealand\u201D. Now, that\u2019s even surely more random\u2014some kind of just fictitious, imaginary made up email address. Or will it be a Facebook page? Will it be a TikTok address? Will it be an Instagram thing? What on earth does that mean to be \u201Can electronic address of the person in any case where the person does not have a known place of residence or business in New Zealand\u201D? And I think the question I have for the Minister is: what does that mean in practical terms? What\u2019s going to be the practical impact of the wording of a piece of black-letter law that says something as vague and as uncertain as that, and what are our judicial friends going to interpret that to mean?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u002285147b3781c441feb085d6ad7366f784\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002285147b3781c441feb085d6ad7366f784\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019ll carry on from my last line of questioning. My question was: is the Minister aware of any powers of Immigration that they already have to ask for these documents that are being signalled in this bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThe reason I ask that is that Immigration New Zealand currently have a power to ask for this documentation when they are accrediting businesses under the employer accreditation process, so they can ask for it at that stage. They can also ask for it\u2014and they have been just recently asking for it again or asking for it for the first time, potentially\u2014when they are doing a check on those accredited businesses like they are doing now at Immigration New Zealand. So, a year ago, we accredited a whole lot of businesses and now, a year down the track, Immigration New Zealand are doing checks on these accredited businesses and asking for employment documentation, like wage records, like contracts. So that is already happening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003ESo I guess the question for the Minister is why is it that we are creating a bill allowing this to happen when Immigration New Zealand are currently already doing it? They\u2019re doing it when a business becomes accredited, they\u2019re doing it in an accreditation check and, in the case of certain businesses like franchisees who have to become accredited every single year because they are in a high-risk industry, then they can potentially be asked for that documentation every single year. That is one of the listed types of businesses that may be targeted under this law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003ESo I guess the question for the Minister is, if I was an employer and I was asked for this documentation when I became accredited, when the accreditation check happened, and then every single year when I became accredited, what is the need for this bill if that\u2019s already happening? Are we just creating something (a) that is not needed and (b) is overkill, because this information can and is already being asked for?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4c5583b1d5a4b40bb8488114ae82a96\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4c5583b1d5a4b40bb8488114ae82a96\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Associate Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E So, a couple of things. Firstly, immigration officers don\u2019t act based on hunches, and to the point that was made earlier in terms of how they might then find out that they have reasonable cause to suspect that there\u2019s other forms of exploitation potentially taking place, there are other ways in which they can get that information, not necessarily through these changes that we are proposing, because the whole point of these changes is to check compliance and to nip low-level offending in the bud as I\u2019ve said a few times already.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003ESection 277, as I mentioned earlier, does allow immigration officers search powers. Again, I said this twice already in the House. They do allow immigration officers powers to search various employment documents and things like that, but the threshold is much higher and it is a much more obtrusive power because they are physically going into employers\u2019 spaces and checking compliance. This is to allow desk-based\u2014certain deskbased\u2014immigration officers the power to request specific documentation that employers who employ migrant workers should already, or are required already under the law to, hold. So it\u2019s really just checking compliance, there, and that\u2019s what these new powers will enable them to do, because they don\u2019t currently have those powers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EGoing back to the member\u2019s question and great interest in infringement offences and how they\u2019re served, this is standard drafting for how infringements are already served. So, there you go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00228c77a816b1b84549b2eef05f85d31aea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c77a816b1b84549b2eef05f85d31aea\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I beg to differ\u2014it\u2019s not. And we\u2019ve had cases of legislation come to this House where infringement regimes have been literally tossed out because they are not able to fulfil this kind of nonsense that is being proposed in this legislation. So let\u2019s assume for a moment that someone has left a notice at a person\u2019s last known place of address with a person who appears to be over the age of 14, or maybe they\u2019ve left it at the person\u2019s place of business or work with another person unknown, unspecified, or perhaps it\u2019s been sent by a pre-paid post address to the person\u2019s last known place of residence or place of business or work, and none of those have been able to achieve the successful outcome required. Replacement section 365B(3), inserted by clause 9, creates a presumption of service, just a presumption that the infringement notice has been served; and it says, in section 365B(3)(b): \u201Ca notice sent to a valid electronic address is to be treated as having been served at the time the electronic communication first entered an information system that is outside the control of the Department.\u201D Well that\u2019s just drafting gobbledegook\u2014drafting gobbledegook.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EWhat is and who determines a \u201Cvalid electronic address\u201D? How can that be determined? Who decides, and how would you know? How on earth would you know whether it was a valid electronic address or not? So I simply reject the notion that this is standard drafting procedure\u2014it\u2019s not. It hasn\u2019t been applied in previous legislation\u2014I can remember bringing to this House a piece of legislation that would have modestly increased the fines for littering, and the Government threw it out, said \u201COh, no, no, you can\u2019t have infringement notices, they don\u2019t work. You can\u2019t serve them, nobody knows how to contact the people and you can\u2019t identify them.\u201D Why should this piece of legislation magically cure all those questions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u002249c1bf73e53d4cd0adc8eb17a8db32f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002249c1bf73e53d4cd0adc8eb17a8db32f8\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll go back to my question around the powers of Immigration New Zealand to already ask for the documentation that\u2019s been referred to in this bill. So at the moment, post-accreditation checks are being undertaken and exactly these documentations are being requested: wage records and contracts. So employment records are already being asked for. And if a business is to be re-accredited every year, they could be asked for their information. So my question remains to the Minister: does Immigration New Zealand already have the power to ask for wage records and contracts like they\u2019re asking for right now in the post-accreditation check process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u0022793787604ca04ccca3384fcff3f9ec48\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022793787604ca04ccca3384fcff3f9ec48\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Associate Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E There will be some employers, many perhaps, who will go through the accreditation process to be able to employ a migrant worker, and for them what the member is saying is true, but there will be others who don\u2019t, for whom these particular powers will be new powers that allow immigration officers to require or to check compliance with the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003ETo Scott Simpson\u2019s repeated points around the methods of serving infringement notices, I\u2019ll say a couple of things. One is that there are different options, and the person who\u2019s serving the notice will obviously pick the option that they think is most reliant in their bid to get the notice served. The second thing that I will say is that things need to be looked at in context. With this particular bill, the people that Immigration are contacting will be from companies that already have interaction with the immigration system, so it is quite likely that they will already hold the information that\u2019s required to be able to serve the infringement notice in a way that is reliable. And then, clearly, they will pick the most reliable method. Those are the points that I will make to the members. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u002246a77771e79e47cf842a2dea10e5a319\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246a77771e79e47cf842a2dea10e5a319\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just want to ask the Associate Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety, in relation to the power to access employment documents\u2014and earlier she had actually answered in relation to my colleague Erica Stanford in relation to the way that the immigration officers work, that they don\u2019t work on hunches, and these are new powers, that the immigration officers could ask for documentation related to employment of migrant workers. If they are to require this documentation at random, I\u2019d like to know how they are selected at random. Some of them, they might have infringed a rule and there might have been a report or some sort of a complaint\u2014I can understand that happening. But if they\u2019re doing it in a random manner, as in, I think it was the first reading when we were talking about potentially\u2014\u201Cfishing expedition\u201D was one of the terms that was used. If that is the case, is there a profile being established on the bad actors in this field, and are they ethnically linked? Are they doing ethnic profiling for this? Who are the supposed bad actors in this case? I\u2019d like to know how the Minister is going to determine why some people will require these documents to be produced and not everyone or others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u002267c2ebc3a6cc499d9012f0830cfde32a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267c2ebc3a6cc499d9012f0830cfde32a\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E I want to just probe further into the Minister\u2019s last answer, when she agreed that employers who had been accredited under the Accredited Employer Work Visa scheme already can be asked for these documents, and are currently actually being asked for them in the post-accreditation process. Then she said, \u201CWell, there will be other businesses who don\u2019t have to get accredited who this will apply to.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003ESo my question is: which businesses are those and how many of them are there? Because I\u2019m trying to understand what type of business would have a migrant worker tied to their employment who would not be required to be\u2014what\u2019s the word?\u2014accredited. So the Minister clearly stated that she agreed with me that if you are an accredited business, you can already be asked for this information, but she said that there are other businesses who don\u2019t need to be accredited who might have migrant workers tied to their business, which this bill would apply to. So my question is: which businesses, under what visa scheme, would not need to be accredited, and how many of them are there? Because my understanding is that pretty much all businesses need to be accredited these days if they are going to have someone tied to their employ. So that\u2019s a question for the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EThis is something that I brought up at first and second reading, because I was concerned about the over-regulation of these businesses. They can already be asked for this information at accreditation, post-accreditation, and, in some cases, every single year, because they are required to be accredited every year, like if you are a franchise or in a triangular employment relationship, you can be asked every single year. So the Minister has agreed that, yes, they can already be asked for that information. So why the need in this bill to lay out the fact that this can happen, if it\u2019s already able to happen, as the Minister has just agreed to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022057160921a1c44f7aacd8796dee6ba1e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022057160921a1c44f7aacd8796dee6ba1e\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Well, we now come to the other end of the infringement notice exercise, which is the revocation of an infringement notice. It\u2019s interesting that the serving of an infringement notice goes into some detail about how it should be communicated; I\u2019ve raised questions about the inadequacy of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EBut when it comes to the revocation of an infringement notice, it merely says, in replacement section 235D(2), inserted by clause 21, that \u201CThe Labour Inspector must take reasonable steps to ensure that the person to whom the notice was issued is made aware of the \u2026 revocation notice.\u201D Now, there\u2019s no explanation as to whether that needs to be delivered to a former place of work by a person who might or might not be 14 or older or it may be someone who used to live at the same address as the person who might have been there before or it was to some electronic address, whether it\u2019s a TikTok or an email or a Facebook or something of that nature. So I\u2019m keen to know, from the Minister, why there is quite extensive drafting relating to the issuing and serving of an infringement notice, but when it comes to the revocation of an infringement notice, it merely says that the inspector \u201Cmust take reasonable steps to ensure\u201D. Surely there is a disparaging difference in status and requirements in that area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee547ff254794cb6821e05afca998be4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225bbd9f26-fdb0-4b85-a836-0fc46e1bba3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee547ff254794cb6821e05afca998be4\u0022\u003EHon Dr DAVID CLARK (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022676459fa7a104848a6efd86bb7de568c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022676459fa7a104848a6efd86bb7de568c\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019ve many, many things to traverse still, including the questions I\u2019ve already asked that we\u2019re waiting on the Minister to answer around the fact that Immigration New Zealand already have the power to do much of what she is asking from this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll move on to a different topic, though, and that\u2019s around flexibility. We made the point at the first and second readings around flexibility in a tight labour market, whereby if you are an employer and you are trying desperately to ensure that you are covering shifts, especially if you work in healthcare\u2014and I\u2019ll give you the example of, let\u2019s say, a retirement village or a rest home which employs nurses and must do so 24/7. If a nurse stays behind for one or two hours to cover the shift of the next nurse who\u2019s running late or has called in sick and is waiting on a replacement nurse, that migrant worker may well be in breach of their visa by working that extra couple of hours to keep the people in that rest home safe and for the employer to be acting in accordance with the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister is around: is it her expectation that there will be some flexibility with this regime in that replacement section 359A(1)(b) inserted by clause 7 if the migrant worker is working in an inconsistent manner with their work-related conditions of their visa by working an extra couple of hours because they were covering a shift? The bill is silent around the flexibility of the discretion of a desk-based officer to act in this case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EAnother example might be a bartender who\u2019s covering front of house for a shift. He\u2019s not overdoing his hours, but just working in a different role slightly, because, as we know at the moment in hospitality, for example, they are very short-staffed, especially in certain regions of New Zealand like W\u0101naka or Queenstown, for example, and employers\u2014good employers\u2014are doing their best and employees, especially migrant workers, are more than happy on many occasions to do something a bit different. Now, if this came up from a desk-based officer and it seemed to be a relatively minor breach\u2014but none the less a breach\u2014what is the flexibility that the desk-based officer has in this instance when it comes to the infringement? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EIt would seem that these are very low-level breaches, but this is exactly what the Minister keeps talking about\u2014getting on top of these low-level breaches. But these are examples that most people would think are perfectly reasonable for a couple of hours covering a nurse\u2019s shift, for example, or a bartender quite happily covering front of house for the night when those staff are particularly stretched in that industry. So I\u2019m keen to get the Minister\u2019s views on that flexibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u00223c0fedee21fe4b5fa842f578dddccaa1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c0fedee21fe4b5fa842f578dddccaa1\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Associate Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E As I\u2019ve mentioned time and again in this House, the point of this bill is for us to be able to nip low-level offending in the bud before it becomes severe offending. So a low-level breach wouldn\u2019t be explained away through flexibility; it\u2019s still a breach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003ETo the member\u2019s question around the types of employers who may not be accredited but would still be subjected to the document production powers in this bill, there are examples where employers don\u2019t go through the accreditation process that the member has outlined. A couple of examples there would be employees who are on specific purposes visas or events-based or Recognised Seasonal Employer (RSE) workers\u2014employers of RSE workers\u2014for example. That\u2019s just a couple of examples given the member asked for some.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003ETo Melissa Lee\u2019s points around the documents that can be required, they are explicitly stated in the provision. So, specifically, employment documents that an employer is already legally required to hold, or can be expected to hold, under the law. Of course, only employers who have supported a visa application can be required to supply documents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EThe other question that she had was around how businesses and employers would be targeted by Immigration New Zealand (INZ) and what the tools were that would be used to be able to do that targeting. INZ is developing a risk-based prioritisation process for verification and compliance checks. That\u2019ll be part of the risk management for the Accredited Employer Work Visa scheme as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003ESo verification checks will be done in response to specific reports. There is also intelligence that INZ receives based on specific sectors and specific industries where there is a lack of compliance, and so that is the information that will be used to undertake these proactive checks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022 data-id=\u00220749ee34660244a99220073bcf44f7ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220749ee34660244a99220073bcf44f7ea\u0022\u003EDr JAMES McDOWALL (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Well, based on that response\u2014well, in fact, part of that response\u2014I do sincerely hope the target of this bill is not specific purpose work visa holders, because it would just be getting weirder and weirder at that point. There are certainly valid concerns that our colleagues in the National Party have raised here regarding accreditation and what difference does this bill actually make, so definitely some issues there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003EOne thing the Minister said previously is that employers will have existing relationships with Immigration New Zealand, and therein lies one of the major problems here is that if you\u2019ve got an employer who doesn\u2019t have that relationship who is hiring migrants unlawfully, they\u2019re going to be completely missed by this. And in terms of the other aspects for the high-level offences in the immigration system, they\u2019re probably going to be missed by that as well. So I don\u2019t think the issue of exploitation is sufficiently being addressed in this bill or in the immigration system because, ultimately\u2014and this is one area I\u2019d like the Minister to actually talk about\u2014the problem here with exploitation is tying migrant visas to employers. That was required under essential skills back in the day, it\u2019s required under the accreditation system\u2014an Accredited Employer Work Visa. From our party\u2019s perspective, we should be doing away with these sorts of visas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003EBut I would like the Minister to just reflect on that and give her opinion on that, because to solve a lot of these exploitation issues, these abusive relationships between bad employers and good employees\u2014or good-intentioned employees\u2014would be solved if they could move around freely and weren\u2019t beholden to that employer. I do have another few questions, but I\u2019ll leave that section there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022daafa2eb50e14fe2ad1e29435559f739\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022daafa2eb50e14fe2ad1e29435559f739\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just want to put on the record the Minister\u2019s comments before to my questions around flexibility, when I mentioned, for example, a nurse is running a couple of hours late and a migrant nurse covers that shift for two hours and that puts her over her number of hours for the week. The Minister has very clearly stated tonight that it is her absolute intention that every low-level breach, if it is found by a desk-based officer when they are going through these records, an infringement notice will\u2014well, I asked the question, \u201CIs there any flexibility?\u201D, and the Minister said, \u201CIt is to nip these types of things in the bud; it shouldn\u2019t be happening, and if it\u2019s found then they will be nipped in the bud.\u201D So my understanding from that comment is that if a desk-based officer finds that a migrant nurse has worked over her hours by one or two because she was covering a shift for another nurse who was running late, then that will result in an infringement offence, and an infringement notice on that employer who was just trying to do the right thing. So if I\u2019m wrong in that and there is some leeway, and it doesn\u2019t necessarily always end up in an infringement offence because there is some flexibility by the desk-based officer to not issue that infringement notice, then I\u2019m happy to hear that, but from the Minister\u2019s comments about \u201Cnipping all of these low-level breaches in the bud no matter what the circumstance\u201D\u2014then I\u2019d be happy to hear that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003EI want to talk about the\u2014just carrying on from what my colleague Melissa Lee has been talking about, we\u2019ve had a problem the whole way along in this bill around the fact that there are no reasonable grounds for requesting these documents. Now, many submitters\u2014we\u2019ve traversed this already in the second reading\u2014also made that same argument and they did say that this would end up in fishing expeditions. It is stated in the departmental report though that it says \u201CImmigration New Zealand will develop a process that prioritises high-risk employers for desk-based requests.\u201D So things like triangular business models, franchises, industries with high-risk or historical issues, so there will be a process to prioritise these high-risk employers. And our point all along, and my point tonight, is why is it that we can\u2019t have that in the bill specified that the reasonable grounds will be based on these high-risk employers that we already know about\u2014the triangular business models, the franchises, the higher-risk businesses with historical issues around migrant exploitation\u2014rather than \u201CYou can do anyone, anytime, anytime you like\u201D? Because what is to stop a desk-based officer going after the same employer every single month for 12 months? There\u2019s nothing in the bill that stops them from doing that. It could be a weekly or monthly request for this low-level offending.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister is: why is it that there was no leeway at all, even though Immigration New Zealand have said that they will develop a process to prioritise these high-risk employers that they already know about? If that\u2019s the case, then why not just write it into the bill so we have some reasonable grounds clause so that we don\u2019t get exactly what my colleague Melissa Lee was talking about, which is, for all intents and purposes, a fishing expedition?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u00225d724ff690134175b0f83cdf4fb71546\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d724ff690134175b0f83cdf4fb71546\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Associate Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E So a couple of things here. To the points that were raised around migrants being employed unlawfully who won\u2019t be captured by this bill, that is correct. As I\u2019ve said already in the House time and time again, this bill does not claim to be a silver bullet that will end migrant exploitation. The point of this bill is to nip lower-level offending in the bud before it becomes severe offending. There are other ways in which other unlawful activity can be captured and dealt with. For example, as I\u2019ve mentioned again at least five times in the House tonight, section 277 allows search powers for higherlevel offending to be captured and dealt with. Again, it\u2019s about striking that balance between ensuring that employers can fill genuine skills shortages but ensuring also that migrant workers are not exploited. This is one measure that we\u2019re taking to be able to do that. Our Government has brought in a series of measures to tackle migrant exploitation from various angles, and that is what is needed because there is no silver bullet to end this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EIn terms of flexibility for nurses, this is exactly the problem with using hypothetical examples, because migrant nurses, for example, don\u2019t have working hours as part of their visa conditions. So the example that the member provided cannot actually happen. So I will go back to the point that I made: that low-level offending often becomes severe offending. The tools that we are wanting to give immigration officers and the Labour Inspectorate to align those powers and tools is to ensure that we can nip lower-level offending in the bud, and that\u2019s what this bill aims to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EIn terms of high-risk industries or companies, that is correct: there is, as I mentioned already previously, immigration intelligence that gives Immigration some sense of where the high-risk behaviour happens. So they are developing a risk-based prioritisation process, as I mentioned. The reason there\u2019s no necessity for reasonable grounds in this legislation, again, as I have said on multiple occasions in this House previously, is because the document production powers of this bill enables reasonably unobtrusive powers, because all they are doing is requiring employers to show documentation that they already have to hold legally under the law. So it is not an obtrusive power of search entry, but it\u2019s just one of showing the records that you already need to hold if you hire a migrant. So there\u2019s no need for reasonable grounds; that would preclude us from being proactive in terms of compliance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022c26d5c026aea4084993c77fb991db195\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c26d5c026aea4084993c77fb991db195\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E In that case then, just taking the example out of it, is there, in the Minister\u2019s view, any case where a desk-based officer finds a low-level breach that is relatively minor that is\u2014let\u2019s say a couple of hours, or, like I mentioned, covering a slightly different job when that particular business was very short-staffed. Or does she expect that every single breach, when it is found, will result in an infringement offence? There\u2019s nothing in the bill to suggest that there is any ability for the desk-based officer to not issue an infringement notice when they may decide it is extremely low-level and no one was harmed and everyone was happy, and it was just a one-off. Is it her expectation, and I\u2019m sorry to labour the point and get her to keep repeating herself\u2014I know she\u2019s getting a bit tetchy about that\u2014but I am just trying to understand, is there any case that she would expect a desk-based officer not to issue an infringement notice, or is she expecting that in every single case that is found that an infringement notice will be given when a low-level breach is found?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s the question, I just want to know if there is any situation where she would expect that desk-based officer might not issue an infringement notice, or is it a hard \u201CYou find the breach no matter what it is and you issue an infringement notice\u201D? That\u2019s all I\u2019m asking; we just haven\u2019t had that answer yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a9b20381c634a3e91065f77f3c4c6ae\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Ms Stanford, I\u2019ll just say you\u2019ve given yourself up a little bit about asking the same question several times, which is of course a cause for a closure motion. However, I\u2019ll pass over to the Minister. Just to advise you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022 data-id=\u002253987c98563b42be85e0112344a8a647\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253987c98563b42be85e0112344a8a647\u0022\u003EDr JAMES McDOWALL (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Just a very quick, slightly different question. So the Supplementary Order Paper as drafted prevents an immigration officer from using documentation to the detriment of a migrant. We\u2019ve established that. So my question then is: say that migrant has come from a country that requires assessment in Porirua, requires a national security check, and that has been done in the past\u2014I won\u2019t name the countries that that applies to because it\u2019s actually not public information, get myself in trouble. But say that\u2019s happened\u2014say they pass the national security check and then say they\u2019ve been involved in one of these businesses that\u2019s been investigated and had documents searched. Now, that won\u2019t be used against the migrant necessarily under the Immigration Act, but can the SIS request that information? Can that cause issues for their compliance in that regard? I\u2019m just curious about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022787623a903a3453294f540bbf5d097ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022787623a903a3453294f540bbf5d097ce\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00221f1a492f26bd45f4baa9bf471d4a36ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f1a492f26bd45f4baa9bf471d4a36ac\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I\u2019m sure you won\u2019t regret it. I\u2019m hoping the Minister will, though\u2014no. It\u2019s a good face question\u2014excuse me, a good-faith question, even. It could be a good face question too, but viewers of Parliament TV might disagree.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAnyway\u2014so my question relates to clause 10, inserting new section 383A, \u201CPublication of names and information in respect of immigration offences\u201D. So my question is reasonably straightforward, I think, but an important one nevertheless. So this is talking about how the chief executive, in order to promote the objects of the Act or to do the things that we want this legislation to do, or that the Government wants it to do, can publish the information specified elsewhere, which I\u2019ll get to, in relation to an employer who has been convicted of an offence against the Act or issued with an infringement notice. So I suppose there\u2019s an element\u2014and the policy intent\u2014of saying: well, if someone\u2019s done something wrong that infringes the Act, then it\u2019s fair that the whole world should know about them: their name; their trading name, if different; and so forth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister is whether this is still something that can take place if there\u2019s been a conviction under the Act, but if that\u2019s being appealed. So if there\u2019s an appeal in front of the courts, where a person might say, \u201CWell, actually, you know, I\u2019ve got a good reason to appeal. I\u2019m saying that I shouldn\u2019t have been convicted.\u201D, can that person\u2019s name be publicised as though they had\u2014or, indeed, recognising that they had at that point\u2014been convicted? Of course, once you publish something, the whole world knows and it\u2019s very hard to get that toothpaste back in the tube, those worms back in the can, and other reverse clich\u00E9s like that. So that\u2019s just my straightforward question and indeed my only one, pending the Minister\u2019s answer, of course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022235b82338fdb4f48aed08f816e8a2c0b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022235b82338fdb4f48aed08f816e8a2c0b\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E I want to give the Minister some time to just make some notes and answer the questions. I notice that there\u2019s nothing\u2014this is a different point\u2014in the supporting commentary of this bill around getting Immigration New Zealand to commit to processing a variation of conditions, changes, more quickly to help reduce migrant exploitation. And I\u2019m wondering if the Minister would consider a change in the supporting commentary that would state that Immigration New Zealand would commit to fast processing of variation of conditions to help reduce migrant exploitation. Because that\u2019s one of the key drivers of getting migrants out of exploitation; it\u2019s actually to get the conditions of their visa changed really quickly so that they can move out of the situation where they\u2019re being exploited and on to another employer. Nothing in the supporting commentary of this bill commits to that, and I\u2019m wondering, if we were to do a quick Supplementary Order Paper, whether or not the Minister would support putting something in the supporting commentary to state that Immigration New Zealand should commit to quick processing of those variation of conditions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022 data-id=\u0022bad440f699d6474ab8a7a3b07507ad34\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bad440f699d6474ab8a7a3b07507ad34\u0022\u003EDr JAMES McDOWALL (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Just going back to the question that I did just before the dinner break, which was answered just after, around the adverse actions. My question was just around \u201Cversus just actions\u201D, whether that was open to interpretation. Now, the Minister has addressed that and has spoken about MEV\u2014so migrant exploitation visa\u2014saying that the MEV may be offered or the information won\u2019t be used to prejudice the migrant. But to establish a dialogue and say to them, \u201COK, here\u2019s an option for you. Have you considered this?\u201D\u2014but therein is another problem, because how do we ensure that that will happen? You know, is there scope, does the Minister think, to include something in the bill here? Whether it\u2019s another Supplementary Order Paper (SOP), to ensure that that happens, to ensure that the migrant is protected and not prejudiced, perhaps an amnesty period of some sort or just a commitment to go down that MEV pathway because some immigration officers do get a bit gung ho\u2014and all we have to do is look at the IPT, the Immigration and Protection Tribunal, and the sheer number of decisions that get overturned; I believe it\u2019s close to half. And the reason is that Immigration instructions have not been correctly interpreted or followed by immigration officers. So there are certainly still issues here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ff1ad5a3-e02a-4ffe-a961-ef69bdaee1c9\u0022\u003EI would also want to inquire into the longer term. When a migrant goes to renew their work visa or get a different work visa, can that information be used then? How can we be sure that it won\u2019t be used then and that they won\u2019t get pinged under this regime based on history? You know, the SOP says that they can\u2019t be negatively affected. But is she absolutely confident that they won\u2019t be in subsequent applications?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u0022b83364a75d36491381b1d3f5362da0e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b83364a75d36491381b1d3f5362da0e1\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Associate Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E So to that last point around how we ensure that the migrant worker is protected and that information that is released inadvertently that might otherwise prejudice subsequent visa applications of the migrant worker, that is exactly why there\u2019s a Supplementary Order Paper to strengthen the primary legislation. So the other way that we could have done that is through Immigration instructions. But my sense was that that wouldn\u2019t provide strong enough or robust enough provisions, and that\u2019s why we\u2019re changing the legislation to reflect that. That is pretty much as strong as you can go in terms of protecting the migrant, from my point of view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EIn terms of low-level breaches, again, this is a question that\u2019s come up repeatedly, and I feel I have addressed it on multiple occasions: a low-level breach is still a breach. Who determines what is minor? Who determines\u2014the whole point, as I\u2019ve said again, ad nauseum, in the House, is that the point of this bill is to address low-level offending. So then being flexible around that very low-level offending has the potential to lead to the problem that we\u2019re trying to fix, which is that low-level offending often turns into severe offending and we only have tools to address that currently. So we\u2019re trying to take it back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EIn terms of variations of conditions, I agree that there are many ways in which we need to address migrant worker exploitation\u2014again, a point that I\u2019ve made a number of times tonight. But what I will say is that we have undertaken a suite of measures that sits technically outside of the scope of this bill. But I will say that the Migrant Exploitation Protection Work Visa is one way in which we can help migrant workers who\u2019ve been exploited to get out of that situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022 data-id=\u002205d7308e694149999dc56c9bf632bd77\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cc477162-e622-4c94-add7-36a586729e51\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205d7308e694149999dc56c9bf632bd77\u0022\u003ENAISI CHEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022176ccf182cec486e80bdc608529f7ad8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022176ccf182cec486e80bdc608529f7ad8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I will indicate to the committee that this will need to be new business. We\u2019ve covered a lot of ground tonight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef7fec30245a4493b79fe07fc928d5b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef7fec30245a4493b79fe07fc928d5b0\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE (National):\u003C/span\u003E It will be the first time, actually, that I\u2019m asking a question on this part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290f732881f624df4bb526743e29133bb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, just because you\u2019re asking it for the first time, this doesn\u2019t mean others haven\u2019t asked it\u2014that\u2019s all I\u2019ll say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022212968a71fea41428d28bca23d2d5bb0\u0022\u003EMELISSA LEE\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. Mr Chair, the Minister has not actually addressed this part, so I would like to ask, if I may, sir. I\u2019d like to look into the area of replacement section 365B, \u201CHow infringement notice may be served: employers\u201D, in clause 9. I know that my colleague Scott Simpson has actually asked and made some comments about how it may happen, and perhaps the officials may assist the Minister. It\u2019s replacement section 365B(2)(e). Often infringement notices are issued to the person by way of a letter, by serving it to the person, or, potentially, leaving it in a place of residence, but the thing is that this particular section talks about \u201Csending it to an electronic address of the person in any case where the person does not have a known place of residence or business in New Zealand.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EI\u2019m not going to talk about what Scott Simpson talked about. I know he sort of said what does it actually involve, but what I\u2019m actually curious to find out\u2014in this day and age, there are a lot of people who use technology. There are many forms of electronic addresses. Does it only mean an email address, or does it actually include the other forms of identity that we talk about? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003EIn this House, we even passed a digital identity facilitation bill to facilitate people being able to properly identify who they are online so that it is reducing the fraud situation. So I\u2019m trying to find out if there\u2019s a way that the Minister has figured out how this electronic address\u2014or is she just looking at one form of address? Could it be Facebook, could it be Instagram, or could it be something completely different, or utilising the digital identity providers, for example? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022447c1277e1084575b4554fd58ffaf860\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022447c1277e1084575b4554fd58ffaf860\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022235df9f7eac7431aa763b5cd9bb73466\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022235df9f7eac7431aa763b5cd9bb73466\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to clause 4 set out on Supplementary Order Paper No. 360 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225b8d573c4fb64f11958e489147c1b345\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 33; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e3085972cf90480096b9984092977a62\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Parts 1 to 3, Schedules 1 to 3, and clauses 1 and 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te\u00A0Paati\u00A0M\u0101ori\u00A02; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000723\u0022\u003EParts 1 to 3, Schedules 1 to 3, and clauses 1 and 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000724\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223e5dd8e61fd845388817d454f69b03b7\u0022\u003EBusiness Payment Practices Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224b363bc6bef74fcda4f4915f5be51672\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a6a29ff23253464aa7ee9d73de2e9183\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00224926ccf7e404491fac37798a6fe30683\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224926ccf7e404491fac37798a6fe30683\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to the Business Payment Practices Bill. We start this debate on Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022c531e698c39a423a99dfea8e4cfe924e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c531e698c39a423a99dfea8e4cfe924e\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Chairperson. I seek leave for all provisions to be taken as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022cebd8afb540d43958d52d85c52cfd0d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cebd8afb540d43958d52d85c52cfd0d8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection? There is objection. Part 1: this is the debate on clauses 3 to 7, and the Schedule, \u201CPreliminary provisions\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec01e3017c1d46478614c40bc7507e86\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec01e3017c1d46478614c40bc7507e86\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair, for the unexpected pleasure of this call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022716efc4ac60048169cdeded31dc02f45\u0022\u003EHon Mark Mitchell\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a good decision though.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f74aceff7a04d589c24c7952c695e8c\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Yes it is a good\u2014well, I don\u2019t know if it\u2019s a good decision, we\u2019ll soon find out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI wonder if we can perhaps commence by seeking that the Minister explain the rationale behind Part 1 of the bill, and in particular how the policy aims that are set out in the explanatory note will be achieved by those provisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd1f47fb15534f55aeac936f1dd56f26\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd1f47fb15534f55aeac936f1dd56f26\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Penk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5b7e9c57fb9426ba9d76e36eb1cae0c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5b7e9c57fb9426ba9d76e36eb1cae0c\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. If I can just build on that theme that I\u2019ve been developing so clearly when I finished my first contribution, I would perhaps also ask that the Minister please address just what the rationale was for the cut-off date in determining the size of the businesses in terms of that revenue\u2014whether it\u2019s, obviously, the $33 million mark in terms of revenue and the $10 million mark in terms of third-party expenditure. No doubt those have been worked out for some very particular reason that the Minister is aware of and I\u2019m not, and it might well be that this was discussed and debated at the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee. That was a conversation to which I was, alas, not privy. Well, that\u2019s not to say that I wasn\u2019t able to be or not allowed to\u2014that word \u201Cprivy\u201D being of course connected with \u201Cprivilege\u201D and other such relevant concepts. It\u2019s a concept we\u2019ve heard a bit about lately, actually.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EBut anyway, I don\u2019t wish to dwell on that because suffice to say that if that discussion is taking place at select committee and the value of this committee of the whole House stage is to sort of allow the Minister to explain how those have been arrived at, then that\u2019s useful for the record, particularly if there\u2019s interpretation of the legislation in the courts or if there is a push to change the law in the future. And it might be that that takes place by way of changing the thresholds, because of course when you have in primary legislation certain dollar figures, then they need to be changed in primary legislation unless there\u2019s some sort of regulation-making power mechanism whereby that could be changed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo to sort of understand as a starting point what we\u2019re putting in this primary legislation along those lines would be a helpful contribution, and I request that the Minister would make that for the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022 data-id=\u00224c1f25fa1e74444493e3f88f6c31d2d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c1f25fa1e74444493e3f88f6c31d2d8\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and to the Minister. Looking at Part 1 and the purpose of the bill\u2014I spoke on this at the earlier stages\u2014I\u2019m interested to see about improving transparency and business-to-business practices, and what other options the Minister or the ministry considered. I appreciate it may have been before she became the responsible Minister in this area, but is this the only mechanism that was considered? Also, around why the Minister thought this would be the best way of enabling members of the public and entities to have access to information about these business-to-business practices\u2014and what advice she sought and received from her officials around why this would help them make more informed choices and improve choices. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u00221b993b27ac954baea14b33092b605526\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b993b27ac954baea14b33092b605526\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK (National\u2014Kaipara ki Mahurangi):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I feel very much on a roll, and so\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222971e7eaa2c345fab670ca0a33f6f4c3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Just reminding both members that we are on Part 1 of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266a01d654f58411488f3f0bac69c7579\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. That\u2019s helpful guidance. If you could also let us know which bill we\u2019re debating, that would also probably be to my benefit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220893c50fa996445c95edb9802bc6559d\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re giving it away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e58a4fced16e4a78bc67b1fe56ace4fb\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I think the game is already given away, Ms Swarbrick. But, anyway, we\u2019ll see how long we can carry on the deception.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235a14903244c4f05ba9a3cd5ac9ea97e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Is that a challenge?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022051459410f7b4d74a9c6110813c50863\u0022\u003ECHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: I wouldn\u2019t wish you to take that too seriously, Mr Chair. Why start now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo just looking at the interpretation clause, clause 5\u2014within Part 1, you\u2019ll be pleased to know, of the Business Payment Practices Bill\u2014I see that the definition of \u201Cdirector\u201D is pretty extensive. That\u2019s helpful because it might be that we\u2019re talking about a company or an overseas company, in which case we want what\u2019s generally referred to as a director\u2014being a certain position in relation to those entities\u2014and in relation to a partnership, a partner, or a general partner of a limited partnership, and so forth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EBut I am quite intrigued by paragraph (f)\u2014the sixth sub-definition, as it must be\u2014whereby a director means \u201Cin relation to any other person, that person.\u201D So I suspect there\u2019s some deep and meaningful reason for that definition, which looks some combination of circular and otherwise opaque. I don\u2019t know, an opaque circle, I guess, but it just doesn\u2019t make much sense to me. I suspect for others reading the bill, they would experience the same level of opacity. So I wonder if the Minister can shed some light and other mixed metaphors on what is meant by that definition or that included definition of a director in relation to any other person, namely, \u201Cthat person.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EWhile she\u2019s at it\u2014and I sense she\u2019s very nearly ready to answer this question or perhaps one of these other very searching inquiries that Sam Uffindell and I have made so far\u2014in terms of \u201Centity\u201D, there are quite a few different kinds of entities that are included. So in the same way as the director definition is as quite full, so too is that of \u201Centity\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo matching those different definitions for possible definitions for director, we\u2019ve got a company, a corporation sole, a trust, the partnership, etc. But I wonder if the Minister and her advisers contemplated, at any point, a generic kind of description of entity such as a legal person, because I think that would probably cover all of these. She could have had, for example\u2014or her predecessor, in introducing the bill could have said\u2014a legal person which includes but not is not limited to, you know, and then go ahead and list all the ones that are indeed listed from (a) to (g). So that\u2019s enough for now. I look forward to the Minister\u2019s response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb7b39cd310b4429a6d2f0327076fe28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb7b39cd310b4429a6d2f0327076fe28\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Minister for Small Business):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair, and thank you to members for those enlightening questions regarding the Business Payment Practices Bill. First of all, I\u2019d just quickly like to thank the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee for their work on the bill. There were a number of changes made at select committee from members on both sides of the House, and I think some good changes were made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ELook, in general, I\u2019ll try and clump the questions. Timely payment is crucial for the financial health of any business, and especially New Zealand small businesses. It can be the difference between making a pay round or not when payments are not made. I\u2019ve heard from many small businesses that delays in receiving payments are really hurting their cash flow, and that increases stress and it also inhibits their business growth. Xero does some really good research in this space, and I would probably mention too that they view that larger companies in New Zealand use smaller businesses as a credit facility, and this is unacceptable. That is the main underlying policy, sort of, framework, if you want, that underpins this bill; that we want that transparency available so that smaller businesses who do survive from week to week at times have that ability to choose who they wish to do business with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo the bill requires entities with more than $33 million in revenue, and, as the addition at select committee, $10 million in third party expenditure to disclose information about their payment practices twice a year. And just to point out too that the Government needs to lead by example, and so the bill will apply to Government entities just as much as the private sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe key point I got from those questions was in relation to why the $33 million, and what constitutes sort of a large firm, why set the threshold at that point? Large firms are defined as all entities with greater than $33 million annual revenue. The revenue threshold is based on criteria for businesses considered to be large. According to the Financial Reporting Act 2013, the expenditure threshold ensures that the regime doesn\u2019t apply to firms that don\u2019t really have much purchasing power in the marketplace. This allows businesses to easily self-identify and applies to all corporate firms, and so it\u2019s likely to capture market participants that dominate the industry. I\u2019ll just point out that the Australian threshold is higher, I do acknowledge that. I think that reflects the fact that the businesses in Australia are bigger than those in New Zealand. If our threshold was set the same as Australia, we would capture in the vicinity around about 600 businesses, which would sort of undermine the whole purpose of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00224c203ca4060e4d0f9f9aedcbd9ee6238\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c203ca4060e4d0f9f9aedcbd9ee6238\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks, Mr Chair. I just want to pick up on that commentary from the Minister on the bill, and she made the assertion around larger business being at fault. But, secondly\u2014and probably the more important substantive issue which comes to the whole purpose of this bill\u2014she made an anecdotal comment about a lot of smaller businesses suffering from late payment. What evidence has she actually seen to support the introduction of this bill? Because every business will say if they didn\u2019t get paid on time, that will affect their cash flow, and that is as obvious as night follows day, or day follows night. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ccbcedbe75040e6a3f26db3c977dc7c\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Part 2, Part 2!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270804f73117a45f0ae3a0974811314d0\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: This is in reference to what she, the Minister, said, Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick. So what actual evidence\u2014because the Minister raised this issue\u2014has she got that says by putting in place an arrangement such as laid down in this bill, actually achieves the outcomes that she\u2019s desiring to achieve with this bill? She also mentioned in her speech about Australia, and she will be a very much aware, no doubt, that Australia put in place this arrangement two years ago and they\u2019re now reviewing it\u2014because, in cases, they\u2019ve found out that even after putting in arrangements similar to what is proposed in this bill, the outcome has actually led to slower payments from large businesses to smaller businesses in Australia. And that is why they\u2019re doing a formal review of it, because they are now starting to wonder whether in fact this is actually the right way to go about achieving a better outcome. But we\u2019ve slavishly picked up their\u2014what appears to be an overseas example, being two years out of date, and shoved it in at the very moment when they\u2019re reviewing how it started to work, and by reference also she\u2019s quoted\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223e400fe004d46e6a66416d9ff3f08d9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Bayly, you may have missed the fact we actually only on Part 1 here, so the ability to make wide-ranging speeches is rather limited. So please confine your comments to Part 1. I accept that you\u2019re actually reflecting on the Minister\u2019s comments. However, you have gone too wide\u2014back to Part 1 please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d88604fbb2c483ca473b41622c56a8f\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: OK. Thank you, Mr Chair. Well, I just hope the Minister will respond to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EOK, on a very specific point, my good colleague Mr Penk has been talking about entities. One of the big things that concerned us about this arrangement is that under \u201Centity means\u201D, clause 5(d), the incorporation, or the capture is probably a better word, of \u201Ca society or branch of a society registered through deemed to be registered under the Friendly Societies and Credit Unions Act 1982\u201D. Can the Minister just tell me why it was deemed so necessary that we want to capture friendly societies under this bill? Because if we\u2019re talking about normal trading arrangements, and that\u2019s what the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee actually focused on, because that was meant to be the intent of it, why on earth should a society or branch of a friendly society be captured? It would be very useful if I could have the Minister\u2019s response on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2a689e56a9e428cbabe04f14357f8bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2a689e56a9e428cbabe04f14357f8bc\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Very specifically, in Part 1, I just want to acknowledge the excellent contribution of my colleague Andrew Bayly, who has come roaring in\u2014always appreciated\u2014and also Chris Penk, who is about to leave the Chamber and asked many probing questions. I will continue with that, and put a question to the Minister around the definition of \u201Coverseas company\u201D in Part 1. I note that they\u2019ve been doing some tracked changes on this document and have crossed through, after \u201Coverseas company\u201D, the words \u201Chas the same meaning as in section 5(1) of the Financial Reporting Act 2013\u201D. I\u2019m curious as to why that was crossed out and replaced with \u201Cmeans a body corporate carrying on business in New Zealand that is incorporated outside New Zealand\u201D, and also curious in the definitions as to why we have decided to define the word \u201Clarge\u201D\u2014generally, quite a straightforward word to understand. I do see it over here in clause 9 and I\u2019m assuming it\u2019s related to companies that have in excess, was it $33 million, from memory. Interestingly, though, in clause 9, the $33 million has not been included in the definition, I\u2019m curious as to whether it would be appropriate if that was included in there. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00227e0d4d61800c47d8b9eb53ff0f028789\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e0d4d61800c47d8b9eb53ff0f028789\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m just giving the Minister a little bit of time to, hopefully, respond to both my question and my good colleague\u2019s question just then. This definition of \u201Ccarrying on a business\u201D that Mr Uffindell talks about\u2014it\u2019d be useful if the Minister could just perhaps elucidate what that means, because at a committee level we were concerned that we didn\u2019t inadvertently capture businesses that wouldn\u2019t normally be regarded as being trading entities in New Zealand. So perhaps the Minister can just help the committee in terms of defining what that means, and what her understanding of that term \u201Ccarrying on business in New Zealand\u201D, and whether that applies to a trading enterprise or non-trading enterprise, offshore subsidiary, a branch, etc. It\u2019d be very helpful if she could help us with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022 data-id=\u0022d1c1f22a25f44130823ed7927e3159d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d1c1f22a25f44130823ed7927e3159d9\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I wasn\u2019t expecting to get that call, but there we go. We just wanted to test a little bit further. We note that there are infringement fees associated with that, and we know that there\u2019s been a lot of talk about infringement bills\u2014it\u2019s easy to infringe, and poor businesses are taking more hits, more infringements\u2014but I\u2019m curious there as to better understand what an infringement fee means. It hasn\u2019t been that deeply specified; hasn\u2019t been defined very clearly. If I read from Part 1, \u201Cinfringement fee, in relation to an infringement offence, means the infringement fee for the offence specified in the regulations.\u201D So I\u2019m assuming there, Minister, that to get the infringement fee, you would then have to go from that to the regulation and look up what the specific fee is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022602f795c22a74ceeb4e9f342d75264f8\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s what it says.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022806e47157e14414da58502bf470fb76f\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for that excellent point there, Ms Swarbrick. I appreciate that\u2014I was coming to a come-to-Jesus moment myself, there, but I just wanted the Minister to clarify it. It could have also been useful\u2014I\u2019m wondering if the Minister\u2019s staff behind there ever considered a schedule which would have made it quite easy to have in there. I\u2019m not sure how many infringement notices there are, but for future reference, that could be quite handy and then you could have it all in the one space. And I\u2019m wondering too whether that is something that the Minister or the ministry had thought about or might even consider. It\u2019s something you could note down there, Minister, something to be included in the final piece of legislation. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u002241182a860b80469793ff75dd44bd3736\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002241182a860b80469793ff75dd44bd3736\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m just wanting to give the Minister every opportunity to stand up so I will yield at the earliest opportunity. Still looking at it\u2014OK, well, let\u2019s carry on. I note a reference to the definitions in the interpretation clause; the reference to the payment threshold test\u2014and this is quite a genuine point. In the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 363, I see that she has proposed, in clause 10 (1B)\u2014I know this is the next part, but I think it\u2019s relevant to this, what I\u2019m about to say\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022291e8995c56c45d895197f8cb7f51184\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! SOP 363?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237e88acd5a63494e9b6ca12fd41197ca\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f654b4b088384e61b605bdd2ed5ffdd4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not sure that\u2019s in Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eeccded6d59b470a9e6c1dea28db8396\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: I must have an old version.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec5e160344f5449da296dd18230a2d55\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Hang on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244a176a7556843318814389e8be7323f\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: But we have got a\u2014have I got the correct number?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ec083eac082480f8683d6cb28478d8a\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Have you got the older version there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe07616bdfce4225bbb87b928e6c46bd\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Maybe not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022177ce320a5894cea9377428bd7ed5104\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s been updated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e81dffcdea194ccf9b07e8836fe3188c\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Do you want to sit down and I help you?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022890440d3552643d8b9703844c24945f4\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Do you want to stand up and give a contribution?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022639c647e258a45d79cd0908384ee2f19\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Or I\u2019ll stand up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d2cd5c2cadc4870a0caece93b08b396\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I\u2019m just trying to clarify things for the committee. So the member was referring to clause 10?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc5a4e39f7ea42798bee59592024dea2\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, but it\u2019s 363, isn\u2019t it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228b06e3df12b413d89f227f8e1b7eef8\u0022\u003EMember\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s in under the SOP.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c2df3eec3724c409c845ed2df2adca7\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, as I said\u2014and the reason, as I was quite careful to say, in clause 10 in SOP 363, we\u2019ve got this proposed change to talk about both \u201Cinvoice\u201D and \u201Cpayment\u201D, and I am now wondering whether, in fact, coming back into Part 1 on which we were focused, where we talk about a \u201Cpayment threshold test\u201D in 8A\u2014and I\u2019m looking at officials here\u2014whether we might in fact actually also be thinking about both invoice and payment thresholds because there is a difference that is deliberately introduced in the SOP, and I\u2019m wondering whether in fact we should now replicate that in the definitional part of Part 1 of this bill. It would be interesting to see whether the officials have a view on that. In the meantime you might have the opportunity to respond to some of our other questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb3df38b97b141a991d6f5a07efc0219\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb3df38b97b141a991d6f5a07efc0219\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Minister for Small Business):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. So there\u2019s a number of points being made. The question around the meaning of carrying on business; that is set out in the Companies Act 1993. So, for the purpose of that Part, reference to an overseas company carrying on business in New Zealand includes a reference to the overseas company it lists under provisions (a) and (b) 10 different specific areas that can be found in the Companies Act. So that\u2019s laid out, that question, in relation to the meaning of \u201Ccarrying on business\u201D. It specifies there\u2014I\u2019m not going to read it out; it would take ages\u2014so it\u2019s specified already in legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIn terms of the next question. The one you just mentioned now was the Government Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) clarifies the wording of clause 10(2)\u2014I\u2019m not sure that is in Part 1, but I will answer it. I think we should probably be doing the bill as a whole, but never mind. To make it clear that if reporting entities need to report on how many invoices they pay late, they should also be able to set disputed invoices aside from this count, and so that\u2019s what clause 10(2) of the SOP does\u2014it enables them to be reported on separately\u2014and the proposed wording change will remove the uncertainty as to the legal interpretation of this clause, but it doesn\u2019t change its purpose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe other point that I think the member made was it also enables a definition of \u201Cinvoice\u201D to be included in the regulations. Businesses did tell us that they want a clear definition of \u201Cinvoice\u201D to be included so that they would be sure what is in and what is effectively out. That definition may well need to adapt and change over time, and therefore the best way forward would be to put that in the regulations. The provision will sit in clause 10, which requires payment practice information to be defined within those regulations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI did have another point that I had out. It may have been\u2014no, I\u2019ve lost it, sorry, there was a lot in there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb96b31e960a4642b825c74d80cfa6a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb96b31e960a4642b825c74d80cfa6a2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I take the next call, just to clarify for the member that clause 10 is in Part 2 so the member can\u2014and any member in fact can prosecute that but when we get to Part 2. So, Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u0022c16c8e8d163147cb8e8b32aaeb09bede\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c16c8e8d163147cb8e8b32aaeb09bede\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E Obviously, this is an incredibly narrow part of the legislation, and I can hear the enthusiasm from members, particularly of the Opposition, to contextualise this part within other parts of the legislation. So with your guidance, Madam Chair, and for the sake of the efficacy and coherence of the debate in the Chamber tonight, I\u2019m wondering if perhaps we could test again for consensus. I seek leave to see the debate taken as one part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022691d977b38d344e3b940cea98d93a26a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022691d977b38d344e3b940cea98d93a26a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Does the member wish to take a point of order and seek leave?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u0022c57af5b758634a7cbd3eddfb9fe8eb00\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c57af5b758634a7cbd3eddfb9fe8eb00\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Chair. I seek leave for this debate on this bill to be taken as one part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002236188bd01cc044b4aefde67c17d8746d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236188bd01cc044b4aefde67c17d8746d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave has been sought for that purpose. Is there any objection. There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022e79a7405ac6542a9a230078d1a0c52fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e79a7405ac6542a9a230078d1a0c52fb\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E OK. Thank you, Madam Chair. Unfortunately, the Minister got the wrong end of the stick. Let me put it another way: where we talk about payment threshold test, given her Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 363, I wonder if, in fact, that should also read \u201Cinvoice or payment threshold test\u201D; that was my point, whether the definition needed to change in Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229f037be68ea4d7a8c2a1ecb41a453dc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! Which clause is the member speaking to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226921eaf6f00546bd9cb3c47cdaa2f3f1\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022747d57fdf44a4cfc9b9e02102ad40c86\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Which clause in SOP 363 is the member speaking to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b989c54dc3b48519ba615381ca67d33\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m talking to clause 10(1), but because of that, it gives rise to a definitional issue\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7e006cdb8b94b8fb394d178ce97604c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Order! The member is speaking to Part 1 of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9ecb4c0b4a8492aab1f357097229a3b\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: OK. As long as I can come back to it\u2014yup.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u00225fed42f757c94568a5446010847228ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225fed42f757c94568a5446010847228ce\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000801\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225405732ddf3c4696a709fd168607fcdc\u0022\u003EPart 2  Obligations, register, and Registrar\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u00227dc89bcd5c694e649af8cfd4382dcbce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227dc89bcd5c694e649af8cfd4382dcbce\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 2. This is the debate on clauses 8 to 24: obligations, register, and registrar. The question is that Part 2 stand part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd06484b371a4839b79f24dfcd770e31\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd06484b371a4839b79f24dfcd770e31\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Maybe I\u2019ll have another opportunity. So, with the indulgence of Madam Chair\u2014thank you very much\u2014Supplementary Order Paper 363 introduces the concept of \u201Cor payments\u201D after \u201Cinvoices\u201D. So if you stand back and think about it\u2014and this is a serious issue. I just wondered whether we\u2019ve missed something in the drafting. You have an invoice, and then you have payments related to those invoices. So the Minister chose to include \u201Cor payments\u201D in clause 10(1B), and I\u2019m just wondering whether, in fact, that means we\u2019ve now got this overlapping sort of definition or separate definition, because invoices total payments. There\u2019s no difference in terms of the monetary amount. One precedes the other one, and you issue the invoice and it subsequently gets paid. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI\u2019m just wondering whether, in fact, as a result of that, maybe there is a requirement to change the definition in Part 1 to reflect that they are used interchangeably, those two terms, and whether we need to build that into the bill. That was my point, and so I\u2019m looking at the officials in terms of the drafting, at the back here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EOK, Madam Chair. Whilst\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d771c8adcdfd4ce7a2dc2bde89abe8be\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just remind the committee that I\u2019ve done this earlier today, though I think it will be helpful. In a committee stage, if a member wants to seek a call, they\u2019ve got to stand up and seek it, because if there\u2019s a silence and a vacuum, I can only assume that the committee has finished with that part of the bill and begin to deliberate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232e5f337f8094a3cb3305b663fa3e12d\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022709a73e6268f4e799a855ee2f4b11160\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, you\u2019re so welcome. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb922219f2204734a4de8395f6319205\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m just hoping that two other people are going to contribute, like \u201CMs Swarbrook\u201D\u2014\u201CSmallbrook\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a00b687ed2434ba894f6bfa4f7c3d689\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Swarbrick\u2014Swarbrick. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222504453efb6d4682afe0a05a27fb751c\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Swarbrick\u2014very good. I want to return now to clause 9C. This concerns the issue of subsidiaries. \u201CIf an entity to which section 8 applies has 1 or more subsidiaries, a disclosure must\u2014(a) contain the payment practices information for the disclosure period\u2014(i) for\u2014(A) the entity and each subsidiary; or (B) the group as a whole;\u201D. So this gives rise to where, as long as a subsidiary meets the threshold of $33\u00A0million, or $10 million in trade payments\u2014if I can use that term\u2014it must disclose its payment terms. Then a group must disclose its payment terms, and, obviously, it will if it\u2019s got at least one subsidiary that meets the threshold of $33 million. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ECan I just ask the Minister why did she think it was necessary for each and every subsidiary and then the group to disclose it, because the sum parts of the subsidiaries\u2014if we are trying to identify entities that are slow-paying, then the entity figure will be a mathematical calculation of all the sum of its subsidiaries. So why was it also necessary to have the group if that was so chosen that we should do both the group and the subsidiaries? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022 data-id=\u002236f55aa81e6344af963df47532d8a50a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236f55aa81e6344af963df47532d8a50a\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Looking at clause 9D, around certain subsidiaries making disclosures, I\u2019m just wondering what advice the Minister has sought around whether that is going to add any additional complexity or paperwork. I\u2019m assuming it would. And perhaps it would have made sense for the parent company, in so far as the parent company is domiciled in New Zealand, to be making all of the reports on behalf of all of the companies that fall under them. I mean, you take a company out there\u2014they\u2019re part of a wider organisation that meets the large company threshold that\u2019s cared for by this bill\u2014they\u2019ve got a lot of subsidiaries throughout the country, and then they are all reporting independently; whether it would have made more sense just to have that all from the parent, and what consideration the Minister\u2019s officials put to that. And also, what consideration was given to the impositions that this would have, not only on businesses out there in the business-to-business space but also on the relevant Government agencies who are having to collate and consider that information? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u002265de4a420be942778c4ac143d2f14142\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265de4a420be942778c4ac143d2f14142\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Minister for Small Business):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. So in relation to clause 9A, payment threshold, payment is in fact wider than invoice, and some payments will not actually involve an invoice, so there\u2019s no need to expressly refer to invoice in that payment threshold test\u2014they\u2019re already included.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIn clause 10 of Part 2, it sets out the meaning of \u201Cpayment practices information\u201D. In fact, that will be set out in far more detail in those regulations. The point of that is that this is necessary because the regime would almost certainly need to be updated over time. Clause 10 does set out some important parameters, and I think this gets to the heart of it: that part invoices\u2014for example, instalments\u2014are each to be treated as separate invoices. Some payments do not need to be reported on. So things like salaries, wages, taxes, fees, rent, utilities charges, and even local body fees\u2014they would not be needing to be reported on. So that\u2019s the difference there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIt also sets out that any count of late invoices need not include invoices in dispute, and these are to be treated separately because, in fact, if there is potentially a dispute that the goods or the service wasn\u2019t supplied in time, it\u2019s hard to find fault in that specific case and therefore the payment may not actually be late.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI do understand that the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee wanted this provision because they didn\u2019t think that the \u201Creporting entity\u201D should need to include invoices that are in dispute, and count of late invoices, because that wouldn\u2019t be fair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIn relation to subsidiaries that are wrapped up in the wider entities report, subsidiaries are in the wider entities report unless they meet the threshold of their own account\u2014so unless they reached that $33 million, or, secondly, if they choose to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EAnd I think there was one other point that I wanted to raise. The bill as introduced would have captured entities that have a large revenue but make very few payments to third parties. So this this is the point around why to include a payment threshold. So this would include firms like consultancies and even software developers. These firms, they don\u2019t have a lot of purchasing power in the New Zealand economy, but they also don\u2019t buy much in from third-party suppliers. They\u2019re not the type of large purchasers that the bill seeks to target, and it\u2019s for that reason that the select committee recommended including a payment threshold in the bill. That would mean that the regime only applies to entities with third-party expenditure of $10 million or more. So that additional requirement was a recommendation from the select committee and has now been adopted as part of the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00226d2bfbe599464189ac2e4faba5fa2040\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d2bfbe599464189ac2e4faba5fa2040\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Minister, for that response; it was helpful. In her Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 363\u2014again, I\u2019m just referring to clause 10(1B), right at the end, under clause 10(1B)(f), she said, any \u201Cgoods or services\u201D and inserted the new words \u201Cor types of transactions\u201D specified by the regulations. It might be useful just to understand what she means by her SOP in terms of types of transactions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe second point: the Minister referred earlier to a definition of \u201Cinvoice\u201D. This is now included under her SOP as clause 10(1C), \u201CRegulations may define an invoice for the purposes of this section\u201D. So I suppose my question is: why are we defining \u201Cinvoice\u201D by way of regulation? Presumably in tax it\u2019s a fairly clear definition of what an invoice is, under tax law, under companies law. So I realise it was a Supplementary Order Paper that this change is being inserted in, but I don\u2019t know why we couldn\u2019t just put it in the bill itself and remove any lack of clarity what the definition of an invoice is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo, again, I\u2019m looking at officials. Why have you gone down this route of using regulations? Because, for many people, relying on a Minister to pass regulations is not a very good thing if you\u2019re wanting clarity and you\u2019re going to have to put this in place quickly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022bbb08888018a4d4d9713daf51e8695cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bbb08888018a4d4d9713daf51e8695cd\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you very much, Madam Chair. It\u2019s a pleasure to be able to ask a few questions in regards to the Business Payment Practices Bill. And I want to go to clause 19, actually, of Part 2 of this bill, which is in regards to the business payment practices register. And clause 19 is in regards to the purpose of that register. In particular, 19(b) which outlines the purpose, is to help them make informed choices about whether to engage with those entities. And I guess what that\u2014well, my questions in regards to that point are as follows: in section 2.4 of the departmental disclosure statement, it acknowledges that the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) has liaised with the Australian officials. I\u2019m interested, in particular, around whether this aspect around the register, and having that register in the list of the entities on that register, actually was substantiated in regards to consumers or those wanting more information actually being able to look out for those businesses and make more informed decisions or not. So was that MBIE that substantiate the benefit of 19(b)? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe other aspect in regards to that is related to clause 20, which sits\u2014surprising for those watching at home\u2014after 19 in regards to the hierarchy of the clause numbers. It talks about 20(c), which is \u201Cits registered address\u201D. And my question in regards to this is if, say, hypothetically one was looking on the register and looking out for a business and, say, for example, you lived in Cambridge in the Waikato\u2014choose a place in the world\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273ffc037e55f4a679d893c37b6c27d5c\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Pukekohe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ae1584d0f8746e098e10d783da4d95c\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: Pukekohe. You could say Pukekohe. Let\u2019s use an example of a business, and let\u2019s say you\u2019re in Cambridge, Mr Bayly, and you\u2019re looking up a business, and its registered address is in Pukekohe but it\u2019s actually operating in Cambridge. Is that is going to actually enable 19(b), which is to help make them inform choices? Because if you can\u2019t necessarily locate the business that you\u2019re after\u2014you know, there\u2019s a lot of businesses called similar names; so that\u2019s not really the aspect\u2014how are we going to get around that, and why was there not consideration in regards to the contents of the register actually including its physical address versus its registered address? The registered address obviously can be, in some circumstances, quite different. And, I guess more broadly in regards to that, I\u2019m thinking about organisations that have multiple entities within the same group, and they\u2019re all called the same thing, and they\u2019re all in different towns, but they all do operate individualised payment processes, because they\u2019re owneroperator businesses operating under the same name and maybe under the same registered address, but they have a different location. So you sort of get a sense, potentially, of the confusion that may arise through someone trying to get information on whether their business is actually one that they want to\u2014as the legislation says\u2014engage with those entities or not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo those are the two questions I\u2019ve got in regards to those aspects of the clause. And if it wasn\u2019t the Australians, I think it was noted in the regulatory impact statement in regards to this bill. It did say that they did do a bit of a horizon scan\u2014I\u2019m looking at page\u00A027 of that\u2014in both the UK and the EU. Again, just from officials, was there any other substantiation, actually, that this register in any other jurisdictions in the world does actually lead to outcomes where people are able to make more informed decisions? Thank you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022 data-id=\u002202b850da626f47adbeecdb3ae5fdfb61\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202b850da626f47adbeecdb3ae5fdfb61\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Good to follow on from the excellent contribution there from my colleague Simon Watts. He talked about clauses 19 and 20. I\u2019d just like to ask a quick question for the Minister around clause 19, because I remember speaking about this at the last stage. It\u2019s noted here in clause 19 \u201CThe purpose of the register is to enable members of the public and entities\u2014(a) to access information about certain business-to-business payment practices \u2026 and (b) to help them make informed choices\u201D. And I note that the information has to be submitted twice a year\u2014so every six months\u2014and the intention there is for that to be about allowing informed decisions and choices. But I\u2019d just like to test that a little bit, because that\u2019s not necessarily real-time data because it may be 5\u00BD months down the track and then how useful is the register in that instance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EWhat consideration was given to what other options are out there? Did they actually go out to businesses and say, \u201CHey, look, we\u2019ve got this idea for\u201D\u2014I\u2019ll get the actual name\u2014\u201Ca business payment practices register, and twice a year it\u2019ll be updated. It\u2019ll be an excellent source. You can go in there and it\u2019ll allow you to make informed choices.\u201D? And if they did do that, what was the feedback from businesses? I mean, just from my limited knowledge and experience, I would hazard a guess that businesses would have come back and said, \u201CYou\u2019re lumping us with this big admin burden and I\u2019m not actually sure it is going to give us informed choices because it is potentially going to be 5\u00BD months down the track.\u201D, which is what\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd735fd7fcec473aa92428f22d2ed367\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s what the Australians found.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022098b36c2c8a1447c93b2bfd8f6a808da\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014thank you, Mr Bayly\u2014they have found in Australia. And also there are other very cheap means in which you can do company profile searches and credit check searches, and I\u2019m just wanting to weigh up what consideration was given around that, if any. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022a76d92a0d6084903b2d3c27051badacf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a76d92a0d6084903b2d3c27051badacf\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah, I\u2019m just hoping the Minister\u2019s going to respond to those two excellent contributions. Just continuing the contribution from Mr Watts, he identified the various identifying information. What\u2019s unclear in the bill is if you were to seek information, albeit maybe 5\u00BD months old, as Mr Uffindell has identified, will it be possible to get the information if you perhaps might only have a couple of these items? What are the criteria? Because it doesn\u2019t say you have to have all or just one or whatever. For businesses who don\u2019t want to, who are slow payers, they may be deliberate in the way that they\u2019re describing themselves. So what would be useful is to understand what is expected, whether a person would have to come up with a number of those criteria or identifiers or just one or two. So that\u2019s one point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI\u2019m still very keen to get an understanding about why we can\u2019t hard code a definition of \u201Can invoice\u201D in this bill rather than relying on regulations. And talking about regulations, in clause 15, \u201CEntities must notify Registrar of error or omission\u201D, the new wording says \u201CThis section applies if an entity becomes aware of an error or omission in a disclosure that involves a substantial departure from the requirements of this Act or the regulations relating to that disclosure.\u201D And it then goes on in subclause 3, \u201CIn this section, substantial departure from the requirements includes (a) if regulations specify permitted departures, any departure that is greater than an amount or a percentage specified in the regulations\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo if I\u2019m a business owner and I\u2019m out there thinking, \u201CHoly Toledo, this thing\u2019s coming barrelling down because the Labour Government wants to put more impositions on me just to make my life as a small-business owner a little bit more difficult\u2014a little bit more difficult. When I can get a $35 credit check from someone tomorrow that\u2019s perfectly up to date anyway, I\u2019ve got to come up with this information.\u201D What in the dickens is going to be in the regulations? And the only person that\u2019ll know that is the Minister, because it\u2019s only the Minister that signs off on the regulations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s where we all tremble. We tremble at the thought of what might be in the regulations to define what an invoice is, because it\u2019s an exceptional piece of work to do. And, secondly, what is a percentage variation or whatever it may be? I don\u2019t know. Maybe the Minister can provide us with some insights on what her intention might be if she can rush this bill through the House and put it through the House before the election. I might just stop on that note so we can hear from the Minister, hopefully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u00225785dc725e004e6aa76f22d7f026a783\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225785dc725e004e6aa76f22d7f026a783\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Minister for Small Business):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. How could I resist not rising to respond to those questions? Thank you for that member\u2019s questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ENow, the point that was raised\u2014more than once, I think, in that cluster of questions\u2014was the question around why not put the definition of \u201Cinvoice\u201D into the bill itself. Why should that be in the regulations? It\u2019s because that definition may well need to adapt or change over time. We would not be wanting to have to go back, and it would be best, therefore, in the regulations so that you have the ability to do that. It would sit alongside the actual reporting requirements, which might also evolve over time. That is the reason why.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EAmongst all of those other questions, I also had one regarding registered address: why, if a business had a different address. Registered address is, in fact, not searchable under the register. If members refer to new clause 20A of Supplementary Order Paper 363, it specifies there what the searchable items are under the register, and registered address is not searchable in that space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIn terms of types of transactions, under clause 10, this enables regulations to exclude things like foreign currency transactions from falling under payment practices information. That was the question in relation to types of transactions in clause 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe point has also been made a number of times that this is going to increase the compliance or the red tape for small businesses. It\u2019s definitely not the feedback that I\u2019ve received when travelling around the country, doing a number of business breakfasts across the country. I guess I\u2019d like to point out too in that space that a credit check is quite different to a business that pays on time. You may well have a business that stacks up on all accounts after having a credit check, but they may also be really lousy at paying their bills on time. So I guess there\u2019s quite a distinct difference. To get back to the point that Xero makes in their research, those bigger businesses that can make interest on those funds remaining with them for the longest amount of time are, effectively, using smaller businesses in New Zealand as a credit facility and paying on the very last day, when the bill is due, or sometimes even late.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EHaving a transparency register enables those small businesses to check and see who pays their bills faster. And, in fact, some of those companies who pay their bills faster may have lousy credit checks. The point is that they\u2019re not interrelated directly, and that information is valuable to those small businesses\u2014those small traders who want to know who pays their bills quickly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI thank the member also for his question about what\u2019s in the regulations. Now, there\u2019s been really good consultation. There\u2019s a full consultation document that circulated in October of last year, and there\u2019s been consultation with a wide range of stakeholders to get feedback on where they think things would work and where they think they might not work. Those will be formulated and will be ready for the member to take a look at in the fullness of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022422c26c3ea5a40cdad738ec3fa597519\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022422c26c3ea5a40cdad738ec3fa597519\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022160991d49dc74febb73c46cb3a0a4e5b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022160991d49dc74febb73c46cb3a0a4e5b\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Just going back to my definition of an invoice, maybe I can just help the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022522026c005354778957c3fc6f57b026c\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: How kind of you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c5915968e514962ae056da2f8b29467\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Took me just a couple of minutes, Mr Bennett. \u201CAn invoice is an itemised commercial document that records the products or services delivered to a customer, the total amount due, and the preferred payment method. The seller need to send in a paper or electronic invoice to the customer \u2026 The invoice can be paid in one go or instalments, depending upon the payment terms that were agreed upon.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ETo me, that\u2019s a pretty standard definition of an invoice. I still can\u2019t understand why we have to go to regulations to define it. Unless there\u2019s something coming down the route, and I can\u2019t think of it, whether it\u2019s electronic, but this does cover electronic methods. I don\u2019t know what difference it might be in invoices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ERight. I just want to move on now to clause 23 because we\u2019ve got lots to cover in this part. The registrar\u2019s function is to \u201Cestablish and maintain the register;\u201D to \u201Creceive information that entities are required to disclose the Act;\u201D (c) \u201Cperform or exercise functions and powers conferred on the Registrar relating to measures of compliance enforcement\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo a big issue\u2014and I think many people would be worried about it and it does go back to Mr Uffindell\u2019s rather serious comment\u2014is the bill provides for payment information be provided every six months. Can\u2019t be longer; it\u2019s actually set in stone that it must be every six months. That means that there will be a time when the information is considerably out of date\u2014up to just under six months, obviously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe issue that the committee is concerned itself with is that for a very cheap sum, literally $35, anyone can ring up a credit agency\u2014and we have four large established credit agencies\u2014and get an immediate and up-to-date, timely, real-time credit assessment of businesses. One of the things I\u2019m concerned about\u2014because this will be the Minister\u2019s jurisdiction\u2014is: is it the intent of the Government, in passing this bill, that the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) will set up its own system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBecause when we spoke to some of those existing commercial providers, they said to establish a register such as this\u2014as set out in 23\u2014would cost anything between $3\u00A0million and $5 million. Then there\u2019s an ongoing cost, and I think when we asked MBIE officials, I think there was an assessment of maybe 10 to 20 people\u2014I\u2019m not quite sure; I may be misquoting that, but I\u2019m going from memory\u2014or of that order. So not an insignificant sum of money to hire those people, keep them employed, and also keep upto-date technical and software changes, which we all know from very successful Government roll-outs of procurement and IT systems, how good we are doing that on budget and within time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo is it the intention of the Government that MBIE will establish its own IT system rather than relying on a third-party provider to meet the requirements of clause 23 of the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002207ab881d18d846fb83c1162d621ae524\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207ab881d18d846fb83c1162d621ae524\u0022\u003ESIMON WATTS (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Silence is a blessing sometimes, isn\u2019t it? In that context, I just wanted to clarify the answer that the Minister for Small Business gave, just in regards to my question regarding clause 20(c) around registered address. I believe I heard the Minister say that that was not a searchable field in the database. If that is the case, and without any guidance\u2014whether that is what I heard correctly or not\u2014how practical is it going to be to actually go into the register and look for that little shop in Cambridge that we referred to before, Andrew Bayly, that\u2019s got its registered address in Pukekohe, even though that\u2019s irrelevant. If you can\u2019t find its address, then things start to become quite challenging in order to identify the business from whom you want to obtain information which is 5\u00BD months out of date, which is run by a team of 20 people for $5 million and the rest. So if the Minister could just clarify, is that what she said? Even a wave of the hand or sort of a head nod, anything like that\u2014no? OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022948d7f9c41b242918d48ee8b95b618d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022948d7f9c41b242918d48ee8b95b618d6\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m just giving the Minister a little bit of time to, hopefully, answer my rather serious question\u2014because it did take up quite a considerable amount of time of the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee\u2014about what sort of system will be running this platform and whether it\u2019s managed or operated by the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE), or whether in fact it\u2019s by someone else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EWhat I now want to talk about is clause 24, because this states the \u201CRegistrar\u2019s power to delegate; (1) The Registrar may, either generally or particularly, delegate functions and powers under this Act to any employee of the public service (within the meaning of the Public Service Act 2020)\u201D. That\u2019s a bit of a worrying thing. Does that preclude, then\u2014maybe this is another question for the Minister\u2014that a third-party provider couldn\u2019t provide these functions under contract to MBIE because it\u2019s precluded under clause 24 of the bill? So, hopefully, I might get a response to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb863476d4c749f3a319efd971fce651\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb863476d4c749f3a319efd971fce651\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Minister for Small Business):\u003C/span\u003E The Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) had, as far as I\u2019m aware, given no advice to the committee in terms of costs or the cost of sitting up the register, but I can tell the member that MBIE is looking at the most cost effective option. I would also note that MBIE has a considerable amount of experience in administering public registers. They currently register 23 already, and given the experience they do in doing this work already, they are well placed to ensure maximum value for the system that is put in place. The other question that keeps coming up about how do you find a business in\u2014where was it? Cambridge\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b11882c0a14f46fea59d0ec9e167ce3e\u0022\u003EAndrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Cambridge, but with Pukekohe\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217ddb341a8f74d769f92dfe599e5ff9f\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014or Pukekohe. How do you search and find a business in Cambridge or Pukekohe? So the purpose of the register would be for those bigger firms\u2014in New Zealand, I can find the exact number but it\u2019s those fewer ones that have over $33 million in revenue. So those bigger firms are the ones that will be listed, and the purpose of listing those big firms that have a far more substantial overturn, far more substantial revenue each year, is so that there\u2019s transparency in terms of how quickly they pay their bills. And the value comes to the business in Pukekohe or to the business in Cambridge, that is then able to look on that register and find the bigger business that they are trading with and to determine\u2014if they have a choice in providers, they can have greater choice amongst those listed on the register to then determine if they would prefer to do business with one who, in fact, might be slightly further away but does indeed always pay their bills on time. That, in fact, is the value of the register.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6635611b76748d0b34c06b918fe11dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6635611b76748d0b34c06b918fe11dd\u0022\u003EGLEN BENNETT (Labour\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a82595f1337341b89e4b99ef9952ac8a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a82595f1337341b89e4b99ef9952ac8a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to Part 2 set out on Supplementary Order Paper 363 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b31b81e9551842d393613e0b0b8c83fb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ca0e2794cbf243d1b76cbbc981330bcd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 75\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 62; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 9; Te Paati M\u0101ori 2; Kerekere; Whaitiri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 34; ACT New Zealand 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002270fe1c1b905a4dc5b126ca428c9c5520\u0022\u003EPart 3  Compliance, enforcement, and offences\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u002286b5f6245caa46dc881bf3b248c7669e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286b5f6245caa46dc881bf3b248c7669e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 3. This is the debate on clauses 27 to 45, \u201CCompliance, enforcement, and offences.\u201D The question is that Part 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00223e4cce120459416a80f75fd28414e697\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e4cce120459416a80f75fd28414e697\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I note the Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) of the Minister extended the date for \u201CReview of compliance notice\u201D in clause 29(2A), \u201CThe application for review must be received by the registrar no later than 10\u201D\u2014and the new insertion is\u2014\u201Cworking days\u201D, effectively, two weeks, \u201Cafter the date on which the notice was served.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo, on one side of the coin, the Minister has chosen to increase the time period for an application, but on the second, in clause 30A, her SOP reduces the appeal against review decisions to be lodged at\u2014what it states under 30A(2), \u201CThe appeal must be lodged within\u201D\u2014and this what it says, existing terminology\u2014\u201C14 days after the date on which the notice referred to in section 30(4) was served\u201D and has reduced that to 10; not 10\u00A0working days, just down to 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo I suppose my first question is\u2014I can understand the 10 working days, because that is a useful metric. Why has the Minister chosen to reduce from 14 days to 10 days, and, even if she were to do that, why haven\u2019t we used the term working days? Because all that\u2019s happened is that we\u2019ve reduced it quite significantly in terms of days. That means a week and a half, and if there\u2019s a long weekend in between, that becomes impractical, and I would have thought that that was actually a bit of an issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022 data-id=\u00225501ba8bece54f84a839b22af99afd88\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225501ba8bece54f84a839b22af99afd88\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. A question, now, on clause 25, \u201CRegistrar may monitor and investigate compliance with Act\u201D, and reading through this one does get the concern that it is somewhat arbitrary, but, more importantly, is going to take up a lot of resources\u2014not only of the registrars and the person that the agency will have to employ to fulfil those requirements or those duties that the registrar has power over but also for the businesses to then make sure that they are fulfilling the tasks that are set on to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003ESo if you look at clause 25(1), you see that the registrar has the power to \u201C(a) to ascertain whether information provided to the Registrar is correct: (b) ascertain whether a person is complying, or has complied, with this Act:\u201D and then to \u201C(c) ascertain whether the Registrar should exercise any of the Registrar\u2019s powers under this Act:\u201D, and \u201C(d) to detect offences against this Act.\u201D The powers there\u2014there are quite a lot of them that are listed, you know: to require a person, to confirm information is correct. So presumably that means the registrar will have to employ a set of people. They will then go out to these large companies and say, \u201CCan you please confirm this information is correct?\u201D and then require that company to produce documents which will then get sent to the registrar. Just try and think through how you would operationalise this. You know, then they\u2019ve got to go away and inspect them all and review them and then give that feedback back. And, you know, they\u2019ll take copies of the documents, they\u2019ve got the ability to take possession and retain them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EWhat I can see here, and I\u2019m wanting to get a bit of feedback from the Minister or ministry officials on this, is: what is the cost imposition on this? Not only to the registrar\u2014how big of a workload do they see them taking on? Has there been any study done on what sort of burden this would place on the registrar or any consideration to the time and money loss to businesses who have to fulfil all of these requirements: answering these inquiries, producing the documents, sending the documents, answering queries, going backwards and forwards? What sort of analysis has been done around how often the registrar will require information to be collected or reviewed or copies sent in and the general cost that this could have, and also the consideration around lost productivity as a result of filling out information for a registrar. Thank you, Minister. Thank you, officials.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1ac672862ab48b291b9973fdb1bebb3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1ac672862ab48b291b9973fdb1bebb3\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I thought I might talk on that excellent Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) 365, which happens to be in my name! I can\u2019t claim to be perfect because I\u2019ve got to acknowledge the help of the House in preparing this. But in the spirit of trying to improve this bill\u2014the Opposition is committed to this bill, albeit that we don\u2019t agree with the bill\u2014what my SOP does seek to do is to make sure that if this bill is pushed through, and no doubt it will be by Labour as it commands a majority in the House\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a350c0ee718b47e09b507ee25c7e0881\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: At the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022347cb1c78e7147ae9ccf4f2cf8ec2492\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CAt the moment\u201D, as my good colleague says.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f6ca7ec897540718cd52eff3bca775c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member is speaking to Part 4 of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f388975089a4c259e9c3bb2c32203a0\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I thought we\u2019re on new clause 48A.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253c60bb799f54d71929f078bd0c3da7b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask the member to come back to Part 3?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9e5588828ed496db0ecc8dc3991030e\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, that\u2019s right. I see we\u2019re one over. OK. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224049ee9ddc45447b89b9e551e47b9006\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s getting ahead of us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022919f8cc60de64c0e906e3ff8e9e05269\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Slightly ahead. I thought I was very careful about that but I wasn\u2019t. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo what I\u2019d like to talk about now is the pecuniary penalty for contraventions of compliance notice or involvement in a contravention. In clause 39, there\u2019s a whole stack of contraventions and why a person might be deemed to be subject to pecuniary penalty. For instance, if they have \u201C(2)(a) aided, abetted, counselled, or procured any other person to contravene the requirement; or (b) induced any other person, whether by threats or promises or otherwise \u2026 or (c) been in any way, directly or indirectly, knowingly concerned in, or party to, the contravention\u201D\u2014gee this is a long list\u2014\u201C(d) conspired with any other person to contravene\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a15afea3594549c08e5db63dc6fc946a\u0022\u003EBarbara Kuriger\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t run out of breath!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293bc75836224476c823f378f1f8a7857\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Then, Holy Toledo! What happens is we make our six-monthly report and we realise that we\u2019ve made a mistake. Under subclause (3)(a) in the case of an individual, we\u2019re subject to a $50,000 fine or, in any other case, $500,000 for each act or omission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo one of the things about this is, first of all, there was some debate about the level of these penalties, because it does introduce the issue of proportionality. If an entity ends up saying that they think that they meet their payments at 49 days, as opposed to the reality being 50, then they\u2019re potentially up for $500,000. So why does the Minister believe that these fines are proportionate? Because inevitably we find in legislation going through we see the same sort of figures being driven through; albeit for differing types of severity. It\u2019s fine that the Minister might say, \u201CWell, $500,000 is the maximum.\u201D Well, actually, it is the maximum, but it\u2019s a high bar to start to work back towards what the ultimate fine might be for an entity, or even $50,000 for an individual.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI suppose it gives rise to the issue around, given the level of the severity of these payments and whether in fact it actually has caused any loss to a particular entity, because if it hasn\u2019t actually resulted in loss, i.e., a firm has entered into an agreement with a company because it thought it would pay within a certain prescribed period of time and it hasn\u2019t made that payment within one day of it or one day extra, has a loss actually occurred? I would have thought that was a pretty important issue in determining what a proportionate fine is for any person who contravenes this requirement to publish or provide the data. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo maybe we\u2019ll just start off with that point and then we can come back to a wider issue as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf57cae50e2946929eaf4b51ed7d0cc8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf57cae50e2946929eaf4b51ed7d0cc8\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Minister for Small Business):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. So, in terms of compliance, the bill\u2019s penalties in Part 3 are really consistent with those used in other regulatory regimes and were vetted by the Ministry of Justice\u2019s penalties vetting team, in fact, for that very purpose. The infringement penalties are not large when taken into consideration that they would apply to some of New Zealand\u2019s largest companies. And I have had several people ask me what the compliance approach will be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI can\u2019t speak in terms of hypothetical situations, but I can say that what the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment has advised me is that the primary focus in this area will always be on communication and also on education, and there won\u2019t be a compliance holiday as such. But equally we can expect the registrar to show a level of good faith and also common sense to see how these compliance tools would be used. In relation to a pecuniary penalty, I think that it\u2019s really important to note that it only follows a compliance notice. So it\u2019s the end of the line in terms of notifications and that level is obviously up to the court to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe next point I\u2019ll come to is I do note this is actually in the title and commencement clauses, but I will touch on it anyway because the question was raised in relation to the transitional period being extended from six to 10 months. So it was clear that the select committee wanted a six-month transitional period, but it was looking unlikely that the bill\u2019s regulations would be gazetted immediately after the bill passes. Because it\u2019s not possible to guarantee that, we believed it was the most prudent thing to do to extend that transitional period. And by doing that, it will ensure that the regulations are gazetted up to four months after the bill passes. But it also gives effect to the select committee\u2019s intent that there would be that six-month implementation period. And so we\u2019re not compromising that by the fact that the regulations have taken a slightly longer time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo that point around the six to 10 months was raised in conjunction with another point, and I don\u2019t quite see how they\u2019re related but I will speak to them anyway. So it was the point of 14 calendar days and 10 working days, which is included in the Supplementary Order Paper. So what that does is it just standardises. So 14 calendar days are the same as 10 working days. By making them all the same, it removes confusion by having one term for both. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EAnd the final point I\u2019ll make was in relation to sort of compliance and extra work and that sort of being, I guess, non-productive and causing extra red tape. What I would say is that the more we move to an e-invoicing system in New Zealand, the more we get not only big businesses but small businesses using cloud services, using digitisation. We know that that in fact is a significant driver of increasing productivity in our economy. We know that the more that small businesses use those platforms, the more that they\u2019re able to use those ways of digitising their finances. That, in fact, improves our productivity. And interestingly enough, it also frees them up to have a bit of better work life balance so that they know things are ticking over regularly. That\u2019s definitely the reports we see back from businesses like MYOB, from Xero, that we\u2019re wanting to drive a system where we can do all of these things in a digital platform format. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo I think that this bill incentivises businesses to be using this. I think also the other really important incentive that I haven\u2019t mentioned\u2014and while I touch on a few things more than once, I haven\u2019t mentioned this\u2014is that it will incentivise those big businesses to be proactive in paying. And that\u2019s what we\u2019re looking for. We\u2019re wanting to drive that change so that if there is a bill that needs to be paid, it\u2019s more likely to be done if it\u2019s made public, knowing that that particular company is a good payer and they\u2019ve got a good reputation and they can be proud of that reputation, and more people will want to do business with them if they have that reputation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8f37e5471c641ae815128f547cfbd4d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8f37e5471c641ae815128f547cfbd4d\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E Lucky me. Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Thank you, Minister, I appreciate you taking a five-minute call there to run through the list of questions this side of the Chamber have been putting to you. That is definitely an improvement from what we saw earlier today, so it\u2019s appreciated from our members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EYou mentioned there around productivity and how the move to e-invoicing will improve productivity. Yeah, it absolutely will. That\u2019s a really positive thing and a better work-life balance\u2014absolutely a good thing. Just a quick question about that. Why would we then undermine those advances by burdening companies and officials or people who could be doing productive stuff in the economy? Why would we then burden them with a regime like this that gives them information that goes into a system that is out of date and probably won\u2019t get used for the specific purposes that your side of the Chamber has been saying that this is why it\u2019s such a fantastic thing to have? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00220cf363e4f4d24470b1bc707b28d6eac6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220cf363e4f4d24470b1bc707b28d6eac6\u0022\u003EANDREW BAYLY (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah, thank you for the response, Minister. I\u2019m reminded, when I heard those soothing words, that the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment will be supportive and do educational things. I\u2019m reminded about when we did the health and safety reforms, and we had two key aspects in the health and safety reforms, which we worked closely with the then CEO about having both an educational aspect\u2014and a big focus on that\u2014and alongside that, the enforcement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EOf course, the preference was for as much educational focus as possible to support and encourage better health and safety practices across businesses. Now, four CEOs later, you could argue that we\u2019ve ended up with an agency that seems overly fixated on prosecutions and is probably paying less attention to education, and that\u2019s where I am concerned. Whilst it sounds all very nice that these fines and all that sort of stuff and the approach and that the ministry will be supportive; actually, in many years to come, that often is not the case. Some people forget and certainly don\u2019t go back and listen to the debate or the speech by the Minister in the chair at the time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo I suppose the issue with these fines and the compliance, the pecuniary penalties, has got to be read and understood in connection to clause 15, which I did highlight earlier on, which is saying that the regulations will specify at what point an error or omission has occurred and at which point a company or a CEO or an owner, whatever, has to come and say to the registrar, \u201CLook, I made a mistake.\u201D There\u2019s an inevitable consequence of that, because that\u2019s what clause 39 is about. If it\u2019s deliberate or whatever\u2014and that\u2019s obviously an interpretation issue\u2014and if there\u2019s a different interpretation why the company actually ended up with an incorrect period than what they nominated in their return, then potentially they could be up for a $50,000 fine individually or $500,000 for the entity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo one of the big concerns we\u2019ve always had is about this reliance on regulations, because the Minister says it\u2019s out for consultation. I know most of the business associations actually oppose this bill because they don\u2019t think it\u2019s necessary. So without the clarification of the regulations, but we know on the other side the hard coding around the pecuniary penalties, then there\u2019s a real issue with that. What\u2019s disappointing in the bill is there\u2019s no graduation of different types of infringements that may lead to a penalty; it\u2019s just hard coded, those amounts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo what further assurance can the Minister give that the type of errors or omissions\u2014whether genuine or not\u2014covered in clause 15 are and not going to lead to the situation where an individual is up for a $50,000 fine or in fact a company or an entity is up for a $500,000 fine? Because those are not insubstantial amounts of money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EProgress to be reported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229d63e4620e5043a281d1f5d434644e8a\u0022\u003EReport of Committee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224e12ce266f6c4e51a3954e6f5cd77a6c\u0022\u003EReport of Committee of the whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022 data-id=\u0022de5eff3e923c4e23ac229fbf07a4e327\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de5eff3e923c4e23ac229fbf07a4e327\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Hon Jacqui Dean)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, the committee has considered the Grocery Industry Competition Bill and reports it with amendment. The committee has considered the Charities Amendment Bill and reports it with amendment. The committee has considered the Worker Protection (Migrant and Other Employees) Bill and reports it with amendment. The committee has also considered the Business Payment Practices Bill and reports progress. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000904\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a25943b-cb3b-49c3-bd10-74316fae17f1\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002294dc4466485c452bbb440f680d15b3d2\u0022\u003EAmended Answers to Oral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002262a905c490e84cfa95b0df81675c4ee1\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u0022deec9b7a5fbf48d2b0c3b00db9ad8a64\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022deec9b7a5fbf48d2b0c3b00db9ad8a64\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to make a personal statement to correct an answer to an oral question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226119cb1faa74ed8af6730685fef6206\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There is none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000909\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249cae9be32a744078e4377dc6d146d53\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: In response to question No. 7 this afternoon, 20\u00A0June\u00A02023, I stated that I was advised that the equity adjuster is used in two hospitals: Auckland and Middlemore. However, I have since been advised that the equity adjuster is used in Auckland and Greenlane hospitals. Due to outsourcing arrangements, patients within the Auckland district are sometimes treated outside of these two hospitals. Since answering the question, I have also been advised that the equity adjuster was also in the process of being rolled out across a small number of subspecialties in the wider northern region.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225fc9081d96a74427899c81f4c5b84c78\u0022\u003EPersonal Explanations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002277f4ca25e3624b998794ae127792f570\u0022\u003EAnnual Review Debate\u2014Correction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00223e112faed6664bff82c4794f6f9ec0f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e112faed6664bff82c4794f6f9ec0f8\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Minister for Oceans and Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I seek leave to make a personal statement to correct an answer to a question in the annual review debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002210b120c3c7f04d7985042136b4359f59\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000913\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210b120c3c7f04d7985042136b4359f59\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8e4c6643c7c4d49b2964273dc59da25\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to a question about cameras on fishing boats, I said that $68 million was a fixed price with Spark. In fact, that is the total funding of the programme over four years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbff7c31e4b34a708849f6a3bb9ec7d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbff7c31e4b34a708849f6a3bb9ec7d6\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The House stands adjourned until 2 p.m. tomorrow. Good evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202306206afa28c9f5d74d608b2a1435b5764aab000916\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 9.59 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"